debate-arena

[terse vector]

Cya Balkan

[snow oracle]

Kaido did say there was to many users now i have to agree with him now as the pool just keeps getting fuller as the chapters roll out and i fear that as they grow in numbers that Haoshoku will lose it's value to only belong to the kings and 1 in a million people as everyone has Hasoshoku.

[terse vector]

Not exactly doe

We are getting surplus of coc users now because we are at the point where only they can make it, where only they can stand on even ground

It's like what Don Chinjao said in dressrosa about plenty of CoC users being in new world. Because only those with the making of a emperor are with enough guts, enough will to enter that place

[snow oracle]

I see

Sanji better be one of them

[terse vector]

I just want a non-coc user beating a coc user properly

[snow oracle]

Sai defeated his grandfather

[terse vector]

Hmm yeah. Well let's rephrase that by a coc user on focus

So Luffy or Presumably Zoro or a Coc having antagonist by someone without CoC

[heady orbit]

I think prime chinjao could beat sai though

[snow oracle]

I will be speaking on postives of Haki.

Haki. A wonderful addition to the series' power system and helps make it be more diverse,this helps seperate it from other series as it is has become unique to One Piece and a big part of it that many can recognize without reading or watching the series.

It brought balance to the power system as before Devil Fruit users were the ones on top, until Haki was introduced which gave way for Non-Devil fruit users to fight on the same level as now they can attack and block Logia's attacks unlike before where they had to use water to nullify crocodiles logia and Zoro had to cut steel to win against Mr.1 but with haki he cut so swiftly through the blade now without much effort and once again for haki has made fighting devil fruit users a bit more fair as there is not that much of a disadvantage anymore.

It is quite diverse and complex in a way. Haki was introduced also as a mean of closing down plot holes or some thought they were such as Shanks using Haoshoku on the Lord of the Coast and how Rayleigh was able to kick away Borsalino, well it is all haki. When Haki was being explained in greater detail, it made the world feel bigger than it was .Haki also became means to get stronger without eating a devil fruit which render you unable to swim. Haki has so many applications that we see through battles take for example Vergo who was able to coat his entire body in Busoshoku. Another great example would be gear fourth which has given us the best transformation which manage to mix devil fruit and haki together thus multiplying Luffy's power.

Haki and Devil Fruits. Haki feels more grounded thus it feels real to me as Non-Devil fruit users use this to catch they to train even harder as those with devil fruits in addition to those fruits they are training as well. Haki has become a staple part of One Piece and best part it is still developing. <@&884917716333506621>

[willow hare]

Hey all so got quickly unmuted whilst I post my side of the argument, it's only short because I've still got school work to do but wanted to contribute to this.

I think haki in the series has come to be a net positive, but I also believe that it could very easily be argued in either direction, and it's probably closer in my mind to net zero.

A really common argument I often see is that Haki has become the be all and end all of fights, that it's growing exponentially in relevance and that it makes DF's less relevant. I completely disagree with this.

Why do I believe this? I believe that up until WCI, Haki has always been a supplementary fighting characteristic that was not a quintessential element in fights- and that Devil Fruits was still the main focus. However, I believe this has intentionally shifted for the sake of the whole cake island and wano arcs. This can be shown within the over arching two main antagonists of the entirety of the yonko saga, being Kaido and Big Mom. Their Devil fruits, whilst demonstrably strong, are inherently created so that they
are mere supplements to their haki or fighting ability. Think about Kaido, whose devil fruit gives him an incredible amount of strength and durability by becoming a dragon. And Big Mom, whose soul powers are vague, but the degree to which its been used in legitimate fights in the series is very low. Both are essentially just vehicles to directly give Kaido and Big Mom more
strength and to complement their haki. They're not devil fruits done nearly as creatively as antagonists like doflamingo or crocodile, whose devil fruits are used creatively to
allow them more strength- and that is because its the central focus of the four emperor saga to develop haki. <@&884917716333506621>

[snow oracle]

[urban wasp]

Sheesh

[young geyser]

8v3 atm where my haki bad people at

[hushed night]

Well, you made very compelling points and haki good people as well

So I don't see anything that I could add to the discussion

[young geyser]

Yeah, i can see that. The first debate we had I didn't feel the need to make a comment because I felt @fast kite had already put what i wanted, so this time i didnt even read any of the long responses till I put my thoughts out

[thin marlin]

I have no time to do a long form essay to share my points

[terse vector]

Yeah Adam we are outnumbered

[thin marlin]

Feels good to be on the winning side 😎

[young geyser]

Im pretty sure i individually typed the most, so I won

[terse vector]

[hushed night]

I agree

Adam is the winner

[mellow pilot]

i feel like it's a good concept, you get in a fight with someone and the one with stronger willpower wins, but oda's inconsistent with it imo

[terse vector]

Maybe due to being on chapter week, the channel is mostly dead

[young geyser]

it's cause fats/evan both havent talked for 2 days

[hushed night]

This is just my opinion but I kinda liked the unfair aspect of the DFs which was pretty unique to OP

Yes you could train and all that to improve yourself bu DF abilities were inherently quite unfair

Which made things a bit more interesting at least to me

[viscid dust]

I honestly think Haki is just about 51% net negative, because now, I personally loved and preferred the classic episodes, before the timeskip where everything was based off of their wacky devil fruits. But in all honesty, Haki isn't necessarily the worst. I'm fine with it, I just hope Oda brings back more Devil-Fruit related opponents and fights.

[lethal falcon]

That's bbs crew

[chrome mist]

...but all the fights we have had through the timeskip were about devil fruits

[thin marlin]

Even the fights in post TS...

The first major time we've focused on Haki as a focus is on Onigashima quite recently

[chrome mist]

Caesar and his gas logia, Law and his devil fruit, Katakuri and his mochi fruit being the reason Luffy could not hit him, Big Mom's devil fruit, Kid and Law's awakenings, Franky vs Sasaki and Black maria vs Robin having devil fruits as focus, Senor Pink vs Franky, Killer vs Hawkins

These aren't even all of them considering there is still cracker vs luffy and nami and the whole chase sequence in WCI + other times

[desert wyvern]

I'm not sure I understand this criticism. Devil fruits not only haven't dropped, they've become the most central focus of almost every single fight post-skip in general.

Even now, with conqueror's coating being a thing, its greatest relevance is the fact that it can effectively fight Kaido's devil fruit.

[thin marlin]

kaido and big mom's power through their fruits became a focus, kaido's scales are especially mentioned in the conversations during the fight

[desert wyvern]

Haki's played a massive back seat to devil fruits for the entire series, without exception. Even going onto conqueror's coating, it's all about it being strong enough to finally get through a devil fruit that nothing else seemed able to fight.

Conqueror's is the first time haki being a weapon has been a particularly noteworthy thing just in and of itself, and not in response to a devil fruit ability

[thin marlin]

big mom on the other hand has only shown how dangerous her fruit is with her varied use of homie's (refer to maser canon) as well her augmenting her powers and enhancing it with her own lifespan

[hot moon]

would haki fall under the domain of an aura aura no mi

[desert wyvern]

That isn't a question for this channel. Please take a look at the channel description.

[hexed bane]

Briefly, to summarize what I feel, its definitely better to have haki in the series so that DF powers aren't the end all argument of power scaling/hiearchy and there is a way to combat and fight without sea-prism stone. Rather I feel, its integration or incorporation into the series (just as of right now) could've been done a bit better as in Marineford. Conquerors was introduced in the first few eps with Shanks using it on the sea king, and observation haki was shown in the first half of the grandline in Skypeia. Arms I think was first shown at Shabondy pre-timeskip, it is different from cp9's 'Tekkai' right. So in all before the time-skip, however, I just feel at Marineford we should've seen haki used by almost all the commanders. And also I would expect someone else to have Conquerors too besides Luffy and WB. And I would expect all shichibachi to be able to use it, and their highest ranked underlings. That's shade on Croco-boy and Mr.1 at Arabasta.

When Oda explains all by the end of the series, in which time we will see everyone has been using haki or explain why not sufficiently then it will result in a net positive by far. Right now in my opinion its a net positive, but modestly.

[hot moon]

my bad

[hexed bane]

Right now there's several instances I could flesh out with time that characters who had a given haki ability could've and should've used it but didn't, or characters at that level should've had it but we didn't see it used. For the former case, espeically Conquerors with Luffy, even at Wano. But I feel it probably is a large energy drain to use it or some disadvantage so we don't see it used as much and it'll be explained.

[viscid dust]

I know devil fruits are still extremely focused on, but haki kinda just overtakes it by just a little bit on the focus of the fight

[desert wyvern]

And is still only ever relevant in context to how it works against a devil fruit, it's almost never been the biggest focus of a fight. Even now on the rooftop with conqueror's, it's greatest relevance is the fact that it can hurt Kaido through his fruit

[hot moon]

I would argue haki has been a net 0 for the series, in the end oda made it too strict with what it can do so that all it really is is 1 to justify logias losing, and 2 to allow power scaling to keep going, other then that it really hasn't added much (besides 4th gear) and I don't think its was a bad decision on oda's part, just the series got more out of it before it was introduced then after. now its not a negative, it fills a role oda would have had to fill as some point just that's all it does, its not like nen from hunter x hunter, or hamon and stands in jojo where the versatility allows for crazy unique powers which yeas that is what devil fruits are for, but that doesn't change the fact that haki in the end fill the basic role it needed to. so I guess its like a net positive to a very small degree?

[desert wyvern]

And even having said that, we've got every other fight in the entire raid being almost haki irrelevant.

[thin marlin]

Robin and Franky especially beat their opponents with the use of their Devil Fruit and just sheer power granted by technology

[devout galleon]

when is the last day we can submit our arguments?

[desert wyvern]

We'll be closing down either Friday night or Saturday morning, depending on when the stage goes

[devout galleon]

EST right?

[desert wyvern]

There isn't a set time just yet

[devout galleon]

I mean between Friday night or Saturday morning for which time zone?

[desert wyvern]

It can be EST, but don't worry about it, you'll have time if you do it before Saturday.

I'll throw out a last call so you know as well

[hexed bane]

@fast kite I took my break to write something back haha because I do, respectfully, disagree against the nature of haki being a negative to the OP series

[devout galleon]

Ah okay thank you!!

[hexed bane]

ah i thought it would copy/paste

[fleet garden]

Haki has been a net positive for me, but I didn't elaborate as to why the last time I spoke in here. For me it's because it gave some characters new ways to develop. Now we don't need fruit users or for someone to be traditionally "strong" to be capable. One thing that bothered me about the pre-timeskip era was about how much things felt like they were based on hand to hand combat, and how people like Usopp were sidelined because they were considered "normal" and everyone else who was relevant in the series was a strong melee combatant.

In post timeskip, Usopp's abilities are much more valuable now that he has CoO and I think without it he would have been left in the dust. Haki is an ability that any and all characters can develop and it does manifest in different ways, as we've seen with Luffy and when he used CoC, Koby and his awakening of haki, and Usopp. I think it's a really great thing that I like as a net positive, and I really hope Oda keeps allowing it to manifest in such unique ways.

So it's a net positive sheerly because of the possibilities of how Oda could write it into characters for the story.

[potent olive]

As much as haki had a positive impact on one piece I think it had a huge negative impact on dfs.

The thing I have been annoyed with the most in the series is that haki seemed to top Dfs even though it shouldn’t.And even most of the fandom thinks that which is even more annoying.

Haki is way to overhyped. I seriously don’t understand the hype and what makes it superior to DFs. Okay you can hit logia types but there are other ways to damage logias(I think everyone gets that). Second you can hit someone hard with your DF depending on how good you utilize your DF for example awakening. Also haki doesn’t really benefit certain types of fighters for example long range fighters don’t really benefit much from haki.

i will admit that haki has better form of defense and it’s rather use for armor but you can be very durable if you are a zoan type.

I may have worded my paragraph wrong so I will point out what I’m trying to justify

Haki is not superior to any form of fighting style

[hollow wing]

Your first statement confuses me, do you mean that Haki has had a negative effect on the communities perception of DFs?

Cuz then you argue why DFs are still viable

[fast kite]

Basically, my issue is that what this "pressure cooker" scenario creates is a situation not in which survival is the end goal, but it's actively the method to victory. By simply surviving, which we know the main characters will do, they gain access to a power whereby it seemingly doesn't really matter who they are fighting, they will become stronger, and close that gap. And that's kinda the issue. It's taken out an element of "how?" How will they win? The haki will bloom, and they'll become strong enough to win.
I don't think haki is really doing anything different in regards to the trope of overcoming insurmountable odds by way of extreme growth. It's similarly an intangible system. There's no real difference between "power of friendship" and "power of will" to me, because they are effectively the same thing. It's tying emotion to power. Which is not inherently bad, it's just being used in such extreme ways that I dislike how it's currently being used in OP, and what kind of precedent it has set. If it's the method to victory on Kaido, arguably the strongest person, what prevents it from being the method on anyone else? Does haki not work on them? Then it just seems like a solution to a self-made problem. and if there's someone stronger than Kaido, what prevents us from getting another "pressure cooker"? Are we going to reach a point where actually haki can't bloom anymore? Until that's really shown, I have no reason to believe it.
The wartime analogy also imo, is not a good one. because my complaint is absurd growth almost instantaneously. Technology doesn't develop instantaneously. It was developed rapidly compared to out of war, yes, but it still takes time, and was made for specific use cases. and haki is quickly becoming the end-all. Honestly, in terms of Luffy alone, it's already there.
Regardless of how it's used in the future, how it has been used recently, imo, is negative on the series. and at its best, haki is inoffensive.

Idk if I worded it all properly but ye. Probably didn't address some of the points you made was kinda annoying having to switch between the image and typing it out without being able to do both simultaneously so feel free to respond back to that if you want.

[hexed bane]

Ahh yes sorry about the image. The thing is I think haki isn't something that can exponentially keep developing in pressure cooker situations, it's development will plateau with its mastery. I don't think for example Reihleigh or Shanks can go through 'haki blooms' now. And in that roughly level playing field with haki masters, other tactics will come into play that will be major determiners of the outcome. Plus haki also seems to be somewhat stamina dependant, so it can be trained in a way as well and will ultimately run out so battles may be without it if both fighters have similar haki levels and stamina. Anyway it'll depend on if Oda puts a cap on accelerated rapid growth from 'haki blooms' in pressure-cooker situations or not, but well as they master it it'll also become harder to be in pressure-cooker situations. Nonetheless if they are, as was the case with the WB pirates at MF, I don't think any of the high-level commanders who should be haki masters experienced any 'haki blooms' at that point, so I'm guessing Oda will put a cap on it. Level 1 and Level 50 can't level up at the same pace.

[fast kite]

It can't, but from a narrative perspective, is it going to stop before the series is over? Is Luffy going to hit his cap before the series ends?

[clear zenith]

Whats the topic

[fast kite]

Read the channel description before making posts. There's a topic of discussion, it's not just w/e you want to debate about.

[timber granite]

@clear zenith not the channel for this

[clear zenith]

oops sorry

i Think without haki it would have gotten boring with just dfs and Well unique fighting styles at some point. Haki really gave a reason for swordsman to be powerful and generally then it was good for powerful foes because then they had a good reason Why they were so powerful. It also fits perfectly with the dynamics of Will in one piece

[timber granite]

Gonna drop a large paragraph that’s split into parts gimme a sec

Overall haki is a net negative on the series. While there are some aspects of haki I like, there are a good amount that I think make it be not as good as it could be.

Now, I will first discuss the things about haki that I like. I like observation and conquerors haki- to an extent. A system that allows one to feel/ “see” their enemies is pretty cool actually. Some of my favorite uses have happened in Wano with king knowing the number of enemies, Ulti sensing luffy, and Kaido/BM sensing that the supernovas managed to dodge their attack. Conquerors haki is also cool as well. It is able to knock out weaker opponents, as well as if it doesn’t work let’s us know who’s a strong individual. For the most story, it’s also just a badge of honor for individuals.

Now, I will begin within these two to explain the negatives each of them bring

Observation Haki:

While I praised observation haki earlier, it’s not without its problem. My main issue is that for the most part, a non factor in fights. Two opponents with Obs and it’s just a regular fight.

The only times Obs has mattered is either when
A) Opponent has no haki so they have to figure out how to defeat them (Skypiea)
B) Opponent is leagues beyond better (WCI)

The reason I bring this up is that there’s not a lot of cases of someone having slightly better observation haki than their opponent and it being a factor into the fight. With two opponents who have Obs, it’s just ignored as if they’re usage is the exact same, only relegating them to be strong due other factors. Either having better armament haki, better resilience, being actually faster, etc., but no having better observation that would allow them to dodge.

So far in the series, with the exception of the ones in skypiea, only 4 characters have been shown to actually be “specialists” in Obs- Fujitora, Koby, Sanji and Katakuri.

1. For Sanji, it’s rarely brought up that this is his specialization during fights. There’s hasn’t been a time in an encounter that his observation has been shown to be better than an opponents. And we know his Obs is really good, having been able to dodge katakuris beans during WCI. So far in Sanjis encounters, his mastery of Obs have not been a factor.
2. For katakuri, I actually enjoy Future Sight and how he achieved it, by refining it so much so that he can see the future. It’s actually a great application. I bring this up because it goes back to my previous points, it can be refined so that the premonition aspect can bet better and better. This is never brought up for almost any character, that they work to refine their Obs and is just a an afterthought
3. Koby while we haven’t seen much of him has been stated to be refining his Obs during the reverie arc. Fujitora I speculate him to be proficient at it, and it playing a factor into his strength, as he constantly uses it to “see,” albeit that being one of the standard uses.

Conquerors Haki:

I liked conquerors haki. It was a nice “status symbol” before the events of 1010. Now, it hasn’t been explained yet so I won’t go into detail about if Conquerors if hereditary, or how one can be born with it aside from luck, but instead I’ll just talk about how boring it became.

Yes, knocking out fodder is cool. What’s not cool is just as a “punch stronger” technique. While it does make it hype seeing these characters clash, that’s all it is. There’s nothing inherently creative about it.

Armament Haki:

Not a lot for me to say here that hasn’t already been said. Can be cool but again, just more punch hard. One cool thing is that it can allow people a conventional way to defend themselves and serves as a balance for logias steamrolling all.

You can say using seastone anything to help balance out, but I’m not really going to go into that. My main issue is characters like Magellan not having armament haki. I won’t go into CP9 not having armament since they were before armament was formally introduced in Amazon Lily.

The WG/Marines are aware that it exists. It doesn’t really make much sense that Magellan, the warden of Impel Down the most secure prison, wouldn’t know armament. Again, I only bring this up as this is post Amazon Lily in which armament was formally introduced. All Vice admirals are said to have have haki so it seems like a prereq to be in that position, it’s odd that for the position of warden of the most secure prison wouldn’t have this requirement.

There are some benefits though, without armament haki a power like Laws would just reign supreme. It offers a way to defend against some devil fruit abilities.

Overall, there’s more negatives to haki than there are positives. The positives are great, but the negatives are way too glaring to ignore. There’s not much else to mention that hasn’t been said already that I don’t already agree with in terms of being a negative.

[terse vector]

finally another net negative

[fast kite]

One extra thing with Sanji, is that more focus is put on his speed moreso than his observation haki, which rarely gets focused on. It's like, at the end of the day, that raw physical speed is what seems to matter, observation haki or not.

[merry thicket]

Without haki, but still keeping the series at this length, we’d be on gear 6 or something to compensate, and at some point it just gets ridiculous

[timber granite]

Yea I sort of touch upon that. Other factors rather than actually using Obs, the thing he supposedly specializes on. Him being fast should be a plus to his Obs considering that, if not fast enough it doesn’t matter if the opponent can’t dodge. Sanji is fast enough to kick oven without being noticed by anybody, yet his Obs is never used in conjunction with it

[fast kite]

yeah. Like the only time is the one you mentioned, with the bean dodge. good enough obs to notice it, while also being fast enough to do so.

[fast kite]

I also don't really agree with this. Idk who it was, I think it was Adam, who pointed out that stuff like observation, in how it is used to sense stuff, isn't really something that needs to be tied to haki. It can exist without it. and stuff like G4, which is effectively a magical application of Luffy's fruit, doesn't need haki to exist. Oda could've written it such that G4 is a power he uses without needing something like haki. It's mostly been Wano where we've gotten a lot of extreme haki power ups which you'd need to "compensate", and that's only with the goal of Luffy individually matching power with the emperors.

[terse vector]

While I don't like the application of Advanced CoC, it didn't make sense when what a seperate branch of haki, something that only those born with it, could do was something even brook could do with his music. Or it didn't have a proper distinction of usage to seperate them as a tier above other who don't have conqueror's haki, as you could be strong without having it after all. Just knocking down the opponents with Conqueror's haki was a good hype factor, when "the very very very strongest" started playing without the crew doing anything, you would know that it is coming and it would still answer to the hype, but it just became redundant.
Would have wanted another proper usage of CoC except for knocking down the fodders, but what we got wasn't that satisfactory as we had gotten similar stuff like Advanced Armament haki before (Edit: just some grammar edit)

[fast kite]

I liked when it was more symbolic than practical. I don't think it needed to be practical to be important, and it's not like what Brook could do would be on the same scale as a CoC user, as well as it just having the same weakness as something like Apoo's fruit where you need to hear it for it to affect you.
The purely symbolic aspect of it is what made it cool for me. It symbolised that person's importance without the importance being so in your face. It felt very symbolic of it being the power of someone with "the qualities of a king", because kings have their subjects that bow down to them, while they don't really have to do anything.

[timber granite]

It’s one of my biggest gripes with haki. It’s just so stagnant and could be an useful tool rather than everything just being armament haki to punch harder. Two opponents fighting using Obs just turns into a regular fight. There’s no edge that could be there if one fighter refined it more. Maybe they can see the premonition clearer than their opponent, can and are able to either avoid ir land better attacks.

[fast kite]

yeah. It would be cool if fights between observation haki users involved a lot of dodging and such. but it just has no presence when people have similar observation haki skill.

[terse vector]

well there's still the thing with having the speed to act with the premonition, so its not always guaranteed taht fights between two with almost equal observation would be a regular fight. Like Luffy could see the attack coming from Kaido and was just barely able to dodge it

[timber granite]

For all intents and purposes, they’re all equalized in all fights for some reason

[terse vector]

well I agree with the symbolic part, but as a practical application, it just became redundant and dull

[visual flame]

As much as the system is dull and in many ways redundant, I don't mind it as a complimentary tool as long as it isn't the dominating force that makes up somebody's strength, and in the case of the Yonkou, we have to expect that Haki plays a decent role in their abilities. I do like that Devil Fruits compliment their Haki a lot of the time to enhance their abilities, especially with Luffy's creative applications, but it doesn't excuse it from becoming a strength that just isn't interesting anymore.

[fast kite]

yeah but I think the symbolic nature was more pronounced when it didn't really have much of a practical application. I think we got the worst route where the practical application was pretty bland, and simultaneously by adding a practical application, it downplays the more symbolic nature.

[timber granite]

I’d actually consider Kaido to be an anomaly since he’s basically the fastest character in the series bar Kizaru maybe. But considering luffy fought doflamingo who had Obs, and plenty of fights around from Dressrosa to now in Onigashima with plenty of people who have Obs, speed wasn’t much of a factor and they were standard fights. It’s just like getting hit by a normal attack they were just unable to dodge

[hollow wing]

It’s worse considering we spent time focusing on Luffy training on new armament techniques, only for it to be overshadowed

Armament and Obs could be the combat practical whilst Conqueror’s could remain solely for symbolic purposes

Or we go the route which people predicted and show that more proficient CoC users could break the environment with it like Shanks

I’d prefer that to punch harder

As hype as it is

[fast kite]

I think things like sky splits being a show of 'power', but (so far) only happening between people with CoC is a great "practical" point of it, but is also mostly just symbolic. Like you're not winning a fight because of it or anything, but at the same time, it's like a great symbolic show of power.

[hollow wing]

We had not just skysplitting but cool CoC effects like that in Dressrosa specifically

Chinjao vs Luffy

[fast kite]

yeah.

[hollow wing]

Luffy vs Doffy

It was a cool way of showing 2 kings clashing without it affecting the combat too much

[fast kite]

It's like what happens when 2 kings clash, you get a war. It's something big, but also not realistically doing anything.

[devout galleon]

Okay is there any way I can format my post on mobile the way I have it in my notes?

[terse vector]

You will have to manually do it ig

Like ** for bold

• for italicized
  __ on both side for underlined

[devout galleon]

No work around for attached pictures staying in their right place? Other than sending them separately

[terse vector]

Yeah just send them one by one

Idt anyone will interrupt now as the channel is inactive
It was active last time when I was busy and inactive currently when I am free

[devout galleon]

Okay well I think I’ve got mine down

Haki is a net positive for One Piece

So I want to preface this by saying that I do find it amusing that Haki being directly related to willpower kind of allows Oda to get away with the Shonen archetype of characters winning fights/getting power-ups using abstract concepts like determination and willpower and not giving up.

I can enjoy the stereotype of characters using their influence and spirit in ridiculous ways with Haki. I don’t have to turn a blind eye when I’m presented with the “I can predict your next move” or “My presence instills paralyzing fear into people” cliches since it’s been turned into a power system of it’s own. It’s even better when Rayleigh flat out tells Luffy that believing in himself is power and, while that could’ve easily become some motivational bullshit, it was turned into tangible strength that has to be cultivated and trained.

Basically, it turned stereotypes into a power system, which I appreciate honestly.

That being said, I’ll go into the reasonings for my “Haki Good” stance.

Balance and Fairness

It’s a point brought up a lot, so I won’t waste too much time with it. Haki keeps characters with what would be broken Devil Fruit abilities in check, Logia or not, in a natural manner. It gives more characters with/without DFs a realistic chance to go head to head against the DF users on top. It was needed since we knew characters are only going to keep getting stronger and have more dangerous DF abilities.

Dealing with Devil fruits without Haki would’ve eventually started straying into ‘far-fetched reasons for winning’ territory. By the time Haki starts getting explained, it’s established that, especially in Luffy’s case, fights in the series are pretty straightforward and transparent. Even when they’re creative, they’ve been based on instinct.

DF Counters

Other methods of Devil Fruit “counters” getting the spotlight in the same way Haki has would overcomplicate the story. And Haki being introduced hasn’t made those methods obsolete, they just don’t have the same type of accessibility Haki does to make them the main opposition to DFs. I’m mostly talking about seastone here.

Sure you could argue that non-DF users can use seastone weapons, but we’ve seen that seastone is difficult to work with. And even if we ignore seastone logistics, Haki has the ability to expand the limitations of Devil Fruits.

We see it with Katakuri and Doflamingo. Sabo combined Haki with martial arts and his Devil fruit against Burgess.

Hell, Fujitora uses Observation to even be able to use his fruit period. Without observation, I’d have to settle for either “blind man is very experienced and can sense things with no real explanation” or “Fujitora uses gravity to bend light rays in a way that lets his eyes perceive images” explanation. Not to say that the latter is inherently bad but having an entire series full of that gets exhausting and Haki fits much better with Devil Fruits and One Piece’s style, anyways.

My point is I just don’t see seastone being able to do the same thing for Devil Fruit users. If you reach the limit of your Devil Fruit, that would be it for you and you’d have to rely on seastone weapons way more than your ability.

Another Devil Fruit counter is water. Like seastone, it’s also a pretty relevant threat to DF users in the story, but it’s practicality is just as questionable.

​
Non DF abilities

The fighting styles we know haven’t taken the backseat to Haki, only enhanced them. I can’t really think of any characters who use a purely Haki-only approach to fights outside of Garp, only because I’m not sure if he knows Rokushiki or not.

Haki is used by swordsmen and samurai to strengthen their techniques and hardens their blades (black blades). Warriors in Amazon Lily use it for their arrows. It’s compatible with Fishman Karate, Rokushiki, Ryusoken and amplifies those. I’d even argue it’s works with Okama/Newkama/Ramen Kenpo as they’re also different forms of martial arts. So Haki’s just been an overall buff of all the preceding abilities.

Logias

The Haki is necessary to defeat logias argument is brought up a lot and while it’s not false, it is an over-exaggerated selling point for haki. First, it’s never really been said that (armament) Haki is a guaranteed way of defeating them, it only makes them vulnerable to your attacks. This goes back to the balance and fairness thing and stopping them from essentially dominating the world. But even with the logias presented post-ts, as few as they’ve been, they’ve been handled pretty differently.

We’ve seen instances of these situations: Tashigi was able to cut Monet using Haki but it wasn’t enough, Monet was faster than her.

Then we get Zoro stepping in and defeating her without using Haki.

There’s also Nami and Usopp using their abilities and teamwork to catch Caesar using seastone.

And then you have Pekoms and Jinbe one shotting Caribou using a Haki fist or Luffy just Haki punching Caesar. It keeps things refreshing, winning through pure physical power and winning through creativity or presence.

Interesting fight match-ups against Logias that people seem to think we are/will be missing out on because of the integration of Haki hasn’t been an issue so far.

Refreshing

Haki in the grand scheme of things keeps fights interesting to me. In pre-timeskip, match-ups have all been a combination of DF and non-DF users fighting. This generally gave us three types of fights (DF v DF, DF v non-DF, and non v non-DF).

Now with the addition of Haki, we get 10 possible fight match-ups with the combination of DF-only, Haki-only, DF+Haki, and non-DF+Haki users.

If we focus on the different match-ups happening now, we see fights that are more centered around Haki, like Luffy vs Kaido, but there’s also DF centered fights like Kid & Law vs BM. In fact, the F6, All-Stars, Pero, Marco, Kanjuro, and Apoo fights have gotten almost zero Haki focus.

Now, have the all the combinations been used in the story? No, some matchups are more prevelant than others. But the fact that it’s still possible sure as hell gives Oda much more room to breathe and experiment without having to give characters insane explanations for how they win what should be impossible fights. It worked for pre-timeskip but if it went on any longer that way, it would’ve eventually crossed that line.

Armament vs Conqueror’s

Armament doesn’t augment your attacks, it makes them harder. You harden yourself or a weapon but it doesn’t change the offensive output of the attack. You are responsible for making it impactful.

Advanced Conqueror’s intensifies your attack, it’s the power boost. Infusing your spirit into an attack and making it stronger. It boosted the strength of Shanks’ and Whitebeard’s sword attacks, as it did with Kaido’s Bagua and Luffy’s punch, causing them to be so strong they split the sky.

Negatives

The only gripe I have with Haki doesn’t even come from the series itself and just how some fans (powerscalers in particular) have received it and turned into the end all be all that it very clearly hasn’t been. “X character has future sight and Y character doesn’t so they lose” despite the Katakuri fight explicitly debunking that. “Character 1 has stronger armament so they win” despite the Vergo fight showing us otherwise.

The series has not really shown us Haki users completely crushing their opponents except in Kaido’s case. And even then it’s still a mix of the durability and endurance he gets from his Devil Fruit on top of his Haki. His defense is where a lot of his reputation for his strength comes from, in my opinion. The focus for Luffy to learn advanced armament was so he can get through his defenses. It’s why Zoro cutting Kaido’s scales is so impressive. Because everyone who knows Kaido knows his defenses are so strong that without Haki, only a select DF abilities could get past it. And we still have yet to see how Luffy will handle characters with extremely high offensive powers.

Speculation for how things may play out later regarding (mostly adv conqueror’s) Haki and being skeptical of it is completely fair. But to say it has an overall negative impact on the story isn’t.

All in all, Haki’s been handled very well and I’d even say it saved One Piece from becoming a train wreck and played a big role in it’s continued longevity.

Edit: changed usage of the word ‘stronger’ when differentiating between CoC and CoA to avoid confusion between it and ‘harder’

[terse vector]

@young geyser

[devout galleon]

Oh yeah whoops

[terse vector]

Also damn that's a looooot. Gonna read that in the morning

[terse vector]

Yeah pinging him as he is pinning the arguments

[devout galleon]

I tried to stay on track. Though I am looking forward to responses

[distant kettle]

I like it

[hexed bane]

Hell even in the recent chapter it’s not a “haki bloom” that’s likely saving Zoro and keeping him in the fight but an unexpected phenomenon from Odens sword. Haki although it was a focus more in WCI/Wano, that’s just because it’s being mastered here, but overall a lot goes into battle outcome determination

[devout galleon]

Yeah definitely. Oden’s spirit in Enma is most likely Haki. So it’s still present in the fight and used differently.

[signal helm]

Rokaya once I figure out how to add yours to the thread I will

Good post

[devout galleon]

Thank you Balkan

[fast kite]

Without observation, I’d have to settle for either “blind man is very experienced and can sense things with no real explanation”
Okay my gripe here is that, that's kinda really all observation haki is, except it's given a formal name instead of just "I'm experienced". We saw how Rayleigh trained Luffy's observation haki and it was literally just depriving him of his senses until he developed it. So effectively just having strong enough senses is enough to have it, but also you can just have it randomly with no real effort either.
Armament doesn’t make your attacks stronger
This is also kinda blatantly false 'cause old malnutritioned hyo who could barely move boulders was 1 shotting gifters basically purely with this haki ability.

Haki in the grand scheme of things keeps fights interesting to me. In pre-timeskip, match-ups have all been a combination of DF and non-DF users fighting. This generally gave us three types of fights (DF v DF, DF v non-DF, and non v non-DF).

Now with the addition of Haki, we get 10 possible fight match-ups with the combination of DF-only, Haki-only, DF+Haki, and non-DF+Haki users.
I don't really see how this makes things more refreshing. All you're doing is listing what kind of "matchups" are possible, but what is haki adding to make it more refreshing? I think in some cases it has, but I would definitely not put it as a catch-all like this. In most cases it's kinda negligible at best, and actively makes things boring at worst (where it just turns into punch harder).

[timber granite]

This is also kinda blatantly false 'cause old malnutritioned hyo who could barely move boulders was 1 shotting gifters basically purely with this haki ability.

To add on to this, haki does make attacks stronger. Even back in FMI luffy was leagues stronger than he was previously just because of haki

[devout galleon]

My point about armament is that all it’s doing is covering you in invisible armor. Haki punches are as strong as you make them. You still have to put power behind them. It’s making your attack harder, not stronger. The attack strength comes from the user. It’s like giving someone a suit of armor and telling them to punch something. If the punch is weak then armor isn’t gonna carry and make it stronger for them.

[devout galleon]

I guess I didn’t drive the refreshing point as much as I would’ve liked. Haki is refreshing because of the abilities it offers. Armament, observation, and Conqueror’s being able to casually be used in the story on top of many fighting abilities is refreshing to me. When I think of a Haki user I don’t think of a “punch harder” style of fighting, I see it being used with both Devil fruits and other fighting styles in the story.

Also, the Haki punch harder thing has honestly only really been applicable to Luffy. And it’s just how Luffy’s always fought, I’m not sure what to say. Even against crocodile, he still tried to find a way to “punch harder.”

[young geyser]

I mean for doflamingo, it's essentially make strings hit harder, katakuri used it for punch harder, zoro uses it for protection of his swords but also slash harder

[desert wyvern]

All of armament until Wano was just "punch harder", it was literally called hardening for the most available use

Even now, it's just punch harder with a bubble

[devout galleon]

But it’s used with Devil fruits, swordsmanship, and martial arts. With the exception of Garp, no one is a strictly use Haki on my fist to punch hard fighter

Maybe Rayleigh too?

[fast kite]

it is used with them, but how is it making it more refreshing? It's just a tool to make things stronger largely. Like I said, there are some exceptions, like Kata using observation with his fruit to spot dodge essentially, but that's more an exception than a rule. Largely it's just "make fist/sword/club stronger"

[devout galleon]

In the case of armament is just is make things harder. That’s literally it. It being able to make those abilities stronger and not fade into irrelevancy because well how are you gonna explain why characters can do certain things without breaking their body/weapons.

[fast kite]

does it need to be explained? It just happens. I don't really think haki has been explained well enough to say it does that either. It just does that.

and armament is really the main one. Like me and rob have pointed out, observation rarely plays a role unless there's a significant difference between the skill in using it, and conqueror's until recently didn't do anything significant for combat of relatively equal opponents, and recently, it's just played the role of bigger armament.

[devout galleon]

But it’s not bigger armament. Two advanced conqueror’s attacks has a different result from two armament attacks. Just because it uses a similar technique to use doesn’t really mean it’s does the same thing.

[young geyser]

Yeah one is punch harder and one is punch even harder

[devout galleon]

[young geyser]

That is what it amounts to. Does it look hype that these characters are hitting each other without touching? Yes. Is it a glorified way to showing punching harder? Also yes.

[devout galleon]

Well as for observation, if we’re talking specifically within fights, i’d say it’s also been used for sensing strength, location, and even emotions of the opponents. It’s use is a lot more subtle than armament but not useless.

[devout galleon]

I really think that’s not how the story is presenting them though. Armament is punch harder. Conqueror’s is punch stronger.

[devout galleon]

Come on, I explained the difference earlier

Okay armament is harder punch and conqueror’s is augmented punch

[edgy pagoda]

haki is an extreme net positive because it’s a natural balancer. my only issue with it is that i wish it was introduced a lot sooner even if the main crew didn’t know how to use it. even when i first started reading the story i was wondering how the heck anyone without a logia fruit would be able to do anything in the story they were seemingly untouchable or unbeatable. All 3 versions of haki are greatly structed and give even the most garbo fruit potential if one works hard enough. even if someone doesn’t get a fruit they can still train their haki to the extreme and be a world power (ala potentially shanks or mihawk) either way without haki the story would be much much different and in my opinion a lot worse too

[desert wyvern]

LAST CALL FOR ARGUMENTS. DEBATE ARENA WILL BE CLOSING IN 6 HOURS.

[terse vector]

it would have been good if it really was willpower in tangible strength. Just had this conv with choc the day before, Haki running out doesn't make sense if it was willpower

looks like everything else about that was discussed already 💀

[desert wyvern]

Looks like we've got plenty of entries, so I'll go ahead and drop this here.

https://strawpoll.com/ghxdds871

PLEASE BE SURE TO VOTE

[desert wyvern]

END OF THE HAKI DEBATE

This channel will be read-only until the next debate. The results and arguments are in the 📌 pinned messages if you'd like to take another read-through.

Thanks for participating, guys. Great arguments again, really happy with the engagement.

We'll be holding a stage event Sunday at 8pm EST, join us as we go over the results of the debate and present some points live.

See you there!

[clear zenith]

[shy ocean]

oden mid

[wanton flower]

yay

[desert wyvern]

ARGUMENT

Kozuki Oden was undoubtedly one of, if not entirely, the most powerful samurai to come out of Wano in recent history. He traveled with Gol D. Roger, Edward Newgate, became a commander, and took over the most violent, lawless territory in all of Wano through his own great strength. He was dedicated to both protecting those close to him and preventing the fall of Wano to the hands of Orochi and Kaido. Given his personality and history, and the results of his actions, did he make the correct choice in believing Orochi when he stated no one would be harmed if he danced for 5 years in the country, or did he make the wrong choice in how he handled the situation? Why or why not, please use examples from the series if applicable in your argument.

RIGHT CHOICE

The Godfather:
#debate-arena message

THE ROOM:
#debate-arena message

emood:
#debate-arena message

WRONG CHOICE

Kanirante:
#debate-arena message

Mohdoo:
#debate-arena message

Fortsy:
#debate-arena message

Pink Hair-chan:
#debate-arena message

RESULTS:
https://strawpoll.com/zx9g6uda2

[minor void]

Hmm, I'll have to reread, but my initial take is that Oden made the best choice possible.

[unkempt valve]

what exactly are we debating?

[desert wyvern]

Read

[unkempt valve]

this feels like something id do in like 4th grade

"why or why not" "please use evidence from the text to support your answer"

[spring lotus]

whats up boys

[desert wyvern]

You're more than welcome to not participate, but this channel isn't for the casual conversation

[rare lantern]

Ooooh new topic

[pastel dirge]

Oden tried his best to not start a war

[unkempt valve]

i feel like he made the right choice

[minor void]

Hyogoro was taken hostage right? He didn't really have a choice there, correct?

[pastel dirge]

So based on the pressure he did the right choice

[unkempt valve]

if he didnt it wouldve started in more conflict than there already was, especially when u see whats going down right now on wano in the manga.

[desert wyvern]

Hyogoro was not, no

[spring lotus]

Can you like maybe underline the main question. Maybe its just me but the entire text being fat throws me off

[pastel dirge]

Hyogoro was taken hostage years after oden accepted

[spring lotus]

I got it now but at first I was kinda thrown off

[desert wyvern]

Better?

[spring lotus]

thanks

[thin marlin]

oh this is my kinda topic, helps that i'm already writing an analysis of the oden flashback

[spring lotus]

Time to reread the second half of Oden flashback

[minor void]

Bean, what's your take on it?

[desert wyvern]

At work right now, I'll go into it later. A reread is probably a good idea for this one though, yeah

[chrome monolith]

did oden know that orochi worked with kaido at that time

[thin marlin]

yeah he came to know orochi worked with kaido when the scabbards told him at kuri when he returned to wano

[unkempt valve]

wasnt the oden flash back animated? did the anime add more details? im not an anime watcher, so idk.

like how that one shadowy figure in the manga was yamato, but it was made more obvious in the anime or whatever

[rare lantern]

Yeah they animated it but the anime isn't canon

Just reread the flashback in the manga

[thin marlin]

anyways, not the point of this channel, better off reading the flashback as vic mentioned

[still moss]

I think he did the best he could given the situation

However, it would have turned out better if the people captured actually knew that it was Oden who saved them

[hollow wing]

Idk if I’ll write a full length post but the general idea is that Oden was naive and clouded by the love of his people in the short term, which lead to more pain and suffering for them overall long term

It’s the classic idea of a hero having to decide whether to sacrifice the few (his samurai and those who would fight to stop Orochi and Kaido) to save the many lives that would be affected in the future

Normally, a happy ending is one in which the hero defies all odds and saves everyone, but that’s not the case with Oden

His decision led to overall failure, and his legacy and will had to be inherited by others, namely the SH’s and Scabbards

[pallid thicket]

Imo I think it was pretty dumb to dance for five years on an obviously empty promise. Why not just sneak in at night and save them?

[olive grail]

I think he made the wrong choice.
Not even Orochi and Kaido but his stubbornness and pride helped his fall.
Wanting to hide the truth from his trusty Scabbards and allies. Even his own wife didn't know the deal he agreed to take. Oden decided he was enough to shoulder the threat by himself. I cannot get behind his decision no matter how hard I try.
He sailed with the best pirates of its era. He saw the atrocities the WG and other pirates are capable of. "Among pirates. Fights are all about who lives and who dies. There is no fair or unfair". Words first spoken by Crocodile, yet we've seen how true it is for this world.
He made no back-up plan, no attempts to establish or even try to seek allies in Wano. He just believed it. Not even checking on the progress of building promised shipes? His naïveté is too much to take.
Yes, he died a prideful death, yet stripped all the rest of samurai of this privilege.

Edit: If he had the objective to save Wano for the future generations (possibly JoyBoy) as Doom's said, then I have no problem with how Oden dealt with the situation. He obviously had other priorities in mind, seeing now beyond his country. He saw the world and if Wano had to play key role in changing it, I see how he might've put slim chance trusting Kaido above risky potential win.

[acoustic escarp]

Oden probably did it cause of whatever he found out when journeying with Roger thats really it

[vapid kite]

oden was stupid about that he unironically believed Orochi, still a based character tho

[willow field]

In that point he had nothing to do other than beliving orochi

With so many hostages orochi had

[vapid kite]

yeah true

[olive grail]

He underestimated how messed up Kaido n Orochi are

[hollow wing]

Oden needed to make a hard call

It’s a pirates world

[olive grail]

But Orochi said to his face he wants to destroy Wano. What else did he need to realize how uncompromising the situation was

[hollow wing]

Dancing for 5 years doesn’t solve it

On a promise that 90% won’t work out

You lose the people’s confidence/morale too

[visual flame]

Is the debate arguing whether it was good/bad that Oden believed Orochi from a writing perspective or from the character's perspective?

[hollow wing]

The best play was to find an opportunity to take down Kaido and Orochi as soon as possible, even with possible consequences

[quartz mauve]

I believe oden failed to overlook the long lasting effects of what would happen if he let orochi run wild

[thin marlin]

from your perspective fortsy

[hollow wing]

The debate is was his decision correct or not

[visual flame]

[hollow wing]

The basic premise anyway

[fervent veldt]

It's about minimizing damage to the country

[willow field]

It was not actualy but no other choice

[fervent veldt]

WB had the same logic

[thin marlin]

there's a lot i wanna write for this so i'm gonna leave here for now

[quartz mauve]

Instead of minimizing it he made it worse

[fervent veldt]

did he?

[quartz mauve]

Current wano is down the gutter so yes

[fervent veldt]

Remember the lush forests of udon?

[willow field]

Wano was left with 0 victims exept kuzuki followers , no?

[fervent veldt]

that's a few hours of fighting with kaido

even if they won

[quartz mauve]

I’m talking long term effects

[fervent veldt]

it was at the risk of razing wano

[quartz mauve]

Yeah no one died during those 5 years but the fact is it got worse once oden was executed

[bronze urchin]

I see where you’re speaking from because of how kaido wants to destroy the flower capital and making factories and making the people suffer

[fervent veldt]

but if they fought

same would have happened

as said

wano would have been left in shambles

worse

[quartz mauve]

They would’ve suffered losses of course, it’s war. But current wano? Unless you live in the capital your life is shit

[fervent veldt]

just 1-2 years later, moria would have invaded

it's shit, but it's still saveable

they called it a long sleep

the country still has its people and it is not barre

that's the idea

[clear zenith]

What’s the use if your people are all suffering

[olive grail]

feck, wrong message

[quartz mauve]

The mind of the samurai would’ve chosen death in battle

to them, enslavement is worse than death

[olive grail]

if the choice was given to citizens of Wano. Would they rather die in a battle or starve to death/from exhaustion in enemies works, what would they've chosen how do you think?

[bronze urchin]

Because of that I think oden would of never chosen the 5 years

[olive grail]

Had to make it right, sorry. I agree with u

[fervent veldt]

it's a long term choice

and not "honorable death"

[olive grail]

Oden would know that. After all, he lived among thir mentality all his life.

[fervent veldt]

especially since Oden realized that Wano NEEDS to exist in the future

for whatever reason that might be

the country is needed

[olive grail]

Wano or specifically the land Wano occupies?

[fervent veldt]

I think it's the land and it's people

as an ally

just

there was no point in a bloody gamble with the risk of total annihilation

in the end... Oden never really had a chance

[bronze urchin]

Yeah

[fervent veldt]

in the present at least

[quartz mauve]

Why would you reach the conclusion of total annihilation

Oden has all the daimyo in his side as well as the nation’s samurai

[fervent veldt]

right now he's basically rising back from the grave

[olive grail]

Naive Oden would rather take a one in a million chance Kaido keeps his promise then believe in his fellow citizens

Crap my internet got fucked

[clear zenith]

Could have prevented the whole ebisu town situation

[bronze urchin]

I really think if oden got help he would of protected wano

[olive grail]

He was not gonna rely on his fellow samurai in this? Measuring his chances, own strength, Scabbards,+ the rest of Wano he decided it was not enough in his eyes to defeat Orochi/Kaido alliance.

[clear zenith]

He was friends with both Rayleigh and Wb he could have easily protected wano

If he asked them for help

[fervent veldt]

because that's what Orochi made clear

if they take him down

[olive grail]

No one could get out of the country that's the point

[fervent veldt]

he'll drag wano to hell with him

shinobu says it

even if he lost

he'd maximize damage to wano

[olive grail]

But even before then. He directly refused the help Roger pirates offered. He thought it was his business

[fervent veldt]

that makes sense too

[olive grail]

The ego of that man

[bronze urchin]

Yeah

[fervent veldt]

Oden knew Wano needed to solve it's problems by themselves

[bronze urchin]

He should of just accepted some help because he would still seem like the main hero of the story

[fervent veldt]

didn't account for Orochi getting Kaido

[clear zenith]

I think it was more of a pride thing

[fervent veldt]

naw

Oden discarded that pretty soon

you have to see things from Oden's perspective

also

not based in the idea that he knew that he could win

because taking a chance with a horrible outome possible is not that appealing

[olive grail]

The fact he was weirdly optimistic in one case and so unsure in the other.

[fervent veldt]

even during Onigashima, people willingly signed up for this fight and wanted to keep the battle away from the people

[olive grail]

It was about making hard choices. He decided all could be resolved by none other but himself

[clear zenith]

He should have atleast talked to the damiyos and tell them about it

[fervent veldt]

they knew

[visual flame]

His decision was unwise. However, from Oden's perspective, for the longetivity of its people, the sake of the populations' happiness and freedom, he was willing to sacrifice his own if it meant others could live in peace. It wasn't the best decision he could have made, especially since it played a part in his own downfall since it allowed Kaido to muster up enough troops to genuinely stand a chance against Oden, but it's consistent with his character in the story. Oden was a man who burdened everything on his shoulders, emphasized in a literal sense during the boiling scene; A man who took in all of the pain and hardaches upon himself, neglecting to even tell his own subordinates of the situation when confronted with it. It's important to distinguish this because it demonstrates his flaws and why he chose to make this decision in the first place. He self-sacrificed his own well-being for the sake of other people around him. It was only when that trust was found to be misplaced that he resorted to violence.

Did he make the right choice? Most likely, no. His trust was obviously in the hands of someone looking to steal everything from him, but he had no little choice. He had other options, but took it upon himself because it's what Oden does. It's one flaw he has as a leader that differentiates him from Luffy, who extensively relies on his crew and burdens them constantly, but always delivers when it counts. Oden did not want to burden his retainers with even just knowledge of his reasoning and they paid a heavy price for it.

There are better ways it could have been handled in hindsight, though I believe from a character perspective, consistency in Oden's character was a net-positive here It's not exactly the argument if we're talking about the pedantics of, "who would've attacked if X was defeated" or other hypotheticals, I just wanted to analyze a little bit of Oden since I was bored.

[clear zenith]

Wait really

[fervent veldt]

everybody knew about orochi and kaido

[olive grail]

They didn't know about the deal

[fervent veldt]

Kaido did say

Oden had a chance

not that he would have won

a chance

[olive grail]

Shinobu and Oden were the only ones who knew on this side

[clear zenith]

If the damiyos knew about the deal they would have gone after kaido and orochi

[willow hare]

I feel like after what fortsy wrote, I don't need to do anything. Beautifully encompassed my feelings there.

[visual flame]

❤️

[willow hare]

The fact that it wasn't the best thing Oden could have done, yet still did because of the charm of his character is what makes the scene a tragedy.

[visual flame]

Oda knew what he was doing when he wrote Oden to be the type of impulsively self-sacrificing beast of a chad he was

[olive grail]

He got out easy. With a cherished memory and as a hero. Others wouldn't have such choice, because it was made for them by Oden.

[clear zenith]

Unfortunately being a chad means you lose some iq points

[olive grail]

Law would like to disagree

[clear zenith]

Law an exception

[fervent veldt]

the best thing wasn't taking a chance

a war of potential annihilation

vs 20 years of enslavement

one you can come back from

and as said wano is needed for something

[olive grail]

If it wasn't for whatever he learned at the Laugh Tale, would he have made a different decision?

[fervent veldt]

yes

[olive grail]

If so, then he sacrificed Wano's population for the future.

[fervent veldt]

well not sacificed

[olive grail]

choose not them

[fervent veldt]

But yeah, it made him realize that he needed to be shogun too

We'll eventually learn

[visual flame]

The issue with this question is that, while there are obvious answers, it has a lot of nuance regarding blots of history Oden knows about, that pertain to important events that can completely alter the 'why' on his decision depending on what they are, but even with all of that added knowledge about Wano itself, it still feels to me that he would have accepted it either way

[willow hare]

It's how to write a good tragedy. We've seen this before. Chopper using the deadly mushroom because the skull was in the book, and chopper not understanding that the skull indicates deadliness because of what hiriluk claims and tells Chopper about pirates and jolly rogers. It's very comparable because they're both tragedies brought about by a characters endeering ignorance towards a very complicated matter. But nobody is scrutinising Chopper in the sense that they're scrutinising Oden

[graceful latch]

I think Oden made the wrong decision. I just reread what all happened, I can barely even play the devils advocate on this, but I found two reasons to justify why he did that. 1. They threatened his family. 2. They were killing people in the capital. It says they started shooting poisoned arrows in the crowd and then Kaido appeared in dragon form. I think that Oden wanted to pacify the situation as quick as possible. However, if they were to have battled right then, I think that Oden could have taken on Kaido or at least damaged him enough prior to Kaido getting invested into building Wano that he’d leave.

[visual flame]

That's unfortunately due to the scale on which Oden had a platform to make his decisions. Chopper did not affect anyone but himself and Hirilurk, whereas Oden was responsible for an entire country, which as we know he didn't want to rule over initially. He just wanted to explore the world and see what it held out there. It's really interesting to me that Oden stood up to the task of running as the Shogun of Wano after exploring the world, because it definitely implies something was important enough to Oden that he realized he needed to rule Wano and wait for that day to come.

[narrow wolf]

Kaido did say that he might have lost if Oden tried to attack him before the 5 years of dancing, but from Odens point of view Kaido and orochi were despicable people who might not even try to fight him, like when they hid behind the barrier fruit in the capital. They could just retreat or attack the innocent people of wano and oden’s family. Sure, they ended up doing that anyways, but from odens perspective, his decision was the only way to prevent Wano’s sufferring

[visual flame]

and yeah, Oda can use this system as much as he wants, got me real good

[fervent veldt]

oden went out of his way tomcheck if people got hurt

I think it's a good tragedy because there will forever be the question "was this the right decision at the time?"

and a lot of it comes from one line from Kaido

[visual flame]

And ultimately, I don't think it can be summarized as "yes" or "no" so easily, without exploring both sides of the argument

[fervent veldt]

yeah

[thin marlin]

This is what I'm writing an analysis of the Oden flashback on, how Oda twisted and used the tropes of tragedy

[dawn ivy]

Whoops. Opened the wearing channel

*wrong

[visual flame]

Oden's flashback was regardless of what opinion you hold Oden to regarding his decision

[thin marlin]

But my analysis is about 3100 words at this point and this will answer this entire thing so I'm just gonna lay off lol

[visual flame]

go for it

[thin marlin]

I'm not posting it here

[clever sleet]

Can y'all pin what the debate is about?

[willow hare]

Harsh, will you ever post it here when you finish? I'd love to give it a read once its done.

[fervent veldt]

atm oden's decisions

[visual flame]

just scroll a bit, it's not too high up

[willow hare]

Kunta you can go to #events as well

[thin marlin]

I'll try posting in #also-manga, already mentioned to people that I will so let's see

[fervent veldt]

but it ahould be pinned too

just to make sure

[clever sleet]

Yeah, just found it

Interesting topic. I'll think about it a bit

[fervent veldt]

ARGUMENT:

Kozuki Oden was undoubtedly one of if not the most powerful samurai to come out of Wano in recent history. He traveled with Gol D. Roger, Edward Newgate, and took over the most violent, lawless territory in all of Wano through his own sheer strength. He was dedicated to both protecting those close to him and preventing the fall of Wano to the hands of Orochi and Kaido. Given his personality and history, and the results of his actions, did he make the correct choice in believing Orochi when he stated no one would be harmed if he danced for 5 years in the country, or did he make the wrong choice in how he handled the situation? Why or why not, please use examples from the series if applicable in your argument.

[fervent veldt]

so

now we have that too

[graceful venture]

I think he made the right decision in that moment but wrong in long term. His decision saved people, but long term it caused wano to be a miserable place to live for its citizens and tons of people still died due to the majority of the country being basically a barren wasteland except the capital. If Oden fought Kaido off the bat yes people would've died but wano would've been saved and in the long run I think that would've been better.

[fervent veldt]

Would it have been saved?

Because it was a chance to win

[graceful venture]

If Oden won then yea

[fervent veldt]

and they got invaded by moria 1-2 years later

the moria said to go toe to toe with kaido back then

[graceful venture]

Well when moria invaded wano would've still had its original daimyo and probably oden so moria wouldve been beat

if oden was powerful enough to beat kaido then he should be powerful enough to beat moria even in his prime

and all the scabbards as well

assuming nobody dies

[solid grail]

I doubt Oden would win in that moment if he'd deny the offer

[sturdy hornet]

All those lives he could’ve saved would be on his conscience until the end of his life even if he took that route and succeeded

[solid grail]

Boy couldn't even destroy the barrier barrier fruit, and then kaido from the back would be too much for him to handle

[graceful venture]

Well if he could see the state of wano now he'd still have lives on his conscience anyways. People die either way

[olive grail]

If he had the objective to save Wano for the future generations (possibly JoyBoy) as Doom's said, then I have no problem with how Oden dealt with the situation. He obviously had other priorities in mind, seeing now beyond his country. He saw the world and if Wano had to play key role in changing it, I see how he might've put slim chance trusting Kaido above risky potential win.

[lean whale]

couldn't he just ask roger pirates remnants for help, what good will pride do you

[graceful venture]

facts.

[sturdy hornet]

But he’s dead right now, in that moment there were hostages that could be saved by him in the moment if he obeyed

[fervent veldt]

that is the thing: Orochi would have done all he could to hurt the country.

[graceful venture]

yea for sure im just saying people die either way so it rlly doesnt matter long term

[olive grail]

No den den mushi, crew disbanded and went into hiding. How he would've contacted them?

[fervent veldt]

not like winning would have meant winning big time with a lotnof survivors

[sturdy hornet]

This is akainu sense of justice

[hushed night]

I going to be arguing for Oden.

I think he made the right decision given the circumstances but at the same although the decision was correct, he should have still consulted with his counsel (Scabbards). Oden recognised the might of Kaido and the beast Pirates. He very much knew that there is no way he can take them head on and the loss would be monumental had he lost. Taking all this into account, he came to the right conclusion to do what Orochi asked him to do. We also need to take into account that he had two little kids and a wife to think of before making any decisions. He must have already sensed it if he tries to force a battle and loses then his family will very well be slaughtered and made example of which is what happened but we know that in hindsight. Any chance of saving his family and people closed to him and people of his country must have looked very enticing to him.

He traveled with two great pirates and Kaido and his crew rivals them so he all familiar with strength of his enemy.

[fervent veldt]

man imagine the horrors queen alone could have unleashed

[lean whale]

half the rogers pirates remnants would have been enough to level up kaido's crew at that time

[sturdy hornet]

Even whitebeard pirate was sad about what happened to wano

[olive grail]

we saw Udon already

[graceful venture]

The way i see it is once kaido is beaten then what exactly can orochi do? He's not powerful on his own

[sturdy hornet]

But how could they know if the country is closed off? Oden was carrying the weight all alone

[fervent veldt]

even before

start killing civillians

use his ninjas

weapons

[olive grail]

U mean Marco? 💀

[fervent veldt]

etc

[sturdy hornet]

💀 I didn’t remember which one said it

[fervent veldt]

basically what he is doing now

blowing up the capital wasn't that unlikely either

[lean whale]

I don't think there was anyone smart enough amongst scabbards who could have made a better decision ( they were too young for all that + inexperienced + naive )

[olive grail]

Not many to pick out from, it's either Marco, Ace or Izo

[hushed night]

I think his wife was pretty smart or at least it looks like it

[graceful venture]

yea you've got a point but people die anyways due to the lack of resources around the country and it's been going on for 20 years at least oden would be able to free the country then instead of possibly more people dying in the future

[olive grail]

Kinemon was 36 💀

[lean whale]

To be honest, how Oden chose his son over whole country is unbecoming of a leader who is supposed to save a country

[lean whale]

We all saw his intelligence level, couldn't even decode a simple message + had no idea about kanjuro s schemes

[hushed night]

This is one of those things only a father would understand

[lean whale]

But i thought a King is supposed to be a father figure for whole country

[olive grail]

Ok. Denjiro was 27 💀

[lean whale]

I understand father son thing but, sometimes you need to think over that

[hushed night]

A very ideal king sure but nothing is ideal in this world

[olive grail]

He sure presented as ideal by the Scabbards.

[lean whale]

seeing garp letting ace die in marineford

[hushed night]

Legends are always presented as ideals.

[olive grail]

People you once knew too?

[lean whale]

thats what you all naive

[hushed night]

See if He had to sacrifice his son to save the country, Oden might have, here he had the chance to save both

[hushed night]

None of the people I know are legends

[lean whale]

Seeing luffy zoro turn into a total badass moster in just 3years of training, wasting 5years dancing naked seems kinda waste of time to me

surely he wasn't the strongest swordsman at that point, surely there was room for some improvement

[hushed night]

I wanted to include this point but thought it would be counter to my point

Ideally Oden should have fled wano with scabbards

[olive grail]

U know me now

[hushed night]

Trained and should have contacted his old friends but pride and abandoning his people is something he just couldn't do

You know cause Ideal king

[lean whale]

What could have been tge reason not to flee? to assure wano citizens that there is still hope? not quite when he is portraying himself as a mad man who lost all his senses

[graceful venture]

its just how oden is

he always tries to solve things himself

[lean whale]

Yeah, its just how he was

[late sequoia]

That was his flaw

[lean whale]

you can't blame someone for being dumbminded. People are born different, not everyone is smart

[hushed night]

Oden wanted to sacrifice himself for his people. His people were still under his watchful eye.
Abandoning would have meant leaving them on their own

[olive grail]

He did that after his death

[lean whale]

underwatchful eye, when he couldn't have done anything which could have made any difference at that point anyway, kinda seems waste of time

[hushed night]

But we don't know that.

Had he seen atrocities, now correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall orochi terribly torturing people in that 5 year time period

[lean whale]

He overestimated himself. Letting your anger guide your actions is unbecoming of a samurai who is supposed to take care of a country. Letting a man rule a country based solely on strength is playing dumb

[hushed night]

Had he seem the atrocities, he would have moved to helped them

[hushed night]

Who overestimated himself???

[lean whale]

its not like, he had to do it in front of everyone. surely Orochi was no nice man during those 5years

[lean whale]

who else

[hushed night]

Sure he was not nice but at the very least he must have not done those things so openly

[hushed night]

How did he overestimate himself??

That doesn't make any sense to me

[lean whale]

He surely did, seeing him now. I have no reason to believe he didn't do anything wrong back then

[hushed night]

Wait, I'm not understanding you

Wait , what are you trying to say??

[lean whale]

He thought he could take on kaido n gang all by himself

[hollow wing]

I’m confused as to the point being made here

[hushed night]

Me too

I making the point that he made the right decision

[lean whale]

You brought up that Orochi didn't do bad things during the 5year timeframe which was irrelevant

The only point there is that, Oden wasted 5 precious years dancing naked like a mad man, when he had no great plan to go with. When he could have utilized that time training, looking for remaining roger pirates, getting someone smarter to plan a well strategised attack

How can you call it the right decision when it ended terribly for him and everyone else

I don't see what good it did

[hushed night]

The plan was that Orochi and Kaido would leave wano

What happened after the 5 years is irrelevant

[lean whale]

Why would they do that

[hushed night]

Because they gave him their word

[lean whale]

thats idiotic

This reminds me of Arlong Nami situation

[hushed night]

They offered to leave after 5 years which would have spared everyone's lives

[hushed night]

Sure but Oden didn't knoe that

[lean whale]

nor did nami

[hushed night]

That's exactly the situation

[hushed night]

And she fell into the same trap

[lean whale]

but everyone other than nami n oden knew

[hushed night]

Wdym everyone knew??

[lean whale]

Why would you trust any word of a man who literally took over your goddamn country n is continuously destroying it everyday

We are comparing nami s intelligence at the age of 10 and oden s intelligence at whatever his age was

[hushed night]

I have to reread but I don't recall all the details at the moment. Only thing I remember is that he told him that they were building a ship.

Did Orochi give any other reason?m?

[lean whale]

funny how a 10year old girl gets fooled in the same way the shogun of a country got fooled

[hushed night]

That's the reason I said he should have consulted with his counsel

[lean whale]

Listen mate, just accept n switch sides

[hushed night]

Important thing to remember is that the prospect of war was too great

He could not have possibly beaten Kaido at that moment

[lean whale]

Wano country people is on whole another level, worse than Alabasta. Attacking Kaido in 3 waves instead of putting it all in one go

[hollow wing]

He could’ve

You can’t deny the possibility

Obviously it’s not certain if Oden would’ve won if he fought Kaido and Orochi at an earlier date

[lean whale]

he could have never defeated kaido, maybe if he had used thise 5years training maybe then he would have stood a chance

[hollow wing]

But trying then was better than trying later

[hushed night]

The thing is he didn't know Orochi is lying

[hollow wing]

Why would he trust Orochi

Why

That’s the problem

[hushed night]

Of course had he known he would gone for all out war then and there

[hollow wing]

Oden trusted an evil usurper to keep his word, with his country in the balance

He’s naive and a moron

[lean whale]

Omg, dont go over it again. I literally talked about that mins ago

[hushed night]

You are given a choice between saving your people or losing half the country regardless of the outcome??, what would you do

[merry thicket]

I thought it was implied to be the opposite. Kaido needed the 5 years to match Oden

[hollow wing]

Both choices are a chance

The chance that Orochi is telling the truth and the chance that you win the fight

[lean whale]

I would chose giving up on my pride the right way, instead of dancing naked i would go ask others for help for my cause

[hollow wing]

As a Samurai and ruler, he should’ve chose to fight

Or at least prep for one ASAP

[hushed night]

Knowing his people would die regardless of the outcome. I don't think an ideal king would do that

Smart king sure, idealist NO

[lean whale]

Only thing he had to do was Ask Rayleigh and he would have wiped the floor with kaido n wano people would have lived a happy life

[hollow wing]

Oden needed to drop idealism

And realize it’s a hard world

With hard choices

Look where his idealism got us

His will had to be carried on by others because he failed

[hushed night]

Yeah but it's a hard thing to do

[hollow wing]

And his people suffered for it for 20 years

[lean whale]

realising he was neither the smartest not the nor strongest would have helped too

[hollow wing]

That too

[olive grail]

Actually even more if u count years he's been away sailing with pirates

[hushed night]

We should also consider what would have happened to the people of wano while Oden was away amassing an army to take on Kaido

[hollow wing]

Not much different than Oden dancing 5 years

[hushed night]

If I can think that, Oden would also have thought that

[hollow wing]

Oden stayed out of pride

[hushed night]

People would have been exploited severely as they were after the death of Oden

[hollow wing]

As a king

[hollow wing]

It was gonna happen anyway

What Oden did gave them 5 years of prep

[lean whale]

His son momo turned out to be wussy because of all the pampering oden did, which caused alot of problems for luffy later on

[hushed night]

No, it wasn't

Oden believed they would leave

[hollow wing]

Nah Momo is fine

[hollow wing]

That’s his fault

Believing them

That’s my main point

[lean whale]

After seeing luffy's childhood, no one seems fine to me

[hushed night]

I'm not going all this over again why leaving was not plausible for him as their king

[hollow wing]

I’m not gonna argue the specifics of what he should have done in terms of fighting back

[lean whale]

Already went over that, i proved my point pretty well.

[hollow wing]

My only argument is the dancing choice is wrong and he should’ve fought period

[lean whale]

Giving one statement is not proving point

[hollow wing]

However way he wanted to

[lean whale]

Your statements are idiotic and lacks sense my friend, go over them again @hushed night

[hushed night]

Point them out

I'll explain them again

[lean whale]

• Oden didn't know orochi was lying

• Oden wanted to watch over his citizens as he was king

Don't try to explain

[lean whale]

Not even fighting, there were many other options too which could have resulted in a better future

[hushed night]

How can you fail to see the magnitude of loss thay Oden and his country would have suffered had he fought or ran.

He was given a choice to save all, I repeat all this people and he made the decision

[lean whale]

fighting alone like he always does wouldn't have made sense

[hushed night]

People are not understanding the magnitude of the loss at the hand

[lean whale]

we saw that magnitude of loss you talked about in the same version of story when oden made the right choise kf dancing naked according to you. That too not so far in the future, 'the loss' was happening even before he cane back to wano n surely didn't stop while he was dancing

[lean whale]

Only thing people are understanding is how a big grown up man with 2 kids was fooled by a person who ransacked his country in the same way a 10year old girl was fooled

[hushed night]

I need to see the panels if the people were still dying in front of Oden while he was still dancing.

And if we are talking about the future then all I'll say is hindsight is 20/20

[lean whale]

Yes man oda will draw 20 panels of random people being mistreated by orochi s man in odens flashback

Oda will draw a full chapter showing the atrocities which took in wano under orochi s rule

[hushed night]

One would have been enough

[olive grail]

Factories were still working during Oden's exploits

[lean whale]

Can you make some resource full statement, which can be backed by real logic instead of whining about oda not drawing some random shit

[olive grail]

That fact should be enough

[lean whale]

But its not enough for him, he wants to see the cruel acts under orochi rule during odens flashback

he won't take anything less than that

[hushed night]

The important is what Oden saw not what we saw

Running factories and forcing people into poverty and hunger are two different things

[desert wyvern]

In fact, one of the key elements in Oden deciding to dance instead of fight was the fact that he was going around making sure no one was being targeted, killed or harmed during it

[hushed night]

If you can't see any quote and quote real logic we have have come to an stand still

[desert wyvern]

So, there weren't any up until the end, otherwise Oden wouldn't have kept dancing

[hushed night]

Thank you

[olive grail]

Just one guy making rounds over the entire territory of Wano each day

He sure was busy, explains his meaty thighs tho

[hushed night]

Again that's beside the point

If Oden didn't know it, why would it effect his decision making

[lean whale]

@desert wyvern If he was so concerned about his people that he chose to giveaway his pride, why did he shake when kaido brought up fake momo. If he was so determined he should have actee rationally

[rugged path]

Oden probably knew Orochi was lying, but he didn’t want to risk it if it meant protecting his new wife and kids, and protecting the land he calls home.

[olive grail]

He didn't know he couldn't possibly ensure the well being of every person/family in Wano?

[desert wyvern]

This logic doesn't make sense

[hushed night]

That's exactly what he was doing by dancing

[rugged path]

Sometimes when you have people you love, you’d do anything to make sure they’re safe, even if it meant looking like a jackass for 5 years

[olive grail]

we've come a full circle

[lean whale]

it does, a king should think about his people not only his family. He wasn't just the father at that point he was fighting for millions of families

[desert wyvern]

Yeh, that logic isn't a sound argument at all. The shock of a moment of his son being brought up caused him to glance behind himself for a split second, he didn't just abandon the fight completely or give up on the spot

[olive grail]

Oden danced to ensure his people r safe -> He couldn't have possibly known all of them are safe --> He danced to make them safe. And repeat.

[lean whale]

Wasn't Oden only dancing in the capital? not in every region

[desert wyvern]

What you're saying presents an incorrect version of the situation at hand. Being absolutely stunned because his first born was seemingly about to be killed is, across the board, exactly what should happen no matter what. There is no "King" separation here, that's just inhuman.

[rugged path]

@desert wyvern I think Oden made what he believed in the right choice

When he was younger, he was a spiteful smartass who did whatever he wanted. But when he gained his retainers, joined both whitebeard and roger pirates, and met the love of his life and had kids with, it makes someone grow up and think about what you want to do over what needs to be done.

[desert wyvern]

That's also entirely against Oden's personality.

[lean whale]

ok

[lean whale]

@desert wyvern

[hushed night]

And I'd like to add that it would be stupid to think that Oden didn't know what was happening in Wano while he dancing, he still had his retainers

[rugged path]

Think of it as a douchey teenage college boy going on a world tour and coming back home, but he lenders how to be a better man because of his travels and hardships along the way

[lean whale]

How was he looking over everyone in the country from capital

[lean whale]

each retainer was dancing in one region?

The point which was made was, ' Oden deciding to dance instead of fight was the fact that he was going around making sure no one was being targeted '

[hushed night]

No but information moves

[desert wyvern]

He danced in the capital, he just traveled around otherwise

[lean whale]

As far as i remember his retainers didn't know the reason why he was dancing at first atleast

[hushed night]

Thank you agaim

[rugged path]

He prioritized saving his people over slaying his enemy

[hushed night]

That doesn't matter

If people were suffering they would have told Oden

[lean whale]

couldn't have slayed anyone, and failed to save his people anyway

[desert wyvern]

Neither of those hold up

A) It was up in the air whether he could've stopped Kaido at that point

[lean whale]

Not sure, but did Orochi request him to dance or anything. Surely a guy like Orochi wouldn't lower his guard thinking oden lost his sense as he was dancing naked

[desert wyvern]

B) He did in fact save people

[lean whale]

couldn't he have done anything more productive

[olive grail]

Say 5 regions, checking one every week. About a month for each check-up, if counting the distance between different towns/villages it's gonna be more

[lean whale]

The only ones who were fooled by oden dancing were the people surely not orochi

[olive grail]

Mind you this is a map we have 20 years after Kaido took over completely. During Oden's reign there were more towns, subsequently more people

[desert wyvern]

What is there to be fooled of on Orochi's part? Oden dancing was his idea

[olive grail]

Factories were already in place, people already working there. Now how could he possible checked each citizen was safe?

[hushed night]

Why do you guys think there are no other ways for information to reach to oden, why does he have to personally verify them??

[olive grail]

Damn, i gotta go, but my point stands

[olive grail]

Because it was stated there were no ways

[lean whale]

same

[desert wyvern]

By traveling to each region and just seeing what was happening. He did it for 5 years straight, and Wano's not that big of a country, he would've had more than enough information to make his decisions

[lean whale]

If oden had chose to retaliate against orochi s minions in order ti save someone that would have just ended up more people getting hurt

[desert wyvern]

Orochi's "minions" were just other samurai, none of whom would be willing to mess with Oden, and Kaido's crew who apparently weren't actually doing anything for the 5 year period

Which is the only reason Oden kept dancing.

[lean whale]

• Regions were still being taken over + Rivers getting polluted + slave work + factories

during 5years

[desert wyvern]

The factories were tolerated because there was a promise to get them out, no one was being hurt or poisoned in that time yet

Wano hadn't gotten that far into the toxic environment

[lean whale]

you don't know thqt

[desert wyvern]

Oden was under the illusion that for every time he danced, 100 lives would be saved, and he traveled from region to region making sure that was correct

If it weren't, he wouldn't have danced.

[lean whale]

He didn't really save anyone in the end did he

[desert wyvern]

Now, it's entirely possible things were going down in a bad way around the regions and Oden didn't hear about it, but that's not part of the information we're actually presented with

He did, yes. Just not for long.

[hushed night]

Hindsight is 20/20

[desert wyvern]

Hence, he danced.

[lean whale]

Yes

You beleive there was no other better way he could have used thise 5 years @desert wyvern

[desert wyvern]

There are other and arguably better ways he could have, sure.

[lean whale]

Hence proven, it was not the right choice.

[desert wyvern]

Still incorrect, nor is that what I stated.

Acknowledging there was more than one way to handle the situation absolutely does not prove it to have been the incorrect or even worst choice available.

It's just acknowledging the options.

[lean whale]

@desert wyvern Do you think Oden is naive

( It was naive thinking that Kaido will leave after 5years )

[desert wyvern]

That's a fair opinion, however it seems to be rooted entirely in hindsight. Oden didn't know Kaido or his personality, all he knew was Orochi and how Orochi felt hurt.

[lean whale]

thats what makes him naive

[desert wyvern]

Naivete would imply he had some idea of what was to come, or some perspective of the situation that should have lead him to a different choice. He didn't.

[lean whale]

not knowing, still believing. now would you trust your house to some random person you don't even know

[desert wyvern]

You really shouldn't try to lead with questions like this, it's a danger to your argument and doesn't really factor into everyone else's

[desert wyvern]

Like most people in the US are basically required to do? Depends on the situation, sure.

Still a poorly leading question, though.

Having said that, he knew Orochi. Kaido wasn't the factor there, Orochi was. Kaido was just some pirate who may or may not have been just as stranded on the island as Whitebeard was, and legitimately could have left after 5 years

There was no reason to actually doubt that happening, except that hindsight that Kaido wanted something from Wano personally now.

[lean whale]

surely not someone who broke into your house n took hold of it

[desert wyvern]

You're insisting, I'm entirely sure based only on what we know now, that he should've made a different decision or come to a different conclusion. That isn't necessarily the case with the information he had at the time.

Kaido didn't break in, he was invited. This is why I'm telling you these are hurting your argument, your analogies aren't working here

[lean whale]

invited thing would have made sense if oden had invited him

[desert wyvern]

The Shogun invited him.

[lean whale]

Shogun broke into the house himself

[desert wyvern]

As far as everyone knows, that's not what happened, so that still unfortunately doesn't matter

[lean whale]

House was owned by Kozuki

[desert wyvern]

And given up, as far as everyone knows, by the Kozuki

[lean whale]

taken

[desert wyvern]

Trying to stretch this analogy really doesn't work if you're not acknowledging the entire situation happening

[lean whale]

trickery

[desert wyvern]

It was because of his trickery, for sure, but as far as anyone knew it was all legitimate in passing

You're also going to have to present more than one word answers

[lean whale]

yes

[desert wyvern]

That wasn't a suggestion

[lean whale]

that i know, but its bed time

Gn

[desert wyvern]

Please make a greater effort if you continue, thanks

Guys, remember if you've got an argument you want archived, be sure to ping the debate mediator role.

[hushed night]

@desert wyvern

[olive grail]

@desert wyvern

[olive grail]

Bah! Even if we take Japan as a reference and the population of Edo Period of about 30-40 million people. One man for each week isn't gonna cover all of it. Did he promenade factories as well, the Beast Pirates let him inspect the territory they occupied? But we don't know, right? Shinobu said he did. Shinobu immeasurably ideologizes the man. Shinobu sure he did.

[desert wyvern]

It takes a day or two to travel from one region to another on the back of a crocodile, and not much longer by foot. Wano's not that big.

That's with breaks, even.

[olive grail]

I know, I know, much smaller than Australia. That's why I looked up the population during Edo Period. Land might not be that big, but about 30 million people are still living there. What, he made census survey for each month

[vestal cedar]

Oden's greatest mistake was leaving Wano when he learned that it was in trouble. If he had not continued his journey with Roger, Oden could have gathered allies and ended Orochi's rule as well as Kaido's rise to power. He would have never gained the knowledge he did at Laughtale, but Wano wouldn't be oppressed

[frozen solstice]

Well, on the flip side if this does happen Oden wouldn't have went with Roger to laugh tale and learnt what he have learned there and couldn't write it in his logs. He wouldn't directly know about joyboy. And he would be leased compelled to open the borders of wano possibly.

This in the present would make Luffy to priorities heading for wano which could potentially help Luffy with his goal, even Zoro.

Through hiyori and the tengu Zoro learned more about the permanently making your own sword black and acquire emna which was revealed recently it has a connection with his hometown. But it's not also acquiring Emna, there's a possibility Zoro wouldn't get shusui either. Because Moria went to wano to fight and lose to Kaido during oden's dancing. If Oden did retaliate and was able to get Kaido off wano or deal with Moria he probably would not have stole ryuma's corps and shusui.

Another character who would be affected on odens action on would be funny enough Yamato. She wouldn't witness the legendary boiling even if orochi was delt with and would less likely to rebel against her father and wouldn't acquire the logs even her own df. With Kaido out of the picture of wano so soon Ace wouldn't have shown up to fight Kaido either which helped Luffy develop his bond with Tama and Yamato. (This would also affect oars Jr lol)

[clear zenith]

he made a mistake because orochi has power so oden fell for it like theres no way orochi would keep his promise and that gives kaido time to get stronger and recruit more men and in the end he was just embarrassing himself more

[fast kite]

this is pretty much it, but also not even. because he could've proposed an ultimatum for roger. "Help me out here, or you're not getting to Laugh Tale", but he was too prideful, and Toki was too insistent on him not even hearing what was going on. If he had heard what specifically had happened, then asked Roger and his crew to help him out, then problem solved. But pride gets in the way and also the narrative need for a problem, so if the problem is solved, there's no real big narrative on wano

Roger easily could've gone "Oh Kaido? Yeah I've dealt with him before, should be no huge issue"

[rotund temple]

Oden had a great, idealistic, naive belief that Orochi would follow through on his promise.

1. Orochi already conveyed disdain for Wano as a country and he already made a conscious effort to harm the country for selfish purposes

2. Orochi waited until Oden was gone to put his plan into action, showing Oden's presence would hinder his ability to complete his plan

3. Orochi had already assembled a team of loyal companions with great powers and had the backing of Kaido. There was so much infrastructure to Orochi's take over that any promise of "Oh I will abandon my empire" was just flat out dumb. It made no sense. Given Orochi's motivations and his current situation, it was not just naive but crazy to think Orochi would just ditch it.

Less Oden's fault, kind of: Being gone from Wano robbed him of the ability to watch his father lead. He was never given the opportunity to gain the wisdom and experience necessary to be tasked with the lives of his people. He never had to watch his father make tough decisions and make sacrifices for the greater good. He never had to see pragmatism be a necessity. A common idea/theme in history are times when you have 3 options: Terrible, awful and really bad. Oden was childish and inexperienced to think there was a 4th, good option.

Oden sailed with some truly exceptional people and really just was not used to losing or seeing the bad guys win. This happens in lots of industries, including engineering, military and others. When you win for too long, you are prone to losing because you lose touch with the unpredictable nature of the universe. Good runs happen. Sometimes you are really on a 5 star team and you are untouchable. It can ruin a competitor and it has in the past. Plenty of high tier competitors have said their run of dominance was the worst thing to ever happen to their long term performance.

Oden may have been dealing with the guilt associated with abandoning his country and wanted to strive for a reality where no one suffered from his selfishness. His bold, ambitious courage served him well but it also caused him to lose touch with the world outside of his aspirations. He was next in line to be ruler, but he was gone. Ht took peace for granted. He was spoiled by the peaceful history of Wano. It is possible that if he was able to spend more time being directly mentored by his father, he could have gained valuable insight into the oscillating nature of peace and prosperity. I think this guilt is a big reason he didn't face reality. It solidified his adventures as selfish and it would mean it ended up being a bad thing.

As a ruler, or at least the legitimate ruler, his job is the stability and continuity of his nation. Risking 5 years of enemy advancement for the sake of greedy perfection was just really dumb. It wasn't just dumb, it was a failure to be sufficiently mature.

The signs were all there but he couldn't grasp the reality that sometimes the bad guys win. This was ultimately a failure he set himself up for by being negligent, irresponsible and overly idealistic. He failed to grow when growth was handed to him. He looked the other way when the future was obvious. He abandoned his people and then tried to make up for it by chasing a perfect situation where people don't suffer from his immaturity. At every opportunity, he made things worse.

Edit1: It is possible he was actively monitoring whether Orochi was scaling up or scaling down in each region of Wano, during these years of Orochi's promise, but we have been given no indication of that. So I can only assume he was not doing his due diligence by verifying Orochi's story. If he would have kept a close eye on the situation, perhaps he could have learned he was wrong sooner.

[vagrant fox]

Saw that announcement, there’s no manga spoiler lmao. I’m an anime only watcher and I knew all of that, just a heads up😂😂

[desert wyvern]

It's marked as a manga spoiler topic because people can reference current manga events about it

The repercussions of Oden's decisions are going on as we speak in the arc in the manga

If you're an anime only watcher, you should take care being in this channel.

[desert wyvern]

Did you want this one pinned?

[rotund temple]

Sure! Thanks!

[river ridge]

Oden couldve danced but also told the scabbards to figure out what orochi and kaido were plannimg because them leaving was for sure some bs. He shouldve completely believed they wouldnt just up and leave and that they would harm anyone if he openly moved against them.

Dance but also plan behind the scenes.

Of course kanjurao wouldve foiled any plans but in the first year kaido and orochi couldnt afford to provoke oden and the samurai so they’d likely just feed them misinformation

[formal moat]

In terms of what Oden could have done originally when he returned to Wano with Roger, I don’t blame Oden for abandoning everyone while Wano was facing turmoil. Oden hands were tied because Roger was on a time crunch and essentially everything that lead up to reaching Laugh Tale was set as an example that some sacrifices are needed to be made for the greater good. Finding the One Piece was a even grander circumstance than recovering Wano, it’s what lead the storyline to where we are now. So I don’t blame Oden in that aspect while traveling with Roger’s crew.

I do however poise the idea that Oden could have rebelled against Orochi and Kaido when he finally returned to Wano. It ties back to the idea that sacrifices are meant to be made for the greater good, obviously in a clash with Kaido and his army there would have been some substantial casualties more accurately the hostages held up in the castle. I do believe had Oden fought back then he would have been successful and freed Wano, regardless of the cost at that moment.

Yes Oden essentially saved many lives at the cost of embarrassment for all those years dancing, but after Oden’s death there was even more death and tragedy throughout the 20 year span than had Oden initially stepped up to fight in the first place.

This whole dilemma with Oden reminds me of Vivi and Alabasta, if you guys remember for a significant amount of time Vivi was trying to stop any violence and unnecessary deaths from occurring. This would simply mirror some aspects of Oden’s decision in that moment of confronting Orochi and Kaido, he wanted to save as many lives as possible and avoid any conflict. BUT back in Alabasta, Luffy told Vivi in war there were always be people dying and that it makes no sense to fight this battle alone, just like Vivi had come to her senses and fought along the people she was trying to protect, Oden should have done the same and took the fight immediately to Kaido and Orochi even though Oden had good intentions

[fast kite]

The vivi comparison is on point, but for the wrong reasons. Luffy pointed out to Vivi that she was trying to take the whole burden on herself, and was unwilling to let others take some of it. She wasn't willing to ask the SHs to deal with the root issue, Crocodile, and instead she tried to take a peaceful route that wouldn't solve the issue. Oden was similar. He took the whole burden by himself, never told his vassals to do anything, never fought back after 5 yrs, just thought orochi and kaido would keep their promise and leave. He took a naive approach in the hope that the best possible outcome would happen. but Oden should've known better. I think a big part of it is he knows he could've resolved the situation earlier, but it got worse, so he felt doing this would make up for it, not thinking about/not planning for it being a lie.

[zinc sandal]

I am going to argue that Oden made the right choice because of following reasons:-
1)If we look at the history of oden , it's true that he was probably the strongest samurai in wano but the problem was that when wano was thrown in this state of turmoil, oden was not present in wano and in fact if oden had been in wano the situation in wano had never been worsened. Moreover oden took actions immediately after he got to know the situatuon in wano after returning from his voyage.
2)Now talking about all the options available to oden. One can argue that he could take action against orochi on the spot but I would like to reinforce the fact that it was not possible in that situation cause when oden went to confront orochi directly,he could not harm him in any way thanks to the barrier fruit ability of Semmimaru.
3)One can also argue that oden had the option to raise a war against kaido and orochi alliance. But practically speaking, 20000 beast pirates vs oden and his vassals even if we add some more samurai who could had supported oden back then,seems to be an impossible matchup cause the number advantage was too huge to be overcome.
4)One can also argue that if instead of dancing for 5 years ,oden could had confronted kaido in the begining too but in my opinion that fight would had been a tough one too and anyone could had won, like kaido did win in the final battle thanks to higurashi but despite that interference I don't think so oden was having a cruise victory and instead it was a very well balanced out fight.

5)We should also not avoid the circumstances oden was in because the 2 prime reasons he agreed to orochi's condition were firstly in order to avoid any casualities and settle the matter as peacefully as possible just like what king riku from dressrosa had done by agreeing with doflamingo's condition. Secondly there were many hostages held by orochi at that time and I don't think so oden should had just sacrificed those lives by refusing to oroch's condition.

Lastly I would like to conclude my arguement by saying that although it was naive for oden to put his trust in orochi's words but in my opinion it was possibly the best choice he could had made there according to the circumstances

[spring lotus]

If oden simply stayed back and asked roger for help wano would be free now cause roger wouldve absolutely destroyed kaido at that time

[zinc sandal]

Oden himself didn't knew about what was going in wano when he was on roger's ship, how come do you expect him to ask for roger's help then

[fast kite]

because he never asked.

[orchid star]

I mean after the whole voyage Roger abandoned the Roger pirates, and noone knew where he went.. He could have maybe asked Whitebeard but it's not like he's always there and not doing his stuff. Also let's not forget that a) other scabbards and samurai would have gladly accepted help from outsiders b) Samurai typically are portrayed as honourable, begging for help isn't so honourable

@zinc sandal I think your reasons are perfectly valid

[zinc sandal]

<@&884917716333506621>

[spring lotus]

I wasnt talking after they found the one piece. They had a quixk stop by to get the poneglyph from wano. In that meantime kinemon and the others begged him to stay but he ignored them and left. If he had stayed and simply asked roger for a little help Kaido would be gone or dead now lol

[orchid star]

It would have brought great tragedies, and Roger was still in a race against time.

[spring lotus]

Wdym

How would it bring great tragedies to defeat kaido

Roger would rather help out a friend anyways. Hes like Luffy. Also defeating Kaido wouldve taken him less than a day

The only reason why it didnt happen was cause of Odens pride and egoism and well plot

[orchid star]

Yeah but the whole process of recovering after the fight wouldn't take a day I think. I feel like Kaido gets heavily underestimated in terms of strength.

[orchid star]

Yeah I think this like the main point ngl

[spring lotus]

It wouldv done less damage than fighting kaido years later PLUS kaido and orochi destroying the entire country’s infrastructure

[orchid star]

Fair

[zinc sandal]

You are overlooking one point here, that in that short stop, oden never got to know about the condition in wano and that's why he didn't stop cause at that point his biggest motive was to search for the one piece but if he had known situation would had been different and oden would had surely stopped in wano but toki told kinemon and other to not tell oden about the current situatuon in wano because she wanted oden to achieve his dreams. So oden cannot be blamed by any means here

[spring lotus]

He can definitely be blamed because he refused to ask. Choc already mentioned this before. They begged him to stay and he didnt stop to ask whats wrong? Thats 100% on Oden and his fault

And while you can partly blame Toki, Oden knew sth was wrong in Wano actually. He had a bad feeling but he ignored it and left

[zinc sandal]

From the begining oden is portrayed to be the carefree, independent character who wanna pursue adventures and discover new things,I don't know why you expect him to ask him what happened without even knowing about what happened. And regarding the bad intuition oden had , do you seriously expect him to stop in wano just on the basis of a bad intuition, also I would like to highlight the point that oden was about to find out the one piece and that's not anything small,so obviously you can't expect that guy to stop behind just on the basis of bad intuition even when he knew nothing about happened. What you call ignorant is over excitement for me cause at that time there was nothing bigger than finding the one piece for oden

[spring lotus]

Idk why u giving me an explanation about his character when that doesnt change the fact that if he had asked snd stayed wano wouldnt be under kaidos and orochis control

Its understandable sure

[zinc sandal]

Idk why you trying to emphasise on the point of oden staying in wano againa and again when there was no basis of oden staying in wano since he didn't knew what was happening

[spring lotus]

But its still his fault and Oden knows that himself

The scabbards literally try to tell him whats going on and he just leaves

He is actively refusing to learn whats happening.

[zinc sandal]

Scabbards tried to tell but they couldn't tell, since toki said that she will divorce oden so oden moved on and didn't hear the scabbards both because of toki's words and the bad intuition he had that he won't be able to complete his adventure if he stopped in wano back then.

[spring lotus]

He def heard the scabbards. Roger literally did. Thats why he called him scum. And toki stopping them or not. Point is: Oden heard them trying to tell him sth and he already had a bad feeling about the situation in wano. He could have asked whats going on.

He put his adventure before his country and thats why Wano ended up as what it is today. Oden was being selfish

[zinc sandal]

Just a hypothesis but if we think about the distant future of what had happened if oden had stayed in wano. If oden had stayed in wano then roger couldn't had possibly got the one piece because oden was the only guy who could read poneglyph and if he wasn't with them then there was no possible way for roger to find the one piece and roger not finding one piece takes away the core of the story. One counter you can say is that maybe roger pirates and oden could had freed wano and then go in the search of one piece but we already know that roger didn't had much time left,so that assumption is also not possible. Therefore your point of oden staying in wano and saving wano back then would had come on the cost of the core of the whole story

[spring lotus]

Again as I‘ve said before Rogee would have no difficulties defeating Kaido at that time

He couldve done it the same day and moved on lol

[zinc sandal]

I don't really think so tbh, it would had been an all out war and could have lasted for few days. But again it's all assumption

[spring lotus]

How

Roger was the strongest pirate crew at that time. Kaido like 7 years later almost lost to Oden and his 9 samurais and Oden was not in the same league as Roger

[zinc sandal]

Lol we aren't oda, we can't know how many days a war will last ,it could had been over in a day or it could had been stretched on for few days. Not counting the big guns if we compare the army it would had taken time for even roger pirates to clear out all those 20000 pirates

[spring lotus]

Youre just making random baseless assumptions now. Its pretty clear.

Oden acknowledged roger snd whitebeard play in a different league than him.
Kaido almost lost to Oden few years later

The kaido at that time who was a good 6 to 7 years weaker would not have managed to hold on vs roger and his entire crew

Its the same as whitebeard said. If he had known earlier he wouldve ransacked Kaidos base but since its decades later snd Kaido and his crew got stronger snd bigger he couldnt just do that anymore. So he had to wait until he eventually died before doing anything in wano

[zinc sandal]

I just said that if we not count the big guns and consider the army strength and number,but you are right in one point that we are swaying from the topic and it was about oden staying in wano or not would had benifitable or not and I have made my stand pretty clear that oden staying in wano could had been profitable for the wano kingdom but it could had been for the worse in case of distant future because we can just make baseless assupmtion according to you like how long war would had lasted, or how long roger could fight his disease and many other infinite baseless assumptions

[spring lotus]

I get the disease argument. I wholeheartedly believe tho if you think kaido couldve held on against roger then youre just wrong

I‘ll write a big post sometime this week but not to sure where i stand yet

[zinc sandal]

I am not talking about just kaido in general that's the misunderstanding, I am just trying to highlight the point that the number advantage of kaido's army was very overwhelming and I defenitely agree that kaido would had eventually lost but imo the war could had been stretched longer due to the overwhelming difference between the numbers of both armies.

[spring lotus]

But Kaido didnt have the same numbers 7 years before rhe fight vs iden

He literally tells Oden if he didnt wait for 5 years he would probably have won

Roger pirates wouldve destroyed kaido and his entire crew and its pretty clear

[zinc sandal]

I still believe that although not the same but kaido's army must have some considerable number of people to take over the enitire wano and moreover he also must have the support of the samurai under orochi. Still I completely agree that roger pirates would had destroyed kaido and all the alliances but I would refrain to comment on how long it would had taken cause it would had totally depended on the army strength and numbers which are unknown to us

And ultimately it would had all come down to how long roger could fight with his disease

[spring lotus]

He could fight whitebeard for days with his disease

Hes clearing Kaido. Youre overestimating young Kaido in my eyes. He was building his army while getting shelter in wano and not having to worry about others until Oden made a move.

[zinc sandal]

For me there were too many facts unknown about kaido and beast pirates back then so I wouldn't like to come to a conclusion about how long or how short the war would have been. But yeah it's pretty evident that we both are stuck on two different stands, your are against oden's decision and I am in favor of decision of oden, so continuing this debate further just seems to be repetitive to me , so I will not like stretch it anymore.

[bronze marlin]

The then beast pirates had their armies reduced with the likes of Gecko Moria's crew.

That shows the competence of their crew then. Their reduced number was also a huge disadvantage for them

Oden was just an idiot. It wouldn't have caused them much time loss to push Kaido off Wano. Even fucking Roger and Rayleigh could alone do it

Or just take Kaido's own statement that if they didn't win, they would have won against Kaido's army. Now put in Roger who one shotted Oden and Rayleigh who was of similar strength

[bronze marlin]

@zinc sandal

[low compass]

lol

[spring heron]

@arctic epoch this channel is not for random off topic stuff, please keep it that way

[snow oracle]

Why is it only now that i realize this channel has been opened again

[desert wyvern]

No clue, but what does that have to do with the debate?

[snow oracle]

Nothing.

[desert wyvern]

Then let's keep it more on topic Feel free to present an argument

[devout galleon]

Orochi kept his promise didn’t he? Oden dances and no one gets hurt. If Oden had fought kaido then and there the hostages would’ve been slaughtered.

[spring lotus]

He didnt keep his promise he lied.

[devout galleon]

What do you mean, the people were saved thanks to Oden agreeing to orochi’s proposition

Oh wait nevermind

Ehhh they lied about leaving sure but he still saved those people

[daring elbow]

given oden's personality he thought making a fool of himself for wano's safety was the least he could have done since he left wano behind to explore the world outside his intentions was in the right place but i have say he was shortsighted in believing in orochi honouring his world the fact that how he was executed changed last minute because orochi didn't honour the arrangement of the 1 hour boiling in oil challenge

[olive grail]

Ye, there was a number given, 5 years = circa 26,000 lives he saved. Not bad. So far Wano's population number is unknown, but no way in hell it isn't in millions. Not that impressive in comparison.

and what a weird phrase "100 lives with each dance". Why not "he saved the whole population of Wano with each dance". There was a limit? He saved one 100, but other dozen would still be taken? Why exactly a 100, not thousand or more.

Was confused upon first reading it, didn't get better now

[nimble eagle]

Oden solos

[subtle cairn]

Odens choice prevented a war that would have torn his homeland apart. Even if he could solo Kaido, both the traitorous orochi and kaido had forces spanning the entire country who might not blink at slaughtering innocents either.
Was he probably blinded by his encounters with actually decent pirates like roger and whitebeards into thinking kaido might fulfil their agreement? Potentially. But hope of a future without war is a fair choice over a guarantee of war.

[lean whale]

still going on

[lean whale]

he didn't exactly save 100 lives a day, it was more like a saying

If i am not wrong, it meant his presence in wano prevented many from harms way

[lean whale]

If he was traveling with Wb n roger he would have definitely faced some other bad pirates on his journey, so they won't foolish enough to think kaido is anything like roger or wb

• it's not Kaido n Orochi were sitting quite during the 5year period or before that, there were surely some acts of violence against the people of wano going on

After seeing how Orochi broke his trust and ruined his country when he was gone, there shouldn't be a reason to trust him in any manner

[devout galleon]

They weren’t hurting the people in Wano since Oden was going around dancing in different regions to make sure everyone is safe

[lean whale]

he was only dancing in the capital i suppose

[devout galleon]

He wasn’t, he danced all over wano

[desert wyvern]

He was only dancing in the capital, he just traveled to different regions while he wasn't dancing

[lean whale]

yeah

[devout galleon]

Ah okay

[desert wyvern]

He only had to dance once per week, so he had the time to make sure the rest of the country was safe

[devout galleon]

Still, orochi and kaido didn’t hurt the people

[desert wyvern]

But he did, indeed, travel to make sure of it. So, to say he shouldn't have trusted Orochi would seem to ignore the fact that up until Hyogoro, Orochi was actually keeping his word.

[lean whale]

You never know, they may not be doing it in public

[desert wyvern]

But that's not really concrete, if it were happening it would've been made public to Oden

[devout galleon]

Oden would have noticed eventually

[cosmic flint]

Why didn't Toki just tell him that they won't keep their promise question mark

[desert wyvern]

Why would she possibly know?

[cosmic flint]

Didn't she show him the future at some point

[desert wyvern]

No, she's from the past

[lean whale]

She trusted her man, n beleived he will make the right choice

[devout galleon]

And he did. In the point and time orochi makes his offer to Oden, Oden made the right choice in accepting.

[lean whale]

Oden is undeserving of such a woman

[desert wyvern]

Yeh, Oden told her about the 20 years into the future thing

She didn't know about it

[potent sapphire]

she isnt from the future lol

[subtle cairn]

Foolish? He had no idea who kaido was like we do. Kaido is honourable enough in other ways to leave him space to believe he might fulfil the bargain in full. Ironically the one honourable act he did do orchestrated his own fall.
Killing the old woman and freeing bon clays fruit so he could go on to save luffy twice. God I love odas weird roundabout works of fate

[cosmic flint]

Oh. I misunderstanding the meaning of the line. Mb

[cosmic flint]

I know that lol

[subtle cairn]

Oden is entirely deserving of this woman

You just wish you had a toki

[lean whale]

But the normal notion about pirates is that they are lying murderer scum

atleast that's how general public think of them

[devout galleon]

Do we know if that’s how the people of wano think of them

[desert wyvern]

Wano isn't part of the "general public". They're at that same end of the spectrum due to their country

Likewise, Oden is far from that norm, and it wasn't a pirate who made the promise to him.

[lean whale]

Surely they know that pirates exist

[desert wyvern]

And further, Orochi actually held up his end of the bargain up until taking down Hyogoro.

[subtle cairn]

They don’t really know much exists at all, which is why oden was so driven to leave

[desert wyvern]

No, they literally didn't know that pirates existed actually

[cosmic flint]

Yeah you'd have to be a pretty impressive pirate to even make it to Wano

[lean whale]

I wasn't the one who said that

[devout galleon]

You could say Oden should’ve known since he spent time with pirates, but it was said Roger and WB had a visible soft spot

[lean whale]

it was that other guy

[desert wyvern]

Then you don't have to pay attention to that part, I didn't make a specific reply

[lean whale]

that's what i said

[desert wyvern]

I'm just correcting lol

[lean whale]

Just letting the other guy know its meant for him

[devout galleon]

But even then, even if Oden knows pirates are lying scum, he had no other choice in that moment other than to trust orochi. Roger and WB’s ways changed him for the better and let him put the lives of innocent people first

[snow sierra]

It wasn't all Roger and wb. Even before his journeys we see Oden saying goodbye to the deceased, saving the captial from the white boar

[cosmic flint]

Saying goodbye to a deceased friend and caring about a random guy in your kingdom are two different things though

His morality before he met Roger/WB/Toki was questionable at best

[olive grail]

whatcha mean

[desert wyvern]

Oden's morality has never really been questionable, it's always been extremely clear cut. The question was his rowdy attitude and poor behavior, but he's never been anything less than a decent person

[devout galleon]

Yeah I was talking about choosing the non violent method first/prioritizing innocent people. The pre-pirate Oden wouldn’t have accepted the offer and most likely would’ve went to war against kaido and orochi.

Kaido says Oden had a reputation for being “a madman who would not blink at any sacrifice”

[rich juniper]

Oden would’ve gotten fodderized by kaido if he never left wano

[subtle cairn]

Currently rewatching ep 659, aka dressrosas tragic past. Odens decision to trust Kaido mirrors Riku's quite heavily. Someone too good hearted and too unwilling to risk war, so they believe something that they might otherwise not have when in clear mind. Their good will is then abused by manipulative villains, and only leads to greater pain than if they HAD fought as their own reputation is tarnished. Interestingly with Oden, we see actual readers feeling that same way about his mistake.

[desert wyvern]

@outer knoll This isn't the channel for that, please read the channel description

[outer knoll]

ok lieutenant basicbean

my mistake

[devout galleon]

That doesn’t really change anything since Oden was always the type to rush into things. So much so that he was still doing it when he went to new islands with the Roger and the WB Pirates.

[rich juniper]

he would’ve rushed into battle and got one shot

[devout galleon]

That’s not what I’m talking about. His ways changed after leaving Wano. Even if he had stayed in Wano and somehow was still able to have gotten as strong as he did, he would have chosen to keep fighting Kaido even if it meant sacrificing the hostages. Which would not have been good in the long run. The people would have learned about it and grow to resent Oden.

[subtle cairn]

kaido does admit he needed the decade to be able to stand to oden. Plus, physically he's far slighter when we meet him 22 years ago, by no means the brick house of a man we know today

[desert wyvern]

It was only 5 years, but Kaido just admits it would've been a difficult fight, not that he couldn't still win it. But the difficulty wasn't because of Oden, it was because of Hyogoro and the yakuza

[subtle cairn]

I feel oden himself still stood a better chance when kaido was 5 years younger, physically he doesn't even look half as strong and I feel that style choice of havong him fill out over those five years isn't just a funky visual

[desert wyvern]

Physically, Kaido just grows a mustache, his physique was basically the same

For reference:

[round briar]

that is uploaded in the anime

[spring lotus]

He had a better sense of fashion back in the day

[round briar]

ys lol

[native lance]

Oden kinda made the wrong the decision for sure leading to his & Toki's death + the downfall of Wano, but you cannot blame him. Being kind and having a heart is not a mistake. It will be worth it in the long run.

[solid grail]

So few opinions

Usually we had more than 10, where are the usual culprits

[desert wyvern]

Go ahead and read the channel description before you post here

[lunar gust]

Whoops, sorry wont happen again @desert wyvern

[devout galleon]

The thing that I keep going back and forth between is that Oden made the right choice in believing Orochi won’t harm anymore people. I think his mistake falls on believing the promise that Kaido and Orochi will leave after 5 years.

Plus, to Orochi’s credit, no one got harmed

[desert wyvern]

LAST CALL FOR ARGUMENTS. ARENA CLOSES WHEN THE CHAPTER DROPS.

If yours hasn't been pinned, quote it and ping me.

[young geyser]

@desert wyvern add this one

[young geyser]

@desert wyvern and this one

[uncut thistle]

Why Oden made the correct decision- and why it's silly to think he could have ever chosen otherwise

First off, we need to clear something up. Kaido mentions in the viz translations that had Oden teamed up with Hyogoro and attacked him then, it would have been a "difficult battle". Could Oden have won? Maybe. Could Oden have lost, too? Absolutely. The outcome wasn't set in stone.

The Oden from long ago was a very selfish figure. Kind and caring, yes, but steadfastly set in his own dreams and ideals- much like Luffy, in that respect. Disowned from his household, he took it upon himself to build up Kuri, but when the opportunity showed itself, he abandoned his entire region without a second thought and without telling anyone, for the sake of his dream. He left his scabbards to scramble to manage the region and became a pirate for many years- during which time his negligence allowed Orochi to sneak his way to the throne.

The most glaring example of this is Oden's revisit of Wano during his time with Roger. Though he ignored his country for good reason, being the only one capable of getting Roger to Laugh Tale, he still turned his back on his country which he saw with his own eyes needed him. His scabbards wore ragged clothes and smokestacks rose in the distance, and though they begged him for help, Oden ignored them, setting out one last time to witness Roger's journey to becoming the Pirate King.

Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily, no. If Oden hadn't made that decision, the entire series couldn't have come to be. However, it cannot go unstated that he consciously ignored his country in order to do so.

However, upon his return to Wano as a wiser man, Oden witnessed firsthand the devastation Orochi had wrought on Wano, especially to his wife Toki, shot through the leg. In a rage, he attacks Orochi, and is faced with a dilemma- does he exact his revenge then and there, or does he have patience for the sake of a better future? (continued, running out of room)

Oden now can see what his own selfishness and negligence has caused- harm to his beloved wife and the country that was his responsibility. The old Oden would have likely attacked Kaido then and there without sparing a second thought to the people kidnapped by Orochi. However, Oden now has seen just what his recklessness can cause. He's now faced with a choice- if he attacks Kaido and wins, he takes back his country and it is saved forever. If he attacks Kaido and loses, Orochi will have his way with the kidnapped people and subjugate Wano for another 25 years to come. If he accepts Orochi's offer, he'll at least be able to save some lives, even if Orochi stays the oppressive ruler.

From what we know of Oden's decision, Oden did save those kidnapped people. The promise that was broken was of Kaido and Orochi to leave after 5 years- we're given no indication anyone else was harmed during these 5 years. If there was, Oden would have simply given up dancing in public.

When Oden attacked Kaido and lost, his people lost 20 years of happiness. If he had attacked Kaido and lost right in the beginning, his people would have lost 25. Is that a risk he was willing to take? Violence doesn't solve everything- Vivi taught us that during Drum Island. We don't have enough evidence to prove if Oden would have won against Kaido in the beginning. Therefore, at the time, his decision was the wisest move, and saved the most people in the long run. It's in line with his growth as a person, and the most effective method of saving lives for the long term.

[devout galleon]

@desert wyvern ^^

[devout galleon]

I’d like to think some part of Oden deep down knew they weren’t gonna leave. Oden deciding he might as well do as much good as he can by making sure no one got harmed, and leave everything else up to either the scabbards, his kids, or the primary figures he keeps mentioning. Even if he didn’t believe their promise, he wouldn’t have risked being responsible for the deaths of innocent people.

[uncut thistle]

mhm odens not stupid. hes idealistic maybe, but theres no way he never considered that orochi would betray him. the fact that he kept at it means he understood it to be the best way to save lives- he even says he never regretted his decision that day despite it being proven to him that orochi lied

[spring lotus]

If he almost won against kaido 5 years later he wouldve won 5 years before with the help of hyogoro

[uncut thistle]

did he almost win though
he landed one hit on kaido, was distracted, and then knocked unconscious
he did better than everyone thought he would have, but that doesnt say anything about his chances in the past

[spring lotus]

He went in for the final beheader then got distracted

[uncut thistle]

im not saying oden wouldnt have won against kaido- im just saying the risk is too great to take and oden knew that

[devout galleon]

I don’t think so. The reason he lost is because of that old woman. He would’ve gotten distracted by his child’s life, or someone else close to him, either way.

Oden was honestly just outplayed. Kaido and Orochi got him good, the route he chose really was the best for Wano in the long run.

[uncut thistle]

i maintain the only way to prevent orochis stranglehold on wano was for oden to never leave in the first place, because his absence let orochi do all the things he did

[devout galleon]

I think Orochi still would’ve found a way to slither his way into fucking Oden over. Oden leaving just made Orochi’s job much easier.

[spring lotus]

He shouldve defeated kaido together wirh roger when they stopped by

But oden ignored the scabbards asking for his help

[devout galleon]

Roger was in a hurry

[spring lotus]

It wouldnt have taken him long to defeat kaido

[uncut thistle]

yeah oden should really have investigated wano a little bit before immediately leaving after dropping off his family and grabbing the poneglyph
it was probably his last chance to actually do something, politically

[spring lotus]

And roger is like luffy. He would stop to help a friend

[uncut thistle]

tbh what really endears me to oden is his clear flaws, and his growth past them
hes fascinating to me in that regard

[devout galleon]

But we don’t really know that. Plus Toki pushed Oden to go, the scabbards were about to tell Oden what’s been happening and Toki stops them.

[chrome mist]

People arguing Oden's choice when Bellemere and her kids all could have easily survived if she lied lol

People just need to accept characters make extremely emotional choices even if they are wrong imo

[spring lotus]

Okay that doesnt change the fact that he couldve done it and it was a mistake that he didnt lol

[devout galleon]

I’m not one to mull over the past and get hung up on what someone should or shouldn’t have done, but if we’re talking about Oden accepting Orochi’s offer to not harm people then Oden made the right choice without a doubt.

Believing kaido and orochi would leave Wano? That’s up for debate imo.

[olive grail]

"The old Oden" would've...BUT The New Oden would've never, for example, dashed straight to the capital right after learning his wife got harmed. Even though, said wife and his trusty Scabbards begged him to listen to them, to reason that it wasn't as simple as it seems. No. The new Oden would've never brought up his "old version" of himself to boast. :
"Toki, you...You haven't heard the "tales" about me, have you?"
After all he knows better than them.
But that's all in the past. The new selfless reasonable Oden always puts others first. So there not much that could've been done

[uncut thistle]

im not entirely sure the point youre trying to make here
oden flew into a rage and ran off into the capital, citing the person he was on the seas- not as a boast, but as an explanation for why he cant take this sitting down
his actions however prove him different from before, if the tales were true and oden was in fact completely crazy hed have fought kaido there but hes grown softer

[olive grail]

My point is: there is no "old" and "new" Oden. There's one, he remained the same person, the only change was in his surroundings.

Always soft, but reckless, prideful and way too confident in himself.
Btw he was not talking about his adventures "on the seas".

[uncut thistle]

well thats just plain wrong oden has obviously changed, hes oden but hes grown from his reckless youth
its not like hes completely outgrown that, but would oden when we first meet him take up orochis offer? my wager is no, because he lived for thrill, throwing caution to the wind, chasing after his dreams
the argument im making is that odens decision to stop fighting and stay patient demonstrates considerable growth in his own mindset and shows his newfound responsibility for the citizens of wano, of whom he didnt particularly want to lead before this
and yeah youre right about the last one i did forget his wano centric reputation but my point stands still

character growth isnt a 180 in one's character- just a different mindset they approach the world with
its absurd to think odens years long journey with the two greatest pirates around hasnt changed him one bit

[olive grail]

It's nice to see a little leeway with the "he's not completely outgrown that"
My wager is yes, he would've chosen the same option as he did in our current story. Not because it was a diplomatic and noble decision he couldn't have reached in his youth for being too reckless, but because he would've been cornered in both scenarios.
We know he cares about his people (the drought, the Mountain God incidents), so one would assume after learning of hostages and seeing for himself people get hurt in the capital, he would take this burden of humiliation onto himself. That's what he does.
Again and again.Consistently rejecting the idea of getting help from his followers.
Exhibit 1. Sneaking away from his sleeping companions to get the job done by himself with Ashura.
Exhibit 2. Running off once Whitebeard arrived leaving his now Scabbards behind.
Exhibit 3. Doing the same again with the Whitebeard pirates (later while being a commander), trying to take on Roger pirates by himself.
Exhibit 4. Ya know, the whole dance situation.
So no, I don't think he changed.
As for his newfound responsibility for the citizens of Wano. I do not think he changed in his mindset here too. I'm gonna bet he wasn't thrilled to lead a country as was required of him. I even think, if it weren't for whatever he learned at the Laugh Tale (open borders, 20 years), he wouldn't have attempted to take the lead at all.

Oden boils by himself, before or after his adventures. Don't think it's that absurd.

[uncut thistle]

but im not arguing that he takes too much responsibility on himself either way hed take the most burden

[olive grail]

i'm showing his decisions through years, just don't c how he changed

You'd think being a father would cool down his blood, but Oden is better served hot

[uncut thistle]

im arguing solely that hes become more selfless
maybe his level of care for the people around him hasnt changed, but the attitude with which he chooses to help them has
notice how the first 3 exhibits you showed are all selfish actions, but the dance is done entirely selflessly

[olive grail]

The Mountain God incident where he decides to take all the blame on himself?

he got the hate of his people , but it's not like he cares what they think of him

Apply the same mindset to the "entirely selfless" dance. He never cared about his reputation and what others would think of him.

His wife and children still love him, his Scabbards still respect him, so it's not like he's sacrificing his life doing this dance

[uncut thistle]

we're on the same page in that respect so im confused where we disagree

[olive grail]

The old/new Oden thing

[uncut thistle]

youre taking that too literally i think

[olive grail]

You said "that's just plain wrong oden has obviously changed..." "...hes grown from his reckless youth"

Him running off to fight Orochi by himself without even listening to his wife and Scabbard's reasoning, is exactly what would Oden in his "reckless youth" would've done

[uncut thistle]

but he didnt end up doing it
hes reckless, he always has been- but hes learned to consider consequences
it was his own recklessness negligence that allowed orochi to come into power in the first place and to me before going off with whitebeard, if oden had the same decision, i think he would ignore orochis offer entirely and just attack kaido

course, i have no proof for that, since he didnt end up doing it

[olive grail]

But he was cornered! if Orochi didn't have the Barrier Barrier fruit user, his head would've hit the floor before he would've managed to say "Wait! I have incredibly powerful pirate to back me up!"

[uncut thistle]

does that really matter
if orochi died then and there this conversation wouldnt be happening lmao
im not even disagreeing that he was reckless and made an emotional decision but he didnt end up letting that go to his head when he saw what would happen if he did try to kill orochi and kaido

it demonstrates a level of maturity he didnt have in his youth

[olive grail]

Maturity and compassion like lending money to the "needy", essentially adopting throwaways, protecting against racial discrimination (Neko, Inu). He always somehow mixed his well-meant actions with his recklessness.
Ok, let's say timelines shifted and Oden was a daimyo of Kuri. He doesn't know about dfs, so getting to Orochi would seem even mors impossible. He still deeply cares about his people. And he would never involve his Scabbards as he always takes the weight on himself. He sees Kaido being a dragon, captured citizens and poisened arrows that hurt others.
After all this, would you think he still would take a chance with Kaido?

Aight, it's like 3 in the morning and I have exam tomorrow. But it was nice talking to you

[uncut thistle]

sleep well

[devout galleon]

Just because Oden changed doesn’t mean the “old Oden” is dead. The growth is in him choosing the peaceful method, something that we are told mirrors what Roger and WB did. That with Oden’s reputation of being a madman who wouldnt blink at any sacrifice, he would have doubled down and went to war against kaido and Orochi five years beforehand. But he didn’t.
Oden wouldn’t have made the same decision if he hadn’t left Wano. Oden’s ideals didn’t change after coming back, his methods did.

[nova magnet]

i disagree 😕

[devout galleon]

Do you want to say why you disagree?

[nova magnet]

no

[devout galleon]

Alright, have a good day

[clear zenith]

fr that dude is wrong I disagree aswell

[devout galleon]

You’re all free to bring in your counter arguments to the debate

[clear zenith]

he wasn't yonko level

[nova magnet]

oden gets violated by kiado

W

[fast kite]

wouldn't have been easy at all.

Bellemere also made a decision in the moment. Oden had 5 yrs to think about it, and never consulted anyone, just kept shit to himself and then when things went the way he didn't think they would, he goes and fights.

Ah, I was fencesitting before on this one, but maybe I should do a thing. Idk. I could balance it out.

[devout galleon]

Oden made his decision in the moment, too. And to be fair, the promise to not hurt anyone was being upheld, he made sure of it. It’s not completely foolish of him to think they would uphold the other promise as well.

[clear zenith]

hes not yonko level

[devout galleon]

Plus, what good would informing the scabbards have done? He might not have wanted to risk the scabbards growing restless and try to take matters into their own hands.

[clear zenith]

Oden gets bodied by Jack

[fast kite]

he never thought of a back-up, and I would say his decision had less stakes. It was unnecessarily made in the moment imo. Like, he led himself down that path, as opposed to being forced down it. He could've waited and heard about the situation and then made a decision to stay on wano or go, or ask roger etc. Roger was not in that much of a hurry. There was a whole ass yr between him finding OP and him dying. but the situation was unnecessarily hurried. and then he acted on impulse the moment he got back despite toki telling him not to. the only thing that's comparable is him making the decision to dance, which was not an irreversible decision.

What good is shouldering the burden by himself? What is the point of vassals you don't trust lol.

[spring lotus]

@fast kite what time is it for you

[fast kite]

almost 1pm

[spring lotus]

Aussies smh

3am here

[desert wyvern]

If you can't present an argument on topic, you need to stop posting here.

[desert wyvern]

This goes for you as well.

Be sure to shoot me a ping if you have a formal argument you'd like pinned Last call

[spring lotus]

Especially Roger knows his strength. Kaido was more of a well known rookie. He was the luffy of act 2 really and roger was the kaido of today. He would have defeated kaido espexially with the help of oden in a very short time so it wouldnt have taken him any time anyways

[spring lotus]

Wait when r u closing the debate?

[desert wyvern]

When the chapter drops, tomorrow morning for me

I'll say about 6 hours give or take

[spring lotus]

Oiii chill out

[fast kite]

oh damn. This topic is super fencesitty for me though lol

[spring lotus]

Or really idk if i wanna write an „essay“ on this topic

[fast kite]

I would probably argue with myself while writing something out

[spring lotus]

Im like choc hung up on the part that isnt lart of the question

[devout galleon]

Oden knew if he had stayed back when dropping off Toki, that he wouldn’t leave Wano again. And honestly, it seemed like Oden was willing to do that, if someone had asked him he would’ve stayed back in Wano. But Toki kept insisting that he leaves with Roger.
As for Roger having a year before he got to Laughtale, Oden and Roger didn’t know that. They had two poneglyphs that they still needed to find. It’s not as if the Roger pirates would have had a breeze against Kaido and Orochi’s forces.
And even if Oden ignored Toki, found out what was happening in wano, had asked Roger for help, and defeated kaido and Orochi, he would have had to stay and become Shogun. Which I doubt Roger would be okay with.

[desert wyvern]

It's a good one Flip a coin if you have to, there are really no wrong or cut and dry answers here

[spring lotus]

Oden couldve resolved the issue earlier but he didnt. But the question is about the ultimatum he got by orochi

[fast kite]

he wouldn't have to. Presumably toki would still be alive. I think there were cleaner solutions to the problem that weren't considered. Like I said, the whole thing was very rushed.

[desert wyvern]

To be fair, that does go perfectly in line with Oden's personality

He isn't exactly the sit and think about it type

[spring lotus]

How would it not have been

[devout galleon]

I mean all the other things Oden did were questionable. But I do believe that everything he did before confronting orochi aside, in the moment the offer was presented to him, Oden made the right choice in accepting and trusting Orochi

[spring lotus]

Roger was able to clash equally with a peak whitebeard at that time for days

[fast kite]

yeah. in regards to the ultimatum, I'm very fencesitty. Emotionally, maybe even rationally, it was probably correct. but 5 yrs of doing nothing was not. Like, not relying on others to get any info, only relied on himself, never told anyone what he was doing.

[spring lotus]

Kaido almost lost to oden after he had 5 years to get stronger. Rogers crew and Oden wouldve rolled over Kaido at that time if they just stayed

[devout galleon]

A spar with another pirate crew is not the same as getting involved in another country’s problems. Especially when you take into consideration it’s a closed off country. And Roger was definitely on a time crunch.

He would have run the risk of potentially losing a crewmate too

It’s not an easy thing to ask someone to do

[spring lotus]

? Roger was like luffy tho

[fast kite]

It was very much pride shooting himself in the foot, while making a decision that disregards pride.

[spring lotus]

I dont think thats a problem. Oden was part of their crew. He was a member closed into their hearts. They wouldve all died for him either way

[desert wyvern]

Oo, truth be told, there's a chance Oden either couldn't have gotten to Roger in that time, or the rest of the crew, or Roger would've just been unable to deal with Kaido by then

[spring lotus]

Wdym bean

We‘re talking about the tile they stopped by in wano to get the poneglyphs and drop off toki

[fast kite]

We're talking about pre-PK bean. When they first get to Wano. with roger. Oden never heard the problems of Wano, Toki just said "don't listen, just leave" and oden did.

[desert wyvern]

Oh, I see, true true.

[devout galleon]

Roger knew he was dying and still needed to find two poneglyphs

[fast kite]

well no, he knew where all of them were by that point.

[desert wyvern]

Yeh, they'd only gone to Wano for its glyph

[spring lotus]

I mean roger literally ruined an entire nations army because they insulted his friend. The guy would def help Oden fight a Kaido that he would not have any problems with

And idk where u get this idea from that roger would have difficulties to defeat kaido

[devout galleon]

Still needed to get there. And then had to get to Laughtale.

[spring lotus]

Wdym get there?? He was already in wano

[fast kite]

If Oden discarded his pride to ask Roger to help out, Roger absolutely would've. we even see this at the end when roger pirates disband they're all like "hey oden if you want our help just ask" and oden was like "nah bro my problem"

[devout galleon]

To get to the two other poneglyphs

[fast kite]

but he knew where they were. The only thing roger needed help with from oden was reading them.

[devout galleon]

I don’t remember them doing that actually

[spring lotus]

Theyre in wano to drop off toki.
The wcabbards try to tell oden about kaido and orochi but tokis like nah dont listen to them leave snd oden did snd ignored them. Even Roger heard the scabbards asking oden to stay.

All he had to do was ask roger. Roger would help him out defeat Kaido and then they‘d go on about their day and settle again whether thats the same day or next day. Roger is literally like Luffy and would rather die helping a friend than have his friend die because he was greedy

[devout galleon]

No. I said even if Roger helped defeat Kaido, Oden would have had to stay back as shogun.

[spring lotus]

Well he couldve ran off again and they also maybe couldve killed kaido for good. He doesnt seem like hes immortal

Kill orochi and kaido and the problem is solved. Have one of the other daimyos control wano

[devout galleon]

Why do you think he said “if I turn back, I may never go out to sea again”

He can’t abandon wano like that

[devout galleon]

Except it’s not. They have to go against their entire army. Oden would have had to wage war against orochi and kaido.

[spring lotus]

You do know that army was a lot weaker 5 years before he fought rhem. And he still almost won. Roger couldve taken out a good 80% (random number but majority) alone. They were fodder

[spring lotus]

Roger played in another leageu than oden

[devout galleon]

Ah alright, that was before the actual flashback. ty

[spring lotus]

And kaido only won because of that dirty trick. For all we know oden was about to behead him at that moment

He was def not winning heavily against oden to say he would be s threat to roger snd his entire cree that were at their peak around that time

(Except for shanks and buggy)

[devout galleon]

And for you to say that it would’ve been a breeze is not accurate either.

You are correct about Kaido winning because of a dirty trick though

[spring lotus]

Well its a logical assumption when we see how oden got sent flying in one hit snd them basically sdmitted that roger snd whitebeard play in s completely different league