#career-chat

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

green vector
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Ah, okay. Checked out your artstation page from your profile. I can see the work cut out for me 😄 .

plucky hatch
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Us designers get it easy, it's you lot who have to make all our ideas work 😂

dense plank
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A lot of entry level jobs will generally advertise with a degree requirement, but what they don't tell you and isn't necessarily obvious looking in from the outside, is that if you have an impressive portfolio no one will care if you have a degree. (For a programmer creating a single game yourself that's really well architected and demonstrates your knowledge, will usually suffice, and unlike artists you'll only need that for your first job)

plucky hatch
sour mist
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lmfao

small zealot
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My beta visuals are mannequins running around slapping themselves silly 😜.

deep mural
modern crown
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This is nice to hear as I am trying to make the switch at 28, atm i am a web dev

chrome bone
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thats something I have seen as well. Working on a more organic indie dev style course.. we will see how it goes.

chrome bone
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I am working on a couple different indie centric courses ( I planned a 1 year intensive already in general ue centric game dev)

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but im not convinced the conventional model or even the cram it in intensive model is the way to go.

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Entry level - fundamentals.. learn a bit about everything in general terms.. make a dead simple game ideally with a full game loop and a simple UI.. that will take you MILES ahead of most schools in terms of practical skills.

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but from there.. for most people I think its pick a door and spend 6-12 months really learning that part of the engine and the associated skills.

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(not everyone however.. but most people)

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in an organic sense its often what happens although unguided in the indie dev path.

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its an open field atm.. the demand is there.. and there arent enough devs to go around!

silk peak
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I recommend using time tracking services as this has helped me greatly to improve my time management.

chrome bone
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You guys are well in the age bracket. I didnt switch till i was 35 years old or so

silk peak
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I'm 26

chrome bone
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@silk peak good luck man! Anything you need please bug me

silk peak
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Okay, thank you

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@chrome bone How did break into the field originally?

chrome bone
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Modding and business development

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@silk peak

plucky hatch
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*this is not promotion in any way, just thought this was a good deal and wanted to share it
So I was on here a couple of days ago asking about how hard it is to start programming, and the wonderful people here helped convince me to start learning now, so I decided to check Udemy after some advice from some developers I know, and I found this really good deal, 20 bucks for a 110 dollar course, so some advice, if any of you are trying to get started learning c++, now is the time, I heard this was a great course and 20 bucks is a steal, but it only lasts another few hrs so i recommend getting it now
Course: https://www.udemy.com/course/unreal-engine-the-ultimate-game-developer-course/

Udemy
Unreal Engine C++ The Ultimate Game Developer Course

Learn how to develop, code and package a complete video game in Unreal Engine

shut token
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It's not really a "steal". It's what the actual course price is.

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Even so, $20 is higher than what they usually do. Typically it's $10. Maybe inflation? idk, haven't used Udemy in awhile.

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Most of the content is a roll of the dice.

carmine osprey
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You know you can just delete your cookies and poof the price is low again

oblique ice
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that sun temple tutorial

carmine osprey
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(below: before clearing cookies)

unknown.png
sour mist
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holy shit

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23265 students

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23k people bought this

chilly sundial
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23k people got royally scammed

sour mist
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guys. I'm quitting gamedev to make courses.

chilly sundial
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That just makes me sad

sour mist
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what the hell

unknown.png
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342k purchases from this guy

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I don't know if to be upset or if to try too

chilly sundial
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Both? But actually make a good course. Win win

sour mist
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XD

brave forge
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Is it actually a bad course?

sour mist
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I guess not.

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ratings are good

brave forge
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Udemy can be hit or miss, but I have a decent one for aws from there

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Depends on tutor really

sour mist
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but like, probably 90% of the content here has easy tutorials on youtube

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but it's up to people how they prefer to learn I guess

brave forge
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If you are starting out, there's something to be said for a guided path, rather than separate disjointed tutorials

sour mist
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sure yea

sour mist
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how is it that this is literally a udemy function..

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what kind of scammy website

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._.

brave forge
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Yeah they would be done by the ACCC in Australia for illegal marketing

plucky hatch
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oh i didnt know it was some sort of gimmick

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but i did hear that course is rlly good from a few other ppl so hopefully it wasnt a waste

pure kettle
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To be fair, it worked. Your recommendation post above being one of the proof.

craggy nacelle
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Tbh I think it's great for students

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You get incredibly good value for what you spend on Udemy... many of these courses would never go for this cheap

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Unfortunately it sucks for the instructors unless they get like 300k students because they make next to no money from them otherwise

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But yeah the price trickery is scummy but you can just take advantage of it as a student :P

chrome bone
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its a tough call.. I am all for democratizing education

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but at the same time if you leave that up to education boards the courses become incredibly stagnant and out of date

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so free education that doesn't make sense is kind of pointless.

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at the other end of the spectrum.. 1 year intensives for 40k-60k per year... hard to justify.

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at least.. I think they are hard to justify.. targeted towards high paying foreign students looking for visas (at least in canada)

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The alternative now.. I guess.. is things like tutorial and udemy for better or worse.

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(which I personally vastly perfer but im not 20 trying to learn something useful for the first time in my life)

plucky hatch
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I don't know much about the education system in Canada, but it sounds great, In the U.S. your most likely going to be paying off college debt for years and years, my dad never ended up paying his off, does Canada have any downfalls in its education system?

round radish
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It's proximity to the arctic circle?

craggy nacelle
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Pretty sure the debt-ridden education system is another good ol' USA speciality

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So it's not just Canada, it's... pretty much everywhere else except the US :P

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It's almost as if the entire country is designed in a certain way lol

plucky hatch
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capitalism is a fine system for the leaders and rich

round radish
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It's not capitalism that's the problem, it's democracy.

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And the fact that the humans are shit.

green vector
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The only way I find a way to get out of bed after seeing these kind of stuff is by justifying that for every 10-20 million people like them, there is at least one Roosendaal or so.

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Plus why would I pay some guy when I can just go look at the source code and learn everything I need?

round radish
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Because time is money.

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If some guy can save you time by helping you understand, he has saved you money.

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It depends if the cost of the guy (or girl) is more or less expensive than your time.

pure kettle
green vector
# pure kettle You can go über solo at the cost of time and limitation of your own abilities. ...

Except that I'm not. I'm already standing on the shoulders of giants(Unreal, Blender etc)

@round radish You are absolutely right. But I think a guy or girl who would help us won't try to trick us into buying his/her course.

I'm not trying to provke anyone(sorry if it came out that way). Over the years what I found was these quick tutorials and stuff just do far more harm in terms of wasting time than spending a bit more time initially learning from the source of truth.

round radish
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Looking at the source code is going to mean nothing to you if you aren't already familiar with the engine, though.

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What does it matter if you can read the methods for UActorComponent when you don't know what an actor or component is?

pure kettle
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Unless you're having godlike ability to sight read source code and instantly recognizing it on first try

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Which then by all means

green vector
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Well, they do have documentation as well.

round radish
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UE's codebase is large enough that finding the right entry point for that isn't possible.

pure kettle
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||the docs for UE is a little bit shitty, comprising of autogen pages||

round radish
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// Information

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Actual UE comment

green vector
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Plus it's not like I'm saying one can get started doing without lots of effort. But what I'm saying is it's well worth it.

round radish
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Looking at the source is definitely worth it, yes, but not as a first step.

pure kettle
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Unless you also have the ability to decode eldritch lore as well

Sight reading source code without prior context is not easy

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Not saying it's impossible, if you have the miracle ability

green vector
dense plank
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Ahh I see someone mentioned that already. Never mind! 🙂

hollow cipher
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So this is a bit embarrassing to ask, but like, are there specific jobs to find game art jobs? Ive been sort of fumbling since I finished uni. I know I need to keep working on my portfolio, but i dont really know where I should be looking.

steel creek
hollow cipher
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3d, prop/environment art

steel creek
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then you should use the constraints: game prop artist and/or game environment artist

hollow cipher
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This is very useful, thank you

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hmm, sadly it seems theres no openings atm, especially not anywhere near my portion of the country

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a pity.

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but thank you again

chilly sundial
hollow cipher
plucky hatch
lilac walrus
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CA in general is a massive hub, there is pretty much guaranteed to be jobs open, especially in-and-around LA

hollow cipher
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unfortunately due to personal/financial reasons I cant move from wherre I am. My best bet is jobs near the birmingham area, with leamington spa being 2 hrs away by train

plucky hatch
hollow cipher
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nope

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uk

lilac walrus
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ah right - the link was Irvine

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well the UK is also one of the biggest development hubs

plucky hatch
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You can get to Manchester in 2 hours can't you from bham?

hollow cipher
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I have a meeting with a recruiitment agency on the 25th.

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manchester to where i am is 3 hrs

lilac walrus
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I would expect to have to relocate for work, but there's usually a couple of hundred openings in the UK at any time

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much of the industry is on the south coast

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but there's also odds and ends in the midlands / north

plucky hatch
hollow cipher
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nothing going rn for a junior prop/environ artist from what i've seen. I assume i still count as a junior for that stuff

lilac walrus
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I abandoned the UK industry when Brexit hit, yeah

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either way, places to look include GamesJobsDirect, Hitmarker, GamesIndustry.biz, and everyone's favourite bottom of the barrel, LinkedIn

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breaking into the industry in the UK is exceptionally difficult and takes a lot of time

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far too many graduates, far too few positions - it used to be normal for people to work out in eastern Europe or whatever for a few years before returning, but that's not an option any more

plucky hatch
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No, it's pretty hard now 😬

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I was lucky to get EU citizenship a few years ago on a fast track (just 3 years)

hollow cipher
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I had a tutor role at the local college since sep, but that employment is coming to a close, as there was issues with the position and miscommunication on what I would be doing

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I plan to go back and focus on updating my portfolio when it finishes, but jobhunting is something to always be vigilant for

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it was a nice cv filler at least

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shows im hirable

serene crystal
oblique ice
chrome bone
hollow cipher
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😅

chrome bone
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Hahaha

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Well those can often turn into jobs as well!

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Tencent and netease are hiring hundreds atm

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They sre both opening large new studios

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Netflix studios are hiring. Forget the studio name

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In my neck of the woods.. offworld industries (my former start-up), new world interactive

hollow cipher
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Oh, really

chrome bone
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Oh man.. phoeinix studios (not sure if they do remote)

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Black bird interactive

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Go direct to their websites

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Recruiters I am meh on.. but i think its because ive paid them so much money over the years I am resentful

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🤣🤣🤣🤣

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@hollow cipher what did you tutor?

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Because for my money.. if i was an artist i woukd be ampung up my tech art / blueprint skills

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Amping

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Instant pay rise for that

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And a nice gateway to learning some basic c++

green oyster
chrome bone
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Also good choice yep

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Harder for uk though as they require higher salary

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Outsourcers tighter margins generally

hollow cipher
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then they wanted me to teach media with cameras and stuff

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and game design

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I could do some of what they needed, but there was little support for me as a new hire, as I was immediately made course director

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and I had no experience writing a curriculum, or teaching whatsoever

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so I will be leaving the position on the 21st

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On the plus side, it means I've got an example that im hirable for my skills on my CV

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😎

hollow cipher
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thank you for the recommendations though

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ill make sure to check them often

hollow cipher
steel creek
# hollow cipher had a look, no junior positions at any. shame

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." -- I am not saying apply to positions screaming "senior" but you can't ever know who is on the otherside and what they really need/want until you try. I would make a list of 10 places (to start) that have listings asking for slightly above your range and just send them resumes anyway. Zero effort other than mailing or emailing.

hollow cipher
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fair. I really need to up my portfolio game. lot of older projects on there still

green oyster
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Only keep the absolute best, quality over quantity

deep mural
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what is a realistic college degree I should go for UE5 programming

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like level

livid glacier
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I need time to prepare for a software engineer interview, and I need as long as possible. But I am worried that this will have a negative impact, and the time range that the recruiter gives me is 0-38 days. any weekday. It's a big company, I'm new grad and I'm worried I'm not proficient enough. So I'm going to keep doing leetcode for this time ..When should I choose for an interview?

chrome bone
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Wait till you are ready

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Because failing spectacularly.. less likely to get a future interview

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However.. i think its just fine to express your fear because most people underestimate their abilities

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The other half overestimate

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😆😆😆😆😆😆

serene crystal
deep mural
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how will people want to intern me

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well I live in Michigan, the people who I have talked to told me I need atleast freshman year of college finished before I could even get one (obviously they are in college so might be bias)

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alright

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also for a ue5 interview, do exactly do they make you do usually? I am assuming they make you make some type of project, are they normally in base C++?

shut token
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Nothing set in stone. It varies so greatly.

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One one company does, another won't.

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Tech interviews are complete garbage.

deep mural
shut token
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Not specifically, because seriously, it is so wide of a gap

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"If you inherit from this class and call this method, what gets printed?"
up to things like:
"Implement X data structure from scratch in C". But the job is in Javascript.
Both could literally be at the same company, just different interviewer.

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In UE terms: "What is the role of an Actor in the engine?" to things like "How would you build a custom mesh and not use the one provided by Epic?".

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It really is dumb like that.

deep mural
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i see

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thank you for your input

shut token
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Just roll the dice and hope you get a sensible interviewer

chrome bone
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we gave every programmer the same test

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the interview after the test would vary

deep mural
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well...

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if I don't go to college how could I move out asap

chrome bone
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get a job?

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I moved out at 15 and took welfare.. where there is a will.. there is a way

deep mural
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I thought this through in the opposite direction way to hard

pure kettle
# deep mural I thought this through in the opposite direction way to hard

https://youtu.be/KxGRhd_iWuE

YouTube
Ryuujin131
Matsuoka Shuzo [松岡修造 ] - あきらめかけているあなた (NEVER GIVE UP!!) [English]

1/1/18 EDIT: Shuzo Matsuoka is a retired Japanese professional tennis player who does motivational speeches like this as a career and is a well known meme in the Japanese internets. HE IS NOT A JAPANESE FISHERMAN WHO ALWAYS FARMS ASIATIC CLAMS IN -10 DEGREE CELSIUS WEATHER AS SOCIAL MEDIA IS SUGGESTING. Sorry to burst some motivational bubbles b...

▶ Play video
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I know it's a meme, but still a good one

chrome bone
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Indeed!

deep mural
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How much do you guys make per year? Obviously the Google search results say something like 100k average, but someone I was talking to said it's actually much lower than that. Mostly talking about ue5 programming here.

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Also I'm not really sure if this info should be really private so sorry if this is inappropriate

brave forge
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Depends on region, # years experience, and actual job role.

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It varies wildly

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A little old, but probably the closest indication you can get of what to expect

pure kettle
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I'd emphasize more on region, because $7200/year might not much for people in the US, but can be a lot to handle by people in third world developing countries

deep mural
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I'd imagine 70k in the us would be near poverty

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But I've never been an adult so

brave forge
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Sounds like you are in for some rough surprises. There's lots of people on less than that

deep mural
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I'd hope id be able to use my life instead of just "getting by" y'know?

pure kettle
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My current daytime job (unrelated to gamedev at all) is still around $3500 anually, and that's enough for me to pay the bills (but tbh not enough for leisure needs or additional fees)

deep mural
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Also I'd hope to never wonder what my next meal is gonna be when I move out

deep mural
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Along as I didn't literally waste money

pure kettle
# deep mural Now that you mention it annually 70k/yearly is alot

If relative to Indonesian buying powers perspective, which is what I had, yes, $70K/year is so high to reach.

So yeah, region matters, and basic logistical cost in developed countries could be way higher. Hence why for something like wages, researching on the region you're (about to) living in is important

deep mural
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Alright

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Thanks for the advice

half sundial
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Hi, I've been trying UE and I am really enthousiastic about a lot of things. I want to learn and try almost everything, but I think that doesn't increase my chances on getting a career at a gamestudio. Does anyone have any tips (or maybe a blog) on what skills would be most useful to get a job at a gamestudio? So maybe I can focus on one aspect. Excluding C++ 😉

brave forge
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what skills would be most useful to get a job at a gamestudio
Depends entirely on what kind of role you are interested in. Theres many different roles/career paths involved in making a game.

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One universal piece of advice though is, take projects through to some level of completion for your portfolio

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It's too easy to start something, get bored, move to another project, repeat. Having less quantity but more finished/polished items is better when it comes to reviewing candidates for roles

oblique ice
foggy vault
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Is it good idea to practice LeetCode and interview question for the sake of getting jobs in game development ? Right now i can hardly solve Easy and can't see my self solve these question in the very near future.

brave forge
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Just before the interview? Yeah can be helpful to jump through the recruitment hoops. In terms of day to day programming, generally they don't represent what you'll work on in realistic scenarios. If you have fun with it, do it. If not, build stuff instead. You learn more about system design, what it takes to go from prototype to working project, etc

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That's probably the biggest problem with them for me. They miss a huge portion of the job, which is designing complete solutions, or integrating with what's already there. Instead they focus just on algorithms and coding. Which are important, but its only a portion, and most programmers will never write a sorting algorithm in production

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But yes, they are helpful to drill before going to interviews, as unfortunately that's the common interview process

brave forge
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Because the book is so popular you'll almost never run into those problems exactly as they are, but you'll see similar-ish problems and they often use similar approaches to solve them

foggy vault
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These Leet-code and interview questions in general make me feel so stupid and shame.

brave forge
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A lot of the time it's just decomposing the problem and recognising what CS principal it's leaning on. Commonly it's graph theory. I once saw a Facebook one which was talking about flicking light switches on and off, and it was just a wordy way of obscuring that it was binary counting.

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That's one of the benefits of them, it helps ground some cs concepts/theory into actual coding problems but, yeah, without some of that background it can be challenging

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Larger companies often have them just as part of the process.

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HFT firms! They are the worst. Thought I'd do a 7 hour test before even talking to me. Yeah sure, I'll just take a day off work to do some bs for you before I even know what the job is

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Never walked away quicker

foggy vault
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i will try the book cracking the coding interview and will try my best for sake of pass the idiots filter 🙂

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i have just checked the "cracking the coding interview " pdf i can't see how it's better than grinding leetcode , there is a big different between understand data structure and implement these into the solutions, the book explain theory and than just give u question, dunno maybe ii'm wrong.

brave forge
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No book covers the entire cs curriculum. I said I hear it's a kick start on how to breakdown the questions.

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True. But typically they rely on a good grounding in graph theory, algorithms such as sorting, branch and bound, etc etc, and then they wrap all that up in a way that's deliberately obtuse to trip you up

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My experience was that they are easier to pass straight after algorithms 101, 201, than after a year of real work. They rely on the academic side while ignoring the practical side of the job, as we've said, no-one writes sorting algorithms (except for the 0.01% that do std libraries)

broken yacht
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For people how have had multiple jobs would you says it gets easier the more jobs you have had ? Kinda like fast food jobs?

pastel estuary
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for me its been mainly networking and putting myself out there on social media/community platforms that gotten me loads of jobs.

broken yacht
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Got it thanks for the info.

plucky hatch
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I am kinda experienced project manager (18 years in software development, also I know coding, can code but I am far from expert). Note: I have not been in gaming (except that I did 2 small 2d games), as my main focus before was business software. Since I will be hiring 2-3 programmers (game developers in unreal engine), what is your opinion how to hire good game developer, what would you look for first?

pure kettle
# plucky hatch I am kinda experienced project manager (18 years in software development, also I...

I'm far from being actually experienced, but I run a (mostly) solo project. Though if I'm about to hire full-time developers to assemble a team, first thing I'd look for is whether they really want to pursue the career of gamedev (aka passion), and then the other things like portfolio, practical test, and whatnot.

Though I think what to look for first can very dependant on what to expect from local talent in your region (if you're not much hiring people overseas).

But then again, I'm far from having decades worth of track record. It's mainly what I thought as (currently) solo dev, planning to expand into a team.

foggy vault
plucky hatch
# pure kettle I'm far from being actually experienced, but I run a (mostly) solo project. Thou...

thanks. I think in team there has to be one really good senior programmer, at least one. And smaller tasks can be handled to less experienced (skilled) developer. Of course if you have more really good developers, than its better. I know when I was making a game for iOS, one programmer could not solve simple thing, I waited I think for about a month. Than one programmer from Ukraine took over and he solved it in literally 2 mins.

languid wraith
round radish
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"There's really very little difference." video done.

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😛

serene crystal
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One has a funny little symbol and the other one also has a funny little symbol

modern crown
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difference? spelling lol

craggy nacelle
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Apparently this is the current fad in content consumption. People send me TikToks which you can't even skim because it doesn't give you an option to do so 🤦‍♂️

deep mural
craggy nacelle
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Well I have yet to see one where you could lol

deep mural
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You have do use your fingers and scroll left and right

craggy nacelle
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I guess it's something but they would still be better as text most of them time

round radish
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Or just not use TikTok. Probably the better option.

craggy nacelle
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Yeah pretty much. Seeing recommendations from security folks saying you really should not, and if you do, do not use the device for anything else

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I don't use it myself, but sometimes look at stuff people send me

round radish
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TikTok is quite literally Chinese spyware that spies on you about a thousand times more than the next most spywary app.

deep mural
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Hate when china steals my nuclear bomb codes from TikTok

round radish
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Funny story about nuclear bomb codes.

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The people who originally started using them in the US, back in the day, were so against using any kind of password to protect their systems, the password was set to 00000000 or something.

deep mural
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#history

round radish
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I think that was norad. I may be mistaken.

shrewd geyser
craggy nacelle
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I don't know if that's actually a bad password for it... who would think to even try 00000000

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lol

shrewd geyser
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"He reported that officials at Strategic Air Command resisted the installation of PALs, fearing that they would unnecessarily slow down or prevent a nuclear response in an emergency situation. When JFK ordered the installation of PALs, Strategic Air Command complied but set the code on all of the locks to all zeroes."

round radish
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6iW-8xPw3k

YouTube
bvontob
Spaceballs 12345

A scene from the movie "Spaceballs" (MGM, 1987). I use it to educate people to choose better "combinations" aka passwords. The scene has been slightly edited (shortened) to just include the parts necessary to stress that point. It's thus believed that the use of this copyrighted material qualifies as "fair use" under the Copyright Act of 1976, 1...

▶ Play video
shrewd geyser
woeful iron
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this is very career chat indeed

brave forge
round radish
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Hah.

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Not quite as bad, but someone working for our government left a load of cds in a taxi containing personal the personal data of millions of people.

shrewd geyser
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Youtube Video with C++ Tips -> People with Short Attention Spam -> Tiktok Videos -> Security on Tiktok Videos -> Nuclear Bombs -> Weak password in the 60's for Nucler Bombs....

Ok... I see how we got here...

brave forge
round radish
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Lol

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Let's hope nobody who does those things has a career in game development!

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(See, it's totally back on topic!)

fluid basin
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[Education] Hey! If you have basic Unreal Engine knowledge, experience with C++, and you are interested in becoming a game developer in 6 months - let's chat!

woeful iron
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Is this some bootcamp type stuff?

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what is the difference between having unreal and c++ knowledge and being a game developer

lilac walrus
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I'm also not sure what the [Eductation] bit has to do with anything?

woeful iron
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Guess they're trying to educate people?

round radish
woeful iron
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I know, but if you have knowledge in these 2 fields, you could be considered a game developer

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depending on your definition

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didn't say it was a requirement

round radish
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Well, I hvae lots of UE knowledge and experience with c++ and am employed related to both of these things and I'm not a game developer.

woeful iron
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but you could be

round radish
#

Well, you asked what's the difference between having UE/c++ knowledge and being a game developer. One is a skillset, the other is an occupation. They are not necessarily connected.

woeful iron
#

you're reading this too literally but ok

round radish
#

You could also say that a "game developer" is somebody who has more than passing knowledge in how to create full games. Somebody with knowledge about unreal may know, for example, only how to make blueprints or create animations/some sort of asset, but not the entire concept to release pipeline.

deep mural
pure kettle
#

Ultimately it's a rather sussy wussy advert as she didn't state what institute she's representing from.

woeful iron
brave forge
#

That's a very specific and geographically spread list

pastel estuary
#

waves at Kaos

flat yarrow
#

hi everybody ! Im in love with ue5, ive made some projects on it but never in the "game industry", i worked more for TV and commercial, just for the money.. Two years ago i atended a game design school for a year and before that i worked as a movie director on my documentaries and fiction movies in workshops in schools for example.
I would really love to join an independant studio team as an unreal engine generalist or digital cinematographer. But i'm having a hard time knowing if that position really exists or if i just need to specialize in dev for ex (where i see lots of positions but wonder how many years of learning i would need to be able to reach a minimum requirement, even though i understand some of it already).. Thanks a lot for your advices, i'm based in France and i would love to work remote as well if possible..

steel creek
woeful iron
#

there is no #school-recruiting though tbh

lilac walrus
#

true enough

royal lintel
#

@plucky hatch "experience shipping a game" at least in the AAA world doesn't mean you threw something up on a storefront. It means you've been through established processes at a sizeable studio in the last few months of a game's release, which involves way more than just throwing something up on steam. It's about understanding how issues get triaged close to release, what a bug bar and ZBR is, how to prioritize your own work when deadlines are looming. For studios targeting console platforms it also usually involves understanding requirements around console storefronts and cert.
If all it meant was "you threw $100 at steam to put an asset flip on the store" then it wouldn't be a requirement in the first place.
A small/indie team might want something different out of such a requirement, but it'd still be asking more than simply throwing some files on a storefront.

plucky hatch
#

that wasn't my question though

#

i was asking why go for itch instead of steam

#

seems like cutting yourself into a corner

royal lintel
#

Because itch.io is free, it was just an example.

#

Neither in isolation are going to fulfill that requirement. It's not about the storefront, it's about the process leading up to it.

plucky hatch
#

Well we're insane so we're going the passion project into job route for all that matters

royal lintel
#

I mean, as was mentioned multiple times it's not usually relevant for any sort of junior position. Expecting an entry-level position to have shipping experience is ridiculous.

plucky hatch
#

Forming our own knowledge and shipping our own stuff, sales allowing

plucky hatch
royal lintel
#

if it's an entry level position why would they

#

I'd expect entry level to maybe have heard about some basics about shipping a title and what happens during that time, but I wouldn't expect them to have actually been through that. If they had (maybe because they came from a QA role) then it's certainly a plus, but given that most studios have very different processes it shouldn't matter that much.

plucky hatch
#

I thought they handled a bit of that too

#

Like source control, patching, version control etc

royal lintel
#

sure, but that's still not what I'm talking about when I say "experience shipping a game"
yes, a role is expected to know what their job is

#

I expect a junior devops guy to know how to setup a build pipeline. I don't expect them to have been through a central bug triage process in the last month of shipping a AAA title.

plucky hatch
#

Is there any docs on the matter you were mentioning before?

royal lintel
#

Which?

plucky hatch
#

bug triage, bug bar, zbr etc

tired mason
#

So in essence junior should show they know how to do the thing. You gain the experience needed through that and that would lead you to higher positions. In reality I’m just interested in working on something I would play and shipping that thing because I’ve heard things change a lot throughout the process and especially before going live

plucky hatch
#

like proper shipping and devops

royal lintel
#

A lot of it is production/program management terms and it varies heavily from studio to studio.

tired mason
#

Does game dev use agile?

plucky hatch
#

so it's all built in house? or is there some general guideline

royal lintel
#

depends on the studio

#

as much as I hate to say it again, depends on the studio for both

#

Again, not something I'd really expect a junior role to know much about except maybe in passing (unless they're trying to get into a production/PM role).

plucky hatch
#

that's one thing I never understood, even small indie studios seem to have been born with knowledge when it comes to internal management, tasking, pipelines etc

#

I know most of them are founded by people leaving bigger studios to go solo but that knowledge had to start somewhere

royal lintel
#

For a new indie team I'd expect many of them just figure it out as they go. Or someone has prior experience and establishes those processes.

plucky hatch
#

yeah that's what I thought

tired mason
#

I think that has a lot to do with people having already worked junior positions. Or maybe I should say the indie studios I know of that had success usually had people who knew what to do anyway

royal lintel
#

Indie dev is much more fluid anyway - many won't adhere to strict processes

plucky hatch
#

just wing it with trial and error until you find a process that works

tired mason
plucky hatch
#

some things though I'd just be afraid to "wing"

#

like handling security or making sure no leftover files or dev stuff (even dev console) are still in the cooked build

tired mason
#

I assume the worse that can happen, given you’ve planned things right, is you lose some money (ideally money that you didn’t borrow from a bank)

plucky hatch
#

I've seen ue indie games that had the dev console shipped

tired mason
plucky hatch
#

I guess

#

still not a good look

tired mason
#

I guess this is the point of what siliex was saying, these are things a senior would know to look for

royal lintel
#

yup, just going through the process of shipping a game to the end will at least expose you to some of the many moving parts that happen at that point. That exposure is what they're generally looking for.

tired mason
#

So another thing are there any particular skills one looks for in a junior, or maybe the better question is what should a junior know how to do?

royal lintel
#

that's harder to answer, because it depends ™️

tired mason
#

On the project in question or what?

hard zephyr
tired mason
royal lintel
# tired mason On the project in question or what?

just about everything - type of position (gameplay engineering? network? graphics?), studio, what the studio needs and their intention for the position is (do they just need "warm bodies" - though this is usually done via contracting. are they trying to train people up for the future?)

tired mason
royal lintel
#

Sure. I don't think there's anything specific to gamedev when it comes to hiring junior engineers (apart from areas of interest)

hard zephyr
#

In incredibly broad terms I'd personally expect a Junior to be able to contribute some usable piece of work with a reasonable amount of assistance and guidance. I wouldn't be expecting to be able to give them a task and them to just run with it on their own nor would I expect it to be a particularly complicated task however I would expect them to be able to complete a real task that contributes to the game with support (i.e. not some synthetic task for training that's then thrown away)

tired mason
shut token
#

Building a struct for stats if far easier than building an inventory system 😅

hard zephyr
tired mason
tired mason
hard zephyr
tired mason
pure kettle
tired mason
plucky hatch
#

I am still working my main job but dedicating every free time I have to learning gamedev
And we're gonna go "all-in" when it's time to publish our first game

tired mason
#

My main goal is shipping on a console

chrome bone
chrome bone
chrome bone
plucky hatch
#

Indie doesn't mean you are excused from producing garbage @chrome bone

#

But then again with that attitude I don't expect much from you 🙂

#

Who said it was gonna be bp only? Dumb Laura take as usual

#

get blocked

chilly sundial
#

Just chill out a bit.

#

No one's saying indie is a free pass to be sloppy.

#

Thank you. I tend to use they if I don't know :P, but will keep it in mind for future reference

deep mural
#

What if you are just simp

chilly sundial
#

I have made the mistake of assumption based on a profile before, not one I aim to make again to be honest

deep mural
#

Idk what if you simp for a video character named laura

pure kettle
chilly sundial
#

The salt shaker kinda looks like a weird little robot

pure kettle
chilly sundial
#

Can't stop seeing a face in the top bit

pure kettle
#

I'm on the more supportive side of people reaching for the stars, but MMORPG with dedicated server is way up there, and more taxing than single player or simpler listen server multiplayer

chilly sundial
#

Indeed. I'm all for being ambitious, but trying to sprint before you can walk and trying to do things solo that would cost an experienced team millions are my limit

chrome bone
#

Ive seen it happen and red flag #1 is thinking you will eclipse a true AAA studio. You won't unless you have a very specific niche, skill or talent. You simply won't have the time and budget. (Unless you are a rare rich indie then blessings to you!)

tired mason
#

Or you have a multi millionaire brother with a good relationship with a bank

chrome bone
#

Or that

#

You know anyone like that?

tired mason
#

Yes, me

#

And he’s not willing to invest 🥴

#

Thus I ask the questions I ask

chrome bone
#

You have to convince him

chilly sundial
tired mason
chrome bone
#

Haha!

#

Well. There are no free rides or easy paths.let that be the career advice i guess

tired mason
#

Worse case scenario I come out the other end with a new skill

chrome bone
#

Sounds bad.. coming out the other end but yes

#

Thats a good outcome

#

Let the game industry poop you out reborn

pure kettle
#

||also screw imperial units||

plucky hatch
#

well i guess a few hrs ago

#

but i just check on this channel to see that

plucky hatch
#

Hello folks. I'm new to game design and was really excited to do a MMOFPS. but someone recently sent me a message saying that my game may never come out and that multiplayer indie games aren't worth making and that I should stop. Of course this has hurt me a lot and all my hopes and dreams have been destroyed within a few minutes. I checked it out and it's actually not that easy to make a multiplayer indie game. My question is should i listen to these people is it really totally impossible or should i just put several years of work into it and then release it. Why did I do all the work until now? It’s really all depressing and frustrating for me right now. Why is everything so difficult…

royal lintel
#

First: it's actually not that easy to make a multiplayer indie game
Nothing is impossible, but there's a reason that people coming into gamedev communities asking about how to make some lofty project (usually an MMO) get made fun of. It's one of the most complicated things you could want to create, and not something any beginner will have success at without quite a bit of experience at a minimum.
It sounds like you're new to game development - start with the basics. Don't think about multiplayer, don't think about building your dream project. Start small and build small games, work your way up. And don't expect to build anything even remotely big for a long time - game development is not a simple field.

silk peak
#

Follow the dopamine, let the drive take you through the hurdles. It's easier to over come the learning curves while trying to achieve specific objectives that are small scoped at first. Don't overstep that barrier otherwise burnout becomes a real threat. With every new learning comes with a new tool within your arsenal to be used. Fail fast and fail with intention to learn. It's hard to do this while working on a 2 year project.

#

Also, get good at blueprints. This single skill will leverage a lot of unreal and help push you through the process of making your ideas come to life.

#

Find someone that can do this with you. Having someone else that knows your dreams and intentions will push you when times get difficult.

pure kettle
#

To quote myself on the topic matter

I'm on the more supportive side of people reaching for the stars, but MMORPG with dedicated server is way up there, and more taxing than single player or simpler listen server multiplayer

craggy nacelle
#

^yep

#

I think it's fine to aim high but keep your expectations realistic

#

You can have an MMO as your ultimate goal even if you struggle with it at first (as you likely will)

pure kettle
# plucky hatch Hello folks. I'm new to game design and was really excited to do a MMOFPS. but s...

Not to stomp one's dream, but the one DMed you about it has a point.
Many indie MMO stuff never make it into fruition, or dead on arrival because the dev didn't think long term about post-release content.

Of course, you have to keep up. Make single player and then local coop/listen server multiplayer games. Those are easier to assemble and less things to worry about. The hope is to rake in enough funding for development, gaining enough experience to plan for post-release, and collecting enough fanbase to fill the servers, ultimately reaching for the MMO dream.

plucky hatch
#

Thanks for the help i just make little steps continue to work on my dream even if its take 10 years. I‘m a dreamer and a fighter

lilac walrus
#

it's likely going to take longer, so you might want to mentally brace yourself for that - game development is a journey and your first relatively small indie game is likely to take 2-3 years, and from there, assuming you're successful, you can build outwards into increasingly large scale projects. You don't need to just build your own experience, but also a studio, that studio's experience, a suitable business network to finance and support your endeavours, as well as an audience to consume them.

chilly sundial
#

Making an mmo is likely to take several years, with a team and enough funding.

The road to learning that and building that will push that 10 years up most likely

flat yarrow
#

hi everybody ! Im in love with ue5, ive made some projects on it but never in the "game industry", i worked more for TV and commercial, just for the money.. Two years ago i atended a game design school for a year and before that i worked as a movie director on my documentaries and fiction movies in workshops in schools for example.
I would really love to join an independant studio team as an unreal engine generalist or digital cinematographer. But i'm having a hard time knowing if that position really exists or if i just need to specialize in dev for ex (where i see lots of positions but wonder how many years of learning i would need to be able to reach a minimum requirement, even though i understand some of it already).. Thanks a lot for your advices, i'm based in France and i would love to work remote as well if possible..

woeful iron
#

like what would you do as digital cinematographer?

brave forge
#

Cinematics

brave forge
flat yarrow
flat yarrow
brave forge
#

I personally haven't. Not advertised as such anyway. I've worked in smaller teams where the reality is your job is a lot more generalist, but typically the job ad is looking for a particular role, which would be that person's primary strength. T-shaped skillsets basically, wide knowledge of lots of things, but only very skilled on one of them

#

That's not to say they don't exist, just that's my experience in what I've seen

flat yarrow
#

ok thanks a lot, i see.. I'm think i'm more interested in small indie teams and in the end in creating my own games..
thanks i didn't know about this website.. I'll see with cinematographer if i see any ad and i think i will create a dedicated portfolio.
And do you think learning dev could be an option ? I have basics and i'm learning c++ but i don"t know the level required to apply..and i clearly don't have an engineer background sadly

brave forge
#

Learning c++ is probably not the best use of your time if development isn't your interest. BP is extremely valuable for all roles that work with unreal though

#

If you WANT to go down that path though, yes, c++ is very heavily recommended for programmers. Even if you can do your game entirely in BP, it opens lots of options for fixing bugs, getting access to things that aren't exposed to BP, and optimising code

#

But, I see a bit if this around, people want to do everything. Understand that doing a whole project in unreal involves the skills of many careers. Don't feel so pressured to learn everything in depth

flat yarrow
#

ok i see thanks a lot.. But do you think there is even a chance of getting hired as dev if i don't have an engineer background ?
Yes i love doing a lot of different things and that's why i didn't specialize in a particular skill..

brave forge
#

So to be clear, when you say dev, you mean programmer? "Game dev" can mean many things

flat yarrow
#

I don't really feel pressured to learn evething in depth i just love to learn eveything ue related.. But when i look at the gaming industry work ads, it's all very specialized

flat yarrow
brave forge
flat yarrow
#

yeah ok i see.. I understand so still i would need to specialize in something related to my background.. and this makes more sense as a cinematographer i guess.. That's hard to choose though !

brave forge
#

Well you could focus on programming as a career change rather than leveraging your current background, but understand that like any career change, it probably requires some time off work to do a course and would also probably mean a drop down the paygrades while you get back up to speed

flat yarrow
#

yeah of course i'm really willing to go this way, i bought this udemy course about c++, so far it's pretty decent, it could help build a portolfio. And since i see a lot of ads for ue5 devs i figure i could start at a low level and learn more once in the company

#

But in a i'm more into creating virtual experiences than really games per se.. So i don't how happy i would be as a dev, i would maybe be hired but not really at the right spot so.. maybe i should keep trying to create my own games, find fund with museums or such and hire a team

deep mural
#

I mean uh not preparing for the worst LOL but wondering what happens if like you join a company and your code doesn't meet expectations/is very bad

#

is the worst they can do just fire you?

brave forge
#

Well ideally you are applying for roles that are within your range (I don't mean what requirements they advertise I mean like junior, mid, senior). If the company is any good they should work with you to help get up to scratch. Even seniors can take a few months to get up to speed in a new role, partly just learning the companies processes, coding standards and the codebase itself.

deep mural
#

Ic

brave forge
#

If however, after a while they aren't happy with your performance, yes, you could be let go for unsatisfactory performance, but depending on your area that usually requires warnings and a performance improvement plan (in other words, they HAVE to work with you to attempt to improve the situation)

#

Worst case is someone sees you worked somewhere else on your resume/cv, and the may know someone there and ask for a reference/recommendation, and you might get a bad reference. The industry can be surprisingly small.

#

Realistically though, if you aren't straight up lieing in interviews about how much experience you have, you probably don't have much to worry about

deep mural
#

thats reassuring

flat yarrow
#

And for devs they usually conduct tests during your applying process to see your level

plucky hatch
# chrome bone Ive seen it happen and red flag #1 is thinking you will eclipse a true AAA studi...

Nobody here claimed that I will be able to eclipse an AAA studio. I'm well aware that I don't have the resources and the manpower to tackle a big project like an AAA studio would. That doesn't stop me from trying my best to provide quality asset, take my time to program things correctly, try to make something in the scope that it will last instead of being your average indie dev that spits out a shitty forgotten game in like 2 months using free assets, blueprint copypasting and with zero plans to maintain and improve - if that's more your thing then I won't judge, unlike someone else here

#

also the entitledness of some people that have a fetish for disrupting some newcomers ambitions when all the did was a shitty subroutine that no one uses really gets to me

plucky hatch
plucky hatch
pure kettle
#

The fact that the topic of "experience shipping a title" snowballing into this is baffling.

plucky hatch
#

if only people were respectful 🤷‍♂️

#

I'm surprised the guy that came here asking to make a mmofps didn't get slaughtered right away

round radish
#

It always surprises me when people come here thinking they're going to make the next insert AAA title and expect to find people to help them, usually for free, when they have no experience at all.

pure kettle
plucky hatch
round radish
#

Not saying it's anyone in particular, but it happens regularly.

plucky hatch
round radish
#

I had to laugh internally when this girl came on an was basically "I'm a girl, help me for free, thanks."

pastel estuary
#

to me it comes across as them talking in a general manner, and you took it personally. @plucky hatch

pure kettle
#

I mean, my project is basically Final Fantasy clone with a bit of Idolmaster writing, just because those two are what inspired me

round radish
#

And if you happen to be extremely charismatic and capable, you can do it, absolutely.

plucky hatch
#

could be, since I was one of the people chatting at the time @pastel estuary , still that belittling attitude is just straight out annoying, doesn't promote a good enviroment
If you wanna correct someone who is sorely off on his expectations you should answer like dakesh and give him proper info, without looking to dismantle his hopes

round radish
#

Look at Richard Branson, went from selling records on the street to own Virgin.

#

But most people aren't either of those things.

plucky hatch
#

for all we know the mmofps dude might be hard on them tutorials right now lol, instead of being shattered by the dm guy

pure kettle
#

||trust me I like playing FF14||

round radish
plucky hatch
#

I do agree that someone who doesn't know what an actor is yet is out of his depth if he wants to make an mmofps as his first game - however if the idea is decent enough and he actually takes the right time to develop things right he might have a shot.
Guaranteed succeess? Nope. Likely to succeed? Neither. But he has a shot

round radish
#

It's not just about the right time, it's about the right experience as well. You can spend all the time yolu like on something, but if you lack fundamental knowledge, you won't ever get it right.

#

Ignoring the infinite typewriter situation.

plucky hatch
#

that time you should mostly spend on gaining experience and knowledge though
otherwise you're just mashing keys on the engine hoping that it spits out what you want

pure kettle
#

Also in between reaching that goal, releasing SP products along the way isn't bad, right? As opposed to committed to just one MMO project all the way

plucky hatch
#

definately

round radish
#

Releasing is certainly valuable experience!

plucky hatch
#

my end project is a competitor to a very popular online game, but it became pretty clear to us that it was out of our scope for the time being. So we are working on two single player games first before we even talk about that

#

and the funniest part is that the online game is already like 99% defined when it comes to all the details, and this first single game of ours which was supposed to be "the easy one" is turning out very hard

pure kettle
#

Which is what was suggested to that MMOFPS guy instead of "don't even bother about it"

plucky hatch
#

pm guy said don't even bother about it tho

#

again I already gave props to siliex for answering properly

round radish
#

Every game is very hard, unless you do what you said earlier, and just copy+paste shitty building blocks/free assets and hope for the best.

lilac walrus
# round radish Look at Richard Branson, went from selling records on the street to own Virgin.

This is a common story you hear about these kinds of people, and should be put to rest because they just aren't true. Branson was born into a very wealthy family which gave him the backing to serially fund and start business ventures until one succeeded. His record business only succeeded initially because he was breaking the law and selling records intended for export at much lower prices than competitors because he wasn't paying tax. When reality caught up with him the cost of that was absolutely colossal; about £900,000 for the fine (adjusted for inflation) plus the 33% unpaid tax on every sale. Where this would have destroyed anyone else, his wealthy family re-mortgaged their house to help pay for it.

#

He never sold records on the street. He started a mail order business with a retail outlet on the London high street.

#

(it was also of course the 1970s, which was a very different economic atmosphere to now)

brave forge
pure kettle
#

Reminds me of that one other story about "self made entrepreneur" when the parents already is an entrepreneur.

lilac walrus
#

That's Branson again 😄

pure kettle
#

Well, I don't know if Branson ever convicted of criminal charges

lilac walrus
#

he wasn't, because his father was a barrister and got him out of it, but he still had to pay the fine and taxes

#

anyone without super-lawyer daddy would probably have gone to prison

brave forge
#

Or rich enough to hire super lawyer

pure kettle
#

As if chance to attract pro bono lawyer wasn't slim enough

lilac walrus
#

this is the thing - every single one of these billionaire success stories is exactly the same, no matter how they try to portray it themselves. Scratch past the surface level and there's layers of extreme privilege that helped get them where they are.

It's like those news articles that pop-up constantly as clickbait '25 year old butterfly masseuse buys house, and you can too!' - and somewhere inside every article is the bit where their family just plain paid for it

brave forge
#

Naa that 18 year old that worked at maccas for 4 years totally owns 3 houses with no help

craggy nacelle
#

You can win in the startup lottery. That's pretty much how it can happen to someone less privileged.

#

Note that I called it a lottery - because that's pretty much what it is

#

Many people can be millionaires by their 50s and 60s if they start investing early and do it consistently... but earlier than that you gotta get pretty fucking lucky with something I think

lilac walrus
#

big difference between millionaire and billionaire, though

#

millionaire is a pretty meaningless concept in 2022

#

I could be a millionaire here just by owning a fucking house

craggy nacelle
#

That's basically the same as saying "If I got a loan for million dollars from the bank I would be a millionaire"

#

:P

lilac walrus
#

ownership and debt are different things, so not really

brave forge
craggy nacelle
#

How exactly are you planning to own a home that's worth a million if you don't have a million dollars to buy one? 🤔

brave forge
craggy nacelle
craggy nacelle
lilac walrus
#

I'm not planning on owning one at all, but you'll note I did say "own", not "mortgage" 😄

brave forge
#

Is it really yours if it gets taken away cos you had a rough few months?

craggy nacelle
#

That's the difference between owning and mortgaging

lilac walrus
#

it's not yours until you finish paying for it!

craggy nacelle
#

But I don't quite know what the point of "you could be a millionaire by owning a house" is because it implies you somehow had the resources to purchase a house worth a million first, which just goes back to getting really really lucky lol

#

I'm 35 and half of my net worth is because I made a random decision to mine dogecoins for shits and giggles back in the day and then I got really lucky and sold them for a ton of money :P This is pretty much the reality I think for a lot of people lol

lilac walrus
#

if you started paying the mortgage 30 years ago, it would have cost you a lot less, and you'd own it by now

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah or if you had invested money for 30 years similarly you'd probably have similar amounts of money

#

hence my point on "many could be in their 50s or 60s"

lilac walrus
#

of course times change (back to 'it's not 1970 any more'), and even getting to the point of having the mortgage is a pipe dream for a lot of people

round radish
lilac walrus
#

few and far between

round radish
#

Absolutely. That was kinda my point.

#

It's 1 in a million.

craggy nacelle
#

Pretty much everyone I know who got rich either got it through starting a business which was then acquired, or by being in a unicorn startup as a sufficiently early employee

#

Guy I worked for in a previous company sold his company to google

#

He never flaunted it but everyone knew he was loaded lol

#

These things do still require at least sufficient privilege to have the education to be able to do these things, and/or the business funding to scale it up enough

green oyster
#

I know a few people that are doing very well with their indie games - "the dream", but they always have a star skillset behind them - for example one is a successful illustrator and poured their craft in their project

craggy nacelle
#

It's possible but it does require the right match of people to come together for it to work out I think

#

Like... I can code my way out of any kind of a pickle, but I don't know if I'm great at actually finishing and launching things which has been a problem in my game projects and my SaaS projects :P

#

So far I've only managed to get together on projects with people who have the same exact problem so those projects then never go anywhere

deep mural
#

What to do when losing motivation for coding?

round radish
#

Enjoy life?

deep mural
#

😶

oblique ice
#

watching career advice video

deep mural
#

Coding is life

chrome bone
chrome bone
chrome bone
#

Be unapologetic of your vision. You are the one who needs to own it at the end of the day. 😄

stuck holly
#

I appreciate that there are many people here trying to put expectations of beginners into perspective but sometimes I feel like the picture drawn is a bit too pessimistic.

Success is a numbers game sure. But even in a lottery you can buy multiple tickets to increase your chances (a.k.a trying again). Unlike in a lottery in game dev or startups you can increase your chances by learning, networking, preparing, etc.
Of course at the end of the day it's still the case no matter how much people learn, only a very small fraction of people will become successful.
But what other options than to allow yourself to dream and follow your heart are there? Giving up before even trying?
Also, it's not all about the final goal either. Isn't it at least as much fun to challenge yourself and continually push your limits? Even if you won't make it!
It's ok to be a fool your entire life as long as it's fun and it's not breaking your back.

lilac walrus
#

It's not just about 'following the dream', it's about how realistic it is. If the dream is to make a living with smaller, decent games, then it's quite achievable so long as you're willing to do the work and get there - but this entire conversation stemmed from wanting to make a large scale MMOFPS - the kind of game that almost doesn't exist on account of the sheer cost and complexity of such a thing. The only high profile success in that genre I can even think of is Planetside, but there's billions of dollars invested into failures.

royal lintel
#

and destiny

lilac walrus
#

not an MMO

royal lintel
#

eh, debatable. Still at the same scale of difficulty.

lilac walrus
#

no part of is massively multiplayer - it's all 20? player instances

chilly sundial
# stuck holly I appreciate that there are many people here trying to put expectations of begin...

Also, it's not all about the final goal either. Isn't it at least as much fun to challenge yourself and continually push your limits? Even if you won't make it!
I don't think, or hope anyone preaches otherwise.
Some people do rely on that final goal, in some cases, at their current level it isnt feasible. I also think it doesn't cause any harm warning beginners to temper their expectations.
Warning people that their dreams of working on a game for a year after picking up the engine for the first time and then having it be a massively successful title is unrealistic, and that most indie titles flop, is in my opinion, better then following that illusion and then having the soul crushing realisation at the end.

I think it's always more constructive to say "Hey, heres how you can improve your chances, remember to not try to run before you can walk". I also think it's worth it to warn people of the downsides, so that they can be sure that this is what they want. I always wanted to be a marine biologist because i like diving, but once i found out there is a lot more to it than that, and large elements are boring for me personally, i lost interest, and that's ok.

Some people don't realise what goes into making a game, so i feel it's best to warn them about the path that lies ahead, so they can make an informed decision on whether it is one they will have fun travelling

royal lintel
lilac walrus
#

none of it is connected?

royal lintel
#

it is though

#

all "open world" PvE roaming zones are made up of a bunch of separate interconnected instances that load you in/out of different servers

lilac walrus
#

that aside, sometimes a reality check is a good thing - ambitions need scope, and you need a reasonable footing to start yourself from. There's not much point aiming for Alpha Centauri if you've not yet grasped how to reach orbit. Focusing on the former, then growing outwards is a very reasonable approach to building a successful career, aiming for the impossible from day zero without the loosest concept of what that requires and no resources at all to get there is essentially aiming for failure

chilly sundial
# lilac walrus no part of is massively multiplayer - it's all 20? player instances

https://www.mmorpg.com/destiny
mmorpg.com lists it as one so it's good enough for me. No matter how many players are in one instance it doesnt change the fact the resources and maintenance required will be similar to that of a traditional mmo

MMORPG.com
Destiny | MMORPG.com

Destiny developed and published by Bungie takes place in the future in the milky way solar system in which a catastrophic event has stricken Earth. There's only one city left on Earth protected by a large sphere called The Traveler. Players are put in to the role of a Guardian powered by The Traveler. Guardians will work together as the last hop...

royal lintel
#

I've seen it called an MMO-lite. But yeah, my point was level of difficulty of implementation.

chilly sundial
#

its not runescape, but the way it is approached is similar

lilac walrus
chilly sundial
lilac walrus
#

haha

lusty hatch
#

Damn you guys are pessimistic. 😄
I know only one guy irl who is an UE expert and he makes like 7x the average salary as a consultant for international companies

royal lintel
#

pessimistic about what? That a single beginner isn't going to make an mmo?

#

that's not pessimistic, that's realistic

chilly sundial
lusty hatch
#

I mean in a way that people type that success is only if you make millions from your own game

royal lintel
#

I don't think any of us are talking success in terms of that. We're talking success in terms of finishing the game, period.

#

An MMO is just about the most complicated possible thing you can build.

#

And beginners with zero experience asking how to make one has become a meme within gamedev communities as a result.

chilly sundial
#

^
not framing success that way. as siliex said its about finishing the game, but also getting people to play it

lusty hatch
#

Yh, I agree with that point

stuck holly
#

But of course if you're in purely for the fun of it then that's ok as well

royal lintel
#

hey, if your definition of MMO is 4 friends in a multiplayer level then go for it. That's not what people are going to assume when you ask about an mmo though 🙂

chilly sundial
#

a person who just installed an engine for the first time wont have the budget, the knowhow, or the outreach to make an mmo and fill it with players. thats just facts unortunately.
no one is saying dont try to build your knowledge, just saying what a project like that requires, and the steps you need to take.
saying an mmo needs potential millions and is impossible solo as a beginner isnt saying "never do this".

its saying "to do this, you need to develop your skills to where you can build a team and secure funding for your idea."

pure kettle
#

Quoting myself on subject matter, again.

Many indie MMO stuff never make it into fruition, or dead on arrival because the dev didn't think long term about post-release content.

stuck holly
chilly sundial
pure kettle
#

Also MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online

royal lintel
#

tbf the most common source of those kinds of questions tend to be from kids in primary/secondary school where time isn't really an investment in the same way. They just want to build something cool.
Though occasionally you get someone from an unrelated industry with zero relevant experience and then you get into talks about "please don't spend your entire life savings on this thing you know nothing about".

stuck holly
#

I believe going for the MMO first is ok because you'll fail anyway. Best way to learn is through failure. If you're starting completely from scratch then the only thing you can do is follow your ambitions. In time the people that are serious about gamedev will pick themselves up and do the necessary baby steps. But I still think it's pretty common to have a grand idea of success in your head when you start - only to be disappointed by reality.
Also for the record - I'm not trying to build an MMO lol, just talking about success in general

chilly sundial
# pure kettle Quoting myself on subject matter, again. > Many indie MMO stuff never make it in...

very true. keeping an mmo on life support is probably the most challenging bit.
You need to make enough to keep profit over your costs, you need to manage your current playerbase (removing cheaters, economy breakers, dealing with general support stuff), you need to stream enough new content to prevent your players losing interest and declaring it "dead", you need to balance things, so things arent massively overpowered, nor take too long to get,

its a mammoth task, and wholly impossible for a lone person, without adding an extra 500 hours to the day and removing the need for sleep.

royal lintel
chilly sundial
# stuck holly I believe going for the MMO first is ok because you'll fail anyway. Best way to ...

I disagree on that. Some faliure is too crushing. Planning out your dream game, starting development, just to realise how much it costs and how hard it is can be really crushing.
Faliure is good for learning, but not in extremes. Failing a few times to implement an inventory will help you remember it better next time, failing to meet a deadline will mean you remember the next one, but realising your potential years of ideas and hard work are impossible to complete is a bit past that imo, and can do some pretty big damage.

I agree it's common, but I also don't think it's ok. It would be better to nip it in the bud, before it blossoms and then you have to burn it down yourself.

stuck holly
# royal lintel That's why trying to break down individual mechanics for someone's "dream mmo" i...

The thing is, somebody asking "how do I make an mmo" has zero knowledge about what they are trying to do. Heck even wikipedia's entry about mmo has a technical section where they explain that you need lots of players, servers, etc. So directing them to that article alone would probably help a ton.
So I guess there are two ways to approach this question. Encourage it or discourage it. Encouraging would be to link to the wikipedia article and make them learn what an MMO is made of - at least the very basics. Discouraging would be to start a huge discussion of why their approach and idea is flawed.

pure kettle
#

Do I really need to quote myself again? Fine.

Make single player and then local coop/listen server multiplayer games. Those are easier to assemble and less things to worry about. The hope is to rake in enough funding for development, gaining enough experience to plan for post-release, and collecting enough fanbase to fill the servers, ultimately reaching for the MMO dream.

stuck holly
royal lintel
#

I'd stop at just "Make single player and then local coop/listen server multiplayer games. Those are easier to assemble and less things to worry about."
The funding bit falls on deaf ears when you're talking to people in school who don't care/don't know enough to care about money.

chilly sundial
#

Why not both?
You can say "its a pretty hard thing to do, and it requires [X things], and you will definitely need to learn more to be able to even start it"

There is nothing wrong with listing the difficulties and suggesting someone start smaller. Hell i'm pretty new to metalwork, but I ain't about to go make a car solo

stuck holly
chilly sundial
chilly sundial
pure kettle
stuck holly
royal lintel
#

That's not what I'm saying

#

My point was just that talking about money or time isn't relevant to most of the people asking about this stuff.

#

And that the order of types of things to build that Makoto mentioned is correct.

#

It's not about discouraging building someone's dream project, it's about not doing that first

#

And if they decide to do it anyway and they fail that's fine, they'll hopefully have learned something more for their next try. And maybe think about that advice and start with something smaller before trying again.

stuck holly
chrome bone
#

Ideally you get some skill in some unreal specialization and go get your first job.

#

Thats a great first step to a world crushing mmo

#

12 months. I think you can make yourself marketable

plucky hatch
royal lintel
#

instead of being your average indie dev that spits out a shitty forgotten game in like 2 months using free assets
direct quote from you. That may not have been what you meant, but it's what people are going to respond to.

uneven drum
#

So I know I should have years of experience with ue before I can get into a career path in game design and ect but how should I go about it just learning or doing game jams or making indie games or ???

pure kettle
uneven drum
brave forge
#

prototype, prototype, prototype

pure kettle
#

I think small amount of companies would also consider successful modding efforts as qualifying for game design

uneven drum
pure kettle
uneven drum
#

Okay I have made a few prototypes and learning game mechanics and lvl design lately

#

Either way I hope to one day be considered good enough so I thank you all for you your wisdom

oblique ice
#

prototype is fun 🙂

flat yarrow
# chrome bone Definitely a place for you on indie teams

Thanks a lot that's reconforting ! I still have to find the right job ad because most of them seem to require at least one year in the industry.. if you have some studios of a size that you think might be right for my profile i would be gladf ! thanks again*

pure kettle
plucky hatch
round radish
#

There's a definite bias there as well because you generally only hear about the good/popular ones.

#

The shit ones are completely ignored.

royal lintel
flat yarrow
rotund nymph
#

Would this be an appropiate place to ask about an offer negotiation that I'm dealing with currently, for a C++/gamedev job? :)

round radish
#

I guess?

rotund nymph
#

Well, I'll ask :D

#

I've received an offer for a position that I would really like to take. However, once I asked to negotiate the offer (my current company extended a counter-offer with a higher salary), expecting them to try to match the counter offer, the communication with the recruiter has slowed down a lot. Each time I follow up (once or twice per week for the last couple weeks) , they answer with a "I'm waiting to hear from the team about a possible update on your offer, meanwhile our current offer is still on the table".

I don't have other competing offers other than the counter-offer, so I feel like they are just letting time pass and see if I accept without further attempts for negotiation.

I really would like to accept, even if the salary is slightly lower - and currently I don't see myself having other tools to leverage the negotiation, other than rejecting it altogether.

Do I have any other leverage that I am not seeing? Should I stop following up to see if they reach back?

The start date would be in 2 weeks, so I'm starting to run out of time to give the notice period to my current company. They seemed to be a bit hasty to get me started, so idk if I can use that to negotiate/speed their answers - something like: "I'd need to delay the start date while I don't recieve the new offer, since I need to compare both offers and then give my current employer the two-week notice period".

woeful iron
#

did you mention to them that your current employer has counter-offered them?

rotund nymph
woeful iron
#

well, if you want to negotiate, you have to be ready to let the offer go though

#

if you are, you could tell them I need an answer in x days for example

#

other than that, I don't think you can do much

#

either take it at what it is or pressure them and risk losing it

round radish
#

I would just make sure to inform them that you have a 2 week notice period with your current employer.

rotund nymph
round radish
#

Then they should know if they drag their feet you won't be able to start.

shrewd geyser
# rotund nymph I've received an offer for a position that I would really like to take. However,...

My experience is that once you decided to leave a company, staying just because of money is very un-productive. If you end up staying I bet you will be still wanting to leave in 6 month, after the new salary hype is gone. Also, doing a salary bidding war is something that can backfire very easily.

If the offer you got is something you are willing to live with, I say take the offer. Because I imagine that there are other reasons to leave your company and move to a new one, other than just money.

rotund nymph
rotund nymph
round radish
#

It's pressure on whoever has the least power.

#

If they want you, it's pressure on them.

shrewd geyser
rotund nymph
rotund nymph
round radish
#

Go for it then.

rotund nymph
#

Yep, I think I'll accept it. I did want to give negotiation a try, because I am sure they could pay more, but didn't prepare myself well in advance to have more leverage (mainly, competing offers)

deep mural
#

If I became an intern how many developers am I working with

pure kettle
round radish
#

It's always 17.

deep mural
#

Most of my cpp knowledge has been just implemented into unreal but if alot of interviews really do just give generic questions it would be GREAT if I could just do that aswell, is there anything I should look into particularly? I doubt making a simple calculator console application will be of any use to help me gain any knowledge

#

I've never thought about creating vanilla C++ projects so not sure what I could even make

modern relic
#

In other news, I have this mild fear of being "sidelined"(?). I'm working with a friend to make both our first game, but I'm still learning a lot about gamedev. At some point we are probably going to get another person/s in to help and what if they are better than me? I have a permanent position, and at first I'll be the go-to person for information about the code and stuff in our game, but once they are familiar with the project then what do I do? I'm no longer the "lead" dev/programmer since I won't be the most knowledgeable

brave forge
#

Leads aren't always the most technically competent on the team. They absolutely have to be somewhat technically competent, but seniors often run rings around them. The point of the lead is to.. well lead. This includes a lot of the soft skills that the team needs. Project planning, risk analysis, removing blockers for team members. This sounds like PM and HR problems, but the team lead is part of that, and bridges the team with those

deep mural
brave forge
#

But, I'm not sure that would remove your fears. There's also a possibility that you have some imposter syndrome. But it's also possible that they will be better, atleast in some aspects. How do you avoid getting sidelined? First, it's very very important you talk with your team mate and ensure you don't fall into common traps that can turn you into a toxic team mate. Hoarding knowledge, deliberately missing out on hires that would greatly elevate your team, etc. Otherwise, think of what you bring to the team beyond the nuts and bolts coding.

brave forge
deep mural
#

doesn't c++ do order of equations by default?

brave forge
#

If you don't have much of a portfolio yet, I wouldn't be too concerned about "saving it for only the good projects". If I was hiring a new grad, I'd be happy to see projects like that which can demonstrate key concepts

deep mural
#

alright

brave forge
#

Eg read from the commandline "(300 + 4) / 30 + 8 * 2)'

#

C++ won't execute that, you'll need to parse and tokenise it, then probably put it into a graph structure, or reverse polish notation stack, and then execute it

#

Those are pretty big concepts to demo

deep mural
#

right

modern relic
rotund nymph
rotund nymph
woeful iron
#

I mean if you're the "founder", no matter how much experience they have, you can still make decisions

#

see it more as an opportunity to learn from them indeed

#

you should never want to be the smartest person in the room

rotund nymph
deep mural
#

I will try this

foggy vault
#

Hi guys, Is there any website where i can apply for a job ? in my country it's hard to find a job in game dev / graphic design and alike

#

Entry level OFC

modern relic
rotund nymph
#

@shrewd geyser @round radish @woeful iron I accepted the job today and gave my 2-week notice period today. I wanted to thank you for the advice :)

woeful iron
#

congrats

shrewd geyser
round radish
deep mural
#

nice

round radish
#

This isn't #advertise-yourself

wary idol
celest lodge
#

The problem is

#

I cant write in the job channels

wary idol
#

You post jobs with the bot there using slash commands
#instructions explains it

muted tinsel
#

/job volunteer

#

well that didn't work 😦

wary idol
chilly sundial
#

think you can also tab it can't you?

wary idol
#

You can yeah

pseudo veldt
#

i was curious if anyone knew any good independent game dev study opportunities through colleges for a highschooler, my school does offer computer science classes, but i’ve done all of them (there aren’t many) and i found that i knew the material in all of them, i don’t know if the right move would be just to take an ap course independently or what, if any of you have ideas lmk

rotund nymph
# pseudo veldt i was curious if anyone knew any good independent game dev study opportunities t...

I have no knowledge of official high school/college programs, I did most of my learning on my own.
I definitely would encourage you to seek any way to learn if that's what you want and enjoy. Fortunately, many universities post their (excelent) courses online for free or cheap, I followed along a couple of selected courses to learn programming basics when I was starting, plus algorithms and data structures.

#

I'd reccomend Harvard's CS50 to start

vagrant compass
#

Gm kings. In theory, what would it take for a total beginner with zero experience of coding to learn to game dev with unreal?

Just for fun too, nothing at a professional level. I work in a different field. Just want to know if it's possible that maybe one day I can make my own shooter 😅

spice dagger
vagrant compass
#

Like, do I need to learn some basic programming language first, then something else, etc

spice dagger
#

You could build a shooter entirely in Blueprint.

#

So Blueprint would be where to start.

vagrant compass
spice dagger
#

If its intended to be Multiplayer, you would need to learn about replication.

spice dagger
vagrant compass
spice dagger
#

I think it would be best for you to learn about Unreal itself first, before learning to build something with it.

vagrant compass
spice dagger
#

Go take a look at the documentation.

vagrant compass
pure kettle
vagrant compass
deep mural
#

How does a yearly salary work in a big business?

#

For example at like McDonald's you can just pick your shifts whenever, there's no clear yeary wage

plucky hatch
deep mural
plucky hatch
#

Well it varies company to company, since Covid many are happy for you to be at home, personally I only have to do 3 days in the office 8-4 or 9-5

#

In my last place it was 10-6 5 days per week.

#

If you need to work more than that often then you usually get overtime.

#

Overtime is then sometimes 1.5 or 2 times normal pay rate on the weekend.

#

Where I live, no matter the job, working hours are not supposed to exceed 40 hours per week, and 50 hours with overtime.

deep mural
#

Maybe in my state it is

plucky hatch
#

I don't live in the US, you have crazy work rules compared to Europe, so I cant say what works there im afraid.

plucky hatch
deep mural
#

Alright that's what I'd think I'd be working once I get a job in the area

plucky hatch
pure kettle
plucky hatch
#

Almost always fixed rate and then some companies will have some type of bonus scheme.

#

ive never heard of non-fixed rate for full time staff, i'm not sure how that would work or be legal. Maybe if you are a contractor and charge per hour.

pure kettle
#

Well, I'm in a different context, as I'm planning for opening full time team.
So it would be fixed rate then.

At least from my prior local (odd) jobs, I always get non fixed rate in full time positions.

#

I was paid by contribution on top of minimum wage, I thought this was the case with anything involving creating non-repeating products

plucky hatch
#

Well if you are making a serious company with employees then you are going to need to pay them a salary + whatever benefits are required by the rules where you live. Where I live that would be:
-Salary
-Pension
-Employee insurance
-Healthcare
-Holiday Pay
-Sick Pay
-Maternity/Paternity pay
-Office Equipment (at least a desk and chair)

#

I have never heard of an employee in this area of work getting minimum wage + contributions depending on how much they work. Sounds like a bad deal.

pure kettle
#

Well, if you can tell already, my local work rules is already loose for such things. 😛
Being gone through that, I wish I had better rules in my back, or if not starting from myself enforcing it.

#

At least where I live, you're pretty much can't retaliate with unpaid crunch, non-fixed rate for full time positions, or other malpractices.

plucky hatch
#

Well you get what you pay for as they say, good luck 🤷‍♂️

lost timber
#

how do I get a job as a blueprint programmer?

rotund nymph
#

I'd go with an open mentality, 0 expectations, and enjoy the path. Otherwise it gets very stressful

pure kettle
lost timber
#

many thanks

vagrant compass
spice dagger
#

@polar flower Please use the Job Board.

rotund nymph
vagrant compass
rotund nymph
vagrant compass
rotund nymph
foggy vault
#

I need a career advise guys, as i see it it's better to choose on the topic to get professionalize with on UE , but i am not so sure how does it work in the real life industry, should i be more specific about what i learn or just learn everything ?

oblique ice
#

you want learn?

foggy vault
#

OFC i do, but learning without practising worth nothing, if u know what i mean .

#

My main goal is finding a job in GameDev

oblique ice
#

alot people also want that, people in here also want same things, you can pinned messages up there for some helpfull advice 👆🏻

foggy vault
#

I understand, but my question is , should i learn specific topic deeply or learn everything e.g. animation blueprints c++ blender art.....

granite solar
#

If you try to spread your skillset out so early you aren't going to proficient enough to be beneficial in any of those areas. What do you want to do? Do you want to be a programmer, a designer, a 3d modeler, concept artist? The last goes on and on. Learning animation is going to give you next to nothing if you're applying for programming gigs. Learning to program is going to give you next to nothing if you are aiming to be a concept artist.

foggy vault
#

I know that i love programming c++

granite solar
#

Then you experiment, figure out what you enjoy doing and what you don't enjoy

foggy vault
granite solar
foggy vault
#

Inspiring , thank!

plucky hatch
#

Hello guys

#

I hope everyone is doing well.

chilly sundial
#

Make one? The entire series of models for an entire city is going to be hard to come by yourself?

Also do you plan on releasing the game?

chilly sundial
#

big rip

#

didnt even realise it was career chat until after i replied lmao

plucky hatch
#

Hello, I hope everyone is doing well today

plucky hatch
#

Is there a way I can apply for an internship position to some jobs in the job channels ?

round radish
#

You could contact the people offering the jobs, I guess, and find out if something like that is available?

#

Doesn't hurt to ask.

shrewd geyser
#

Did you read the entirely of the job posting? Because all of them have a "How to apply" little section.

eager cloud
#

Hello Everyone, I am from India, Currently doing a Real-time 3d and Virtual Production course at Cg spectrum, I am looking to work / Study abroad after this, can anyone suggest, which countries have good job Opportunities in the Animation or film sector? I will be grateful for your answers. Thanks in advance.

plucky hatch
pure kettle
plucky hatch
#

I came here from a country within the EU, and that was hard enough, if you come from outside it's incredibly difficult.

#

You cant just get a VISA and then come over to look for a job as you can in other countries, you need to have a job lined up before you even set foot here. Otherwise you would need to look at getting a study visa, an internship or a scholarship.

#

It would be the same if you came from the US or Canada (to work).

thorny ferry
spice dagger
#

@soft aspen Please use the Job Board via the #instructions for recruiting.

livid glacier
#

anyone studying or graduated or know anything about smu guildhall?

#

i cant get the job... i have bs degree in computer science, and i have profilio....I did more than 100 application. just got 2 interview and fail(becuse i didnt play their game)

#

...one of my plan is go to smu guildhall. i have a question. for people who graduated from smu guildhall (specialization in level design), what percentage of those people can successfully find a job n get into the game industry? No need to be exact, almost≈? I would be very grateful if you guys can answer this question.

craggy nacelle
#

Chances are your job applications were bad.

#

I get job applications even from qualified people that make me wonder "what on earth were they thinking when they wrote this?" that would most likely get them dropped from someone who's more busy than I am lol

#

Of course I don't know for sure, but 2 out of 100 is a sign of something being wrong somewhere :)

plucky hatch
#

Make sure to write a bespoke letter with each application not just sending the portfolio. I applied for 115 when I moved to a new country, I heard back from only 50.

#

An important thing to remember, since in this industry it's more portfolio based than academic, you need to make a calculation on how much all this education will cost you vs what sort of return you imagine.

granite solar
# livid glacier anyone studying or graduated or know anything about smu guildhall?

I got a friend that went to SMU Guildhall, and they got a job within a month of graduating. I was impressed seeing the projects they worked on and they seemed to enjoy their time there. They get to work in actual teams with dedicated producers, artists, engineers, designers, etc. Pretty cool imo. But this is just a single I-know-a-person case and not my personal experience.

rotund nymph
#

I'd add to the advice, be as prepared as you can for the interviews (all of them). Once you get the call and make it through the first screening(s) you want to make sure you don't fail due to lack of preparation (but don't torture yourself if things don't go well. Just be sure to prepare)

oblique ice
#

Me too, lost count my interviews, just don't like interview people

ashen lynx
#

I despise the idea of preparing for an interview, outside of making best efforts to ensure your timely and orderly presence there. It has pretty low exhaust vs effort input.

deep mural
#

ik i was told that you could be hired to a ue job with just knowing cpp but what about a multiplayer ue job? I feel like thats extremely unlikely no?

#

ic

plucky hatch
# plucky hatch

isnt it weird if you write cover letter your chances are higher. To me it seems those people who invite and makes selection process have no idea what to ask

#

once I went to an interview and I forgot to take a pencil. I asked human resources women at start of written exam to give me pencil and she looked at me with "weirdo" look on her face. However, I got invited for another round where I was asked questions. And I was told I have put a benchmark on their written exam, though I have not felt like I made it great and by no means I am some genius, I am just regular average guy. In other words, dont freak out on interviews, just go out like its another day. Take some notes with pencil if you want to look more professional. But I would never pick candidate that way

craggy nacelle
#

You have to keep in mind that it's never a simple choice of A vs B. Everyone has their pros and cons. If one of them left an impression because they took notes with a pencil, that can give the edge to tip the scales

#

(But nobody will think of it "let's hire this person because pencil")

ashen lynx
plucky hatch
craggy nacelle
#

Unfortunately it's pretty much impossible to do a realistic evaluation of a person in that way

#

Like in a fully objective sense

plucky hatch
# plucky hatch isnt it weird if you write cover letter your chances are higher. To me it seems ...

I never even bother screening someone if they don't write a cover letter, otherwise it just comes off as lazy and shows they have no interest in this actual job.
The last two jobs I have hired for I had over 100 applicants for each, so I will of course scrutinise what is coming in. If someone has shown no effort then I am not going to look too closely at them unless the work is amazing. Most peoples work is usually the same however so its the little things that will differentiate them and set them apart.

If someone writes an email or letter addressed to me I am going to read it, it's already caught my attention this is a good thing. In my opinion, I think its bad advice to give people to simply send in a portfolio, rather than do the extra 5-20 mins of work to write a small note to go with it.

rotund nymph
#

A programmer I knew entered Microsoft recently as a senior and he definitely prepared his data structures/algorithms and system design questions

rancid terrace
#

where is unpaied gig channel?

#

Did they turned it off?

brave forge
covert gulch
# plucky hatch I never even bother screening someone if they don't write a cover letter, otherw...

I'm going to play devils advocate here and say the expectation of a cover letter these days is a bit dated considering a large portion of the workforce is remote based these days, and nearly every single application an applicant fills out generally also is accompanied by a number of "tests" as well.
Until time of hiring I personally feel it's not necessary to send a cover letter, and you even said it yourself, "If someone has shown no effort then I am not going to look too closely at them unless the work is amazing." - If they send a portfolio, that should be more than enough cover letter material to get general conversations stirred, and only at the point a person lacks a portfolio would I ever expect a cover letter expressing desires, intent and growth goals.
But leading with the fear of placing the concept of never being looked at without a cover letter is not something I'd consider fair to the Jr's mentality in this space getting started. No one owes a company their time until they are bought, right?
But maybe I'm just less institutionalized than most, but I've screened thousands of hires in my time in managerial roles across many different industries, a good vetting process starts with regular engagement at a personal level, equally from both sides.
While I'm not saying don't send a cover letter, send it by all means, but it shouldn't be expected if a well detailed portfolio is sent, overlooking someone because they lack a single document does a disservice to the employing company as well.

round radish
#

To be fair, it doesn't take much to write a cover letter.

plucky hatch
# covert gulch I'm going to play devils advocate here and say the expectation of a cover letter...

Maybe its a cultural thing, in the UK and now in Sweden it's expected. I am also a creative not a developer ive never had to or given a test to anyone so my metric of application is based on the portfolio alone.

My advice still stands, in this highly competitive industry, write some form of accompaniment with your portfolio, maybe you are right but whats an extra 10 mins of effort if it makes the difference.

round radish
#

Cover letters are just so much bullshit, I couldn't imagine reading them all as a HR person.

#

But you should still send them.

covert gulch
# round radish To be fair, it doesn't take much to write a cover letter.

Great counter stance, but when you have an applicant applying to 100 different positions over the course of a week, while they are nestled in another company running 30-60 hours a week, also running the ringer with all of the returned tests, consistently re-writing a cover letter is a daunting task for them, no?

#

Would a portfolio not speak greater distances as well?

round radish
#

You don't have to constantly rewrite it, though?

#

99% of it won't change, as long as you're not applying for completely disparate jobs.

covert gulch
covert gulch
round radish
#

You can personalise it without changing most of it.

plucky hatch
#

Maybe you are all overthinking of what I mean by cover letter.

A cover letter is as simple as:

Hi Liam,
I saw your job advert for (position) at (company).
I am a designer with 5 years of experience, I have a passion for hard surface and automotive and think I would fit in great with your team. Here is my portoflio, take careful note of 'x' and 'x' project's I think they relfect the position.
Hope to hear form you soon 'x'

round radish
#

Maybe >>> ? 😛

covert gulch
round radish
#

I mean, he's done that in a few sentences.

covert gulch
#

Perhaps, yes, but would that not be already stated in the resume, blatantly?

round radish
#

I think the style of cover letter RvD has given here is a sort of highly focused version of a resume.

#

Obviously it's not going into all the details you've have on a resume.

covert gulch
#

For something of that caliber, why request the extra hoops if one isn't expecting detailed understanding of why the individual would be a great fit? It's just a slap in the face time wise to creatives, developers, and working professionals in my honest opinion, again an opinion.
All of that data can be pulled skimming the resume. 🙂

#

Also thank you for the returned conversation this morning 🙂

plucky hatch
#

Ahh well usually I don't get a resume, its just a portfolio, and annoyingly a lot of the time there is no info in it aside form contact details.
So maybe what I am asking for is a resume in your head. @covert gulch and then indeed we are on the same page.

covert gulch
plucky hatch
#

Yes ok I wondered why it was so decisive 😂

Yeah its an odd one something I notice more and more, I just get emailed a link to an ArtStation or a PDF attachment with only work and no info, no about me, no past work history, no references and I get annoyed (and those are the ones I just drop off the pile, unless the work is exceptional).

round radish
#

Why would people do that?

#

That's definitely zero effort.

covert gulch
#

In the US it was quite common over the last 15 years to request a portfolio, resume, CV, and supporting references, accompanied by a slew of tests for general applicants

plucky hatch
covert gulch
#

Anything

plucky hatch
#

Damn, I became a designer so I** didnt **have to do tests 😬

pure kettle
#

Though some companies went with forms and sometimes provide no entry for cover letter nor equivalent

lilac walrus
#

I generally expect to see a cover letter and a CV, if not also a portfolio of work

#

I don't tend to need things like references up front, and we do have a basic test for most roles, that are sent out to candidates with no shipped title experience

#

I don't think we've ever asked for references, actually

covert gulch
# plucky hatch Yes ok I wondered why it was so decisive 😂 Yeah its an odd one something I no...

I think we actually just identified something of critical importance for hiring with the growth of remote roles, geo-location plays a huge factor in understanding hiring practices and what is expected, as apparently it does vary quite a bit.
For example, when you were initially discussing the CV portion, my perceived understanding was based on the fact a resume, references, and portfolio are provided, when the actual fact of the matter is it was entirely different.

covert gulch
plucky hatch
# covert gulch I think we actually just identified something of critical importance for hiring ...

Yes, with my studio due to the nature of our work we are about 90% in house too (you can still work from home but you have to be able to physically travel to the office) so we don't have many remote people. It's a big investment when we hire so for that reason I really need to be thorough with my team hires.
Yeah its a mixed bag, sometimes I get just a portfolio link, even more confusingly sometimes I just get a CV and resume and no work, for a design role, even senior design roles 😩

round radish
#

Maybe they assume you'll ask for a portfolio if you like them? Shrug

craggy nacelle
#

I was reviewing applications for a full stack dev position at work and one guy spent half of his cover letter talking about chess

#

So uhh... yeah. Maybe think about what you write into it

#

:D

plucky hatch
craggy nacelle
#

Oh yeah... another guy sent his CV and his cover letter basically said "Let's not waste time, call me <phone number>" and that was literally all there was to that one

#

I'm not a busy person who has to review hundreds of these so I usually read even weird ones because they're kinda amusing but this one went straight into the trash lol

round radish
#

I'd definitely sign him up to something fishy.

potent sedge
#

Anyone got any advice or a guide that helped them get their first programming job?

modern relic
pure kettle
#

Also don't afraid to experiment

modern relic
#

Ye definitely this. Not every project has to pan out or be sold. Sometimes it's enough to think of some game mechanic and implement it

plucky hatch
#

I guess it depends on what type of Unreal jobs you are applying for too (and where).

craggy nacelle
#

Tbh pretty much every single worthwhile job requires one unless you know someone who lets you bypass the application entirely lol

brave forge
#

I've never written one as a programmer either. I think the job type is the biggest factor, combined with experience level

shut token
#

The real lesson is: it's a total crap shoot. Good luck!

plucky hatch
#

here's the secret to any job: you got to know someone on the inside already

#

a random stranger won't go too far unless he's the one in a million with an indian/chinese level curriculum

craggy nacelle
#

Oh yeah writing any kind of "formal BS" is useless

#

don't start your cover letter with "Dear Hiring Manager, I hereby declare my intent on applying for your job bla bla"

plucky hatch
#

Yeah I don't mean formal letter, I think there was a misunderstanding with what I at least class a cover letter.

craggy nacelle
#

I'm not even joking half of the applications I've been going through started with some kind of prose like that...

#

Cover letter is where you tell them why they should talk to you lol

shut token
#

Well it might not work for you - but it would work for others.

#

The reason it is all BS is because everyone has different ideas on what should and shouldn't be in a cover letter/cv

craggy nacelle
#

It's because people are told by other people who don't know anything about it that it needs to start with that

plucky hatch
#

Hmm for me in the type of work I do I like to hear why they want to come and work for me. If I have about 100 applicants per role or more, its nice to see what type of designer wants to come and sit next to me for the next 1 year plus.

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah if your cover letter clearly states you understand what we're looking for and why your skillset solves it that's immediately a pretty good look

shut token
#

Hmm for me in the type of work I do I like to hear why they want to come and work for me
"Hello - I hear you are looking for labor. I can provide labor if you provide funds. Deal?"
This is the only honest answer for like 98% of positions.

brave forge
#

The more I hear "I want to know the person applying is passionate about this role" the more I hear "I want to overwork and underpay this person because passion"

shut token
#

You want passion? Offer a respectable amount of equity. Now I have an actual stake in the success of your product.

plucky hatch
#

Doesn't have to be that way, some of us design leaders are just excited to work with passionate and ambitions people like ourselves, thats how we bounce ideas off ourselves. I dont want a boring deadweight in the team. I need some way to at least parse through the initial batch of applicants.
Doesn't mean it works for everyone, but it works for me. At my last place it was even worse, we could have 3-500 applicants per position.

brave forge
plucky hatch
shut token
#

Roll the dice and just pick one. That'll be just about as accurate.

plucky hatch
#

As @craggy nacelle summed it up 'Yeah if your cover letter clearly states you understand what we're looking for and why your skillset solves it that's immediately a pretty good lookä

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No most are pretty good, we have several Universities and game schools pumping people out every year, and we have some big clients so we attract talent from across Europe.

#

I would say that developers and designers probably see different ends to this too.

brave forge
plucky hatch
brave forge
#

Yep

plucky hatch
#

But taking a gamble on a junior or regular usually needs more to back it up. They wont have references, the portfolio will be mostly made up, so they need to give me some reasons to hire them over others at least.

brave forge
#

Sure. Graduate CVs have very little to go on, but personally, as a dev, I'd still look at a CV with more personal side projects outside of uni course more than a personalized cover letter.

#

I mean, you have to whittle the pile down somehow, but cover letter is not the be all and end all for me

#

But again, different roles too

plucky hatch
#

Yep, but as I said earlier, to me a cover letter can be as much as a few sentences of them acknowledging the role and why they would be a good fit. Not a formal thing. My gripe that started this conversation earlier was people just cold dropping a link to an artstation or empty CV with no information

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I still stick with my guns for new starters, its better to write something than nothing, what have they got to loose otherwise. I have not heard anyone say they would not give someone a job for writing a hello note with the application. 🤷‍♂️

shut token
#

what have they got to loose otherwise
Time. The one thing they can't get back.

#

Most likely - they have to apply to more than just your place of employment. Having to do a cover letter for each one bonkers

plucky hatch
#

I don't believe people don't have time to write a paragraph.
I did one for all the places I applied too it was not effort really.

JOBS.png
brave forge
shut token
#

For you it's a paragraph. For someone else, it's 2. For another it's 2 sentences. For another it's an entire page. There is no set in stone "correct" way. That is the problem. It doesn't meet this arbitrary requirement? Instantly goes in the trash.

plucky hatch
#

Well, it is what it is, works for me and at least culturally expected in my neck of the woods as a designer to write something with your application, be that in the email, in the potfolio or a separate note.🤷‍♂️ doesn't mean its a universal truth.

modern relic
plucky hatch
vapid dirge
#

I think the quality of the resume likely has a lot more to do with the response rate than the cover letter. Might be wrong, but easy to conflate if you didn't blind test response rate without.

#

Extra effort is good on the whole, but it's really power dynamics in the end determines so much.

outer valley
#

New here, but figured I might drop my 2 cents on the subject. The strange career path that i've had so far has shown me (which is obviously biased and anecdotal), that the absolute care and time and energy you put into cover letters and resumes means very little, depending on industry, compared to engaging in conversation with the aim of networking, and/or having a straight forward and sincere career objective and conveying that either vocally or on paper, it's really not about presentation, it's about what do you actually want to do and how much do you care about it, because that shines RIGHT through no matter what kind of front you might try to present. I've done the endless resume and cover letter thing, with minimal results, but landed pretty decent paying jobs twice based purely on networking

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a point I left out there, is, the reason it's not about presentation, is because a sincere and ambitious starting point, presents ITSELF

plucky hatch
#

Anyone here know how I should look for work as a hardsurface modeler, I mainly do robotics irl. but I need some quick jobs to fund my studies rn

green oyster
plucky hatch
craggy nacelle
# outer valley a point I left out there, is, the reason it's not about presentation, is because...

I feel like you're drawing mildly incorrect conclusions here :) Being sincere and ambitious does very little if your job application is presented poorly. From what you said, the real key is the networking aspect. That is the thing that if you do it even occasionally allows you to bypass the whole sometimes arbitrary application process, and that is where showing that you are sincere and ambitious is useful since in a personal conversation that is important - compare it to being in an actual job interview.

#

I should note in terms of presentation there is definitely a point where it is "good enough" after which you get diminishing returns from trying to tweak it any further where some folks probably spend too much time lol

woeful iron
#

in my experience, confidence gets you through 90% of application process

#

the other 10% might be some technical test, which you can only slightly bullshit your way through

hushed island
#

Hi. I'm not sure if this is the right channel... but I am thinking of trying to do some freelance work whilst making my own game. I looked at the freelance section and saw a posting that looks ideal for me to start with. It said it was "posted by "Q-bot", (via Manny). I've therefore DM'd Q-bot - but i think it's actually a bot and not a person as I've tried several DM's over a week or so and had no response at all. Am i doing it wrong? Thanks.

#

(i have long industry experience, but not a lot with Discord)

woeful iron
#

it says on top of the post "posted by X", you can dm that person

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or read how to apply in the posted job

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@hushed island

hushed island
#

yeah that's who i DM'd

woeful iron
#

not the bot

#

oh, maybe q bot is a bot

#

idk

#

that depends on the job I guess

hushed island
#

I'll double check

#

How to Apply
DM on Discord
Job ID: 1032390634729902101

#

and all it says is Q-bot

#

That's Q-bot

#

Manny: Posted by @outer crystal
Paper2D Blueprint Programmer
Location
Remote
Responsibilities
I am an indie dev looking for someone to design & implement some Paper2D functions for a sidescrolling platformer (such as double-jump, block & wall-slide) based on a task list, using Blueprints.
Qualifications
-Provide CV/resume/portfolio.
-Experience with Blueprints in Unreal.
-Experience with Paper2D in Unreal.
How to Apply
DM on Discord
Job ID: 1032390634729902101

woeful iron
#

well Q-Bot seems like a person I guess

outer crystal
#

Hello, sorry, I sure am a person

hushed island
#

Hello !

outer crystal
#

It's probably my bad tbh, no worries

hushed island
#

thanks Laura and Dieter - I'll DM you again Q-Bot, np

#

@outer crystal Hello? Are you there?

#

No response to my DMs again - maybe this is a bad sign

woeful iron
#

lol

hushed island
#

no he has replied now - job no longer available. Anyway - cheers for the help guys/gals

outer crystal
#

@charred sentinel Their repeated attempts to contact me over the course of the last week easily borders on harassment. In any case, the posting's been deleted, no harm done.

plucky hatch
outer valley
#

@plucky hatch @craggy nacelle Valid points both. I'm kind of operating on the assumption of: use the appropriate degree of presentation, and proper use of language. What I was more alluding to is how focusing on your core intentions and career ambitions should result in you naturally wanting to present something in whatever way is appropriate for that job/career, whatever it is, rather than focusing on presentation itself, as a concept, in terms of how you allocate your time and energy. In the case of a designer job, the way you present that should extend naturally from your actual skill set, rather than thinking of a way to present it, and working backwards to figure out how to hold that up, in a way? I did not convey that very well 🙂 passes conch

craggy nacelle
#

hehe

#

yeah it's a bit tricky sometimes

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especially for younger folks you get a lot of (unintentionally) bad advice both from parents and schools even so I think it can be kinda tough to figure it out

outer valley
#

which leads me to another aspect of it, which is that "what looks right" or is the in vogue way to do something is a constantly moving goal post, and depends on who you're talking to, which is just another reason that I tend to not worry about it, and worry more about what are my productions? what skills am I developing? who do I WANT to work with, and what direction do I want to go. those things will be a little more timeless and anchored to who YOU are.

warped wedge
#

So guys if I get a degree in software engineering what company do yall think I should work for to get the experience to work for a team like Sony or Rockstar games

#

Please @ me

livid glacier
#

@plucky hatch@granite solar@ashen lynx thank you for you guy's info and advice

modern relic
rotund nymph
#

I don't live in USA, so I have no idea how that works, but maybe internships help as well?

warped wedge
warped wedge
woeful iron
#

if you really want to work for AAA studio though, they hire juniors all the time as well though, so if that's your dream you can just apply for those in the first place and see where it brings you

round radish
woeful iron
#

Don't think he's hiring himself, just letting people know lego is hiring?

round radish
#

Shrug

woeful iron
#

you mean

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

round radish
#

I do.

#

Still don't think it's the place to advertise jobs, even if they aren't yours.

woeful iron
#

true

plucky hatch
#

Oops, I thought I had seen people post adverts here before but must have been mistaken. Yes it wasn't mine, I just see Lego and get over-excited 😂