debate-arena

[spring lotus]

After seeing them clash only

[desert wyvern]

They probably couldn't have killed Kaido

[spring lotus]

Kaido himself said oden would have had s better chance at winning against him if he fought him 5 years before

[desert wyvern]

I saw this because he was actually introduced as having fought the Emperors before, with a definitive statement that they all tried and failed to put him down for good

[devout galleon]

Better chance because his army was smaller

[desert wyvern]

^ And because of the other samurai helping out

Kaido cites he was worried about Hyogoro and the others with Oden, not just Oden himself

[spring lotus]

Which makes my point even stronger. A weaker army while oden had a stronger with roger snd his crew

Hyogoro is fodder to roger

If hyogoro was a threat roger rick rolls kaido. Its really not hard to understand. I get your oden had to stay back argument tho

Which is why i dont wanna a waste a long paragraph on the scene that isnt part of the question

[desert wyvern]

No no, it's not a single person Kaido was worried about

It was all of the samurai getting behind Oden, and he still only admits it would've been difficult and not an outright loss

Hyogoro was the leader of the worst/strongest of the samurai, the yakuza, and Oden was his friend who also had the other best samurai in Wano behind him evidently

[spring lotus]

Yeah than all the samurai PLUS ROGER AND HIS CREW wouldve rolled over kaido

My point is roger would have had no difficulties defeating kaido together with oden and the others. Killing whatever idk why kaido is seemingly unkillable thats for another discussion. But really they wouldnt have had trouble defeating them

[desert wyvern]

Before he had his thousand man army and commanders and such, you're probably right, yeh

[spring lotus]

The reason why Oden didnt ask is cause of his pride snd well that thought that he would never leave wano again

Which i dont remember well enough if there was more to it

[fast kite]

roger would've rightfully dragged his ass back onto that ship tbf lol

[spring lotus]

„I just helped you out defeat that monster hell nah you finishing your job for what i stole you from whitebeard“

[desert wyvern]

Y'know what, I'd say Roger would've insisted on helping if it meant Oden had to stay Clear up the problem as SOON as possible, dude had a hard timer on his body and Oden was his meal ticket

[fast kite]

yeah

[spring lotus]

Sounds a lot like roger or luffy

[fast kite]

Alternatively, Oden could've pulled the dick move and said "you're not getting to laugh tale until you help me solve this problem"

which albeit, is pretty out of character but

[spring lotus]

Luffy def wouldve been like „whats the problem? Kaido? Okay lets kick his ass and then u come with us problem solved“

[devout galleon]

Thing is, I wouldn’t even say he needed Roger’s help. Especially since Oden was seemingly winning against Kaido if it weren’t for that old woman. What are the chances the old woman did the same thing to Oden, Roger, Rayleigh or whoever was about to land a finishing blow on Kaido

[spring lotus]

Then kaido gets s blow on one person snd gets jumped by the others

And defeated. At best he couldve taken one out. But at that time that old hag didnt even know momo

She wouldve probably used odens father which wouldnt botjer the others

[devout galleon]

She would have. They still had Kanjuro as a spy. Kanjuro would have told her and Orochi everything.

[spring lotus]

They wouldve jumped kaido the same day. No time wasted. She needs to touch momo to get his face

Before she even reaches momo roger rayleigh scopper snd oden wouldve been on kaidos ass

I wonder if scopper snd rayleighs strength are comparable tho

Either way to cite shortly my opinion on the debate question:

Regarding the situation five years later I dont think it was bad of oden to accept the deal they had. He had no other choice but he at least shouldve asked for help and or advice in these 5 years.

Aside from the question tho I think he shouldve attacked kaido the day he dropped of toki and stopped at wano. Together with rogers help they wouldnt have had any difficulties and it wouldve resolved the issue a lot earlier.

[young geyser]

@jagged dune this is not the channel for that. We have a specific topic in the channel description.

[desert wyvern]

END OF THE ODEN DEBATE

This channel will be read-only until the next debate. The results and arguments are in the 📌 pinned messages if you'd like to take another read-through.

Thanks for participating, guys. Great arguments again!

We'll be holding a stage event Sunday at 8pm EST, join us as we go over the results of the debate and present some points live.

In the meantime, please vote for your choice at: https://strawpoll.com/zx9g6uda2

[desert wyvern]

The stage discussion for this debate has been cancelled for today

Thanks to everyone who participated, I'm happy with the turnout and the arguments presented.

It looks like the results of the strawpoll show an almost even split, with a majority in agreement that YES, Oden made the right choice.

Feel free to discuss this further in one of the manga channels, can't wait to have the next debate. Keep an eye on the #events channel for the next topic!

[desert wyvern]

ARGUMENT

First appearing at the end of the Drum Island arc in chapter 154, Portgas D. Ace served as Luffy's older brother figure in the first half of the series. Throughout the pre-skip era, we're given glimpses into his chase of the then unknown Blackbeard, including his cover story adventure and his first meeting with Luffy in Alabasta, all the way to his eventual defeat from Blackbeard and execution at Marineford. As Ace showed up more and more, we were given deeper and deeper glimpses into both his history and his personality, culminating in the well known Ace/Sabo/Luffy flashback after Marineford. During Marineford, Ace's greatest mistake came from his seemingly unyielding and irrational personality.

Given everything we'd learned about Ace until the A/S/L flashback, were his irrational actions during Marineford a justifiable character flaw?

YES
Fortsy:
#debate-arena message

The Tubby Sandshrew Files:
#debate-arena message

Vice Admiral Matehiqu:
#debate-arena message

Apoo:
#debate-arena message

Andreas:
#debate-arena message

THE GOD:
#debate-arena message

NO
Okama Lieutenant basicbean:
#debate-arena message

V i c:
#debate-arena message

RESULTS:
https://strawpoll.com/polls/1MnwvdoJxy7

Please note: Justifiable character flaw refers to Oda's development of Ace as a character in the series, not whether his actions were bad or not.

[clear zenith]

first

What irrational actions did he make in marineford?

[hollow sable]

Letting Akainu get the better of him

[clear zenith]

yes but, this was all for him to save luffy was it not?

[willow hare]

^yeah, going back towards akainu after he egged him on

instead of escaping

[marble patio]

Well more specifically when Akainu insulted Whitebeard

[hallow hill]

Everything he did was for a good reason

[clear zenith]

wait I'm going to need to take a look back at that episode

[hollow sable]

He could have kept running with Luffy. He turned back upon letting his (mind the pun) hot head cloud his judgment

[clear zenith]

if my memory serves me right, wasn't it luffy's fault for him to lose the vivre card and have ace save him?

[hallow hill]

yeah

[hollow sable]

No thats what ended up causing Aces initial death. If Ace kept running Luffy would be like "Ace! I dropped your vivre card" and Ace would be like "Luffy Im right here we can make a new vivre card when we're safe"

[viral merlin]

in the ASL backstory ace never ran away from his enemies because he felt that if he runs away he leaves the people he loves (luffy) unprotected, so him not running away and protecting luffy was part of personality, that is also why he didnt want him to make fun of WB, coz he devoted his life to WB and he was important to him

[devout galleon]

This prompt feels a little strange since he was underdeveloped up until his death for a reason, so it can be explained in the flashback. Idk if I can call it a flaw at this point in the story after having read the ASL flashback.

[clear zenith]

Ah, I see you perspective on this now, either way imma need to rewatch this scene to have proper judgement

[rare lantern]

Ace stopped running

It was his fault

[hollow wing]

Very interesting topic, I’ll do my write up throughout the day and post my thoughts before getting into arguments

[desert wyvern]

That's the big point of contention, that we don't get it justified (in my opinion) until the ASL flashback

[viral merlin]

he stopped running for reason tho

[rare lantern]

Luffy couldn't move, but this is interesting because we don't get more context as to why Ace would entirely stop

[desert wyvern]

Which would make what he did up to that point far more irrational than we were lead to believe he would act

[light prairie]

Ace was in immense shock at how much destruction was happening around him.

[rare lantern]

Yeah but the prompt is if Ace's actions are justified before the flashback

[desert wyvern]

But yes, to clarify, it's not about whether the move was good or whether he shouldn't have done it or not, it's strictly whether or not Oda developed his character in a way that would lead you to believe he would go out of his way to do something like that.

[visual flame]

if I had to write a short answer, yes, long answer soon

[clear zenith]

short answer yes ^

[hollow sable]

I cant even say its a justifiable character flaw cause we saw so little of him in the anime prior to the fact

[devout galleon]

Short answer is no I feel like

[willow hare]

very hard to justify it if we're ignoring a large part of ace's characterization

[devout galleon]

Okay I think I understand what the prompt is getting at now

[clear zenith]

At that time, before his characterization after his death, I do think that I would lean more towards that his actions were a bit more unjustified

[rare lantern]

He was always hotheaded

I just think we needed to see more of that

I'm also one of those people who would've preferred to have gotten the ASL flashback way before MF

So that's also something to think about

[devout galleon]

And the fact that we hadn’t up until that point kinda shows it’s not justifiable

[rare lantern]

Yeah

[willow hare]

i think even with the ASL stuff its not justified that ace would have turned back

[rare lantern]

I'm actually gonna say no on this one I think

[visual flame]

I feel like the ASL story would have given more contextualization behind his motives, but his characterization was still consistent that it allowed for a believable flaw in how he behaved.

[rare lantern]

We only really got 2 scenes with him prior

He was definitely a hothead though

[clear zenith]

If we were to have the ASL flashback for marineford, we would have had a lot better of an experience at marineford in my opinion

[willow hare]

was ace a hothead though?

[hot bloom]

[rare lantern]

Chasing after BB even though it was a bad idea, fighting Smoker immediately, and falling for Akainu's provocation

Yeah, he was literally a hothead

[hot bloom]

Pretty much the reason of disobeying whitebeard

[willow hare]

WB let him chase BB though

^I was pretty sure this was the case

[gaunt hull]

Based on what was shown prior in the anime I would say it is not justified simply because there were very little scenes abt him so far however if we consider the flashbacks it does seem justified

[rare lantern]

Shanks warned against that

[green sierra]

Yes

[devout galleon]

The action in and of itself isn’t but the action done as a part of his character, sure

[rare lantern]

Doesn't mean Ace should've done it though

Even if WB never stopped him

[willow hare]

yeah

[hollow wing]

It’s all dandy until you realize ASL shows that Ace HAD more a motivation and responsibility to stay alive due to his promise with Luffy

And a whole section of learning manners and control from Makino,

Which was displayed before MF with meeting Buggy and the SH’s

[gaunt hull]

definitely was a hothead tho

[rare lantern]

This was a mistake that they almost made back then though

Even WB was against avenging Oden

So Ace wasn't justified here

[hollow wing]

It’s not the debate topic but ASL doesn’t help justify MF

[rare lantern]

Especially because he went alone

[gaunt hull]

Imma say no for this one

[rapid trench]

wasn't he obsessed with taking down Teach?

[rare lantern]

Yeah but that doesn't mean Ace should throw himself at the dude either

[hot bloom]

It's being guided by emotions . i.e. not thinking about consequences of failure. So hot head

[serene lion]

no, he was shocked at every allied pirate, pops, all crew, 2 warlords, luffy, revolutionary and impel down guys came to his rescue and didnt want them dead

[stone frigate]

I’d say it’s justified since it doesn’t contradict any part of his character we had up until that point
Unless I’m making a logical fallacy here

[rare lantern]

We didn't know enough about him in my eyes

[hollow wing]

Also chasing BB, a former crewmate who killed another, for revenge,

Is WAY different from going back in the midst of war due to a Yo Daddy insult

[light prairie]

Yeah, should’ve said that myself, but seeing them get blown to hell would have broke him.

Especially Lil Oars jr.

[hollow wing]

I dislike using that to justify Ace’s “hotheadedness”

[rare lantern]

What's funny is that Luffy has that same trait at times too

The difference I'd say is that Luffy never went at anyone alone

[rapid trench]

Ace's motives weren't that clear, we were only given bits and pieces of what he's doing

[rare lantern]

But uhhh... he kind of did that against Kaido in Act 1 so...

I think Ace was supposed to be like a Luffy who didn't know how to rely on others while sprinting straight to the finish line

[pine quartz]

so aces flaw was he wasnt the mc lmao

[hollow wing]

The difference is freaking Saboady Vic

[rare lantern]

Yeah in a way

[serene lion]

well he was not shocked cuss he was a big shot pirate and knows far more about wars than the pirates we had seen in the series till that date...
but he was sad to see his fiends die

[hollow wing]

Where Luffy said we can’t win

Let’s run

So we all live

[gaunt hull]

the fact that he went on and body blocked is not justified so many sacrifices so many deaths so many people going against the world government he should have realized

[rare lantern]

Yeah, Luffy actually retreats

[hollow tinsel]

I don't think it was a character flaw because even though he did stupid things sometimes he did it for the sake of other people/his companions but there is always a possibility that he thought he was doing it for other people but he was really doing it just for himself

[hollow wing]

Ace is supposed to be a more controlled Luffy

Remember Alabasta?

Dude even becomes friends with Buggy

[hot bloom]

He was sort of supposed to get luffy's fruit. So I guess yeah ?

[rare lantern]

You would think the older brother would be more mindful of stuff like that

But he was kind of a jobber in that aspect

[hollow wing]

And he was portrayed to be more mindful

[rare lantern]

Iirc

[hollow wing]

The most hotheaded thing he did pre-MF is literally BB

[rare lantern]

They added some filler scenes with Ace

[hollow wing]

Which like I said

[hollow wing]

^

[pine quartz]

I think if they swapped roles, Ace wouldnt have passed blackbeard at impel down

[serene lion]

he had to plan out for BB rather than just go bashing in

[minor void]

What does a "justifiable character flaw" mean?

[hot bloom]

Ace didn't have big enough dreams I suppose

[hollow wing]

It means if Oda showcased previously Ace had this flaw

[serene lion]

shut

[hot bloom]

Calm

[rare lantern]

Was Ace being hotheaded validated enough to explain why he basically just walked into Akainu's deathtrap

[hollow wing]

100% no

[serene lion]

he was shown that way, but in fact he had one of the most technical brain

[rare lantern]

Yeah at this point in time

Before the context of his flashback

I don't think it's enough

[hot bloom]

What lead you to say this?

[rare lantern]

So I kind of have to say no

[gaunt hull]

i would say no for sure

[hollow wing]

I argue even with ASL

[rare lantern]

Ace chasing BB could be seen as a flaw or hotheaded

But it's not the same

[stone frigate]

You could view him going after BB as defending the crews honour
As in not letting a traitor like him run free

[hollow wing]

That’s fine

[minor void]

Hmm, well, we did see him splitting off from Whiitebeard's crew on his own. So while not as extreme, the flaw was suggested.

[hollow wing]

Again, a guy you trusted and liked killing a fellow crewmate and going and chasing him is different from going back after YOUR FRIENDS DIE FOR YOU

Because “Yo daddy” insult

[stone frigate]

Are we allowed to bring up aces novel in this discussion
Or is that still considered non canon

[hot bloom]

Going solo is not a good idea against someone who just got a fruit that you don't know the full extent of

[hollow wing]

Ace’s novel isn’t considered canon

You could try to defend it being canon but you’d be shut down most likely, the general consensus is it isnt

I’d use strictly the manga

[hot bloom]

So what makes ace different from let's say marco ? Should we then assume that marco cares about him less ?

[hollow wing]

Marco is very different from Ace

And wdym cares about him less

Cares ab WB less?

Thatch?

[hot bloom]

Dead friend

[hollow wing]

Marco followed his captains orders

Ofc he was pissed at BB too

[hot bloom]

And it's the hotheadedness of Ace I tell you

[hollow wing]

Yeah sure

But again

That’s a different level of aggravation

Than a Yo dad insult

[hot bloom]

Disobeying whitebeard

[stone frigate]

Let’s think about it this way
Would whitebeard / his crew have done anything if ace was already dead?

[hollow wing]

Killing a crewmate is something much harsher and crazier and aggravating than someone insulting Pops

Especially in the context of the war

Where your friends and brothers died so you can live

[minor void]

If justification means "Why he does this", then I lean towards no. If its "Is this trait shown before Marineford" then I lean towards yes

[hollow wing]

Ace had to be shown as much more rash previously

To justify this

And he wasn’t

[hot bloom]

Doesn't mean he wasn't hot headed though. What would exactly support your argument if ace did hear an yo dad insult before and didn't react like he did to akainu

[clear zenith]

ace honestly did have a solid reason because he’s a family man like wb n akainu threatened WB and luffy so ofc he’s gonna fight him but rlly he needed. to go

[hollow wing]

We see him level-headed in Alabasta, with Buggy, etc

[hot bloom]

He wasn't in the same situation before.

[minor void]

Did Ace know what fruit BB stole?

[hollow wing]

Ace was portrayed as a more mature controlled Luffy

[hot bloom]

Was there really anything to throw him off his game though?

[hollow wing]

Still hotheaded but controlled

[verbal matrix]

Feel like Ace was more cocky about his DF than hotheaded

[stone frigate]

I’m pretty he did but i don’t think he did any research on it

[hollow wing]

No but he’s still more mature than Luffy

At least it seemed that way

[wise fjord]

probably not

he probably knew the name tho

[pine quartz]

I think the post war arc summed up Aces personality very well, remember that pirate they fought that said something along the lines of only the cowardly and strong survive and the brave die and that was Aces downfall because he wasnt the strongest.

[hollow wing]

Saying post war summed up Ace means you agree that it wasn’t justified in MF

[hot bloom]

Yeah I do agree on that. But doesn't really prove that he wouldn't go back to fighting because akainu insulted one of the only people he looked upto

[hollow wing]

If LUFFY knew when to run

You’d think Ace would know

[hot bloom]

Was luffy put in same situation as ace ?

[hollow wing]

Ace did what kid Luffy did in the flashback with Shanks

Run to the bandits cuz they insulted his hero

[minor void]

I think Ace going off to fight Blackbeard is reasonable. Passionate but not like irrational.

[hollow wing]

Ace has the maturity of kid Luffy? Ok

[wise fjord]

yep

[civic haven]

My boy ace was a saint but if he was harder and had better haki he would of been so much better

[hollow wing]

Didn’t seem that way in Alabasta

Or anytime pre-MF

[minor void]

As far as he knows, BB is by himself, and he has the element of being able to surprise him.

[wise fjord]

kinda immature but i’m sure ace knew whitebeard is going to die there

[sour gate]

When Ace was younger he said he didn’t want to have any regrets and that’s why he acted like that when Sakazuki said that Whitebeard would never amount to anything and that’s why he died that’s also why he got defeated by BB cause he didn’t want to regret not going after him.

[pine quartz]

luffy walked away from bb in impel down tho

[hollow wing]

He did, because Luffy had other things to do

So again are we claiming Luffy is more mature than Ace

[hot bloom]

It's very immature of ace to go back fighting in mf . But there's really isn't anything that suggests he wouldn't

[hollow wing]

Was Ace portrayed as mature pre-MF?

I say yes

[wise fjord]

yeah definitely

[hot bloom]

Mature as in ?

[hollow wing]

Hence, MF’s character flaw is not justified

THATS my point

[hollow wing]

More level headed than Luffy at least

[minor void]

So I guess my current stance on this is no, its not immediately justified. Because I do really think Post War is what makes you understand Ace and Luffy more.

[hollow wing]

He’s not socially dumb

Etc

[hot bloom]

Handling insults? We haven't seen ace handling insults before mf

[pine quartz]

didnt whitebeard also tell him not to go and he didnt listen?

[verbal matrix]

I mean Luffy is emotionally intelligent though

[wise fjord]

in alabasta he was portrayed mature

[hot bloom]

People react differently to different things

[hollow wing]

Because a dead crewmate is an insane offense

[pine quartz]

all of jaya was luffy walking away aswell

[hollow wing]

As opposed to a Yo dad joke

[minor void]

^

[hot bloom]

But whitebeard did tell him not to go

[hollow wing]

I know

He disobeyed

[visual flame]

Ace's impulsiveness was highlighted further by the fact that everything built around Ace in Marineford was about his "father" Whitebeard and his real lineage. Ace was a naturally hot-headed person, whose actions only reinforced this idea and justify why he acted the way he did. The act of mockery on Akainu's end is something that, without the build-up of Ace's father's reveal and subsequent backstory on, the grudge he held against Roger as well as the actions Ace took at the news of Blackbeard, would not have worked. It's only because of these points, which were highlighted in the story repeatedly that, to me at least, justify his actions of attacking Akainu. Oda touched on all the key bases of Ace's character flaws and weaknesses, which are why his death to so many felt so painful (obviously not everybody), and why so many came to resent Akainu, not only for the actions themselves, but for what he did to get to Ace directly. He hit him where it hurt. Another thing to mention is that Ace's abilities were something he had great confidence in, and that conception was torn down quickly in their fight when Akainu highlighted the difference between the "heat" in their logia abilities. Ace was confident in his own strength individually, especially as it was mentioned he'd become a strong rookie so quickly by Whitebeard, but it proved he was also naïve and did not fully understand the kind of situation he was going into. I do think the flashback itself being presented beforehand would have justified his actions moreso than what we're presented, but I do think what he did in the story was consistent with his characterization at the time and especially now. Contextualization (backstory, flashbacks ect.) is not necessarily needed for characterization (actions within the story, made by the character's personality) to make sense within the story, but it adds a layer you wish was there before. It just helps to justify existing actions made by a character.

[hollow wing]

He’s hotheaded to a degree sure

[wise fjord]

damn

[hot bloom]

Why is Ace the only one who disobeyed ?

[hollow wing]

But is he so hotheaded to die in war after his friends sacrificed everything? Because Yo dad joke?

[sour gate]

Ya and he was close friend with Thatch he wasn’t going to let it go that easily

[pine quartz]

ok if we talking about disobeying your captains orders, look at the strawhats

[wise fjord]

because of his childhood trauma i think

[hot bloom]

Could be

[hollow wing]

Because he had some personal stake in it and was hotheaded enough

But again

Different degree of hotheadedness

[minor void]

He was close with Thatch, and was definetely the only one who let it get to him. Thats not irrational though

[hollow wing]

From throwing away your friends sacrifice

In MF

[desert wyvern]

Gonna throw a slightly longer slow mode on here guys, let's try to get some long form arguments going

[hollow wing]

Ace would’ve need to be shown as EXTREMELY rash beforehand

[hot bloom]

Of course it's not irrational to get angry at teach. But disobeying captain's order is different thing

[wise fjord]

why did whitebeard didn’t take revenge on kaido

[hollow wing]

Not the topic

Unless you can relate it

[minor void]

I don't think it's irrational to disobey Whitebeard either. That's Ace's personal choice.

Irrational to me would be Ace going in to a situation that he for sure would not be able to handle (like Akainu lol). I'll concede that his character flaw isnt nonexistent before MF of course, but I dont think it was enough to justify it.

[wise fjord]

wb don’t take revenges so ace thought he have to do it himself

[desert wyvern]

Read the pinned post and the channel description please

[wise fjord]

i’m relating to it

[stone frigate]

When you say until the A/S/L flashback do you mean until the end of it or until the start of it

[minor void]

Iirc, its even Shanks who goes "Oh, BB is dangerous man". The story presents BB's real danger as something Ace is unaware of, and reasonably unware of. So his decision making at that point is rational.

[sour gate]

Can we not talk about him going to fight Kaido

[desert wyvern]

Everything before, we're given his characterization during the flashback

[stone frigate]

Aight

[desert wyvern]

You're not doing it very well, we're looking for well thought out arguments for the topic at hand here. This channel is very specific for it

[wise fjord]

ok

[hot bloom]

He led himself to believe that he can solo Blackbeard though. Without knowing about his fruit

[minor void]

Well, is it unreasonable for him to think he could?

[hot bloom]

Yes. A crewmate you knew for long murdered another one for fruit. He was also known to have knowledge about fruits more than an average person. Why did teach commit murder? Did Ace think that?

[sour gate]

He didn’t know anything about his fruit BB explained it to him as they where fighting

[hot bloom]

Ace definitely bit more than he could chew

[wise fjord]

i think ace biggest flaw was his arrogance due to which he got captured

[hot bloom]

An unknown fruit is even more dangerous than a known one

[minor void]

But Blackbeard is a new fruit user. Sure there's a risk to it, but Ace isnt unreasonable to think he could win.

[hot bloom]

But did he not stop to think why whitebeard is stopping everyone else? Is it just because he saw teach as a son ?

[sour gate]

He was naive because his thoughts where clouded by his friendship with Thatch so he didn’t fully think about it.

[devout galleon]

Should this get pinned 👀

[sudden sigil]

Yeah thats true, iirc one of the elders also commented something like that about Blackbeard when they learned he had a zero bounty

Fearing the unknown would have saved ace

[sour gate]

He wasn’t thinking about it tho he didn’t think it through

[boreal cave]

New debate??????

[devout galleon]

Oda touched on all key bases of Ace’s character flaws and weaknesses

I think this is where the problem for me is. It was very briefly touched that when Ace reacted that way you can’t help but feel like he’s over exaggerating. Like yeah we knew he has issues with his actual father and he looks up to WB a lot, but we never really know how serious it is until the ASL flashback.

[tardy merlin]

There's a great scene right before where Ace seems like he's about to be dumb but you see he's only paying respect before respecting his sacrifice and retreating with everyone.

But that is all thrown away when Ace becomes Marty mcfly with no ability to understand context once you tell his trigger phrase. And he does the opposite of the previous scene, attacking Akainu while everyone is telling its a bad idea and to continue escaping.

I dont the scene with Akainu worked at all because it is all dumbness. He just made an exchange with Whitebeard about respecting his sacrifice and continue to escape. But then stops and refuse to listen to all the people that sacrifice for him. I'm sure Oda intented it to be about how Ace is a great loving song but all it does is make Ace spit in the face of Whitebeard and his brothers that sacrifice so much.

Ace issues works when he doesnt flee because of who he has behind him. And in most situation he is trying to be a shield to people he loves. Like Sabo and Luffy in the flashback or his crew against whitebeard.

[hot bloom]

Anyways the point I'm trying to make is Ace was always more of an emotionally driven person than a calculative . Now the merits and demerits of it would vary depending on the outcome. If ace managed to capture Blackbeard we probably would have been singing praise of Ace's valiance.
But unfortunately things didn't turn out that way . There were too many variables Ace never stopped to think about . And from there we do know that he never really cares that much about his own safety.

Now at marineford ace's decision to go back is very emotionally driven that's for sure . But do we have enough evidence that it's against his personality that we have seen so far ? Ace perhaps truly did believe that he could beat akainu in a 1v1 . So even though immature , I don't really think going back was really deviating from ace's character in any way

[hot bloom]

We do know that he doesn't like his own father at all before marineford though. So although extra context is needed for that scene during war , it's not really out of the blue

[devout galleon]

No it’s not out of the blue, but it’s not enough to justify anything

[hot bloom]

It's not justifiable. But it's not against his character either.

[visual flame]

And that's why it's such a torn subject, since we do get some of it sprinkled here and there, but the real difference doesn't hit until the flashback, so you're left trying to justify what little characterization he had beforehand, but I can definitely see the reasoning there. His actions were definitely stupid, regardless of which side of the fence you sit on. They weren't against his character, but it did act to exemplify his hot-headed personality to the extreme in favor of an easier time writing his death. I think to me it boils down to whether you buy his actions after Akainu started talking badly about his father figure, who Ace had a good portion of his arc focused on in Marineford.

[pine quartz]

I dont think Ace having the ability to beat Akainu should be the question, its more so the fact for the second time he couldnt swallow his own pride and listen to his Captain.

[hot bloom]

He would never swallow his pride

[pine quartz]

I think the bar in Jaya is a perfect example on how one should listen to their captain even if they may or may not think its the right thing to do

[tribal leaf]

I think ace did what any strawhat would do in the same situation

[hot bloom]

Ussop? Anyways not the topic

[raw phoenix]

Even luffy was smart enough and said everyone to run away from kizaru in sabaody

[rancid flume]

Ace definitely acted irrationally during events at Marineford, overconfident in front of Admirals, even if he would have a powerful Haki by his learnings being a Whitebeard Pirate, the ending for that moment would have been the same.

[devout galleon]

I mean to be fair, I think it was done on purpose to have us realize after the flashback that “oh yeah it makes much more sense now for why ace acted that way back then.” The in-depth justification was held off on purpose I believe

[clear zenith]

I think ace’s arrogance started when white beard told him to let black beard go and ace just kept chasing, started the fight with black beard and didn’t run away when he realized he was overwhelmed, and of course the scene right before he dies when akainu goaded him. He was definitely a hot head

[visual flame]

The flashback being done before Marineford/during would've stopped the momentum and/or made the events of Marineford more understanding, but also a lot less shocking in some aspects, like Ace's death. There feels like a lot of set-up, which you know the payoff for, and it just adds to the existing narrative we'd been served already, but putting all that before gives us justification and... really, not too much else. I like they chose to do the ASL flashback after, but I understand people's issues with the context behind Ace too

[devout galleon]

No yeah I agree with all of that, which again is why this prompt still confuses me a little. Ace was underdeveloped for a reason, on purpose. I don’t quite see what there is to argue I guess

[pine quartz]

I think he was always a hot head, at the start of MF we found out the whole reason he was on WBs crew was cos he was an overconfident rookie that tried to kill WB

[devout galleon]

@steel island in case a mediator didn’t see this idk 👀

[steel island]

nice nice

you can ping the debate mediator role whenever there's a long response

[devout galleon]

Ping all of them

[steel island]

There's only like 3 or 4 of us lol

Or you can just ping bean this time because he wrote up the post

[clear zenith]

True I forgot about that one

[jolly obsidian]

Ace is to be blamed

[fleet garden]

Ace is the definition of well intentioned but oh so misguided in execution

[desert wyvern]

This an argument for pins?

[visual flame]

yeah sure, go for it

[desert wyvern]

Was this for or against?

[visual flame]

It was for

[desert wyvern]

**Remember, ping me to pin your full argument posts **

[river jackal]

Ace's actions were a justifiable character 'flaw' if that's what we'll call it for now. Ace fought because he fully believed in his family, namely for Whitebeard but it was shown in the end that he fought for his entire family. Even though Luffy wasn't a part of the Whitebeard Pirates, Ace fought on behalf of his brother. He truly believed in WB and his ability to become the Pirate King and Ace aimed to see that through. He also felt the same way with Luffy, as we heard during what would prove to be some of Ace's final words. He believed Luffy would achieve his dream. Ace barely had anything in the tank, in fact, according to his Vivre Card he was close to death if not surviving out of pure will I would imagine, but he fought with nothing but his will to survive. He honored his parent, WB, and would not allow Admiral Akainu to even throw an insult at him without consequence. Ace's motives to enter the fight were admirable. The fight wasn't finished, and the war wasn't finished. WB knew this. Ace knew this. There was more to settle before escape, even if Ace had little to nothing to give in the effort he still stepped forward and died defending his pops. As feeble as he was at that moment in time, during that moment in war, he still fought as fiercely as a top rank pirate of the sea. This was after being tortured and isolated for some time on the most inhumane level in the most inhumane prison there is, with no hope. Ace was nearly dead, holding on by a string yet he still fought. He could have survived or he could have died the same if he tried to flee as WB ordered him to, but he lived his final moments standing for something. Fighting for his family's sake. His actions didn't lead to victory in the Paramount War, but they would ultimately pave the way. The strongest pirates in One Piece fight for their friends and crew no matter what. Ace was no exception, he died fighting for those he believed in no matter the cost

@desert wyvern

[gentle bluff]

isn't this channel for serious discussion?

[desert wyvern]

Yes, it is.

@wraith ocean If you aren't making a serious post, please don't message here.

[tardy merlin]

I could buy it Ace didnt just say goodbye to whitebeard and acknowledge and accept his sacrifice. Because once you have you have acknowledge Whitebeard sacrifice and still turn then its not him not just him acting impulsively. Its him disregarding the sacrifice.

And to disregard the sacrifice he would need a very strong reason. Maybe something like Akainu shove his hand in Whitebeard chest and he yells in pain and Ace cant take his protector being in pain for him. An enemy bad mouthing his opponent wouldnt be it.

[zinc sandal]

@dry bison This channel is for a specific topic please ask questions like that in other channels

[white cradle]

it depends on what's considered "justifiable"

[golden bison]

what’s the topic bro

[rare lantern]

It's pinned

[stable sierra]

ye ace was a bit of numpty

[storm pasture]

i don't even remember what ace irrationable actions are

[golden bison]

well, wouldn’t it be justified considering ace looked up to whitebeard, a man that would never run away from a fight, it would make sense for him to copy his philosophy and not run away from akainu

[stable sierra]

wb sacrificed himself and his repitation and like 50% of his crew for ace

[golden bison]

because wb believes in family, whitebeard considers ace and all his crew as his own children, and given the seriousness of the situation, it would make sense that whitebeard needed all forces to rescue his “son”

[devout galleon]

Over such a small taunt like that? No way.

[stable sierra]

plus wbs final oder was to leave marineford alive and rejoin in the new world, so not only did he betray that he also got himself killed

[golden bison]

it feels like whitebeard’s main dream was to have a family, i don’t think it mainly revolves around being the pirate king, which is why he cared so much about rescuing his son

[white cradle]

to me this debate centers around on whether or not you think that impulsiveness is actually a character flaw or not

[rare lantern]

Going after Blackbeard, taking him on, getting captured, getting saved but then dying

Or rather, Ace fell for Akainu's provocation

[golden bison]

given the circumstances, whitebeard had only 2 options, let his “son” die, or use all forces to rescue him, there’s no way whitebeard could’ve saved ace alone, for a man that cares about his family the most, it’s pretty clear he only had one option

[white cradle]

for example, Sanji not kicking women and not using his hands to fight is not a character flaw, while Sanji being a pervert is a character flaw

[golden bison]

it is indeed a massive character flaw, impulsiveness is what got ace killed and made him a pretty irritable character to me

[white cradle]

so to me the center of this is whether or not Ace being impulsive is a character flaw or is it just his core ideals

if it's a character flaw then i don't think it needs to be justifiable

[golden bison]

it feels like oda needed a reason to kill off ace as a plot device

[white cradle]

Sanji is a pervert, Luffy is dumb, Zoro always gets lost and Ace acts impulsively

i think we're either shown or hear mention of him picking fights with people who talked shit about Roger iirc

he also did this, so i wouldn't say it's just a reason to kill off Ace, it's just a part of his character

[rare lantern]

Yeah

Ace wasn't out of character

[white cradle]

anyway i think that the impulsiveness that got him killed is not part of his ideals, since we do see that he knows to avoid unnescessary conflict

[rare lantern]

I think we just needed more justification for him in the actual manga

[white cradle]

so it's a character flaw that i don't think has or needs justification

[rare lantern]

That's fair

[white cradle]

case and point, he didn't get into a fight after dine-and-dashing in Drum Island, he avoided conflict with Smoker because he knew it would take long, he disguised himself to infiltrate the marine base to deliver the letter instead of going in violently

i don't know how to put all of my thoughts in a single paragraph to be pinned

[devout galleon]

Is this alone enough to justify the flaw in and of itself? Punching a random marine for a disrespectful comment isn’t the same as fighting an admiral for a “your dad” comment and putting your entire team at risk. With the ASL flashback, yeah it absolutely does but without I can’t say it is.

[white cradle]

what do you mean by justify

if justify is making it seem logical then it obviously doesn't do it because it's a fully emotional decision

but if it means making it seem something Ace would do then blowing his cover for a completely random comment after going through the trouble of getting a disguise to infiltrate the base and deliver the message feels like enough precedent to me

+we know he wouldn't care if it's and admiral if he got mad because...

anyone would get mad at someone insulting their caring loving dad but Ace is the type that would pick a fight and wouldn't mind dying because of it

it's not a smart mentality and is probably not considering the feelings of the people who don't want you to die but that's what makes it a character flaw

[rare lantern]

Please read the channel description

This is a channel to discuss the current topic given at the top, not anything else

[desert wyvern]

You can compile everything you'd said into one single post if you'd like, there's no length standard but a well thought out single post argument is preferable

[white cradle]

i don't really even know to which side my arguments would go

[desert wyvern]

That's okay too, hash it out and shoot me a ping when you're ready to throw it down

[rare lantern]

Gonna make a big post when I can, just need to get my thoughts sorted and format better, I'll let you know when Bean

My stance is NO

[clear zenith]

ace was justified

[pine wren]

ace was justified

[boreal cave]

ace wasn't justified

[white cradle]

I think my stance on this topic would be best put as neutral, Ace's impulsiveness is a character flaw that is not rationally justified but it doesn't need to be, however it is something that makes sense for the character, as in, putting himself in danger because of someone insulting Whitebeard is something Ace would do, as he does it two times before the event with Akainu.
Ace in the story is our introduction to the Whitebeard pirates' traditions and it's likely that the tradition of enacting revenge on anyone who messes with a member of the family has fueled the fire of Ace's impulsiveness.
This intensification of his nature, combined with him still being in awe of Whitebeard's sacrifice, the little value he gives to his own life, his ideals of "bowing down to power is not a lifestyle worth living" is what lead him to picking up a fight with an admiral over an insult.
It was neither the smart or the right idea, with all his brothers telling him to not listen to Akainu and keep going. Ace knows it's not what he should be doing but for him it doesn't matter because he'd rather die here than live and regret not standing up for his father in his final moments.

@desert wyvern i don't know if i expressed myself in the best way i could but i think i did okay

[desert wyvern]

Can I place this under a yes?

It seems to lean more so in that direction

[weary abyss]

i also feel like that would go under yes

[clear zenith]

dnc

[white cradle]

i don't know what's that supposed to mean

[white cradle]

i think of it as neutral because i depends on what exactly "justifiable" is in this question

[desert wyvern]

I'd rather have a yes/no if we're going to grab a pin

[white cradle]

like i think what Ace did was a really dumb move but i think that's kinda of the point?

[desert wyvern]

That's fair, but the discussion is whether or not that point is something you could've seen coming and could reconcile as "Yeah, that's something Ace would do" before the flashback that tells us how irrational he is

[white cradle]

if it is about seeing it coming i think it's a yes then

we have in marineford Ace freaking out in the flashback and going after Blackbeard followed by him saying in the present that they should've let the consequences fall on him and later that he doesn't care whether he lives or dies here anymore, and before marineford we have him going through the trouble of infiltrating a marine base only to break disguise because of what was probably way less shittalking than Akainu did

what you couldn't have seen coming is whether or not he'd learn from his mistakes

which would probably lean to "no he won't learn from his mistakes" if you take in consideration that he doesn't regret anything

[desert wyvern]

@next brook That's not what this channel is for. Please read the channel description. It says READ THIS at the top.

[gaunt rover]

[coral jasper]

Not only did he get himself killed, but whitebeard and a lot of people to. Though he did not account for his defeat in the hands of his own subordinate whom he himself captained, he should've realised the risk he was putting his whole crew in my jeopardizing himself

[weary abyss]

The latter

[gaunt rover]

Ace was heck strong, but when we discuss about him is most on psychological topic, so this unbalance in tant what matters more to the character, imo, is a flaw, he was mind weak to the top tiers, he should chose go out with luffy and not dying defendin any father figure, that is his character and is totally subjective say what it is, but just on my humble opinion, nay it wasn't justifiable, Ussop would shut him up to think about living, like he did on several ocassion with luffy while giving up, tho, Ace haven't a Ussop figure whatsoever, he has chosen to die along his father instead of living for his brother, so he takes a very poor personal decition, but mayhaps great writing stuff by Oda

[thin girder]

He wasn’t very developed as a character until marineford however I do think it makes sense. We always see Ace as a character that is solely ruled by emotion and impulse. We’re introduced to this kind of behavior the second we meet him in Alabasta in the restaurant scene. Not to mention, fire is associated with passion and rage in one piece. Ace’s actions in marineford are certainly justified with how he’s been written in the past, I don’t see much contradiction here. Horrible decision for a person to make in a logical point of view. But at that moment, it was the most “Ace” thing he could have done. Ace isn’t my favorite character nor did I think he was personally written very well. His death hit me harder due to luffy’s outbreak then his actual death, and I feel this was his role in the story. With all this being said, despite Ace not being a particularly deep character, his actions in marineford are consistent and justified with how he was written throughout the series prior.

[willow hare]

I've been thinking about this, but I think this is a justifiable character flaw without the context/characterisation given by the ASL flashback. A common misconception I'm seeing is the sentiment that the reason ace died was because of him turning back and confronting Akainu, which is wrong. Rather, it was because luffy had reached his limit; so due to the way the story is written, it's characterised as Luffy's inherent flaw of being too weak (obviously later seen with the aftermath of the paramount war) at that time as opposed to being something that seems intentionally written as ace's hubris.

It feels like to me that Oda's intention isn't that ace made the wrong decision ultimately; although he would still be alive if he had ran, Ace accomplished everything he sought out to do, in his dying words he reconfirmed that there was one last thing he regretted and it was not being able to see luffy "see his dream through to the end".

Whilst this is something that whilst may gain greater characterisation with the advent of discovering what I will call Luffy's "true dream" in the ASL flashback, it is still something that alludes towards it prior to the events of the ASL flashback, and it's an amazing demonstration of ace's role/purpose in the story, portrayed convincingly with his character and elaborated on later. It is for these reasons I believe it's a justifiable character flaw.

[weary abyss]

That’s really good, macks

[willow hare]

ty

[willow hare]

<@&884917716333506621>

(though I haven't really addressed arguments from the opposing side of this debate because nobody who believes that has made their posts yet )

[kind flint]

This Debate is not going to end when no one is on the opposing side right?

[gaunt rover]

what is the opposing side?

[spring heron]

Check the pins

[gaunt rover]

"were his irrational actions during Marineford a justifiable character flaw?" i say yes is a flaw, it wasn't justifiable

[midnight shadow]

IMO of course they were justifiable. Ace had huge daddy issues while growing and whitebeard fixed them so Ace came to respect and love WB more than others did, I think.

When BB, from the division Ace was responsible for, killed Thatch, he put a big stain on WB which IMO anyone in Ace's shoes would do the same as Ace did by going after BB. And when Ace found BB he learned the BB was going after Luffy so in that momment there was no going back for Ace.

All of these show how much Ace cares for the people he loves. So when Akainu provoked him how was he supposed to just walk away from someone who insulted the man he considers his father and has huge respect for. In the end we see how much he is willing to do for the people he loves when he sacrifices himself to save Luffy.

Ace cared more about WB than his own life which why when they told him not to go after BB because it would be dangerous he just didn't care since his life comes second to WB. Can you imagine Ace staying and not going after BB, it would feel out of character. IMO the same can be said about akainu's provocations.

[hexed pelican]

Oh

[visual flame]

really solid post, macks. I do think Luffy's characterization was definitely reinforced very well by Ace's death, but I still believe Ace was ultimately responsible for his own death, as he was the one taken in by Akainu's speech (which I still think was justified). At the end of the day, it was Luffy who froze up and lost their brother because of their moment of weakness, but Ace stopping were what led to Luffy's moment of weakness happening in the first place. I guess it's fair to blame both parties here, but I wouldn't chalk it up to just Ace or Luffy's actions alone. They both were very well characterized through their flaws and both suffered great loss because of that weakness. regardless of the debate though, this scene was just really well written, ty for the illustrations too, helped a lot

Every action in this situation is a contributor to blame, not one sole reason alone, so I don't think it's wrong to assume Ace confronting Akainu was the reason he lost. Ultimately, yeah, Luffy was the nail in the coffin, but Ace didn't help his case by being drawn in and stopping when they had a good chance to run and get out of there - but thanks for the read, it was really good

[willow hare]

oh for sure, at no point did I intend to portray that ace didn't die because he ran back (i think in my messages i conflict myself on this though ), it's just luffy's moment of weakness that caused ace to jump out in front.

[desert wyvern]

A common misconception I'm seeing is the sentiment that the reason ace died was because of him turning back and confronting Akainu, which is wrong. Rather, it was because luffy had reached his limit; so due to the way the story is written, it's characterised as Luffy's inherent flaw of being too weak (obviously later seen with the aftermath of the paramount war) at that time as opposed to being something that seems intentionally written as ace's hubris.

Rebuttal to this, it's not a misconception. Ace did die because of attempting to save Luffy, but his mistake was allowing the situation to take place at all. Ace dies because he places Luffy in a situation where he can be killed and makes up for it by taking the blow instead. The story most definitely didn't present it as a matter of Luffy's weakness being the key, it was entirely Ace's temperament that lead to it, to the point where we even have a scene of Ace having to wrench himself out of someone's grip just to go fight.

This in stark contrast to everything he'd said in the war up until that point, including just a chapter before where he's freed and states he wouldn't waste anyone's sacrifice.

[willow hare]

Even ace said that he had no regrets though, his only regrets being not being able to see Luffy's dream out to it's end - i find it hard to see it in a way where Luffy's weakness isn't a key thing or main point here due to the nature of how it characterises luffy as being ultimately weak (reinforced by post-marineford @ amazon lily w/ jinbei, i think it was chapter 582) I acknowledge that ace wouldn't have died if he continued running, and yes that is his hubris ultimately, but I don't think it was the intention of oda to portray this hot-headedness as a negative characteristic and to me because of luffy's characterisation with it, it feels very justified.

[desert wyvern]

It was very much Oda's intention to portray him that way, that's why Luffy's weakness is never focused on until after the arc. Luffy actually freed Ace is the thing, it was never a struggle that he couldn't overcome despite how weak he felt. Ace went out of his way, on the other hand, to pick a fight he couldn't win out of pure anger which resulted in Luffy being placed in a position to die and Ace having to swoop in to save him.

[willow hare]

Luffy's weakness is highlighted after ace's death though, I think it's jinbe or maybe law that mentions luffy has been frozen in a mental state and is really vulnerable. I'm not doubting oda wanted to show ace was upset, I just don't think he wanted it to be taken as an inherently negative characteristic. (It was very emotional for ace as well- having to be chained up as other people save him and then when he's set free, his 'father', sacrificing himself for his safety is insulted) I would consider a "negative" characteristic something that didn't feel natural for the character or was generally an uncool/shitty thing to do; Ace wasn't exactly noble for defending whitebeard against akainu, but I do think the aspects oda wanted to highlight specifically as negative were akainu's bitchy-ness provoking of ace and luffy's weakness.

Oh yeah- and luffy's weakness is something that's actually highlighted moments before ace's death as well

Furthermore, I would argue that luffy wasn't really put in a position of danger due to ace, more that akainu targeted luffy specifically knowing that ace would retaliate and get hit; which is something that is left vague because how far luffy was from ace is essentially unknown until these moments. (but i dont think its safe to assume luffy just followed ace) ace was the #1 priority here, makes less sense to go for luffy over him, although its true akainu wanted them both to be captured.

[desert wyvern]

I've got a write up coming, but that's not the same weakness Luffy's talking about. That was going to happen pretty much no matter what, his body was basically still dying from Impel Down.

Furthermore, I would argue that luffy wasn't really put in a position of danger due to ace,

But he was, the only reason they're still there is because Ace stops to fight.

[willow hare]

ace is depicted not close to anyone here, and in the panel i posted above, it shows akainu dashing over to luffy

unless we're assuming luffy followed ace in, it was akainu's deliberate choice to go after luffy here, regardless of whether ace retaliated

[white cradle]

but Ace stopping to argue with Akainu is what made everyone else stop running as well

and when everyone stops running it's real easier to target someone who has a moment of weakness

[willow hare]

that's true.

[white cradle]

if they where running when Luffy fell someone could've easily grabbed him and kept running, but since they weren't going anywhere he was just a target

[willow hare]

This is still caused by luffy's inherent weakness though. Luffy was subject to minus 10 years off his lifespan and had drugs jacked into him throughout marineford, this is the moment the side affects kick in. If luffy had been strong enough to defeat magellan, this wouldn't have been a necessary thing, and its likely luffy could have dodged akainu's magma in time.

[white cradle]

Luffy wouldn't even be there if Ace hadn't got captured by impulsively going after Blackbeard

[desert wyvern]

Ace is right next to a crowd of people there

They're just behind some smoke

[desert wyvern]

While this is true, it's an unreasonable thing to put on him. He was poisoned, not overpowered.

[willow hare]

but luffy is where?

[desert wyvern]

Luffy would've been a few feet behind him there

Of course we don't get anyone else though, they are surrounded by dozens of people, but the panel was supposed to single those two out

[white cradle]

we know people where right rhere

[desert wyvern]

We can also actually see here, Ace doesn't move, Akainu only goes maybe a few feet to his other side at best

That's how close Luffy was, that Ace was still on the ground as Akainu flew over and only had to turn his body slightly

[white cradle]

and Luffy was right besides him in the page prior

[desert wyvern]

They were close enough that at least one person attempted to physically pull him away yeh

[white cradle]

there's just a lot of fire and smoke around because both Akainu and Ace have just used their powers

while it's not untrue that Ace would possibly survive if Luffy was stronger it's unfair to blame it on Luffy instead of Ace's recklessness

[willow hare]

but it wasn't just circumstance that the side affects of the drugs kicked in at that very moment, it was the continual strain his body went through during the war that culminated in this moment where he was at his absolute limit

sorry for the delayed response - bad time for my laptop's wifi to cut out

[willow hare]

gotcha, I can understand this yeah.

[clear zenith]

ace genuinly killed himself

[desert wyvern]

So, Ace's decisions at Marineford were not justified by what we'd been given of his character up until that point.
When Ace was introduced fully in Alabasta, we're shown that he's not only the more mature brother, but is willing to make responsible decisions in basically everything he did. When faced with having to fight an enemy that he should have been able to defeat, he instead chooses to run away and avoid the conflict despite that person actively hunting down Luffy.

https://i.imgur.com/yVE7nqs.png
https://i.imgur.com/NjeUEhp.png
When the crew meets him, they're basically shown the more serious, grown up version of Luffy that they never thought they'd meet, implying how much more reasonable he was. He was shown a competent planner enough to give Luffy a vivre card for the sake of the future, and generally by his higher position in a legendary crew.

https://i.imgur.com/qiwM4Xy.png

We next see Ace when he runs into Buggy, and even when hearing about how Alvida wanted to capture Luffy, he doesn't go to any crazy lengths or starts any kind of fight. He even offers to help while eating all of their food.
https://i.imgur.com/U3Ybkep.png

Next we see Ace is during his Great Blackbeard Search cover story, which is actually the first time we get to see any of his temper in action. And even in this, the worst he does is blow his cover in a marine base that couldn't hurt him at all because someone insulted Whitebeard.
We do see, once the war starts, how Ace basically loses his mind and goes after Blackbeard. But, this is reasonable. It was not only a rule on their ship, to the point where Whitebeard has to tell him this will be an exception, but Blackbeard was his subordinate. This outburst is perfectly in line with any character, let alone Ace.
https://i.imgur.com/euEzbjS.png

The stark contrast in his attitude becomes worse during Marineford. Throughout the war, Ace talks about how much it means to him that everyone is coming to fight for him, how much he hates that they're dying and how he isn't even sure if he should still be alive, and resolves multiple times to not waste their sacrifice and not fight anyone coming to save him.
https://i.imgur.com/gu5nvZT.png
https://i.imgur.com/IKzF2eI.png
There are more than a couple examples of this, but I didn't want to find the panels of Ace crying on the stand as he watches and swears to let everyone save him if they can because of their sacrifices. But this all happens only for him to actually wrench himself away from someone's grip and ignoring a crowd of people, all of whom had bled plenty just to get him to the point where they get to pull him away, screaming at him to keep running and not to fight. If this were Ace alone, there would be a more acceptable argument for it in my eyes, but this wasn't just his heart beating in his own ears with no other voices up. He acknowledges everyone around him and actively turns them away because Akainu insulted Whitebeard.
https://i.imgur.com/Y6rsdJQ.png

In conclusion, because of not only the complete lack of set up for his hardcore tunnel vision, but also due to him actively acknowledging all of these feelings being mistakes, I will firmly say that Ace's actions during Marineford were not foreshadowed as a possibility through his character development. We're given better explanation for it later when he's directly compared to Roger, who was characterized as devastatingly temperamental and potentially at times almost fatally tunnel visioned when upset. After that, it makes more sense, but Ace's temper being that far gone, such that he would see his friends and family actively dying, acknowledge it directly and swear not to invalidate their sacrifice, and still be upset by someone's words and not their actions to the point of invalidating the entire war was not something that would have made sense to his character before the ASL flashback, and a little more explanation to Roger's character as well through it.
tl;dr Ace's character was not set up to be someone who would place his own temper over the lives, safety, pride and respect of his friends and family until the ASL flashback.

Be sure to ping me to pin your argument if you've made one

[frail harness]

@desert wyvern I disagree with your premise on the basis that it's not a wild character turn/out of character for a character to do something when you don't have full context on that character in the first place. Yes, the justification/context was given after the fact but it's clearly shown Ace was in fact always that way.

WE just didnt see him act that way because we didnt spend significant time with him to see it (I mean "we" both as in the SH's and us as readers). The moments that you're pointing to could easily be considered outliers/exceptions of Ace being more level-headed as opposed to his normal/infamous disposition.

Lastly, we all know Oda matches the Devil Fruit abilities of a character with their personality type so it wouldnt make sense in the context of how Oda treats pretty much every other character for the character with the Flare-Flare Fruit to be known for being calm & mature.

[desert wyvern]

WE just didnt see him act that way because we didnt spend significant time with him to see it

This is the premise of the debate. Whether or not his actions before the ASL flashback were justified based on the information we had before they happened.

[frail harness]

That's just it though, I dont think it's a fair criticism to say it was out of character of him to do when we didnt really know his character.

[desert wyvern]

Lastly, we all know Oda matches the Devil Fruit abilities of a character with their personality type

This isn't really a premise we can support. Sabo doesn't have Ace's disposition, Aokiji isn't a cold individual and Kizaru takes everything pretty slowly. Not every fruit matches personality types, but even so, that's not really a support since it's not an across the board thing.

[desert wyvern]

But that's the point, we don't know his character. So where is the justification outside of the ASL flashback?

What you're saying here is helping to validate my argument, you're absolutely right that we aren't given this part of his character until the ASL flashback. That's why the debate is about if what he did was a justified character flaw based on the development Ace had gotten up until that point in the series.

We know it's right now because of the ASL flashback further explaining it and even comparing him directly to Roger, but that's not really the topic

[frail harness]

Sabo is an outlier for obvious reasons. Kizaru is an obvious intentional inversion, & Aokiji's fruit is the "Chill-Chill" Fruit and he is, in fact, chill af. It tracks IMO but I do understand what you're saying.

[frail harness]

I get it. Again, I dont think it's a fair criticism to begin with, but to keep with the premise wouldnt the fact that literal the whole time we were exposed to him pre-ASL he was on a revenge mission be the evidence you're asking for? Yeah, it was supposedly a rule of the crew to retaliate in that situation, but going off entirely on his own to chase down 1 guy & his whole crew instead of co-ordinated with his fleet seems very reckless & hot-headed for a person in his position.

Oden would never.

[desert wyvern]

Oden does it literally the moment he gets back to Wano.

[frail harness]

Oden wasn't 2nd Division Captain of a whole pirate fleet when he got back to Wano, he quit being a pirate first before he did his dumb shit lol

[desert wyvern]

Even while he was the 2nd division captain, he actually did the same thing. They had to chase after Oden constantly.

In fact, he references his personality hadn't changed after coming back since the days in his youth.

[frail harness]

You know, thinking back on it you're actually right so I'll concede on the Oden point. It actually seems very intentional the WB's 2nd Div. Commander was always one to run off regardless of who it was, in contrast to hyper-loyal Marco.

Still think my point about Ace stands though

[river jackal]

Ace is the ultimate family-oriented pirate. Just like WB. In fact, Ace went against WB’s better judgement and tracked down Blackbeard of all people to make him pay for Thatch’s murder / life being taken from him. Think about how much resolve and commitment it would take to defy WB and his better judgement as a son for a few moments

Ace saw all his family getting severely wounded and killed in the War of the Best at Marineford, he was weakened and tortured probably beyond measure, and his life was hanging by a thread. He was in no condition to fight, to make decisions at all really. He needed most of all time to heal but he was freed by Luffy and WB and into the chaos of the war he went. And he fought for his family in the end. He couldn’t allow the toughest enemy to defy the one who set out and planned to save him. WB waged war. He prepared for war. He was willing to go to war to save one son’s life. And all Ace’s brothers and sisters were all in to save Ace. Ace tried to fight for his family in anyway he could. We already know that he is willing to face a man WB of all people was hesitant to track down. Ace had the most fight in him so to me his actions lined up with the kind of pirate I believed him to be

[river jackal]

Ace's love for his family was just as great as Whitebeard's was, if you can believe that. He gave his life in an instant for his younger brother. He was willing to give his life to chase down Thatch's murderer knowing full well how dangerous Blackbeard was. He had to have known. If Whitebeard of all people was hesitant to go after BB and kill him for his mistakes then that alone is telling Ace how powerful BB is. Ace didn't care, he'd fight anybody for wronging his family. He fought Jinbe for 5 days straight ffs. He went looking to pick a fight with Kaido (but this is past ASL flashbacks) but we know that it was never out of character for Ace to go searching for the toughest pirates. For all we know, Ace could have been on the brink of defeating BB in his fight, and potentially it was BB's crew that stepped in and stopped him. It probably wasn't a fair fight

[desert wyvern]

He was willing to give his life to chase down Thatch's murderer knowing full well how dangerous Blackbeard was.

They had no idea at all how dangerous Blackbeard was. That was Blackbeard's whole reason for being in Whitebeard's crew and never gaining a bounty.

For all we know, Ace could have been on the brink of defeating BB in his fight, and potentially it was BB's crew that stepped in and stopped him.

I don't think this is something that can be remotely supported. Blackbeard's crew couldn't hurt Ace, how could they help him?

[river jackal]

Wait, before I reply @desert wyvern how did you quote only a portion of my message on discord? How do I do that as well?

[desert wyvern]

Use > in your message and put a space after it.

But it has to be the first thing in your message, so it'll come up as :

this

this is how you'd type it, just add the space

[river jackal]

They had no idea at all how dangerous Blackbeard was. That was Blackbeard's whole reason for being in Whitebeard's crew and never gaining a bounty.
They did have something to go by. It was Whitebeards clear hesitance. He could measure his enemies for certain, WB could size up anyone. That alone should have given Ace an indication of what kind of enemy he was about to get tangled with. Plus, Ace knew him well being his commander. Only as well as BB could have lead him on to know, however.

[desert wyvern]

No, no one knew his power and Ace didn't know him well at all. That was why everything he did was such a shock. Whitebeard was hesitant, but it was never because of Blackbeard's power, it was his daring.

And beyond all that, they had no idea what the Yami Yami fruit was or what it could do. Ace went into that entire thing blind, assuming he'd be able to kill someone who was his subordinate based solely on that information.

[quick ocean]

shanks was the one who told wb to tell ace to stop searching for blackbeard since he was too dangerous iirc. Whitebeard kind of ignored him/ downplayed blackbeard

[river jackal]

This can't be true bean, only because Whitebeard is Whitebeard - if you understand where I'm going with this. This is Whitebeard we're talking about, the guy who broke even with Roger every time they fought. What in the world could stop this monster besides an enemy he saw as something unimaginably dangerous. Think about that, he battled Gol D. Roger of all people, yet he's not willing to go after Blackbeard who just murdered his own son on his own ship? Something's not adding up. Like I said, Whitebeard can size up his opponents like no other. He knew BB was an exception otherwise he would have tracked him down and murdered him as his punishment

[desert wyvern]

They literally didn't know the power he had anymore, he didn't have the Yami Yami while sailing with them.

We can't say "It was Whitebeard he had to know" when the entire point was Blackbeard was hiding both his true strength and had just gained a massive power with his fruit. Whitebeard isn't Shyarly, he can't see the future that way.

[river jackal]

They didn't know the DF and he can't predict the future but this is a man who might as well be called the Pirate King and share the title with Roger himself if we're going to be honest with ourselves. Are you doubting his ability to see through an opponent? Nobody has defeated him save the Navy and Roger while he was with Rocks D. Xebec. He had to have known man, this is the only thing that could have provided such an extensive wait for something that should have been planned for from the start. Revenge. I don't think Whitebeard would delay unless he thought he couldn't win

[desert wyvern]

Are you doubting his ability to see through an opponent?

He can't see through someone who isn't there. He only ever had Blackbeard hiding his strength, and then getting a whole new power through the fruit that no one knew about. There really isn't any way to say Whitebeard knew when the entire point of Blackbeard's plot line with the crew was that no one knew, not even Whitebeard.

I don't think Whitebeard would delay unless he thought he couldn't win

He knew he could win. Blackbeard did, too. That was never the question, it was Ace deciding to go after him.

[river jackal]

He can't see through someone who isn't there. He only ever had Blackbeard hiding his strength, and then getting a whole new power through the fruit that no one knew about. There really isn't any way to say Whitebeard knew when the entire point of Blackbeard's plot line with the crew was that no one knew, not even Whitebeard.

I mean to say, that he as the Captain knows his men and knows them well. He may not know Blackbeard in full, but he knows him well enough to not underestimate the guy. Ace knew as well that BB was hiding his true nature and abilities. He called him out on the roof when he hunted him down for what would become their infamous duel. WB didn't have to know what BB was up to or his motives, but WB for certain knew that there was something seriously wrong with the picture. Again, how can a man who springs into action to fight Roger like it's fun just sit back after one of his own was murdered for a DF? That's completely against WB and what he stands for. If he knew he could defeat BB he would have went for it. I need to see some proof of him knowing he could defeat BB, because of what I know, he wasn't ready for such a feat and instead stalled. Or maybe Ace was simply too hasty in the matter, his mission to make BB pay

Ultimately, I think Ace was completely in character. He was always willing to fight. His goals were about as lofty as his brother's so it was inevitable that he would challenge anybody, at any place, at any time just like Luffy would. The only thing that can even give us the idea that there was a character flaw is the fact that he fought when he knew he wasn't ready to fight. He couldn't stop himself. But I think Ace was always that way. Imagine Roger being in such a position of weakness, if you can imagine such a scenario. I'm willing to bet that Roger would have fought the same. It's in Ace's blood

[visual flame]

I think the point of Whitebeard's quote of hesitance was referring to the fact that the circumstances were strange, and that it may be dangerous to go after them, but as bean said, there's no way he would have known about the Yami Yami or what threat Blackbeard pose, only that it was 'strange' given what Blackbeard had done prior. Whitebeard is ultimately a man of family, and he highlights what Blackbeard did was despicable, but he in this instance is painted as more level-headed and patient than Ace was. To extrapolate this information a bit, we don't know why Whitebeard didn't chase Blackbeard down after he stole Thatch's fruit, but it's only fair to assume he would've gone after them eventually. It was a strange series of circumstances that Whitebeard found suspicious and didn't think was a good idea to push on at the time. That's how I interpreted it but could be wrong, love the debate btw

[desert wyvern]

@clear zenith Go ahead and read the channel description please.

[clear zenith]

Is this not the debate arena?

[desert wyvern]

Please read the channel description.

[supple canyon]

I feel what ace did in marineford was absolutely not a flaw in his character or whatever....from ASL flash back we can clearly see that those brothers are independent and live according to what they feel right.
When ace felt the insult from akainu to his father, he did what he had to do , as a proud son he stood against it , theres no flaw in fighting for ur father , is it?
And he has achieved his dream of being a notorious pirate , obviously we have a whole war for him.....
I have thought about this a lot after marineford so i said too much ig..XD
<@&884917716333506621>

[river jackal]

This is only a guess but I figure WB knew he was bound to fuck BB up at some point in a clash, but unfortunately it ended up being in a situation where WB had to deal with the entirety of the Marines’ best forces and their backup (Shichibukai) + Pacifistas. He had his opportunity in the end but Blackbeard gonna Blackbeard. This is what I have to say to BB =

[rare lantern]

@wet palm Read the channel description please

[hybrid vine]

I debate this

[supple mortar]

what irrational actions, stopping and confronting akainu?

[rare lantern]

Yeah

Or any of his general hotheadedness

Like chasing after BB

[balmy osprey]

Not going to write up my thoughts on the debate, but I am supporting the side that his actions were not justified.

Putting this panel here that I believe helps support this notion in case anyone does want to build up their own argument

[soft nymph]

Opinions on Marco vs Katakuri

[supple mortar]

read channel description, this channel is for a specific debate

[elder pike]

All of his "cool older brother act" during that meeting becomes invalid when you know why he was there all alone in the first place. He is proud of his pops to a fault, hotheaded and out for revenge from the start. That was always big part of his actual personality and aligns well with how he acted during the Akainu taunt.
2 out of 3 outcomes would lead to putting his WB family and Luffy in danger(captured> marineford , Killed>Payback/revenge war) when he decided to chase after BB blindly when even WB was cautious.
It would be out of character if he didn't turn around in his tortured body and mind state where he just lost his pops and many of his friends even if it meant more people would be in danger because of his actions AGAIN specially when few minutes ago he was all but ready to die.
His personality and mental state meant he was always gonna fall for it at that point.

[rare saffron]

we’re given the knowledge via internal dialogue from Shanks, that Roger would’ve done the same thing as Ace in that situation. he wouldn’t like it were he made aware, but Ace is his Farher’s son through and through. this isn’t a weakness, and it isn’t bad nor inherently idiotic either but rather it’s a sentiment of utmost purity. the willingness to put others above oneself in those few precious instances when it truly matters whether or not the afraid remain as just that, or become one of the brave.

[craggy delta]

Huh, so this channel is a thing. That's cool.

Also, Ace's actions were completely rational. Considering so many of WB's crew died to save one life in his eyes, that kind of burden is something that he couldn't bear and that he wouldn't want to wish upon anyone. Though if he were on the other side, he wouldn't hesitate to save a friend from the marine clutches even if it meant taking his crew straight into danger. While contradictory, that is rational in terms of what it means to be a person. People contradict themselves. But Ace's behavior especially towards Luffy was rational because he doesn't want his lil bro getting hurt over him.

[desert wyvern]

Also, Ace's actions were completely rational.

I believe that pretty much no matter what stance can be taken, this may be the only truly invalid one here. Ace's actions weren't rational from legitimately any angle you could possibly approach. Not when a crowd of people were yelling at him to not make his mistake, and one even tried to physically pull him away and he resisted.

[uncut vessel]

I think from aces POV it was totally rational. Bearing the weight that so many people gave their life for him to be rescued he HAD to do something about akainu shitting on WB. From the POV of everyone else at marineford it was totally irrational for the same reason it was rational for ace. So many people gave their life to save him and he just „throws“ it away bc of some words. Addition bc you guys were arguing whether WB and his crew knew if BB was hella strong: they offered him the position of 2nd division commander too or am I misremembering smth?

[desert wyvern]

Please stay on topic. This channel is not for casual conversation.

[rare lantern]

No, Ace’s irrational actions during Marineford were not a justifiable character flaw

1st Point: Lack of characterization

Apologies ahead of time if I don’t word this as well as I should’ve.

To support my stance, I will say that I think that Ace was severely lacking for me as a character in multiple aspects. First and foremost, the lack of screentime. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think you need a lot of screentime for a character to be good, relevant, interesting, or central to the story. But I do think when it comes to this series in particular, because of the grand scale of One Piece. Characters like Ace need to be more developed or compelling. The problem with this view is the placement. We understand that Ace is Luffy’s brother during his formal introduction, but we do not get anything more than a practical motivation. He is hunting/searching for a man named Blackbeard (Chapter 159 Page 15). He gives Luffy a Vivre Card, thanks his friends for taking care of his brother, and then he’s on his way. At this point, I think most people had a general likeness for the character but they wanted to see more before really getting sold on him, and eventually, they’d get their wish. The main issue for me stems from his hotheadedness being cemented over his potential dimensions so infrequently. By the time we get to know Ace more, he’s on his way to his deathbed.

We can say for sure that he was someone who was in-character for doing what he did. Chasing after Blackbeard is justified, we learn he wants to avenge one of his own “brothers” from his crew. Yet, we get Shanks establishing that this is not only a foolish choice but it will have immense consequences down the line (Chapter 434 Pages 12 - 15). I like this development and we understand Ace’s motivation now. But what needs to be established heavily, because it ultimately leads to his demise, is his decisiveness on his actions.

Now, for all intents and purposes, we get this reinforced throughout Marineford. Ace has never taken his biological family into account as something that has helped his life. If anything, he sees it as a burden because people hate him for being Roger’s son and this is why he looks at Whitebeard as a father figure or straight-up his dad as well as the rest of the crew as his family. Thatch was like a brother, as I said earlier; So when BB kills him it makes sense that Ace is taken aback by it, and without a second thought, he goes after him to avenge Thatch. However, my problem is this is the only side we see. Don’t get me wrong. We don’t need a giant elaborate piece of clarification on why Ace never questioned going after BB, never reasoned with any others about how risky/foolish it was, how it would affect others, or even just asking for backup. But to me, and this leans into my second point, when we see Ace in both Impel Down and Marineford, the guy is completely defeated. The story kind of makes him out to be this dude who was completely at fault for what he did and treats him as someone who really didn’t deserve to be saved when even he, himself, doesn’t even want to be.

2nd Point: The ends don’t justify the means

In a lot of ways, he’s got the same beats as Robin in that regard. Trapped between a life that has troubled them in the past only to end up on the short end of the stick. They become imprisoned, not valuing their lives as much as they should because they’re letting their pasts define them. However, the key difference is the structure surrounding Robin’s character development VS Ace’s character. We have way more time to see how her interactions with the crew are warranted because of the fact that she literally joins them and has teases about her real story sprinkled in over the course of various arcs prior to Water 7/Enies Lobby.

However, unlike Ace, we get to see sides of her that we had never seen or focused on before. The next time we see the guy after Alabasta is way later after Enies Lobby where he loses to Blackbeard (Chapter 440 Page 11). We get a little bit more dialogue here revealing that Blackbeard is actually after Luffy and Ace says this is just another reason to go after him. We already know that Ace isn’t going to let up, so when he inevitably loses, it’s not entirely unexpected. The problem is these are just tidbits. He really doesn’t get a major spotlight until Impel Down and I think it’s a bit of a detriment here. The only way this works for me is if we had more sides of the story. We already know Ace can be an “Act first, think later” kinda guy. But we don’t get enough justification for why he would need to act the way he does. As soon as he gets beaten and thrown in prison for execution, all of that bravado and ego that he had practically just disappears overnight (Chapter 529 Page 5). And in a way, it’s understandable because of the situation but I really don’t see how that can correlate to the most irrational decision he ever makes during the Summit War. That being falling for Akainu’s provoking words.

3rd/Last Point: Ace’s backstory was needed

To finalize, we understand his plight for wanting to go after Blackbeard, we understand it was foolish, we understand why Ace did it. His motivations and personality are clear. But beyond being Luffy’s brother and Roger’s son, we don’t really know Ace. We don’t get to see his goals and dreams until the flashback. Correct me if I’m wrong, but none of that was shown until ASL. So if we are to take his surface level appearance and presence, you could say that everything prior to the events surrounding made you as a viewer or reader feel emotionally tied or connected to him. It made sense for you that he would go against his own brother and crew’s wishes while trying to retreat. But to me, we didn’t get enough of that at all. We needed some reinforcement, some struggle or inclination that this was always Ace. Just a few chapters here or there about what he was like before he became a pirate or when he was on WB’s crew as a normal lackey. I think it really just comes down to the fact that most people aren’t saddened by Ace’s actions because they are compelled or emotionally attached to Ace as a character, they only felt sad because he was Luffy’s brother. That was all we really had and it pales in comparison to how the Straw Hats and antagonists in the series were fleshed out.

So no, I don’t think his actions work here as a justifiable character flaw when it is only used a couple times because that’s the only thing we ever see out of Ace. We never get other sides to him and we don’t even really understand him to the degree that we should. Especially when he is such a prominent character.

@desert wyvern

[rare lantern]

@merry flint Please read the channel description

[dreamy violet]

Considering Ace spent his whole life feeling like he didn't even deserve to be alive, and that his father was the worst scum on earth, its justifiable that he couldn't let an insult to Whitebeard go regardless of the consequences. To Ace, Whitebeard is his father and the only one who took him in regardless of his bloodline and gave him a home and family. Yeah sure he had Dadan and rhe bandits and even luffy, but I feel like Ace was waiting for the other shoe to drop, for everyone to suddenly learn the truth about Roger and abhor him like every person he's heard about Roger from. Whitebeard on the other hand, knew Roger, drank with Roger, and was rivals with him, and yet still chose to associate with Ace so that was definitely more impactful. Given this, it's not irritational in Ace's mind to turn back and defend the man who gave him an entire family and the feeling of belonging regardless of who birthed him, when everyone was screaming for him to not to. So honestly its both rational to him and a justifiable character flaw

[dark wedge]

Amazing explanation my G

[desert wyvern]

@lucid oasis Please read the channel description.

[desert wyvern]

@clear zenith Please read the channel description.

[rare lantern]

@paper tapir Please read the channel description

[paper tapir]

Where is that?

[rare lantern]

At the top

[desert wyvern]

If anyone needs a refresher

[glossy inlet]

where was this arena 5 years ago damn

[old sable]

I think people look at this debate in a really narrow way. Ace isn't supposed to be a fully fleshed out character, if we knew who he was, what his motivations were his character wouldn't work.

He's Luffy's big brother, he's supposed to be cool and strong and loved by everybody, somebody in all aspects better than Luffy. His whole point is to sacrifice himself for Luffy and die in his arms, we don't need to know why he wanted to be loved or why it was so hard for him to accept that he was so loved, we need to know that he loves Luffy and that Luffy loves him. The only reason Ace even wants to escape in the end is because Luffy came to save him. Ace has to die in a stupid hotheaded way because Luffy's big flaw is that he was too hotheaded and always biting off more than he can chew and Ace is ultimately a conduit for Luffy's growth, not a character who the readers are supposed to have a deep understanding of. The point of Ace's death for the reader is to feel sad because Luffy feels sad, it's not a failing of characterization, it's exactly how you're supposed to feel.

[weary harbor]

Goddamn boy you just changed the entire way I viewed Ace's death. I still feel it's kinda dumb but I'm less ticked off by it now.

However, I do still think Whitehead's death is better executed.

[frail bone]

So this is a bit of a paradox because you can compile all instances of Ace's actions and then spin the argument either way.

If you represent every action as a ratio of emotional to logical thought and plot the data, it's clear he is dealing with inner strife, being at times the responsible brother avoiding conflict but also at times embracing his cocky, passionate, hothead side. Pretty much all of these points are mixed as he still maintains enough logical contextual awareness such that even if he acts like an oaf, he still believes he can most likely get himself out of said situation.

The final data point where he takes his stance against Sakazuki's shit is the apex of the data set, you can see in his eyes that any mechanisms of rational thought have instantly vaporized and there is a complete lack of response to any sensory input whatsoever, physical touch & screams from his crew & brother. His mind is in full fight or flight lockdown and it's as if the only thing that has ever mattered in his life right now is the admiral in front of him.

Out of the events shown to the reader thus far, his head had never been locked up to that degree of awareness lapse, so one could say no, Oda's contextual logical leap regarding Ace's character flaw was too great and was therefore not justified, but at the same time, you can extrapolate from the data and argue that precisely because he had not yet been exposed to these exact conditions (just lesser variants), he had simply just not reached the threshold for his perfect frenzy, but the groundwork was all there, which thereby justifies Oda's same logical leap, as the exact size of the leap is the crux of the question here.

[dreamy violet]

Respectfully disagree with this. With the way Oda writes, I don't believe he will create Ace as a character who is meant to die and only act as a reason for readers to feel sad. This is supported by the fact that throughout the story, Ace's influences are felt. Especially in Wano. When Luffy gets there, he meets a lot of people whose trust he gained because Ace had been through there. If Ace was simply meant to die to induce audience emotion, there would be no need to give him this big of a role. Additionally, Ace's character is fleshed out. If you pay attention to his backstory in the flashback, his actions as told by the other characters, his interactions off screen, his motivations, his dreams, you would know that Ace can stand very strongly as his own character and not just as a prop to make people sad because luffy is sad. Sure the two characters influence one another, but that isn't all they are. Ace has his own dreams, and wishes outside of Luffy and so does Luffy. Neither one of them is ever just a prop for the other.

[muted plank]

Justifiable bc ace's true dream and the entire reason he set out to sea was to ans the question "was it good that I was born?" (Garp tells him maybe he will find out if he keeps living in his flashback just before his death)

His question is finally answered at marineford and he breaks down realizing his family is willing to die for him

Following that, insulting the very man who gave him a sense of belonging was a violation so deep he couldnt live with himself if he didnt atleast give akainu a good punch

I dont think he was trying to kill akainu, I think he just wanted to clash with him before completing his fathers wishes of retreating to the sea, but akainu used that opportunity to go for luffy. It all happened too quickly but Ace died happy anyway bc his dream was fulfilled

[mint rose]

This is disproved by the fact that he had an enourmous influence after his death. I don't think Oda flashed out ACE as he wanted to till that point. Well, now at least we have more ACE material.

[river jackal]

When is the debate set to officially begin?

[proper ocean]

I think it's free flowing.

I guess I have a question about the topic. We're supposed to be debating how logical Ace's actions were to us before his character was more fleshed out? Why not how irrational his action is knowing everything - that's what actually matters, right? Unless I'm misunderstand the question, this debate seems more poised to settle an argument from ten years ago rather than actually talk about something fruitful.

[desert wyvern]

About a week ago. The stage will likely be tomorrow, we're hashing out a time for it still.

[desert wyvern]

We're supposed to be debating how logical Ace's actions were to us before his character was more fleshed out?

No. How logical they were to you isn't too relevant, it's whether his actions were something you could see justified based on what we'd learned about him before they occurred, as opposed to justifying it retroactively with the ASL flashback.

Why not how irrational his action is knowing everything - that's what actually matters, right?

No, that doesn't really matter at all. His actions weren't rational, that was the point of this being a character flaw, so there's no point in questioning it. The debate is just about whether it's something you could've realistically seen him doing, given everything that leads up to the moment of his death.

[warped venture]

hi

[river jackal]

Is the stage where we as fans can join in for one final debate, or is the stage the one where the mods and others can join in during the VC discussion of sorts? If it's the latter, do you guys usually put it on YouTube so fans can listen in at any time?

And here's another point that adds up towards the fact that Ace was acting in accordance to his character. He is technically not on Luffy's side as a pirate, it's more of a neutral area with them being from different pirate crews but Ace still takes time in Alabasta to protect Luffy from danger and guide him. He even faces Captain Smoker, a more than capable Marine with a rare DF just to buy Luffy time and ensure he's well on his way. This further supports that Ace cared deeply for his family and was willing to take on anyone that troubled them in any way

[desert wyvern]

It's not on Youtube, it's just a more or less open discussion for people who participated in the debate.

[desert wyvern]

This doesn't really justify him allowing the sacrifice of his family to go to waste. That's the big part that isn't really being addressed in your argument, "he cares about family" isn't nearly enough justification to go from "I'm going to let them rescue me and not waste their sacrifice" to stopping to pick a fight with the literal worst possible person on the other side, and placing everyone in danger for it.

[rotund temple]

@shadow coyote please do not make other series comparisons when discussing this topic. Also, the question is whether or not Ace's character was consistent throughout and if his irrational actions during Marine Ford were in line with the character that had been built so far.

[river jackal]

I think it’s complex. There are several reasons that I believe are responsible for Ace’s actions. I’ll list them instead of go all out with details: Ace having Roger’s blood, being WB’s son, being tortured and emotionally/physically damaged, severely before his execution, seeing his family suffer right before his eyes and being helpless during all of it. I think Akainu just struck a nerve and Ace wasn’t well enough to see the big picture clearly. It’s possible that he was ready and 100% willing to die but then the war broke out fully before his hour had come. In short, Ace wasn’t well enough to fight, but he’s a fighter who picks fights so his instincts and nature betrayed him in this instant

Also, @desert wyvern why no YouTube save for later so others can listen in? These are in-depth conversations that enrich the knowledge base of the OP community as a whole

[remote pollen]

I mean how could Ace have known he was going to get donuted in the next couple of seconds? Luffy engaged the admirals multiple times in the war and didn't turn into a donut. Ace didn't know he was going to die. Stuff like this happens all the time in real life hence why people die of accidents.

[oak relic]

I believe that Ace knew Whitebeard came to Marineford to die after seeing him act the way he did when he was stabbed and shot by the marines and attacked by Akainu without even a hint of retreating in his mind.
So he wished to leave despite Whitebeard being left behind while keeping his pride to genuinely be able to live with losing his Father after escaping Marineford, but Akainu putting dirt on Whitebeard's name in front of Ace, while he knew his Father went there to die was the utmost of any all disrespect and insult one could give to a dying man.
Wanting to leave without regrets would not be possible and he would forever lose his purpose if he left there without trying to defend the honor of the Greatest Pirate Alive in that era of which took him in and raised him like a son.

It was a purely emotional reaction, a Son wanting to defend his dying Father's honor even if it costs him his life, a childish but innocent desire to help his dad one final time before leaving as he knew he would never see Whitebeard again after leaving

It's true at face value it can be seen as ridiculous stupid, another situation very similar to this was Bellemere with Nami and Nojiko, not a smart decision even remotely, but purely emotional and to be able to live with absolutely no regrets because that is what they did not have for a long period of their lives or a portion of their lives, a purpose to keep going. For Bellemere, it was to be the Mother she thought she never could be and couldn't be ever had she lied that she had no children to Arlong. For Ace, it was not his brothers this time, while still being a major drive in his life, it was no longer the main focus, his main purpose in life now was to make Whitebeard the King of The PIrates, and he would do absolutely anything to have that happen.

So to conclude, I believe Ace had a pretty justifiable reason for doing what he did, because he wished to follow his own purpose without being held back by the needs of anyone else, because that is just who he is as a person and as a pirate. A powerful character with a soft side for his family and especially his Father, that faced a tragic end in order to help one his dad one last time, but that subsequently brought others not related to his dream in it, in this context being Luffy, and now taking responsibility for his mistake by sacrificing his life in front of Luffy so he could live and let his brother follow his dream, because at that point he understood his and whitebeards dreams have ended.

[rare lantern]

@pliant thorn Please read the channel description

[mental elm]

If you saw someone willing to die for you, i think it would be disrespectful to not die for them too. Whitebeard is his captain after all, an oldie who has health problems stood up and tried to rescue him. What I really didn't like is that he basically denied whitebeard's last wish (i dont quite remember if this moment was before or after ace's death) which is to live.

[rare lantern]

That's great

Not the topic for this channel

Please read the channel description