🌟│wooting80he

[winter coral]

you dont have to

its for calder

[weary knoll]

mold cost

probably too late

mold cost few grands

[midnight iron]

just fyi there are new gateron switches that are ks20 compatible that are as good as ks37b

so switch will be one thing at least i don't think anyone has to worry about

that said I do think adding more switch compatibility would be nice. I know meletrix's booq75 is compatible with both formats

[rough nova]

imagine a gateron black ink HE switch...

that would kill the HE switch scene.

[vagrant haven]

I think it’s also a bit telling that the perception of the 80HE layout ranges from hate to indifference, there haven’t been any adamant lovers of the layout.

[buoyant solstice]

That's not correct.

[winged birch]

There is a sole defender and supporter of the layout. ManaBanker.

[vagrant haven]

Well, people love the inclusion of dedicated arrow keys. But saying “I’m just happy to have dedicated arrow keys” is indifference

[buoyant solstice]

The folks who have positive things to say have been drowned out by the other crowd.

[high ice]

honestly i do like the layout

[silk hedge]

Yea that's not very true, at least it has grown on me

[vagrant haven]

The only positive sentiment I’ve seen is “I’m happy to have arrow keys” or “I’m waiting to see the module” or “I’ll get used to it”.
I’ve been checking here fairly often but may have missed something. But they’re definitely not vocal

[buoyant solstice]

How dare people have a calm and collected way of reacting to something.

[winged birch]

I disagree, I’ve lived in this channel since it was opened and there are many who said positive things about it but very few who’s opinion was entirely positive.

[buoyant solstice]

Yeah well thankfully we have more than one social media 😉

[winged birch]

I hope not Reddit..

[vagrant haven]

My point is they’d say the same thing about 75% or TKL. But the lack of praise for the layout is harsher than the negativity

[tranquil void]

I just cba to flood this channel with the same my opinion over again
I said what I said and I don't need repetition to empower it.

[buoyant solstice]

That's definitely not a heavily biased assumption or anything.

[tranquil void]

People could try to accept they're not always the target market though

[midnight iron]

Honestly saying anything positive gets piled on by the anti layout folks, so I don't really blame the people who don't want to talk about it here

[vagrant haven]

Link me the praise

[buoyant solstice]

No. Accept that there are people with differing opinions.

[winged birch]

How I understood the stream, the 80HE was supposed to be a mainstream board with many as the target group rather than the few.

[tranquil void]

You might not be included in the "many"

[winged birch]

Either way, it’s Wooting’s Keyboard they can do whatever they want.

[tranquil void]

Yep

[winged birch]

Maybe, maybe not.

[vagrant haven]

I’m willing to. That’s why I requested the link. I’m commenting on public perception, not the validity of opinions

[midnight iron]

I know a few people who like the layout. They're not participating in this discord though and talked about it in other discords

[winged birch]

Maybe it was more positive on Instagram or Twitter, I’m not sure.

[midnight iron]

Let's be real, if you post something positive here about the layout you're probably getting a paragraph from anom mocking your opinion as wrong, then 2-3 other people piling on

[vagrant haven]

That’s fair. I was just surprised that when feedback was requested it was a lot of heartfelt criticism rather than praise. But it was more of a “post your grievances” context.

[tranquil void]

From my personal experience I can tell you that is true

[winged birch]

Again, since you’re so offended by my presence. Show me where I’ve been rude or “mocking” positive opinions about the 80HE.

[midnight iron]

The few folks I do know that like the layout are both 'normies', so they don't really see the issues that enthusiasts do

[tranquil void]

how much you've drawn yet

[winged birch]

You’re quoting something I have never said.

[midnight iron]

? i wasn't talking in reference to you

[winged birch]

.

[midnight iron]

oh i have you blocked so I didn't click to see your reply

[vagrant haven]

Let’s keep this on the 80HE and not individuals on the channel🤠

[winged birch]

The guy calls me immature.

[tranquil void]

most sensible 80HE channel enjoyer
likely the only way to enjoy the channel

[winged birch]

You two the only ones who keeping starting.

[tranquil void]

HAHAHAHA

[winged birch]

^

[tranquil void]

You are hilarious, How about you get a career in comedy

[midnight iron]

yeah anyhow as I was saying, the guys that I do know who are happy with the layout aren't super keyboard folk. Mostly just average gamers who don't mind things being misaligned or that there's a more efficient layout

[winged birch]

You meme was more hilarious, you should start a career as a clown.

[midnight iron]

they're just happy with a layout that has f row and arrows

that said they're definitely less than the people who dislike the layout, but they still exist out there

[vagrant haven]

Yeh I’ve generally tended towards 65% on my own accord. But now that I’m not living in a dorm and I have some extra space, I am interested in F keys and dedicated arrow keys

[tranquil void]

sadly for you I already have a career.
And if you think the meme was funny, nice
I never planned it to be unfunny

[winged birch]

Yeah of course and it’s still a Wooting board, nothing’s gonna beat that as of now.

[vagrant haven]

The idea of the layout is very nice to me. The execution could be tweaked. I think the main frustration is just how close it is to being great

[winged birch]

Good for you. It was a very funny meme that I won’t forget.

[vagrant haven]

There’s a lot of questions about why wasn’t it 75% or TKL. But I think the 80% would be fine if it was more visually clean

[midnight iron]

yeah for sure. It's mostly people frustrated because the logic behind the layout doesn't stand up to them vs. what could have been

[winged birch]

Exactly word for word THIS. It is so close to being perfect that’s what makes me sad man.

[vagrant haven]

I will say, the hype video also aged like milk. The whole “people have been asking for this for too long, it needs to stop”, then giving something different probably didn’t help ease in the layout.

[tranquil void]

Rent free in your head

[winged birch]

and also the trade off of making it “perfect” wouldn’t hinder sales. I have not seen anyone dislike a more aligned layout.

[midnight iron]

honestly I think they just didn't quite realize how big the 'aesthetically efficient layout' crowd was

[winged birch]

Hey, that’s my bar!

[tranquil void]

It's mine now.

[vagrant haven]

Well when I saw that I thought it was a TKL being confirmed. TKL is probably the most popular layout, definitely top 3 for gamers. So my brain didn’t even go to the more efficient revisions like 75%.

[winged birch]

Be my guest.

[vagrant haven]

Granted I’d honestly prefer an aligned 80% to a TKL, I just don’t find the TKL look very appealing and would rather save a row. 75% would be my personal sweet spot but that’s asking for a different product.

[winged birch]

TKL is the best of both worlds for gaming and workflow but I don’t believe the 80HE’s layout hinders that at all.

[midnight iron]

there's some tkl designs that look nice. I think it's just with tkl you need to fill the blank space well to accent the boring design

[vagrant haven]

Definitely not. Couldn’t even tell you what keys they dropped.

[midnight iron]

like I love the new jelly vento tkl design. The button and tab on the side make it look less boring

[vagrant haven]

For sure.

[midnight iron]

like that looks super interesting while still being aesthetically pleasing

I actually wonder if the add-on thing they have coming for the 80he is anything like this with a button/something else to fill the spot

[vagrant haven]

Yeh a good accent goes a long way to making a layout look complete or stand out. I think that’s what they were going for with the LED bar, mayyybe follow the trend of car headlights converting to LED bars? But imo that doesn’t land well. Though I could gloss over that easier than the misalignment, at this point I’m used to setting RGB to static and forgetting about it

[ebon sable]

This is exactly the TKL layout I’ve dreamed of for years 😍

[vagrant haven]

Honestly if they made the LED an opaque shine through like the Razer Viper Ultimate, that’d be awesome. And if they added the customizable badge that someone mentioned earlier, that’d be market shaking

[midnight iron]

it's the upcoming owlabs vento

[karmic moth]

How come they didnt go for a standard TKL layout?

Or am I being dumb and they did

[winged birch]

It was overdone they said.

[winged birch]

No they didn’t.

[karmic moth]

But aren't they trying to be as standard as possible to allow for customised cases et cetera?

D:

[midnight iron]

doesn't work that way in non 60% sizes

[winged birch]

Not for the 80HE

[karmic moth]

sux:(

[winged birch]

There are TKL layouts but they don’t qualify as standard.

[midnight iron]

due to gasket mounting differences you'd have to make custom plates to fit into other cases even if you did TKL (although I'm sure a bunch of us would have made custom plates ourselves, but that's a whole niche thing)

[winged birch]

But they could’ve went that route as well and had some other compatible cases.

[karmic moth]

all of my criticism has been said and done, I'm kinda confused what they tried to go for and it seems like everyone else is on the same boat :P

[midnight iron]

I don't disagree, but in the end the end result wouldn't be anything near what I think people think when they want custom case compatibility

unless wooting themselves started selling the plates, which is honestly doable

[karmic moth]

They probably will

[midnight iron]

well i mean if they went tkl, there's no point making custom plates now since there aren't compatible cases

[winged birch]

I don’t think they will for the 80HE as you can only use it with Wooting’s 80HE gasket mount case.

So if they sell them separately you’d still have to buy both so that doesn’t really make sense.

[karmic moth]

I honestly dont think they'll end up going through with the 80he if the community straight up pushes back like that

and also, yeah you're right mb

[winged birch]

We’ll see. If they’re already heavily invested in it there’s no real way back without losing a lot of money but you could say as well that if it sells bad they lose a ton of money too so who knows.

[karmic moth]

True

[buoyant solstice]

It's not like there's a standard for TKL cases anyway.

[winged birch]

Either way 2024 is going to be very competitive with HE boards so we’ll see soon enough what the future holds.

[winged birch]

No there isn’t, if they’d want want compatible cases it’d be teaming up with another brand.

[karmic moth]

i know, but I'm sure there's a way to be as close as possible to a somewhat popular standard (i know I'm being idealistic)

above is good idea, too

[buoyant solstice]

No incentive for us to start that discussion. We can provide cases ourselves and don't need anyone elses help to do so. If someone else wants to make a case that works with our PCBs, they're more than welcome.

[winged birch]

There are a few established brands with TKL kits and cases which fit their boards but that’s a tough route to go as well.

[winged birch]

It wasn’t a suggestion, just a response to ev how there could be compatible cases if Wooting had made a TKL.

[buoyant solstice]

And I was just pointing out how things work.

[winged birch]

I understand that, that’s why I said it.

[buoyant solstice]

(Enter circular conversation)

[karmic moth]

i love recursive discussions!

[winged birch]

😂

[karmic moth]

80% is a wild world though, still hope it'll end up nice

[upbeat berry]

also not like we will stop making keyboards after the 80he

[karmic moth]

Just dont really like the vanilla case

[karmic moth]

TRUE! tkl 2024.

i love coming to conclusions after someone sends a vague message

[buoyant solstice]

Tsh.... and here I thought the 80HE was to be our magnum opus, the one final board to retire off of.

[karmic moth]

The 80HE to rule em all

[upbeat berry]

yes we stop all keyboards and just do 80he as retirement fund

[winged birch]

😂😂😂

[vagrant haven]

Wooting 40% when? Who needs number keys when you have speed🏎️

[karmic moth]

wooting ortholinear

[tranquil void]

The custom cases thing kinda really is exclusive to layouts with a defined standard anyway

Unless Wooting sets that standard, with other companies adapting, it'll be hard to do custom cases for a reasonable price

[vagrant haven]

In the announcement didn’t they say they would release the specs for case manufacturers to maybe make cases?

[winged birch]

40%?!?! Wooting 1% when??

[vagrant haven]

Well 1% is the UwUooting

[winged birch]

UwU takes too much space on my desk, need less keys urgently.

[lofty bay]

whats with the 80he layout lol, who in their team thought that was a good idea

[tranquil void]

They usually do

[winged birch]

I got one like that with my old razer keyboard, I’d actually buy a wooting one too

It had a light and shi

[buoyant solstice]

Me too! They handed those out like candy back in the day.

Battery still works somehow.

[winged birch]

They come with immortal batteries, I bought mine when it came out and it still works as well.

It was either V1 or V2

[verbal solar]

@winged birch wait wtf

u actually didnt sleep?

[winged birch]

I don’t sleep lil bro

[verbal solar]

''lil bro''

ur 150cm tall bro

[winged birch]

u r a muppet lil bro

[verbal solar]

u foo'in bri'ish bruv?

twat

[winged birch]

yk i aint but u r undeniably a muppet bruv

[fossil kite]

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned it, but one of the reasons I was excited for a 75% keyboard was the possibility of having a knob or roller integrated into the design (and to see what Wooting could do with it software-wise!). I have to also agree with some of the people here who have mentioned that the current layout is a bit jarring.

I was planning on upgrading from a 64% board, but as it currently stands I'll likely wait and see what comes out from Wooting and the rest of the keyboard industry in the next few years.

[sudden tiger]

fuck this layout why do you have to try and be diffrent shouldve just made a tkl and everyone would be happy

[ebon sluice]

Did you have similar sentiments when the 60HE was released: why is this thing so smol - should've been a TKL

[verbal solar]

was just looking up wooting discord to see progress and see if any info, the thing looks hideous lol

its all wavy and weird ass layout

[ebon sluice]

nah, you're just in the stuck in stone age

[supple ember]

nah tkl ugly af

[verbal solar]

its a standard layout, doesnt matter what you think of its appearance

why try and be the odd layout at 80% lol

[supple ember]

because tkl wastes space

80he wastes less space

[verbal solar]

lmao, it would literally be 1 extra key row on that layout

[supple ember]

and?

[verbal solar]

its literally 5% difference, you act like it would have had a full numpad added on lmao

youre barely saving any extra space for a dumb layout

[supple ember]

well it's still a difference

[golden path]

80 percent goated

[ebon sluice]

The only redeeming feature a TKL has is you don't waste as many keycaps, other than that it's a tired old horse mercilessly beaten with a stick

[golden path]

arrow keys are great for editing keyframes

[verbal solar]

nothing "goated" about it, you limit your sales making these dumb layouts

[supple ember]

we'll see about that

[verbal solar]

i would have bought standard layout, i dont want that

[supple ember]

sucks to be you then i guess

[green robin]

I just wanted a standard tkl layout because i use the delete, home end, pgup/pgdown all time and i dont want to have to get used to a different layout, especially because i use a standard 100% layout at work and uni, i want a consistent layout for any work i do, and i cant really justify the 80HE just for gaming

[verbal solar]

nothing to see about anything, they're called standard layouts for a reason, they are the most preferred lol

[ancient breach]

I would not go that far, standard layouts are also such because they are conceptually easy

[supple ember]

then buy the 2he

[ancient breach]

tkl is just full size without a numpad

[golden path]

if you need a numbad in 2023 check in with you local psych ward

oh shit

[verbal solar]

TKL doesnt have a numpad 😂

[golden path]

its 2024 now

[verbal solar]

thats the whole point of TKL

[green robin]

I kinda am thinking i might, but for gaming 100% is annoying, so tkl for me is best compromise between gaming and work

[verbal solar]

you dont even know what TKL is

lmao

[supple ember]

well we aint getting a standart tkl

atleast not soon if ever lol

[jolly tangle]

there is no standard for a tkl

[golden path]

oh wait your just complaining that its not in the place you want it to be 😂 my fault you bitching more than i thought

[green robin]

thats why im giving feedback lol

[verbal solar]

i would have maybe considered it if the case wasn't so ugly

[jolly tangle]

but please try to describe as accrurate what u want to see

calder is going over this thread

[verbal solar]

its too late at this point

[ebon sluice]

stop being such a boring normie with your normie ass layouts

[supple ember]

bruh now the case is ugly 😂

[verbal solar]

and yes, there are standard TKL layouts

thats standard TKL layout

[ebon sluice]

oh wow another TKL, just what the market needs

[supple ember]

i rly like how the case looks, glad they turned the design around

[verbal solar]

what? the board youre defending is TKL

[supple ember]

it isnt, has less keys

[ebon sluice]

not in a conventional sense

[verbal solar]

lmao, its just an unconventional TKL layout... do you guys even know what youre arguing

[green robin]

I think the case looks pretty good tbh, just not layout

[ebon sluice]

there's nothing to argue, you either take the 80HE's design or leave it. What's done is done. There's always 2025 to look forward to

[verbal solar]

TKL = TENKEYLESS = NO NUMPAD

its not hard guys

[jolly tangle]

its not that simple, but I also dont understand it well enough

[verbal solar]

lmaoooooo, aww boy

[golden path]

so they dropped 4 keys and shifted the arrow keys over get a grip buy an apex pro😂

[real gulch]

i have never seen a keyboard with a "10" key

so every keyboard is tenkeyless

[winged birch]

0 to 9

[golden path]

theres an enter key on the side

[verbal solar]

get a grip on what? can ppl not express their dislike for something in a channel that should be used for feedback?

[tranquil void]

technically possible to make one with DKS

[tranquil void]

and more

[verbal solar]

its funny how salty fanboys get when you criticize something they like

[real gulch]

this will boost my productivity

[tranquil void]

a numpad is 17 keys tbh

[verbal solar]

its 75%

[tranquil void]

Yes

[real gulch]

i make my fn layer with all numbers above 9

[verbal solar]

real

[supple ember]

when your criticism is should have done a "regular" tkl and we said we are tired of the old tkl design you cant seem to accept that

[real gulch]

real faker typing

[golden path]

#1141096226884956181 reading is hard

[ebon sluice]

This time next year the market will be flooded with more TKL's from the custom scene as well as HE. I can't wait to rub peanut butter all over my body celebrating keyboards that all look the same. Aside from MatrixLabs.. these guys know their shit

[jolly tangle]

please keep this channel about feedback about 80he not #1141096226884956181

[verbal solar]

why do you want rub peanut butter on ur body

[verbal solar]

youre so upset lmao 😂

[ebon sluice]

I dunno, it feels nice I guess

[verbal solar]

does it?

[ebon sluice]

Try it, stop being so bland for once

[winged birch]

This channel is an actual warzone

[verbal solar]

have you tried using krytox 205g0 or 206g2 instead?

[ebon sluice]

Oh baby!

[verbal solar]

quite expensive but might yield better results

[winged birch]

He wants nuts all over him, not lube

[verbal solar]

or better yet bdz

[ebon sluice]

too viscous

[verbal solar]

im prob just gonna get the 60he and do case mod swap after seeing the 80he

[verbal solar]

i can give him that

[winged birch]

ofc u can, you’d like it too

[verbal solar]

maybe

[green robin]

I hope some of the feedback doesnt get lost in here lol

[verbal solar]

i'd do it for a brother or a sister

[dense ridge]

Happy new year bro.. any news ? Will this horrible 80he be changed? Just came back from a trip

[ebon sluice]

No, I won't accept that. You will buy the 60HE and 80HE and think of me while you climb the ranks

[verbal solar]

damn

[winged birch]

Calder knows all about it at this point so nothing will be lost.

[verbal solar]

wait thats an asian girl

this guy knows what he is doing

[winged birch]

Happy new year to you too bro, sadly no news yet.

[verbal solar]

your brain has been lost

[dense ridge]

[verbal solar]

as soon as you enter this channel you refuse to use it

[winged birch]

My brain starts up when I enter this channel

[verbal solar]

cap

[winged birch]

unlike you

[verbal solar]

you can not compete with the grindfather

give it up

[jolly tangle]

anon and doc go to general if you want to troll

[verbal solar]

we are discussin the 80he

[winged birch]

Aye

[verbal solar]

and how his design will not come

stock design supremacy and stock layout

[winged birch]

Maybe it will, maybe it will not.

[winged birch]

Sales 🤣

[verbal solar]

💀

[winged birch]

We shall see.

[verbal solar]

i think the word we can use to describe this keyboard and your brain

is rent free

[verbal solar]

@tranquil void you should copyright strike him

[winged birch]

it is my nft now

[verbal solar]

LOL

[winged birch]

vio already took my bar word for word

[novel pier]

I've been looking at various possible layouts and I think something like this would be [close to] perfect

[verbal solar]

no that is trash

[novel pier]

There's even plenty of space for the lightbar

[verbal solar]

it lacks the third key on the right for no reason and the arrows being down more sucks

[jolly tangle]

last time I tell you to quit trolling. go to general and keep vio and anon out of this.

[verbal solar]

fine

[winged birch]

#🌟│wooting80he message

[novel pier]

"missing" key would allow to keep the lightbar feature and arrows could be in line with other keys

[winged birch]

Funny

https://tenor.com/view/sadgecry-sadge-cry-gif-18423674

[novel pier]

I find 2 columns weird, either go full 3 column wide nav cluster or make it 1 column to save space

[verbal solar]

what the hell do you need a lightbar on a keyboard for lol

[jolly tangle]

#🌟│wooting80he message

[novel pier]

knowing wooting, they might come up with interesting stuff

[winged birch]

It’s to compete with Razer, gotta 1 up them in RGB.

[verbal solar]

eh, i guess that would be pretty cool to indicate loaded profiles, etc if it has that capability, but i prefer no RGB or lights on my stuff

[novel pier]

well, you are definitely not in the majority camp on this one kek

people generally like RGB

I don't care if it's there or not, it can always be turned off

[verbal solar]

you prob have RGB sneakers that light up when you walk, dont you?

[tranquil void]

your snicker bar

[novel pier]

my keeb doesn't have RGB backlight

[tranquil void]

And it's not your bar lmao

[novel pier]

neither does my mouse

neither my headphones

[verbal solar]

was just a joke

[tranquil void]

Rent free inside your head is NOT something you invented
Not your bar

[winged birch]

it is my bar, didn’t u see the little R after it?

[tranquil void]

But I did strike you back with the line you brought to the table, yes.
Your line backfired on you

[winged birch]

copy righted yo

[tranquil void]

unlawful copyright as its not something you originally created

[jolly tangle]

ok you two again. dont do this. off

[winged birch]

#🌟│wooting80he_(warzone)

[magic steppe]

Guys, what do you think about the 80HE? I waited this keyboard since the 60HE came out and I didn't expect it would take sooooo long, and the fist news has been released only since the beginning of the last month. Personally I'm really upset that I waited so long as an idiot to see this form factor and layout. I really don't get why waiting so long, I thought they were making something exceptional but doesn't seems at all... Also, as many people said, one of many cool thing about the 60HE is that you can change case and customize it; with this weird layout seems it will not have the same versatility the 60HE has, instead the TKL is pretty common! Even the gap between the keys and the edges, especially with the F keys, is too much and I don't like it at all.
What's your opinion on the 80HE?

[winged birch]

who?

asked?

[winged birch]

Well TKL isn’t exactly standard either..

[midnight iron]

You can't just drop a tkl into another tkl due to different mountings. So the versatility thing is kind of a niche topic and doesn't work like in the 60%

[winged birch]

I live here man.

[verbal solar]

That's been pretty much the majority thinking I've seen. The post I saw on Reddit was just everyone complaining about the layout.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WootingKB/comments/18too54/wooting_80he_officially_announced/

[midnight iron]

that post is honestly awful

[jolly tangle]

so with everyone you mean maybe 100 people?

[midnight iron]

The layout does suck but the reasonings for why in that post are misguided

they just made up a bunch of lies and said it as fact

[winged birch]

everyone?

[weary knoll]

some comments is reasonable enough tho

[verbal solar]

hey guys, its just a keyboard, stop defending it, if you like it thats fine, but stop trying to discredit other peoples opinions

its an opinion, thats it

[midnight iron]

for sure, there's some reasonable posts, but a lot of people who are honestly just angry that it's ugly

[jolly tangle]

They know people really also want a 75% 😛 and everything else

and a knob

[magic steppe]

I think being angry cause the keyboard doesn't looks good after all this wait is understandable

[verbal solar]

yeah, i want a keyboard, not a DJ deck

[winged birch]

and it is too close to being perfect imo

[midnight iron]

I'm not saying it's not. I'm actually in the camp that thinks the layout isn't the best. A lot of the other reasonings are nonsense though (such as compatibility talk, wooting aiming to make people buy their case etc)

[weary knoll]

imo if it was conventional TKL, we would dicuss about how ugly rgb strip implementation is lol

[jolly tangle]

are you saying it looks bad, or does it look good and you want a different layout?

[verbal solar]

how is that nonsense when their previous product offered exactly that? lol

[winged birch]

TKL sells though, that’s a given. Something new is a risk.

[weary knoll]

most reasonable comment was about next year HE board will come out a lot

[midnight iron]

because compatibility in 75% and tkl doesn't work the same way

60% worked because everything was tray mount 60% with set mounting points

[verbal solar]

there is a standard for 75% cases

80% good luck

[midnight iron]

it's mounting isn't standardized

[weary knoll]

what

[magic steppe]

It looks bad, I don't like it at all. At least it has F keys but it's hard to watch

[midnight iron]

you'd need custom plates made. There isn't really a standard in 75% at all

[verbal solar]

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/?l=product_list&c=44

[midnight iron]

yes and? You'd need custom plates to fit in those

[verbal solar]

look at the plethora of options for 75%, find me some 80% cases with that much selection

[midnight iron]

it's not like the 60% tray mount

[midnight iron]

I don't think you're understanding. Gasket mount 75% and tkl are not like 60% tray mount where you just drop them in

Even if the layout is the same you can't just drop them in

[placid canyon]

They either listen to the community and make the right changes or they will end up delivering and underwhelming product.

[tranquil void]

Even gasket mount 60% would be different

[verbal solar]

depends on the keyboard and case

[midnight iron]

no. it doesn't because unless they're made by the same manu it's often very different mounts and you need custom plates made

[tranquil void]

funnily enough the majority of what you'll will hear is negative replies
The people that are satisfied with it have no reason to complain
that's why it seems there's so many of the negative people here

[magic steppe]

I would discuss about it too cause I don't understand at all this lights randomly placed...

[midnight iron]

For example, geons upcoming raptor 8k rapid trigger pcb. It fits his own geon tkl cases fine, but to put it into the kdbfans tigerlite you have to make a custom plate for it

[verbal solar]

i've seen ones that are drop in

[midnight iron]

yes and none of these upcoming rt boards are drop in.

They're gasket mounted with their own mountings

[verbal solar]

well, thats a design choice, they could have done it differently

[weary knoll]

case $25
plate $40
pcb $75
switch $50

[midnight iron]

Why would you want the inferior mount just for compatibility

[weary knoll]

not bad tbh

[verbal solar]

how exactly is it inferior?

[weary knoll]

alu/cf tkl plate is around that

[midnight iron]

Gasket mount is chosen because it's a nicer typing feel and better sound

[winged birch]

There’s little good options out there for gasket TKL. I said before the only way they could’ve achieved multiple cases for a gasket TKL is if they teamed up with another company that already sells exactly that.

[dense ridge]

@jolly tangleu will understand what he means on the start of orders of 80he... 🙂

[weary knoll]

i assume the worst

[midnight iron]

tray mount isn't as popular now because it doesn't feel or sound as nice

[weary knoll]

so it is TKL HE board with quality ABS case

also 7U

[midnight iron]

you'll find very few tray mount cases in 75% or tkl

[verbal solar]

eh, sound profile and feel can be changed with other mods

[placid canyon]

There surely is some degree of bias, people who complain will always be louder. That being said, can you objectively look at the product and say that it's up to the standard of something like the 60he (or alternatives from other competitors)?

[jolly tangle]

sorry what comment dont you understand?

[midnight iron]

I'm not sure what your argument is? I agree the layout isn't good, but the entire line around compatibility just doesn't work

[dense ridge]

@verbal solari was waiting more then a year for tkl wooting.. what about are u speaking?

[verbal solar]

id rather have the compatibility to change case, as case alone can change the entire feel and sound of the KB much

[midnight iron]

then you'd need to invent your own category that doesn't exist

[winged birch]

There are no good options right now, that’s the problem. 80HE is on the verge of perfection but not quite.

[dense ridge]

@verbal solarits not your bussines

[midnight iron]

because all of the popular cases for tkl are basically not going to fit your wish

[jolly tangle]

bet kbdfans will make a case for the wooting 😄

[winged birch]

Only if there’s demand.

[tranquil void]

Yeah,
It is.
The quality, hardware functionality and software support will be above average like we're used to

The only things some people complain about is that:
A. They're not the target customer
B. They don't like a design choice.

Both don't really have to do with being up to a standard or anything

[weary knoll]

and if i were wooting
i will design conventional tkl with middle port usbc / duaghter
and make it not compatible with other case
so i can milk more money

[verbal solar]

there are cases and keyboards that are already interchangable... hell they run group buys for custom made cases that are dropins lol

[weary knoll]

with my own metal case

[verbal solar]

on geekhack

[weary knoll]

but they chose path of 80he instead

that is my assumption

[tranquil void]

that's exactly what they didn't do with the 60HE.

[midnight iron]

sure, but they're extremely limited and as soon as you go outside of the ones within that small group buy you need a custom plate

[midnight iron]

the bottom line is you'd almost 9/10 times guaranteed to need a custom plate made

[tranquil void]

However to improve on the 60HE they got rid of the screw-in mounting (sound changes a lot due to difference in rigidity on the mounting points, and switched to gasket mounting which doesn't have that issue.

[midnight iron]

Don't get me wrong there is a work around in that wooting or someone could make the plates and sell them, but you'd need to go throug all the popular cases and then figure out the plate etc etc.

[winged birch]

Who do you think is the target customer for the 80HE, just people who like the design?

[midnight iron]

similar to how geon makes custom plates to let people mount pcb into different cases

[tranquil void]

Do they need to be, it's not always a keyboard for the mainstream user.

[tranquil void]

No, people who like the layout
Just accept that you're not the target customer for this product

[winged birch]

Big sales = good for business???

[weary knoll]

in the end, they are private company and do business for profit

i doubt they will update 60he in forseeable future tho

[winged birch]

Interesting view. From my understanding of the stream it was a keyboard for the many not a keyboard for the few but maybe I misunderstood.

[sage reef]

@winged birch you don't understand how internet works.

• first of all, people who're commenting on reddit/twitter/discord represent like 2% of everyone, also those people often have "terminally online" brains.

• it's much more likely that people post negative than positive stuff they agree with on the internet, especially when giving feedback to something.

• not even talking about those 2%, but everyone, almost all people are reactionary, and don't analyze much before posting something (also because it's hard to analyze). But will often come around after a while.

• 80HE still gonna sell a lot, since it's in a sweet spot between gaming and all other uses.

• some yet unannounced attachment will most likely make those arrows look much better (like my example pretty much proves, you forget about some alignment with it).

• covid messed up many

[tranquil void]

If you always make a product marketed for the mainstream user, you'll run out of options to improve on it

that's why they're now trying to make a difference in a less popular market.

[midnight iron]

Honestly custom plate is not even the full thing. If you wanted to move a wooting pcb into another case you'd need to ensure the bounce of the case is minimal

If the gasket mount is designed for traditional keyboards and too bouncy then your rapid trigger would get ruined

[winged birch]

That’s true as long as you have a mainstream option available which I argue they do not.

[tranquil void]

Take the TwoHE,
it's very hard to think of ways to improve that without basically updating the product rather than revolutionising it

[weary knoll]

they probably use hard gasket and stiff plate

or PC plate with dense plate foam also work

[tranquil void]

TwoHE and 60HE are pretty mainstream
The biggest market has always been the fullsize

[weary knoll]

the latter is more possible

[midnight iron]

yeah you'd basically need to make sure gasket is hard and plate is really stiff and not huge amount of room in the case

otherwise you end up with a rapid trigger keyboard in a nice case that can't use rapid trigger without mispresses

[verbal solar]

i wish someone would make rapid trigger topre

[tranquil void]

if some people would run a company wed get the same board with slight updates every year

[winged birch]

The % of positive or negative feedback is mostly accurate with bigger scales as well. It just represents a small portion of people who feel the need to express their praises or concerns.

[verbal solar]

might as well just do the new thing everyone does, if someone doesnt like something, just call them a hater

[winged birch]

TKL has the highest sales over fullsize, I think it was on newegg or some other store, I’ll try to find it.

[tranquil void]

How you feel as a TKL user rn, (left out for this product)
that's how 80% users have felt since 2016

[winged birch]

It’s not 80% btw

[midnight iron]

I do actually wonder if there was a poll, what would the top layout choice be. Would it be 75% non exploded, 75% exploded or tkl

[verbal solar]

I'm sure the 10 of you are happy rn.

[tranquil void]

minor detail

[tranquil void]

It's really not that little.

[winged birch]

I asked Calder that as well, just do a poll to see opinions.

[tranquil void]

you're just salty because Wooting didn't slap HE switches in a Wooting One and sold it to you for 239.99

[winged birch]

I’m not salty at all if you’re talking to me

[placid canyon]

Doesn't B imply A? I 100% agree about what you said about hardware/software (and also great firmware), but I feel like the main selling point of Wooting products so far has been being innovative. But when you deliver a product with an LED strip as a cost-saving measure to fill the gap that an odd form factor ends up causing (instead of adding a knob or an OLED, or simply going for a compact 75%), I fail to see what makes it a unique product. You can't just say "if you don't like the product, you are not the target audience", Wooting willingly decided to go out of their way to take design decisions that people here haven't been asking for and as a result they shrinked the target audience, but I doubt that this outcome was intentional.

[tranquil void]

Cost saving measure? Or a feature?

OLED is gimmicky on keyboards, a light can be "read" in the edges of your view.

There are things that are yet unrevealed, wait for them

Or talk to Calder, at one point he'll leak them 😉

[midnight iron]

I assume given the talk so far that we'll see what the unrevealed thing is by founder's campaign, since there's too many question marks about layout without it

[tranquil void]

managed to leak the name 20 minutes before the unveil lol

[placid canyon]

I can sort of see the LED strip being used left-to-right to show different levels of hall effect steps when actuating.

[weary knoll]

what key tho

[placid canyon]

but this could also be implemented with a decent lcd/oled with better results

[winged birch]

Interesting, you can see if someone has blocked you if you can’t add a reaction on their message. 🤣

[tranquil void]

more expensive and what do you gain

You're never going to read from a screen that's placed there

[verbal solar]

the only light a keyboard should have is a caps lock, numlock and numpad light, imo

[tranquil void]

A coloured light is easy to see while focusing on your screen
I tried the OLED (closer to screen) on apex pro but it's not doable

you're simply not going to focus on your screen and the OLED on the keyboard at the same time

[winged birch]

Placed there is a bit awkward I agree, the screen on the Apex Pro was very useful though.

[placid canyon]

you can show driverless settings of what is saved on the onboard memory in regards to actuation range and sensitivity. You can have better visual granularity compared to the 10 LEDs that make the strip

[tranquil void]

very hard to actually use

[placid canyon]

you can do a lot

[winged birch]

This is true also.

[verbal solar]

do you remember that logitech gaming keyboard with the flip up screen?

that trend died off for a reason

[tranquil void]

just create saved profiles
You can select the settings exactly how you want it and make 4 configurations that are perfect

[verbal solar]

that stuff is useless for the majority of ppl

[winged birch]

Apex Pro’s screen? The opposite, it was very straightforward and easy to use.

[tranquil void]

On the SS screen you can't do as much as in the software

[tranquil void]

Use as informational screen while gaming? nah

[winged birch]

Best execution of Multimedia in a keyboard I’ve seen so far.

[verbal solar]

lmaoooo

[tranquil void]

more central and easier to see yes

[verbal solar]

yeah, why did they die off?

[midnight iron]

g15 screen was goated actually. It was amazing to see who was talking on ventrilo at a time when 2nd monitors weren't common

[verbal solar]

it was a dumb trend

[winged birch]

No, you can see your profile on it, music song, volume etc.

[tranquil void]

Good overlays

[midnight iron]

It died off because people didn't need screens on keyboards anymore

the actual display was amazing before 2nd monitors were a thing though

[tranquil void]

kbscreen is hard because you're not going to be able to be focusing on screen and reading shit off kbscreen at the same time

A coloured LED would be an easier solution
Now you have multiple ig

[verbal solar]

2nd monitor was around far before that dumb keyboard

[midnight iron]

yeah but a lot less common back in the day

were you around during the g15 popularity days?

[tranquil void]

that is true

[verbal solar]

once LCD hit, everyone had dual display

[tranquil void]

and it was a more expensive solution

[midnight iron]

er no

[tranquil void]

🤔

[midnight iron]

lcd was insanely expensive at that time. I know, I had the mitsubishi diamond lcd at the time and that tiny thing was absurdly overpriced

2nd monitors were not at all common

[verbal solar]

yes they were

[midnight iron]

especially with crt taking up so much room as primary monitor for most

[tranquil void]

I don't even have a second monitor rn

[verbal solar]

neither do i

have you guys ever worked in an office?

[midnight iron]

for who? I literally can count the number of people on one hand that I knew that had a 2nd monitor at that time

[tranquil void]

2nd monitor what's that

[buoyant solstice]

Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide

[tranquil void]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

[verbal solar]

go work any office job, even back in the 90s they had quad, triple... lcd displays setup in nearly every office job

[midnight iron]

what? Are you thinking stock traders

Pixel may I ask, how old are you? This sounds like someones imagination of what the 90s were like

[verbal solar]

anyone working with spreadsheets, it, etc.. pretty much every office worker

[winged birch]

If there’s no war channel topic does not matter. 💯

[midnight iron]

everyone working on spreadsheets etc did not have second monitors at the time lol

[verbal solar]

i use to do on the road work for a tech company, visisted tons of offices, they were everywhere

[midnight iron]

especially not at home which is where a gaming keyboard would even be used

[tranquil void]

1⃣

I have 1 Wooting One
2 wooting Two
60 Wooting 60HE
UwU Wooting UwU??

[midnight iron]

Oh so in silicon valley type tech companies in particular the workers had double monitors in the 90s?

[verbal solar]

well, my original statement was they were very common... if you consider a bedroom a common place to measure dual display use... you might need to rethink things...

[midnight iron]

this is the most bizarre reach to prove a point ever

now we're limited to tech companies in the 90s. Not even general office workers. Tech companies in the 90s at work

[verbal solar]

limited? i said thats where multiple displays are commonly used, not your gamer bedroom lol

[midnight iron]

no, dual monitors are quite common for a lot of people nowadays

[verbal solar]

but this is offtopic... anyways

[midnight iron]

even in bedrooms/desks at home

[verbal solar]

i never said they werent

[midnight iron]

which is different from the 90s when g15 and such were a thing

[verbal solar]

youre actually the one who was saying they were common lol

[midnight iron]

what?

[verbal solar]

thats when i said they were, but here you are back to saying they were common now

[midnight iron]

I said dual monitors were not common during the g15 keyboard days.

hence why g15 keyboards were really neat

[verbal solar]

here ya go bud

[midnight iron]

yes, did you misread the sentence?

[verbal solar]

and i said office workers, then you moved the goal posts

[winged birch]

https://tenor.com/view/1917-explosion-running-war-movie-gif-18770469

[winged birch]

This channel.

[silk hedge]

you're not helping

[midnight iron]

I get the feeling you might have misread because you just quoted a sentence of me saying the opposite

the expression 'on one hand' means not common

[verbal solar]

they were extremely commong, you asked who, i said office use

[midnight iron]

again. Tech workers in the 90s is not common.

[silk hedge]

anyways it's 3rd of january, wooting staff is back in office, hope we get some info soon

[verbal solar]

you must not be aware of the dot com bubble

or when the internet took off lol

[midnight iron]

i mean, I lived through it so yeah.

[verbal solar]

dot-com bubble, period (1995–2000) of large, rapid, and ultimately unsustainable increases in the valuation of stock market shares in Internet service and technology companies,

give me a break, just stop

[magic steppe]

Long ago in 2023 wooting made a post on Twitter where they asked "which layout would you like between a 60% and 100%?" (or something similar) And only ±20 people answered and SEEMS they took the feedback of only this 20 people. So now saying that the negative feedback doesn't count cause are just a small part (they aren't a small part) who wants to say something and everybody else who stay silent is happy about it is a🐂💩!
The world sucks, mostly know it and just few takes action! that's just an example.
Saying that you can't do many things with form factor is for people who doesn't have any idea, so give space who got vision and listen to them.
The wooting is special and it's the best for its technology that put it on top on the world of any other keyboard in the market, so it's not a product for a tiny group of people.

[midnight iron]

Just because there was a tech boom doesn't mean everyone lies in the tech world in the 90s lol

this entire conversation is such a reach

[verbal solar]

"again. Tech workers in the 90s is not common. " "Just because there was a tech boom doesn't mean everyone lies in the tech world in the 90s lol"

lmaooo im done with you, i give up

[midnight iron]

tech boom = does not equal the entire population

it's a minority of people. Do you think everyone lived in silicon valley in the 90s?

this entire argument reads like someone who is googling what the 90s was like

[winged birch]

And I am annoying

[jolly tangle]

its a great time to get into tech

[winged birch]

Jezus

[silk hedge]

are you comparing world issues with a keyboard design?

[magic steppe]

No, someone said that people who speaks are the only one who are upset. My example means that the people who are upset aren't the only one who speak

[verbal solar]

🤯

this channel has made my morning

[winged birch]

Welcome to 80HE Battle Royale

[midnight iron]

for real. I don't think kids growing up nowadays realize how great it is

they never experienced parents disconnecting them from their game so they could make a phone call

[verbal solar]

the rich kids had dual dial up lines, could play all day and use the phone

i wasnt one of them

[winged birch]

#🔌│tech 🤣

[midnight iron]

pass. That place is more volatile than here, just say the word apple and watch it blow up

[winged birch]

#🔌│tech is what he meant. 🤦‍♂️

[midnight iron]

on topic though, was there ever a layout poll? I'd be very curious to see whether this community skews towards tkl or 75%

[winged birch]

There wasn’t sadly.

[midnight iron]

those are for sure the top 2 layouts, but which one though seems to depend on community type

[winged birch]

Maybe soon?

[viscid owl]

Wooting Alice layout when?

[verbal solar]

didnt they have a feedback/opinion thread on reddit for it?

i could have sworn i saw one, maybe a different brand im thinking

[midnight iron]

reddit is bad spot for polls, they just get brigaded unfortunately

[jolly tangle]

I wouldn't get your hopes up for a layout change

with 20 days left before preorders

However... who knows what comes next

[midnight iron]

the worst time to mistype the word wouldn't

[supple ember]

yeah holding out for some more info to drop

[jolly tangle]

oops hahahaha

[midnight iron]

yeah I would assume any feedback now would go towards the next board they make, there's no way any company would want to pivot this late

[supple ember]

i mean tbh is there even a point in making a tkl or even 75 wooting kb once they release the 80he

[midnight iron]

most logical route would be a revamp 2.0 the year after

so like you do 80he one year and then renew a 2.0 with all the changes people wanted

[tranquil void]

there is

[supple ember]

lol the changes beeing?

[tranquil void]

But after 80HE, my dream is a 60HE with a numpad next to it

[supple ember]

if you make a tkl the 75 crowd is gonna be pissed, if u make a 75 the tkl crowd is gonna be pissed

[midnight iron]

honestly mostly just a minor layout change and maybe more plate options

[tranquil void]

It's the compact keyboard ive been dreaming of

[tranquil void]

damn, you understand the concept

[midnight iron]

yeah but 75 vs tkl is kind of a minor war thing. People will be annoyed but still accept that the other layout isn't the worst

[supple ember]

so why even bother

[midnight iron]

because it's a bigger market honestly

of course we still haven't seen whatever this addon thing is though

Honestly my best guess as to what happened is they just had a bit of the blinders on focusing on other problems with the keyboard building and somewhere along the way didn't realize how many people would be so against an inefficient looking 75% layout

[ancient breach]

Maybe I shouldn't repeat myself like this but I still think this is a bad tradeoff.
Of course smaller 75% layouts have trade offs keycap compatibility for one, the smaller brick sized one may cause misclicks for some people.
The larger ones still have the keycap compatibility issue and some akward arrow key alignment visually.

The 80he's layout does not really fix the awkward arrow alignment, yes align fine vertically but not horizontally.
Key cap compatibility is mostly fixed I will grant you that.
However width wise you are really treading into tkl territory.
Still misses keys from tkl 3 of them to be precise, while some will hardly be missed, or all by some of the users. 4 if you count the mode key.
not having both a full nav cluster and a delete is still a trade-off as is not having either a menu or right winkey/meta (especially for those that disable the left one)

At that points the pro's of this over tkl are mostly limited to is different and a little bit less wide. It is still most of the way there in terms of width, so why not go for the safer option?
If it were the millionth keyboard using cherry clones and limited software I would definitely understand, but Wooting has other selling points, a more unique design.

While I can definitely understands, a group existing that does not care about these keys, who does not care about the arrow key alignment those may be happy sure.
Still I think overall this is kind of a niche of a niche layout where the reason it is not used more often is more, because it makes little sense, rather than nobody thought of this.
TKL would also have offered a direct upgrade path tho a somewhat aging keyboard this does not.

edit: had to cut some part out stupid char limit

As for the 60HE paved the way for 60% popularity, 60% has a clear niche of being the smallest viable keyboard as long as you use fn layers. Coupled with good software to do so.
This benefit

Of course it will fill a niche of people that do like it, but if it were me I would have gone a different direction, maybe making this a one-off / smaller release down the line.

This will be all from my front, don't get me wrong I don't hate wooting for doing it, just think it's not the brightest move, that's all.

[supple ember]

https://tenor.com/view/wesker-albert-albert-wesker-resident-evil-resident-evil-4-gif-5143688443782660001

[midnight iron]

Functionally the keyboard is honestly fine I'm sure most would agree. Has all the keys you might want for 99% of people, so it's kind of understandable that it might not be so obvious at first that it would incite so much passion

Keyboard people just really care about aesthetics lol

[silk hedge]

imo the aesthetics arent even bad

[midnight iron]

yeah I have some 'normie' friends who saw it and said it looks fine

I just really hope the add on thing is cool.

[silk hedge]

yeah same

also did you just call me a normie...

[midnight iron]

i don't think there's any normies that exist in this discord

[silk hedge]

https://tenor.com/view/scuffed-bill-gates-soy-soyboy-sbg-scuffed-bill-gif-16114076

[ancient breach]

addon may change things, but unless it requires specifically this layout, I see it as a different subject.
Also not really a keyboard enthusiast, more of a everything is a tool kind of guy.

[silk hedge]

but the tools have to look pretty

[midnight iron]

I just want it to balance out that spot aesthetically. Kind of like the vento tkl photo I showed earlier

[silk hedge]

yeah the wavy addon looks nice

[winged birch]

I don’t see the addon being worth the wrongs with the board but we’ll see.

[tranquil void]

the addon is @crimson quiver's unholy creation

[midnight iron]

if you have something there in that blank spot it could completely save the layout to look very neat, or even add a slider or other such things

[tranquil void]

credit: untamed

[winged birch]

ManaBanker actually proposed the most interesting idea for the addon thing so far.

[crimson quiver]

the future is now and the future is knobs

[tranquil void]

fr untamed hmu if you ever have a prototype lol

[winged birch]

Some magnetically attached thingy

[midnight iron]

untamed about to flux keyboard you. Take $5 million in seed money and run off

[tranquil void]

seed?

[winged birch]

He has an ss of it

[tranquil void]

ss?

hopefully not the german one

[winged birch]

Am I ManaBanker?

[midnight iron]

yeah just 'investor/early buy in' money basically

[winged birch]

Jezus

Nono, I have a great ss

I do. I did.

I think it’s great.

[crimson quiver]

would need to remake the switch itself

[winged birch]

Vio’s creation.

[winged birch]

You made this?

[crimson quiver]

yea i was board

[winged birch]

That is actually genius.

You think it’d hold up in practice?

[crimson quiver]

would require very tight tolance and not sure how molding the internal spiral would work out in the machining proccess i assume there is a better way

[tranquil void]

choose your fighte

[winged birch]

It’s a really interesting concept.

[tranquil void]

I mean yeah the actually creating the thing part is going to be the hardest part

[winged birch]

The stopping part or preventing overturning the knob would be the hardest part. Thin plastic like that is pretty fragile

When torque is applied

[tranquil void]

but add 2 end stops and you're fine

unless you go full monke mode without sensitivity in your fingertips

[crimson quiver]

found it this was from my old project i played around with when learning blender
https://discordapp.com/channels/167181566978555904/1145106399358103633

[winged birch]

Not quite as turning the knob puts force on those pins even if it’d hit an endstop. Knobs are hard to get durable, really.

[tranquil void]

Sure, so don't monke brain it

The best knobs are bigger, because that allows them to be stronger lol

A switch is veri smol

[winged birch]

Those pins would snap with normal use. You’d need those pins to not tank the torque when they can’t move down anymore.

Def a great concept though

[crimson quiver]

could go with an internal screw design that has loose fitting for up/down insted of a guiding rail or what ever i used

[winged birch]

That could work, screw thread is a lot stronger than those pins.

And friction is not a problem when u have lube

There are many concepts for rotational motion to linear motion with different characteristics.

[tranquil void]

Not necessarily, depends on how they're designed etc. sure it would be easy to overpower them but a light stop would work. especially if that's just where the thread ends

[winged birch]

In that design a stop wouldn’t work like I said. Because even with a stop, over rotating puts downwards force on the pins.

[tranquil void]

If you want to break it you can always break it

Sometimes you need to feel things.

[winter coral]

trick is endless scrolling / turning. at some point it goes up again and vice versa

You could add a small bumper to give the feeling that you have reached an end.

[winged birch]

🤦‍♂️

[winter coral]

https://ams.com/AS5600

contactless - nothing to break directly

[winged birch]

It’s different from untamed’s idea

[open lintel]

yo for the 80 he does anyone know the secret thinh the 4 keys do

they hyped it up in the stream

[winged birch]

Not something the 4 keys do

but an add on or something

but nobody know yet.

[winter coral]

attachable finger warmer

[open lintel]

oh

[winged birch]

(real)

[open lintel]

do we know anything other than the layout and the zinc alloy?

colors? price? new features?

[winged birch]

nothing

🤣

[open lintel]

lovely

was going to buy the 60he but guess I’ll wait

and see what the 80 is all about

[winged birch]

Campaign will be this month, price and features will be known by then I assume.

[midnight iron]

Black is the launch color

[winged birch]

Add on hopefully as well but not sure

[midnight iron]

That’s all we know though for the zinc alloy case

[open lintel]

hopefully they make an orange version

i’m not exactly profecient in spray painting

i’m a bit of an ape

[midnight iron]

Yeah I want to get it coated locally, but still deciding since coating in kr is super pricy

[open lintel]

same here for egypt

and it’s not exactly great quality coating either

[silk hedge]

Im so glad the zink alloy releases in black

[open lintel]

i’m not I’d rather have something in orange to match my lamzu thorn and my cables and such

i have a gk61 that I’m planning to spray paint but its not aluminum so idk

i got durock v2 stabs for the wooting and I was going to buy the tofu redux in orange along with a 60he literally the same day they annouced the 80he

good thing my bank had problems lmao

if the 80he is parp I’ll just get the mod007he

since arrow keys and frow are important to me

i have a tkl on my desk along with my gk61 for that reason, would be nice to only have one keyboard

[jolly tangle]

this mod007he screams like a cheap knockoff

I dont see any innovation

[sage reef]

probably gonna be something smaller tho, but maybe possible to make custom ones after.

[midnight iron]

Have they updated the firmware for that yet. I know the early reviews for the mod007 had a ton of issues with buggy software

[sage reef]

it will be hard to make custom addons tho, since metal would be bent around the edge and follow the middle side, so that magnet can stick it better, without having too big magnet and interfere with HE

[silk hedge]

I like the wave design

[winged birch]

I doubt it leaves room for custom aftermarket third party add ons. I think it’s just Wooting’s add on(s) and that’s it.

[sage reef]

cosmetic. but yeah, it's too much of a speculation, probably gonna be something very different

[winter coral]

cosmetic would make it even more childish - rgb + button badge

[sage reef]

magnet doesn't have to go all the way like down how it's there, can start like from where Up key starts
they made case compartment big like this cause it's easier to make

[winter coral]

"This is TK's keyboard"

anyway. lets wait

[silk hedge]

I cant wait i need atleast a teaser

[winged birch]

https://tenor.com/view/xqc-slam-slam-desk-desk-slam-xqc-slam-gif-19145485

[verbal solar]

helo 75% please

[silk hedge]

https://tenor.com/view/austin-powers-dr-evil-how-gif-19601238

[sage reef]

The best material for magnetic shielding is any ferromagnetic metal. This includes materials that contain iron, nickel, or cobalt.

These materials have high magnetic permeability, meaning they can easily absorb and redirect magnetic fields.
maybe they block it somehow like that, so it doesn't interfere with HE switches

so they make that magnet piece with already some iron attached to it facing switches

[vagrant haven]

Doesn’t every switch have a magnet? So would they need any special consideration at all with a case magnet?

[buoyant solstice]

Theoretically speaking - Yes, other magnets can cause issues if not properly placed and of a strengh that doesn't interfere.

We've had a few cases where folks with magnetized gaming desks have had some interference on switches on the 60HE and 2HE.

[sage reef]

should probably work

1. don't use a very strong magnet, and instead curve addon around ledge to stick to the side better
2. align poles so they're diagonally pointed (like from one corner of a cube to another crossing center, just not as aggressively). this will keep addon in place and also not point at any switches directly
3. isolate magnet with iron on the sides that are not needed for addon to stick

For delicate electronics or low field strength, MuMetal may provide superior shielding than steel.
so probably that instead

[sage reef]

4. maybe some re-calibration possible, option to recalibrate in wootility and save to kb (after changing cases or something), but might be too much work to factory-calibrate when manufacturing.

[south steppe]

Im one of the very few people that actually use the 2 buttons that are missing on the right side of the 80HE (next to pg up / pg down) so i will be holding off on this specific keyboard. But i do think its a great design that would fit something for me if i was solely a gamer. 👌

[sage reef]

you use all 6 buttons? if not, the extra keycaps will follow and you can easily remap by dragging and dropping in wootility

[buoyant solstice]

This is where key layers would come into play, unless you really use each key often for software that needs it.

I have page up and down on FN+W and S, Insert on FN + Q (and so on)

[south steppe]

• its just a personal preference but i don’t enjoy key layers. THATS JUST ME nothing wrong with them.

[buoyant solstice]

Totally fair.

[south steppe]

Yea when coding and working with my telescope

I learned Linux and even thought i don’t use it anymore mouseless navigation is something i use when coding

[sage reef]

you can tho just Ctrl + Arrow key doing same function as Home and End pretty much

[south steppe]

80HE Keyboard has home and End

[sage reef]

it also has Ins and Del on exactly those same places, just easily change keycaps that follow with order, and very easily remap with wootility and save to keyboard, don't have to run wootility in background.

[buoyant solstice]

Well it has four of the six buttons. You get the keycaps for all of them, so you can pick which two to have dedicated yourself.

[south steppe]

I see

Interesting glad its at least available

[dense ridge]

imagine a tkl keyboard with the same wooting 60he case design... it would be a dream

I don't understand why it was necessary to change a successful design and also make a risky layout

[tight cypress]

To stand still is to fall behind, and as for now it's the competition who is desperately trying to imitate Wooting with HE keebs, so... I can see why risky moves now may be beneficial in the future

[dense ridge]

You can't invent a bike multiple times! and to think that such an ugly 80he can be a success is stupid! also against the background of competitors who are releasing new keyboards one after another. It's a strange way of doing business for me.

Coming up with new technologies is one thing.. coming up with unnecessary and ugly things is another thing.

[tight cypress]

Personally I like 80he's design If I weren't so reliant on a numpad I'd go with it instead of 2he

[faint granite]

What is or is not ugly is an opinion and not fact.

[dense ridge]

@faint granite there are concepts of symmetry and accepted norms in the community. If you don't understand this, then I have nothing to talk about with you.

[faint granite]

@tight cypress above proves my point. People will like the design, people will hate the design. If you do not understand this, then you have no business talking with anyone.

[dense ridge]

@faint granitethat is why it is necessary to make a design that will be relatively neutral and fresh and will be liked by almost everyone. This is the task of a designer in companies

[faint granite]

Just going to agree to disagree at this point. The fact of the matter is that the design of the keyboard being liked is an opinion and everyone has their own. The people who are going to jump on the 80he like the board and/or Wooting as a whole.

That's the benefit of having your own money. Spend it where you want. I don't see why Wooting coming out with a new product has so many people bent out of shape.

[tight cypress]

I do

[faint granite]

@tight cypress likes it as do a number of other people who have voiced their opinion on the fact.

Tbh I think it should be right aligned with the other keys.

But I'm not in their target audience because I have no need for the rest of the keys. 60 is fine for me.

[tight cypress]

There's just enough space for pinkie on the right side, I wouldn't mind shifting arrows to right by this 0.25u or so, but I like current design too

[dense ridge]

I'm just saying that successful companies should calculate the risks! Have you seen Apple release a triangular-shaped smartphone? many people may like the design! is not it so? The only thing is that in a competitive environment there are already certain norms and concepts! what is beautiful and what is not beautiful! Wooting knew that tens of thousands of customers were waiting for the TKL keyboard! but at the same time, they ignored the opinion of their customers and released some kind of incomprehensible and controversial product! Time will tell! The number of sales will tell! thats it

[humble cargo]

he probably already used chatgpt for it

[dense ridge]

sure

[humble cargo]

people be writing a thesis on why they won't be buying x product

[dense ridge]

ofc no

[dense ridge]

i was waiting for this product more then a year

[humble cargo]

am sure wooting are well aware of peoples concerns by now

[faint granite]

Time will tell.

[tight cypress]

What is beautiful and what's not is entirely subjective And I'm pretty sure if Apple would release triangular smartphone, not only it's fans would buy it, but also cope hard on forums...

[dense ridge]

@faint granitesure! lets finish on this note

[verbal solar]

I’d cop dat shit inna heartbeat 💯

[dense ridge]

Apple will never do that

[winter coral]

I have to add one positive point to my list #🌟│wooting80he message.
The low typing angle for long working / gaming sessions.

[humble cargo]

80HE will do your TKL job just fine, people are just salty because it doesn't look exactly like they wanted

[dense ridge]

it looks horrible!

[humble cargo]

too much vanity in this community

[verbal solar]

The form factor is weird but aye man, it has F keys so I love it

I like da lil lightbar too

I think it’ll grow on people when it drops fr

[tight cypress]

I dunno, UwU also is not meant for the general public, but for certain niche, 80HE seems to be similar, but that niche seems to be quite bigger

[humble cargo]

uwu was a pointless product to 99% of keyboard buyers but somehow its launch didn't have half the controversy

[dense ridge]

I really don't understand! and I would really like to get an answer from the founders! if you already have a successful example of 60 he! why did you need to change the design? make some risky layouts! when would it be possible to just make a TKL version with the same design? which one brought success to your company? and only then, when sales would have started to fall, would the HE2 versions have been made both 60 and TKL versions with a completely new but relatively neutral design?

[jolly tangle]

@tight cypress https://www.melgeek.com/products/melgeek-mojopad-retro-numpad-mechanical-keyboard-melgeek-com

[tranquil void]

"if you already have a successful example of 60he"

why would they make another 60HE

[jolly tangle]

👀

[dense ridge]

60he but in TKL

[tranquil void]

You mean a OneHE

[dense ridge]

chatgpt

[tranquil void]

tbh ive had you in my dms before
quit being insufferable

[humble cargo]

they've already explained they wanted to try something new and not copypasta a layout already done a hundred times

[nova nexus]

Chill out. This is not the channel to argue or insult each other.

[tight cypress]

It's nice If only it wasn't wireless...

[jolly tangle]

its optional

also cable

[verbal solar]

wapid twiggew

[vagrant haven]

I don’t think anyone really minded the UwU because it was clearly a VERY niche product and one that was made into a good meme. Plus the design of it is incredibly sleek for what it is.

[heavy flax]

i will never understand how some of you guys get so mad over people saying they dont like the layout

[vagrant haven]

80HE was teased as the answer to something that had been asked so much that it “needs to stop” and then it launched with a less-than-perfect layout in many people’s eyes. So it received more criticism.

I don’t think anyone is going to make the argument of the 80HE being functionally bad. But there’s definitely an argument for it looking subjectively off, as many people have voiced.

Which the wooting team is aware of, they said in the launch announcement there would be a further announcement to justify the arrow key placement. But imo an addon shouldn’t fix the base product, it should add to it. But it remains to be seen and I might be misinterpreting, so I’m just looking to wooting to see what happens. If I end up liking it, I’ll buy it; if I don’t like it, I won’t buy it. Currently I’m leaning towards not buying it, but I’m open minded.

[vagrant haven]

My money is either swappable side modules, like a knob module or slider module. Or an additional processor module that allows for beyond 1000hz polling rate.

(I personally don’t think beyond 1000hz is a biggy, but it’s all the rage right now and if any keyboard has the speed to make use of 1000hz+, it’s wooting)

That or they just mill strap slot straight through it and that makes the arrow keys centered based off the strap slot. Which could totally be possible since that could have been a late addition to the tooling or a post processing step not present in the prototypes they showed. But if that’s the case they trolled the booty off us with that

[weary knoll]

0% chance

[vagrant haven]

I’d give the strap a 10% chance honestly.

[grizzled cove]

huffing copium

[vagrant haven]

Although strap on the mouse side would be a real blunder

[humble cargo]

higher polling is pointless snake oil

doubt we'll see wooting indulge in that

[placid whale]

Wooting 80Hz

[past cape]

I haven't voiced my opinion on the 80He yet so here I go. I've been using the Two HE since it's release now. I am glad the 80He is smaller so it will free up Desk/ Mousespace for FPS games mainly.

I like the inclusion of arrow keys as I use them in a bunch of games I play (Trials, Trackmania, etc.) where the analog control actually makes a huge difference in how you can play them (throttle control, gradual leaning, etc.) which is also why I skipped the 60HE.

I couldn't care less wether or not the arrow keys are alligned or not, but I feel like it would be better if they were a bit seperated from the rest of the keys like they are on the Two HE or other TKLs, just to make it easier to place your hand/not hit other keys by accident etc. but I haven't tried it obviously.

Overall looking great though, will definitely order one when the founders campaign starts 🙂

[hexed dawn]

not that I disagree, but also why the hell not

but I guess it will fall out of style eventually as people realize it doesn't improve anything

[vagrant haven]

Honestly yeh on wired products the inclusion of the option doesn’t hurt. But I feel like it’d probably be difficult to do as much processing as the wooting does at 8khz. But I’m also not a hardware or software engineer so who knows.

I will say on the user perspective, you wouldn’t notice a difference, and you could potentially run into game compatibility issues, but it’d be optional so who cares. And if you wanna be unequivocally the fastest, that would be objectively the fastest.

[tranquil void]

eh unless people start overclocking chipsets

[vagrant haven]

But I ultimately agree 8khz is pointless. Not harmful as an option. But never worth paying notably more for it as a feature

[tight cypress]

What's the point of 8k polling, if the device doesn't even polls at 8000Hz most of the time?

[placid whale]

We always like to mention that a higher than 1000hz polling rate is only popular due to gaming mice benefitting from it, as there is actually more information to be shared within those 1000 polls per second
but it is very unlikely for a keyboard to have different information to communicate every <1ms

That said, most keyboards cannot even communicate a different key state every 1ms due to debounce or the time it takes to scan every key (among other things)
1000hz is fast enough for keyboards, higher scanning would be a flex, and higher polling rate without scanning would be marketing numbers

[vagrant haven]

In mice it’s basically the polling rate cap, but your mouse only sends information if there’s information to send. So if you don’t move your mouse more than 1 count in 1/8000th of a second then it isn’t worth it. So ironically a lot of the mouse enthusiasts that drool for 8khz use 800 dpi and fail to go beyond maybe 2khz.

But even if you do saturate 8khz the difference is immeasurable even when using a 500hz monitor at 1000fps, according to tests by OptimumTech. 2khz polling did show improvement in his testing, and iirc 4khz is the point where you’re within margin of error whether there is benefit or not.

[hexed dawn]

on the risk of sounding like an utter nooblord, why would someone go over like 2000dpi ? I have best results on 1600dpi with acceleration turned off, no pixel skipping on 360fps. putting it any higher than that, I'd have to artificially make it slower on the operating system. that'd introduce its own jitter I'd wager

[vagrant haven]

I can’t imagine what benefit there’d be in 8khz polling for keebs in actual use. I guess you can know your keyboard reacts 7/8ths of a ms faster than others?

[vagrant haven]

Literally copium. I mean 4khz you can say “if there is a benefit then I’m getting it” but 8khz is literally just wasting battery life.
But if you got on r/mousereviews, it’s just people claiming it’s a night and day difference between 4khz and 8khz, when science don’t work that way

[humble cargo]

people will claim all kinds of shit

[ancient breach]

Often the end goal is to go one step up from the cap of having a perceivable difference. That way you can be certain it won't matter.

If the cap is 2k then 4k makes sense as a safe margin and end-goal.

[humble cargo]

like every other fortnite kid on reddit has superhuman reflexes an insignificant fraction of humanity has

[vagrant haven]

Which is why a 4khz would be justifiable, even if marginal

[hexed dawn]

and they'll think it's real too. if you really want a particular result, you will feel it. I've had it happen so many times, I change an audio effect thinking "wow this is really subtle" and then realize it's turned off

[vagrant haven]

But 8khz is just killing your battery on wireless. Its actually a huge hindrance to qol having to charger 8x more often

[humble cargo]

"I totally notice sub-millisecond differences you guys, big time"

[ancient breach]

I personally have my mouse at 2k dpi most of the time, as that is what I like most in desktop use. In games I just adjust my sensitivity acordingly.

[hexed dawn]

yeah I read that!! why can you even put these to 666 gorillion dpi. I guess it's just an unscientific claim to sensor quality, marketing

[vagrant haven]

I like vaxee’s polling rate implementation. It’s basically polling rate redundancy, so it’s 1khz but if it fails to transmit it can send up to 3 more attempts in the regular time.
So you get the comparability of 1khz, the battery life of ~2khz, and “stability” of 4khz.
(In their “competitive mode”)

[hexed dawn]

you know, that sounds like a sound way to use the bandwidth

like why the hell not. it's there, might as well use it for something

[winter coral]

"We are internalizing the feedback and thinking what to do next." on Twitter. I would like to express my respect that you have officially announced an analysis.

[hexed dawn]

file the numpad off this thing and you have my money

[spark hound]

Not with those keycaps by default

[hexed dawn]

sure. just with the ARM gubbins. and the company making money if I buy one.

[ancient breach]

Still using my wooting one, or rather replaced it with the one I got that actually has a ansi layout

[hexed dawn]

Wooting One HE or whatever. I don't speak for the majority of people, but that is what I would like

[ancient breach]

I wouldn't mind that either

[spark hound]

The Korean one?

[ancient breach]

nor would I mind a updated design.

yea

[spark hound]

Mine is still sealed...

[ancient breach]

replaced the keycaps and springs on both and lubed the korean one

The bottom keycaps were just a cheap set to try if I liked such a profile, did not care much about the looks

[winter coral]

I've been liking this recently...

[spark hound]

Looks low profile

[ancient breach]

My conculsion was meh they are not great

While I like the idea of low profile keycaps having a gap between keys is pretty important. The current ma profile set is much nicer to type on, even if I agree it does not match the base keyboard's design but that's just looks anyway.

[wooden ferry]

what’s different about the korean one?

[ancient breach]

Not much about the keyboard itself other than the default keycaps.
But there was a whole story behind them with distribution falling through and wooting buying them back.
They were sold for cheaper on the store and later given away at a meetup last year.

[wooden ferry]

oo i see, thank you for explaining

[nocturne garnet]

as someone who genuinely wants a wooting with a function row and no numpad -- someone who is intending to buy this when it's available -- this may seem like a weird/dumb question but

there are far too many different keyboard designs for wooting to create enough keyboard variations to satisfy everyone. but these are designed for gaming first -- so why not produce a gaming keypad like the tartarus or g13 and just let the typing enthusiast market buy whatever exotic keyboard designs they want to type with?

[nocturne garnet]

well the competition is already pretty pricey. but that wont stop people from complaining about prices.

[tranquil void]

ansi superiority 🗿

[humble cargo]

gross

[tranquil void]

Will there be an option for a material colour 80HE case or do I bribe the Wooters

[humble cargo]

ansi just for simpleton alphabets that ends at z

[tight cypress]

But... AltGr...

[vagrant haven]

I think they said on release it would just be black, they may have mentioned a white zinc case 70% chance im miss remembering.
Though they said they’d consider color options in response to demand and sales.

[tranquil void]

no no ion want colour

no dye, just do all the surface treatments everything but no dyeing

why dye when you can have the natural colour

[heavy flax]

will switch options be provided

[verbal solar]

no info

[jolly tangle]

Do I spot one color question from vio

👀

[fallow spire]

hey

How many people are on here?

[dense ridge]

me

[late whale]

Morning

[fallow spire]

Okay, I'm going to open a livestream in a moment. throw some things in the ring.

[grizzled cove]

fortnite cheeseburger

[coral patrol]

on yt?

[dense ridge]

in discord i think

[verbal solar]

on youtube

[dense ridge]

@verbal solaron the main wooting channel ?

[verbal solar]

im guessing

[dense ridge]

no, the stream will be here i think

[verbal solar]

where do you stream on discord?

[digital blade]

that already streamed eso

[verbal solar]

bro

im showing where the streams are

on their youtube like it usually is

[glad fable]

ooh?

[dense ridge]

in general chit chat for example by sharing the screen

[glad fable]

glad I opened the chat randomly and saw that message

[verbal solar]

jilj ur fucking with me right

[late whale]

So is it on the yt?

Kekw

[digital blade]

probably, im sure he will make an announcement or somethinng

[verbal solar]

#📣│announcements if you look its always on youtuber

[jolly tangle]

where where where

this is the stuff I stay up late for

[glad fable]

it'd be funny if he just gave us false hope

[jolly tangle]

pochizo dont hold back with your questions

[late whale]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1135376586590404679/1192275608395329588/7298718110549347590.mp4?ex=65a87c30&is=65960730&hm=9daf74b12e3d1e3a051b044a7a39e2445eef921754aa687eb58127278a9c4a0d& me waiting for the 80he stream rn even though it’s like 7 am here

This dude is so funny

[jolly tangle]

nawh knowing calder hes taking 20 minutes to make a coffee deluxe

[late whale]

Idk why 😔

[late whale]

Lmaoo

[fallow spire]

lol

[late whale]

I just waved to like a bazzilion ppl

Or my wifi died

[glad fable]

write all this information down

Not final choice
This is the case so far

[jolly tangle]

you guys can also ask questions not just me

just saying

[random oxide]

too bad looks like you are now our leader 😛

[glad fable]

my internet is cutting out very important parts of information out 🗿

[late whale]

I’m shy

Kekw

[winged birch]

Rapid Trigger and all other features were inevitable hadn’t it been Wooting it would’ve been a different company as the concept was already talked about.

[verbal solar]

the steve jobs of woot

https://tenor.com/view/gif-gif-19493953

[placid whale]

https://tenor.com/view/innovator-dancing-steve-jobs-gif-7842308

[verbal solar]

i miss erb

[placid whale]

good times

[late whale]

Arden got donowalled

Lmao

[verbal solar]

no switches confirmed

[winged birch]

😃

[verbal solar]

where is calder its morning where hes at?

[winged birch]

https://tenor.com/view/based-gigachad-chad-gif-23901955

[late whale]

Gaterons ks also is gonna be an option

And more brands

More switch options are gonna be added for the barebone version

[coral patrol]

@fallow spire i understand there is an ETA of Q2 for deliveries, but is any new processes being done to fulfill this? (more production etc...)

[verbal solar]

80he box confirmed

[winged birch]

@jolly tangle why is the channel limited to 25 people?

I’d like to watch. 🥲

[verbal solar]

only 80he enjoyers allowed, no people who send 20+ pictures of it

[winged birch]

Shush. 🤣

[late whale]

💀

[winged birch]

But seriously, why the limit?

[jolly tangle]

I cant edit it

[late whale]

Ig it’s default

[jolly tangle]

the amoount to see

[buoyant jacinth]

The limit is on discord's side

[verbal solar]

cuz discords poop

where my skype people at !

[winged birch]

Since when? I’ve been in streams with 80 people

[buoyant jacinth]

video call

[verbal solar]

on a server?

[winged birch]

Yeah

[verbal solar]

boy he cappin

[winged birch]

Not sure if it was video tho

Just call

[verbal solar]

banish him to the shadow realm for 5 minuts

[ashen pond]

I will see if we can make a stage channel.

[zinc hedge]

send leaks

[verbal solar]

and edit calders name to be steve jobs and rename all else to audience

[verbal solar]

hes pointing to a 🦖 toy hes holding

[jolly tangle]

we gonna open up

calder is makingn a new channel

so you all can join

[winged birch]

Stage?

[verbal solar]

set the STATE

oh this is fancy

[winged birch]

That is what I meant

Stageeeeeee 😊

[jolly tangle]

were in wootstage

you can join

[winged birch]

👍

[ashen pond]

https://discord.com/channels/167181566978555904/1192286276129390622

[verbal solar]

2 year dev time?

for the 80he

[ashen pond]

There's always more than one project going on remember :p

Plus there was a major expanse during 2023 vs 2022.

[pure drum]

damn cool

[tranquil flame]

Oh shi this the full size wooting?

[coral patrol]

been a thing for awhile

[tranquil flame]

haven't seen in in pics before

fudge the 80he looks poo

full size it is 😈

[glad fable]

What don't you like about the look?

Arrow keys?

[tranquil flame]

to long wait

[zinc hedge]

Its gonna take about the same time for the twoHE

[torn breach]

that cleared up a lot of stuff

[nova turtle]

honestly if the arrow key shifting happens I don't mind the layout

[magic steppe]

I missed why they can shift the arrow keys but they can't make it TKL... Someone can say it please cause I think I missed it in the livd

[midnight iron]

I'm worried that shifting arrow key right will make the knob look janky

[placid whale]

you'll never hear me complain about missing the scroll lock and insert keys to trade it off for a smaller form factor high performance gaming keyboard with gasket mount

[torn breach]

i think that is the only section they can make adjustments for, but theres also the possible knob support in the future

so idk