manga-theories

[cerulean parrot]

What I’m sayin is his dubs are from his friends

[night jewel]

they arent

oda wouldnt really write a timeskip if luffy can power through all of his opponents through sheer friendship

[cerulean parrot]

Doffy he loses without law and co whole cake without befriending katakuri he’s done wano is the only point he came into his own and developed his strength

“He has the most powerful ability in the world, the ability to make anyone his ally”

Like bruh that’s verbatim mihawk

[night jewel]

that literally is irrelevant to the point i am making

[cerulean parrot]

It’s not though you’re saying luffy is strong on his own regard I’m saying he isn’t

[night jewel]

he literally is...

[cerulean parrot]

Where

[night jewel]

obviously he has help from his friends, but the title of pirate king isnt going to be given to luffy and friends

[cerulean parrot]

The gear 4 that weakens him for 10 mins? That katakuri fight where he gets washed the whole time

Like bruh he struggled against doffy and even harder against katakuri luffys story isn’t about sheer strength it’s about the friends you make

That’s why everywhere he went he’s made friends that’s why that’s been pushed through the whole story cause that’s the driving force

That’s why most of the reverie we saw ended up being a circle jerk of everyone luffy had impacted and all the friends he made in his journey

[night jewel]

it would literally ruin anything this raid has been going for so far, a massive theme in this raid has been the individual growth of the strawhats, friendship is a core theme but its not what OP is all about.

why would oda have kaido highlight LUFFY'S STRENGTH? why didnt he mention "friends" there????

[cerulean parrot]

Because luffy had his training arc lmao

And he’s strong enough to not get immediately creampied

[night jewel]

which was about increasing his individual strength as well, and his growth

[cerulean parrot]

Yes that’s why I said aside from wano this is the first real strength increase we’ve seen

[night jewel]

timeskip?

[cerulean parrot]

But in the grand scheme of the story it’s not really comparable to the vast amount of influence the other way

[night jewel]

literally the entire post ts

[cerulean parrot]

After fishman island they’ve been getting washed except for zoro

[night jewel]

what does this even mean

[cerulean parrot]

Post ts they’ve struggled the same as they did before

[night jewel]

did luffy not have a real strength increase after the timeskip?

[cerulean parrot]

To an extent but that got washed away immediately after fishman island/punk hazard

[night jewel]

[cerulean parrot]

Wrong reply my bad

[weary cliff]

Its literally the same as way back in Enies Lobby. When it's clear Luffy needs to get stronger to be able to protect his nakama we go through a power up

[night jewel]

luffy literally casually defeated ceasar once he found out about his abilities

[cerulean parrot]

Ceasar is a joke tho

[night jewel]

you are not making any sense, i am sorry

[cerulean parrot]

How’s he fair against cracker or kata or doffy

[night jewel]

irrelevant.

[cerulean parrot]

It’s not though

Because cracker he doesn’t win WITHOUT HIS FRIENDS

Nami secured that bag

[night jewel]

you were saying that the strawhats got washed in punk hazard, i said they didnt really

[cerulean parrot]

This message sir

[night jewel]

the increase in strength was meaningful, because without haki, luffy would actually be beaten by ceasar

[night jewel]

oh you backtracked, good stuff

[cerulean parrot]

But what I’m saying is that power increase in the grand scheme of things kept them relatively the same to where they were b4 ts

[night jewel]

you have done that atleast a hundred times now, nice

[cerulean parrot]

Well played sir I forgot about punk hazard and had to retcon in a future message

Point stands they’re still barely scraping by like they were before ts just in the new world now

[night jewel]

i am sorry, but you might need to reread this series if you genuinely think that the level of strength before and after timeskip has been "relatively" the same

[cerulean parrot]

I’m saying relative to the people they’re facing

[night jewel]

once again, backtracking

can you please stop doing that?

would be good for a discussion.

[cerulean parrot]

But you’re dodging my point

[night jewel]

you are the one doing that

I am saying that luffy and the crew got a massive increase in strength after the timeskip because they needed it to survive

in response to "wano is the only time luffy has gotten a real increase in strength"

[thick sky]

so Newgate's basically saying that the difference in strength between luffy and co vs enemies in their respective battles is similar to the difference between them and their enemies before timeskip?

[cerulean parrot]

Yes

[night jewel]

he has changed up his points too many times, but what I said was his original point

[cerulean parrot]

I’m saying the first time we saw the actual training time skip was just there it didn’t really have any impact aside from a plot device

[night jewel]

I am just done man

[cerulean parrot]

That was basically all of marineford they just fed wb and ace so that luffy could have a catalyst

[night jewel]

keep changing up your points

[cerulean parrot]

The timeskip is irrelevant tho

[thick sky]

I guess the phrasing has caused the problem. here. Did you mean it as first considerably biggest strength gap that luffy has faced???

[night jewel]

I will just go grab some dinner, go get a drink, take a walk

because this constant flipflopping from your side has exhausted me honestly

[cerulean parrot]

What I meant is like this is the first time we actually get to see luffy grow, with the timeskip it just happens and poof everyone’s stronger, we actually get to see luffy get stronger see the things that get him stronger it makes it easier to believe and get behind

[thick sky]

haha. isn't it like 10:40 there Arsal?

[night jewel]

and to address your newer statement, without the timeskip, they would literally stand absolutely no chance, it wouldnt even be a struggle, hody and the fishman pirates would defeat strawhats when they reach FMI

[cerulean parrot]

With the timeskip poof everyone is stronger now and the strength didnt really last it just tapered off after the first couple arcs of everything going down

[night jewel]

yea i was busy so getting dinner pretty late

[weary cliff]

So you acknowledge that luffy getting stronger is part of his journey and that its not 100% him making friends? Good

[cerulean parrot]

Woah woah woah let’s not make assumptions

[thick sky]

Edward your points seem all scattered, for a moment I felt like I understood what you were heading at and now nothing

[cerulean parrot]

That strength he develops still gets him washed against most

My overarching point is that his strength comes from his friends and wano is where we really see the first individual power growth for luffy himself something that makes him stand out from the pack

Most of the time his crew is right there with him helping him he doesn’t have much strength alone

https://tenor.com/view/apes-together-always-weak-dawn-gif-18022934

This will better make my point

[thick sky]

But his battles are still his own.

[weary cliff]

Okay then we agree both aspects are important to him becoming PK

[cerulean parrot]

They’re tainted most the time though like with cracker and katakuri they never give him a straight 1v1 dub against people of importance

[thick sky]

what?

how in katakuri's case?

[cerulean parrot]

So for cracker with nami wetting the biscuits or with katakuri stabbing himself

[thick sky]

katakuri stabbing himself is a diffreent thing

rather than a aimless fight, katakuri had considered it to be a manly duel (don't know how to phrase it better )

[cerulean parrot]

Yeah katakuri had a high sense of honor

[thick sky]

yeah. if flampe hadn't given luffy that numbing needle, he wouldn't have got that injury

[cerulean parrot]

And flambé threw it off but if you keep the pace of that fight without interference from either side luffy doesn’t win that fight

[thick sky]

luffy was evolving faster

[cerulean parrot]

Katakuri was dominating didn’t even respect luffy

[night jewel]

are you sure about that?

are you really?

[thick sky]

whom are you replying to Arsal?

[night jewel]

edward

[pure raven]

your first hint was them nonchalantly dropping Hero Aca spoilers like 30 minutes ago

[night jewel]

that katakuri didnt respect luffy, or he was dominating, or that luffy would lose if the fight continued without any interruptions?

[thick sky]

Katakuri was almost sure that luffy would have dodged that, he was even surprised when luffy couldn't

[night jewel]

do these panels mean nothing to you?

[cerulean parrot]

So are we not saying he’s getting washed at that point

[night jewel]

answer me.

[cerulean parrot]

Yeah kata knows he’s gotta finish it fast or else luffys gonna get a zenkai

[night jewel]

?

so that means luffy will win eventually?

you disagree with yourself then? decide quick

[cerulean parrot]

Bruh katakuri is smashing him

[pure raven]

What's a zenkai?

[cerulean parrot]

That’s undeniable if you’re saying luffy was winning that fight you’re on crack

[night jewel]

do you have any arguments?

[cerulean parrot]

There’s no argument to be made katakuri dominated that fight

[thick sky]

which chapter was this?

[night jewel]

oh so you dont.

892

[cerulean parrot]

If you can’t acknowledge that I’m talking to a brick wall

[night jewel]

did you start talking to yourself?

[solid yarrow]

You guys think blackbeard will come to wano

[cerulean parrot]

Katakuri absolutely dominated that fight through and through

[cerulean parrot]

No but Devon will swipe kaidos df and dip

[night jewel]

still no arguments

[cerulean parrot]

That’s my argument right there

[night jewel]

chop chop, its getting late, better start putting up some arguments in this place of discussion

[cerulean parrot]

Katakuri was bashing luffy in for 85% of that fight

If you can’t admit that we have no conversation

Cause you’d be trying to say luffy came in at katakuris level

[night jewel]

so you are saying that katakuri is a fucking liar and he was saying that for absolutely no reason?

is katakuri really that dumb to you?

I like katakuri, so honestly that kinda hurts

[cerulean parrot]

“Closer” implying luffy isn’t on his level

[night jewel]

you isolated that panel, good job, now read the 2nd one

[cerulean parrot]

If you’re trying to say luffy came in on katakuris level I want whatever you have in your system

[thick sky]

and also, Kata was starting to admire luffy. and he was disappointed and surprised when luffy couldn't dodge

[cerulean parrot]

Expectations and outcomes are two very different things

[night jewel]

apparently, katakuri being stabbed by some metal means that he got exponentially weaker and lost a ton of HP

[cerulean parrot]

So again you sayin luffy was at katakuris level comin into that fight?

“Could”

[night jewel]

sigh, i guess katakuri is dumb

[thick sky]

Warriors evolve in battle, as it has been with history and in anime

[night jewel]

and no, i am saying that he was reaching that level

[thick sky]

luffy was evolving that he could reach that level some point in the battle

[night jewel]

and he would eventually defeat katakuri if he continued to evolve like that

[cerulean parrot]

Ok cool so we can both admit luffy wasn’t near katakuri walking into that fight

[thick sky]

walking into the fight, no.

[pure raven]

What even are you arguing for?

[thick sky]

yeah he's changing the discussion from Wano to WCI and now to something other

[cerulean parrot]

To prove my point that luffys strength is derived from his friends

[pure raven]

Is that a genuine theory of yours?

[cerulean parrot]

I didn’t change to wci

Homie sent the panel and it spun that way and no not my theory it’s mihawks

[night jewel]

luffy only won because katakuri stabbed himself once, and that it wasnt through his individual strength, and that oden helping out luffy massively wouldnt destroy this arc

[thick sky]

seems to me like more like an headcanon with points on the go

[night jewel]

is what he is arguing

[cerulean parrot]

Mihawk said the exact shit during marineford

Katakuris nerf definitely changed that fight???

[night jewel]

he went on a massive tangent, after i said that oden being there to help out the crew would really ruin a core theme of the arc, which is the individual growth of the strawhats, basically

[thick sky]

he didn't say the exact shit. Luffy can't be Pirate King if he was at the same level as he was at marineford

[night jewel]

one of the many things that oden being alive would ruin, btw

[cerulean parrot]

Let me find that quote

[night jewel]

no need

its irrelevant in this discussion in regards to this arc

[thick sky]

chapter 561 if you are struggling

recently reread marineford a while ago

[cerulean parrot]

Ty

[halcyon terrace]

A marineford war arc movie would be amazing btw. Continue with your discussion.

[cerulean parrot]

It's not some sort of special power, but he has the ability to make allies of everyone he meets. And that is the most fearsome ability on the high seas

[pure raven]

Why do you 1. believe Oden has returned and 2. that Oden helping Luffy won't ruin the impact of his death and the obvious transition from old to the new generation in One Piece, @cerulean parrot?

[cerulean parrot]

Bruh that quote literally is the perfect illustration of the series itself

[thick sky]

the series values the strength of comradeship but doesn't show that personal strength is shit

[cerulean parrot]

Oh the oden thing would be completely shoehorned I was memeing that point but the point of luffy having to do everything alone is dumb

[thick sky]

Luffy maynot have to do everything alone, no one's suggesting that

[pure raven]

So we aren't discussing a theory?

[cerulean parrot]

It’s def not shit but it’s not the focal point or even the main point of the story

[thick sky]

don't know either. became the part of conversation much later on

[cerulean parrot]

Originally I just said how I wanted oden to be alive

Or for it to be Catarina Devon

I just don’t want it to be kanjuro drawing

[lilac mirage]

same

[solid yarrow]

I think oden got sent to the future by toki to witness his drean become a reality and then he was returned to his timeline and died peacefully

We still dont know the full extent of tokis devil fruit

[pure raven]

Kanjuro drawing seems to make the most sense story-wise. Devon theory really has nothing going for it. Oden being alive makes the least sense as it undermines a lot of previous build-up in the story.

[lilac mirage]

toki can only send in future, right?

[weary cliff]

Nothing's impossible at this point, but it doesnt make sense for Oden to go without his actual swords

[pure raven]

Only forward and not back in time.

[cerulean parrot]

Devon theory makes sense blackbeard wants powerful dfs but is smart enough to not walk into a gank

[solid yarrow]

He doesnt have them anymore

[thick sky]

that would create different timelines and timeverse, which has destoyed many good stories

[lilac mirage]

yes

[thick sky]

why would she go to scabbards? why would she treat scabbards? and how is she confident that she could fool them?

[solid yarrow]

One piece time line is straight forward, its not back to the future or avengers endgame. Theres always one time line, thats why Kinemon and momo travelling forward didnt ruin anything

[halcyon terrace]

A theory of mine would be that BlackBeard will go after Momo's fruit instead of Kaido's. Given how emphasized the fruit is right now.

[thick sky]

yeah that's what I am telling and that's why ^^^ this can't happen

[cerulean parrot]

Who else could she impersonate and get away with it blackbeard is smart and has access to knowledge of dfs it’s not too far of a reach to think it’s a whole ass scheme

[thick sky]

and how would he know abt that???

[solid yarrow]

No as in Toki temporarily sends him forward in time, but he then returns. Cos we dont know how excatly tokis fruit works

[pure raven]

We know she can send people forward in time and not back in time.

[thick sky]

does she know oden enough to try to trick the scabbards? even by finding out abt him from blackbeard, she can't do it

[lilac mirage]

kaido is strong af, BB might not be ready to take on him

[halcyon terrace]

He might have been looking for Vegapunk's version of Kaido's fruit. And might be revealed after Wano

[thick sky]

one thing, it was a top secret stuff, and the second it is said to be destroyed

[solid yarrow]

She isnt sending him back in time, only forward temporarily

[cerulean parrot]

That’s why I think it’s more likely to be an impersonator

[solid yarrow]

Like a time limit, oden can only saty in the future for a day or smthing

[halcyon terrace]

Blackbeard being a Yonko definitely knows a lot of top secret stuff. He wouldn't fair well otherwise.

[cerulean parrot]

Blackbeard wouldn’t let kaido or big moms df goto waste

[pure raven]

Forward temporarily means forward and back.

[weary cliff]

So after going forward, he would go back. Her fruit isnt supposed to go back as far as we know

[thick sky]

BB knowing about momo's df is a straight no. with what we have been shown till date

[halcyon terrace]

Yeah no indication of him knowing about it. It might be revealed once Wano is opened.

[cerulean parrot]

I think the furthest his knowledge goes is of just normal dfs I believe oda said he had access to the encyclopedia

[thick sky]

Even vegapunk doesn't know that Momo ate that fking fruit

[thick sky]

maybe some secret stuff too. but finding out that Momo has eaten that df and in Wano, that's a straight no. No one other than SH and pirate-mink-samurai guys know

even law's crew and 90% of zou doesn't know abt it

[halcyon terrace]

With the latest chapter, it seems like Momo is about to make a scene in his dragon form. CP-0 is there. There might be a BB spy there too.

[cerulean parrot]

I still think the amount of powerful devil fruits there ensures blackbeard will be there in some way

He won’t leave all that to chance

[thick sky]

you earlier mentioned that devon is here for Momo's fruit........

[halcyon terrace]

I never mentioned such a thing

[thick sky]

oh my bad then

[halcyon terrace]

I said BB might go for Momo's fruit once he realize that it's the same fruit, easier to get than fighting Kaido

[pure raven]

Shoutout to you

[zinc iris]

CP-0's panel has to be read in the sense that tells the reader that indeed momo's fruit is a replica of kaido's and so is supposed to have the same abilities

rather than anticipating the CP0 finding out about momo

[cerulean parrot]

Y’all think govt makes their presence known?

[halcyon terrace]

They know about the fruit. They don't know about momo having eaten it yet.

[halcyon terrace]

I can't say, but I hope they do.

[zinc iris]

yeah I mean the CP0 finding out momo ate it

[halcyon terrace]

I think a lot of people will find out about momo's fruit before Wano Arc ends. It will be a shock for the allies since they hate Kaido and his ability.

One of them will be BB

[zinc iris]

momo coming out as a dragon now rather will have Yamato encouraging him to use those abilities instead of being embarrassed

as it's the same as their father's power

[halcyon terrace]

I'm counting on it. Yamato has enough knowledge of the fruit's power to maybe guide momo

[zinc iris]

the idea is that

[lilac mirage]

after this convo i am seeing momo fighting kaido head on

[thick sky]

[lilac mirage]

stupid ik

[halcyon terrace]

We trolling now?

[thick sky]

gtg watch Fundo no Shinpan new episode, cya in 25 minutes

[lilac mirage]

idk, i am wierd i need a day to think about how and why

momo takes kaido head on, gets beaten badly, luffy jumps in beat kaidos ass,

once again i cant think much

sorry

[halcyon terrace]

I don't know what to say. From what Momo seems to be feeling now, it's possible he'll try to do something crazy.

[lilac mirage]

or another could be that yamato tells momo the fruits weakness, momo try's to tell that to the other's gets beaten on the way, but somehow managed to tell other, luffy already angry now knows what to do

[halcyon terrace]

Pokemon logic: Dragon is weak against Dragon. Just do a backstab attack.

[lilac mirage]

-.-

[coarse iron]

Do you think that oda will ever make the straw hats, not including luffy zoro sanji jinbei and brook ever fast and agile?

[lilac mirage]

they all are beats when needed

[halcyon terrace]

Usopp agile enough to outrun any pursuers, gain distance, and do his sniping thing.

[coarse iron]

thats running speed tho, not this type of speed

not saying they should be this fast but atleast fast enough to dodge and react to things

[zinc iris]

nah that's too much
but for example if kaido is defeated and the island starts crashing down on the city, he could resolve to use his own cloud powers to keep it afloat

[lilac mirage]

hmmmm

[halcyon terrace]

Maybe Luffy and co. will make the island small enough for Momo to lift a little and redirect

We really don't know how much mastery is needed to lift that huge island

[lilac mirage]

maybe momo just wont do anything

[halcyon terrace]

It looks like Kaido's stamina wasn't even affected. But this is a Yonko we're talking about

[lilac mirage]

damn, you guys are really smart

[halcyon terrace]

Why would you kill shanks and turn him into a trophy profile picture? You're insane.

[zinc iris]

I think the clouds are just qualitative and the DF is that good

so momo can too

[lilac mirage]

i got 'crazy' in my name, thats for a reason, i do stupid stuff

[halcyon terrace]

Makes sense too. I still talk to people that thinks Doffy was nerfed due to having to control the bird cage.

[zinc iris]

nah the birdcage was bullshit

not necessarily that it was unbreakable, but that doflamingo's pull was enough to withstand all that people pushing against it

as it was his effort to closing it

[azure maple]

One of my theories for Oden is that it is Yamato. Yamato ate the true Tanuki devil fruit (the one that Tama's teapot ate is a smile fruit) and the desire to be Oden is manifesting itself as a hallucination to the scabbards through the Tanuki illusion powers. The dialogue "I was hoping our paths would cross again. You've all aged quite a bit." would make sense since Yamato saw the scabbards at Oden's execution.

[dusky acorn]

The main problem with any "Scabbards somehow seeing Oden's visage through Yamato one way or another" theories is that Momo and Shinobu should also be accounted for, along with Yamato

But this current Oden entered in the room solitary

[dull pumice]

is that a serious theory even lul

[weary cliff]

Also it simply doesnt match up logistically. Yamato/Momo are in a different part of the castle. We see them in the same chapter even

[pure raven]

||Koby is Robert Maynard he will defeat blackbeard|| you heard it from me first

[dull pumice]

Bro serious theories only

[azure maple]

The first thing Yamato says in that chapter is that there are crawl spaces above every floor. I thought that might give them some faster travel especially with momo going dragon

Honestly the main reason I want this to be true is bc it's the only one I've seen that would live up to Oda writing for me, narratively

Kanjuro drawing is the most probable

[weary cliff]

Onimaru/Kanjuro are the logical forerunners. No sense worrying so much, we will see if Oda can deliver or not. I trust he's given this more thought than we have with all of our squabbling. And if not, we can call him a hack next week

[azure maple]

Yeah I have no stakes in being right, just wanted to throw it out there since I hadn't heard that one.

One other thing I came across while looking at Japanese lore is that there's a story about an eel supporting Japan upon its back. Yamato mistaking Momo for an eel I think adds some support for the theory that he will use his dragon clouds to prevent onigashima from falling.

[weary cliff]

Oh yeah I'm certain that's going to be Momo's role. Which is great because it was just starting to get old with the whole bit of everyone just trying to protect him while he didn't really do anything.

Momo's fruit isn't so defective and can either make use of Kaido's clouds or make its own, thus stopping the flower capital from being destroyed. All the while he gets to impress the citizens with his bravery and will be welcomed as shogun that much more

[plush pike]

If anyone is still unsure about how my theory about temporary time travel would work (not saying it is true), I drew a simple graph in paint to show how it would work.

I still am not totally convinced this IS the correct answer, but anything else would either be sorely disappointing, or not possible. I could technically see it being Kanjuro, but again, why in the world would he do that? And that still doesn't explain the shadow that cried over them.

Anyway, I hope this clears my theory up at least.

[zinc iris]

time yo yo here we go

[plush pike]

But knowing Oda, we'll probably cut away next chapter and speculate about this for maybe one or two months before we see Oden on the rooftop with Kaido.

I think people assume we're going to immediately get a clear answer next chapter, but I'm not sure about that at all.

[pure raven]

imagine that Kuina is crying under the towel. "Humans are really fragile beings..."

[ancient vault]

Shes holding her laugh in cause zoro is to fcking stupid

[ancient vault]

thatsstill travelling into the past tho

If you go back you have the knowledge of the future so the actual future you first saw changes again and wont happen its still kind of the same thing. You get to change the future because you've seen and lived in the future snd then travel back

[lunar shell]

I believethe exact same thing. The only way this isnt a cheap mess with no logic is if its the real toki and oden and they just went to the futur for 5 mn and came back

[lunar shell]

In theory, but its one piece

Also, maybe toki going to the futur is actually the default time line

[plush pike]

Time travel works in any number of ways. We have a character in the series that can travel at the speed of light, but doesn't automatically time travel when doing so. I don't think we have to worry about One Piece being a universe with real life logic in any way, shape or form.

[lunar shell]

Do you think kid will be the one defeating BM ?

[plush pike]

No, I think BM's arc will end in Elbaf.

[pure raven]

I would really like for this to be the case.

[plush pike]

Her defeat will be being cured of her hunger pangs and reconcile with the giants of Elbaf.

[lunar shell]

Ok

[pure raven]

I can see Luffy wanting to spare Teach but Koby comes in at the end of their fight and takes Blackbeard's life.

[plush pike]

Anyway, cooking time, brb

[lunar shell]

Lastly, do you think orochi is dead ?

[plush pike]

Nope, body is gone, he has more heads.

[lunar shell]

Alright, I'd like to talk about BM when you're up for it

[plush pike]

Back 🙂 @lunar shell

[lunar shell]

Its going to be a party after this arc

[plush pike]

Probably, hopefully.

[lunar shell]

so they wont be running from BM again. So how do you think BM si going to Elbaf

[plush pike]

Depends, maybe Big Mom is knocked off the island or something. Any number of things can happen.

[lunar shell]

Sure, but those things doesnt make real sense do they

[plush pike]

Why not? Big Mom has already been rolled out of the battlefield by Jimbei and Robin.

[lunar shell]

That would be an argument for it not happening again, you are saying BM is going to be knocked off of to her ship, and that said ship will go to Elbaf for x reason

[plush pike]

Not to her ship, I never said that.

[lunar shell]

true, but I assumed

[plush pike]

She will of course follow Luffy to Elbaf after maybe being disabled or something.

The raid is about defeating Kaido after all, not Big Mom. They'll see it as a victory as long as Big Mom is temporarily out of the picture.

[lunar shell]

ok but, in that case, they will go to elbaf after luffy, so the alliance have a party while BM is knocked off in a corner ?

[plush pike]

What could also happen, is the Straw Hats need to draw Big Mom away from Wano, and so won't be part of the celebration, but it will still happen.

[lunar shell]

y but the party is a locked event

[plush pike]

From what SBS?

[lunar shell]

Luffy said it

[plush pike]

Luffy also said he was going to save Ace. And defeat Jack.

Luffy says a lot of things.

[lunar shell]

yeah i know that, and I didnt believed him this time, but if he talk about a party I have to assume its a locked foreshadowed event placed by Oda, beside, even without him saying it, its too much a valuable thing to do for the story

[plush pike]

"Lets meet again and have a huge party after we draw Big Mom away from Wano". Something like that.

[lunar shell]

Also, do you think we have time for a third arc with BM ? Oda said One piece had 5 year left, even if he is wrong, its 7 max

[plush pike]

He said that Luffy's main part of the story will be done in 5 years. 7 years total is actually enough for at least two arcs. If not three.

[lunar shell]

Sorry I'm being boring, but now that I found someone with some logic, I confront him with my Kid will beat BM thing, since for me, its obv.

[plush pike]

How come?

[lunar shell]

true

but weed need the arc with Teach and the big war, that's your 2 arcs, but sure, a little Elbaf arc with BM make sense, especially with the official map we have been given, and the constant Elbaf talk

[plush pike]

Nono, Elbaf arc with Big Mom, Shanks vs Blackbeard, last poneglyph. One arc.

[lunar shell]

Still, I'm not sold on " how the story can get from where we are now, and BM be on elbaf "

[plush pike]

Like I said, Big Mom will follow Luffy as he makes a break for it.

[lunar shell]

ok, what if Kid actually manage to defeat her, is this something that can be a possibility too ?

[plush pike]

I don't see how he could, or why it would make sense other than to make him an equal to Luffy?

[lunar shell]

Its cool if someone else than Luffy actually do something in this manga I think

[plush pike]

Of course, I think that someone, apart from Luffy, when it comes to defeating other yonko, is Blackbeard.

[lunar shell]

I don't see how either, maybe he will awaken his fruit, but in lot of fight we dont know how the hero will beat the evil

[plush pike]

I want Kid to be awesome too, don't get me wrong, but I don't see how Kid can beat Big Mom on his own, when he was defeated by Shanks.

Of course he can grow in strength, but I don't see a reason to believe he's going to grow that fast at the moment.

[lunar shell]

We have been sold on this 5v2 fight on chapter 1000. I believe Oden word, and that they will win, beating both BM et Kaido

the way I see it Kid will be helped by Killer and maybe Law

[plush pike]

That makes more sense at least.

[lunar shell]

Beside, Kid can't really arm Kaido. Yes when I say Kid will beat BM I actually mean he will be the one given her the final blow

[plush pike]

However, I just don't see Oda making Big Mom die here in an arc that has little to no significance for her character other than being a wild card that could switch allegiances at any moment.

She had WCI, and in that story we saw her personal backstory with the giants. Unless they somehow come to Wano too and interact with her, that's just a huge waste of character potential.

[lunar shell]

it make the arc epic, and upgrade Kid, who will be legit seen as Yonko when the manga end, reader will know how he manage to get there

I sound like I like kid a lot and I want this to happen just its what I prefer, its not, I actually think its the most logical approach here

[plush pike]

Remember, Big Mom has NEVER been even hurt in combat, and she has fought Roger and Garp in the past.

[lunar shell]

juste like the fact that Orochi have 8 head, and happen to be killed by having a head cut off

[plush pike]

There has to be a major, major reason for Kid to have become that strong.

[lunar shell]

Kid is the rival of Luffy, its a reason enought

[plush pike]

I think if Law, Kidd and Luffy all get credit for killing Kaido, I think that's enough to make them forces to be reckoned with in the New World.

[lunar shell]

he is vegeta when Luffy is Goku ( Law would be picolo but I'm going too far here xD )

[plush pike]

I haven't seen DBZ

I don't see how Oda will choose to elevate Kidd over finishing Big Mom's storyline in a satisfying way.

[lunar shell]

well I just mean : Kid and Luffy are equal ( we both know Luffy is stronger, but from a story point of view, those 2 want the same thing, Kid have the royal haki thing, he can destroy the same rock as luffy when he train etc..)

alright alright, maybe I am delusional since I'm the only one that think that. I guess we'll see

[plush pike]

Also, didn't Luffy say he was going to come back to WCI and challenge Big Mom again?

[lunar shell]

he told that to katakuri

[plush pike]

Yes exactly. Seems important.

[lunar shell]

also he told Law he would beat them all. Its important, but since he WONT come back to WCI, its untrue

[plush pike]

That's bold of you to assume.

[lunar shell]

not at all, its not interesting to have a WCI 2.0, and clearly we dont have the time for it

beside you told yourself that BM will be defeated at Elbaf

[plush pike]

Depends what happens with Big Mom.

Yes, I did. But not defeated in the conventional way. More like changed. Into Charlotte Linlin.

[lunar shell]

So BM WCI, BM WANO, BM Elbaf, and BM WCI 2.0...come on^^

[plush pike]

Never said WCI 2.0

This could also be final war stuff and happen in any of Big Mom's territories.

[lunar shell]

I thought we were talking about me being bold to assume there weren't going to be a WCI 2.0

oh

[plush pike]

No, bold of you to assume he won't come back to WCI at all.

[lunar shell]

sry its my bad, I dont mean Wano, I mean BM territory

[plush pike]

I just see no narrative sense to kill off Big Mom in Wano, that's all.

[lunar shell]

I thought Whole Cake = WCI , but I'm wrong I guess

[plush pike]

At least unless the giants come to Wano and resolve their issue with her.

No you're right, I don't know if he'll defeat Big Mom in WCI or somewhere else, even Elbaf, but I don't see sense in assuming, or even thinking it makes sense for her to fall in Wano without resolving anything with Mother Carmel and the giants.

[lunar shell]

I see

understable..

[plush pike]

It could be the case that Big Mom goes back to WCI and gets Katakuri before heading to Elbaf after finding out the Straw hats are there.

What I really want, is a huge sea battle between yonko crews. Sea battles are sorely lacking in this series.

[lunar shell]

no I dont see one piece having the time for those remake battle of BM and Katakuri...

I strongly think she fall this arc..I agree that Oda put in place a plot with the giant but still

[plush pike]

Wow you're really in a rush huh? xD An entire battle could be as little as 15 chapters and still be amazing.

Well I think it makes no narrative sense for her to fall this arc, just because you're in a rush to finish a story that most likely has hundreds of chapters remaining.

[lunar shell]

what can I say, my head is screaming at me a lot of things that suggest it. like the picture of chapter 1000, its not hot, if not true.

[plush pike]

Wait what picture?

[lunar shell]

I'm not in a rush but 5 Year is short

can't post picture but its 1000, when Oden say the futur gen will beat the old

[plush pike]

There's like 200+ chapters left to tell the story, we're gonna be fine.

You should get a role so you can post pics.

Yeah, beat the old generation, that doesn't have to happen in one place at one time.

[lunar shell]

alright

[plush pike]

The way Oda is pacing right now, I think there's literally nothing to worry about when it comes to telling all the story we need to.

[lunar shell]

it writed just under this 2v5 pannel

maybe I'm naive but for me it strongly suggest that its going to be 5v2 all along, and that both Kaido and BM fall

[kind gate]

tbh dude this doesn't explain how it would work because alternate timelines would come into play

[plush pike]

That's just you assuming timelines in One Piece works like your headcanon.

A character that travels at the speed of light would automatically jump into the future in real life.

Yet Kizaru doesn't.

[kind gate]

I doubt Oda makes his story that technical

[junior cape]

I think that Blackbeard can transfer df powers by killing/incapacitating the user, sucking out their true self, and then liberating it in someone else.

[lunar shell]

just testing

[plush pike]

Exactly. Which is why this can still make sense since it's not technically past timetravel from the reference point of the ability being used.

[plush pike]

I do believe it has something to do with lineage factor and Vegapunk. I believe Blackbeard is in fact an experiment by Vegapunk in order to create a human capable of having more than one set of lineage factor.

[kind gate]

Nah I mean I doubt Oda would give the fans the headache of that
Timelines are a thing that has to exist for timetravel to even make sense
If Oden went to the furture he would not be around for the 20 years

[lunar shell]

and let's not even talk about katakuri / Luffy that seen the futur, cuz you wont be able too^^ it seems to be like that movie " Next " , they know all possible futur, but if they are too slow then they can't avoid => Yes but katakuri was surprised when Sanji avoid bullet => you will explain that and that will destroy your previous explanation. Its a manga, w/e

[plush pike]

If you ignore my theory and just assume it's the normal ability of Toki, sure. But I agree that it's a stretch, but IMO, less of a stretch than the Onimaru theory.

[kind gate]

So if he decided to go back he can't just reset everything in the timeline so he would jump back to an alternate past, if this makes sense to u

[plush pike]

I don't believe you need alternate timelines as long as Toki is careful with her fruit.

[kind gate]

no because kata sees the future without his actions being in play so its like getting a tip

[lunar shell]

all theory have problem in it, the only one that at least have a good meaning, is the one including Toki time travel

@kind gate same thing, since he will see what the opponent do after what he have done

[kind gate]

sigh, you can't be careful since it won't be explained. Going into the future would mean that time continued to move. This means that if you tried to go back you can't just fit yourself into the timeline

[plush pike]

Well how can you fit in the future if you can't fit in the present?

[lunar shell]

yes, you dont need an alternate timeline, its like I said, it may be the default time line all along, maybe the fact that she goes into the futur is the real flow of time that pursue his course

Either you take it like Doctor who, or like in Marvel SHIELD, it all come down to what the rule are in the one piece universe

[plush pike]

Or any number of other ways time travel could work.

[kind gate]

what?
Future sight is the future that happens when things remain the same, changing the variables allows you to affect the future since it hasn't occured
Okay, I'll try again. If you went 20 mins into the future now for us you would be gone for 20 mins correct?

[lunar shell]

IRL we dont even know if the time is like a book and we are just moving from page to page, or if the page are created with time

[plush pike]

From your perspective, sure.

[kind gate]

exactly
so if you came back it won't be possible since you were already gone for us, right?

[plush pike]

Well, if we are in a four dimensional universe, it's like a three dimensional book and we exist on all the pages simultaneously, but can only see one of them.

[mystic crown]

@kind gate as long as you don't come back

[lunar shell]

@kind gate I understand that^^ but then his power would be weak, he will see the futur 1, and for the 5s he see the futur, he is lock with those intel ? no, his power refresh all the time, and he absord intel faster than the time actually pass, else he wont be able to dodge the multiples attack Luffy throwe at him without stop

[plush pike]

Unless you come back the moment you left because that's how the ability works.

[kind gate]

exactly but from what we saw oden was there to die meaning temporal time travel doesn't work

[mystic crown]

I'm fine with time travel to the future but travel to the past is the worst narrative desicion

[plush pike]

You get sent into the future at 2 o'clock, come back at 2 o'clock, was in the future for 20 minutes.

From everyone's perspective but your own, you were never gone.

[pure raven]

In one piece time travel to the past isnt possible, wasnt that already stated when momonosuke was thrown into the future?

[mystic crown]

@plush pike No but you have to come back at the exact same time. To the nanosecond. It has to be an inbuilt mechanic of time travel to put you back exactly where you came

[lunar shell]

The only problem is the fact that Toki said she couldnt go back to the past, maybe she awaken his fruit and she can send herself or other 5 mn in the futur, and they come back like a yoyo, I dont know

[plush pike]

That's why it's an ability that can do exactly that.

[kind gate]

that's not how it works
time that has been written cannot be changed in the same timeline meaning even if he went at 2 o'clock and came back at 2 o'clock , Toki can't freeze time to bring him back.
NO TOKI CANNOT FREEZE TIME

[plush pike]

Relax bro no need to caps your sentence.

[lunar shell]

Yes, Toki can travel in time but that's it, each time she sent someone in the futur, this dude would remain in the same position he was

[kind gate]

It's just to emphasize

[plush pike]

Sure I get it. You are very sure that time travel works in the way your headcanon does, but it could work any number of ways.

[mystic crown]

@plush pike YEAH but toki gaining some random ass ability from awakening. Is unsatisfyibg

[plush pike]

You could be right, you could be wrong, we just don't know the full scope until Oda reveals what the full scope of Toki's devil fruit is. Awakening was not my suggestion.

[kind gate]

In my headcanon? lol, go read some research papers or watch an educational video

[lunar shell]

so Toki would have to go to the futur and then go to Onigashima...Oden would then have to do the same...That would mean she sent herself and him 1 week before our present time, they go there and wait, but then, its 7day and 5 min we are talking about....

[plush pike]

About real life time travel?

Time travel in different series work different, that's a fact.

[kind gate]

I know its a manga but having Toki perform feats in the OP world that are too unrealistic ruins the point of Wano and lessens the impact of the story as a whole if its just going to be asspulls

[lunar shell]

its the only way to save this cheap cliffhanger dude

[plush pike]

Unrealistic? <-- You want to talk about unrealistic powerscaling for instance?

[lunar shell]

or maybe Oda has something in mind that none of us has, I'll would be fine with that, but so far, all solution sucks

[mystic crown]

@plush pike Forlain is right. That's how time travel works. Going to the past creates new timelines. A bad narrative desicion because it makes everything seem inconsequential and subject to change. Going to the future keeps you on the same timeline and you can stay on that timeline if you go to the Sam point you left off from

[kind gate]

open the pins

[plush pike]

Not necessarily. We don't even know how time travel works in real life bro.

If we're talking about what's realistic in One Piece, then Kizaru should be a million times stronger than Whitebeard automatically.

[kind gate]

Look I'm not ruling out this being the real Oden 'appearing' before them, but a random new ability that allows toki to freeze time and bring people back to the past makes no sense

[plush pike]

Destroy the world? How about absorb the solar system?

[mystic crown]

@plush pike No but the quantum physists have published studies on it, some of the smartest people in the world. It's like questioning the knowledge we know on black holes. No one has been within a light year of a black hole but we know a ton about them

[kind gate]

yh he would be but his powers aren't written that way neither is tokis
Also go read up Quantam physics

[lunar shell]

Kizaru is as fast a light, but he can't think that fast, so he is limited by his own human limitation

[plush pike]

Ah yes, because black holes definitely can suck in devil fruit abilities, that's how it works right?

Lets not get into real life quantum physics.

[kind gate]

I doubt he is since even pacifista beams that are designed around his fruit aren't light speed

[mystic crown]

@plush pike Well we don't know the properties of devil fruits because they don't exsist. Oda took some creative liberty there

[kind gate]

you mistake fiction for terrible writing

[plush pike]

And we don't know how devil fruit abilities like the Toki Toki no Mi works either.

[plush pike]

I don't care if you think it's terrible writing, that's just an opinion 😛

[lunar shell]

@kind gate y, ik, ik, some forget we are talking about a manga, and that there are rule we have to accept, that not everything will be exact science is one of them

[mystic crown]

@plush pike We do she explained. She can only send people to the future or else she would have sent Oden to the past to beat up Kaido before he came to Wano

[plush pike]

Did you see my earlier graph Elusive?

[mystic crown]

@plush pike No

[plush pike]

Ah that explains it. Let me see if I can find it

[kind gate]

Not really my opinion since I used to think this way, but upon further thinking allowing a dead character to speak to his retainers through suddenly unlocked powers from another dead character makes no sense

[kind gate]

if thats the case why not send Oden to slice kaido for 20 mins then go back?

[lunar shell]

Oden is actually dead dude

[kind gate]

I-

[lunar shell]

Oden went to the futur after his fight against Kaido, and come back to die after. I mean, in theory

[plush pike]

Don't know.

[kind gate]

with no injuries????????

[lunar shell]

the head injuries u mean ?

[mystic crown]

@plush pike Ok sorry I forgot about what your argument was. This idea is plausible as to why it was never revealed because Toki always went toward in time to escape something so why would she want to go back so I will give it some credence

[lunar shell]

those head injuries he show while being captive in the prison are kinda gone when he go to his death

[plush pike]

If the ability's limit is to either send you permanently into the future, or back to the exact moment you left, then it makes sense for her to want to jump into the future to escape the bandits.

But hey, I'm not saying this is a strong argument. I'm saying this is the best I got because this plot twist is insane.

[lunar shell]

true

[mystic crown]

@plush pike Yeah exactly. But personally I hope Oda has some way to explain it that no one has thought of. None of the theories seem particularly satisfying and just feel awkward to explain

[lunar shell]

clearly that would be the best thing...but Its hard to conceive

[plush pike]

My personal favorite may be that Oden is a ghost in fact, because Big Mom did destroy the sacred tree that Sasaki was tied to, no?

And the fire festival is about celebrating the dead.

[lunar shell]

what do you think of my personal theory : Hiyori is patching them, and while they are being unconscious, they talk with the soul of Oden that is kept in the white sword, just like Enma. plz dont insult me 🙃

[plush pike]

"It's all a dream" is kind of cheap IMO, idk.

[last halo]

Both are cheap

[lunar shell]

I know but cheap for cheap...

[plush pike]

A real ghost would be less cheap IMO.

[last halo]

We still got one more week of this

[lunar shell]

you wish...

[plush pike]

Do you really think Oda will reveal it next week?

We'll probably cut away for 10 chapters before "Oden" turns up on the rooftop

[last halo]

At least it won't be the main talking point

[lunar shell]

I actually think he will, but its not 100% at all... But Oda has a soul right ? he will tell us

[plush pike]

Perhaps

[lunar shell]

Its time for Hawkin and Orochi to show up as well

[last halo]

Hawkins, Orochi, Kanjuro, Fukurokuju...

[plush pike]

Kanjuro being dead is fine by me. But if Orochi is not dead, chances are Kanjuro isn't either, seeing as they died panel for panel at the same time.

[lunar shell]

y, the dude is dead alright

[last halo]

Don't think he really is

[lunar shell]

as for Fukurokuju, maybe he will revive Orochi, if this one need a push to come back to life, since Fuku is the name of a divin that can ressurect people, and Fuku went somewhere when Orochi died

[plush pike]

That's interesting for sure.

[lunar shell]

I strongly think Kanjuro is dead, he is of no importance now

and that would be yet a other fake news if Kanjuro is alive

[plush pike]

I mean, if he is alive, I'd like to think Oda wants to make him have a change of heart and try to help the scabbards, maybe that's what's required for the scabbards to finally defeat Kaido.

[lunar shell]

no....nothing happen bewteen the moment he try to kill momo and now, why the change of heart, its bad

[last halo]

Disagree, the Kurozumi persecution thing still needs to be resolved and he's the only redeemable one

[plush pike]

Having one of the scabbards die before the raid, even if he was a traitor, kind of makes their failure on the rooftop makes sense.

[lunar shell]

its doesnt

its good to have some bad thing unresolved, some fatalism

[plush pike]

Who did you respond to ?

[lunar shell]

kunta

[last halo]

You do that with a character like Orochi, who has acted only on greed in the story

[lunar shell]

y but Orochi has more plot in him, Hiyori promised to kill him, he have a fruit not really seen, Yamato need a opponent.

[last halo]

Kanjuro never acted selfishly, his origin is his parents being killed for being Kurozumi and his motivation to follow Orochi came from his desire to die

[lunar shell]

if I read you correctly, I understand he is selfish ^^

[hidden tinsel]

sup, Hit me with yalls fav theories

[lunar shell]

Kid will beat BM

[hidden tinsel]

i can see that

[lunar shell]

you asked for it^^

[last halo]

What?

[lunar shell]

you would be the first xD

[plush pike]

Temporary time travel could explain how the real Oden is standing in front of the scabbards, without necessarily breaking the rules of the fruit.

[lunar shell]

@last halo you say Kanjuro want to die, that why he is doing all this, its kinda selfish, am I wrong ?

[hidden tinsel]

same as toki using time travel wonder if theres a past time traveler

[lunar shell]

ohh its without traveling to the past, oh I failed to understand then

so what, toki send Oden 20 year into the futur, ok, but why is the arrow coming back

[pure raven]

Why can you just not accept that the fruit cannot send people back in time which is a necessary part of 'temporarily' sending somebody to the future? Temporary means that it is undone at the end of the expiration time. So you send them forward and back.

[plush pike]

You don't understand the graph?

[pure raven]

[last halo]

No. What I meant is that when Orochi recruited him, the only thing he sought was death, which is why he accepted to be under Orochi. His actions were never moved by selfishness, different from Orochi. I definitely think he, as a character, deserves some sort of redemption. Even if ends up dying.

[plush pike]

That's not an argument my friend.

[pure raven]

Are you deliberately trolling?

[lunar shell]

me I dont understand, plz can you explain to me what the arrow pointing toward the past mean

[plush pike]

No.

[pure raven]

To send somebody to the future temporarily. You must send them forward and send them back to the current time.

She cannot send people back.
So she can't send people temporarily into the future.
Is that clear?

[last halo]

The purple arrow would be Oden's journey through time.

[lunar shell]

oh so its send someone to the future temporarily, I did understood right the first time -_-'

yeah ok, nvm

oh right, it would be the present when she use the power, not the past, nice thinking

[plush pike]

No it's not clear because from the reference point of the devil fruit, it's just temporarily sending someone into the future. Bringing them back is a natural response to the expiry of the ability.

[pure raven]

[last halo]

Anything like that would be an asspull at this point

[plush pike]

The graph makes it clear that you cannot travel to the past in reference to the ability user.

[lunar shell]

Freshair has the best theory for me

[pure raven]

#manga-theories has genuinely fallen

[plush pike]

Fine, just don't be toxic please.

[last halo]

How about Tama being Orochi's daughter? That's a good theory right

[plush pike]

Why would she be?

[lunar shell]

https://tenor.com/view/penguin-yoyo-gif-7920913

[grizzled fog]

Dunno bout daughter, but tama being a kurozumi is a good theory

[lunar shell]

yoyo = Oden

[last halo]

To end the Kurozumi persecution

[plush pike]

I don't see why not, and it's a compelling thought, but I don't see a reason to believe it's true.

[lunar shell]

Toki would have need to send herself first so she heal the scarabs

[grizzled fog]

Would help to repair the reputation of the kurozumi after Onigashima, if one of them was eve driving force behind the expulsion of Kaido’s forces

[lunar shell]

hey, leave tama out of this mess xD

[plush pike]

I think the restoration of the kurozumi through an unlikable character asking for forgiveness, like Orochi, would be more powerful IMO, but I can see your point.

Momo forgiving Orochi would actually be a pretty impressive story thread.

[lunar shell]

I dont see this happening

[plush pike]

Perhaps not.

But then again, we all forgot about that time Bon Clay ordered the massacre of everyone in Nanohana too right? And Crocodile even got sort of a redemption arc.

[lunar shell]

not the same

[plush pike]

How come?

[grizzled fog]

Bon clay was forgiven, not forgotten, crocodile not so much

Crocodile just allied with them, he was still a jerk

[plush pike]

I don't think half of the OP fanbase even remembers Bon Clay orderering the massacre of an entire town with children in it.

[lunar shell]

Manga => Autor create evil fellow for the sake of the plot => Autor want to change the evil fellow into a neutral or good fellow for the plot or cuz he like him

[plush pike]

True, I don't disagree with that direction to be fair. I like Bon Clay as a character too.

[lunar shell]

Orochi being neutral or good can't work here ( jeez I have to wait bewteen post to post )

[plush pike]

Really? Why not?

[last halo]

I always thought about being his daughter, mainly to "complete" the triangle. The three main characters in Wano are Oden, Kaido and Orochi. The three of them having children that are nothing like their fathers would be interesting. Momo is victim to Oden's greatness, Yamato is victim to Kaido's chaos (?), and Tama is victim to Orochi's greediness. Momo was the reason for Oden's downfall, Yamato and Tama could be the reason to Kaido and Orochi's. And finally, the three of them have deposited their hopes in Luffy.

[lunar shell]

cuz Orochi is simply too evil, for too long, its not like he has done something evil in a corner

[grizzled fog]

Hadn’t thought of it like that kunta, that’s a good idea

[plush pike]

If he got betrayed by Kaido, maybe he realized that he was never going to remain Shogun, and so, realizing that he has no other option, he sides with the good guys who didn't lop his head off and serves them in an attempt to clear the Korozumi name at least.

[lunar shell]

no no no

the core of Orochi is evil, that much is clear, not like Bon Clay, or the pragmatism of Crocodile

[plush pike]

He doesn't have to become a hero, but like, an apologetic pathetic character that at least gets to live.

You're saying Crocodile was not evil???

[lunar shell]

@last halo You leave tama out of this dude !! xD

[plush pike]

He wanted to shoot a giant bomb into a million people and kill them all, then lie to the population in order to become its king.

[lunar shell]

@plush pike oh he is evil, but now he more like a neutral-evil

beside, Croco was needed for the plot, Orochi isnt needed in futur arc for any plot, so no reason to make him a neutral

[plush pike]

And I'm saying Orochi could also become like a self-serving, but ultimately not evil character. Like a pathetic chump that due to his "change of heart", at least gets to live.

[plush pike]

The restoration of the Korozumi would be that plot point no?

[lunar shell]

who cares about them ultimately

if he wanted their restoration, he had to do good thing.

[plush pike]

Well a lot of people hate them, and there are surely more of them left.

Well maybe he will do a good thing in the end.

[lunar shell]

Instead he destroyed the country, countless live, everyone starving and laughting of sad tears, and then you want to forgive him ?

[plush pike]

As he is now? Obviously not. That would be like asking me to forgive Crocodile while Vivi was screaming her heart out in the clock tower.

[lunar shell]

In any case, his combat will be him losing his head one by one with Hiyori finally, true to her word, will get the last one

[plush pike]

Maybe, but I don't see Oda making the good guys execute anyone in that way. Luffy at least never kills his opponents.

[lunar shell]

the difference between Orochi and Croco, is that Croco was needed for the plot, like I said

[plush pike]

In Marineford you mean?

[lunar shell]

beside, Croco is evil, but he is kinda cool, and he is something more than just being evil

Orochi, his whole purpose is being evil, u take that away, u have nothing left of the char

[plush pike]

I don't know about that. In Orochi's backstory he seems like a scared boy that hates being persecuted for his family name, and then gets seduced into thinking he's supposed to be the shogun.

[lunar shell]

he lost

[plush pike]

So did Crocodile.

Utterly defeated, then somewhat changed after getting a reality check from Luffy.

[pure raven]

Whats this reaction for?

I made this

[pure raven]

Now I don't have to type it out every single time.

[lunar shell]

its hard to have a strong argument against your statement Freshair

[lunar shell]

I'll just say that croco role wasnt just to be evil, unlike Orochi

[dark palm]

I think he's just surprised that zoro was trying to attack at the same time

[plush pike]

Making part of it a different color doesn't mean a separate instance of the devil fruit ability was used to send them back.

[lunar shell]

?? I dont get it lilahk

[pure raven]

You wouldn't

[lunar shell]

for me the only problem is the space, not the time, how would toki and Oden, pop here

[plush pike]

My theory completely hinges on the ability actually being initialized and finishing in the red line (of the graph), and everything that happens after is just the effect of that.

[lunar shell]

humm but red line is too far from wano dude #moron

[plush pike]

If it's 20 years later, they could be in the same position from where they left.

[pure raven]

I genuinely cannot explain it to you any better. I even included a visual aid. I'm going to retire here.

[pure raven]

Hmmm

[plush pike]

Explaining it and convincing me are two different things. You think you're right and I can't be, so I don't know what to tell you.

[obtuse gazelle]

I just realized it’s a bald Shanks

[lunar shell]

@plush pike true, but when would they go to onigashima, and aslo, but less interesting, how would they know shit were going to happen in 20y in onigashima

[plush pike]

Maybe Oden learned something on Laugh Tale. That's how he could pinpoint when they needed to travel to.

[lunar shell]

I guess Toki just check everything in the futur until the point she see thing were going down and this moment and place, but its kinda fishy

[plush pike]

Oden was the first person to mention the 20 years thing, not Toki.

[lunar shell]

oh, true, beside his journal is writen from his laugh tale travel, so it make sense

[plush pike]

But yeah, the borders of Wano were locked to protect them from a great danger (maybe the WG), and the only way to open them up again is to defeat them.

Maybe that couldn't be done until the new generation of pirates came along.

[lunar shell]

well, they needed shiraoshi, that is just ready for action now

[plush pike]

That too (brb)(

Anyway, I'mma go do something useful with my life. Have a nice one.

[pure raven]

Help me

Which chapter is that from?

[sick valve]

Why is it that the logic of Oden actually being present relies on Toki breaking the limits of her fruit which she acknowledged

[kind gate]

fr lmao

[sick valve]

and also why do all these theories rely on the mental gymnastics of Oden actually being alive

[pure raven]

It doesn't rely on that at all. It relies on a man being executed on screen ~20 years prior and still being alive.

[kind gate]

ong

[sick valve]

I'm being nice and trying to ignore that part for their sake

because every time I hear anything relating to Oden being alive I die a little inside

[kind gate]

if oden is sent to the future the future would be his present

[pure raven]

People have offered other theories like Onimaru which don't rely on Oden being alive at all. Theories like that are sensible but the majority voice their "oden still alive" "temporary time travel" shitposts

[sick valve]

It has to be either Onimaru or Kanjuro tbh

[pure raven]

If it's revealed that Toki's fruit can send people to the past, then it's a different ball game. But it has been categorically stated that she cannot send people back.

[sick valve]

because the other people capable of imitating Oden are not on Wano

[plush pike]

Shitposts? Consider yourself blocked pal. I don't need this toxicity.

[pure raven]

Thank you

[sick valve]

lol might as well block me too because you and I are not reading the same manga

[plush pike]

I saw you misunderstood my argument so I'm leaving you unblocked for now.

[kind gate]

Having people throw up temporary time travel every 5 minutes is sad
People love to argue and have way too much pride to admit their wrong and learn
I for one have lost severally to Laww, you don't see me reposting shit that's clearly been proven not feasible

Getting things wrong has been amazing because I actually learn in the process

[plush pike]

I'm not blocking people for having different opinions, please note. Just for calling my honest suggestions "shitposts" and being a dick.

[sick valve]

yeah like when #spoilers was still updating about the chapter different people were tossing the same argument up every 45 minutes

literally could set your clock to it every 2 hours the cycle began anew

[kind gate]

lmao

[sick valve]

and it was different users every time, like they all came from the same community and were acting like they themselves thought of it

[plush pike]

Now lets hear your superior theories. I'm all ears and probably will side with you if you make a compelling case.

[obtuse gazelle]

It’s not like characters who can masterfully recreate an image of Oden aren’t in Wano ... even though their “death” was offscreened ... but let’s believe Oden is alive and came back from the past after coming back from the future

[plush pike]

Kanjuro makes sort of sense, but then, who was the figure crying over them?

[sick valve]

someone entirely different

[obtuse gazelle]

Hyiori most likely

[kind gate]

fr and everyone who I've tried to explain the toki time travel theory to hasn't accepted the fact that not only would it complicate things unnecessarily but it would just be terrible writing that someone who's past the 5th grade wouldn't consider doing

[sick valve]

I mean I can see Kanjuro because he is perfectly capable of drawing imitations of people, he did it for himself

[plush pike]

Why would Kawamatsu say this about Hiyori when he just saw her?

[sick valve]

I however am not sure that he'd be able to replicate Oden's voice because we haven't seen him act as someone else

[grizzled fog]

You know Hiyori and Toki look identical right

[patent sail]

That’s my conclusion too

[sick valve]

it's not even that Hiyori and Toki look similar Onimaru could've been in the room as well

[obtuse gazelle]

Then Kanjuro himself, that silhouette wasn’t really crying if you look at it, but rather grinning and pressing their jaws in anger

[plush pike]

Yeah, so why would Kawamatsu assume it's Toki when it's Hiyori?

[plush niche]

why does nekomamushi look small lol

[sick valve]

on the other end Onimaru also makes sense because he can transform and speak

[plush pike]

If you're in a dark room, and your brother and dead father look exactly the same, and you see a figure in the room, do you immediately assume it's your dead father, or your brother who you saw earlier? It's less of a stretch to assume Kawamatsu can sort of tell the difference.

[grizzled fog]

Wouldn’t know, possibly because he seemed to be hardly conscious, in a semi lucid state? Might’ve thought he was in heaven

[obtuse gazelle]

Depends on what state are you in, and given their state he could have easily mistaken her for Toki

[pure raven]

51

[grizzled fog]

The scabbards were badly injured, they may have been heading to death prior to being tended to, kawamatsu may have even thought he had died, and was seeing Toki in the afterlife

[kind gate]

I'd rather be clueless going into the next chapter, rather than throwing up one of the most unlikely things to happen. Time travel is something writers don't play with because the intelligent people in the community would easily be able to call their bluff
meanwhile something like kizaru's speed could be connected to his thinking not being able to keep up with his actions, or kizaru being said to be lightspeed was just an inaccurate mistake on Odas part

[plush pike]

But that's not anyone's first instinct, is it? You wouldn't immediately jump to conclusions that a character who has been dead for 20 years is the one you saw, when Hiyori, whom you have just seen, is still alive and has a stake in the battle.

[sick valve]

I mean we can bring someone here to near death and find out

[grizzled fog]

Could very well be, without reading their minds we don’t know

[kind gate]

And please for the love of God do not defend temporal time travel by saying he's going back to the present not the past

[obtuse gazelle]

Again it depends on your state, if you’re succumbing to your injuries your mind can go astray which probably was the case here

[sick valve]

also on this note as well I don't think Hiyori is aware Kanjuro is the mole

[plush pike]

I can see a very narrow possibility of that being true, but it would make those panels more of a misdirection from Oda rather than a clue.

[sick valve]

and maybe possibly because he fulfilled his role in delivering Momo to Orochi he now wants to do something else

note: I'm more on the idea that it's Onimaru acting as Oden

[warped patio]

Oda the sly fox, timed his 2 week break

[kind gate]

for some reason this Oda seemed to think the scabbards grew even though its only been a month for some of them, I sadly believe this to be a new shape shifting character and I honestly won't be happy about it
I don't think Kanjuro would make that mistake

[sick valve]

because Onimaru at least we know is alive and was on Wano

[plush pike]

A lot of people are, but remember, Gyukimaru still had the eyebrows of Onimaru, so we don't even know if he can perfectly replicate his transformations.

[sick valve]

I mean Gyukimaru isn't a specific person

it's just the human form that Onimaru takes

[plush pike]

Yeah, and like Chopper, who still has the same skin color and sort of face.

[pure raven]

Notice Franky's shirt design. This must be foreshadowing for Zoro having a mechanical eye.

[warped patio]

He is not the young Oden it seemed he has aged without being sent forward in time as his prowess is different

Assuming he is Oden 🍢

[plush niche]

who else would it be

[plush pike]

If it is, he must be Oden after he returned to Wano, because of his beard.

And probably even after he gave away his swords to Toki, which he did on the eve of his execution...

[obtuse gazelle]

It’s really not Oden I assure you Oda won’t do that to this great arc to ruin it just like that

[pure raven]

https://tenor.com/view/luffy-buggy-onepiece-clapping-clap-gif-4815787

[sick valve]

that's also the effects of Chopper's Devil Fruit

[warped patio]

That means zero might have to settle for the other cursed sword if he returns enma

[plush pike]

We have no reason to believe Onimaru doesn't have a Zoan type devil fruit. It's the only precedence we have for transforming into other creatures including humans.

[sick valve]

I don't think Zoro is returning Enma

[lunar shell]

yep, if its Hiyori it make no sense for kawamatsu to say " it can't possibly be true "

[plush pike]

At least it makes little sense, and explanations will have to be far fetched

[pure raven]

Mihawk is the strongest swordsman and Sweating againts Zoro xd

[warped patio]

Oden be coming back like Tupac

[lunar shell]

oh boys I guess every serv has its trolls

[craggy pumice]

definitely

[pure raven]

Hey! Temporary time travel is totally ok! How dare you!

[plush pike]

Unless Oden was also in the room, and that's who Kawamatsu saw, and then Oden left and rejoined the room to make a more dramatic entrance?

[pure raven]

This is the guy I got blocked by for calling his theories shitposts ↑

[lunar shell]

@pure raven lol, obv I'm talking about Kuina

[obtuse gazelle]

Oh damn

[pure raven]

'Oden left and came back in'

[pure raven]

Aaaa kuina

[warped patio]

No one cares

[kind gate]

His acting skills were always under-appreciated

[obtuse gazelle]

He went for a quick bathroom break

[kind gate]

wrong ping lol
my bad

[sick valve]

Also when Oden makes his appearance notice the smoke at his feet

which is in line with Onimaru transforming

[kind gate]

smoke machine, the scabbards have been teleported to a parallel universe where they are actors and have a badly written script

[plush pike]

It's also in line with Robin appearing in Black Maria's room. Robin is Onimaru confirmed.

[warped patio]

Oden ate tori's fruit

[kind gate]

tori? victorious?

[plush pike]

Notice smoke on ground

[warped patio]

Tokis fruit and jumped forward in time

[craggy pumice]

thats because she bloomed there

[sick valve]

see: petal accents

[plush pike]

So Oden blooms when he makes entrance too, idk what to tell you, it's not an Onimaru confirmation

[craggy pumice]

yeah its not because its Kanjuros drawing

[obtuse gazelle]

Let’s talk about the best theory to ever exist : Imu having the Den Den mushi df

[warped patio]

Oden wore a bullet proof vest

[kind gate]

Oda was prolly trying to throw everyones scent off with onimaru
but he put little hints to dispel all theories leaving the readers clueless
we don't know who Oden is
I guarantee no theory is coming true

[plush pike]

Could be.

[sick valve]

I could believe Kawamatsu is referring to Onimaru since Kawamatsu hasn't met with Onimaru in quite a while

[craggy pumice]

thats possible

[sick valve]

since he got captured and was imprisoned for a while

[plush pike]

That would be the hope, that Oda has actually managed to trick all of us

[sick valve]

but I don't know if Onimaru has met Oden before

[kind gate]

he has

[sick valve]

I mean if this is the case it's going to require a bit of explanation as to why

[plush pike]

Yeah, I wonder if Onimaru has met with Oden before, to the point of being able to mimic his mannerisms so perfectly?

[warped patio]

Either Oden is alive or he isn't there isn't a way to 'trick us' out of that

[pure raven]

Schrodinger's Oden

[plush pike]

What if he's both alive and dead at the same time, he's
Schrödinger's Oden, or Schröden.

[pure raven]

[sick valve]

[lunar shell]

@plush pike yes and there is a other moment its when Zoro save toko, there is this smoke as well, so Zoro = onimaru

[warped patio]

So he isn't alive then

[dusky acorn]

^ Proof that the smoke component of certain theories can't really be used as evidence. The effect is given off all the time

[lunar shell]

Let's not forget about the Kanji around Oden appereance in 1007, that can only be found when Kanjuro is drawing something

[dusky acorn]

And it's not like whoever Oden is, would have transformed just a second before walking into the room lol

Besides, Onimaru's smoke cloud disappears like right away

[warped patio]

Kanji?

[lunar shell]

y

[grizzled fog]

I agree it can’t be used as evidence but I would imagine that they transformed into someone else to get all the way into Onigashima, rather than oden since he’s a bit.......uhh conspicuous

[kind gate]

okay someone come up with a theory not involving toki, kanjuro, and onimaru

[warped patio]

Oh so there is like an artist signature on this Oden

[dusky acorn]

There's no significant sound effect used to decipher who Oden is, not quite sure what you mean

[warped patio]

I hope Kanjuro makes amends

[lunar shell]

that would be irrelevent Folarin

[dusky acorn]

There's the sound effect of Oden sliding the door open, and then the "be-beng!" that's been used all over Wano

[craggy pumice]

Scabbards are halluzinating in their dying breath

there arent really good theories

[kind gate]

lmao aii
just watch

[lunar shell]

no, cuz the girl with the paper in the head say there is one more person

[craggy pumice]

except onimaru and kanjuro which are okay

[dusky acorn]

Pretty much impossible, all options have been exhausted. There's only so many powers that can give you a 1:1 resemblance of another person in this series

[sick valve]

the crazy bitch on Blackbeard's crew

[kind gate]

yh but still have problems

[warped patio]

Oden is alive

[sick valve]

or my favorite batshit theory

[lunar shell]

Oden can't be alive, he died

[craggy pumice]

yeah there is a bit explanation needed in both

[warped patio]

Theory 4

[sick valve]

that Mr. 2 got out of Impel Down and somehow made contact with Oden and is able to imitate him

[kind gate]

watch it be another shapeshifter,
wait do we know all the skills of that ninja group?

[lunar shell]

if its the real Oden, then it involve Toki

[dusky acorn]

Mr. 2 is 110% impossible even if he wasn't in Impel Down because he'd need to touch Oden's live body to gain his image

[lunar shell]

well the teapot tanuku can be a mujina and transform into both toki and Oden

[warped patio]

Rather Oden survived

[gilded wagon]

Holy shit good point, the oniwabanshu worked for the kozuki originally didn’t they?

[dusky acorn]

And from what we saw how he died, and how many years passed, I doubt there's any remains left

[sick valve]

yep, didn't stop people suggesting it in #spoilers

[warped patio]

Oh

[kind gate]

I believe so,
would make sense they tried to trick them and. got something wrong

[warped patio]

It could fukurokuju

[sick valve]

Catarina Devon is possible but idk if she'd be able to fully imitate Oden down to his voice with the only visual reference being his wanted posters

[gilded wagon]

Was fukurokuju the only ninja that disappeared?

[dusky acorn]

Fukurokuju is the only Oniwabanshu ninja left anyways, and I don't think any transformation ability has been developed with him, would be completely out of the blue

Yeah

[visual merlin]

I assume the voice comes with it

[sick valve]

also the Blackbeard Pirates going from the Pirate Island to Wano without being noticed

[warped patio]

Devon was last seen with blackbeard

[sick valve]

that's my main problem with Devon though, because the only time we've seen her imitate someone else she was assumably in direct contact with them (being Absalom) so she did hear his voice before he died

[kind gate]

either way I believe we are still not considering some things
lets think out of the box guys

[warped patio]

In one piece world, chapters that take years are often 2 days so I doubt blackboard will have travelled yet unless there is like a week time skip

[gilded wagon]

Welp

[sick valve]

ope

[warped patio]

Who

[gilded wagon]

Before y’all tear me to pieces, this was from the fukurokuju Wikipedia page

[dusky acorn]

Well, that could just be foreshadowing Fukurokuju helping Orochi to gather himself as he comes back with his remaining 7 heads or something. Like, be his lone bodyguard or something

[kind gate]

either way I'm a genius

[gilded wagon]

Yeah I believe that’s exactly what’s happening with that character

[kind gate]

praise me peasants

[sick valve]

is Yamata No Orochi capable of imitating people? like in legend

[cyan berry]

No

[sick valve]

aw boo

[kind gate]

I feel like we've limited our ideas lets just look at all possible wano characters

[warped patio]

OK team leader

[kind gate]

lmao I'm far from that I'm more like 5th division captain

[sick valve]

I mean all the characters that have been demonstrated to be capable of imitating other people have been introduced

[warped patio]

🖖

[sick valve]

unless we're tossing a totally new character into the mix, or giving a present character powers that haven't been demonstrated yet

[gilded wagon]

I truly think it’s Hiyori and Onimaru, I believe that Onimaru will fulfill his role as Benkei, protecting Hiyori until the bitter end and Hiyori will be yoshitsune, toppling the kurozumi clan by killing orochi once and for all & consolidating power to her younger brother momonosuke

[warped patio]

Na I think that Fukurokuju one might be it

[kind gate]

hmm, I guess
I feel like it could be a new character or one unaware of their time travel

[warped patio]

Oda the sly fox is the type to pull that rabbit out

Or the 9 weakened scabbards vs 8 heads of Orochi

Assuming Kiku hasn't already died from Blood loss

[kind gate]

I doubt he brought him back but Oda might be using it in the literary sense, like he 'revived' the dead

[gilded wagon]

There’s no way that inu, Neko, and Raizo don’t take on Jack in the upcoming battle

[warped patio]

Yee

[sick valve]

I mean the fights are being shuffled around so who knows who's facing who outside of those on the rooftop

[warped patio]

That too

[gilded wagon]

Are they though? Who’s been shuffled around ?

[warped patio]

Oda really is a genius, how can his fans draw up so many theories from his plot

Wizard

[sick valve]

I mean the premise with the card theme of the enemy is that the opponents will shuffle around with the straw hats and their allies, Sanji has been freed up, Yamato is running around with Momo, Perospero is going after Marco

hell I didn't even know Jimbe was fighting Who's Who until there was a panel for it

[gilded wagon]

How... we literally had a few panels of intro to that battle

[warped patio]

Perespero is Big Mom Pirates

[sick valve]

and Ulti and Page One have fought against Luffy, Yamato, Nami, and Ussop

[craggy pumice]

Jinbei stood before WW in 998

[sick valve]

Perospero is still apart of the enemy

yeah it escaped my mind until I saw the panel when Sanji cried for help

[warped patio]

I don't know tbh

[sick valve]

there's so much going on in the fight on Onigashima it's hard to keep track of the minor bits

[warped patio]

We'll have to carry on reading

I'd hate for Nami and Usopp to verse Big Mon and Kaido

[sick valve]

ultimately that's the goal with Oden as well

gotta keep reading and see how Oda addresses it

[warped patio]

One piece can sometimes be a shit show for the untrained eye

[sick valve]

I mean I've tried focusing on minor details as well it's just there's so much going on it's hard to remember everything on one or two readthroughs

[warped patio]

With the amount of elements within an arc

[sick valve]

I mean I'm waiting for Oda to be an absolute troll and not address "Oden" at all

[warped patio]

Like he did with Kaido Hybrid

The one holding all the cards is Oda lmao

[sick valve]

I mean at least with Kaido Hybrid we're likely going to get to see before the end of the arc unless he completely wipes the 5 on the roof off screen

[warped patio]

Imagine

[lunar shell]

that would make a rough ending for one piece

[drowsy marsh]

😤💯

[sly mulch]

Isn’t a little bit weird how Oda still didn’t show us how the Cat and the Dog escaped from Kaido forces 20 years ago ??

The numbers and the all star officers were there too

[pure raven]

Is bon clay going to be in the final fight?

[dusky acorn]

We didn't need to see them escape since Denjiro and Ashura already stayed back to save them, so the inference was already there. That's two Scabbards on the scene to save them who are tough enough already, but they didn't need to take out all the soldiers in any case. Denjiro and Ashura only needed to cut through and get the Dukes out of the Numbers grasp whom held them and flee after, so no Calamities fights were to be had there

And we see Denjiro and Ashura in the aftermath after escaping themselves, who were both bloody. The way the minks escaped isn't really important, it's just a small portion of the story that was offscreened which we don't need to see

[sly mulch]

Makes sense

[sacred hawk]

You know how the marines are currently fighting against the Warlords? What if that's just a way for Oda to get them into the new world for the final arc.

[visual merlin]

well amazon lily and Mihawk's place aren't in the new world if that's part of what you meant

though I guess Mihawk could run to somewhere in the new world

[sacred hawk]

That is what I mean. In order to get involved with the story from this point on, Mihawk and Hancock will need a reason to leave their islands and go to the New World

[sly mulch]

What role does OToko play in the story ?? Any ideas @dusky acorn

[visual merlin]

I don't think Boa will be able to leave, the kuja only have 1 ship (for the pirates) so they wouldn't be able to get everyone on the island out

Mihawk I can see needing to escape though, so maybe he ends up somewhere in the new world ye

[lunar shell]

And mihawk is too strong for the marine that went after him

[visual merlin]

we don't know this

[lunar shell]

I do

[sacred hawk]

The citizens of the island will probably say something like "You need to survive" and make her leave

[visual merlin]

if there's an admiral after him then he's probably not too much, an admiral is already enough to give him a good fight Im sure, so adding a few vice admirals to that and fodder to be distractions is going to be very troublesome for Mihawk

[visual merlin]

ehhhh, highly doubt Boa's just gonna accept something like that. Not unless she just doesn't care about being a leader to the island

I think she'll just try her best to protect the island

[sacred hawk]

Techinally, all Mihawk needs to do in stand at the shore and fire slashes at the boats. Admiral or not, they won't be able to clear the distance in time to stop Mihawk.

Unless Kizaru is there

[lunar shell]

He wasnt

[visual merlin]

any admiral should be able to stop whatever mihawk does honestly, at least enough to get themself on the island

[lunar shell]

If he is and was off screened, then the fool is dead

[dusky acorn]

Well, it's tough for her to do much more in the story just off her age and lack of fighting prowess.
I suppose once Wano is liberated and things potentially go back to the way they used to be, she could be the new Daimyo of Hakumai since she's the daughter to Yasuie and theoretically the rightful heir.
It might sound ridiculous but hey, if Momo is to be Shogun at his age then she should be fine to lead a lesser region with the proper vassals guiding her

[lunar shell]

Wich is not an option story wise

[visual merlin]

and once the admiral is on the island Mihawk won't get the luxury of slashing at the ships

[visual merlin]

?

[lunar shell]

?

[visual merlin]

we don't know who's after Mihawk lol, we didn't see kizaru yea, but we also saw absolutely no one, it doesn't mean there's 0 people after mihawk

[sacred hawk]

At best, the admiral can stop it for the ship they're on. But I don't see how they'd protect the other ships

[visual merlin]

block the slash

worst case scenario let the ships get sliced then jump to the island and start fighting him

then the people on those ships can figure it out for themselves

[lunar shell]

I dont see yamato into the mugiwara at all

Or shoul i call her : oden ?

Oops, him

[dusky acorn]

If not Yamato, I surmise you would prefer Tama instead then?

[lunar shell]

Tama would give the mugiwara too much strength

Why not carrot ?

I dont

[wind geode]

I wish that non of the new characters join

[lunar shell]

#weirdo

You dont want to mess with me. I have an army at my command

[visual merlin]

carrot isn't new so we good

[wind geode]

I mean more tama and yamato

[visual merlin]

ah okay

[lunar shell]

Tama will make her own crew. Yamato and carrot can join her

[wind geode]

Yamato can make her own crew

[visual merlin]

prolly won't though

[wind geode]

Yamato wants to leave wano the minks will teach her

Its a joke she fights like kaido got Zoan devil fruit but wants to be oden

[acoustic helm]

After wano
News will be covered up lol.
But sakazuki will be like , now samurai side with that brat
😂

[wet shoal]

Yo

[queen arrow]

i'm pretty sure Boa does not care about the Kuja or Amazon Lily

[merry sentinel]

I really want to know who Luffy's mom is and a backstory would be fire

[distant ibex]

i want to know more about dragon's backstory

[wet shoal]

Do you think Dragon could have been Rocks?

[merry sentinel]

i want them to confirm his devil fruit as well if he has conquerors haki

[distant ibex]

yep

[distant ibex]

no lol

[wet shoal]

Its possible tho, let's say he used to have different personalities like blackbeard and the evil one overtook him

Wait he would be like 17 at the time

[merry sentinel]

they dont look close at all tho and he had a different goal so it would be impossible

[pure raven]

garp fighting his own son with roger

[wet shoal]

That would be an awesome twist tho, Garp hunting his son down because his evil side took over

[pure raven]

Manga therie lufffy is a guy

[lament cave]

nah

[pure raven]

I got proof

[grizzled fog]

Why?

[lament cave]

oh?

[pure raven]

Boa loves men

[lament cave]

isnt this the opposite of everything boa stands for

[pure raven]

And she loves Luffy

[pure raven]

She loved Luffy who is a man

[grizzled fog]

She does not

[pure raven]

She’s lesbian???????????????

[lament cave]

since she hates men and love luffy, wouldnt this make luffy not a man??

[grizzled fog]

Luffy is like the only man she’s remotely positive about, even Rayleigh she’s just indifferent about

[pure raven]

Wait, WAIT NEW THERIE LUFFY ISNT A GUY

[queen arrow]

because of the situation where she literally shows she doesn't care about them, on the Amazon Lily arc

[grizzled fog]

She’s selfish and immature sure, but I don’t think it’s really fair to say she doesn’t give a shit about them

[queen arrow]

i think it is

[copper frost]

she's their queen, its not fair to say she doesnt care, this is just not true

[queen arrow]

this is the mentality she has about ruling the country

[copper frost]

that was how oda initially characterised her, not indicative of how she actually rules or that she doesnt care

[lament cave]

thats more just saying what she could do because of her beauty, not blatantly stating that she doesnt care

[queen arrow]

to me it's blatant that she doesn't care, just as she didn't care about Nyon's safety after throwing her out of a window

[copper frost]

this is headcanon as well, believing that she doesn't care about her own tribe that she grew up in on the basis of panels that seek to provide an initial view of the character not indicative of the actual argument, she does indeed care for the kingdom

[queen arrow]

show any evidence of her caring

[copper frost]

your "evidence" isnt strong as well, my friend

[queen arrow]

Grandma Nyon cares, and she shows legitimate worries for the country, which Hancock ignores

[copper frost]

she calls them their brethren, doesnt want them to disapprove of her when they see the hoof of the celestial dragon, sure it can be said that she cares and also, since luffy, she has begun to take care of her subjects and treating them well, not indicative of just the initial character we see but as of now, she's a more caring and compassionate queen towards her subjects willing to defend her subjects even when the marines came after her, its not like she's charming all of them with her fruit to make them love her, her subjects genuinely love her and as she grew with the amazon lily arc, the more it became apparent that she did care

[queen arrow]

but eh, if you don't want to take her ridiculous selfishness and she literally saying that if she ruined the country it wouldn't matter because she's beautiful as her not caring then whatever

[night jewel]

She became a warlord because she cares, she joined the world government despite having her life ruined by them, thats enough proof

[copper frost]

why are taking statements at face value lmao

[queen arrow]

because she says it during a serious moment, and i have no reason to doubt it

[copper frost]

her hyperbolic pose when she looks up in the air so much that she just stares at the sky while saying that screams serious, yes

[queen arrow]

she also doesn't care about the possibility of losing said Warlord titles if it means she has to obey the government's orders

[pastel summit]

she managed to maintain that position for like, a decade. so idk what this proves.

[copper frost]

why are you taking just the initial introduction to the character we saw and not the events thereafter that prove otherwise where she demonstrably shows she cares for her subjects?

[queen arrow]

for context, she says this after literally kicking a kitten

[pastel summit]

you're snapshotting 1 moment of her, and ignoring the context. if she really didn't give a shit, she'd never take the position in the first place.

the fact that she was willing to work with the govt. despite her history with it should say something

[queen arrow]

and she certainly didn't keep the title by obeying orders, on her own admission

[pastel summit]

please explain why she took the title

[copper frost]

this is just blatant snapshotting of her introduction in the context of how oda wanted to bring her in, she shows more caring in her words and actions after that inital introductory moment too, she changes with luffy and she demonstrably shows how much she cares for her subjects when she was willing to defend her kingdom from the marines, you're just taking an initial snapshot of her and painting an entire picture

[queen arrow]

idk, but she certainly doesn't mind risking it and subsequently endangering Amazon Lily and the Kuja

[pastel summit]

please explain why she took the title

don't say "idk", give a reason. think of something.

[queen arrow]

i said i don't know, that's not shown in the manga

[copper frost]

can you explain the reasoning for why she became a warlord, even based on conjecture, based on the events we saw?

[queen arrow]

what's shown in the manga is, that if it came down to it, she'd rather refuse obeying the government than keeping the title

[pastel summit]

please explain why you think she would ever take the title. Don't just parrot what the manga says and expect it to give you an explanation.

[copper frost]

oda doesnt show everything for a reason, it isnt always apparent in the text but there are implications to why she took the title, you can just gather inferences from the information given too, mate

[queen arrow]

wait so I'm wrong for using actual manga panels and not headcanon?

[pastel summit]

joining the warlords is obeying the govt. In some form or another, it is submitting to the WG, whether symbolically or functionally, it is still submitting to them, and working for them.

that's not what I said, but sure. if that's how you want to interpret it.

[copper frost]

you're using the manga panels that paints an introductory picture and then inferring on her entire character regardless of what she shows later on in the arc and in the story

[bitter shoal]

didn’t grandma nyon abandoned her duties and country for a man

[lament cave]

i mean proof enough is that the only reason shes a warlord is because its the only way she can keep amazon lily safe, if she didnt care she wouldnt care to become a warlord, this conversation doesnt really need to be carried further

[copper frost]

i dont think that's justifiable and its still headcanon in terms of how you're actually using the text to paint a picture of her not caring

[pastel summit]

she is purposefully painted in a particular light in her introduction, to make the readers have a certain opinion of her. but you are applying just that part, as if it's her whole character

despite the fact that if that's all she was, it'd be contradictory for her to even accept the position of warlord.

[copper frost]

context clues exist too, oda doesnt spoonfeed and just claim that ok here's a reason why she became a warlord, oda also is an author who likes readers to infer logically based on the material he's giving us, she clearly is painted in such a light

[pastel summit]

and it also just ignores that Luffy obviously changes her outlook on stuff. Even if you want to say she was extremely selfish prior to that, her character obviously changes afterwards.

[queen arrow]

not really

[copper frost]

?

[pure raven]

Most rulers in One Piece are doing their own thing and have a mutual hate towards the World Government, whether it be for good or bad reasons

[queen arrow]

she's infatuated with Luffy, but she still acts the same to everyone else