manga-theories

[fading thorn]

why does the world government give devil fruits to pirates who already have devil fruits? wont that just kill them

i doubt that they dont have a stash of devil fruits either so yea

it doesnt even have to be a rare DF, just a normal one like idk, the smelly smelly fruit

[compact glade]

??

Do you mean why dont they give them a devil fruit to kill them?

[fading thorn]

👍

[gilded cedar]

1. DFs are rare regardless of what fruit it is so its unlikely to have a stash like that
2. If they capture a df user, they can easily kill them with just weapons after chaining them with sea prism

[compact glade]

They aren't that stupid to eat it

[fading thorn]

but what about the really dangerous people? sea prism doesnt automatically incapacitate them, just makes them weak

[gilded cedar]

Yea but they can still be executed just like Ace

[compact glade]

No one is dumb enough to dive into a dangerous individual with the plan to feed them a df to try killing them

[gilded cedar]

If it comes to the worst, they can use the admirals or something to kill them

[sand sail]

The problem with that line of reasoning is it's waaay too costly to just feed two fruits to someone. Or even just one to someone who already has it. So, they're not going to do it unless it's for the absolute worst, most invulnerable individuals out there. 'Cause anything less and it'd be silly to go to the extent of grabbing devil fruits to waste on it, so they'd just kill them some other way

Which brings up the main issue. If someone is so strong that the only sure way to kill them seems to be feeding them two fruits, they're probably going to be the kind of person that they can't actually bring down enough to feed those fruits to them in the first place

And if they can, why bother using the fruits? Clearly they weren't needed

[pure raven]

In fact I think they already captured kaido multiple times no? So why not kill him that way! Hein isn't it a litle scenario mistake here? Or I'm mistaken and kaido was never captured and they tried to execute him?

[sand sail]

He was captured repeatedly, but they didn't want to kill him at some point, and he managed to use that to escape I imagine

[pure raven]

I think it's really a mistake here from oda there is no but lol

Only if maybe just maybe eating 2 fruit doesn't kill a person but has some other bad effect

We don't know of yet and we all are mislead by the nose by oda 😅

[pure raven]

And I think they did attempt to execute him multiple times if I remember right

Or maybe if they tried to feed him devil fruit he would have used coating on the seastone handcuffs? like luffy did at the prison and free himself before they kill him that way, but is that possible on seastone? When the user himself is DF eater, so he will be in a weakned state.

But kaido was presented as some one who searched for death

Too much contradiction

[upbeat mist]

he searches for death, but we don't know why so I wouldnt call that a contradiction if we only know part of the story

[frail yarrow]

He might have been seaken death since recently and his family issues

Tobi roppo implied it was very frequent

Having a son that wants to kill you must be hard

[queen arrow]

doubtful

after all Kaido was the one who started the threat on Yamato's life with the handcuffs set the explode

[pure raven]

Yes I agree, but the fact, they tried to execute him multiple time, yet failed but logically if they fed him a second devil fruit it would have been done, yet it hasn't been done, so either its a scenario mistake from oda or in reality a second devil fruit doesnt kill but has another bad effect we don't know of yet @frail yarrow @upbeat mist

[pure raven]

Does handcuff aren't seastone?

[queen arrow]

no they where explosive handcuffs

[pure raven]

Yeah because in case a devil fruit user has seastone handcuffs I doubt he would be able to free himself even with coating like luffy did? Cause his whole body will be in a weakned state so no haki control !?

[frail yarrow]

Seastone isn't breakable as much as we know

We dont yet understand how it's handled in wano

[pure raven]

Yes, but I think only for devil fruit users, not ordinary person like shanks for example, I think with coating a none devil fruit user may break it? Just supposition

[frail yarrow]

Well... Maybe ?

[pure raven]

In wano it's not seastone

[frail yarrow]

Well, yes it is !

[pure raven]

Really?

[frail yarrow]

Yep, hence Why Hawkins had seastone nails

And Why cp0 is so interested in dealing with orochi

[pure raven]

I don't remember but does luffy touch the hand cuff when coating to break it?

[frail yarrow]

The hgandcuffs of udon arent seastone

[pure raven]

Oh well thats it

So a devil fruit users wouldn't be able to break them , hence kaido when imprisoned by the marine

[sand sail]

The handcuffs in Udon are seastone

The handcuffs in Onigashima are not

[frail yarrow]

Oh yes I meant the collars sorry

[pure raven]

Doesn't change mutch in my reasoning

[frail yarrow]

Nobody (as far as we know) can break sea stone.
Any other stuff can be destroyed

[pure raven]

I don't think that's a valid statement cause In the first place they have to be formed, and to be formed they have to be manipulated and forged, so the fact seastone are forged and manufactured in wano, I think it's related to the fact they use ryuo, so maybe ryuo coating can break them,
What I said is that devil fruit users wouldn't be able to use coating cause their body would weakned hence not be able to control haki hence kaido being imprisoned by the marine, while he can coat

[agile tangle]

Someone did say that it's probably like he wants to die in a heroic way

Like not dying but rather challenging the limits of what's possible

Saw it somewhere on Reddit I think but I can't remember where

[pure raven]

I can understand that

And agree with it more or less

[agile tangle]

Which would explain why he didn't drown himself

Although someone said that his fruit allows him to stay in water

[pure raven]

Yeah logic the second part about staying in water is stupid 😅

[agile tangle]

But doesn't seem possible

[frail yarrow]

I can see his fruit allowing him to breath under water

Not move

[pure raven]

Hmmm there is some possibilities

But wouldn't water nullify his transformation and go back to his human form in water

Cause he will loose his devil fruit power so he become human again

[frail yarrow]

Nope, cf luffy in Arlong park : water doesn't nullify a df

[forest rampart]

Pardon me for the intrusion but i want to drop a long theory. Pls standy

@warm hollow @zinc iris Sorry for taking too long. i've finished everything but i'll drop part 1 first. i'll drop part 2 after getting your response.

 “ : “ is explanation and theories```

**Raftel** (part one)
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**Table of Content :**

**Some reference on Ancient Kingdom and why AK is Raftel/ Laugh Tale**
　**P.Clover on AK;**
　**Words of others on Raftel combined with AK part above;**
[*Stretch alert ;because lack of evidence*]
**Current Condition of Raftel**
　**Conclusion**

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**Some reference on Ancient Kingdom and why AK is Raftel/ Laugh Tale**

Initially, I wanted to put these info below as a reference to both Raftel and Ancient Kingdom, so that one can check if I’m missing out anything or not. But since I realized some people think that Raftel and AK are two different islands, I’ve decided to drop both info and theories at the same time in points format.

**P.Clover on AK;**

- “The greatest truth that we seek in the world today is not the ponegliff, but **the reason for its existence.** Why did the people of the past resort to writing on the stone in order **to convey a message to the future**? They **dotted the world with these unbreakable stone tablets, onto which they carved their history**. Isn't this because they felt that **their message would be eradicated if left only on paper and book**?! In other words, this is proof that the people who left the ponegliff behind **had an enemy**!!”

- Clover: “If we assume these people were annihilated by their enemy, then **this enemy survived through the subsequent history**. And coincidentally, **the 100-year void ended 800 years ago which marks the birth of the World Government**.”
- Five Elders: ...!!
> The Five Elders are shocked to hear Prof Clover's conclusion, meaning that Clover got it right.

- Clover: “**If the World Government happened to be the enemy of the people who were annihilated**, we can conclude that **the 100-year void contains a history that was inconvenient to the World Government and hence was erased**!!”

“After reading ancient manuscripts and the few ponegliffs that have been found, we've gradually discovered the existence of a nation... of which no trace now remains...”

• 我々はやがて一つの国の存在に気づいた。。。今はもう跡形もないが

跡形: trace; evidence.
There's no trace of the country now.
(i’ll explain this part later with Pluton)

• What is clear from these manuscripts is the existence of an immense kingdom!!”

• “They once had enormous power, but all information about this kingdom has been relentlessly erased.”
  　: Enormous power probably refers to their influence. And maybe also ancient weapons but some people are already aware of it’s existence, so it’s most likely about the influence of that kingdom instead, which had an influence all over the world.

• “We still don't know the nature of this threat but the key is this AK that once thrived.. and its name was..” (then, the Five Elders ordered CP9 to kill P.Clover).
  　: Prof Clover seems like he knew AK's name in which Gorosei wanted to keep it as a secret before they ordered Spandine to shot Clover before he could said the name.

• The Five Elders: Ohara has.. learned too much! Give the order to attack. Don't leave a single soul alive!
  　: The Five Elders’ reaction and words pretty much confirmed that Prof. Clover was right on the spot about everything he told them. This could act as another support on AK is Raftel since Prof. Clover words have been proved to be right on the spot.

Everyone was aware of the name of the last island right? At least, Robin was aware of the name of Raftel as seen at Skypiea Arc. While we don’t know if Strawhats was aware of the name or not, we can at least assume that they knew that Raftel name from Crocus at Twin Cape.
　Roger started Great Pirate Age 24 years ago from the current time-line, which was during his execution. Ohara incident took place 22 years ago, means 2 years after the start of Great Pirate Age. Coincidence? I think not.
　If the name of that AK Clover tried to say is Raftel, wouldn’t that at least left those CP9 agents with curiosity and to be in doubts with WG? (as seen in Saul and also.. Kuzan maybe). But perhaps nothing would change if the name if Raftel as those CP9 agents don’t seem to be that smart especially Spandine.

Words of others on Raftel combined with AK part above;

[Stretch alert ;because lack of evidence]

• "プルトン"。 "一発放てば島一つを跡形もなく消し飛ばすと聞く..., Crocodile.
  "Pluton." "One shot of it can wipe out an entire island without leaving a trace." (DeepL translation)
  [Official translation if anyone wants to make a comparison: "Pluton." "One shot of it can vaporize an entire island to smithereens." (Viz).]

• Again: "We soon realized that there was a country. There's no trace of it now.", Prof. Clover on AK.
  　: While we don’t know which island Crocodile was talking about, but based on those two info, one can assume that Crocodile was talking about the same island Prof. Clover was referring to, the Ancient Kingdom. To further prove this, Clover was using the word 跡形(trace; evidence), the same word Crocodile used there, to form a sentence of no trace/without leaving a trace (跡形もなく/ 跡形もない).

• Robin: “Do you know what happened to the world in the blank 100 years that started 900 yrs ago?!”

• Rayleigh: “Yes, we know. We learned about everything that occurred. Even if I told you everything in history right now, there is nothing you could do about it! The answer you will arrive at may be different from ours, even after you see the world in its entirety at your own pace. But if you still want to know, I will tell you everything that happened in the world.”

• News have been spread about Roger made it to last island, and he got a title of The King of The Pirates. Oden: “And on that day, we learned the entire truth of the world. What the 100-year void is, what the people of the D are, what the ancient weapons are... In the past, Wano was open to the world.”
  　: As explained by Clover above (scroll up), ponegliffs contain information about the Ancient Kingdom and we know that it also contain info about the Void Century which took place somewhere between 900 to 800 years ago. To think that Raftel/ Laugh Tale has the answer for everything about the world and VC, must means that it once posses a great power in the past. And the only one that we know has enormous power was the Ancient Kingdom.
  　: So once again, AK = Raftel.

• “Raftel, it’s the last island of the Grand Line. In all of history, only one group of pirate is known to have landed there for sure... the crew of The Pirate King. Raftel is the stuff of legend.”, Crocus.
  　: Legend could also mean historical, or very renowned.
  　: We know very little about Raftel, but we know a bit more about Ancient Kingdom. AK is a historical kingdom, and used have a great power in the past. But how great was its power? I would assume that it was known all over the world, or at least throughout the Grand Line because Poneglyphs, the stones that contain documents about AK, are scattered all over the world, even in West Blue (Robin found one there, and Ohara has one).

• “When you know them all... and you connect the four points on a map... it will naturally appear in the middle of them!!!” “The location of the FINAL ISLAND which for centuries... has only been reached by the KING OF THE PIRATES and his crew... RAFTEL!!!”, Inuarashi.
  　: Centuries mean few hundred years. Out of some places that we know, the only place/s that have been existed since few hundred years ago, and haven't be visited by Strawhats yet, is/are Ancient Kingdom, and Raftel. But we don’t know the actual name of Ancient Kingdom. One might think that AK and Raftel are different islands but there’s a chance for it to be the same island. Like Strawhats never guessed that Skypiea was a part of Jaya before they learned the truth. I think this pretty much give a chance for AK and Raftel to be a same island.

• We're the first people to reach this final island in 800 years... Why don't we give it a name? We'll call it “Laugh Tale.", Roger.
  　: Void Century takes place around 900 to 800 years ago, and have info about the Ancient Kingdom. 800 years ago is the time of AK’s fall, and also the rise of World Government. While one can think that this is just a coincidence, I think this explains that Raftel is Ancient Kingdom.

• We have two maps of Raftel and one map of AK.
  　: [Stretch alert] While it’s not accurate, one can also assume that both places are the same place based on these images below. The red circles show the same building from different perspective views.

Also, why does Road Poneglyphs exist? ..in which among the poneglyphs that scattered all over the world, that contain info about 100-year void, ancient weapons, the people of the D, and about Wano has open to the world in the past, why are there also poneglyphs that tell the location of Raftel? Isn’t it weird for the poneglyphs that belonged to the ancient kingdom to tell the location of other island even if they probably have a very close relation to the AK? And to tell the location of that island ONLY? While people are aware of the existence of Wano, but since Wano has very close connection to the island, that poneglyphs could also mentioned about the location of Wano, shouldn’t it? Not only Wano, but if AK has other VERY CLOSE connection to the other islands, shouldn’t it also tell the location of that other islands? (but there’s only Wano, or that’s what we know for now for now).

It’s only natural to think that the Road Poneglyphs tell the location of AK instead of their allied countries. Their allied countries are still there, and still alive and well as we’ve seen. There are people/citizens on each of those islands, while no one knows and remember anything about the AK. So, their only way to make others remember or know about its existence would be by telling others of its location, which is carved on the Road Poneglyphs.

This means, the last island, Raftel, is the ancient kingdom itself. And the reason one need to collect the Road Poneglyphs if they wanted to go to Raftel is because it’s difficult to get there, the island itself is unseen/ invisible, and because log pose cannot detect the location of that island, thus can’t navigate properly to the island without any proper information.

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[Stretch alert ;because lack of evidence]

Current Condition of Raftel

Again,

• “我々はやがて一つの国の存在に気づいた。。。今はもう跡形もないが”, Prof Clover.

跡形: trace; evidence.

"We soon realized that there was a country. There's no trace of it now." (DeepL translation)

• "プルトン"。 "一発放てば島一つを跡形もなく消し飛ばすと聞く..., Crocodile.
  "Pluton." "One shot of it can wipe out an entire island without leaving a trace." (DeepL translation)
  [Official translation if anyone wants to make a comparison: "Pluton." "One shot of it can vaporize an entire island to smithereens." (Viz). Smithereens also means; fragments, bits.]

Again, 跡形: trace; evidence.
消し: erase; wiped out .

From here, we can assume that Raftel and Ancient Kingdom is the same country, and the island in the rumor that Crocodile was talking about is Raftel. Since Roger Pirates were able to go to Raftel, we can assume that the enemies (20 allied kingdoms) didn’t really destroy the island entirely since it is still there for this entire time. But why would the rumor say that the entire island was destroyed without leaving a trace?

I don’t want to go too deep for this one so I decided to make a comparison with other similar terms to “without a trace” (跡形もない).

So,

• “貴様の故郷を消し去った力だ”, Spandam.
  “The power that wiped out your home.” (DeepL)

Again, 消し: erase; wiped out .

• “オハラという文字は... 翌年の地図から消えてたっけなァ...”, Spandam.
  “The word "Ohara"... disappeared from the map the following year...” (DeepL)

消えて: gone; vanish; disappear (without a trace).
　: But we can see that Ohara is still there after the incident, when some marines inspected the island.
　: The condition of the Ohara was in ruins.

• Also, Robin said, “Can you confirm the existence of people from maps? You people only see the world through such devices... That's why you can do such heinous things!”
  　: Robin told Spandam that there are people on the island that can’t be seen from a map that the WG has erased.
  　: Same with the island, even though Buster Call has erased Ohara’s name from the map the following year after the incident, it doesn't necessarily mean that Ohara has been completely destroyed and the island itself is gone.

It's just the term that Spandam and some WG people decided to use, which is also to open readers’ eyes to how they viewed the world. So the term “disappear without leaving a trace” is just about the amount of damage that has been done to that island, that was about the bombing done by Buster Call.
　: Same for what Crocodile said, instead of Buster Call, Pluton was used to bomb the island (Raftel) that he was talking about.

• In Kurau City of Zou, Robin said: “This city is big enough to house hundreds of thousands...”
  “...一人残らず住人が消えているなんて”
  “and every single one (of the residents) seems to be gone without a trace...” (Viz)

Again, 消えて: gone; vanish; disappear (without a trace).
　: Robin talked about the citizens of Kurau City have gone/ disappear/ vanish (without a trace) here.
　: But we know those minks were still alive. And the condition of the city was in ruins.

So, the term “wipe out an entire island without leaving a trace” is just to imply something happened to the island in which was the Great War of Void Century.

Conclusion

This means that Raftel is a ruin now.

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i'm done for now.

[pastel summit]

I can agree with a majority of this, except like you said, "Laugh Tale" or "Raftel", was a name given to the island by Roger. Which likely means the Ancient Kingdom was not called "Raftel", but something else. Only thing is, if the WG had Pluton, what would have happened for them to lose it?

[nimble hinge]

Yeah the name has its own significance. Whatever Clover was going to call the AK was something besides LaughTale, that has its own weight and relevance. Enough so that the WG drew the line and made its decision when realizing the name was going to be said.

[forest rampart]

Yea I agree that Laugh Tale might not be the original or old name for ancient kingdom, but that's not what I'm trying to prove here.

As for Pluton, I'll say that Alabasta had it all along but as for why WG or the 20 allied kingdoms, the enemies of AK managed to get hold of it, I can't really say how and why. But since Alabasta was one of the 20 original kingdoms that fought against AK, I'll say that we can blame Alabasta for that as for now.

[slate zodiac]

Damn ima read that later fasho looking forward to it

[nimble hinge]

Alabasta has multiple kings, so perhaps one set was fine with pluton and annihilation the AK alongside the 19 other nations. While another faction was not, rebelled and hid the ship.

[forest rampart]

Everyone was aware of the name of the last island right? At least, Robin was aware of the name of Raftel as seen at Skypiea Arc. While we don’t know if Strawhats was aware of the name or not, we can at least assume that they knew that Raftel name from Crocus at Twin Cape.
　Roger started Great Pirate Age 24 years ago from the current time-line, which was during his execution. Ohara incident took place 22 years ago, means 2 years after the start of Great Pirate Age. Coincidence? I think not.

[pastel summit]

yeah this is most likely the case.

[pure raven]

Or maybe alabasta was an Allie of AK kingdom from the first place and pluton was created by the ak and gived to alabasta, but alabasta changed camp and helped the 20 kingdom, and did an act of treason against the Ak kingdom by helping the 20 kingdom, and maybe because of guilt they didn't join them in mari joi

[pastel summit]

My working theory is Nefertari family took over towards the tail end of the void century, since Cobra 800 years later is only the 12th king of the Nefertari Dynasty or w/e. So whoever was ruling prior to that was fine with working with the 19 kings, but the 1st nefertari ruler rebelled

[pure raven]

Like Italy was with Germany in world War but changed camps after ward

[forest rampart]

Two big incident in history:

• The Great Pirate Age that started from Roger's execution.
• And Ohara's incident.

Meaning, the impact that if the name is Raftel, it will only spark the Great Pirate Age even more after Ohara's incident.

[nimble hinge]

I think it might be the other way around. I think the Nefertari have been around a long time, but their family wasnt always kings. So Cobra can be the 12 Nefertari king and a 20th generation Nefertari at the same time

But that wouldn't discount them from having been kings during or before the Void century

[pastel summit]

So you think there were people other than Nefertaris who ruled Alabasta after the void century?

[nimble hinge]

As long as they stopped for a long time and then became kings again

[lapis prairie]

"Raften is in ruins, probably by Pluton" I feel like this is a weaker argument than you present it as. In fact, I think you sort of disprove its validity in your post. As you say, a Buster Call can turn something to ruin. Jack can turn something to ruin. That Raftel is described as being in ruin doesn't mean Pluton did it.

I may have misinterpreted what you were saying...

[pure raven]

@nimble hinge read what I said maybe alabasta changed camp during the war, and that's why they didn't join the 20 kingdom in mari joi because of guilt

[upbeat mist]

you act like they could force open his mouth/had one when they wanted to kill hmi

[forest rampart]

The only thing that can prove that Raftel is in ruins is it was the work of Pluton other than that we already know it lose against the allied kingdoms in the Great War as Clover said.

[pastel summit]

'cause the main crux of me saying that is that if you have 12 rulers over 800 years, it'd mean that each ruler lasts for about 67 years each. which isn't out of the realm of possibility, but it is pretty long. and if you stretch it to say 900 yrs, it becomes like, 75 yrs each. So the longer back the Nefertari family goes as rulers, the more of a stretch it becomes. and I don't think anyone would have taken over AFTER the void century.

Feels definitely like they have held the throne for these past 800 yrs. but this is purely speculative.

[nimble hinge]

I think it's possible. Just pointing out the option. Think it's even more likely if you hold water in the Rayleigh theory.

[pure raven]

Why are you fixed about who rules the alabasta kingdom years ago or now doesn't change the facts

[pastel summit]

idk what the rayleigh theory is, but it is possible I just do not think it's that likely

[lapis prairie]

I get what you're saying now. Um then I think that is a bit too much of a stretch. I'm not saying you're wrong! Just that we can't know. A lot of that evidence is based on Croc saying that Pluton can turn an island to ruin. That doesn't mean 1) He actually knows that, just that he's heard a rumour, and 2) That it has anything to do with Raftel.

[nimble hinge]

The Rayleigh theory is that he was part of one the royal families of Alabasta. Nefertari or otherwise.

[lapis prairie]

But, I do have to say, Cookies, That is a damn fine post and collection of material!! Seriously, Kudos!

[pastel summit]

is that just based on the beard or is there anything more to it? lol

[pure raven]

This kind of big logical dots are obviously connected because they can't be otherwise, because then why even mention that kind of information in the story

[lapis prairie]

Why mention a massive ship that's blueprints are the center of TWO arcs can do something crazy? Because it has to be big enough to care about

[nimble hinge]

There's a few things based on what I remember. Epithet, Design (including his beard, but also his clothing), his sword.

[pure raven]

Yes

[nimble hinge]

It's one of those weaker theories that more fun to believe in rather than based on plenty of reason and justification.

[lapis prairie]

...What? Dude read what I said.

[pastel summit]

yeah. Could see the title being a double meaning.

[pure raven]

I did I don't seem to understand how your statement contradict mine lol

[pastel summit]

similar to Sanji's whole "Mr. Prince" deal.

[nimble hinge]

And I know people hate Zoro and Rayleigh comparisons, but both might turn out to be part of a royal family in the end. I think we're supposed to get a little more on his lineage in this arc, I believe?

[hidden tundra]

Zoro And Rayleigh has the same eye injury.. hm

[forest rampart]

1. There are some things that started from rumors but is proven to be right later: The existence of ancient weapons especially Pluton at Alabasta (not the original one but was somewhat proven by the its blueprint in Enies Lobby Arc), The sky island/Skypiea, The One Piece (Roger found the vast treasure that laid before their eyes).
2. Yeah, I agree this one is a stretch but since that was so early on and we didn't know any info of other islands that might be blown by Pluton, I can only think of Raftel, and no other islands.

[forest rampart]

Thanks 🙏

[pure raven]

@forest rampart what do you think of alabasta being first one of AK allie, that's why they had pluton, it was created by the ak and gived to them, but then they betray the Ak kingdom and changed camps and joined the 20 kingdom alliance against ak, after winning the war, they didn't join them in mari joi because of guilt?

[forest rampart]

Possible. It's what I have in my thought too.

But I can't really say if they got Pluton from the AK or not.

[pure raven]

Yes can't determine

[nimble hinge]

Maybe not this arc, but eventually. Although I'd wager it's most likely to come up in this arc.

[pastel summit]

I don't think there's much to Zoro's lineage.

[pure raven]

But while pluton is a ship it may have been stationed At alabasta

[forest rampart]

A warship

[pure raven]

Yep

[nimble hinge]

I would have agreed before that quote. Since then I think it's more relevant, but still not by much. Minor reveal, but nothing that'll have any direct impact like Vinsmoke did.

[pastel summit]

I think there is stuff relating to his village, but not him directly.

[nimble hinge]

Wouldn't really mention his lineage in the way that he did in that case.

[pastel summit]

which is what that quote is mainly hinting at. Since leaving Wano was not common, yet it did happen, and resulted in the formation of that village.

[forest rampart]

Luffy's origin is also a mystery. Isn't there's a tease about we didn't know from where Luffy was born or smth?

[pastel summit]

Oda being Oda lol. He knows people think there's something to Zoro's backstory.

[lapis prairie]

I tried to craft a response to you, but I have no idea how to.

How can I respond but by saying that you said that things connected by non-linear reasoning must be connected. I said no, and you agreed, but are still defending the non-linear position

I'm bamboozle3d

[nimble hinge]

Well, if it turns out he's a Shimotsuki, that makes him "royal" was my point. Much like it would make Rayleigh royal if we got that reveal.

I'm confident we'll get the former. Latter would be fun as well though.

[pastel summit]

Would more be noble than royal, but I doubt he is shimotsuki. Would make him Kuina's cousin/brother.

doesn't seem like that's what Oda was going for.

[lapis prairie]

100% with the rumor thing. I think all One Piece rumors will come true, it just felt important to say that we couldn't know.

[versed hamlet]

how could zoro even be shimotsuki if he's already roronoa

[pastel summit]

zoro has just been using a fake name and somehow people on wano will know that.

[pure raven]

Let me craft mine then, and see if we are in the same line of tought or not

[amber oar]

Roronoa father, Shimotsuki mother.
Just speculating, not that I really believe he's a descendant

[versed hamlet]

they can sense the shimotsuki haki

[forest rampart]

If you're wondering about the importance of ancient weapons, I'll say it is possible that AK owns them since the info to that weapons are written on poneglyphs, a stone that have info about the true history of AK itself. @lapis prairie

[modest skiff]

If Alabasta floats, I think it’s chilling under Alabasta

[nimble hinge]

Mhm, last names aren't saying much. We got an update to Law's name. Cobra marrying into the Nefertari family is another belief some have. With Titi and Vivi's hair being part of the Nefertari bloodline. Tyti being a queen of egypt. Nefertiti another. And so on

[modest skiff]

Which of course bring big dog buggy into the mix

[forest rampart]

The update of Trafalgar Law to Trafalgar D. Water Law you meant?

[amber oar]

Silvers Cobra theory

[lapis prairie]

You don't think there's anything there? Setting up the village having the same name as a shogun is a big deal.

[pure raven]

You say here yourself that plutôn is big enough to do some thing crazy, because it was mentioned mainly for 2 arcs, so why saying that, and in the same time doubting it. while also saying it's effect may just be a rumor and not be a real deal.
why mention it in the story even in the first place and having croc say that it may do that much damage, it means it has some relationships to the main plot, and the main plot is what @forest rampart is analyzing. so when you said that plutôn is big enough to do crazy thing you in fact agreed with cookies

[nimble hinge]

Daimyo. They weren't shoguns, although that family was next in line in theory.

[pastel summit]

Sure, but Law was intentionally hiding his name. I don't think someone who places such pride on himself like Zoro would intentionally hide his name. and I don't see how people from Wano would get updates on who Zoro really is from East Blue, 30 years after the people who left there.

[nimble hinge]

Not sure the Water part was meant to be hidden? That was just a regular update to it.

[lapis prairie]

Dude, please use more punctuation and full stops. That was one sentence. I'm not in your head.

[nimble hinge]

And Kozaburo and the others left 55 years ago, but I get what you mean.

[versed hamlet]

he says that water is his secret name so it def was meant to be hidden

[pure raven]

Sorry I'll do that, I write fast I always forget to

[lapis prairie]

True, but still

[pastel summit]

he does call it a secret.

[amber oar]

a Daimyo, actually. It is a known fact that a Shimotsuki founded the village, but

• He didn't come alone, and likely the travelers didn't all believe to a single family
• The village isn't made 100% of descendants, there were natives living in a lawless land. The town mixes both Wano immigrants and natives. So Zoro may be either from Wano origin, native origin, or mixed

[versed hamlet]

exactly

[pastel summit]

yes, I know kozaburo left 55 yrs ago, but zoro was born 21 yrs ago. So they would've somehow had to have gotten an update on who zoro is. and idk who would even be telling people on wano about him.

[nimble hinge]

That's a narrative reason for keeping it secret. A similar reason can be given for updating or revealing anyone's lineage in the series.

[amber oar]

For example, Ace using his mother's surname

[versed hamlet]

the carpenter on loguetown duh

[nimble hinge]

It's not like he had Law as a D when he first created. Or Water as a secret name for him.

[pure raven]

Why would alabasta be floating?

[nimble hinge]

Those aspects came into play later, when he came up with them. And iterated on them in the story.

[modest skiff]

This is my understanding as well. I wonder what made people decide to leave Wano. And I wonder how they pulled it off. Not an easy thing to do

[modest skiff]

It appears some islands float and some don’t. Some islands clearly go down to the bottom of the ocean like conventional islands irl but some don’t

[amber oar]

which island is floating?

[pastel summit]

the 2 ones we know definitively that float would be Jaya and Water 7.

[versed hamlet]

And idk if this counts as an island but this also "floats"

[neon shoal]

Does anyone think five flying revealed

[pure raven]

I think this is levitating not floating

[neon shoal]

Im not sure if laffitt fruit counts though

[versed hamlet]

Isnt that the same thing lol

[lapis prairie]

It think about this a bit. It's either been ret-conned, or all tori-toris are used as one example

[nimble hinge]

Did King and Queen have their fruits when the Oden fight happened?

[weary cliff]

The 5 flying fruits is long out the window. There's like 2 dozen, even if you don't count weird technicalities like G4

[neon shoal]

Heh that true

[pure raven]

When water is the reference yes because Floating is staying on the surface of water while also moving without being connected to the actual earth under water, while levitating in this case is avoiding water @versed hamlet

[lapis prairie]

Even the triceratops can fly...

[amber oar]

[lapis prairie]

Didn't one of Doffy's main guys have the ability to fly as well?

[weary cliff]

Throw in some logias like Caesar

[neon shoal]

Not very sure
But it wouldnt be too surprising if king and queen didn’t have devil fruit that time because king and queenfruit are very rare

[pure raven]

What

[weary cliff]

Ancient zoans are rare, so it may have taken time to acquire them.

I lean towards them already being power users

[pure raven]

It's not even a subject relevant to discuss about, but if they didn't have their fruit, and up until now we didn't see them use haki, then what How where they fighting,

• why wouldn't they have them there is not actual strong evidence to not believe so, just because they are rare its not an argument to even think about in my opinion

[modest skiff]

Oda was like “man I really hate I said 5…this would be so cool…ehhhh fuck it”

[weary cliff]

I agree, yeah, there's really not much to say about it. Just thought I'd help out since you seemed confused anyways

[pure raven]

Astonished 😅

[queen arrow]

what are the "two dozen" fruits that allow for true flight

[weary cliff]

The scope of the story clearly wasn't as grand in his head back then

[queen arrow]

i think you could make the argument that the 5 flying fruits thing could still be right due to semantics

but you'd need more time in your hands and more patient than i have right now

[pure raven]

Flying due to wings only maybe?

[queen arrow]

it could be

maybe different models of the same category of Zoan fruit just count as one fruit

[weary cliff]

That would shave it down, yeah.

2 dozen is hyperbolic, but only a little. Even discouting users like Luffy/Doffy who have limited or situational flight, it's well over a dozen

[queen arrow]

actually not

it's 11 right now

going by the wiki listing

[weary cliff]

I would hazard a guess they discount mounted flyers like BM, and to that I say it's not worth the time to argue over

Maybe some of the questionable logias like Kizaru

[pure raven]

I think its probably just winged zoan

As having wing means literally flying while, other ways may be called floating and levitating

[weary cliff]

I really just think Oda had Pell say some whack shit he didn't feel like sticking to

[pure raven]

Yes he is human after all, people her really believe he doesnt do mistakes , I never Saw someone point out a mistake here

[amber oar]

pretty sure OP was intended to be much shorter at the time Oda wrote that line

[quaint dove]

Weren’t the 5 flying fruits the 5 bird model fruits that could fly

[quaint dove]

Just Oda not being ready for the series to be very long then

But I think in terms of bird bird fruits we do only have 5 or less right?

[scenic thicket]

lol it could just b explained away as there are only five known fruits in the book tht have flying capabilities

[amber oar]

confirmed bird-bird we have three (Phoenix, Falcon, Albatross). Plus one non-canon
But one of those three can't fly, though we don't know if it's a df limitation or Morgans being a fat fuck. Should be the latter

albatross irl can fly, but they're super awkward to land

[modest skiff]

Headcanon for me is that he refuses to fly because he doesn't like it for some arrogant reason

[ancient vault]

Nah I think hes just to fat

[light pond]

2 non cannon the eagle and nue

Plus if we count both karasu and laffite def being birds

[pseudo citrus]

There are actually five fruit that can fly: paramecia, logia, zoan, ancient zoan, mythical zoan

[bronze otter]

wait, wasn't there supposed to be a break this week?

[pseudo citrus]

there is, the serialization is on break, but it still shipped out so we got leaks... chapter comes out after break week

[warm hollow]

I always took it to mean that pluton can just straight up sink islands. How? I don't know manga logic. But yeah that makes sense

If they shot it with pluton, it'd probably only leave a poneglyph standing

[zinc iris]

I'm pretty sure Morgans could not fly because he was holding the camera with his wings and did not want to stop taking photos

[forest rampart]

Yeah I don't really understand about it either but I'll say it probably works in similar way like Buster Call. Also, Crocodile said "one shot" of it was able to destroyed an island, which I think it makes sense to think that the island is still there now.@warm hollow

[zinc iris]

That's a lot to read, I will do it tomorrow after taking the exam

[warm hollow]

But it's be so anti climactic if we get there and all we see is a flat land and just a poneglyph standing in the middle

[forest rampart]

I just want to point out that AK is Raftel, and AK is still there all along, not that the island was destroyed into bits nor sunken to the sea. But I'll explain about whether it's sunken or not for a bit in the second part. I'll give time for Entry to read this part one first before posting it

But if anyone wanted to do any theories, feel free to do so since I'll just put this part one link under part two to compile everything in one.

[warm hollow]

(I think everyone figured out that ak and lt were same though)

[forest rampart]

I've asked others to see if they would take it as the same island or not but it seems there are still some that have doubts in them. So I thought I should clear their doubts first.

[teal nymph]

what is the main objective of cp0 in wano , is it only to capture WW and weapons ?

[fathom matrix]

It's more implied they're hoping he's dead

Also, do you think Kaido's more pissed off with Yamato eating that fruit, NOT JUST because it was super rare, but he was planning on giving it to one of his allstars?

Like, it was reserved for someone of really high command? And for a little kid to eat it, he was like "OH COME ON!"

Hell, maybe Kaido was gonna throw away Yamato at some point ot leave him somewhere, BUT the second he ate that fruit, Kaido couldn't let him go, even if he wanted to.

Yamato even said he was hungry, so Kaido probably didn't feed him enough or lacked any care to, and only started to feed him properly, because if he died, that fruit would have gone somewhere else, and he would have had to look for it all over again

[fickle violet]

Man screw what the fruit is topics already burnt out

Will Zoro get Kitetsu II is the question?

Will his Kitetsu break during mid battle and will Hitetsu toss him the Kitetsu in the midst of battle??

Find out next time on dragon ball piece

[ancient vault]

its clear he didnt intend on yamato eating it but someone else. Idk if its a calmity judging by the fact that all calamities are ancient zoans im assumikg that was the plan from the start

Would be weird if one calamity stood out with a mythical fruit

[ancient vault]

Kill whos who
Seastone sources
Get control pver wano
And let pirates defeat themselves

[pure raven]

There is a theory about the fact that Qillin is the only one who can kill a dragon based on some mythological story, and that kaido to kill himself some day, he would give that fruit to some one, like one of his crew, he didn't want that to be his own kid.

[fathom matrix]

Plus, I heard some quilin's have scales, inplying there are some without them

[snow epoch]

what do you guys think abt the moon arc theory 🥱

[fathom matrix]

I think the moon will play a role but as for an entire arc?....I'm not sure

[snow epoch]

i would love to see enel with advanced observation/had trained his df

[pure raven]

I think about the moon story not an arc

[snow epoch]

this would be cool/terrifying

[pure raven]

I mean the moon story would be mentioned in some arc later not having an arc for it

Maybe in the final war Enel would have learned the truth, in the moon vestige, then he come back to earth with the people he found in the moon at the final war arc, to participate in it against the WG taking revenge helping luffy crew maybe 😅🤔

[fathom matrix]

GM?

[pure raven]

WG

[fathom matrix]

I could see him maybe encountering Luffy and his crew, and all of them are about to attack, but Enel's like "fear not straw hats, I no longer hold a grudge. I still accended to the moon via my Fairy Vearth and I have my own army" and he'd probably say it wouldn't be very godly of him to keep any gripes, but Luffy might say off handedly he's gotten stronger and doesn't need to be made of rubber to kick his ass.

Maybe he would discuss what he's found out

I don't see it being an all battle again, as the characters have gotten stronger

[pure raven]

😅 You have some real imagination there, the most important is that there is possibilities of him coming back to earth and helping in the main plot,

[fathom matrix]

Probably not directly helping, more like he just says what he found out, and he's like "Oh, this is YOUR problem, I'm not getting involved"

[lapis prairie]

What’re the chances that this mink thing heals zoro’s eye?

[eternal cave]

My main concern with this theory is, if Laugh Tale is indeed the AK, wouldn’t the WG know of its location ? What is preventing them from getting to the final island and removing any evidence of the WG’s involvement or any incriminating details? Similar to Ohara, they destroyed all text and killed all people on the island. To me personally, Laugh Tale was / is a last ditch effort by the people of the AK. A hidden island, not easily found by the WG, where they could leave traces of their existence. Revealing all their secrets. So the structures might appear similar to the AK, because they set up camp on another island. Not to mention you bring up no one has stepped foot on the island in 800 years besides Roger and his crew, why wouldn’t the WG have stepped foot on the island as well ?
As for Pluton being the cause of destruction, the WG seems to favor Buster Calls, which they claim can destroy entire islands. The first Buster Call more than likely was used to destroy the AK. The Ancient weapons, from everything presented to us is a threat to the WG, something to rival their power. The ancient weapons are the tools of the ancient kingdom hence the similar names.
In terms of Ohara, nothing states the island still exists, Robin never revisits Ohara, the entire story has led us to believe there is no longer an Ohara island at all. We never hear tales of anyone revisiting Ohara again. For all intents and purposes Ohara is gone. In the Enies Lobby Arc we watch Enies Lobby crumble, the WG’s own stronghold. There’s no real reason to believe Ohara still stands. For Ohara to not have been completely destroyed removes crucial trauma from Robin’s backstory. In theory she could go back to the island and create graves for the people lost, rebuild the libraries, honor their memory on the island. Her not having the ability to do that is crucial to her character. Ohara is gone, forever. Same with the AK, the island can no longer stand. The WG is very keen about destroying any and all evidence pertaining to them and the void century . The poneglyphs only stand because the WG is unable to destroy them. An island however is not safe from destruction. Which even if they didn’t use a Buster call on the AK, in the past 100 years or so they could have summoned any of their more powerful DF users to completely destroy the ruins of the AK assuming it was on Laugh Tale. Akainu himself could demolish ruins, any of the Pacifista(s) and those are just two examples. The WG has no knowledge of where Laugh Tale is, because it wasn’t the Ak’s original island.

[lapis prairie]

You make a good point there about the WG not knowing where it is. I disagree with that you said about Ohara. It’s still an island. They burnt the tree, it’s desolate, but there is still rock, still ground. Robin doesn’t go back because she has a bounty on her head

[eternal cave]

When Robin escapes the Buster Call is still going on, we don’t see the end of the Buster call on her island. Also what constitutes an island ? Does any small formation of rock/ soil denote it as an island ? If so ,yeah sure ,there’s probably some pieces of Ohara floating around in the sea in that general area. But it’s not an “island” people can live on or take refugee on.
If Ohara still stood, Robin should now after her travels with the Strawhats have a dream or rebuilding the island.

[pure raven]

Normally if log pose can't indicate the final, island that means, normaly that island doesn't emit magnetic waves,
And we know magnetic wave are due to the island minerals? Doesn't that imply that raftel ( or ak) doesn't have any more minerals? If so why would that be the case?

[eternal cave]

In the new world islands hide their magnificent waves or have inconsistent ones. That’s why the single needle log pose don’t work. So I don’t think this mineral thing is valid.

[pure raven]

Ah yes i forgot that

[pure raven]

Then it means that raftel maybe has no island around it, only oceans and is in big solitude if it can't be even determined by the log pose of the new world

[eternal cave]

Punk hazard was close to Dressorsa and had no magnetic waves for the log pose to lock onto, law says it’s unable to pose to punk hazard.

[pure raven]

Yes but it was near the first log pose of the island near it

[eternal cave]

So idk if location has anything to do with the magnetic waves with the log pose, each island has its own special properties

[pure raven]

So they can assess that they are in the right way

[pure raven]

I just read how they can locate an island even if it's magnetic field is hidden, it's due to the fact that every island have some near islands that the log pose can indicate some times, so when sailing they can assess the right way due to those information taken from the near islands that surround the one they want to find

I don't know if I explained my self enough but here this picture can help

[eternal cave]

So I don’t know how accurate this is, but from this photo in the anime, laugh tale doesn’t seem completely isolated, and far away from other islands to say it’s so far away nothing can log pose to it. Idk IMO laugh tale was chosen because of its hidden properties to be the guardian of the AK’s secrets. The location of the island is important in itself. It shouldn’t be easy to find.

[eternal cave]

Wouldn’t that mean laugh tale has to be near something ?

[eternal cave]

Wait, this picture was a plan devised to avoid the islands during the Arc, someone had information on the location of the islands and guided them thru the sea. That wasn’t entirely log pose related was it ? Ugh I can’t remember who helped them was it pudding ???

[pure raven]

Anyway the main point is, if raftel was really around some island, in the final road of grand line, it would have been found just by using the New world log pose information of the near islands, + enough time of sailing.

• the fact they need 4 road poneglyph means, that what the poneglyph indicate isn't some near island to raftel, but 4 far-away locations.
  Because if those poneglyph indicate near islands of raftel it would meen they don't necessarily need 4 at once but just 2 for example and using a new world log pose to assess a perimeter of searching.
  I don't know if I explained my self enough and simplified my tought
  But all this put me to think that raftel is really very far form every other land in the ocean in a big solitude

.....
And if that's the case and that my theory is right, how did raftel end up in that place far away from any other land, if it was like supposed by some that ak is raftel, wouldn't that be illogical, because ak was probably very connected to the world

[eternal cave]

I can agree with that, laugh tale can’t be the AK if it’s isolated and hard to find

[forest rampart]

Ohara was still there. We could see the island still intact despite all the buildings and the tree of knowledge were destroyed. it was during the marines inspection that we got to see the island if you forgot. As to why WG didn't try to destroy the island again, i'll say why would there be a need to destroy an island that they've already destroyed in the past? And there could be other various reasons too. i don't really know the answers. But i'll say, we can't really say anything as for now since there's too little information about the AK/ Raftel itself.
As for Buster Call, i will say it's likely not even exist back then. The 20 allied kingdoms probably didn't have enough manpower(?), let alone the amount of warships if they have any.
There's no reason for Robin to visit Ohara, so i assume it would be the same for WG. You can argue that WG should try to get the One Piece but we don't even know what is that treasure is about.

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0398-002.png

That is Ohara after the Buster Call

[pure raven]

I think very highly of one of my theories, is that why the 20 kingdom win despite, the Ak being stronger and also having their own allies, is firstly due to maybe alabasta treason(pluton) , or and also maybe some 3rd party helping the 20 kingdom in the fight, because look, like the shandians and the people of the moon come to earth due to lack of resources in the moon, i suppose there is probably a 3rd/4th party coming from the other planet of the system around the earth we saw in the library of Ohara.
Maybe the AK was facing this 3rd party in the first place, because they come from space with hostility searching for ressource, then the 20 kingdom all betrayed earth people by helping this 3rd party against the Ak kingdom, in exchange for helping them, they become the rulers ( forming WG).

Let's be open minded like the people of the moon come to the earth, then why not the other planets? And then why having the galaxy system in the library, if not that's indicating something important, related to the plot clover is explaining

Look how clover is indicating with his hand while explaining toward the galaxy

[forest rampart]

Well, I don't really think there's another aliens from other moons or planets, other than moon people on the earth.

[pure raven]

We Saw some of them in the journey of Enel though

[cloud saddle]

there is also thing about Yggrasil World Tree and it's "worlds":

[pure raven]

There is aliens other than moons people

[forest rampart]

Oh yeah.. Unless they're on the moon

[pure raven]

Enel was helping the people (robots?) he found in the moon against them if I remember right no?
And they don't have to be from that specific moon, there are multiple one around the earth as you already saw in the library

[lapis prairie]

Doesn’t really contribute to the conversation, but I think Kidd will magnetize Rafael

Clearly a Raftel auto correct

[pure raven]

Why would he do that? Even though normally only luffy is gonna go there no one else other than his crew in my opinion

[modest skiff]

I don't think we can say vanish without a trace will always be the same mechanism. When we have islands that were tossed into the sky, it also makes sense that there may be a method of transporting islands reliably. One of my theories is that one of the weapons is defensive, allowing for islands to be moved or even shot into the sky. Part of that relies on there being more than 3 ancient weapons, which I think is true.

[modest skiff]

The wording here does not directly imply raftel and the AK are the same island. Worth noting we have no reason to assume the ancient kingdom only occupied one island. In fact, their island may have been split into other smaller islands. Perhaps one of those islands was brought to Wano

[modest skiff]

I think all of this can be explained by the ancient kingdom spanning multiple islands. Raftel can be mainly informational/storage while they may have another island that was their "base"

[modest skiff]

I think this implies a capability to leave the situation in some form rather than killed or vaporized. IMO this supports my theory that one of the weapons is able to shoot islands into the air or otherwise transport islands. I think the AK had a defensive capability that the WG never beat. They peaced out in some form

Thanks for the read, appreciate you writing all of that up

No one knows, plenty of theories and no one knows more than maybe

[brazen kelp]

the void century is about the treasure left by joy boy which roger claims to be the one piece. people who study the void century, or the poneglyphs, are killed because it leads to the treasure. and the void century is about a 100 year gap in the world in which joy boy lived and left his treasure in a place called laugh tale which is the last island in the new world or the second half of the grand line, also, the void century holds the 3 ancient weapons which could lead to the entire world being destroyed which is another reason why the government forbids the research of the void century. Joy Boy is unknown in the current timeline in the story but it is guessed that he is the first person to own the legendary strawhat which is kept with the government. the one that luffy has is the one that was wore by roger. but, the will of joy boy is believed to be the will of D which is why luffy is going to be the reason the one piece will be revealed and he will most likely become the pirate king. Luffy is the person that people believe will be the one roger was talking about which probably joy boy said the same thing. Joy boy could've been the first one to hold the gomu gomu no mi and since the government saw what joy boy did with it they wanted to keep it secret. thats when shanks stole it and the rest is history. the reason the void century exists in the first place is because imu chose to have it erased from history like what happened during the levely arc and the 5 elder guardians asked what name they should erase from history next.

sorry if its long and doesnt make sense, there isnt any other theory channel so i just decided to post it in here even though its not about anything in the current manga timeline

thanks man i did lots of research on the one piece wiki and tried to piece it all together like this the best way possible

[modest skiff]

I choose to think nothing when we have entirely too little info

[brazen kelp]

i just added more to it

i edited the message so it has more on the message look at the end of it

i made the first part of the prediction while i was watching dressrosa i think so now that i got done with the levely arc i think i got a better idea of whats going on

and thanks

thanks man i havent really found a good place to put this prediction so now that actual one piece fans are telling me its good thats good to know

[modest skiff]

General discussion is in the other channels, this one is for theories

[lilac mirage]

i wanna ask a thing.

there is a thoery ( dunno if its serious or just fun theory ). ppl say that will of D is actually the will to smile and laugh. but imo that doesnt apply to law. .. . help me

[forest rampart]

Sure. But I said

I don’t want to go too deep for this one so I decided to make a comparison with other similar terms to “without a trace” (跡形もない).

[forest rampart]

Well, the image of ancient kingdom in Clover's panel only show one island, so it's natural for us to assume there's only one/a kingdom.

[lilac mirage]

yes to me it did, but there are alot of such theories so i thought i'd confirm, thanks

[forest rampart]

Same amswer with the second reply. Also, we already seen those storage islands: Alabasta, Skypiea, FMI, Zou, Wano, n the last one is speculated to be in Elbaf (popular belief/theory).

[modest skiff]

I see it as reveling in danger (they smile in the worst situation) rather than just smiling

[lilac mirage]

ohh, forgot that part, now it makes more sense, hmm

[forest rampart]

Yeah, could think like that too, smth like Skypiea. But if you're curious of the location of Raftel, you have to wait for part two 😊

[modest skiff]

I think it’s on the bottom of the ocean in a bubble

[cloud saddle]

Theory about PAST 12 NAKAMA THEORIES
So there were 3 most popular 12 nakama (13 total) theories / patterns. We will talk about only 2, bcs 3rd one is irrelevant:
1) Alphabet Theory
**2) **Zodiac Theory
**3) **13 Cats Theory

1)
AB - Brook
CD - Chopper
EF - Franky
GH -
IJ - Jinbe
KL - Luffy
MN - Nami
OP -
QR - Robin
ST - Sanji
UV - Usopp
WX -
YZ - Zoro
.
So with that theory we have GH, OP and WX left. For GH there is pretty much no one that can fit. OP i think only Pekoms can fit and then WX is an X Drake.

2)
Rat -
Bull - Franky
Tiger - Zoro
Rabbit -
Dragon -
Snake - Usopp. Usopp was drawn connected to the only reptile in the color spread
Horse - Brook
Sheep - Sanji
Monkey - Luffy
Rooster - Robin
Dog - Chopper
Boar - Jinbe (Wild boar are Yama Kujira in Japan which translates to “mountain whale”)
Cat - Nami
.
So we have Rat, Rabbit and Dragon left. Rat could be Bellamy, Ceasar, Caribou. Dragon can be X Drake again, Yamato ( if he has dragon fruit related, Kirin has dragon scales for e.g). Rabbit can be Carrot.

---

CONCLUSION
There is only one person that fits for both of these theories and it is X Drake with WX and as dragon ( Dragon-Dragon Fruit, Model: Allosaurus). X Drake would fit even more if we go more deep into it, but thats not the point. The point is these 2 theories were only considered theoreis, bcs up until now, they were supporting each other. But what is happening now? They are pretty much crashed. You can't find a person that fits for GH, OP and also fits for rat, dragon or rabbit at the same time. So i think that these 2 "theories" are pretty much done.
.
LAST WORDS
I think that neither character that fits for any of these theories will join Straw Hats. That mean Carrot will not join, bcs she fits for Rabbit. Yamato will not join, if her fruit is related to dragon ( which i think it isn't, coz i think it's not kirin), Bellamy won't join, coz he fits for rat. X Drake won't join, coz he fits for both dragon and WX. That leaves us with:
1. Yamato ( without furit being related to dragon)
2. Smoker ? ( Mr morji fans would be happy)
3. The third one is a complete mystery. It could be also that only Yamato will join after all, which will cursh all 13 SHC theories.

[gusty cobalt]

I just want yamato to join definitively

[pure raven]

I don't understand the alphabet one plz explain

Is it based on the number of alphabet /2 = number of nakama with the first letter of the member +the one before or after it?

[ancient vault]

not joining

[cloud saddle]

I have no idea, people just divided alphabet to make 13 positions and 2 letters each position. Then they were adding SHC members to each position based on 2 letters.

[eternal cave]

Really late response but, we’ve seen the straw hats man ships with less than 20 people. Between 20 allied KINGDOMS I think they can pull together enough people to man some ships and shoot canon balls, if they didn’t have said man power, especially if Laugh tale is so isolated and far away from the other Kingdoms howd they destroy the AK? Sure you can argue Pluton, but then….shouldn’t the WG still have Pluton …..”Nefertari family stole it! / hid it from them”
Why wouldn’t the WG destroy Alabasta for taking Pluton …or even straight up ending that family line. The WG clearly wanted the blueprints for Pluton in water 7. They never had access to Pluton. I’m more inclined to believe the AK saw compassion in the ancestors of Alabasta near the end of their days, and trusted them with Pluton or the location of Pluton. The AK might have even sacrificed themselves for Alabasta. The Arabasta flag is even a sun which in these last few chapters have realized the significance of the sun symbol. So i don’t know…if the WG didn’t have Pluton, they had to have done something similar to a Buster call to end the AK excluding the idea of DF users.

[eternal cave]

Could the Sea Kings in theory pull islands ? The idea of islands being pulled / moved is pretty cool

[ancient vault]

Why wouldn’t the WG destroy Alabasta for taking Pluton …or even straight up ending that family line
I mean they kinda tried now

[ancient vault]

oars

[eternal cave]

They’re attempting to now, but why wait 800 years to end Alabasta if they took Pluton during the void century? Very late response, also if Pluton is still functional, that would make Alabasta a threat. An immediate threat to the WG. The blueprints were cause enough for them to infiltrate Water 7. The WG killed Ace because of his lineage. Why leave Alabasta alone knowing they have Pluton.

[ancient vault]

Idk if theyre attempting to kill nefertari because of pluton or simply because theyre traitors and cobra started asking weird questions

[eternal cave]

There’s something about Vivi we don’t know. Some connection, lineage factor or ability we don’t know of in regards to Vivi

Lmao imagine Vivi turns into Pluton a giant warship like person capable of destroying islands.

[cloud saddle]

ye, 3 princesses are ancient weapons. Rebekka is Uranus

[pure raven]

I think pluton was ak weapon stationed at alabasta and used by them,or built at alabasta maybe, then alabasta, betrayed the ak and joined hand with 19 kingdom, after that they didn't join them in mari joi because of guilt due to betrayal @ancient vault @eternal cave

[eternal cave]

But then what happens to Pluton proceeding those events. Would the WG allow Pluton to stay in the hands of Alabasta knowing its destructive power?

[pure raven]

Maybe pluton is deeply connected to alabasta due to some link, for its activation maybe? I'm just supposing

[pure raven]

Maybe for its activation for its destructive power, it needs the environment condition of alabasta I mean the temperature and the sun, or maybe the royals blood line

[forest rampart]

Maybe WG didn't really thought of getting and using an AWs at all including Pluton. I mean, they claimed that their existence are dangerous so why would they go against the rules that they've made for others? They should at least not posses and using those weapons, something that will make others to question about the WG rules.
As for Buster Call, I'll say they're really sneaky with that. They blamed Oharan and Robin as demons that tried to revive ancient weapons. And they blamed the Strawhats for the incident of EL in newspapers, but only some would know the truth especially pirates.
So maybe the Buster Call "isn't mean" to be a destructive weapon, like they probably hide about its existence to the public :KingShrug: .
As for why they suddenly wanted the blueprint of Pluton, that was Spandam's idea, not the WG.

[pure raven]

What if what happened to vivi is that she was taken, her and pluton by the WG, because for its activation it indeed need a special royal Nefertari blood line like shirahoshi, maybe the WG waited till now a special Nefertari royal to be born so they can take pluton
And that would explain everything

But all of this is just supposition based on very weak arguments 😅

So they never needed to fear pluton because it's activation conditions wasnt fulfilled during 800 year, up until now that vivi is born

[eternal cave]

The world you’re describing is post void century, when the WG has a public image to uphold. If at the start of the void century the AK is labeled an usurper, Devil , demon , calamity, traitor what ever reason they had to end the AK, no one would know who the ancient weapons belonged to. They change the narrative like you’ve pointed out many many times. They could seize the ancient weapons in secret and say “we had to take them! XYZ is evil! We’ll keep the world safe with these weapons!” The WG has never possessed the Ancient Weapons. They know of the ancient weapons power, but they have never held possession of them. @pure raven I LOVE the idea Pluton needs some sort of blood / lineage factor activation and that’s the only reason Pluton is tied to Alabasta. Possibly the WG didn’t know about the key to Pluton till now, maybe extracting knowledge from crocodile or having spies in Alabasta. Now Vivi must be dealt with to prevent the coming of Pluton

[pure raven]

Well we already know why they never took them, because the fact shirahoshi was meant to be born in the same time as the next real joyboy, means that the ancient weapons, where never meant to be activated and they all had conditions to be fulfilled so they can be found and activated, and those conditions where meant to coincides with the coming of the real joyboy (Luffy) and all that due to fate,
I think fate play a big role her that no one take in consideration, just remembee the fish women who was able to read the futur at the time of roger.
So fate was a big factor of having the condition of activating and the using of the Ancient weapon be fulfilled until now after 800 years
So the world government where never able to use them, and where probably unconscious of why they couldn't use them or activate them.
And that why roger said we come at the wrong time and Righley said we were too fast, that means that everything from the start were meant to coïncide with the coming of luffy.
So everything is planned, then we can make a theory of why all this is planned.
I say that maybe joy boy of 900 year ago, or some one in his time had a fruit that can control fate.
Let's be open minded, we had a fruit of traveling in time, then why not one that can control fate and pull all this together. @simple notch @forest rampart

....
I hope I explained my self well cause I wrote this as fast as I was thinking lol 😅

[sand sail]

But there haven't been any conditions for fulfillment yet. Shirahoshi was Poseidon from the moment she was born, and unlocked it long before Luffy was ever around. Her birth was the only condition, for Pluton it's just a ship.

[jolly lava]

the one piece is just making it to though the grand line in one piece😅

[sand sail]

They stated they came too early only because Shirahoshi hadn't been born yet, therefore Joyboy couldn't do whatever he needed to do. But the other weapons don't seem to have any such condition, otherwise there wouldn't be a point in people pursuing them in general

They didn't need to fear Pluton because they made reading and studying poneglyphs the most illegal thing next to punching a Celestial Dragon

[pure raven]

The " just" part for you isnt a '' just '' and for me

[sand sail]

And the instructions to its location and presumably activation would be on a poneglyph, such as the one being protected by the Nefertaris in Alabasta

Oh it's not "just" a ship as far as its status in the world or anything. But beyond just finding it, there doesn't seem to be any need for any special condition.

[pure raven]

The fact shirahoshi was born later to coïncide with the coming of luffy, doesn't interject with my statement 😕

[sand sail]

I can imagine maybe a special key or some kind of code or something, sure. But circumstantially, only Poseidon seems to be unique

[sand sail]

Sure, but you were supposing that it applies to all of the weapons. It only applies to Shirahoshi because she's a biological thing, they can't control when the power of Poseidon shows up

[weary cliff]

It is a leap to say that Pluton or Uranus were similarly limited to this moment in history. The WG has been involved in Pluton related plans for a long while

[pure raven]

Men you didn't read what we were talking about maybe from the start of our conversation me and chatrstar, firstly we supposed that pluton maybe need a condition to be activated and thats a special royal line of Nefertari, and that was vivi,

[sand sail]

She has the circumstance, but hers was only being born. Beyond that, Pluton just seems to be a vessel

[weary cliff]

I don't think anyone misunderstands the supposition, we're just disagreeing with it

[sand sail]

I read the convo, that's why I'm commenting lol. The World Government didn't really want Pluton, that's why they've never gone after it. There wasn't some special condition that needed to be had

Likewise, if that were the case, there's a decent chance blueprints wouldn't be made for it

[pure raven]

This is the problem its illogical to not want it from the start, thats what started all this discussion

[sand sail]

It's not though

They don't need Pluton lol

[pure raven]

For you but why wouldn't they need it, if supposedly its stronger than buster call, or and related to the ak 🙄

[sand sail]

It being related to the Ancient Kingdom is exactly why they would go out of their way to avoid it at all costs

Likewise, they spent the last 800 years filling the world with propaganda about it being a devastating weapon that HAS to be hidden away at all costs, or else the entire world falls

It got to the point where Water 7 only happened because Spandam went out of his way to beg and plead for a chance to get Pluton's blueprints

[pure raven]

Well I would have agreed more or less with all your previous statements, sorry but this is stupid just to avoid the real problem of "why"

[eternal cave]

In the stampede movie (I know it’s not canon) Roger says “we were too early” which is mentioned another in another flashback that is canon, so! Maybe there is some over arching fate / destiny wheel type of DF out there
Oh! @pure raven now that I remember, a couple of days ago you brought up the idea of Luffy getting a Weapon to deal with Kaido. You presented a really well thought out comparison to Journey to the West and Sun WuKong, revealing your idea Luffy might get a Staff of some sorts.
So I was watching the Stampede movie yesterday and realized that Sabo, Enel , and Urouge use Staffs. Also the Jitte Smoker uses is considered a short staff. Not to mention Goku from Dragon ball Z is HEAVILY influenced by Sun Wukong, would Oda turn Luffy into a character that’s so similar to Goku which is a competing title in Jump.
@sand sail why wouldn’t you fear a warship another island has? See this is what I’m usually bringing up, we can’t think about things in just a post void century sense, the events of the void century is important, what was the mindset of the WG BEFORE Poneglphys existed. IF pluton was indeed in The hands of Alabasta and the WG KNEW that …why eluding they fear it ??? Saying “poneglys are illegal to read” only applies AFTER the void century. After all is said and done. They accomplished their goal of ending the AK and established themselves would Pluton not be a threat??? If ancient Nefertiti family knew of Pluton and it’d activation the WG couldn’t just idly sit by and watch them. ….why….wouldn’t you need blueprints for something that needs a special activation to be started …whag ??? Lmao cars need blueprints and unless you Hotwire it they need a KEY a literal key to start it someone needs to build the object even if there is a predetermined lock on it’s usage without a special factor. Why wouldn’t the WG hunt down and use an island destroying warship. They’re clearly in the business of destroying islands and kingdoms

[sand sail]

The World Government straight up just didn't want it at all since the Void Century. They could have gone after it at any time, but clearly they just didn't, and it makes sense given how terrified they actually are of the weapon

[sand sail]

Then you genuinely haven't understood the government's position about the Void Century.

For some reason you're only thinking "Power = good" for them, that's not how they've ever thought. They're not going after it because going after it means an ancient weapon is now in the world, and that's something no one wanted

It's not about them having more power, the power of the marines is borderline absolute. As much as pirates are a menace, they are the underdogs of this conflict, undeniably

It's about now this horrifying, chaotic power is in the world and there's 0% guarantee of the government being able to fully control it. They went out of their way to make sure none of the ancient weapons were discovered and the poneglyphs couldn't be deciphered. What part of that mentality makes you think they'd have ever gone for it in the first place?

It's illegal for them to know how to read it too lmao

[pure raven]

The genuinely logic is that there is an object strong enough to do crazy damage, you rule the world, then you would want to have it either to seal it somewhere so that no one use it against you or use it urself

[sand sail]

If they find it that means pirates get to steal it. It's a power that no one should have.

That logic is one they have considered and decided against. You saying that doesn't make sense doesn't mean it's actually illogical, you're thinking of it from the most shallow perspective possible of "more power!". They're thinking "infrastructure". Pluton existing and being used ruins everything for them, and confirms the Void Century I imagine

[eternal cave]

The WG is 100% built on power, limit of knowledge and intimidation….a giant warship that says “I can end you in one shot” says a lot they wouldn’t even have to use it. It’s a deterrent. Like the admirals like the spreading of spreading in regards to Ohara. They use it once and out the fear of god into yoh.

[sand sail]

Except you've seen how they handle the Buster Call

How it's used exceedingly rarely, and they don't even want to do it

Why do you think they'd like having Pluton?

The government doesn't actually want to have to flex on anyone or anything. They don't look for conflict, and having Pluton won't end any

[pure raven]

I disagree completely, there is hundreds of argument I can present to prove this statement😕 is wrong

[sand sail]

There aren't, because that's how they feel about it. That's why they've spent 800 years doing everything stop prevent the weapons from ever existing

They don't need a power greater than a Buster Call or the admirals

[sand sail]

Present any.

I don't do "I could say this", either put it down or don't try to argue lol

[eternal cave]

Yet in the series we’ve seen the Buster call used about 2-3 times. More if you want to count the movies.
Having Pluton ends wars before they happen. Again it’s a deterrent. One use is all it takes. Same as the Buster call, the name alone strikes fear into people.

[sand sail]

And yet the Buster Call has been used.

And yet, the admirals have been dispatched.

A deterrent isn't a guarantee, and pirates won't just take that across the board as a reason to surrender

[pure raven]

They don't need it but they would need to have it at least, so they seal it somewhere, that no one would want or have the chance to built it or use it,
Men just compare which is safer between having a possible weapon in nature that any one any time can find it and use your are not in a position to be sure no one will be able to use it or find it / and having it in your hand, and be sure no one take it

[sand sail]

They've guaranteed for the last 800 years that no one could ever find and use it

So that's not really an argument, you're basically saying they should change their ways for no real reason except your opinion here

[pure raven]

No they didn't guarantee that's the point I stated in my theory, it was all due to fate and conditions to be fulfilled so that it can used, and found at the time of luffy coming

[sand sail]

But that's your theory, the fact of the series is it's been the government who has guaranteed it

[pure raven]

What's the form of guarantee they did?

[eternal cave]

…..so then why wouldn’t they need more power ….a bigger deterrent….Pluton doesn’t have to be the first choice for any engagement. Hell the Buster Call isn’t a first choice reaction. There’s a checks and balance system in place to even call one. All I’m saying is….why leave another country / island / kingdom in possession of Pluton. Even if they had no use for Pluton. It would make sense for the WG to either destroy pluton/ create their own for personal use in the event another pluton ever rose against them or have the ability to reproduce more. But in order to do that, they’d need to seek Ohhh and posses pluton and know how to use it. You can’t stop something if you don’t understand it

[sand sail]

Your theory has no real basis in the canon of the story, what we know is what you should define it with first.

[sand sail]

Outlawing poneglyphs and anything remotely related to the void century?

The only ways to actually get Pluton?

[sand sail]

Who says it's in anyone's possession now?

But yes, what you're saying here, that's actually why Water 7 happened.

Because someone convinced them that instead of just fearing it, it'd be smarter to have one on their side

[eternal cave]

Wasn’t this whole debate started with Alabasta having Pluton

[sand sail]

Alabasta having it was never confirmed, that was just the only place they knew how to look first

What it had was the poneglyph that told them where it was, but we never actually know for sure if that's indeed where they buried it.

Water 7 happens because Spandam convinces the government that having the blueprints to Pluton is actually the smarter idea. They thought about everything you guys are saying here and decided against it, which is the much better choice

Because that power existing at all is a danger to everyone who lives. It's silly to think there's any way to just 100% control it when they can't even 100% control their people.

[pure raven]

Well if you can yourself use the poneglyph and find it, and hide it, I wouldn't even risque having pirate that are not abiding my laws for 800 years that's completely illogic, you are defending something illogical that supposedly is the truth of what the world government did to protect pluton from being founded, yet you may have simply find it yourself and hide it as simple as that

[sand sail]

Likewise, the government wouldn't be taking that kind of monumental risk when they can just shut down all knowledge and make it so no one can use it even if they do find it.

[sand sail]

It's not illogical, it's an absolute ban on power that no one should allow to exist.

Recall how they treated the Gura Gura?

[pure raven]

This debate is going nowhere, you may be right we may be right neither your argument nor ours for me are 100% sure

[sand sail]

How it was a terrifying thing, how it wasn't a "let's go get that fruit once it's gone!" deal in any way at all despite them having every resource to do so?

[sand sail]

My argument is what the series has given us, dude. There's no disagreeing with it, you're trying to talk about why the decision they already made with the logical canonically in the story is wrong lol

[scenic thicket]

lol do u think robin will refuse to use the ancient weapon bc of her trauma of the buster call

[sand sail]

And that's fine, but you've gotta recognize that we're talking about mostly an established fact here

[sand sail]

Yeh, and this goes to my point too. That's how everyone feels about it, that's why the government doesn't want to actually use a Buster Call ever

They're not heartless monsters or just soulless creatures who don't feel, everyone would be terrified of Pluton, even the people firing it

Unless you're one of the monstrous, actual sadistic and psychopathic pirates who want it, lol

[scenic thicket]

they called it on a bunch of researchers

[red spoke]

when was the start of the argument lol i’m tryna read it

[scenic thicket]

lol “im not heartless i felt pain nd conflictions, but still wiped out an island”

[eternal cave]

You say this as if that’s the 100% logical choice and the WG is impervious to making faulty choices. As if no government, ruling body in any world has ever made the choice of creating a weapon powerful enough to end multiple lives and not decide “well if we don’t have it someone else might use it against us”
It’s better to have soemthing and not use it than you need something and not have it. There’s NO WAY you can tell me that having Pluton wouldn’t benefit the WG when there’s people literally turning into Dragons. No way. They got a Mf on their own team who can summon meteors, “but that giant ship? Naaaah” smh if the admirals decide to fight the WG what they gonna do????? Sit back and concede ??? Yeah I don’t think so 😂😂 your main argument is based upon a more realistic context. If DF users weren’t a thing. Maybe id agree but no. Not when you got Drake turning into a damn Trex, Kid being a human magnet, Blueno opening up doors in space. Pluton would benefit the WG so much.

[sand sail]

No, it's not the pain and confliction

It's the fear and horror lol

[sand sail]

Not one person you said except Kaido is consequential at all in this discussion And Kaido is an extreme exception to every rule out there lmao

[pure raven]

No you take the conclusion that where presented to us as complete truth, and not a possibility of having a hidden truth behind it from oda,
Them doing all that guarantee procedures, is only because supposedly they weren't able to find or use pluton, and that's when I say that's because it's due to some condition fulfilling that come only now after 900 years, and that's when I presented fate as a conclusion not as a 100% truth

[sand sail]

No, the ancient weapons aren't needed, hence why there's been a stalemated balance for years now

But it's not because of any sort of condition so far, beyond just needing to find the map and read it

Spandam gives them the exact same argument you are. The reason they do need Pluton now

[sand sail]

In fact, the reason this is kind of outdated to say

Is because Roger was the one who changed all of this

[eternal cave]

THEY SAY WE MUST HAVE THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPONS ON EARTH

[sand sail]

That's Spandam talking.

You sure got excited though lmao

This is my point, in the last 20 years, they did in fact recognize the need to find and hold Pluton because someone gave them a compelling argument

And the only compelling argument was the fact that they could not control THIS age of piracy, the one Roger started.

That's why they hadn't gone after it for the last 800 years, they did not actually need it.

NOW we have dragons flying around and people shaking the planet.

NOW we have the Emperors and their terror.

So yeah, NOW they need to get Pluton.

And that's a fact that they accept and recognize. But on top of that, as you can see from the scans, the other reason they don't is because they just don't know the blueprints exist.

Pluton itself is lost and buried. Getting the blueprints was exponentially more reasonable with a far higher chance of success. Presumably, no one in the government can read the poneglyphs, or if they can they just don't want to raise any ancient weapons, or else yeah they could've gone for them

But as you can see, that seems to be the case, because Spandam does in fact have to convince them to do it.

[scenic thicket]

whole point of the buster call was tht it was called in by an incompetent detached leadership who don’t care abt an indiscriminate attack on innocent civilians

[sand sail]

All of this is what I've been telling you before, it's not illogical for them to have done it, it was out of fear and an absolute sense of danger.

[pure raven]

The way he sayed you talk big action speak first, then he say find the blueprint then we will talk about it, means either it's them agreeing to it, or we suppose that they couldn't find it even in the 900 years themselves,....

[sand sail]

No lmao. The point of the Buster Call was the exact opposite, and it's also something done completely out of fear on the Government's part

[cloud saddle]

What are your thoughts on Scabbards. Are they all gonna die or no and why? Some people say they will all die.

[sand sail]

No, you're not understanding.

They didn't know the blueprints existed at all until that moment.

Spandam's the one who brings them the news that they exist and can be had

That's why Franky's past happens, this wasn't in fact info they had in the last 900 years.

The only thing they had was, maybe, knowledge about what it is and how it works. But we can't even say the government knew about the poneglyph in Alabasta, given the Nefetaris decided not to become Dragons themselves, let alone that they could have just gone to get it at any point

And likewise, instead of making some expedition when their entire goal was entirely purging the world of everything "Void Century", why would they ever try?

[eternal cave]

You have no frame of reference when the DF users came into action. 😐 literally none…..islands were being blown up while Roger was a pirate….oden’s wife is the oldest known DF user to date and she’s from like 800 years in the past sooooooo >_> who is to say what DF users were doing back then. There’s no reason why the WG wouldn’t have things like Pluton when DF users exist

[sand sail]

They only did it now because now they actually can't control the world anymore.

[sand sail]

Oh, fruit users coming into action is irrelevant.

No, our frame of reference is what the Gorosei reference; that it's from this current age of piracy that their troubles stem, and is the entire reason for them approving going for Pluton in the first place.

So...yeah, no argument there, the fact is that's how they decided to approach it. So no, they wouldn't have Pluton, because they went out of their way to make sure no one could have it in 900 years. And they didn't need it, clearly.

Now, they do, and so they approved

When those fruits came into play doesn't matter in the slightest, what matters is when Whitebeard did. When Roger did. When Kaido did.

Because those people using those fruits are wrecking the world, not the fruits existing.

[eternal cave]

Why would they be irrelevant?? Magma man, Light man, earthquake man, darkness man, fire man, ice man, gravity man, dragon man, dinosaur man, lightning man, metal man, some of those are natural forces in the world they reside in …..two admirals fought it out and changed 1 islands entire landscape …how are they not relevant

[sand sail]

Because the fruits existing aren't wrecking the world, it's how people use them. When those fruits came into existence or whoever first ate them doesn't matter at all, what matters is that over 30 years ago several of those pirates decided to dominate the ocean, and 22 years ago Roger caused thousands more to flood the seas.

You've got to understand this; it's not about those powers being a thing at all, it's about the hordes of pirates and the rampant piracy that the government can no longer regularly control

The fact that they were forced into a stalemated arms race balance between pirates, and this presumably occurring after Roger dies given that it's about the Emperors, should tell you how far they've fallen from absolute control and why they would need to go get a superweapon

Just like they had to use the SSG and warlords against the Emperors. Having said that, just because they're the government doesn't mean they can just track down Pluton at all, we have no idea how it was hidden or if it's even still something that can be found. If you want to talk circumstance, you could even say potentially it's hidden in a place that can only open at a designated time, even if you can use the ship

But we can't assume anyone in the government can actually read the glyphs, or that they'd believe Pluton was even intact and usable still, or that there was ever a point before Xebec where any kind of super weapon was even remotely deemed necessary.

And having said that even further, they've literally never needed one. Every pirate threat they've had has been something they could take care of except arguably Roger. There's no need to be able to wipe out an island for just one person when you can send people with the power to wipe islands to do the same thing with less collateral. Pluton is for the entire threat.

[eternal cave]

BUT YOU HAVE NO FRAME OF REFERENCE THAT NO ONE BEFORE THEM HAS USED THOSE POWERS TO CAUSE HAVOK ON THE WORLD YOU’RE MAKING THE ASSUMPTION THIS IS THE FIRST OF IT HAPPENING !!!!! 😂😂😂 like WHAT! WE LITERALLY DONT KNOW WHAT THE VOID CENTURY EVEN IS! THE VOID CENTURY COULD HAVE BEEN DF USER WAR YOU CANT JUST JUMP OUT THE GATE AND SAY “they’re irrelevant” when you literally don’t know that 😂😂😂 bruh this is ridiculous MY ENTIRE argument has been, if Pluton existed before the void century, there was no reason for the WG to leave it alone if they knew it’s whereabouts or how to operate it! That’s it! I don’t think the WG has knowledge of Plutons location. Celestial dragons are out here enslaving half the world, creating racism towards Fishmen, summoning Buster calls to destroy islands, killing anyone with a shred of knowledge, changing the narrative and creating villains out of heroes. But yeah 😂😂 Pluton is too much to handle yeah. As if being the strongest wasn’t their overall goal. Total dominance is what the WG wants.

[sand sail]

First off, you can chill way out on the caps, this will be your only warning. Second, we know this because that's specifically what the Gorosei reference as they accept, for the first time clearly, actually going for Pluton.

Total dominance, before Roger and arguably Xebec, is what the World Government seemed to have. It's like you're ignoring that, from what we actually saw of the full discussion of Pluton, the reason they condone it is because piracy has gotten to the point where it's out of control.

I also never said no one before them used those powers, where did you even get that from any of these messages? My entire point was, and I quote; "You've got to understand this; it's not about those powers being a thing at all, it's about the hordes of pirates and the rampant piracy that the government can no longer regularly control"

I'm curious where "no one's had those powers before!" came out of this.

Yes, NOW they do need further control. I'm sure they'll be popping up with an ancient weapon in chapters soon even, they fully recognize that they've lost the ability to quell piracy.

Before Roger created a countless influx of criminals? Clearly it wasn't that pressing.

I know a lack of slow mode gives me a bit of an advantage, so let me know if you'd like to continue this in #also-manga instead. Or, I could just do paragraphs to match, whichever you'd prefer.

[pure raven]

How can you be sure they didn't Know it's blueprint existed, when one of the gorosei said ( he does have a point, but...) wHich means they may already know of its existence (either they went after it and couldn't find it before, or something else more fishy) + he sayed find the blue print first then we talk can mean and I say '' can '' they did try but they couldn't find it, it's never said they necer knew blueprint existed or not
Also, spandam said its merely not enough to keep the weapons from reactivating, means they did as you said tried to guarantee no one find them, but that doesn't push away the fact they could have searched for it themselves before but didn't find them (the way the gorosei talked to spandam can make you suppose that) + the fact shirahoshi was born after 800 years to the Era of luffy means, all the other ancient weapons were meant to be found activated and used at the time of (the real joyboy) of due to fate, and that's my theory (maybe some one at joyboy time or joyboy himself used a devil fruit of controlling fate like a devil fruit controlling time existed 800 years existed its totally possible)
You can even consider the fact the gorosei want to find it by spandam help put also forward my theory..

[sand sail]

Aside from that, the only other thing they say is

[pure raven]

It's spandam saying that a low life of WG not the gorosei

[sand sail]

So it did exist, after all.

That's from the Gorosei. Spandam answers them in the next, beginning with "Yes"

Not one word mentioned from the Gorosei indicates or even remotely implies they'd been looking for Pluton at all. But you're correct, this is Spandam telling them suppression is not enough, which they thought it was

And using the new age of Piracy as evidence for it, to which they agree.

[pure raven]

It's spandam at the bar not the gorosei saying that

[sand sail]

No, that's the flashback happening lmao

That's the Gorosei saying it, not Spandam.

Like...dude, the flashback opens with Spandam answering that statement lol

[pure raven]

No thats the continuation of this, that's when he concluded it does exist

[sand sail]

#also-manga

[versed hamlet]

It starts off with the gorosei saying "so it did exist" and we know that cuz spandam not only answers that statement but that text bubble is leading into another flashback which means it cant be to anything prior

sorry bean i typed that while u said that

[sand sail]

Lmao it's all good, I just said the same thing anyway

[pure raven]

[sand sail]

@pure raven I'm serious, continue in #also-manga if you're trying to.

[pure raven]

they said, "it did exist after all" = (after all) that's prove they tried to find the blue print and put effort in that, but didn't find them all this time up until spandam said that to them

[gusty cobalt]

[split stone]

Theory: WG next business partner will be Buggy

[pure raven]

But the fact they try to guarantee no one find it, doesn't mean they themselves never tried to find them, because if you rule the world, you would want to have the strongest weapon, hide them or used them, not letting them roam in the wild, where anyone could find them.
But earlier 800 year ago, they may have tried to take a hold of them, after they may have seen their potential (spandam said reactivate so they did see their effect) but ended up not finding them, because the fate part played its role there: shirahoshi posseidon from that time appeared until now. It's intriguing isn't it?

• pluton if we suppose they did try to find it (after all), why take vivi now after maybe finding it? I supposed earlier that maybe vivi is like shirahoshi is a factor playing in Pluton working, I presented a theory that maybe to activate pluton, it needs a Nefertari special blood line, that appeared also at luffy's time....

So maybe like 800 years ago there was a fruit for traveling time, and roger time the fish woman was able to tell the futur maybe just maybe, some one at joyboy time or joyboy himself had a devil fruit for controlling fate and planning all this = thats my theory

@sand sail couldnt let this response at the other room cause its basically a theory more or less

[sand sail]

I really can't get behind a master puppeteer kind of theory like that. I'd hate if there were some devil fruit that actually controlled fate, it would cheapen so many things in the series.

Sure, Vivi or the Nefertaris can have some kind of special ability to activate Pluton, but Shirahoshi is an entirely different case. You're comparing something biological, which by default would actually need requirements to come about, to something people can willingly build any time they want if they just had blueprints.

Big thing here as well, Shirahoshi isn't the first Poseidon since the Void Century. Fate's role with her was not preventing people from getting the ancient weapon or using it, it was waiting for Luffy to pop up to fulfill whatever Joyboy failed to do

Poseidon incarnates every couple centuries in general

[copper frost]

My point exactly, fate is not gonna be involved in getting the blueprints for a ship, building it and then controlling it through instructions

[pure raven]

No I'm saying that shirahoshi incarnating posseidon and being born at this time is also played by the fate part

[sand sail]

Yes, I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm saying that has nothing to do with the government being unable to get Poseidon. It's not because of fate preventing them, Poseidon popped up repeatedly over the years

Your argument seems to be fate related, but only works if Poseidon skipped 800 years

[pure raven]

Anyway I myself don't believe in this 100% but I wouldn't be surprised if a devil fruit (with fate controlling power did exist 900 years ago)

[ancient vault]

thats worse than the time fruit 💀

[copper frost]

Yeah, that may be, for sure, but the point is that fate is not the factor that is gonna tie all the ancient weapons together, it's the people actively trying to find the weapons in most cases. The reason for Uranus especially being hidden for the most part moreso than poseidon or Pluton is another indication. Uranus has not even been brought into discussion in that sense

[pure raven]

The time fruit?

[sand sail]

I would be entirely shocked if a fruit that changed fate existed 900 years ago and the government hasn't flipped the world upside down a thousand times to find it

It would be the single most valuable thing to ever exist in the world

[ancient vault]

The time fruit is a huge hack that got nerfed and will never appear again. If you were able to go to the past with it it'd basically ruin the plot completely

[sand sail]

The ancient weapons wouldn't even be worth mentioning in the same sentence

Controlling destiny is a form of virtual omnipotence lol

[ancient vault]

I remember the theory that Kaido could control his luck

[copper frost]

Controlling destiny is something Oda would never attempt, it's the destiny of the age that the people shape, it's in writing in the very story

[sand sail]

Oh yeh, that reminds me of that one lady from Gold who could

[pure raven]

Yes maybe, but if posseidon normaly being born each 100 year this time it took 900 year just supposition I know its over exaggeration but who knows

[sand sail]

That feels about as far as that would go

But it didn't take 900 years for Poseidon to return

It took 900 years for Joyboy to

[ancient vault]

If a fate fruit exists do you know how many "ifs" and "why didnt" will come up

[copper frost]

A fate fruit would break the story and the world the same way a water fruit would break it

[ancient vault]

Its gonna be unbearable honestly especially a fate fruit in the past "why didnt he just do that? wouldve been a success then"

[ancient vault]

wouldve been the same if the time fruit could go into the past

[sand sail]

Yeh, something with probability manipulation would be better than something that full on controlled fate

But even that's pretty broken

[ancient vault]

was a nice limitation on it cause going to the past wouldve just been dumb stupid broken 💀

[copper frost]

You're literally breaking the fabric of the world and it's confines that you've built in order to justify something that can entirely bring the story into no odds territory

[pure raven]

Not really when the one hzaving it as you said can't control the litle thing but only the big picture, like letting the ancient weapon appearing at tee time of the real joy boy (luffy time)

[copper frost]

That is pretty egregious as well

You're simply breaking the story and the timeline lol even if the implications of what that power entails are just minor

[sand sail]

They don't need to control the little things, controlling the big things is just as bad

[ancient vault]

Joyboy is a title btw

[pure raven]

I know :(

[sand sail]

May not be able to dictate lives, but they can still change the planet forever

Joyboy might be a title

Definitely will be after Luffy steps into it at least lol

[ancient vault]

Luffy is only the "real" joyboy because time is working in his favor. Roger wouldve been the real joyboy if shirahoshi was already born

[pure raven]

And I said the real cause luffy would be the one doing what all the other s couldnt do

[ancient vault]

and other stuff worked in his favor at that time

[pure raven]

So he is the real destined one

[sand sail]

Luffy's not doing anything that someone else couldn't do tho

[pure raven]

And destined surprisly because ancient weapons start appearing just like that at this time of luffy, without trying to find a reason for why?

[sand sail]

Roger, for example, could have entirely fulfilled it. Better than Luffy actually lol. But then, Shirahoshi wasn't born. That's the only real hitch, if Kid were friends with her then he'd be the next Joyboy

But it's not the ancient weapons

It's just Shirahoshi

[pure raven]

Yes it's just fate playing it and giving luffy all the best scenarios just like that

[ancient vault]

Or its luffys character because someone like kid is not going to be friends with shirahoshi

[sand sail]

Yeh, the point is Luffy's only unique because he's gone out of his way to make friends, but what needs to happen so far seems to be something that could be done by anyone who could do the same

[ancient vault]

Thats why im saying joyboy is a title. Anyone can have those characteristics, if kid chose to be a bit more friendly and joyful he mightve been the next joyboy but my boi is starting fights whereever he goes and not making any friends

[sand sail]

Conqueror's, being a D. and such don't seem to be requirements in any way

[weary cliff]

By the way the sea kings were talking, no it couldn't be just any guy who did x and y thing. There was going to be a specific person born who was going to follow up on the prophecy

[sand sail]

Well yeh, now it'll be a title, I just wouldn't be surprised if it were someone's name that just got passed on

[ancient vault]

I also think kaido is misunderstanding it a bit. He seems to connect it to strength

[pure raven]

You know that even poneglyph can be considered as fate being controlled and tracing luffy pat, so why accepting it, and not a fate devil fruit theory, like it's doesn't have to be omnipotent,

[sand sail]

Fate is fine as a quality, fate directed by anyone in particular is not

[ancient vault]

They were talking about Shirahoshi being born. Not the other one being born. It was about the two meeting. The other guy couldve been roger if he lived longer he mightve been the next king to meet and befriend shirahoshi

[sand sail]

Likewise, Luffy and Shirahoshi being friends as a part of destiny isn't the same as Pluton just not being hidden

[ancient vault]

tho idk if 76 year old roger is suited for that

[weary cliff]

It was both. Shirahoshi being born and the other in a distant sea

[pure raven]

I love you men for bringing that cause I was out of argument for a moment lol

[pure raven]

I also said pluton needs vivi (theory)

[modest skiff]

I think the people like Kaido only know about what Joyboy supposedly does. I think everyone is making inferences based on stories or glyphs or whatever that involve him. That’s why Kaido is like “guess it’s not that guy, since Joyboy is supposedly (blank)”

[sand sail]

Yeh, but so far, nothing really points to Vivi or the Nefertaris needing to be involved in general with Pluton

[ancient vault]

I think the only thing he knows is joyboy is gonna open wano

[sand sail]

Worse, the fact that it was made in Water 7 and its blueprints reside there point heavily to that just not being a thing in the end

[ancient vault]

Thats why hes assuming if luffy didnt make it it cant be luffy

[sand sail]

Alabasta is just where it seems to have ended up

[modest skiff]

Yeah I think he’s just inserting himself into the situation due to Joyboy

[sand sail]

Supposedly, anyway.

[ancient vault]

u right

[pure raven]

By the way the sea kings were talking, no it couldn't be just any guy who did x and y thing. There was going to be a specific person born who was going to follow up on the prophecy

Guys you disnt respond to this argument enough, it does prove the fate part a litle from ( @weary cliff)

[sand sail]

No one's saying fate doesn't play a part

[ancient vault]

We'll see because rogers and luffys shared dream is also pretty weird coincidence

[sand sail]

We're saying it wasn't only Luffy and no possible other person. Luffy checked all the boxes, but that doesn't mean he was the only one holding the pen

[ancient vault]

fate exists thats undeniable in OP

[sand sail]

Like swrml said, the only reason it wasn't Roger was because he was just a little too early. Hell, it could've been Whitebeard if he had any mind to do it

It probably will be Blackbeard lol

[pure raven]

No but it was the one holding the fate power who made those pen possible for all of them making it in time all together.
And that's why roger Said it wasn't time yet
==, it was planned from the start

[sand sail]

He said it wasn't time yet because the person they needed literally didn't exist yet lol

[pure raven]

Yeah that's my point lol

And for me not only one but also vivi

[sand sail]

Yeah, no one's going to be pulling those strings though

Like, at worst we may get something outrageous like Im somehow lived from back then and was trying to direct things this whole time

[pure raven]

Like seeing a fruit power travel in time but fate power impossible? , but for me a lot of dots connect for its existence, not that I'm 100% sure

[sand sail]

Traveling one way through time and being unable to return is fine. You could have a power where you just freeze yourself for a hundred years to accomplish the same thing. Being able to change or manipulate fate creates a god.

[pure raven]

Men to this argument I said , maybe the fate power has also a lot of limits like able to only influence some really small factors,
Also I have a very solid arguments, did you forget the voice of everything, I don't remember if it's nature has been identified, but I'm starting to think maybe it's related to the one holding the fate power 900 years ago? @sand sail @weary cliff @ancient vault what do you think, its ultimately a possible argument

[sand sail]

The Voice of All Things, we have no idea. Apparently it's biological to some degree, since it's innate to a full tribe of folks

You're not understanding the scope of what that could mean tho, griseo. All of creation is nothing but the sum total of really small factors

[ancient vault]

i gotta go now might answer later
cya

[sand sail]

If they can only affect really small things, the only way it becomes not broken is if they can only do it like once a month or something

[pure raven]

You see what you are saying is based on irl standards not one piece but any way, I will build up my theory and write it in an organized way with full detailed arguments then present it here, after that we will discuss it, cause here I'm saying a lot of theories in a discussion without going really anywhere.

[sand sail]

It doesn't have to be IRL or One piece, it's just the nature of the power. Only affecting small things, literally no matter how you put it, can still only be godlike if it's fate related. You have to restrict in some other way if you want that in

[pure raven]

That goes with it I agree

[sand sail]

For example, the luck power that Oda made for Gold. That had constraints on it because that gives literally the same problem as being able to command fate, and Oda made it work

It's not just that a fate fruit would be horrible, it's that the way you've presented it would be. If you want to make it work, make it work in a way that doesn't basically invalidate most of the efforts of our heroes

[pure raven]

And it may be the casz of fate fruit also but let's continue after I organize my theory and develop it enough

[sand sail]

'Cause not many people will enjoy it if it turns out someone was watching Luffy's back this whole time, and he never actually had to fear death

Sure, @ me when you drop it and we can discuss

[pure raven]

Ok

[cloud saddle]

Do you have any idea of what that symbol means? It could be 2 different ones, but still.

[lapis prairie]

Isn't it his Jolly Roger?

[cloud saddle]

yes

[lapis prairie]

Maybe the symbol for SWORD

The middle bit

[cloud saddle]

I think it isn't. Sakazuki had a sword tatoo on his arm for e.g. Also if there is more members then just 2, then it would be strange for them to show their symbol that open, when it is a secret organization

[lucid flare]

oh yeah i saw this theory from twitter it goes that in the god valley incident when Zebec was about to die Big Mom transplanted his soul into his son Marshall D. Teach this shows why he was so like zebec and when white beard tried to kill him he didnt smile like other Ds because he is a fake D

[reef grotto]

ugh, it'd be lame if blackbeard was a fake D

I liked the idea that being a D doesn't automatically make you good

it just makes you an enemy of the gods

[honest hedge]

weird theory

[queen arrow]

Big Mom can't put souls in to people

[pure raven]

A fake D? Why

[lucid flare]

Because every D seems to die with a smile on third face

[pure raven]

But then from where the D in his name come from?

[craggy pumice]

so Law is a fake D too

[pure raven]

But then from where the D in his name come from?

[lucid flare]

Either he’s pretending to be like zebec

Like naming his ship after him

Making his hideout the one that zebec used

[weary cliff]

Am i misremembering a time Doffy was about to cap Law and he wasn't smiling?

[craggy pumice]

thats what I'm saying

@lucid flare

[reef grotto]

from this page it seems like law is ashamed that his plan didn't work and luffy's gonna beat doflamingo

he's already safe, it's after luffy put his foot under dofla's

he knows he isn't dying yet

[weary cliff]

This isn't the best example yeah, but to my knowledge there was never a scene of Law smiling at death, despite it coming close with Doffy

[craggy pumice]

its the only example

[weary cliff]

He never had a gun on Law?

[craggy pumice]

also if a D. would be about to get saved by another one because he himself couldnt make it, I feel like that also would be a situation where he smiled

[pure raven]

Brook and Robin vs Maria reminds me of this.

And I keep thinking at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS9nYT0JG9w They also had another "villain" at the end of Thriller Bark.

Maybe some foreshadowing? 🤔

[cloud saddle]

Well I just saw that in 2013 someone made a new alphabet pattern. It was at the time that 697 chapter was released, so it was at Punk Hazard arc. Luffy already asked Jinbe to join. According to this guy, there will be 13 straw hats and the pattern for the next 4 Straw Hats from new world is that their names will start with K, X, J and Y.
I know it might be random but, so far it is the most possible pattern i've seen, that was predicted over 8 years ago.
So for the 3 letters it's easy:

• Yamato
• Jinbe
• X Drake
• K I don't rly know. Could be anyone at this point.

---

Why X Drake? Because he is the only character in the One Piece with and X at the start. He is also always called X Drake and not just simply Drake.

[weary cliff]

This is pretty ridiculous. At least number theory has plausible connections that are relatable to it's native audience. Using the latin alphabet to justify why there will be so many SH's shoehorned into the final few arcs just makes no sense.

Wouldn't this mean there would be a k and x before Jinbei? Time already disproved it

[pure raven]

X drake is also said in a sbs to change the marines/world soon

[cloud saddle]

This pattern had 2 parts. First what letters are right, second where to put them (the order of joining). Althought this might be wrong with the second part, the first part at this moment is believable.

[waxen dust]

One Piece theorist should be a requirement to apply for a job as a Criminal Detective.

[pulsar minnow]

K for Kuma who knows the theory theory no mi is strong

[native obsidian]

probably

[weary cliff]

Kuma is as good as dead. Might be literally dead

[clear ridge]

I taught that too before but I can’t find which chapter is.

[reef grotto]

if the y is for yamato that can't be the case

[reef grotto]

what's the pattern exactly?

why these letters specifically?

[fervent loom]

im in chapter 270 and my theory is luffy will find the one piece at the end

[weary cliff]

There sure doesn't seem to be one, eh

[ember trench]

Kuma, X Drake, Yamato, and John Giant for straw hat

J is for Jinbe nvm

[versed hamlet]

K could be for Karrot instead

[proven igloo]

k = katakuri?? After big mom dies

[rigid wadi]

Kiku

[pure raven]

K for Karibou

[queen arrow]

K is for Kid

[proven igloo]

k for kaido

[versed hamlet]

K could be for kinemon

[visual merlin]

K for there's not going to be a character in the strawhats that starts with K

[dusky acorn]

Agred, definitely think the theory is reaching for a pattern that isn't there. Can't see us getting nearly that many Straw Hats anyways

I guess I could understand why people would at first think we'd be getting so many recruits back when the NW first started, some probably expected it to roughly match the amount we got in Paradise/EB or soemthing

It's crazy to look back at how far off theories can be in retrospect, though

[visual merlin]

I don't know if I missed anything but what is the reason they'd start with those letters anyway?

Also, it seems like the guy ordered it here, and we know there's no K or X that came before Jinbe

[ember trench]

Jinbe wasn’t a member back then

[visual merlin]

I know Im saying this would be wrong if this was meant to be the order, but I guess the main idea is it'd be those letters

[dense wing]

Kuma and X Drake joining because this is in order we first meet the characters

[visual merlin]

to which Im still confused as to why it would be those letters

[dusky acorn]

I thought it was just about filling in the first letters of the alphabet we don't have already, as I don't see any duplicate letters with the ones he added

But his hypothesis is 13 crew members, not 26. I really don't know why those specifically

[rigid wadi]

Love how a random writes a random theory in 2013 and letters ends Up giving debate in a discord in 2021

[ancient vault]

I can see 13 members

[forest rampart]

that nekomamushi cover page

[ancient vault]

i mean the 4 nakana per sea pattern

[forest rampart]

yea, could fit that patterns too

i remember a post on reddit of that cats cover page, saying that two of them seems like they're just tagging along rather than they're the actual SHs.

also, 4 from east blue, 4 from paradise, 4 from new world (jinbei, carrot, tama, yamato)

[native obsidian]

my same hypothesis

[pure raven]

i dont think tama will join them

i think they'll meet someone else in a future arc if it gonna be 4 crewmates from the new world

tama is too young

[forest rampart]

Tell that to baby shanks, buggy (n mihawk) on Roger's ship. Also don't forget baby momo and baby hiyori on WB's ship.

[agile tangle]

Luffy did mention that 10 should be enough

In the first chapter I think

[modest skiff]

He said at least 10

[agile tangle]

Ah

[modest skiff]

I also don’t think Oda would ever make a worse decision just to keep some number thing

[pseudo citrus]

Small theory: at Oden's execution, he said "It is imperative that I survive". Maybe he (incorrectly?) believed that part of the prophecy applied to him, so in his journal he wrote something like "I am the only one who can fight Kaido and open Wano for Joyboy" (not sure of the best wording here, just spitballing). This would explain why Yamato is so obsessed with becoming Oden: it's not a weird LARP thing, it's Yamato trying to live up to what Oden thought only he could accomplish.

[ember trench]

He wouldn’t. He’s probably known what all the powers for the crew would be for a very long time.

And the power choices and number pun may have even been decided on together.

[grand walrus]

theory:
the lost century is a reference to the bronze age collapse and the sea peoples who may or may have not been pirates. They are most commonly understood to be seafaring raiders

if this is true, then the lost century was caused by pirates, pirates were the main antagonists. it may be that the kingdoms in power were evil to begin with but the situation was stable and pirates pillaged like crazy. we could say it was a great pirate age

further evidence supporting this theory: information about the sea peoples is very hard to find

[robust sky]

i can see 10 official members aside from luffy and 3 walk in/sneak members hahahah (more like a cabin member like coby before for Tama)

[pure raven]

This a nice theory but it's not based on any enough information and logical arguments from the manga, it may be true, but that wouldn't explain the fight between the ak and the other kingdoms

[worn radish]

I got a theory on Blackbeard’s devil fruit thing, he has 2 devil fruits from different categories, so what if you can only have one zoan, paramecia or logia fruit but you can have one from each category?

[robust sky]

not bad hahaha

[worn radish]

It would really explain a lot of other mystery powers too

[robust sky]

well, it was already clear that BB body is not normal so most of the guys here will have an argument with it
hahahaha

[pure raven]

Mixing logia and zoan would be awesome

[worn radish]

Maybe they talkin bout how fat he is

Mans built different in the wrong way

[pure raven]

What's your arguments? Then

[robust sky]

um i got nothing to say its not mine hahahaha

[pure raven]

I have a theory that Shakky was in the Rocks Pirates, she mentioned that she had been chased by Garp before and she hadn't set sail in 40 years, which just about lines up with when the Rocks Pirates disbanded. Someone asked Oda this in the SBS and he dodged the question. Kinda Sus Oda.

[robust sky]

what can you say? @pure raven

[pure raven]

fire hippo

So do you think that we will see Earth and Water Logia fruits in the future? For now 100% is only Fire Fruit, which was eaten by Sabo, then we have Air Fruit, which could technically be eaten by Dragon. Also there are a lot of fruits that came out of this 4 elements like:

• Ice Kuzan (from Water)
• Snow Monet ( from Water)
• Sand Crocodile ( from Earth)
• **Swamp Caribou **(from Earth)
• **Gas Gastinoo **( from Air)
• Smoke Smoker ( from Air)
• Magma Sakazuki (from Fire)
  and then we have 3 fruits that have nothing to do with 4 elements:
• Darkness
• **Light and Lightning **

---

So far there is only one fruit with original element and that is Mera Mera no Mi. I think Dragon has the most potential for clear Air / Wind Fruit and then if it turns out to be true, would we encounter clear Water and clear Earth fruits in the future?

[robust sky]

we have marco for that hahaha

[pure raven]

Monet's fruit could be water or air

[pure raven]

Also I don't see a water fruit ever happening

[ancient vault]

A water fruit will never exist

[pure raven]

why is that? Only ocean water works vs DF users, normal water is doing nothing. Robin was bathing just fine for e.g, same with Chopper and others.

[ancient vault]

!water

[lone hedge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/180728779365154816/545828296559034390/unknown-9.png

[ancient vault]

The "sea" here can refer to anything from rivers, pools and baths to any kind of standing water.

[ancient vault]

And what do you think someone with a water fruit would do lol. Not bend ocean water? Either way it would break rules all over the place and create plotholes

[robust sky]

that "Twice in a year" got me hahahahahahahaahahahahahahah

[pure raven]

Its a well known theory, that has very high chance cause there is even her figure like in a poster of the rocks pirate crew

[pure raven]

Same with Doctorine and the Beetle guy who trained Ussop

[robust sky]

yeah i also read about that hahahahah
just wanna hear your opinion hahahah

[pure raven]

Yes true I just saw it,

[robust sky]

wait, they part of xebec?

[pure raven]

Possibly

That also explains why Kureha knows about the Will of D.

[robust sky]

hmmm, makes sense tho, damn it a flash back badly needs it hahaha

revealing all characters

[pure raven]

that would take like 500 chapters

500 chapter is more or less 10 years lol, I hope you were just exaggerating

yeah

i was

[oak mural]

500 chap is like 13 years

and one piece is ending in way less than that

[pure raven]

probably

oda said five more years 19 years ago

Yeah, cause I don't want to watch it with my grandchildrens

I do

i'll read them chapters for bedtime stories

And instead of Saturday Morning Cartoons it's Saturday All Day One Piece

[runic osprey]

How do you guys think the wano arc will end? Do you think they will be able to take down big mom and kaido because thats gonna have huge impact on the world.

[quaint relic]

No

[pure raven]

I think no one will beat big mom in the end, also, I think when luffy will end up knocking kaido to a K.O, the Cp will try to do something + probably the marine will arrive at that time, to clean after them, at that time big mom will save kaido for the second time of his life and flee, like in the war the rocks with Roger, now she save him in the war with luffy,

[runic osprey]

Cp is there to confirm who who’s dead but if they see kaido Defeated i think they will capture him.

[pure raven]

I don't think anyone will capture kaido or kill him or imprison him, he is too big and important of a character,+ it has been said they tried multiple time to execute him but they always failed,
I think in my point of view big mom will save kaido, and flee from the island, and they will form a real alliance after wano (more like a new rocks crew, if I may say)
I think kaido has yet a role to play in the plot, and I doubt a second yonko will die after white beard for the moment

[pure raven]

yeah, and kaido and big mom will probably be at the final war

[weary cliff]

Probably. But man it'd be neat if Kaido got soru soru no mi'd and that's how he shows up at the final war

[queen arrow]

what

[crude ridge]

he mean that if big mom uses her df powers on kaido

[queen arrow]

how

[weary cliff]

Homie Kaido. Have your cake, eat it too. Actually capitalize on an alliance betrayal

[pure raven]

yeah

[queen arrow]

the homie wouldn't be Kaido

[crude ridge]

Yk now that i think about it, isnt moria and big moms dfs a bit similar in a way?

[pure raven]

i bet kaido will betray big mom and they'll have a giant duel

[weary cliff]

No, not as such. Just a different way to keep him in the story

[queen arrow]

i don't see how you could consider that Kaido still being around

[pure raven]

and bartolomeo will defeat jesus burgess

[weary cliff]

Sort of yeah. You have some fruits that are like stronger versions of another, and this is kind of like that

[pure raven]

[reef grotto]

which sbs?

[reef grotto]

which poster?

[reef grotto]

why them too?

[pure raven]

i didnt see the chapter number

[reef grotto]

wtf where is this from

[ancient vault]

its fanmade lol

[reef grotto]

lmao

[ancient vault]

But well shakky is anything but confirmed at this point. Lots of evidence pointing towards her being a part of rocks crew

[pure raven]

Didn't know that lol 😅 I feel dump here

[queen arrow]

holy fuck the Artur piece image is being circled around as real again

[pure raven]

[grizzled fog]

[amber oar]

the darkest timeline

[queen arrow]

!theories

[lone hedge]

Please refrain from using #manga-theories for any joke theories you may have. This channel is strictly for serious discussion on the realm of possibilities one truly believes in, and can explain in a manner that conveys why. Please consider this a general warning.

[hidden oxide]

Hey I recently got caught up with the manga, what are the common theories on the end of Wano's arc? Mainly regarding Kaido's defeat

[dusky acorn]

The main theory behind Kaido's defeat is that he dies, as to by whom, there isn't really a solid hypothesis on that

I see CP0 thrown around, but they're also likely to capture him

[queen arrow]

my personal theory is that Luffy will fight him and win

[dusky acorn]

He's known to have gone through experiments by Vegapunk, could be procured for that kind of purpose again

[queen arrow]

idk about you guys but that seems pretty likely, with Luffy saying he'll fight him and win a lot

[grizzled fog]

I’m thinking cp0 makes their move at the end to clean up, one member goes after luffy to try snd finish him while he’s weakened. One goes to confirm kaido’s death, one goes after who’s who…

[pure raven]

kaido aint dying

[faint sparrow]

if he aint dying then what will he do for the rest of one piece? just chase the strawhats?

[dusky acorn]

Can you guys type in legible words

[sullen epoch]

sorry

[grand dome]

Well

[dusky acorn]

What was just discussed prior, he could be captured

[faint sparrow]

beseder

[queen arrow]

with "eligible words" i'm pretty sure Shimon meant english

[dusky acorn]

It's fine now

You still think G5 is happening?

I honestly don't know when Luffy could have had a chance to learn it

[faint sparrow]

i think he'll awaken and thats it

[dusky acorn]

But anyway, I don't think toughness is necessarily what Luffy needs

[faint sparrow]

no he said that he learned it before hand

[dusky acorn]

Yeah, Gear 2 and 3 were pretty much out of nowehre for us, but there had to be some testing behind the scenes that we just didn't get to see

And Gear 4, the level above those actually took plenty of time to learn

[ancient vault]

Who cares about gear 5 man. Kaido is born/dies in ringo is cooler

[dusky acorn]

That train of thought makes me believe G5 would take a while too.

Back to your point about it giving Luffy a durable body though, I was going to say Luffy focusing on his offensive capabilities are what's been highlighted for him to need all throughout the arc

In fact, he hasn't really used these haki in a purely defensive manner besides like, at most it's been deflecting attacks such as his sandal clash

[faint sparrow]

how will he increase his offensive abilities?

[dusky acorn]

All I can say is he gets a further grasp on Conquerors haki

[faint sparrow]

not gonna happen

maybe he will be able to produce molten rubber after the awakening

[pure raven]

an actual alliance with big mom and then probably betray her

[pure raven]

I don't think only conqueror haki, but he will further grasp haki in overall, because don't forget, that he awakened all 3 hakis, in less than 2 arc, when 2 of them in one arc, so in my opinion the next move will be incorporating haki in overall with his devil fruit in some way, that I don't want to explain...(cause it may start a debate that I dontv have the energy⚡⚡ for it right now 😅)
The only thing I can say now😏, is that he learned advanced haki of the 3 hakis in a continuously consistent pace, which lead me to have some doubt or feeling🤔, that maybe the next step is merging haki in overall with his devil fruit due to some link😶, that luffy felt in his lastest fight against kaido, and probably oda would explain how luffy discovered that, by using a flash back of his lastest fight against him, that would also explain why oda skipped their fight and didn't show it to us👀, because it would probably be a material to explain luffy next growth☠️

[dusky acorn]

It's hard to discuss this without knowing exactly what you're getting at, but I simply can't agree with there being any specific synchronisation of the 3 haki and Luffy's fruit. He already makes the most of all 3, as they coexist in their own ways. If you don't want to get into details for a bigger discussion right now, that's okay

I agree with Luffy having some sort of flashback to his past fight with Kaido though

Where something clicks about his past failure, and he just goes about this fight better

[pure raven]

It's haki being synchronized with his devil fruit not the 3 type between themselves,
I can say that the only big flaw luffy in my opinion has right now is not gear 4 being weak against kaido its completely the contrary, nor his conqueror haki being weak, cause he already learned it and used it, it can't become stronger because it's power is due to luffy's potential flaw of haki and that can't be developed overnight, and I don't think his conqueror haki power is any weaker than kaido,
The problem is the way luffy fight with ryou and conqueror haki is not efficient enough.

• the fact that he learned awakening 3 hakis in a continuous none stop way of pacing, which in my opinion was a litle fast, put me to think this is not the end, and that the next step is probably merging advanced haki with his devil fruit, like he did merge haki of armement with his gear 4.
  Now this is my theory in overall, what I can't explain for now is my theory in how luffy will do the act of merging advanced haki with his devil fruit (cause it may start a polemic) 😅

[queen arrow]

awakened what

[pure raven]

I mean by that coating, ryou and coating of conqueror haki....

[weary cliff]

Advanced use of haki

[dusky acorn]

nor his conqueror haki being weak, cause he already learned it and used it, it can't become stronger because it's power is due to luffy's potential flaw of haki and that can't be developed overnight, and I don't think his conqueror haki power is any weaker than kaido

I think the opposite. Luffy's Conquerors haki becoming stronger in this arc (literally overnight) is exactly what's being set up, and it paling in comparison to Kaido's use of the haki is what's been established. Ever since Luffy learned it, they'd been consistently clashing with each other whilst using it, then Kaido goes and calls his use crude and clumsy, it's fair to say that specific application was the big difference maker between them

[pure raven]

That's what I say, we agree on this both, that the specific application was the big difference.
But I don't agree about what you said, on luffy's conquerors haki becoming stronger overnight
, it's not becoming stronger, it's just him learning the next level, it's not luffy's conqueror haki getting more raw power. I hope I explained my point of view enough.
I think the difference that lay in our understanding of the situation is in the term of " use".
You understand it as luffy's clumsiness is due to conquerors haki being badly applicated, (without maybe taking in consideration his devil fruit)
And me understanding luffy is badly using conqueror haki due to him not applicating it in the best way with his devil fruit. (in a bad way)

... By raw power I mean his natural potential of conqueror haki

[worn portal]

can advanced conquerour haki know out a yonko

knock

[weary cliff]

What people generally mean by "advanced" is the ability to coat your attacks with it. In that case, yes. But the standard pulse thing we see would never effect a yonkou

[dusky acorn]

I can understand why you'd be sceptical about the speed of his Conqeurors by itself powering up. I'd say the same for most characters too, but for Luffy it's been a consistent precedent for him to grasp his furthering of haki for each category really fast, whenever he puts his whole mind and heart to it.
Observation with Katakuri was mere hours, Udon training was a couple days (iirc) until he did it the first time with the collars, then a few days of training. I think CoC can follow a similar trend and become fully mastered tonight. I think it's a good time as any while all this hype is surrounding it as a new tool.

But either way I agree with him utilising it in G4 and his stronger fruit abilities

To also feel like the haki is being used better, as you think of it

[weary cliff]

Conquerors is his natural proclivity. If he developed it faster than future sight, that shouldn't feel like anything out of the ordinary

[modest skiff]

I wouldn’t mind Luffy basically hitting Kaido with the same finisher as he used on Doffy, with a Conqueror’s haki twist

[pure raven]

Well no, I consider luffy has already learned using coating conquerors haki.

• it's not about the speed of learning it. What I was talking about.
  For me he did already learned using it, he will not further learn it or grow it as haki, but as the way of application in his DF techniques while fighting this is another difference in our understanding maybe.

[pure raven]

He did use it against kaido multiple time, and before he loose against kaido, we did saw him using it well defending with it and attacking.
what may have let him
loose, was not his conqueror haki not being mastered completely , but the way he applicate it with his devil fruit and his fighting techniques

[weary cliff]

Supposing Luffy did clean up his usage and was a bit more effective/efficient next time they clashed, you wouldn't put that under Luffy growing it further? That's mostly the feeling I got as well, but I do think you're right that the fruit will play a component. And thats why Kaido mocked him for his attempt

[pure raven]

I wouldn't put it in conqueror growth, but in his devil fruit and fighting techniques growth.
Because he has nothing to clean in his usage he already learned it and mastered the technique (coating CoC) but not the application with his devil fruit ⬅️⬅️⬅️⚠️

That's why I said my theory is that he will most likely, synchronize or find a link between [ryou, coating conquerors haki] and his [devil fruit technique] .
like he did with gear 4 and haki of armement before.

[pure raven]

And the link part will probably be explained by a flash back of luffy understanding and feeling it, in the fight oda didn't show us the last time

[pure raven]

https://youtu.be/e2nUxpnoF4g

An interesting theory on a possible zoan fruit for BB.

[tired osprey]

thats... actually interesting

[pure raven]

I never once considered octopus but it is creative

His points about the three hearts, their sleep pattern, the eight crossbones, and the nervous system actually made sense with how he explained them.

However, his points about the pain is already explained through the Yami Yami fruit

[covert hazel]

He does have an octopus kind of personality

[pure raven]

How so??

[covert hazel]

Idk I just get those vibes

[pure raven]

Maybe bc he's an opportunist?

He is special, from when he was a kid when he was with the white beards, so it's probably due to maybe some scientific research or act done on him prior the time he asked white to join his crew, if not then necessarily : he is born like that, ( born with 2/3.. spirit/person in one body I suppose).
but anyways this octopus theory doesn't work if you read this page

Looking at the perspective from this theory.. if he had ate a mythical variant, and it changed his body on a fundamental level. That could explain it.

[weary cliff]

Octopus is questionable because aquatic zoans just don't make sense conceptually

[pure raven]

But I also don't buy it, just like the creativeness of it

[upbeat mist]

axolotl though, so we know they exist

pour one out for smiley though rip to a real one

[limber dune]

Ussop >

[weary cliff]

Axolotls spend most of the time in water, but being amphibians they technically get a pass

[pure raven]

doesn't necessarily mean if it's an aquatic zoan then it isn't possible it may exist but power manifest in land like kaido fruit.
So it's not necessarly for this reason, it's an invalid theory

[weary cliff]

I don't really buy the seiryu as a defense just because it could easily be a cheeky reference to get around the fact oda already used the ryo ryo for dinosaurs

[limber dune]

Ussop actually gonna be stronger than luffy

[upbeat mist]

they cannot live on land, like they cannot breathe air

[weary cliff]

Well ya got me there

[polar bison]

so while I really like the concept, as this would make Blackbeard an effective and appropriate Davy Jones reference (and his fruit if it was a kraken fruit - more likely than mere octopus - would make that clear), I don’t believe it’s the case. I can’t imagine that Teach actually hid having a fruit from the WB pirates for like 30 years or however long. ppl catch on if u don’t swim in the OP world.

maybe he’s a half-octopus fishman, who only inherited traits such as sleep schedule and circulatory system from his parent, no outward appearing things?

[polar bison]

^

also I still like Blackbeard eating the kraken fruit in the future

it’s by far the best mythical zoan option for him imo

[pure raven]

Like I said, I don't buy into it, but I do like the creativeness of it

[grizzled fog]

That would be cool. It’s also such a classic sea monster I’d love to see it in the series

[cloud saddle]

this is "manga theories" and we are getting Octopus, an ocean creature, that can't live outside of the water, proposed as a zoan fruit for BB? Not to mention, if he decided to live in the sea, he would have died as well, because he is a freaking devil fruit user. Wait, whaaat ...

[dim radish]

i love hachi

[storm junco]

theres an axolotl fruit, and those are typically fully aquatic 🤷‍♂️

[weary cliff]

It's not so crazy that it's completely off the table. I just would be very surprised

[polar bison]

maybe even the ultimate anti-pirate sea monster, since its entire schtick is anti ship

[cloud saddle]

5 reasons why Enel will become Straw Hat Crew member (with eng subtitles). Very interesting theory.
https://youtu.be/HzDzkeGJ_VE

[versed hamlet]

Then what does blackbeard gain from hiding that df for so long? He never used it during the ts when he was a yonko?

[dusky acorn]

If I had to fight for the hypothesis, the reason he didn't reveal the fruit as a kid could be for emotional reasons. His crew knew he was different from not being able to sleep at least, but they didn't seem to know why he was different. Repetitive to Chopper and other characters, but it may have been the target of scrutiny for him as a child.

Even as a child though... I'm probably giving his character too much credit. The other reason would probably be due to his dubious self. Even from the beginning, Teech was hiding things and wasn't seriously devoting himself for Whitebeard, if he never amassed any bounty,. He would've kept it hidden for the slim chance his plan ever came into fruition.. It would create that extra shock value he thought would occur, which all did end up happening.

As for everything after and including the time-skip, maybe he still wants to keep that air of mystery around himself. If he perhaps thinks the unknown behind his multiple fruits adds to his notoriety or otherwise

[oblique isle]

So what's the theory on this big ass straw hat? After listing to bob lazar and him reference one of the nine ships he seen in area 51 he described one as a "straw hat" and now that's all I think of when ippa sees the big straw hat being keped. Is ipa an alien?

[forest rampart]

I subscribed to BB as pure third eyed tribe.
It could explain why he'll die if he fall asleep, smth like whales that'll die because they'll drown in the water if they fall asleep completely. So like maybe BB have different lungs, or two hearts or smth, if not he'll drown from the excessive oxygen or smth.

[forest rampart]

I used to think that Imu is an alien but now I think she is a human. That giant straw hat probably isn't that important. I think that Imu keep the giant straw hat as a a part of reminder of the Void Century. I also used to think that gomu gomu is important but I think it's just another part of reminder of the VC too. So maybe the gomu gomu belonged to Joyboy.

[runic osprey]

Yea both the straw hat and the gum gum fruit belonged to joyboy. Maybe thats why CP0 was guarding the fruit. If it was really that special the government would do anything to get it back.

[honest hedge]

It's not been confirmed if joyboy even had a devil fruit

The hat is presumed to be joyboys, but is also not confirmed

[forest rampart]

Probably not Joyboy's hat. Because I think the one that Luffy wears was Joyboy's hat.

[dawn oriole]

Wonder what will caribou do

[covert swan]

hmm

[pure raven]

The one imu was looking at feel more like the one surviving 900 years, the one roger had wouldn't have done so, lul don't forget it's made of straw

[runic osprey]

Of course its just theories. To me it just doesn’t convince me that the world government CP0 was guarding the gum gum fruit cause of its powers. I think they were guarding it cause the former user was special.

[slate zodiac]

Anyone notice how Blackbeard got way bigger after the timeskip? Y’all think this could be a result of the second fruit or just his weird body in general?

[grizzled fog]

I think it’s more likely just inconsistency

[sonic spruce]

if Teach really gets 3 fruits, I'd be pissed if Luffy defeats him just like other villains

[summer comet]

Came across funny yet interesting theory that people with eyes like mihawk can share thier vision with others including future sight

And yes I know a lot of others has been drawn with same circular pattern when angry, shocked ect.

[dark palm]

what's the connection there?

that they're all some sort of hivemind

like, why lol

[maiden terrace]

It'd be an interesting idea with the Kuma pacfistas, all having shared site making them OP

[summer comet]

I'm not 100% sure but it comes from
-When zunesha share it's sight with momo.
-And in marineford when luffy saw his arm getting cut, we can see mihawk eyes in panel before luffy panels, so they theorized mihawk was showing luffy future sight instead of luffy seeing it on his own.
-also when imu eyes were shown would be imu showing the 5 elders who needs to be eliminated

[grizzled fog]

Why would mihawk show luffy that he would cut his arms off when he’s literally trying to kill him

[summer comet]

And we know the 3 eyed tribe people have some short of power (I don't remember the power come from thier eye or they have it even without it) so having a special eye isn't that out of mind

[summer comet]

Mihawk was testing luffy luck cause shanks told him about luffy. Testing the fate of person his rival sacrificed an arm for

[grizzled fog]

i see

[runic osprey]

I think blackbeard will go after law soon when he learns about the true power of his fruit.

[pure raven]

I'd love to see that but...

Nah

[fathom matrix]

Hell, who says Luffy will be the one to beat him, maybe Shanks might end Blackbeard?

[sonic spruce]

Yeah that'd make more sense

[rigid wadi]

Why? Im more mad about Luffy defeating the strongest creature alive, a Yonko with 30+ years un piracy and expert un CoC alone because It doesn't make sense that a Rookie that has only been a bit more of 2 years in the sea defeats him but people want It to happen so bad that we're just gonna get fanservice moment with Luffy defeating him, which honestly is so underwelming

[fathom matrix]

Black Beard might have a lot of devil fruits, but there is the chance that because he's rushed getting them, and can get cocky, he can mess up in a fight, and focuses on quantity over quality

[pure raven]

Like garp and roger faced rocks, luffy and coby will face black beard maybe, in case he really get more powerful than this with 3 fruits

[rigid wadi]

Why Coby

That Guy doesn't have the lvl

[pure raven]

For now yeah but we don't see him often, + he is garp apprentice, he may improve very much by the time

And he will surely play a big role in the future so saying he has not the lvl now yes but not in the near future

[mellow skiff]

Luffy and smoker*

[rigid wadi]

Smoker proceeds to become a punching bag again like hole series*

[slate zodiac]

I like the idea of Coby and Luffy fighting together but it shouldn’t be against Blackbeard imo

[fathom matrix]

yaknow what would be interesting? If during the final arc, Akainu was about to Magma fist Luffy, but Coby this time actually swoops in and saves Luffy, stands up to Akainu and shouts at him for how Marines should act.

Hell, what if he actually manages to beat him, with every marine in the area in shock, and he shouts "WE'RE MEANT TO PROTECT EVERYONE! Why should we protect an old group of slavers that destroy everyone and everything on a whim?" explaining the Strawhats aren't villains or bad people, but the marines have become corrupt and there needs to a change, that blackbeard isn't the only enemy but the celestial drgons are, maybe Garp decides enough is enough too, steps in and backs up Coby?

Maybe Fujitora and Greenbull get involved.

[pure raven]

I just made a parallel conclusion with a comparison between Roger /xebec and luffy / black beard situation very similar.
So I tought maybe just maybe it will also be the case of the fight
Roger + garp vs xebec = luffy + coby vs black beard, but just in case black beard get any stronger than what he is right now maybe if he get 3 fruit

[slate zodiac]

Yeah I feel you but Blackbeard is the most anticipated villain and is written to be a dark parallel of Luffy which is shown in the cherry pie scene where they disagree. he’s meant to be the perfect villain for Luffy only. I could def see them teaming up in the final war in some sort of way though like you said since they’re friends at the end of the day.

[pure raven]

We still know nothing about imu too and the gorosei , though I think black beard will be a villain, just before luffy going to raftel, not in what's gonna happen after.

[dire obsidian]

Bro Coby is getting bodied by Blackbeard and his crew even with the straw hats there

[small pasture]

damn +-180 chapters left , there is going to be so much caos

[pure raven]

Like I said before, it was mere conclusion.
+for now he is weak, but not later, he is garp apprentice and probably oda will make him improve, still we see nothing from him, so you can't judge him and what he can become by just what you saw In the past, come on.

[rough helm]

where you see this

[pure raven]

do yall think that mihawk might be shakky and Rayleighs son

The eyes

[amber oar]

rough estimation from 5 years

[runic osprey]

There is a possibility

This is what started the mihawk could be rayleighs son theory

[weary cliff]

Rayleigh Mihawk has been speculated forever. This panel is what people point to for the theory that Shanks and Buggy were picked up at God Valley

[modest skiff]

Too many bamboozles to assume anything based on that. All that tells us is that Rayleigh met a baby in his past.

[pure raven]

And also

Shakky has the same little hair spike like mihawk

she also said she hadn't set set sail in "Over 40 Years" and Mihawk is 43

[pure raven]

In 5 year it would be around 250/300 if we say that the 5th year has also chapters

[pure raven]

The eyes seems to be related to some clan or family tribe cause if I'm not mistaken there is some people other than mihawk with the same eyes.
And both shakky nor Rayleigh have those eyes

But who knows 🤷‍♂️

[amber oar]

36 * 5=180, even adding another year it would be betwen 210-220

Oda isn't releasing every week, he's been averaging 36-37 the last few years

[pure raven]

Guys do you think somehow luffy will lose to Kaido and Big Mom in this arc ?

[pure raven]

Then 100% sure more than 5 year

[pure raven]

Luffy win, kaido loose,
Big mom will not loose

Just a though what if kaido and Big Mom win and Luffy crew will be capture by them. Don't you think a huge war will occur ?

I mean from the revolution army, shank and some Warlord will help luffy

Kaido loose, big mom save him and run from the island

Those yonko are pure evil, except shank

big mom is freaking stealing life on her people twice every year

I don't think she could be an ally

[pure raven]

You want them dead because if they kill then oda will take revenge?
I think oda is messed up enough to make it possible

[sturdy hawk]

Big mom isnt pure evil, you saw it with tama

[pure raven]

In the general plot, what the WG did is 1000 time more atrocious than what kaido and big mom did so in my opinion lining with this logic, I think kaido and big mom will be helping the nakama in the last war

[pure raven]

She lost her memory lol

[sturdy hawk]

No, she was grateful to her

[iron lion]

WG good pirates bad

[sturdy hawk]

And wanted to protect her

[warped coral]

Isn't that worse like shanks has 0 DF powers and he can defeat a 3 DFs user?

[pure raven]

I guess it isn't possible for luffy to lose in this arc. There just not enough time for Oda to finish it otherwise

Like Wano is already 3 years in and we're not close to ending yet

[iron lion]

isn't Kaido tired at this point or is he just too enthralled by having a hardfought fight?

[oak mural]

we are close

[pure raven]

Luffy lost 3 time, he will win 1 time I think it's already a good counterparty from oda

[sonic spruce]

Dfs doesn't really matter if your haki is strong enough. If someone is capable enough to defeat multiple people with dfs, one guy having multiple shouldn't be a problem.

[oak mural]

16 more chaps for the raid to end and another 7-12 post raid

[pure raven]

There still a story arc about marine vs shichibukai

Wano will end in 10 chapters max, so another 3 month patience guys

[oak mural]

that is post wano

[pure raven]

Revolution army vs the Marine

I mean 5 years can he really finish it?

No

Wano already took 3 or 4 years on it's own

More than 2 years I think not 3 or 4

So maybe another 3 arc max