#debate-arena

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

young geyser
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Aight I’ll be home in like 15mins to pin stuff

uncut wigeon
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haki is a good thing for the manga as there are some early dudes introduced such as zeff and mihawk that doesn't possess df but is still damn renowned and strong.

charred aurora
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whats the debate about ?

frozen solstice
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"From east blue to Wano, haki has unfolded into a central domineering power structure in One Piece that is incorporated into many of the moves/powers/and abilities for many of the current lineup of characters. Has haki been a net positive or negative for the series? Please present examples to support your argument."

terse vector
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Btw Vic,

haki is not the end-all be-all of One Piece.
I don't think the example you gave there counts much for it as the only post timeskip battle after haki was much fleshed out was the Kyros and diamante thing which wouldn't be affected eitherwise as it doesn't include one of the main prospect of Haki: hitting logias. That seems a lost opportunity. We lost the importance signified by "a battle between fire and smoke" wouldn't end which showed how important matchups were for winning battles, which can now be - the one who will have better haki among them would win

thin marlin
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I'd still argue that Devil Fruits still remains the main power system and haki acts as an enhancement to the power that users possess

charred aurora
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i see , shouldnt it be pinned tho , anyway , while haki got its positives and negatives i think , the negatives overturn the positives , might do a proper essay later

terse vector
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@rare lantern

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sorry didn't ping in the post as couldn't find your username before

frozen solstice
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Yeah feel free to make an essay and post it here when you can

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Keep in mind of the deadline

rare lantern
frozen solstice
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which I didn't

rare lantern
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Because it's an example of how people can win without using haki or even with using haki plus help from something else

thin marlin
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Helper btw

rare lantern
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The Logia DF is gonna be the biggest thing people bring up

terse vector
rare lantern
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That's why the majority of my post addresses it but I get what you mean

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Ehhh, not necessarily

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Cause remember, haki was introduced in Jaya

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The point was that it shouldn't be something we consider as a specific and required powerup

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Just like how Luffy uses water to beat Crocodile, now fights involve much more than that

terse vector
rare lantern
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We get haki, DFs, DF awakenings, rokushiki, dials, sulong, etc

rare lantern
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The main thing I was getting at is that haki is not needed to be strong in One Piece

lethal falcon
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Look at Franky lol

rare lantern
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It's an automatic positive because it adds flavor to the food

terse vector
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that was before the concept of arnament haki was hardly used

lethal falcon
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Dudes strong without it

rare lantern
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Well how often has CoA been used to win though?

lethal falcon
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All luffy fights ig

rare lantern
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Well, if you are gonna say Gear 4

uncut wigeon
thin marlin
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Franky and Robin have used no Haki at all to beat opponents too lmao

lethal falcon
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Zoro too no?

rare lantern
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That doesn't just mean haki, it's also his DF

rare lantern
terse vector
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CoA has been used to enhance his devil fruit, yes, but the reason it can affect logias is due to haki

rare lantern
terse vector
rare lantern
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Like the couple of examples I gave provide enough evidence to suggest that you can hit them without haki

chrome mist
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btw @terse vector you didn't reply to this

terse vector
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ah fed just a minute

rare lantern
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Now that I think about it

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People tend to use DFs way more than anything else

terse vector
rare lantern
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Like haki is definitely a big part of the world now

rare lantern
terse vector
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yeah I agree, but that part is the thing that would be used regardless of the concept of devil fruit being there or not. That is something unaffected by the introduction of haki, but them being able to hit haki isn't. tho I agree the use of specific matchup/weakness of the devil fruit is still there, but its largely overshadowed by the use of haki

clear zenith
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this chat is unreadable

terse vector
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wait for some time. debate helpers will pin the proper discourse which might help

chrome mist
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its largely overshadowed by the use of haki
I disagree with that still, there weren't enough logias to make that assessment

terse vector
# rare lantern The only one that was before was Luffy VS Crocodile

luffy vs Magellan was also there when we hardly knew what arnament haki was. use of mantra and others don't come in this specific argument as those aren't what is used to hit the logias. Luffy vs Enel, Luffy vs Magellan, that was before the concept of Haki was properly fleshed out

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also sorry for not turning mentions off, didn't want the argument to be swayed away by the discussion

chrome mist
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Well Magellan is a paramecia anyway so haki wouldn't have mattered much there

terse vector
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well yeah

young geyser
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Well with what we know about armament haki now, it can be a very big help vs Magellan

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You no longer need to suicide your hands when punching him.

small dirge
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Is there a different debate topic this time?

young geyser
lethal falcon
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Is haki a good system or not

terse vector
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yeah Adam. I was just pointing out Vic's example doesn't hold much for that point as the examples he gave were all of pre-timeskip (except one) which wasn't of logia

rare lantern
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Can we count Garp hitting Luffy with his "Fist of Love" as CoA?

young geyser
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No

terse vector
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yeah

chrome mist
rare lantern
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Hmmm

terse vector
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isn't fist of love arnament?

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luffy specifically commented on that in the anime

young geyser
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This was actually asked in an sbs

chrome mist
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Think so

young geyser
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Oda said it wasn’t armament

rare lantern
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Well, regardless, yeah the main thing is that CoA would've been way more useful then

atomic portal
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same like nami being able to punch luffy and hurt him

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(in a comical sense)

rare lantern
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I was specifically addressing the fact that I know people hate haki because of the whole "it's required to fight anyone in the New World or Logia DF users"

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Cause to me, that is just false and doesn't make it a bad thing

terse vector
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we haven't gotten a fight post-timeskip where the battle between logia doesn't speak "this matchup would have been better" as haki just works

young geyser
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Haki is overall bad and more on that later

devout galleon
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An in depth argument against the overall positives of haki CrocThink

rare lantern
devout galleon
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Caribou

rare lantern
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They're super rare

terse vector
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caesar

rare lantern
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I always forget Caesar is a Logia lmao

terse vector
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well I also mostly do

devout galleon
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Caribou was the main antagonist of an arc 🤨

rare lantern
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Yeah I'll give you that one

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I think Luffy straight up bodied him with CoA, but tbf, Caesar did beat him initially

rare lantern
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I don't even really count him as an enemy tbh

terse vector
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that and the loss of the prospect of piracy for seastone and seastone mostly falling into oblivion is my issue with haki.
but with what fed posted before, Oda didn't want to do the second thing anyway so yeah the logia point is only what I have

rare lantern
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I 100% agree with that

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We should be seeing more with dials and seastone, it's actually a travesty

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Used for like 1 or 2 arcs and then just gone, reduced to atoms waaGONE

devout galleon
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I don’t blame the lack of seastone on haki tbh

terse vector
rare lantern
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That being said, we've gotten a lot of seastone in Wano

terse vector
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its just, the specific matchups don't have the significance which it would have if haki wasn't there

rare lantern
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Should be way more though, since it's the damn origin island

terse vector
rare lantern
uncut wigeon
rare lantern
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But he had some other stuff put in place if it didn't pan out, ergo elemental counters, dials, and straight up other DFs

terse vector
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vic read this btw

rare lantern
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Apoo landing a hit on Kizaru will forever be so funny to me

terse vector
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lol

rare lantern
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Oooh yeah

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Unfortunately, I think Oda wants to put the story first above the fighting now

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So I can understand the feeling of fatigue with haki

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The lack of sea battles is pretty bizarre too

terse vector
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Sea battles, tactics, ambushes, the rush for seastone, baiting them by utilizing their desperation for seastone

rare lantern
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I do really like how the pre-timeskip fights were moreso about strategy

terse vector
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focus on seastone rather than haki would have opened doors to much more prospects imo

chrome mist
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I don't think pre-timeskip fights were about strategy lol

rare lantern
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Well ok, maybe not strategy but rather, ingenuity

terse vector
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yea

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so yeah vic, when you are at it, read this too

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some points that were refuted, I agree with those tho

chrome mist
terse vector
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more prospects of piracy, cuz like what Nami said in the sky island about them being pirate and taking the gold. Buying the seastone with money, or looting the supply of seastone. That would add to more sea battles, more ships raids, ambushes, baiting other ships for seastone

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@chrome mist

chrome mist
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Well as I said that part isn't about Haki

terse vector
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it was just continuation of that with Vic

rare lantern
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I will never understand the lack of seastone yeah

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I suppose Oda just likes showing the flashier tools in the toolbox

terse vector
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its mostly just a direction that Oda went with

chrome mist
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Seastone will end up being a power up for either Franky or Usopp, considering Franky will need new tech and materials

terse vector
terse vector
rare lantern
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I pray for a sea battle in the Final War NamiPray

terse vector
chrome mist
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Won't happen lol

terse vector
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"A man can still hope"

minor void
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Anyone who thinks Haki is a net negative here?

rare lantern
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Nooooo, the Sea Kings need to be relevant

chrome mist
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A man can still reread WCI CrocoStare

terse vector
minor void
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Ok

young geyser
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A sneak peek is that armament haki as protection equal good, spatial awareness with observation good, literally everything else bad

minor void
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Woah

terse vector
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so being able to hit logia and seeing future bad? CrocThink

chrome mist
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Future sight is pog, won't hear otherwise

terse vector
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yeah i like it too

minor void
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Same here

young geyser
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Future sight as a concept is mostly useless

rare lantern
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Yeah when CoA was revealed to be able to be used offensively, I was like ehhh

chrome mist
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It's not

minor void
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I think Conquerer's was practically just a flex for characters until Advanced Conquerors (which I like btw)

young geyser
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The scenario you foresaw changes every 0.01 seconds due to how fast characters move

rare lantern
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"We'll see where it goes", but then CoCting came in and made Adv CoA seem like a joke

terse vector
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Advanced conquerors makes sense given what you can do with conquerors is what brook can do with the music

stoic river
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Future sight is ultra instinct basically

chrome mist
terse vector
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and this is not a place for other series spoilers basically

stoic river
rare lantern
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The problem is Future Sight will only be useful for lowering the amount of damage Luffy takes

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Because from here on out, everyone he will fight will be too fast

terse vector
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well that might increase in battle

rare lantern
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Future Sight will be useful enough for him to just take a hit but keep going

stoic river
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Luffy already was dodging most everything before future sight also

chrome mist
terse vector
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but mostly its just to seperate what will happen when he keeps his calm and when he doesn't

rare lantern
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I guess Blackbeard might be slow QueenKEKW

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I can't wait for Imu to start fucking using Sky Walk 2 and fly at the speed of sound

terse vector
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I don't want Blackbeard to have conquerors but that doesn't fall on the topic of this discussion ig

stoic river
minor void
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I think Conquerer's is the only shaky part of Haki, but Observation and Armament are definitely good.

young geyser
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ARGUMENT

From east blue to Wano, haki has unfolded into a central domineering power structure in One Piece that is incorporated into many of the moves/powers/and abilities for many of the current lineup of characters. Has haki been a net positive or negative for the series? Please present examples to support your argument.

Haki Good

Vic:
#debate-arena message

Federick: #debate-arena message

Saudaddy: #debate-arena message

Balkan:
#debate-arena message

Eman: #debate-arena message

Bean:
#debate-arena message

Igor: #debate-arena message

Macks: #debate-arena message

Rokaya: #debate-arena message

Haki Bad

Goro: #debate-arena message

Adam:
#debate-arena message

Choc: #debate-arena message

Rob: #debate-arena message

RESULTS:
https://strawpoll.com/ghxdds871

StrawPoll
Has haki been a net positive or negative? | StrawPoll.com

What's your opinion? Vote now: Positive, Negative...

young geyser
chrome mist
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Good argument

rare lantern
terse vector
minor void
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I'm stunned by it.

terse vector
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well he is doing that to add the links later
but ye
lmao

minor void
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I should make a big paragraph too...

young geyser
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bean interrupting vic smh

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gonna delete bean's comment

terse vector
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Crydo
lol

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ig I'll combine two of my paragraphs too, even tho they don't hae much value

rare lantern
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Ty Adam NamiPray

young geyser
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@terse vector do you have a comment you want pinned

terse vector
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Thesis

Haki has robbed us of the ingenuity of the power system when it was limited to only devil fruits, pertaining to specific matchup required to battle logias, and lessen the significance of seastone which would have opened up a whole new aspect to the story

Points

The downside of Haki for me is that Devil fruit was a good system. It was something that depended on the specific matchup and it had a significance, it had a ingenuity to it. Like Luffy vs Crocodile, Luffy vs Enel. Inclusion of Haki has made the importance of Devil fruit kinda pointless except for their certain characteristics. Like the rarity of Logia make sense about its ability, about it being invulnerable to physical attacks except for the matchups. Having haki makes it a linear system where the majority it is if B has strong haki than C and A has stronger haki than B, A would be stronger than C. Granted other stuff like ADvanced observation haki is there, but its like an extension their physical abilities rather than a combination/matchup.

Another prospect of not having Haki would be that even the Yonkos would have to use seastone for beating fodders with logia. And this leads to a world/system where one of the significant thing would be piracy of sea-stone, the one with the largest supply of seastone would be near the top and the hunt for seastone would be one of the piracy.

it would be better with just having Conqueror's haki which would seperate the people at the top with fodders, highlighting that they are the only persons with potential to rise at the top. So yeah just the role it is playing right now, but without much stuff.

But yea Color of Observation wouldn't also make much of an issue as it doesn't affect the ingenuity of the devil fruit system, would just add as an extension for their physical ablities

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Also, elaboration on the point of the second paragraph:
It might make it less of a battle shounen, but the focus on the core concept of piracy would have increased. The use of seastone can only come about in situations of one party having been extremely prepared with contingencies to use Seastone in a very effective manner, which would make the battle more calculated: the use of battle tactics and plan more effective than it currently is, and that adds to the unpredictability and hype of the battle

Then there's the logistics of seastone production and distribution around the world, it is extremely rare in most cases and only obtainable with high potential of monetary means, which means the use of it remains very rare. And this is a positive thing IMO. As I said in the above paragraph, it would have more prospects of piracy, cuz like what Nami said in the sky island about them being pirate and taking the gold. Buying the seastone with money, or looting the supply of seastone. That would add to more sea battles, more ships raids, ambushes, baiting other ships for seastone. I might be forgetting some key moments while typing this, but did we have something that would feel like piracy after sabaody, or even Skypiea?

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@rare lantern how do you do the underline thing?

chrome mist
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_this_

rare lantern
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Two underscores on each side

terse vector
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ah thanks

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well @young geyser please do the needful NamiPray

young geyser
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I already added it

terse vector
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ah NamiPray

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anyways, gotta hit the bed now. Enjoy the discussion NamiPray

ornate kernel
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vic is a speed reader who ignored Wyper’s seastone shoes and thinks the reject dial is the reason he could harm enel:/

sorry to nitpick I otherwise like his argument

rare lantern
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Didn't ignore it

shy quest
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Haki=God Usopp's treasure to the world.

rare lantern
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Just not the point lol

visual flame
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Are we still accepting big post critiques?

shy quest
visual flame
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I'll make one if it's ok

ornate kernel
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well u said the reject dial is something that could ignore logia invulnerability

rare lantern
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It was both the Reject Dial and the Seastone skates

ornate kernel
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which it isn’t, had absolutely nothing to do with why enel was able to be hurt there. he could’ve been hurt by anything at that point, the dial was just the method wyper used

rare lantern
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The Seastone skates didn't do the damage

clever sleet
visual flame
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Do I have to take one stance or another and make a post explaining my reasoning?

shy quest
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Haki is only for a select few, while with enough time and resources. You could arm a whole nation with seastone, seastone is still relevant and useful.

rare lantern
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The point is that haki isn't the only thing people can use to hurt Logia DF users

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Seastone, dials, other DFs, etc

shy quest
rare lantern
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Apoo is a good example too

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I believe Killer and Apoo are the only people who damage using soundwaves

young geyser
shy quest
rare lantern
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Yeah, there's that too

visual flame
young geyser
rare lantern
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Yeah probably not

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Just that it can disrupt them or do something that haki would otherwise, not be needed for

young geyser
visual flame
young geyser
rare lantern
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Yeah the barrel lmao

young geyser
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@visual flame i also recommend typing it in notepad

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and then copy pasting

visual flame
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probably a wise idea lol

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this might take a bit sus

young geyser
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if you switch to another server cause you get pinged, it can all be deleted

visual flame
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I wasn't aware, thanks for the warning

young geyser
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lowkey this feeling like a rant

rare lantern
devout galleon
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I haven’t seen many anti-haki arguments so far

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This will be good OrochiScheme

rare lantern
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Imagine if anti-haki was a thing BuggyMonkaS

young geyser
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Oda isnt based enough for that, unfortunately

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But yeah if you remember the conversations that i had about ACoA vs ACoC yeah, that part feels ranty in my statement AkainuLULW Only a couple more paragraphs left

devout galleon
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Man you guys are fast

tribal ivy
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too fast

devout galleon
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It’s a pretty broad prompt ngl I keep going off track

coarse bear
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I’m not against haki in the series

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Haki just sucks

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Why is there 10 second slow mode it’s Wednesday

marble frost
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Imagine new haki

clear zenith
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Cocting

young geyser
coarse bear
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i didn’t realize I was in debate lmao

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My b

devout galleon
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I’m interpreting the ‘haki bad’ stance as either being “It should be Devil fruits only” or “Haki has been handled poorly” and I’m not sure which one to focus on.

young geyser
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here's the prompt

young geyser
long tartan
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I think that Haki has its positives and negatives.
Positives:

  1. Overall good power system.
  2. Multiple types of Haki.

Negatives:

  1. Terribly explained for episodes 1-500ish (pre-timeskip)
  2. Needs more explaining overall.
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overall

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good power system

visual flame
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I don't know long this is going to be BuggySweat

signal helm
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Here's my take on it:
Personally, I think Haki is a brilliant tool to prevent one piece from being cheesy. I think without Haki, there would've been a pressure, in a manner of speaking, for every character that's relevant in terms of power to have an arbitrary devil fruit would eventually get tiresome and, frankly, have some kinda silly abilities after a while that would pale in comparison to some of the other more compelling fruits. Just as well, Haki also allows for one piece to be more than just one kind of "power" or "ability". This, to me, is part of what differentiates one piece from other series', the ability to be effective and even deadly in a fight without the sort of "ability" that the series itself is famous for. I also would like to add that I think Haki works better as the source of power for SOME individuals in the series than a devil fruit would; I like Sanji, Zoro, and Rayleigh alot more as characters who honed their Haki abilities to the level that they did and apply it in battle more than I think I would if they had some random (even if it was powerful) devil fruit.

signal helm
# signal helm Here's my take on it: Personally, I think Haki is a brilliant tool to prevent o...

to add on to my point: to me the thought that Haki is OP because it can counter Logia/other powerful devil fruits is a non starter. Not only do we have characters who have both devil fruits AND haki, but we've had characters who are skilled enough with their devil fruit to be able to soundly beat haki users. The efficacy of an individual in battle is based upon how skilled they are, rather than being a guarantee because they have an ability. I think, as previously stated, Haki adds a new element into the mix that is entertaining and makes more sense for certain characters. I also enjoy haki because, just like Devil Fruit users have the ability to "awaken" their powers if they're strong enough, any individual has the ability to train themselves enough to be a haki user and unlock that power within themselves. I'd even say that the series developing someone enough to be a haki user is arguably better than them gaining the ability of a fruit, in terms of character development, as its more satisfying to see their training pay off to have this incredible ability rather than them being lucky enough to get a power through other means. In fact, I'd put the development of ones Haki on even keel with the ability to awaken ones fruit. And I think as the series goes on, we will be more infatuated with and entertained by characters with strong haki abilities than we will those with strong fruits. I say this because so many of us are still excited to see what Shanks and the rest of the RHP are capable of and, to our knowledge, none of them possess the ability of a devil fruit, but are wholly compelling nonetheless. In addition, Roger is likely the most powerful pirate to ever exist and never had a devil fruit, furthering the point that haki is a compelling ability to own.

young geyser
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oof it takes 4 messages for my character count

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I'd say overall, haki has been a negative for the series although there are some positive elemements. Let's start with the positive.

Armament haki being used as an armor is a good concept, as it allows fist fighters like Luffy or a martial artist like Jinbe to block attacks that normally would not make sense, like sword slashes or defending against a volatile attack. If Luffy had armament as an armor vs Magellan, his punches no longer make his fists sacrifical which makes the fight harder for Magellan, needing him to hit places that Luffy does not have haki covered.

Spatial awareness is also a good addition to the series. Being able to be aware of opponents and friends allows for less situations to be solved by convenience than by reading the situation and acting appropriately. Take Luffy/Zoro/Sanji sensing Shirahoshi being attacked by Caribou or Sanji going back to save Tashigi. Without spatial awareness, we'd probably just have to have them stumble upon Caribou assaulting Shirahoshi "conveniently" or Sanji going back "conveniently".

Now we get to the eh.

Precognition is alright, but Future sight is just too much. However, in a series that fights as fast as One Piece, the latter should be borderline useless in most scenarios. If you see the next 5 seconds of a scenario, and you change your movement in reaction to something that happens 0.15 seconds in, then the rest of the future you saw is completely irrelevant because you changed it, so it's basically working like precognition in most instances. Obviously there are fringe scenarios like Katakuri watching pudding fall during the wedding, but that's not a fighting scenario. Just reaction time is enough to suspend people's disbelief in all honestly. Precognition/Future sight is not necessary for logia/special paramecia to reshape their bodies to dodge an attack, that can be done just with reaction time if the fighter is experienced enough.

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Armament haki. In most instances, it's basically just punch harder and the inherent ability to touch logias. Some people will say armament haki was necesasry for future logia fights, and I disagree based on a couple reasons. First you could argue Oda wrote himself into a hole, but I don't think he necessarily did. Would it have been preferrable to just have logia be tangible and just accept that smoke/light are punchable? Sure. But once Smoker was introduced, that concept was locked in, even for tangible substances like ice.

We also have the progression of armament in the series, which quite frankly, has been ridiculous. Luffy learned the basics of all 3 forms of haki from Rayleigh in 1.5 years. He then proceeds to master not only advanced armament haki that Hyou can do, but also the implosion form that Hyou cannot do, all in 1 week. Sounds like Luffy was slacking like hell on that island or Rayleigh is a worse teacher than we all thought.

Alongside this, we're given the concept of haki blooms in combat was given in chapter 886. "I've given you training now, but the the real advancement in haki happens during extreme use in battle. The stronger the foes you face with this power, the stronger you'll become with it. Luffy probably had serious sparring sessions with Rayleigh to up his armament and then sparred with the ruskaina animals that he couldn't touch before, and even needed G4 to develop. But why didn't Rayleigh teach him advanced so he could do it without G4 anyway? Rayleigh being gigabrained and knowing Luffy wouldn't advance his fruit enough if he did? That Rayleigh was gigabrained and knew he'd have a teacher on Wano as Rayleigh knew he'd eventually have to travel there to reach Laughtale? Probably not. He advanced in a week punching a door and a tree than on Ruskaina.

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Not only that, that haki still was not good enough, as Luffy then uses ACoC with absolutely no training in doing so, just applying "flow" to CoC like some lightbulb moment. Then Oda changes the look mega-advanced ACoA, having no difference in appearance from ACoA that Hyou does.

I think CoC knocking people out was a decent concept and not something too strong in fighting scenarios that we find our MCs in, basically being fodder control so our MCs dont have to do it themselves. However, the lack of CoC actually being fodder control is severely lacking and has only been relevant twice throughout the series. Once in Marineford when WB can't use it due to being ill followed up by Luffy who did use it, and then Luffy using it at FMI. Other than that, a character having CoC is just used as a hype tool by Oda to hype up a character and has no real use. It's basically a glorified bounty.

Then we have ACoC which is just a bad concept. People having to be born with CoC to even unlock being able to punch as hard as the top tiers is ridiculous. Not to mention the power is again, punching harder. There is nothing interesting about this power. It just "looks hype."

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Overall, the story could have gone a route that involves mass use of seastone to overcome the hurdles that haki set to ease. Seastone coated knuckles or glove for luffy, seastone tinted swords, seastone tipped boots, etc were all that really need to be done, and have the seastone act as a substance that can essentially be the armor I talked about in my first paragraph. Spatial awareness is not enough of a net positive to overcome the negatives of haki. Haki has caused too much powergrowth in a short amount of time that it cannot really be ignored. The amount of growth it has caused is immersion breaking for myself and many others. The positives do not outweight the negatives in my opinion. Haki has gotten out of hand.

rare lantern
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I agree with the seastone stuff

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No idea why seastone and dials got shoved off into the sidelines

signal helm
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My thing is, Adam, even though I agree with some of what you said about Haki, I feel DFs would eventually have been buffed to include such abilities had Haki not been a thing. Haki, at least, allows for a different perspective of power and ability rather than having to have an arbitrary DF and even if its a bit OP to do things like COC (which despite my support of Haki, is my least favourite aspect) it prevents the series from being derivative by making DF users the seat of power in the series, which imo, is more important.

chrome mist
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However, in a series that fights as fast as One Piece, the latter should be borderline useless in most scenarios. If you see the next 5 seconds of a scenario, and you change your movement in reaction to something that happens 0.15 seconds in, then the rest of the future you saw is completely irrelevant because you changed it, so it's basically working like precognition in most instances
I don't think future sight not being a huge advantage in fights is an issue, as it makes the overall narrative really interesting in also providing a way to show whether a character is in the right mindset to use future sight (and by extension taking the fight and situation seriously)

Armament haki. In most instances, it's basically just punch harder and the inherent ability to touch logias
Don't think it's really about punching harder, I think it's about enabling new ways to hit your opponents, which may be more effective
I also find the notion of Oda writing himself into a corner utterly laughable considering he went on to add Special Paramecias

We also have the progression of armament in the series, which quite frankly, has been ridiculous. Luffy learned the basics of all 3 forms of haki from Rayleigh in 1.5 months
Pretty sure you mean 2 years. Sure he might have gotten the basics pretty soon, but he still needed to learn to apply them consistently.
About Hyogoro's teachings, Luffy only managed to take a week because of what he learned through Rayleigh, and the fact Luffy learned ACoC through him also is due to Rayleigh training Luffy in controlling his CoC at will (FMI progression)

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Then we have ACoC which is just a bad concept. People having to be born with CoC to even unlock being able to punch as hard as the top tiers is ridiculous
If CoC being genetic is what makes you have it then I agree with you, however I think it's another manifestation of fate and destiny (Having the potential to become a leader in the future means you "genetically" have CoC)

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The amount of growth it has caused is immersion breaking for myself and many others
This is a bit of a meta argument but we would have had the same progression without it being haki, whether you like Haki or not I think we can all agree it's better than having new abilities coming out of nowhere (Asura, etc.)

earnest vault
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I believe Haki evened the playing field for the most part, it was built upon you rather than getting lucky and getting a broken fruit, the strongest pirates seem to be haki users and I like how broke devil fruits don't stand a chance against Haki, since the new world the focus on devil fruits has shifted towards Haki.

mighty sail
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think haki is decent as it stands, i like it for the sole fact that it made logias balanced though i do think it's pretty boring

i'll like it a lot more if we get to see more advanced applications of haki considering that kaido and big mom are basically just physical monsters with haki tacked on top

~~honestly hoping the admirals will be better at haki than kaido/bm for this reason LuffyTruthful ~~

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not stronger haki ofc, just more skill

chrome mist
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Well yea, big mom's forte is brute strenght so you cannot add much to that outside of her df lol

mighty sail
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we already saw fuji's observation + the og admirals' ryuo so i'm p hopeful about it

clear zenith
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it helps a lot because how is luffy going to beat anyone with only his df
even if he got the awakening he not that strong without haki
gear 4 isn’t possible without haki and conquerors haki is

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really helpful because of what happened in the manga

ornate kernel
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oda definitely could’ve written gear 4 w/o haki being involved

devout galleon
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He couldn’t have though. How is luffy supposed to harden his rubber without armament

desert wyvern
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By compressing it

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Or by heating it, really there's no shortage of ways for it, that's not exactly a problem that only the concept of haki could remotely solve

devout galleon
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Compressing would mean he shrinks himself and heating would require friction

young geyser
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You just have Luffy master his body so he can compress and stretch at will

desert wyvern
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It's how Gear 4th already works

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This would just be doing it in multiple places at once, and keeping it tightly packed just by muscle control alone. Basically what Adam said, this doesn't become troublesome unless you invent the concept of haki

devout galleon
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Armament lets him stretch and harden at the same time. Without it he’d only be able to do one or the other

desert wyvern
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Or, he gains the ability to do either or both at the same time

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The way you're using armament can't work here, remove the concept entirely and these things are not beyond the reasonable scope of Luffy's ability by any means

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Especially if Oda decides that's how he wants to do it. Which would be perfectly fine, the fact that Tekkai is an existing technique proves even with armament existing he wouldn't necessarily need it

chrome mist
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Surely you already start to see how Tekkai is just another random ability you can gain without devil fruit, and by adding others it just makes stuff more and more random

desert wyvern
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Random is good. This is a sprawling, massive world with dozens if not hundreds of different cultures across the planet

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It'd be strange for there not to be this many abilities. Truth be told, it's weird we have so few

chrome mist
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Having random abilities without fruits already removes the point of having fruits

final scarab
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I think haki has had a positive impact on the series. It adds more complexity to fights i think.

desert wyvern
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These abilities are basic or advanced martial arts, whereas devil fruits are entirely supernatural and present effects that can't possibly be replicated in most cases

chrome mist
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But they do, the world is interconnected

desert wyvern
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They don't, not the way you're presenting here. The existence of devil fruits coincides with things, it doesn't detract from them

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These are things that exist just fine mutually

chrome mist
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These abilities are basic or advanced martial arts
Creating fire isn't a martial art

desert wyvern
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It is, actually

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As we see in Wano

chrome mist
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Referring to Luffy

desert wyvern
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That falls under "advanced"

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Luffy doing it doesn't have to have anything to do with his devil fruit, because as I said, we see this isn't something unique to that

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Hell, first fire ability in the series had nothing to do with fruits at all

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If it does, that's also fine. He doesn't have a fire fruit, and the ability is common enough

chrome mist
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Luffy doing it doesn't have to have anything to do with his devil fruit
That's the issue

desert wyvern
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Can you clarify?

chrome mist
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Being able to create fire out of nowhere like Luffy does removes the point of an unique ability that respawns each time the user of that ability dies. It already breaks the mechanics of the world, but Oda has been able to get away with it because he never put it on the forefront enough, and you can see it's a thing he tries to avoid like with Ashura now getting an "explanation" with CoC

desert wyvern
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Neither of those things are true by any means. Being able to create fire out of nowhere through a distinct process that is incredibly difficult to replicate doesn't affect at all that there is a fruit that gives you absolute supernatural power over fire itself. They're hardly even similar abilities, literally the only common part is that they both use fire. This would be like saying Daz Bones's fruit is useless because anyone can use swords, ignoring entirely the completely unique aspect of it coming from a devil fruit

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It doesn't break the mechanics of the world at all, I'm gonna need you to clarify that one a bit more. You'd have a point if Luffy were able to perfectly replicate the ability, but even in the matter of an ability being perfectly replicated (Pacifista lasers), we're still pretty distinctly shown the vast difference in the two approaches

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One does not compromise the other and has never in this entire series. It's like saying the Gura Gura is suddenly meaningless because Hasshouken is a thing.

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It's the fact that these are two major extreme ends of the scale that preserve the unique aspect of the fruits when these martial arts exist. It's like trying to say a person gets to have a rifle, and saying that invalidates the guy with the gatling gun attached to a tank.

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That they both use bullets was never the point.

devout galleon
chrome mist
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Being able to create fire out of nowhere through a distinct process that is incredibly difficult to replicate doesn't affect at all that there is a fruit that gives you absolute supernatural power over fire itself
The thing is: it's not a distinct process. It's a thing you get and you don't know the limits of it

This would be like saying Daz Bones's fruit is useless because anyone can use swords, ignoring entirely the completely unique aspect of it coming from a devil fruit
This is a false equivalence, since Daz Bones' fruit is literally about turned his body sharp. Not the same thing as carrying around swords

It doesn't break the mechanics of the world at all, I'm gonna need you to clarify that one a bit more
The mechanics are that a fruit is unique to itself, and once the user dies the fruit respawns. It makes the whole system redundant if everyone is now able to replicate that fruit.

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And just to be clear, I don't mind random abilities just for the sake of them being random, but they start to annoy me when those random abilities are used for progression, hence why I think they should still be coherent with the world and with the devil fruit system

desert wyvern
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The thing is: it's not a distinct process. It's a thing you get and you don't know the limits of it

No, it is a distinct process. We don't know how it works, the fact that not everyone actually can create fire (or otherwise) proves the process is distinct in some way. Even if it were something stumbled upon accidentally, that proves it's distinct too. They aren't just born able to light themselves on fire.

This is a false equivalence, since Daz Bones' fruit is literally about turned his body sharp. Not the same thing as carrying around swords

It's actually literally the same example, just changing "fire" for "swords". You're saying the ability to create fire invalidates the Mera Mera, it's literally the exact same, with no exaggeration, saying that using swords invalidates Daz Bones.

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The mechanics are that a fruit is unique to itself, and once the user dies the fruit respawns. It makes the whole system redundant if everyone is now able to replicate that fruit.

Not at all. Being able to replicate a tiny portion of the fruit's power isn't by any means the same as invalidating the fruit itself.

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To follow your example, you stated that because Luffy can create fire, the Mera Mera is now redundant. Even on the surface, that can't possibly work when the Mera Mera shows the ability to create a miniature sun, manipulate fire freely, and morph the person's body into it. Being able to light a limb or a weapon on fire at will is a vast difference to having a fruit that allows free manipulation of it.

chrome mist
desert wyvern
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But these things are not facts that clash.

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Being unique in nature isn't affected at all, devil fruits are still completely and entirely unique onto themselves. There has never been a show of technology or martial art that actually invalidates the ability of a devil fruit directly.

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And truth be told, the sheer difficulty in replicating any ability a fruit has to any degree at all plays against the argument here. These aren't easy or casual things, these are the absolute best of the best who train for years just to slightly compete. It's like saying Tekkai invalidates Daz Bones's fruit, as if we weren't shown that the pale imitation barely works against the real thing in Enies Lobby.

chrome mist
desert wyvern
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But that's not a part of the series, though. I'm not sure where the argument is here

chrome mist
clear zenith
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and if haki isnt involved how is anyone touching logias
also wouldnt that mean roger is weak
because roger is strong because of his haki

chrome mist
desert wyvern
desert wyvern
# chrome mist I'm talking about this

But you weren't arguing from the standpoint of the whole world having total access to these abilities, you were bringing up that these abilities existing at all invalidates devil fruits.

clear zenith
hollow wing
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Long multi-post incoming, I’ll wait for you guys to finish

chrome mist
desert wyvern
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Let's take a quick breather here

clear zenith
desert wyvern
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@hollow wing Go ahead and throw your bit down

hollow wing
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TLDR

Haki has been a great addition to the series and the lack of it would make the fights and confrontations of the series more boring, and Oda has used it well since its introduction (for the most part)

Gonna rebuttal first some arguments against Haki

Argument 1:

“Haki is the end all be all of fights now, better Haki > DF and now DF’s barely matter”

Haki has been clearly something Oda loves; from its first few showings in Saboady and then it’s gradual expanding upon in Amazon Lily-MF, it’s become the second largest power system in the series, just behind DF’s.

One may argue that it has overshadowed DF’s in terms of prominence/importance but I completely disagree (in terms of battle anyway. In terms of reputation and series lore Haki and specifically CoC has become more focal than DF’s. Lessons from Hyo in Udon, Rayleigh flashbacks, and the general talk about CoC users and their conquering nature have affected the plot more than DF’s lineage factor or any other plot implications. But I say that’s for now until we get to Vegapunk and BB)

But back to DF’s vs Haki in battle, I argue that DF’s are intended to still be the main combat system of the series, with whether or not a character has a DF taking more vital importance than their Haki strength. Pre-TS has obvious examples, Moria, Croc, Enel, Lucci, because Haki was a vague concept. But even the post-TS fights are more about the protagonists and antagonists DF’s and lack thereof

Doffy we barely cared about his Haki at all, Pika’s entire fight was focused on his DF, Diamanté, Caesar and his gas powers,
And of course, Katakuri, which was a fight almost entirely decided by their DF powers, not Luffy gaining Future sight

I believe Oda does the Haki/DF balance well and has led to some amazing fights in the New World. We are better off for having both systems

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Argument 2:

“Armament is just hit harder and hit Logias”

This one is harder to argue against because I think along these lines sometimes, BUT I believe this line is disingenuous. Armament is used often now because obviously a coated fist is harder than a normal punch, and it’s repetitiveness may cause us to not enjoy it as much. But this is the same thing as complaining every time Luffy stretches himself. It’s a battle power and it’s weirder for it NOT to be used, which is exactly what I see many complain about in various forums. Armament has also recently gotten expounded on with internal destruction and Haki flow, and we also have previous cool applications from the admirals and Sentomaru with their armament pulse things (that I forget how to describe). It’s a really cool power and I think we as a community diss armament too much.

Argument 3:

“CoC and Cocting is whack”

Gonna have to concede this. I think that CoC being attributed to a select few individuals is pretty lame, and the fact that it hides a secondary tier of punching/hitting power for a select few of the select few is also ridiculous. No DF can feasibly help to overcome this barrier except the really powerful ones, such as the admiral Logias or WB’s. It’s a crazy buff that’s honestly here to help make Luffy Yonko level soon, but whatever, it’s cool at least.

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Positives

It solves the Logia problem in probably the least convoluted way possible, and gives a great selection of new combat abilities to play with. Observation is so cool, seeing characters train up their reaction speed and dodging cool attacks (Sanji dodging Kata’s bean comes to mind) along with Future Sight has made battles so much fun to watch and read. CoA, while being the most basic of the three imo, now has cooler applications in Haki flow and internal destruction, along with the future plot of black sword coating. While these are all hype tools, it’s a shonen, I read One Piece partly because I love its hype, and Haki helps accentuate that.

Haki has also created a great show of growth for some of our characters. We have seen Sanji and Zoro’s proficiency in Obs and Armament in pretty cool ways so far, with Sanji finding Kin, Zoro controlling Enma, Sanji dodging the bean, etc. But the biggest boon for this is Luffy’s growth, the MC we spend the most time with. Between the Ray flashbacks in Dressrosa to WCI and Wano, we see Luffy focus on the different principles of Haki for the scenario at hand, and growing stronger and going up tiers before our very eyes. I’m not arguing for and against Luffy’s growth speed being bad or not, but was Luffy slowly forcing himself to use Future Sight in battle not cool? Or Luffy bashing on a steel cube in Udon over and over to learn internal destruction? Granted, Cocting felt forced and learnt instantly, but we can say that his training of ACoA and Haki flow helped him grasp the concept more easily.

Conclusion

I understand why Haki seems like a generic Shonen power system to some and I do agree with those who believe some aspects like CoC aren’t handled as well as it could’ve, I believe Oda did well with this power system and has intergrated it pretty well in his story. This is a shonen, fights are a big focal point, and I think we are better with Haki than without. Haki is a net positive for One Piece.

desert wyvern
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@hollow wing All good?

hollow wing
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Yeye

desert wyvern
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@young geyser sorry for the double LUL

willow hare
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I can still type here, even though I've got the muted role

chrome mist
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As I said before, I think CoC isn't genetics but more like something you get if you are destined to become a grest leader, and that's why I'm fine with it

#

But I also think you are underestimating how hard controlling CoC and haki in general is, so it not having too counters makes sense to me

desert wyvern
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How does this connect back to the devil fruits and their existence?

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As for the haki, it has plenty of counters. It's never been the absolute pinnacle of anything, as the fans like to assert

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The very things that it's been thought of as beating by default have repeatedly been shown to overcome it, almost casually at times.

chrome mist
desert wyvern
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Oh I did, my mistake.

young geyser
ornate kernel
desert wyvern
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I was more thinking Luffy at Amazon Lily, but yeah, them too

fast kite
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read through all of the posts. pretty decent points made. @young geyser said 1.5 months instead of years though. I'll probably make one myself later. Might be addressing some of the points being made on the positive side. PeepoDetective

desert wyvern
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Has haki been a net negative or positive in the series?

TLDR: POSITIVE. But I'm going to decide it from a slightly different standpoint than others, more at the bottom.

From East Blue all the way to now in Wano, haki has played barely a part in the series. We've rarely had much focus to it. Yes, we NOW have a good eye to it and what it can do, but up until Whole Cake Island it remained basically just a nice power to have in addition to devil fruits and martial arts.

There has been a heavily common opinion that haki, as soon as it was introduced, became the power that "everyone" has to have, or "everyone needs it or they can't fight", or any other such misconception. From its inception, haki has never fit that mold. From the first moment it was named in Amazon Lily, it only took a few chapters for Luffy to punch straight through it. This wasn't just basic armament either, it was confirmed to be an advanced application of it. This means the entire tone for haki was never actually set for it to ever be this unbeatable power, or this thing that brings people leagues above everyone else, and because of that fact, its bonuses have almost only ever been a positive thing. Not only that, but these bonuses have only ever been supplemental, and never the main idea.

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We can examine a few characters to see this as well.

Katakuri - One of the more obvious ones. This man's observation haki was trained to apparently the highest level that we've come to know of in the world, arguably still higher than even Luffy's now. And even on top of that, he had armament that was determined to be very much above Luffy's own at the time. However, Boundman showed us that haki was not the end all of that fight. Even with the more powerful armament, Luffy's devil fruit and physical force were more than enough to annihilate him. With his observation, Luffy's own speed and devil fruit were enough to circumvent it. Luffy did not counter Katakuri's haki with haki, he countered it with skill and ingenuity, along with a steroid to his general physical prowess. One could argue that because Gear 4th uses haki it still counts, however I would instead assert that this proves my point of haki only being a net positive supplement, and not a main weapon or grossly overused tool that's replaced anything in his arsenal.

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Luffy - The main character himself, his haki is used almost entirely to supplement the physical boost his devil fruit already gives him. Up until now, with conqueror's haki coating, it was always the side show but never the main attraction. I feel, personally, that because haki gained a clear visual indicator after the time skip, it was elevated to a status that Oda never intended it to be in the fandom. It was taken to be the ultimate end all of each confrontation, when the focus should've been Luffy's own progress and the way he has been able to augment himself so often and so well.

Now, don't get me wrong. Haki has absolutely been a big help, but it's rarely been the defining part of a confrontation. And more often than not, it is overcome quickly, and usually only used to supplement another power or bit of strength. It's only now, when Luffy's facing an enemy that requires a new form of haki to harm in general, that it's become so undeniably important to the fight. And even having said all that, it still wasn't the only tool, just the best one for the job.

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Ultimately, what I'm saying comes down to a very simple fact: Throughout most of shounen wherein a similar concept is used, it's typically the ultimate or most important part of any series that comes up. I won't name any in particular, I'm sure everyone reading this can fill in the blanks just fine (please don't name any), but that cliche seems to be the only reason haki gets the reputation it does. I say this because, based only on what the series of One Piece presents to us and nothing else, it has never had an elevated status before the inception and revelation of conqueror's coating and the bonus it gives. Having said that as well, conqueror's is perfectly acceptable. Haki is a finite resource that can be overcome through sheer physical prowess without using it at all. Conqueror's seems to be the only outlier, and that is a matter of just being chosen/fated/having good genes/whatever. That's perfectly fine, because the world isn't fair, and that's a reasonable phenomenon to have happen.

People will be upset about the whole chosen by fate/destiny bit, but it's literally no different to being upset at Usain Bolt having his genes, or Michael Phelps having his. One single outlying aspect of this entire, broad range of ability that grants the 1% of the 1% of the 0.0001% of the One Piece world extra ability is perfectly acceptable, because the other vast majority of the technique takes drastic skill to be viable at the upper heights of the One Piece world, vs devil fruits being almost automatic wins in so many other cases.

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Final TLDR: Haki never broke any kind of power scaling or series mechanics, it never bent rules too far, and until the absolute highest peaks of strength, it's never been the power that would decide a fight that wasn't a foregone conclusion already. Due to this, and due to it making certain character interactions and fights more viable, along with giving a power directly tied to character growth, it has been an absolute net positive for the series. The tiny downside of conqueror's being a random thing does not change this.

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@young geyser ❤️

terse vector
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Ah nvm

fast kite
#

but up until Whole Cake Island it remained basically just a nice power to have in addition to devil fruits and martial arts.
I think this is one of the main problems really. I'll go into later, but haki has really exponentially grown in its relevance at a worrying rate imo. Prior to WCI like you said, it was not really some super relevant thing. It was very much supplementary until we got to G4 I'd say.

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and its relevance only grew in Wano, to the point where Zoro gets a tool exclusively for training haki, and all of the Luffy stuff.

desert wyvern
#

I'd argue that even in WCI, its importance was more as a general bonus and not as a main idea. As I said in my post there, even in WCI the fight with Katakuri never came down to who has the better/stronger haki, and instead how well Luffy could circumvent that very ability

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But, I can't deny in Wano's it's definitely gotten the spotlight that I talked about, where it sort of became the key to victory

fast kite
#

I was gonna respond but I think I'll just write up my own thing.

terse vector
# desert wyvern **Final TLDR**: Haki never broke any kind of power scaling or series mechanics, ...

Umm saying "never broke any kind of series mechanics" wouldn't be correct ig. Repeating the same thing from yesterday but that substitutes for specific matchups being required for fights or exploiting the drawbacks of the fruit, or having to use seastone for it. The whole statement of "the battle of fire and smoke would never end" as said by ace in Alabasta losts its value.

Also the the ingenuity of devil fruit system and the ingenuity of the devil fruit user to properly use his devil fruit are different. Granted haki is just another tool in his arsenal for him to use to complement his devil fruit, but the ingenuity of the devil fruit system, the advantage of the df being rare, and all is lost. People might say it would be boring as it would just be decided on who had better luck for devil fruits. But it adds to the battle being more calculated, hence unpredictable and hype, and some opportunity for piracy for devil fruits and such, like seen with doffy for ope ope no mi and by Roger's crew getting the devil fruit that buggy later ate and like shanks's crew getting gomu gomu no mi which luffy ate. And as I already mentioned yesterday too about the relevance of devil fruit getting more, which the series had been lacking

desert wyvern
#

Umm saying "never broke any kind of series mechanics" wouldn't be correct ig. Repeating the same thing from yesterday but that substitutes for specific matchups being required for fights or exploiting the drawbacks of the fruit, or having to use seastone for it. The whole statement of "the battle of fire and smoke would never end" as said by ace in Alabasta losts its value.

It doesn't lose its value. Neither of them had haki.

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The existence of haki doesn't suddenly recolor the interactions of people who don't have it

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Also the the ingenuity of devil fruit system and the ingenuity of the devil fruit user to properly use his devil fruit are different. Granted haki is just another tool in his arsenal for him to use to complement his devil fruit, but the ingenuity of the devil fruit system, the advantage of the df being rare, and all is lost.

We can look at literally every single fight post-skip and see that this statement rarely, if ever, holds up at all

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Can you cite any specific examples of haki doing what you're stating here?

terse vector
desert wyvern
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Sure, which isn't a bad thing. It means there is now no default matchup that will 100% always work with the entire world, that's an absolute positive.

terse vector
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Well it is a bad thing as the matchups would require proper planning and other tactics which would have been there to make the battles more unpredictable and interesting

desert wyvern
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Likewise, it's a defined skill level that is required to not only use haki, but use haki effectively enough for that statement to actually ring true. Example: Give Smoker haki in Alabasta and there's no guarantee he'd still actually be able to be effective against Ace still. It's so extremely relative that even in these future interactions, like with Luffy and the Boa sisters, haki was almost irrelevant pretty fast into the fight.

desert wyvern
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There has been no loss of ingenuity in battling due to the presence of haki

terse vector
desert wyvern
#

The presence of a logia isn't relevant either, we're discussing devil fruits. Against a devil fruit and pure physical strength, Luffy's that is, haki failed entirely.

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And in that fight, Luffy had to use a good bit of creativity to further his victory

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You can substitute him with Ace or anyone else, the result could've very well been the same because haki has never been an absolute.

terse vector
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Well all my before points is being about how the logias would require specific matchups and other tactics, has lost its relevance as haki can hit the logias

desert wyvern
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The kind of devil fruit shouldn't be relevant to this particular discussion, only the interaction of haki to fruits in general.

terse vector
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The kind would be important as one of the significance of haki, as said by even Rayleigh, was to hit the logias

desert wyvern
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But that evened playing field still requires a great deal of training and dedication to be made worth using. Just having haki has never been the key to things, as we see very clearly with Tashigi and Monet.

hollow wing
# terse vector Ah nvm

Yeah basically it’s just the idea that armament is pushed off to the side and not talked about for it’s other qualities

terse vector
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I'd consider Katakuri as an outlier there as it was his haki which enabled his intangibleness

hollow wing
#

Like people just say “hit harder and beat logia”

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When there’s more to it

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I will say though, Oda makes it harder when he introduces 2 new cool armament concepts for the final boss, but then throws them out for Cocting

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But I digress

desert wyvern
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No, his fruit in general allowed it. He used his haki with his fruit, that's actually a shining example of requiring creativity even with haki in play. And better, even with haki there Luffy still had to think his way around things

terse vector
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I am not disagreeing that there isn't more to it. I also said above that its just another tool in their arsenal to complement the devil fruits with their creativity

hollow wing
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Yh im not saying you disagree I’m just explaining my point

terse vector
#

Oh sorry. I added reply to both you and bean in the same message

#

You are confusing ingenuity of the devil fruit system and ingenuity of the user to use the potential of their devil fruit to the maximum

#

I never said that the second is lost

desert wyvern
#

Well, the latter is the only thing that really matters here. The devil fruit system hasn't been touched by haki at all, it's still just fine the way it is

#

The whole needing an elemental advantage to defeat a logia was just one possible weakness for them, it was never the end all when considering them.

young geyser
#

If haki didn't exist, katakuri could also still do katakuri things LUL Just have him so much faster than Luffy that it requires Snakeman-level speed to beat-out his speed at morphing

desert wyvern
#

^

#

That's one of the reasons I call haki a positive, it's not filling a role that other things couldn't conceivably, and it's also something that can be beaten without the other party even having it

young geyser
#

that's a point against haki existing and why it doesnt increase variety in fights

desert wyvern
#

Ah, I see. I'd say to that, variety doesn't change in general

#

If anything, the only increase would be from the fact that people who couldn't affect or fight devil fruit users now have a chance to actually use their abilities against them in some cases

terse vector
desert wyvern
#

That's about it, though. No real increase or decrease in variety of fighting, since ultimately a punch with haki is just a punch with a little more oomph to it.

young geyser
#

Hence why the armor abiliy and spatial awareness, 2 things that wouldn't be reasonable to happen without haki is good, while everything else, is bad CrocoKid

desert wyvern
#

Ahh, I just read your argument. I disagree completely about using seastone instead of haki, that would've been a horrible addition to the series for more than a few reasons. Not least of which being that seastone is supposed to be a rare, hard to come by and incredibly hard to work with substance

#

You mentioned future sight being a bad thing. But, we were shown why that isn't the case. Not only does it take the strongest of the strong to actually achieve it, it's an extremely delicate ability and was overcome with pure speed.

terse vector
desert wyvern
#

But those prospects were never dropped. The only thing we don't have now is people scrambling to find some weakness to a logia, which would be kind of terrible to have to go through every single time they fight one

#

Worse, most of them wouldn't possibly apply. How could you even remotely fight Kizaru? Or Akainu? He instantly boils water and turns it into steam, throwing it on him doesn't work like Crocodile.

#

Hell, how do you fight Caribou?

terse vector
# desert wyvern Ahh, I just read your argument. I disagree completely about using seastone inste...

wouldn't that make it more fun/interesting due to its rarity. like I said in my main arguement:

Then there's the logistics of seastone production and distribution around the world, it is extremely rare in most cases and only obtainable with high potential of monetary means, which means the use of it remains very rare. And this is a positive thing IMO. As I said in the above paragraph, it would have more prospects of piracy, cuz like what Nami said in the sky island about them being pirate and taking the gold. Buying the seastone with money, or looting the supply of seastone. That would add to more sea battles, more ships raids, ambushes, baiting other ships for seastone. I might be forgetting some key moments while typing this, but did we have something that would feel like piracy after sabaody, or even Skypiea?

desert wyvern
#

No, it's like...actually rare. Not devil fruit rare where every crew has one. We've seen a small handful of places with seastone at all, let alone enough to be worth taking, let alone enough to make weapons with to any decent degree.

terse vector
desert wyvern
#

No, seastone's been in the story for longer than haki has. Oda made it a truly, actually rare thing, he stuck to its scarcity perfectly

young geyser
#

Doesnt take a lot of seastone for it to be effective

terse vector
#

No, Bean. i mean, wasn't that SEastone is only (correct me if I am wrong, did hawkins said only or one of the major) in wano thing said only in wano, so like in chapter 900+?

hollow wing
#

Wapometal is the closest thing we have to what you’re proposing, in terms of a material in which its distribution may be significant in the series

#

Heck it already is

#

Arguably

#

But yeah we’re wayyyyy past seastone being that

terse vector
#

its just the rarity of the seastone makes the rush for the supply of seastone, the battle for the supply of seastone more interesting. planning to ambush the delivery route, or using the delivery of seastone as a bait to trap the crew. there were infinite possibilities which would have still made it interesting

young geyser
#

And people getting seastone upgrades during timeskip isn't even something that's unfeasible.

The mention of seastone vs haki is because the story would shift to having a focus on seastone just like it has for haki starting with amazon lily.

terse vector
#

exactly

young geyser
#

At least the people that would feasibly use it, like Luffy, zoro, sanji, franky, brook

hollow wing
#

Really still feels like Logias are so uncommon that a large scale seastone focus would become moot

young geyser
#

seastone is useful vs all devil fruit users

#

not just logias

terse vector
#

^

hollow wing
#

The issue is seastone fully negates powers

#

You use one power system to remove another

young geyser
#

Fights aren't gonna be just be locking someone in seastone handcuffs

marble saddle
#

So I'm actually going to agree with Okama here. I think the extend of which we already see it is due to it's scarcity and not it just being simply overlooked as good combat

hollow wing
#

In a fight, once seastone is applied, there goes the DF nuance, as opposed to Haki being a constant throughout the fight

terse vector
young geyser
terse vector
#

^

hollow wing
#

Then you have a variety of Smokers I guess

#

With various seastone weapons

young geyser
#

Exactly

hollow wing
#

I can dig it, but that doesn’t mean I’d prefer it over what we have

young geyser
#

Variety of weapons and versatility vs punching harder is a win for me KingShrug

devout galleon
#

Punching harder notagain

hollow wing
#

Variety is DFs and the application of Haki with said DFs

terse vector
#

not to forget about the battle for more seastone supply that it would bring

devout galleon
#

Luffy has always been a punch harder fighter

terse vector
hollow wing
#

East Blue Luffy actually isn’t punch harder

#

That came Lucci and onward

young geyser
#

and there is no variety of application of haki that cant just happen naturally anyway

terse vector
devout galleon
#

he won against crocodile and Enel. The two fights people praise for being creative- was luffy punching them really really hard

young geyser
#

So basically we went from creative and punching hard to just punching hard

#

which do you prefer

devout galleon
terse vector
hollow wing
#

Katakuri was actually punch faster Adam crocokidDistorted

young geyser
#

Gear 4 can easily exist through writing without the use of haki if oda so chose

#

So can everything katakuri did

#

but he chose to write it all with haki in mind because that's the direction he chose to take the story

terse vector
#

hmm yeah

#

but well even with that, it wouldn't become an issue. its just basically equivalent to more physical strength. it being able to hit logia is the downside which it bring

hollow wing
#

After Wano ends and we start getting into Vegapunk and BB stuff I feel like we’ll have a better appreciation of the Haki/DF balance Oda has here

terse vector
#

maybe

hollow wing
#

Cuz honestly, Wano is a very Haki focused arc

young geyser
#

I dont really think it hitting logias is a downside, just that what it's mostly used for is the more abundant thing we see (Being used as a punch harder tool) which doesnt outway the positives

terse vector
hollow wing
#

Oh that I agree

young geyser
#

Can still hope for a seastone upgrade for franky or usopp 🤞

hollow wing
#

We’re in the one place Seastone should’ve been given relevance

#

But zip

terse vector
hollow wing
#

Shows Oda’s priorities

terse vector
#

since timeskip, basically since a bit before that, the crew hasn't done much "piracy" unless I am misremembering

hollow wing
#

Interestingly enough though, here in Wano we have a non-Haki related buff for Sanji

terse vector
#

well that is cuz haki related buff would feel redundant and well not suitable for him

#

his character arc was given more priority than haki, and that I appreciate about it NamiPray

desert wyvern
desert wyvern
young geyser
#

and neither does seastone

desert wyvern
#

Blackbeard doesn't remove all ability to fight, he just takes away the fruit power itself. Seastone ends the fight if enough is applied

#

Seastone does indeed have that potential, though. Even if you want to say they'd have to fight it out until that point, that would be 100% of the goal of every fight with a fruit user ever after its introduction

young geyser
#

except it's scarce like you said, so not every enemy is going to have it, so that wont be the goal of most fights

desert wyvern
#

We go from getting dynamic, creative fights to "Who can touch with seastone first?!" And, while it's true that purity and amount are things that have to be taken into account, the fact remains that seastone in any quantity noticeably weakens the user. Unless we're talking about people like Kaido or Big Mom or Katakuri, seastone/brass knuckles would pretty much guarantee Luffy victory every single time in just a few blows. Each hit is their stamina being sapped

young geyser
#

Even doflamingo who definitely has access to seastone didnt use it in his fight with law

desert wyvern
#

Sure, because he didn't need to. But you're presenting a scenario in which seastone is the focus without haki existing, in which case that's absolutely how it would've gone, and even more so on Law's side since that would be his only way to deal with Doflamingo at all.

young geyser
#

see: Luffy literally have infinite amount

desert wyvern
#

Which has never been the case.

#

And sure, you can say Oda can write anything in, but that's just more of the story that has to be changed to fill the gap that haki left

young geyser
#

You have to think of the big picture in this new world we're creating without haki

desert wyvern
#

It's not just like it's a small rewrite, most fights and encounters would have to be changed to include seastone being the winning factor here

young geyser
#

Not all of them are gonna be seastone being the winning factor either

desert wyvern
#

If the change is that heavy, is it really worth saying it's better than the current system? 'Cause we can rewrite things all day, but in a world without haki, it really does come down to who can touch whom with their seastone weapon first

#

Sure, just like haki isn't now, but it'd be drastically more common because it's the greatest surefire key to victory there is in the series if weapons can be made of it

#

Like, it's an immediate end to any fight that isn't with an Emperor or potentially an admiral.

young geyser
#

hody: No
Caesar: Yes
Doflamingo: Have doflamingo use his strings to pulls off luffy's weapons.
Katakuri: Yes but that's not nearly what the fight would be about
Kaido/Big mom: Not really

#

Oda already had to do a big rewrite with haki anyway

#

Plenty of Shonen that are extremely well-regarded where basically a good amount of fights are 1 shots, hell that's what most of zoro's fights tend to be

#

although only caesar might be a 1 shot

desert wyvern
#

Caesar's actually was ended with seastone in the end, too. Hody wouldn't, since he has no fruit power. Lucci's would be ended immediately. Doflamingo's strings being able to take away Luffy's weapons wouldn't make sense, if he can't rip away Law's sword I'm absolutely sure that's not going to be his way to win here

#

Zoro's fights are rarely one shots, they're usually a struggle for him

young geyser
#

He beat kaku in 2 hits

#

daz bones in 1

desert wyvern
#

No, Daz Bones's only injury was from one. He beats Kaku with more than just two hits

young geyser
#

fmi guy in 1, pica in 1

desert wyvern
#

Pica was also not in one

#

FMI, yeh, that's fair. That was the show off fight though, so it makes sense

young geyser
#

maybe 2 cause i guess 1 of his pre-final slashes made him cough blood

desert wyvern
#

Are you just counting what ends the fight?

fast kite
#

He only hits Pica himself once.

young geyser
#

Yeah, basically the same way you're assuming these fights would be. You're imagination just seems to be limited in how these fights would go

desert wyvern
#

'Cause most of Zoro's fights have him displaying a great deal of techniques before he's ever able to actually end the duel

#

Oh no, the problem isn't how the fights would go, it's that the end goal for all of them would always just be who can get touched with seastone the most/least

young geyser
#

except that isnt true either

desert wyvern
#

If you give Luffy, Sanji, Zoro, Franky and Usopp seastone weapons, 9/10 times that's how the fight would have to go

young geyser
#

If kaido's club was made of seastone, you think that's how you would be judging his fight vs luffy?

desert wyvern
#

*While removing the existence of haki, I should add

young geyser
#

pre 1009

#

"Wow kaido has hit luffy with 10 seastone club hits and luffy hit kaido with 2 seastone glove hits"

desert wyvern
#

Yeh, absolutely. Because that would completely nullify all of Luffy's ability to defend and attack every time he's hit. There wouldn't even be a fight, Kaido would just put his kanabo down on him and beat him to the ground, much like Smoker does

#

Like, we do have a character who uses a seastone weapon that presents the very problem I'm describing

young geyser
#

seastone being like a club would literally act the same as haki does

#

exactly the same way, in fact

#

Unless you want to argue some rubbish like

#

"Seastone coating rubs off on luffy's skin and weakens him"

desert wyvern
#

It would not, because it may remove the defense of him, but it doesn't remove his powers entirely. It doesn't remove his stamina and ability to use haki, either

#

That's the big thing here, Luffy can actually defend against haki. He has 0 defense whatsoever against seastone

marble saddle
#

this argument is actually making me realize how important haki has been to the series

desert wyvern
#

Gear 4th, boundman? That elasticity he can force around his body even when someone hits him with armament? That flies completely out of the window if he's hit with seastone. In fact, all of his gears do.

young geyser
desert wyvern
#

That is the massive difference, haki may allow fruit defenses to be bypassed, but it doesn't render fruits almost useless against it.

#

Doflamingo's strings, for example, can't cut seastone. Kaido probably can't break it if we're being honest, Big Mom doesn't lose out too much but Kaido doesn't get his zoan form at all if he's hit with it

terse vector
terse vector
young geyser
#

Sounds like we get body-suit piece, everyone looks hella fresh, and now you have to find a way to get around the body-suit to get the skin-seastone contact

marble saddle
desert wyvern
#

Haki is an added effect to get around things, but doesn't ultimately change the battlefield. Seastone absolutely does, as we've seen from the likes of Smoker, whose main fighting style is based around trying to disable fruit users just to win. That's basically how it would always go if they were just defaulted to using seastone, there's no huge drive to actually overcome these more powerful people. It's just disable them so we get the free handicap.

#

Because no matter what, that is a handicap. No matter how small the amount, if it's enough to be viable in a fight, it's a handicap to them.

young geyser
#

and it's still not this world you describe

desert wyvern
#

And having said that, it's not like everyone will be immune to fruits or anything like that just because they're swinging it around, it's just that as soon as there's one touch the danger has basically gone away. It just becomes who can touch whom with the weapon first.

desert wyvern
young geyser
#

And regardless, the only thing we're really arguing about atm is just the ability to touch logias

marble saddle
desert wyvern
#

After all, Kaido's defenses are entirely fruit based, and seastone removes that entirely.

young geyser
#

Smoker as a captain was using it

desert wyvern
#

Seastone? Sure, they could use it. They didn't.

young geyser
#

Yeah, just like people in this new world might not

#

just like how people dont use haki in our haki world

desert wyvern
#

I never said seastone wasn't viable as a combat thing, it totally is. It's just if we're saying haki somehow removes some variety or nuance from a fight, seastone does it tenfold.

young geyser
#

which is even listed in your argument btw

desert wyvern
#

Can you quote pls?

young geyser
#

Seastone doesn't remove nuance of the fight, it would honestly make most of them more exciting

desert wyvern
#

Not sure which one you're referring to

young geyser
#

it's your first paragraph

desert wyvern
#

It does, though. There wouldn't be any need to learn these new skills, reach these new heights, sacrifice themselves to get so much stronger so fast if they could just use seastone and not have to deal with, for example, Kaido's devil fruit making him invincible.

young geyser
#

You basically assume everyone will use seastone in this seastone world goro and i are creating

#

but not everyone uses haki in this haki world oda has created

desert wyvern
#

Well yeah, I'm assuming that because that's what you were stating in your post.

Overall, the story could have gone a route that involves mass use of seastone to overcome the hurdles that haki set to ease. Seastone coated knuckles or glove for luffy, seastone tinted swords, seastone tipped boots, etc were all that really need to be done, and have the seastone act as a substance that can essentially be the armor I talked about in my first paragraph

^ This is what i'm referring to. You're stating all of these seastone things would be in play, how do we not get the battlefield I'm describing?

young geyser
#

They can still be scarce like haki is scarce

#

just getting them over timeskip for example

#

maybe getting upgrade when they reach wano

desert wyvern
#

Haki isn't scarce at all, though

young geyser
#

it is though

#

basically no one in paradise has it

desert wyvern
#

Well, there's an entire island of fighters who exclusively use haki in Paradise

young geyser
#

that's calm belt technically

desert wyvern
#

There's also the vice admirals, most of whom seem to operate in Paradise as opposed to the New World from what we've seen. There's Sentoumaru, there really isn't a terrible shortage of haki users in Paradise

young geyser
#

but you're just splitting hairs

#

you very well understand how scarce haki is

desert wyvern
#

I don't think naming several large groups of people who use armament haki is really splitting hairs here, the strawhats don't have to fight most of them but they're very much there

#

Haki genuinely isn't scarce, it's an ability everyone has access to. It's not like every single person has it, but being rare in Paradise doesn't change the fact that just about every fighter seems to have it in the New World if nothing else, to the point where random no-name background characters are stated to have it in groups too

#

I can't say genuinely not scarce, but its scarcity is being overstated here, it's not like seastone by any means.

young geyser
#

the seastone that is being shipped out of wano to doflamingo who can sell it to whomever?

desert wyvern
#

Now having said that, in your scenario, you're actually already giving at least Luffy the seastone equipment of various kinds. How does that not lend itself to his fights then becoming how often he can land hits/keep the seastone on people when he's being given boots, gloves and such?

#

To Doflamingo who doesn't seem to sell it to many people, yes

#

The seastone from one single location that gets shipped out, vs every living thing on the planet having the potential for haki by default, literally just needing to choose to use it.

#

By any definition, haki is absolutely significantly more plentiful than seastone in this series.

young geyser
#

more like it could be significantly more plentiful

#

but realistically isnt

marble saddle
desert wyvern
#

Worse, seastone seems to be mostly used for binding, not actual combat too.

young geyser
desert wyvern
# young geyser but realistically isnt

No, realistically it is. Even in the New World here, we've seen far more haki users than instances of seastone. Doflamingo isn't filling the world with the stuff, the only people who ever even seem to have it are extremely high ranking pirates or the government.

young geyser
desert wyvern
#

Sure, in one single organization.

#

One organization has that much seastone, that we know of.

young geyser
#

Yeah, and there's no reason it cant be more

#

Once we learneed that orochi/kaido sell to doflamingo, seastone can be found anywhere realistically

#

haki users, not so much

desert wyvern
#

Yes, I completely agree. But you're stating it as if it's a fact, I don't disagree with the possibility of seastone getting to be more plentiful, but from what we've seen of the series it is an extremely controlled trade that does not reach very far at all.

marble saddle
desert wyvern
#

Now, if you want to address the possibility of seastone being more plentiful, I'd actually agree with you there. The only reason it isn't right now is literally just because of the super tight trade with Wano, it's not that there isn't enough in the world

#

But if we're talking about how the series currently presents it, there's no angle where seastone is more actively used than haki at the moment. At the least, I can give you that a few groups seem to be able to get their hands on seastone cuffs, but unfortunately that's about the best that most of the world seems able to do. It wasn't even until Wano that we get full on chains, iirc? And Impel Down were the first and only ones to have seastone bullets until we get to Wano as well, which is just the source of the entire world's supply of it anyway.

young geyser
#

But yeah, Luffy getting some from rayleigh/boa, Zoro getting something from Mihawk, Sanji from Ivankov, Franky finding something in the lab, and Brook on his tour could all reasonably get seastone over the timeskip

desert wyvern
desert wyvern
young geyser
#

I mean, in reality, it doesn't really matter how scarce it is to me in term of the original point I made, it's just that some strawhats get it over TS, and it doesnt nearly ruin fights as easily as you think it does

desert wyvern
#

Worse, haki's potential is actually infinitely greater if you want to go there. Because every living thing has haki innately. Seastone comes from one island and has to be bought, purchased, and worked with. Those three things actually completely shut down that possibility in the series now, the shit's expensive and incredibly hard to shape.

#

Yeah, I agree they could totally replace haki entirely with it, that's a fair point

terse vector
desert wyvern
#

I just don't like that it becomes basically the handicap. Luffy's victories lessen a good bit when it comes down to how much he can weaken the other person, vs him straight up becoming stronger or thinking his way through the fight

young geyser
desert wyvern
#

Most people don't know seastone exists, either

terse vector
desert wyvern
#

Well, it being expensive means people aren't going to have it enough to actually steal either LUL

young geyser
#

Steal from marine ship, ezpz

terse vector
#

^

young geyser
#

destroy marine ship near jaya, have the seastone-coated hull get salvaged 😎

desert wyvern
#

If they always have a full trove of weapons on board made of seastone, sure

#

They aren't going to go diving for the stuff, and those ships don't exactly survive most fights LUL

terse vector
#

and plenty of other opportunities. HIjack a delivery ship. plan such attacks, or the marines using the seastone as bait for capturing pirates like using ope ope for bait as doffy (which failed but still)

marble saddle
# terse vector well it wouldn't make it obsolete as the rarity of it plays a huge factor. it wo...

yeah I mean in that case its fine. My point here was that is if the reality of what we see seastone usage is the current climate. So to suggest an alternative would have to increase the production/distribution. As long as it's balanced so that it doesn't obsolete DF then there's no need for a larger power system. So the series would need to factor in it's own equilibrium to keep fights exciting

terse vector
desert wyvern
#

Yeh, but the bottom of the ship is the part they can't take LUL

young geyser
#

Salvage SanjiDab, now Jinbe SanjiDab

terse vector
#

^^

thin marlin
#

this is so specific

desert wyvern
#

True true, Jinbe could go down. But then the problem arises, how do they shape it?

#

It's something that seems to be Vegapunk/Wano specific.

young geyser
#

Get some gorilla glue and glue it onto some gloves, some shoes, and a sword sheath

terse vector
#

well, that's just another decision that oda took and its only something which was highlited post timeskip, or more so just only in wano.
if he was going seastone route instead of haki, taht parameter wouldn't even exist

terse vector
marble saddle
#

guess he saw seastone as a cop out

desert wyvern
#

It's back in Enies Lobby that we're told it's something the marines were only able to get in the last couple of years, and only because they have Vegapunk telling them how to do it

desert wyvern
terse vector
desert wyvern
#

But yeh, before we even get the full haki introduction and scope, when we get barely our single first glimpse of armament existing at all, we're told how much of an achievement it is that the marines get seastone at all.

#

No, it was reinforced in Wano because Wano's the source of the world's seastone

terse vector
#

hmm btw do you remember which chapter that was? not doubting you but wanna read that as it's soemthing I missed

desert wyvern
#

It'll be in the 430's, let me see...

terse vector
#

ah that much would suffice. thanks

desert wyvern
#

Chapter 433

#

@latent sinew This isn't the channel for that.

terse vector
steel thunder
#

smoker also mentions the fact that they are only found in one place in the entire world back in alabasta, telling us how rare they are

quiet totem
steel thunder
#

i think the chapter is 169-170, near that

terse vector
#

seems I am forgetting stuff. time for reread

desert wyvern
#

Ah, I forgot that was a thing too. So, the scarcity of seastone really has been a fairly consistent theme in the series in that case. But having said that, we could have a hypothetical where more people have it, but obviously just Doflamingo selling it doesn't mean it will be widespread by any means

steel thunder
#

yup, 169

unknown.png
desert wyvern
#

Shackles, sure, a few folks of extreme important seem able to get their hands on a few of them at a time. A small few. Bullets, swords and such? That seems out of the reach of most, and Doflamingo's clients seem to be high payers. Seastone is locked behind a paywall, haki is free for all

terse vector
#

bean. i don't see that chapter talking about the rarity of the seastone or difficulty to work with. it just has this

0433-004.png
thin marlin
#

thats marines under training talking about vegapunk and how they are using in their own ships lmaoo

terse vector
#

it doesn't speak for "something marines were only able to get in last couple of years"

steel thunder
#

well the panel I posted is still enough

terse vector
#

well yeah. was just pointing out that

steel thunder
#

and they havent been trading with wano country for any longer than 25-ish years as far as we know

#

so it is a relatively new thing for the marines, that i would assume since only wano can produce it

thin marlin
#

yeah i know your point is void because of who is talking in that context, its marines who are explaining the fact to the pirate who has no clue about it, just think about it, the marines have the power enough to proceed to produce seastone for their use

terse vector
#

well the thing was the discussion was going on about "seastone being difficult to work with" which I said it was only in wano that it was elaborated upon that. Bean said about that panel spoke about seastone being difficult to work with but it didn't, so was just asking that.

#

wasn't trying to assert a point then, was just asking for confirmation to something he said before which I seemed to have missed

thin marlin
#

all right

terse vector
# desert wyvern Chapter 433

ah. so agreed with the scarcity being something that was consistent throughout the series, which seemed ot have gone over my head.
but as with the original point of the discussion, which was about salvaging and using seastone. was the case of working with seastone specified before too or was it just left ambiguous to be elaborated upon more?

#

idr anything mentioned about the difficulty of working with seastone except for Hawkin's statement to law in wano.

marble saddle
#

you don't actually have to do anything for seastone though right? Rather its bullets, cuffs, coating, etc. The use is in it's material only, or no?

terse vector
#

LuffyThink didn't get what you meant

marble saddle
#

i guess I'm confused how seastone is used

terse vector
#

seastone is just a mineral that you extract and use. well the factors about it being uncuttable and stuff are there but yea its basically that but the extraction and shaping it into objects is difficult

marble saddle
#

so how could that be difficult to use?

burnt lion
#

Hawkins’s statement was about how difficult it is to forge it into shapes like nails

marble saddle
#

gotcha

terse vector
fast kite
#

jesus fucking christ I wrote a lot. Sorry guys.

terse vector
#

no worries choc. fun to read. you can post, won't interrupt

fast kite
#

is this convo over? I'll wait until everyone is done here.

marble saddle
#

yeah now lets see it

fast kite
#

So for me, haki is probably a net negative, and a lot of it has to do with how it is being presented in the series.

Something I think should be noted, is the nature of haki. By its nature, it's very flexible. What do I mean by this? In terms of how it has been executed, it was never really established how someone really goes about getting haki, outside of randomly awakening it in certain contexts. (Though we did see a small little montage of Rayleigh depriving Luffy of his basic senses seemingly in order to train/awaken his observation haki, which I do appreciate.) It is also flexible in that it is a very intangible source of power. Here's where one of my issues with its execution comes in. By its intangible and flexible nature, it really can grow in any way. It can manifest however, because there's no real established rules, and even the rules that are established are so loosely done so that they can be spun around. It grows exponentially when situations demand it, and as the series furthers into the climax, haki is slowly becoming the "end all be all" that people said it wasn't for the majority of the series. Which it wasn't. but it is becoming so. This is due in part to that flexible, intangible nature.

#

Now I'm not going to say this is wholly bad. I think having a system by which anyone can compete with anyone, is good. It's beneficial in that, for someone like Zoro to fight someone like King, he is not winning on a strict power front, and you can't have Zoro randomly become 3x buffer mid-fight. So in order to compensate we have a system like haki. but the issue is haki allows Zoro this absurdist power of effectively becoming 3x buffer mid-fight. I am fine with it being supplementary, I am fine with it being an equalizer. The issue is it is enabling this absurdist growth with "haki bloom". The only time we had anything remotely similar in a pre-haki world was Luffy's multiple power ups in order to go to a point of being able to beat Lucci, where both power ups had pretty serious downsides, while haki's downside is...? You have a "limited" resource of it? One which has never really tangibly been explored outside of Luffy using it in G4, and even that is kinda fading away with how liberally he can use it now. This absurdism is further showcased when we compare Rayleigh saying it takes ~2 years to learn the basics, and in less than 2 days, Luffy pulls out advanced applications because his "haki bloom" and takes less than 2 weeks to get it down pat.

#

I think this kind of absurdism is starting to ruin any kind of tension and also creativity of fights. Haki has had some cool applications with G4, and Katakuri using it to be psuedo-invincible. But at the same time, a good majority of the Katakuri fight was not about Luffy thinking about how to beat Katakuri at all. It was effectively a training montage of him waiting for his absurdist power up, then using a technique he had in his back pocket to pull out a win. And a similar thing is happening with the Kaido fight, where Luffy loses, but instead of restrategizing like he did with Croc, or even Lucci where he was forced to think of new, creative of applying his devil fruit. Now he just gets absurd power boosts, copies what Kaido does and now he fights with him. We can observe this change with Zoro as well, where it's less about swordsmanship now, and it's more about "how well can I use my haki to win via the medium of my sword(s)", and I have no doubts this is going to happen with Sanji as well (though you can ignore this as not a real point since it hasn't happened yet and is purely speculation). Similarly happened with the scabbards but in the opposite direction. Despite showing the ability to fully pierce through Kaido, arbitrarily we are told they lack the ability to cut deep, simply due to a lack of good enough haki.

#

Now I've focused on both armament and conqueror's for a bit here, but let's talk about observation as well, as while honestly it is my favourite application of the 3, is not without faults either imo (though I think it's pretty minor).
I'm going to look at 3 key fights here: Satori, Enel, Katakuri. In all cases, a strong advantage the opponents held was their ability to use observation haki better than Luffy. In all cases, a different method was used to beat that. In the case of Satori, it was abusing imperfect usage of the technique to lock him down and prevent him from being able to dodge. Very creative and cool. In the case of Enel, Luffy attacked randomly to remove intent so Enel couldn't see the attacks coming. Very creative and cool. In the case of Katakuri, Luffy attacked relentlessly with high frequency and speed that Kata simply couldn't dodge everything. (uses a similar tactic against sandersonia as well, though it's mostly just "im fast"). Also very creative and cool. The issue comes with everything else. Observation rarely plays a role outside of when there's a clear difference in proficiency when using it, and the person should use a different tactic to overcome it. It's effectively pointless in those situations. It's not like people with high levels of observation who fight each other are constantly dodging, which is what you'd imagine would happen. It's just a normal fight. It's not really adding anything creative outside of when there's a difference in skill.
TL;DR Haki has enabled absurdist power ups that turn fights into waiting games for those power ups instead of formulating different strategies. The lack of established rules enable it to be whatever the situation demands. It has introduced some cool things, but overall, I think it has had very poor execution and is moving into territory where fights are actively becoming boring.

#

<@&884917716333506621>

terse vector
#

finally someone else for negative NamiPray

fast kite
terse vector
fast kite
#

but it never actually really played a part. Luffy notes it as a strategy he could use, but says he doesn't want to.

marble saddle
#

I like how this argument criticizes haki from a pre-established and development perspective

terse vector
fast kite
#

In a world building kinda sense, yes, it's there. but practically speaking, it's only really ever shown through Luffy.

terse vector
#

yeah

fast kite
#

I think if Luffy actually DID take that strategy, it would've been really good. Hell, if it gets used on anyone else, I might change my stance.

terse vector
#

hmm yeah

devout galleon
#

Wasn’t it shown with cracker too?

terse vector
#

yeah nice to see another point of view which didn't involve logia and seastone like mine and adam's did

terse vector
fast kite
#

Nope, Cracker just gets pissed off and stops using the strategy which was working.

devout galleon
#

No he was running out of energy towards the end of the fight too

fast kite
#

he was more getting frustrated, but sure. He was running out of energy, unclear if that correlates to haki.

terse vector
#

well he didn't exactly use haki. running out of strength/stamina and out of haki is different rokaya

#

overuse of haki has only been presented with Gear 4 as its a serious buff and limits/downsides should be there
and its good too, but would have been more consistent if he did the same with kata and others

fast kite
devout galleon
#

He had haki on the biscuit soldiers, it wasn’t just creating them that made him tired

terse vector
#

MoriaSus did he

fast kite
#

yeah but he was more frustrated than tired.

terse vector
#

as far as I remember it wasn't haki which made the biscuit soldiers hard. if it was, then nami raining wouldn't have affected it

burnt lion
#

Nah haki was coating his biscuits, luffy remarked on it

marble saddle
#

@fast kite @terse vector I notice you both were kinda hesitant to criticize observation haki. Do you think that application is creatively superior then the otheres?

devout galleon
#

Water still affects armament haki

terse vector
fast kite
#

Observation haki is essentially just the trope of experienced fighters being able to read opponents moves. You can say it is tropey, but it's not bad, and it's implemented fairly decently.

terse vector
steel thunder
fast kite
#

Haki was coating his initial biscuit I think. The one he used to protect himself.

steel thunder
#

doesnt need to be explicitly stated lol, the cracker fight is proof

fast kite
#

but I don't think it was used on the other ones.

steel thunder
#

that water works on haki lol

devout galleon
terse vector
#

hmm my bad.
couldn't it be interpreted as water softened the biscuit made the haki idk useless/unstable hence luffy can attack it rather than water nullifying the effect of haki. going with this as we haven't seen water nullyfing haki in any place except that

fast kite
#

water doesn't remove haki though. Making something semi-liquid doesn't make haki useless on it. See: Katakuri. His whole fruit is basically semi-liquid.

#

I think haki was just used on that 1st biscuit. Which is the one Cracker himself was in. Once he was out of the biscuit armour idk if he was applying it or not, because if his armament was what was hard, Luffy shouldn't have really been able to bite through it so easily.

#

Which frankly, makes sense. He was in contact with that one, he wasn't in contact with the others. Unless you can astral project haki, I don't see how all the other countless biscuit soldiers had them.

burnt lion
#

Well, haki can remain on an arrow even after it’s been fired , not quite the same but the general concept applies

fast kite
#

but the arrow was once in contact with the person.

burnt lion
#

I think haki was definitely being used on these guys, they seem too hard not to have any

image0.jpg
devout galleon
#

Direct contact doesn’t have to be made with the person. Doflamingo coats his string in haki

steel thunder
#

luffy was still having trouble destroying the biscuit soldiers

#

if he wasnt using haki on them, they would be easily destroyed

marble saddle
terse vector
#

I was remembering it as the hardness was due to his devil fruit and nami raining it softened it as water softens the biscuit and hence luffy was able to eat it

burnt lion
#

Maybe the rain made the armament ineffective?

fast kite
#

but why

burnt lion
#

But if that’s the case, there’d be no need to eat them, just smashing them would be easy

terse vector
#

we haven't seen any other instances of arnament being ineffective due to rain. if that was how it is, nami could help in plenty of other instances

devout galleon
#

Because rain doesn’t affect skin the way it affects biscuits

steel thunder
#

cracker may have have given up on using armament on the useless, softened up biscuit soldiers

burnt lion
#

I don’t think that would mean it works on any material, but the biscuits could be softened by the rain in the first place

#

So it’s armament being applied to something that’s basically mush, but at the same time katakuri regularly applies armament to literal mochi

terse vector
fast kite
#

but armament can still be used on soft things.

marble saddle
#

unless its the time of which arm haki is applied before being dampened

devout galleon
terse vector
#

water affecting the biscuit, hence his control with the armament on biscuit got unstable and luffy could hit it easily would make sense tho

steel thunder
#

have we seen some super soft substance become non chewable because armament was being used on it, genuine question

terse vector
#

katakuri?

marble saddle
#

in theory, yes?

fast kite
#

yeah, kata uses the mochi beans effectively as bullets. Presumably due to haki.

burnt lion
#

Luffy got himself stuck in katakuri’s mochi even AFTER armament was applied to it if I’m not mistaken, which is odd since despite the surface being hard he could pass into it

steel thunder
#

ah right then

burnt lion
#

How does this even work come to think of it

image0.jpg
terse vector
#

cracker's control with arnament being disrupted might make sense.

fast kite
#

anyway, this is also kinda what I meant. Things are so loosely defined with how haki even works, no one is really clear on what happened in these situations.

marble saddle
young geyser
#

Well, doflamingo sort of implies it when he kicks Luffy

#

And then Luffy and Katakuri are the only examples and both contradict doffy’s assumption

burnt lion
#

I don’t think so, I can’t see what adding haki to the mochi changes if his objective is just to trap luffy in it

terse vector
#

cracker's biscuit soldier's hardness being due to devil fruit and only the main biscuit soldier with cracker being inside having armament would make sense tho choc
for that

young geyser
steel thunder
#

yeah i think the biscuits were just naturally tough because of the fruit

unknown.png
burnt lion
#

Oh here’s water affecting the mochi with armament, not that it was in question after the cracker example

image0.jpg
steel thunder
#

atleast thats what cracker seems to imply

terse vector
marble saddle
#

I just feel mochi as a general substance can't do the amount of damage it does even without haki as a DF, so there's something there

terse vector
steel thunder
#

back to where this started though, cracker was extremely exhausted

burnt lion
terse vector
#

ah. yeah yeah

steel thunder
#

so he may have run out of haki as well, as we dont really see him use haki after we return to the fight

fast kite
#

looking at the page, he doesn't seem exhausted at all. Luffy is the one who exclaimed he was exhausted, Cracker goes in for an attack by himself, Luffy goes G4 and counters.

terse vector
#

he might not be using haki with other biscuit soldiers in the first place

#

like how will he coat them if they just respawn at a place

marble saddle
#

yeah

young geyser
#

Only time the armament was commented on was when cracker was the only soldier himself

steel thunder
#

well cracker is uh... huffing lol, its our only indication that he was running out of energy besides luffy's own remark regarding his stamina being finite

burnt lion
#

That’s kind of ridiculous then if cracker’s biscuits are naturally that tough

young geyser
devout galleon
#

You don’t need to make direct contact with whatever your ability produces to coat them in haki

steel thunder
#

i would say both things indicate that he was pretty exhausted

burnt lion
marble saddle
#

I feel there's always been larger indication of exhaustion especially when it comes to haki

burnt lion
young geyser
burnt lion
#

It almost makes me wonder if luffy was wrong about him using haki on the first one actually, there’s no noticeable difference in their hardness between the first and the following soldiers

young geyser
#

There’s also nothing really implying anything about cracker’s haki running out or anything

#

So I’m not sure why this is a conversation?

steel thunder
#

katakuri's example is a weird one, but I think the fact that luffy mentions it should be enough imo, just us knowing that "he must be slowing down" is enough, I would still count it as an example as there is no other reason to mention it from luffy

young geyser
#

He mentions it because he’s letting the audience know, “I’m gonna beat Katakuri at full power while he still has future sight, just so I can get stronger”

#

That mentality is also confirmed just by the fact Luffy went back to fight at all, since he could have just tried to make his way back to the Sunny

steel thunder
#

this is pretty straightforward i think, if its guaranteed then its... guaranteed, its really safe to assume that katakuri did slow down

unknown.png
young geyser
#

No, it’s not safe to assume that at all

fast kite
#

and then read the next page.

young geyser
#

Other than just general stamina, which every character has it go down regardless

steel thunder
#

i did, he expresses his desire to beat kata at his best (ofc never happens) because he thinks that simply winning like this won't be good enough for him

fast kite
#

Not to mention, the only actual example of haki running out doesn't even work like how Luffy describes, and he himself is the only example of it happening. Luffy's haki doesn't gradually get weaker, he just runs out. You go from 100 - 0 flat.

marble saddle
steel thunder
#

i don't see how it doesnt work, luffy's haki should be depleting at all times when he fights using it as the series implies, its only gear 4th that uses it "all at once", where it goes from "100"-0 quickly

fast kite
#

Does G4 get weaker over time as he uses it?

young geyser
#

And it’s the only instance in the whole series where haki has been shown to deplete and it’s 100-0

fast kite
#

When he fights Kata in boundman, he doesn't even notice it himself until Kata points it out. There's clearly no real noticable dip in how strong his haki becomes. It just stops working. It doesn't gradually become weaker.

terse vector
steel thunder
#

uh weaker? no i dont know why it would be weaker, but it will most likely last for less time yes, doffy implied that even after 10 minutes, luffy's haki just barely returned so its not like he can recover fully to use it properly

terse vector
#

it was just an statement to tell us that running out of haki isn't just luffy, rather than actually implementing jt

steel thunder
#

luffy is the example of the rule's enforcement, why exclude him

fast kite
#

you don't know why it'd be weaker, even though in the panel you yourself just posted, luffy states "his haki will get weaker"

young geyser
#

Luffy actually does not follow what is stated

#

If you believe that Luffy follows what is stated, then you imply Katakuri’s observation was completely turned off at some points during the fight and would get it back in a spurt like Luffy does g4

terse vector
steel thunder
#

was about to say yeah, doubt weaker means that he starts to see less into the future. it is moreso talking about how his haki will deplete and he wont be able to use it

marble saddle
#

I think the bottom line is if haki running out is a true statement or not.. then in that regard, Luffy's statement is in tact without needing proof from this actual fight

young geyser
#

And Katakuri’s haki never depleted

#

So he was always at his best

steel thunder
#

he does follow, just in a different way, lets say he is using the resources that someone would use in 2 hours in a few minutes, all at once

young geyser
#

I’m going to use a gas analogy

fast kite
#

anyway. this convo just proves what I was saying

By its intangible and flexible nature, it really can grow in any way. It can manifest however, because there's no real established rules, and even the rules that are established are so loosely done so that they can be spun around.

terse vector
#

The haki running out itself doesn't make much sense when haki is "ambition"

steel thunder
#

no indication that kata's haki didnt deplete, if in a fight luffy guarantees that it will deplete, then it depletes

young geyser
#

The way it’s said, the less gas in a car you have, the slower your car will go. However, that’s not how it works with Luffy. Luffy goes the same speed till he runs out of gas. And he’s the only example in the whole series showing someone’s haki depleted.

fast kite
#

there's no indication it did either.

marble saddle
#

but we've still seen Luffy run out of haki so I'm so not convinced on where he was wrong about his statement... its right after dressrosa

fast kite
#

burden of proof isn't on us to prove it didn't deplete, it's on you to prove it did.

steel thunder
#

luffy makes a definitive statement regarding observation running out during a long fight, they fought for hours, ofc, what answer does that give? that kata's haki did indeed deplete

young geyser
#

No it doesn’t

steel thunder
#

i am not saying that its some 100% guaranteed thing, but the indication is there

fast kite
#

Who said it only takes hours to deplete?

young geyser
#

You also have to acknowledge the panel is wrong, Luffy is an anomaly, or what he said only applies to observation haki and not armament

#

And since Luffy is the only example, can the panel be trusted KingShrug

steel thunder
#

i don't think luffy was planning to stay that long in the mirror world, so the "long" fight shouldnt be any longer than like the 12 hours they fought for

#

yeah the panel can be trusted, i dont think oda is straight up providing misinformation

young geyser
#

So Luffy, the only example in the series, shows that Luffy doesn’t follow it

marble saddle
#

I think it makes sense for haki to deplete over time. I think some have more reserves then other, but if its being used, it makes sense that it depletes to some degree

steel thunder
#

the confirmed example is luffy, implied for kata, and well just anyone in the entire series

#

no real reason to doubt it

young geyser
#

No one thinks it’s implied by anyone anywhere

#

No other character has even had a thought about their haki

#

Kid and law worry about their fruits

fast kite
#

It's as implied for Kata as it would be for Aokiji, Akainu, Ace, Jinbei, Jack, Neko, Inu, Kaido, BM etc.

#

except even less so for Kata because Luffy outright says he doesn't want Kata to run out of haki.

#

while the others probably might have.

marble saddle
#

maybe Luffy is the best depiction of haki exhaustion cause he's the one we follow the most

fast kite
#

on top of him fighting for even less time than cracker, given he fought Luffy, Luffy ran out, then came back after a while. While Cracker was wholly continuous and may or may not have been using haki on his biscuits.

steel thunder
#

yeah, their haki resources should be finite too, everyone's should be finite. Kata is specifically highlighted as someone who was guaranteed to slow down in the fight.

desert wyvern
#

I believe either doflamingo or Law also indicate that keeping haki up for that long isn't a thing that can be done, iirc?

fast kite
#

I don't recall that.

terse vector
#

Yeah law wonders that when luffy goes g4

steel thunder
#

why are you taking that statement so literally from luffy, he obviously cannot keep kata from running out of haki lol

desert wyvern
young geyser
steel thunder
fast kite
#

I see. yeah.

unknown.png
young geyser
#

His stamina depletes, not his haki

desert wyvern
#

Ah there we go

#

No, haki depletes. Haki is an absolutely finite resource for everyone in the series

steel thunder
#

is haki being a finite resource really arguable lol

desert wyvern
#

It's only come up for Luffy because Luffy's the only one with a form that constantly does it

young geyser
desert wyvern
#

It's not, it's just a fact of the series. No one's ever contradicted it, or shown otherwise in a similar situation

#

How it depletes is a different story, but that just seems to be continuous use. It's a finite resource after all

steel thunder
#

luffy's depletes faster because thats how gear 4th works, but at all times, every character who is using haki should be slowly running out of haki

young geyser
#

Luffy, the only person who shows haki depletion, goes 100-0. No one else has mentioned their own haki depletion.

steel thunder
#

every character is an example

young geyser
#

Do I need to post the gas example again

hollow wing
#

I do agree that while Haki is a finite resource, it’s pretty dumb only Luffy has had it impact him in fights

desert wyvern
young geyser
#

Haki depletion doesn’t effect people in fights until they run out, like a car running out of gas. Less gas in tank does mean you drive slower aka haki getting weaker

fast kite
marble saddle
#

I just take it as him being less experienced with his haki tbh

desert wyvern
#

As we see in Dressrosa, Luffy gets his haki back, but not enough to be completely defended from Doflamingo

#

^ I say gas in the tank only in the context of this analogy, not literally lmao

young geyser
#

Yeah that confused me

desert wyvern
#

Yeah I started that wrong LUL

young geyser
#

He still does his stronger attack the 2nd time he uses it

#

I’d say whatever you’re referring to is a stamina issue

steel thunder
#

he barely used gear fourth for a few minutes after he returns for doffy

fast kite
steel thunder
#

doffy points out that its because his haki has barely just returned

young geyser
#

Instead of a full tank

desert wyvern
#

When he first gets his haki back, protecting Rebecca, the next chapter opens with Doflamingo teasing him because he's only barely able to defend from Doflamingo's strings

steel thunder
#

sure yeah

young geyser
#

Yeah that’s a stamina issue

desert wyvern
#

He asks Luffy if he's really gotten his haki back

#

It's not, it's a haki thing

#

Like, specifically they say haki

steel thunder
#

no its haki

#

doffy says its haki

young geyser
#

Yeah this isn’t a haki being weak issue

fast kite
#

is there an example of luffy blocking Doffy's strings like that ever? Idk.

young geyser
#

This is definitely a stamina issue, with doflamingo thinking luffy’s haki hasn’t returned enough to put up a surmountable fight

fast kite
#

like purely with haki. The only time I can recall is when he used KKG to blow away the 16 god threads.

young geyser
#

With the entire context of 790

#

Well either way, just like choc’s argument stated, haki ambiguity bad

steel thunder
#

thats one issue, atleast

#

not wrong there, i also wish oda would make things clearer at all times

terse vector
#

A question as the topic seems better for it.
Why does haki actually run out if its "ambition" or "willpower", aside from a narrative purpose of adding a drawback?

fast kite
#

it's just to add a drawback honestly.

#

at least as far as I see it.

terse vector
#

It's not like haki and stamina are entirely correlated too. Haki decreasing doesn't imply stamina decreasing. Haki depleting doesn't make much sense except for a need of adding a drawback

fast kite
#

If it's meant to be a manifestation of willpower, it should never run out as long as you have willpower.

terse vector
#

Yeah exactly

desert wyvern
#

But also, he only fails at it momentarily, he almost wins out but collapses after a few hits

terse vector
#

So according to you its net positive or net negative

snow oracle
#

Net positive

#

Postives outweigh the negative

snow oracle
snow oracle
terse vector
#

Well no. Haki has been explicitly show man to return after 10 minutes while stamina isn't that definite

fast kite
#

the only person who has ever run out of it has been Luffy, and only due to using G4.

snow oracle
#

Wasn't Katakuri becoming more sluggish due to constant usage of haki

#

Or future sight

hollow wing
#

Getting stabbed through in the side kinda makes you more tired too I reckon

terse vector
#

His future sight didn't run out tho. He was still seeing well. Luffy's was increasing in a drastic rate and hr was too tired and injured

fast kite
#

ye, seems more like he was just tired from the long fight.

snow oracle
#

Aight.

fast kite
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something he's probably not used to.

desert wyvern
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^

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Katakuri's haki never ran out, but his stamina was. Same thing with Luffy actually, stamina and haki don't seem to be directly connected beyond no haki means significantly less of it, but not vice versa

snow oracle
desert wyvern
#

Sure, just edit your post, we just compile them into a link.

fast kite
#

yeah go for it.

snow oracle
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So only pick positive or negative no in between

fast kite
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I think adam is offline so it hasn't been added to the post yet anyway

desert wyvern
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It would be better for you to pick a concrete side yeh

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It's a debate, so we should be bringing arguments defending our stance

fast kite
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Ye, you can pick a side, but it's fine if you want to include arguments for both sides, as long as overall you're not fencesitting.

desert wyvern
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It's good to be able to acknowledge the other side, just so long as you can plant your feet on one preferably

fast kite
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'cause I think pretty much everyone had arguments for and against regardless of what side they picked.

desert wyvern
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Yeh, wouldn't be a fun debate if it were a totally black and white subject

signal helm
snow oracle
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Discord acting funny i can't edit it properly

fast kite
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I was thinking of ways I would change haki while writing my thing and one of them was just... what if DF users simply couldn't use it? Like in the same way they're inherently weak to the sea/seastone, the disposition to use haki would simply be removed/reduced?

signal helm
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I think, for me, that would play too much into the concept of haki being implied as a "counter" to a DF, even though we have multiple examples of it not necessarily equaling out to that

fast kite
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Yeah that's fair.

#

definitely some of the better applications of it are it being used in tandem with fruits too.

signal helm
#

spot on. I think whats interesting about it is some of the best developed characters, as well as some of the most mysterious/interesting/"i really wish I knew more" characters are haki only, which plays into the quality of character development that haki brings. Not to say that there arent brilliantly written DF users; Robin, Doffy, Katakuri etc are examples, but for me, the characters I like the most and am the most interested to see happen to be solely haki users

#

the DF users that do use haki use it in much more interesting ways than the majority of non DF haki applications we've seen though, so

fast kite
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I get that, yeah. I think for me, it is at its best when it is used in tandem with something else. Doesn't necessarily have to be a DF, just any kind of main fighting style, that is simply boosted with haki. I would prefer something where haki is just used as a strength equalizer, while the main focus still is on the style of battle, as opposed to the style of battle just being the haki and how the haki is used.

signal helm
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that I 10000000000% agree with

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my least favourite form of haki is just straight up conquerers "lol fuck u" and the fight is won (despite the fact that I love Rayleigh...go figure)

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but watching like, Sanji preform his specific moves augmented by haki is pretty cool, same with Luffy using King Kong gun etc

#

I also actually like the way the anime represented the observation haki. especially when Fujitora used it

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in fact, Fuji may be my favourite combo Haki/DF user

fast kite
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Yeah. I said in my thing before, but observation haki is definitely the one I have the least qualms with, and I think it was implemented the best. Fujitora being a blind dude who relies almost solely on this 6th sense to be as strong as he is, is definitely really cool.

snow oracle
snow oracle
fast kite
#

Yeah, hard to say really, especially when we don't know much about him prior to losing his sight.

signal helm
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i mean yeah, conquerors is badass, i just dont think that makes it good in my eyes. To be fair; its a pretty clever way to have the strongest characters take out complete fodder rather than waste several panels/minutes of the anime on them beating the shit out of a bunch of nobodies, Bruce Lee style, but with that comes the whole weight of having that ability and the "lol well this character is stronger because they have conquerors", which is a trump card i dislike

snow oracle
terse vector
#

Have we had someone without conquerors haki beating someone with conquerors haki, except for taken by surprise?

snow oracle
signal helm
#

Heres my take on that

snow oracle
signal helm
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Nobody needs to have Haoshoku

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Think of it this way

terse vector
signal helm
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All forms of Haki bar Haoshoku are meant to deal with higher level, elite enemies and threats. For attacks that are too fast, too strong, or intangible to get through. Haoshoku, adversely, is used to deal with lower level threats which can be taken out by normal combat

#

I think thats my biggest reason I dislike it

snow oracle
terse vector
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Well we got advanced CoC to give it more meaning Balkan

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Otherwise what luffy could do with conquerors is something brook could easily do with music

snow oracle
signal helm
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doesnt change that its meant to deal with lower level threats though

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and yeah goro

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i dislike it less when they developed it more

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but its the only one they needed to flesh out way more and kinda give a "footnote" to

snow oracle
signal helm
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i dont think theres anything inherently wrong with it per se

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its just why I dislike it versus the other forms of haki and when haki is, to me, compelling and interesting

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do I really actually care that Luffy used COC against a bunch of no name fishmen who wont ever matter?

#

no, that shit is insignificant

snow oracle
signal helm
#

the only time im ever interested to see COC is when its first used. after that, its almost like

#

you know when that shits coming out. lmao

terse vector
#

I liked the distinction advanced CoC gave as to why these people are best of the best.
But we already had advanced armament and it just felt kinda redundant. Idk how to put it

snow oracle
signal helm
#

oh, luffy stuck in a crowd of alot of enemies?

#

wow i wonder whats going to happen

#

just becomes a bit arbitrary

snow oracle
#

Advanced CoC. Is very different than one would expect to be honest never did i think you could infuse it into blades and use as protection

terse vector
#

Conqueror haki used to be awesome for hype moment when you hear "the very very very strongest" playing. Like when the soundtrack starts playing and you are expecting and it still is hype

snow oracle
#

It feels like a whole new concept altogether

signal helm
#

ok i gotta go do some work

terse vector
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luffy top 10 conqueror haki moment used to be the kind of YouTube video I rewarched a lot
But it just is redundant now, more than hype

signal helm
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ping if u have a problem or if you need something pinned