#debate-arena

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

hallow mango
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I dont know thats why i am.asking ^^

terse vector
hallow mango
terse vector
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Could ping and ask people but they could be busy or smth

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And can't wander around searching in manga as idr which chapter to go

fast kite
terse vector
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Ah thanks

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Oh that was choc...

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Anyways @hallow mango

fast kite
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and this is what rayleigh says about it.

unknown.png
terse vector
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Ah. So its not like its outright stated that you need to be born with it but its only stated that luffy was born with it?

fast kite
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Idk. I would assume it is something that you are born with.

terse vector
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Yeah...

fast kite
terse vector
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Hmm. Yeah trebel also mentioned that Doffy was born with it...

clear field
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I thought topic changes everyday but alright

terse vector
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So its a birth privilege

terse vector
fast kite
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ah right. trebol. Gotta remember that one for next time when the convo pops up lol.

terse vector
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Oh yeah its trebol... my bad

fast kite
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So yeah, there's a pretty strong case for birth circumstance influencing whether you have CoC or not, considering it's an attribute determined at birth.

terse vector
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Yeah

obtuse anchor
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i look at it similar to how some people are just born evil ie. cora and doffy. it's not passed down or anything

terse vector
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so no going to top without strong lineage or birth privileges ...

That's why I think it would be better if Blackbeard or akainu or both would be without CoC

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Would be a nice addition or smth

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Considering how blackbeard seems to be the final villain

fast kite
terse vector
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Yeah

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Without the stuff of CoC, lineage or birth privileges wouldn't do much other than getting you exposed to more opportunities

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And conversely people without those would be exposed to hardships

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And would have been a good balance imo

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But just because having the 'qualities of a king' also wouldn't do if you don't train/work hard for it.

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Zoro's lineage wouldn't discard his hard work and efforts and also wouldn't do much other than providing a good backstory about him or like a homing instinct

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Like his fascination with samurai could be looked to be his homing instinct, right?

odd stream
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check the channel description and #events

keen flume
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I see

terse vector
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Also one of the better thing Zoro's lineage being shimotsuki would do is this

IMG_20210916_150530.jpg
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It would make him the rightful ruler of Izou, kawamatsu and kiku...
Tho I think I am straying away from the point here

sonic prawn
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I also agree, if zoro is actually a shimotsuki that is.

alpine patio
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-He defeated the great evil that poisened your country!
-So what?
-He is Shimotsuki!
WapolTriggered - lets follow him

obtuse anchor
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Here's my two cents:

1- luffy's use of coc being used to demonstrate a connection with his father is nothing more than a "like father like son" comment. it doesnt really solidify that luffy having coc has anything to do with his father.
as for the D family, i think it falls under the category of good implementations of predetermined destinies i mentioned in my initial post. members of that family make a name for themselves and are the natural enemy of god, but how each one of them gets there is not determined by it. it's their own character and experiences that just end up leading them to that point. in short, it does not take away from the character's agency, which would not be the case for zoro if he becomes a shimotsuki now.

2- The governments desire to execute ace to nip him in the bud before he becomes more trouble just because he's the pirake king's son is nothing more than superstition on their part tbh. sure, he was making a name for himself as a powerful pirate, but the ultimate reason that decided his fate was his father. i think that using his hatred for roger would have been a better example here bc it demonstrates the real influence on ace throughout, not just what lead to his death. and would be an example of well implemented lineage. this would not be the case for zoro because for as long as we've known him, he just does what he wants and wants to be great, so such a development would distract from that.

3- "she is kaido's kid, of course she is strong"
i have two things to say here:

  • that is exactly the effect we will start getting with zoro. people will start attributing his character and achievements to his lineage to some degree, and i think this will only serve to distract away from his character. he will become "shimotsuki zoro" whether we like it or not, and that will naturally impact his character.
  • we need to be careful when discussing genetics/bloodline. stuff like phenotypes will obviously come through, and that's how it should be. so yamato's strength would be partly attributed to kaido's physical strength that was passed down through DNA, but it's not the reason she is this strong today. that would the fact that she fought kaido numerous times over the span of about 20 years, while wearing seastone cuffs even. she has had more than enough proper training. and even if she hadnt defied kaido, he would still have trained her to become strong.
    as for kaido's comments "you are my kid", "you have my blood". those are just him saying "i own you". this is made clear by him telling yamato to die otherwise.

4- momo is another phenotype case like above, but tbf, he doesnt have abnormal amounts of muscle like oden did, he is quite average in that aspect.

5- sanji did get his lineage revealed later on in his arc, but it was fine until we started getting hints explaining diable jambe imo.
before wci, sanji was just a chef that wants to find the all blue and loves women, so his lineage added good depth to his character. and his hatred for them goes well with who he is as well + explains why he didnt mention them ever (not like it matters anyway).
but now we are starting to be counterproductive with the fire that was supposed to be his flaming passion potentially getting explained by his lineage. it's just replacing a great aspect about him that fits his character extremely well, by an underwhelming explanation. i feel like that what's gonna happen with zoro, but with no benefits like sanji's character got initially.

fast kite
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Yeah my point with the first 2 was kind of to establish genetics as a contributing factor to how people in the world of One Piece view things. Like, "Luffy and Ace will become bigger threats later, because look at their family history". It's not so much a very literal thing, but it shows that it's viewed as something that matters. The children of powerful people end up becoming powerful. Maybe there's an element of the truth to how they see it. I'm not really trying to say these are comparable to Zoro's situation, just to establish that there's some themes regarding genetics and genetic dispositions, so the subject of Zoro's lineage/genetics, is one that shouldn't really be dismissed. There is some kind of an impact with that reveal.

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Which is what my conclusion kinda was. It becomes unclear how his lineage plays a part in how he grew, but there's enough of a theme around that topic that I personally cannot dismiss that it plays no part in it.

obtuse anchor
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Yea gotcha, was just expanding on those points.

I also wanna say that how the characters in the story view zoro isn’t as much of an issue or concern as the reader views it. That’s why it won’t matter if zoro learns about his lineage or if it’s just told by the narrator in a flash back or something. The impact on his character is still there

terse vector
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But mip, 'demon blood' thing is there for Yamato

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Like I get that thing about owning her and she trained too

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But with that 'demon blood' thing, wouldn't that be like a different race

fast kite
terse vector
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And different race would have different attributes and their lineage plays a part in their abilities

obtuse anchor
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again, that is just phenotypes. it does not really influence yamato as a character as much

fast kite
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Maybe I just read that wrong. Idk why I didn't wrap my head around that.

terse vector
fast kite
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but yeah. Ultimately it's not as important, but I think there's still some impact there. Like I said with the Sanji example, the world finds out about Sanji's lineage, and he gets bounty increases, which impacts how he gets viewed as a character by the readers also.

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Not to say Shimotsuki Zoro would have as much impact on the world as Vinsmoke Sanji, because Shimotsuki is not really as well known outside of Wano, but it's a possibility.

obtuse anchor
obtuse anchor
terse vector
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No I meant that with the comment 'of course she's strong she's kaido's son.' Cuz if it really is a different race, it is a reason why she could go head on with kaido. Zoro might have trained more than Yamato but he's just a human

fast kite
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for sure, but if the argument is about her accomplishments as a character, does it change? Which is why "she's kaido's kid, of course she's strong" is an argument for how a character's lineage plays a part in how readers can perceive how strong a character is, or how they even achieve that strength. I do think it's very different for an established character like zoro vs a new character like yamato, but it's still there.

terse vector
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Yeah

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But wait a min, she had seastone cuffs? Wasn't it just the exploding ones?

obtuse anchor
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vivre cards

terse vector
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Ah. Haven't checked those...

obtuse anchor
terse vector
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Yeah but my point was, not sure if it collides with yours, her race allowed her to be stronger with lesser training than it would take for human

obtuse anchor
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yea no debate there

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assuming it's a race

terse vector
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Yeah

obtuse anchor
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idt we disagree here choc

fast kite
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I don't think we disagree overall, no.

terse vector
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Also, the flaming passion would have been a good thing for Sanji. Ofc it wouldn't make sense for a human to generate fire I guess but its fiction and not everything has to make perfect sense

obtuse anchor
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i wanna read what shim wrote up

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waiting for bean and doom as well

fast kite
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were mods forced to take sides to encourage the debate? You can tell me. OrochiScheme

obtuse anchor
terse vector
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^^

obtuse anchor
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nah choc lmao

fast kite
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based.

terse vector
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That's What I meant mip

terse vector
normal blade
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Actually Fats said early in the channel that he's arguing against what he believes.

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So he's full Shimotsuki Zoro ZoroCope

fast kite
# obtuse anchor mhm, i prefer the fictional explanation that is true to the character over the s...

I kinda disagree here. Sanji's deal is very strange to me. Like, I do actually like him being more of a super soldier, created by science, driven by emotion. Like, that emotional part that drives him is still there, while providing an actual explanation for the fire leg stuff. I can understand wanting the more simple explanation though, because I'm genuinely feeling like "Okay, who's next?" now.

terse vector
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Read fats' and tho I do agree with the first point, can't agree with the second point. I mean - Thunder Bolt isn't as fast as Usian Bolt was or a son of a sportsman might be bad at that sport or overally bad at sport

obtuse anchor
normal blade
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Yeah, I know. I was just answering Choc's question.

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We should force Evan to do one for though.

terse vector
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Damn Mip, your initial post is supeeeer long

fast kite
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Evan's response "No, it does not detract, actually it is based and cool."

obtuse anchor
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evan said he would prolly write up smth today

normal blade
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I've only read a few so far but good job Mip. SaboThumbsUp

obtuse anchor
terse vector
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:HOWISTHISMAN:

normal blade
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I've been on the fence on this topic but you guys got me going for.

obtuse anchor
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tyty wanze, im more proud of the formatting than the argument LUL

normal blade
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I wanna join in but I feel like everything has been said at this point from both sides.

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Need to get in on the ground floor next one.

fast kite
obtuse anchor
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there's always more you can say. and even if some points are repeated, you can still make a different argument

normal blade
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Oh I didn't see Archer's

fast kite
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If I wasn't so stubborn, I might even agree with it to some degree. CrocoStare

normal blade
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Did it not meet standard for pin? Not long enough?

fast kite
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it's only a small post, ye.

terse vector
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Did Seppy contradict what he meant to say in his post itself? Tho I agree.with his

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Ah yeah Archer's was good

obtuse anchor
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eh choc, being a no name is what makes zoro good. and i dont really see why a no name cant achieve great things, roger was a no name afawk Shrug

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unless you count the D, which i dont as i have explained earlier

normal blade
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as far as we know, but yeah the whole D thing

fast kite
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Sure. I disagree with him saying no names can't be high achievers. but I do agree with him saying Zoro's level of ambition was never "normal"

normal blade
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Yet to be decided what it entails, whether it gives them something special aside from family history or something.

obtuse anchor
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notthing too wild

terse vector
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I mean what Archer said doesn't seem to be refutable, those who reach the top aren't normal, they have a drive which normal people doesn't have which remains unchanged with or without their lineage

fast kite
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I agree though, that Zoro being born as normal makes that contrast so much better. Of just being the kid who had a goal, and drove himself to it. While, like you said, him being a shimotsuki more feels like he was a kid who was molded to be what he aspires to be.

obtuse anchor
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same reason we see more coc users in the new world

fast kite
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and it definitely feels like, this could've been implemented 100x better if it was introduced several hundred chapters earlier. Which is part of what makes it feel... off.

terse vector
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Also is it okay if I link a reddit post here? It was related to Zoro's lineage and one I really liked reading.

obtuse anchor
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if it contributes to the debate topic then yea

chrome mist
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Shimon's points are great, I agree with him

terse vector
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These are the only two part which seem to contribute (the post is too long so just posting this)

IMG_20210916_164508.jpg IMG_20210916_164523.jpg
normal blade
obtuse anchor
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i agree with choc there. the issue is that zoro's character is pretty flushed out

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so he will not benefit from this like sanji did for ex

chrome mist
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I thought literally everyone figured Zoro would have something since he is in the land of the samurai

normal blade
chrome mist
obtuse anchor
obtuse anchor
fast kite
chrome mist
obtuse anchor
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what do you zoro would have done if he didnt lose to kuina

fast kite
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what reason does he need to be the best other than wanting to do so?

chrome mist
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He later got luffy as motivation to push himself even further, but not with kuina

obtuse anchor
terse vector
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Oo I had found a crack theory about Kuina thing too

chrome mist
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Mip, that's a meta argument, yes he would still have kept going, but that's only because we know him now

obtuse anchor
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no, he woudl have kept going bc that's how his character was introduced

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it's not underdeveloped

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it's sufficient

terse vector
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Mip...

IMG_20210916_165512.jpg
chrome mist
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Do you consider his backstory his introduction? Because that part is pretty superficial

terse vector
obtuse anchor
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yea it's a neat idea goro

fast kite
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Fed, do you think Usopp's backstory should be further explained?

terse vector
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Usopp being Yasopp's son should be enough for his character arc imo

obtuse anchor
chrome mist
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Well, it technically was expanded by the fact he is related to yasopp and noland

fast kite
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Is it not sufficient that what drives him is a motivation to be like his father? Do we need more? Do we need more on why Zoro wanted to be the best? He just did. He was a person who was driven to be better than others, he hit a wall, which made him even more determined.

terse vector
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^

obtuse anchor
chrome mist
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I think that's a false equivalence since syrup village directly expanded on what the 2 page flashback of his mom showed and the impact of it, something that is missing for zoro

fast kite
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I mean, the flashback came after everything with Syrup Village. All the flashback really told us is why he lies. It didn't really say why he gravitates towards a father who left him and his dying mother. He just says he's proud of his dad, and that's really it. Zoro says he wants to be the best, that's really it.

chrome mist
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All the flashback really told us is why he lies
Yea that's what I mean, it recontextualises a lot, which zoro's doesn't do

fast kite
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He was a kid, he wanted to be the best. He hits a wall. That wall mocks him constantly every day for being worse than them, and it drives him forward.

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then the wall dies after making a promise that they'd both strive to be the best.

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how is that not a sufficient motivator?

chrome mist
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Hence why I said bare bones, I didn't say it does nothing

fast kite
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It contextualizes the basis of the promise which drives his ambition. The best thing it could do would be to expand on the 2000 battles of Zoro and Kuina.

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Yes, but Zoro's character is stuff we see afterwards, that we can retroactively apply to his backstory.

chrome mist
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That's what my point was UsoppSus

fast kite
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hell, that's not even necessarily true, we see how he trains in the backstory too.

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We see how his motivation manifests.

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even in that short backstory.

chrome mist
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Ok? But I don't get how it's a sin to show more about his origins

fast kite
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I don't think anyone is saying it's a sin? Just feels unnecessary.

terse vector
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It would feel weird if its invalidates with the character's motivation and lessens the impact and connection you can make with the character

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But so far, even with shimotsuki thing, it doesn't seem like it would do so

fast kite
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Here. Let me make a comparison. Ace strove to be a pirate that wouldn't be defined by his father's legacy. What makes this a good, compelling reason for the character, is that we see how his father's legacy has impacted his life, with his mother dying, people saying he shouldn't exist, he's a burden, a devil etc.
Now, let's look at Zoro. We see him (prior to shimotsuki stuff) as a kid who aspired to be the best because of a promise he made with a dead friend. If we recontextualize it with the Shimotsuki stuff, what do we get? He actually strove to be the best because his bloodline compelled him to do so? Or do we get a backstory of Zoro getting bullied for being a Shimotsuki or something? "Oh man, if Ryuma's kid was alive, he shouldn't be in this dojo, why does he even need to be in a dojo anyway? they're a descendant of the sword god!"?

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What does it recontextualize?

lethal oxide
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well i think that kidd and luffy are gonna be together

terse vector
lethal oxide
terse vector
fast kite
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How would Zoro being a shimotsuki recontextualize his backstory/motivations? What would it add?

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it really wouldn't do anything. because as far as we know, his motivations are rooted in a promise he made with a dead friend. and if somehow his family circumstance recontextualize it, how would it do so? Why would it be better?

terse vector
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I mean for some people it may seem like his dream of being a swordsmen was mainly due to his destiny as a samurai

fast kite
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The thing with Sanji's 2nd backstory is that it didn't really recontextualize his goals. We got a little bit of origin story on what started his love for cooking, but it mostly was about how his family relations shaped him as a person.

terse vector
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That itself decreases the impact for most people

fast kite
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Yeah exactly.

terse vector
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Sanji being a lunarian thing might be something that might throw me off

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No matter how it is done

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But for zoro's case, it largely depends on implementation

jolly obsidian
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Lineage don't take away people accomplishments, Look at BM kids, about 75% of them are shit

terse vector
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Lineage doesn't, race can

jolly obsidian
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also there's is almost nothing genetic that carry on

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especially with Luffy, Zoro etc etc

terse vector
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People are born with CoC.
There are quite a variety of race in OP

jolly obsidian
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Zoro train so much to be this strong

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we literally see him trains

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also it seems he got 0 knowledge of being part of that family so it literally means nothing to him and doesn't affect him as a character. Unless you talking about plot, get over it. Barely affects him

mighty venture
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hmm i got a question:back in WCI arc how didnt big mom sense nami and the others with her observation haki while they were trying to save brook?

jolly obsidian
mighty venture
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but thats what observation haki is for to sense people around u or far away in a distance

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i could be wrong doe

fast kite
jolly obsidian
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As far as I'm aware, Observation is for when you're in danger or fighting etc , some people can use it for different uses

terse vector
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Try to read the description of this channel...

frosty spindle
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oh

mighty venture
obtuse anchor
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  1. Perspective
    I completely agree with you here, zoro will dismiss it or just say "oh, that's neat" at most. However, saying the lineage will merely exist as a backdrop for fans is false. A development such as zoro being the direct descendant of a line of powerful and gifted swordsmen will alter the characters' perception of zoro and their interactions with him (ours as well). We have already seen this in action in 1023 as you see in the page.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/509503899884060712/888034702320099368/Screen_Shot_2021-09-16_at_14.36.02.png?width=902&height=1170

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  1. The Catalyst and Empathy
    Zoro being a shimotsuki will start to change these points. He will no longer have stumbled across the shimotsuki dojo on his journey to take down powerful foes, rather, it would mean that zoro trained in the swordsmanship style of HIS family, at THIER dojo, and by THEM. This would remove the relatability from zoro as he was placed in the right place at the right time, and had the bloodline that allows it. Hence why he is a chosen one in a sense.
    It will start go against his pure will and determination driving him since childhood to satisfy his desires and ambitions.

  2. Faults

Evidently, Zoro often manages to come off as a character with his own shortcomings, and someone who nobody would expect to be "chosen" by any stretch of the imagination.
I really fail to see how a character having shortcomings in certain aspects means they cannot be labeled as a chosen one. Especially when it comes to zoro who is pretty well rounded and viewed as great. His strengths outweigh his shortcomings by a significant margin. An example of how he's viewed positively would be the reaction of the supernova to him in shabondy, and i'm sure you can find other instances.

  1. Retrospect

There have never been any special Shimotsuki genes at work that were finely attuning Zoro to feeling that breath of objects
While the development of the shimotsuki is not going to invalidate zoro's efforts, it will still introduce a new perspective that starts to take away from them. It is as you said the lineage will merely exist as a backdrop for fans that means it will subliminally influence our perception of zoro whether we like it or not.
Zoro slayed the dragon in punk hazard because he's the descendant of ryuma, he scarred kaido because his ancestor is the great dragon slayer, he has the potential for greatness because he's from a line of great gifted swordsmen.
Theses are not going to be the new facts, but it will alter our new perception of zoro knowing he's a shimotsuki, and this effect will be even more powerful in the future. This, as i said before, is something the characters have already started to experience. refer to the image earlier

I really like your point about ambition and idt i have anything to dispute it tbh.

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Sorry for the shitty formatting btw, my brain is barely functioning

modest basalt
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nvm ignore what i said

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it was a dumbass point

jolly obsidian
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Also Chosen to get the Wado? Wasn't that Kuina sword?

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And she died so Zoro could get it cus of Destiny?

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hmm

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Luffy and Yamato both trained a shit ton in different way alas but if they didn't train, they would be weak. Luffy was weak from the start but he trained for about years prior to that and he taught himself how to fight with his df. Same with Yamato

obtuse anchor
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again, im not saying that it will be the explanation for it, but it will give them more credit

jolly obsidian
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Hmm, my problem is that, we seen him train and train literally. Also Kaido isn't "technically a dragon"

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I don't know how he isn't but didn't Oda said he ate a fish fruit?

obtuse anchor
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yea that's my point, it will distract from his efforts to some extent

obtuse anchor
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kaido is still a dragon

jolly obsidian
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Also that dragon, sure Zoro killed it but wasn't he helped massively with Luffy and umm Usopp?

final finch
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this is a new channel right?

terse vector
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Guys, read the channel description before you text in any channel

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The purpose of this channel has been mentioned very clearly in the description

marble thicket
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just call this place corrida coliseum

terse vector
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And Akaii enters the chat... Your opinions....???

green sand
# obtuse anchor 1. Perspective I completely agree with you here, zoro will dismiss it or just sa...

A development such as zoro being the direct descendant of a line of powerful and gifted swordsmen will alter the characters' perception of zoro and their interactions with him (ours as well). We have already seen this in action in 1023 as you see in the page.

At this stage, there's no telling who or how many people are going to learn about Zoro's past, but I highly doubt it's going to be some widespread knowledge akin to what Sanji's Vinsmoke connection is nowadays. In any case, Wano is really the only place we'll ever really have to worry about this connection showcasing altered character perceptions, like the example you've shown.

I don't think we have to worry about Zoro's surname changing, nor the Straw Hats starting to revere Zoro more highly due to this. I think it's possible Zoro is the only main character who learns about his connection, given that there isn't some eventual feud regarding his family that prompts the Straw Hats or anyone else to know about it.

Zoro being a shimotsuki will start to change these points. He will no longer have stumbled across the shimotsuki dojo on his journey to take down powerful foes, rather, it would mean that zoro trained in the swordsmanship style of HIS family, at THIER dojo, and by THEM. This would remove the relatability from zoro as he was placed in the right place at the right time, and had the bloodline that allows it. Hence why he is a chosen one in a sense.

Zoro did have the proper pieces set in place for him, but what still allows this to feel more natural is that we also got to look at the difference between Zoro and his peers at the time. As we could see with the other kids, they were all at the right place and time as well, but they didn't go on to be crazy strong individuals, and are instead still there at the dojo living modest lives.

Zoro was merely the one person who made the most out of his circumstances to become the strongest out of them. Even though just being at Shimotsuki village, at their dojo and being trained by Koushiro doesn't automatically mean anyone is bound to be a ridiculously strong individual.

While the development of the shimotsuki is not going to invalidate zoro's efforts, it will still introduce a new perspective that starts to take away from them. It is as you said
the lineage will merely exist as a backdrop for fans
that means it will subliminally influence our perception of zoro whether we like it or not.
Zoro slayed the dragon in punk hazard because he's the descendant of ryuma, he scarred kaido because his ancestor is the great dragon slayer, he has the potential for greatness because he's from a line of great gifted swordsmen.
Theses are not going to be the new facts, but it will alter our new perception of zoro knowing he's a shimotsuki, and this effect will be even more powerful in the future. This, as i said before, is something the characters have already started to experience. refer to the image earlier

When I call the development a backdrop or underlying compliment for fans to enjoy, that doesn't mean it only can go one way. Enjoying Zoro's new development to think of him as a more interesting individual in one's head, whilst also still attributing all his efforts as his own are possible to be mutually exclusive to each other. That's right, this revelation isn't physically changing reality on Zoro's previous feats. it all comes down to personal perception which is subject to change from person to person, and what I said in the previous sentence is exactly how I feel about the revelation.

terse vector
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they were all at the right place and time as well, but they didn't go on to be crazy strong individuals, and they're still there instead are still there at the dojo living modest lives.
Couldn't this be interpreted as he was able to make most of the opportunities presented to him due to his lineage- that he was able to make the most of it as he was suited to be a swordsmen?

green sand
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I don't think it necessarily has to mean that. I highly doubt Zoro is the only person from the dojo who had descended from swordsmen either, given the nature of the village as a whole. Some of the other kids very likely were as well

rustic oriole
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Only thing zoro’s heritage does is explain why he was a weirdly tough cookie and why he had an inherent need to get into swordplay

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I didn’t need these things answered but they are now and it doesn’t really change anything this late into the series

obtuse anchor
# green sand > A development such as zoro being the direct descendant of a line of powerful a...

At this stage, there's no telling who or how many people are going to learn about Zoro's past, but I highly doubt it's going to be some widespread knowledge akin to what Sanji's Vinsmoke connection is nowadays. In any case, Wano is really the only place we'll ever really have to worry about this connection showcasing altered character perceptions, like the example you've shown.
Ryuma is a world renowned swordsman, so morgan can easily drop this bit of info to the world and it will become important to how the world preceives him.
The strawhats will not start revering him because of it ofc, and we might even get out of wano without zoro learning about it himself.

they were all at the right place and time as well
That is not what i meant. for zoro, it would be more like he was meant to be there all along, be it by the shimotsuki's decision, fate, or both. Which is not the case for the others. This does not invalidate all of his hard work of course, but it will start distracting away from it as him stumbling upon it randomly then deciding to stay would not have as much of an impact as it did before.

Enjoying Zoro's new development to think of him as a more interesting individual in one's head, whilst also still attributing all his efforts as his own are possible to be mutually exclusive to each other.
Yea, i agree there, but i still think that this development will take away more than it adds to zoro. He doesnt need a fancy family name/bloodline, he has gone the entire story without it just fine and he is loved just for who he is. This type of addition would have worked earlier on, but i believe it's just too late at this stage.

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sorry if you got pinged there, didnt mean to

proper blaze
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Is this for anime or manga?

obtuse anchor
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manga

sour spire
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manga

proper blaze
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Oh Damn im getting spoiled

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im out now just contiune your topic

obtuse anchor
terse vector
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do we know what exactly made him interested in swordsmen?

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i mean the anime had different thing with him challenging every dojo or sm shit

obtuse anchor
obtuse anchor
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i find zoro's ambitions and drive to be more than sufficient as they are right now, he doesnt need an explanation for it

terse vector
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I mean his reveal of Shimotsuki lineage should be done to serve a purpose.

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And with the way you put it, it doesn't seem to do any

obtuse anchor
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i can think of three purposes it would serve
1- it's cool
2- explains why he was interested in swordsmanship
3- ties in all the loose ends about why he was in east blue

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and i believe that zoro doesnt need any of those, he is already a well rounded character

terse vector
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  1. agreed.
  2. didn't you basically refute it?
  3. I mean anyone fan be born in any place. And other loose ends about him knowing stuff and all could be explained using Kozaburo
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Like about Sunacchi and all

obtuse anchor
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whether i refuted it or not is debatable because some people clearly believe that there can be aa better more well defined reason for his interest in swordsmanship, while i believe that it's better left unknown to match the established ronin characteristic he has had all this time

terse vector
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Yeah I also agree as not people make decisions on a whim and more often than not stick with it

obtuse anchor
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but then again, fats thinks the ronin aspect was just a motif used in zoro's early stages and is not a significant part of his character. Which i disagree with

terse vector
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Ronin and loyalty...

obtuse anchor
terse vector
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Yeah

burnt crater
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what so u think it's cooler he just woke up and decided to be a swordsman for no reason?

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like I don't think that's bad I just don't see why you'd WANT that to be what happened

terse vector
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It's not unreasonable. Many important decisions in history has been taken on a whim

burnt crater
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I think it's fine, I'm just saying why would that be better than him coming from a family of swordsmen

terse vector
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Because coming from family of swordsmen could mean your lineage is deciding your fate

obtuse anchor
terse vector
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Yeah

burnt crater
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I never said I see an issue with it

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but ur saying if he was from a family of swordsmen it was like he was pressured into it kinda

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or more guided in that direction rather than just deciding to do it one day

terse vector
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Nah its just him deciding it on a whim fits his character

obtuse anchor
# terse vector Ronin and loyalty...

even the loyalty aspect goes back to the ronin thing. Zoro started following luffy because he saw something he could respect in him, luffy is not his master, just a person zoro thinks would be beneficial to follow. That also explains why zoro accepts the other crew mates, it's because he respects luffy's decision. And zoro thought that luffy was making the wrong decision by wanting to let usopp back in, he spoke up and threatened to leave. All of this is ronin behavior

terse vector
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Hmm yeah I do agree now. It wouldn't have fit the ronin theme if he just followed luffy's decision then

burnt crater
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But if say his father literally just left him on an island and he looked up to his father and said I wanna be like him and be a great swordsman, that doesn't detract from his loyalty or dedication. It would only detract if his family were the ones that told him to be a swordsman/forced him when he didn't want to

obtuse anchor
burnt crater
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But I mean don't we see Zoro going off and seeking out dojo's, perhaps they knew the Shimotsuki dojo was there and if Zoro wanted he could go and train there, but they never put him in the dojo and said "go train now son", he just happened to stumble across it

obtuse anchor
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this starts to hurt his own agency that has been established since his youth

burnt crater
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I mean sure but it's so little guidance that I don't think it detracts from his character. If he was literally told to train there sure but just being put in that area

obtuse anchor
burnt crater
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I thought he just was going around to random dojos and challenging ppl until he came to the shimotsuki dojo

obtuse anchor
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that was anime only

burnt crater
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ah

obtuse anchor
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but i still accept it as it is implied by the manga as well

terse vector
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I mean it doesn't contribute much. The only difference it makes is the anime one implies zoro is from another village

burnt crater
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I honestly don't mind him being somewhat put on that track as a kid because most dreams start somewhere, it's not like I think any less of him because wow u did something ur parents also did. It's just like well ok that's where that initial idea came from

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All his determination and will is shown in the backstory, nothing that happens before that really can take away from that

obtuse anchor
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the point is, if he decided to go challenge dojos to prove his strength and gain respect like a ronin would, then that goes with zoro's established character independence that we have seen throughout the entire story. But if they guided/tricked him into it, then he loses that and it doesnt fit as much with his character.

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does that make my point clear enough?

burnt crater
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Yes but I don't mind him just gradually learning that character independence instead of him being a completely independent isolated thinker from birth

terse vector
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Yeah. The second scenario hasn't been implied by either manga or anime, right?

obtuse anchor
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it has not, but it's what i assume would be the case if he's a shimotsuki

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or some variation of it

terse vector
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Hmm

burnt crater
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It's not like "wow Zoro did something that his parents also did when he was a little kid, it's so unbelievable to think that he would go off and make his own path once he developed a brain and a sense of self at the age of like 10 (or however old he is in the flashback)"

obtuse anchor
burnt crater
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Not at all lol

obtuse anchor
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i have my original arguments pinned, might wanna check that out so we're on the same page

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it's too much to retype here lol

burnt crater
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Imo I hardly think anything that Zoro achieved was because he was a Shimotsuki

obtuse anchor
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it's not, yea

burnt crater
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ok I'll give it a read in a bit 👍

terse vector
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Yea

burnt crater
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It all depends on how you see fate. I understand for some it feels like "of course Zoro was going to be great, he was the son of a great samurai" then sure you could look at is as a detractor, as it feels like an explanation for his greatness. But you can also look at it as just a cool fact and almost like isn't it neat that Zoro happened to become such a great swordsman just like his father.

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I feel like sure him being a shimotsuki means he's "carrying on the will of his family" but if he's doing so unknowingly it's more a neat happenstance than a pre established goal

obtuse anchor
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but if he's doing so unknowingly it's more a neat happenstance than a pre established goal
I dont see how this factors at all. it doesnt matter if zoro knows it or not because we are the ones affected by it and having our perspective of him change because of it. Even the characters within the story will have the same experience. look here for ex

Screen_Shot_2021-09-16_at_14.png
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the way they are discussing it here is going to be the same/similar to how readers view zoro's past actions and going forward

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so it does have a noticable impact

burnt crater
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That's if you think of it that way, I'm not saying it won't impact how some see him but like that's just going to be how it is, the argument ur making is more "Zoro shouldn't have more backstory because then our ideas about him may change from before" which like is true about anything

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That's just if you choose to see it that way

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It's not an objectively bad story arc, because for many of us everything we love about the character stays intact idk what about him as a character actually changes, its just how u see him in the story

obtuse anchor
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"Zoro shouldn't have more backstory because then our ideas about him may change from before"
My problem is not change itself, that would ridiculous. It's just that it would be an unnecessary addition that starts to go against his established characteristics imo, as i outlined in the original post.
It wont be one drastic change, just small ones here and there that will culminate in a noticeable effect.

That effect counts for me if a big enough part of the fandom starts to take the point of view, which im sure they will because such ideas of connections and parallels influencing zoro have been adapted by a significant portion of the fandom for long now. I think this is the best way to answer when it comes to subjectivity rather than an objective change.

last bit is also in response to That's if you think of it that way

burnt crater
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I see ur point then and would probably say I agree, would hate to see a bunch of boring parallels drawn about how "Zoro did this bc he's a shimotsuki" & it's definitely and unnecessary change, I just would say personally it doesn't change MY enjoyment of the character even if it may sour my enjoyment of discussion around the character

obtuse anchor
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yea, i would not say that it will hinder my enjoyment of zoro in retrospect or going forward, nor is it a "oda fucked up" statement. it's just a decision that i do not agree with and think that we would have better off overall without it

obtuse anchor
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This channel isn’t meant for general debates, only specific ones. Check #events for details regarding that

steel island
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Lineage in One Piece:

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How does being a Shimotsuki affect Zoro's character and accomplishments?

• Zoro has an almost unparalleled drive and determination to rise to the top that is simply not normal. He is and has always been exceptional since a young age. These intangible qualities cannot be taught or necessarily inherited. Some people are just born with it, and most are not. Not many are willing to go to the utter extremes that Zoro is to achieve their dream.

• He has never wanted to take the easy route. He doesn't get complacent or allow others to outwork him. These are admirable qualities that definitely make him worthy of attaining that top rank. No one wants it as bad or is willing to sacrifice everything as much as Zoro is. He often views himself as not good enough and needing to get stronger on several occasions. Constantly striving to improve. None of this can be simply equated to him having special lineage.

• Zoro's biggest influence was not his literal genetics, but his upbringing and teachings. Zoro did not spar 2001 times Ushimaru. Zoro was not taught the breath of all things or Santoryu by Ushimaru. Zoro did not develop his code of honor and loyalty due to meeting Ushimaru. These are skills and traits that he was either born with naturally or he learned in Shimotsuki Village (it's implied he developed Santoryu himself).

• Zoro being a Shimotsuki is not necessarily the reason he has the disposition to become the greatest swordsman. He was influenced by those around him sure, but that's the case for literally everyone. Not many wake up one day and decide to strive for something with no inspiration or influence.

• He has no knowledge of this lineage and is not dedicating his life to follow in the footsteps of Ryuma or Ushimaru. He was simply a boy with a passion and desire to become the best at what he does and made a promise to a childhood rival/friend.(edited)

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• Being the offspring of a successful person does not guarantee that you are destined for the same greatness or are blessed with the same work ethic and dedication.

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Does being a Shimotsuki give Zoro an unfair advantage?

• Yet to be determined, so far there's not been a single thing that Zoro has showcased that is explicitly due to Shimotsuki genetics.

• Hard to discredit the arduous training he puts himself through and that can definitely be used as an explanation for his immense physical strength. We don't see many people hone their bodies to the extent Zoro does.

• Zoro was taught swordsmanship in a dojo run by Shimotsuki. He did not magically spawn into the world with that skillset. Zoro trained harder than anyone else to the point where he was stronger than the adults. But he also fought the same opponent 2001 times and suffered defeat every time. There are very few who would have the willpower and determination to continue fighting the same opponent after each loss. He likely improved drastically through these duels.

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How is lineage handled in One Piece?

• A key theme in one piece is "your lineage does not define you" and that is shown plenty of times throughout the series. We have Ace, the son of the pirate king, who questioned his worthiness to even be alive due to his lineage but eventually came to believe that he did in fact deserve to live after meeting people like Luffy, Sabo, and Whitebeard. We have Luffy, the son of the leader of the revolutionary army and the grandson of the greatest marine ever, and yet … he chose a completely different path in life and is utterly indifferent to the reputation of his father and grandfather. Sanji, the biological "failure" or a tyrannical scientist dictator who rejects that side of him. The list goes on and on. The bottom line here is people don't necessarily get to where they are or become who they are due to who their parents are. That does not form their character or dictate their place in the world. Does Zoro want to be the strongest swordsman because of Ushimaru or Ryuma? No. Did Zoro get his unwavering resolve and drive because of Ushimaru? No, not necessarily. Being a biological Shimotsuki has not shaped Zoro's character in any way up to this point. He is still at his core, an extremely resolute warrior who will push himself to insane measures in order to accomplish his mission and people he has never met can never change that. That's just who Zoro is due to his own volition and code, and that is still inspiring.

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Was this necessary? Does it actually add anything to Zoro's character?

• Connects him to an intriguing and important plotline that is intrinsically linked to the current arc and struggle.

• Gives him more of an identity whilst not detracting from the foundation of what his character is built on.

• Would not compare this to Sanji's Germa development. Sanji's past with Germa became an intricate part of forming his character and gave us key insight into why Sanji was the way that he was. This would do no such thing and I can understand why one might think this addition to be "unnecessary" for this very reason. That being said, given my stance on this not negatively affecting Zoro's character up to this point, I can only see this as an avenue for potential insight into the history of Wano whilst also connecting Zoro to an important part of the lore and history of the one piece world as a whole. Makes the scale of the Straw Hat's journey seem even grander. The crew that will flip the world upside down. There is an aspect of fate that surrounds the formation of the straw hat pirates. This story definitely doesn't try to fool the reader into thinking the main cast are a bunch of no name randoms. Going back to chapter 100 during the introduction of Dragon, we see the quote from Roger which states "These things cannot be stopped. An inherited strength of will. One's dreams. The ebb and flow of the ages. As long as people hunger for freedom, these things will exist". The passage of fate has brought these incredible individuals together, and Zoro is no exception.

• A lot of the potential to come from this is yet to be revealed and explored. There is plenty of different directions Oda could take this for Zoro's character if he so chooses. I will hold my judgement until that point to really say this has negatively impacted Zoro's character.

--

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*Apologize beforehand if you’ve been seeing similar points made already, I’m kinda late to the party. Just here to give my overall two cents.
*I’m sure I missed a lot of aspects about this topic as a whole, so please feel free to ping me with any questions, additions, or disagreements
*This topic is a LOT more subjective than it seems. There are some points from the opposing side of this debate that I do actually agree with. I’m just giving my take on this side of the argument which I largely find myself a part of. We don’t all interpret Zoro’s character in the same way, nor do we all enjoy Zoro’s character for the exact same reasons and that’s fine.

fast kite
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• Yet to be determined, so far there's not been a single thing that Zoro has showcased that is explicitly due to Shimotsuki genetics.
I'm probably going to be repeating myself here, but sure. Not many things are explicitly due to genetics/lineage, but things don't have to be explicitly because of it to have an impact. Who is to say Zoro didn't achieve such high results because the Shimotsuki genetics aided him in some way? That would still cause some kind of impact imo.
A key theme in one piece is "your lineage does not define you"
Sure, it does not wholly define you, but it's undeniable that there are parts that define you, regardless. Ace wanted to entirely be viewed as separate to Roger, yet he undoubtedly inherited a lot of Roger's tendencies, such as fighting people who insult his friends, never backing away from a fight, and exuded some qualities that made multiple view him as the future pirate king. Luffy may have no knowledge of his Dad or what he does, yet finds himself on a similar line of a battle against the WG, against the CDs, like his father, and a similar disposition to his grandfather. It's hard to say how much of this is chalked up to coincidence, or genetic dispositions. In the same manner, who knows whether or not Zoro simply had a natural disposition to just want to be the greatest swordsman. Who knows how these genetics have defined him. The fact that he is so inherently tied to them, despite having no knowledge of them, to me, indicates that yes, actually in some way, these genetics have influenced him. and they may also influence his natural talent as a swordsman. Do not forget, the only person whom he could never beat was similarly a Shimotsuki, so who is to say these same genetics and same disposition did not affect Kuina in a similar manner?

modern anvil
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The idea of "hard work alone can let you reach the peak" is an admirable and inspiring saying, even if it is not that realistic. It allows majority of us to sympathize because we will self insert ourselves as no-talent guy who can work hard.

Common misconception in most shounen stories is that the MC doesn't have talent, and they reach their achievement by pure hard work alone. In actuality, to reach higher than the others, one needs not only hard work, but also many other aspects such as talent, relations, luck, etc. This is true in shounen tale and in real life. Everyone put 10 points in their hard work, no one higher than the other. Some of them gets another 10 points because they have talents. Some are higher than the others. One of them gets 10 points because of luck. One stands above all, because they have hardwork, talent, and luck. This is one example.

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If we apply this to One Piece, can Luffy reach his current standing if he is the son of Usopp and Kaya? Luffy is born with good genes. Like it or not, his gene contributes a lot to his strength. Else he won't understand Future Sight during Katakuri fight or came up with unique tricks against Enel. Ivankov also noted that its normal for him to have high will because he is Dragon's son. Overall, talents can signify one's power ceiling.

Luffy, Zoro, all have talent. Oda did a great job in making them work hard too. This is why they will become Pirate King and WSS, they are talented people who works hard.

TLDR: Zoro is someone who has both talent and hardwork. His lineage reveal is just an answer on how can he be that strong/it made sense now why he is strong.

west turtle
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Thank you, this is my postion but actually articulated well. Perhaps I'm cynical, but reaching world strongest swordman with having nothing on your side except good effort leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's not how it works. The hardworker will be overtaken by the person who worked just as hard but happened to have an edge. So knowing Zoro comes from good stock just fills in a blank that fans like me would have assumed anyways.

I think so far, this kind of reveal is the best it can go. It ties Zoro to the current action in a way us fans can appreciate without having to have Zoro react to the knowledge. Though who knows, he might find out in the post arc party

fast kite
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So anyone who held the title must be special? Does that apply to anyone who rises to prominence? It's not that people who rise to prominence are special, it's just only special people can do it?

west turtle
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It's the nature of competition, especially on a global scale, that the number 1 would be a cut above

steel island
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The hardworker will be overtaken by the person who worked just as hard but happened to have an edge. So knowing Zoro comes from good stock just fills in a blank that fans like me would have assumed anyways.
But that's the thing. It's kind of portrayed to us that no one is working as hard as Zoro for this goal or are as dedicated as him to achieving it. Ofc there are plenty of people who share that dream but no one is actually as driven as Zoro is to make that a reality. That's why I don't think Zoro having lineage is a copout for working hard or offsets his work ethic because he doesn't give an inch

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He's not normal

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Never has been

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That's what separates the people at the top from the rest

fast kite
steel island
# fast kite > • Yet to be determined, so far there's not been a single thing that Zoro ha...

And I can't really disagree with this sentiment, part of the disclaimer I put at the end of my message applies to this. I understand the consternation surrounding "what if" Zoro's lineage gave him the slight edge. We have no way of proving or disproving that. Maybe he did have more innate talent due to him having special lineage compared to if his parents were random nobodies. I think that's a somewhat fair misgiving about this whole situation. But we can still use what we see on screen from Zoro. No one outworks him, no one wants it more than him, and no one is willing to go to the lengths that he is for it. There are some intangibles that you're born with regardless of who your parents are. I'm no genetics expert, but there are insanely high achievers in this world who come from humble beginnings with low achieving parents. I don't personally feel like Zoro's character is now in any way cheated from me due to this, nor do I think everything about his character and what drives him can now be explained by "because he's a Shimotsuki". Gonna apply the same to Luffy. I don't discredit his drive in life because he has a high achieving father and grandfather. Some people are just born with the drive

keen jacinth
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Why does lineage matter so much to others? 🤔

west turtle
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Becoming WSS is the same achievement to me any way you slice it. If Zoro had still been a no name at the end of the series, I would just assume he had had good genes

steel island
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You think you can only achieve greatness if you have good genes?

keen jacinth
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Zoro is probably just going to go "and so?" He don't care 🤣

fast kite
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Sure. I'm not saying he didn't work hard for it. but to me, it becomes more of a question of, if he wasn't, how much harder would he have to work for it? How much longer? Would he reach this same level of skill and strength by the time he's 30? 40? An innate advantage that makes him require to put in less work. The difference between Luffy and Zoro, is that Luffy was always shown as someone who had luck, genetics and circumstance on his side. While Zoro was always portrayed as the insanely hardworker who managed to keep up with someone as blessed as Luffy. So it does undercut it a bit when we learn "oh hey, actually Zoro was kind of as blessed as Luffy too"

steel island
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I think that's fair

fast kite
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like obviously, not as blessed, but you get my point I think.

steel island
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Yeah

west turtle
# steel island You think you can only achieve greatness if you have good genes?

"Everyone put 10 points in their hard work, no one higher than the other. Some of them gets another 10 points because they have talents. Some are higher than the others. One of them gets 10 points because of luck. One stands above all, because they have hardwork, talent, and luck,"

I subscribe to this logic. It's not just greatness, it's the very best. You need everything to work for you

steel island
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I can't really dispute that. I don't personally look at it from that angle given his hardwork and drive will always be at the forefront of my mind when thinking about Zoro's success, but yeah, definitely a valid concern

fast kite
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I think that's a fair stance. It's reasonable considering that's generally how things work. but a big issue is simply how it's portrayed here. Is that we're lead to believe he came this far with purely hard work, then we learn there may be an external element that helped him.

keen jacinth
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How come when it came to Zoro's lineage people are clamoring but when we got Sanji being shown as an experimented being everybody just accepts it as part of his character? Would people have accepted Zoro's possible Shimo lineage better if it was shown first? Because I have seen people comment like "we already got Sanji as a prince we dont need Zoro to be coming from royalty too" in some way line

fast kite
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Like, it's CONSTANTLY reinforced that Zoro is the only one who trains so consistently and so hard. When we can compare it to Luffy and even Sanji now, we see that they have had some element of inherent advantage that gives them their power, and Zoro was portrayed as the dude who just worked harder to keep up.

valid belfry
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even if u have lineage to master your powers you were passed down to its a very challenging task, so even if u were the son of roger u still need to practice your powers like ace did across his whole childhood with Luffy who was the son of dragon

steel island
# west turtle "Everyone put 10 points in their hard work, no one higher than the other. Some o...

Sure, a lot of successful people will tell you they needed a degree of luck to get to where they are. But that doesn't necessarily apply to lineage. Zoro has been lucky in terms of his circumstance and being at the right place at the right time. Likely as an act of fate. He somehow came to Shimotsuki Village. He met Luffy which if he hadn't, there's no way he'd be this close to achieving his dream as he is now.

west turtle
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I agree, I see all three facets working for him. Zoro puts in superhuman levels of effort, however he also has luck. The time he tested sandai gave me chills.

To better articulate, I don't see lineage as a detractor of accomplishments because even if his bloodline remained unknown, that doesn't mean he didn't have parents. Everyone has their potential laid out in their genes. Zoro becoming WSS would prove his lineage not the other way around. Getting the confirmation this way doesn't bother me at all. So far at least

keen jacinth
# fast kite Like, it's CONSTANTLY reinforced that Zoro is the only one who trains so consist...

He is still that dude tho. I think it's just reader view. If you believe lineage or genes always gives advantage. Maybe there's some fate play in here but that seems like normal shounen protag plot. Imo Zoro did it on his own. So what if he came from some legend? He wasn't taught by them. He didn't grow up like them. He wasn't given an opportunity to access those knowledge and experience.

west turtle
hallow thistle
# keen jacinth He is still that dude tho. I think it's just reader view. If you believe lineage...

due to that last bit i feel like the argument against zoro's lineage is ironically flawed, people in real life are taught that they are the masters of their own destiny , so immediately boxing in zoro because we now know he had any kind of lineage is seemingly just going against the life lesson we have been taught. now that zoro's lineage is prestigeous , he sucks and we should all throw rocks at him :( makes me sad . i think even more so thats the bigger message in one piece: that no matter what lineage you are from, good or evil or genius or no name, you still hold your own destiny in your hands.

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like you said, zoro made it through with his own experience, he was untainted by his family, i didnt really want every single strawhat to be some kind of no name orphan, that itself as a tired trope as well, so im glad for some spicing up of some pasts

fast kite
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I mean, the only no name orphan we have is literally Nami and Chopper? and Franky I guess? but the thing with Franky, as is true for Brook, Jinbei and Robin, is that they have life experience that benefits them. They're all much older, which compensates for inherent talent that the others have.

hallow thistle
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nami chopper franky, zoro before recently, sanji before recently, brook has a mystery past

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they were all kind of blank slates and if they all stayed empty like that idk how id feel id probably still love the manga of course but would always feel like something was missing

fast kite
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also, feels kinda contradictory to say "he was untainted by his family" then say "I didn't want him to be a no name orphan"

terse vector
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Family is his identity but not the fuel behind his efforts

hallow thistle
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i also dont mind that the pirate king's wings, who himself has a sick family line, also had some sick family lines, it was never about "i love how no names grow into something substantial" thats always gonna be the case becaose of "you make your own destiny" but luffy has had a sick family tree for a long time now so i was just basically ready for the other apples to drop (sanji and zoro)

keen jacinth
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After reading Mips. Honestly I will just have to repeat my own thoughts that it's down to the reader's view. Like Mip says Zoro is all flushed out. I don't. From the start Zoro was portrayed as part of the 'monster' crew so he wasn't normal to begin with. You can look at it as only just all stemming from his actions of always training and giving it all just as himself or you can have it like he maybe has a bigger thing in his past like being part of the blood line.

There's a lot of fate play in these types of stories. For me I find fate plots as just an ending with no path. People have to actually do something in order to get to that ending. Like the means justify the end sort of thing 😆

modern anvil
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One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that hard work has a clearer limit, which is time. Zoro and Pirate X both work hard 24 hours a day. So if we want to value someone's work hard, ultimately, everyone must be maxed/capped at a fixed value, because everyone has the same amount of time.

sage dome
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The problem I have is now the samurai will give respect to zoro more because of his lineage not because of his skills or may even let him inherit shusui because of it... If oda would have went with inherited will route instead of lineage then I would have no problem

fervent veldt
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He still inherits the will of the samurai regardlessly. His fighting style is an eternal testament to the promise he made with Kuina and the lessons learned from Koushiro.

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These are things Zoro decided for himself regardless of where he was from.

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This similar to how Luffy, who despite having quite the reputable lineage (The World's Most Wanted Man and The Hero of the Marines) is held up by his own merits

jolly obsidian
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Majority of his goals is driven by his friend

fervent veldt
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The biggest argument one could make is that Wano is bigger on those old fashioned ideas, with them openly embracing ideas like inherited guilt (Kurozumi clan) and inherited greatness (Kozuki clan).

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but that still is just wano

jolly obsidian
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Hmm

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Bloodlines means shit nothing tho, Most of the characters we seen have trained shit ton to get the strength they are right now. Luffy Zoro Sanji Ace Sabo etc etc

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Oden was a freak tho

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and BM too

fast kite
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I think that's kinda blatantly false. Bloodlines still mean stuff. Just because people with strong bloodlines also trained, doesn't mean what they've inherited hasn't helped them.

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Or not even helped, but influenced them in some way.

jolly obsidian
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Luffy and Zoro literally grew up without knowing nothing about their bloodlines tho How does it influenced them?

fervent veldt
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They mean generics

fast kite
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Yeah. Mainly genetics/genetic disposition.

jolly obsidian
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I hate the genetics shit

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Sabo came from a weak family yet he's insanely strong

fervent veldt
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One Piece is pretty rational about that though. The biggest example is BM and her family. Some members inherited some of her monstrous powers, while others didn't. BM herself is a good example of lineage mattering

fast kite
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I am by no means saying inheriting genetics is bad. but all I say is that it definitely matters.

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How it matters, is subjective.

fervent veldt
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Regarding to zoro thiugh

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the genetics hardly matter

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as swordplay in OP is a matter of skill and dedication above raw power

fast kite
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For sure. The thing to say with BM is that she is like, a mutant. Which can be passed, but also isn't always.

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Sure, maybe. but genetic predispositions towards stuff still exist. e.g. body type that is suited towards it, particular muscle growth, and natural born talent. All can be influenced by it.

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All of these still require the work to make use of, not saying they don't. He'd be nowhere if he didn't work for it

fervent veldt
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Haki is the biggest deterrent to this though

fast kite
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but there's an argument to me made that it was easier for him because of it.

fervent veldt
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since it's based on the personality first and foremkst

jolly obsidian
fast kite
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Yeah, haki seems solely on the person. sans CoC, which may or may not be influenced by parents. Hard to say, though since it's determined at birth, I lean towards lineage playing a part in that one.

fervent veldt
jolly obsidian
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Also we don't know if Garp have CoC right?

fervent veldt
fast kite
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Yeah, I've made that point a lot here doom. I think, if we go with the assumption that Zoro is a shimotsuki, it's certainly very interesting the only people zoro seemingly had any trouble beating in the dojo were Kuina and the actual Dojo Master, Koushiro. both of which were Shimotsuki.

terse vector
fervent veldt
jolly obsidian
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If Garp don't have CoC then jaysus, he's one strong mf

fast kite
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It's all pretty interesting. imo, there's a lot of good points made on both sides. I really want to see what Oda does with Momo, because I think he does fit into this conversation as well. being aged up how he was, seems like Oda may be playing with latent Oden genetics or something.

terse vector
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umm. Even in real life, has lineage mattered in abilties? no...
like son of a famous cricketer can be bad at cricket even if the cricketer tries to train him

jolly obsidian
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the way Oda hid Momo…. I wonder we will see his adult body after the fight?

terse vector
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lineage should only matter on the respect he/she gets due to the clan/family's old efforts

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unless there are specific lineage abilities, which isn't a case in One Piece

fervent veldt
fast kite
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Could be both.

fervent veldt
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the kozuki along with the neptune family are explicitly stated to be important bloodlines,

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nefetari too pitentially

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so the idea of special traits passing diw already is thematized

terse vector
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Hmm

fast kite
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'cause doesn't seem like Oden inherited his gifts from Sukiyaki. Though may be some Kozuki genes playing a role, they were the protectors of Wano for 800 yrs, so surely some strong and gifted people were at the helm throughout.

jolly obsidian
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But the Nefetari seeming to be normal tho UsoppSus

fervent veldt
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it's mentioned by cobra a few times

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the gorosei really were not happy about anrouge celestial dragon family either

fast kite
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I wonder if anyone is against Robin being in this conversation? Like, what she accomplished as an 8 yr old, surely has something to do with a combination of hard work + natural talent, perhaps something inherited from her mother?

jolly obsidian
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hmm, I means..... depends on what you means, she barely fought anyone

fervent veldt
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being born into the hotbed of archeology

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and the combination of being a loner that would be more inclided to read

fast kite
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That's true as well. There's a big element of circumstance there too.

fervent veldt
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that seems like a stronger factor

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but yes you could ask yourself

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do people birth that cukture

jolly obsidian
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Do you means the way she survives?

fervent veldt
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or does the culture birth the people

fervent veldt
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she was born into a place famous for knowledge

fast kite
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Referring to her ability to learn what she was able to, when she was just a child.

jolly obsidian
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well.... Culture

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she grew up in a library didn't she?

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Clover taught her how to read ponegylff

fast kite
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absorbing knowledge takes time as well. She would entirely be what most people irl would call a child prodigy.

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No, she's self-taught. She only used whatever reference materials the other scholars had, but in secret.

jolly obsidian
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hmm I see

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Since we don't know Olvia background, it's hard to say

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But she died pretty young didn't she?

terse vector
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Prodigies come from all types of Background tho. Not directly related to Lineage

fast kite
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Yeah. There's obviously a lot that plays into things. Birth circumstance is always a big one. It is effectively the nature vs nurture argument.

jolly obsidian
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I could argue since Robin grew up absorbing the knowledge of history instead of being genetics... allowing her to mature faster I guess

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Ofc, seeing Saul and her people died doesn't help

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Hmm make me wonder if Robin make dark jokes to cope with Ohara.....

fervent veldt
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part of it certainly is

glacial lance
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probably due to how dark that time in her life was

frosty spindle
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zoro might be a shimotsuki have a famous and strong lineage, but still he was a random kid training in a village on the east blue, he has shimotsuki lineage but he still had to train a lot to become stronger

hallow thistle
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Ace is a good example of “genetics and destiny” , his genetics helped him with exactly 0 things in life , his genetics were a detriment to him despite being the genetics of the pirate king, and ace did everything he could in life to actively be nothing like his dad “you make your own destiny in life” it’s not determined by your genetics. Momo is nothing like oden when they were both 8, etc

terse vector
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But for zoro case, it might matter

hallow thistle
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Kuina was a shimotsuki and she died falling from stairs

terse vector
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I mean for daimyo, you gotta be strong from young age ig

terse vector
hallow thistle
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Anyway I gotta disagree , zoro will actively not care even when he does find out

terse vector
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Yeah he wouldn't. I also wouldnt as fate and destiny are far too abstract thing to care about and just depends on the perspective

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But that doesn't specify to the interpretation many fans would have... and its like he walked in his path of his fate so the lineage is the reason for his motivation and his strong progress

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Like this would be one of the point against the destiny thing

hallow thistle
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Any number of swordsmen in this series could have come from prestigious families , we just don’t get focus on them , and I’m not talking about esoteric meaning of destiny , I just mean making your own path in life

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Not determined by what families have set up for you

terse vector
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Yeah I support that opinion too. But one could look at it the way I mentioned too

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and it might to some extent undermine zoro's achievement too

gaunt flame
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It’s already shown that people who are naturally strong like luffy, yamato, katakuri, ace, etc are all because of genetics

hallow thistle
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I think In the end it’s just up to the viewer , I never cared that zoro was a no name , I personally always wanted him to have a name , that was never gonna be a minus for me

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But yeah I get what you mean goro

terse vector
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Not that I would care it. Like I have been saying 'A child of a famous athlete might be extremely bad at sports'

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There are plenty cases for it irl too

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And OP doesn't have abilities specific to clan or family

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It has specific to race but not specific to family

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So it might be a bad thing for Sanji to be a lunarian but not for Zoro to be a shimotsuki

gaunt flame
terse vector
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Idk what that means... I don't follow basketball but I guess it means my point was understood

hallow thistle
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Setting up expectations for lineages I think is Exactly what this series is teaching us not to do

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Momo has a job to do tho we can’t count him lolol

terse vector
hallow thistle
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Well I think wano is a detriment to that argument

terse vector
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But I do agree its most towards Inherited will than Lineage

hallow thistle
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Because everyone has expectations of momo and he must meet those expectations

terse vector
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I mean he is meeting the expectations due to his development along the way

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meeting luffy and stuff

hallow thistle
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Yeah true , it’s his own development , didn’t take the path oden did

terse vector
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Not due to being the son of oden but due to meeting luffy and .. You get my point

hallow thistle
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None of momos dragon strength will come from oden genes

terse vector
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Yeah

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Oda did good contrast by introducing Yamato Ngl

fast kite
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Sure, and again, what I was talking about with doom about wanting to see what exactly Momo does is gonna be important to do this discussion, 'cause imo, it seems like Oda has set up this thing where adult momo is coming up here and possibly fighting, with just minimal knowledge of the dragon fruit and seemingly oden genetics. and it's like, how much are these genetics playing a factor, specifically with his strength. 'cause we know he has not trained for 20 yrs, he has barely trained much at all.

terse vector
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Yeah. That's why I don't want him doing much except than like breathing fire

hallow thistle
fast kite
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I resent the idea that his strength will come from his fruit, because Orochi is a clear example of a fruit not giving you inherent strength when it comes to zoans. It requires a strong body as well.

hallow thistle
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Not exactly strength but extra magical ability

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I should be specific , because momos wouldn’t be the same as orochis

terse vector
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Yeah as we know flame clouds doesn't seem to be dependent on the strength

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Or concentration

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But if it is, then its a different case

hallow thistle
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Yamato explained how the power worked to him so my hope is that got the gears turning in his head

graceful venture
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Zoro specifically his lineage does not take away from his accomplishments. The dude has an ambition that he would rather die than not reach. He trains everyday and is constantly fighting strong opponents. If he was a Shitmotsuki or not it wouldn’t matter. Someone who works that hard will always be at the top no matter who they’re related to

tardy briar
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H

obtuse anchor
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read the channel description before posting

charred aurora
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Zoros lineage doesn't relate to his strength, we have seen many characters that are nowhere like their parents strength wise, mainly Momo and bm, as for his reputation, he will for sure be more known

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the difference between kid zoro and his other fellow colleagues was the amount of training they put , when he first came to the dojo he was getting his ass handed to him , until he surpassed them all , aside from kuina.

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on that note kuina was special , her father wasnt

desert wyvern
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Momonosuke wouldn't be a good example due to recent happenings in the manga, he may very well end up having Oden's naturally monstrous strength.

charred aurora
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ya but oden at age 4 was a monster , momo was 10 recently , and he displayed nothing impressive

quasi gull
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If anything his linage reveal adds weight to what’s already been showed. His moment with Mr.1, when he tested his luck with the Sandai Kitetsu and mastering Enma.

obtuse anchor
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and momo doesnt seem to be as huge as oden was at 18, even tho he's 28 now

desert wyvern
fervent veldt
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actually

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Punk Hazard guards might count

desert wyvern
charred aurora
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he is like 3 m

obtuse anchor
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i meant muscle mass

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momo's seems to be average

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but the main point is that literal genetics are different than an infamous bloodline influence

desert wyvern
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Oh, we didn't really get much for his muscle mass, Oden's arms weren't terribly swole himself

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But, saying that, Momonosuke isn't an Oden clone. He's half Toki, but I'm also not really arguing genetics in a hard sense. Oda's not going to pay attention to genetics in much more of a general symbolic way, as he's done for most of the series so far

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I wouldn't expect Momonosuke to be just as big and strong as his father at that age either since Oden got there from actually fighting his entire life, and Momonosuke just got aged up. What we'd have is whatever Oden's natural starting point would be at least

obtuse anchor
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btw bean, no big piece from you for this debate?

desert wyvern
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I ended up swamped harder at work than I thought I would be the end of this week, so I'll be dropping one around lunch today 😛

obtuse anchor
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nice nice, was looking forward to it

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still gotta read evan and vic's

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waiting for doom as well

desert wyvern
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I might have to do a 2 parter, one for rebuttals to arguments I've seen so far too

hallow thistle
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What is big piece

obtuse anchor
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a full essay

hallow thistle
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Oh I gotcha

obtuse anchor
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issue is that i dont have much space sweat

desert wyvern
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Just tag it as Part 1 of __ or some such, we'll compile them all into the post at the end if you want them pinned up so it's all good

gusty kraken
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lineage is an important part of one piece, but it feels like every example of a character relying on it as their "own accomplishments" is portrayed negatively: wapol, spandam, celestial dragons

I think oda's message is that lineage exists but your worth is independent from it (OG example is vivi, ace, sanji and now zoro)

west turtle
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Lineage contributes to your potential, but it still matters for you to actually make something of it. Spandam and CD's are the perfect negative example of riding on daddy's coattails

scarlet mirage
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Going to host the stage call tomorrow. Time & details are at the top of the server in the scheduled events tab

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Will also ping in #events about 10 minutes beforehand

frozen solstice
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I'll leave my 2 cents opinion of this topic just to put it out there

ornate kernel
fast kite
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yeah I mean we've never seen him train prior to wano and he did get bullied by his sister so probably wasn't really much physical growth from him before

summer frost
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tbh. zoro's character wouldnt be ruined if he really was a Shimotsuki as long as it never affected him. All it would do is give him a connection to Wano

rapid canyon
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The ronin trope, of a peasant fighting the men in power, is the core trait of his character development. Being found captured by petty crime, seaking the world greatest swordman to challenge him and being recognized, almost slicing a celestial and cuting a yonko. The romance of Zoro journey might not be lost, but could be damaged by the presence of a heritage from nonetheless than the god of the samurai.

modern anvil
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There are two topics that are closely related to the current debate's question: Relationship and Hardwork vs Talent.

## Relationship : Does someone's lineage benefits them in any way?

In this case, I think Zoro gained very little advantage from his relationship with the Shimotsuki. Example:

  • Monkey Family is a good advantage : Aokiji sparing Luffy & SH because he owed Garp favor
  • Germa is a disadvantage : Zeff got threatened to coerce Sanji

Other example would be:

  • If you're a Lunarian and you make use of your wings extensively, it means your lineage brings you benefits.
  • If you're a Celestial Dragon and asked a Warlord to train you, it means your lineage brings you benefit.

So far, Zoro does not get a notable preferential treatment (if you discount Wado sword) like Luffy, nor does he get into a bad situation because of it like Sanji.

CONCLUSION #1 : In terms of relationship, Zoro's lineage does not take or give anything to his character and strength.

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## Hardwork vs Talent

A lot of people seems to be fixated into profiling Zoro as "work hard over talent"-only. His extensive training and effort are a huge part of his character indeed. When the Shimotsuki revelation appears, people dislike it because for them, it means Zoro does have talent too, and not just workhard-only guy. They think his achievement would feel less impressive because he comes from a special family: a talented prodigy instead of a mere village kid.

Well, guess what people? Zoro has Conquerors Haki!
Most people seems to intentionally forget this. This mean that Zoro DOES come from the chosen/gifted group of people!

When his CoC revealed, it doesn't matter if he comes from Shimotsuki or even Kozuki family. Owning Conqueror Haki is much, much more special than whatever lineage you come from.

CONCLUSION #2 : If you can accept that Zoro has CoC, then you must accept that he IS special, or gifted, or talented. He is not a hardwork-only type of guy. Thus, his Shimotsuki lineage does not take or give away anything from his character. He is already super special.

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## AFTERWORD

Does this nullify his hard work? No.

The idea of "hard work alone can let you reach the peak" is an admirable and inspiring saying, even if it is not that realistic. It allows majority of us to sympathize because we will self insert ourselves as no-talent guy who can work hard.

Common misconception in most shounen stories is that the MC doesn't have talent, and they reach their achievement by pure hard work alone. In actuality, to reach higher than the others, one needs not only hard work, but also many other aspects such as talent, relations, luck, etc. This is true in shounen tale and in real life.

Case example :

  • Everyone put 10 points in their hard work, no one higher than the other
  • Some of them gets another 10 points because they have talents. Some are higher than the others.
  • One of the few people who work hard and have talent, gets 10 points because he gets lucky. That one guy stands above all, because they have hardwork, talent, and luck.

If we apply this to One Piece, can Luffy reach his current standing if he is the son of Usopp and Kaya? Luffy is born with good genes. Like it or not, his gene contributes a lot to his strength. Else he won't understand Future Sight during Katakuri fight or came up with unique tricks against Enel. Ivankov also noted that its normal for him to have high will because he is Dragon's son. Overall, talents can signify one's power ceiling.

Luffy, Zoro, all have talent. Oda did a great job in making them work hard too. This is why they will become Pirate King and WSS, they are talented people who works hard.

TLDR: Zoro is someone who has both talent and hardwork. His lineage reveal is just an answer on how can he be that strong/it made sense now why he is strong.

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Dunno if I should ping the people or the role, but here we go @scarlet mirage

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P.S : Suggestion

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We should make a thread for each topic

scarlet mirage
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awesome, first person to actually ping for their message PogU I'll add it to the list. & as for that, we're looking into options

modern anvil
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So it can be archieved & catalogued properly

scarlet mirage
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Sounds good, but if you don't wanna waste your breath, we have already talked about it quite a bit internally. Yet to come to a decision right now, but at minimum, in the distant future we'd HAVE to use a thread if we run out of pin space

modern anvil
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Forgot this bit in my suggestion : with Debates on Threads, it can be shown in the top bar of channel list. More exposure = more debate participation

desert wyvern
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Short answer: NO. But, I think it's important to consider at least 3 different factors first:

1) How Oda has approached lineage and those benefits with other characters.
There are over 1000 characters in One Piece, but we only need to touch on a few for this subject. We can look at the way Luffy's progress has been shown in this series and even compare it to Koby's with Garp as a basis. Luffy is part of Garp's lineage, and we all know the kind of power that should be giving him, and it would be justified to assert that maybe that's why he's such an incredible monster. However, when we look at Koby, we see that it was the training that did it. Koby went from being less than nothing, Alvida's swabbie, to a master of Rokushiki and a captain in the marines in less than 3 years under Garp's training. In 10, and with a devil fruit, Luffy barely got as far as beating the strongest CP9 member ever. With Zoro, we can see a confirmed member of the Shimotsuki (Kuina) seemingly more gifted than he is, and this being after he's actually gone out of his way to train harder than anyone had ever seen.

2) How Oda has portrayed the struggle of hard work vs the natural benefits characters may get.
Following the example of Zoro vs Kuina, we can see that even with lineage and hard work he still couldn't beat someone who seemed to be naturally more gifted, and potentially from the same bloodline to boot. It would seem more that there is a natural destiny of someone with a hard work mentality becoming stronger than others with less of one than lineage being a large enough contributing factor to invalidate any of the hard working aspect.

3) How Oda has portrayed the growth of characters in the series, or more specifically Zoro himself in this case, in regards to how quickly or easily they achieve their milestones and the reasoning behind it.
Zoro's achievements have all been marked by an astounding, superhuman amount of training and dedication to his work ethic. He does literally nothing but sleep and train. His growth has been more than amazing, but still it's fallen behind others. He's been through more training than Luffy has in his life (given he spends almost all of his free time doing it), and yet Luffy's ahead of him. But it's never been because of lineage for either of them, Luffy didn't start with anything amazing and Zoro actually started out stronger than the adults around when we first saw him.

In closing, my answer is still NO. People in One Piece benefit from their personality much more than their lineage. We've had numerous examples of individuals who just happen to be powerful without being from a particularly noteworthy line, and vice versa. But due to the lack of impact on Zoro's general character developments, the lack of importance given to it, and the simple fact that Zoro has put in a superhuman amount of time training just to be as superhuman as possible, I'm comforatble with stating that his lineage has no real impact on his character at all.

We won't go into the danger of "Well he's just a strong samurai's kid, so it makes sense!" because that's just never how Zoro's been portrayed, and that's not how the series has portrayed any gifts of lineage in general. Achievements are never done because someone just happened to be born from strong parents, they happen because people are simply born strong. No matter who their parents or ancestors happen to be, it doesn't actually seem to impact any real portion of them. Their personalities are perfectly preserved, no one blames their behavior on ancestors. Their power is kept just fine, everyone in this series either trains or goes through general hell in order to get more powerful. We have so, so so many more examples of powerful people with no noteworthy lineage (if at all, lots of orphans) than we do of lineage playing any noticeable part in anything that actually occurs in the series, beyond events needing to transpire.

#

PART 2
Conqueror's haki. It is the only true mark of lineage lending itself to some appreciable portion of a person's character or achievements. I will acknowledge that the question of whether it's passed down from person to person or not is still up in the air for some, however in this case we'll be treating it as the assumed fact of the matter.

Allowing this fact, conqueror's haki is what Oda has truly used to display that lineage has both an effect, and no real effect to speak of. Conqueror's haki seems to be based entirely in the personality of the user, whether lineage passes it down or not. While personality is certainly something that can be and often is influenced by genetics, to reduce a person's actions and legacy to only the influence of their family's line would be to place a sweeping condemnation on any achievement ever. Everyone can be reduced to their lineage, at some point it is inevitable. However, to assert that would be to assert it for the sake of being pedantic, you'd do better complaining that they were born human and therefore have a better chance innately.

Conqueror's haki isn't something that can be used as an argument for lineage taking away from accomplishment for the simple fact that haki in general is a manifestation of a person's unique standing in life. It is a tool that is the expression of a person's will power. It is the very embodiment of a person's own strength of character and personal achievement, their own experience and growth.
No one gets powerful haki because they are someone's child. They get powerful haki because they have powerful personalities. It can be argued that the personalities are passed down, and while that's fair, that doesn't change the fact that these people can only grow more powerful, to maximize their potential even, because of the life they live now and not their family history. To close this part, I assert that not only is lineage not a factor in determining the worth of a person's path in life and accomplishments, but having conqueror's haki just serves to give us a concrete measure of their own unique growth. It proves their achievements can only be attributed to themselves, because haki can only grow based on personal worth.

charred aurora
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I just want to point out the debate is not about zoro, but about lineage in general, that includes other characters like bm, oden, momo, sanji, luffy, Robin, etc. But I suppose zoro was the reason this debate started

steel island
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@scarlet mirage (just for when you get online)

desert wyvern
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I was still formatting it a bit, I had to squeeze in a couple more words lmao

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I forgot Discord had a character limit LUL

steel island
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Conqueror's haki isn't something that can be used as an argument for lineage taking away from accomplishment for the simple fact that haki in general is a manifestation of a person's unique standing in life. It is a tool that is the expression of a person's will power. It is the very embodiment of a person's own strength of character and personal achievement, their own experience and growth.
No one gets powerful haki because they are someone's child. They get powerful haki because they have powerful personalities. It can be argued that the personalities are passed down, and while that's fair, that doesn't change the fact that these people can only grow more powerful, to maximize their potential even, because of the life they live now and not their family history. To close this part, I assert that not only is lineage not a factor in determining the worth of a person's path in life and accomplishments, but having conqueror's haki just serves to give us a concrete measure of their own unique growth. It proves their achievements can only be attributed to themselves, because haki can only grow based on personal worth.
I like this. I think Oda does a good job of portraying certain individuals having indomitable spirits and that is manifested through CoC and, as you put it, "an expression of a person's willpower". There being individuals like this all throughout the world, some having special lineage some not, shows to me at least that it's definitely more down to the individuals natural disposition that they carve for themselves. While I do get some form of consternation to lineage potentially playing a part in individuals being born with stronger dispositions than most, that's not explicitly given credence to nor is it how it's portrayed in this series. Some people are just born conquerors with the ambition to rise above and that can't solely be attributed to who their parents are.

desert wyvern
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Yes, and if you suddenly wish to do it for someone whose parents receive neither praise nor blame, and when that person goes beyond above and beyond hard work to get to where they are, then why not reduce every achievement ever to just "it was their parents"?

fast kite
#

Okay so for me, I am not arguing that lineage is the sole factor to strong people being strong, or reducing achievements to being solely done because of it. I am merely arguing that lineage can affect things. I agree that hard work and training matters, and you'll never get anywhere just with natural talent alone (unless you're someone like BM, even Oden may fall into this category). It's just, natural talent does exist, and may be something determined at birth, which can obviously, be influence by lineage. My personal issue with Zoro in particular, is that he was always portrayed as the hardworker who works harder to keep up with people with natural talent- Kuina, Luffy etc. and a factor that may influence him actually having natural talent that is somewhat retroactively included, can make it feel like maybe there's elements of natural talent that helped him. I am not saying it takes away from his hardwork or necessarily his accomplishments, but it takes away from the concept of hard work vs talent, when the person who represented hard work the most out of any character in this series, could possibly have natural talent as well.

#

but I agree, a large part of this comes down to personality, and ultimately, the effect that lineage has at best (again, excluding someone like BM 'cause she kinda breaks everything) is giving you the ability to make the most out of your work.

cosmic halo
#

If one comes from a great lineage, s/he will receive at least a minimum of benefit, namely genetics. Yamato is a prime example, at age 8 she blast CoC here and there. Or young Ace. They're both still kids, have limited outlook in life, and pretty sure still doesn't exhibit a great will (because lack of experience).
Those Kaido's subordinates, some will remark that "Onihime is truly the son of Kaido, strong even at young age".
Them crediting her as Kaido's son instead of her as Yamato/Onihime is already proof that lineage takes away a person's worth, even if it's just a little.
Granted, it's not canon, but surely there are some subordinates who think that way.

terse vector
#

Well for Kaido's case, it is because Kaido is from Oni race or smth

#

And CoC isn't dependent much on lineage but its just a birth potential

#

So not a good comparison I guess, for the CoC case.

obtuse anchor
#

@nocturne spindle not the place to ask such questions. read the channel description

desert wyvern
# cosmic halo If one comes from a great lineage, s/he will receive at least a minimum of benef...

There aren't really any "great" lineages to speak of in this series, though. When speaking of that, I can't help but imagine most would refer to just the immediate big character we know of, because an actual extended lineage won't have many powerful people in it in general. Having conqueror's, as I spoke about a bit, isn't necessarily a sign of it either. Yamato isn't a very good example, she only had conqueror's at the age of 8, we didn't have her even going as far as fighting adults like Zoro was.

But we can't actually use something you admit isn't canon and hasn't happened as proof here.

molten willow
#

This time I can't participate in the event but I love it I hope we do it more often

drifting girder
#

What the debate?

red lake
#

^

chrome mist
toxic osprey
#

It does, i mean. If they have a old family with a history of great swordsmans, then this wont make zoro any special from the family. But coming from a small not known family without history and becoming the best swordsman will be more interesting as a story. Now i see zoro not skilled but only doing what the other family members did before him. I never saw zoro as skilled tbh but still this makes him a less interesting character than it was before.

wheat kindle
#

It would most definitely reduce the value of his accomplishments if he was revealed to have shimotsuki blood tbh, I really don’t want it to be so

remote wharf
#

Nope lineage doesnt take away from characters accomplishment. Sure having lineage might make the journey easy but sometimes lineage can even become and impediment like a family of swordsman trying to make their son a swordsman while he enjoys wrestling. Also lineage only helps if the person has talent or mentality take benefit of it or else everyone with lineage will be accomplished. In case of zoro, despite whatever his lineage was, he never got special training or environment which could help him become better swordsman. And I dont think there are any kind of special genes in one piece that give swordsman talent. 😛 Anyways whatever zoro has achieved so far is all on his own talent, hard work and perseverance.

clear zenith
#

Genes are huge in OP. Notably if zoro has some swordsman lineage then that means all of the monster trio are sons of a big influencial man in the OP world

remote wharf
#

They are but is their a proven swords talent gene?

toxic osprey
#

Coming from 0 to 100, is a more interesting story and makes the character really strong and gives him a lot of accomplishments. Meanwhile if he comes from a strong family that was very good om a using swords, that means they have it on their blood and not like he trained but he only was able to awake his powers. No accomplimishemtns here.

clear zenith
#

Probably some factors that make you naturally attuned to being a swordsman, like reaction speed, additional strength in forearms etc.

sage delta
#

this topic is not that deep imo, I don't know why this has been seen as a big deal

clear zenith
#

I think zoro is cooler if he's just a fucking rando dude with a shitload of guts and determination rather than owing some of his development to his lineage

#

Like his most impressive moments have been down to his constitution rather than swordsman skill. Such as turning to face mihawk and "nothing happened"

toxic osprey
#

rayleigh was a random guy who made himself a legend, no old expert family using all types of hakis. So he worked and got himself into the legendary pirates

clear zenith
#

Then again saying that makes me see that my top zoro moments have nothing to do with lineage at all so maybe not that big a deal

karmic rivet
#

Do y'all think in real life if your dad is a pro swordsman his children automatically become pros? It has to do with skills and techniques being handed down, which zoro had none. All the training he's ever gotten was achieved by himself (and then Mihawk mentoring)

sage delta
#

why don't people think the same with Luffy being the son of Dragon and the grandson of Garp?

lethal falcon
#

Cuz hes the mc

toxic osprey
clear zenith
#

Do they?

#

Garp seems to be punchy punchy man like ludfy

remote wharf
clear zenith
#

Tbf dragon doesn't seem like a punch dude

sage delta
#

like if Zoro and Sanji have some big lineage stuff going on just like Luffy who might be the second coming of Joyboy, then what's the problem with Zoro and Sanji? it's not that deep

toxic osprey
#

I mean 90% of the anime does fight with fists, does this make them all family related??

sour spire
#

cuz hes had that since like w7 so there isnt much to recontextualize

clear zenith
#

You're the one who brought up fighting styles

remote wharf
toxic osprey
sage delta
#

I don't see how this lineage stuff ruins a character all of the sudden, that doesn't make any sense

clear zenith
#

Not ruin, just slightly less cool

toxic osprey
peak patio
# sage delta like if Zoro and Sanji have some big lineage stuff going on just like Luffy who ...

i lowkey always theorized that Luffy is joy boy and there never was an original joy boy, since a lot of the time you can interpret things to mean that joy boy exists in the future (like the fish mens promise to joyboy about noah, that could be them promising joy boy in the future, or roger saying he wishes he could meet joyboy, since he’s gonna die from disease before that which would explain why oda had Roger have a disease at all)

sage delta
#

so now Luffy is "less cool" because of that?

clear zenith
#

Cool idea

toxic osprey
sage delta
#

so I guess if Oda reveals that Usopp's father is strong and Usopp becomes stronger and gets feats y'all are just going to see that as "cheating" or "less cool" because he has a strong father?

chilly sandal
#

Usopp’s father was already revealed to be strong early on though - at least, since he is in Shank’s crew

#

I don’t think zoro’s lineage would be as big of an issue if sanji’s wasn’t an entire arc. And the gap between luffy’s and sanji’s lineage is a few years, so it didn’t seem as ‘much’

peak patio
chilly sandal
#

The fact that zoro’s lineage was mentioned very briefly shows (to me) that Oda isn’t going to make it as big of a deal as sanji’s was

sage delta
peak patio
#

honestly I don’t really care about lineage, I feel like for zoro it makes total sense and same for sanji, I only dislike it when it feels completely out of left field (like ace being Rogers son, I really believe that wasn’t originally intended)

toxic osprey
sage delta
clear zenith
chilly sandal
clear zenith
#

Didn't mean to replay to jesuvilla there my b

toxic osprey
chilly sandal
peak patio
sage delta
hallow thistle
chilly sandal
#

I am glad that luffy isn’t son of roger though - imagine the lineage arguments if that was revealed now ((:

toxic osprey
# chilly sandal It was

Sanjis family is just a military force with better weapons then others. But big moms pirates didn't even lack a bit on them.

chilly sandal
toxic osprey
hallow thistle
hallow thistle
sage delta
chilly sandal
chilly sandal
chilly sandal
toxic osprey
sage delta
# toxic osprey Why would luffy be less cool?

I was asking @clear zenith if Luffy being Dragon's son, Garp's grandson and the second coming of joyboy makes Luffy "less cool". Because he said that Zoro and Sanji having strong lineage makes them "less cool".

hallow thistle
clear zenith
#

They conquered a bunch of places

toxic osprey
clear zenith
#

How old are you

scarlet mirage
sage delta
#

like if people hate this "destiny/fate/lineage/inherited will" stuff in the story, you might as well drop one piece because it has always been one of its main themes...

pine saffron
#

Lineage doesn’t take away from a character, in fact I think it adds more layers to a character than just being a rando. I get the “underdog” aspect, but having an important lineage seems to have a more impactful meaning to the entire plot of the story itself.

azure perch
#

A lot of times lineage stuff just feels like monarchism in stories

sage delta
#

rip this channel

scarlet mirage
#

End of the lineage debate. This channel will be read-only until the next debate. The results and arguments are in the 📌 pinned messages if you'd like to take another read-through.

I'll also link to the beginning of the argument, if you want to read some of the shorter posts that weren't pinned.

Until next time!

desert wyvern
#

Welcome back!

idle vortex
#

eyy

crimson flame
ebon karma
idle vortex
#

what to debate

devout galleon
idle vortex
hot patrol
#

Debate?

devout galleon
#

Huzzah! The gates have finally opened elmofire

desert wyvern
#

Go ahead and check #events to see the current topic

zinc girder
desert wyvern
#

We'll be changing it in the description here soon

#

Be sure to put some quality time into your arguments guys, loved how it turned out last time so i'm looking forward to seeing what you have now.

hot patrol
#

Ok?

mellow pilot
jovial prairie
#

I think haki is pretty ok in the storyline

molten jackal
#

i think coo and coa are great, but coc makes the world of one piece feel quite unfair

idle vortex
#

mantra EnelLUL

desert wyvern
#

We're looking for more meaty posts

devout galleon
#

I’m excited to see the arguments against haki being an overall net positive

idle vortex
#

essay time

molten jackal
desert wyvern
#

No problem, no rush. Long as you've put some thought into it, you're good FrankyThumbsUp

timber granite
#

Yea use panels as well if you can. Take your time and write a meaty post. I’ll write something up late I have a lot of thoughts cPES_Wink

fathom sedge
#

I think it was a good addition to the story giving the characters somewhere to go, strength wise. I do find it slightly annoying in some cases though, such as how crocodile was defeated so early on, there should have been no way he wouldn't be able to use haki to beat luffy.

desert wyvern
#

I'll drop mine a bit later as well OrochiScheme

fathom sedge
#

But I think that's a byproduct of oda not knowing how long the story would go when he wrote alabasta

devout galleon
halcyon yoke
#

Debate

wanton flower
#

Haki is pretty inconsistent pre-timeskip and I think it's really weird that Busoshoku haki wasn't colored black...

coarse bear
#

What are we arguing about

wanton flower
clear zenith
minor void
#

I think Haki is an overall net positive, but I'm open to changing my mind. Abilities such as Future Sight and Gear 4 have made fights more interesting.

clear zenith
#

weither we can actually see it or not we don't know

main pivot
#

So the debate is currently going on ?

nimble eagle
#

What debate

desert wyvern
#

Yes, this channel will be where you can post and respond to arguments. I'd actually recommend using #manga or #also-manga for more general conversation, even about the debates, will make it easier with the slow mode on and all

#

You can also check the channel description

minor void
coarse bear
#

Haki kind of sucks but it’s effects are net positive. It allows an explanation for why characters without devil fruits are still strong. Also solving the problem with logias

desert wyvern
#

For help: From east blue to Wano, haki has unfolded into a central domineering power structure in One Piece that is incorporated into many of the moves/powers/and abilities for many of the current lineup of characters. Has haki been a net positive or negative for the series? Please present examples to support your argument.

devout galleon
#

Oh by the way, are we allowed to allude to other series for comparison as long as we don’t give away details or mention the name of the series?

desert wyvern
#

Would rather you keep other series comparisons out, just to keep it consistent with the rest of the manga channels. If you really need to make a comparison, just don't mention any titles or series details please. I know that's a bit restraining, but spoilers are still a big thing, lol

devout galleon
#

Understandable, I’ll try to keep it as vague as I can

minor void
#

Like Lucci has Haki...huh?

clear zenith
# minor void Anyone think it's a negative? I'd like to see the opposing side.

Honestly I find myself enjoying the fights before haki. It felt like it allowed for more room to breathe and creativity, like for example Luffy finding his way around Crocodile with the water (it worked well narratively too). Ofcourse a consistent way to counter logia's was need but I feel like it took away a bit of the magic from the fights.

marble saddle
#

“Has haki been a net positive or negative for the series” — how general is this question? Is it only relating to the power structure or the concept as a whole?

coarse bear
#

Lucci didn’t have haki pre time skip

desert wyvern
minor void
wanton flower
clear zenith
#

sadly manga that are 1000 chapters long will struggle with consistency

minor void
#

Hmm...I cant really think of times in Post Timeskip where elements really clashed like Luffy vs Crocodile, but I still think it's a good change.

#

I don't think that can make it a net negative. Fights are different, but not worse.

timber fern
#

haki good but its overused imo

chrome mist
desert wyvern
idle vortex
#

haki > df

desert wyvern
#

Remember guys, try to cite some sources too

#

@idle vortex You're going to have to do more than 2 words per message here

idle vortex
#

ok

wanton flower
desert wyvern
#

Absolutely has helped Luffy, but have fights become too two dimensional in its use? Are there any conflicts that could've been even better if they hadn't come down to strength of haki? Or is there any wasted potential because/when they do?

minor void
junior scaffold
#

I personally dislike how haki has retconned a lot of moments from early one piece into being haki. It feels like it takes away from the occasion for me.

broken owl
#

Haki was necessary for taking one piece from Pokémon type advantages to an even playing field that allows people without devil fruits to be actually relevant

desert wyvern
clear zenith
#

Well if we leave new world, grand line and east blue is ruled by logia df users and we of all people know how much of a pain in a** logia users are so haki is just a way to counter logia and zone ( endurance) so I am on positive side

junior scaffold
desert wyvern
#

There are only 10 logia users alive in the series right now. They're the second rarest thing out there, I wouldn't base an argument on how well they can be dealt with

#

3 of those are the admirals, one is Blackbeard, and Smoker didn't even go into the New World until just a couple of years ago

minor void
#

There are still plenty of fights where it comes down to DF or other abilities too: Franky vs Sasaki, Robin vs Black Maria, Kyros vs Diamante

desert wyvern
clear zenith
# minor void I don't think that can make it a net negative. Fights are different, but not **w...

IMO I find them a step down but not by a mile or anything
Seeing luffy win by strategy and improvising was far more engaging, the closest post-haki has come is Gear 4 and the variations but they don't quite capture the same feel. There's also the problem of how ridiculously powerful characters have become. Pre-haki strawhats where certainly stronger than a normal human but their fights still felt... human rather than seeing powerful demigods cut through rock giants or clash breaking the heavens.

desert wyvern
#

Some fans have taken that to mean maybe he did use haki then, but there are more than enough reasons as to why that just can't be.

broken owl
#

I dislike how Robin did not know of Haki, that just does not make sense to me

junior scaffold
minor void
clear zenith
#

Well to a none haki user it is just too much of a pain since he/she have to be crafty like luffy did all alabasta, Skypia ect

desert wyvern
#

No, nothing in Alabasta was ever referenced back as far as haki goes. Zoro was given a lesson from his teacher, but the lesson was only half of how Ryuo in Wano is actually used. All Zoro applied was the philosophy of a sword will cut anything and nothing, depending on the swordsman.

#

But, he never learns the whole flowing the will into his blade, otherwise he'd have been able to fight people like Enel later.

#

As for the logia argument, logias aren't really terribly important to think about. They're extremely rare, and can have other weaknesses, not the entire reason for haki existing

#

That was just never touched on at all, but observation haki doesn't seem to sense inanimate objects like that

opaque tusk
#

whats the new debate?

minor void
molten jackal
minor void
#

I don't think it's so black and white

mellow pilot
#

yall should debate but in VC

desert wyvern
#

We host a stage discussion at the end of the debate

broken owl
#

When is that

desert wyvern
#

Either Saturday or Sunday, depending on how the debate goes and who's available.

#

Go ahead and read #events , this is all mentioned there

broken owl
#

Ah cool

desert wyvern
#

If you'd like a ping for it directly, go ahead and grab the Discussions role from #old-role-info as well

minor void
clear zenith
#

Strategizing ?

minor void
#

I think Haki has given us a lot: Gear 4, Emna, Future Sight, Full Body Armament, Mantra, narratively powerful bursts of Conquerers (particularly in children)

clear zenith
minor void
#

Conclusion

hollow wing
#

One Piece battles are less strategizing and more about enduring to the end and winning because you can’t afford to lose

#

The latter usually leading to a power up

clear zenith
#

Due to haki luffy always got smacked by his grandpa

#

As for Lucci I don't see how it's much different than Doffy, especially with the Gear cooldowns and all.

minor void
#

I don't think Haki hurt strategy very much

clear zenith
#

Oh looks like I actually came full circle

desert wyvern
#

Haki is the reason Doflamingo couldn't just cut Luffy's head off and be done with it

#

There's a pretty heavy influence of it in that fight

clear zenith
#

Haki has been a negative and a positive i feel. It added alot but also practically nullified and near made Devil Fruits obsolete.

hollow wing
#

Dont see how Devil fruits were made obsolete at all

clear zenith
#

I guess in the end for me it comes to how the more loose style of pre-ts (and pre-haki) appealed to me better rather than the strategies themselves.

#

But it has given characters like zoro more capabilities.

hollow wing
#

People think Haki makes Logias much worse than they were but that’s cuz unfortunately we haven’t had one of the logia admirals center stage in a while

#

Logias are terrifying

glacial lance
#

literally what negative effect does haki have on the series?

broken owl
hollow wing
#

Katakuri is our best example cuz his fruit kinda acts like a Logia

#

“Special Paramecia”

clear zenith
#

And depending on where Haki goes from here that might get more exemplified

hollow wing
#

By crazy powers do you mean Cocting? Cuz beyond that I don’t see how Haki>the average DF

devout galleon
#

But it’s been shown just how much haki can enhance devil fruits

broken owl
hollow wing
#

Any random can get a decent fruit and become a powerhouse

#

Haki proficiency is much harder

clear zenith
clear zenith
hollow wing
#

Luffy vs Kata is a great example of Haki and DF techniques being combined

clear zenith
hollow wing
#

I see that as a cool positive

hollow wing
#

And it makes you more tired

broken owl
#

Any decent devil fruit more than makes up for its weaknesses with utility

clear zenith
#

As of now Haki isnt too much of a replacement, but as i said depending on where Haki goes it could make devil fruits obsolete.

hollow wing
#

Also there’s only one major drawback of DFs

#

Water

#

Which doesn’t come up in serious battles often

clear zenith
soft echo
#

all of you are wrong

hollow wing
clear zenith
hollow wing
#

Actually his whole crew

#

Is a DF frenzy

clear zenith
clear zenith
devout galleon
#

I think luffy vs hody was the first time water was really a present threat in op

hollow wing
#

Roger is dead

clear zenith
#

Shanks isnt

hollow wing
#

And Shanks and his crew may be our only showcase of no DF

#

Which is fine

clear zenith
#

Neither is Rayleigh

clear zenith
hollow wing
#

BM had tons of Paramecias, Kaido Zoans

#

BB will have random powerful fruits

#

Shanks and his crew only Haki

#

Why not

clear zenith
#

Doesnt Lucky Roax have a df?

lethal falcon
#

Not specified

rare lantern
#

I have a lot to say on this topic

hollow wing
#

No DF is confirmed for any of Shanks men

lethal falcon
#

Its just theories

fleet garden
#

Haki is definitely a positive thing

devout galleon
rare lantern
#

Be ready for an actually well formatted Vic analysis CrocoStare

rare lantern
fleet garden
#

It diversified the power system and it's been evolving

hollow wing
#

^

pastel dirge
#

Its net positive, at least for me

rare lantern
#

But I 100% understand why people despise it

devout galleon
#

Yeah I feel like that’s the general consensus for it so far

rare lantern
#

To me, haki is simply another cool tool in the toolbox

pastel dirge
#

Since it gives non logia users a chance in fights

hollow wing
#

It’s not even that

clear zenith
#

I'm honestly mixed. I recognise the positives but I crave for the simplier times.

devout galleon
#

Almost makes me wanna change my stance and argue devil’s advocate smug

fleet garden
#

It makes me happy because everyone can use haki, not just devil fruit users

#

So we've seen some crazy strong fighters who don't even have devil fruits

devout galleon
#

Keeps fights relatively grounded too

fleet garden
#

Like Rayleigh and Roger

pastel dirge
#

Yh exactly

hollow wing
#

It makes people like Shanks and Roger being monstrously strong make sense

pastel dirge
#

Power diversity

hollow wing
#

In a world without Haki we’d have to swallow Shanks being strong enough just because

pastel dirge
#

U wouldnt win a fight just cuz u had the stronger fruit

hollow wing
#

Oda does the DF and Haki balance well too

fleet garden
#

So now I'm wondering

devout galleon
#

It was clear Haki wasn’t an asspull just underdeveloped

fleet garden
#

What the people who think it's more negative want to say

devout galleon
#

At least as far as pre ts is concerned

devout galleon
fleet garden
#

True, also nah generally Oda has been able to integrate it into the story well

hollow wing
#

Before G4’s reveal I think I can understand why people would hate Haki

#

Because at that point

#

It was very basic

#

And seemed like an anti Logia tool

#

And also gave moments of Luffy dodging Pacifista shots

devout galleon
hollow wing
#

But not much beyond that

strong ocean
#

I think it has both its pros and cons but I lean more towards the positive side for sure

devout galleon
#

What are some cons ?

hollow wing
#

If I had to really dig deep into it, the only con I can think of is how CoC is handled

#

CoC being randomly given etc

devout galleon
#

Well

hollow wing
#

But even then I’m fine with it at this point because I can justify every CoC user so far

devout galleon
#

Yeah

fleet garden
#

Yeah. Okay the only thing in disappointed in about haki, is that Zoro has conquerors. But that's because it just makes no narrative sense to me

#

He doesn't really have a conquering spirit

thin marlin
#

There are like 16 coc users in the story it's not given to everyone

devout galleon
#

Zoro having conquerors is still a little strange to me too but I guess it makes sense

clear zenith
#

hali was great at tbe beginning when it was first introduced as 3 types but now it's starting to seem confusing especially the armanent haki's abilities

hollow wing
#

Armament Haki’s advanced applications can be confusing yeah

strong ocean
hollow wing
#

You have to read the Hyo and Udon explanation VERY carefully

fleet garden
#

Yes

hollow wing
#

To fully understand

strong ocean
#

If there are 16 now, how many more will there be by eos? I really don’t want anything over like 21 but I’m sure we will get to 20

hollow wing
#

The only candidates imo are Garp, Dragon

#

Idk

#

He could make Coby have it

#

Whoever he gives it to I feel like I’d be ok with it because he’d have a reason to

desert wyvern
#

Truth be told, conqueror's haki is significantly more rare than the series presents it to be so far.

clear zenith
#

and the fact that rayleugh didn't teach luffy the new type of armanent which is suddenly a "big" factor in the storh of one piece

hollow wing
desert wyvern
#

That's fine, Rayleigh specified he only wanted to teach Luffy the basics

#

That's exactly what he did

desert wyvern
rare lantern
#

I have a question

strong ocean
rare lantern
#

How was it that the bell Luffy used to hit Enel uhhh, hit Enel?

desert wyvern
#

But yeah, that is also because we're only seeing Luffy's perspective and the whole world still

#

Because his fist was sticking out of the front

rare lantern
#

Of the bell?

desert wyvern
#

Yep

rare lantern
#

Ohhh

#

Alright, in that case, that helps my little thesis I got going here

azure depot
#

Didnt enel make the golden ball from his ship so maybe it had logia properties that it allows it to hit him

terse vector
#

The downside of Haki for me is that Devil fruit was a good system. It was something that depended on the specific matchup and it had a significance, it had a ingenuity to it. Like Luffy vs Crocodile, Luffy vs Enel. Inclusion of Haki has made the importance of Devil fruit kinda pointless except for their certain characteristics. Like the rarity of Logia make sense about its ability, about it being invulnerable to physical attacks except for the matchups. Having haki makes it a linear system where the majority it is if B has strong haki than C and A has stronger haki than B, A would be stronger than C. Granted other stuff like ADvanced observation haki is there, but its like an extension their physical abilities rather than a combination/matchup.

Another prospect of not having Haki would be that even the Yonkos would have to use seastone for beating fodders with logia. And this leads to a world/system where one of the significant thing would be piracy of sea-stone, the one with the largest supply of seastone would be near the top and the hunt for seastone would be one of the piracy.

it would be better with just having Conqueror's haki which would seperate the people at the top with fodders, highlighting that they are the only persons with potential to rise at the top. So yeah just the role it is playing right now, but without much stuff.

But yea Color of Observation wouldn't also make much of an issue as it doesn't affect the ingenuity of the devil fruit system, would just add as an extension for their physical ablities

thin marlin
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So is your stance for as it to be net positive or a negative? I can't exactly tell with your argument

terse vector
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net negative

thin marlin
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How has haki made the ingenuity of devil fruits pointless when we're having fights like we have had on Onigashima and Luffy vs Katakuri?

terse vector
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Luffy vs Katakuri was mostly due to color of observation than the devil fruits

thin marlin
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Katakuri married the use of his observation perfectly with his fruit

hollow wing
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Snakeman was the only reason Luffy was able to hit Katakuri and Kata’s fruit is the only reason he could dodge Luffy effectively

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Both DF related abilities

terse vector
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color of observation is the thing which allowed him to dodge them. basically it boils down to who has better color of observation than the significance of devil fruits matchup

desert wyvern
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That fight actually didn't end because of observation at all, it was entirely from the devil fruit. Luffy gaining advanced observation didn't assist him in defeating Katakuri.

hollow wing
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Future Sight means nothing if the attacks are too fast to dodge, and the speed of the attacks were due to DFs

azure depot
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Katakuri armament was still significantly stronger when they collide fist luffy had a moment screamin and his hands in pain

subtle cairn
thin marlin
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G4 is Luffy being able to marry his fruit's ingenuity to his ability to imbue haki in a very innovative way in order to boost either his offense or defense or speed

hollow wing
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Also I get the preference of weird elemental matchups like Luffy needing blood/water for Croc or Luffy countering Enel but in the long term anytime someone fights a logia and finds their counter it would feel forced

terse vector
thin marlin
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Finding a counter for Akainu's fruit would only mean you need to have Aokiji on your side

hollow wing
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So essentially you want a Seastone trade/seastone weapon system more fleshed out as opposed to Haki

thin marlin
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But then the availability of seastone as a resource comes in

azure depot
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Theres a number of things the marines can do to counter df users but still havent

terse vector
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hence the struggle for the more amount of seastone, and countless opportunities it forces to open

thin marlin
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It doesn't, seastone as a resource is already too difficult to manage and to retain, it requires an immense amount of resources at disposal to even get a hold of

hollow wing
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I don’t think Oda wants seastone trade wars as a part of his story, otherwise we’d see more of it than we have

At this point we’re on the island that should have some of the most seastone use and we see very little being emphasized

desert wyvern
thin marlin
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Seastone is not effective for the power weve seen from extremely high tier fighters already

desert wyvern
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The Katakuri fight presents the exact opposite interaction with haki, where stronger haki is actually overcome by a devil fruit

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As opposed to vice versa

thin marlin
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Take a fighter like one of the Yonkos and fit them with Seastone and the only chance you have is to restrain them with immense effort of waste

azure depot
desert wyvern
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Luffy is unable to get through Katakuri's armament until he uses his devil fruit to its best, and his observation haki is circumvented by Snakeman, not Luffy's own observation.

terse vector
terse vector
azure depot
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Even while in snakeman whenever they collide fist kata still had the pushback luffy put everything in the fact if he was faster then him he would still be able to connect decent blows

terse vector
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seastone being ineffective in that case isn't related to devil fruits at all

thin marlin
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What

terse vector
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seastone not being able to restrain big mom was due to her innate physical strength being a lot more, right?

thin marlin
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She was also asleep

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They wrapped her in seastone chains

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Very heavily

terse vector
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I remember that.
And the reason for it being ineffective was related to her physical strength? It restrained her devil fruit?

desert wyvern
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Seastone restrained Big Mom perfectly, there was no issue at all

thin marlin
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It restrained her pretty well

terse vector
thin marlin
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Yeah it restrained the use of her fruit

proper rain
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Hmm about Haki I see

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Lol if Haki didn't exist,fodders like Caribou could one shot Shanks

chrome mist
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I believe that Haki adds a net positive to the series.

One of the fundamental points of the series is about the journey and seeing characters -- whether Luffy or not -- progress through the world, climbing the ladder to take the throne of Pirate King.
I think that Haki is a brilliant and interesting way to highlight the progression that had been sorely lacking pre-timeskip and wasn't built on enough -- like with Zoro's Ashura or other weird powers that weren't related to Devil Fruits at all (Sanji's diable jambe). I do not think these ruin the series by themselves, because if used sparingly they can still make the story interesting and match the absurd tone of the series, but it can also greatly diminish the overall impact of seeing them beat their opponent.

When I talk about progression I think of a "maximum bar" set on the abilities the characters can have and gain. This mechanic, I think, only improves the characters reaching the top more and makes these moments a hundred times more satisfying -- as seen with Roger vs Whitebeard setting up Luffy's new usage of Conqueror's haki.

One other brilliant use of Haki is through its flexibility in battles, which I find a lot of people underestimate.
Some of the examples can be obviously seen through the Katakuri fight, where the fight wasn't solely decided by who was stronger, but also who could stand longer and by finding creative ways to counter the haki through devil fruits.
Some of the other ones are through Luffy hardening his own (rubber) skin as to gain more tensile force and gain more power (https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0784-014.png), or Zoro using Haki and strategy to enhance his own abilities as a swordsman and to get a good angle to cut Pica through, or Observation enhancing both a really good character moment and Usopp's sniper skills.

terse vector
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hmm, I guess yeah it adds to how creatively you can use your devil fruit. didn't realize that while writing that earlier.

But that doesn't help on the significance of logia as a rare fruit due to them not being affected by physical attacks and the loss of opportunity of matchup based on devil fruits. I think we have been robbed of that prospect due to arnament haki

chrome mist
# terse vector hmm, I guess yeah it adds to how creatively you can use your devil fruit. didn't...

About Logias, we haven't seen many in the new world to be able to make a fair assessment on whether it's as bad as you say, but from what we have seen of Caesar they are still able to be total threats (by removing oxygen, for example).

However the previous mechanics for Logias are still present with special paramecias, where Jinbei managed to counter Katakuri by throwing tea over his mochi (https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0863-015.png).

thin marlin
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Ok let me rephrase it, the effectiveness of seastone use comes in applications of it in very specific scenarios. The OP world under Vegapunk is seeing its first expanse into uses within specific contexts, moreso in the restraint of devil fruit users. However, battle conditions in the OP world are extremely unpredictable and as such the use of seastone can only come about in situations of one party having been extremely prepared with contingencies to use Seastone in a very effective manner. In offensive situations, it can be smithed into weapons like Smoker has but it doesn't determine the outcome of battles like we've seen very high level performers operate on with the speed and force they operate on. Additionally, we have the explosive use of seastone bullets, that's fair and well but again, it depends on the type of marksman and how effective those bullets are, especially against those who move and operate at high levels like the Shichibukai, vice admirals and above and the Yonko.

Coming to the logistics of seastone production and distribution around the world, it is extremely rare in most cases and only obtainable with high potential of monetary means, which means the use of it remains very rare. The offensive applications of seastone are thus usually restricted to handcuffs and restraints as I mentioned above and it means that at how combat situations here evolve, there is an increased use of one's own abilities to make sure of and the use of Haki, which provides that agile feel of engaging in battle without having to hinder themselves with the use of seastone

clear zenith
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I believe that haki is a positive to the series

rare lantern
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Yo I finished my stance, whenever you guys are done posting let me know, because I'd like to be all organized without interruptions NamiPray It's a bit lengthy

terse vector
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ah okay vic. I'll just take 3-4 minutes to finish typing.

rare lantern
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I'll wait for Saudaddy to finish too

hollow wing
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Vic is it multiple posts

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In length

rare lantern
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Yeah it is

hollow wing
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Ok

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Once you’re ready post it, I’ll just delete any message in between

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So warning to those typing after Vic starts sending

rare lantern
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Oh shit, cool

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I'll wait till you guys finish what you are typing now

signal helm
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Thank u all for behaving and being civil :) I have something to add myself but I need a nap so I'll post after, enjoy the convo everyone and btw some brilliant points have been made

hushed night
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I think haki is overall positive for the series but still preferred DF as the primary power system of the series now it's haki what determines ones strength.

Pre haki, battles used to be more creative and interesting in my opinion. It was not just about having stronger haki than your opponent.
e.g. crocodile vs Luffy is still one of my favourite battles.

I think Oda wrote himself into a corner with logia DFs and had to get creative everytime crew faced someone with the logia DF. Now finding creative solutions each and every time the crew faced logia DF would be a monumental challenge.
So oda went of all in one solution with Haki.

Now Haki itself is not a bad concept, it just makes everything pre TS a bit messy.

Someone already mentioned and I'd like to touch upon the CoC haki. It makes things a bit unfair for some characters. If CoC was something that could be learned then the things would have been more interesting and we could have seen more plot lines regarding mastery of CoC.

Haki has been net positive story-wise since it allowed characters to grow more but yeah as aforementioned it made things a bit messy pre TS.

terse vector
# thin marlin Ok let me rephrase it, the effectiveness of seastone use comes in applications o... 
Also about the logistics of seastone production, like I said in the first line, it would have more prospects of piracy, cuz like what Nami said in the sky island about them being pirate and taking the gold. Buying the seastone with money, or looting the supply of seastone. That would add to more sea battles, more ships raids, ambushes, baiting other ships for seastone. I might be forgetting some key moments while typing this, but did we have something that would feel like piracy after sabaody, or even Skypiea?```
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sorry for this format and also sry for ping.

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@rare lantern I am done with mine brother. NamiPray

thin marlin
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Yeah, Kid did tons of piracy and shady shit lmao, we've seen alliances and piracy actively being done between the Yonko, especially in regards to Big Mom and Kaido with how they move

#

Fed, let vic post his

chrome mist
thin marlin
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@rare lantern go ahead

rare lantern
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Alright cool, keep in mind, I'm a speedreader

terse vector
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ah I'll answer that after vic finishes

thin marlin
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Wait neko

rare lantern
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Thesis

Haki has definitely changed the landscape of fights as a whole in One Piece. It is an overwhelmingly positive aspect of the series. It is just utilized better in some parts, and in others, not so much.

Points

Firstly, The biggest thing that people have against haki is that now in the present story, fights feel more mundane, straight-forward, and without variety or strategy. I firmly disagree. Instead of the crazy circumstances that we get when characters lose outright to enemies, we now have a power system in place that influences outcomes directly beyond just the Devil Fruits. Another tool in the toolbox. A good example of how a regular DF fight goes is how Luffy beat Crocodile (Chapter 199 Page 19). Luffy using water against sand to fight Crocodile makes sense. No one questions it, right? He even goes on to use his own blood against the guy but Logia DF users are supposedly untouchable (Chapter 202 Page 15).

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Yet, here we see a weakness that is directly exploited. You could even count the other fights before haki is introduced as strategic or just straight-up mirror matchups where whoever is strongest wins. There wasn’t a need for haki to exist necessarily, but it isn’t a bad thing that it does exist. It adds variety and a new flavor to the recipe that is fighting in One Piece.
Secondly, people would get fatigued. I don’t think One Piece would end up being like a certain other video game franchise where elements have direct counters over each other. But I can completely see why people are afraid of that repetitiveness. Oda has introduced new mechanics every now and then; Haki is just another game-changer. Take a look at how Wyper beat Enel back in Skypiea (Chapter 275 Page 13), did that involve haki?

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I guess if you want to be really general, we can agree that Enel was using Observation Haki/Mantra during the whole arc. But really, the point and focus should be on Wyper. Haki was already introduced back in Jaya (Chapter 234 Page 17). Oda didn’t have to hold back here. And sure, we can say that he was still figuring it all out but the guy just reinforced that Logia DF users, while believed to be untouchable (without the need of Armament Haki), are in fact not untouchable. Reject Dials are a perfect example of this.

Other fights bring this to light as well: Kyros VS Diamante (Kyros didn’t have haki, which was way more established post-timeskip and he still beat Diamante; Chapter 776 Pages 18 - 19), Luffy VS Enel (Luffy was able to beat Enel because his fist was in front of the Shandorian Golden Belfry Bell, he just straight-up countered the guy lmao; Chapter 298 Pages 16 - 17), Apoo VS Kizaru (This one is a hilarious one to bring up: Apoo uses soundwaves to attack Kizaru - Chapter 509 Page 19), Luffy VS Magellan (Without haki, Luffy needed the help of Mr. 3 to actually be capable of even fighting against the poison monster; Chapter 546 Page 4), etc. There are more examples but these make it clear, haki is not the end-all be-all of One Piece.

Thirdly, haki has made fighting much more interesting. A really cool fight I like bringing up about this is Law and Smoker VS Vergo (Chapters 683 Page 14 - Chapter 690 Pages 16 - 17). Vergo was a guy who could use both haki and rokushiki. The man literally goes fullbody, balls-to-the-wall, Armament Haki. He used Soru/Sky Walk to prevent Law from retrieving his heart. You got Smoker coming in with his Armament Haki forcing Vergo to use his. The Devil Fruits are still in play here, it’s just haki adding some more flow to the river, if you will. This is even funnier when you consider the fact that Vergo himself called out Smoker for overuse of his DF because he believed it would be pointless to do so since Vergo had the stronger haki (Chapter 690 Pages 8 - 9). I don’t see anyone talking about this and I don’t know why LOL.

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Vergo literally calls out Smoker for having weaker haki and is acting as if it was the end-all be-all; Only to literally be proven wrong when it’s revealed that Smoker was using his DF the whole time to get Law’s heart back. Then Law beats him because his Armament Haki is stronger than Vergo’s. Does no one realize how that kind of completely makes the negatives of haki null? Plus, we get this sweet ass page.

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Lastly, my main point. Why should it matter? I mean, realistically, you’ve been reading One Piece for 1000 chapters and don’t trust Oda enough to keep writing the story in a fun and unique way? Come on now. Rokushiki, Seastone, Dials, Haki, Devil Fruits, we have so much shit. It’s just awesome. I should bring up that I do not like how Conqueror’s Haki Coating/CoCting was established. That is a good example of a form of haki that I really think could’ve been done way better. Especially because we only find out about it after there was already a previously established advanced form of Armament Haki from Hyogoro (Chapter 939 Page 15). Plus, Luffy literally learns and adapts to use only for it to be completely overshadowed by CoCting but that’s the biggest one for me. It’s still cool as fuck to be honest.

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Conclusion

Haki is just another tool in the toolbox for Oda to play with it. You are completely free to like or dislike it, but it’s a positive for sure. I mean, I wasn’t crazy about CoCting when it was first introduced but I mean, let’s be real. You were all hyped as fuck in Chapter 1010 when Luffy started beating Kaido’s ass from like a solid 3 inches away. It was cool and added some variety, that’s all haki needs to be.

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Alright, that's it

thin marlin
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Ping the debate moderator role

terse vector
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yeah

rare lantern
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<@&884917716333506621> Hello, please pin me NamiPray

terse vector
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let's first reply to fed's message before reading that

chrome mist
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I got told to ping, sorry for the double one SanjiYesHoney

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I should bring up that I do not like how Conqueror’s Haki Coating/CoCting was established. That is a good example of a form of haki that I really think could’ve been done way better. Especially because we only find out about it after there was already a previously established advanced form of Armament Haki from Hyogoro
What Hyogoro was talking about was also about applying CoC but due to the weird names in Wano, Luffy understood it later

rare lantern
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Bean posted in the middle of mine waaGONE

chrome mist
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Also I don't think vergo had rokushiki SanjiSmoke

rare lantern
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He did

terse vector
thin marlin
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Vic, it's the application of Haki flow in principle, not just Armament, but it applies to even Conquerors. It's pretty clear in the ways we see how it's only the application of Haki flow and internal destruction Hyo mentions and now the exclusivity of it to just Armament

rare lantern
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Oh no, I get that

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I just think the Chapter 1010 reveal is uh... a little weird

chrome mist
rare lantern
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Yeah Chapter 683 Page 15, Vergo uses Soru/Sky Walk

unknown.png
terse vector
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yeah vergo is adept in rokushiki

rare lantern
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I'm pretty sure that's what that diamond looking thing is

thin marlin
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That's him bounding to Law at high speed yes

clear zenith
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I believe haki is a positive
Haki breaks the fundamental shounen esque way of their power will keep on growing naturally as i fight without any hard work whilst with haki you need to train it take for example zoro and sanji they have no devil fruit and they can still stand up against zoans like king and queen due to them strengthening their haki, we see zoros growth as a swordsman from learning techniques with 3 swords and training each episode with things like weights or meditation which improves haki and at the current point he is able to create a wound to king who has a zoan devil fruit and with sanji its really unique and amazing seeing his smashing down opponents with his legs and this expands the limits of characters instead of just overpowered characters that put in no hard work and from haki we also have strategy and tactics instead of just one shotting everyone with a technique like bankai in bleach and for our main boy luffy, subjectively he has one of the most boring generic powers, a rubber man, and it has many limitations compared to other devil fruits like whitebeards devil fruit, however luffy also puts in hard work like the rest of the crew for 3d2y and we see episodes of every character training and strengthening themselves and their haki until they are able to make use of their powers with haki and break their limits to fight even bigger foes like the yonko such as big mom and kaido and a recent example of this being displayed is luffy v kaido, think about it a rubber man vs a dragon, it would clearly be a one sided fight however with haki it changes the game. Also conquerers haki is a positive imo is that it sets the upcoming friends or foes in place for the future such as the yonko, marines, samurai and many others and it will show the difficulty of overcoming that challenge. <@&884917716333506621>

rare lantern
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Yeah looks like it

unknown.png
chrome mist
terse vector
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lemme finish reading Vic's post fed

terse vector
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well I just cope on that prospect then.

terse vector
chrome mist
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Author comment

terse vector
#

oh

chrome mist
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back in like around 975

terse vector
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ah

chrome mist
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The end section of Whole Cake island and the last 5ish chapters of alabasta are the closest it can get to a sea battle