#manga-theories

1 messages · Page 84 of 1

onyx fjord
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I don’t know if that timeline lines up

grizzled fog
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We have no idea

fluid lava
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I don’t think so I think it’s like near the end of the new world tbh

grizzled fog
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It could be, there could also be a bunch of islands in between

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5th to last sounds reasonable though

onyx fjord
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I remember seeing a map that showed that but I can’t remember when or where

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So I’ll chalk it up to a false memory

grizzled fog
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May have been fanart

pastel summit
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there's no official map

grizzled fog
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What choc said

fluid lava
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I’d personally say it’s closer to like the second to last island after elbaf I think the next destination is black beard to get to laugh tale

onyx fjord
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I think this would probably be a possibility if we are to believe Oda on his one piece ending in 2025 stuff

fluid lava
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Yeah I think the series is nearing its end

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It’s only got a handful of arcs at most to go

dense wing
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It’s starting to seem like at the pace we’re going, we pretty much have Elbaf and maybe Lodestar before Laugh Tale

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Then afterwards final war

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Personally I think fighting the BB pirates at Lodestar, the final island of the Grand Line barring Laugh Tale, makes sense

fluid lava
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I think oda has fleshed out the world and all it’s mysteries at this point and he’s starting to get us into the phase of slowly revealing all the answers

dense wing
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I think we’re finally at the point in One Piece where we KNOW what we don’t know and we’re waiting for Oda to tell us

Vs us being completely clueless about what’s coming next and there being a potential curveball

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Granted those moments may still come, but for the most part the direction of the series seems clear

fluid lava
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Yeah I think we’re at the point where we can see the end like a far away horizon and we know the general shape the answers will form

onyx fjord
dense wing
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I will say, personally I think we’re at a great place to be a One Piece fan

dense wing
onyx fjord
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It could be used to derail stuff regarding Bonney, Kuma, and many mysteries

fluid lava
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When they reach the ending and it’s animated a year later I will literally commit a war crime if the first opening isn’t played over a montage of the straw hats on laugh tale

onyx fjord
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An absolute monster of a loredump

dense wing
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I think Vegapunk will show up whenever the Revos get the front stage again

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Laugh tale will be the lore dump to end all anime lore dumps

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The Joy Boy flashback to end all flashbacks

fluid lava
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I think it will break the internet tbh

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It’ll be the entire twitter trending for weeks

dense wing
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Yeah the second spoilers come out about the chapter revealing the One Piece Twitter will break

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Youtube thumbnails

THE ONE PIECE IS _____

fluid lava
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Like it’ll make the basement reveal in attack on Titan look like a child revealing their macaroni painting

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Whatever it is I genuinely hope oda makes it super funny to give the audience the same reaction the roger pirates had

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Turns out the one piece is a big poneglyh with a link to never gonna give you up written on it

pure raven
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Nah

The treasure is something physical worth the journey and hardship to get there(laughtale) as mentioned by oda

And the story there (in laughtale)i want to laugh same as roger
i havent laughed like that in a long time want to try thatt

sturdy hawk
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The manga is the laugh tale

median slate
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is it possible for Blackbeard pirates to have sabo?

sturdy glen
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isnt sabo dead

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they got captured when fighting

sonic plaza
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he wouldnt die from that.
he prob got captured and will be executed soon, so the Marines can lure in Dragon, just like they did for WB in Marineford

pure raven
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We have VOAT. What if mastering all forms of Haki unlocks COAT, the Colour of All Things?

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Could tie into Imu trying to extinguish 'lights' and we all know light is made up of colours.

lyric dust
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oh no, not the classic "master every category and gain a new power!!!!"

pure raven
polar bison
# onyx fjord Yeah again I’d insist on there being a Vegapunk arc too

I think the vegapunk arc is being set up rn. possibly Wano ends with CP0 and VP taking center stage, going into a short (zou esque?) arc before elbaf (? to pursue bm who has the wano red poneglyph? and is trying for the one shanks has at elbaf?). after elbaf, Luffy will have proven himself to Shanks, and all that will be left is Blackbeard, the Navy, and the WG.

onyx fjord
pastel summit
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there's about 20 different directions we could go after Wano, I think Elbaf is just the most likely, because everywhere else leads to Elbaf likely not being a thing that happens in the story.

onyx fjord
polar bison
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BM likely loses yonkou status imo and maybe even takes an L to Kidd, but her character clearly still has more than Wano can fit for it.

pastel summit
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hard disagree.

polar bison
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she lives, escapes with the poneglyph and maybe kaidou’s soul

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yeah but u hate bm so I don’t rlly respect ur opinion on her bc it’s hardly objective

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that’s nothing personal it’s just how it is

pastel summit
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I'm yet to see someone propose some epic conclusion that awaits BM that really necessitates her going to Elbaf. It's just "what if she learns the truth about mother carmel????!!?!" okay, then what?

polar bison
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then there’s some sort of resolution to the character Oda’s spent the last 200 chapters/half decade of his life exploring

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im not gonna pretend to know whether BM dies bitterly to the SHs/giants/her family or reverts to some sort of O Lin persona, or does something else entirely different, but being defeated right now in wano, a place that means nothing to her or her character, by like,,, anyone here? there’d be no point to most of that last half decade of character work. it feels really disingenuous to suggest that as something Oda would do.

kind gate
polar bison
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with help

kind gate
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maybe
It depends on if we are through with her here

polar bison
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could see the SHs assisting in pushing her back and forcing her to retreat

pastel summit
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I don't really think where she is defeated matters that much though? If her defeat is used to prop up someone else. I don't necessarily think there's a grand character conclusion for BM.

polar bison
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personally my current understanding of where we are is that BM likely takes an L and a serious fall in reputation, and maybe even somehow loses her family thats at Wano or their support. definitely isn’t a yonkou post wano. but like she’s immortal so she escapes with her homies, maybe a new powerful one or two (the storm one and maybe a kaidou one) to hype up her threat level more, and maybe a hostage or a poneglyph to necessitate chasing after her

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that’s the thing abt Wano

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there’s been a lot of emphasis on killing kaidou because he can come back from a defeat the same way Luffy does. that same emphasis has not been placed on BM, but she’s just as capable of it, as we’ve seen throughout Wano with her having no problem bouncing back from the various situations her stupidity has landed her in

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I don’t think they can pull off figuring out a way to kill BM here quite frankly, and that’s why she escapes

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if he wants to commit to BM being evil, I think the endgame is her rampaging against her family and parts of them deciding to team up with Luffy and the SHs to put a stop to her. that would make sense for the character as presented

pastel summit
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I mean, at this point, I'm pretty much convinced she's losing to either Kid or BB. Which means she loses at wano, or even if she does escape, BB is going to defeat her. I doubt that there will be some epic SHs vs BM battle on Elbaf or something.

polar bison
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if he wants to do something with O Lin, then idt that’s happening in Wano when Elbaf where Linlin spent her childhood makes so much more sense

polar bison
pastel summit
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not o lin, BM

polar bison
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meh

pastel summit
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honestly, you're right. I do have a bias. I don't think her character arc really matters. I think her position as an emperor and her presence as one of the remaining figures of the Rocks crew have held far more significance than her character.

polar bison
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and for the plot, sure absolutely

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I think that plays into Elbaf still kind of being a threatening place - if wano is two yonkou being taken down, elbaf just being shanks kinda seems underwhelming, but if BM has to be dealt with still as a threat, and then also there’s shanks who can be hyped up as a greater threat than kaidou bc it’s a 1v1 from the start, I think it feels like a natural evolution of stakes compared to Wano

pastel summit
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which imo, is why she is not going to fall as Charlotte Linlin, but she is going to fall as Big Mom, one of the four emperors of the new world.

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I think elbaf being shanks is a pretty bad meme too. I'd much prefer if it was a lore heavy arc.

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the only thing that connects shanks to elbaf is his ship design.

polar bison
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and also where we’ve seen him when ace went to visit him

pastel summit
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was that stated?

polar bison
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looked elbaf as fuck to me idk

pastel summit
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do you have the panel?

polar bison
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sorry for shit translation I just googled

pastel summit
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what are you seeing there that is "elbaf as fuck"?

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elbaf has a giant tree, not a giant mountain.

polar bison
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snowy cold mountain vibes are nordic vibes imo

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maybe I need to reread BM backstory tho

pastel summit
polar bison
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mountains

pastel summit
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yeah. but no sign of giant tree.

polar bison
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could be the exact reason Oda only showed a single mountain to set the scene

pastel summit
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everywhere has mountains. not something unique to elbaf. the giant tree is.

worldly anvil
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hmm a giant tree

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Ohara huh

pastel summit
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not quite, no. it'd be a reference to yggdrasil, the world tree.

polar bison
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anyway divergence

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maybe he isn’t at elbaf and instead at lodestar but like. bm still would be

pastel summit
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well, the shanks battle if it happens, is never going to be some "threatening" battle, so I don't think there will really be stakes. If we assume BM is going on beyond wano, then it's BB, BM and then whatever is in the final war. vs WG+Marines, which is obviously going to be the largest battle. I don't really think there will be a rising amount of stakes, either. Either way, BM has to be dealt with in some form or another here. The stakes are still vs 2 emperors. if she just leaves without doing anything, or having a real fight or anything, it'd probably be underwhelming, so those "stakes" of vs 2 emperors will still remain. If anyone is getting that "true 1v1" it'd be BB I imagine.

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so if we approach from the argument of "stakes", I think that's even less favourable for BM to remain in the story.

polar bison
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hmmm fair

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in that case that’s tough then because that doesn’t work for BB killing her. BM’s losing her yonkou status so it’s not a feat of any sort for BB to beat her after that, at least not compared to Luffy initially taking down both her and Kaidou

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you can’t use her status for her end, because she’s losing her status here in wano

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all that’s left is character and threat resolution, neither of which I think wano can accomplish, but both of which I think can be used within Elbaf a ton

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or maybe BB kills O Lin and it’s a very dark end for a very dark character accomplished by the Dark Dark man and it kind of fits him only killing Yonkou at their absolute weakest bc he’s a coward ass loser who’s gonna get fucked up by luffy

pastel summit
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I think that really depends on how she ends up leaving. She still retains her territory, her army and her personal strength. What qualifies her as an emperor still remains. No one has taken over her territory. If she's just forced off the island, her strength wasn't really beaten. She still has her family and a large part of her alliances.

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If she's outright defeated here, then I don't think BB is beating her. I think Kid will beat her as a parallel to Luffy beating Kaido. Regardless, I believe her defeat will represent some kind of "growth" of one of Luffy's rivals, as opposed to Luffy himself beating her.

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I think it's more likely that Kid beats her (you can read shimon's theory on it if you haven't yet), just because I doubt Luffy is just going to be some monolithic pirate king with no equal. and Kid beating an emperor ties him as being a serious rival/equal of Luffy's.

polar bison
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sure. and that works for her status as a yonkou. doesn’t work for the character after that status ends

pastel summit
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okay, does it help if I say kill instead of defeat?

polar bison
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no because they won’t kill her just like Luffy won’t kill kaidou

pastel summit
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why not?

polar bison
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killing isn’t important to the yonkou status, defeating it is. killing is about ending the character, and that’s relevant to the character, not their status.

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I guess my prediction that would tie this together is Blackbeard targeting WCI while BM is gone. Katakuri likely decides to prioritize protecting his family/people over the poneglyphs/territory, allowing BB the spoils almost entirely while he escapes with his family/the ppl of totto land

pastel summit
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so... kid isn't going to kill her because he values her alive as a character...? Not sure what your point is.

polar bison
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that way BM’s status as a yonkou is summarily gone by the end of the arc

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and all that’s left is her actual character, with Katakuri and her family and people mobile to meet her in elbaf where it all went wrong the first time

polar bison
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I don’t understand how Kidd would kill BM quite frankly

pastel summit
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her being alive and still relevant severely diminishes any accomplishment "defeating" her actually causes.

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drowning is obviously the simplest way. which is what they originally intended anyway.

polar bison
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? tell that to crocodile

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u think Oda is gonna kill BM by drowning her??? see that’s where the bias comes in that’s why I don’t want to have this conversation

pastel summit
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crocodile is relevant because he was broken out of prison. He was captured and unable to do anything. He would've died in prison had impel down not been broken into.

polar bison
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yes she could die by drowning but if we’re honest with ourselves she’s never going to

pastel summit
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If Luffy beat Crocodile, but Crocodile was never captured, then it severely diminishes his reputation as someone who defeated crocodile. Look at Moria.

polar bison
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that’s because no one heard he defeated Moria, not because Moria wasn’t captured

pastel summit
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No one knew Luffy defeated crocodile outside of the WG.

polar bison
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the WG specifically hid that Moria was defeated because they knew it’d ruin his reputation and increase Luffy’s

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because they couldn’t hide that Croc was defeated, because Tashigi made the choice to arrest him instead of covering for him

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they can’t and won’t hide that BM and Kaidou were both defeated

pastel summit
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okay, so let's go back. If Kid defeats Big Mom, if she's still relevant with all her forces, then it diminishes any kind of reputation or accomplishment it would generate if she was still relevant.

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who is they?

polar bison
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i’ve been pretty consistent that I don’t think she’ll have all her forces

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the WG has no reason to cover for BM and Kaidou

pastel summit
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wym cover??? If she's still doing shit, she's not fucking defeated. She's still relevant.

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How can you provably say someone got defeated if there's no evidence of it?

polar bison
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drake will tell mr sakazuki “hey Kidd fucked up BM and also half her crew is gone and also oh u guys just heard that BB is sacking Totto Land???”

and mr sakazuki will go “guess BM isn’t a yonkou anymore either, alert the presses that Kidd and Luffy are in and BM/kaidou are out”

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maybe kidd even forces an O Lin reversion

pastel summit
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BM didn't stop being a yonkou once she left totto land and went to wano. you even said katakuri would escape with his family and the people of totto land. Kid doesn't suddenly have influence and territory for unprovably beating BM. the only person who provably has done anything in this scenario is BB.

polar bison
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and she just isn’t a threat for a bit. there’s a lot of ways this can go

pastel summit
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her being alive is literally her as a threat

polar bison
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ok but like bb killing WB and establishing himself as a threat capable of taking out everyone didnt make him a yonkou

pastel summit
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because BB didn't kill WB. WB went through a whole war, and had a half melted face before BB and his crew shot him with bullets, which still didn't even immediately kill him.

polar bison
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beating marco didn’t even make him a yonkou. it took usurping most of Wb’s influence and power to do that. if BM loses almost ALL of her influence and power and respect in one go then yes she wouldn’t be a yonkou anymore

pastel summit
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how is her power lost?

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her territory is lost. She is still an influence due to her power. Her respect may be lost, but she's still a threat.

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Kid doesn't magically gain influence for doing something that drake can't even see either.

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he's not even taking over her territory. BB is in this scenario.

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I'd also add, taking over Tottoland is meaningless if BM herself is still alive. BB cannot defend both Fullalead and Tottoland at the same time. There are very few people able to stop BM in a worthwhile capacity.

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especially if people like Katakuri, Cracker etc. are still alive too. Idk why the first option would be "go to elbaf, the island we've been exiled from so we have to fight an army of giants" instead of revenge taking fullalead, which is more in line with her character.

polar bison
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lmao sorry I had to take a call

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it’s not about taking over totto land, it’s just about its resources - specifically the poneglyphs and any other guns/materials/whatever. we’ve already seen BB do exactly this with Baltigo, down to the actual denizens choosing to escape and leave rather than fight over the location, so it’s within character and has precedent.

pastel summit
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so you're saying BB just ransacks it then leaves? Then why would BM not return there?

polar bison
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I mean if it’s like, fucked up and destroyed is there a point?

polar bison
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they spend like half a chapter talking about the absolute obligation an invitation to her tea party is

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that’s what being a yonkou is in her context. she can ask anything of anyone because the threat if you say no is too great otherwise

pastel summit
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sure. that'd be her influence. not her own personal power. she's not weaker because people don't call her an emperor anymore.

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she may be less influential, but she can still rip your head off if she can get to you.

polar bison
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if she loses totto land, and the entire system that’s been built by streusen since she was a kid to support and hold her up, she’s hardly any more dangerous than weevil

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and u wouldn’t consider weevil a yonkou.

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and then if Kidd actually beats her and proves that her personal power isn’t top notch anymore either, then it’s like yeah okay goodbye

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run off to elbaf so we can finish ur character ur not a yonkou anymore. that’s why all the hype has been about taking down two yonkou and taking down kaidou. there’s no hype about taking down BM specifically because this is not her ultimate end

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like u can ask questions abt the specifics here

pastel summit
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but what is there to finish in her character??????

polar bison
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how this happens and why and in what specific ways. idrk and im going to be wrong if I try to pose an idea bc im not oda. but I can see what oda’s done and it’s set up for more this character beyond her status as a yonkou, and that pretty clearly leads towards elbaf

pastel summit
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we're circling back to the first question I asked, that was never answered.

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I understand what you're saying, and it's a possibility. I just don't see where it's ending. I don't see why we need to go through all this just to have the SHs kill her in the end. Or the giants. or whoever. The SHs won't kill her, so it'd be the giants. Just some revenge story? "u killed our chief, so die"?

polar bison
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we need the resolution to her relationship with the giants. we need the resolution to her personality changes. we need the resolution to her relationship with her family. hell, we need the resolution to her family! katakuri and pudding’s characters have more to give, and Katakuri’s final lines to Luffy directly set that up. There is meat here for something. I’m not sure what, but I’m sure Oda will make sense of it all.

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there are unanswered questions here

pastel summit
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the resolution with giants doesn't need to be done on elbaf. literally just her defeat resolves it. We've never seen giants ever make a big deal out of BM. All we've seen is that she was exiled 60+ yrs ago. Her family can have their own conclusions. Her defeat can just open up their eyes, idk if we specifically need a whole arc dedicated to it. It can just be some post-arc thing, them reacting to her defeat, and deciding what to do. Her personality, maybe? I don't think that shit really matters tbh. Anyone's personality would change if they had amnesia. Her disorder? Tragic, but I don't see what's there to resolve. Seems like something she actively ignored, and no one tried to help her with it because she was too deadly to control. She's a tragic character, I don't think we really need to explore every facet of her and conclude it in some way. She lived a tragic character, she dies a tragic character.

polar bison
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giants have never had a chance to make a big deal out of BM

pastel summit
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yeah but there was never even any hint.

polar bison
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but we are told by the narrator that the giant who witnessed her kill everyone went back and told Elbaf, and they’ve bitterly hated her ever since

pastel summit
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they've bitterly hated her ever since she destroyed the village and killed their elder.

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not necessarily the giant witnessing her cannibalism.

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shouldn't even say bitterly hated, but they've kept her exiled ever since.

polar bison
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if u wanna know why giants have never mentioned it.

lyric dust
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but the narrator cant be trusted!!!1 CrocoKidEvenMoreDistorted

polar bison
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im not suggesting that elbaf as a whole will be about bm

pastel summit
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I mean, my point still stands? I don't see what changes from her being defeated off elbaf vs on it. all it changes is that the giants have a part in her defeat. But they don't even want to speak her name. seems appropriate for whoever defeats her to be thanked by the giants. I guess if she's defeated on Elbaf, the SHs would be the most likely to be credited with her defeat? Again, not even death.

polar bison
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I don’t think it will be. I think bm is just an excuse to get the SHs there and then an element of the arc, the same way she was an element of wano

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it’s not about the giants

pastel summit
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okay, but there are countless ways to get the SHs to elbaf that aren't dragging the same character again for some mediocre conclusion, doing the same shit she's been doing for the past 200 chapters.

lyric dust
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bm going down here could set up elbaf as a lil chill arc which we haven't had in a while

pastel summit
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if it's not about the giants, then what? It's about BM being mad? She's already mad.

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side note, who the fuck are these dudes? they're tiny. I know the old dude is big, but he can't be that big. are these humans?

unknown.png
lyric dust
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lowkey looks like inuarashi

polar bison
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it’s about BM. so much of her character has revolved around the giants and yet we’ve never even seen her interact with one in present. how would that make sense???? she has to go to elbaf before she dies, when her backstory was how we were introduced to it and so much of her revolves around the giants.

your problem is still that you don’t care about the BM character. yes, her dying without seeing them works for the giants. sets up them being friendly with SHs and Kidd. it doesn’t for her.

and like, it’s fine to not care about her character. I have mixed feelings. but it’s dishonest to think that the story/Oda doesn’t, he’s spent so much time on it

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he is going to revolve the shit that he’s set up, and he’s set up a lot for BM’s character and giants.

pastel summit
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No, I don't think Oda really cares about her character as much as he cares about her status as an emperor.

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he's spent a little bit of time, but most of WCI was about Sanji, not BM.

polar bison
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i’d agree with u if O-Lin didn’t exist during Wano and BM didn’t keep hinting towards wanting to betray kaidou in the end

pastel summit
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She was just a menacing presence in the arc, with some backstory and flavour chucked in.

polar bison
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this is my final argument and contention, I need to reserve some energy for discussing OP because I want to finish writing my theory about why Zoro doesn’t have CoC today:)

pastel summit
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Well, yeah. O-Lin is a thing, I just think it was a shit thing where the only purpose was to drive things forward. and zoro not having CoC is pretty likely at this point. I'd help you with that, but it's 2am.

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I'm heavily leaning towards him not having it.

polar bison
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im 90% sure

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there was a brief moment of doubt, but Zoro not having CoC is so fundamental to how I understand both CoC and his character

brazen forge
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do you think luffy will end up fighting shanks or will they team up?

pastel summit
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yeah. It's so fundamentally Zoro to not be able to do a thing, but instead just do something that emulates it. It's entirely what the monet scene was about. If he had CoC, he could've knocked her out. Instead he just scared her by making her realize he could kill her any time he wanted, and just chose not to.

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and produced the same result.

pastel summit
lyric dust
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I dont really see the Peterman thing tbh

pastel summit
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to me he looks like he has a pointed face.

lyric dust
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its pretty hard to see cause his face looks all disoriented and everything

grizzled fog
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I’ve an idea

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Might seem like a bit of a reach but

sturdy hawk
grizzled fog
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I think there’s a possibility of Brook joining Kid in the fight against Big mom. He’s an excellent counter to the homies, really almost essential for fighting her, and it might feel like a waste to not have him be apart of her downfall. Not to mention, brook is currently with Robin fighting Black Maria, but a 2v1 seems kind of odd right? Franky is fighting a tobi roppo solo, the BLack Maria fight is probably going to mainly focus on Robin anyway, so why not have robin fight her solo?
And finally, this is pretty unlikely, but remember that fan theory that Kid was a fan of Soul King music? How he’s partially inspired by him? Then a team up between the two could be great, and we could see Kid fanboy a bit.

lyric dust
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wait that would be amazing

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the only thing is that we just need an explanation as to how and why hes on the roof

grizzled fog
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Big mom isn’t on the roof atm

lyric dust
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yeah true

grizzled fog
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They are closer to the edge of Onigashima

lyric dust
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i mean like, that general area

onyx fjord
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I would loove for Brook to fight Big Mom

polar bison
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I kind of think there's a chance every non Monster trio SH fights BM

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with Kidd

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Sanji can't, because she's a woman, and I'm pretty sure he's fighting both Queen and King at this point

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while Zoro is too injured to fuck with a yonkou any further, and weirdly never touched her on the roof, only defended from her blows and attacked prometheus

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and is also marked out for Orochi and Hiyori now

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but every other SH has tangled with BM in the last 200 chapters, and it does kind of feel like that's gonna come up again

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would be appropriate if Wano mirrored Thriller Bark in that way, where the SHs post-their own battles team up to fight the big huge threat

zinc iris
past cobalt
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URANUS THEORY
Uranus is the god personifying the heavens and is the ruler of the universe in Greek mythology. The ancient weapon Uranus is located in Mariejoa (in the heavens) where all the Celestial Dragons (perceived rulers of the universe/gods) reside. The World Government has stored Uranus in a vault in Mariejoa to see what its greatest threats are, so that they can pre-emptively eliminate them so they can stay in power. Im is interested in Luffy, Shirahoshi, Blackbeard, and Vivi (you can see they carry their wanted posters during the Reverie arc) because Uranus keeps circulating them as the World Government's greatest future threats. This also explains why there was a giant straw hat in the Mariejoa vault: Uranus is telling Im that Straw Hat Luffy is a threat to the World Government and needs to be eliminated (after this panel Luffy's bounty was increased even further). Basically, Uranus is a future-telling device that Im has stashed away in a vault to tell them their threats so that they can stay in power. Uranus morphs into the shape of its user's greatest threat, threat level being perceived by how big the morph is. If the morph is big, then the threat is big, and vice-versa. Luffy's morph from Uranus was a large straw hat because Luffy wears a straw hat and is one of the greatest threats to Im's power. I also believe that Im has been controlling the World Government from behind the shadows for the past nine hundred years (which is right after the Void Century) because they had a previous user of the Opi Opi No Mi perform the Eternal Youth Surgery on them. This, coupled with the fact that Uranus gives Im the knowledge of who is their greatest threat, is how they have been able to stay in power and keep the World Government in control of the entire One Piece world since the void century.

dense wing
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That’s actually.... a fairly good theory

My only thing is that the Straw Hat in the vault is likely a relic from the Ancient Kingdom, like possible belonging to Joy Boy

past cobalt
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hmm true
maybe im was looking at the straw hat to see a comparison with the straw hat luffy has on in his wanted poster? the straw hat could carry a greater symbolic meaning having to do with the D clan

dense wing
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Considering that both Voice of All Things users, Roger and Luffy, both wore the Straw Hat, there may be some prophetic meaning towards “a man with a straw hat”

zinc iris
dense wing
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Like the one who carries Joy Boy’s will wears a straw hat like Joy Boy once did

past cobalt
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Ohhh I see ill remove the zeus part then thanks

zinc iris
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however there is weird stuff indeed with the ancient weapons names

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because aside the fact that for Pluton it's used the roman name instead of the greek Hades, the trio is indeed supposed to be Zeus, Poseidon and Hades, that as the 3 main Olympians overthrowing the Titans inherited the world in its three aspects of sky, oceans and underworld

past cobalt
zinc iris
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with Hades expected to ultimately inherit Earth itself so he's also associated with land in general

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this is often mentioned in relation with Persephone marrying him and their child Zagreus

past cobalt
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Considering the ancient weapon Uranus morphs into the symbol of its user's greatest threat, another thing that could be associated with it is how large the symbol is. If the morph is a huge symbol, that means it's a huge threat and vice-versa. If this scaling is true then Luffy's morph from Uranus was a large straw hat because Luffy wears a straw hat and is one of the greatest threats to Im's power, hence why his bounty was immediately raised after Im noticed this fact.

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Idk to me it's either Uranus or a giant straw hat relic lol

zinc iris
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I think the name is just to imply a connection to the sky, like poseidon is about the sea and pluton is about the land

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and about this there is an association I make often
poseidon, with the name of the god of the sea, is the ancient weapon of the fishmen, the people of the sea
pluton, with the name of the god of the ground, is the ancient weapon of humans, the people of the land
uranus has the name of he sky god so it fits it's the ancient weapon of the sky people

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also all the sky people came from the moon, so that can factor in too

pure raven
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🤝

ancient vault
zinc iris
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I'd throw out all the deep delve in mythology because Oda isn't going to conform to such minutiae

pure raven
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It's a theory that predates Morj but he popularised it

pure raven
zinc iris
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I wouldn't go much deeper than uranus = sky

pure raven
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the fats one

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or lilhaks

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Yea fats noticed Im could be short for Imhotep in the replied message ^ and I added some personal observations in the pic

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That was a fun day of browsing Wikipedia QueenKEKW

zinc iris
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I instead browsed zeldapedia

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because hybrid kaido looked like a character

pure raven
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We discussed a bit about Doffy combining Ope Ope and the treasure afterwards. He also said power has a short expiration date which contradicts eternal rule. Could really be anything aPES_Think

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onyx fjord
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I will be shocked if Im isn’t from the void century

zinc iris
stuck ice
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Oda trolling the theory again on the new ep still not seeing young crocCrydo

polar bison
pure raven
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I think it was mentioned in the conversation with Tsuru-san

zinc iris
pure raven
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Ah it was to Ro

past cobalt
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But that's really cool that other people have thought of this too

pure raven
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Such a based theory

mellow silo
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PLOT TWIST:

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One piece is all Blackbeard’s dream that’s why he don’t sleep

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Or he goes to sleep and the other soul inside him wakes up

zinc iris
mellow silo
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Yessir but what if it is his dream and Oda mindfucks everyone

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Somehow

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Since apparently nobody is remotely close even with all the theories out there

lyric dust
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thats bad writing imo

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all of the character development, all of the things he wrote, all eviscerated in a second when blackbeard wakes up and is just like, "Huh, where am I?"

mellow silo
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Yeah I know that’s why it would be funny

zinc iris
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it would be funny if he has some df that lets him act in his lucid body in the real world while he's been sleeping the last 40 years

mellow silo
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The worst least expected ending happening? I’m down honestly

lyric dust
zinc iris
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like some astral projection

mellow silo
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Theories on what roger/Luffy say in the cut off declaration they both make? (the one we don’t get to actually see where they both say the same thing)

visual merlin
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simplest theories would be like pirate king, free, or something like that

mellow silo
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Yeah but, y would they cut it off then, and I know anime isn’t technically fully cannon all the time but Luffy doesn’t just say a short 2 words which makes me think it’s sumthin else.

zinc iris
mellow silo
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Yeah Luffy says that already, plus roger I don’t think wanted to be “king of the pirates”

zinc iris
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beside the meta reason it would make no sens to cut out the line from the audience as it would be too obvious to be a surprise for later as we already know of this goal,
we actually know the title of Pirate King didn't exists back when roger stated his dream, it was a name created by newspapers when he finally reached the final island

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he was surprised by such name but liked it

mellow silo
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Yeah

visual merlin
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ah yea, can't be PK then

mellow silo
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Something about a party with everybody after everyone is free. Whether it’s all the people who follow him or everyone who knows him (which everyone in the whole world would know him)

zinc iris
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it has to be something many would think of as childish considering some reactions to it

lyric dust
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I definitely think it has something to do with freeing something

zinc iris
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or at least child-like

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so something along the line of wanting to be an astronaut would qualify for example

mellow silo
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With the party thing This ties into his ideal type of crew/crew members he needs such as cook and musician and the kid like dream

lyric dust
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yeah, but the reactions also imply that what he's doing is like, almost impossible

mellow silo
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But yoooo going to the moon would be perfect too damnn

lyric dust
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at least that's my interpretation, could always be wrong

zinc iris
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my "joke" theory is that he says that he wants to go to the moon because it's the last unexplored place it would remain after completing the grand line

mellow silo
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Yeah well U say joke I say there’s a chance

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Especially with my boi chillin up there

zinc iris
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i say joke because I'm kinda throwing it out there as something funny I'm not willing to commit to 100%

mellow silo
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Yeah I get u

zinc iris
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because while it would fit what we already know of the reactions, I have the lingering feeling it's not going to be what is going to happen

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so I classify it as some of my wishful thinking

mellow silo
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Well, I do feel like the moon will be involved in some way, the two main thing that I can think of that haven’t come back yet are the skypiea and long ring long land arcs

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Maybe not for the ending but hopefully once more before the story ends

zinc iris
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I still hope for a moon arc, but it kinda has to happen before raftel and I'm unsure on how to justify it happening

languid rune
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Mr morj made a theory that Raftel is on the moon

mellow silo
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I saw a theory about the emerald city being on the moon don’t know how possible that is tho

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Yeah I saw that too mr Morj’s vid

zinc iris
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raftel being on the moon doesn't click with the road poneglyphs

languid rune
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Yea it seems weird

mellow silo
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Yeah and again the anime shows Rafael on the blue sea although it isn’t technically cannon and could be misdirection but if Raftel somehow is on the moon then I think the”raftel” in the blue sea has something that teaches about the ancient history and celestial dragons helmets allowing them to go to the moon or something

zinc iris
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there's a lot of the surrounding stuff that would work difficultly with roger going to the moon and coming back on the oro jackson etc

lyric dust
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they wouldn't even be able to get up to the moon

mellow silo
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Yeah exactly there’s too much to deal with, although roger could have found out the moon was the next place to go but realized he couldn’t do everything necessary to get there before he died

zinc iris
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a semi-working line of events I had in mind is this:
Roger's dream was to get on the moon
to honor his wish, Whitebeard uses his powers to toss the road poneglyph that was on fishman islands on the moon, so that anyone wishing to become roger's successor and get to laughtale had to fulfill that unfulfilled dream too
so the next arc is about getting to the moon for the last poneglyph
bonus tie to Elbaf arc is to use the World Tree's top as a launching point because it's the closest point to orbit
bonus tie to Vegapunk is that he's the one that builds the shuttle to get there

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@pure raven @ancient vault laugh at me now

lyric dust
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oh god please no

pure raven
zinc iris
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while I can't shake off the feeling that the actual moon is very plot relevant, I'm absolutely unconvinced by what I wrote above so I have 0% investment in such theory oustide of some select parts like Yggdrasil as the launching platform or vegapunk making a shuttle (and even the as an either/or instead of both happening at the same time)

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||but if any of the above happens I will still brag about it||

languid rune
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I hope they don’t go tbh

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Not a fan of the whole going to space trope

zinc iris
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a better idea that I actually champion from time to time as very plausible is that Uranus is a spaceship, the spaceship that the Birkans used to come to Earth from the Moon

zinc iris
languid rune
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Ehh ig

mellow silo
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Or franky surpasses vegapunk and does what he vegapunk has been trying to do for the world government this whole time which was get to the moon

mellow silo
pure raven
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I love the Uranus = Birkan spaceship stuff

zinc iris
# pure raven I love the Uranus = Birkan spaceship stuff

the 3 ancient weapons are each from one people and that gives it their name
poseidon is the god of the seas, so it's the ancient weapon of the sea people that are fishmen and mermen
pluton is the god of earth, so it's the ancient weapon of land people like humans
uranus is the god of sky, so it's the ancient weapon of the sky (moon) people

pure raven
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I remember this theory

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Comes equipped with the mural from Enel's cover story

zinc iris
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yes the birkans were technologically advanced anough to make it

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also fun theory about vegapunk actually being an alien using his advanced knowledge to speed Earth's progress

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however logic dictates that as the moon was abandoned then Uranus is somewhere on this planet currently

mellow silo
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How does the Noah tie into the story? Will it carry shgf members? Or serve another purpose

craggy pumice
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probably carries the fishman island population to the surface after luffy destroys it or something

mellow silo
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Hmmm that’s interesting

zinc iris
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but joyboy couldn't do his side of the job for some reason

pure raven
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The D. stands for disease and every D. member will inevitably succumb to it, dying early

zinc iris
mellow silo
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*Luffy punches from the moon to destroy marejois and some of the red line

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*Fish men get brought up to the surface

languid rune
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He could probably destroy fish man isjalnd in the process

mellow silo
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Yeah, hope some bs like that don’t acc happen tho

languid rune
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Cuz I mean the lady predicted it

mellow silo
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Maybe just Luffy on marejois destroys everything under him including fish man island

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Or just the simple route of him going back and destroying it, or what if the seakings break it due to shirahoshis power like how they were lowkey attacking in Rogers flashback while they were waiting for her birth

zinc iris
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or maybe the destruction of fishman island is necessary or an inevitable consequence of what it has to be done (eg destroying mary geoisie stainding exactly above it) and therefore noah always existed to evacuate the place for when it was going to happen and everyone accepted this necessity

pure raven
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Entry you're on fire today

zinc iris
languid rune
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Entry are u oda in disguise

zinc iris
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Hawkins's Tarot deck and Shiarly's crystal ball have divinatory powers because they are objects permanently altered by Observation Haki like the Black Blades are for Armament Haki

mellow silo
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That’s a juicy one

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Much better than them just having crazy observation

sand sail
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Hawkins' cards do more than just divine the future tho

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Apparently a whole lot more

deft elk
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i just caught up to the manga and...

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fk kanjuro

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😦

zinc iris
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@sand sail Initially I was going for the card deck being an item infused with a (likely) non-zoan df of some kind, but then would have left out the crystal ball, that Shyarly apparently actually needs for her vision

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but honestly that deck stumps me because it completely clashes with any other rule about extraordinary phenomena in one piece

lapis prairie
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Raftel isn't on the moon, Raftel tells you to go to the moon, that's why the roger pirates laughed

onyx fjord
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thats....uh...it is a theory that is for sure

shadow pike
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The theory I posted was serious; Bink's sake seems to be alluding to one piece (and I think Dawn in relation to 'D') and it wouldn't surprise me if brooke was asking that question because it actually had some symbolism. Maybe I'm completely off base

polar bison
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THEORY: Zoro, Conqueror's, and Enma.

tl;dr Zoro doesn't have Conqueror's, Enma is just being forged into a black blade, and also Kaidou's a dumbass

1010-008.png.jpeg
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Part 1: The Scene

Let's go thru Zoro's part in Ch 1010 real quick, just as a refresher and base for the theory: 1. Zoro tells Law that he's at his limit. 2. Then he tells Kaidou that if he wants Luffy's head, he'll have to take Zoro's first. 3. Then he slices Kaidou using his ultimate attack (or one of them). 4. Kaidou is surprised, and asks if he has conqueror's haki too. 5. Zoro denies knowledge of this, and reiterates that he just put everything into his attack, and had at least hoped to knock Kaidou down. 6. Then Kaidou finishes him and Law. 7. Luffy inquires about coating CoC, and Kaidou confirms his suspicions. 8. Then we see him and Kaidou clearly do it. I'll be referring back to these numbers throughout, so if you see a random one it's probably this.

so... let's be clear - we don't actually have anything except Kaidou's word to show that Zoro used CoC here. There's no black streaks typical of haki and especially conqueror's attacks/clashes, and it certainly wasn't an imbued attack like ragnaroku and Luffy's sandals. As far as we know, Asura itself isn't and has never been conqueror's haki, and doesn't fit with what we learned about it this chapter.

So now we have to talk about Kaidou. I've established that his word is the only hard proof we have that Zoro has CoC, at least so far as this chapter goes. So I now have to establish that Kaidou is at least somewhat unreliable, that there’s a question of whether or not he could mistake it for something else, or else I can’t further argue that Zoro doesn’t have Conqueror’s.

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Part 2: Kaidou's track record - Is he reliable?

Fortunately, I think Oda’s gone to great lengths to depict Kaidou as exactly the sort of person to do this. He's confused by the scabbards' ability to hurt him (Chapters 986 and 992 for reference), wondering at first if they used the same sort of Ryou/Haki as Oden, when in reality they simply became so strong through their own means (sulong/kitsunebi style/kappa style/raizou's scrolls/etc) that they were able to damage him just through that, and then also some of them learned Oden's Ryou/style to use on Kaidou as well. He's also confused about Enma's haki and how it interplays with Zoro's own. Finally, Kaidou himself seems unsure whether Zoro is even using it, given his claim is phrased as a question of disbelief.

And this is pretty consistent with Kaidou's character: oversimplified "might makes right" is the core of his character and crew philosophy. He believes the path to victory is... get a bunch of really strong people, make them stronger with physical enhancing devil fruits, and then get really big strong weapons to dominate the world.

In his crew, we see that they believe the strong are the best, and so the strong lead. If you want to become stronger, eat something that'll make you stronger. If you're weak, you're useless. "Strength" Is only defined through such things as physical ability, haki, and willingness to dominate others.

it's a very boring philosophy, but it's one Kaidou would have you believe is also true about hurting him. His scales and haki make him soo durable and strong that he imagines the only ways to hurt him are either insanely advanced armament haki, or infused conqueror's haki. But we have consistently been shown by the scabbards and Worst Generation members that this is wrong.

So yes, I think Kaidou is exactly the sort of person who would mistake Zoro's attack for something it wasn't due to an assumption about what can hurt him, or get confused by Enma's haki.

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Part 3: Enma

"Enma's haki???" you say, in disbelief and probably anger, but that's literally what Kaidou says. pic below. Obviously, some shit is going on. Let me illustrate it with manga panels, numbered for your convenience:)

  1. this just so happens to be the chapter where Zoro getting Enma is introduced, and sets up the fact that swords retain qualities of their former wielders
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  1. Enma is expanded on
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  1. Onimaru sets up that black blades are forged in battle, assumedly through some sort of haki related process
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  1. Enma, despite already being used several times against several opponents, reacts differently the instant it's put against Kaidou, and is highlighted as weird immediately by two extremely old and experienced yonkou.
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  1. Zoro again tries to cut Kaidou, and this time he succeeds, resulting in Kaidou directly noting Oden's haki emanating from the blade
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  1. Enma, again in anticipation of cutting Kaidou, reacts strangely, literally leaving the panel (something rarely done in One Piece)
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  1. Kaidou again senses weird energy from Zoro, and this time believes it to be conqueror's haki
Screen_Shot_2021-04-19_at_7.30.28_PM.png
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  1. There uhhhh, is a pretty consistent thread here. Zoro is unlocking and bringing out Enma's power... because he's slowly turning it into a black blade.
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And it's like... none of this, none of Zoro's arc in Wano, has had anything to do with conqueror's haki up until this point. There's no semblance or hint of it until Kaidou says otherwise, just trolls from Oda that would seem to suggest the exact opposite (Brook's comment to Zoro). Zoro's power up arc in wano has had to do with the black blade process. We don't know what that is, but we do know it's related to haki. And we have seen that Oden's haki remains within Enma, empowering it, not unlike how Shusui seemed to have its own personality and will at times. We are told that black blades are forged.

it really only makes sense that this is what Zoro is doing, forging a black blade. And if we accept that, then we must accept that Kaidou has likely mistaken Oden's haki - perhaps even conqueror's haki he'd infused into Enma in the past - for Zoro's own, because it makes far more sense than Zoro exhibiting conqueror's haki there.

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Part 4: Zoro's attack:

Yep! The biggest reason why I don't think Zoro used Conqueror's haki is pretty simple: Zoro's intent behind his attack, fundamentally speaking, was not to conquer Kaidou or overpower his will. It wouldn't make any sense for that to be an attack with conqueror's haki. He was fully aware that he stood no chance of such a thing, and states as such multiple times: 1. his intention for the attack is to save Luffy: he tells Kaidou to crush his skull first before Luffy's. 2. Zoro denies that he used conqueror's haki, stating it was simply his best attack possible. 3. He says he just hoped to knock Kaidou down. 3 is key, because it's why Kaidou simply couldn't have sensed that kind of haki from him there. Zoro wasn't trying to overcome Kaidou. He was trying to protect Luffy.

You know what might've had that sort of energy, though? Enma. Because Oden would want to conquer Kaidou, and we just went over how swords have souls and the haki of the previous wielders. In fact, we did so in specifically Zoro's part of the Wano arc, right as Enma was introduced to him.

Part 5: What's next, and Why

So we can see that Zoro seems to be working towards making Enma a black blade. We can see that progress is being made on this by targeting those that Oden himself wanted to cut down. And it should be pretty clear to everyone that Zoro, now that he's out of the fight with Kaidou, will be teaming up with Hiyori to avenge Tonoyasu and her father.

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I think the conclusion to Zoro's Wano arc in Onigashima seems pretty clear now. He's going to kill Orochi, for good, with Hiyori, both of them using one of Oden's blades to accomplish this. This will likely turn Enma into a black blade imo, as while Oden's will present in the blade is finally going to be satiated, so too will Zoro's own will to avenge Tonoyasu/protect Hiyori. I believe the melding of these two wills into one in order to defeat an opponent is what'll turn Enma black, and it'll permanently replace Shusui as Zoro's new black blade.

That's a pretty big jump, so the question has to be asked: why? Why is Oda doing this? How does it make sense?

And the answer is that, with what we now know of black blades, 1. Enma is just the most natural replacement to Shusui, and 2. forging/earning a black blade is a true test of swordsman skill, and will make Enma Zoro's in a way that Shusui never really was.

  1. Shusui, as it stands, is essentially Ryuma personified in a sword. His will has been forged into it, and it has a resulting distinct personality. And similarly, Enma is Oden personified as a sword. Both are the swords of famous samurai.

  2. The difference is that Zoro took Ryuma from Ryuma's corpse, long after it had stopped serving his will. He never really earned it, it was just happier with him than it was before. Zoro never earned Ryuma's respect, he earned Brook's shadow's respect. And so since Punk Hazard, it's been highlighted that Shusui belongs with Wano, not him. Enma will be different. Enma will be made his through the black blade forging, and through him doing what Oden couldn't. It's inherited will all the way down, baby.

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And like, speaking to anyone who'd be miffed by him not having CoC here, if it's Zoro's achievement forging this black blade in the midst of battle by fulfilling its previous owner's will and merging his will/haki with Oden's to make the blackblade,,, is that really not an earned power up? Can it really be said that Enma is just Oden being Zoro's strength, rather than Zoro using Oden's former strength and making it his own to enhance himself? And if this is the process of creating a black blade - which it clearly seems to be - then it's kind of the natural power up for him to get this arc, right?

But even then, maybe you say, "well Oda just wouldn't do that. He's not gonna pull a sanji raidsuit with Zoro. He wouldn't do that." look to the recent SBS where Oda said he'd want to give Zoro a Kaidou sword. A literal Kaidou sword. kiiiiiiinda makes sense that in canon he's getting an Oden sword, especially since it's replacing his Ryuma sword. And it's like,,, Zoro wielding a sword forged black in the will of the most powerfully insane samurai the world of One Piece has ever seen, the one he just spent half of Wano hyping up? That's something Oda would do imo. idk guys i rest my case

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Part 6: Why Zoro doesn't have CoC

So we've gone over why Zoro didn't use CoC in 1010, but that's kind of meaningless if he still has it. So let's go over why he doesn't have it, because this is actually really important to me, as I think Zoro's lack of CoC is crucial to understanding both it as a concept, and his character.

CoC is hard to define, but literally it closest means something like "coat of the conquering king". It's not just the will to conquer everyone, and it's not just the will to rule. It's a combination of the two. There is an aspect of inherent dominating will evident through its original use, and - as Marigold puts it - a "disposition to stand above others".

We can see this in pretty much every luffy fight. He fights for his ultimate freedom, and he does so by defeating oppressors. Every time Luffy goes up against an enemy, it becomes a battle of domination, and Luffy always dominates them and their worldview utterly. It's not just about himself. It's also about beating them. Luffy must personally surpass anyone who would threaten him, because if he's not strong enough to beat everyone who'd do such a thing, he can't protect his friends and himself while they're adventuring (examples include Lucci, Katakuri, but the first pic especially). And because Luffy is fundamentally about freedom, while he doesn’t want to dominate anyone, he understands that he must to ensure freedom for himself and the people he cares about, bc assholes who want to suffocate others' freedom exist. You hear that in most of his final dialogue to villains as he fights them (examples include Croc, Kaidou, but the second pic especially).

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Zoro, otoh? His fights are always personal tests, obligations due to his commitment to the crew, or both: he fights for no reason but himself and luffy. he’ll help others, but won’t fight for them unless captain’s orders or they’re his comrades at arms.

Beating and surpassing his opponent is never the point. He holds no grudge against Daz, or Kaku, or Ryuma. He didn't fight them because they're them. He fought Daz because he was in his crew's way and because he wanted to learn to cut iron. He fought Kaku because he had a key that might help Robin and was opposing his crew. He fought Ryuma because their job was to help the skeleton, and because he wanted Ryuma's sword. The point is always bettering himself or accomplishing the crew's (Luffy's) goals. And we see this with Mihawk, as well. Zoro holds no enmity against the man. The only reason he wishes to fight Mihawk is that Mihawk is his goal personified, and that inherent lack of enmity ran so deep that he was willing to train under Mihawk in order to accomplish this same goal of defeating them.

So like... Zoro doesn't dominate or wish to dominate anyone. The only things he wishes to surpass are his own limits (and, metaphorically speaking, Kuina). Being the strongest is a personal goal for him, not a competition against others. And we see this with both Hyouzou and Monet: they are not threats to him, and defeating them will not do anything for him, so he refuses to fight them until it's absolutely necessary for him to do so. He does not have the qualities of a conquering king. No one wants to follow Zoro, and he doesn't want to be followed. Fundamentally speaking, he is completely at odds with what being a conqueror is.

The best chapters to sum this difference between Zoro and Luffy up are in Alabasta when they win their first big GL fights.

Chs 206-9: Luffy defeats Croc, framing that defeat both as protecting his friends against an oppressor, and as surpassing him on his way to PK.

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Compare that to Zoro in Chs 193-195, and how he views defeating Daz Bones: It's a competition with himself, in order to become stronger. Daz Bones is just the unlucky man who ended up against him. He says he even pities him. There's no conquering Daz Bones there. There's only conquering himself and his own limitations.

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Part 7: Conclusion (And any Misc edits)

I'm a big fan of Zoro's character, he's always been between my first and fifth favorite Strawhat, and for a time growing up was definitely my favorite overall OP character. And a big part of my appreciation has always come from the small complexities oda puts in behind the simple badass exterior of Zoro. that he isn't a conqueror is definitely one of the ones I like most. It's such a good character trait, and not one I'm willing to let go of. I think it's a strength of Zoro's character that he doesn't have conqueror's, and it wouldn't make sense to change that reality.

@pastel summit put it best earlier today, when he compared this chapter to Zoro slicing Monet and simulating a conqueror's effect then as well. After all, what's more in line with Zoro? having conqueror's, the thing singling out the chosen few who stand above everyone else? or simply being so fucking scary badass that he can simulate its effects through sheer aura and power?

personally im on board with #2 but ig u think zoro is lame u probably think he has CoC. that's it that's the theory u can be assholes now

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@dusky acorn it's been a week but we got there

Screen_Shot_2021-04-19_at_9.27.48_PM.png
pastel summit
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now we just have to wait 2 more years until this is proven or disproven

polar bison
#

i didn't do a whole lot of editing with this also so i apologize if it doesn't make as much sense it should

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and i promise that's my fault not the theory's

onyx fjord
#

this is very impressive

tawdry bramble
#

Wow that’s a lot text for denying the obvious

dusky acorn
#

Wow, this is really interesting. You know, this makes sense with how Kaido paused for a moment, took a moment to feel his scar, and THEN questioned if Zoro had Conqeurors. It's almost as if the residue from the slash itself made Kaido think that, which goes in tandem with Enma being responsible for it, not Zoro himself radiating it.

Also, the fact that Law didn't comment on the supposed haki whatsoever. Kaido was the only one who took notice of it, possibly due to him being the one actually getting hurt by the blade and feeling it. This fits with how Kaido would naturally be fooled since he has an unfamiliarity with the concept of blackening blades, there's only one known precedent in the entire present-time.

polar bison
tawdry bramble
#

Yeah I’m amazed someone would waste that much time trying to contradict obvious author fed information.

pastel summit
#

waiting for someone to write a comprehensive theory on why zoro has CoC beyond "kaido said so"

tawdry bramble
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Good write up no doubt. Just sad.

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Don’t really need to. It was the theme of the chapter. It’s an open and shut case.

clear marsh
#

I think it’s the same haki as luffy used earlier to hit kaido with red roc

polar bison
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yea,,, luffy's CoC was the theme of the chapter

pastel summit
#

yeah, tell me where did zoro use coc?

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if it's a theme of the chapter, surely it should be obvious, right?

tawdry bramble
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He used it when doing his Ashura attack. As stated by Kaidou

dusky acorn
pastel summit
#

in what capacity did he use it?

onyx fjord
tawdry bramble
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He used it to attack.

dusky acorn
#

The fact that Oda would choose to power up Zoro's sword with a fruit instead of him is enticing as well. The concept of black blades and Enma are what has been continually emphasised for Zoro, not this specific haki that doesn't have to do with his swordsmanship

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Kanjuro being Oden

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And that was like, right after the spoilers dropped

pastel summit
#

there's no indication that he used it beyond kaido's word. so pull up a panel of zoro using CoC that isn't Kaido saying it.

tawdry bramble
#

That was a super easy prediction. Most people were saying that.

polar bison
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not when I said it

tawdry bramble
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Well that’s the first time we know for a fact he used it. Because you know. Kaidou said so.

onyx fjord
#

most were saying it was the sword dog creature i forget the name of

polar bison
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just like Kaidou said the scabbards must all be using ryou or else they wouldn't be able to hurt him

tawdry bramble
#

And he was right

polar bison
#

good thing we have such strong precedent of Kaidou being a reliable source of information on power

pastel summit
#

No Omni, most people were saying Onimaru, not Kanjuro. Kanjuro was a really small secondary possibility to most people.

tawdry bramble
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Yes he was correct. Their haki bloomed.

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Well most speculation I saw was people saying Kanjuro.

gloomy canyon
polar bison
# tawdry bramble And he was right

pray tell where was the haki in the blast breath Raizou returned to Kaidou, or the Sulong-powered attacks Neko and Inu gave him, or in Kawamatsu's Kappa style, or in Kin's foxfire style?

pastel summit
tawdry bramble
#

Lol

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He used it in his ashura attack. As stated by Kaidou. It’s pretty simple.

polar bison
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as questioned by kaidou

tawdry bramble
#

One Piece doesn’t use unreliable narrator

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When character speak they are essentially word of god 99% of the time.

pastel summit
#

kaido never states anything. You still haven't answered to what capacity, which just proves you're speedreading, not only my messages, but the manga, which brings into question, why should I trust you?

tawdry bramble
#

Lol this is a hoot.

vestal rampart
#

do yall think that enma draws out ryou similar to oden's even tho zoro doesn't know how to use ryou like that?

dusky acorn
# gloomy canyon You're leaving us?? <:sad:669517186921922585>

Sorry Evan. Frankly I find this route of giving more emphasis to Zoro's swordsmanship down the line and leading to a more sensible blackening of Enma way more intriguing than Zoro having a repeat of that same haki category his captain already has

tawdry bramble
#

Guess we can’t confirm Luffy is using CoC either. Nobody specifically said he was

pastel summit
#

Oh, I guess Luffy is beating Big Mom and Orochi then? I guess Luffy is beating Jack. I guess Zoro is defeating Kaido? I guess Luffy beat Fujitora in Dressrosa?

onyx fjord
#

is the Zoro doesnt have CoC theory going in the pins

dusky acorn
#

Also, didn't Kaido say he thought he saw the visage of Oden in the Scabbards? And that actually didn't amount to much

tawdry bramble
#

We don’t even know for sure that Roger and Whitebeard were doing it either technically.

polar bison
pastel summit
#

there's actual visual indication of Luffy using CoC and actual visible effects. There's no visual or aftereffects of Zoro using CoC.

tawdry bramble
#

You don’t know that. You’re technically assuming

pastel summit
#

so are you.

onyx fjord
#

shoutout to Morj's theory. comedy

pastel summit
#

but you're acting like you're not and thus anyone who questions it is objectively incorrect.

tawdry bramble
#

It’s never stated that’s what CoC imbuement looks like.

#

Yes it’s an objective fact Zoro has conquerors haki

pastel summit
#

will you drop One Piece if he doesn't?

tawdry bramble
#

Because that’s how reading comprehension works.

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No that’s ridiculous lol.

pastel summit
#

coward. You're 100% sure, but not willing to take a bet like that? that means you're not 100% sure, but still acting like you are.

tawdry bramble
#

Lol

dusky acorn
#

If Oda would have Zoro truly have a first use of Conqeurors haki, don't you think he would have written him some actual fodder around the rooftop to knock out? It's left vague to a degree, no matter what Kaido has said

tawdry bramble
#

Sure I’ll quit one piece if he doesn’t have it as long as your punk ass quits if he does

static girder
#

"Between my first and fifth favorite strawhat" out of like 10

pastel summit
#

why? I'm not 100% sure. You are.

tawdry bramble
#

Lol

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Coward. I think that’s the term you used.

pastel summit
#

I'm just questioning your confidence in saying he 100% has it. I've never stated he 100% doesn't have it.

tawdry bramble
#

Reading the chapter explains the chapter. He clearly has it. It’s stated he has it.

pastel summit
#

remove kaido's dialogue, where is it clear he has it?

tawdry bramble
#

Kaidou is a reliable source on being hit with CoC imbuement. It’s the whole point of the chapter.

dusky acorn
#

It'd told he has it by one source, not shown or reaffirmed

tawdry bramble
#

Kaidou’s dialogue is confirmation enough.

pastel summit
#

did you even read the theory? Too long for peanut brain? He's not a reliable source at all. PepeLaugh

tawdry bramble
#

He’s plenty reliable. Don’t have to@agree with everything in the theory.

dusky acorn
#

Law was literally right there, all Oda needed was one panel with him to restate it and we wouldn't be here right now

pastel summit
#

why would he be reliable when he's gotten things wrong and backtracked on stuff?

tawdry bramble
#

Nobody needs that besides zoro haters

pastel summit
#

He thought the scabbards were comparable to Oden, then said "no wait, you're not even close to him"

tawdry bramble
#

Yeah I’m sure Kaidou is going to backtrack on Zoro having conquereors haki

last halo
tawdry bramble
#

What great storytelling to fake zoro having conquerors haki despite all the build up to it being a thing

pastel summit
#

I don't even hate zoro, but people think questioning him having CoC is me hating him. As always, zorotards are the most insufferable people in this community.

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what lead up? brook making a joke?

tawdry bramble
#

In this scenario the zorotards are just reading the chapter

dusky acorn
#

It's not bad storytelling if the fake-out is meant to serve as a segway into the blackening of Zoro's blade, the real thing that's been built up all arc

tawdry bramble
#

Meanwhile ya’ll aren’t coping but are certainly seething.

pastel summit
#

waiting for the lead up. You don't get to just say there's lead up and not actually say what lead up there was.

tawdry bramble
#

Monet scenario. Brooke scenario. Kaidou stating it.

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Zoro being a mega badass. Seems to@confirm it right there.

dusky acorn
#

Monet helps go against Zoro's case on Conqeurors, I believe Khi did address this in their theory lol

tawdry bramble
#

Roger-Luffy Rayleigh- Zoro parellels

sacred hawk
#

What if Kawamatsu isn't using Ryuo, but is just instinctually applying Fishman Karate to swordsmanship

tawdry bramble
#

The entire argument against it is awful. No offense to the person who spent time trying to play devils advocate.

pastel summit
#

as always the same stuff. "brook making a joke" and "muh parallels". The Monet thing is definitely against him having it. I don't see how that helps the case, unless you're saying he used CoC back in PH and no one else felt it except Monet?

tawdry bramble
#

Hey. Did you read 1010. Where Kaidou states Zoro has conquerors haki

pastel summit
#

Nope. because kaidou doesn't state anything.

tawdry bramble
#

Open and shut.

pastel summit
tawdry bramble
#

Well then Luffy isn’t imbuing it. There’s not enough proof.

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We don’t know for sure what imbuing your attacks with CoC means. Luffy never says he’s doing it. Kaidou never says he’s doing it.

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Same shitty logic. The story is obviously telling you he’s imbuing his attacks with CoC.

pastel summit
#

sure. He may not be. It's a safer assumption to make than Zoro having CoC, but yes. You are technically correct in that we cannot definitively say Luffy is using CoC coating.

tawdry bramble
#

But on some dumb technically bullshit you’re trying to discredit Oda’s writing by saying Zoro doesn’t have CoC

dusky acorn
#

Kaido merely questioned his coc, and it wasn't even in the exact moment. If Zoro was blaring Conquerors going into the attack (which him, a theoretically inexperienced Coc user should have been), shouldn't that have been something Kaido took note of beforehand? He only realised it many seconds after being wounded

tawdry bramble
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Maybe zoro can only imbue it. We have no clue.

sacred hawk
#

Hot take: Kid doesn't actually have conquerors haki

tawdry bramble
#

Not every use of haki is the same.

pastel summit
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It's not a technicality. There's physical evidence for what Luffy is doing being different to what he did before. There's nothing different about what Zoro did to Kaido. He used an Asura attack, and it cut Kaido. There's no visual indication of CoC, and Kaido questions in disbelief, he doesn't state.

nocturne iron
#

pop corn

gloomy canyon
#

@polar bison Don't even disagree with your theory other than a few things but not enough to say it's wrong or I'm in full disagreement with it. More of a personal issue I have with Oda hinting this shit. I find it unnecessary. You can say people have mistaken Zoro for captain in the past it's the same concept, but there we instantly knew Zoro wasn't actually the captain. I was on board with Zoro just being a naturally intimidating person and I agree with most things you said about Zoro's character. But now that Oda gave us this, god I would feel so exhausted if this wasn't actually the case. I don't disagree with you nor do I expect people to agree with me, it's just a personal stigma I would have with this moment if what you said turned out to be the case. But great theory, well written and presented, and you clearly put a lot of time into it. Nicely done

sacred hawk
#

The only source stating that Kid has CoC was Kaido's own words. But Kaido isn't a reliable narrator, so Kid might not actually have CoC

unknown.png
pastel summit
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"we have no clue" but you're arguing it's definitive he used it? Apparently Kaido can't just be mistaken? Because "nooo, it's too cruel to bait us 30 IQ zorotards into believing zoro used CoC!!! we lack free thought, so if the manga states it, it must be true"

tawdry bramble
#

Lol kid doesn’t have it either r

pastel summit
tawdry bramble
#

Well fuck we don’t even know if Kaidou really has it.

sacred hawk
#

He literally says "You too?" after seeing him use it

nocturne iron
#

🍿

tawdry bramble
#

Everyone saying Kaidou has CoC is an unreliable narrator

#

We have no proof.

pastel summit
#

we do.

tawdry bramble
#

Nope. Just Luffy asking a question.

dusky acorn
#

We see people knocked out

pastel summit
#

^

tawdry bramble
#

Seems shakey. Never seen him use it before. There is no proof those indicators are what you think

pastel summit
#

Again, no visual indication. Which has never been the case for actually using CoC. We've had people say others have CoC, but we've never had a use of CoC that wasn't deliberately indicated visually.

tawdry bramble
#

So Kaidou doesn’t have it.

pastel summit
#

it's visually indicated he does.

#

you're failing to read, which is not a surprise.

tawdry bramble
#

Where? What proof. We have no story elements saying what it looks like.

pastel summit
grizzled fog
#

Y’all just gonna fling shit in bad faith now?

pastel summit
#

the wiki doesn't cut it, you have to try reading the actual manga if you want to tell what's going on.

tawdry bramble
#

Like the actual Manga that this most recent chapter stated Zoro has CoC?

sacred hawk
tawdry bramble
#

Telling me to read the manga and can’t even read the most recent fucking chapter. My god.

dusky acorn
#

This is probably going to go in circles. Omni, if you really want to buckle down and thoroughly debunk this you're best off responding and trying to attack all of Khione's points in their posts

tawdry bramble
#

Well you see Derp. Luffy is also@unreliable!

dusky acorn
#

There was visual indicators from Kaido's Ragnaraku though, there was tons of haki trailing out of his club, just like Roger and Whitebeard's clash

tawdry bramble
pastel summit
#

Manga is not just a text-based medium omni. It's also visual.

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There are images you have to process if you want the full story.

tawdry bramble
#

You’re an ass.

sacred hawk
#

Luffy, a beginner at using advanced CoC, was able to recognize the technique after getting hit by it. So I don't see why Kaido, an experienced user, would get confused

unknown.png
dusky acorn
#

Alright let's not make this a completely personal debate, just head on your way and don't let things elevate badly

gloomy canyon
#

Both sides are valid. People who don't think Zoro has CoC for reasons mostly covered in Khione's theory bring a lot of good counters to why Zoro shouldn't have CoC. But the foundation of this recent chapter of Kaido heavily hinting at it, is a strong enough foothold to use for now until proven otherwise. I'm more against the idea of Oda baiting like this. Coz to me, that's what it is. Pretty similar to how I feel about fake out deaths. And it would just be exhausting. Some may think it's a testament to Zoro for someone like Kaido to confuse his strong attack for CoC, but I would just find it irritating. Fucking compliment Zoro without bringing CoC up, it would be so easy. "You are the first person to permanently damage me since Oden. I underestimated your generation" or some shit like that. Why bring up CoC. It's just exhausting feelsexhaustedman

pastel summit
#

because kaido is cocky and arrogant. Read the theory. It's so perfectly in line with his character to think the only way to hurt him is superior haki, of which, conqueror's is the most superior. Zoro's attack did the most damage to Kaido thus far, so it's in character for him to just... assume shit. He literally expresses disbelief.

dusky acorn
gloomy canyon
#

At this point, I don't think you're wrong, or your side doesn't have very strong things going for it

dusky acorn
#

If souls of swordsmen are really 'stored' in their blades like Kawamatsu pointed out, then it stands to reason for Kaido to potentially feel Conqeurors from the attack itself

sacred hawk
onyx fjord
dusky acorn
#

Yea there you go, I'll add it to the pins as well, hope we don't get too clogged

sacred hawk
#

Also, I feel like claiming that the CoC is stored in enma is making a lot of assumptions about how CoC works.

onyx fjord
gloomy canyon
#

But I don't think Oda **HAD ** to bring up CoC up for that. He could have just said he felt Oden's presence again which would be the same thing. But he said CoC. I'm not even using this to counter your points, I'm just saying this is clearly something that can be perceived as Oda doing his misdirection bait thing. Call me cynical, I just don't like it when/if he does stuff like that

pastel summit
#

I don't think Kaido actually "sensed" anything, so I disagree on the Enma stuff. I'm sure Enma is relevant in terms of drawing out the power, but I think the fact he grabs the wound first THEN says something is like "wait... I'm wounded... and pretty badly too?" Then he's like "no way, that kid..." he questions HOW he got wounded. Kaido is essentially an Oden fanboy. We've seen it throughout the arc. He holds Oden in such a high regard, that emulating him is some miraculous feat.

dusky acorn
pastel summit
#

I don't think it's really a misdirect. I think people were just too rooted in the idea of zoro having CoC because they think it's cool, and when there's some actual in-universe indication of it, it's like years, almost a decade of this self-made build up, and it's like "well if he goes back on it, it's like he was baiting us for 10 yrs and then backtracked". I think Zoro was always indicated to NOT have CoC.

onyx fjord
#

I have trouble believing it can reasonably be right with such little textaul evidence and how much extrapolation is needed

dusky acorn
#

We know so little about Rocks but at least the DF idea I agree with, it fits his general ship look and motif OMEGALUL

onyx fjord
#

if this theory is wrong i would die irl

unknown.png
pastel summit
#

I should do a write up on the ancient kingdom, but it's too hard. there's too many pieces, and they're all fractured.

onyx fjord
#

it feels canon even though its not

dusky acorn
#

Does sound hard to cohesively tie everything together, but I've been really looking forward to you writing that theory

gloomy canyon
#

I know Oda could care less what fans disagree with and is gonna do what he wants to do but like... what did he think was gonna happen. Does Zoro have CoC or not? .... OMG KAIDO IS HINTING AT ZORO HAVING COC ... oh man, Zoro doesn't have CoC, but this is alternative is wayyyyy better!! No that's just not gonna happen. If he didn't want to give Zoro CoC and focus on this black blade, enma, swordsmanship shit then all the ups and downs of hyping up fans and then altering their expectations could have just been avoided if he didn't even attach CoC to Zoro's name. Zoro's cool new powerup NEVER had to be hinted at with CoC. That's just building up expectations and changing it for no reason.

onyx fjord
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i mean the inherited will theory did the ancient kingdom nicely and that was written during punk hazard i think

gloomy canyon
#

Idk, I don't care anymore, as long as it's not Oden's actual haki we're cool

pastel summit
#

inherited will theory?

onyx fjord
#

whats the process for getting the mod approval to do a write-up in this channel since i assume slow mode gets turned off when the theories are posted

onyx fjord
gloomy canyon
#

My Sabo and Doffy theory will be done by tomorrow Shim I promise. But I really need to disclaim that this isn't even something I am 100% on board with, it's just a potential possibility of some of the reverie cleanup. It requires a lot of assumptions of what went down at Reverie, and Oda has made it to where there are just so many possibilities of what could have gone down. Super hard to speculate on, but the theory I'm writing for tomorrow is just one of them

dusky acorn
onyx fjord
dusky acorn
#

We just delete any messages in between the write-up that other people post, so don't worry about other users sneaking in messages in the middle

onyx fjord
#

Ah gotcha

pastel summit
onyx fjord
gloomy canyon
#

Too hard to tell and haven't gone super in depth in making a theory about the AK, but I also kinda believe that the people who came down from the moon helped form the AK in some way

grizzled fog
#

Khione’s theory is good, I’m a little more warmed up to the idea now

onyx fjord
pastel summit
#

but there's a lot. I should do it before Wano ends, so I can see what I get right or wrong. I think after Wano it's just gonna be a lot more obvious on the origins of the AK and also what OP is.

onyx fjord
#

there is no cover story that comes close to the amount of coverage and discussion as Enel's

onyx fjord
pastel summit
#

well, we got an idea of what is on Laugh Tale, not necessarily what the One Piece is.

onyx fjord
#

We sort of know the nature of it I'd argue

pastel summit
#

could be separate things.

onyx fjord
#

because whats the point of having multiple separate treasures--isn't the point that all the treasure was kept together in one piece

pastel summit
#

well, multiple parts to make a whole.

#

that's what the poneglyphs are as well.

gloomy canyon
# onyx fjord it is fascinating how influential Enel's cover story is in theorycrafting

Definitely an important one. Basically, I think the Ancient Kingdom is going to be mostly inspired off of the Legend of Libertalia (or Libertatia). A pirate colony where people of "colors, creeds, and beliefs were free of any scrutiny". I think the AK consisted of practically every race which could indicate why a giant like Saul is a D. And I think the people who came down from the moon helped form it and gave it advanced technology and knowledge.

#

I can't really say much more than that, coz I haven't thought too hard, but that's my basic idea

onyx fjord
pastel summit
gloomy canyon
#

yep, the city of Birka (on the moon) could be a big hint towards the Ancient Kingdom

pastel summit
#

I just... don't know how exactly Skypeians or Birkans fit into it. Idk why they stayed in the sky.

rain spade
rain spade
pastel summit
#

they left the moon before celestial dragons were a thing.

#

or are you saying they left to the sky after the void century? could be possible.

nocturne iron
#

So guys. You guys have these Big long write ups about character super powers and who's going to beat who. But let's here theories on why Luffy blows up fishperson island.

rain spade
onyx fjord
#

fishperson island

rain spade
onyx fjord
rain spade
nocturne iron
#

Me and I wrote it on purpose :D

onyx fjord
rain spade
nocturne iron
#

Sashimiperson island.

rain spade
#

anyways i doubt luffy will blow fishman island

nocturne iron
#

Oh I am certain he will blow up fishman island.

rain spade
gloomy canyon
#

The Ancient Kingdom being similar to the legend of Libertalia contrasts the current World Government perfectly.

nocturne iron
#

We know sharyl' theories haven't been wrong. I am sure he will blow it up. The motivation is what I am curious about.

onyx fjord
pastel summit
#

we don't know for certain luffy will blow it up. All she said was she saw someone with a straw hat standing over a destroyed fishman island. She never saw who destroyed it, or how it was destroyed.

#

and we know there are at least 2 straw hats.

rain spade
#

the fishmen will try to make a move to the worl above but the world govt tryna will try to stop them and hold them hostage as they somehow know that luffy is close to them

onyx fjord
#

no they dont?

gloomy canyon
#

It's going to be Luffy transporting the fishmen up to the surface (just like they always dreamed) with the Noah, and when Marie Jois and that section of the red line is destroyed it will crumble onto and destroy FMI as FMI is directly below Marie Jois. Obviously it's just a misinterpretation by Sharley

onyx fjord
#

they somehow know that luffy is close to them
where is this suggested

rain spade
onyx fjord
rain spade
pastel summit
# gloomy canyon The Ancient Kingdom being similar to the legend of Libertalia contrasts the curr...

honestly, the more I think about it, the more everything ties together. We have Mary Geoise castle being called Pangaea Castle, which can tie into the ancient kingdom being multiple nations and they stole the name after destroying it. We have the continent puller that could've been used to literally pull the ancient kingdom apart. We have multiple different countries of different races explicitly tied to the void century (minks, fishmen, humans (wano/alabasta), moon people (shandora, likely birka as well)).

gloomy canyon
#

Yeah it really does all tie in together. Would absolutely love if the continent pullers actually pulled apart the Ancient Kingdom (like Pangea).

pastel summit
#

name of the ancient kingdom being pangaea could fit in as well with why the WG doesn't want the name to be known.

nocturne iron
#

I wonder what about the void century history is funny. Roger laughed at joyboys story.

pastel summit
#

since I assume it's known to a degree that their place is called pangaea castle.

rain spade
gloomy canyon
#

Would be cool. Like they named Pangea Castle, the bastion and representation of their empire, after the Kingdom they ripped apart.

onyx fjord
#

does anyone know if there are any alternate theories for how the all blue exists besides the red line being blown up? Im curious cause i cant comprehend any other possibility

gloomy canyon
#

There really isn't one. The All Blue can only exist where all 4 seas would converge. So reverse Mountain or Marie Jois.

onyx fjord
#

it just seems slightly lame for it to have such an obvious answer

rain spade
#

there will be a lot of damage other than the debris of the redline

gloomy canyon
#

Doubt the entire red line is destroyed

onyx fjord
rain spade
#

there will be consequences a human cannot comprehend

gloomy canyon
#

Just the section with Mary Geoise and maybe Reverse Mountain.

onyx fjord
#

the red line has to be blown up

rain spade
#

why is the "has"

onyx fjord
# rain spade why

okay so your options are

  1. The All Blue never happens and Sanji never accomplishes his main goal
  2. You blow up part of the red line
#

which do you think seems more logical in a story like One Piece

pastel summit
rain spade
gloomy canyon
#

The red line itself divides the entire world. You could say it represents the very opposite of freedom, which is what this story is really about. The destruction of the red line would be a symbol of uniting the world together, literally and geographically.

rain spade
rain spade
onyx fjord
gloomy canyon
onyx fjord
foggy sand
#

how will you even navigate to laugh tale if a log pose can't take you there ?

onyx fjord
pastel summit
#

because it's an area that hasn't been explored which could have its own mini ecosystem that has been unchanged for 800 yrs, and represents what the world was like prior?

gloomy canyon
#

we don't know, kind of the point of the 4 road poneglyphs for to tell us

rain spade
# gloomy canyon explain?

lemme take an example that is not one piece

u know how the human body is structured right
it holds the human body together whist dividing it

foggy sand
rain spade
pastel summit
onyx fjord
onyx fjord
pastel summit
#

Well, the island is obviously not part of the grand line, else it would have its own magnetic field. So it can just have something that keeps the fish there? Some kind of special nutrients or food or some special properties. It's not unfeasible.

onyx fjord
#

also I think the all blue would have to be much larger than a mini ecosystem surrounding Laugh Tale

rain spade
foggy sand
onyx fjord
rain spade
onyx fjord
gloomy canyon
dense wing
#

I also want to point out that I don’t believe the entire Red Line has to be destroyed

The destruction could happen specifically where Mariejois is located and it would be a place where all 4 Blues connect

Need to double check where Mariejois is to confirm

pastel summit
gloomy canyon
#

Yes tbh, destroying those individual points is most likely. I don't expect them to literally blow up a continent that size lol

rain spade
dense wing
#

Maybe All Blue was around during the Ancient Kingdom, before the Red Line was formed somehow

That’s completely my headcanon though

rain spade
dense wing
#

Like I’m wondering why All Blue is a legend in the first place

pastel summit
#

well, there's a reason the power of poseidon is necessary then? We already know fishmen can control currents. I'd assume sea kings can do it even better. So if they can do that, then they can probably prevent storms also.

onyx fjord
dense wing
dense wing
rain spade
pastel summit
#

why would you assume she would die from speaking commands? It's never stated to be some life-draining power. It's literally just communicating.

onyx fjord
rain spade
onyx fjord
pastel summit
#

my dude, people have survived literally months without eating. They survive days fighting without break. I'm sure she'll be fine.

dense wing
onyx fjord
#

god forbid one full day of talking when needed

onyx fjord
dense wing
#

Similar to Noah I’d assume

onyx fjord
#

the sea king army ALL pulling pluton seems to be a bit farfetched

#

the calm belt is what a bazillion sea kings?

dense wing
#

I mean not all of them

But honestly it’s just a theory and we need to wait for Uranus

onyx fjord
#

fs

rain spade
onyx fjord
dense wing
onyx fjord
#

enies lobby arc was pretty much all about that lmao

pastel summit
#

honestly, I wonder what the deal behind noah is. The fishmen can literally just... swim to the surface. even children could do it. I'm sure there's a deeper purpose than just being sea transport for people whose very existence is about traversing through the sea.

gloomy canyon
# rain spade that is there but then the new world and paradise would mix together if i am not...

Basically here's my thing. Me and Choc were talking about it above, but I think the Ancient Kingdom could have been one giant place/nation where ALL the races and people lived harmoniously and in an advanced society filled with an abundance of knowledge and most importantly: Freedom. The oppressive WG is formed during the Void Century and destroys that kingdom and creates a world wide dictatorship with them as the "gods". Now, if I were the leader of that government who has been in power for the last 800 years, the last thing I would want is a nation or kingdom like that ever reappearing again. So what do I do? I LITERALLY divide the world geographically. It's the best way to keep everyone under wraps and their control. You can't form a united nation of peace and freedom, if the world literally divides you. That's why I also think the Red Line is a structure that came to be during the void century some how. We literally have things like Oars being called a "continent puller", and I like Choc's idea of the Ancient Kingdom being called Pangea. And the WG literally ripped it apart and "divided" the world.

onyx fjord
#

i think we were discussing that here last night actually; the theory of pluton being noah

dense wing
grizzled fog
#

So the Ancient Kingdom was basically BM’s dream realized? Interesting

onyx fjord
#

that just sounds odd given BM inherited her dream from a fraudster

gloomy canyon
#

No I think Totland is actually a sub version of what the Ancient Kingdom represented

dense wing
onyx fjord
dense wing
#

It’s all but confirmed Shirahoshi as Poseidon will raise them up

Most likely as Luffy is somehow destroying the Red Line

onyx fjord
gloomy canyon
#

It's not that odd tbh. I think the Ancient Kingdom is based off of Libertalia, and there's a reason why Saul is D. I think it was made up of practically every race, including the people who came down from the moon. I think Totland is actually the opposite of that but had the same vision. It's meant to be a paradise for all races, but we know that's not really the case

pastel summit
rain spade
dense wing
#

I believe the Kozuki’s are connected to the Ancient Kingdom and Joy Boy somehow, as they have the Voice of All Things

onyx fjord
#

if we are to believe the D. descend from this ancient kingdom and we know the D. are the enemies of the "gods" (celestial dragons). The most obvious antithesis to gods are devils. Will of the devils would make an abundance of sense in this context but i really fucking hate the idea of Monkey Devil Luffy

grizzled fog
onyx fjord
#

also why the borders "must be opened in anticipation of the return of joyboy" and all

rain spade
#

what does the large straw hat represent ??

dense wing
dense wing
gloomy canyon
dense wing
#

Also both Oden and Momo interacted with their respective “Joy boys” as I call them, Roger and Luffy

onyx fjord
dense wing
#

Actually yeah you’re right

I also believe all D’s are descendants of Ancient Kingdom citizens

So maybe the Kozuki are separate

onyx fjord
#

ill be damned if the ancient kingdom doesnt end up coming to fruition in some capacity

gloomy canyon
#

But that's the thing, Wano may never have actually been apart of the Ancient Kingdom, just closely allied, so it would make sense why none of them have the D initial.

dense wing
gloomy canyon
onyx fjord
wind geode
#

and from where is toki? 🤔

onyx fjord
pure raven
#

who knows

dense wing
onyx fjord
rain spade
gloomy canyon
#

She's an Amatsuki, which was one of the 5 original Daimyo clans that served the Kozuki

dense wing
#

The flashback is what Robin is reading essentially, but we get to see it

rain spade
dense wing
#

Though I’m not sure if everyone on Laugh Tale waited for Oden to finish reading before they started laughing

#

But Roger said “that’s a funny story” so who knows

rain spade
#

imma come back to this chat after 10 years byee

dense wing
#

Unless the freaking ghost of Joy Boy narrated to them

onyx fjord
nocturne iron
#

Bai. Have a gud life.

onyx fjord
#

taking the parallel to a whole new level

dense wing
#

The Voice of all things is just Joy Boy’s ghost whispering in your ear

#

But anyway serious theories only

onyx fjord
#

thoughts on the binks sake-laugh tale parallel theory

pastel summit
languid rune
#

What do u guys think abt the” shanks being a villain “theory

maiden terrace
#

maybe it'd be cool

cedar sinew
#

may work for other series but not oda's style

gloomy canyon
# pastel summit I mean, this could be the case. but there are no minks, fishmen or sky people wi...

yeahhh I am surprised that Saul is the only non human D. that we know of so far. I don't think that takes away from the idea that the AK consisted of all these races, because we know fishmen, minks, and giants all have ties back to JoyBoy/Void Century. It feels weird that Saul is the only outlier to the point where I think it's very intentional. Just headcanon here but maybe the members of the D clan from the other races died off sometime in the last 800 years. Or maybe all these races were just allies of the AK, either way, they were linked somehow. And I still think the Kingdom was an advanced civilization where freedom among all people/races was key. And the new WG directly opposed that. Also kind of interesting how there are only humans and giants in the marines, with giants only being a recent addition. Even the damn Tontattas were oppressed into slave labor by the DonQuixotes of 900 years ago, and it's no surprise that they became one of the 20 original families of the WG

#

Idk, maybe Oda will introduce more D's in flashbacks

pastel summit
#

yeah. It could be possible that there was just a core "ancient kingdom" and everyone else was just allied. I think that's probably the most likely.

gloomy canyon
#

possibly, and if that's the case, that would be my guess as to what Wano's relationship with the Ancient Kingdom was

surreal harness
#

what u think about that koi dragonlegend, who have tiger fruit?

polar bison
# pastel summit I don't think Kaido actually "sensed" anything, so I disagree on the Enma stuff....

yeah i think this could be it. I included Enma potentially having Oden's haki because some people will insist that there's no way Kaidou could just mistake a regular attack for a coc one, and that's the logical counter argument that is consistent with him already getting confused by enma's presence... but i do think he could and would get confused just by a strong blow. with people like diamante and flampe being able to detect CoC clashes, tho, there's a question of how that'd all work.

pastel summit
#

for sure, but like, if we assume regular CoC is kind of like a wave of pressure, then I'm sure it's possible to emulate that as well. It may not knock people out, but people could still feel it and be like "woah, that was weird. it felt kind of like CoC" and then just go with that's what it was. We don't really know if there's some super unique thing that goes with it beyond the knocking out. and I'm sure it'd be the same with CoC coating. It seems to be just souped up armament coating. Maybe the only way to identify it is by the effect it causes?

nocturne iron
#

My theory from rewatching fishman island. Since shirahoshi is a giant and Luffy is normal size. The last Poseidon was tiny, while joy boy was giant. :D

mild kite
#

God, I can't wait for Oda to confirm Zoro's Coc so we stop getting these delusional theories

fallow knot
fallow knot
junior cape
# gloomy canyon yeahhh I am surprised that Saul is the only non human D. that we know of so far....

I imagine "The Will of D." Is less about being a human, or allies with the ancient kingdom, and more about being a hyper-influential figure in your time. Take a look at every 'D.' we've met so far, and you'll see them surrounded by world-shaking events. For J.D.Saul, it was the Ohara incident, and the freeing of Nico Robin. For P.D.Ace, it was the Paramount War, and the birthing of the Worst Generation. For T.D.W.Law, it's the takedown of C.Clown, DQ.Doflamingo, and soon to be Kaido. On the flipside, we have M.D.Garp, hero of the marines, arch-nemesis to G.D.Roger, and destroyer of the LEGENDARILY POWERFUL Rocks Pirates. Each and every one of these people, either through the hands of Fate or sheer human will, has altered the course of the world by their own hands, and is renowned for it.

#

I'm sure that if Oda had focused more on the other species of OP, we would've run into more non-strictly-human D.s

#

But my point is, it isn't about bloodline, it's about creating change.

gloomy canyon
#

? It's part of their names. It's the middle initial that's passed down from family member to family member. Saul's family before him had the initial. What you're thinking of lines up more with CoC.

#

It is about bloodline, it's literally passed down through family members

junior cape
#

Yes but nobody is FORCING them to have that name. Besides, bloodline doesn't determine what you call someone, the people who name them do.

#

If somebody in the Jaguar line said "Screw it, my kid is Jaguar J. Jimmy" yeah we'd look at them weird, but there's nothing stopping them

#

IF ANYTHING, it's a tradition thing, not a bloodline thing.

gloomy canyon
#

"every member of my family"
All the Monkey D.s have it. It's a thing that's passed down between family members. I don't really know what you're talking about tbh. It's just like passing down a last name.

pastel summit
#

^

junior cape
#

Yeah but family names make SENSE to pass down. Middle names are inconsequential. Some people don't even have one

pastel summit
#

it's not a middle name necessarily. It's likely a family name.

#

because it's literally hereditary.

gloomy canyon
#

Monkey D, not just Monkey. Jaguar D, not just Jaguar. Portgas D, not just Portgas. It's a thing they pass down

pastel summit
#

People don't choose to give their kids a D initial just because they feel like it, without even knowing what it means. It's pretty obviously hereditary.

gloomy canyon
#

yeah

junior cape
#

Point taken, you may be right

midnight temple
#

There have been giants and fishman with the D initial too though

#

It's more likely to have something to do with the void century

gloomy canyon
#

Which fishmen has the will of D? Saul is the only non human we know of

primal herald
#

Probably Knight of D. Sea Jinbe

gloomy latch
#

What if Usopp gets CoC and instead of knocking out people he makes them feel his fear and they think it's their own.

midnight temple
#

hhm I thought Fisher Tiger was a D, my bad

proper wing
random yacht
#

nah I think it was just this instance that she couldn't see the time

fallow knot
#

She didn't have tht magic ball at tht time

zealous grail
#

Different level of events could have harder to read times or something??? It is clairvoyance, anything can be possible

zealous grail
# junior cape Point taken, you may be right

I think you’re half right actually. I agree with the others that D. is based on bloodline and is passed down that way but I also think you have a point about how all the members of the D. Clan create this change and that’s it’s a combination of both. The D. is passed down by blood but anyone who shares said blood inherits a will to become a member of great change or something

#

Sengoku himself said those with the name D. tend to lead a checkered life.

vestal rampart
#

yall think anyone else we know is a secret will of d member?

pure raven
#

Somebody with two names. I couldn't see Usopp being called Something D. Usopp

wicked grove
vestal rampart
#

yea

azure trout
#

What if all owners of the straw hat are celestial dragons and the will of d

#

Which is why the sh is in mariejous

wicked grove
#

What’s the theory yall subscribe to?

languid rune
#

That dragon was in the marines. And this other one that dragon isn’t garps actual son

polar bison
weary cliff
#

Chopper is the closest I come to disliking a SH. He feels like he's been put into a position to appeal to the type of fan who likes buying cute plushies, and I'm just not in that demo. Even still, he has his moments

azure trout
nimble hinge
#

Did that Enma haki theory ever end up getting posted?

night jewel
#

its the 6th theory in the pins

nimble hinge
#

Quite long and thorough. But I've read through it once now, and it doesn't address any of the issues raised against when it was first loosely presented.

polar bison
#

which ones r u referring to

fading kraken
nimble hinge
#

No mention of why only Emma has shown this will of the previous user.

No mention of why Shisui doesn't exhibit any of these traits, if the assumption is that they're related to swords and users in general.

No mention of whether Oden's haki in enma is a finite amount, nor how enma consciously decides when to use CoC haki. This is even more of an issue because Kaido attributes it to CoC after that attack, despite the other panels you posted and pointed out the "strange aura" also being attacks that would have dealt damage and Kaido never attributed those to CoC.

Every panel of enma pulling out haki is listed as being "strange" throughout the theory, despite that aura or coat of haki around the sword being explained during its introduction. Twisting that into a strange power instead is a very convenient luxury.

#

Furthermore, I don't think the unreliable narrator argument works as well as you'd think in this scenario. Kaido only seemingly fears oden as he's the only one who would have killed him. So when he takes damage he instantly attributes it to something that would relate to oden. However, he quickly realizes that's not the case and states as much. I think this chapter is even more telling of that, considering advanced CoC is likely the armor behind BM and Kaidos durability. We've seen both take minor damage from things that otherwise wouldn't have hurt them when their will was disrupted. In kaidos case, his will was explicitly disrupted by the memory or PTSD of Oden. That's not the case with the Asura attack. He's already aware that odens sword is there. He's even attributed a previous attack to it. Yet this time the haki is attributed to Zoro. His only reaction to the attack is surprise that yet another of the Novas has CoC, although you paint it more as a question rather than shock.

Finally, I haven't really heard anything about Kaido knowing about swords having this property. He's been in Wano for decades, and is a Yonkou. And I doubt you'd suggest that the ability to pour haki into a weapon and make a black blade is only exclusive to swords. I can't think of a reason why Kaido couldn't do that to his mace.

polar bison
#

so like... not sure what you want from me. im not here to baselessly speculate, im here to analyze given what we actually know. I'm sure those questions will be answered, but that's Oda's job, not mine

nimble hinge
#

Yes, but you made those assumptions and only took the convenient aspects. Answering why only Emma should be a key part of the theory especially when there is another black blade involved

kind gate
#

Primal do you believe Zoro used CoC in his attack?

polar bison
#

Every panel of enma pulling out haki is listed as being "strange" throughout the theory, despite that aura or coat of haki around the sword being explained during its introduction.

and no, the panel's I highlighted with Enma were it specifically demonstrating Oda's presence/haki within it, not just it draining haki. this has only occurred against Kaidou despite Zoro using Enma quite frequently

nimble hinge
#

Oda never said that CoC was from Enma. You did that. And so, you should be the one to answer why you think it's only Enma.

polar bison
nimble hinge
kind gate
#

I think the aura enma gives off is weird/strange because its pulling haki out instead of it being imbedded normally

#

I very much doubt that Enma has its own haki source

polar bison
#

...okay I'm gonna give u one more chance before I decide that you're not worth arguing with

polar bison
nimble hinge
#

I don't care what you think is worth it or not. I pointed out the issues you chose not to address. You just attributed the asura attack to odens haki because it has an aura despite that being a property of Enma that has been explained. And then when asked to clarify why you only assume it for this one sword, you hand waved the criticism off and said Oda will explain.

polar bison
#

all of this is within the theory, and I don't like re typing things out

nimble hinge
polar bison
#

yes

#

thank you for supporting my theory. kaidou is an idiot and his statements are hardly trustworthy

nimble hinge
#

And again, he attributes it to Oden as he mistakingly already has done, despite the previous case being proven to be unrelated to oden. If anything that makes the oden haki stuff less credible than zoros coc

kind gate
#

I don't understand whats going on?

polar bison
#

me either

kind gate
#

can both of you state what your arguments are based on so things can be more clear

nimble hinge
#

He's claimed that Kaido is unreliable. And then built a theory off one of those unreliable statements to deny the other statement.

#

That's essentially what has happened.

kind gate
#

Khione it isn't sounding good right now
your defense?

polar bison
#

primal doesn't seem to have any real criticisms. all he's brought up are a few unanswered questions of the story that my theory did not address and does not need to for it to work. why enma specifically can be made a black blade rn, how it differs from an already made black blade, how much of Oden's haki it contains... these are things we fundamentally do not know because it's not the story's time to tell us. there are speculations I can make on how they'd interplay with my theory, but frankly that's a waste of time.

nimble hinge
#

All while choosing not to address the inconsistencies because there's no explanation for them yet.

sand sail
#

If there's no explanation, then there's no way to address them

#

Unless an answer to one of those inconsistencies is a key element to the story, it's not like it makes the theory bad

nimble hinge
#

There's no explanation for the CoC haki being from a sword either. But that assumption was made. It's a completely valid question to ask why this assumption doesn't apply elsewhere

polar bison
#

as for Kaidou being unreliable, that's just objective fact. whether or not you think he was unreliable here is up to you and your own bias towards him being reliable. I know where you'll end up regarding the matter, and I'm not going to try and argue with you about it

nimble hinge
#

Why is the assumption inconsistent.

polar bison
#

if I wanted to beat my head against a wall, I'd just do it irl

sand sail
#

Who said it had to apply across the board?

kind gate
#

why do you think Kaido is unreliable?

sand sail
#

Oden and Enma are clearly an extremely unique case of sword and swordsman

nimble hinge
#

I'm asking why it shouldn't. No reason given.

sand sail
#

Well, it shouldn't because Enma's unlike every other sword we've ever seen

polar bison
sand sail
#

Trying to drive that home doesn't damage the theory, but the question of why it shouldn't apply across the board doesn't work because the fact we're talking about just doesn't seem to apply in general

nimble hinge
#

It's even assumed to be a general sword property based on the panels Khione posted. They started off by making it general.

polar bison
#

i mean there's no assumption here

sand sail
#

What's the theory exactly?

polar bison
#

Kawamatsu just says that swords have souls and retain the will of their previous users

mellow silo
nimble hinge
#

Not to mention the criticism of using one unreliable to statement to deny another unreliable statement is a valid thing to point out and also unaddressed.

#

You can't claim a character as unreliable and then use them making a statement phrased as a question or shock to add reliability to your theory.

polar bison
#

??????? yes i totally can lmfao

nimble hinge
#

You can pretend that isn't valid criticism. But I don't see how it's anything but.

polar bison
#

did you really just say that I can't say Kaidou is unreliable and then say he was wrong about questioning if Zoro has CoC

nimble hinge
#

It's the same as arguing that Zoro has CoC because Kaido stated it and that is proof that he was wrong about it being odens haki because that was an unreliable statement.

polar bison
#

how does that make sense to you buddy? where's the logic in that?

nimble hinge
#

I'm saying you can't call him unreliable and then pick and choose which statements are reliable.

#

Both the oden haki and Zoro CoC statements are expressed identically. But you've made one reliable in an effort to call the other unreliable.

mellow silo
#

What did he call kaido unreliable for?

nimble hinge
#

Where's the logic in that?

mellow silo
#

Because I can say for sure kaido is a reliable source when it comes to Haki and detection of Haki.

nimble hinge
#

He called Kaido unreliable in general. Pointed out several instances. And then claimed that that is proof that the haki is oden, despite Kaido being the same person to state that. And not even definitively. But in question or shock.

grizzled fog
nimble hinge
#

In symbolic logic, the equivalent of:
A is false.
If A is true, then B is false.
Therefore B is false. That was the logic they used.

mellow silo
# grizzled fog I’d recommend reading the theory first

Well that’s impossible, because conquerors Haki is an exertion of ones will, if it was odens Haki then kaido wouldn’t have recognized it as Zoros CoC IMO (I haven’t read the full theory I can’t find it in the chat unless someone can link it but this is a statement I believe in terms of the scene I’m mentioning.)

kind gate
#

I'm not going to lie the theory isn't bad
and it somewhat makes sense
as we didn't get any indication whatsoever
but I don't know about it being Oden's CoC but more like his will or spirit
I think Enma did draw everything out of zoro for that last attack
and its very possible kaido was just checking his wounds while referencing the aura that Zoro COULD have emitted during that last slash
but the theory is on its own very plausible and I think Zoro will end up with Conquerors maybe this is foreshadowing and no sort of aura was felt here
as law and luffy seemingly fail to react to it

nimble hinge
#

A being kaidos statements are reliable.

grizzled fog
nimble hinge
#

The theory has some merit. But it just ignores everything that isn't convenient to the theory and puts forth any contradiction.

sand sail
#

I got to part 5

#

There are a lot of holes in this theory so far

mellow silo
#

Thannks

kind gate
#

I'm not saying Zoro doesn't or does have conquerors but this theory is an okay basis for him not having it or at least kaido overreacting here

#

I personally believe that Zoro has it and we may even get confirmation from Law this chapter
who knowsKingShrug

sand sail
#

All of Part 6 is actually a massive assumption

polar bison
#

i mean all of part 6 is my personal character analysis

sand sail
#

While Primal's problem with the theories weren't really that solid, a lot of it seems to be based on assuming we know anything about a lot of different processes

#

Yeh, your character analysis for why Zoro doesn't have conqueror's

polar bison
#

it's not assumption

sand sail
#

The flaw in it is we don't actually know anything about conqueror's and its requirements, we only know what it gives people

#

Oh no, that is absolutely an assumption

polar bison
#

that's not,,, how analyzing works,,,

sand sail
#

That you have a character analysis is fine, it's the point of the analysis

mellow silo
#

Well, I have a question, when zoro slashed pica was he not using black blades during that display of Haki?

sand sail
#

Yeah, you can absolutely assume things about a person's character while analyzing them. Please don't think just because you say analysis it's going to be just fine, you can most definitely still be mistaken about it LUL

polar bison
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he was

nimble hinge
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They're using black blades in the permanent sense for the theory.

sand sail
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But the point wasn't the analysis, it's that you're using it to prove why he doesn't have conqueror's, when we don't know enough about conqueror's to actually make that assumption

polar bison
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what am i assuming about either character

sand sail
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Also

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Beating and surpassing his opponent is never the point.

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This is completely wrong

mellow silo
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Well I mean you could call kaido unreliable but NOT for CoC imo

sand sail
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It's almost the entire basis of his character, in fact

polar bison
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disagree

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i would add more but my reasons for disagreeing are pretty obvious in part 6

sand sail
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You can't, that's a fact about his character. His whole personality outside of obligation to his crew is surpassing his limits, which he can only do by fighting and surpassing other opponents

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That it helps the crew is fine, but you're either lying or mistaken to insist that it's never the point

polar bison
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so the point is to surpass his limits, not his opponent

sand sail
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He surpasses his by being stronger than his opponent

polar bison
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yes. but his opponent is entirely incidental to the process? they just happen to be the unlucky strong person that was there

nimble hinge
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Which requires him to surpass his opponent. Lol

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It's not a mutually exclusive thing. Both happen in conjunction.

sand sail
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His opponents regularly give him a specific thing to achieve in his fights

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They'd be incidental if they weren't almost custom made to his progress

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He doesn't just fight a strong person and get better from it

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You also mention that he didn't have a grudge against anyone, and that's fine, but that's irrelevant. You go on about it for like two paragraphs, that Zoro does this impersonally and therefore it would have some opposite effect on his eligibility for haki, but that's also entirely irrelevant to having it that we've seen

polar bison
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god i'm actually not going to argue this because that's what part 6 was. zoro's mindset is always self-centered or luffy-centric. his opponents are not the reason he fights. he is, or luffy is.

Luffy absolutely fights opponents specifically to beat and dominate them. zoro does not

That's the point of the distinction I was drawing between the Croc and Mr 1 fights. Luffy hated Croc, Zoro didn't give a shit about Mr 1 beyond that he had steel skin that could make Zoro stronger

sand sail
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And your flaw is that you think their feelings on the matter somehow impact the situation

polar bison
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the situation of whether or not they have conqueror's haki? absolutely

sand sail
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They don't have to hate the person, it's an inarguable fact that Zoro tries his hardest to surpass himself by beating his opponents and surpassing them

vestal rampart
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whats up guys

sand sail
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Luffy does literally the same thing, except he does it more because of the personal grudge

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You also mentioned that Zoro singling out wanting to kill Orochi had something to do with it, when that was never part of the equation in any sense really

nimble hinge
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Luffy didn't hate Katakuri despite his CoC going off in that fight.

mellow silo
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Well All I’m gonna argue is that Kaido 100% knows there is CoC in that attack, and I agree if the official translation does have kaido posing a question to zoro about using it rather than just saying it, then this allows for some debate as to whether it was odens/Enmas somehow or it was Zoros CoC.

polar bison
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when did i mention orochi aside from saying zoro was going to kill him soon

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conqueror's haki is, objectively speaking, possessed by people with a certain mindset. I argued that we can tell this mindset - and specifically why Luffy has it, but Zoro does not - given what we've been told about conqueror's by the story

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the fact that Zoro does not care about his opponents and does not fight to beat them, but to beat himself, is very important for that imo

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so it's. super relevant.

sand sail
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Nothing about conqueror's has ever been related to actually beating someone else, though

mellow silo
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Also I’m gonna say I do personally believe that Zoro is the one manifesting or amplifying the effects of the attack through CoC and that he is unable to exert his will like Luffy at FMI on the soldiers for example but has indirectly learned how to do so in his Asura technique

sand sail
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So, no, it's not super relevant at all

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It's okay to draw on it for your theory, but you should know it's not actually anything concrete to use

polar bison
sand sail
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You actually go from that into a couple of other assumptions

polar bison
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the entire power

sand sail
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Yes, it is. Being so powerful that you're able to dominate those who aren't even worth stepping to

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No, it's not the entire power lol, but it used to be

polar bison
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has nothing to do with physical power

sand sail
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It does, in fact

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According to Oda

polar bison
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weak people have conqueror's too. it's about strength of will, and dominating others through that will

nimble hinge
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Chapter 594? Panel incoming

sand sail
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That strength of will translates into power too, Oda specifically states that (using FMI as an example) if someone is not worth fighting, they'd be susceptible to Luffy's

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And then goes on to specify that moderately strong people would be able to withstand it, with no reference to will

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I mean, I can appreciate the effort, but almost the entire theory happens to be assumptions based on assumptions based on other assumptions

polar bison
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it's... really not

sand sail
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Yes, it is

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If you want to deny it, I can go through and point out every assumption

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But it's absolutely based on them, because we don't actually know anythign at all about black blades or conqueror's as far as requirements or how it's built up

nimble hinge
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Only the convenient parts of the assumptions.

sand sail
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All we can do is theorize based on what we kind of can see from what we have now

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So yes, it is an objective fact that most of your theory is actually filled with assumptions. Like I said, that's perfectly fine, because we really don't know enough and you need to have those to even have a theory in the first place

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But don't act like these are well known facts that were absolutely established lol

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Not to say ALL of it is, but a good portion of it is

polar bison
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and that's entirely what this is. there are assumptions involved, necessarily so to try and theorize towards any sort of faint picture of what's happening. but the basis of the theory is entirely on the actual panels and dialogue we see and hear throughout

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a theory by nature is an assumption tho lmfao

sand sail
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No, the basis is on the assumptions you can draw from those panels

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Which is good, makes it a solid theory to a decent extent

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You're not like just word vomiting about stuff they've barely mentioned or anything

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But these are still assumptions, lmao

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For example, assuming how black blades are forged or that haki has anything to do with it

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Another example, stating Shusui has Ryuuma's essence/presence/whatever Enma has of Oden's, despite that never being an attribute to the blade

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Even though it is black

polar bison
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either slow down or get rid of my slow mode

sand sail
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I mean, I really could go through and point out the majority of assumptions if you'd like, lol

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It's better for me if you have it, I'm actually at work too, just being lazy LUL

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But also, feel free to paragraph, I don't mind wall texts that serve a purpose

polar bison
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this is so fucking exhausting to try and talk about when i can only send a msg every 15 seconds

polar bison
sand sail
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You have my thoughts there ^ I'll wait for your full response, take your time. Or we can take it to #also-manga if you'd like

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Yeah, we have 0 idea or even inkling whatsoever about how Zoro was about to finish that, lol

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So you're assuming Zoro's assumption there, because he certainly doesn't hint at anything after being about haki either

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Now, if he'd said something like "Ryuma's haki was that strong?!" or something, then that'd be a great bit of evidence

vestal rampart
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what is everyones best theory?

polar bison
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that's... just the natural conclusion to make... it's a black blade. blades are made black with haki... we continually see that Enma has a special relationship with haki... it's the natural conclusion to make. there's no assumption here, that's basic extrapolation.

if you disagree with that, fine. guess u don't want to assume a single thing. but that kind of approach is fundamentally lame imo when it comes to discussing theories, especially OP theories, because we only have so much evidence to work with concerning things that are specifically yet to be revealed by the author.

But like if you can't agree that Zoro was probably about to say armament/haki/something similar here, then our way of looking at creating theories is so fundamentally different that there's no point in arguing abt it.

Screen_Shot_2021-04-19_at_9.08.31_PM.png
vestal rampart
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ohhh its cohesive smh

sand sail
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blades are made black with haki...

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This, this is an assumption.

polar bison
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no it isn't

sand sail
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Yes, it is. We know maybe that haki has something to do with it

polar bison
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that is what happens when armament occurs. it's temporary.

sand sail
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We have nothing beyond that

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Swords don't actually turn black when you apply haki

polar bison
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they do in the manga!