manga-theories

[sharp anvil]

Haven't had my mind changed yet

[ancient vault]

You learned well

I havent seen anyone else bring more arguments than morj but what Morj brought is not enough and he left out bits that contradicted his arguments

[modest crane]

For what

[primal cargo]

Morj is a very good analyst. Theorist, sometimes

[ancient vault]

I dont think the Toki-Shinobu fruit theory is good

[spice grove]

I'll respond when I get home

[pure raven]

what’s a tdlr

[split glacier]

You need to tead more

[grand walrus]

maybe shinobus devil fruit is the ultimate counter to the immortality surgery

[velvet edge]

The immortality surgery is for eternal youth so it wouldn’t counter it. The person can still die by other means if I understand it correctly but it’s just perennial youth

[mystic crown]

Was peronsality switch in punk hazard awakening

By law

[split glacier]

No

[spice grove]

no of course not

[mystic crown]

I was looking at thoery here explaining laws awakening and realise that psrspnality swap debunks it

This was a good theory but I think its debukned

[reef sandal]

personality switch is an operation controlled by him within a room tho

[weak arrow]

The biggest issue with that post is the lack of counter argument to awakened zoans and how they don’t fit with what doflamingo said

[reef sandal]

zoan's aren't paramecias tho, the only thing that theory is on is paramecia awakenings unless i'm sorely mistaken

[mystic crown]

But it counters because the swap is a process that exsists and maintains outside the room.

[reef sandal]

but that's also true of his cuts
and shambles

kinemon remained cut after he left the room, and people that get body parts put places they shouldn't with shambles stay that way after the room drops

[mystic crown]

True.

Okay maybe the theory stands. I think i interpreted it wrong

[weak arrow]

but doflamingo wasnt specifying paramecia awakenings when he said it

[reef sandal]

remind me what doffy said?

[reef sandal]

that just wouldn't make sense for a zoan type to do, so this seems like an error on doffy's part

[mystic crown]

Zoans can turn objects into there fruit

[reef sandal]

that wouldn't fit a zoan powerset at all tho

[mystic crown]

Impel down jailers are objects given zoan ability by original user.

[modest skiff]

Either doffy is referring to paramecia only or our current understanding of zoan awakening gets a very intricate elaboration to keep the current definition

[mystic crown]

I cracked vegapunks secret

[reef sandal]

weren't jailer beasts revealed to specifically be awakened zoan users?

[mystic crown]

Rip. That is what crocodile said

Also crocodile was awakened.

[weak arrow]

or, my personal interpretation, is that "some awakenings can affect some objects aside from the wielder"

[reef sandal]

i don't think we know what an awakened logia power looks like

[weak arrow]

so not all paramecia awakenings will fit that description

[mystic crown]

Like Buggy

Could buggy chop anything he wanted

[reef sandal]

buggy would just get law's cuts

[mystic crown]

Without the room clause though

Infinite distance.

[reef sandal]

yeah
just free amputate whenever he wants
no mes tho

or would he also be able to levitate the parts

[mystic crown]

He probavly would

[reef sandal]

or not mes, tact

so buggy would awaken to get law's amputate and tact
which would fit with the original theory

is tsuru's df canon?

cause if it is that one basically exclusively affects entities other than her
unless the original function only affects her and she's awakened it

[spice grove]

Out of these the only accurate example and evidence for that idea is the Smiley one. Anything else is either unknwon or sth else.

I'm not claiming that its guaranteed to be as simple as "nearest fruit becomes the devil fruit" for all of these cases, but its the only theory that seems consistent with everything we know. For example, maybe big mom ate mother caramel and got her fruit that way, but that doesnt even slightly imply that the devil fruit reincarnation theory is false. Rather, it offers a potential secondary way to attain a devil fruit.

And yet even then, the evidence does seem to support that the power reappears somewhat nearby, regardless of the specific details of how the reincarnation works. I could make an argument for why whitebeard's, ace's, and caramel's fruits most likely reincarnated into a nearby fruit, thats irrelevant for the overarching point im trying to make. All im saying is that the devil fruit power usually ends up somewhere nearby somehow, based on what we've seen, regardless of the method, therefore the toki toki no mi was mostly likely on wano after toki died.

And considering both fruits actually are very accurate to their abilities I have a hard time believing theyre the same fruit

I strongly disagree with this. I already explained why shinobu's devil fruit awakening could very realistically be time travel. Based on the definition we are given of paramecia devil fruits, it fits perfectly.

Shinobu doesn't really have access to the Paradise Farm to begin with which I iirc think to be strongly protected but ig shinobu could sneak in?

Not really sure what you mean by access. Paradise Farm was in Kuri, close to Oden castle. And its not like it was being heavily guarded or something.

Nor do I see the connection to Zunesha here as I dont think this is a red herring.

This is a fair point. You could argue that they're both legends that existed a long time ago & WG are unaware of, but thats a stretch. COULD be a red herring.

[rapid nexus]

What if the fruit they were talking about is not Zunishas fruit, but Oda was foreshadowing that Zunisha could be possibly JoyBoy. He was forced to eat the fruit, and the greateast crime is of his exisstence and his actuions towards the WG.

[amber oar]

Bringing the OG Joyboy and revealing him alive would kill all the point of Luffy becoming "The New Joyboy ™️ ". It's like revealing the OG Poseidon is alive - what would be the point on Shirahoshi then. Nah, I don't think we'll see him in present time. 100% will have a flashback tho.

[pure raven]

wtf is going on

[grand walrus]

i think we can have a joy boy flashback, since we got one for liar norland. which was 400 years ago

so a flashback for a long dead character long in the past is already something we saw in one piece, and who better than joyboy

[spice grove]

I actually think the OG Poseidon is alive, coincidentally lol

[amber oar]

I mean, you think Saul and Olvia are, I'll let that sink in.

[spice grove]

This is a lil different lol

[proud tree]

Based on this theory some geographical features of the one piece world could be explained by Devilfruit awakenings: The Calm Belt is the slow slow fruit (current user Foxy ) applied to water eternally, slowing the currents and the wind there down. The Mist at the Florian triangle: Smokers fruit awakening applied for eternity on that region of the planet. The magnetic fields of islands: Kids fruit... maybe more features like Raftel being hidden: invisibility applied to an island for 800 years, etc.

[spice grove]

I genuinely do think Olvia and Saul being alive is a likely scenario, but for Poseidon I just see it as plausible

Long story short, I think she might be the treasure that Doflamingo was talking about in mariejois @amber oar

[grand walrus]

i think this is highly likely. So what does luffys fruit do?

since the sea kings use the calm belt to nurse their babies. is it something bad for them or something good?

[spice grove]

The calm belt is corazon's fruit maybe

Slow slow fruit is little garden

[grand walrus]

that cool. What is wano?

[proud tree]

the World Government hates the current geography, it hides one piece from them, they are unable to find and destroy it.

[grand walrus]

apparently the lunarians used to live above the red line. Maybe then, the WG didn't create the red line

it is actually not that powerful maybe

[proud tree]

And the eternal light at Ennies Lobby: Was the awakened light fruit, Kizarus fruit, lighting up that part of the world for ever...

[red anvil]

Very ass pull-y and contrived theory but I had fun thinking about it. Sorry if I wasted your time.

TL;DR Wano was an artificially built holiday island planned as an escape for Joyboy and Great Kingdom citizens. Moon Moon Fruit and Mink tribe were the security guards.

Assumptions:

1. Oli’s theory is right and Tama’s fruit had its name hidden. #manga-theories message
2. Hitetsu = Sukiyaki
3. Gorosei was referring to an awakened devil fruit rather than a devil fruit being consumed.

Tama may have achieved awakening for her specific devil fruit because she was under training with Hitetsu. Hitetsu knew the exact conditions to awaken the fruit as it was a Kozuki clan secret and promise that was kept for 800 years. It is possible that Joyboy passed this power to the Kozuki clan. Kozuki or Bright Moon, could be alluding to the clan’s mission as guardians of the Moon Moon Fruit.

The base ability for the devil fruit is for the user to create a “dango” from her cheeks. The awakened powers of Moon Moon Fruit could be this: the user is able to create dango from anyone’s cheeks, and depending on the cheek the size of this dango may be proportionately small or large.

The giant skull on Onigashima suggests an Ancient Giant (like Oars or larger) was present in Wano. The Ancient Giant could have been asked to pull multiple smaller islands together to create Wano. Perhaps having an Ancient Giant in the same proximity of an awakened Moon Moon Fruit user is to assemble the conditions for creating a giant (shining?) dango using a gigantic cheek. The Ancient Giant could then hoist or throw the dango up high.

Minks tribe ally is a symbiotic relationship. After said dango is airborne, it might give a pseudo moon effect to awaken sulong forms on demand.

[proud tree]

tbh ... I dont have a cool use for it... But maybe Blackbeards awakened fruit can create seastone from normal stone, since it has the same effect as his darkness on devilfruit users.

The black hole beneath Ennies Lobby seems like a crater on a big battlefield. The Wg is still proud of this place building their judgement system there, meaning they won there...

[proud tree]

Akainus fruit bcs of the Volcano? Here the possibilities are endless, since many fruit users could create giant stone mountains full of sea-stone ore...

[grand walrus]

what if luffys awakening is the "bounce back" effect. so he can make people bounce back to full health. like a healing ability, and he can do it to environments as well??

i know its stupid but if luffy has healing ability maybe he could heal environments

[worthy thorn]

Ok so I was thinking about this since the the new anime opening dropped like two or three weeks ago now. Since the very first opening, Toei has grouped characters together in cuts based on their standing, if that makes sense. Meaning characters that aren't / wouldn't be hostile are grouped together, antagonists are grouped together, and just straight up allies. In this new opening, Whitebeard, Roger, Rocks D. Xebec, and Shanks appear. I don't think putting Rocks there was just a coincidence or them being lazy tbh. More or less, just about everything in every opening to date is based in some form of what pans out in the story.

Off the top of my head, an example of my initial point about grouping is when Dragon appears as the last flashed figure in Opening 1. Regardless, I think later down the road, if and when the Rocks Pirates are talked about more, we are going to find out that Rocks was actually doing something / going for something, that we as the viewers would not dislike him for as much as the other antagonists' actions.

[red anvil]

That was likely a reference to this panel

[worthy thorn]

maybe, but i kinda just have fun making up stuff with little information and try to make sense of it, and then see how wrong i am :p

I also remember a panel during the early stages of the rooftop battle of Luffy and Kaido where Kaido drew attention to how Luffy said "Gomu-Gomu no" before every attack. The only other time this happened as far as I remember was in a filler arc on the anime. So for that reason, I'm inclined to think that maybe the Gomu-Gomu DF is the one the elders were talking about.

My thought process is basically, why would the writers bother to include a panel like that for no reason? The idea of including something like that for no reason at all makes no sense to me since they had to take time and effort to make it at all. So why bother unless it was going to become important.

[slim moat]

I read a theory about Joyboy on reddit.

Joyboy is based on an Indian king named Ashoka. Ashoka is opposite word for Sorrow(Shoka) in sanskrit. Also he is well known name in Buddhist history.

[reef sandal]

corazon's fruit just nullifies sound, not anything physical

[spice grove]

What would his awakening be then?

[reef sandal]

i'm not sure, his fruit is kinda abnormal

it's possible it's already awakened and the original application of the fruit is limited to sound produced by him

[raven knoll]

guys i have question if laws fruit the ope ope nomi can do the immotal life surgery will the fruit be erased once the surgery is done? will the ope ope nomi be able to revive?

[worthy thorn]

who knows? i think the theory post on the subreddit said that its likely just a never ending Kroom, but who knows

[raven knoll]

okayy

[cobalt kayak]

Isn’t ashoka from Star Wars?

[slim moat]

No. He was an Indian king. Just google emperor Ashoka

[cobalt kayak]

Someone meds to update the pinned theories

[primal cargo]

Yes, I deliberately didn't include Zoans in my theory because I can't really see anything in common between them and the known Paramecias
Possible that it's an entirely different process, possible that Oda didn't know what he was doing back then, possible my theory is just wrong

[primal cargo]

If that were true, it would mean no one has ever performed the immortality surgery, and then how could anyone know about it (let alone know about its cost for the user)

[bold trellis]

When will the spoilers be released?

[crude spear]

also is the name of a star wars character

[slim moat]

I know that starwars character. But this one is related to Indian king.

[crude spear]

lol ok

[supple coyote]

Yup!!! Brutal warrior wanted to rule all over India but later saw all the bloodshed caused by him and gave up fighting and started following the principles of Buddhism

[slim moat]

Yeah. Something similar.

[supple coyote]

Tomorrow evening u might one liner spoiler and then the following day(Wednesday) something substantial and finally on Thursday u get full summary

[bold trellis]

Thanx for the info

[clear ridge]

I read this cool theory from fb

https://myotakuart.com/news/588/?fbclid=IwAR1GdSLtG_3rrv5ANHUThqO1V42C7vJ4PkXG8w5J-4_jIdjfukhZz4CLX8A

[pure raven]

everyone of them is seen laughing brightly besides Shanks

[red anvil]

What’s your theory? Or is Shanks just a mopey dude?

[pure raven]

No theory! Just an observation considering the newer Joyboy thing and how a bright smile seems to be a sign/indicator of someone great

[red anvil]

Perhaps it’s Kaido’s recollection of them while fighting. Shanks would be the only one to fight Kaido after he’s Yonko so it would be a tough fight. Same as Luffy right now.

[crude spear]

@willow sierra nice theory, but I thought some...or all? of the revolutionaries were captured

they tried to infiltrate the revelry and got captured

or are you thinking they were sent to impel down after that?

ahh

[muted ember]

It's never stated they were captured. I don't think they were

[crude spear]

right, wasn't stated heavily implied.

[muted ember]

Plus they clashed w the Revolutionaries on the 4th day of the Reverie and there was another story about them after it ended so they were still doing stuff after they ran into Green Bull and Fujitora

No it wasn't one was the 4th day of the Reverie and one is at the conclusion

They were posted separate days is what I'm saying

I can easily prove it

[pure raven]

I mean fighting Roger, WB is always tough, so i dont see the point

[muted ember]

You're saying it's heavily implied they're captured and I gave evidence as to why they're probably not idk what the theory is being discussed

[crude spear]

what chapter was it where we first saw mu

[muted ember]

U have no evidence that they were captured and when I pointed out the discrepancy of them still being active after the clash, you countered by incorrectly stating it was all on the same day

I didn't mention Alabasta I said the revolutionaries were still active after the clash w the admirals

[crude spear]

Katakuri and Morley are the only 2 people we see with tridents in one piece also wrong btw

losing contact with the revs was what implied to me they got captured yeah

[muted ember]

Also it's been like 10 days since the clash and Fujitora still has injuries it wasn't so one sided that we should assume Sabo couldn't escape

[crude spear]

am poking fun at your wordage

[muted ember]

Yes nothing says they were captured which is my whole point

[crude spear]

@muted ember let's forget it lol. I brought up them being capturedd and all

I'm willing to see what happens

[muted ember]

U said Morley Karasu and Sabo are in ID how is that not saying they're captured?

[red anvil]

Garp’s eyes are blue
Luffy’s eyes are black
Belo Betty’s eyes are green

[muted ember]

So they're not in Impel Down? Where are they then bc that's more than grammar

U went from saying they're captured to not wanting to admit that's what u said lol

Let's bet on it then. 1 week mute

Bet: Dragon (or any revolutionary) will break into or be in Impel Down by the end of 1038.
Yes: @willow sierra
No: @muted ember

Wager: 1 week mute

[pure raven]

dragon in impel down? thats an interesting take

[abstract pond]

Cliff already regreating lmao

[pure raven]

it would be cool to see mengelin again tho

idk how to spell his name, the poison dude

[slate mirage]

Magellan

[muted ember]

I changed it

[primal cargo]

Better not create a new alt before one week has passed

[ancient vault]

What 1038??? 💀

[muted ember]

Everyone knows who u are lol don't even pretend

[pure raven]

This was cool

[frigid plume]

I need my One Piece fix

[stark star]

The Sanji one is interesting because I just watched episode of east blue and I noticed that.

[stark star]

Same bruh

Do you think luffys fruit is the special one the gorosei we're talking about

[sharp stump]

well i think its brook

sijce it wasnt awakened for centuries

[stark star]

I do find gears very odd actually. I don't think anyone else uses their fruit so weirdly.

[sharp stump]

the fruit hadn't awakened for centuries because even if somebody did eat it during those centuries, just like it happened with brook, they wouldn't know about their powers until they died and by that time, if their body got destroyed, cremated or fell on water, they wouldnt have a body to come back.

brook is with robin and he showed different abilities already that the CP0 would have reported to the gorosei.

the gorosei is afraid of it because maybe it gives brook the power to talk to the dead which could reveal secrets from void century.

[stark path]

It's zuniesha.

[stark star]

I highly doubt it's zuniesha

[stark star]

I highly doubt this too lol

Brook has eternal life, it's pretty dope.

[sharp stump]

well its the most a little logical one since if you a user of yomi yomi no mi no one can get the power till your dead

wait hes already dead yohohohoohoh

[stark star]

I will be honest, if Luffy ends up being a fire god or something and his fruit was something else the whole time, I doubt I'll be happy with it lol

[stark path]

What if it was a giant that ate an ancient zoan fruit? And since it's an animal it probably ate kibi dango from tama's fruit one of previous owners so it had to obey the order to wander endlessly

[abstract pond]

"Diable jambe - lunarian dna"
That's never stated in any place xd

[stark star]

Agree with this but also it would make a lot of sense. Sanji and his brothers are literally all cell from dbz lol

They have like top notch DNA imbued in them, extremely involved in human bio science

[sharp stump]

wha

[stark star]

Queen made sanjis dad seem more important to the weaponry science world

[abstract pond]

I'm not saying it's no true. But we didn't get any confirmation or anything.
Diable jambe could be just like Luffy's fire and nothing Lunarian.

[stark star]

Well lllllll

Luffys fire never being explained is why I'm slightly thinking his fruit is more

[sharp stump]

well its true for friction if its luffy but sanji doesnt really spin no more to activate his flame

[abstract pond]

You can't tell sanji has lunarian dna as a fact because it's not a fact as far as we know even if could be possible

[sharp stump]

just some togglet o activate flame or whatever

[stark star]

Bruh they are revealed to be indestructible, highly likely sanjis dad used this DNA to make his kids

Not a fact

[muted ember]

As of now, no

It may well become a fact later but it's not rn

[stark path]

Sanji having lunarian dna is probably the dumbest theory I've seen yet

[stark star]

No we are... Disagreeing with a statement

[abstract pond]

Haven't you read all the Luffy has oil oil fruit ones?xd

[stark star]

How lmao

Not like his parents were lunarian, but genetic altering. Look how big mom and kaido literally seek races that have specific gifts they want

[sharp stump]

love the power of love

[stark star]

It's like a whole race was knocked off the earth and all that's left is little traces of SCIENCE

[muted ember]

I think Sanji has Lunarian lineage factor, but it's not a fact

[stark star]

Bruh cliff making good points here y'all off base

It would make a lot of sense

[abstract pond]

We just saying he can't say it's a fact yet

[stark star]

Bruh I said that to his comment too, ik. Other than that tho

[abstract pond]

See you as toxic and edgy as always

[stark star]

He just misunderstands the situation?

Nbd

[sharp stump]

theory is no longer a theory if its proven lol

[stark star]

So y'all think shanks is gonna fight Luffy?

[abstract pond]

Why you being so defensive for a minor detail Cliff?
You said something that it's not true, no need to be so aggresive

[stark star]

I think it's fair to say that every single Yonkou as of now will no longer be a Yonkou at the end of the series. Or is that a stretch

[stark star]

He wants to have fun discussion just move on y'all on different wavelengths

[abstract pond]

See you on your next account

[stark star]

He feels like you are impeding that and he might have a point because you kinda did just jump in out of nowhere to say something we established
No offense bro

It's all good we all need some self awareness sometimes lol

Cliff answer my shanks question lol

Do you think shanks is gonna end up fighting Luffy

Yeah, but why 🧐 for what reason would make sense

[pure raven]

luffy fights shanks with fists ? 🧐

[stark star]

I posted a long post on the subreddit for discussion on this and it got no love. Thought of the scenario being complex and shanks seeming like a really good guy with some corruption under him that leads to a really bittersweet fight

All just an idea more than a theory. All they've shown of shanks has been him being an awesome dude tho so I doubt it. We just haven't heard of him doing good, you know? We see all this stuff ace did in the world. He was obviously great

Shanks has just kinda showed up and pulled out his giant dick like several times. That's all lol and his arm with Luffy

But also what if luffys fruit is actually special lol could be justified to be more of a reason why shanks saved him

Yeah but WHY would he need to

[pure raven]

ben beckman is a marksman or does he use his fists ?

[stark star]

Wouldn't it be crazy if Usopps meets his dad and he ends up just being a dick lol

[sharp stump]

he already have a dick nose

[stark star]

We really don't know anything about them. What if shanks got involved in dark business or something. He's a Yonkou like aren't all emporers involved in some business?

[pure raven]

ussop should fight yassop for leaving his mom

[stark star]

I imagine shanks is big in some country and hopefully we go there

I really like this scenario I came up with and if the story ends up being any less intense than Luffy kicking shanks in the face while crying I will be sad

[stark star]

That sounds more in character for ussopp

[pure raven]

the giants are supposed to be proud and brave, dont think they are under protection

[stark star]

I just like the idea of Luffy living a whole life in the pirate world. He's met so many people and saved so many lives so him realizing shanks isn't the guy he thought he was would be insane

[sharp stump]

yeah very predicatble

[stark star]

I remember some random post on the subreddit comparing shanks to Yakuza for some reason. It would be cool if shanks was running like edo era Yakuza japan

[pure raven]

shanks crew fights luffy crew to test if they are worth to obtain the one peice

[stark star]

How would this not be good because shanks likes Luffy lol. That's why it would be good

It would be a tragic antagonist, and the underworld sounds like gangster to me bro

I just think all Yonkou probably have some shady industry under them. It seems to be the way. Bruh he steps right into the government and chats with gorosei

This is just an idea really , I think the more likely path would be shanks being a force that helps in a bit battle inguess

But they all line up so well, give a reason for luffys crew to fight shank's crew WHILE shanks is just a great fucking guy lol

[fading sierra]

I think shanks has a more peacekeeper dynamic so maybe he fights luffy for the sake of keeping the balance but doesnt really want to

[stark star]

Either that or shanks crew will train each strawhat bruh why else is there such a. Perfect small crew lol

[fading sierra]

But also being able to talk to the gorosei is sus af

[stark star]

See pushin, glad you said that. That's literally the path of the tragedy would stem from b

[abstract pond]

Shanks lost an arm for Luffy and said he was betting on him. I don't see them fighting unles Shanks wants to test him or something like that.

[fading sierra]

Yus

[stark star]

Because his corruption is gonna stem from 'peacekeeping' and doing actions that lead to the easiest path

And Luffy being Luffy and the true pirate king is gonna see this and have a different objection to this moral approach

[fading sierra]

He has to keep Im at bay and considering she wants luffy die hes gonna try so weird shit and may have to fight luffy as a way of protecting him

[stark star]

Does that make sense? This is all just a what if but I like to think I know how to write tragedy

[fading sierra]

Yh they clash ideologically or luffy is shortsighted because he has no idea about shanks involvement with the gorosei

[stark star]

Like think of this cliff and pushin, is dragon a good guy too?

[fading sierra]

Hes like erwin

[stark star]

And enel is gonna help too? And luffys whole fleet? How big is this battle gonna be lol

Some of these people gotta drop

[fading sierra]

Icl i have a really far out idea that enels gonna try to steal a poneglyph and go back to the moon. Also oda has a weird tendency of not killing off characters so idk

[stark star]

I think enel is gonna save luffys ass with a robot army and I can't wait

Enel robot army is confirmed canon lmfao

[fading sierra]

I dont think enel really has a motive to save luffy tho

He proly hates him because he destroyed his ego and pride

[stark star]

Yeah idk luffys like Naruto, everyone who's ass he kicks ends up being his friend

[fading sierra]

Or maybe he learns humility and somehow he wants to help him idk

[fading sierra]

Not rlly

[stark star]

I'd be surprised by that bruh it's a shonen lol Luffy knocked friendship into him

I guess you aren't wrong, did arlong die? Lol

[fading sierra]

I acc dont know what happened to arlong he proly sushi or sum shit

[stark star]

I rewatched it and I'm pretty sure he died lmao they don't mention anything but I'd say it's very possible

It seems implied

[fading sierra]

I hope so too many loose ends they just need to kill more especially kiku she shud of jus died

[stark star]

Is kiku the samurai girl?

[fading sierra]

It ruins tension and just add unnecessary complexity unless they like all stack up over time and bites luffy in the ass yh the samurai girl

[stark star]

Yeah it seems a little stretched that she's still there. What kinemon did made me sick lol

I only care about animes about pirates and pirate accessories, also jojo's adventure

[loud kettle]

what if shanks is allied with the WG and sabo was killed by him during reverie?

[stark star]

Bruh if they made shanks do something actually unforgivable I think it would just make me uncomfortable. Lol

I think you can really look at shanks walking in on the gorosei in two ways. He's extremely badass and just shows up wherever the fuck he wants, or he's involved with them for something they both get out of it.

[sharp stump]

lol there is literally no reason for oda to kill of sabo when he already killed ace for character development

[stark star]

Maybe shanks does them favors in return for literally anything the government can give

[stark star]

I agree. It was so weird when they announced what happened to sabo like wtf

Did the news paper say he was dead? I can't remember

[sharp stump]

yes

but most likely a coverup maybe scared of another war

[stark star]

Those episodes were incredible. Such good animations and the morrigsns are so cool

But I think it was very clear that they refused to cover up a story right?

[sharp stump]

yeah the director was so god like

[sharp stump]

the director also directed queen concert

[stark star]

If sabo was dead it would have to be a huge huge reveal and a twist

[abstract pond]

Did they? I remembering that Oda left it unclear and we just saw his friends and so crying while reading it but without showing what it was written

[stark star]

And I wouldn't give the director that much credit. It's obvious they took every bit of budget they had and put it all on those two fucking episodes. Or was it one.

I was sitting there complaining about the animation quality to my gf and that episode came on and I was like wtf?

This is why I love one piece. Toei could do it! Made me upset lol

[sharp stump]

didnt ivankov said that "there is no way sabo died" the newspaper most likely shown that sabo died and dragon also said "we first need to confirm the fact"

[stark star]

When did shanks talk to the gorosei

[sharp stump]

plus when morgans saw the news he said "the death of someone" it may not be accurate i forgot the full sentence since its just from memory

[stark star]

When exactly did that happen

Also didn't someone show up from wg to get that story covered up

[ashen surge]

And he was beaten

[sharp stump]

957

[stark star]

Nah like what was happening in the world at the time, was it pretty random?

[sharp stump]

no didnt you see sabo and his other comrades spy the reverie

[stark star]

So are we speculating that the government supplied fake news to stop a way and went on to try to further convince the morrigsns they wanted it covered up?

And did shanks talk to gorosei when they were spying at the reverie?

[sharp stump]

might so but the goverment pressed on saying not to leak the matters

[stark star]

I didn't remember those happening at the same time

[sharp stump]

just reread the manga then

[abstract pond]

I just watched it and first there is people of Alabasta crying and Ivankov says something like "no way Sabo..."
The death announced in the newspaper could be King Cobra or Vivi.

[sharp stump]

kaido isnt in it right?

since he was just an apprentice back rocks crew

since kaidos prime is current time

same as big mom

but i guess it doesn't really matter maybe

what is it?

btw there was a theory that shown who joy boy was

it was foreshadowed way back from thriller bark

[karmic fjord]

when is chapter 1038 releasing??

[sharp stump]

it was said that oars the first was joy boy

[sharp stump]

friday i think

[karmic fjord]

thx

[sharp stump]

Thursday would probably show the raw

oars was first shown in a freezer and the strawhat was shown in a freezer, geckomoria holds luffy heading to oars and Imu holds luffys poster heading to the strawhat

and also the first thing oars did after getting luffys soul was finding a hat

[slim moat]

Why post it here? We have like 2 regular channels to post something like this. Others may enjoy it.

[uneven meteor]

Okey sorry

[sharp stump]

hanuman theory is much better than sun wukong

Hanuman (/ˈhʌnʊˌmɑːn/; Sanskrit: हनुमान्, IAST: Hanumān)[6] is a Hindu god and divine vanara (monkey) companion of the god Rama. Hanuman is one of the central characters of the Hindu epic Ramayana. He is an ardent devotee of Rama and one of the chiranjivis. Hanuman is also son of the wind-god Vayu, who in several stories played a direct role in Hanuman's birth.[5][7] Hanuman is mentioned in several other texts, such as the epic

[slim moat]

Both are same.

[split glacier]

Or maybe Luffy is just a rubberman

[sharp stump]

hanuman father is also a wind god

who knows but all i know is oda loves relating one piece to mythical stories

[split glacier]

Or maybe he's just rubber

[primal cargo]

Ah yes. What fond memories I have from Enies Lobby when Luffy demonstrated abilities that couldn't be explained by him being rubber

Look you don't need everyone to agree with you. You have argued your theory at length, some of us aren't convinced by your points. Call it a day

You have argued the theory that Luffy is not rubber ? Doesn't matter everyone is aware of what you think, you don't have to keep saying it is all

[split glacier]

Don't worry. This guy is a regular, he'll be back with a different name/account

[copper frost]

Can you elaborate on what those two pieces of evidence are?

Can you redirect me to that? Post a link so that I can see what that is?

[vestal orbit]

Ngl I’d be malding pretty hard if it turned out that his gears aren’t based on rubber’s properties

Less creative, turns the Gorosei into the Five Stooges, too predictable, etc

[twin widget]

yeah honestly i’d love it if luffy’s fruit remained exactly how we thought it’s been, aka turned him into a rubber man

[copper frost]

Better off asking if they're coming out in the other manga channels my dude

[gray creek]

It’s not even closed to confirmed that Sanji is the result of lunarian experimentation or that Asura is conqueror’s haki.

[inland wave]

asura...three heads...9 swords...spirit visualization...meaning...conqueror's haki!

[slim moat]

I remember someone saying Leo is back in Dressrosa. But I didn't spot him anywhere in that gang bez coverstory.

My earlier 'theory' about Leo and Sai doing something at reverie still holds. Can't believe I got convinced easily by some other argument which has no panel reference.

[pine delta]

would be cool if oda dug into the way that the WG and Emperors operate similarly with how they control territories. would be neat if oda explored how kingdoms too poor to afford WG tribute want to be conquered by emperors. i theorize shanks's territories fall into this group

[primal cargo]

Makes sense

[pure raven]

what if luffy and other pirates are bad guys all along

[copper frost]

I do think that the Emperors rule in very similar ways to that of the WG, especially considering we saw how Big Mom and WG have a similarity and collecting valuables in order for people to live/function in their territory or that specific island to be protected in return. Big Mom requires sweets and the World Government requires the heavenly tribute.

Kaido is the authoritarian tyrant who keeps his territory under check, with Orochi as the Shogun acting as a proxy and a puppet for him while he moves the true strings of Wano and dominates most of the land from Onigashima with the strength of numbers and his massive reach, similar to WG, where Imu being the true authority of the world leading it in a way with the elders acting as a willing front to that unlike Orochi who turned out to be an expendable for Kaido to remove once the time came for his plans to come to fruition.

Blackbeard is about accumulating islands that a previous emperor held, with the knowledge of all the territories he held and believes in forceful acquisition of powers and territory. Islands not ruled by WG have no protection, so the only way we can see protection come to an island that is not under WG control is for it to forcefully come into WG control and having to pay heavenly tribute for protection in return.

The only outlier is Shanks, whose modus operandi in managing territories is unknown at this point.

Adding to that, Whitebeard is the benevolent ruler who grew up on territory not belonging to the WG and didn't pay heavenly tribute to the world government, so he knows the value of protecting his territories because he actually loves the people in that territory or has respect for the rulers and people in that territory, in addition to providing his own birthplace protection by cutting his own pocket

[mint kelp]

Why's Luffy's fruit that important to the world govt.

[pure raven]

cause it’s rare or sun

[fading sierra]

Material for ancient weapon -random idea also i dont think its luffy im jus throwing out ideas

[cyan berry]

technically every fruit is just as rare as each other

there's only one that can be around at a time

[amber oar]

Kaido's is literally the most common DF in the world

[loud sluice]

🤣🤣

[pure raven]

but some are straight up copies making them much worse

[sand light]

Fish Fish model tho....

[pine delta]

enel not knowing what rubber is (or any of the shandians for that matter) could be way more than a gag tbh

[sharp anvil]

A dude was put in prison for not keeping it safe. Same dude goes on to say the fruit has importance.

I think Enel could arguably be a microcosm for the WGs ignorance about this DF

Both believe that they were safely in control and power until met with these circumstances

[cyan berry]

Exactly, think of how many types of fish there are in the world

[twin widget]

I mean of course they don’t know what rubber is, they live in the sky

[muted ember]

Kozaburo was probably in the Rocks Pirates. It seems like every influential pirate from back then was besides Roger

Rocks probably wanted Roger to work with him

[white basin]

Alright I got redirected here lol. So I’ve been wondering for the last week or so why this specific member of the Gorosei seems to be out of the loop? We dont know the age of the individual members of the Gorosei, and there’s a ton of theories that revolve around “Bonney is valuable because she makes them immortal/Law’s fruit has been used to make them all immortal,” but if that were the case why would he be saying “…the world government” instead of we?

Doesn’t this exchange imply that the current Gorosei weren’t alive during the time that the WG reclassified this fruit?

Though its pure speculation how old the reclassification of the mystery fruit actually is. But the way they're talking here confirms that they weren't around for whatever event prompted the reclassification. Also the "Even to us" bit implies that they believe themselves to be fully knowledgeable about the world and its history, but the fact that they're surprised implies that not only was the fruit reclassified, but they thought they were safe from it awakening.

If the fruit was renamed 800 years ago, surely the people in power would have been aware that a suitably strong person might come along and awaken it right? I doubt that if the fruit is THAT detrimental to the balance of things that they'd leave it just lying around. I feel like their surprise implies that they thought they had secured the fruit in some way.

And before anyone jumps to the "Marines were escorting the Gomu Gomu no Mi but Shanks robbed it," Whos Who was imprisoned for his failure to guard the fruit. If the Gorosei were worried about Luffy's fruit, then they did a horrible job acting on that fear. Of all people, Shanks would be strong enough to awaken that devil fruit. If it's this all powerful secret OP fruit, I doubt they'd have left Shanks to his own devices with it, even back then.

It wouldn't be Law either, as they were equally aware of it being out of their hands more than 20 years ago now. I think the argument that it's Tama's fruit is strongest, as the "Dango Dango" title just feels off. I also feel like if they're going to go the route of "Fruits have taken on different names whether for cover-up purposes or otherwise," then certain fruits that feel very human in origin might be explained better this way. Sugar's fruit could instead of the Hobby Hobby fruit, just be a sort of Polymorph fruit or something. That the fruit's actual power is to transform people into anything, except that it was catalogued and written as the Hobby Hobby fruit, so anyone who uses it and identifies it would naturally limit themselves on accident.

The idea that devil fruits are manmade may or may not fit into this concept.

[wet perch]

Could an awakened Dango devil fruit allow for the creation of devil fruits?

[sand sail]

Kozaburo probably wasn't a pirate at all

[white basin]

The theories that link Tama's devil fruit to being the last ancient weapon makes a little bit of sense in that all 3 of the ancient weapons have followed this theme of mass destruction at human/human-adjacent direction

But it feels too out of nowhere and curveball-y to run with

[sand sail]

Tama's fruit doesn't really make sense, CP0 doesn't know she has it or that she can control animals

All they know is she's controlling gifters somehow

[white basin]

Maybe the Gorosei are just extrapolating the presence of the fruit from the sudden allegiance changes by the gifters? They have to be aware of the animalistic qualities that Smile users have, maybe they've connected the dots?

[wet perch]

Has it been said that she can only control zoan users and not paramecia and logia? What if her power is deeper than animal control, but rather it’s devil fruit control

[white basin]

Well no one has tried lol

[modest skiff]

Couple things are unclear that make it hard to say:

1. Whether they mean "awaken" as in devil fruit awakening or just the fruit resurfacing. Most people, such as @sturdy hound have said it likely means awakening in the sense of the user gaining a new capability

2. Centuries could mean basically any amount of time. The implication is that the history of the fruit was covered up prior to their ruling of the world. So all that means is that they are younger than the hidden knowledge. They could be "normal" aged, or even 800 years old. But all we know is that the knowledge was hidden earlier than the Gorosei's ruling.

3. In this panel, are they being told/realizing a fruit they've known about for a long time, is actually ANOTHER fruit that they have only heard legends about? This would mean it could be basically any fruit with a weird name. Robin and Tama's fruits both most easily fall into this category. Tama's feels the most obvious. I think the theory that it is actually a moon fruit rather than dango makes a lot of sense.

I agree it feels unlikely to be Law/Luffy/Kid, since they have been in the mix of things for a long time. But if this is the Gorosei only now realizing a fruit that they've known about for a long time is actually some legendary fruit, it opens things up a lot. I think we plain and simply don't have enough info to say anything intelligent other than it likely has something to do with Zunesha. The placement of Zunesha makes it seem to hint it is related to Zunesha. Tama's fruit makes the most sense to me since it is conceivable her fruit has been hidden away in Wano for a long time before Tama ate it. I like the theory that Hitetsu had it hidden and she found it and ate it due to being hungry.

If CP0 told people about Tama controlling gifters, it could be that an extremely small number of fruits could ever do something like that. I can't think of any other fruits that control people so directly. If it is essentially a mind control fruit, that is very distinct and is worth reporting. So if the idea of some devil fruit that allows the user to control a bunch of mythical beasts (like Zunesha) and perhaps also induce Sulong at will (If it is a moon fruit) exists, that is clearly very threatening. Maybe there are other creatures on the scale of Zunesha already out in the world that we just don't know about yet. One of my theories is that there is a bird that has a size similar to Zunesha somewhere in the upper realms of the sky, even above skypiea

[sharp anvil]

This is what I think the awakening would be if it is Tama. Either control Zoans only or slave fruit.

[white basin]

But I think it's implied through the initial demonstration that her devil fruit allows control of beasts, and that the unique weakness of the Smile's beastly qualities allows it to work on her as well.

[sharp anvil]

It could be the maturity of the user.

Kind of a turning point in her development when she shouted to the gifters.

Still don't think it is Tama lol

[muted ember]

He left Wano 50 years ago and Shimotsuki Village was founded by pirates

[mint kelp]

The fact that Tama could control Zenusha with her fruit's ability is actually scaring me

[cyan berry]

she probably cant

[muted ember]

So 38 years ago he was outside Wano doing something and he just happened to retire in a village founded by pirates. I don't think it's a coincidence

[sand sail]

The kids think it was, Kozaburo was just a samurai as far as we can tell. He'd be a "pirate" just by virtue of being a Wano criminal on the sea, maybe

[white basin]

Nowhere on the wiki does it say it was founded by pirates, the story is that he saved the village from bandits and they named the village after him. Also, 55 years ago, Big Mom was 13, and other members of Rocks weren't old enough to be the big names they carried during the crew's foundation.

[sand sail]

Shimotsuki village was founded 55 years ago, a good deal before the Rocks pirates were formed

[mint kelp]

But what if she awakens it, isn't every fruit have an awakening just like how doflamingo stated?

[cyan berry]

no

and awakening does not work like that

it does not just magically give you a boost to your base abilities

[white basin]

55 years ago? not 38. 38 years ago he was there in the village.

[cyan berry]

every awakening we've seen thus far has given users an entirely new ability they could use at a cost to their stamina

[sand sail]

She can't control zoan users

She can control gifters

[cyan berry]

Tama might not have an awakening due to how simplistic her abilitiy is in the first place

[sand sail]

Yes, so the village couldn't have been founded by pirates

[cyan berry]

and the same might apply to Luffy

[muted ember]

Yea but Rocks recruited other notable pirates. Like Big Mom became a pirate 63 years ago but joined Rocks

[sand sail]

Kozaburo wasn't a notable pirate

That's the keyword there

[muted ember]

We don't know that

[sand sail]

There's nothing about him or his life that's suggested he's been notable for anything but his skill in swordmaking

[white basin]

Kozaburo wasn't a pirate. The timeline LITERALLY doesn't line up. He left at 55, and saved Shimotsuki village and had a son 4 years later. He never left the village after. He had a child to raise.

[sand sail]

There's no reason for Xebec to have tried to recruit someone who stayed in the East Blue

[muted ember]

Didn't he say the government was looking for him?

[mint kelp]

Then what's Zenusha doing near Wano? What if Tama already controlled it? But Momonoski calling it could be too

[sand sail]

How could Tama have possibly already controlled it?

[cyan berry]

we know that Momo is the only person alive that can both hear and talk to Zunesha

[sharp anvil]

I think he's just picking up his sulong buddies

[cyan berry]

It might have sensed his distress and came

or he told it to come at a certain time

[muted ember]

They put a bounty on him just for being a samurai?

[sharp anvil]

Just following his orders.

[cyan berry]

Momo stayed on Zou for a while before coming to Wano

[sand sail]

Did they put a bounty on him at all?

[mint kelp]

Istg Oda keeps bringing out more secrets instead of explaining them

[muted ember]

He said the Marines were looking for him

[modest skiff]

She can control animals. Why not Zunesha?

[cyan berry]

there's a pretty major difference between all the animals on Wano and something like Zunesha

[mint kelp]

Wait what if Tama has the ability to control the ancient weapons

[primal cargo]

I can confirm that they were using the proper word for "Awakening" with the quotes

CP0 heard someone say "people who ate my Kibi Dango, change sides now" that's plenty to extrapolate from to single out the right fruit. Plus the Elders aren't positive, they're only talking about a possibility

[cyan berry]

not even counting the fact that Zunesha might have a semblance of sentience

[pure raven]

Idk what if zunesha isn't even an animal I mean on the last chapter the 5 guys where talking abt a df

[muted ember]

CP0 did hear it bc it went through the Mary's

[white basin]

Yes he did. That's pretty much the only weight given to the theory that he was a pirate of some kind. But Rocks wasn't raised to infamy yet. We don't even know Rocks' age at death. The Rocks Pirates hadn't become truly infamous until nearly 10 years late.

[modest skiff]

It isn't clear why there would be a size limitation though Youss. If sentience is a disqualifier, it shouldn't work on gifters. I'm not seeing any reason to assume Zunesha wouldn't be effected

[muted ember]

The village was founded by pirates, that's 2

[mint kelp]

Bro Tama has the ability to control Poseidon

[cyan berry]

I just find it ridiculous that Tama's fruit would work on something like Zunesha

[modest skiff]

What? We have no reason to think this

[cyan berry]

even if she could

Tama could only control one sea king at best

[muted ember]

Yes but Rocks crew had ppl who were already pirates before they formed, like Big Mom

[mint kelp]

Wdym it's litterally a fish

[pure raven]

I don't think she can

[cyan berry]

the rest would kill her pretty easily

and also

Poseidon isnt the Sea Kings

Poseidon is Shirahoshi

[mint kelp]

Thats what i was saying bro

[cyan berry]

She cannot control people

And Fishmen are people

[mint kelp]

Gifters are people too 💀💀

[modest skiff]

They are not fish. They are considered mammals because they birth life young

[white basin]

But the Smile fruits have clearly given them uncontrollable bestial qualities that are simply worked with rather than consciously controlled. They can't even shift forms like a normal zoan.

[cyan berry]

are you really comparing someone like Holdem to Shirahoshi

surely even you can see the difference between the two right

[white basin]

The animals that Gifters have are literally separately sentient beings, Tama gaining control over the animal gives her control over the person by proxy

[mint kelp]

What if Tama's fruit was eaten by someone who's actually strong

[cyan berry]

it wouldnt matter

because her fruit isnt based on strength

[primal cargo]

Hypothesis : there's a matter of size when feeding a Kibi Dango to an animal. The dango has to be proportionately large to the scale of the animal. Meaning a little cheek dango wouldn't be enough to gain control of Zunesha or a Sea King. Then Awakening could be the way to make a Kibi Dango out of something bigger

[cyan berry]

otherwise it wouldnt work on all the gifters

because she's almost certainly weaker than all of them

[modest skiff]

Same size of dango was used for everyone so far, including the giant cat thing they rode on

[muted ember]

I like this it would fit Oda lol

[cyan berry]

she had a giant bag of similar sized kibi dangos

[mint kelp]

Ye but like her controlling gifters could be a low lvl for that fruit

[cyan berry]

and they all worked on the gifers

she can control every living animal on the planet

[modest skiff]

I really just don't see sufficient reason to assume size dependence, or even size limitation, based on what we have seen so far

[cyan berry]

and we've seen how strong some one piece animals are

Luffy spent 2 years training against some of them

Tama could tame them in a minute

[mint kelp]

Then what fruit was the world govt. Talking about

[cyan berry]

we dont know

[primal cargo]

There's nothing to support it really, just a way to make sense of this
Otherwise what's stopping Tama from feeding Dango to Sea Kings and becoming literally better Poseidon ?

[cyan berry]

Oda kept it mysterious for a reason

We aren't supposed to know yet

we can only speculate

[pure raven]

I heard a theory about an Akuma Akuma no mi

[cyan berry]

because Poseidon can summon dozens of sea kings at a time

all of which can be bigger than FMI itself

Tama might be able to tame one of them

but she cannot tame the other dozen that spawns

[primal cargo]

Yeah well a 1 minute trip in the Calm Belt did that too

[cyan berry]

because by the time she tames the single one, her island is already destroyed and sunk

[muted ember]

Maybe her powers can't tame sea kings bc they're always in the sea. Similar to how salt could separate Moriah's shadows from their bodies

[cyan berry]

the sea kings Shirahoshi summoned in the FMI flashback were all bigger than the Calm Belt Sea Kings

[modest skiff]

We don't know. We don't really have any reason to think one way or the other. Poseiden can summon seakings from a great distance and has no reliance on them eating something. Poseiden is defacto better at controlling seakings. But as it stands, no limitation has been given to Tama's power and she has used the same dango on everything.

[primal cargo]

There has to be something. Otherwise all it takes for Tama to surpass Poseidon is a little planning and a little patience

[cyan berry]

you are severely overestimating Tama and severely underestimating Poseidon

[modest skiff]

I think that's a stretch. "A little" is not true. As youss pointed out, each seaking controlled by Shirahoshi could level an island easily

[cyan berry]

Poseidon alone can summons dozens, if not hundreds of gigantic Sea Kings to just absolutely level an island and everything on it

[mint kelp]

I still believe that world govt are worried about Tama's fruit because she's able to control Zenusha, because it's litterally an animal just like every animal she controlled as well as the gifters

[primal cargo]

Well that's the thing, what property of Tama's power am I overestimating ? The number of beasts she can control at once ? The maximum size allowed for an animal to be controlled ?

[cyan berry]

Tama has to manually feed her dangos to an animal to tame it

or have someone throw it into their mouths i guess

but do you really think Tama (or anyone) can accurately throw hundreds of tiny dango into hundreds of giant sea king's mouths before they're leveled?

[sharp anvil]

Usopp can

[mint kelp]

Bro what if her awakening fruit got a better ability then the dango?

[primal cargo]

That's nothing but logistics. If you own the Kibi-Kibi fruit and know that's it could technically gain control of all the Sea Kings, you could for sure assemble the resources to make that happen

[cyan berry]

okay this is going nowhere and you're clearly not even attempting to figure out what i am saying

so ill just hop out now

[primal cargo]

? Sure

[pure raven]

Is there a chapter this week?

31 jan

I think

[white basin]

If you scroll up we already managed to eliminate certain possibilities.

It either can't be Luffy/Law/Kidd because their fruits have been known, demonstrated, used against the WG, and the WG had previously known the whereabouts of the Law and Luffy's, knowingly LOST them, and then watched them reappear years later.

OR, big or here, the Gorosei are even MORE out of the loop than we think, and even THEY weren't aware that this "legendary fruit" was the same as this mystery fruit until they connected the dots.

I'm biased towards the first one. For multiple reasons, I think that the Gorosei are either not immortal, or this fruit was reclassified before the WG came into power. Problem with the second point is that they clearly say the WG was the one to rename and hide the fruit, putting the earliest point for the reclassification at 800 years ago, right at the founding of the WG. This implies that the Gorosei that are here now weren't around back then, further implying that they aren't immortal at all, and the position of Gorosei may be an inherited role of figurhead among the highest nobility within in the World Nobles. Imu is the only likely candidate for being truly immortal in terms of eternal youth.

As a sidenote, this fits very well with the themes of Inherited Will. No one is truly immortal, but the ideals of their predecessors live on in those that follow. Imu is the contradiction to this, the one who sits atop the world and looks down, and even those directly below them, the Gorosei, are forced to inherit the will of those who came before them, dutifully serving this individual who has broken the cycle of mortality.

[pure raven]

There should be 3 before the next break

[sharp anvil]

Still don't understand how it can't be Luffy with the question of renaming the fruit.

[sand sail]

@pure raven This isn't really the channel for that, you can talk about it in #manga or #also-manga

[pure raven]

Yeah ik I was just asking a simple question.

[sand sail]

It can't be Luffy because Luffy's infamous around the world

Renaming or not, they'd know his fruit

[sharp anvil]

Yeah but they 100% could think he is too stupid to find its true meaning

We've seen Law and Kidd

[sand sail]

That is 100% not a thing they'd be thinking about for it, lol

[pure raven]

Laws df is already proclaimed from the govt to be extremely important. It's value is literally 5 bill +

[sharp anvil]

Rubber is pretty lame and they seem not to care until right now

[spice grove]

no, they recognized him as a potential threat back in east blue. that 30 million berry bounty seemed crazy back then but they rationalized it by saying he's going to be a major threat in the future if they dont capture him early

[sharp anvil]

For example the past user could have been Rouge and she was like wtf am I supposed to do have a baby for a long time

[pure raven]

Couldn't Zunisha be a fruit user?

Ye maybe

Or wait if no then how is he walkin on the water

[sharp anvil]

I don't think it's Luffy anyway lol I just think there is a funny argument there

[cyan berry]

Zunesha has very long legs

only it's knees are submerged

the rest of its body is above the water

[pure raven]

Oh ok

[cyan berry]

so it shouldnt be weakened

[primal cargo]

Continuing my point.
Imagine something like a country, or the WG, comes in possession of the Kibi-Kibi fruit and they're aware of its capabilities. Assuming those capabilities are "control of any animals that eat a Kibi Dango with no limitations"
Surely they could assemble a fleet, prepare thousands of Kibi Dango in advance, sail for the Calm Belt and shoot dango in the Sea Kings' mouths with slingshots or some weaponry of that nature ? There would be casualties, but it would be well worth it wouldn't it ? And not even that much if you consider that the second a Sea Kings has absorbed one Dango they would stop attacking and turn to your side.
The point I'm getting at is that this scenario isn't that far-fetched, and therefore there should be some property of the fruit that prevents that from being possible. Something like a size limit but it could be something else entirely.

[white basin]

The Gorosei express surprise at this fruit's awakening. Regardless of how you interpret Awakening, it makes no sense for the Gorosei to express surprise at this fruit's "awakening" in the sense of existence, or "Awakening" in the sense of power progression.

Also, their surprise and worry implies that this fruit has dangerous implications for the balance of the world. Luffy's fruit was taken from a Marine ship by Shanks. Whos Who was imprisoned for his failure to guard this fruit. The Gorosei would obviously have known of this entire debacle. If the point you make of "Luffy is too stupid" is what's given them security, then what security could they have drawn from Shanks? They respect him now, and it's implied that he's always been a feared and powerful pirate. There's no way for the Gomu Gomu no Mi to be the mystery fruit in question.

It's not clearly stated, but good writing doesn't require clearly stated information. The characters of the Gorosei have been built up as infallible and all knowing. For them to show surprise indicates that the rug has been pulled from under them. They didn't expect this fruit to awaken. Depending on the interpretation of the word awaken, that could mean different things, but one conclusion we can definitely draw from either is that it CANNOT be Law or Luffy's fruit.

[sharp anvil]

That seems like something that needs a nerf lol Salmy

Like they go bad over time

[mint kelp]

What if the WG is worried about Gomu-Gomu no mi true power?? What if it's previous user had different powers then stretching, and the WG didn't know about it before because it's previous user didn't use it like Luffy is using it now?

[sand sail]

There's no property that needs to be had for that

It's entirely possible, but that's possible the same way you could say Aokiji could freeze a path to every island and connect them all in a matter of days if he wanted

[sharp anvil]

They did say that they have been lazy with DF. I also would have to reach to continue my point lol not gonna do that.

[white basin]

Again, that's a massive reach and speculation that doesn't really leave any meaningful discussion. What if the Moon is secretly a massive devil fruit, and a Imu wants to eat it??? There's no real indication of this, and if it happens it happens. But we can't substantiate it, and there's no evidence for or against it.

[sand sail]

Just because that kind of monumental effort can happen, it doesn't mean Poseidon can't take control of them or that it'd be worth even trying, let alone an event of great enough importance to go and change the name of the fruit sense potentially the void century just to hide it from the world

There are far better fruits out there that can cause infinitely worse trouble for the government than the kibi kibi

[pure raven]

Gura Gura no mi and Ope Ope no mi and Gora Gora no mi can be considered

[white basin]

It can't be either, as the WG has been acutely aware of the first for decades, and was equally aware and interested in acquiring Law's fruit. Assuming you mean Enel's fruit? Goro Goro no mi? They aren't even aware that someone has eaten that fruit.

[pure raven]

No I meant that they are worse for WG than Kibi

[white basin]

Ah

[muted ember]

I went and got the panels for evidence that Kozaburo was a pirate I feel like it's not a big leap from there to the Rocks Pirates

[primal cargo]

Guess you're right. I'm left wondering then what's so special about the Ancient Weapons ?
I think the thing that bothers me with this Tama situation is that the two powers are so easily comparable. Yet for some reason Poseidon gets to be called an Ancient Weapon ?
Is it just because it can summon Sea Kings very fast ?

[sand sail]

They're all powerful enough to destroy the world as the World Government knows it

[pure raven]

I think it could be Zunishas fruit. Zunisha has been hidden from the world for practically a long time and even the beast pirates needed a vivre card to locate it. I can't remotely assume where Zunishas origin may have been etc.

[sand sail]

Their powers are hardly comparable, you'd need a campaign and a lot of time to get Tama's powers to be able to do what Poseidon can do from birth

[pure raven]

Also iirc didn't Doffy state that the Ope Ope no mi is the only fruit that can access something the government has?

[sand sail]

No, just that with it he'd be able to use what he already knew the government had to take over

[pure raven]

Yes but he made it seem that the object is immense and very powerful since only the ope ope no mi can allow access?

[muted ember]

The government knew about Zunesha bc they know about Minks

[sand sail]

Not that it can allow access, it's that he needed both in conjunction. The personality swapping and the eternal youth surgery on top of what he knew about the Celestial Dragons would make Doflamingo the king of the world

The government knew about maybe Zou since they know about minks, doesn't necessarily mean they know about Zunesha

Or that particular person would know about Zunesha

[white basin]

I think the main point people need to consider is that for devil fruits that have a history of being catalogued and put in the spotlight by pirates or the WG, you're gonna have to come up with a VERY good reason for that specific fruit to be the one surprising the guys who literally know everything.

The best evidence for it being Tama's fruit is the disqualification that comes with the Gorosei's surprise. For them to be worried and caught off guard, this fruit has to have been locked away in a land that they don't have eyes in. CP0 hasn't had to deal with Orochi directly until now, so they wouldn't have had any information gatherers in the country.

We also know that Devil Fruits move to the nearest compatible fruit. Wano is massive, and has a stratified climate system due to how the land was literally created from 5 different islands by Oars. A Devil fruit that dies in Wano likely respawns in Wano. The Kibi Kibi no mi isn't the ONLY fruit that Wano natives have eaten, but it's certainly the one with the most potential to be a fruit with hidden properties.

[pure raven]

"Treasure of Mariejois" I assume it's either the immortality or the weapons they hold. But the context he used the statement in seems like the object is of extreme value that will tip the power balance towards him and he would be able to rule the world.

[primal cargo]

The Ancient Weapons are so important that they're still relevant 800 years after their creation. My convoluted plan with the Kibi-Kibi fruit would have taken like a few months, maybe a year. I don't think the argument of time works.
The same thing could be said about Kuzan, Sakazuki, Whitebeard, etc. Their power can change the world, yet they're not Ancient Weapons.
The Ancient Weapons must be special for more than just raw power.
Guess that's the answer to my concern about Tama ? Poseidon must be special because of something else.
The rest is Ancient Weapons theorycrafting

[muted ember]

Kibi is also a region in Wano so if that's not the real name maybe the person who found it just named it from where it was found

[white basin]

This may be the best argument for Devil Fruits as a system being the last Ancient Weapon.

[pure raven]

This was in context to the treasure.

[white basin]

To elaborate, the idea that Ancient Weapons feel diminished because certain devil fruits are literal walking nukes, almost implies that Devil Fruits are the 3rd ancient weapon.

From a Literary standpoint, the weapon named after the Primordial God of Heavens being named Devil Fruits, something that has biblical connotations in layers, feels poetic.

[primal cargo]

That doesn't feel very right to me though. It's pretty anticlimactic isn't it ? Also seeing how specific the Ancient Weapons are, I wouldn't expect Uranus to be something this broad.

The Ancient Weapons seem to have been created each for a specific purpose. I don't think I can find a common purpose for the Kilo-Kilo fruit and the Art-Art fruit

[cyan berry]

thats the gamble with devil fruits

one person might find a devil fruit to help with their day to day life

and another person might be cursed with a power he will never use for the rest of his life

[primal cargo]

Meant the Ancient Weapons

[cyan berry]

the what

[pure raven]

He means that the AW have been created with an idea in mind and that some fruits seem useless etc.

[cyan berry]

what is the AW

[ancient vault]

Ancient weapons bruh

[cyan berry]

oh

this it the first time ive ever seen anyone abbreviate it

[primal cargo]

First time I did it tbh

[white basin]

The story hasn't exactly been building to a climax around the Ancient Weapons though has it? Before we knew they were a thing, we stumbled on them on accident. They've never been pursued by Luffy, and they've pretty much just been coincidental in their involvement or mention. Uranus hasn't been relevant because no one has found it or gone after it yet.

Also, I think the best argument both for and against devil fruits as a human creation, and I mean in the sense of each individual one imbued with power, is that it implies a lack of technological advancement over the course of 800 years, and it also implies a some sense of intended use. If they individually crafted each devil fruit, then it must have been with purpose.

Instead, what I think happened, is that whoever created the Ancient Weapons did so with a purpose. We aren't even sure if Poseidon was created or is simply an innate ability passed through royal blood. If the Royal line is severed is Poseidon lost forever? The fact that the Gorosei definitely know of Poseidon's existence and whereabouts, but have done nothing to sever the royal line to that end, implies that Poseidon is not inherited by blood but rather some other mechanism; passage of time being one.

Back on topic, Pluton was a manufactured weapon. Built for the express purpose of mass destruction, we know this was manmade. Pluton's destructive prowess implies creators who were more intelligent and/or technologically advanced than even those of today. We know that the blueprints were handed down through master carpenters of Water 7, so I expect that the talent was always there, and that the technology is what is missing today.

As for Uranus, there's been plenty of theories. The Biblical connotations that Devil Fruits carry has led people to believe that a "World Tree" like Adam may exist as the progenitor for Devil Fruits.

[pure raven]

I believe the WG and the Navy hold a advantage compared to the pirates. It was stated numerous time by top dog pirates like Kaido and BM. I do not doubt that they might have some very dangerous weapon and I would think it could be an AW.

[pure raven]

Can I go after uranus?

[white basin]

In this case, I'd say Uranus being Devil Fruits, or the Devil Fruit's "Tree" is plausible, and it may even be the "secret" that would shake the world to its core.

[pure raven]

This is most likely right. Roger stated that him and his crew were 20 years too early for the One Piece and he also met up with Neptune and talked about his daughter etc. It might be true

[muted ember]

I'm guessing Zunesha, or the ability to control it, is Pluton and Uranus will be some type of giant flying animal

[white basin]

And on the "Secret of Mariejois," I think Doffy's words can be taken to mean one of two things. Either the secret being revealed would shake the entire world by proxy due to various "in-the-know" individuals suddenly capitalizing on knew knowledge; OR the secret would shake the world because any adult would immediately understand the gravity of this secret.

I feel like for it to be the latter, it would have to be something that all people of the world are already familiar with. It can't be something as complex as the truth of the void history, as many people aren't invested in their day to day lives. This secret has to be something that gets the farmers and workmen riled up enough for rebellion and anarchy. It can't be something that only those in the know would be effected by.

[white basin]

We know that Pluton is a ship. Franky and Iceberg both looked at it, and Franky even wanted to build the damn thing.

[pure raven]

Franky the fascist

Pluton has been referred to by men irl as warships in the past too.

Though I used to think it was part of the word Plutonium which is what is used to make Nukes. It could be like that too afaik.

[primal cargo]

I don't follow. You've cited the best argument against Devil Fruits being Uranus, but I don't see how you oppose it.

[white basin]

Its a reference to the early Roman God Pluton who was merged with Hades during Rome's conquest of Greece.

[abstract pond]

Pluton is a battleship or similar. Franky had the blueprints.

[white basin]

I think Devil Fruits being Uranus can be both supported and not by the theory I referenced. It's really about how you personally view the Ancient Weapons, their purpose in the world, and their purpose as literary devices.

[white basin]

also I ran out of room but this message was supposed to be a part of that long message

[pure raven]

Pluto / Pluton yeah, Pluton is also an igneous rock that is formed by magma cooling below the surface of the earth. It could be a battleship and something related to Pluto who is the god of riches and the underworld, essentially Pluton is made up of many combined materials etc. Is there a chance that this Could have been part of the formation of the Red Line?

[primal cargo]

Are you arguing that each Devil Fruit was made individually at a time long past where people could just create a Devil Fruit to accomplish whatever thing they needed to do ?

[white basin]

No I'm saying quite the opposite. I'm saying that it would make literally 0 sense for that to be true, as it would have required an intended purpose for each devil fruit, and it's hard to imagine intended use for some of the more useless fruits.

[pure raven]

Since every ancient weapon is supposedly linked to a greek / roman god. Posiedon, Uranus and Pluton / Pluto. It's also ironic that Neptune is a roman version of the greek god Poseidon.

[primal cargo]

Alright but then what purpose could have possibly required so many completely different and seemingly random fruits ?
Do you think that mysterious purpose required every single one of those fruits to exist ? What possible need could you have for the Art-Art fruit for example ?

[muted ember]

The thing about Pluton is that no one actually knows what it is. Iceberg said the blueprints he had were for an opposing force passed down after the weapon was unleashed. But he also said that only Robin could awaken them and that's not true bc Shirahoshi already had her powers, the poneglyph just told Robin who she was. Technically someone could have learned of her power by chance

[white basin]

I'm also saying that if Devil Fruits were manmade, then they aren't likely to be individually created, but rather than the Devil Fruits as a system were invented and allowed to spread in the world. That Devil Fruits as a system are the ancient weapon, and that their uniqueness and oddly contemporary powers are a symptom of contemporary users.

Things that feel super out of place, like the Art Art fruit, or the Hobby Hobby Fruit, feel like they were created not by a person, but that the fruits were named for what humans observed their effects to be.

[spice grove]

isnt the water 7 "pluton" just blueprtints a potential countermeasure for if the real pluton falls into the wrong hands?

[muted ember]

Yes

[spice grove]

like confirmed right? its not disputable?

[muted ember]

Iceberg said it himself so I would argue its confirmed

[white basin]

Its the blueprints FOR Pluton, in case the surviving ship is used. It's a countermeasure in the same way that everyone has Nukes because if I have Nukes and you have Nukes we can't nuke anyone.

[primal cargo]

As confirmed as it gets. Could always get retconned i guess

[white basin]

Idk If you were implying it wasn't necessarily Pluton's blueprints but rather a weapon that could counter it, but it's stated to be the blueprints for the Ancient Weapon itself.

[spice grove]

see this is different than what i said

[white basin]

Yea that's what I thought lol, figured I'd make sure.

[spice grove]

so you could theoretically build an army of plutons?

[pure raven]

Also each god symbolizes something. Uranus / Ouranus being the first sone of Gaea and the god of the sky, Pluton / Pluto the god of riches and the underworld and Poseidon being the god of the sea and from what we can all see that this kind of lines up with some of the ancient weapons. Iirc the Nefertari were supposedly to become celestial dragons but they refused to leave their kingdoms, Pluto was also distanced and kind of considered an outcast and was sent to the underworld by personal choice i think.

[spice grove]

also, nukes dont cancel out other or neutralize other nukes. they cause double the destruction, which is detrimental for both sides. thats why i strongly disagree with this line of thinking

[primal cargo]

That's pretty strange by the way. If Pluton is a ship with a very powerful cannon for example, why would you need to recreate the entire ship to counter it ? Just take whatever tech is used by the cannon and make yourself some more suitable weapons. I always wondered why Pluton had to be a whole ship

[spice grove]

which is why i think its simply something that can neutralize pluton

[pure raven]

I doubt it's as simple as that.

[primal cargo]

So do I. Whatever makes Pluton special can't just be its destructive capabilities then I'd expect

[spice grove]

if pluton were zunesha, for example, the counter pluton could be like a giant ship with a huge tranquilizer lol. sounds kinda lame but you get the point, the counter pluton wouldnt just be the same offensive power

[pure raven]

@primal cargo

[white basin]

anyways, Perhaps Devil Fruits are a naturally occurring phenomenon, and their abilities are sometimes very confined, and sometimes very abstract. The issue with abstract concepts is that 2 people can interpret the same one very differently. If the first person who ate the Art Art fruit realized they could alter reality to look however they wanted, perhaps they interpreted it through an artistic lens. Thus the Art-Art fruit.

Interestingly, both Giolla and Sugar are confirmed to be required to "choose" the things they create with their fruit. Sugar chooses what toy people turn into, as evidenced by the army of Nutcracker toys she makes. Giolla turned the Swirly Hats into various famous art pieces, all different styles of Art, implying that her fluency in Art styles influenced her use of her powers.

Idk if it makes sense, but I think the abstract powers that don't really make too much sense are only named as such because the first people to witness their use interpreted them as such. It's not like the Fruits come with a name tag on them.

[primal cargo]

Right, but those are just two examples. Even if we only look at the "serious" Devil Fruits, I still can't come close to imagining a common purpose that they would fulfill

[white basin]

Well obviously, MAD is dangerous but its nearly impossible to defuse effectively. The best way to avoid a MAD situation is to never create a weapon of Mass Destruction. But that's what happened. Pluton exists and can destroy an island in one shot. It was hidden away after/during the void century, and the shipwrights of Water 7 decided that the world must have the potential to counter Pluton if it should ever resurface. It's a frankenstein's monster situation as I think it was implied that the shipwrights of Water 7 were the ones who created the original Pluton.

The blueprints exist just in case. Franky recognized that there was only one way for anyone to access the existing Pluton, and he trusted the Straw Hats to save Robin to prevent that.

[primal cargo]

You mean MAD ? That's ancient history !

[spice grove]

LOL

[muted ember]

Iceberg said himself it's a counter measure he never said it was the blueprints for the real Pluton

[spice grove]

"mutually assured destruction"

[spice grove]

i believe they imply both, but i agree with you

[white basin]

It was said multiple times it was the BPs for Pluton. It's why the WG wanted Franky so badly, they wanted to recreate Pluton.

That was the entire motivation for CP9 BEING in Water 7. Their whole mission was to inflitrate until they located the Blueprints

[spice grove]

"so badly" lol his bounty is similar to 8 year old robin lmao

but yes that cp9 thing is true

[primal cargo]

Well he doesn't have them anymore

[white basin]

Keyword "wanted" not wants. During Water 7 they found out Franky had the BPs and went after him relentlessly.

[spice grove]

true, good point

[primal cargo]

Do you mean that Pluton's power comes from its material ? Cause we wouldn't need blueprints for that

[muted ember]

CP9 didn't have the blueprints nor can they read the poneglyphs so it's possible they don't understand the nature of the blueprints

[spice grove]

but i still dont think the counter pluton idea makes sense with this. sure the government said they wanna recreate it, but they dont know whats on the actual blueprints (which means their desire for the blueprints doesnt confirm that its the same thing). plus, having a separate battleship cannon thing and threatening the world government wouldnt prevent MAD at all, they'll do anything to hold onto power

[white basin]

Idk how I feel about Manmade vs naturally occurring devil fruits, but I think that their existence implies some greater mechanics. They're too convenient to be naturally occurring in nature, so I think some mechanism was invented to alter the lineage factor of a person, imbue an effect into a person by using this, and then create a cycle of reincarnation for the power system.

Perhaps Uranus was a Tree which all Devil Fruits reappeared at naturally, but was destroyed causing them to be difficult to consolidate. That's a bit of a reach, though I think the various biblical connotations support a tree which bears the "Devil's Fruit".

[sharp anvil]

Not necessarily the blueprints would also say the materials needed

I think Uranus is possibly the base Enel is at

He is the sky God afterall

[white basin]

Idk if you fully get what MAD entails, but the purpose is to cause a stalemate. If the WG has Pluton, and intends to use it to subjugate the world, then an opposing power who also has Pluton would be able to threaten the WG equally. If the opposing power were rogue, with nothing to lose, then the WG would be forced to sacrifice their Pluton to destroy the opposing one. If the opposing force is a nation or state, then the WG and said Nation would be caught in a standoff, effectively unable to act against each other.

In either situation, having 2 Plutons opposing each other guarantees destruction of the weapons themselves, or it gurantees the stalemate that MAD implies.

[spice grove]

you're assuming the world government isnt willing to fire first, but i think they are. i know what MAD is

[primal cargo]

I just don't think One Piece is the kind of story where "a certain mysterious thing" is revealed to be something we already knew.
I mean Oda wants nothing more than to keep coming up with new things !

[spice grove]

but my guy they're tryna CLEANSE these dudes

[white basin]

Sure, but that leads to the part of MAD that usually forces stalemates. The Mutually assured destruction. If they fire then the other party fires as well, guaranteeing that unless they're firing at each other, destruction will continue until both ships are neutralized.

[spice grove]

i really dont think thats how this situation would play out man. sure a stalemate is how MAD works, but MAD doesn't assume that each person only has ONE nuke, which is why i dont think it applies for this situation. What if one side fires at the other's pluton, for example? MAD is no longer a possibility, regardless of which side does it, right?

[white basin]

Its a stalemate because of how difficult it is to imagine anyone firing.

[primal cargo]

As far as I'm aware, MAD is a thing because there's time to launch your own nukes before you're hit by the incoming nukes

[white basin]

Strategically, you have to fire right? If you don't and they do then you're fucked? Prisoner's dilemma almost. Because of this, the WG is guaranteed to pull the trigger, and anyone competent enough to find or build is going to do the same. Except they'll either be firing at something else or each other. There's no way I would ever take the gamble of firing on anything other than the other nuke ship.

Meaning that if they fire, its at each other. There's no other option.

And think of the destructive power a weapon made to counter the ultimate weapon would have? Why would the Water 7 shipwrights draw up schematics for another weapon of destruction when their whole purpose for safekeeping the BPs is as a potential countermeasure for future evils.

[sharp anvil]

What if the buster call is the closest they can get to Pluton without having Pluton. They did state it is their strongest course of action.

That's talking WG though

[primal cargo]

I do believe with some confidence that there's something special about Pluton as a whole, rather than its weaponry or any other single part of it.

[sharp anvil]

Talking CD who knows they probably have it and used it at gods valley

I do like thinking about Dragon having one though

[spice grove]

is being a giant elephant special 🤡

if sanjuan wolf can be considered a battleship im sure zunesha could as well

[white basin]

I'm positive that its unrivaled destructive power is coupled with unrivaled structural integrity lol

[white basin]

Its an Epithet lol, idk if ur joking or not

[pure raven]

As I told you. The god Pluto is the god of riches etc, he can manipulate these "riches" that are essentially underground gems and elements etc. The shit part I am unsure about but I doubt anyone that has the skills to build Pluton, I would say something special must be present or smt.

[sharp anvil]

Based on what you said I'd assume aokiji

[spice grove]

i know his is an epithet, but i mean still

[spice grove]

unstoppable force immoveable object lmao

so counter pluton is a shield of sorts?

[white basin]

I think that the lack of importance given to AW is on purpose and not indicative of some hidden strength that they all have. They are all incredibly damaging, and if you're thinking "But what about all these devil fruits" all I can say is that Akainu can't be everywhere. He can't be at G8, G5, G1, and Marineford all at the same time. If Poseidon orders these mega sized Sea Kings to destroy marine bases, then the WG will be spread pretty thin. Especially because weapons are never relied on as the only answer. There will always be feet on the ground. If these crazy Devil Fruits were the answer to any great threat, then Whitebeard never would have been able to destroy Marineford.

The destructive power of Pluton, of Poseidon, and potentially Uranus, is that they invalidate infantry and numbered power. No amount of Marine grunts, even the 100k that were at Marineford, will be able to take on hundreds of supermassive sea kings with the express intent of sinking an island. You'd need people with the destructive power of Akainu, Garp, Kizaru, Fujitora, etc to beat them back, and that would be time spent not fighting the capable fighters who are even more dangerous. They don't really need to be able to one shot logia users, or insta kill Whitebeard/Kaido/Big Mom. They just need to be able to destroy the world, and the majority of the world doesn't have Yonko or Admirals protecting them 24/7

This is all from chapter 399, official translations.

The blueprints are literally titled "Pluton," so idk how much more confirmed it can get that they were just the Blueprints for the weapon itself.

[white basin]

I basically said the same thing. I think that because we have the blueprints, it's not like the shipwrights were just smarter. It must have been a mixture of technology and moral duty that prevented the ship from being recreated

[feral brook]

it was actually just a children's book titled pluton

[spice grove]

i like it

[white basin]

Also, Franky makes a point to show Kaku and Lucci, who served as exceptional Shipwrights for 5 years, the contents of the Blueprints so they could verify its integrity as a blueprints for a ship, and specifically one of great power.

[spice grove]

well i agree that the counter pluton is a ship

[white basin]

Ok, and I'm getting the feeling that it's gonna be impossible to convince you otherwise, but does the fact that it's confirmed to be a ship, and that the blueprints for said ship are titled "Pluton" not lay to rest any suspicions that maybe the Blueprints were for something else ?

If this isn't evidence enough that the blueprints have to be of Pluton simply because anything else would be insufficient to counter the original weapon then idk what is lol

[swift bough]

Wild theory, since the WG wanted to erase that devil fruit from history, and shanks was supposed to show up soon in the next chapters, I know it’s highly unlikely, but how about there is a devil fruit that is not bound to the weaknesses of the others and shanks possesses this devil fruit, he also agreed on keeping it a secret. He has such a high influence on all the yonkos and the WG, could he be that massive elephant?

I know myself how ridicilous this sounds, especially now that I typed it out. But let me know what you think 😅

[spice grove]

no no i think you are misunderstanding my stance

i agree that its proven beyond reasonable doubt that the blueprints franky had were for a giant battleship that could counter the OG pluton

[white basin]

I would turn your attention to the arc of Zou, where we learn that there's a civilization of furries on the back of a giant elephant that has a personality, a history, and is 1000 years old. I'd be very surprised if after all of that we found out that Shanks was secretly Zunesha

[white basin]

The only disagreement we have is whether the blueprints are actually FOR Pluton, which I think you disagree on right?

[spice grove]

whether or not its the blueprints for the exact same pluton that already exists somewhere in the world, or the og pluton, whatever you wanna call it, yes thats what we disagree on

[spice grove]

this is something i could get behind. because they are still different, and the counter is specifically a counter, not just another mega cannon thing that would hopefully force a stalemate

[swift bough]

Yeah I forgot about that 😅 I’m an idiot xD Now that you mention it. Thats it. Could they have moved over to wano to give assistance?

[white basin]

Oh gosh I was being facetious, bro you whole ass forgot about Zunesha???

[swift bough]

I guess I kinda did 🙈🙈

I was too excited about this ridicilous theory 😂

[spice grove]

its confirmed to be debunked, even with convoluted time travel theories shanks is 41 years old and zou has existed for more than the past 41 years

[white basin]

I think you're hung up on the word counter. Nukes don't counter Nukes but they still force a stalemate. Hell, Guns don't counter guns, but if you and another person have guns pointed at each other, its a game of chicken or put the guns down. Counter doesn't imply some achilles heel. The word Counter when used as an adjective means "responding to something of the same kind, especially in opposition." It doesn't mean it is to respond by attacking the weakness, it is to respond in kind to opposition. A counter equals whatever force or opposition is thrown at it.

[spice grove]

its not because of the word counter

[white basin]

So it isn't a ship that is uniquely capable of exploiting a weakness Pluton has. It is literally another Pluton. The whole point of this massive weapon is that it is so imcomparably powerful that only one of the same could effectively nullify it.

And it isn't a defense mechanism either. We've talked about this, but a defense mechanism would only work if it was in the same place. We know Pluton is a battleship. If it was anything other than a BP for Pluton itself, Franky would never have destroyed it. If it was a ship that was uniquely capable of exploiting Pluton, then Franky never would have destroyed the BP. He only destroyed the BP because he was confident it would never be needed, and thus such destructive power need not have multiple access points

[spice grove]

its because if you are right, and pluton is a ship and the counter pluton is the same exact ship, then you could theoretically build an army of them rather than just one. this wouldnt apply if it was meant specifically as a counter.

Also, the context implies that it would be useless unless the enemy has the actual pluton. it never once says that they counter each other, but rather the blueprints counter the actual ship

[white basin]

You're thinking from a perspective that ignores the intent in the safekeeping of the BPs, and the selective inheritance of them. The Water 7 Shipwrights never want to revive the ship, nor build a new one. It's honestly a question of if it's even possible anymore. But that's not the point. They handed the BP down because they felt morally obligated to ensure the world had a chance in case the OG Pluton was ever revived. They NEVER wanted to build it. Hopefully that makes sense, I gotta go for a bit.

[sand sail]

There's no countering going on in general, it's just making the same weapon in case someone found the original. Yes, you could make an entire fleet of Pluton ships potentially, that is a viable danger if blueprints existed

The entire point of not making it is that no one wants something with that much destructive capability to exist at all, let alone to be used by anyone actively ever

[spice grove]

if thats the case, wouldnt they dismantle the old one?

[sand sail]

Or, in other words, 1000 Pluton ships could exist for sure assuming the resources are readily available. But no one wants that many, their very existence is something that is being fought against. That's why it took hundreds of years, presumably, before the government ever even cared to look for them

[spice grove]

so do you guys actually see the mutually assured destruction stalemate as an actual possibility in the show? like some kind of truce or agreement to not use the weapons? personally i dont think it likely

[sand sail]

No, that's the problem that's currently going on. The Emperors want to get the weapons and actively use them, there's guaranteed mutually assured destruction, this doesn't turn into a cold war

Kaido wants a world that's nothing but a war torn, chaotic, blood drenched paradise

[spice grove]

well do you agree that the existence of the counter pluton in the story probably means that an enemy will get their hands on the original pluton at some point?

[sand sail]

Probably, yeh it'll be used at some point I'm sure

[reef sandal]

mutually assured destruction could get real shaky in one piece what with the people as strong as weapons of war who don't have a home to destroy

[white basin]

Im back, so I'll respond to this lol. This assumes it was the Shipwrights who had control of the Ship. The Water 7 Shipwrights built it, and held the blueprints. They weren't the crew of the Pluton, nor were they the nation/power that was controlling it. Whoever was decided to hide it or retire it somewhere in Alabasta, and the Ancient Kingdom/Wano stonemasons created a Poneglyph detailing where to find it.

The Water 7 shipwrights held on to the blueprints because they saw the destruction their creation brought onto the world, and knew that it could only be opposed by itself. They hoped it would never be revived, but they didn't know for sure, so they kept the blueprints just in case.

This is all laid out clearly in the Water 7 saga btw.

[spice grove]

no im not saying now, but like conceptually. back then instead of burying it in alabasta, why not wait to build it until you actually need it? again assuming they are the exact same thing

[spice grove]

so if it will be used, that means the counter pluton failed to do its job of preventing MAD right?

[white basin]

That's the point basically. MAD has two outcomes: Stalemate and Nuclear Winter. The scramble to prevent rogue nation states from acquiring nuclear bombs occurred for a reason, and sanctions against certain nation states exist purely to counter nuclear proliferation in the surrounding regions.

As Bean said, we won't see a Cold War in One Piece, as the only people capable of accessing the weapon Pluton are the Straw Hats, and even if the WG or Kaido got their hands on Robin/Pudding awoke her ability or something, the outcome now that Franky burned the only countermeasure would be annihilation at the hands of Tyrants. The only reason MAD was brought up was because we were discussing whether it was possible the Blueprints for Pluton were instead for a ship designed to counter Pluton, rather than an exact replica.

The disconnect appeared to be in the intent of the Shipwrights who guarded the blueprints, as there was no reason for them to want to bring Pluton back other than to counter the original Pluton should it be brought back.

Also @spice grove That assumes the Shipwrights and the people who used Pluton in the Void Century were on the same side. Perhaps they were forced to build it, or they ended up disagreeing in the long term with how it was used. Perhaps the people who used it intended to access it again, and the Shipwrights' only option was to preserve the knowledge required to counter it should it arise.

[sand sail]

No, that was never its job

[spice grove]

That assumes the Shipwrights and the people who used Pluton in the Void Century were on the same side. Perhaps they were forced to build it, or they ended up disagreeing in the long term with how it was used. Perhaps the people who used it intended to access it again, and the Shipwrights' only option was to preserve the knowledge required to counter it should it arise.

Thats plausible as well. interesting

[sand sail]

Its job was to actively combat Pluton, not be a threat to another user

[reef sandal]

oh i get it, sorry i tried to contribute to a discussion i wasn't caught up on

[spice grove]

@white basin would disagree with you if im understanding his point correctly.

[white basin]

MAD isn't an instant action, its the state of war between superpowers who if they were to escalate past conventional warfare, both would be destroyed due to the nature of their arsenals. Pluton's existence somewhere in Alabasta prompted the Shipwrights to hold on to the blueprints and pass down the moral duty to guard them. They believed, and we should take them at their word, that the only possible way to defeat Pluton was to build another one to counter it.

Whether this results in the destruction of both ships, or if it just results in the ships never being used, or some mixture of mass casualty and mutual destruction, the shipwrights knew the only chance to combat Pluton's use in the future was another one of its kind.

Bean and I are on the same page I think. MAD has nothing to do with taking the opponent down with you. It's a deterrent to nuclear war. It's why we are so scared of the people who have nothing to lose getting ahold of Nuclear weapons.

Of course, it's implied that everyone goes down with the one who fires first, but that's not its purpose.

Its purpose is to prevent any use of Nuclear weapons BECAUSE everyone knows that its the end once they get used.

[spice grove]

so what are you claiming the end result of pluton to be in the story?

[reef sandal]

it seems like in this situation a MAD prompted stalemate could be circumvented because of the nature of many of the high strength combatants
so i think there could be an interesting plotline involving both parties getting it without that resulting in a truce or nuclear winter

[spice grove]

i know exactly what MAD is and what it implies, but i strongly doubt one piece is gonna hype up these 2 gigantic mega powerful battleships only for a stalemate to occur

[white basin]

Honestly? I think it'd be poetic for it to never be unearthed again. Robin is quite literally the only person who can tell anyone where it is, and she has no intention to do so. She already showed her resolve to die instead of allow the weapon to be revived. Alabasta is huge, short of turning the island upside down, Pluton will never be found. The blueprints for Pluton were burned by Franky, and whether he memorized them or not, he also resolved to die to protect them from being replicated. The only two people capable of reviving Pluton have no intention on doing so.

[spice grove]

Honestly? I think it'd be poetic for it to never be unearthed again.

But the reason they buried it rather than dismantling it (in the past) was because it would be needed in the future, no?

[reef sandal]

they could be persuaded to by luffy, and i can see the story reaching a point where he would want to do that

[spice grove]

also this is slightly off topic, but if the world government got their hands on it, where would they want to fire it anyways?

[reef sandal]

i would think it would replace a buster call and be used in wars like there will be soon

[white basin]

and @reef sandal I don't think that Luffy will ever want the weapons. Roger himself said that he had no interest in the ancient weapons, and I doubt Luffy does either. He doesn't want to be super important, nor does he want to be super strong and rule the world, he just wants to be Pirate King, and to him that means freedom.

Robin wouldn't have ever joined Luffy if she thought she'd be asked to revive the weapon, and Franky never would have burned the blueprints if he thought Luffy was the kind of man to want a weapon like that. They both would rather die than see it revived, Robin would likely rather die than become the devil the world accused and executed her people for being.

We don't know for sure who it was that hid Pluton away in Alabasta. On one hand, Alabasta was one of the 20 founding kingdoms of the World Government. On the other hand, the Nefertari family was the only family to not ascend to the status of Celestial Dragons, and so far are the only family who had an express relationship with Poneglyphs. Cobra said that the Nefertari family was tasked with guarding the existence of the Poneglyph as well as the knowledge that Pluton was hidden somewhere in Alabasta.

We don't know what happened in the 100 year gap, we just know that 900 years ago an Ancient Kingdom of great power existed and was allied with Wano and Shandora, and that 800 years later, Wano was closed as a country, Shandora was destroyed and its people left to pick up, and the Ancient Kingdom was wiped out.

All this implies that Alabasta had a secret change of heart/allegiance near the end. Perhaps Pluton was a weapon built by the WG to destroy the Ancient Kingdom? Or perhaps it was a weapon built by the Ancient Kingdom to fight against invading forces. Either way, the Ancient Kingdom's Wano allies placed a Poneglyph with Pluton's location on it, and presumably had a hand in hiding Pluton in Alabasta as well.

[white basin]

Spandam's reason was that the WG would use it to end the Pirate Age once and for all. They would basically just use it as a pirate killer.

Which when u think of the territory the Yonko hold, and the islands they're holed up in, makes sense.

[reef sandal]

the point i could see the story reaching was specifically a more adept strategist needs luffy's help with the war effort and somehow has both luffy's trust and knowledge of what his crew knows

[white basin]

But it still requires Luffy to ask Robin to unearth the weapon, something which Luffy would never do, and which Robin would never do. There's literally decades of character development going into Robin and Luffy's relationship with the Ancient Weapons and power/domination.

All of that character development tells us that Robin would never give up the location of Pluton even IF Luffy asked

[reef sandal]

if i remember right, robin's reason for not unearthing the weapon was apathy rather than determination otherwise

she wants to know the history, not give people she doesn't trust a lot of power

[white basin]

She had no interest in weapons, but the Poneglyph did tell of where it was. If she was apathetic she would have just told Croc and then killed herself. She atleast felt that dying and taking the knowledge with her was better than dying and unleashing a weapon on the world.

[reef sandal]

i think there's a lot of difference concerning whose hands pluton is in, at least for her

[white basin]

And I think that when you contextualize her actions with the backstory we get in Water 7, it's not a stretch to say that she would never tell anyone where the weapons were.

Idk, for me it feels like Robin's character arc has had her come to be comfortable with becoming the Demon that everyone says she is, but she truly has no desire to destroy the world, and I think her goal is to find the true history and tell the world. She's never said it, but clearing the Ohara name is easily tacked on to her dream as a motivation.

[reef sandal]

i think that she doesn't have enough conviction to not have the weapon exist that she would refuse luffy's order based on it, especially if there's a threat of the enemy getting one somehow

[white basin]

I just think that Pluton isn't as much of a Chekhov's Gun as people think. It feels like its there to subvert the usual tropes involved with ancient weapons of mass destruction, and to give some mystery to the world. Maybe we'll end up using it, but similarly to Nuclear weapons, there is no moral right when using these kinds of weapons. It can be pragmatic, but it will never be morally right, and I doubt Oda would have Luffy create such a morally grey atmosphere. Maybe the WG does it, because then it can be framed as ultimate act of Evil! They must be stopped! But that still brings up an issue of powerscaling, and issues of continuity/conflict of character.

What can destroy Pluton? Well the Shipwrights seem to think only another Pluton can. Now we need to recreate this weapon, and either destroy it after or hide it again. If the Ancient Weapon Pluton culminates in "It got used once to create tension and kill a bunch of civilians no one cares about and now it's going to get destroyed by a copy of itself and take said copy down with it" then I think that'd be depressingly predictable

Pluton is better off remaining in the shadows as a relic of history, and nothing more. Using it forces the story to go in a very predictable direction, which I think Oda wants to avoid. He's said before that he's become surprised by the things his characters do, and that sometimes things take longer because he didn't expect his characters to do the things they do. I think he'd hate to have such a predictable plot line with very little room for consistent character interaction.

[reef sandal]

i think there are other ways to make pluton ineffective other than destruction, like sabotage and such

[white basin]

Plus, we've already had the "Ancient Weapon is under threat of being uncovered we have to stop it" plotline twice. And both times the Straw Hats or adjacent individuals have decided to destroy the proverbial map to the weapon instead of see it discovered, even at the cost of their own lives. That plotline has played out 2 times, and its a very common plotline in fantasy.

[cerulean coyote]

Alabasta was the only country on the first half with a poneglyph; therefore, it was considered an ally in the end

[reef sandal]

yeah if they were secretly guarding a poneglyph they are as traitor as the wg says

[white basin]

I think realistically, this would be hard for people to take seriously. I say this only because if Pluton is revived somehow, Franky would be morally obligated to build its counter. This forces Oda to establish that Franky's words here were literally a lie, and it means that not only did the Straw Hats fail to protect Robin, but that Robin told the WG where to find Pluton, something we've already established she won't do!

So, unless all that happens, which would be very bad for the story and characters, Oda would have to write in a 3rd way for an enemy to get Pluton. Either a 2nd copy of Blueprints, which takes the entire arc of Enies Lobby out back and blows its brains out; OR The WG had knowledge of where it was in Alabasta the whole time, which again, takes the entire arc of Enies Lobby out back and blows its brains out.

So lets assume Enies Lobby has been summarily executed. Franky is morally obligated to revive the weapon, and Robin is probably going to feel pressured to do the same if she can. This leads us back to the character problems already mentioned.

[reef sandal]

or
franky is obligated to disassemble this pluton

[white basin]

Basically, it is very hard for Pluton to be effectively used. Its story is done, it's been visited and then RE visited, and we've moved past it. There is no satisfying way for Pluton to be reintroduced into the story

[reef sandal]

that's what i was saying by alternative means, they have basically the best shipwright of their age on their team

[white basin]

This is pretty much the only way I see it, and I don't mind this. But it would be fully post story. No access to the weapon until its time to just tear it down with no one around who would exploit it.

And it would ensure no future conquest of Alabasta in pursuit of this weapon

Because if the goal is to tell everyone the true history, those ancient weapons and their whereabouts are gonna get leaked lol

[reef sandal]

i think it's plausible that they could get to it and get it disassembled before the cavalry came in and stopped them, depending on the situation

so it would be stakes
kinda played out stakes at this point but it could feasibly not be post

[white basin]

It could certainly be a situation where Alabasta is being taken over by the WG and they're secretly excavating for it

I could see Robin telling the crew that they need to go to Alabasta and make sure the WG never finds the weapon

Would open up for some nice character interactions with Robin and Vivi (If she's still alive 🤞 )

[reef sandal]

yeah

[white basin]

We still dont know what the fuck happened at the reverie and I'm very worried

I think Cobra is dead, Vivi was almost killed, and the WG is pinning it on Sabo and planning to execute him.

[reef sandal]

isn't mjosgard like right with them tho?

[cerulean coyote]

Luffy would never go back, visiting the same place is not an adventure.

[raven knoll]

yea ikr

[white basin]

That feels like the most plausible off screen death, mixed with a threat to the Straw Hat's allies, mixed with a call back to Marineford that fits with the Post Timeskip trend of rehashing Pre TS arcs.

[white basin]

He didn't care about adventure to save Ace, I think he's motivated by more than just adventure. He has people he cares about and he's pretty fierce about protecting them. If Luffy thought Vivi was in danger, and Robin told him she wanted to go back because destroying the weapon was important to her, he'd do it. He's saved multiple islands simply because its somewhere his friends care about.

[cerulean coyote]

It is not Robin's dream to save the world.

There is revolutionary army for that...

[white basin]

No but do you really think if Luffy heard that Alabasta was being annexed and that Cobra was killed and Vivi almost killed that he wouldn't go back to Alabasta to help her

its all speculation, so we can go back and forth throwing out specific and perfectly crafted situations

[cerulean coyote]

Why a world noble would bring back a slave to his/her original country from Marijoa?

[white basin]

but I do think from a character standpoint, Luffy cares about his friend's home enough to defend it. If Fishman Island was being besieged he would go back to protect it too.

[cerulean coyote]

Besieged with a ancestral weapon?

[white basin]

Yes? Idk what you mean by that

[ashen surge]

Luffy will come to realize that if everyone is not free, then no one is free

[near osprey]

That seems like a higher level of intelligence from Luffy and I don't see it.

[ashen surge]

Well you can funnel the thought through the fact that Celestial Dragons and WG under it are totalian oppressors that bully his friends

[near osprey]

Thing about Luffy and the Ancient Weapons is they'll naturally fall into his lap he won't outright seek em out but he's already befriended Vivi who's in Alabasta where Pluton is located and Shirahoshi.

Uranus is most likely on Wano and we can already see how much respect they've got for our boy that uranus will also be his.

Luffy'll simply just want to kick the WG ass

Nothing more than that line of thinking cause he's a simple minded dude

[ashen surge]

You said intelligence, sure Luffy is dumb as hell but he has wisdom

[near osprey]

Nah he's good in a fight and reading the situation

He isn't wise his moral compass is just always in the right direction

all he's thinking about is Adventure, Food and Fighting

If he sees some shit that ain't right then he makes it right and moves on.

[ashen surge]

We still don't know the thing he said to sabo and ace

[near osprey]

Probably food related, it was childish enough for Luffy to think of it at what 8 years of age and make Whitebeard cringe

when Roger said it.

But it was enough to inspire Oden and Yamato

Like "I want to eat for free wherever I go"

Or "I want to throw the worlds greatest party"

[spice grove]

Maybe we'll end up using it, but similarly to Nuclear weapons, there is no moral right when using these kinds of weapons.

I mean im sure you've heard the whole "destroy reverse mountain" thing, i dont think that would be considered morally wrong

[reef sandal]

unless people live in it

[spice grove]

thats why i specified reverse mountain and not mariejois/fishman island

also im pretty sure the theme oda is going for is that these "weapons" is that they arent actually weapons. poseidon is a living creature, for example

thats partly why i want to believe that the original pluton is either zunesha or someone with the power to control zunesha

[reef sandal]

why are there blueprints for an elephant or a person who can control an elephant?
people don't make elephant blueprints

[carmine plover]

Yeah, Pluton is explicitly a ship

However, it might be the case that the third weapon is a Devil Fruit, so that the ultimate weapon would be a combination of all three

A person who has eaten an incredibly strong DF riding on the most powerful battleship

Also, it'd be cool if Franky accidentally incorporated some of Pluton's design into the Sunny, cuz I think there's no chance he NEVER read the blueprints

At the very least, he's glanced at them

So, in this scenario, he would have looked at the blueprints, either out of curiosity or to understand just what was at stake, and he saw something horrifyingly powerful that he tried to forget. By blocking the memory out, however, when he was designing the Sunny, he subconsciously added some of the weapons/features without remembering their dark origin.

Iceburg was helping to build it, but he seems responsible enough to not read the Pluton blueprints unless it was time to build it

[timid path]

New theory

zoro will have to try to kill sanji after everything is over but sanji is fine and they will fight

[carmine plover]

New theory: Luffy defeats Kaido with his new ultimate Gear Fourth form: Monkeyman

[timid path]

nah hes awakening for sure

[carmine plover]

It's totally possible that Gear Fourth is on the cusp of awakening

[timid path]

oooh both???

wasnt there a leak of kaido and luffy spillting the seea and sky???

[carmine plover]

No, like, Gear Fourth is the Awakening, or, rather, a less advanced version of it

[timid path]

eh i think it would be a bit lame to keep pumping out more gears and stuff

gruigi

[carmine plover]

I'm not saying Gear Fifth, I'm saying whatever the Awakening is, Luffy will figure it out through Gear Fourth

[timid path]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah okok i understand well that would be cool then

[carmine plover]

I think one very safe bet is that the Awakening won't be just turning the environment into rubber. The Gum-Gum Fruit doesn't create rubber like the String-String and Mochi-Mochi create their namesakes, but rather Luffy himself was turned into rubber

One theory I read was vulcanization, which is the act of superheating rubber to make it much stronger and harder

[modest crane]

I mean going by how every other paramecia awakening has worked its the application of ones DF to other substances. So I'm assuming that Luffys awakening would turn surrounding structures into Rubber which would be cool because he could knock someone into the ground have them bounce back up at him and then smash their face in again and again

[carmine plover]

Again, the other Awakenings we see are from Fruits that already create/control things

Luffy doesn't create rubber, he just is rubber

[reef urchin]

Theory: Gear 4 Tigerman Last Moments Before almost Defeating Kaido

Wano Arc gets interruppted by Zou crashing the party and unnecessary navy battle

Blackbeard Shows up claiming whatever the world government is looking to seize

[carmine plover]

I think the WG just wants to control Wano, because they currently don't

[reef urchin]

Shanks shows his face on Whole Cake Island and realizes what Blackbeard's plot is

[pure raven]

shanks got his scar from blackbeards claw weapon he has

[reef urchin]

yup..i think shanks know what Blackbeard is

maybe he'll be the one to explain the "they" theory

[chilly sail]

So what’s people thinking that devil fruit is? Zou?

[late citrus]

I think big ma's fruit is what will awaken

[severe wedge]

Is kid can change magnetic fields of islands? If he can, no one can found islands.

They are finding islands with log pose

Just think about it. It's used on raftel so no one can found that island. Island get forgetten

Maybe kids fruit is not awakened fruit 🍑

[cobalt kayak]

Have we ever seen an elephant fruit??

[red anvil]

Funkfreed

[cobalt kayak]

Is it possible zuneishas powers are weakened because he’s walking in seawater??

New theory: maybe one of the ancient weapons “ate” a Devil fruit??

[strong elk]

i guess, zunisha will be pluton

[severe wedge]

I already told that.

Zunisha is a ship who eats Zou Zou nomi model .....

[strong elk]

If any human eat hito hito no mi, he will transform in a super human...
if a elephant eat one legedary model like a Ganesha == zunisha

[modest skiff]

Pluton is a ship. Franky saw the plans to build pluton. Zunesha is not a constructed device.

Zunesha has been walking for over 1000 years. There’s really no explanation for Zunesha being pluton.

Also with regards to your super human comment, please keep in mind this channel is only for serious theories, as described in the channel description

[reef sandal]

objects eating dfs is a science pioneered by vegapunk in the last 15 or so years

[modest skiff]

The Teapot in Wano was probably using a different method then

[reef sandal]

i don't know how i forgot what this was but could you please remind me

nvm, i remember now

ok so we know that he used it as a teapot before it ate the fruit right? that means that its existence probably fits the timeframe (which i could have been wrong on, it's def possible that it's much longer depending on how old vegapunk is) as long as the information on the technique to feed fruits to objects got into wano somehow
we can figure there's some pathway to at least the east blue given the shimotsuki line got out there and the mane mane no mi and bari bari no mi got out of wano
so there's an explanation that fits, if i'm not missing anything

@modest skiff is there anything i'm not considering here?

[junior cape]

He rember 👍

[pure raven]

i'm interested to see how a devil fruit is put into an object

it's not like you can go "open wide rock"

i don't think zunesha is pluton, i legit think it's at alabasta

that's why vivi and cobra are so important to the story

they are the only people that are keeping the wg from taking over the island or some pirate and finding it

the world gov wants vivi and cobra gone so they can get pluton... i think sabo has vivi

cobra is probably dead

[pure raven]

ok i just watched morj's video on zunesha... he has some really good points.. he may be right

pluton could have eaten a mythical zoan fruit and forced to walk to seas because of it's role in framing/overthrowing the ancient kingdom

[charred elk]

Jack and Funkfreed

[candid jungle]

Does anyone have the spoilers for one piece?

[gloomy canyon]

They’ll be out hopefully in the next 12 hours but this isn’t the channel to ask. You can go to #old-role-info and pick up the spoiler updates role to be notified when they’re out

[spiral coyote]

Pluton is a ship

Franky literally had the blueprints for it lol

[onyx kiln]

these mf don't even pay attetion to what they read/watch

smh

[amber oar]

they pay more attention to the (wrong until proven otherwise, which doesn't happen often) youtubers than to the manga/anime itself

[weak arrow]

@worldly aurora post it in #also-manga as this place isnt really for joke theories

[worldly aurora]

Alrighty

[lyric berry]

Zunisha ain’t pluton

[weak arrow]

@ivory nexus This channel isn't for joke or degenerate theories

[ivory nexus]

Ok my bad sorry for the inconveniences

[plucky kiln]

Shanks seems to like balance. Yet he doesn't resist from battling marine fleets to meet up with old friends. He is a pirate with pirate traits after all. But him talking to the Gorosei implying that he has some kind of relation to them confuses me. Do they have a contract ? Is some kind of situation forcing him to not lay a finger on the gorosei. Do they have similar goals or similar enemies ? idk

But he could be waiting as well. The one roger waited for. Maybe he thought his purpose would be to grow stronger and hold the world in balance until someone, joy boy, appears, just like roger wanted.

"I'm betting on a new era"

He got the straw hat by roger. Maybe he was told to find the one and to give it to him

Shanks betting on luffy could mean he trusted luffy to become the pirates king

Shanks cared about ace as well, even if he might have not been aware that ace was rogers son. maybe he had faith in ace too. thats one reason he could have cared about ace that he would step into action although he seemed to be a calm yonko

[modest skiff]

I think it is a waiting game and Shanks's only goal is to give Luffy time/room to grow. Shanks seems to have a lot of insight into the workings of the world and perhaps even some of this prophecy/future stuff. I think he has a basic idea of what this whole "new dawn" thing is and I think he had a really good reason to sacrifice his arm for Luffy.

I think the Gorosei are aware of Shanks's insights/knowledge/power and they have reason to trust him. I think he is still formally their enemy, but they realize there are going to be times when their interests overlap. I'd go so far as to say Shanks may have traded information for the WG to lay off Luffy a bit. My suspicion is that Shanks feeds them enough info to stay on their good side but not enough info to actually empower them.

I like your idea of Roger giving Shanks the straw hat to give to someone else. I think it is more likely Roger just saw Shanks as a good candidate to carry on Roger's will and that Shanks eventually decided Luffy could eventually carry his. But both are good ideas. Maybe he said something like "I am giving you this hat because I believe in you" to Shanks, which inspired Shanks to do the same.

What are you referring to about caring about Ace? Do you just mean showing up at MF? I thought he showed up after Ace died. In my eyes, Shanks was there to save Luffy while also staying on Gorosei "good" side.

[plucky kiln]

I was referring to shanks bringing up the effort to meet up with whitebeard. the main topic of their convo was ace's safety

now that we talk about this, one think comes in my mind

1. Shanks tried to prevent ace getting into danger
2. Shanks stepped into marineford after aces death
3. Shanks knows the gorosei

obviously shanks cared about ace, and maybe he wanted him to be safe, but he on his own could not do it himself. thats why he tried to prevent it
saving ace in marineford, would make the relations between him and the wg break, and he could not allow that. maybe thats why he stepped in afterwards.
what he also could do is to stop kaido from approaching to mf what would have brought chaos no matter what kaidos intnetnion were

[abstract pond]

It also looked kinda personal, like Shanks wanted to fight Blackbeard himself

[proud tree]

also how was Enel able to revive his Heart AFTER he died? Could that be explained with your theory of df awakening? Did he code that revival mechanism that activates in case of his death/ unconsciousness? Because how else would he use his devil-fruit while unconscious?

[plucky kiln]

but he didnt although he could have, and he could have won too I guess

he could have hunted down bb too

and he seemed to be aware of bb for a long time, but he still didnt warn wb until now

after all he got hurt by bb

[ancient vault]

He warned Whitebeard. He warned him these sequel of events would happen cause of the recklessness in that generation.

I dont think Shanks wanted to fight BB himself like @abstract pond says.

Im pretty sure he knows either Ace or Luffy are destined to fight Blackbeard because he probably knows what Blackbeard was up to (vaguely at least)

[plucky kiln]

I dont think Kidd and Law will loose

They have endured longer than zoro and luffy did and showed us a lot

And the most important fact is that although I dont know how kidd will have a role after wano, I highly doubt he will experience a loss in wano

After wano luffy, kidd and law will stick out as the major rookies who brought down two yonkos

[primal cargo]

Here's all the damage Big Mom has taken during the raid

Chapter 982 : She gets shot once by the Brachio-Tank
Chapter 988 : She gets run over by the Black Rhino
Chapter 989 : Jinbei and Robin send her crashing into a wall
Chapter 1003 : She takes an electric shock from Law
Chapter 1010 : She falls to the ground from 2m high, then gets hit with a boulder
Chapter 1013 : Kidd slams her into the ground
Chapter 1029 : Another electric shock
Chapter 1030 : She gets shocked from the inside and crushed under steel beams by Law & Kidd's respective ultimate attacks

Yeah I'm sure she's dropping soon she's basically done for

[plucky kiln]

Yes

Like even if the rookies won't have surpassed the yonkos, they will have fought through them and thats what kind of matters, to us and the world

so yes. Im looking forward to the breakdown of the yonko

[tribal roost]

wow

serious stuff being talked here

[muted ember]

Most of that stuff didn't hurt Big Mom at all. Like she was actually saying smashing her with a rock is useless as she's getting hit lol

[primal cargo]

I definitely agree that both Emperors are falling in Wano. I just really don't think Big Mom's time has come. The raid has been, to an overwhelming degree, about fighting Kaido. There's now way Big Mom gets beaten as a little plot point on the side.

[ancient vault]

nothing except the awakened powers hurt BM really

And even then I find it hard to believe Kids awakening is that good

considering its just "more strength" behind it

[muted ember]

I don't think so. I think Law temporarily changed her body to make her vulnerable

[plucky kiln]

yes I completely agree. I just dont see BM end just like that. I feel she will have a role, but will loose the same time

[muted ember]

No amount of falling metal should do anything to her

[primal cargo]

How do you reckon the Kidd&Law fight is ending then ? If they win now, how is that not extremely underwhelming ?
She didn't come to Wano to drop like this

[plucky kiln]

Their goal is to keep her away from Kaido
they can manage that without actually beating her I guess

but this thought doesnt work that well

I have no idea man lol

[primal cargo]

Well I guess we're on the same page then xd
I'd expect the fight to end unresolved for one reason or another

If the setting changes drastically before the end of the raid (like Onigashima explodes, or we land on Zunesha or whatever could happen) that would be a reasonable time for the fight to be interrupted I suppose

Or, as per my personal theory, she runs off to Kaido after Luffy has defeated him in order to take his friggin soul

[split glacier]

Doesn't that require fear? Kaido isn't really scared to die/of her

[primal cargo]

I kinda made a theory for that to work

It's not perfect but the idea is that :
1 - Soul Pocus relies on fear of death ("attachment to life" is what's said in the explanation)
2 - Kaido's will to survive is his biggest trait : even after numerous defeats, his CoC (=will) always kept him alive
3 - Kaido's spirit might be broken after he loses to a stronger conqueror (CoC is about overcoming the enemy's will) + all it takes is a second for Soul Pocus to work

Other points in terms of story include :

• Big Mom is clearly ready and willing to betray him and he will have lost his value as an ally ;
• Assuming Big Mom stays as a villain after Kaido drops, she should step up as a threat if she's gonna be a match for post-raid Luffy -> a super strong Yonko-level Homie ?

[main coyote]

I just saw that Edward Weevils mother Bakkin was said to be a pirate and on a ship with Whiteboard 40 years ago. Marco said this in his scene with Cat Viper. Does this suggest she was a Member of the Rocks pirates?

[grizzled fog]

That’s what’s implied yea. We know of no other crew Whitebeard was on during that time period

[muted ember]

Big Mom won't betray Kaido until she gets the road poneglyph. She even reprimanded Perospero for questioning the alliance bc it was her idea

And Kaido basically confirmed it bc when she asked about it he said something like it's too soon for them to betray each other

[clever lintel]

I wonder if Momo echoing Oden by carrying Onigashima will also have him end it by throwing Onigashima. Kaido gets KOd into Udon and Momo throws Onigashima onto where Kaido is.

[cobalt kayak]

What if poneglyph gets destroyed with onigashima

What if big mam steals zuneishas soul

[clever lintel]

I wonder about Law's fruit affecting Big Mom's soul. Like if he could remove something intangible from it like Caramel's corruption.

I just see this and think it's where Onigashima lands

[round monolith]

thats from wano right?

[clever lintel]

Udon factories

[pure raven]

i like this idea

if yamato can deal with the explosives

[cobalt kayak]

Are nsfw theories allowed here

[velvet edge]

no

[weak arrow]

no

[fathom matrix]

God no

[fathom matrix]

weeeeelllllll, Mother Caramel didn't corrupt her kids. She just pretended to be a nice person and her kids were the same, but Big Mom just ate her and took her fruit.

If anything, it Stroisen who led her down the path she's on, taking advantage of a little girl and turning her into a monster.

And while Law could help and remove almost any injury/object with his powers, I don't think he can heal or effect the mind/

I wouldn't say corruption is what Big Mom's being effected by, it's the way she grew up and who she became.

[muted ember]

I think if the story is moving towards Big Mom learning of her actions, Puddings awakening will allow her to bring out Big Mom's latent memories

And she doesn't necessarily need to be awakened either, she's already shown to do this w homies

[pure raven]

Everyone knows there is a big list of parallels between Thriller Bark and Wano. But what is next?

Thriller Bark | Wano parallels yet to be seen

• The self inflicted defeat (Moria | Big Mom): Moria powers himself up consuming shadows and becoming bigger. He does it so much it becomes the reason for his defeat. BM has now started consuming her lifespan and becoming bigger. She will consume so much it will actually turn her into a granny, leading to her defeat.

• The targeted combo fight (Oars/Kuma v SH | SSG??? v SH): Zombie Oars targets the Straw Hats with their bounty poster pics. The Straw Hats answer with a combo fight where they all participate. In Wano, we know CP-0 is targeting Robin, a new enemy might appear with the Straw Hats, specifically, in sight. This would lead to a fight with all of the SH - maybe even docking. If someone joins the crew after Wano, that someone will also be in this fight, as was Brook. This could be mixed with the Kuma fight - by making the enemy the SSG, the new Government science project who could be programmed to target the SH only.

• The fall and rise, just to fall again (Perona | Bao Huang): Perona and Bao Huang share the fact they're related to the all seeing entities of the place. Perona with her ghosts, Bao Huang with the Marys. At some point Perona is defeated by Usopp, then she wakes up to the chaos (ch 471). Her next move is to load the treasure into the Sunny to escape; she's then sent flying by Kuma before Nami could do anything. On the other hand, Bao Huang was defeated by Usopp, she will wake up to the chaos and try to take what she can and escape using the Sunny (she would know where it is due to the Marys), this time she'd be sent flying by someone else (Carrot? She's close enough, has paw gauntlets to fight).

• Nothing happened? (Zoro | Yamato): When confronted with the destructive power of Kuma, Zoro decides to sacrifice himself for Luffy, despite his big ambitions. Zoro does this by absorbing all of the pain and impact in an explosive manner, but most of the public does not know of this sacrifice. Yamato is heading to the weapons room, if the fire drawing gets there, everything explodes; if Yamato breaks the floor of the weapons room and the weapons fall, everything below them in the capital explodes. Yamato will be able to freeze the fire being, break the floor and let the weapons fall. Mid air, she will unfreeze the drawing and everything will explode. She will take the whole explosion, despite her dreams, for Luffy's journey and for the people of Wano, and no one will know about it. (My personal opinion is that she dies here, following the references to Okiyo the oni princess [from a Momotaro story], Oden and Ace).

• **Zoro's pre party hangover ** (Zoro): Pretty self explanatory, Zoro will be down for most of the party yet again, this time due to the mink drug's effects.

• The party and a reference to the past (Brook | Momonosuke): the fight ends as soon as the night does too. The party happens during the morning afterwards. During the party, Luffy tells Brook he has met Laboon. In Wano, Luffy will tell Momonosuke, who'll have something to do with Uranus, about the other ancient weapons they know from past experiences. They could even sing Bink's sake, Momonosuke was born on a pirate ship. Poneglyph reading may fit here too.

• The visit to the cemetery (Brook | Onimaru): After the party, Brook buries his old pals. Zoro goes there to say goodbye to his sword. They talk. I think, after the Fire Festival to honor the dead, the people of the capital go to the Ringo cemetery to pay some respects. Here, Zoro goes to Ryuma's grave to say goodbye to Shusui. Onimaru meets him there and talks about Ushimaru (grandpa?).

• Luffy's brother (Ace | Sabo): At the end of TB, Luffy sees Ace's Vivre Card and knows he's down bad. In Wano, this will be Luffy knowing through the news, or the Vivre Card, that Sabo is down bad.

[versed hamlet]

Wow that was amazing and it all seems so plausible i felt like i was reading chapters 1050 and onwards there it was rlly well written

[gloomy canyon]

gonna pin, what do you want me to title it?

[pure raven]

"Thriller Bark and Wano parallels" hey if you are more creative than that, do it, I'm sleepy

[gloomy canyon]

❤️

[pure raven]

thanks for the pin 😳

[versed hamlet]

How long did that take to come up with the ideas for + to actually write/synthesize?

[pure raven]

I have no idea... some of these ideas just came to be during discussions and one night I decided to compile them all

[shadow ruin]

Could blackbeard and kuma be related?

Not through brotherhood, but possibly the same tribe. They have the same hair, and a similar skin tone leading me to believe that they could be related in some way. They were also both Orphans, so they could be descendants of a wiped out moon tribe or something.

[modest skiff]

We don't have anything telling us that isn't true, but we also have not a lot other than physical appearance telling us it is true. So I'd say all I can really say is "maybe"

[amber oar]

I think if we start searching for secret wiped out moon tribes everywhere the theme is going to grow old. Teach has already being a D. on him, and an unusual kind of D. while we're at it. We have some glimpses of Kuma's past too, we know where he hails from and who is or may be related too. They don't need to share any connection, each of them has their own thing,

[severe edge]

personally i think the nothing happened parallel is more likely to happen with raizou

[grand walrus]

little unsure about the sunny thing woth bao hwang since the sunny is docked somewhere like 200 miles away

i was looking at the manga and it said "kuma: former king of sorbet kingdom" so he must not be an orphan right?

[agile tangle]

The vice captain of the big mom fleet is that chef guy right?

[agile tangle]

Unusual d as in because he's not fearless?

[slim moat]

I noticed something about Wano.

The waters surrounding wano looks like moat we see around big castles.

Also Koi fish are fresh water fish. They dug the whole thing like moat.

Wano is basically a fort built on higher ground. They might have created the higher ground themselves.

[tacit veldt]

Wano also kind of looks like a barrier built to trap inside of it the Onigashima giant

[slim moat]

You don't build a castle to trap some one.

Fortress is something else. Wano is the best natural fortress if it is natural. I am just appreciating Oda creation

[ancient vault]

Is it really natural tho? Or might this have been done artificially?

[primal cargo]

I'd be surprised if it hadn't. We were told that Wano's borders were closed by the Kozuki clan, and Wano's geography is by far the biggest contributing factor to that

[slim moat]

Mostly artificial. No way such formation exists naturally.

[stiff patrol]

great theory but yamato aint dying with the recent popularity she has had, plus her ambitions to go to sea with luffy. i agree that she will nearly die, proving her loyalty to luffy like zoro did

but let me ping you wit the sunwukong theory that also ties into the momotaro story

@pure raven

If this theory is correct, think about all the other powers luffy will have, and it makes sense with how dumb luffy is, he would never have realized his fruit had other attributes

Lastly yk hiw who’s who literally got improsssened and tortured simply for losing to one of the greatest pirates in the world, shanks. He had the same amount of potential as rob lucci and so the goverment couldn’t afford to lose him unless the fruit he lost was of this scale

[muted ember]

I agree with there being a team battle. The only thing I would add is that Sabo has Luffy's vivre card if I'm not mistaken, Luffy doesn't have Sabo's

[primal cargo]

As far I'm aware Sun Wukong isn't made of rubber. Luffy on the other hand is rubber.

He doesn't have the "ability to stretch", he's rubber plain and simple. Proof: immunity to electricity + even unconscious he's still elastic

[stiff patrol]

no no no the theory is relating to his staff, one of his attributes

[primal cargo]

Doesn't change a thing, the staff also isn't rubber

[stiff patrol]

https://youtu.be/71lrjD25p0E

[primal cargo]

Can't really watch a video rn. Can you state the arguments here ?
I don't remember being convinced by this video when I watched it but why not give it a chance

Is he arguing that Luffy ate the "Sun Wukong's staff" fruit ?

[stiff patrol]

no its about luffys final gear being related to sunwukong, more monkey like. nvm its fine

[primal cargo]

Ah well that's a possibility for sure
I just don't think it's gonna involve the fruit being something special that we didn't think it was

[clear isle]

Luffy's next gear is gonna be a tiger related

[stiff patrol]

No because wano is following the momotaro story it’s gonna be monkey related 🤣

[clear isle]

That's not even a reason for it to be a monkey

[stiff patrol]

Yeah, it is….

[muted ember]

Luffy is already a Monkey he doesn't need to become one to fit the Momotaro story

[tepid minnow]

That's like the most famous wano theory. Everyone is thinking that

[dark palm]

still can't go in G4 for longer than 10 minutes and folks are formulating G5 theories

[tepid minnow]

G4 is nothing now. It's treated like G2 in beginning of post TS

This is a yonko. kaido literally has 6 doflamingos and 3 katakuris

[dark palm]

hell, we haven't even seen the normal form of tank man

[dark palm]

what?

[tepid minnow]

Just trying to explain that G4 is not a big thing anymore. It's just a normal move that luffy uses everywhere now

Considering how strong the foes are

[muted ember]

No it's still clearly his strongest form and it still clearly has a hard limit

He ran out during the rooftop battle

[tepid minnow]

Disagree. He's currently doing better in his base

[patent summit]

Yeah because luffy was spamming the shit out of gear 4 attacks, he would last much longer if he spaced out his attacks

[slender fulcrum]

Remember, we're talking about a fruit awakening. Gomu Gomu no might be a stretch stretch fruit, but its awakening can be more, like a Zoan special property

if It's what the Gurusei are talking about, its even more possible since its a very rare awakening that didn't happen in the previous era, so " legendary " because undocumented, it became a myth and a legend

We don't know the rule behind Awakening one DF's power, but its possible its through the haki and willpower of its owner. Luffy having a strong Conqueror's haki, maybe it will awaken its fruit somehow

[tepid minnow]

I think it's time spent using the devil fruit that causes awakening

If you remember the jailers in impel down. You can see that they're not that strong compared to characters now. Yet they have awakening. So imo it's not about strength

[ancient vault]

Hes out here 1vs1ing Kaido in base form but I doubt Oda is skipping an opportunity for another luffy power up

[dark palm]

right but G5 doesn't have to be it. G4 augmentations can occur

[primal cargo]

Why are people against the idea of Gear 5. You afraid it would be too cool ?
Oda basically gave it away in that one SBS.
Also, remember that Gear 2 and 3 basically came together. Luffy had them both coming into Enies Lobby and was ready to bust out G3 on Blueno right after G2.

[tepid minnow]

I personally think that there will be a new gear. Just not 5

[simple parrot]

This ^

[abstract pond]

Many people talking about a gear 4 form with conquerors haki. And a gear 5 next arc when Luffy has more experience with it.

I didn't see anyone being against a gear 5

[muted ember]

If you're saying he's doing better than when he first used G4, that's bc of advanced conquerors Haki. It doesn't imply in any way that G4 is being treated the same as G2

He will still be much stronger than base when he eventually uses G4

[untold hazel]

I don’t like the gears

[reef sandal]

there's like no precedent for that in paramecia awakenings

[slender fulcrum]

that's why it's unprecedented, according to the Gurusei 😏

[reef sandal]

but why would oda give luffy a special fruit, the way he's been written so far is as someone with a pretty normal kind of fruit who just gets by with his creativity and perseverance
all of that is cheapened if the gomu gomu no mi turns out to be super special and important

[muted ember]

Also Oda said he made Luffy rubber so he can be goofy even when he is serious

[split glacier]

If G5 is meant to be some giant sized form, the last gear or a merger of all the gears then waiting for a possible big giant villain (Elbaf) could be an idea. I think G4 diversity is better now than G5. There's 2 real G4 forms and 1 form if he eats took much, I see it more like a joke form honestly. We won't see it again. Luffy is base fighting because Kaido isn't weakened enough for him to risk it with a G4(new mode?) Conq Haki attacks just to lose again. He knows G4 is/was haki taxing (even though it looks like he's overcome that drawback) so if he has a new form he's gonna wait till the last minute. He can't have another Doffy/Kata run away moment with Kaido being drained of all Haki, that's death for sure.

[muted ember]

Big Mom is a giant rn and I think Kaido will become one too

[split glacier]

I mean actual giants.

[muted ember]

I don't think the Elbaf giants will be antagonists, they seem generally peaceful and if Oimo and Kashi, or Hajrudin, has already returned to Elbaf then they already have a positive view of the SHs. There might be some misunderstanding like when Dory swallowed the bomb, but I don't see any major conflicts happening

[reef sandal]

oimi and kashi are back on elbaf

[split glacier]

The mystery behind Loki allows for some villainy actions. He's the Prince for some reason and I don't think the pirates are the highest order there. There's some type of royalty that resides over everything. Not all of them need to be evil, every land has some internal conflicts. All/most giants hate BM but he was willing to merge the families regardless. I don't think everyone was happy about it plus the nature of Loki in mythology in general if Oda goes that route.

[split glacier]

And how do you think Kaido will become a giant? BM in this new form probably still isn't the size of giants. She's 880cm, Dorry and other giants are around 2200cm. I don't think she more than doubled her size. Probably 1/3 or 1/2 the way there.

[muted ember]

Loki is peaceful he could've challenged Big Mom but he basically told the giants to ignore the issue. And since he could tell the difference between Lola and Chiffon to me implies he's very emotionally driven

[muted ember]

Awakening. And Big Mom more than doubled her size I can prove it and the beast pirates I'm pretty sure said she's a giant

[pure raven]

well the Sunny can be in a cave within Onigashima, that'd be my guess

[pure raven]

yeahh!!! small mistake. News it is then

[pure raven]

I don't think she's joining bc I think the devil fruit number pattern is absolute

[stiff patrol]

Bro, she joining. She legit said that she wanted to go out to sea with luffy…..