classic-doom

[crystal hill]

I appreciate it being very loud, so the player isn't blind sided by it, considering how deadly it is

and when it's about to fire, it goes silent for JUST long enough for you to be able to react and try to get out of danger

[true urchin]

god its so good

[true urchin]

you know i never noticed it but you're right

brilliant detail

[bitter shoal]

counterpoint: ||Pirate DOOM 2's Arachnotron||

[crystal hill]

it's pretty unique. Most other monsters make a noise just as they are about to hit you, but the arachno goes silent

which, again, fits, for how bloody loud it is

[true urchin]

ive never played pirate doom 2 so idk

the more i play classic doom the more i realize this game's sound design is absolutely incredible

[bitter shoal]

they definitely were making the game with high end sound cards in mind

[true urchin]

like beyond just gameplay it gives so much character to every enemy and even some of the weapons

[crystal hill]

Doom 1's a little lacking in that regard

a lot of them have similar death noises

[true urchin]

symptom of generally weak enemy variety i fear

[bitter shoal]

they used to have random pitches as well, but got removed and enabling them I could see why. I think it might've been fine if the range of change was much smaller

[true urchin]

but even then what was there was really good

hot take i think the combat shotgun has better sound design than the ssg

[crystal hill]

it's not that bad

they're for the most part very distinct in their roles, they could have gotten unique sounds

[true urchin]

i like the rhythm it has more. shoot, pump, shoot, pump, shoot, pump, etc

[crystal hill]

a cacodemon and a lost soul are very different in how they operate

[crystal hill]

sacrelige. The SSG has a very satisfying sound, AND reload

[true urchin]

yeah but cacos are kinda just flying imps and then hell barons are just really big imps

[crystal hill]

and it has the power to justify this

[crystal hill]

as if flying imps don't play completely differently

[bitter shoal]

most DOOM enemies are some kind of Imp, what matters is how they play generally

mancubus is fat imp cyberdemon is big imp etc

[true urchin]

they can sometimes but sometimes there's a low celing and it doesn't matter

[crystal hill]

they can join in on completely unrelated fights as reinforcements, or ambush you while you're taking a moment in a quiet corner

they have a lot more angles to shoot at you from. And not to mention the greater health, and size

[true urchin]

both of those are fundamentally different on a mechanical level in a way hell barons and imps just aren't

[crystal hill]

Barons are like living doors. You need a lot of time to deal with them, which can make for very interesting fights

you can stick a baron in a corridor, and bam, you cant escape until everything is dead

[bitter shoal]

Cacodemons are one of those enemies that is very dependent on level and encounter design and can change wildly depending on how it is used

[crystal hill]

but they do have potential

[true urchin]

mancs don't just shoot at you, they shoot to the side of you, which drastically complicates your strafing and makes dodging anything harder

[crystal hill]

saying it's just an imp does a disservice to the enemy design

[true urchin]

and cybies have funny splash damage

[bitter shoal]

as I've said before, Barons being blockers IMO can be done with other enemies, I remember talking about an example that was done with two hell knights instead

[crystal hill]

ehhhh

[bitter shoal]

and also arachnotrons to cover the escape

[crystal hill]

you can splash them more easily with rockets

or just kill one and then get away if there's space

[bitter shoal]

in a small space where barons are best used?

[crystal hill]

depends how small

[bitter shoal]

very

[true urchin]

yeah ok calling hell barons big imps is a little unfair (especially when doom 2 introduces the dedicated Literally Just A Larger Imp enemy)

idk i still think doom 1's roster is... lacking

[crystal hill]

then you likely have few other threats to deal with, so can focus more on the baron

Chord 1, I think it is, has a very intense single baron encounter in a tiny room

forces you to do a desperate dance to dodge it and kill it in time

you'd need a bigger room for two hell knights, and as soon as one is dead, the second one is neutered

[true urchin]

seriously most of the doom 2 enemies are fantastic and then they were like "what if we made a hell baron but worse in every way"

[bitter shoal]

you mean better, Barons had way too much HP and hell knights helped with that issue which let them be used more often

[crystal hill]

I wouldnt say better or worse

[true urchin]

i mean yeah they make sense mechanically but like

[crystal hill]

both hell knights and barons have their place

[true urchin]

its a little boring you have to admit

[crystal hill]

boring doesn't mean bad

[bitter shoal]

Barons need like, a very specific circumstance where they are a better enemy and even then I'm not convinced they are actually that much better of a choice than other tanky enemies

[true urchin]

they didnt even get a new design

[sharp wyvern]

Barons and Hell Knights are both good 🕊️

I wish LoR enemies took off so we’d have a similar concept in more levels with the Cyberdemon and Tyrant

[crystal hill]

it's been a year

[true urchin]

they made the baron peanut butter brown and were like "aw yeah this is fire put him Literally Everywhere"

[crystal hill]

And I'm sure unrelated community enemies fill the roles the LoR enemies do

[true urchin]

what's LoR

[crystal hill]

Lord of the Rings

[bitter shoal]

this is why I prefer hell knights because barons being everywhere is so much worse >_>

[crystal hill]

depends on how they're used~

[true urchin]

yeah but like

i just think he's kinda a bitch tbh

[sharp wyvern]

Legacy of Rust

[sharp wyvern]

Yawn

[crystal hill]

wot

[true urchin]

he exists to be a cheap shitty knockoff of a more interesting enemy

[crystal hill]

how are barons more interesting?

[true urchin]

they came first and they're red

[crystal hill]

they're the same enemy but with half/double health

[true urchin]

the red looks better on them

[crystal hill]

ok?

[sharp wyvern]

He exists so you can have Baron gameplay without every encounter with them being a glorified miniboss lol

[crystal hill]

exactly

[true urchin]

baron gameplay is just imp gameplay with bigger numbers tho

[crystal hill]

even with the ssg, which can deal with any other non boss monster easy enough, a baron fight is quite prolonged

fight three of them, and urgh

[crystal hill]

you can have like 10 imps instead of the 1 baron

about the same health, but the fight is a lot different depending on your weapons, the area you are in, etc

[true urchin]

idk man i just think they should have done something to distinguish the knights

give them a little hat or smth idk

[crystal hill]

"This level pack includes Tyrants, which are essentially to Cyberdemons what Hell Knights are to Barons of Hell: recolored versions of a Doom 1 boss with less HP to be used as a regular enemy." This is a pretty common custom enemy even before LoR

[crystal hill]

as long as you can distinguish them at a glance (which you can), they get a pass from me

[sharp wyvern]

I am very aware

[bitter shoal]

yeah I saw something like that watching junkfood levels

[sharp wyvern]

But I would’ve hoped LoR existing would’ve pushed more people to use the enemy type

[crystal hill]

again, it's only been a year since then

I reckon GZDoom wads are where you'd find these kinds of enemies

[bitter shoal]

the elephant in the room is that a lot of wads that use custom enemies probably have their own types, like Eviternity 2 already has its own enemy variations that do new things

[crystal hill]

It depends on what the LoR enemies do, what niche they fill, and if mappers want that kind of thing in their maps

half health cyberdemons are very common because thats a niche people want to fill

[bitter shoal]

Pirate DOOM 2 changed barons to have rocket launchers (cannonballs) which ended up being hilarious because they also fill a new niche where they can in fight each other

[crystal hill]

you mean the second Pirate Doom game?

[bitter shoal]

yeah

[crystal hill]

this way of naming things is always confusing

[bitter shoal]

the first has more custom stuff, I need to finish it at some point

[crystal hill]

I hated it first time I played it, but I grew quite fond of it on replay

[bitter shoal]

they went with a more boom/dehacked take for the sequel instead of ZDOOM port features

[crystal hill]

just a shame it expects you to use freelook

you can play most of the game fine without it, but that one ship stage and two or three of the weapons are kind of impossible without it

[crystal hill]

doomwiki is down yet again

[wintry copper]

interesting, guess I'm just not used to that kinda difficulty yet

I did try to resume SoD and I did beat MAP06 but even then I gave up for good after a bit

[crystal hill]

very understandable. Speed of Doom is still a right kick in the arse

but it's fun if you stick with it

[wintry copper]

it sure is

yeah it's a WAD I'll be sure to revisit at a later date

[median cloud]

I got to poison ivy 2

I think its map 23

Got stuck there and dropped the wad afterwards

[crystal hill]

that one is near impossible if you dont know the best method of attack

still really painful if you do

[median cloud]

Yeah I think thats why I dropped it

Not sure what the hardest map is that Ive beaten saveless

Probably has to be HR map 23 I think

Eviternity 2 map 26 also took me quite a long time to finish

[crystal hill]

Plut 2's Ticket to Eternity might be my proudest achievement

very long, very difficult. One wrong move and I was dead

[bitter shoal]

I do use saves so I can't claim any bragging rights but right now PRCP2 has some of the harder levels I've played.

[median cloud]

Thats also the map where I dropped pl2 haha

[bitter shoal]

maybe I'm biased cause I actually did start pistol starting recently

[median cloud]

but I didnt really give it many tries was just burnt out I think

[bitter shoal]

though I did play one section where not pistol starting wouldn't have made it any easier so there is that

[crystal hill]

I can't imagine I can go back to not pistol starting. My ammo management is too good for that

[median cloud]

HR I quit at map 26, pl2 at map 29, eviternity 2 at map 27

speed of doom map 23, scythe 2 map 23

[crystal hill]

having a super shotgun at the start of every level is a big deal

[median cloud]

I now understand why mtpain got burnt out

[crystal hill]

and yet he keeps playing super hard wads, even to this day

[bitter shoal]

burn out is real, I pace myself and make it okay to not play doom on some days

[crystal hill]

have you seen his recent halloween video? all but one or two of the maps got an A or X for difficulty

[bitter shoal]

Coincident got destroyed by his own ambitions, was sad seeing him gone (and I don't even see him stream other stuff now like I expected)

[crystal hill]

I like playing more than one wad at a time, it keeps things interesting

[bitter shoal]

I'm actually doing that too

[crystal hill]

after a long slog of a map, I can play something shorter and more fun next time

[bitter shoal]

I have both a desktop computer and I have a laptop in bed and I use the laptop to play quirkier stuff like joke wads, 1994 wads, or Cyberdreams

[crystal hill]

I was pairing Resurgence with D2INO, and now that that's kicked it, I'm playing Action Doom 2 Dead of Winter

[bitter shoal]

I should actually set up my steam deck to have doom stuff but it was easier to get it on my laptop

[crystal hill]

but thats not very long, so I think I'll play BTSX Episode 2 next

and quit it almost immediately

[crystal hill]

if you have a mouse, the laptop is better for doom

[bitter shoal]

I played like maybe 1/3rd or half of BTSX 2?

[crystal hill]

a played a third of the first one, and a few maps of the second

Neither of them appeal to me at all

[median cloud]

Im also playing the Pandemonium mod if anyone knows that one

[crystal hill]

out of all the popular megawads out there, those are the ones where my opinion differs the most from regular people

[crystal hill]

doomwiki doesnt seem to have it

[bitter shoal]

I think in retrospect while the maps look really nice so do a lot of other newer stuff, PRCP2 also doesn't look as samey as BTSX2 did

[crystal hill]

it's not just how the maps look

playing them is kind of a joyless experience, like I'm just going through the motions

[bitter shoal]

I forget exacctly how BTSX2 played so I can't comment on that

[crystal hill]

Plut 1 isn't pretty, but it more than makes up for it by kicking ass

[bitter shoal]

I also remember it having zero hype, everyone was playing BTSX1 at the time

[crystal hill]

lol

it won a cacoward though, so people must've liked it

[bitter shoal]

it was a good enough wad just didn't have an x factor probably

I don't like the term I used because I don't know if people get what I mean

I'm mostly evoking the kind of language a streamer I sometimes watch used to describe a game that just has it

[crystal hill]

When I think "x factor", I think something that makes it stand out from the crowd

Chord 3 has it. It's a small, short 2000 map. But it's damn hard, and combat is excellent

Wouldn't be much of anything without the combat

Cyberdreams has it's gimmick, of course

Plut 2 has it's music (as well as the combat, the atmosphere, the texturing, the combat. Can you tell I like this wad?)

[bitter shoal]

The Plutonia Revisited Community Project 2 maps I described by the author as being the most stereotypical Plutonia maps you can imagine have that x-factor. It's like instead of taking the chaingunners and revenants as constructive criticism the author leaned into it and had fun with them.

there were still other enemies but it was clear where the heart of thos maps lied

[crystal hill]

you can do a lot with both of those monsters

[bitter shoal]

yeah, Plutonia 2 used a more balance set of monsters but seeing a map author use those particular ones in such a profound way ironically made me more nostalgic for Plutonia 1 than PRCP1 did which mimicked map layouts and encounter set pieces

[crystal hill]

PRCP1 tried to mimick Plutonia, but made worse maps for it

(it also had some general stinkers in there, unrelated to Plutonia)

[bitter shoal]

yeah

I want to say it had good maps but I don't even remember them now

well I want to say Xaser's maps are good but problematic in a lot of areas

[crystal hill]

*in all the areas

I very very rarely like any of his maps, and PRCP's are no exception

but he managed to make a really damn good Map 31 for D2INO, which shocked me

[solemn socket]

question: can i talk about HacX?

or any of the IDTECH 1 derivatives?

[bitter shoal]

I watched mtpain's PRCP1 vid and he described xaser's maps as something like vanity projects so there must be some history with xaser maps and their reception I hadn't been around for

[bitter shoal]

I was able to talk about Strife without getting moderated

[crystal hill]

I don't see why not

[solemn socket]

right

[crystal hill]

vanity project might be a good way to describe them. They do look real pretty, for the most part

I cant think of a map of his that I found ugly or boring

[wintry copper]

yea Helix for one looks really good and has pretty grand setpieces

but as he said it does feel a little too big for something like PRCP

[bitter shoal]

I genuinely do dig the gameplay gimmicks in the levels that were in PRCP1 like the helix stairway and the start of the other map that was tyson-esque but yeah in retrospect those maps wouldn't have fit well in any other Plutonia mapset, let alone one that more closely copies Plutonia 1

then again there was a lot of bad enemy placements (or rather bad choices of enemies to put in those places) in the 2nd half of the not-helix map which sucks because the actual map itself was so cool

[crystal hill]

they're cool artpieces, but doom maps arent there to just be looked at

[wintry copper]

yeah

Deus Vult kinda falls under this as well

[median cloud]

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/147517-pandemonia-v2632-monsters-only-anarchy-and-insurrection-addons/

Its this

[crystal hill]

oh, I don't use gameplay mods

[median cloud]

I get that tbh I usually just play vanilla as well but its been pretty cool to play

[crystal hill]

it looks like the kind of thing that'd fundamentally change the way Doom is played

which is cool for those who want that, but I'm good with what I have

[median cloud]

It does actually especially at later levels you go up against monster variants where the only course of action is to peek and shoot. Maps reliant on infighting also become much harder

Im at sod map 31 one and its a nightmare

I think sod map 32 will be impossible

[crystal hill]

yeah, doesn't sound good

[median cloud]

Different question but do you use a launcher to play Doom?

[crystal hill]

yeah, ZDL

I can't drag and drop wad like I used to on Windows, so I kind of have to. Unless there's a different way to do it I'm not aware of

[median cloud]

you on mac/linux?

[crystal hill]

linux

[bitter shoal]

Map 23 of PRCP2 was really cool except for a soft lock that happened

oh boy map 24 ||has over 500 monsters D:||

oh this is a Tatsurd-caco map

more spoilers: ||and he took 26 minutes to beat his own map as a speedrunner this might take more than a day >_>||

[full shoal]

just finished Nemesis from Alien Vendetta! Amazing map

Took me quite a few tries

[mortal silo]

you didnt like LOR? i thoght his maps there were really good

[crystal hill]

Havent really played it

When it came out, I got two maps in then threw in the towel

[oak adder]

hey guys

do you guys have a favorite song in the classic doom games?

one of mine is e1m4 from doom 1

[crystal hill]

E2M1's I Sawed the Demons is a favourite

It's very energetic, especially in the second half. It really elevates the level it is in

[pale imp]

Deep into the code
By Andrew Hulshult
From the album IDKFA

[median cloud]

Waiting for Romero to play - Doom 2 map 18/27

Sinister by Andrew Hulshult is also great

Soldier of Chaos - TNT map 07, Horizon - TNT map 20

think fav is still waiting for romero to play

[crystal hill]

if we're counting TNT - Sadistic from Map 1 (the only map I willingly play at all frequently). Gets me pumped up to play Punch Out

[thick glade]

i love e2m8’s theme

[thick glade]

https://tenor.com/view/punch-out-super-macho-man-knockout-ko-clothesline-gif-5417310610233253655

[full shoal]

I love Them Bones song

I think it's bye bye american pie?

[median cloud]

Correct

[mortal silo]

theyre gunna get you is classic

[median cloud]

Doom put me onto so much metal

Them Bones and This Love are 10/10 songs

[thick glade]

its nuts(.wad) how much bobby prince was able to get away with

[median cloud]

Im glad he did because I love the doom soundtrack

I got this game centric playlist on spotify to put on when I play video games

and all of the andrew hulshult tracks are added to it

Too bad most game directors are so stingy with their music can only find remixes on spotify

[crystal hill]

Even if he didn't, I'm sure people would have modded it back in

[median cloud]

These days thats rarer

I keep searching for soundtracks for specific games but really tough to find

[crystal hill]

responding to this

[thick glade]

good news for you

[median cloud]

Especially Nintendo, love their games hate the company

[thick glade]

you can download songs and add them to spotify

[crystal hill]

this is why I download songs and keep the files on my phone

[median cloud]

Yeah... but then it only saved locally and not synced to other spotifys

[crystal hill]

I dont like relying on the internet and spotify

[median cloud]

ya thats how I did it in the past as well

[crystal hill]

I havent seen a particularly good reason to convince me to switch

[median cloud]

Theres none aside from it being more effort on your part

[crystal hill]

if anything, I've grown more jaded with streaming and not actually owning things

[little oar]

That's the magic of having someone with a law degree making your music, they know exactly what they can and can't get away with
Granted that wouldn't have stopped id anyways because the first wad in Maximum DOOM just uses midi Star Wars music lol

[crystal hill]

I've made an effort to have all my favourite games available off line

so if steam or whoever decides to take them away from my online account/s, I'm not screwed

[oak adder]

I think the remixed tracks are great.

[crystal hill]

Or the companies were too worried about suing Doom, the really popular new game, because it would harm their reputation

[oak adder]

while I think doom 2 ost isn't as good as the first one, it still has some good tracks

[little oar]

DOOM 2 gave us Into Sandy's City so on that basis alone it has a banger ost

[oak adder]

some tracks include: shawn's got the shotgun, adrian's asleep, entryway, etc

[thick glade]

running from evil

https://tenor.com/view/взгляд-2000-ярдов-война-war-soldier-gif-3632617944134077161

[oak adder]

okay that one is good

[pale imp]

yeah I love Andrew Hulshults work

[median cloud]

I love some and dislike others

[crystal hill]

I haven't compared the two in my head much, but D1 has a lot more memorable ones

[median cloud]

Sometimes he tries to metalify the soundtracks that are ingame more calm and chill

and I think it takes away from the vibe the og soundtrack gave

[crystal hill]

E1M1, E2M1, E2M8, E3M8, others I cant place on a specific map

[oak adder]

I kinda agree with this

[crystal hill]

that's kind of his schtick

For better or for worse

[median cloud]

I kinda like the lowkey tracks of Doom 2 compared to the blasting metal of Doom 1

[little oar]

Which stinks because Andrew can do some really good moody stuff. I love "Aetheres" from his Amid Evil work

[pale imp]

thats a good game

[little oar]

I think with D1+D2 he fell into the bethesda/modern DOOM trap of DOOM having to be this constant high octane series instead of having moments of uncomfortable tranquility and atmosphere

[crystal hill]

it comes highly recommended. Similar to Doom in some ways, but different in others

[crystal hill]

it's fine if Doom wants to be that. New Doom, that is. The older games went for something different

So shoving metal into a nice garden doesnt quite work

[little oar]

Yeah

If they were willing to take fan stuff (which IDKFA was at the time of D1+D2), I wish they got permission to include the redone fan ost for Plutonia too

[crystal hill]

probably harder to do so. More people involved

and they've worked with Andrew in the past

[little oar]

Fair

[crystal hill]

I wonder - is talk about games that are technically running on the/a Doom engine allowed in here or #classic-doom-maps-mods ? Stuff like Sonic Robo Blast 2

[median cloud]

Yeah Doom is very metal blasting now

Old doom was a bit of a puzzle game as well

[little oar]

Srb2 is such a different game style I wouldn't even consider it a TC for something like #classic-doom-maps-mods tbh
Something like that probably goes to general like any other video game

[halcyon willow]

On the Hunt, Sign of Evil, Shawn's Got the Shotgun

[crystal hill]

very fair

[crystal hill]

for any vanilla afficionados out there, I recommend you give Brutalist Doom a try

a very welcome change of pace to the over indulgent spectacle of GZDoom wads and gameplay changes

[umbral shale]

Message for the archvile

[oak adder]

archvilles are the worst imo

[umbral shale]

But the song slaps

My message:

[oak adder]

do i dare play final doom?

[little oar]

Yes

[wintry copper]

yes, it's honestly pretty good

[mortal silo]

Plutonia? yes!
TNT? Has some great maps.
Alien Vendetta was sorta a re-do of TNT. And much more well received.

Tom mustaine levels were good.
He also did hell to pay and perdition's gate.

[sharp wyvern]

yeah for real

there's so many tracks that got turned into just straight up high energy metal which weren't originally and it's just kinda silly 😭

[sharp wyvern]

Ehh not reaaally I mean sorta but he's shown with Amid Evil and Dusk he can make ambient stuff

[crystal hill]

they're probably better for just listening to outside of the game, but I can't imagine they're superior for in the game

[crystal hill]

he's capable of it, but he seems most at home with the left and middle of the periodic table

[sharp wyvern]

countdown to death's idkfa remix makes me laugh so hard 😭

[sharp wyvern]

ehh depends 🤷‍♀️

[sharp wyvern]

Sign of Evil/E1M8 from Doom 1, Running From Evil/MAP01 from Doom 2, They're All Going To Laugh At You/E1M5 from Legacy of Rust

[mortal silo]

I overly love the prodeus soundtrack

I feel like Andrew is the best part of everything he has worked on, including doom eternal

His new one is Tokyo underground killer. Another banger ost.
Sadly has ZERO reviews on metacritic. I'm going to have to pick this up for 10$ as I was pretty excited for it a few years ago

[median cloud]

Anyone listened to the Andrey avkhimovich remastered soundtrack of doom

[halcyon willow]

Time for a deep cut
https://youtu.be/uDey8JnltP0?si=5ZXmbFF4lhcufZn-

[little oar]

The DOOM Rebuild ost? It was pretty cool
It was the only way to get the original doom 1/2 osts on spotify too until the IDKFA album came

[oak adder]

if I play final doom, any tips?

[little oar]

Pain elementals can't hurt you if you're close. They lack a melee attack and you and a lost soul can not coexist in the same space
Learn how to fight archviles and well. Very, very well.
Maybe learn the trick to get a revenant to loop its melee attack so it never uses its rockets
If you can't run a rev rocket into a wall, learn its turning radius so you can keep circling and keep it from making contact (you'll get the hang of it sooner or later...probably)

Oh and if you see a monster (chaingunners usually) in the distance and there's no path to them, leave them be. There is a good chance there is probably an archvile hidden behind a wall that'll immediately resurrect them so don't bother wasting ammo on them. The time you wasting shooting and finding that out for sure is time they're also shooting at you. Cut your losses and keep moving

And remember to have fun :) [insert jerma gif here]

[median trellis]

E2M6 - Sinister

[drifting dragon]

Be tuff

[oak adder]

If I manage to beat master levels, maybe ill do final doom

[mortal silo]

Master levels are harder than tnt

[near shadow]

Whats a good mouse for windows 98? I wanna play Doom 2 on it

[low tapir]

Yo

[bitter shoal]

any ps/2 optical mouse I suppose. Most DOOM 2 players in the 90s would have only had trackball mice but I would hesitate to call those good

[near shadow]

Thanks!

[exotic ledge]

Map 30 of TNT Devilution is the first map in the wad that I really, really don't want to finish

I just don't have it in me, I frigging hate the map, and not necessarily because it's too hard, it's just tedious and not fun at all

[bitter shoal]

ouch

bad icon of sin map?

[verbal pawn]

I know pc has some huge advantages then consoles seeing they can have more players than consoles and modify if items respawn. And change what demons spawn or not in nightmare difficulty as or whatever difficulty.

[oak adder]

okay only three more levels in master levels

finally this nightmare is almost over

[mortal silo]

You saw they added another 4 levels? 🔥🔥🔥 Really good stuff and a proper ending imo

[crystal hill]

What's everyone's thoughts on BTSX 1 and 2?

[sharp wyvern]

Kind of fun I guess

[full shoal]

You got it! And next you want to do them on UV saveless and pistol start!

[solemn socket]

its a thing that’s worth the wait.

[median trellis]

just played eviternity map 4, what a killer map

[full shoal]

Just moved to that map yesterday. Can't wait!

[crystal hill]

I've never had a very positive view on either. I played BTSX1 recently, still didn't like it. BTSX2 is a bit better, but I haven't gotten very far into it yet

I asked because they seem very highly regarded by the community, but rarely if ever discussed

[bitter shoal]

BTSX was done by a lot of people that are high up in the community heiarchy aren't they?

[crystal hill]

I'd say so. A lot of big hitters from the mid 2010s and a little earlier contributed to them

[median cloud]

I find btsx overrated as well

[bitter shoal]

It probably says a lot that BTSX Ep. 2 was one of my first higher difficulty megawads but I don't manage to hold a lot of nostalgia for it

though I never actually beat it and it was way too many years ago

(I think I got into the middle maps of it)

anyway I am playing through PRCP2's Map 24 and it is pretty chill past the start (need that change of pace), and it is nice to see what kind of map Tatsurd makes that isn't based on a Casali map directly ||although the start is inspired by a Casali set piece for sure, same source material that helix used except I wasn't as frustrated as I was with Xaser's map 15 start lol, the rest of the map seems completely original though||

[crystal hill]

It might be the biggest disconnect I have between my opinions and the public's

I dont love Scythe 2 but I still think its good

I dont even like BTSX1

[crystal hill]

I'd say it does. A significant portion of my love for Plut 2 is nostalgia, it being my first really hard wad (waaaaay before I was ready for it, lol)

I played it so early, I didnt have nor have played Plutonia 1

[exotic ledge]

I would have preferred an IOS map tbh, this map is trying to be creative, it has you travelling through giant syringes full of blood cells, reminded me a bit of Grezzo Duo 2

The map just feels like a piece of convoluted mess, and it doesn't fit at all with the theme of the map pack so far

[exotic ledge]

Oh, I didn't know, I wasn't able to find the secret exit so I planned to just idclev to 31 after finishing 30

wow, that's insane, I can idclev all the way up to 36, I wouldn't have known otherwise haha. All the maps are called "unamed" and have no music, b ut I'll definitely check them out

For now I'm going to reluctantly slog through Map 30, but I may actually use saves for this one

[bitter shoal]

I think I know of at least one map in PRCP2 I would strongly recommend saves for.

[oak adder]

idk about that

[full shoal]

https://tenor.com/view/doja-cat-star-wars-gif-25078126

[slim dust]

Idkfa about that

[oak adder]

that would break me

[mortal silo]

Yeah I think it requires Choco doom to load correctly, but you can always idmusXX to get some music playing.
I am pretty happy with TNT2 but the extra episode is 🍒 🍰

Pretty sure level 36 is called Final Doom

[twin mortar]

🍒 🔛 🔝 ?

[solemn socket]

^^ they're talking about cherry doom

[willow zinc]

Someone made AO3 run Doom in a page

[woven swallow]

My first thought when I saw that

[crystal hill]

Oh my, that's quite a comparison to make

Grezzo 2 is, uh, certainly unlike most Doom wads

[crystal hill]

play the master levels again? how horrid

[crystal hill]

you got a link?

[crystal hill]

Map 20 of D2INO was a Moudly map, with a really unique premise - you have to run away from Barons at the start, then have them seige a castle you explore all around. At the end, 5 cybers teleport in there and clear out the enemies for you

even in a project where his texturing, music and general "style" can't shine, he still manages to make something quite unlike anything else I've played

[full shoal]

piece of cake

finally got through Dis Union from LoR

few nasty traps

[exotic ledge]

For the most part I've had fun with it, although the difficulty curve felt a bit weird at times. There have been some memorable encounters, and I thoroughly enjoyed I think Map28 it was, the one that's like Wormhole in the original TNT (edit it was Map 27 "Relayer" that I enjoyed)

Unfortunately Map 30 just didn't do it for me, although I can appreciate what they were going for

[exotic ledge]

Such a banger of a track (Wizard Science)

[crystal hill]

unironically harder than TNT

TNT is enjoyable sometimes

[mortal silo]

I lived the U-shaped maps that started it all off. 1-3? I'm a sucker for good vanilla layouts.
Then the city map... 18 or 19? Visually cool but just kinda a burdensom through the visually stunning heck ship.
After that it picked up again but these grassy runescapes felt like they should have been e2.
Haven't got to map 30 yet...

[oak adder]

what would really makes arch-viles a threat is that there is no cover to dodge their attacks

[mortal silo]

I like that the consoles reduced their damage by 50%
Such a nerf would make it more feasible to place more than 2 in a fight

[vestal flax]

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-thumbnail-does-he-know-he-doesnt-know-gif-27552850

seems like 99% of the doom 2 expansions didn't really get the memo there

[polar mural]

https://tenor.com/view/john-romero-14february-beloved-my-poggers-gif-21426639

[analog ridge]

I should give Legacy of Rust a try

[bitter shoal]

only the gba version. prior console ports didn't have the arch-vile period.

but also...

https://tenor.com/view/summer-child-my-sweet-summer-child-old-nan-game-of-thrones-gif-5580217

[mortal silo]

Lol I feel attacked
What am I missing?

[bitter shoal]

it is not uncommon to use more than one arch vile in an encounter

[hexed escarp]

community wads will pretty regularly have fights that include several archviles at once

[native anchor]

I tried playing the Nightdive port with my GameCube controller and it crashed.

[true urchin]

shoutout to map 24 "Post Mortem" from Hell Revealed, gotta be legitimately the worst fucking map i have ever played

i made the mistake of doing a modded hell revealed run and not only does the framerate hover at a consistent 1-3 frames per second but it ALSO crashes regularly just to spice things up

ive played this map before and even when the game isn't shitting itself and dying from sheer particle spam this map is still chronically unfun to play

its not even the hardest map ive ever played tbh since most of the difficulty is frontloaded. but it's an absolute incoherent clusterfuck, a massive slog, completely and intentionally bullshit in many places, and just... unfun

and the worst part is you know just by playing it that that was the point

[bitter shoal]

why are you playing Hell Revealed?

[true urchin]

whoever made this fucking map didn't give one singular shit about whether or not it was fun they just wanted to see how many times they could gank you through random bullshit before you uninstalled the WAD and gave it a one star review on doomworld

[true urchin]

i like the difficulty scaling (mostly)

[bitter shoal]

you know that HR is the reason why I was whining about barons last night right? >_>

HR is kind of made redundant by Plutonia coming out before it, let alone stuff that came out after. It is pretty sloggy.

[true urchin]

i like the fact that it goes from relatively calm to extremely difficult, it's great for playing mods that have stackable upgrades bc the maps scale with you so you dont steamroll everything

it just so happens that about 2 of those later maps aren't difficult bc they're well crafted, they're difficult because they're simply bullshit

[true urchin]

the entirety of plutonia is designed like post mortem

from the beginning to the end plutonia is designed with the philosophy of "fuck difficulty scaling, shove as many unreactable instant kill traps into every single level as possible"

and i simply don't find that fun

[bitter shoal]

it was designed to get into the more complicated battles and bigger weapons right away

[true urchin]

it was designed to cheese you with ambushes you have to have already died to in order to survive

[bitter shoal]

I'd normally talk more about how Plutonia ambushes go but I think I already know where this discussion is headed

[true urchin]

please do it anyway im curious

[bitter shoal]

there are a couple of genuinely cheap moments in Plutonia but usually the rest of the maps after them are far better

besides that the wad aged remarkably well

If you want gradual difficulty progress I recommend Scythe

[true urchin]

scythe is too easy early on

the enemy density is ridiculously low

some maps have single digit mob counts on UV

[crystal hill]

they did fucking what

arch viles dealing 40 damage would make them near harmless

They need the 80+ to make them respectable foes.

[crystal hill]

If there's no way to dodge arch viles or kill them quickly, I'd say thats bad design

Since they are technically hitscanners. Even some enemies to infight would be adequate

[bitter shoal]

Keep in mind this is GBA DOOM 2, with that framerate and controls

[crystal hill]

Even worse

I cant imagine that being a great experience in general

[crystal hill]

You can balance them well. It just takes a little skill

[bitter shoal]

GBA DOOM 2 is still one of the better non-PS1 ports to my knowledge lol (not counting systems that can basically run takes on the PC version at that point.)

[crystal hill]

You seem to be suffering from shitwaditis. I reccomend playing something better as a remedy

[crystal hill]

A good few levels expect you to deal with a number of barons with small arms

Gets very old very quickly on pistol start

[crystal hill]

As if

[bitter shoal]

I am convinced it wasn't really made with pistol start in mind, like they balanced it without it but then went back and did the bare minimum to be playable pistol start

[crystal hill]

If you cant react to any of the traps in Plutonia, I reckon that's a you problem

Rarely if ever is there a trap that just murders you instantly with no counter play available

And Plutonia doesnt make me shotgun barons for 3 weeks straight

[bitter shoal]

There is one that is guaranteed to damage you (to my knowledge anyway) but that is an example where the rest of the level is goated

[crystal hill]

I dont like judging wads based on gameplay mods that fundamentally change how you play them

[crystal hill]

Which one is this?

[true urchin]

yeah but map 24 would suck even if you played it vanilla

[crystal hill]

Any port that nerfs the arch vile cannot leave my shitlist

[crystal hill]

As would most of HR

The early maps are genuinely quite neat, but then the mappers decided sadism was the new hot thing

[true urchin]

yeah...

[bitter shoal]

Start of map 04, you are basically playing to minimize the damage you take.

[true urchin]

"wouldn't it be so funny if you stopped having fun"

no it wouldn't actually that punchline stopped being funny 5 fucking levels ago

[bitter shoal]

somehow I weirdly have more nostalgia for HR than BTSX2 despite HR being kind of terrible in a lot of ways

[true urchin]

map 11 for hr is pretty good

map 12 is decent

[bitter shoal]

There is genuine good in HR it just kind of undermines itself with a lot of fat that needed trimming.

[true urchin]

unfortunately map 13 has a genuinely bullshit unavoidable cage trap, then map 14 boldly asks the question "what if cover just didn't exist"

[crystal hill]

5%, which can be avoided (with difficulty)

[true urchin]

map 15 has a legitimately cool gimmick that's just really clunky in practice

[crystal hill]

In response to this

[true urchin]

and then its just downhill from there i cant lie

[crystal hill]

If thats the worst you can say about Plutonia being unfair, thats quite a good sign

[bitter shoal]

the fact that I can be told I'm wrong when I'm giving an olive branch to the criticism of the game is indeed a good sign

although by 5% do you mean the damaging floor?

[crystal hill]

Yeah

[bitter shoal]

oh no I mean the chaingunners in the part after that where you press a switch to lower the platform you are on

[crystal hill]

I saw bigmacdavis successfully avoid the damage

[true urchin]

does plutonia support lower difficulty settings or naah

[bitter shoal]

I'm sure it does

[crystal hill]

Oh, that. Thats less avoidable

[crystal hill]

It does

[true urchin]

maybe i'll try it on hmp sometime but im not optimistic

it just... doesn't sound fun from everything i've heard

[bitter shoal]

Plutonia's worst moments are what I just mentioned and maybe the Map 09 chaingunner, then after that you are fine

[crystal hill]

At least when pistol starting, taking unavoidable damage is more forgivable to me

[bitter shoal]

that is true actually

[crystal hill]

Is map 09 onslaught?

[bitter shoal]

whatever onslaught is yeah

[crystal hill]

That is utter bullshit. I really despise that map

From start to end

[true urchin]

i'm sure it's relatively balanced but its balanced around you being borderline perfect at the game

[bitter shoal]

I don't agree since I've played stuff way harder than Plutonia

[crystal hill]

Plutonia? Hardly

[bitter shoal]

which means that there has to be a defnitionn of more than perfect and I am far from that

[crystal hill]

I got through Go 2 It recently first try, despite having a few cyber rocket meals delivered right to my face

[true urchin]

i like maps that let you make mistakes without being like "oops you blinked time to restart the stage fucko"

[crystal hill]

That map is hella generous with cells and health

[crystal hill]

Most maps with cyberdemons are like that

[true urchin]

that's just inherent to cyberdemons tbh

not even cyberdemons just missiles from any source

inch slightly too close to a wall and boom you're dead hope you just saved

you had max health and armor? too fucking bad

it's why i almost never use rockets unless it's a wide open stage or im desperate

[crystal hill]

They are way too good to ignore

They're one of the only ways to deal with arch viles in crowds

[true urchin]

yeah but the fact that being slightly off with your aim instantly turns you into hamburger helper makes them feel genuinely awful to use

probably just a me issue but idk i already reset far too often to chaingunner jumpscares i don't need to go and double my reload count

[true urchin]

like what (excluding plutonia)

[crystal hill]

Get a good distance between you and the enenies. And stay some distance away from walls

So even when you miss and hit a corner, you dont feel it

[true urchin]

yeah but you can't always do that

[crystal hill]

So either risk it, or use other weapons

[bitter shoal]

what is the example here

[crystal hill]

It took me a while to get good with it, but it paid off

[crystal hill]

Plutonia 2

[true urchin]

yeah that's what ive been doing that's why the rocket launcher spends most of the mapset with 100 rockets and 0 kills usually

[crystal hill]

For something less tough - Auger Zenith, Ancient Aliens, Whispers of Satan, stuff like that

[bitter shoal]

Why aren't you using rockets on stuff?

[crystal hill]

Yikes .

I presume you dont pistol start?

[true urchin]

no i dont need that stress in my life rn

[crystal hill]

That explains it

[bitter shoal]

okay but even without pistol starting surely you are using rockets on groups of enemies and barons aren't you?

[crystal hill]

But wait, you use saves. Why NOT risk using some rockets to get better with them??

[true urchin]

bc i have shaky aim and sometimes i overaim very slightly clip a wall and die and it makes me very upset

[true urchin]

idk it hasn't felt particularly crucial or necessary

i use it at long ranges and in wide areas

[crystal hill]

That seems impossible

[bitter shoal]

I mean there are times where you wouldn't use rockets because of claustrophobic environments making it too easy to hit a wall but otherwise most maps in wads have open enough areas to where you should use them especially for longer distance enemies

[true urchin]

those just dont come up much

[crystal hill]

Unless you have absolutely copious amounts of cells

Even then, there are things cells just cannot do/cant do as well as rockets

[true urchin]

to be fair most of the time i usually forget i have one

[crystal hill]

Bloody hell

[bitter shoal]

This might honestly be the #1 thing you need to improve

[crystal hill]

Rockets are maybe the most ammo efficient weapon in Doom's arsenal. I cannot even begin to imagine not using them

[true urchin]

idk adhd moment ig

[true urchin]

it feels like most of the time when i think to use it i just dont have rockets

[bitter shoal]

yep, people glaze SSG for being as strong as a rocket but rockets have twice the ammo capacity and better distance, fire speed and aoe.

[crystal hill]

This, basically

[crystal hill]

Yessir

The SSG feels better to use though, and shells are generally more abundant

[true urchin]

the ssg doesn't kill me for a slight aim overcorrection

[bitter shoal]

granted SSG being as strong as rocket is great for saving ammo killing off weakened cybers and masterminds

[crystal hill]

Neither does the rocket

It takes a lot of effort to have one face rocket kill you

[bitter shoal]

sometimes I just SSG a mastermind period just be ause it is so big it will eat every buckshot pellet

[crystal hill]

Absolutely

The mastermind is so big, you can snipe it with the ssg

[bitter shoal]

and doesn't feel that much worse to do than SSG'ing a baron lol

[crystal hill]

If you have cover, its easier

[full shoal]

I usually rocket Mancubi, Barons, Revenants, Pain Elementals (and kill myself by shooting at a charging lost soul and lose 25 minutes of progress)

so I never feel like having too many rockets :D

[bitter shoal]

you might consider turning down your mouse sensitivity

[true urchin]

it helps that compared to the cyber he flinches to a wet breeze

[bitter shoal]

that could be why it is so easy to overcorrect your aim if it is too high

[true urchin]

no i just got twitchy hands

[bitter shoal]

still that could possibly help?

[true urchin]

if i lower the sensitivity then i cant react to the 5 chaingunners that just spawned in directly behind me at point blank

(again)

[bitter shoal]

you might have to adjust to your new turning speed but that would still be better than not being able to precisely aim at things

[median trellis]

I learned how to sr50 last night and it's so fun

[crystal hill]

It all depends on where the enemies are, how close you are to walls, etc

Rockets are terrible in tight fights, but thats what your cells are for

[crystal hill]

This really doesnt happen that often

[bitter shoal]

some doom ports have a quick turn around button you could use as well, usually keyboard only players use it to compensate for no mouse turning

I don't use it myself but it is another possible option for situations like that where you press a switch and immediately want to turn around

[true urchin]

maybe im just playing shitty maps but it feels like random chaingunners popping up behind me happens all the goddamned time

[bitter shoal]

or just immediately start moving backward if you think stuff will start opening at your sides

[true urchin]

last night i went to get a drink of water in the kitchen at 3 in the morning and some chaingunners teleported in behind me and killed me

fuckers are everywhere

[full shoal]

it's just a preference, I usually just shotgun everything until I can't

[true urchin]

i use the shotguns like 80% of the time lmao

[bitter shoal]

I'm usally asking myself how much shotgun ammo will I save if I use a bigger weapon

[crystal hill]

I'm similar, but my switching threshold is fairly low

[true urchin]

zombies throw so many shells at you im always forced to leave some behind

[crystal hill]

In Doom 1, sure

But in Doom 2 and beyond, level designers figured out how to use other monsters

[true urchin]

idk maybe its just shitwaditis talking

[bitter shoal]

but also what I'm saying implies I'm talking about stuff that justifies rockets and cells and not just stuff I could just chaingun or regular shotgun

[true urchin]

you can shotgun most things if you're stubborn enough

[bitter shoal]

Maps don't always accommodate that level of stubborn

[full shoal]

It is a real thing! Chaingunner traps are vicious and no matter what people say they are not easy to deal with. It's needs a good reaction not just to shoot but also to move. One tip is to avoid one side (as the traps usually surround you with enemies) and negate some damage by doing that. So if it's possible run under the chaingunners and kill the opposite side first. But no matter what it will need some good reactions.

[crystal hill]

Not if enemies swarm you

Thats when you need rockets to clear em out

Wish I was at home, so I could show you some examples

[true urchin]

if im being fucking swarmed the last thing i need is a rocket launcher because then im in splash range

[bitter shoal]

Chaingunner ambushes are a real thing, don't get me wrong but they aren't like a complete impossibility either.

[crystal hill]

You can be swarmed without being at point blank

Blast radius of rockets isnt that big

[true urchin]

i dont mind the occasional chaingunner ambush, it's when the mapper keeps doing it over and over that i just get so fucking tired

especially when they spawn behind you every single time

[full shoal]

And I love when heavy weapons dudes start to infight! They rip the shit out of other enemies

[crystal hill]

If anything, chaingunners spawning behind you isnt the worst thing that could be there

[true urchin]

idk mobs teleporting in really close behind me is a massive pet peeve of mine

[crystal hill]

A group of revs is worse, they cant infight among themselves

[true urchin]

this is almost definitely the shitwaditis talking considered i just got done with hell revealed

[bitter shoal]

if it is only ever behind you then usually running forward to find cover is an option as well (this might set off new monsters but that might be worth the risk sometimes)

[true urchin]

but again, done occasionally its great, but when the mapper constantly spawns mobs in behind you every fucking encounter i just get really sick and tired of it

[crystal hill]

Auger Zenith, Whispers of Satan (just avoid the secret maps past 31) and Ancient Aliens will treat you right

[true urchin]

sometimes i would like to be able to see what im getting into and prepare for it instead of it just being dumped on me at random intervals

is that unreasonable? is that a skill issue?

[bitter shoal]

Chaingunners are a meme in plutonia but they don't make that mapset bad either and usually used in smart ways. Most mapsets past plutonia don't use chaingunners as often as plutonia does and you happened to be playing a wad that is known to have aged like milk with HR.

[true urchin]

what's wrong with the whispers of satan secrets

(haven't played just curious)

[full shoal]

I think there are different level of traps. Some are bullshit like pop-up enemies but for example even teleport gives you a sound cue to react to

[true urchin]

fuck popup enemies they're the lowest and most bullshit form of encounter design

[full shoal]

getting instakilled by pop-up cyberdemon

https://tenor.com/view/chefs-kiss-french-chef-perfect-dish-excellent-food-perfection-gif-20341505

[median trellis]

scythe 2 map 27 is kicking my ass rn

[crystal hill]

Weirdly lewd

[true urchin]

yikes

[crystal hill]

Well, 2 of the 5 secret maps are. 32 and I think 34

31 is neat, the other two are skippable

[crystal hill]

Cant disagree, but they dont always ruin my opinion of a wad

Speed of Doom uses them fairly often, but they rarely hurt my enjoyment of the map. I can usually get out of those encounters when they pop up

[bitter shoal]

pop up monsters are also wonky in that you can damage them before they appear too, under the right circumstances

[lethal arch]

Has anybody considered a fix for the floor crushers causing softlocks when you get trapped in classic Doom? They're softlock magnets.

One possible fix I can suggest is that the floor crusher, on the very last tic before it stops, should deal 10,000 damage.

[bitter shoal]

theere already is one, idclip out of it

otherwise it is up to the mapper to be careful about it (John)

[mortal silo]

Should I give btsx2 a playthru today? Ive never played it.

[lethal arch]

I'm not really much of a cheat code user...

However... there's an alternative solution: stacking crusher damage

Yes, you can stack crusher damage

[crystal hill]

I would actually recommend it. They really upped their game compared to the first one

[crystal hill]

I think its perfectly fine to cheat to escape an unintended softlock

[bitter shoal]

if the level cheats against you, cheat back

unless you are doing leaderboard times nobody is going to fault you for doing what is fair

[lethal arch]

I do remember that stacking crusher damage is a thing.

[bitter shoal]

that just falls bafdck to the mapper needs to have good failsafes against the softlock otherwise if it happens to you, you have the tool to escape it

[lethal arch]

That's right, if you have the tools and mapping tricks, you have a perfect failsafe against softlocks. An ingenious mapping trick.

[crystal hill]

if you use it

[bitter shoal]

it sounded like you were suggesting a source port fix or something

[lethal arch]

I was indeed suggesting a fix.

[bitter shoal]

we're not the devs though

[lethal arch]

But if not, that's where the blockmap can be used to our advantage.

[bitter shoal]

you would better off making a suggestion on github for uzdoom or something

[lethal arch]

The crusher sector scans for the blockmaps

[bitter shoal]

otherwise a tool already exists in everyversion to escape softlocks and that is idclip when it happens to you personally

[lethal arch]

I remember this because I watched an analysis video of crushers by the one and only decino

[lethal arch]

But by all means, yes, as a last resort

[bitter shoal]

the other next to last resort is loading a svae or rewinding, and the first resorts are the mapper's ability to prevent the softlock from happening. It is really obvious what is going on when a crusher traps you I would just cheat at that point and take the health loss from being crushed as a punishment.

[oblique plaza]

+fav maps by https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Didy ?!?!?!
I like Beluga, Blow Up and Simga. cool, detailed (if a bit cramped) maps.
Sine Die looks cool too, but the button hunt was too much for me

[oak adder]

I finally beat master levels

[bitter shoal]

grats!

[halcyon willow]

Feel free to re-code the base engine

[true urchin]

feel free to fork the project under a

[solemn socket]

feel free to

[bitter shoal]

feel free or die hard would make a good wad, when you run out of ammo as John McDoomclaine you can drive a car to take out a cacodemon in the sky

[hidden tundra]

Small question. DOOM 64, was it released on the Nintendo 64 hence the name or is that entirely coincidental?

[crystal hill]

it was released on the N64, hence the name

[hidden tundra]

Ouuh ok, thank you

[stiff basalt]

DOOM 65

[bitter shoal]

https://tenor.com/view/you-blew-it-billy-madison-young-adam-sandler-gif-4120265

you were supposed to say DOOM 67!

[stiff basalt]

Yeah I was going to say that but then I remembered…….

[wintry copper]

nah you were supposed to say Doom 69

[mortal silo]

Doom 69 is my personal favorite

[true urchin]

actually it was a ps2 spinoff based on the ps1 port, it was originally planned to release on the n64 (hence the name) but development issues delayed the release until the early 2000s, and then licensing issues kept it from being released on the gamecube

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-senator-armstrong-revengeance-i-made-it-the-fuck-up-gif-25029602

[bitter shoal]

oh, yes it was because it was on Nintendo 64. The name supposedly confused people because it made it sound like a port rather than a new entry in the series.

[exotic ledge]

I finally beat the final two secret levels of Devilution, the final level was super tough to get past the start, but not too tedious after that

Gonna save the four bonus levels for a rainy day, I'm keen to try Revilution now

[wintry copper]

based

Revilution is goated

[lethal arch]

Is it me or do I feel like the Arachnotron in Doom The Dark Ages, with a gatling gun, reminds me of the Mindweaver from Legacy of Rust? It uses a gatling gun instead of a plasma turret, and I think it does fit for that role akin to the Mindweaver.

Both use a gatling gun

Kind of sad that none of the Legacy of Rust monsters have 3D model renditions like the other monsters in the modern games.

[sharp wyvern]

They even share the red eyes

There was a hoax before TDA came out that it was even called the Mindweaver (as a name or in the codex)

Lowk I think they should’ve done that and had the Ballistatron be the Arachnotron

[sharp wyvern]

Teeeechnically you could count Eternal’s Tyrant and TDA’s Arachnotron

[lethal arch]

Sure, Eternal Tyrants are more akin to the classic cyberdemon, which I find really cool, but I get your point.

[sharp wyvern]

Funny how the singular actual classic Cyberdemon design is the only modern one to not be called that

[mortal silo]

TDA arachnotron is the best nuDoom arachnotron cuz it's closest to the doom2 monster

Or maybe more like 64s arachnotron
Not technically hitscan in TDA, but it's got the feel

Dang now I wanna play tda

[sharp wyvern]

idk i feel like tda's arachnotron is closest to a mindweaver

eternal's is pretty accurate to the original since the original was like one of the only non hitscan ones

[true urchin]

why does the bfg work like that anyway

whos idea was this

"yeah so first it shoots out this giant energy ball that looks really impressive and does exactly fuck all for damage, and then AFTER the energy ball hits it shoots out this giant shotgun blast of invisible energy beams that does like 10x the damage of the orb, but also we're never going to tell you it works like that so you just have to sit there and wonder why its so inconsistent until you finally look it up and discover this fuckin rube goldberg machine of a weapon"

[bitter shoal]

programmers that need fast and effective solutions?

[true urchin]

if you want a fast and effective solution just make it do splash damage that doesn't hurt the player boom that's probably way easier

instead of having to program a projectile that activates a whole different attack the moment it impacts an enemy or surface

that must have been a pain in the ass to code in 1993

[bitter shoal]

i mean they probably just had to reuse hitscan code for the tracers

[true urchin]

yeah but you still have to code the tracers to come out after the projectile hits which is a function wholly unique to the bfg

probably

i think anyway

[bitter shoal]

and so... they did that

[true urchin]

im not saying it's a bad design, obviously it works, but it's fuckin weird

where did this idea come from

[bitter shoal]

it came from "we didn't like our original bfg design so let us make something that looks both less dumb, creates the illusion of a single nuke instance, and is easier on the CPU"

[true urchin]

ok i guess it kinda makes sense from that front but why are you creating the illusion of a nuke when you could create an actual nuke

[bitter shoal]

because people back then wouldn't know the difference

[true urchin]

take a rocket projectile, reskin it and jack up the splash radius and damage

[true urchin]

if they wouldn't know the difference why are you doing it the overly complicated way???

[bitter shoal]

because it isn't actually that complicated? lol

[bitter shoal]

both it and the rocket launcher fire a damaging projectile and the main difference is that one runs an aoe check and the other uses line of sight code from the player origin that basically already exists for the shotgun

it probably isn't the exact same since the BFG doesn't have vertical spread but you get the idea

[solemn socket]

cause if they used christmas bfg, nobody would want to play a game that their PC wouldn’t run

cause, it would slow shit down

[bitter shoal]

now I can't tell you why they did this but it does have a lot of gameplay implications. Tracers don't actually pierce enemies which is the most relevant (and probably the best reason they did this, since it allows the RL to be better in situations still), I assume if it were a regular aoe it might have problems if it had to calculate a lot of random geometry (much more than a rocket's small aoe) would normally need to that would soak the damage, possibly force a lot more calculations based on level complexity, and maybe even render it ineffective in a lot of places where a tracer from player origin can hit whatever is seen

[paper sluice]

It was John Romero's idea anyways

[crystal hill]

guy has some pretty crazy ideas

I like the bfg in it's current state, so good on him for that

[full shoal]

I feel like this is pretty accurate. If it was just aoe blast it would go to waste in most instanses and result in underwhelming weapon

[crystal hill]

the bfg is multi purpose, you can use it single target to wipe out a cyber or arch vile, or multi target to wipe out groups of enemies

an AOE blast would be effective for the latter, not the former

[finite crag]

Is no one playing the doom 1+2 port multiplayer anymore?

Well if anyone wants to deathmatch I’m always down

[bitter shoal]

finally beat Tatsurd's gargantuan Map 24 of Plutonia Revisited 2, great map actually. Map 25 was absolutely soul crushing at first but I figured it out.

[paper sluice]

Congratulations!

[bitter shoal]

I'm not done yet I still need to actually complete this wad to see if I can recommend it to people

[crystal hill]

You can recommend the earlier maps

Speaking of, D2INO gets a shaky recommendation from me. A lot of the maps are cool, a lot are kind of not

There's Moudly maps in there, and the three I played so far are all worth it (one is a lil plain, one is great, the third is a right pain to do, but satisfying)

[bitter shoal]

right now my current recommendation is that PRCP2 is very good with the caveat that the difficulty from map 20 onward might be a turn off for some people

it feels much more like its own thing and has a more consistent quality (give or take different author styles and philosophies)

[crystal hill]

I'll look forward to playing it, then

[lethal arch]

That's what I thought!

[twin mortar]

Weren't people suggesting it was actually a Mindweaver when the design was shown off?

[novel coyote]

I have a question regarding console commands for DSDA doom, for some commands, 'mobj_index' parameter is needed. How to find mobj_index of certain mobj (map object for ex. particular monstar)?

[sharp wyvern]

yeah

i remember people on doomworld just literally calling it that like it was confirmed 💀

[pearl tiger]

Doom + Doom II is having progression problems on Switch 2? I haven't been experiencing any issues on them (besides elastic collision, which has little to no impact on progression), they've been running just fine.

[desert tinsel]

I'll play deathmatch with you on odamex

[halcyon willow]

Because it's fun. The way the BFG is coded means that it's use case is very different to the rocket launcher and has led to lots of emergent gameplay like wall bumps. Just making the BFG and bigger splash damage rocket is boring

[crystal hill]

wait, aren't you the guy who really hates using the rocket launcher?

are you seriously advocating for another weapon you wouldn't use?

[twin mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/both-sides-gif-18643069

[true urchin]

im not saying its bad, i like the bfg, im just wondering why they chose to make it work like that

[true urchin]

no. im just saying that would have been the easiest option

[crystal hill]

They probably didnt want just a rocket launcher but big

none of the weapons (except the pistol and chaingun I guess) are similar to each other at all

[desert tinsel]

It was made that way for hardware limitations, the bfg originally fired several projectiles that slowed down computers

the tracers were an invisible compromise

[twin mortar]

And the old BFG was ugly while the new one's projectile is smexy

[halcyon willow]

Hitscan adds power, it has a hard damage cap with a maximum number of tracers, has a cone spray similar to the shotgun (it is in fact most like a shotgun mechanically), delay fire means you have to be more tactical in its usage

Lots of reasons

And as other people have said, performance reasons play a part

[desert tinsel]

id accidently made a weapon that required strategy that no other game had similar to

[halcyon willow]

Welcome to game development, enojy your stay

Necessity is the mother of all invention

[cloud talon]

Does anyone have any recommendations for a good wad that add new weapons and enemies without completely changing how doom looks or plays?

[crystal hill]

Valiant comes to mind first

[full shoal]

Legacy Of Rust

[crystal hill]

New enemies are a lot more common than new weapons

[median trellis]

valiant

[mellow matrix]

most Doomkid WADs make good use of custom weapons/enemies and are typically easy going in terms of difficulty

[halcyon willow]

Supercharge

Best way to experience it first time is through the creator's wad that they released to showcase the mod
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/106058-paradise-v21-multiplayer-release-10112020/

Tango is an extremely talented mapper

Warning: very very spicy on Ultra Violence

[green parrot]

are there any wave mode mods for doom 1 or 2?

[desert tinsel]

you mean fighting monsters in waves that get more difficult?

[green parrot]

yes or just anything like that

[bitter shoal]

BFG was also an easy option most likely, they already had line of sight code and it is called when a single projectile hits regardless. I think you are assuming because it is a bit convoluted to use from a player perspective that it must have been over engineered in code.

[bitter shoal]

I think I played some on Zandronum years ago but I don't remember what they were called.

[crystal hill]

Stronghold: On the Edge of Chaos might suit your needs

as well as the Reelism mods if you like it wacky

[true urchin]

wdym line of sight code is called when a projectile hits

[pearl bay]

For the BFG, I don't think they necessarily wanted a nuke in the first place, I'm pretty sure they wanted a massive spread weapon. Remember that there weren't any of those in the first game. The big ball of energy likely just exists to have a cool shooting effect. The tracers being invisible is a hardware limitation.

[bitter shoal]

like for hitscan weapons, code to make sure there aren't any walls blocking the hit and if there is an enemy to be hit. They just run something similar to that for the tracers in place of an AoE check (which an AoE check is probably more computationally expensive in itself despite sounding more simple conceptually).

To be clear this is basically what I mean:

• You fire a plasma ball -> it hits an enemy and does damage or hits a wall and doesn't -> it does nothing further
• You fire a rocket which is basically a glorified plasma ball-> it hits an enemy and does damage or hits a wall and doesn't-> it runs an aoe check (which has to account for walls btw) for a 2nd damage source that is splash damage
• You fire a BFG ball which is basically a glorified plasma ball -> it hits an enemy and does damage or hits a wall and doesn't -> it runs an evenly distributed set of tracers in a cone shape from the player origin in the direction the ball went for its 2nd damage source

So it isn't reallllly that much more complicated than the RL when it is essentially one step replaced with another

and using code or existing ideas that was probably repurposed for this moment

[full shoal]

Finished scythes hell on earth and got to see a glimpse of Fire and Ice. This might be where my saveless dooming stops

[bitter shoal]

best of luck, this is where Scythe takes off the kid gloves

[full shoal]

I'm not sure if it felt any fun to be honest :D Hard just for the sake of being hard. The previous slaughter maps in Scythe were quite fun

[crystal hill]

Scythe really goes full bullshit on you on map 30

Havent ever beaten it, dont feel inclined to

If I ever feel like bashing my head against a wall to try and beat a map, it's gonna be the Mucus Flow

[bitter shoal]

Also I was gonna mention this but forgot because I keep having to explain the BFG and why they choose to make it the way it was

but PRCP2 map 26 was nice and short, kind of like a scythe map actually good stuff

and starting PRCP2 map 27 and I need to write an angry letter about how it is called Rules of Nature and choose not to use it as the song

map 27 seems pretty good at the start though and looks nice too, I think I can safely say that I can recommend this wad since if map 28-30 and the secret maps are somehow terrible it probably isn't the end of the world at this point

[pearl bay]

https://tenor.com/view/rules-of-nature-my-reaction-to-that-information-gif-25667526

[bitter shoal]

Yes, exactly

[woven swallow]

Yes, it's called hordamax

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Hordamex

[sharp wyvern]

54 maps woa

[crystal hill]

a lot of 2020s wads have a comical amount of maps

[hollow phoenix]

Is there a newer version of Moon doom available? I miss it quite a bit.

[wintry copper]

damn 54 maps

Odamex players eating well

[desert tinsel]

It’s a great project

And it’s fun with friends! Plenty of servers host it

[crystal hill]

I've played and loved Going Down plenty in the past, but replaying it, particularly after some WADs of, uh, questionable quality, is making me fall even deeper in love with this thing

[halcyon willow]

That was a heap of fun to make

[shy night]

In order to run gz doom do I need to doom files from steam or gog?

[desert tinsel]

either will work

steam gog and most classic doom CDs have doom 2 version 1.9 which doom 2 wads and source ports are compatible with

[stiff basalt]

I find it funny how the gog version of final doom has the patched version

[shy night]

With gz doom how much replayability does doom have? I assume lots since there are lots of good mods

[desert tinsel]

Doom is cheap and is probably the most modded game in history

[shy night]

Yeah it's on sale for 4 bucks on gog

And that for a game with practically infinitely replayability is a steal

[cursive swallow]

so true

especially the classic dooms

simply a work of art with brutal doom too

[finite crag]

Got a deathmatch set up if anyone wants to join in just me atm
It’s on the doom 1+2 ver

[true urchin]

if you told me i could only ever play one game for the rest of my life doom would be a strong contender

-# mainly bc there's hundreds if not thousands of games built on doom alone

[finite crag]

The only two set of games you need is baldurs gate series and doom
I could go happy knowing I put my time in those for the rest of my life

[true urchin]

someone made a fuckin mario kart clone off the doom engine you can play whatever the fuck you want off of this game

[finite crag]

I saw a full sonic clone too it was crazy what you can do with this game

[true urchin]

there's probably a minecraft demake that runs off the doom engine

"yeah but does it have uhhhh a dating sim lmao as if" oh you sweet summer child https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/megawads/dwds

of course it doesn't embed hang on

i dont have image perms whatever click on the link and find out why dont you

[bitter shoal]

that is probably sonic robo blast I think it is called, uses an old ZDoOM branch that is modified into being its own thing. Also has a sonic kart racer spin off that I actulaly played and was quite nice

... I just realized that sonic kart fangame is the DOOM kart people meme about

i remember i think it was tarnsman streaming a DOOM wad with sonic gameplay elements, visual assets, and boss fights, basically an earlier attempt at a golden souls like thing

[solemn socket]

odamex players: https://tenor.com/view/liffey-gif-8293544

[mighty walrus]

Question: #screenshots message

[stiff basalt]

Dunno how to explain it but you have to shoot a switch from across the room after you teleport from the portal in the middle

https://youtu.be/xQCwYZG_Y2c?si=4c17u_xal6ptE-Dx

0:30

You have to do it on both sides cuz there's also an invulnerability sphere you can use for the final fight

[mighty walrus]

ty:)

[woven swallow]

yes

that's like saying "do i need fuel for my car to run?"....

[silver prawn]

didnt even know shooting a switch was a thing, so nice to know for future reference

[twin mortar]

It is, both in DOOM 64 and DOOM II

[sharp wyvern]

and in SIGIL 🤓

[bitter shoal]

SIGIL is a master class in teaching the player a new mechanic

I felt attacked every time I saw Vytaan try to shoot wha tis now known as a "SIGIL eye" because I do it too

[sharp wyvern]

I like that Sigil did something with the Evil Eyes cause me and a lot of other people I know who played Doom said they felt like the eyes were meant to do something special lol

[bitter shoal]

whew PRCP2 map 27 takes some work I definitely need a break

[crystal hill]

See, thats why Doom feels like a cheat answer for that question

Unless you exclude all mods and wads

[crystal hill]

You must mean Super Sonic Doom. Its not horrible, especially for its time, but the levels are horribly open for what it is, and the gameplay isnt changed significantly like Golden Souls' is

Maaaybe worth trying as a novelty, but thats all

[bitter shoal]

I figure "tarnsman played it" is enough of a caution tape but yeah it is one Sonic related thing on there out of several

[crystal hill]

Does he have a reputation for playing garbo?

[bitter shoal]

yeah he played all of Maximum DOOM

[crystal hill]

I'm not in the Doom content creator ecosystem. Doom is one of those games that is infinitely more fun to play than watch

Even funny pumpkin man

I only watch doom being played when its for analysis or when I need a visual guide on how to beat something

[bitter shoal]

He was a fun streamer to listen to but in hindsight his map criticisms should probably be taken with a grain of salt since he expressed them so definitively

[crystal hill]

I know he's made some maps, but I cant remember which ones

I always confuse him and alfonzo for some reason

[bitter shoal]

he worked with others on BTSX episodes. He did interact with Alfonzo a lot. He also worked on Adventures of Square IIRC

He sometimes streamed his own project but I never knew what it was called

It was touhou inspired

He doesn't stream anymore, don't know if he still makes fun of stuff that happens on DOOM World

[crystal hill]

Yeah, uh, I dont like any of those lol

BTSX2 had a decent start, but shit the bed with longer, more open, more sloggy maps near the end

[crystal hill]

Tarnsman's Projectile Hell. On the to play list because it got a cacoward of some kins

[median cloud]

Wonder what this years cacowards will entail

Find it hard to keep up to date with all big releases made in a year and somewhat rely on cacowards to tell me whats good and what isnt

[crystal hill]

At least in the 2010s, theres been a bunch of gems each year, a few stinkers, and a whole lot of meh

Hope this year's shrinks the scope a bit. Theres way too much stuff being given a spot on the 'wards

[median cloud]

I think most cacowards are pretty decent, i'll look through 2024 big nominations

D2INO, Eviternity 2, Simulacrum and Pirate Doom 2 are pretty cool

I think in terms of Doom the quality actually keeps getting better with years, kinda amazed how

[crystal hill]

I wonder

Theres almost always going to be great stuff in the cacowards. Hard for there not to be, considering how much stuff is in there

But I wonder, comparing 2024 to 2009, what is the quality to number of wads ratio?

[bitter shoal]

wads taht age more poorly are probably ones that are on there because they were well constructed maps but the gameplay isn't as refined

[true urchin]

that's like saying if you pick minecraft you aren't allowed to use mods or addons

[crystal hill]

2002 was a year of 10 wads. One of them was alien vendetta, which singlehandedly raises that year to new heights

[crystal hill]

This is more than fair

[true urchin]

the code for the game is still there you're just putting shit on top of it

[crystal hill]

Which isnt the base game

[true urchin]

its still doom at heart

[crystal hill]

Minecraft isnt the best comparison. It has way more replayability at base than Doom does

[crystal hill]

So what?

[true urchin]

nah i could replay doom more than minecraft

[crystal hill]

Its not Doom. Not officially.

[true urchin]

mc is fucking boring

[bitter shoal]

brb gonna watch videos instea dof this argument

[crystal hill]

Thats your problem, I think

[true urchin]

you're rules lawyering this shit

why

[crystal hill]

You can get a lot of shit done in MC if you're creative at all

Doom is a linear experience

A good one, but it will get repetitive way quicker

[crystal hill]

Because counting mods disadvantages a lot of games without good modding scenes

[true urchin]

skill issue

[crystal hill]

I want to judge games on their own merits

[true urchin]

pick a better game then

[crystal hill]

Okay, so this argument is worthless then

Ta ta

[true urchin]

a game's moddability IS a merit

a damn important one in my opinion

[median cloud]

I think the quality increased, maybe not relative to the time period but overall it definitely did

Like Alien Vendetta is good but current day wads are miles better

AV was good for its time

[crystal hill]

Ehhh

I think, unlike most things from the first 10 years of doom, it still holds up

[median cloud]

I might've overplayed it, it's decent but I think newer wads blow it out of the water

I think Eviternity is miles better and more advanced

[crystal hill]

From 2002 to 2014, I have played 3 (I guess now 4) wads I would consider better

And I have played stuff post 2014 that is also better

However, alien vendetta is better than most wads I have played, before or since

[icy umbra]

U are correct however when talking about THE GAME IT SELF it is not one to care about

[crystal hill]

I still need to play that one. I dont think being more advanced necessarily makes a wad better though

Or else Mock 2 would have swept the 2003 cacowards

[median cloud]

That's true and I think a more egregious example is 90's wads

Classics like Alien Vendetta, Kama Sutra, Speed of Doom are still fun to play

But in terms of raw mapping accomplishments I feel like a lot of newer maps got heights those old wads never reached

[crystal hill]

Kama Sutra holds up a lot worse than the other two imo

[median cloud]

Even gameplay wise, combat puzzles have evolved a lot over time as well

But pure enjoyment I think the classics are still fun

[median cloud]

It's 100% my favorite of the 3 aha

[crystal hill]

It has moments of brilliance, but it is dragged down by a lot of crap maps (thanks, method)

[median cloud]

I like the HR aesthetic without the horrible gameplay

[crystal hill]

Gusta only truly came into his own in Plut 2

[median cloud]

Hmm I might agree with this as well

[crystal hill]

I still hold Alien Vendetta in high regard, but Speed of Doom is a little higher

[median cloud]

I might've just overplayed them, back when I played a lot of co-op people would run AV on a daily basis

[crystal hill]

Perhaps, but evolution isnt strictly better. That being said, I havent played many newer 2020 and onward wads

[crystal hill]

Its possible, but I feel that overplaying something may just make the heart grow fonder

[median cloud]

It can be difficult to measure since the feeling you get from a wad is highly subjective. I guess I'm just more amazed by how people keep finding new things to implement with the limited Doom palette

[crystal hill]

I've played the tits off of Plut 2, Going Down (the first third, I was real bad at the game once lol) and the Golden Souls duology. I love them all

[median cloud]

Depends on how nostalgic I feel :p

[crystal hill]

I tend to focus on the gameplay more than visuals, sounds, etc. For better or worse

But even there, I think Alien Vendetta is remarkably solid for 2002. Stuff like BTSX has a lot of flaws I dont really see in AV

Though its still the worst wad I would put in my 2nd of 3 quality tiers, still very very good and better than 99% of what I have played

[median cloud]

What are your top wads then? Going down, plut 2, golden souls?

Also somewhat surprised you like golden souls since you seem to have an anti-modding mentality, or atleast it came off that way

[crystal hill]

I'm anti gameplay mod. Golden Souls is a total conversion, meaning it has maps and level design and enemies all suited to the different gameplay

That being said, I am a little iffy on calling it a Doom wad, because of how fundamentally different it is

[bitter shoal]

it is a wad file you load into doom so...

[crystal hill]

I'll give you my full two highest tiers, as I think they are now

Golden Souls 2
Auger Zenith
Golden Souls Remastered
Going Down
Overboard
Plutonia 2
Golden Souls (original)
ZDoom Community Mapping Project Take 2
Speed of Doom
Alien Vendetta

[crystal hill]

Sure, but its so unlike something like Aliem Vendetta or Eviternity that I wonder how much it counts

[bitter shoal]

It has to count on a technical level

aka you might need to use different terminology to make the point

[crystal hill]

Basically

Stuff like total chaos isnt what people think when you say "a doom wad'

[median cloud]

Augur Zenith is a good example of what I mean with how wads progressed

That wad looks incredible

[crystal hill]

And its bloody limit removing

I could not believe it when I first saw it

Its just pure fun the whole way through. A little too easy, especially for my modern standards, but I dont care

[median cloud]

the first wad I can think of using those futuristic light effects has to be deus vult 2

[bitter shoal]

I think you can be a .wad file for the DOOM engine but still be a standalone game, so many games use engines that belong to a parent engine (like some Source games or games using Unreal engine even though they literally aren't Unreal)

[median cloud]

I've yet to really play through it but it looks incredible

u saying it's a casual ride might make me go play it tho haha

[bitter shoal]

years ago I would have been against easier wads because the gaming climate was starved for harder stuff at one point but nowadays since harder stuff is accessible again especially among DOOM maps I think easier stuff can be a nice change of pace

[crystal hill]

I cant recommend it enough

[crystal hill]

Its a little tougher than plutonia, but its a lot shorter

[bitter shoal]

unless it is easy in a boring way like TNT or something

[crystal hill]

The problem is, I've gotten a lot better as a player

[median cloud]

You should try TNT Revilution some time

[crystal hill]

A map like trip switch kicked my ass years ago

Now? I beat it in half an hour this morning

Going Down seems to be my goldilocks zone for difficulty now. Not too easy, not too tough

[bitter shoal]

easier might be relative then

but you get the idea, you don't want to overfatigue yourself

[crystal hill]

I have. It was pretty good, though I dont remember much from it

[crystal hill]

Oh for sure. These middle 2010s are filled with ribbicks maps, and I just cnanot be fucked

I beat the first two and secret maps of swim with the whales saveless, and map 3 with saves. I have nothing left to prove

[crystal hill]

Its very possible I replay it and think its not as good as I remembered it

[wintry copper]

hah

[wintry copper]

yeah I'm terrified of playing anything he or Dannebubinga has made lmfao

[crystal hill]

I'm going to play sunlust soon. I hear great things, but I may need to stick it on hmp after some maps

I also enjoyed it well enough, the 16 or 17 maps I played before rage quitting

[pine violet]

I heard some of the old models used for Doom had to get their skin replaced due to deterioration

https://doomwiki.org/w/images/e/e6/Revenant_model.jpg

Would be cool if they made sprites of the new skins as a modders resource or something as some are noticeably different

[bitter shoal]

that is basically the existing revenant but without the armor piece, Junkfood has something like that but brown and not red

[shy night]

I really want to play vanilla before I mod doom. After I compete the games for the first time though what are some fun mods for a beginner.

[woven swallow]

Scythe
Boomer beyond vanilla
Back to Saturn x
Doom zero

[desert tinsel]

Dwango5 deathmatch on Odamex rn

[urban trench]

Back to Saturn X is a good recommendation. It start quite basic but becomes awesome later on.

[silver prawn]

anyone here play on xbox 1 or xbox series s/x? i wanna have at least one friend that also plays doom; mainly so they could join a party and we just chill while blasting demons to hell

if so plz dm me:3

[pine violet]

If you install the source port UZDoom then you can try out Brutal Doom

I also like the custom maps Spectacle Creep

[shy night]

Wait so is uzdoom and gz the only source ports?

[pine violet]

There's way more

But to my knowledge Brutal only works on the ZDoom family of ports

Same for Spectacle Creep I think

If you just want the original dos version on windows try Chocolate Doom

[shy night]

How do source ports work exactly? Can I have multiple or can I only use 1 at a time

[pine violet]

You can have multiple

It's basically a modified version of the source code of the original dos exe (well actually most are modified from the Linux version which is the one that was made open source in 1997)

So all you need to run a Doom source port is the required files and the iwad

An iwad being a file that has the game's assets

[twin mortar]

Or for maximum accuracy DOSBox

[pine violet]

Well that's emulation at that point

[shy night]

So I can just store the source ports on my computer then

[pine violet]

Yes

[twin mortar]

So? Still DOOM

[little oar]

You can use a program called ZDL to help organize them all too

[pine violet]

True

[twin mortar]

And DOSBox makes you feel smart

[pine violet]

Yeah you can use it to load mods in a specific order

[little oar]

I throw all the source ports into a vaguely named "DOOM stuffs" folder and use ZDL to actually open them

Beats dragging everything to the port exe

[pine violet]

I just put ZDL in my UZDoom folder cause I'm lazy

[twin mortar]

Before Heretic + Hexen got remastered I played them with a source port, Crispy DOOM, and that's one I'd recommend for anyone looking for vanilla authenticity with some modern touchups

[pine violet]

I use UZDoom for how easy it is to mod and the ability to look up and down