manga-serious

[empty trellis]

the one imu used is highly likely uranus.

[limpid grail]

we know poseidon is a person, pluton is a ship, but we dont have details on what uranus is. It probably isnt a ship.

[empty trellis]

the one that imu used is kinda like a spaceship shooting gigantic laser beams downward, it's far from being like any normal ship anybody would use.

[deep haven]

It might actually be some gigantic creature

But that being powered by a bit of motherflame is a little strange

[empty trellis]

and considering uranus is related to the sky, i guess spaceship would fit the criteria somehow.

[deep haven]

Yknow, it might be a flying whole island

[limpid grail]

ancient ships could fly around likely.

space ships are still ships on one piece world

the thing about Pluton is its suppossed to be a massive ship whos key ability is destroy an island with one activation. That sounds so much like what destroys lulusia is why I pause is it pluton or Uranus there.

[empty trellis]

i can only think of thriller bark's gigantic creatures

idk when will they come to play once again in the story

[fallen maple]

Has to be Uranus. We know where Pluto is and the whole plans thing wouldn’t have any meaning if the WG had alternate plans all along. What if Uranus also has both the original somewhere and backup plans? Enel would have stolen the plans from Birka and used them to make Maxim Arc. And the WG has the original weapon. This would make Skypea very similar to ennies lobby except they arrived when the villain had already recreated the ancient weapon.

[simple ocean]

It would have meaning because someone can counter their weapon with the made up pluton

The thing is that the weapon Imu has basicly does the same thing as pluton only pluton is supposed to be stronger unless oda has to retcon that, based on what crocadile said

[limpid grail]

the water 7/enies lobby was all about pluton. That includes visiting a giant hole in the ocean. Quite possible this was also done by Pluton. Also, there might be some overlap between Birka and Elbaf, and if the Galleila giants built pluton, its possible Birka would have information on that. We also know elbaf have access to some technology to make their ships fly. It wouldnt be too surprising if Galleila could incorporate this into Pluton.

We also dont know for sure if Pluton is in Wano, nobody has seen it. We do know during the void century Wano had walls built to prevent a flood, and that before that happened suppossedly Pluton was buried there. So was pluton buried there during the void century and the walls went up?

Was pluton not used during the void century and the great flood?

Something just doesnt fit

or was this a lie spread by former ruler of Wano....Saint Ethanbaron Nusuro

[simple ocean]

Form what I remember the way it sounds is joy boy hid it in wano, wano at the end of the void century closes its walls off and it begins to flood, there is evidence of this that I remember from a past conversation about pluton so I can't say how accurate it is but I believe that was the pipeline?

Also kinda crazy that Jack didn't find Pluton

[limpid grail]

that would suggest the world wasnt flooding during the void century, but came afterwards?

you see what I mean, not saying the standard theory cant work, but there are gaps here I find puzzling

now, one can say that the stories we have heard are only partially true. Rumor and myth has bent stories. Sort of like Jarul saying Ratatoskr and Ragnir were separate beings that merged at some point. We can take this as cannon, or that its a myth with some elements of truth.

[high sinew]

The actual king of the world was davy d jons until he was burned and cursed by the devil and the only person who is said to have devils power is imu so most likely imu stole the position to attain power . ( i could be wrong)

[empty trellis]

"We do know during the void century Wano had walls built to prevent a flood"

is this speculation? because i dont remember them stating it in this way. we know that 800 years ago, by some unknown method and for unknown reasons, great walls were formed around the entire island. they did not allow for rainwater to drain out, so the island's original settlements were flooded, and thats all, oda didn't elaborate more on how and why did they create such walls as you stated.

[fallen maple]

Exactly, as far as we know the rise in sea levels has nothing to do with wano sunking, that was rainwater accumulation.

[fallow elbow]

hiii

[empty trellis]

isn't pluton buried underneath wano, jack being a fishmen wouldn't help him at all

[warm fox]

I have a theory about the world government and the void century

Basically it goes like this
900 years ago, there was an extreme war between all the nations of the world. It was so horrific and terrible that a power was used to erase the memory of it. Imu at the time used their power to create the world government. They also separated the world through sea and walls. This was to prevent an escalation of the one that happened previously. Imu is traumatized by those events and believes the only one who can stop. It is him through the Dominion and suppression of others.

[simple ocean]

Idk if its buried but if they knock the walls down pluton is released

[empty trellis]

maybe sugar's devil fruit ability had a role in erasing the memory of the people at that time, though it was implied by vegapunk that the 200m that flooded the world had almost every bit of histroy around the world erased.

[simple ocean]

Also pluton the way they make it sound seems to be sentient the way they describe it would be " released"

[empty trellis]

yeah thats a bit of information i never came to understand, why in order to retrieve pluton, the walls will need to be torn down? we still need an answer to this question.

[glass acorn]

It's just a large thing you need to get out right?

It's not gonna fit out the little channel opening presumably

[empty trellis]

hmm, so ur saying they need to destroy the walls to get pluton out of underneath right?

[limpid grail]

yeah, it suppossed to be buried under the mountain its so big. But the point I was saying they built the walls because the sea level roast and would have flooded old Wano. But not sure if that is confirmed on the reason for building the walls.

We know the walls were built before the world flooded

[simple ocean]

I see some people link zaza to the rain as well but that's kinda off point.

[empty trellis]

it is not confirmed that this is the reason for building the walls, but i get where ur coming from.

[glass acorn]

Bb has plenty of ways to open the walls

Gura, pizzaro, sanjuan, burgess

[limpid grail]

we can see the progression of the sea level. but the timing seems all strange to me. Perhaps the rain god caused it to rain for like 5 years straight.

that caused not only the oceans to swell upwards, but caused wano to fill up in just a few years time.

oda depicts once Wano is full, the ocean level is now above the old wano.

[limpid grail]

I think its an interesting concept, because it helps fill in the gaps. Some things dont make sense with timing right now with the information we have.

[limpid grail]

The Etymology of Uranus (Ouranos) is 'rain maker' or 'lord of the rain'

[simple ocean]

And that I'll admit feels like it could be zaza or the thing that Imu used to obliterate illusia

[thorny dirge]

The addition of Zaza makes Poseidon confusing now

I think most people assumed that Poseidon or maybe Uranus was what caused the sea level to rise

Until Zaza

But now with the addition of Zaza it’s up in the air if Poseidon and Zaza are the same thing or different

I still like to think that the tub current is a contributor to the sea level rise. A gigantic whirlpool with the rotation and displacement causing the surrounding oceans to rise

[glass acorn]

uranus (assuming lulusia weapon) definitely causes the ocean to rise

maybe other things also cause the ocean to rise but theres no doubt uranus does

vegapunk measued it and it just makes physical sense

theres a cylinder in the ocean where water can no longer go, therefore the water that used to occupy that space needs to be in the rest of the ocean, causing it to rise

[limpid grail]

while I think Uranus can cause some water increase, I dont think that is what was used to raise the ocean 200 meters.

[limpid grail]

I also wonder if their are people in the 2nd age who tried to become 1st world gods, and not all through devil fruits. The sea god and the rain god may actually be seperate people.

like poseidon is a 'weapon', but clearly its also named and connected to a sea god.

What destroyed lulusia, if say is Uranus the sky god, but its also the rain/sea god to raise the sea, and its also the underworld god since it burrows deep into the earth????

[glass acorn]

I think all the ancient weapons contributed to the sea level rise

[limpid grail]

how does poseidons powers contribute to that?

[glass acorn]

unclear at this time

maybe posideon can make the sea kings somehow or transform fish into sea kings

which would cause sea level rise

[limpid grail]

you mean just add like 100 milllion sea kings and their volume displaces water?

thats actually funny thinking about it

[glass acorn]

i always thought the name sea king was suspicious and them being ancient telepathic beings who seem to know these important prophecies is also suspicious

I was wondering if you might have like a sugar situation where kings of the old world were transformed into sea kings

[limpid grail]

i do wonder if the giant animals, like the owl and zunesha were once human

[thorny dirge]

maybe its similar to imus powers

where he can divy out his own poer to others

[limpid grail]

I mean the fact in old world mythology the great flood was caused by rainfall seems highly relevant

[thorny dirge]

like all the sea kings are part of 1 being or hte collective memoires of 1 being but it was split up to protect the memories

[simple ocean]

What of the seakings are equivalent to the gorsei, they look like sea monster version of them

Fishman packed with posidon

[limpid grail]

and the animals with Loki and Luffy at times

[fallen maple]

I think a lot of people miss the fact that water is constantly falling in there, it has to be falling to some underground sea. Upwards stream and reverse mountain might be water flowing from the underground to the surface. Those holes somehow might end up breaking the balance and making more water flowing up. It’s completely impossible for the water to be falling down constantly if there isn’t some sort of inmese cave below the sea floor. The sea level would lower if water keep falling down the hole and never came back up. These two things should be basic deductions from the holes.

[glass acorn]

I think it's just falling to the bottom of the hole

[fallen maple]

The hole would fill

[limpid grail]

I think its a gravity void.

[frozen osprey]

my headcanon says it's pumped out by water 7

[fallen maple]

What would that mean?

[glass acorn]

It doesn't fill cause magic whatever. There's obviously some kinda magic going on or the hole would fill regardless. Ennies lobby been this way hundreds of years

[limpid grail]

this would still lower sea levels though.

[glass acorn]

No? Why?

[fallen maple]

I don’t think that makes sense. Underground continent makes way more sense. It’s a very recurring trope in old adventure books. Including Jules Verne from whom oda has taken inspiration from.

[glass acorn]

No water is being lost but volume water previously occupied is being lost

Water can't be being lost cause that would lower sea level and whatever speculation or uncertainty one thing is clear, sea level rises

[limpid grail]

its not a ton of volume displaces, and water that flows downwords would also have some value running along the edges depending how deep it is.

[glass acorn]

The water going along the edges is necessarily smaller than the water that could be stored in the cylinder. It's like the shell of the cylinder

[limpid grail]

yeah, but given how large the planet is, I would be shocked if sea levels rose by more than a few millimeters. But again this is a comic book.

[limpid grail]

basically water cannot fill the void because their is a force permanently created within it.

but instead of a giant object blocking the water, its some type of gravitational force

[fallen maple]

But we saw people fall to the hole in ennies lobby and experience normal gravity and then climb up. Not to mention there are landmasses above the hole in ennies lobby and no abnormal gravity was observed

[limpid grail]

so of those landmasses dont make sense they can float, and it might be impacting different objects differently

we know one piece is a world where water does not interact well with other things

[fallen maple]

Subterranean fiction is a whole genre of fiction that was popular in the past, one of the few oda hasn’t touched. An underground continent/sea is very likely to be on odas plans and is a more direct and obvious answer to this never filling hole. Also, Vegapunk mentioned subterranean waters when talking about the sea level rise.

[limpid grail]

there is also what was this thing originally built for. The thing that destroyed capone's ship for example had a weird gravity effect. If the weapon was made for mining originally, it makese sense it could create giant holes in the ocean to stop the water, but allow miners to go down.

[fallen maple]

Seriously, how can you be trying to justify antigravity that affects different materials differently and not even acknowledge that a hole and an underground ocean is a much more simple, logical and probable explanation.

[glass acorn]

How does an underground ocean lead to sea level rise? Wouldn't it lead to sea level fall

[wise arrow]

if it's something as gravitational as the moon, it's possible

pulls up the tidea around the destroyed area

so that the adjacent islands meet a rise in sea level that goes down the further away from the hole you are

are blimps allower to go higher than clouds in one piece?

there's no way they would want to show whatever it was that wiped out lulusia

but it could be as strong as the moon when it comes to gravitational pull

[fallen maple]

There are currents that flow up (like reverse mountain) those holes would somehow alter the flows and currents and end up sending more water up the upwards streams. I know it’s a bit weird but it’s still more mundane than an antigravity well that shapes a cilinder hole in the ocean but water still falls and doesn’t affect land or people in the hole.

[glass acorn]

but if its just a hole why doesnt it fill

it demands some kind of weird magic or gravity

[fallen maple]

Have you seen the hollow earth maps?

[glass acorn]

no but it doesnt matter whats underdeath the empty cylinder at surface/ocean level needs to be justified

if its just normal gravity that hole fills in a few seconds, a few minutes at most

it doesnt matter whats underneath

[fallen maple]

https://share.google/OM51dnoYoJq13MMXl

[glass acorn]

i get the rough idea of a hollow earth but i dont get what would keep a tunnel to the hollow earth from immediately flooding if we're relying on mundane answers and normal phsyics

[fallen maple]

Have you seen the small corner where a ship sails and how gravity would work?

It’s like a sinkhole. But the upwards currents act as a pump pumping water back up.

[glass acorn]

can you pick one of the pictures in that share yorue talking about or draw a picture

[fallen maple]

https://share.google/vPC1lgt98eQMWuhI9

Imagine I have a pump sending the water that goes through this hole back up

But the pump works faster the more holes you make. And it’s not proportional, every new hole accelerates the pump to pump back up more water than the hole sends down.

[glass acorn]

i think that has some threshold and water only flows in when the water level is greater than the drain threshold

thats like a tube/drain, not a column of water

i mean im willing to accept some weird gravity/magic im just saying this doesnt free us from that it also requires it

[fallen maple]

I have a theory on how it’s a hollow earth in OP world. All of those crosses with something on the center symbolism would be the poles, reverse mountain, Mary Geoise and the center of the earth

But yes, in the end it would need gravity to work differently. But we already have seen water that flows upwards in one piece.

[glass acorn]

could be for thats one way to hide laugh tale

[fallen maple]

Imagine Oda ends the series without ever elaborating on this mystery. 😆

[glass acorn]

I do think some things should remain mysteries but maybe not this

[fallen maple]

That’s what I think. Laughtale doesn’t seem to be just further in grand line. Would be easily found. Specially with so many users that can fly from island to island.

[glass acorn]

i think the answer we're being presented right now is that the world is huge. marco claims there are millions of islands. So you cant realyl search taht

[fallen maple]

Oda weirdly marked the poles in the initial sketches of the world maps and there have been multiple easily forgettable references to the artic, poles and lands of ice over the series

[glass acorn]

also it may not be obvious

[fallen maple]

I think it’s either in the North Pole or inside the earth with an entrance in the North Pole.

[fallen maple]

Just curious what kind of stuff would you accept to remain in mystery

[glass acorn]

uh a lot of the time people talk about aspects of people's pasts as necessary that must be included in some flashback that i dont necessarily agree. Like roger's motivation for traveling the world for example. The weird weather along the grand line i dont necessarily need a scientific explanation im happy to take it as-is as just being weird. The origin of devil fruits im on the fence i could just accept vegapunks words as all we ever get. And while im sure we'll get some details of the void war i dont need every single detail.

[fallen maple]

I agree mostly. But I really dislike vegapunks explanation on dfs tbh, it’s a non explanation.

[glass acorn]

it is a non explanation but i think thats fine that like.. this is as close as we can get and its not very close

[fallen maple]

My main problem with it is that the fruits have always been present as a limited number of available ones, they are on a book etc, there should be new ones popping up every once in a while if they were just human aspirations.

I would rather not have Vegapunks explanation and never be clarified on fruits than have just vegapunks explanation with no extra info.

[glass acorn]

i think we will get a little bit more info in the void centruy flashback

[fallen maple]

Hope so, Oda has been constantly raising two new questions for every one he answers for too long xd

[glass acorn]

but i think i would dislike it if some void century scientist gave like a chapter long monologue explianing it

i would just want a tiny morsel of extra info

[fallen maple]

Yes, too detailed and fleshed out explanations for long standing mysteries often end up being disappointing, seen it happen to many series.

Tbh I have yet to see a series of books that was constantly creating mysteries as they solved them with a satisfying ending, I hope Oda shows me the first one.

[uncut smelt]

I can't relate, I only ever see stories not explain enough to "keep mystique" and then it just feels unresolved

[glass acorn]

sometimes the uncertain thing that lives in your head is better than the answe the author gives on page

[fickle vortex]

So fellas what are your current theories on Imu?

[crystal moth]

Strong

[thorny dirge]

I wrote about the displacment of water that could be happening a few years ago #manga-serious message

whe nyou stir a bottle into a whirlpool the water level rises because it is being displaced by air but the total water volume is not decreasing

the shots fired by uranus cause holes in the bottom of the ocean resulting in whirlools forming due to the displacment

causing the sea level to rise but the total volume of water to stay the same

minus whatever was evaporated

[glass acorn]

that makes sense to me. but still missing the piece of how the columns/whirlpools can last for years

[thorny dirge]

Yes that throws a loop in it. Unless there is some devil fruit involved or Uranus is so powerful is disrupts the magnet fields of the island it destroys and leaves residual effects that cause it to turn into a whirlpool. Replacing an island/country with a whirlpool that no log pose would point to is convenient in erasing history.

No one would attempt to investigate it because going near it means certain doom and no log pose would indicate it is anything of note in the first place

It just becomes a mark on navigation maps saying stay away

[late eagle]

It’s so sad knowing whitebeard and ace died wanting the other to be king of the pirates

Neither of them will get there

[grizzled lantern]

So....Douzan...Imu refers to Luffy and Loki as their void century counterparts...so

1. do we think that Douzan will have a modern day counterpart
2. will Douzan be in the Brook flashback

[wheat edge]

i heard an idea dozan was someone post void century imu had to erase for some reason

[grizzled lantern]

I actually just went back and reread. Imu actually refers to them as Luffy and Loki in this chapter, so you could be right. If he said Luffy and Loki, then followed up with Douzan

[limpid grail]

unless douzan was the name of the void century nidhoggr

because Imu is also implying he killed Ragnir's previous wielder

[grizzled lantern]

And Imu also confirmed that he and Ragnir (or Ratatoskr) had some beef

[crystal moth]

Are we thinking that Esperia was wiped out in a hunting game like God Valley was? I'm kinda hoping its something else, that would feel a bit samey to happen twice in one arc

[hexed eagle]

Guys。。。 i think they're pirates

[grizzled lantern]

Maybe, but also keeping with the Loki/Harald theme, and how Oda typically writes, I think that Brook was framed for killing King Reuven, because it was well known Brook simped for Queen Candelle. Which drove him to join Rumbar Pirates

[crystal moth]

But the country no longer exists according to Brook. Just killing the current king wouldn't mean the country itself got wiped out.

unless the kingdom got torn apart due to some sort of other events happening at the same time

[grizzled lantern]

God Valley doesnt exist anymore either.

[crystal moth]

Because the entire island got wiped out by Imu/the WG

[frigid wagon]

the kingdom might just have fallen due to unrest

I wonder what is going to happen

[crystal moth]

If it was being held together because the current king was a former crime boss and once he was gone there was no sense of national identity, especially if the rest of the family is also gone

[frigid wagon]

Brook survives whatever happens now and becomes a pirate

[crystal moth]

I wonder how many Rumbar pirates are former citizens of Esperia?

[dull vortex]

I think it’s unlikely that esperia was wiped out in the same way of god valley since it’s kind of implied they’re WG affiliated with gunko visiting marejois

[frigid wagon]

so brook died at age 38, which is 18 years from now

[limpid grail]

My thoughts:

1. The royal family and brook get entangled with holy land
2. Brook somehow becomes a blade of god
3. Brook murders the king while under Imu's influence in the holy land
4. Princess Shuri offers herself to Imu in return of sending Brook to the lower world
5. Brook is sent down, but his memory is altered to think Shuri killed the king.

[frigid wagon]

I think the "benefactor" is candelle

[crystal moth]

Are you saying Brook isn't remembering correctly when he says Shuri is the one who killed the king?

[dull vortex]

I can see that being the cause

[crystal moth]

oh I didn't read the last bit

[limpid grail]

yes

[crystal moth]

who would have altered his memory?

[frigid wagon]

since candelle is the previous guard captain

[limpid grail]

shuri makes the sacrifice this time. Not Harald/kuma (father figures)

[frigid wagon]

previous user of pudding's fruit

[crystal moth]

also how does this make any more sense than "Shuri becomes a devoted blade of god, kills the king"

why the extra layer of "no wait Brook was the REAL blade of god but he got his memory wiped and also the tattoo removed"

[dull vortex]

I think the first 2 are definitely reasonable and it could go either way for brooks or gunko killing the king

[limpid grail]

brook died and has no skin so the tattoo went away

[crystal moth]

still, why does that make more sense than the less complicated series of events?

[frigid wagon]

i wonder why shuri was chosen by imu

[crystal moth]

blue hair innit

[limpid grail]

the theme has been self-sacrifice the last couple of years for Oda. Giving up your free will to help another. I think we will see that in this story.

[dull vortex]

I think it’s less likely since if he did have a tattoo unless he had a way like shanks he’d still be influenced by imu in some way while being a pirate

[limpid grail]

thematically, it makes sense Shuri will give up her free will to aid brook.

[crystal moth]

sure, but why does that mean that brook was also a blade of god? why not JUST have shuri become the blade of god in place of brook?

why all the "brook actually did it and got his memory wiped" instead of just cutting out the middle man

[limpid grail]

because in her memory, she did not appear to be under mind control.

she witnessed what appears to be her fathers death by the hands of another.

meanwhile, brook we havent seen that memory that, just words.

[frigid wagon]

where was it again

[limpid grail]

you can see her remembering something terrible happenign to her father

[crystal moth]

I did not interpret this that way, as if she was observing someone else killing her father

it could have been any number of events involving her father

either having something done to him or him doing something to someone else

[limpid grail]

sure, I am just saying its a likely situation given this flashback that she was also not the one to do it.

[dull vortex]

Is it possible that whatever happened to esperia led to the creation of elegia I know that’s probably a huge reach but they’re both islands related to music and have harp like structures lol

[crystal moth]

not likely, possible sure

[limpid grail]

but its just a theory with the evidence I collected

[frigid wagon]

she's older than now

[acoustic yacht]

Thinking Brook is gonna see Zaza, goddess of the rain, and be like “Queen Candelle?????!”

[limpid grail]

I think shuri is the one that gave the chance for brook to be a pirate

[normal cove]

or that shit happened when he was out at sea

[acoustic yacht]

Imu’s been keeping tabs on every descendant of the og 4 gods

sun, rain, forest, and earth

[limpid grail]

D for Decendant

[jolly wedge]

Holy ball knowledge

[frigid wagon]

no patrick, nika did not actually exist during the void century

[acoustic yacht]

there’s somethin about them Gunko eyes breh

I tried zooming in on the Zaza and her eyes look similar

[acoustic yacht]

and there is no war in ba sing sae

[limpid grail]

shuri by the end will give brook his dream, but in one piece fashion at a cost

[frigid wagon]

joy boy was a user of the nika fruit

nika was already a legend back then

[acoustic yacht]

nika is a man of many faces lol

[torn cove]

Is this a foreshadowing to BB's association with the number three, perhaps he too has three personalities? Or am I reaching too far here

[dull vortex]

Not a reach

[torn cove]

Right? Zoro and Luffy once called Blackbeard a "they" so it could tie back to that

[limpid grail]

we are all trying to connect dots here. Oda does leave clues for future things and themes do repeat.

[grizzled lantern]

Whatever is going to happen its more than likely going to be similar in theme to God Valley/Harald and Loki.

We have a king that tried to join the WG, and begged to be killed bc of Imu's control. Everybody thinks Loki killed him in anger, and got exiled.

Now, we are introduced to another king whom we know will be killed at some point in this flashback, presumably by Gunko.

[limpid grail]

yeah, loki took the blame, but there was some clues that wasnt the full story

I can see Gunko giving up everything to free Brook and having him sent down to live his dream as a pirate.

Kuma and Harald in some ways are very similar stories, but he hasnt covered the daughter/son sacrificing for the father. I can see that as the spin with Shuri now.

(brook in a way being a father figure to Shuri)

[molten anchor]

BB and Imu have squid symbolism aswell

[grizzled lantern]

Right. All we know is that Shuri allegedly killed her father.
The wrench in this story, at least IMO is Brook's feelings for Queen Candelle.
Oda wouldn't have planted that seed if it wasnt going to tie in to the story.

Brook already joked that he would wait for the king to die before pursuing the queen, so the WG could use that knowledge to frame Brook for his death.

So was Brook the only witness to Shuri's actions

[limpid grail]

Or use that desire to twist brook

It was haralds good desire that was bent to corrupt him

[molten anchor]

Since brook is a smart character, i assume that he seen shuri being controlled and killed rueven BUT there is a small chance that Candel did it and just told brook

And brook being blinded by love believed her

[calm marsh]

hi

[clever wharf]

Gunko wanted Brook to become her slave before regaining her memories, could it be that Brook pulled a Yassop and left Shuri to become a pirate, like after whatever mess happened in Esperia he decided to take her to Marijois for her safety despite her not wanting separation.
It's also interesting how Gunko enjoyed Brook's music even after her memories were suspended

[molten anchor]

Music is powerful

Even imu had music when he arrived at elbaf

[winged gulch]

My predictions after Elbaf: we will see Sphinx Island (WB and Ace grave) then Lodestar

[grizzled lantern]

How would you tie that to Brook's anger toward her, calling her "patricidal princess"

[limpid grail]

its interesting that what first awoke shuri's memories was Gabban getting apparently killed and his son screaming dad out loud. We see Shuri cry and scream mirroring 'father' in a similar memory, all while Gunko watches Gabban falling.

[frigid wagon]

by the context it seems her father was killed by someone else and she was blamed for it, and brook doesn't know what actually happened

[crystal moth]

So is dancing it seems

[fickle vortex]

Wait a second, remember that Brook said that the last time he saw Gunko/Shuri, she was going to Marie Geoise?

This suggests that Brook never been to Marie Geoise

[subtle abyss]

Gear 5 peak

[limpid grail]

some things dont add up. Did Brook actually witness this murder or not. Was Esperia a member nation? Is Brook's memories altered, and he is missing some info?

[fickle vortex]

We're gonna find out eventually

[limpid grail]

Brook however is knowledge about the gods knights, and they are a small group that sits high up above regular CDs. How does he know all this?

[thorny temple]

Maybe a knight visited the kingdom? They were apparently quite active a few decades ago

[limpid grail]

they dont seem to talk about it. It seemed on GV that the citizens had little knowledge about what Garling exactly was.

And garling eventually collected information about the D/Davy clan there as he spent time there

[fickle vortex]

I just realized something,

It seems that holy knights operate in places outside of the world government reach

AKA places that are not aligned with the world government.

[limpid grail]

I would say they can do that, but I think they are basically Imu/Elders eyes and ears in the world. CP9/0 also serve a similar function.

[fickle vortex]

Mostly for places that are aligned with the world government

[limpid grail]

Water 7? I think the main differences is CDs can order around CP0, but holy knights are CDs that only elders/Imu can order around

[fickle vortex]

Also holy knights are far much rarer to run into

[limpid grail]

Garling landing on GV was also an accident

but there is also a question on how the GK recruit

[fickle vortex]

We will find out in shank's backstory

[clever wharf]

I said he left her after whatever mess happened, meaning I am not forging a complete theory just stating some notes

[molten anchor]

Which is why he settled down with magnolia

https://tenor.com/view/one-piece-joyboy-joyboy-one-piece-emet-emet-one-piece-gif-4978377000570047372

[vapid shadow]

Candelle could be a former world noble of the Manmeyer family. Maybe the Manmeyer discover she ended up in Esperia. What if Shuri's memory is of Candelle's father doing something horrific?

[limpid grail]

remember, in this moment Gunko is also watching Gaban getting stabbed in the chest and his son crying out for his dad.

[vapid shadow]

True

[limpid grail]

not saying you might not be correct, but its interesting the act of having a father getting stabbed is whats helping her memories

[vapid shadow]

Man what if Imu, through a Manmeyer god knight, posesses Shuri and has her kill Reuven

Though looking at things, Candelle's hair is smooth while Shuri's is pointy

[limpid grail]

I know its one piece, but geez how did he survive this

[vapid shadow]

He's a Roger Pirate, they choose when they die from being impaled just like their captain

[limpid grail]

lots of information we need. First I want to figure out if esperia is member nation. That would mean the royals would have relationships with WG.

And the fact Candelle is basically a warrior queen could draw the attention of GK.

Note, the GK seem to want to recruit talented warriors. Shuri is training to be a great warrior like her mother. Harald was a powerful warrior.

Shanks was already a powerful pirate who trained under Roger pirates

Brook, Candelle and Shuri are all potential God Blade candidates.

[vapid shadow]

Maybe Candelle will have a similar light blue hair color as the Manmeyer knight.

[limpid grail]

mother dearest might be here all along

[rigid mountain]

We gotten this far to finally see Brook's backstory

He did mentioned to young Shuri that he wanted to become a pirate, wonder what made him want to quit the guard

[dark horizon]

I hope we get to see how Brook meets Yorki

[rigid mountain]

Yea and later meeting Laboon

Gonna be a tearjerker to see the Rumbar Pirates dying off again and Brook being the only one left and stranded for decades

[limpid grail]

The rumbar pirates are likely remnants of their kingdom.

[limpid grail]

note, the symbol of the Rumbar pirates is the bovine skull as well

[rigid mountain]

oh damn it'll be neat to see

Yorki only allowing people in the crew who loves music

[clever wharf]

How long do you see the flashback going? Estimation of chapters

[rigid mountain]

probably 5-6, we just had a long flashback about the Rocks Pirates and Harald's

[clever wharf]

Yeah realistic, with the return chapter being a cliffhanger of Luffy joining the fight followed by a break week

[dark horizon]

I'm expecting even less. Like 3

[rigid mountain]

it'll tell about Brook's kingdom, Shuri being kidnapped to be a God's Knight, the destruction of the kingdom and possibly the survivors under Yorki banding together to become the Rumbar Pirates

[clever wharf]

Either that or the flashback will be split in two after Gunko is saved

[dark horizon]

It's probably notable that it already did cut back to present time so it could keep doing that

[wise arrow]

minor characters survived a nuke and 10 million volt beams from the sky

also he's scopper gaban so you'd expect him to be durable when he's roger's left hand

[rigid mountain]

Yea, and Blackbeard ran off from fighting Rayleigh

[onyx canyon]

mad respect he had birth with a giant🤞

[grizzled lantern]

I think we with this flashback, we will spend a few chapters introducing key players, then resolve the rest in the present.

[limpid grail]

a lot of smaller flashbacks are usually around the 5-6 chapter mark.

the volume also wraps up around then too

[limpid grail]

https://discord.com/channels/164970986284777473/1472027136146538547

also the symbol of shangara, Shamrock...ect

[fickle vortex]

So the kingdoms/countries Joyboy was allied with are probably
Alabasta, Skypea/Shandora, Water 7, Amazon Lily, Fishman Island, Zou, Wano, Elbaph, Esperia

[limpid grail]

Mary Geoise too

[clever wharf]

Hmm does the bink's sake song originate from Esperia?
Maybe they held a few songs hinting at the history of the world

[limpid grail]

It may have originated with the musician on Joyboys crew

[fickle vortex]

Remember, the ladies on amazon lily are called the Kuja tribe. 9 snakes

Calling it now, Esperia was allied with Joyboy.

[limpid grail]

the main symbols we still have to figure out

[fickle vortex]

Remember the Kuja flag

[limpid grail]

I wonder if Amazon lilly was founded after the war

[fickle vortex]

I still think lily founded the place

[limpid grail]

yes, I agree with that.

[fickle vortex]

It's also would be the last place you'll expect somebody to hide

I assumed that the world government didn't know about Amazon lily's location for centuries

[sour vortex]

It's interesting that the entire Elbaf arc seems to contain West Blue references from start to end, I don't think the other Blues has this much attention in any other arc

1. Bringing back Ohara incident with Robin and Saul
2. God Valley incident and Rocks Pirates becoming Thriller Bark zombies
3. Shanks and Davy clan hometown in West Blue
4. Kozuki Moria cover story randomly in Elbaf arc
5. And now bringing back Brook back story, in West Blue

I wonder if it will lead somewhere

[fickle vortex]

The one piece is in the west blue or something?

[clever wharf]

Each island wiped out by the wg had some knowledge about history, I think Esperia had music with hints on the true history

[slim tree]

Do you guys think celestial dragons are actually happy

Most of the time they look angry

[white vine]

They do it for fun every 3 years. Tho since it’s flashback important probably

[night pulsar]

I think imu is currently building solider but for what? He even considered Luffy as if he wasn't your nemesis lol

[thorny dirge]

oda will do all this except talk about high west

[wind storm]

we learnt a bit about north blue during whole cake since that's where germa is from

[cunning burrow]

Im wondering if Brooks talk about "3 personalities" will have any connection or implications to plot threads like Cavendish and blackbeard

[thorny dirge]

I h ave never understood where the 3 personality thing for blackbeard came from

people just made it up so it would fit the narrative

and now is just a widespread idea

[limpid grail]

there is a lot of clues for it

[thorny dirge]

I know there are alot of things related to 3 with black beard but i dont understand the personalities thing. The entire multiple personalities things stemmed from a concept art of his sisters that never made it into the full story and people say he did somethign to eat them or consume their soul or they are like parasitic twins or or something insdie him. nonsensicle stuff like that.

and even in th story i dont understand how its justified

[limpid grail]

I think it was also the dialogue at mocktown when the strawhats were calling BB 'them'

[thorny dirge]

he doesnt shift pesonalities like hakuba

hes friendly when hes not facing an enemy but that could be said with anyone

[thorny dirge]

yea

people think its his non existent sister

[limpid grail]

also Marco saying his body was different.

I think its all these strange things. Plus the 3 skulls icons are unusual

[thorny dirge]

so where does the mutliple personalities thing come in though?

[limpid grail]

well, his teeth switch places at times..ect. I dont think he exactly has three personalities, but something is going on with him

Either because he is a buccanneer or something

[thorny dirge]

I think the teeth thing is similar to luffy drinking milk and getting his teeth back and its jsut oda drawing it differnet every time

[limpid grail]

thats what I lean to as well

[thorny dirge]

i think the 3 things arent coincidental and he has the possibility to get a 3rd fruit but I jsut dont get the personality theory

[limpid grail]

the one thing that strikes me is we are in the '3rd world' There appear to have been three nika. Possible three nidhoggrs..ect.

The thing about the dark dark fruit is it absorbs everything....including potentially souls.

I wonder if you combine a buccaneer with a soul eating fruit....

[thorny dirge]

i wouldnt like that becuase it invalidates big moms fruit

big moms fruit is literally the soul soul fruit

so if the dark dark fruit can just do that as well it kinda ruins her fruits uniqueness

[limpid grail]

yeah, but she reperposes souls. I think dark dark fruit just absorbs it, without choice.

(just the users soul)

[thorny dirge]

yea i made a diagram fori t before

he kills people. prevents the devil fruit sould from getting away to a new fruint then forcefully implants it into the fruit of his choosing

[limpid grail]

oh, I dont know if its even that powerful, but it could be. I just wonder if the users of the fruit has his soul trapped, especially if they are a buccanneer/davy.

Because the whole stealing other peoples devil fruits appears to be an ability his entire crew has now

[thorny dirge]

I was under the assumption that his crew carried around giant bags of varried fruit so it has a high chance to appear in their when thye kill people but black beard can just 100% it

[limpid grail]

thing is their are so many populated areas, millions of fruit trees on islands...ect. And the bags they carry seem like they could hold maybe a dozen or two fruit? There has to be something else going on in my mind.

[thorny dirge]

I wrote about it here a few years ago #manga-theories message

iut probably wont be that but i like to think its that

[limpid grail]

especially now that we see people with metal hearts popping up

[thorny dirge]

i think oda will jsut say "yea he can just do that"

[thorny dirge]

whatever it is im sure oda is going to fool us

we al lthink its one thing and then its going to be something completely different

its probably some method black beard learned from void century history.

[limpid grail]

I think he shows us a little, and then waits 10 years to address it. But wants to make sure we get some clues as well so its not completely random.

[thorny dirge]

becasue he enjoys history as his hobby

[thorny dirge]

Oda loves dropping some mysterious thing and then waits for the readers to write shit for him lol

hes got 10 years worth of theories ot mix together

more like 18 actually

I think marineford happened in like 2008-2009

[limpid grail]

Removing a piece of a person heart and sticking an apple in there to turn into a DF doesnt seem completely out of the realm of possiblity.

[thorny dirge]

feel thats a bit dark for odas taste

oda writes some messed up stuff sometimes but thats pushing it

[limpid grail]

I mean Whitebeard was fighting with only 80% of his head left at marineford

[thorny dirge]

https://tenor.com/view/kalima-gif-19064001

[limpid grail]

and he had two holes in his chest. Enough to basically do open heart surgery without need to cut anything.

[thorny dirge]

i dont want to belive oda would make cannibalism a way to gain power in one piece but theres also burgess in dressrosa with a knife

[full frigate]

that just meant that he wasn’t alone

[thorny dirge]

why would burgess needa knife to kill someone

he was going ot kill luffy and steal his fruit but im sure if he plannd on fighting luffy he would try to physically fight with punches and wrestling moves

so he would have needed the knife for something else

[limpid grail]

https://tenor.com/view/whos-to-say-who-know-no-idea-who-knows-not-sure-gif-16426797

[limpid grail]

yeah, jumping at luffy with a knife seems weird unless its for a very specific reason, totally agree. The dude is a brawler

knife might even be seastone

[thorny dirge]

side note: oda scaling at work here

knife is 2x bigger than luffy

[limpid grail]

wondering if Gunko has a special contract with Imu, but seems strange since we knew the three kinds of contracts. But Gunko is not aging. But what if either Reuven or Candelle have the opi opi No mi

it would be the perfect time to reveal a previous user of such a fruit

GV showed us a lot of fruits that came back in circulation later on

[thorny dirge]

I saw a theory on twitter earlier in the week saying that candelle is a holy knight who was infilitrating the esperia kingdom to scout for a place for the next human hunt tournament and similar to garling had a child/children with the native islanders.

because she is dressed similar to how garling and shamrock were

[limpid grail]

its possible. esperia could be a member nation as well.

Its hard because her style is just generic enough to fit the styles and charactes from other places as well. Even Brooks outfit looks like what Shanks wore in the holy land, and we have people like captain John

[thorny dirge]

yea but captain johns is jsut from his coat

[limpid grail]

yeah, but her vest has the stylings of the times for anybody with some money

The only thing that seems strange is Garling ended up in GV, but kept a low profile. candelle we are told is incredibly popular, she is a star (maybe not Hancock level, but we are getting that hype again.)

[thorny dirge]

well garling wasnt trying to infiltrate the island I think he jsut kinda came there did the business and then left for 9 months

then came back for his kids before the tournament started

[limpid grail]

yeah, but the knights are always a low profile group. People have heard of CP9, CP0...ect. But gods knights are a mystery to all but a few.

[thorny dirge]

yea so candelle being popular wouldnt raise many eyebrows right

[limpid grail]

So candelle being a celebrity known to a chunk of the world would seem to be an ackward mission to hide.

[thorny dirge]

people dont know about the gods knights

[limpid grail]

But garling wasnt even scouting GV for human hunt tournament

[thorny dirge]

was it ever explained how the wg found out about the davy clan on god valley

didnt rocks say he only told herald about it

[limpid grail]

no. It seems Garling stayed there for a bit, and gauged interest if they wanted to join WG. They basically were not interested, but his wife or somebody started talking about Davy/D to him on the island.

Basically if your an island rich in rescources and you are not interested in joining WG, you are a target for the next hunt.

having Davy...ect clan makes you for sure a main target

[thorny dirge]

besides the pirates I wonder why the wg didnt choose hachinosu for one

it used to be under the control of th wg i believe when it was prison colony

[glass acorn]

its deep in the new world isnt it? it seems logisitcally difficult

[limpid grail]

pirates are too wild and violent to human hunt. They will resist.

[thorny dirge]

well before that

[limpid grail]

Normal farmers and merchants are not going to be as combative.

[thorny dirge]

it wasnt alwys a pirate island

the origin was it was a prison colony wasnt it?

[glass acorn]

dunno

[thorny dirge]

and then he prisoners took it over

[thorny dirge]

yea im looking back into it and it was a former penal colony but then the prisoners found a ton of gold under the island and they took it over

[limpid grail]

seems like it was a somewhat baren island where they expected people to die

so the WG thought the Island was a piece of crap, and it turned out after many years gold was discovered.

probably a Shandian mine, since we know a poneglyph was discovered there

[thorny dirge]

was there?

i dont remember that part

[limpid grail]

yea, in SBS for rocky port incident, Oda said there was one there

[thorny dirge]

that doesnt sound like it was discovered there

[limpid grail]

we have little info, but tie that in with the Gold discovered, makes me VERY intrigued

[thorny dirge]

it was ruled by ochoku for decades after god valley so i dont doubt he coudl procure one

jimbe was able to get one

[limpid grail]

why would he want one though? Why draw conflict with the WG? dude is a business man.

[thorny dirge]

he was on rocks crew he knows they are valueable

[limpid grail]

Rocks honestly seems somewhat ignorant of them

Not sure he mentioned them once

I think the Davy had their own verbal history

Joyboy had the poneglyphs, and Davy clan had 'the history where we are rulers of all' stories passed down. Just my thought on it.

[thorny dirge]

well yea but i seriously doubt that the rocks pirates had no idea about poneglyphs

big mom had 3 of them alone

other than the road poneglyph what would be the point of having the other ones if she didnt know their value

[limpid grail]

it was after Rogers death they became really important to them

When big mom realized she need to steal them

[thorny dirge]

yea so what was stopping ochoku from getting them?
\

[limpid grail]

I think he was a small man with small ambitions. I think once he got hatchinosu, he just rested and didnt do anything.

[glass acorn]

yeah i agree he just sort of coasted on his small victory

[limpid grail]

just my thought. He wasnt interested in Shaki, ore more money, or GV or....ect.

[glass acorn]

if you just wanna have a wealthy comfortable life you dont need to go after the one piece, its a bad idea =

[thorny dirge]

I think ochoku was similar to buggy

coasting off his rocks fame

he was called hte pirate cultist for ar eason

[limpid grail]

yeah, I think he was basically like an accountant that got an island, and could have a comfortable life just keeping the lights on.

assuming Caribou is his son, he seems pretty low intelligence and low motivated as well. However he is the luckiest pirate as well because all of his failings has him 20 feet away from somebody talking about ancient weapons.

[fickle vortex]

So Australia

[wind storm]

Yeah poneglyph knowledge was probably way more obscure pre roger's execution

Roger had to put together a bunch of pieces during his journey and then do a second lap with Oden

[molten anchor]

They likely believe they only need the Giants and the power of davy jones

[fickle vortex]

I do think lodestar will be more of a flashback arc

[fluid venture]

yall think mihawk has a connection to imu

maybe he shouldve become a holy knight but decided to be a warlord instead cuz he didnt want imus mark cuz mihawk seems morally okay kinda makes no sense why he worked for the government

[vapid shadow]

Since volume 115 ends on Imu's devil form reveal, I wonder if we'll get the official colors by having him on the cover

[grizzled lantern]

Thoughts on Candell being a garling and gunko being a shamrock

[clever wharf]

Candelle gives young Garling vibes though it's more about the looks and arrogant kinda full of herself vibe she gives rather than killing her partner in cold blood

[neat ingot]

Mihawk is a Nerona

[clever wharf]

Tbf I don't wanna see a repetition of past cd flashback like just a cd wanting to take a wife by force, eventhough it's in character for cds but I hope we get something more diverse

Candelle pulling some spying job like Garling would be better if we have to repeat a previous theme

[slim tree]

Is the queen really a celestial dragon

[clever wharf]

Idk if she is one or will become a wife of a cd, only her look gives a hk vibe

[wind storm]

It might just be a royal look tbf

[frigid wagon]

I'm being convinced candelle is a god knight by the fact that gunko is specifically mentioned as a member of the manmeyer family, so she must have direct lineage to a celestial dragon of that family and the king clearly isn't

[vapid shadow]

If Douzan is a giant named after Rikidozan, it'd be thematic if they aren't an Elbaph giant.

Rikidozan popularized professional wrestling in Japan despite the trials he faced as a Korean born under the Japanese colony.

We've got a theme going with Hajrudin, Ida, and Saul as non Elbaph giants who play significant roles in changing Elbaph. So perhaps Douzan was important to the direction Elbaph took.

[wind storm]

Actually thats pretty plausible

Would be similar to Garling marrying into god valley

[slim tree]

guys what if Blackbeard got Sanjuan Wolf on his crew as a sort of replacement for Harald/Loki

because maybe he knew Loki wouldn't join his crew

so he just got Sanjuan Wolf instead

[wind storm]

The fruit presumably would stop him from nidhogging

[slim tree]

what

[wind storm]

Rocks wanted harald because of how powerful he'd be as nidhogg

And sanjuan already got given a fruit

[slim tree]

yeah to make up for the loss of the Niddhog fruit

Rocks his plan probably involved having a really big crew member, and because Niddhog was already taken he settled for Sanjuan Wolf and his huge huge fruit

[wind storm]

Tbf though if blackbeard uses his steal fruit + double fruit trick again it could work

Maybe sanjuan + giant fruit + nidhogg would be comparable to ancient giant + nidhogg

[slim tree]

Sanjuan Wolf probably can't get a 2nd devil fruit though

Blackbeard has that special lineage

[wind storm]

Maybe but we dont actually know what trick blackbeard used still

[slim tree]

he's pregnant with Rocks

so he has the yami yami no mi and Rocks has the tremor fruit

that's why his belly is so big

[molten anchor]

If oda follows through with the squid theory then he altered his own RNA

[wind storm]

The what now

[limpid grail]

I think it makes sense Douzan was the void century nidhoggr

And Ragnir wants revenge for his death

[molten anchor]

Blackbeard is believed to eaten a krakken fruit (or imo just have squid dna himself) because his flag has 3 skulls and 8 bones which could be 3 hearts 8 legs/arms. his bounty being 3996= san ko ko ro aka 3 hearts.

They can also sleep for 40 seconds i believe, and can edit their RNA if they wanted to,for adapting into different environments

[limpid grail]

potentially pluton. The galleila may have been the makers of pluton, and Davy may have had a strong connection through that.

[molten anchor]

Facts

[limpid grail]

this might sound crazy, but given all the unique powers we have seen, I wonder if all living creatures at the end of the void century had their memory wiped of the void century.

[molten anchor]

I could see it happening to prevent anyone from finding about the past

[limpid grail]

and only tales from poneglyphs, books, stories was preserved. World was flooded too to hide it. Why government wants everything written to be destroyed.

it is hard for me to believe the elbaf giants are basically ignorant of the void century. Like Jaruls family was living through it. I am curious how Oda is going to get around this.

[chrome rock]

i wonder why Oda fit in the brook flashback in right now

is this the first time we have had multiple flashbacks in one arc?

[limpid grail]

no

the flashback may shed some light on something currently happening or about to happen though

perhaps how Esperia got destroyed...ect.

Also, I notice the King of Esperia appears taller than Brook. More like blackbeard or a little taller.

[chrome rock]

i think it will just free Gunko in the best case scenario. Its likely that Gunko is actually remembering this flashback but brook is the one telling it. I think Candelle probably Eperia succumbed to the world government but i dont think it was destroyed because we know a lot of the Rumbar pirates are on this island so they have moved out. Yes its possible they coudl of been destroyed but you would think during Brooks adventure and his age he would of seen notice about it.

though it is true that when Lulusia was destroyed, no one but Sabo has heard about the news yet so...who knows

[limpid grail]

Brook seems a little inconsistent on his memories, and we dont know if he witnessed this, because it sounds like it happened in Esperia (the murder.)

My current 'out there' theories for this flashback:
• One of Shuri’s parents have the Opi Opi No Mi
• Shuri gives herself to the WG in the end to protect Brook
• Brook either was told misinformation, or his memory was distorted about Shuri being the one to kill
• It is possible that Brook became a gods blade

I don't think Shuri has a pact different then the other gods knights, I think the difference is she has the eternal youth surgery.

[fickle vortex]

I doubt that Brook was a god's blade since if that was the case, Brook would've seen Gunko up on marie geoise

[limpid grail]

he was a gods blade before Shuri sacrificed herself is what I was getting at

[fickle vortex]

We just have to see

i doubt it still though

[limpid grail]

yeah, these are my less than 25% likely takes

like with harald, I think we are going to get a twist on the story beyond just mind control, at least when ti comes to shuri

[chrome rock]

this is just a wack theory but its possible that women of blue hair and probably some bloodline are very important to Imu

[molten anchor]

Yes

[chrome rock]

its completely possible that Gunko could of been a vessel for imu until she realized she couldn't be and has to just keep her nearby

Gunko is the only holy knight who stays with imu all the time in the garden, this has to be a special case. This also ties into why vivi and previously lilli were important.

[molten anchor]

Maybe blue hair (or just nefertari women) = uranus

[limpid grail]

blue hair might trace back to the water god. White hair Nika...ect.

revolutionaries seem to have the black dragon as their symbol. Shanks the Red dragon....

pink/pink hair associated with blood of the gods

[limpid grail]

the other thing is Shuri and Vivi are both rulers of their kingdoms when Imu wants them.

[limpid grail]

the popular theory on the internet the last couple of days is that Queen Candle is a holy knight that infultrated the kingdom. That might be true too.

although I find it strange the gangsters would be after her

[fickle vortex]

okay i just noticed that the Viz translated used contact instead of saw when brook is remembering the last time he saw Gunko

[limpid grail]

yeah, and brooks says she was not a CD last time he had contact with her

[fickle vortex]

As I stated before, it seems that Brook never been to Marie geoise before

[limpid grail]

agreed, unless his memories were altered.

if with a covenant with Imu, that is certainly possible

[limpid grail]

[hardy elm]

I think Gunko could go one of two ways:

1. Her family were trying to become CDs. Gunko was branded as part of the deal to be Imu's handmaiden for some reason, and she was then used to kill the father in front of Brook. Fairly unlikely as I don't see Imu reneging on deals.

2. CDs will arrive who want the queen for her musical talents. This niftily sets up beef between Brook and the CDs directly rolling into the final arcs. I'm less sure of how Gunko ends up killing the king in this scenario. Perhaps the queen dies defending herself and her daughter, then Gunko is similarly branded and used to kill the king.

[wheat sparrow]

wonder if Saul will end up being the "man with the burn scars" after all and the ship stuff is just a red herring

he does have extensive scarring in Elbaf

only thing that's weird is the road poneglyph went missing a long time ago. would've had to happened almost in the same year as Ohara was destroyed

the all-black ship could be a ship that was charred in Ohara but survived

[glass acorn]

I think it can work if we handwave the whirlpools into some sovereignty esque giant technique

But giving 3 clues and having one be a red herring would be bs

[mental berry]

@dense rose or @ripe mist can i report something to one of you

[dense rose]

Sure what’s up, feel free to DM

[wheat sparrow]

Whirlpools could be assistance Saul got from someone in the fishman isles in secret

im expecting the road poneglyph reveal in elbaf arc

[glass acorn]

I'd accept pretty much any answer I'd just be bummed if the answer was something like "oh that's just a rumor"

[wheat sparrow]

oh yeah def

but lafitte also suspected it's a devil fruit power cos what else could it be but like

there's no knowledge if it's something hinokizu himself is capable of doing

if we consider the chance that he didn't act alone, it could very well be saul

timeline is possible, scars match, knowledge of history matches, he has a clear motive to secure that poneglyph

[sacred trellis]

Hes also a government man, formerly

[chrome rock]

i honestly enjoyed the episode more than the chapter itself. the paneling on the chapter was a bit off for me and it kind of took out the emotion of meeting saul again. However, the episodes pacing is great and the way they cut between both timelines really did it for me.

[urban heart]

First. This channel, as explained in the description , is for only serious, high effort discussions about OP. No off topic will be allowed, among other things. Please take a look at the description for more info.

[urban heart]

Channel's open bros.

[safe crystal]

cool

[noble sonnet]

ho

[harsh lodge]

Please give it a fresh start, lets not spam!

[cinder anchor]

should put slowmode so this kind of stuff doesnt happen

[prisma star]

so what shall we discuss

[ionic isle]

the aftermath of kaido's defeat?

[harsh lodge]

preferably something serious

[coarse hazel]

@ripe mist

Get in here

[noble sonnet]

pos-raid

[stiff osprey]

Goodluck, manga serious enjoyers

[safe crystal]

atleast i got first message

[ripe mist]

Oh my god I am so happy

Here we go

[sleek nimbus]

[ripe mist]

BM’s kingdom is fundamentally more ethical than the world government. Poverty does not exist, food and housing are plentiful, healthcare is not an issue. BM’s kingdom does not employ slave labor.

The WG enables rape and slavery of the CD’s and actively seeks to conquer unincorporated kingdoms. The WG has a long history of genocide and indiscriminate slaughter of civilians.

To our knowledge, BM’s kingdom has noble goals and people are only forced to participate after deciding to join. By all measures, the life lost ends up being less than the life lost to labor as a part of the WG. Adding all the additional stresses listed above, BM gives people a great deal.

[noble sonnet]

but same with WG, the head of those kingdoms are tyrants

[harsh lodge]

By all measures, the life lost ends up being less than the life lost to labor as a part of the WG.
Is this a quantifiable value or is it just an assumption?

[noble sonnet]

BM can destroy her own kingdom on a bad day

[ripe mist]

BM has shown no willingness to kidnap and rape her occupants whereas we have examples of the CDs kidnapping people's wives

[noble sonnet]

true

[merry meadow]

The WG conquers kingdoms? Thought that was a Wano only thing, poor countries are left alone

[hollow flower]

BM constantly performs hostile takeovers of countries wym

[ripe mist]

If we assume 40 hours of work per week in the WG, BM is definitively less life lost

[hollow flower]

murder is also condoned in her kingdom.

people still work in tottoland

[ripe mist]

to what extent, this is news to me, am I just totally wrongly assuming here?

My impression was that people do not have formal jobs in her kingdom other than her crew/family

[noble sonnet]

can a nation works without people having jobs?

[broken venture]

they doo

[hollow flower]

they do still have jobs. there was the mayor dude in chocolate town, and presumably there is a job for "demolishers" which is what pudding said luffy and chopper were doing

[silent mountain]

I wouldn't like to put either the way wg functions or either bm's Kingdom functions above . True that Wg gives infinite privileges to cd and ignores act of slavery and discrimination but on the other hand people in bm's Kingdom have to live under a constant threat of big mom like we saw how she can kill anyone when she goes on rampage

[hollow flower]

along with people just running their own businesses and w/e

[harsh lodge]

there's also things like chocolate shops

[ripe mist]

I'm going to need to do some more research then because my impression was that the common guy does not have a job and simply exists

[harsh lodge]

What was the life trade to BM in order to stay in the kingdom each year?

[hollow flower]

no, we just don't see them doing their jobs. people have jobs.

2 months every yr iirc

[harsh lodge]

Oh, a lot less than I'd imagined.

[ripe mist]

My impression was that BM's various worker homies and the devil fruit users (such as cracker and the food making guy) are the ones who provide most labor

Similar to how BM's main army is just her homies

[vague mirage]

I think they wouldn't be useful for more specialized labor tho

for simple stuff sure

[ripe mist]

Hmmm, I will need to verify this

I remember walking away from the WCI arc with the impression of "common folk don't need to perform labor", but I have been VERY wrong before, so I will perhaps re-read WCI

[hollow flower]

I mean, if you mean they don't have common folk in their military, then yes. It's mostly comprised of either cracker soldiers, homies, or her kids. if not solely.

but everyone else still has their own jobs and stuff. we just don't see much of it. but we see enough that we can kinda extend the logic

[harsh lodge]

the city squares do seem to be bustling at unusual times tbh, when people would usually be at work

but the same can be said about dressrosa

[hollow flower]

the same can be said about anywhere

[ripe mist]

I think I never noticed a person having a labor job, but I will look through the chapter to investigate. I could have sworn no one was working a 9-5

[hollow flower]

I mean, there is a job for demolishers, so idk.

[merry meadow]

Found this dude on the wiki, looks like human police officers exist as well

https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Choco_Police

[ripe mist]

its not a reasonable request, but do you know the chapter for the demolisher stuff?

[noble sonnet]

people have to have jobs, what else they gonna do ?

[ripe mist]

whatever people do when they retire?

[hollow flower]

this alone says to me that's run by much more than homies and ministers.

[merry meadow]

827, policeman appears and demolishers are mentioned

[vapid spire]

I will say I agree with Mohdoo here.
If I were born as a Fishman in Government territory, I'd be at a great risk of suffering a racist attacks and/or being enslaved with the World Government doing absolutely nothing, because fundamentally, the entire system is founded on discrimination, as the Celestial Dragons quite literally make efforts to keep every single being that isn't them on a length lower than a shoulder and still financially supports slave trades while encouraging newborns to practice them. Oh, and they are also protected by the only army with any relevancy around the world, as well by their strongest soldiers.
On Totoland, while still a flawed land due to being ruled by a child in an old woman's body, a fishman does not have to worry about getting kidnapped and sold to slavery and is actively encouraged by the foundations of the country to fight against any form of racism. All this while still being able to eat as much as they like with the infinite amount of food the country produces.

[hollow flower]

also having private property would mean people earn capital

[ripe mist]

One thing I want to point out is that even if you have to do some amount of work, I still think BM's territory is the superior choice. Thomas has done a good job at outlining why

[vague mirage]

wci is definitely a good choice

[noble sonnet]

but a jobless life aint specifically a good life, i mean, i m thinking about the human needed of invert time on something productive, they wont necesary be happyu for no having anythin to do at all

[vague mirage]

you already pay with your lifespan by working yourself to death anyway

[ripe mist]

If I knew my wife could be kidnapped and raped in the WG, or not in WCI, I will clearly choose WCI

[vague mirage]

at least in tottoland you have the protection of a yonko

[little radish]

I do not recall any other instances of this, so I would assume the Choco Police (and any other police departments, as well as other law enforcers) in Whole Cake Island are a separate organisation that bears no connection with law-keeping forces and public security organisms across the world.

[noble sonnet]

ye i agree with this

[ripe mist]

It is important to remember that during Sabaody, a guy was killed for being upset his wife was kidnapped by a CD

[harsh lodge]

the protection of an emperor who is essentially a huge baby?

[vague mirage]

I mean it's not much different from a natural phenomenon like hurricanes

ppl live in those danger zones regardless

[noble sonnet]

yes, WCI is kinda isolated of WG, isnt it?

they have their own system

[hollow flower]

Do you though? Luffy and his crew were like, allowed into Tottoland essentially. BM knew he was coming, and let him through anyway. What protection did Big Mom offer exactly if Luffy was a violent pirate?

They went through a lot of islands before arriving at WCI

[ripe mist]

BM suffered from arrogance the same way every single enemy of Luffy did

[hollow flower]

which only then did Cracker step in

[vapid spire]

To be fair, it was part of a stupid plan on her part

[ripe mist]

Kaido is in the dirt right now because of under estimating Luffy. We can't pretend that is a BM problem

[noble sonnet]

the protection is that eventually the pirate invasor will face some sweet commander

[hollow flower]

and who is to say she doesn't constantly have stupid plans?

[harsh lodge]

i dont see the necessity for something like, a bath or a clothes shop as privately owned property if there is no exchanging of currency for it, or people running it

[hollow flower]

How do we know Kid, infamous for killing civilians, didn't kill civilians?

[harsh lodge]

tbf i've assumed it's privately owned, but we know there can be privately owned property regardless

[hollow flower]

Like, you are offered protection in name only, which yes, sometimes the name alone is enough. but BM herself doesn't really get involved unless it's direct. BM isn't fighting for her civilians like WB would've.

[ripe mist]

Choc I think BM having her territory in and of itself shows she can mostly provide safety

As the story is written, the current situation is a HUGE outlier

[hollow flower]

yeah but she doesn't directly do it.

[ripe mist]

We are made to assume Luffys do not just waltz in every so often

[alpine lagoon]

It goes for most big names offering protection , it's just name only
Even garp just put up a sign in his hometown
Does nothing else for it

[vapid spire]

She probably does, but considering how up until Luffy everything else was working just fine... It seems like the stupid plans were pretty infallible to that point.

[ripe mist]

And it is important to remember the goal to beat is not "invincible" the goal to beat it "better than having your wife kidnapped and raped legally" @hollow flower

[harsh lodge]

to be fair, she has outsourced the work here, and the fodder were just silly. I'm sure if it was recognized, then there would have been a bigger ruckus

[hollow flower]

in fact it's kinda outright stated. BM doesn't get involved, she leaves it up to her kids. but still, nothing was stopping from Luffy killing everyone on Chocolate Town if he wanted to

[vapid spire]

Despite the case of Luffy, Big Mom had a pretty competent army

[alpine lagoon]

Even wb claimed fmi for himself, not like he actively deployed staff for protection

[hollow flower]

it's not just that, there were snails in the ocean that directly reported to her that they were coming.

[harsh lodge]

gotcha

[noble sonnet]

ooo right, yea, the people on chocolate town werent that safety after all

[vapid spire]

Although, when you consider people like Luffy these are like still 1 in a billion cases

[ripe mist]

And what about Arlong? Those islands were under WG protection and paying off a few marines gave him free reign. I am not saying BM makes everyone invincible. I am saying the WG is SO BAD that BM's territory is clearly better

[hollow flower]

don't think nami's island was under WG protection

it was just a village

not a kingdom

[rapid patio]

Serious chat is open let’s goooo

I think I agree with this

[hollow flower]

but yeah. Some places in WG suck. but also, Alabasta is miles better than WCI

[vapid spire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Totoland was never famous for being constantly raided up until Luffy happened

[weak turtle]

Nami's island was protected/visited by patroling Marines iirc, the mouse dude

[hollow flower]

and Alabasta is part of the WG

[weak turtle]

Arlong paid him off

[hollow flower]

yeah Marines doing their job doesn't mean like, the island was WG controlled

[vapid spire]

A marine was constantly bribed to not report back to their base that Arlong ruled the land with an iron fist

[weak turtle]

Regardless, Tottoland as an island is probably among the safest in the world if you can handle the cons

[ripe mist]

It was under marine protection

[noble sonnet]

i mean, the sole name of BM makes random pirates kept away from there

[hollow flower]

It was marines doing their job, there was no marine base or something

there's a distinct difference

[weak turtle]

Navy Base 16 was probably a different island

[noble sonnet]

while this doesn't ocurred with WG kingdoms who are invaded by pirates all the time

[hollow flower]

the base was somewhere else though

it wasn't on that island

[weak turtle]

Yep

[vapid spire]

And that's why I believe I'd feel better under Big Mom's protection than the WG as a fishman

[noble sonnet]

but yea, is a hard comparison because the WG territory is way more large and wide than WCI

[cloud plume]

Nice first topic
I think the pros end up outweighing the cons, 1 month lifespan every 6 months ain't so bad in the one piece world given the WG stuff can kill people pretty quickly and heavily, and Big Mom's occassional rampage I'd imagine eventually gets repaired

[weak turtle]

I'd feel more safe under BM than even if I was on a WG associated island

[ripe mist]

It doesn't need to be on that specific island for it to be a territory considered protected by the marines. Marines were paid off, as linked above. They were the implied defenders

[weak turtle]

Nezumi was probably assigned to patrol there yeah

[vapid spire]

Yeah, I don't care about living a shorter life if it means I don't risk getting put into a lifetime of slavery

[hollow flower]

they're not specifically defending the island. They were called to the island because arlong took it over. No one was defending the island prior to arlong's takeover.

[ripe mist]

Choc if you were to guess, how long could Arlong have taken over one of BM's islands?

[weak turtle]

"Patrol ship"

[harsh lodge]

I'm not sure of the context for these, but the BM officers seemed more than willing to murder to get ingredients just to feed their tyrannical ruler a wedding cake

[hollow flower]

How long could Arlong have taken over an island in the grand line? Not very long. The point was that the Marines couldn't send better agents out to east blue because it wasn't really deemed necessary.

which is fair, it's largely peaceful

[cloud plume]

That being said about Totto Land, what would happen if Big Mom were to fall, I wonder who would take care of those people in Totto Land who wouldn't deserve to lose their homes and lives because the emperor fell to some group of pirates?

[ripe mist]

So long as Nami's island would have safer under BM's kingdom, I think it is still a fair point

[weak turtle]

The Charlotte Pirates takeover to continue protection

[hollow flower]

Okay and they'd be safer in Alabasta too.

[ripe mist]

Also true, it isn't uniform, but all of BM's kingdom is safe from what we know, other than extremely abnormal pirates

[weak turtle]

Honestly, it would seem that the Charlotte Pirates were focusing on civilian protection. Didn't seem cruel whatsoever to their own people

[vapid spire]

It's unknown if these islands were under Big Mom's control, but no one is arguing that Big Mom is a benevolent leader overall, on the contrary, she's a despicable person. But in the end, a fishman won't be discriminated by his race in Totoland and won't risk serving a lifetime of slavery due to his race origins.

[hollow flower]

extremely abnormal pirates like BM herself?

[cloud plume]

Would that be able to hold up without major enemy attacks from Marines or other emperors?

[weak turtle]

No but how often will that happen? You're more likely to get attacked by a Supernova

And they can be dealt with much more easily

[ripe mist]

You are right to point out that BM went on a rampage, but the context is important. And I'd still choose that risk over the risk of my wife being kidnapped by a CD

[weak turtle]

The children actively try to contain the damage and rampage

[hollow flower]

idk, CDs don't normally come down and kidnap people.

while BM rampaging might be more frequent

[weak turtle]

It's 100% a con, but the benefits outweigh it

imo

[noble sonnet]

they arent that good; they prolly wont hesitate on killing fodders if they complain on any sorta, similar of the pic macks just send above

[ripe mist]

All we know is that when the CDs showed up to Sabaody, one of them saw a pretty lady and stole her. I am left to assume this is not an uncommon event

[hollow flower]

in sabaody, maybe.

[weak turtle]

Those are supposedly on different islands

The ingredients

[cloud plume]

Also keep in mind Big Mom's rampages might be more limited to Whole Cake Island, rather than the other islands in Totto Land

[hollow flower]

but that's only 1 island, not even a WG affiliated one, and it's directly below where the CDs live

[cloud plume]

if they don't want to deal with Big Mom, just go to the further islands

[weak turtle]

Depends on the food I would assume

[ripe mist]

Proximity does not determine if they can kidnap people or not

[hollow flower]

no, but it determines how often they'd go there.

[ripe mist]

that's true/fair

[vapid spire]

Well, as I said before, the CDs are supposed to be the "gods" representing the entire system supposed to protect everyone under it, and yet they actively have a culture of putting everyone below them down and participate in slavery

[hollow flower]

CD going all the way to East Blue was a rarity.

[ripe mist]

But CD rarely going to East Blue was also why Nami's island was conquered with a little bit of pay off

[vapid spire]

If your system claims to be against slavery but your gods ruling it support it, I'm not gonna choose to live under it

[cloud plume]

Even ignoring CDs, other races just have it rough across WG islands in the grand line for 100 reasons

[ripe mist]

We are told slaves literally die from providing moving sidewalks for CDs. No such deaths occur in BM territory

There is no slavery at all in BM territory

[weak turtle]

Choc are you arguing Saboady is among the safest islands in general, or simply that it's safer than Tottoland?

[hollow flower]

yes, but CDs aren't the ones running the countries. You can say they are hypocritical and evil and w/e, but if the topic is "what is the best place to live" then there's probably loads of WG affiliated countries that are way safer and way better than Tottoland.

[ripe mist]

Choc, just to be clear, are you saying you would choose WG territory if you had the choice?

[hollow flower]

What WG territory?

[ripe mist]

Or are you just pointing out BM territory has issues too?

Let's specify:

You roll dice to determine which island you live on:

BM
WG

Which do you choose? It is completely random

[hollow flower]

Do I get to choose the specific island? If I do, then yeah, I'd probably find a specific WG island that's much better than Tottoland.

[ripe mist]

People on Law's island didn't get to choose

[hollow flower]

People on WCI didn't get to choose either

when BM killed them because she wanted cake

[vapid spire]

Well Choc, the CDs are the de jure rulers of the world, and the World Government is also ran by them. So if you really want to go by the laws of the world, they are your rulers. Especially when countries are actively forced to by a "Heavenly tax" for their graceful protection.

And if you don't pay the tax? Well....

Good luck

[cloud plume]

Could just live further away in the smaller islands so you don't have to deal with Big Mom's tantrums

[hollow flower]

yeah but who made the ruling decisions in places like Dressrosa, or Alabasta, or FMI or wherever else? It's whoever rules that specific island.

[ripe mist]

I feel like we are left to assume King Nefertari was killed though lol

If I had to choose between a remote BM island or a remote WG island, I'm choosing BM

[cloud plume]

How much interpretation of the event in question do we have left?

[ripe mist]

I'd roll the BM dice rather than WG dice any day of the week

[cloud plume]

Never mind, I thought we were digressing to a different topic

[hollow flower]

I'm not saying the CDs or Gorosei or Im are such gracious and benevolent rulers, but largely, they're irrelevant to how specific kingdoms are run aside from the tax.

[ripe mist]

Choc are you saying you'd be randomly assigned a WG island rather than randomly assigned a BM island?

[hollow flower]

idk, we haven't really seen all of the WG islands.

there's a lot

so I'd be rolling with incomplete info. If you want me to make a dice roll, I'd need the full statistics.

how many good vs bad islands on both

[ripe mist]

So what about just based on the One Piece canon so far

[hollow flower]

idk, probably WG?

WG does bad shit, but how often does it happen, and how likely is it to specifically affect you are the things to focus on.

[ripe mist]

It is possible that me being married skews my perspective. When I saw a guy get killed because he was sad his wife got kidnapped, I was like "well that is clearly not ok" whereas I saw BM's kingdom made of candy and thought "that might be nice"

[vapid spire]

Well, those same countries were actively exploited by pirates that were supported by the WG and FMI was actively exploited for slavery while the government did nothing for years on end.
Also, just going back to my Fishman scenario, only FMI would I feel safer somewhat, the others do not guarantee my safety for my racial background, because again, I could get snatched out of nowhere and sent to a slave shop to get bought by a CD and my ruler wouldn't be able to do anything because defying them literally means an Admiral gets to destroy your country.

[cloud plume]

Choc, is there maybe a specific island you have in mind that might outweigh any given island in Totto Land?

[hollow flower]

fishmen aren't the only people that are sold as slaves. they're just viewed as highly valuable.

[ripe mist]

Giants > fishmen > all right? from a slave value perspective

[weak turtle]

There’s so many risks associated with a WG island, ESPECIALLY in the Grand Line, and I’m also assuming we’re talking about the Great Age of Piracy

[harsh lodge]

yeah mohdoo

mermaids were most expensive iirc

[vapid spire]

I need to get off now, but to me the issue isn't necessarly how often it happens, but the fact that your rulers and your foundations actively support the practices

[ripe mist]

Yes, that is a part of my assumption Eman

[weak turtle]

New Era I’d give some credence to the idea of Tottoland being unsafe

Due to the focus of piracy in the New World

[ripe mist]

Thanks for participating, @vapid spire , see ya later. I think you made some great points to get this channel off to a stellar start

[coarse hazel]

You've said this twice now and its semantics but he actually lived! Zoro made sure he got taken away to get medical help iirc

[hollow flower]

I don't remember if W7 was specifically a WG island, so I'll exclude it for now. but like, places like Alabasta and Dressrosa were good prior to the warlord stuff.

[little radish]

We've seen several times what being in the World Government entails.
You can get put into slavery at any given moment. You are subjected to Marine corruption. The heavenly tax can break a country down to high poverty rates, and it usually leads leaders to corruption.
The countries which have witness any sense of prosperity are those which are mostly self-governed and lead by wise leaders such as Alabasta, Dressrosa, and the Sakura Kingdom. All three of them have no Marine presence, but some distinctions can be noted:

• Alabasta has to deal with dry seasons which have to be tightly managed by King Cobra.
• Dressrosa was a rather poor country were they made do all year long, but didn't get to suffer from other factors.
• The Sakura Kingdom has, so far, held up nicely, and is probably the best out of the three, but we've been shown it has a rather small population which is actually easier to manage.

[ripe mist]

Alright fair enough but the wife was still gone and that's enough for me to be upset about

Great post Steph

[little radish]

Water 7 is unlikely to be a proper recognised country, and they dealt with a lot of poverty until they started taking in contracts with the World Government. I am led to believe it is an independent city that stands its ground by direct negotiation with the regents of the world rather than being properly incorporated.

[hollow flower]

yeah steph, it's about 50/50 on what we've seen so far. Some are in bad spots, and some were pretty good, still with some flaws, but overall alright.

[ripe mist]

Choc is your main BM territory concern her rampage? Or is there something else?

[hollow flower]

she doesn't care

it's the rampaging, it's the pride, it's the volatility.

[ripe mist]

Volatility?

[hollow flower]

Her mind can flip in an instant.

[ripe mist]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but we are led to assume her territory was extremely stable pre-Luffy

[hollow flower]

No I mean BM herself is volatile.

[coarse hazel]

He means her hunger pangs.

She will just destroy the place on a whim depending on her mood.

[hollow flower]

not just that. stuff like the Tama thing. If you say the wrong thing even slightly, you're on the hit list.

you can go from her favourite person ever to public enemy #1 in an instant.

As a ruler, she is incompetent, and her incompetence is offset by the competence of her kids. the problem is, she overrules her kids, so like, yeah, it CAN be peaceful because her kids are not little shits like she is, but then if BM wants it to be, it can not be, and no one will stop her

and if they try, they're punished for it

it's like, very emblematic of the WG itself really.

A king can be competent, but a CD can fuck you over. BM in the case of Tottoland, is the CD.

[vapid spire]

Everyone being at risk of being sold as a slave makes it even worse.
Also, we'd be lying to ourselves if Fishmen weren't actively seen as subhumans and inferior by other humans, something that the government never cared to actually fight against, and perhaps even encouraged it

I just don't see a reason why a Fishman wouldn't feel safer in a place where he's guaranteed to not be discriminated by race and one that's been famous for being competent and tightly secured

[ripe mist]

I'd say for fishmen, the choice is 100% clear

[silent mountain]

For example

I would consider albasta safer than bm's land honestly

[ripe mist]

Even though Croc essentially overthrew it?

[void heath]

alabasta during crocodile reign or alabasta in general?

[silent mountain]

Albasta in general

[little radish]

I think the general takeaway from this is the fact the countries that fare better in the World Government are those that are self-governed proves the system is not only flawed, but a failure. A centralised government cannot provide the grounds for prosperity in the long run and, as seen with Dressrosa and its allied nations, collaboration is a better alternative for countries that are unable to achieve prosperity on their own.

[silent mountain]

Albasta in croc's reign was very specific case

[hollow flower]

croc was like, 3 years of a kingdom with thousands of years of history.

[void heath]

ah. Yeah without the sandstorms crocodile was whipping up as well as the water issues caused by him, ye its not safer than BM's territory

[ripe mist]

I agree Steph that Dressrosa is another example of WG failure

[ripe mist]

For me the main thing is that there wasn't really a mechanism to prevent it

Croc would not be able to slowly take over a BM island

Same with Doffy

[little radish]

From what we were told in the Alabasta flashbacks, King Cobra was well equipped to deal with the regular droughts, and the population at large seemed to fare rather fine during those times. It was Crocodile's intervention what sent Alabasta into disarray through an overextended drought.

[left cedar]

the way BM's org is set up even if one of them got an island they would lose it in hours

[noble sonnet]

but this is because is easier to protect a small part of territory than a whole planet of territory i guess

[ripe mist]

True, but that just means BM's territory is better because its easier to defend

Its not a matter of "who is doing a good job", it is where would you want to live

[hollow flower]

Croc would be able to destroy a couple before BM or her kids get to him though. Nothing really prevents indiscriminate violence. Which is kind of an issue there. Croc, while bad, at least tried to act like a virtuous leader. He would kill off blatantly violent pirates before they had a chance to do anything.

[ripe mist]

All of the detection in the ocean means BM can see people coming a long ways away. She was just arrogant with Luffy

[left cedar]

your options are either no water, possibly turned into a toy and or slave gladiator or you sell bits of your soul periodically I'd rather go without water

[ripe mist]

But arrogance via Luffy is like the entire series lol

[hollow flower]

she was arrogant with kid and apoo and urouge too I'm sure

[noble sonnet]

but also means that there cannot exist a good comparison between them, is like compare the politics of an isolated small country with a grand country that influence over other nations (didn't wanted to mention IRL countries tho)

[silent mountain]

Yeah like basically crocodile planned his way slowly and steadily towards taking over the kingdom and yeah there wasn't a mechanism by wg to protect albasta from that but that doesn't mean that albasta in general is worse than bm's land in general cause we know albasta does well enough in usual times and people continue living their normal live under the protection king cobra unlike bm's land where people have to pay 2 months of their sould every year even to live and to add on to that there is constant threat of bm rampaging and killing randomly whoever she wants

[ripe mist]

you are right that they are not 1:1 comparable Nai, but I am saying "which do you move to, if given the choice"

[left cedar]

alabasta for sure

[noble sonnet]

oooo

[left cedar]

good king, just a lack of water

[ripe mist]

@left cedar the general logic I have been using is:

Choose which kingdom you roll dice to determine which island WITHIN THAT KINGDOM you live in:

WG
BM

Maybe you roll Alabasta, but maybe you roll Law's hometown

[left cedar]

Oh

[little radish]

There's no right choice. Getting a random island in the World Government means you are not guaranteed a good country like Alabasta. Getting a random island in Tottoland means you are not guaranteed to be free from Big Mom's rampage, and you are also forced to yield your own lifespan against your will, with no chance of ever getting out of the country.

[ripe mist]

If I got to choose where in the WG I get to live, clearly I choose Marie Jois lol

[void heath]

oh I typed what I said wrong

without crocodile alabasta is safer than BM's territory

[left cedar]

still any WG owned island (depending on the time) is better

[ripe mist]

What about Sabo's island?

[left cedar]

godvalley White town

goa kingdom

[silent mountain]

Also like do we know where the slaves of cd come from usually

[noble sonnet]

what do you mean by white town by the way?

[ripe mist]

Dressrosa?

[silent mountain]

Are they from grand line most of the times?

[left cedar]

isnt that law's hometown?

did I fuck up the name

[ripe mist]

nah i think that's right

the place with white stuff that makes you die

[void heath]

dont think theyre from a specific place, but mostly from the grand line probs. Doubt Celestial Dragons travel to other seas

[left cedar]

Yh

[hollow flower]

Like another thing you have to remember is a lot of BMs territory is hostile takeovers, while a lot of WGs territory is diplomatic takeover. So like idk, would you want to live in Broccoli Island or w/e before Bobbin supposedly killed off a bunch of people and took it over?

[noble sonnet]

Flevance

[hollow flower]

yeah they did once that we've seen, but it was considered a rarity

[left cedar]

AH

[ripe mist]

I do not think we have reason to think all WG is diplomatic

[hollow flower]

with sabo flashback

[ripe mist]

The whole point of the void century is a big war

[void heath]

was the stuff from BM where she had people take food from islands, from her own territory?

[ripe mist]

In fact we are pretty clearly shown the WG is not consensual

[void heath]

I thought it was non territory islands

[silent mountain]

Yeah so that's like one point too, for example the kingdoms situated in east ,north,west or south blue has comparatively less threat of slavery and all than grand line so the threat level varies from place to place too

[hollow flower]

wasn't it? I figured that's how it was how her territory expanded. Go after islands that produce specific foods or w/e

[prisma star]

same, bc she wouldnt really need to kill them all to take it, theyd just give it up for her

[void heath]

I dont think there would be a "war" there if it was that way

so I imagine its from islands not in her terrotiry

[left cedar]

they probably felt safe considering BM's strength and infamy

[noble sonnet]

which show us that BM pirates didnt care about the civilians of WCI

[left cedar]

a shame she literally was a danger to everyone there if she had a food craving

[vapid spire]

I’m genuinely convinced the One Piece is tied with the ancient weapons and it’s a world changing phenomenon

Maybe like all of them work together to change the physical nature of the earth

[left cedar]

I can't see them being used in unison to change anything other than the redline

[vapid spire]

Maybe bring together all the islands? Make it “one piece” lol

[left cedar]

lol

[vapid spire]

Pangaea 2

[hollow flower]

I guess the question is more, what was Tottoland before BM? Was that hostile or not?

[left cedar]

it does look like it'd be a place where people could settle naturally

[hollow flower]

'cause I always figured that WCI was the first island she declared her territory, and since Tottoland is just a lot of different islands, the other islands were ones she slowly took over.

[noble sonnet]

still the treasure of one piece has to be something material, no only a plan to what to do with the ancient weapons, tho this aint completely rejected

[left cedar]

but the politics of it is just not there since we don't know what it was like before she was there

I do hope we get to see the news of the reviere after they're all done partying

[weak turtle]

This makes the most sense to me

[ripe mist]

Yeah, its hard to say. I would love to see a mini-arc where we see the formation of all the Yonko empires. Like when did Shanks become a yonko etc

[silent mountain]

Who protected fmi before big mom

Wasn't it wb

[ripe mist]

yes

[noble sonnet]

it was WB

[ripe mist]

And I think Roger before that

[silent mountain]

Yeah that's another interesting thing

[weak turtle]

There’s the idea out there that Shanks was in East Blue specifically to find Ace, as the son of his former captain, but after he placed the bet on Luffy himself he decided to continue his journey and rise up in the New World to be in a position to “guard” Laughtale

[silent mountain]

What lead to them protecting fmi

[vapid spire]

I'm still convinced Big Mom has better morals than the WG itself, which has kingdoms under them that not only have practices of racism, but also ones with nobles which participate in burning down areas because they have poverty to "appease" the rulers of the CD. Big Mom was shown to go on a rampage because people who fed her were hurt.

[spiral thorn]

i think for this, oda probably wont ever really expand on that in the story unless its central to their character and for most yonko, i highly doubt it. maybe oda might explain what they did to become a yonko more in an sbs but i dont see the relavance of including it in the story.

[ripe mist]

Its a decent assumption

[weak turtle]

Why WB decided to protect FMI is unknown yeah? Unless there’s some Jinbei connection there

[noble sonnet]

no quite sure about this according to Roger's personality, but dont mind me a lot

[vapid spire]

(to add more context)

[ripe mist]

I think WB protected FMI for the same reason he was familiar with Lunarians: He has a rough idea as to what happened during the void century and he understands the WG are totally the bad guys of the situation and FMI deserved protection

[noble sonnet]

agree

[spiral thorn]

Well that may be true but how justified are those rules of governance when the payment is lifespan? Would her crimes really be justified by her overarching ideals?

Outside of children, she seems very nonchalant over killing random people. She isn't mentally balanced either so i wouldn't say she's morally sound either. She just has good intentions from virtue of being a child and having more idealistic (like luffy) views of the world.

[ripe mist]

By my estimation, Rocks convinced people like WB to join his crew by showing them why the WG was the "no matter what" bad guy of the world. BM, who wanted a world with harmony of all races, and WB, who wanted nothing more than a big family, would only join Rocks if he had a noble goal. he likely shared his knowledge of the void century with BM and WB and the whole crew and that is why those 2 specifically joined

[devout plover]

Hell, she was even willing to kill Tama for leaving her

[hollow flower]

This part is like, super hypocritical though, and I think that was the point. She does similar things, and her code of honour was meaningless the moment tama simply denied going with her over the SHs.

[vapid spire]

I don't care if about living a shorter life span if it means my life will be a good one. The government puts you into a lifetime slavery and protects the people who practice it, that is much worse in my opinion. She may not be mentally fit, but she still has better foundations to make a country than the WG ever could in the 1000 years of their existence.

[weak turtle]

I can understand this

All until wondering how would Rocks know so much

[spiral thorn]

Yeah, similar to how luffy was able to unite people under the shared goal of beating doffy in dressrosa, i'd assume rocks did something similar with the WG and his crew members.

People like WB, BM, Kaido, are all too different and difficult to manage just from sheer power (although he certainly was THAT strong to keep them in check) so the best way to just oversee them is through a shared enemy. Something like the enemy of my enemy is my friend

[weak turtle]

I think the idea of being together under the banner of destroying the WG makes sense

[hollow flower]

She has a well known history of coercing people to do what she wants, by threats of violence. Is that really a morally upstanding ruler?

[weak turtle]

Which of course falls apart if Rocks truly betrayed them when the going got tough

[spiral thorn]

I think Rocks was able to convince WB/BM/etc to have the common enemy of the celestial dragons through his knowledge of taboo topics of the world. Not sure how they really intertwine but there is a lnk

[ripe mist]

3 eyed tribe, same as my estimation of BB, just read glyphs and learned

[silent mountain]

If it comes to morales like sure big mom is good when it comes to topic like unifying all the races but again the dangerous side of her the hungry mom is still a threat to citizens there and that side doesn't care about anyone.Also bm is literally a pirate who may kill people who oppose the idea of joining her kingdom without even thinking once also she can destroy the kingdoms she has given protection to just if she doesn't get those candies as tribute on time.So these things are not justified too and on the other hand wg has slavery ,discrimination and can burn kingdoms when needed but on the other hand it doesn't really influence the other kingdoms much except taking the tribute for cd and lets them rule in their own way . Good example can be how well managed kingdoms albasta and dressrossa were before and after crocodile/doffy took over

[noble sonnet]

Rocks perfectly can be from Ohara right?

[weak turtle]

There’s nothing that stops Rocks from being from Ohara I believe, he’s old enough

[spiral thorn]

Exactly. Even if your life may be safer by living a shorter life, is that really morally sound either way? Is it ethical to sacrifice part of your life for a safer one because arent they both bad? Saying that the government puts you into a lifetime of slavery (this is about thomas' message, i just cant reply to both of you at the same time, sorry choc) is a bit disingenuous because theres clearly people that dont fall into that group of people. The WG do have their own examples of countires that end up successful. hell countires like alabasta, dressrosa, drum, all presumably were running just fine until the shichibukai came and ruined it.

[ripe mist]

By all indications Rocks knew more than Clover, so that feels unlikely Nai

[weak turtle]

Which, is a VERY interesting idea

[vapid spire]

She still at least tries to maintain the moral in Totoland, and it works out pretty well from what has been so far. Again, my only thing is that her own morals are way better for building a country than the WG, which have rulers than just want to live off their life by deluding themselves into thinking they are gods while the WG themselves never tried to remove them, which is why there is an entire movement built by Dragon to remove them.

[spiral thorn]

Thomas maybe read my message that i used to reply to choc, it was meant for both of you

[weak turtle]

That can happen if he learned the language and left for piracy

[hollow flower]

Does she though? What moral good does she try and maintain?

[ripe mist]

Hmmm, how does Clover and Rocks birth year compare...goes to wiki

[noble sonnet]

is clover comtemporary of Rocks?

[ripe mist]

So Clover was born 105 years ago

[hollow flower]

she captures anyone she thinks is interesting enough. she forces political marriages, and then if you try and ever separate yourself from her, she kills you. If you ever deny her, she'll kill everyone close to you.

[spiral thorn]

We know that Clover is 85 years old at the time of his death. The Robin flashback was 22 years ago. This means that Clover would be 107 years old now.

God Valley was 38 years ago which means that Clover would've been 67 during God Valley Incident.

@ripe mist

[ripe mist]

We don't know Rocks age, but I think he was younger than Clover, so I think it is very unlikely Rocks learned glyph language on Ohara without Clover also learning it

[spiral thorn]

You got that number wrong

[ripe mist]

107?

[hollow flower]

Her claims of race equality are immediately shattered when you remember she has a book of species she thinks are interesting.

[weak turtle]

I forget how widespread the language was on Ohara

[spiral thorn]

The robin flashback was 22 years ago because she was 8 at the time of the FB and she's 30 now.

[ripe mist]

It was hush hush Eman

[weak turtle]

I just assume if child Nico Robin can learn it, why not Rocks if he was from there

Ah

[vapid spire]

Mohdoo mentioned this before, but you're rolling a dice to where you're born, if you choose to roll it in WG countries, then the likelihood of you being born on a complete shit country is even bigger than in BM's lands.
The WG absolutely has influence on countries they rule, which is why Reveries even happen in the first place, and they still rely on Marine support despite having their own army.

[ripe mist]

Yeah, there are just too many terrible WG islands to make it a good roll thomas

I agree

[noble sonnet]

she is just a creepy collector; that might be besides of her pure childish dream

[weak turtle]

Regardless of how, Rocks having more knowledge than most from the Poneglyphs makes sense to me though Mohdoo

[flat nymph]

the world govemrnet just controls the world

[weak turtle]

We’ll learn more as we hear more ab Rocks

[ripe mist]

I hope so

[hollow flower]

creepy collector of living beings, yeah.

[ripe mist]

I am going to declare "Rocks Flashback manga chapter release date" a holiday for the remainder of my life

Every year, I will celebrate that day

[weak turtle]

Which is all but confirmed we’ll hear more due to how limited he was in the Kaido flashback

Imo

[ripe mist]

Agreed

[flat nymph]

why did roger fight rocks he had to do something to his friends

[spiral thorn]

Quick question, what do you guys think was rocks approx. age during god valley? Do you think it was anywhere close to 67 ( the age of Clover at the time of the Incident)

[ripe mist]

That Kaido flashback was so skimpy that Oda clearly wants to save a lot for later

[weak turtle]

Roger’s reason for fighting Rocks could’ve been he was upset at him for some reason, or wanted a hard fight

[devout plover]

Big Mom isn't ethical at all. She's a self centered psyco with a twisted world-view. She probably thinks she's moral but kills innocents for cake, she's just a different flavour of CD, one who got her own power.

[weak turtle]

Unless a reason was stated

[ripe mist]

The silhouette makes this impossible to answer

[trail prairie]

I think Rocks was around the age of Garp and Roger if not older

[spiral thorn]

according to sengoku, they had to protect celestial dragons w/ garp

[spiral thorn]

nah, rocks was a generation prior to them so definitely older.

[devout plover]

How do you guys think Big Mom keeping living beings in books forever is any more moral than Charloss wanted to keep mermaids in a tank

[trail prairie]

Roger wasn't protecting them he had his own motives

[flat nymph]

well i doubt rogers would want to protect the unless of them was a baby shanks

[weak turtle]

I doubt Roger would go out of his way to God Valley to defend CD’s unless he had other external reasons for battling Rocks

[flat nymph]

roger and luffy have parrels luffy only fights if u hurt his friends

[weak turtle]

Either he wanted a hard fight or Rocks pissed him off for some reason

I say the latter

[trail prairie]

Shanks is from an older generation than Urouge and still is younger than him

[silent mountain]

But then I don't really see a major difference between living in a bad wg country where ur in constant fear of being kidnapped and becoming slaves(this might even be an unknown aspect to the people and fear might not even exist at first place) and living in big mom's land where you live in constant fear of being killed by big mom when she goes hungry and u have to give ur 2 months lifespan every year . Cause in big mom's land there is nothing called good chance ,you are in fear all times but in wg's land there is a chance that u live in good country no matter how minor it is

[noble sonnet]

i didnt wanna talk about morals, but well, yea it is differen to be kept inside a book than bein Kumarize it, imo

[trail prairie]

Does anyone think what BM does is moral ?

[devout plover]

No, but you were saying she's better than WG