#debate-arena

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

scarlet mirage
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First

rare lantern
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FUCK

native flame
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E

exotic owl
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vbb

clear zenith
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third

queen vector
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arena KizaruPog 2 mins slow mode MomoNotLikeThis
it's faster to just edit my messages

spring heron
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first

ornate kernel
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wait wtf is this @spring heron make me

signal hound
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Aloha

minor void
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That's no fair...

spring heron
wicked spoke
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h

scarlet mirage
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Cranking down the slowmode to 10 seconds. If you don't know what's going on here, check in #events

light steppe
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second

modest basalt
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lineage doesnt take away from feats because the characters still worked hard as hell to get where they are. both sanji and zoro didnt just magically become yonko commander level by existing

rotund sentinel
clear zenith
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SANJI>KATAKURI

minor void
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Anyways, specifically for Zoro, I prefer him being just a random guy.

modest basalt
clear zenith
scarlet mirage
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& bear with me since this is our first time doing it, things aren't gonna be super clean at first

modest basalt
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any debates gonna be a shitshow with this community, youre good fats

queen vector
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I don't think it takes away anything, it's more of a personal preference

dusk adder
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lineage inherently does not take away from a character's accomplishments. if lineage is the reason they can accomplish great things, then yes, that's bad. but if it's a case like luffy, where being dragon's son isn't the reason for his strength and accomplishments, then that's good

clear zenith
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yalll GO D USSOP solos every verse any one denying this?

pliant sparrow
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Whoah a new channel

signal hound
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Jesus the slow mode

queen vector
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like I'd prefer if zoro was just a rando

modest basalt
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why

dusk adder
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yeah why

spice igloo
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^

wicked spoke
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I think that it doesn't take away from the feats but extra things that the parents did could take away from it (like if it's revealed that sanji is actually a superhuman I would feel like it would just take away from his entire thing of being normal i a weird family)

queen vector
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because it would make it more interesting to me, that's why

modest basalt
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?? personally i think its badass for zoro to have connections. it opens a lot of endgame opportunities

dusk adder
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if it doesn't define him, then i don't see the problem

queen vector
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it doesn't take away anything if he's the prince of wano or shit but I'd like it more if he's just a rando

terse vector
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Who wut is this channel for

queen vector
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cuz there is no problem

worn pelican
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It doesnt bother me too much, the feats they have accomplished themselves. At this current point in one piece, say, Luffy being Garp's grandson doesnt bother me at all because he has trained all his life to get as strong as he did, it wasnt like he was gifted due to his lineage. Meanwhile, if there is actually Lunarian blood on Sanji which is the cause of him combusting his leg into flames and not his innovation, I'll be a little disappointed

native flame
modest basalt
hollow pier
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Nobody in OP community thought less of Luffys achievements because he was related to Garp or Dragon or because he was a D. So I don't think lineage takes away.

lofty anchor
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What Zombie said earlier, who Zoro is doesn't really matter, luffy being dragons son doesnt mean that thats the sole reason why he is who he is

Zoro having that lineage doesnt make Zoro any different from who he is now, its the same situation that went on with Sanji

timber fern
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lineage may be important, but ultimately its the character that does the actions. i think the best example of this in universe would be sanji, despite being a vinsmoke, he worked hard, has his own dreams and passions, and even though he might have gotten some of his talents from his heritage, it still doesnt eclipse the fact that he has already surpassed just his bloodline

terse vector
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Oh. Nice thing this channel

signal hound
timber fern
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if anything, blood runs thicker than water

misty frost
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Zoro being a rando was pretty much stripped from him at the start, he was raised in a village founded by shimotsukis, and was trained by a shimotsuki.

timber fern
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(blood lost in wars is stronger than the water of the womb)

acoustic cipher
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I'm gonna kinda play devil's advocate here and answer "yes".

Now to be clear: I don't think lineage negates character accomplishments or anything close to that. Two children of the same character could still vary greatly in strength depending on their own willpower and such. But if lineage is presented as benefiting a character in some way, then it will technically take away some of the character's accomplishment since there was an outside source involved. It will always be more impressive if there's no such factor at play.

modest basalt
queen vector
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trained by someone important isn't the same as lineage

lofty anchor
modest basalt
queen vector
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zoro

modest basalt
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ohhhh ok

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and yeah, i feel like zoro's past was always left a little vague on purpose. there were hints to his lineage all along

timber fern
frail pasture
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I think lineage doesn't detract from someone's accomplishments in One Piece but it definitely helps

light steppe
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Zoro being a "rando" is not something that has a huge emphasis in the story. Also tons of students are trained by that shimotsuki guy and none of them seem to have even been close to the power of even east blue zoro

modest basalt
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zoro being a shimotsuki or at least related in someway is a huge W

misty frost
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I think it does take away from the whole zoro being a rando thing, being so close to these important people all his life already puts him above alot of other people

timber fern
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does it even matter?

modest basalt
lofty anchor
modest basalt
timber fern
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zoro has three swords, thats two more than anyone else

terse vector
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Lineage only helps in Haoshuku haki imo, like just because sanji could create fire due to being Lunarian doesn't discard his training or

modest basalt
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zoro has said many times that having three swords is not the same as the three sword style

timber fern
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except hachi, but he doesnt count

modest basalt
queen vector
fleet garden
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Oh okay what is this channel @_@

queen vector
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sanji doesn't create fire because he's a lunarian lol

long tartan
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imo it just makes zoro look cooler

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he descends from a badass swordsman

modest basalt
modest basalt
long tartan
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yeah

timid phoenix
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There are enough examples of great characters with no great lineage we know of to say that lineage doesn't factor much into characters' accomplishments (e.g. Big Mom, Sabo, Doffy, Jimbe, WB etc.), plus all the characters where their lineage isn't mentioned at all

fleet garden
queen vector
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doffy no great lineage?

modest basalt
modest basalt
queen vector
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bruh

wicked spoke
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now, I'm hyped but thinking about it, one of the reasons I liked one piece at first was it's charm of a couple of random guys making a crew and

native flame
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Zoros family reveal is most likely to hype him up and fill the gaps on "where exactly did he come from?" But not exactly to explain "why he is so strong". His strength is his own

fleet garden
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Lineage doesn't take away from a character's accomplishments. I think lineage will if the person chooses to follow in their family member's footsteps, but that's still their choice. Only a character can be given credit for their accomplishments imo

terse vector
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What my point is Usian Bolt's son, even if he is named Thunder, isn't as fast as him. Lineage only accounts for Haoshuku haki in OP verse, not other stuff

modest basalt
fleet garden
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Doflamingo kinda proves that

timid phoenix
modest basalt
chrome mist
native flame
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Being a celestial dragon's decendant is really a minus imo, that bunch is shady af

terse vector
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Birth potential fed

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And Lineage comes there

modest basalt
native flame
terse vector
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As rayleigh himself said, you cannot unlock Conquerors haki by training

timber fern
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anyways, imma go to sleep

grizzled rover
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theres a solid 50/50 chance the celestial dragons are inbred

timber fern
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night yall, tell me what the general consensus is when i wake up

scarlet mirage
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This'll be going on for a few days

modest basalt
timber fern
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kk

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ill come back later then

terse vector
native flame
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.marrying each other's family

modest basalt
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conq isnt even lineage tho

river ridge
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dis place new?

modest basalt
young geyser
chrome mist
native flame
grizzled rover
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honestly i dont remember seeing a female celestial dragon

errant tartan
grizzled rover
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they might just impregnate thier slaves

scarlet mirage
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look

native flame
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Yo

scarlet mirage
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this channel is about the specified topic, please just talk about that

grizzled rover
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sorry

scarlet mirage
faint silo
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No, lineage takes nothing away. Debate done.

desert wyvern
errant tartan
river ridge
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all i wanna say is the same people who dont want zoro vs mihawk because mihawk trained him better not be messing with this lineage stuff then SanjiSmoke

sour pulsar
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I generally dislike the concept of destiny and lineage because seeing a character grow and achieve insane things only for it to be because of their dad or what they're destined by fate to be kind of tosses aside the whole "against the odds" thing

terse vector
sour pulsar
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in anime specifically i generally see fate as a red flag because its normally used as an explanation for the MCs achievments

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of course some series pull off fate amazingly and it has nothing to do with that

faint silo
desert wyvern
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Then follow the prompt please, "Why or why not" is a requirement

terse vector
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Like my point earlier, if some ability isn't dependent on birth potential, it doesn't matter on the lineage. Thunder Bolt isn't.as fast.as Usian bolt. He might not even be if he trains

river ridge
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The lineage shit just drives the fate shit home even further. It also makes zoros journey to wano and then laught tale more special ig. It doesn't take away from anything but I also don't feel it was something his character needed. As of right now I don't think I really even care all that much. I doubt there's gonna be anything emotional to come from it

chrome mist
clear field
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I dont think zoro's lineage will affect him in anyways he is the frick everything I amma do my own thing guy

But if it is reincarnation and stuff that would be bad

native flame
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I hate the idea of reincarnation

rain sorrel
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It's definitely more realistic because odas always been pretty realistic about why a character can get that strong

terse vector
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Reincarnation doesn't mean shit if the life.of the two are different, if their experiences are different

clear field
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He prolly got the interests in being a swordsman because of his lineage but it should end there

rain sorrel
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Zoro becoming the world's greatest swordsman without being trained by the best swordsmen in the world would be a stretch

terse vector
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^^^

river ridge
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Imo zoro was never an underdog and hes also always worked hard. Him bowing to mihawk is still a great moment. Him receiving shusui is even more meaningful and makes me wonder if ryuma knew he was a descendent of his as well. Shusui found its way home to wano just as zoro did

rain sorrel
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It's not required but it does show that oda really cares about making things make sense yk

river ridge
rain sorrel
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Not necessarily

river ridge
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it wasnt really a stretch imo, zoros always been talented and dedicated

clear field
rain sorrel
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Remember I said it's not exactly required

native flame
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Reincarnation is kinda like saying the characters and their accomplishments come from the fact that they were great in their previous life and hence were "meant" to do this, not that they did whatever they did because of who they are in this life

terse vector
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It doesn't have to be. It has to be for zoro if he is to beat mihawk before his prime

river agate
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Does lineage take away from character accomplishments?
While I've discussed this topic a bit a few weeks ago, I think that the importance behind the lineage thing has to do with the story itself, which will relate directly with the VC itself ofc. As for the characters' accomplishments, Luffy being Joyboy, Zoro being Shimotsuki, and etc, I'm leaning towards that both Luffy and Zoro struggled their way to the top. So the lineage thing doesnt take that away imo. (I'm thinking about comparing these fictional characters to irl people/ourselves but I wont and shouldnt i guess..)
Maybe it'll take people's complaints away if there's some failed lineage from each descendents, like there's a failed Ryuma (maybe could count Ushimaru but idk), and failed Joyboy (cant be Garp and Dragon but idk).

river ridge
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It just makes me wonder if we're gonna get some lineage shit for nami as well now since all but 1 of the east blue 5 have stuff going on with it

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Are we gonna find out who robins dad is? More about her mom?

river agate
river agate
errant tundra
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to be honest, i hope one piece don't add the reincarnation shit, it would just make the guys effort be useless, i think it's better if they stay with the "will" thing and yes that's it

river agate
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not the exact reincarnation, but something like that

terse vector
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Like in terms of the reincarnation thinf as it was mentioned earlier, if the two had vastly different experience, just being a reincarnate shouldn't affect it at all. It's their experience what shaped them

lone pewter
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There's zero hints that he'll use the reincarnation card, fortunately

marble patio
terse vector
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Eh. Doesn't this be other series stuff

clear field
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That is lineage

terse vector
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Nah jugol is just putting an end to the unnecessary reincarnation discussion that someone started

clear field
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Oh

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I read zero as zoro

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Shit

native flame
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I believe in oda

errant tundra
clear field
terse vector
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Nah

errant tundra
signal helm
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I think my thoughts on lineage are that it's a situational basis based on the characters development up to the point. Someone who's been developed brilliantly throughout the story who we then discover an aspect of their lineage that may play into their personal development/strengths is, in my opinion, fine (think of Sanji as being royalty for example). But I think when a character has subpar development or is just kinda irrelevant/hasn't done anything special, and they're suddenly able to do something because they're of X or Y lineage, is a cheap cop out and should be avoided/detracts from their character.

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Sorry for the long post lol

errant tundra
terse vector
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Also... Yeah unless.its about Haoshuku haki, lineage doesn't undermine ones capabilities at all. Their experiences and choices and efforts have made them who they are, not their birth potential

clear field
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Well ultimately everything comes down to how the card is used

native flame
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Thankfully oda refrains from pulling this trope on our beloved characters

native flame
lone pewter
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Family lineage doesn't concern me as much as the overusage of birthright capacities like, well, CoC

terse vector
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^^

marble patio
signal helm
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See I love learning about lineage stuff though. From my view it adds a much needed cultural aspect to one piece that's been a bit overlooked at times

native flame
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I wish to see more characters from common birth using coc tbh

native flame
lone pewter
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if any Oda usually plays the lineage card to highlight that it doesn't really matter

signal helm
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Why does being from here make you good at this? Oh, your culture has a massive warrior caste you were born into that made you train to the bone from childhood? That's interesting to know

terse vector
clear field
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Just because in a show a samurai's son has decided to become a famous samurai is shown I am not going to drop that show lmao

hexed bane
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this debate actually transcends well beyond the OP world. My two cents: lineage doesn't detract from ones own accomplishments, but that being said having a certain lineage is a definite advantage. You can argue about Zoro being alone all this time, but you not only inherit external advantages (e.g. wealth or influence) from a stronger or more noble lineage but also behavioral traits (which we now know can be epigenetically inherited, i.e Zoro's positivity, hard-working dicipline, courage, or competitiveness) in addition to favorable genetic makeup (Zoro's durable body or strature). These things you have to work on to bring out their best potential, but if you follow behaviour epigenetics having ancestors with good habits is a big W going into life as you're battling less demons in your head to do it. Rather than detract, I feel coming from a disadvantaged background (physical characteristics or prevalent mental weakness) and achieving the same goals is a lot more formidable.

rain sorrel
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Every strawhat is as good as they are because of specific reasons relating to their childhood fr

signal helm
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Another thing I would dislike about usage of lineage in development: I'd really dislike it if two characters were matched up who seemed to have similar levels of power/accomplishments/etc, but one was stronger than the other because of lineage. That's arbitrary rubbish.

rain sorrel
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Franky was trained by Tom, Sanji was in baratie with zeff

terse vector
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Also as the topic is lineage, i guess prophecy discussion might eventually come out so would write something for that..

Like if I prophecized that person A would eat a dough nut tomorrow and the information hasn't reached person A and if the person A ends up eating the doughnut. It isn't because of the prophecy being right that the person ate the doughnut but it is because the person ate doughnut that the prophecy is right.

Lineage should also be viewed in proper sense

lethal falcon
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Is this channel anime only or manga?

rain sorrel
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Manga

terse vector
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Manga only. See the events for what this channel is for

native flame
lethal falcon
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Yea ik just wondering

terse vector
signal helm
# hexed bane this debate actually transcends well beyond the OP world. My two cents: lineage ...

Disadvantaged backgrounds, implying a character fills that bill, tend to inherently be stronger than affluent or wealthy raised individuals (not always the case, look at doffy) due to class based differences. I wouldn't be mad if character X beat character y because x spent their childhood farming and loading the docks whereas y was playing in his room and being served pastries by their servants

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Class of course plays HUGE into the op world with the existence of the celestials and Marines alone but yeah worth a mention

hexed bane
terse vector
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Hmm I couldn't understand what you meant there....

hexed bane
hexed bane
signal helm
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That's fair. It's a good point, was just elaborating on how I'd view it if it was utilised

terse vector
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Hmm. Would ping you in western series for a example...

chrome mist
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I don't really get bringing up genetic elements to say he could be more advantaged, because there is always gonna be circumstantial elements that are gonna play a part in how strong he is gonna become or that help him due to the mere fact they aren't isolated. Genetic elements especially is not something you can control, and you could always inherit traits that could help you even if your father is not ushimaru or whoever.

rain sorrel
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Yeah I mean I've been trying to think of an example of a character in op who's gotten really strong without a good reason behind it and im blanking

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Maybe big mom if you count that lol

carmine sundial
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Big Mom is one

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She’s just ridiculously strong naturally

lethal falcon
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White beard

carmine sundial
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Nah not WB

rain sorrel
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There's always been justifiable factors as far as I can see. I think of zoros case like all the others

hexed bane
boreal basin
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new channel?

lethal falcon
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Ye

chrome mist
frozen solstice
terse vector
scarlet mirage
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**I'm gonna pin this so that we get an idea of what a pinned argument would look like. **

So, does lineage take away from a character's achievements? Does it detract from the character? I'm going to play devil's advocate here and go against my own thoughts a bit and say that **yes, it does. **

So #1. I believe that lineage being introduced as a factor of a character can take away from the reader's perception of them and detract from their character.

  • I believe that a lot of readers are able to identify with or be inspired by certain characters in the series, especially our main cast, in that they are able to accomplish great feats with strong will and a lot of hard work. Zoro for example, according to our previous knowledge, was a no-name kid at an insignificant East Blue dojo.

  • When you introduce bloodline or destiny or lineage into this, I think it definitely has the potential to take that feeling away for readers. Things like destiny and lineage are out of the character's control, yet are attributed to them being such noteworthy and admirable people.

  • This is obviously also something that is out of the reader's control in real life, so instead of being able to empathize with Zoro for having worked so hard or to be inspired and think "I can do the same!", it's entirely fair for them to instead feel frustrated that he was born in the right family at the right place, at the right time. This I would consider detracting from a previously established character.

  • On a bit more of a meta level, I think considering the target demographic for Shonen series we can potentially bolster this argument. Considering that many people who read One Piece are at a delicate age where these ideas can mean quite a lot, I think it's fair to say that hard work being undermined by destiny detracts from the character.

#2. I also believe it takes away from the character's accomplishments in-universe, although it does not completely invalidate them.

It's not to say that he hasn't worked hard or that his accomplishments are only due to any potential lineage, but...

  • He was born with the bloodline of world-famous samurai
  • He was, on top of that, trained under that family's dojo
  • He also appears to have Conqueror's Haki

If Zoro were actually a random person, and the dojo he trained in was an unaffiliated dojo, and wasn't 1 in a million, would we honestly be able to say that he would be capable of the feats he is today? I think the answer is no.

Without those three factors being introduced, Zoro is purely a kid with strong will contending with the power players of the entire world. With them being introduced, he becomes a power player seemingly from birth. Destined and chosen by fate to be a major gear in the machine.

So in conclusion (TL;DR): Yes, Zoro or other characters being made the "chosen one" through their lineage or otherwise not only detracts from their established character, but also undermines their accomplishments in-world in relation to their character.

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Sorry for the flood... again, pinning this so we have a sort of idea of what goes up there

scarlet mirage
sour spire
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cool

carmine sundial
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With Zoro I just like to remind people that he’s never really been normal - he’s always been exceptional. A normal person simply does not want something that badly or push themselves to that degree for it. He’s always been like that and it’s not something you get from genetics. It’s just hunger. Now, the Ryuma and Ushimaru are fate at work bringing Zoro to Wano... and I understand people don’t like that but I don’t see these characters that want to rise to the top as no names. I don’t think you can be a no name and make that level of ambition achievable. And that would be the case whether Zoro was a Shimotsuki or just some gutter trash who found his way to a dojo.

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And I think that’s consistent with One Piece in general. Luffy and the people gunning for pirate king aren’t nobodies either

rain sorrel
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Shit normal people don't get on the pirate kings crew lol

modest basalt
carmine sundial
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To be the best you have to have something that normal people don’t have

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Such people are paragons of achievement

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Just like irl

flat oriole
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@scarlet mirage what are your actual thoughts since you said you were playing devil's advocate for the pinned message above

hexed bane
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for me persoally, Iam of 1) and ONLY for Zoro. As OP is very lineage-driven so to have a character completely independant of ties to it coming to become the best is something this character carries for me- overall in all anime actually Zoro was prime example for this. And he is still great with a samurai lineage because of course all his hard work and mental fortitude, but he would be a lot better to me without it allthesame

scarlet mirage
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I can't type out my actual thoughts or it'd just be two big ass walls of text of me arguing against myself

rain sorrel
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Lmao

scarlet mirage
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generally though, I fall under what Archer is saying

flat oriole
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lul

scarlet mirage
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but I think it's a strong argument against that

flat oriole
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ye for sure

gleaming vigil
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is this a zoro topic?

lethal falcon
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Ye

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Read description

scarlet mirage
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Doesn't have to be specifically zoro, but it will end up being focused that way

flat oriole
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sureI likethe idea of zoro being a nobody and was able to claw his way to the top but honestly way to unrealistic to actually he able to do that

gleaming vigil
flat oriole
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in a world like op

rain sorrel
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I always appreciate odas attention to detail on what makes sense in the world and what doesn't, and when he gets to tie that in with the broader worldbuilding of the story too? AceJustRight

desert wyvern
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Even Kaido fits that bill

carmine sundial
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Honestly none of those people are nobodies

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They just don’t have important lineages

rain sorrel
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Big mom just was born with a mutation lol

carmine sundial
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Those people are the true elite

rain sorrel
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It's not like it was really out of nowhere, just a defect

carmine sundial
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Literally born for success

hexed bane
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well that would come down to how much of that raw hunger Zoro had as a child was all his drive and not something even partially inherited behaviour from his supposed samarai lineage

daring elbow
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I just think introducing zoro to be apart of this bloodline just removed a hype factor from from something he earned to something he got even though we've seen his drive to be the best without a family name to carry him forward

carmine sundial
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Except arguably Blackbeard but he’s up in the air right now

desert wyvern
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Whitebeard was a literal nobody, though. Orphan, built himself up from nothing. Kaido as well, to our knowledge

rain sorrel
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Kaido was still an apprentice on rocks' ship too don't forget. I wouldn't say he was gifted for no reason

carmine sundial
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He built himself up but he was born to be a conquerer

hexed bane
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yeaa thats true of Whitbeard- or well we don't really know rather

carmine sundial
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He is one of those one in a million people

rain sorrel
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If we say that about kaido we have to say the same thing about shanks potentially

daring elbow
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the only think zoro got from the samurai heritage is the way of swordsmanship everything else was all him

hexed bane
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probably got conquerors from there

clear field
hexed bane
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because thats likely see Yamato for instance

carmine sundial
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I mean building yourself up is something you have to do in general

frozen solstice
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After the Zoro heritage reveal I've always wondered if his sensei Koushirou knew of his heritage aswell. He himself is part of the Shimotsuki clan being the son of Shimotsuki Kozaburo. And if he did knew about Zoro's heritage did it play a factor to Koushirou treatment to Zoro and towards Kuina aswell and to if at all it was a additional factor for him to give him Wado ichimonji.

carmine sundial
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For some it just comes more naturally and successfully than others

daring elbow
clear field
carmine sundial
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Yeah but they’re losers

clear field
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True

hexed bane
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No i mean Yamato has conquerors and awakened it more easily because she is Kaidous child

desert wyvern
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Sure, but conqueror's as a birth rite is also something we haven't had defined as tied to lineage specifically. That's the difference in this instance, the people we've listed haven't had a confirmed one up based on lineage. Big Mom, for example, we actually know her parents and they seem to be nothing special

rain sorrel
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It's always a little bit of both. These characters have gotten by partly from circumstance and partly from their own willpower. It's too simple to only say one or the other fr

desert wyvern
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Guys, try to keep more substantive discussion toward the topic too pls

clear field
hexed bane
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BM is an anomaly

daring elbow
carmine sundial
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Yeah I don’t think lineage matters as much. It’s just I wouldn’t call them nobodies because they are people born with the qualities to succeed.

errant tundra
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i mean, if the lineage is very important, some theories like reyliegh being mihalks father would make sense

carmine sundial
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Qualities of kings

desert wyvern
carmine sundial
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I addressed that as well

hexed bane
clear field
carmine sundial
#

Lineage doesn’t take away because the ones who reach the summit of achievement in this world are already special

#

Except maybe Teach...

clear field
#

Like roger

daring elbow
#

sanji is the best example

hollow wing
#

Lineage doesn’t effect whether a character achieves or not unless it’s directly implied or stated is my take

carmine sundial
#

Sanji just needs to embrace his inner Power Ranger Nazi

daring elbow
#

XD

molten garnet
#

is this a new channel

flat oriole
molten garnet
#

ah ok

hexed bane
desert wyvern
rain sorrel
#

Plus here's the interesting thing that we haven't pointed out; being the son of a strong swordsman doesn't automatically mean you'll become a strong swordsman. If odas sticking to what makes sense here, Zoro couldve ditched the family lineage and taken up shoemaking and he'd never be good at swordsmanship. It's the training by some of the strongest swordsmen ever that make him that great

carmine sundial
#

Destiny is involved too yeah

carmine sundial
rain sorrel
#

I'd attribute Zoro's skill more to koushiro than ushimitsu honestly

carmine sundial
#

Zoro is in the running to be one of the best because he wants it more than anyone else and has the drive to train and fight harder than anyone else until he wins. Not because he’s privileged by his family tree.

hexed bane
#

i think more people need awareness of inheritance of behavioral epigenetics. The understanding that your behavioral habits can be passed onto your offspring and then they may view this debate slightly different

desert wyvern
#

^ Ushimaru's lineage doesn't seem to lend itself to this goal in general

flat oriole
#

ye it's not like someone in his family set a path for zoro to follow to reach the top

desert wyvern
#

Was he known as a particularly powerful or prodigious samurai?

flat oriole
#

zoro's done it all himself

hollow wing
#

In One Piece nurture and upbringing affects you much more than your nature or your lineage

hexed bane
#

well even if he was- Wano is closed so noone really made a name for themselves outside it than Oden really

carmine sundial
#

Eh I’d say it’s a bit of both

daring elbow
#

but i think it doesn't apply to zoro as much cause he didn't know about his lineage,like luffy who had no clue who his father and grandfather was in the grand scheme of things

hollow wing
#

I can’t think of any significant character who you can say their actions and accomplishments are directly because of lineage

carmine sundial
#

Like you’re either born a conquerer or you’re not

hollow wing
#

But I’m open to hearing the other side

rain sorrel
#

It's both and depending on the person, like real life

hexed bane
daring elbow
hexed bane
#

its a subtle difference but doing it at godlike difficulty is a lot more impressive

desert wyvern
terse vector
#

Is conqueror strictly a birth privileges thing? Couldn't an experience trigger it or be the reason for it? I have forgotten the details of conquerors haki I guess

hollow wing
#

Helmeppo’s current state is due to how he was raised, nurture, not nature of being Morgan’s son

flat oriole
desert wyvern
#

Yep, Motobaro

hexed bane
carmine sundial
#

You don’t become a conquerer

hollow wing
frozen solstice
carmine sundial
#

You’re born with the qualities of a king or you’re not

terse vector
#

Hmm

carmine sundial
#

And those people are the true elite

hollow wing
#

Well that’s destiny and RNG not necessarily family lineage Archer

carmine sundial
#

It’s tangentially related

daring elbow
#

as for the destiny chip part of it,yes i do think it takes away from their character a bit as their actions will bring this specific result,granted the character decides how they get to their destiny makes them great

flat oriole
hexed bane
# desert wyvern Yep, Motobaro

yepp but my point is Luffy unlocked it more easily becuase it always lay dormant in him- he was born with its latent potential waiting to come out. All his experiences made that bull moment possible even under no great duress

hollow wing
#

We don’t fully get how it relates, we only have Garp’s offhand comment

carmine sundial
rain sorrel
#

I've just never thought of CoC as a lineage thing. I think family members are usually bound to all have CoC if one does because oda loves strong families, but even still that usually doesn't happen

#

It's a matter of purely personality for me

hexed bane
signal helm
#

I think usage of lineage in a characters development can be utilised well if a cultural aspect is focused on. Really, whats important to highlight here is the term "cultural", because that's all encompassing for the characters lineage. Culture can refer to so many things that play into how a character develops before we even meet them:

Class/Caste: More wealthy characters can possibly be trained in the finer tuned aspects of whatever it is they do. Lets take Zoro, for example. Was the dojo Koushirou taught at accessible only to members of a higher caste/class/the wealthy? If not, would that meant that Zoro could have become a better swordsman at a younger age had he attended the "better" dojo?

Or, was that a dojo meant for the lower/middle class/caste/more impoverished students who couldn't afford the higher end dojo (assuming one existed) who just happened to be lucky with a sensei who was still good in his craft? This second point brings up a slew of other possibilities; does Koushirou teach his dojo for the lower class because he himself is as such and he wants to expand the talents of children in a similar lifestyle that he lived? And moving back to the lower class argument of Zoro, does this mean that his physical, non craft related training was regular labour, such as farming, dockwork, etc? IF we explored Zoro's lineage from a cultural aspect, we could answer both of these to some extent, which I think makes his character more appealing and more deep.

There's also the subject of whether or not that specific culture has a strong warrior caste (not necessarily Zoro, in this case). If they do, it would suffice to reason that they are as strong as they are, and detailing the suffering of the character at a young age who has to undergo military training because their culture demands it of them is a VERY well woven backstory directly related to their lineage that does the furthest thing from detract from a characters story, it deepens it.

#

sorry for long message lol

hexed bane
#

strong personality commonly often breeds strong personality offspring

rain sorrel
#

Potentially yeah

#

It's more likely than not

hollow wing
#

Depends on if you believe personality is genetic or a combination of choices a child makes

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Sabo for instance

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Slowly choosing over time to disagree w family

#

Developed a personality drastically different from Shelly

hexed bane
#

Its really a blend, but more emphasis on choices espeically the later one progresses in life. Still its easier to tend to certain choices depending on your epigenetic makeup too

hollow wing
#

Shelly or Stelly I forget

#

His brother

rain sorrel
#

Stelly yeah

hollow wing
#

Then you have the CDs in which the majority of them grow up w similar viewpoints and personalities, and then you get outliers like the Donquixote who choose differently

hexed bane
#

yepp Sabo was both against his parents nature and nurture

#

very interesting case

hollow wing
#

Or nature doesn’t affect personality, nurture has more of an impact. But you can choose to go against nurture

#

Since free will is a thing

#

By nature here I mean like

#

Your family tree, your lineage

hexed bane
#

ahh your personality especially when you're young is impacted by nature did you know

rain sorrel
#

It's all a blend but there's always weird things because human beings aren't perfect equations

fading gull
#

then you have like

hollow wing
fading gull
#

donquixote mjosgard becoming a good person by his own free will, albeit after a life changing event

hollow wing
#

^

#

I think there are arguments that can be made for nature and lineage having effect but it pales in comparison to ones nurture AND what they do about their nurture with their free will

rain sorrel
#

Your personality is effected by both

hollow wing
#

The latter is much more significant in developing ones personality and eventually, achievements

rain sorrel
#

ITS ALL BOTH WERE LIVING IN A COFFEE BLEND

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Sorry

hexed bane
#

well just speaking of One Piece and on the topic of Zoro- One Piece has a lot of lineage connected baddies- so Zoro coming from nothing is simply more hype. Yes it will take away, him having a samarai lineage- he will still be awesome and retain his feats but he will be slightly less inspirational as the lienage thing is heavily played out already in the series

rain sorrel
#

Yeah well that's the big discussion here honestly

#

Do you go with what's more realistic or what feels good to our primate brains more

#

Both are pretty valid

hexed bane
#

I think Zoro is exceptional- and it is realistic that 1/1 000 000 normals can accomplish his level of dicipline and resolve.

daring elbow
#

i feel like those who awaken their CoC all have RAISE TO THE OCCASION for the case for kaido and big mom's children, being the kids of the emperors means you have more targets on your back than most so they go through trial of fire of sorts.

katakuri rose to the occasion because he wanted to protect his family thus he gain conquerors and his presence of being the perfect man gave his siblings that sense of ease which made them not have to raise to the occasion and awaken conquerors if those who have the potential for it.

yamato lived her life admiring someone great and wanted to be just like them to her father's rage and when kaido purposefully made yamato's life harder she had to fight back and she too had to raise to the occasion to become a conqueror herself.

i believe family bonds do contribute to conquerors however if they had to be put in a sitiuation where they had to be one through their will than a family name so its circumstance but being related to a conqueror can either mold you into one or shape you to not be one.

hollow wing
#

Yeah on paper and at first glance being a no-name and doing well is better than having a good lineage and doing well

hexed bane
#

playing a numbers game of odds- he becomes more realistic suddenly. Anomalies exist. If its not his lineage he's an anomaly

hollow wing
#

Like

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Every Charlotte has dormant CoC but only Katakuri rose up to unlock it

#

Something like that

#

Idk if I like the idea but

hexed bane
hollow wing
#

It would be very interesting

rain sorrel
#

I just feel like you're simplifying it too much

daring elbow
hexed bane
#

but you do see how much L is like Roger behaviorally or Garp even? And they come down the same stem

frozen solstice
#

Although it's left to question I would like to see Weevil get coc in some way shape or form by making his own choice and standing against his mom

hollow wing
#

Yeah we see Yamato unlocking CoC during her defiance of Kaido

#

Accidental bursts of CoC seem to be during acts of defiance

#

Defying death

hexed bane
#

so to get a clear picture of the field here- what are your opinions? Does it take away or not?

rain sorrel
#

Usopp getting coc while killing blackbeard ZoroNut

hollow wing
hexed bane
#

no but not what weighs more importance- that matter is simply if it takes away from Zoro

frozen solstice
white cradle
#

gonna drop my 2 cents on the subject real quick, bloodline does seem to be tied to fate in one piece, as mainly highlighted by the Will of D. people, and fate does detract from character because fate implies an universal force pushing things in this direction

lethal geyser
#

can we say manga spoilers here

hexed bane
#

for me its hard to say take away- but i think i want to say it adds to the character if he comes from nothing genetic wise. If Zoro comes from nothing it will only bolster his cred more

desert wyvern
#

Yes, this is a manga channel

hollow wing
#

As in

frozen solstice
hollow wing
#

Luffy’s choices and his actions thus far weren’t truly his decision

rain sorrel
#

Damn we're getting into hard philosophy now huh?

hexed bane
#

this boils down into the more complicated argument of will of D and inherited will and predestination/predetermination vs complete freedom of choice

hollow wing
#

Prophecy exists in One Piece

#

Luffy will destroy FMI, that’s not a choice for him

But other things are

hexed bane
#

i feel its possible to not do this black and white

carmine sundial
#

It is a choice

white cradle
hexed bane
#

you can have predestination and free will

carmine sundial
#

It’s just one he is determined to make

rain sorrel
#

The free will talk is honestly more a matter of opinion. None of us have free will if you wanna look at it that way

hexed bane
#

your fate may be decided but your options or choices are still yours

#

if it makes sense

rain sorrel
#

Kinda just a nebulous argument

carmine sundial
#

I think people have a much too constrictive view of predestination/free will in fiction

hexed bane
#

for instance you can decide to not go to sleep, but at the end you can only hold out so long- still you can achieve something in that but within a set limitation

carmine sundial
#

Like that

white cradle
rain sorrel
#

Even deciding not to sleep is an action based on some preset cogs turning in your mind fr

white cradle
#

at what time did the universal force of fate decided that you would sleep?

rain sorrel
#

But that's not really the discussion so I'll sit out

hexed bane
#

its just the ground rules set for the game of life. But perhaps since its ground rules not the best example for the influence of fate

white cradle
#

for example in one piece there's an specific timeframe set for when Kaido would be defeated and all of that

hexed bane
#

it will come to pass, Kaidou can't run from that fate -if he were to believe in it. He has the choice to do what he can but it will still come to pass

night bronze
#

Yo since when has this channel existed

desert wyvern
hexed bane
#

still I wanted a good example of free will and predetermination coinciding together

white cradle
#

i don't think that's a thing

chrome mist
# white cradle gonna drop my 2 cents on the subject real quick, bloodline does seem to be tied ...

Yes, but in OP that is taken a step further since fate shapes the person and the person has free will to decide, but it all converges into Luffy being Joy boy etc., so no matter how you look it would be unfair to say Zoro "fairly became swordsman" because that's just not true due to the centuries leading up to him becoming it, but he still has the will to become one which is what in the end makes him worth it and what matters

That's at least how I see it

rare lantern
#

ZoroWeary I want to collect my thoughts on this and put it in here but I'm still at work

night bronze
#

Lineage does not take away from someone’s accomplishments imo

white cradle
#

predetermination, as in events being set in stone beforehand is pretty much the opposite of someone having free will to decide and change things

chrome mist
hexed bane
night bronze
#

One of the major themes of one piece is that you are not who your ancestors are. Ace was only hunted for his lineage even though he hated Roger. Garp is a marine and yet Luffy decided to become a pirate. I think the person shapes their destiny and isnt predetermined by it

frozen solstice
#

I like that point euge it's true to the theme with one piece and would apply about this discussion.

hollow wing
#

Agreed

#

Choices matter more than lineage, even if lineage has an effect

river ridge
hexed bane
river ridge
#

the issue is guys

night bronze
#

Exactly. So even if Zoro is related to Ryuma/Shimosuki, i dont think that takes away from his character or his accomplishments at all. He still needed to put in the work himself to become a master swordsman, and it’s his own ambition to become the world’s strongest swordsman. His lineage has nothing to do with that

white cradle
#

destiny decided that Luffy would become king of the pirates

river ridge
#

we know its all predetermined by goda

night bronze
#

Well, the author of the story determined Luffy would be PK

river ridge
#

he just added an extra layer to the destiny stuff ig

chrome mist
night bronze
hexed bane
#

Oda is the destiny or predetermination in the OP world

#

haha he decides and Zoro is

white cradle
chrome mist
#

This is important to remember for that discussion imo

unknown.png
night bronze
#

I like this

hexed bane
#

but not an equal opportunity or power/influence to do so

white cradle
#

Bege is not an expert on concept of fate itself

#

i'm trying to remember which chapter is the thing that the mayor said

river ridge
#

always wanted something where luffys will resist against destiny itself and defines his own fate but that ship has long since sailed. Seems hes destined to go from one island to the next making friends and saving the day

chrome mist
river ridge
hexed bane
#

but we're being practical here right

chrome mist
#

Are we?

river ridge
#

LuffyTruthful what capone said is definitely true

hexed bane
#

haha..well we're not in #mangatheory right

white cradle
chrome mist
#

I think if you look at corazon for example, he wanted to both save Law and defeat doflamingo, and even if Law wasn't able to manage that, Luffy was there to defeat doffy. This is what I mean with small ripples, it's the will being passed down which is then shaping the future

night bronze
#

I like that point

white cradle
#

Law was fated to be saved by Corazon and meet Luffy

#

he's one of the pirates that would be involved in taking Kaido down "20 years in the future"

hexed bane
#

but imagine you're fated by lineage to have some major impact- and you slack and don't do anything..won't the fate just change onto someone else's shoulder. You weren't able to ignite/awaken and cultivate your potential so the will shifted towards another. Could it work like so?

#

because even in the case for Luffy..a lot was done to nurture that flame

river ridge
# white cradle

stuff like this I loved, id rather it be left ambiguous for the entire series but ig not

white cradle
chrome mist
white cradle
#

if you're not fated to do it, you're fated to do something else, so slacking off is your fate

hexed bane
white cradle
#

fate is universal predetermination and predestination, for everyone

hexed bane
#

I believe there is a small margin of space in your desperation in which you can alter your fate

white cradle
#

cause and effect is a thing, so for a set fate to work for someone, it has to be set for everyone

hexed bane
#

well theoretically if we are going there aha

barren orchid
#

I've never noticed this channel wtf

hexed bane
#

and its a small window available for anyone

ivory plover
#

Lineage needs to enhance a character, but can easily take away from it imo

chrome mist
#

Mateh, I think you are looking it as fate being an arbitrary thing, while we know from chapter 100 that that's not the case. The ebb of time isn't going to stop the inherited will of people or their dreams, they all go together

white cradle
chrome mist
#

at least how I interpret it

ivory plover
#

Like luffy’s lineage it enhances, him being dragon or Garp’s (grand) son, changes nothing

chrome mist
ivory plover
#

Luffy still worked very very hard to get where he is, and we see that immense effort

hexed bane
ivory plover
#

However if Sanji has got an augmentation ima be annoyed, however if he is part lunarian and waking it up I see no issue with it

white cradle
white cradle
chrome mist
#

Yes, and fate (the ebb and flow of ages) is chosen by one's dreams and one's inherited will, hence why they cannot be stopped

#

They are all connected

white cradle
#

that's not what the quote says, i don't think "The ebb and flow of the ages" refers to fate, rather it refers to the passage of time itself

river ridge
# chrome mist His dream and his fate can be the same thing tho if free will shapes fate

oda's free will shapes the fate of op but free will does not shape fate thats like the complete opposite of what fate is. Free will can shape the future sure. People in the world of op can think theyre free but we know theres something greater at work here guiding all of the decisions from shanks sacrifice for luffy to yamato finding odens logbook and meeting ace.

white cradle
#

time is always going forward, it cannot be stopped and cannot be turned back

hexed bane
#

time will flow forward regardless it cannot be stopped just like peoples dreams and hunger for freedom

white cradle
#

but fate isn't time

hexed bane
#

Dragon doesn't really comment on fate there

chrome mist
#

Yes, time not stopping or turning backward means it's predetermined, which is what I mean with fate

river ridge
#

i dont think thats what that means feddy

white cradle
#

^

hexed bane
#

i mean again time -not stopping is like ground rules of the world not really fate per say

river ridge
#

time not stopping means things are fated to continue to happen tho

#

so ig theres that at least.

hexed bane
#

haha well yes I suppose so

river ridge
#

but what is time my friends CrocoAshura

chrome mist
#

I think it's what's implying. Since you cannot turn time back, it means you cannot change the past and it's why it never can stop the wills of people etc.

hexed bane
#

time is something we all are deluded we have

#

haha on that note I gtg haha

chrome mist
#

This is another translation btw

unknown.png
river ridge
hexed bane
#

ahh I can't believe Dragon had the nerve to remark whats fine for Luffy..

white cradle
#

anyway, i already said my 2 cents on this subject

#

does the debate arena have any winners?

hollow wing
#

There’s gonna be a Stage Cast ab the topic and then a poll

#

To decide the winner

river ridge
river ridge
#

Dragon most likely gave luffy to garp so he could at least choose what he wants and not be branded a revolutionary

#

Gave his son a chance at not being the enemy of the wg, even if it meant garp forcing his will on his son LUL

chrome mist
#

I think this predetermined fate based on the weaving of people's wills is important for zoro and what shapes him to become the greatest swordsman. So in a meta point of view, you can argue that he didn't achieve it himself due to fate putting him in a position to become one, but within the narrative, his accomplishment is a showing of his strong will to become it, while also speaking to the destiny of the whole world (which we know is going to shape up Luffy becoming Pirate King and changing the whole world)

So yea tldr; in a meta view it could undermine him, but narratively it shows off really strong themes of fate being woven due to people's wills and imo adds a lot more weight to his dream

river ridge
#

Id say its both, he was put in the right place at the right time and worked hard to get where he was. Nothing was handed to him that he didnt earn, even enma SanjiSmoke

chrome mist
#

I agree I guess

frozen solstice
#

I'm gonna write up my own thoughts about this topic and send it through later and right now it's quite uhh BuggySweat

#

I do have conflicting thoughts about it

river ridge
#

btw the next debate topic should be, best hair.

modest sparrow
#

oh shit is this a new channel?

spring heron
modest sparrow
#

ah koo

fleet garden
#

I feel like this kind of thing could go either way. Zoro being a shimotsuki has nothing to do with his accomplishments though, neither does Sanji being a vinsmoke.

alpine saddle
#

"does X or Y even rely on the lineage", is really the question. my take has always been, simply, "lineage may account for how high you can go, but it doesn't account for you going there. you have to do it yourself."

#

so no, it does not take away from his accomplishments, nor would it take away from any other

fleet garden
#

If you choose your lineage I think that will effect your accomplishments and make things much more... Linear but I agree with you

west turtle
#

I only see lineage as any sort of detractor when it manifests as nepotism. Think way early Helmeppo. Zoro is a character who was not been handed any special privilege for his assumed bloodline. He has reached his position on his own merit.

It just makes sense that someone at the level of talent of Zoro has this kind of background. I wouldn't go so far as to say it justifies him being able to stand at the top of the world, but it sort of does. Talent can manifest out of a vacuum, though it was more likely that his ancestors would at least partially share that proclivity. So now having a tie to Ryuma, I think it something fun for the fan boys, and also adds to some in-universe consistency

fleet garden
#

Yeah, Doffy is a good example. His lineage was so crappy, but he went and became extremely strong

#

And being a celestial dragon doesn't really take away from his accomplishments, I think in spite of being a CD, the fact that he did what he did anyway is impressive

alpine saddle
#

linear, yes. but you still need to actually do. b/c of this, it can actually never be said to be the lineage that is the cause of an accomplishment, at least not directly. ...and since I'd put more for actually doing stuff yourself on just about anything, any accomplishment done period would not be detracted

fleet garden
#

So... Zoro's getting shusui back eh GarPepe

alpine saddle
#

what happens is that some people get more opportunities due to the lineage. but that doesn't mean they take advantage of it.

obtuse anchor
#

gonna drop some big text so brace yourseleves

fleet garden
alpine saddle
#

cool, now we can argue over Mip's inner thoughts for an hour

obtuse anchor
#

gonna be 2 msgs so gimme time so they can connect

fleet garden
#

Okay

obtuse anchor
#

I believe that the introduction of zoro’s lineage will only serve to detract away from his character at this point in the story.

The entirety of this piece is aimed at zoro's character and is not meant to generalize, so please keep that in mind when reading

Intro
The concept of lineage/bloodline is not bad in and of itself. A character can still be well written if this concept is declared as a major part of its identity and drivers at the appropriate time, but when it gets introduced to a well-defined and arguably flushed out character like zoro, it starts to become an issue.
Obviously, Zoro’s lineage is not going to completely nullify anything about this character, but it will start chipping away at several aspects of it to the point where it starts to become a noticeable issue that would alter our perception of him.

Examples
-An example of a character that benefits from its lineage/bloodline would be robin. The Ohara bloodline is an integral part of her character that was introduced relatively early in her arc (compared to zoro or luffy) we knew what we were getting into and formed a connection with her over that. It has been one of the main drivers for her and helped us understand her emotions, thoughts, and interactions with other characters.
-An example of a character that would not benefit from this, rather get damaged by it would be luffy. His lineage – while known – was never the main driver for him, or an integral part of his character. He does not care about who his father is at all, he never mentions that his grandparent is the hero of the marines, and his mother was never talked about. The lack of influence by bloodline becomes the integral part of his character instead, and we start loving luffy for that and who he is. His goals and motives are well defined and influenced only by what speaks to him. Matter of fact, he even goes against everything garp tries to instill in him no matter the efforts and methods. This goes to show even further, his independence of the bloodline.

Fate
Bloodline starts to go into the territory of fate and predetermined destinies. Such concepts are acceptable and can be highly beneficial as long they drive the world and characters behind the scenes to a certain extent, but when a character becomes the chosen one or descendant of X we start going into potentially muddy territories.
Examples of predetermined factors woven into the fabric of one piece that influence the story in a good way would be:
-Oden saying that pirates from outside wano will come in 20 years.
-The mermaid princess will be born in 10 years.
-The different paths that can be taken in paradise that still lead to the same
point.
-Characters choosing what yonko to join or defeat all leading to laugh tale and the one piece.
In these examples, there’s a predetermined aspect that forces the characters into certain paths at the end, but what brings them there is still their own character, experiences, and decisions.
However, when we go into something like lineage/bloodline, actions and achievements will inevitably start to be explained by that to a point where it starts chipping away at the character’s agency (in the case of luffy and zoro).
(part 1/2)

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Zoro
When it comes to zoro, It’s kind of too late to add this type of development at this point where his character is pretty well defined and perhaps even fully flushed out. So introducing his bloodline as a new factor would make us reconsider everything he has done so far, to the point where I think we would be looking at a very different character. We will start questioning every word he said, every action he took, and every decision he made along the journey. It will bring a new interpretation to his relationship with his crewmates as well. (Say that zoro had a backstory similar to robin where he lost his family. This will redefine his reasons to care about the straw hats and his independence. So, moments like his disapproval of usopp breaking the fabric of the family, and zoro protecting the straw hats from Kuma start to gain new interpretations that stray away from the essence of his character) opinions will obviously differ on whether this is a good change or not, but the point is that it goes against everything that has been established for zoro so far, and I am not a fan of such a development.

History
This has been said more than enough, but zoro was always a ronin (a masterless samurai / wanderer) he is introduced as a vicious man that does whatever he thinks is right no matter the consequences. Even his introduction in his flashback is that of a rouge ronin. A wandering swordsman of unknown origins approaches a Dōjō to challenge its master for the purpose of gaining fame, recognition, and pride as a swordsman. Zoro ends up losing to a disciple of that dojo and joins them seeking growth. From there, we see zoro work hard every single day, waking up before everyone and sleeping after them. Zoro’s drive, ambition, and agency were all established from his childhood, so if all of those events are chucked up to his bloodline/lineage and therefore fate, they will start to lose their impact on his character because it all starts to fit too well.

Fits too well
Zoro being a shimotsuki would explain – in a fatalistic way perhaps- how he managed to find to the Dōjō, why he was taken in, and given Wado Ichimonji; He was always a chosen one. This starts to chip away at his sense of agency, drive, and desire to be not just great, but the greatest.
Everything was put in place (by the shimotsuki, and fate) specifically for him to succeed. He was never going to fail, he was being watched over, everything was prepared for him, and he has the genes that allow him to take advantage of it.
And as we start moving forward to examine the big events in his life, this effect persists.

Feats
-Zoro defeated ryuma because he was capable of doing it, but now that he’s potentially a descendant of his, the argument/thought of “zoro was the only one that could defeat him (as a swordsman) because he’s from the same bloodline” starts to gain validity, and zoro starts to become a ryuma 2.0 in a way.
-Zoro damaged kaido because he’s the direct descendant of ryuma, the dragon slayer.
-His use of the will of the sword in alabasta to defeat Mr.1 is because he’s from a line of gifted swordsmen.

Conclusion
The introduction of zoro’s bloodline/lineage at this point in the story where his character has been flushed out would only take away from him. He has been established as a lone wolf with no past – and non to be discovered, only a bright future ahead that purely satisfies his desire. So, the addition of a new layer that goes against all of that would not be beneficial at all, it would only serve to throw away all the development and characterization that had brought him to this stage in the story and made us fall in love with him.

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PS
My main issue with such a development is that it will be a complete 180 from zoro's character as we know it. He is a ronin, a swordsman of unknown origins who doesnt speak of his past and even his name in some cases (like ushimaru for ex). So when zoro's entire family history becomes known AND we find out that he has trained at HIS family's dojo in their fighting style what's so ronin about him then? He would just become the embodiment of a shimotsuki.
zoro would go from an unknown rando making his way through life where all we know about him is what he lets us know, to the gifted sowrdsman from a prestigious bloodline who has followed in his family's footsteps.

COUNTER ARGUMENTS

Zoro is most likely going to dismiss his lineage, so it wont matter in story bc it wont be brought up much.

  • Zoro's opinion was never the problem, it's ours and other characters' opinions that matter. We have already seen the characters (like hyo and kawa in 1023) react to zoro's potential lineage and started to attribute his arrival in wano and returning shusui to fate, and it wont be limited to wano as ryuma is the infamous godly swordsman, so all it takes is one article from morgan for the news to start taking effect. The same effect will take over the readers if zoro is confirmed to be a shimotsuki, even if it's just part of the fandom, that portion is going to be significant enough to start affecting our perception of zoro.

Other characters have lineage/bloodline that doesnt take away much from them like momo and yamato

  • First of all, they got their lineage revealed as a major part of their characters relatively eaely on in their character arcs, unlike zoro.
    Second, we need to be careful when discussing genetics/bloodline. stuff like phenotypes will obviously come through, and that's how it should be. so yamato's strength would be partly attributed to kaido's physical strength that was passed down through DNA, but it's not the reason she is this strong today. that would the fact that she fought kaido numerous times over the span of about 20 years, while wearing seastone cuffs even. she has had more than enough proper training. and even if she hadnt defied kaido, he would still have trained her to become strong.
    as for kaido's comments "you are my kid", "you have my blood". those are just him saying "i own you". this is made clear by him telling yamato to die otherwise.
    Momo is another phenotype case like above, but tbf, he doesnt have abnormal amounts of muscle like oden did, he is quite average in that aspect.
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i remember thinking that i wont participate in this debate

alpine saddle
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yeah.

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there's not really anything I can say in response, since it's one of the 5-6 possibilities in here

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what I will say is that Oda hasn't really been one to make a "mistake" like dropping a character for a lineage like that before (ie using a trope, though he may not note it as one, in order to fix in place the path of X or Y person)

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he's noted that it is a possibility that it did affect the path, but in the actual speech of the characters, you can tell it's from them, not necessarily from the lineage

obtuse anchor
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i mean yea ofc, the character still has its own agency, the lineage is not going to wipe it away suddenly, but as i said, it's gonna be chipping away at it here and there which will culminate in a noticeable effect

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and just to be clear, im not saying "oda bad" or that he made a mistake. i just dont appretiate this type of development that much

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would have preferred for zoro to be the same as he always was, character development can be achieved in different (and arguably) better way

river ridge
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mip

alpine saddle
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I will provide a counterpoint to that, btw: you said that Luffy had his lineage revealed early. however, that lineage was revealed while it was shown that his grandfather had a very similar personality to him, as well as various comments from people about "fate". so we've already had a noticeable effect from a lineage before. the problem here is that, as you said, Zoro is fleshed out, and some people may be unhappy with the lineage as it is now. ...however, in conclusion, I do believe that Oda will be able to manage it in a way that satisfies the vast majority.

river ridge
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over achieving ass

fleet garden
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Interesting thoughts Mip. I can see how being revealed to be a shimotsuki will detract from his accomplishments going forward, but I don't think the accomplishments he has already achieved will lose their special "Zoro" individuality for me. I think Zoro's next feats will be constantly compared to ryuma, or maybe even ushimaru, but I think we as readers know how special he is already without any of that, so I can't see it effecting him TOO negatively

alpine saddle
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or perhaps they specifically won't be compared to Ryuma, b/c his feats may be (and already are) somewhat different

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there's no legend about Ryuma cutting a stone statue the size of a large town

signal helm
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MIP playing unfair field, I don't have nitro plus so I can't send political treatises

obtuse anchor
# alpine saddle I will provide a counterpoint to that, btw: you said that Luffy had his lineage ...

i did not use luffy as an example of a character that got influenced by their lineage, it was the opposite. the point i was making about the time frame of the introduction goes hand in hand with its influence. luffy's lineage has had little to no impact on his character, which is the opposite of robin despite both having a relatively well defined family line.

so if luffy's bloodline were to have a significant impact on his character rn, that will not be smth i like. and the same goes for zoro.

fleet garden
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That's why I think Zoro won't be effected though, Mip. Like sure it's a big part of his identity, but it doesn't define who Zoro is. Not even close

obtuse anchor
obtuse anchor
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he will not be roronoa zoro anymore, he will be shimotsuki zoro. it's not a new identity ofc, but it will always be there

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my biggest issue is that it goes against the whole ronin vibe. this is a complete 180

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from unknown rando making his way through life to the gifted sowrdsman from a prestigious bloodline

obtuse anchor
alpine saddle
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...yeah, but Mip, if you always looked at Zoro as Ryuma's descendant, what changes?

brittle hinge
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^

alpine saddle
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seemingly, nothing. it's your choice to look at it in that way. so Oda's options here are most likely gonna consist of trying to keep that option of looking at it that way as a minority.

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which basically just means he's gonna keep doing Oda things, b/c Oda does Oda things best.

obtuse anchor
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he becomes the embodiment of a shimotsuki

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it would be the same as luffy deciding to chase his dad bc he suddenly feels scared and misses him

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it's a complete 180 from one of the defining characteristics of the character

alpine saddle
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...are you not much of a ronin... b/c you're the descendant of a samurai?

obtuse anchor
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yes, that's part of it. a ronin is a swordsman of unknown origins who doesnt speak of his past and even his name in some cases (like ushimaru for ex). so when zoro's entire family history becomes known AND we find out that he has trained at HIS family's dojo in their fighting style what's so ronin about him then

alpine saddle
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the fact that, tbh, Oda probably won't have people actually tell Zoro his own lineage

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b/c that would be Oda.

obtuse anchor
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it doesnt matter if zoro knows or not, what matters is that the reader knows lol

alpine saddle
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but then it's up to reader perception, which is why I said, it's up to choice

obtuse anchor
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we're not discussing this from the perspective of an npc, we're readers

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the definition of a word is not up to choice

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i cant just open the dictionary and decide that the word "eat" means smth i prefer over the original meaning

alpine saddle
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...hm, right. ok, reasonable complaint there. ...which means now we have to wonder how Oda will find his way out of this one 😄

obtuse anchor
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again, this is not to say that oda fucked up or anything, it's just a choice i do not agree with

white cradle
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i agree with Mip has said

clear zenith
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if zoros goals or way of life changes due to him learning about his lineage then thats a big problem imo, he can feel more responsibility to help wano and stuff but hes his own indivudal, a pirate, a straw hat, the future greatest swordsman he shouldnt change those things due to this

scarlet mirage
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really having to hold back a lot, I don't want to contradict my own post lol

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just in short, this is a minor character pivot to me rather than a full-blown degeneration of previous ideas. the ronin stuff was never a fully idealized theme for him, it was just there subtly in his inspirations that oda used

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Next debate I'm gonna argue in favor of my own thoughts

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Also, since I haven't seen it yet- idk if y'all checked the #events post, but there is a role to ping if you want to have your post pinned. It should look at least a little similar to what was pinned so far, but it doesn't have to be anything crazy. The role is @ debate mediator

rustic oriole
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I don’t think lineage takes away from peoples accomplishments but it does however force expectations on them which if managed poorly can certainly invalidate their accomplishments by making it feel pre-ordained/fated to be so.

For example Momo being Oden kin has forced so much expectations on the poor guy that it’s almost impossible for him to even begin to measure up. His lineage almost invalidates the fact that he’s just a little kid by giving us so much expectation for him. This isn’t a bad thing in a vacuum, in fact it’s a great tool used in storytelling, shoes too big to wear but must be grown into sort of vibes. In the case of Momo, we also had no idea who he was until way after meeting him, which allowed us (and the strawhats) to look at Momo from a perspective literally no one else has ever seen before. We didn’t look at him as the child of a distinguished fellow who is destined to do great things, just a kid who’s been dealt a rough hand. This really grounded Momo until Oda began drip feeding us more information about him and began showing us there’s more to him than we may have thought. If we had known from the get-go of his lineage, his journey of growth would have felt something to be expected rather than a genuine accomplishment.

So the reason I went on this tangent about Momo is to articulate one point: with great lineage comes great expectations and us being privy to such info from the get-go genuinely alters how we measure certain characters and their actions. If this isn’t handled properly it can certainly take away from a person’s accomplishments by reducing it into something that’s expected from ones bloodline.

With respect to how controlling such reveals helps a characters accomplishments feel more deserved, finding out so late in the story that Zoro’s lineage may be a big deal does not take away from his accomplishments as much as reveal that swordplay is literally in Zoro’s blood. Learning swordplay is in Zoro’s blood sort of changes nothing about him because that’s exactly how Zoro was introduced, a kid who’s got some deep drive to git gud with swords.

If from the get-go we knew Zoro came from a legendary line of swordsman, we’d sort of just expect him to become that and that’ll be it (which would 200% cheapen his journey). Because we haven’t been exposed to that piece of info though we can observe and appreciate the sheer amount of effort Zoro put into becoming who he is, without invalidating it with expectations (“of course he’d become that strong he’s the son of so and so, etc”).

Kid Zoro was strangely powerful, he would wonder into dojos and beat up adults. It was always strange yes but we never really questioned it much because he was supposedly always strong and into swordplay. That must be how it was for Zoro’s ancestors too. Zoro unlike them however had his incident with kuina and it pushed him over the edge. On top of his clear natural strength and talent, he trained like a monster day in and day out and no matter what anyone says, he earned the results of that for himself. His lineage may be the reason why he felt the need to get into swordplay, and why he was stronger than adults as a kid, but it certainly does not take away from his accomplishments. If we had found out much earlier, it would have to some degree cheapened the results. Finding out now doesn’t change anything besides offer an explanation to why kid Zoro was so tough. Tough guys having tough kids isn’t a bad thing, and there’s no way such a thing can take away from the sheer amount of effort it took for Zoro to get to where he is today.

scarlet mirage
obtuse anchor
clear zenith
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zoro being from a strong lineage is actually a pretty well thought contrast between himself and sanji, sanji obviously suppose to be born with an enhanced fighitng body but it failed and thus him having to get his strength through himself only

scarlet mirage
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What I mean is that it was never said. I'd ask you this: Does Zoro himself ever value any of the ideals a ronin would have directly? I'd make the argument it actually is irrelevant to his character in some ways... His "motif" when he was created was reminiscent of those ideas, but did Zoro himself or Oda ever draw attention to them?

rustic oriole
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Zoro didn’t seem to embrace his inner ronin trope until wano

scarlet mirage
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I think the answers to those questions make a strong case as to whether or not this is a devolution of, or a switch of his character

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I'd argue it's actually irrelevant, despite me not being a fan of the lineage stuff whatsoever

clear zenith
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yea it feels like an add on branch to his character rather than revealing why hes like this or what he should be like

scarlet mirage
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The ideas that I attributed to Zoro aren't necessarily present or made significant in any way for the story

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so it's like... I'm not a big fan of this development, but does it actually change what we already know concretely?

tender shale
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one aspect that I always focused more on in a "ronin" was the fact they are masterless. of course zoro will not do something that he does not think is right, but he is extremely loyal to luffy. one of the top traits that comes to mind for zoro for myself is loyalty actually, which i wouldn't consider ronin-like at all.

scarlet mirage
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Indeed. I'd call the ronin stuff more of a base-level inspiration for Zoro's character which developed differently afterwards than an unchangeable factor in his personality

rustic oriole
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You can say Zoro is masterless in his 3 sword style, a form which he made himself

clear zenith
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well zoro does have conquerors haki which could be connected to masterless and like some of the worst gen said in saoboady luffy must be amazing to have zoro follow him

clear zenith
scarlet mirage
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It's also difficult to call Luffy his "master" I'd say

rustic oriole
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Well Luffy cornered him like a devil would, “join me or die here”

scarlet mirage
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just to be fair

rustic oriole
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And Zoro began respecting him and his even more insane dream

tender shale
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i wouldn't call luffy his master, but the loyalty aspect is strong in a samurai to me

scarlet mirage
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that is an excellent counter-point

rare lantern
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Lineage means nothing, it's about how it's executed

You gotta understand. After 24 years, I want more from Zoro's story arc. Oda made his flashback so forgettable to me. That's not to say that it isn't impactful or fleshed out properly, it's the way it's portrayed. Every other Straw Hat's backstory, I had an emotional connection with them. For Zoro, it was always a little odd. I didn't cry or really feel anything with his. It's so different in how short and concise it sets up his motivations and goals for the rest of the series. Set aside any judgmental views you may have from any other series you've seen where "being special" or lineage end up being the final crux to the story. Look at it from the perspective of the most base-born reader. We have virtually nothing on Zoro. He is steadily progressing in power to close the gap between him and Mihawk.

He has become even more reliant on the help of the other Straw Hats, allies, and people around him. But has he ever really had moments where his views are put into question or he's gone through a dramatic change or even just a little more to the idea of why he wants to become the World's Strongest Swordsman. See, he didn't need this lineage shit, but I wholeheartedly accept it because he has the least amount of character development. It will enhance him as a whole. Lineage doesn't mean inherently bad things. It could easily be put in retrospect to his achievements. I mean look at Sanji for WCI. He got a whole ass second arc dedicated to him that established a prodigy family. Yet, he doesn't accept them, they don't want him, and he has only gotten here because of his own will and Luffy asking him to join. It doesn't take away anything at all because at the end of the day, One Piece has never portrayed these people as just "nobodies."

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Shit, I mean look at Nami, Robin, Jinbe, Franky. Nami is good at navigation and she was just raised by a Marine. Robin is the most important person they need to learn about the Void Century and Laugh Tale. Jinbe was seen as one of Fishman Island's greatest protectors along with being associated with the Fisher Tiger. And even though Franky came from nobody, look at who influenced him. Tom, the motherfucker who built the Oro Jackson, Gold Roger's ship. I never really got the perception that Zoro was a "lone wolf" or a "ronin" from the get-go because when we see the guy, he's the nicest dude in the universe and he accepts Luffy pretty quickly. What he lacks in character development he gets in character defining moments. The green bastard has probably the most feats out of all of the Straw Hats. But I really do think Oda has always tried to establish something more here with One Piece about family, lineage, and "being special." It's that even if you are related to some generational super family, some prophetic figure from the past, or even just a dad who has a notorious reputation. You don't let that define you.

Look at fucking Yamato for example! Kaido did a doodoo and just had her chill out with some sweet ass Samurai guys. But look at what happened. The fucking daughter is not only rebelling against him because of how he treated her but because Kaido is in the way of her dreams, her freedom, her story, her life. You can call Kaido stupid all you want. The same thing occurred with Garp, and even though he is a big player involved with Luffy's life. Clearly, Oda is painting this picture that even you are special, even if you are not special, you are never letting anyone take away your accomplishments from you. Especially when they are the root cause for that rebellion or the reason for that dream. I mean look at Luffy. He was given the Pirate King Roger's hat from Shanks the Yonko, is the son of Dragon, and the grandson of Garp. He's also most likely Joyboy. I see Zoro getting backstory and lineage here as a stepping stone or a means to enhance his character. He'll be related to Ushimaru and/or Ryuma but he's the one that gets to succeed. He's the one that decided to join some stupid ass rubber boy's crew.

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To me, it doesn't take away anything because they got here on their own regardless. This just makes Zoro more interesting and I cannot wait to see where Oda goes with this.

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I can go to sleep now waaGONE

scarlet mirage
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Ok, gonna start combining these into one post for ease of access

clear zenith
rare lantern
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100%

potent sapphire
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a powerscaling channel?330

rare lantern
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I think it's the fact that they are so far and inbetween. We could certainly use way more time for him to grow.

scarlet mirage
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ARGUMENT:
Does lineage take away from character accomplishments? If true, for example, does Zoro having Shimotsuki lineage detract from his character (if he does)? Or any other character? Why or why not?

Beginning of the discussion: <#debate-arena message>

FOR:
fatsumo#2009: <#debate-arena message>
Mip#6357: <#debate-arena message>
Choc#2462: <#debate-arena message>

AGAINST:
PES🔧#9001: <#debate-arena message>
V i c#6918: <#debate-arena message>
ShimOdy#2002: <#debate-arena message>
EvanTengu#7777: <#debate-arena message>
reflub#6319: <#debate-arena message>
el_wilson#9811: <#debate-arena message>

RESULTS
https://strawpoll.com/szrw56ufg/r
Majority were against.

scarlet mirage
rare lantern
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But to me, that's why it doesn't detract from Zoro. I love the guy and want to see way more of what he's all about.

queen vector
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shit got serious

clear zenith
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you could definitely argue zoro hasnt had the sort of reflection post timeskip cause hes been unfazed. he had a moment in punk hazard where he had to tell luffy to get serious but thats about it so having this is a bit overdue, something new for zoro to look at and question

marble saddle
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Interesting debate topic

rustic oriole
scarlet mirage
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was fun writing out the opposite of how I feel about it

rare lantern
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He's like a different metric altogther. I see both sides tbh. On one hand, you don't want any main character to be too special or get a bunch of hand-me-downs basically. It takes away from their accomplishments little by little. But on the other hand with Zoro, I'm like damn Oda, where's my second Zoro arc? You gave Sanji one ZoroCope

scarlet mirage
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understanding the other argument is key to defeating it joesunglasses

rare lantern
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I'm just really excited to see more Zoro regardless

marble saddle
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short answer, i don't see why it should detract from character accomplishments, because what the character was able to accomplish and their progress throughout the series doesn't change despite what we might learn about them later on

rare lantern
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It would be so funny if Ryuma nor Ushimaru were revealed to not be related to him and it just being Inherited Will OMEGAROLL

clear zenith
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isnt a big part of one piece though the fate of these characters coming together and creating this crazy event to flip the world upside down finally

scarlet mirage
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It absolutely is! One Piece just generally feels like a epic, composed of a set of miraculous events

clear zenith
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i personally dont like when characters have a fate but i try to look past it, especially for one piece

scarlet mirage
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so I think the idea that the straw hats are fated people, while I still dislike it for some characters, is completely understandable

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Could go on a LONG tangent about SH characterization and why it's perfectly ok, despite your favorite lacking attention. but that's another topic

marble saddle
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yeah this is a huge topic

rustic oriole
tender shale
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i dislike fate, but even if a character is fated to do something, i don't think that takes anything away from how they got to that event. their circumstances still influenced them enough to bring them to a point where they made that fated decision. but it also just depends on how someone views the meaning of fate, and how much it encompasses. i think a lot of this question can just be brought back to "was it fate", which everyone can interrupt differently, so it is hard to answer.

clear zenith
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only thing worse than Fate is "changing fate" that stuff annoys me

chrome mist
scarlet mirage
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but it also just depends on how someone views the meaning of fate This is absolutely key, and especially in OP I think oda leaves it intentionally ambiguous. In fiction fate can vary between literally being led by the gods to just being the right man in the right spot

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Even the word itself can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Fate, destiny, luck, these words in my estimation are interchangeable, if you're talking from the perspective of someone who is actually living in the world where said "fated event" happened

clear zenith
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its like if luffy doesnt destroy fishman island thats bs, it was his fate to do that

chrome mist
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You agree with my interpretation of fate fats? I use chapter 100 as base for it

marble saddle
tender shale
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his accomplishment is a showing of his strong will to become it
yeah this how i like to view it. even if he is "fated" via his lineage, that does not at all change his intense desire and motivation, which we have seen time and time again.

clear zenith
scarlet mirage
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oda has brought up that specific idea a few times and with that interpretation of fate, it allows for the characters to keep their agency

chrome mist
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I used corazon as example. He wanted to defeat doflamingo, failed, passed it down to law. Then even when law couldnt beat him, he met luffy who was able to

scarlet mirage
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So with all of that being understood or interpreted as such, i think it allows for the characters who do have a strong lineage or destiny attached to them still maintain their character and agency

chrome mist
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Yep

rustic oriole
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Yeah I think Oda be juggling Fate and freedom pretty sublimely, despite luffy being some blatant chosen one destined to do something great, his agency is kept in tact and his destiny doesn’t ironically subtract from his desire for freedom

marble saddle
# clear zenith fate in story telling is when the story writer blatently tells us theyre gonna r...

yes exactly.. their fate in that instance is confirmed to the audience. But in this case a person is fated to do something simply because we know it'll happen. It's not some sort of premonition ie: Luffy will become King of Pirates. Some would say that is his fate, but in this definition it kind of isn't because we haven't seen the future yet. So I'm still slightly not sure how to define "fate"

clear zenith
normal blade
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Fats I saw a comment somewhere up that said you would argue your own thoughts next time. Does that mean you don't think it detracts and just argued against your belief?

rustic oriole
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Fats did what we like to call a confusing gamer move

marble saddle
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which was like a premonition ig

rustic oriole
scarlet mirage
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I intentionally chose to type out an opinion that I opposes my own for a few reasons
1 I didn't wanna prop my own self up as the first pin to just shill how I feel
2 just for an example as to how the big pinned arguments should look
3 cuz it was hella fun, I like being able to argue against myself

clear zenith
rustic oriole
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One that can kinda be fulfilled by anyone who meets the right conditions and this time it happened to be luffy

normal blade
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Gotcha SaboThumbsUp

scarlet mirage
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As you probably know I'm typically a fencesitter on a lot of topics. When things like this that are unclear pop up, the shit I spent typing out in this case appears in my head despite disagreeing with it generally, and so I find myself unable to go fully in on one POV

marble saddle
clear zenith
marble saddle
hollow nexus
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Hello, this is where the event is taking place correct?

scarlet mirage
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That's right! Check out the pins if you're interested in seeing some takes so far

hollow nexus
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Okay NamiPray

rustic oriole
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I wonder what side fol argues for

marble saddle
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oh pins nice! ok i talked through my thoughts... lets see what yall think

frail pasture
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I'm hyped for the next subjects cuz my opinion on this is pretty basic

clear zenith
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same

rustic oriole
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I got an idea for a great debate topic

clear zenith
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its a relevant talking point rn but in a few weeks its gonna be forgotten unike other debates

lethal falcon
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Lol ill just think "neat hes a shimotsuki"

scarlet mirage
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We've got some lined up, but please DM me if you have a good debate topic. Gonna hopefully do this during break weeks

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and potentially more often, we'll see

hollow nexus
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I’ve read yours fats, interesting CrocThink

clear zenith
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I-is power scaling gonna happen, im scared

scarlet mirage
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My take there is me playing devil's advocate against what I think

frail pasture
lethal falcon
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Just go to manga for that lol

scarlet mirage
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No powerscaling stuff planned

hollow nexus
frail pasture
lethal falcon
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Do one about shanks death vs bb plz

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Or just shanks death ig

clear zenith
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thats more theory based and a bit too specise

tender shale
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one thing this topic made me think about is how realistic it is that a person does something similar to their parents, although in real life it is being around them that causes this influence

lethal falcon
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DamB

frail pasture
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Yeah we need large subjects that are debatable

clear zenith
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debates id wanna hear are like, opinions on the story in general like this

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like was long ring long land actually bad

scarlet mirage
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yep, that's the general idea of what we're going for currently

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may stray away from that in the future, but we have quite a few good topics (at least I think so) lined up that are similar

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anyway we should get back to the topic

marble saddle
hollow nexus
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I would have to say on fats point about demoralizing kids or some shit, don’t you think different cultures MIGHT come into play here(Mup/anyone who’s more inclined in Jp should correct me or bash me if I’m wrong) like, would the existence of traditional royal hierarchies or just a prevalence if hierarchies in general influence one to right this way because in that culture(not Jp exactly but could beKingShrug ) being born into a royal or ‘destined’ bloodline might be accepted as something that’s just there and the demoralization of young fragile minds might not even happen? CrocThink

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Well, bye again LuffyWave

marble saddle
clear zenith
rustic oriole
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If Oda wanted lineage to be end all be all, the celestial dragons would not be such a sorry bunch

hollow nexus
hollow nexus
rustic oriole
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I get what you mean

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A lot of people in power would prefer to keep the hierarchy as stable as possible

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To preserve their position on it

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I like the way Oda introduces a big lineage after we get a sense for the type of person someone is

clear zenith
rustic oriole
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You guys ever notice how the people who come in announcing what a big deal they are tend to the biggest jokes

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While the ones who prefer to keep to themselves, who secretly have heritage, are actually bosses

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Sabo is a great example, his brother became a king, he could have too because of his noble birth instead he became one of the best warriors in op

clear zenith
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buggy is truly the boss, barely even talks about being rogers apprentice because he knows hes better than roger

rustic oriole
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By allowing us to see the type of person someone is before telling us they’re a big deal, it helps ground greatness within the person themselves rather than reduce it as something to be expected from a person born better than others

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Yamato tho is kind of an exception but if you look into her past you can tell she has plenty of merit beyond her superficial blood relation to kaido

clear zenith
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yamato doesn’t really hold her bloodline with pride but more of an identity she has to bare the burden of

rustic oriole
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She may have been tough enough to handle grown people as a kid, but that was never enough and she kept challenging the likes of kaido over and over despite getting nearly beaten to death every time

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Growing so strong in such an environment, is that because she’s kaido’s kid or is that because she kept pushing herself?

clear zenith
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good idea, i hadn’t noticed that the idea of lineage was actually being referred to with kaido telling yamato to not stoop so low as humans when being an oni. kaido is literally telling yamato her lineage should be directing her while yamato is refusing that

shadow bone
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i dont think lineage is gonna take away from zoro because hes not the type to care even if his dad is like the most legendary samurai of all time

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in fact i feel like we'll see yamato learn from zoro how to not let lineage detract from character

clear zenith
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Zoro doesn’t seem to really care about his lineage

green sand
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Introduction

The special origins of characters can be an interesting concept to explore in stories. However, depending on the character at hand, it can understandably be a development that finds itself becoming a divisive topic amongst readers. As for me, I wholeheartedly do not believe the significance of Zoro's lineage takes away from how I value his achievements.

(1.) Zoro's Perspective

  • To understand why this isn't a negative development for Zoro, an important subject to tackle is how the actual character in-story would feel about the revelation. For Zoro's case. he would merely acknowledge his lineage's existence, but not pay it much mind and simply continue carving his own path. Thus, the lineage will more than likely just exist as a backdrop for fans of the character to enjoy, without its existence actually poking its head out in-story much at all.

  • As for what I mean by this, it's not as though upon learning this that Zoro would then go bragging about his ancestors, nor would opponents he faces in-story know about it and bring it up as the source for why they believe he's so strong. It would take extreme scenarios such as these to actually make the whole "chosen one" feel like an annoying reality to me, and make the revelation a negative one.

(2.) Catalyst

  • From the very beginning of Zoro's tale, a bloodline is not what gave him the initiative to keep challenging Kuina thousands of times, nor did it destine him to be training all the time and lifting weights. The answer to what all of those actions sparked from was something much more simple. They spawned from the feelings of frustration out of an opponent who shared his same goal being better than him. This is all clearly spelled out through Zoro's flashback scenes.

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0005-012.png
https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0005-014.png

(3.) Empathy

  • Additionally, the previous point is exactly what makes Zoro manage to still be a completely down to earth character. His actions from the very beginning stemmed from emotions that normal people can relate to. Everyone in their life has gone through a point where they wanted to be better than someone else at something, or tried to break some record. Zoro merely extrapolates from those preexisting sentiments and takes them to a role modelling degree, that readers can look up to.

(4.) Ambition

  • Zoro having the ambition he does to be the greatest is not some otherworldly dream his lineage must have fated upon him to strive for either. Plenty of people in the series have wanted to become the strongest swordsman, and do in fact challenge Mihawk all the time. Here are some arbitrary Newkamas, as some examples.

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0561-004.png

  • During the story, we have gotten to see how the pieces fell into place in real-time, for Zoro to have the exact level of conviction he does now for his dream. Along his path, he has made specific promises completely out of his own will, thus making the weight of his dream heavier by his own hands. Whoever Zoro's parents are had nothing to do with him gaining the friends he has now, and putting his resolve forward to say what he did for their sake in scenes such as Baratie.

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0052-014.png
https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0052-015.png

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_ _
(5.) Realistic Effort

  • There have never been any special Shimotsuki genes at work that were finely attuning Zoro to specific swordsmanship practices. For example, even learning Koushiro's lesson of feeling the breath of all objects took Zoro numerous years and tons of work to finally grasp the moral of.

  • Another example of Zoro's realistic efforts in regards to swordsmanship is how he's still trying to grasp the concept of forging a black blade which Mihawk told him about, years later. As such, Zoro has never been some natural born prodigy that instantly knew how to apply the things he has been taught.

  • Zoro says it himself in the following page. He's pushed himself harder than anyone, and been in the face of death countless times to build himself up to who he is. If that much effort isn't enough to give the full respect to his achievements as just an individual, then I wouldn't know what is.

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0194-015.png
https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0779-003.png

Conclusion

In conclusion, I do not think this Shimotsuki lineage takes away from Zoro and what he's built himself up as. Zoro will continue to be an empathetic, flawed, and gratifying character who works tooth and nail to fulfil his own promises we've seen him make along the way, no matter who or where he comes from.

1st Rebuttal

But people in Zoro's flashback say that he was stronger than everyone else in his dojo, including adults. This means his special lineage must have been giving him an unfair advantage of extra strength right from the start, thus taking away from his accomplishments.

This can't be said for certain, as the Zoro that's shown once his flashback begins isn't a good representation of how he was actually from scratch. It's important to note that the kid Zoro we first meet is him after he's already gone through 2000 matches with Kuina, and who knows how much training and fights with other people. Just because he lost all those matches didn't mean he wasn't constantly improving each time.

As such, Zoro being stronger than the other kids and even trained adults doesn't have to mean his genes were in fact giving him this boost of baseline strength. It's possible that any other kid in the dojo could have been that person to match Zoro's level of strength at the time, but they simply weren't putting in anywhere near the same amount of work as him. (As shown in this below page.)

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0589-007.png

2nd Rebuttal

Zoro's lineage takes away from his character because it means things weren't mere coincidences anymore. He didn't just stumble across the Shimotsuki dojo, but rather his roots always meant for him to be there to allow him to become as strong as he was, along with the proper bloodline enabling him.

What allows these series of events to still feel solid is that there were a vast pool of individuals who were all under a similar umbrella as Zoro. There were plenty of other kids all at the dojo, and given the nature of Shimotsuki village, it's highly likely they descended from proper samurai or Shimotsukis as well. However, they did not go on to be crazy strong individuals, and are instead still at the dojo living modest lives.

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0807-007.png

The fact that there was such a contrast made between their strength and Zoro's despite their similar origins goes to show how the effort he put in was paramount.Thus, just being at Shimotsuki dojo, being trained by Koushiro, and having samurai bloodline doesn't automatically mean anyone there is bound to become a ridiculously strong person. Zoro was merely the one who was able to make the most out of those non-exclusive circumstances he was sharing with many of the other kids, to become the strongest out of them.

frozen solstice
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Pic attachments huh BuggySweat

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I would agree with your point on Zoro perspective yeah I don't think it he would take a sudden turn like that.

frail pasture
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I wish I could add to the conversation but my opinion of it is centralized around the real influence of genetics into the next generation, not in the One Piece world but in the real world. And these two are totally different so it wouldn't make sense for me to try to talk scientifically on such fiction. But I will certainly read the pinned opinions because I lack in general information and research into Zoro and his character (which is also a reason why I have little to say about this subject)

fast kite
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emoji_pog new channel

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to people who think it doesn't matter, how do you feel about momo, luffy, ace, yamato, katakuri (weak-ish example) etc.?

fast kite
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I'll try and do a write up, let's see. probably won't be as big as shim's though.

clear zenith
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ace and zoro are polar opposites for lineage. Zoro set his goals and did his work all for himself with no knowledge of his lineage, Ace did the things he did because he knew his lineage

fast kite
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Basis of my argument would be the impact of genetics in the world of one piece, not just in how they impact people within the world, but also the readers of the series.

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Using a few examples:

  1. probably the most prominent example of "genetics" in the series, Luffy. Constant reinforcement of his abilities making sense due to his lineage, most prominently during marineford, where his use of CoC is attributed to his connection with Dragon by multiple people, as well as Ivankov remarking on his ability to gather allies also being somewhat related to his direction connection to Dragon. We also have him being a member of D clan, which we see commented as being relevant by the sea kings in ch. 968. Point is, there's a lot to Luffy's abilities, destiny/fate etc. that correlate with his genetic ties.
  2. Ace, viewed as a threat by simply being related to Roger. Sengoku, Roger and WB all believed he could become the 2nd pirate king, his lineage playing a big part of that (was strictly the sole reason for roger).
  3. Yamato's strength seems to consistently be defined by being related to Kaido e.g. "she is kaido's kid, of course she is strong", so we can say a big source of what people think contributes to her strength, is her lineage and direct relation to Kaido.
  4. Momo in his adult form heavily implied to look similar to Oden by Shinobu. He has grown considerable muscle mass despite not training, likely due to genetics inherited from Oden, who was very similar (someone who was strong since birth, and likely did not require training to become strong, just was inherently strong).
  5. Sanji is kind of a different example, but we see how genetics plays a part in his story as well. We see that he gets pretty significant bounty increases purely due to his familial connection to the Vinsmoke family. We are currently seeing what appears to be his genetics interacting with the raid suit to possibly make him stronger (albeit, this is science shenanigans, but it plays into the theming of all this).
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Finally we move on to how any of this is relevant to Zoro. You can say he trained, had no knowledge of his lineage, he's not a test tube baby etc. but the main point I'm trying to make is how genetics can influence how a person is viewed, and how it can play into their achievements. Would Zoro be just as strong if he wasn't a Shimotsuki? (of course, this is all under the assumption he is one, if he isn't, this entire argument is kinda moot) Who knows. You can ask the same questions for other characters. Would Yamato be just as strong if she was say... adopted and not directly related to Kaido? Would Luffy be just as strong without his insane family history? Would Ace ever be considered a candidate for Pirate King if it wasn't his father who was the last one?
I think Zoro's lineage casts this sense of doubt, where we don't know if he actually would be in the place he is now if he didn't inherit these god swordsman genetics. Which is why it does imo negatively impact his character, because the knowledge is enough to cast doubt, and in Zoro's case, I think this goes against how he was built up as a character. He was built up as someone who was just a kid in a dojo who worked harder than others to gain strength. When the notion that maybe his lineage plays a part in how that strength manifests, it becomes hard to say that his story of being "just a kid" is reality.

fast kite
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his ability to use CoC is tied to his familial connections, his strength is often correlated to him being dragon's kid/garp's grandson. A lot of this happens in Marineford

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  • post-W7
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I'm not saying the training doesn't contribute. but can you say with certainty the lineage doesn't affect how it manifests? Can you say actually if he didn't have these genetics, he wouldn't only become as strong as he is currently when he's 30, or 40 or 50?

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Being as strong as he is at the age he is. Is it solely because of training? Is it a direct connection to Ryuma and Ushimaru? Is it both?

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Oh right. When you say training, I figure you meant zoro, not luffy PepeLaugh

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You think the genetics literally play 0 part at all?

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Sure, but that doesn't mean it doesn't negatively impact that imo. I'm not trying to insinuate his characterization is ruined, but I think that the doubt it casts over how much that lineage matters, is enough for me to say "I don't understand what this adds, only what it removes"

tawdry mirage
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Lineage has more ties to fate than a character being that strong

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Luffy isn't as strong as he is solely cause of his family

fast kite
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Sure, but it also plays a part in characters being strong. I think the Momo and Yamato examples emphasize that more than the others. Ace and Luffy tie more into fate, yes.

tender shale
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You can tie it all together. If Zoro wouldn't be as strong w/o that lineage, then he may not be where he is today, so he may not be fated to accomplish certain things

tawdry mirage
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Yamato's case would be a race thing tho which is entirely different

fast kite
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I mean, even prior to the race thing, if it is true, people still said she was strong because of a direct connection to Kaido. People said the same thing about Katakuri as well. Compote praised by Bege for being the 1st daughter.

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these are all minor examples, but I think they play into the perspective people have on genetics.

tender shale
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i don't think hers would be. since other characters like luffy have strength partially because of lineage, then why wouldn't yamato with kaido if they are human? we don't know how much she trained, except for that she fought with kaido. i guess that would be her training

tawdry mirage
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And against the strongest creature

fast kite
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Okay, but would she be just as strong if she wasn't directly related to Kaido? What she herself says isn't really relevant.

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It's the importance genetics has on people.

tawdry mirage
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Yes cause we know that characters can get leaps stronger by training with top tier fighters. We see this with Luffy, Zoro, Koby, and more

tender shale
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i see what choc is saying as, because of lineage, a character may gain X amount of baseline strength that normal people don't. they can train however much they want, but they will naturally be ahead because of the X amount.

fast kite
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I never asked if they could become strong. I said just as strong.

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Of course if you trained with Kaido your whole life, you'd probably become stronger. But Kaido intended on killing her. How do we know her genetics didn't play a part in keeping her alive for example? How do we know that she doesn't become stronger faster because of her genetics?

tawdry mirage
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So again, wouldn't that be a race thing more than a family thing?

fast kite
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that's only if they are a different race.

tawdry mirage
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Its not cause her dad is Kaido, its cause she's an oni with your reasoning

tender shale
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luffy having coc was tied to his family via marineford and they are human

fast kite
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Once again, for the 50th time, that's only if they are part of an "oni" race.

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and it still doesn't explain Momo.

tawdry mirage
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But Kaido lays out they are not humans lol

fast kite
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It can be taken metaphorically.

tender shale
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i don't think he does. i think that was a figure of speech because of her love for oden and commitment to freeing wano

fast kite
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it's not confirmed, the argument isn't about whether they're an oni race or not. We're not assuming that's correct here.

tender shale
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momo did some sword training, but that doesn't really explain that anyways

fast kite
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People still thought she was strong because of her direct connection before Kaido even mentioned the oni race stuff anyway.

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Which was my main point. It plays into how readers perceive things.

tawdry mirage
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Then I ask, how much can you chalk to lineage if you had to measure? Assuming Yamato is a human and its not a race thing, what difference would it make if she wasn't Kaido's kid?

fast kite
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I don't know, that was the whole point.

tawdry mirage
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You can't just say there is a difference with no proof tho

fast kite
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The point is that it definitely influences it.

tawdry mirage
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There's more evidence to suggest its just the training

tender shale
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personally, a character's motivation and actions towards achieving their goals is more important than their family maybe contributing to them being stronger, so it doesn't take anything away from me. his drive and the amount of training he did carries a lot of weight regardless.

fast kite
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so what evidence is there for Momo?

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What training did he do in the 3 seconds it took Shinobu to age him up?

tender shale
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i feel that. my concern is more along the lines of fated events being tied to lineage, which i find hard to put into words. although that could also be tied to this strength thing if you wanted it to be.

fast kite
tawdry mirage
# fast kite The point is that it definitely influences it.

So let's say Yamato was not Kaido's kid but the same story played out where she fought him for her whole life. You can't prove that there's a difference there in growth and you're just latching to the family lineage since thats the only difference here. Thats my problem.

fast kite
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and that little bit, is still a negative impact.

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You can't prove it's not related, when Kaido himself says it's related. Oni race or not, he cites specifically HIS blood.

tawdry mirage
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You're drawing a line there for no needed reason

tender shale
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yeah i understand that. i guess it would be beneficial for people who wanted more of zoro's backstory, but i don't think his character needed it.

tawdry mirage
fast kite
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I think Zoro's lineage casts this sense of doubt, where we don't know if he actually would be in the place he is now if he didn't inherit these god swordsman genetics. Which is why it does imo negatively impact his character, because the knowledge is enough to cast doubt, and in Zoro's case, I think this goes against how he was built up as a character. He was built up as someone who was just a kid in a dojo who worked harder than others to gain strength. When the notion that maybe his lineage plays a part in how that strength manifests, it becomes hard to say that his story of being "just a kid" is reality. @tawdry mirage

tawdry mirage
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You can argue character being affected by lineage but you can not connect that to strength unless its a race difference

fast kite
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if your only contention is with Yamato, I can remove yamato from the argument, my point remains the same.

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since you've literally only argued against the yamato point despite me bringing up Momo twice.

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3 times if you count the original post.

tawdry mirage
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Because you were attacking my Yamato point and I responded accordingly. I wasn't ignoring it

fast kite
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I mean, you did kinda ignore it. You kept bringing up Yamato after I asked about Momo lol. but w/e.

tawdry mirage
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If you did say something, I was mid typing so thats on you

fast kite
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??????????

tawdry mirage
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Anyways, hold up

fast kite
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no don't bother

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I won't respond to you.

tawdry mirage
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Cool, you don't have to

gleaming vigil
tawdry mirage
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For Momo, he's literally a direct showing of lineage not correlating to strength. He was born no where near as monsterously strong as Oden and his character arc revolved around that very point. Plus he only aged up to better utilize his mythical dragon fruit. Any excuse needed for his strength would then be connected to him having a Zoan fruit that boosts his strength more than lineage.

tender shale
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you missed his point. shinobu said momo looks like oden, who is large and strong, yet he was just aged up and didn't train during this timespan after he was aged up to look large and strong like oden.

unknown.png
tawdry mirage
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Just cause you look like someone does not mean you're at their strength

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Was Zoro at the beginning of the series as strong as Ryuma just cause they looked the same?

fast kite
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and the fact that Oden was also genetically strong ties into it. Just late genetic influence for Momo compared to Oden who had it since birth.

tawdry mirage
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Yup, the only reason Momo would be strong (even though he isn't shown to be yet) is because of genes. The mythical dragon zoan fruit means nothing but to look cool

burnt lion
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The dragon fruit isn’t making him look muscular and strong in human form

tawdry mirage
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We're talking about actual strength, not appearance

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Atleast I am

tender shale
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for momo at least, it could be viewed in a positive angle. he showed enough resolve to sacrifice 20years, so he potentially got the strength oden did at birth. the growth in resolve could have rewarded him with what oden had at birth. like he truly lived up to the family in a way.

tawdry mirage
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I wouldn't like that since his character has been about what he could do without having crazy strength but eh

fast kite
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Yeah. I'm not trying to paint any of these in a particularly negatively light (except zoro PepeLaugh), I'm just saying that the influence genetics plays on characters in One Piece is somewhat of a theme. so when genetics comes into play for Zoro like this, it's hard to say "No, this doesn't influence him at all". At least for me. I think most of the times genetics does matter, it's done in such a way that it makes sense. for example, the Ace one is probably the best way Oda has tied it into a character period.

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but if you're going to say it matters for ace, or other characters, it's hard for me to just say "but it doesn't matter for zoro because it doesn't"

tender shale
fast kite
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Yeah. I'm not a huge fan either, but there are some thematic advantages to it, but not the topic at hand here.

tawdry mirage
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We don't know exactly how much stronger a mythical zoan jumps a user's strength so it depends on Oda

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My main point regardless being that he's not strong simply for being Oden's kid

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Now his narrative and fate is another story

fast kite
tawdry mirage
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So much for not replying to me

fast kite
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lol. If you want to be petty, I can be petty Mr. Too retarded to look at messages above his "because I was mid typing"

tawdry mirage
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So I'm gonna stop typing my paragraph just cause you keep going lol?

fast kite
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durr me no know not how to use me eyes how to see message thinkan

steel island
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C'mon guys, be civil in here

tawdry mirage
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I wasn't even being rude earlier

fast kite
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"paragraph"

unknown.png
dense cypress
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lmao just drop it bro its still off-topic move on

tawdry mirage
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Honestly

tender shale
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looking back, you could make a point that it was always weird that he was stronger than everyone else in the dojo, which then would be more evidence for his genes factoring into his strength, but ASL killing all those animals as kids wasn't normal either, where sabo's lineage shouldn't give him any more strength than he should have

unknown.png
fast kite
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Yeah Sabo is a bit of an outlier. but Zoro was always portrayed as strong, with Kuina, (also a Shimotsuki) being his only competition.

tawdry mirage
tender shale
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he was also stronger than adults though

river agate
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Zoro has his own channel now KaidoSuccessBreedsJealousy Great ZoroPeek

fast kite
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anime doesn't help this convo 'cause it added the part with him just walking into the dojo randomly and being useless.

dire star
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I thought this channel wasn’t about powerscaling

tawdry mirage
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Nor their work ethic in comparison to Zoro's

tender shale
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i mean sure but he is still a kid. grown-ups in a dojo should mean that they have been training there for years. some maybe even since they were zoro's age.

tawdry mirage
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Its better to say imo that Zoro's lineage has more to do with him fated to being the strongest than how he gets there. Basically the end point is assured but the journey to get there is up to him

fast kite
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Better to say doesn't mean more correct to say.

tawdry mirage
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Because you can not prove it

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You can't say thats wrong

tender shale
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well if you are saying he is fated to be strong because of his lineage, then can't that manifest in this way?

tawdry mirage
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Then prove why here in particular is where his strength comes in and that its abnormal compared to if he was not in this lineage

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For it to manifest would mean it just gives him a new level power he did not have before

tender shale
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as a child he beat adults in a dojo, some of whom may not have any special lineage, and some of whom may have been training as swordsman for most of their lives. sure that is speculation, but i would consider it a good assumption of what adults in a dojo are like. it is definitely weird that he is stronger than grown-ups in a dojo as a child.

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if we go with this, that means these those adults are weaker than a child despite having trained in a dojo for however long. a child outpaced them.

tawdry mirage
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But see your point relies on you assuming how strong they should be when they've shown otherwise. Zoro is not some ordinary child and its shown by his strong will and crazy work ethic. The story presents that as the reason more than just him being a naturally that good. To say thats not the main reason just has less merit and relies on you assuming to fill in the gaps

tender shale
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i agree that his strong will is a large factor, but the fact that i am even going through this line of questioning shows the issues in presenting zoro's lineage now. even if there is stuff suggesting other factors are the cause for him to have this strength as a kid, oda himself has presented another explanation. as of right now, there isn't really anything saying that this lineage definitely is not another contribution to that strength.

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essentially what i am doing with this panel is showing that i now have a sense of doubt

unknown.png
tawdry mirage
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Thats technically true but there's more evidence to suggest otherwise. You can say he's fated to be the strongest I agree but the journey to get there is unmeasurable. You can't pick certain scenes of his feats and go "Yea, its cause of his genes" when there's no proof of how strong he should be in that part of the journey. Its all on how much experience and training Zoro has done up to that point so its more merit to him in particular

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Zoro is bound to be the world's strongest but the journey to getting there is entirely up to him pretty much

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His lineage has no direct ties to how strong he is when he does feats at a time, just where he ends up at the end

tender shale
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i wouldn't pick adult scenes of zoro and do that anyways. the reason i chose that panel is because a normal child of no special background, should presumably not be strong enough to take down grown adults. i do accept an answer of his will and training, as i always have pre-lineage, but this panel of him as a child is the closest thing we will get to a "baseline".

tawdry mirage
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But like, baseline to what tho?

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He is not just like any child

tender shale
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baseline strength, like how much of his baseline strength can be attributed to lineage

tawdry mirage
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Yea I'm talking about strength. What line does he have to measure given that he's done entirely different things compared to a normal child?

native flame
tender shale
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that is the point. now that we know he may have ryuma genes, that effects how him as a child can be viewed. we know he was not normal, but how much of that is because of those genes

tawdry mirage
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It depends on what he's done so far so its not dependent on his genes

tender shale
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i don't really have much else to say on this aspect tbh. we don't know if he is naturally stronger to some degree because of his lineage. there is some evidence via other characters to say he does, but i do think his motivation/drive and training speaks louder. i agree with choc that has created a sense of doubt and i don't see any gain from knowing knowledge of his lineage other than ryuma is cool i guess.

tawdry mirage
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What evidence?

tender shale
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bro literally that entire fucking conversation about the other characters having special lineage and being strong

tawdry mirage
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The Yamato and Momo stuff I already shut down. Plus you brought up Sabo as an outlier

tender shale
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you shut down nothing for me lol

tawdry mirage
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Well where do you disagree lol

tender shale
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im tired dude, done with this channel for tonight

fast kite
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"prove they are weaker without their lineage" okay ask oda to fucking draw the manga without it then.

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how do you expect someone to prove this??

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Just saying "prove something that you cannot prove. Oh you can't? invalid argument then"

tawdry mirage
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If you're just guessing with no proof then you have no merit

fast kite
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is not shutting down an argument.

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It's not guessing, there is literally evidence towards it, you are just asking for HARD proof, which is impossible to get unless Oda draws an alternative universe where Momo is completely unrelated to Oden.

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or Yamato is completely unrelated to Kaido. Or Ace completely unrelated to Roger.

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so until you bring forth an actual reasonable counterargument that doesn't require me to have space, time and reality warping powers, there's no point continuing this argument.

tawdry mirage
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When I say prove it, its based on what the story has shown. The story gives out good enough reasons for this character being strong like them training, devil fruit abilities, etc. There's never a jump in strength thats unreasonable to where you need an outside answer like lineage. So when I ask for proof, its to find a case where nothing but lineage can explain it

fast kite
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sorry I was mid typing, not gonna read whatever you respond with next, that's on you. Not my fault I chose to not read your message, I was in the middle of typing!! Have respect for my brain's real estate to process information.

tawdry mirage
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Salty lol

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Relax

dense cypress
fast kite
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its to find a case where nothing but lineage can explain it
If you can't even understand my argument, I'm not going to respond respectfully tbh.

tawdry mirage
fast kite
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I have never argued this point, so you're asking me to argue something that I never was, then saying my argument is incorrect, because I'm not doing what you've misrepresented my argument as.

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blatantly strawmanning, then saying "it's on you because I'm choosing to not read your argument correctly" and you expect me to take this shit seriously.

tawdry mirage
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I'm not expecting anything out of you tbf. I even said you didn't have to reply

fast kite
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then don't respond to my argument.

tawdry mirage
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you replied to me but okay

signal helm
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You all need to be more civil

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That's not an option

tawdry mirage
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Idk what else to tell them but relax

fast kite
# tawdry mirage *you replied to me but okay*

I replied to you because you were responding to my own argument? Then I asked you to respond to the momo point and you said "I didn't read what you said, that's on you"? Surely you can understand the confusion when someone says "it's your fault that I didn't read your point"?

signal helm
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i really think its best that whatever the situation is, that its dropped

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if you two can't have a debate without it devolving to something like this its best not to interact

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or 3 or 4 however many

tawdry mirage
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@dense cypress you don't gotta stop talking

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What was the sanji point?

dense cypress
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ok no offense but youve been hella disrespectful to everyone here who was just being polite you wont even let me type my ideas idgaf about this anymore

tawdry mirage
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I

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Well okay?

frail pasture
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Move on guys

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If it's bothering you so much just go do something else on discord, it's what I personally do

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Please, before this channel gets shut off because of negativity

devout galleon
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The way Oda goes about Zoro’s lineage will determine whether or not it takes away from his character imo

signal helm
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thats spot on rokaya

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basically what i was saying before

tawdry mirage
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I agree. Lineage only affects the character more than the feats

devout galleon
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Yeah I tried to scroll up to the beginning of the debate but its so many messages Crydo

signal helm
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yeah ill find it hang on

signal helm
tawdry mirage
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I think with the race thing its a separate issue

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Family lineage is different than being not human altogether

marble saddle
# signal helm most of my thoughts can be found below this

I defintely agree with your post. I think people with less development highlighted might get more distraction from their lineage then what's been presented in the story. I don't think this would be the case for SH most specifically Zoro. And think his development wouldn't be impacted (In the case it's true) by the lineage

devout galleon
signal helm
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yeah, thats basically how im looking at it. i'd prefer that, if zoros lineage made some major play in his development, that it was more for sake of explanation of his past, than it being purely sake of his power without further elaboration

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that goes for any character btw, not just zoro...just mentioning him bc thats the topic at hand

devout galleon
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Yeah definitely

tawdry mirage
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Would it tho? His character would not change just cause now he knows his family

marble saddle
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exactly

signal helm
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im not saying it will though

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im saying IF it did

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that would be bad

devout galleon
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His character wouldn’t change per se but it would change how we see him

tawdry mirage
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It seems more like ties to his fate than changing his character from before

tawdry mirage
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It'll really be out of character

marble saddle
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honestly it wouldn't change how I see him, in fact it would make me even more proud of him. He didn't have the support of his lineage to guide him, just his instincts. If anything it shows he's a person in touch with who he truly is as a swordsman

signal helm
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i stated in a lower post that i'd love the most for any lineage elaboration to reveal more about how a characters cultural upbringing weighs into their character

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i think thats whats paramount to me

devout galleon
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I trust Oda at this point to handle the family lineage trope well after seeing what he did with Sanji

tawdry mirage
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Sanji would be another issue cause him being mixed with another race directly goes against Sora wanting him to be a normal human

devout galleon
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It’s not really confirmed he’s mixed race though

marble saddle
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i'm really hoping he's fully human, to me that would be an issue in terms of lineage

tawdry mirage
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Thats true. I hope not

devout galleon
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Yeah the test results said Sanji was fully human in his flashback

winged aspen
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Even if he wasnt fully human, Sora wanting sanji to be "human" had far more to do with having empathy, emotions, and an outlook on life beyond the next fight than his physiology.

green sand
# tender shale he was also stronger than adults though

Well, the Zoro we see once his flashback begins isn't actually a great representation of how he was from scratch. I don't think that just because Zoro was stronger than the other kids and even trained adults that it has to mean his genes were in fact giving him this boost of baseline strength.

What's important to note about the Zoro we're shown in Ch 05 is that's him after he's already gone through 2000 matches with Kuina, and god knows how much training and fights with other people. Just because he lost all those matches didn't mean he wasn't constantly improving each time.

I think any other kid in the dojo could have been that guy to match his level of strength at the time, they just clearly weren't people who were putting in anywhere near the same amount of work as him.

glad horizon
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hi uhmm idk much about the current debates but to answer the topic's question, No Lineage does not take away from accomplishments nor does it detract the character. Example? Edward Newgate, Despite being called the former Worlds strongest man, isnt exactly one of the D lineage nor any famous/deadly group/ bloodline. The big mom pirates? amongst all her children, none are born with supernatrual strength like big mom does. i think its mainly due to the lineage's accomplishment that makes it seem like one lineage is mencaingly tough or seem superior to others

fast kite
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I don't think it has to mean that, but I think (again, assuming he is a shimotsuki) it's pretty telling that the only 2 people who demonstrated high levels of superiority to anyone else except the actual dojo master were both shimotsuki kids. You can sure just say they worked harder than anyone else, and sure, maybe they did, but it's a pretty big difference when children are wiping adults just with like, more training.

glad horizon
young geyser
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@raven nacelle That's not a topic for this channel.

split swan
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Was the “debate arena” always here?

steel island
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nope

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new channel that launched today

split swan
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Okay thanks

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Thought debate arena was always here but i didnt notice it

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For some reason

glad horizon
split swan
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😆

keen jacinth
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Imo it doesn't but overall depends on how you view things. You can be born from x talented family and still be nothing. You can have access to a lot of opportunities and still be nothing. Zoro accomplished his shit all on his own so even if his lineage is some royal legend it doesn't mean anything to me other than added character story

terse vector
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But still, you can't get to the top unless your birth privileges(we don't know yet about akainu and Bb), all those have reached the top have CoC and its more related to your lineage than your training

clear field
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Wait we still going on about lineage?

hallow mango
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Idk
Does.BM have particularly strong lineage?
Amd she is kinda strong ^^
Also is it confirmed that CoC is inherited, not earned?

clear field
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Not confirmed but most likely

obtuse anchor
terse vector
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Coc doesn't have to specifically depend on lineage, it has to depend on your birth potential, as you are born with it. And strong lineage is, I guess, better birth potential most of the time

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I don't have any basis for the last point tho

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Last point is just 'isnt it obvious' from my perspective

hallow mango
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So we asume that if you are born with it you can train to get it
But if you havent born with it no amount of training can make younhave it?

terse vector
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Wasn't it outright stated?

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Or am I remembering wrong?