classic-doom

[opal breach]

When doomguy take the portal, maybe he didn't return to earth immediately, so it can be that E4 talk about something happened before he returns finally to earth

[thorn jungle]

that's a plausible one at best

[sharp wyvern]

except now it's like

Doomguy on Phobos Base -> Doomguy on Deimos Base -> Doomguy in Hell -> Doomguy on Earth kinda after going through the gateway after killing the spiderdemon -> Doomguy in the deep reaches of Hell after being teleported there by the IoS -> Doomguy still in Hell after Satan sends him further down

and then Doom II happens 😭

until of course E7M1 releases when he's on Earth again and then E8M1 when he's back in Hell and then E9M1 when he's back on Earth and

i do love the fact that they keep delaying Doom II by adding new episodes to Doom 1 but they all have to end implying that Doom II is next so it's just the same ending every time

[finite crag]

sigil lore is funny

[sharp wyvern]

Episode 3: "You wonder what's been happening on Earth while you were battling evil unleashed."
Episode 4: "as a nation of demons run amok among our cities. Next stop, Hell on Earth!"
Episode 5: "You're ready to face the more advanced demons that were sent to Earth."
Episode 6: "His only option is to flood Earth with demons and hope you go down fighting."

[finite crag]

but i dont think its canon

[thorn jungle]

SIGIL isn't canon ᵃᵃᵃᵃ

[sharp wyvern]

cringe

[sharp wyvern]

cringe

[finite crag]

i dont believe you

[sharp wyvern]

like i say with most doom canonicity related things "Why not?"

[thorn jungle]

what's the lore of SIGIL?

[sharp wyvern]

if it's officially released then like why not

[finite crag]

doomguy gets sent to hell again and again and again

[sharp wyvern]

tldr after E4M8 the icon of sin glitches the teleport to Earth and Doomguy gets sent to Hell again and he has to fight his way out to get back to Earth in time for Doom II

or i guess Hellion now

so it's Doom -> Thy Flesh Consumed -> Sigil -> Sigil II -> Hellion -> Doom II

[mighty star]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-how-many-times-do-we-need-to-teach-you-old-man-slow-thick-gif-12272188

[thorn jungle]

there's a SIGIL II??

[finite crag]

sigil story in a nutshell

[thorn jungle]

is sigil worth playing?

[finite crag]

for the gameplay?
yeah

[mighty star]

Yes

[sharp wyvern]

why would you play any part of classic doom for anything else

[mighty star]

become Romero's bitch

[sharp wyvern]

yeah

it came out in 2023 but it got added to the main menu of doom + doom ii like this week

[sharp wyvern]

Sigil definitely it has great levels, Sigil II i liked less but tbh it's still pretty fun

[finite crag]

idk some people will only play doom games that are “canon”

[sharp wyvern]

(they're all canon :P)

[finite crag]

even doom 3?

[sharp wyvern]

sure

[thorn jungle]

i'm not sure about the canonicity about Final Doom, but i will still play it

[thorn jungle]

Doom 3 is fucken awesome

[sharp wyvern]

i just dont get why youd call a doom game "non canon"

other than Doom 3 there's kind of not really any reason to not think they are...?

doom was never about the story but to me that means it makes less sense to just randomly exclude things

[finite crag]

i really dont care about canon

[sharp wyvern]

me neither but that to me just encourages me to think it is all is yk

like all the games (other than doom 3) act like they're following on from another "canon" game so... why not?

[thorn jungle]

doom may not have primarily been about the story, but it doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a good one

[sharp wyvern]

which is why i dislike eternal/tag because they're the most story focused yet have the worst one

in my mind it goes something like
Doom (+ TFC, Sigil, Sigil II) -> Doom II -> NRFTL -> Master Levels -> Final Doom -> Legacy of Rust -> Doom 64 (+ Lost Levels) -> The Dark Ages -> Doom 3 (+ Lost Mission) -> Doom Resurrection -> Doom RPG -> Doom II RPG -> Resurrection of Evil -> Doom 2016 (+ VFR) -> Doom Eternal -> The Ancient Gods

(i left out mighty doom cause like idk where you'd put it)

[thorn jungle]

Mighty Doom doesn't have a story (i think so i never played it)

[hot owl]

Sigil isn't canon. Wasn't it made by Romero?

[thorn jungle]

it was Romero's

[sharp wyvern]

for mighty doom i just headcanon it's the slayer messing around with his toys lol

[sharp wyvern]

Romero made it... why isn't it canon?

Like what reason is there for it not to be

[hot owl]

Because he doesn't work at id Software.

Not anymore.

[thorn jungle]

did he quit by the time Sigil was released?

[sharp wyvern]

and now Sigil is on the main menu of Doom and Doom II

[hot owl]

Romero left id Software in 1996

[sharp wyvern]

Doom 64 wasn't made by ID mind you

[finite crag]

but its hugo martin's favorite classic doom game lol

[hot owl]

Yes, but it's been made canon by id software.

[sharp wyvern]

And Sigil and Sigil II have now been put on the main menu of DOOM + DOOM II and are no longer mods

[thorn jungle]

story wise

[hot owl]

Sigil is directly said to be unofficial.

[sharp wyvern]

except now it is official

nintendo eshop images are banned lol

[thorn jungle]

get vega'd

[sharp wyvern]

https://doomwiki.org/w/images/7/79/DoomplusDoomII_inital.jpg

anyway

[hot owl]

It's supported by bethesda. So are other mods.

[sharp wyvern]

It is not in the "mod" category

it is on the main menu with the expansions published by ID

[hot owl]

But it wasn't published by id Software.

It was published by Romero games

[sharp wyvern]

it is an official doom release now

[sharp wyvern]

Doom 64 was not published by ID

[hot owl]

It's not official. It's a sponsored megawad at most.

[sharp wyvern]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642730879852085281/1362746047838949437/image.png?ex=680383a8&is=68023228&hm=6534108b745ebf3b13392688eb4179cfc3b6f6b8c17879fe6d3400053c462314&

patch notes btw

[hot owl]

That deadass doesn't mean anything.

It's officially included. Not officially added to the lore.

[sharp wyvern]

"it's not official"

"sigil ii is now official part of the doom + doom ii package"
"that deadass doesn't mean anything"
lol?

[hot owl]

Romero, has no say on what the lore is.

[thorn jungle]

it was in the package, but storywise, it doesn't count

(i'll leave this to the people who actually know what they're talking about)

[sharp wyvern]

you were arguing it couldn't be canon because it wasn't published by ID directly

but now it is

[hot owl]

@finite crag apologies for the ping, figured you'd know what to say about this. Is the expansions on doom 1+2's screens canon?

[sharp wyvern]

this would be a purely subjective opinion lol

[hot owl]

what.

I'm just getting a second opinion dawg 💀

[sharp wyvern]

m0no doesn't write the Doom lore either you're just asking for another person's opinion

[hot owl]

No but he knows a fuck more than most.

[sharp wyvern]

Sigil doesn't contradict anything outside of Doom Guy going to Doom II after Thy Flesh Consumed

and Thy Flesh Consumed already contradicted Doom GUy going to Doom II after Inferno

[hot owl]

It's not made, by id software.

[sharp wyvern]

neither was Doom 64

and that isn't a lore contradiction so

[hot owl]

Doom 64 has been made canon by id software.

[sharp wyvern]

i asked for a lore contradiction btw

sigil is now officially part of the doom + doom ii package

[hot owl]

It's doom it is the word contradiction

[sharp wyvern]

is there a reason why sigil can't be canon

keyword can't be, is there anything in sigil that goes against established lore

doomguy is sent to earth by the end of Sigil and Sigil II so Doom II still happens after

[hot owl]

Yes. Because it was not approved, hasn't been approved, wasn't written, wasn't developed or published by someone at id software. It was made by Romero. A man who hasn't been apart of id software since the late 90s.

[sharp wyvern]

Doom 64 wasn't written, wasn't developed or published by someone at id software

This isn't a thing that goes against established lore btw

[hot owl]

No, but it's been approved.

It doesn't matter for the lore.

[sharp wyvern]

and Sigil and Sigil II have now been included as expansions for the original Doom

[hot owl]

It's essentially a fan game.

[sharp wyvern]

a fan game which is now an official expansion for Doom

[hot owl]

It's like saying the columbine mod is canon because it doesn't have any contradictions

[sharp wyvern]

is the columbine mod on the main menu of Doom?

horrible comparison

[thorn jungle]

eeeuuughhhhhh...

[sharp wyvern]

idk why you brought that up that's pretty icky

[thorn jungle]

that left a bad taste in my stomach

[hot owl]

"Doom 64 was developed from 1994 by Midway Studios San Diego under supervision of id Software."

So it was under id software's supervision.

[sharp wyvern]

if Sigil isn't canon: Doom Guy goes to Doom II after fighting his way out of Hell
if Sigil is canon: Doom Guy goes to Doom II after fighting his way out of Hell

[hot owl]

(Wikipedia, and I'll get the interview link)

[sharp wyvern]

the only difference is that one of these interpretations lets the now official episode 5 of Doom 1 be canon

basically you're arguing that Episode 5 of Doom shouldn't be canon because it wasn't originally officially published even though now it is

there is no other reason to argue against it

therefore this conversation sucks because i am debating with someone whose take is "i dont want it to be"

[hot owl]

It's not approved by the current writing team of id software.

[sharp wyvern]

What fucking writing in Sigil changes anything about the lore

[hot owl]

Brb ima ask around in the Romero games discord.

[sharp wyvern]

there's like two paragraphs and its "you get sent to hell by baphomet" and "you go to earth"

[thorn jungle]

is Romero a member there?

[hot owl]

He's a member here lmao

[sharp wyvern]

what part of this needs to be approved

what part of this changes anything

"Ermm it calls the Icon of Sin Baphomet" ID already did that in the 90s

[thorn jungle]

ping him, i dare you.

ⁿᵒ ᵈᵒⁿᵗ ᵃᶜᵗᵘᵃˡˡʸ

[sharp wyvern]

final doom's manual

[hot owl]

id rather email the fucker

Actually.

Thats what I should do.

[sharp wyvern]

you're /j right

otherwise i'd say you're getting way too heated over this

[thorn jungle]

as we know, Decino gets quick responses from Romero

[finite crag]

ask decino if he could ask romero if sigil is canon

[hot owl]

Politely who tf is decino

[thorn jungle]

the pumpkin man who makes yellow thumbnailed classic doom analysis videos

[hot owl]

I'm not into the doomtube side so I don't know this shit

I didn't even know hoardmode until recently 💀

[finite crag]

horse mode

[thorn jungle]

he knows a lot about the ins and outs of classic doom

[sharp wyvern]

As far as I can tell there is no argument for Sigil being not canon other than "it wasn't officially released by ID originally"
There is not anything in Sigil that contradicts the current lore and there's not anything in Sigil that can be referenced other than if Doomguy randomly said "oh yeah remember when the IoS sent me to hell lol"

[hot owl]

Eh anyways

[sharp wyvern]

Sigil being canon or not is basically entirely a whatever debate so it is weird to be staunchly "no it can't be canon" when it doesn't actually affect anything

nothing in the story changes if it is or isn't other than doom's episode 5 and 6 being canon or not

[hot owl]

I fucking hate doom 2/j

[sharp wyvern]

hes right you know

mid af game

[finite crag]

if sigil is in fact canon, it just convolute classic doom story even more

[hot owl]

/j broski </3

[sharp wyvern]

doom is already an incredibly convoluted story

you now have to assume that multiple earths is 100% canon despite not being explicitly stated anywhere

[thorn jungle]

i'm not familiar with discord terminologies... what does /j mean

is it joke?

[sharp wyvern]

sigil being canon is only convoluted in that he gets sent to hell again but then the expansions already state he gets sent to earth again so it's not like they don't already fix themselves

[finite crag]

sigil happens in daikatana canon

[sharp wyvern]

(im /j too)

[finite crag]

doomguy gets sent to hell again three times in a row and then he arrives on earth?

[sharp wyvern]

again three times in a row?

it's sent to Hell in episode 3, sent back to hell in episode 5
thats it

[finite crag]

episode 4 then sigil then sigil 2

[sharp wyvern]

i think you're supposed to assume sigil 2 just follows from sigil 1 and you weren't back on earth yet

sigil 1's ending never says you're back on earth yet after all

but yeah idk i just think it's weird to call any official part of doom non canon

because every game has weird contradictions or doesn't acknowledge a game

Doom 64 originally just didn't mention Doom II whatsoever

[finite crag]

At that pace there wont be anyone left on earth to save

[sharp wyvern]

until the 2020 rerelease Doom II just wasn't referenced at all in Doom 64

and in the 2020 rerelease it is only referenced via the steam description saying 64 is after II

[sharp wyvern]

i mean tbf 😭 that's kind of the case in doom ii too

lots of dead people

doomguy was pretty late to the invasion in eternal too

too busy rubbing against every wall in case theres a secret ig

[finite crag]

lol

[sharp wyvern]

man legacy of rust is awesome ngl

it might sneak ahead of Doom 1 in terms of gameplay

[wicked goblet]

I have yet to beat any of the sigils

[finite crag]

it would be almost perfect if it wasnt for the burner

[wicked goblet]

get sidetracked with other episodes

[sharp wyvern]

i kinda like the incinerator

the hitbox for the flames kinda sucks tho

[sharp wyvern]

sigil 1 you gotta check out sometime it's awesome

[finite crag]

yeah the incinerator*
sorry

[sharp wyvern]

sigil 2 is more if you just want to i guess

idk i didnt like sigil 2 as much that might just be me

[mighty star]

Same, I remember missing the plasma rifle while playing it

[sharp wyvern]

calamity blade is so satisfying

[finite crag]

that first map on sigil 2 is a pain

[hot owl]

Yup, /j is joke, /hj is half joke, /srs is serious, /s is sarcastic, /lh is light hearted and uh.... I don't use any others.

[wicked goblet]

plutonia is surprisingly burning me less going through it again after a pretty long time

[thorn jungle]

ohhh.... the more you know

thanks btw

[sharp wyvern]

plutonia is kinda fun ngl

or at least when i die in plutonia i dont feel like it is complete bullshit unlike tnt

[wicked goblet]

couple hundred hours of quake 1 dealing with Vore missiles, Revenants aren't nothing

tnt is a slog to get through

[mighty star]

Oh god the vores

unfortunate name convention

[pine violet]

That's what the source code release is called if I remember correctly

[hot owl]

They're called tone indicators, I use em bcs my autistic ass can't tell a joke from a insult 💀

[thorn jungle]

when i can't distinguish the two, i say "excuse me?"

[wicked goblet]

if you get good at q1s movement you can clear out whole rooms and still have like 2 missiles tracking you after the revenant homing missile barely hit you way easier to get it to hit a demon than getting behind cover like I used to

[thorn jungle]

and they're guaranteed to elaborate

[mighty star]

vore missile weaving can be fun especially in hectic fights

[hot owl]

That works too 😭

[wicked goblet]

"shalrath" to dodge easy jokes and to look extra nerdy

nightmare mode in the elderworld is great for that

[finite crag]

wish they didnt alter the nightmare difficulty on nightdive rerelease

[mighty star]

i actually liked episode 4 of quake, Sandy's level feels the most lovecraftian

fuck the spawns tho

[wicked goblet]

I like how brutal it is now, I think the original makes the game easier and borks the level design with enemies telefragging each other too often like in the elevator before the rune in the spritworld

fast monsters doesn't work the same in quake like it does in doom

[finite crag]

idk i still think ogres spamming their grenades is harder than how they act normally

[mighty star]

Fast monsters just become mobile turrets, it’s a bit easier to kill them when they’re stationary

[wicked goblet]

it depends on the situation, without their chainsaw they become pushovers unless they're in an area where the grenades can bounce around correctly

it would be nice for them to add an update to have nightmare as 2 sperate modes

nightmareclassic/nightmare+

[finite crag]

their nightmare mode is almost a copy of the copper mod

nvm it just copies the 50 hp cap

[mighty star]

Overdark Underbright + Copper is a fun time

[wicked goblet]

those enforcers though

[mighty star]

FREEZE PEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEW

[wicked goblet]

turns them into real chaingunners

somehow a 3d projectile is worse than hit scan

I'll take a plutonia firing squad than a more than 5 enforcers on a high ledges above me

[wicked goblet]

I think the 50 hp cap is cool it really tests your powerup management skills and map knowledge

[mighty star]

nightmare make da shambler scary

[wicked goblet]

enemies can only be stunned every 30 seconds

just evil

honestly if you want to get better at doom definitely spend some time in quake heavily recommend this method

[mighty star]

i'm split between DOOM and Quake for my favourite FPS game, Doom has a better enemy roster and can handle several enemies on screen but I like the verticality and atmosphere of Quake

[wicked goblet]

there's a different kind of focus in quake compared to doom, its hard to explain but its something you feel when playing both

quake is a bit more methodical and the atmosphere enhances that in my experience

petersons levels introduced that initially in doom compared to John romeros fast paced linear shooting galleries

[mighty star]

It’s weird that I don’t like Petersen’s Doom 2 levels yet I like his Quake ones

Trent Reznor’s dark ambient tracks are killer though. It’s a shame he didn’t stay on for Doom 3, another big problem I have with that game is the music mostly sucks (except for the main menu and intro theme)

[sharp wyvern]

Reznor leaving Doom 3 was the prelude to Mick's treatment during Eternal

it was the warning we did not heed

that ID treats their composers like garbage

[wicked goblet]

Sandy's doom levels is an acquired taste to learn to appreciate, nowadays I really like his out of the box ideas. quakes medium allowed that approach to level design to shine more

[sharp wyvern]

doom 3 has good music :(

[wicked goblet]

doom 3 introduced me to Tool lmao

[sharp wyvern]

some of his doom levels suckkk but also when they're bangers they are BANGERS like

a lot of my favourites

[mighty star]

Hopefully finishing move aren’t the next victims

[finite crag]

how dare you?
super turbo turkey puncher 3 music is a masterpiece

[sharp wyvern]

given they're a team i would HOPE they've worked out something better

but given trent mick levy i doubt it lol

[mighty star]

I know
Bannable offence to insult the greatness that is Super Turbo Turkey Puncher 3

[wicked goblet]

alot of his levels that are regarded as bad ive learned to love because I can see his vision with them
Limbo and fortress of mystery especially

[mighty star]

Fortress of Mystery is fun to pistol start

[sharp wyvern]

i love fortress of mystery icl

[mighty star]

Getting the cacos and barons to infight

[mighty star]

David Levy got mistreated too?

[wicked goblet]

its a fun little break when you get them all to infight and you get really good loot for the next level

[sharp wyvern]

ID won't let him have a soundtrack release

he's currently having to just put it up for free on youtube now because they refuse to let him put it on spotify or anything

"Be sure to check out this track—and the rest of The Ancient Gods soundtrack—which, of course, you can’t stream or buy anywhere. 💀🪦" description of his soundtrack uploads to youtube 😭

[sharp wyvern]

im pretty sure e2m9 was the first level i came out of with 200% hp 200% armour and 100%'d objectives lol

[wicked goblet]

yeah for sure

much more fun level when you don't just kill all the enemies yourself

when it comes to id softwares level design, levels made by one person (usually) its best to approach it like DnD where you have a dungeon master and you have to play by their rules in order to do well

[finite crag]

Why does the opening to Plutonia's Neurosphere feel like ragebait

You step into the level and you already get it from every side

Oh yeah I already achieved my goal of beating half of Plutonia's levels UV saveless. I won't lie, my opinion on Plutonia has increased

NME was surprisingly fun, Neurosphere (outside of its opening) was no problem

I used to despise The Omen but... eh. I can accept it now. Granted, I started the level with 600 BFG ammo lol

Still, lots of GOTCHAs, even on NME lol

People call em traps, I call em gotchas

And yeah, Quake is one of my favorite FPS games for sure. I beat it on Nightmare recently, tho Nightdive nightmare. Lowkey wish I could try out Classic Quake with its classic nightmare

[finite crag]

I don't like either of those much lol. Quake is fantastic but Episode 4 I'm not very hot on

And his DOOM 2 levels... eh. Not a big fan myself, and I think DOOM 2 is great btw.

[mighty star]

Fair

[finite crag]

I do wanna say that I have not beaten all Quake expansions and have no desire to play it all either. Dunno why but Quake 1 just set the bar so high

[wicked goblet]

quakes expansions take a bit to get used to with the different designers

[mighty star]

Scourge of Armagon, Dimension of the Past and Dimension of the Machine are all really good

[finite crag]

I remember when I played Dissolution, thinking 'dafuq happened to the music'

[mighty star]

Dissolution of Eternity I don’t like as much

[finite crag]

I did beat Dimension of Past on Nightmare

I initially tried it on Normal without saving, but I couldn't get through it, so I just thought 'fuck it' and beat it on Nightmare with excessive saving to get two achievements, killing two birds with one stone

Dunno if I'd prefer Plutonia over TNT now... maybe I should play TNT on UV too lol

Ok I'd rather not. For a while I felt TNT was better than Plutonia, but now... I'm finding it hard to compare. They may both be in the DOOM 2 engine but they feel really different and have their own pros and cons

I'll just rank Final Doom as one entry

[sharp wyvern]

DO NOT DO THAT

[finite crag]

Yeah I got no plans too lol

[finite crag]

One thing I think Plutonia does better than TNT, is getting to-the-point. I do recall Odyssey of Noises being confusing af, but I remember TNT having more red herrings and being more obtuse in general compard to Plutonia.

I may dislike boobytraps and gotchas (which Plutonia is rich in), but red herrings I also dislike. Sometimes I dislike confusing and long-winded levels even more

I also noticed Plutonia has very few secrets per level. Which frankly I'm alright with

[woven swallow]

hello

[wicked goblet]

plutonia has better action than all of doom 2 combined

plutonia is less puzzley and more face grinding levels of monster hoards and saw trap level uses of archviles especially when they teleport them around and you have to fire your rockets at the right time to do damage

tnt a handful of memorable levels with casali and tai haldermen r.i.p but alot of levels that feel unfinished or just slapped together at times

[sharp wyvern]

Revenants are used in Plutonia much better than they are in Doom II

[finite crag]

This is up for opinion, but nothing is relevant to the canon outside Doom 1, 2, and 64. I would not call SIGIL canon, or any of the other expansions, personally.

[finite crag]

There is no reason to assume it is canon.

[sharp wyvern]

Kind of lame 🤷‍♀️

[finite crag]

Doom 64 has been officially canonized as a mainline title. This is why it is called canon. This has not happened for any of the expansions.

[sharp wyvern]

Would you count NRFTL given i’m pretty sure that showed up in a release of BFG Edition for Doom 3

[sharp wyvern]

I think if something continues the story of a canon doom game and hasn’t been called non canon that would just make it canon until proven otherwise

Just me though :P

[finite crag]

No. It has not been officially canonized, and also the very little "story" it has is so irreverent there is no point.

Doom 64 actually plays a part in the narrative. It is an actual step in Doomguy's character progression leading into the modern games. It explains what happened to him leading into the Argenta lore. They went out of their way to canonize it in the story. This has not happened with the expansions.

[sharp wyvern]

Then arguing the expansions are non canon is also baseless

[marsh whale]

all the expansions are canon

[finite crag]

No, this goes into the burden of proof. Considering they are irrelevant, them being non-canon is the default presumption. I would not consider them canon without actual proof saying so.

[sharp wyvern]

Them being side stories doesn’t make them non canon

Their stories following on from the canon games would imply they are canon naturally

[mighty star]

It’s most likely not canon, but I always viewed NRFTL as Doomguy cleaning up the demon remnants on earth after DOOM 2

[sharp wyvern]

I mean shit like Doom Resurrection (which John Carmack wanted to be made) follows the Bravo Team after the events of Doom 3 and then that got referenced in the very next released game Doom II RPG by having the areas of Hell be given the exact same names and having the corpse of a Doom Resurrection character be found where we left them

So like…? Are Doom Resurrection and the RPGs canon then?

[marsh whale]

there is a story and chronological order for all the expansions.

[sharp wyvern]

That seems like ID following up and referencing them

[mighty star]

Hol up tone’, Bravo team got wiped out in 3?

[sharp wyvern]

Lost Mission dlc for Doom 3 already says there were survivors

[finite crag]

It's not really about them being side stories. It is a combination of them being 1) fanfiction id props up because they happen to be pretty good fanfiction, 2) they have absolutely nothing to offer for the mainline narrative and are not mentioned in any capacity by other installments, 3) not even referencing each other, including the Final Doom IWADs being isolated follow-ups to Doom 2, and 4) elements of their narratives going off of older Doom ideas of Hell rather than aligning with what the modern canon says.

[sharp wyvern]

them having older Doom ideas of hell isn’t a point for them being non canon when… yk… older Doom has those too

[finite crag]

You can headcanon them to be relevant if you want. Theories are fun. But I see no reason to actually follow them as legitimate, mainline, relevant, canon Doom entries, especially considering how little a shit everyone involved gave about the story at the time.

[sharp wyvern]

Most classic doom manuals mention the existence of Satan but he’s sure as shit not in modern Doom

[sharp wyvern]

Nerve Software basically said as much

[finite crag]

Modern Doom contextualized those, and the originals were vague about it. Baphomet, meanwhile, is listed as a legitimate figure in Hell in SIGIL, and he straight up does not exist in the actual Doom canon at all.
Any classic Doom manuals are irrelevant but the very originals as those were the ones written by id.

[sharp wyvern]

Baphomet is the Icon of Sin

The Icon of Sin’s design is based on Baphomet and he was referred to as Baphomet in the TNT Evilution manual

[finite crag]

The Icon is never referred to as this in the actual Doom canon, so regardless of what ideas TNT or John came up with, this is also fanfiction.

[sharp wyvern]

Yes if you ignore all the games where they are called that I suppose he never was

[sharp wyvern]

Anyway this was all ID so I guess the RPGs are more canon than the classic doom expansions for whatever reason

[finite crag]

The games id never supervised, never had any hand in working on, and never referenced, yes.

[sharp wyvern]

Thank you John Carmack

[finite crag]

i.e. the fanfiction. Making it officially playable doesn't make it not fanfiction. Especially when the menu makes sure to emphasize all of these installments being made by other people.

I don't see Sigil as necessarily canon, just John Romero cooking

Like I said, theory craft however you want, it's fun and I don't want to rain on the parade. But I would not concretely call the expansions canon without actual comments from id explaining as much.

[sharp wyvern]

Sandy Petersen said that IOS was based on Baphomet I believe

[sharp wyvern]

So are the RPGs canon then?

[finite crag]

Yeah, because John is effectively just a fan. He has no part in the Doom canon anymore, and hasn't since he left id.

nope, fanfic

[sharp wyvern]

ID basically said as much

[finite crag]

I know. I dunno if John himself sees them as fully canon. I think it's called an unofficial 5th and 6th episode

[sharp wyvern]

They say that Doom RPG follows the protagonist of Dooms 1, 2 (and iirc 3? I don’t recall) and Doom Resurrection directly follows Doom 3 and then was referenced by Doom II RPG

[finite crag]

What matters is that they are cool

I still have not touched the RPGs or mighty doom btw

[sharp wyvern]

can you even touch Mighty Doom

[finite crag]

If you want to believe they are, sure. If id referenced them in official, canon Doom content then you can use that as evidence pointing to their existence in the Doom multiverse.

I will say I don't think RPG makes much sense if you are aligning it with the actual core Doom narrative. If it is canon, I would prefer multiverse shenanigans.

[mighty star]

RPGs are interesting

I like the holy water pistol

[sharp wyvern]

See

[marsh whale]

John created the game. it's canon if he says it is.

[sharp wyvern]

Do you not think that ID making 3 games, one of which follows the story of Doom 3

And then having the rpgs reference that follow up
Was them trying to create a continuity here

[finite crag]

My head

[sharp wyvern]

The only ID statement on Doom 3 is that it’s Doom if Doom 1 and 2 didn’t happen so like is Doom 3 canon?

[finite crag]

I never tried to look into the whole continuinity thing

[sharp wyvern]

I don’t recall ID ever stating Doom 3 was canon

[finite crag]

DOOM 3 is canon, it's alternate universe

[finite crag]

No. John is not involved with Doom anymore. If he spoke out today and said Doomguy is actually a horse of bees in a human skin suit, would you just believe that? He is not involved in working on the Doom canon.

[sharp wyvern]

Ok and you could say this about a lot of Doom games

[finite crag]

yeeah which is why I hardly care about lore

[sharp wyvern]

The RPG demon variants are skins in Eternal after all /j

[finite crag]

This is why authorial intent is so lame. John previously making Doom changes nothing about SIGIL. It doesn't change that he is not involved in the narrative process and hasn't been in decades.

[sharp wyvern]

Sure we say that

But if we’re going off of ID statements every ID Statement from when 3 came out was “it’s not canon to classic doom”

[finite crag]

Retcons happen sometimes. I could be misremembering that DOOM 3 is/is not alt universe stuff, but I know for a fact that it was initially a reboot

[sharp wyvern]

ok so now we’re saying that Doom 3 was retconned into being canon

[finite crag]

Doom lore is weird and a bit too grand for its own good

[sharp wyvern]

even tho Hugo reiterated that it isn’t on stream /hj

[finite crag]

He did? Well I guess i misremembered then. Again, lore is all over the place lol

[sharp wyvern]

But then if Doom 3 is canon you have to ask why aren’t the 3 games that John Carmack spearheaded that continue on from Doom 3 wouldn’t be

[finite crag]

I'm not the lore expert here

[sharp wyvern]

Doom 3 releases -> Doom RPG, seemingly disconnected, releases -> Doom Resurrection, which follows the final surviving Bravo Marine from Doom 3, releases -> Doom II RPG releases and every area in Hell has the name of a Doom Resurrection level and we find the dead body of the companion robot from Doom Resurrection there after they died in Resurrection

That certainly seems like ID creating a shared continuity to me

And all of those games were created by ID, not fans

[thorn jungle]

we're still talking about this?

[finite crag]

I want to point out, regardless of a lot of this shit, that Doom 3 is absolutely canon and arguing otherwise would be ignoring several elements of it. They outright brought back the Martians in Doom 2016 as the Argenta. The new games actually reference 3 and its characters / artifacts. It was initially meant to be a reboot, but once Doom started establishing a shared canon comprising a multiverse it became clear that Doom 3 is a part of that multiverse. It closely aligns with the lore and its elements.

[sharp wyvern]

You’d think Hugo would stop saying it’s non canon then

To be clear I agree Doom 3 is canon

But if we’re talking about games being referenced then… well like I said, RPGs and Resurrection

[finite crag]

I am not aware of any statements regarding Hugo saying Doom 3 is not canon. Regardless, authorial intent is bullshit and Hugo has been wrong before.

[finite crag]

Sure, and considering the multiverse shenanigans, believing the RPGs and Resurrection can be canon is perfectly fine.

[sharp wyvern]

It’s in his Tyler McVicker interview after Eternal released

He had implied on a previous livestream that Doom 3 was canon and then Tyler asked him about it and he clarified that he didn’t mean that

[thorn jungle]

do not trust Hugo Martin when he says something is not canon to the series

[sharp wyvern]

I’ll go grab the stream I’m talking about

[finite crag]

Yeah, would like to see this.

[sharp wyvern]

If we can’t trust Hugo on an entire game being canon then I’m starting to wonder whether ID making a statement is actually worth anything in this conversation

[woven swallow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1308938431279403026/1362808675273674792/HarderThanOkuplok.wad?ex=6803bdfb&is=68026c7b&hm=3ea0db06a247aca13ed0d50451d4160c0376665b5507b1bb154ab96b6735eb9d&

[finite crag]

It's about statements VS non-statements. The creators of a game working on a game is an indicator of relevance. Hugo pulling random answers out of his ass because he's being asked lore questions he did not prepare for isn't really an indicator of anything.

[thorn jungle]

as m0no has said, Doom 3 has been referenced several times in the new games

it would be stupid if he just made something not canon

...for no reason, without even thinking of what you put in your own games

[finite crag]

Not even just referenced. Doom 3 outright introduced an entire species and then Doom 2016 based the crux of its player character on that species.

[thorn jungle]

plus, it would totally make sense if the Slayer found another Soul Cube (i don't know if there's only one) in hell and take it to his place

because regardless of the main timeline and Doom 3's, hell still remains the same between the two games

[wicked goblet]

it kind of is the events of doom 3 isn't canon but doom 3s version of the uac is canon with its hell worshiping and demon experiments

[sharp wyvern]

we have the confirmed canon games of 1, 2, 64, 2016, Eternal, TDA
and the referenced games of 3, Resurrection, II RPG and VFR

[finite crag]

@sharp wyvern
Okay so I watched that and yeah Hugo is full of shit. But I want to note his statement that 2016 was "bringing elements of the whole series together."

To me I think it is clear Doom 3 is a blueprint for 2016. Its narrative elements are all either referencing Doom 3 or outright ripping it off. I think Hugo is pretty hesitant to make mention of the Doom multiverse, something they have fleshed out more as time goes on, and so he may worry that saying Doom 3 is canon will make fans think it connects to the actual Doom 2016-Eternal continuity - rather than just as a part of the huge multiverse.

[sharp wyvern]

it's a little interesting hearing him say that doom 3 goes in a different direction lore wise or whatever tho

[finite crag]

Doom 3 is canon, but not really relevant to the Slayer. I think Hugo would mainly be concerned with giving off the impression a game that he didn't really do much with is super connected to games that comprise his "baby" in 2016 and Eternal.

[sharp wyvern]

i think hugo just likes 64 and that's why 64 is referenced all the time

[wicked goblet]

with the introduction of the multiverse and slipgate travel its all canon

[sharp wyvern]

perhaps

it was a weird segment like wdym it connects "VISUALLY" but not story wise 😭

[finite crag]

This is especially weird because in terms of Hell lore 2016 is literally constantly ripping off 3. I have to wonder if he mainly means 3's direction for the UAC or it having a traditional Doomguy rather than the Slayer.

[sharp wyvern]

i think regardless of 3 being canon or not 2016 is ripping off a lot from 3

it might just be the slayer and maykr stuff hes talking about

[finite crag]

Oh yeah. It is why I prefer Eternal's story. It's messier, but it's more original and authentic to itself. 2016 sometimes feels like it is holding itself back and ripping off another game to satiate concerned executives.

[sharp wyvern]

kind of true

i prefer 2016's mostly just cause it's less retconny and PERSONALLY i think it feels like it's told better but Eternal is at least less repetitive

2016's plot was already done like twice before

actually three times cause i wasnt even counting Doom 1

[finite crag]

2016 is definitely told better.

Eternal's just more interesting to me.

[sharp wyvern]

I think TDA will have the best told story tho

[finite crag]

Oh by far. I'm very excited for that.

[sharp wyvern]

Cause it will have been subject to less crunch and factors like Covid

also stuff being shown outside the codex is awesome of course of course

[thorn jungle]

you mean:

• Doomguy wakes up in a facility full of demons, he's got a gun, he's got more guns
• he goes to hell and kills more demons
• he fights a big demon and goes back to the previous world

[finite crag]

I also just love the Argenta.

[sharp wyvern]

Also TDA will be the best story cause it’ll confirm Legacy of Rust is canon /j

[thorn jungle]

i think so?

[sharp wyvern]

trueee they’re great

[sharp wyvern]

yeah Doom 1, 3 and RPG all did that

[finite crag]

Also it's on Mars and it's because of the UAC and also there's an executive guy who is morally grey but wants to help stop it and also there's a UAC scientist working with Hell and also there's a primordial race of proto-humans involved in the lore and also there's a big bad chosen one who fought with them.

All of this is shit Doom 3 did before 2016.

[sharp wyvern]

and then Doom 2 and II RPG were Lightly Borrowed From for Eternal

and then final doom was used for The Ancient G

TDA is like the first fully original plot tho

I think…? It’s definitely not going off of 64

[finite crag]

contradictory
one is generally beloved while the other is significantly less well-received
level design is generally more sadistic
Sounds right to me.

[thorn jungle]

unless we'd get the Mother Demon again, or some lesser form of it

[finite crag]

I think it is going off of 64 in terms of its atmosphere and vibes. More sinister, more alien, a greater focus on the trauma and horror rather than the asskickery.

[sharp wyvern]

also tnt and tag 1 end on different planets and tag 2 goes from earth post-invasion to hell

killing Davoth even does the same thing as killing Baphomet in TNT and The Gatekeeper in Plutonia by making all the demons evaporate

[sharp wyvern]

Ohh kinda true yeah

[thorn jungle]

but with all the footage we've been getting, it's still going in the direction of nudoom: more kickassery

[sharp wyvern]

The shotgun (only important part of the game) is based on Doom 64 that’s what matters

[thorn jungle]

is the TDA shotgun pump action?

[sharp wyvern]

purely headcanon connecting it to the modern games here but it is neat that the Icon of Sin glows blue upon death in Evilution

very reminiscent of killing the Icon in Eternal

Probably not an intentional reference but nice coincidence

[sharp wyvern]

iirc the shotgun and super shotgun both function like the 64 ones

[thorn jungle]

the Titan in Taras Nabad is indefinitely locked in stasis because the Crucible blade is stuck in its chest...

but the Icon is dead because it was stabbed in the brain, right? even if you take out the Crucible, it'll stay dead?

[sharp wyvern]

No i think the crucible has to stay in

Though… how tf did they die pre Eternal

cause they seem fairly dead in 2016

[thorn jungle]

combat shotgun is self cocking (pay attention to the mechanism), but the super shotgun is lever action

[finite crag]

Titans do not have to die by Crucibles, but Crucibles are a quick and easy way to take care of them, as killing them is way more of a problem without one.

[sharp wyvern]

doom eternal would’ve been easier had doomguy just remembered he had a rocket launcher

[finite crag]

Eternal is just wrong here. It acts like you need a Crucible to kill a Titan, when in reality a Crucible is the fastest way to dispatch one but doesn't actually kill them. Doomguy did it in 2 with a rocket launcher.

[sharp wyvern]

could’ve skipped Taras Nabad

[thorn jungle]

the Taras Nabad Titan is in a coma

[sharp wyvern]

Yeah it’s weird cause

Removing the hilt in Taras Nabad seems to wake the guy up

Or like at least make him move a little

So is it basically just that Titans can’t die and can just be put in a coma??

[finite crag]

They CAN die, but Crucible insertion seems to put them in stasis.

[sharp wyvern]

so what on Earth kills them then

[thorn jungle]

the Taras Nabad guy wasn't damaged at all, and Crucible-ing him puts him in a coma

[sharp wyvern]

like ik the icon is supposedly dead after Doom II but maybe that was quietly retconned into being in stasis too??????

[thorn jungle]

Atlans! Huge machine gun rounds...

[sharp wyvern]

but then why did they need the betrayers son

[sharp wyvern]

That’s kind of weird then

Feels like Doomguy should like… kill the IOS after putting the crucible blade in

[thorn jungle]

it was rather to convince Valen into betraying the Argenta

[thorn jungle]

the Icon was dead, because it was in horrible condition prior to Crucible stabbing right into its brain

[sharp wyvern]

I guess

[finite crag]

The Icon is likely dead after 2 then resurrected by the Betrayer's son ritual, like what they do to Betruger and Olivia.

[sharp wyvern]

Right right

Hey m0no what do you think about the take that the four ages of hell are meant to be 1, 64, 3 and 2016

[sharp wyvern]

I suppose I’m just kinda wondering why bother with the crucibles when you can just shoot the guys to death

Also now I’m wondering what the hell happened to the guy before MAP30 to leave him stuck in a wall 😭

Did he trip and fall over and break his skull on some random stone wall in hell

[thorn jungle]

Doom 2 Icon had a very vulnerable weak point with its brain exposed

[sharp wyvern]

what happened to that guy

[quiet warren]

Cause it’s a lot easier

The crucible keeping the Icon in stasis would remove the chance of another resurrection ritual happening as well

[finite crag]

I would not agree. The First Age IIRC is stated to have included the Unholy Wars (Argenta v Hell).

To my knowledge the Ages would be:
First Age (Doom 1, 2, 64, TDA)
Second Age (n/a)
Third Age (Slayer is incapacitated, Doom 3)
Fourth Age (Doom 2016)
Fifth Age (Doom Eternal)

The Third Age with Doom 3 is more speculation.

To my knowledge the Codex implies an Age of Hell begins and ends with the tenure of a Dark Lord. Thus, by killing the Aranea Imperatrix, the Slayer kick-starts the Fifth Age.

[finite crag]

Also yes, this. The Crucible is a shortcut to avoid a long and arduous fight with a Titan.

We can presume that Doomguy's fight with the Icon in Doom II was significantly more arduous and exhaustive than what we actually see. Or, that the Icon's fighting capabilities were stunted by being actually immobile.

[finite crag]

I also personally headcanon that the Maledict was a Dark Lord, and that the Marine Engineer killing it started the Fourth Age of Hell.

[neat sun]

hey guys! kind of new here! sorry if the question should be in another channel. Just let me know.

Do you know if I can enable headshots in Project Brutality? just downloaded it and is AMAZING but I really like headshoting people. Any way to make it happen?

[twin mortar]

Try in #classic-doom-maps-mods or #community-support aswell

[neat sun]

thanks

[twin mortar]

crazy...

<@&162901871168585728>

[mighty star]

Scammers again?

[silver sage]

Has noone made a boiled doom 2 yet for the new port?

I found one but when i activate it it loads up doom 1

[final moss]

Deathmatch anyone?

[sharp wyvern]

Ah yeah if it is then this kinda falls apart

[sharp wyvern]

Wasn’t there cut 2016 codexes that said a “Chimera” ruled Hell at one point? (Maledict????)

Also apparently the Cyberdemon in 2016 (which I am aware is a Baalgar) was apparently in a great battle in the third age

Both of those sound very Doom 3

[finite crag]

[old ether]

What is the second age

[quiet warren]

There isn’t much information about it

[sharp wyvern]

It’s the only one not mentioned in any codex entry iirc

[old ether]

Does it exist what is it about i thought after doom guy got buried we went to doom 3 storyline

[quiet warren]

Considering that there’s a first, third, and fourth age there must be a second age. We just don’t know what happened during the second age, who its ruler was, and what brought on the third age

Personally I’d like to headcanon that period of time as laden with demon uprisings

The great serpent rebelled during the first age, so there were likely more rebels who succeeded at disposing the first dark lord, and then the lord of the second age was killed by the Maledict.

[old ether]

who numbered these ages tho like who decided that doom 3 is the 3rd age or is that just cuz the name has 3 in it 😭

Why can’t doom 3 be the second age

[quiet warren]

Doom 3 being the 3rd age is just speculation

Really doom 3 could be anywhere

[old ether]

So for all we know they could be 4 ages not 5

[quiet warren]

Since it’s so detached from the rest of the series

[quiet warren]

The second and third ages still happened

[old ether]

Ye but like why cant it go like this
First age doom 1 to tda
Second age doom 3
Third age doom 2016
Fourth age doom eternal

[quiet warren]

It was confirmed that the Spider Mastermind (Aranea Imperatrix) was Dark Lord of the fourth age by 2016’s codex

So following its death it would be the fifth age

[old ether]

Oh

[quiet warren]

The Spider Mastermind was spoken of in a demonic prophecy contained in a compendium found by the UAC in the Umbral Plains during the first Lazarus tethering operation, designation MTC 2146/351. The tome, found in the crypt of a destroyed tower of unknown construction (codenamed PL E2M8), spoke cryptically of the Aranea Imperatrix as being the union between the master of the fourth age of Hell and the "key holder", referred to only as being a female with no further clarification. The form of the Aranea Imperatrix is said to be carried in the mind of all demons, to be fed with the blood of those who have fallen in battle, and to be made with bones of rock, iron, steel, and sinew. The prophecy refers to the entity as a "god to rule all other gods," and promises that it will be imbued with the power of a dark priest and will banish the heretics of the Penumbral Plain.

[old ether]

Which spider mastermind atp i feel like theres countless of them LOL

[quiet warren]

The one in 2016

The 2016 spider mastermind and spider masterminds from classic doom are completely different entities basically

[old ether]

Ohhh

[old ether]

Yeye I know

[old ether]

Wait the spidermind in 2016 isnt olivia?

[junior warren]

It is

[quiet warren]

It’s a merger between Olivia and the dark lord

Olivia was used as a vessel, and her traits (cybernetic augmentations, high intelligence) caused the demon to manifest as a spider mastermind lookalike iirc.

[old ether]

So dark lord brain olivia’s body?

[bitter schooner]

help me I am playing doom classic maps like my house.wad but sound effects and wall textures are not loading but the creatures are loading Why does this problem occur? I open it with doom2 gzdoom. 4-10-0 windows 64 bit How can I solve it?

[vale gyro]

I don't suggest using older versions. I've recently heard that older versions have some pretty bad security concerns.

Used the patched version instead. It's found on I think 3rd to last page of the Doomworld forum

post should be by Xaser

This exact post
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2885995

[bitter schooner]

but lastes versions have problem opening my house . wad and like thes olda maps how to open

[bitter schooner]

opening terminal

[vale gyro]

I can confirm using the latest release of GZ and using the patched version works perfectly fine on my end

[woven swallow]

use the fixed version that coder provided it actually works

[vale gyro]

it doesn't help that they're using a very outdated version of GZDoom

like by 4 major versions

[bitter schooner]

how can i find

[vale gyro]

and 12-13 total versions

[woven swallow]

what?

[bitter schooner]

fixed versions

[vale gyro]

I posted the link above

also, update your GZDoom

like I said, you're 12 versions out of date

and there's a major security exploit in the version you're on

specifically involving arrays in ZScript

[bitter schooner]

oh now i dowlanding the fixed ver

but i searcing difrent map

in the giant bayb

its still textueres has no loading

walls black and sond effects no have

[vale gyro]

your IWAD might just genuinely be effed

redownload the game from Steam (or GOG) and copy your Doom 2 IWAD (DOOM2.WAD) from the base folder and not the rerelease folder

[bitter schooner]

how to find doom.2 for free

i dowlandep MobDB

https://www.moddb.com/downloads/doom2-wad-file

oh i dowlanded githup and fixed now

thanks

[woven swallow]

💀

bruh

[bitter schooner]

?

oh i understand now

NAH İTS doomsknight

[twin mortar]

You can buy it on Steam, GOG, Microsoft Store, or Epic Games Store on PC

[bitter schooner]

i have no money

[twin mortar]

You can install Freedoom then, a communitymade alternative

It'll just look and sound different, and none of the official levels are included; it's purely for mods

[bitter schooner]

i finded alreday

[cyan sierra]

what is yall favorite slaughterfest2012 ost?

mine is probably at infinte sky

[woven swallow]

i haven't played it yet, only sf2011, i might get into that

[finite crag]

My plutonia UV journey is over

I did not beat all levels UV but I did beat the majority of Plutonia levels UV saveless, which was my goal

[storm tapir]

Now you are ready to do it on nightmare

[finite crag]

https://tenor.com/view/walter-metastasis-white-fall-dead-gif-23556275

Ngl when trying to play through levels 20-30, I felt like I was in TNT Evilution again... in the sense that the levels got longer, less attractive and more obtuse. But with Plutonia's signature cons and booby traps added in.

I did do some nightmare on DOOM 2 this morning for fun lol

[quiet warren]

Pretty much

[sharp wyvern]

i really like map29 ngl tho

first ever good city level?!

[finite crag]

I don't remember liking it much, no desire to replay

not uncommon for the last third of a doom game to be the weaker part

[sharp wyvern]

yeah thats an issue with most of them

[finite crag]

My opinion on Plutonia did increase slightly

And although it took many hours of play, I don't regret it much, feels good to refresh one's mind on a famous iwad

[woven swallow]

plutonia uv fast instead

[finite crag]

uv fast with coop spawns

[ruby lance]

no more fhshh?

[rancid shore]

we need doom in doom in doom

[wise cipher]

In your guys's opinions what game is better doom one 1993 or Doom 2 1994?

Also what's the difference between UV and UV fast again I forgot

[finite crag]

DOOM 2 better imo

And UV fast is just UV but with fast monsters.

[thorn jungle]

Doom 2's better cuz it has a lot more monsters, the ssg, and more level variety to work around the monster mechanics

[wise cipher]

Oh ok also I agree doom 2 is better

Should we make a tier list

On like the weapons in the game

[thorn jungle]

of the monsters?

[wise cipher]

Maybe both

[thorn jungle]

oh

[finite crag]

S Tier: Both shotguns and the BFG

A Tier: Plasma Gun

B Tier: Chaingun and Rocket Launchuh
C Tier: Chainsaw
D Tier: Pistol

Just throwing thoughts out there

[thorn jungle]

i was just about to say that for B

[wise cipher]

I'm thinking maybe BFG a tier because of high ammo consumption but at the same time it can get you out of almost any bad situation

[finite crag]

The anti-archvile tool

[wise cipher]

Huh what's the anti-archive tool

[thorn jungle]

BFG

[finite crag]

Aka tthe one thing that made some plutonia UV levels tolerable

[wise cipher]

Arch file

[finite crag]

[wise cipher]

Sorry I read it wrong

[finite crag]

No problem lol

[thorn jungle]

the ssg is also a worthy contender for archie removal, but it wastes like 8 precious shells

[wise cipher]

We should also make just a quick to tier list about the monsters

[thorn jungle]

(despite this, i have so far never used the BFG on an archvile)

[finite crag]

Love how SSG and Rocket launcher have one thing in common: An equal amount of shots to take out a baron or hell knight

[wise cipher]

I feel like plasma rifle is good for Archviles because it has the highest fire rate in the game so we can just Perma Stone basically.

[thorn jungle]

Tier S: Chaingunners

[wise cipher]

F Tier Archviles

[finite crag]

https://tenor.com/view/gus-gus-fring-gustavo-gustavo-fring-what-did-you-say-gif-45945180141023668

S: Chaingunners...

I'd say S tier would be hell knights. I just really like them don't get why lol

No wait, CACODEMONS. The spoopy bastards themselves

[wise cipher]

They have a cool character design

[thorn jungle]

Shotgunners land in A because of their devastating power when in numbers and in ambush scenarios

[wise cipher]

For some reason the cacodemons just look like something I would use to scrub my think they look like sponges.

[thorn jungle]

they're literally just recolors of barons

[finite crag]

If we talking how dangerous they are, Chaingunners can easily sweep A

[wise cipher]

Oh yea

[finite crag]

I know but they somehow look better and they're not too tanky

[thorn jungle]

we are talking about how dangerous they are

[finite crag]

Barons are also cool btw

[wise cipher]

I feel like the tier list should be on how dangerous they are the character design how annoying they are to deal with

And how many spawm

Spawn I mean

[finite crag]

Chaingunner...

Dangerous and annoying to deal with: Both S, at least A.

Character design: Around a B. They look kinda funny

[thorn jungle]

Pain elementals are made trivial by just getting in their faces (or, due to infinite actor height, getting underneath them when flying) and blasting them with ssg

[finite crag]

Hmm that was not explicitly said at first, but in that case, yeah it can depend on the situation.

[thorn jungle]

about 3-4 times

[finite crag]

If an archie spawns in front of me and I have a BFG, I am conditioned to just blast em.

But if an archie spawns in a place surrounded by enemies and/or far away but it can see me... fuck. Better hope there's cover nearby

[wise cipher]

What's your opinions on cyber demons

[finite crag]

They are really fucking cool

Tanky but fair. Not too hard once you know how to circle strafe (unless he's in an area where you really can't do that lol), just the margin for error is low af since his attacks deal crazy damage

[wise cipher]

And about to BFG shots and don't spawn that often so good boss enemy

Two BFG shots

[thorn jungle]

the cyberdemon in Map 29 makes it so that you can circlestrafe, but the walls are so close that you'll just get splash damaged

not to mention those pesky revenants that have been sniping you for the whole level

[finite crag]

It's fun to unleash a cyberdemon on enemies lol

https://tenor.com/view/let-them-fight-godzilla-ken-gif-9562555

Did that in Baron's Lair on Plutonia, bunch of pesky revs wanted to assault me so I just opened the Cyberdemon's gate strateegically

[thorn jungle]

i wish more enemies could get to negative health in order to get gibbed

[finite crag]

Spider-mastermind?

Dangerous for sure, he's a hitscanner, and a very tanky one. Two words that shouldn't be put in the same sentence

I also love how design

[thorn jungle]

she's a laughing stock

[finite crag]

She can be dangerous given the right circumstances, but with a BFG at hand... no one is safe. Also is she utilized less than cyberdemon or is my memory bad?

I hear that Sigil 2 on UV has a cyberdemon on every level

[thorn jungle]

easily stunlocked, wastes too much time slowly waddling towards you instead of firing her chaingun on sight, and can be easily tricked into fighting her own children

[finite crag]

Ah maybe I should just stunlock more lol. GOt it.

I am aware of the attack own children stuff... what a great mom.

[thorn jungle]

plasma gun can easily stunlock her

[finite crag]

I want to state that I don't fight her often because she does not seem utilized as much as Cybie

But thanks for the tip Frostbite, I'll think about this

[thorn jungle]

np man

[wise cipher]

You know how the spider Mastermind has kids basically the arachnetron but the Cyber demons do not have kids basically what if they secretly do.

[rancid shore]

i like chainsaw when you need to kill a pretty big resistent monster that is too close on you,

[wise cipher]

If you could rate every weapon in Doom 2 how would you rate them

Any tips for Doom 1 nightmare

[finite crag]

Save-scum. Save-scum and save-scum a lot

Doom 1 nightmare is unhinged. I tried it and got past 3-4 levels or so before I quit

[wise cipher]

Quick saves

[wicked goblet]

the best doom 1 nightmare experience you can have is just UV fast monsters

dealing with respawning hitscanners without a ssg is pain

[lunar rune]

Ignoring just.. saving a lot, which I tended to avoid in DOOM 1 Nightmare

• Always check your back, an enemy might've respawned and is 7 step counters away from killing you
• Don't spend time killing huge groups of enemies, just run! They're all going to respawn anyways.
• Keep your ammo steady, the double ammo buff is there for a reason
• Target Shotgunners at any given moment, they are the second easiest to kill yet the bane of your existance
• Get enemies to infight as much as you can

Some maps like E2M6 (ugh) basically force you to kill every enemy you see because of the limited space you have

[wise cipher]

Thanks

[storm tapir]

Forgot the best tip: watch nightmare demos so you know what they do to avoid painful paths / clear annoying rooms

[azure nimbus]

I was suspicious of how easily it's stunned. Like obvi it can get stunned, but easily? (goes to show how often these things show up that I'm not sure after half a decade of playing doom). So I drop into e3m8, hit idkfa, and stand directly in front of the spiderdemon with the plasma. It didn't attack a single time

[thorn jungle]

that's because its pain chance was made stupidly high

if i were to make a change to it, it should have had less pain chance than the cyberdemon, to compensate for its lesser health

i looked it up more, and found out that the spiderdemon's pain chance 40 (12.89%) is very close to barons and hell knights' chance which is 50 (16.80%)

(for comparison, cyberdemon's chance is 20, 5.47%)

[woven swallow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1167762378197311528/1363416538312474734/doom17.png?ex=6805f419&is=6804a299&hm=1534a02d8f9714e2166b993e62d6e599d643d9e2b85e079792538f8cd9689787& this shit was hard

[cobalt swallow]

anyone wanna help get not so bad trophy? beat every level on Nightmare in co-operative mode. if youre on psn dm me

[finite crag]

Started playing the Psx/jaguar exclusive levels through a mod

Liking them so far on UV

[thorn jungle]

i've always hated stupid E2M6 UV

[finite crag]

i remember disliking the one and only run I had on Halls of the Damned

Rematch time 🔥

[restive jetty]

Hi, I can see in my steam library there is DOOM + DOOM 2 and just DOOM 2, is it normal ?
I read something on google an enhanced version was release few months ago, I d'ont know what it is.
I didn't finish the first DOOM game so if I want to start a new game should I need "the enhanced version" ?

[vale gyro]

It’s normal, yes.

I personally suggest using a source port if you don’t care about achievements, though

Idk if it’s still the case, but the official port was wildly unstable at best

[restive jetty]

Oh okay thanks

I remember I was playing with DSDA and a "mod" for bug correction

[tender mural]

Brutal doom?

[vale gyro]

DSDA-Doom has no support for that mod

also, that doesn't fix any bugs whatsoever, it just creates new ones

[thorn jungle]

GZDoom is probably the best port for BD

[cobalt swallow]

anyone wanna help get not so bad trophy? beat every level on Nightmare in co-operative mode. if youre on psn dm me

[vale gyro]

tbf, it's basically one of like 3 that actually support it

[tender mural]

Doom complex lca?

https://youtu.be/BgRmuO2re3Y?si=llgrJNawA3dFGzBI

[woven swallow]

i don't think there's any other port that can even run BD properly other than gzdoom

[restive jetty]

Should I choose complevel 2 or 3 ? I don't know if I have DOOM 1 or Ultimate DOOM

[azure nimbus]

Ult doom is doom1 with e4. This is the only version you'll find nowadays. Use cl3 for doom 1(that is any episode of ult doom), cl2 for doom2, 4 for final doom. Uses whatever number the download tells you if you play custom levels

[restive jetty]

Oh I don't play custom level

Juste the DOOM.wad in zdl to play smooth in 1440p

[azure nimbus]

For a few years, d1 and d2 were sold as separate games. Recently, they have been bundled together. Owners of either automatically get the new official port. While the official port is good, dsda is still a more faithful and featurerisk way to play(and more stable)

zdl is only launching the game. You're launching through a launcher that instructs a port, perhaps dsda or gz, to do the actual running of the game

[restive jetty]

Yes I have dsda too

For vanilla experience

[azure nimbus]

The port runs the game. It has all the code. The wad file provides levels and assets

For most people, you won't notice a difference between cl2 and cl3. If you're interested, see if you can notice the few differences: ||cl3 lost souls bounce. On cl3, you can select e4 from the menu.|| cl3 is for doom1 and made later than cl2. Why is this? Because d1's engine was adjusted slightly to fit the fourth episode released after doom2 as a retail bonus.

[restive jetty]

I though my DOOM1 was in 1.9 on steam

[azure nimbus]

That's right

You have all 4 episides. You have the latest version.

[restive jetty]

The AI told me to choose CP2 for 1.9 Définir -complevel 2 (Doom 1.9)

[azure nimbus]

There's no CP. It's -CL or -complevel.

[restive jetty]

Oh sorry ^^

Perplexity sent me that settings for DOOM1 :
-complevel 2 # Doom 1.9 vanilla -vid_rendermode 1 # OpenGL -width 2560 -height 1440 # Résolution 1440p

[azure nimbus]

Don't listen to chatgpt. Either read the wiki, watch a video from someone who's done it, ask here, read a forum post whatever. chatgpt never played the game

[restive jetty]

Yes you're right

[azure nimbus]

You should run complevel 3 for doom 1.

[restive jetty]

Okay thanks

[azure nimbus]

There's no need to command line the width and height. You can, but I'd just play with that in-game so I can quickly trial and error it

[restive jetty]

Ah I see

[azure nimbus]

check out the doomwiki page on comp levels or decino's video on it if you're interested in more details. While I care about the history, the gist is
d1: cl3
d2: cl2
final doom: cl4
boom: cl9
mbf: cl11
mbf21: cl21

The other numbers have super niche uses. I've read about them a bit but have not once had to use another complevel to play a level.

[restive jetty]

Yeah I just read the wiki page and said cl3 for ultimate doom

Do you play with save ?

[azure nimbus]

Yeah but I try to practice to lowering them down to zero. But sometimes that's not realistic depending on the map

[restive jetty]

Oh okay, if I remember correctly you can't save in the original game

[finite crag]

Yeah saving is considered cheating

[azure nimbus]

That's not true

[azure nimbus]

It's considered cheating if you are submitting an RTA demo. It's not cheating if you're just playing the game or learning the levels.

[restive jetty]

I've read this somewhere on google or steam comunity

[azure nimbus]

Remember, the concept of cheating only exists when you are submitting something as a competitive entry in a game with rules. If you're chillin, you're chilin

[azure nimbus]

What you might be remembering is that saving didn't really work on map30 (because the spawn cubes got confused)

Or perhaps that extremely large maps wouldn't allow saving for some technical reason. But saving was always a feature and always free

[azure nimbus]

You can, with some admitted finnagling, run doom on a free DOS emulator today. I've done that and saving works fine.

I really can't exactly recommend playing doom on dosbox unless you think that's just a cool thing to do. But I suppose you can do it to fact check when people say stuff like that

[restive jetty]

Yes that's possible

[hexed escarp]

Holy shit

Okuplok uv max no saves

It has been done

[mighty star]

WHAT

DID ZEROMASTER DO IT?

[median cloud]

who did it??

Coincident

crazy man

[hexed escarp]

yeah

[hexed escarp]

no, it was coincident

[finite crag]

Oh yeah, that Plasma Gun strat worked like a charm for Spidey

I used it when playing MAP54:Redemption Denied (the PS1/Saturn-exclusive map, which is thankfully available on DOOM1+2 through a mod)

Easy boss but I'd rather have this than Icon of Sin...

I love the Icon of Sin, Doom 2 is a better game with his inclusion.

I am finding 'PlayStation DOOM' to be really interesting

[mighty star]

club doom is awesome

revenants on the dance floor

[finite crag]

Ima play it when I can. Gotta love modders

[vale gyro]

The only WAD I've seen that requires anything other than those is RUST, which uses -complevel 1 for some reason.

[echo eagle]

yooo new update

sigil 2

looks great

[pulsar drift]

"Travel to the moon" part 1 is the bane of my existence 🤣😭

[finite crag]

it is

[vale gyro]

Neon Overdrive is so bloody Archvile heavy

I've encountered like 4 or 5 within not even 1 1/2 maps

[finite crag]

[vale gyro]

I'm not even on UV

[finite crag]

I'm starting to get on a UV grind

[vale gyro]

tbh, idk if I'll even be able to complete this WAD just by judging the first map

and the tiny bit of map02 I played

[finite crag]

I almost said 'lower the difficulty' but I wouldn't do that myself, lol. I'm too prideful to play on ITYTD

[pulsar drift]

I won't even fk with Nightmare lol

[vale gyro]

I mainly play on HMP

I've been trying some UV as of recent, though

[finite crag]

Same

When I got the Jaguar/PSX levels from the Mod marketplace (thank fuck for being able to play DOOM Mods on PS5 thanks to Kex port), I started UV right away

[finite crag]

Oh I tried it

https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-breaking-bad-lol-lmao-rofl-gif-16433990

It drove me insane after just a few levels

[vale gyro]

me with Scythe 2

[pulsar drift]

I don't understand how Romero and carmack would curse us all, with that setting lol. I dont think I've ever beat a level on nightmare.

[finite crag]

Granted, they do discourage you from picking it

[finite crag]

Romero and Carmack implemented this as a humorous retort to people who complained about UV being too easy

They got literal letters from people so they decided to perform a little update lmao

[pulsar drift]

That's hilarious 😂

[vale gyro]

I need to play Episodes 1-3 again tbh

they were fun

4 and especially 5 made me want to quit
6 made me quit

[finite crag]

it is. I have quite some respect for DOOM 1 and the devs

[vale gyro]

same

[pulsar drift]

Oh absolutely, they've opened up an entire world for me that I never thought I'd get into.

The development behind it is fascinating

[hexed escarp]

i am playing tnt map32 rn and i already knew it was made by dario casali but damn this is literally just a plutonia map

[jade solstice]

I thought scythe 2 was fine tbh
Scythe 1 annoyed me more lol

The laser guys are savage sure but other than that level wise I thought was more bearable

[vale gyro]

Episodes 1-4 were fine

and then 5 hit me like a truck

and the second map of 6 made me quit the WAD all together

[willow bobcat]

Bro I was lucky even getting to get e1m5 on nightmare

[woven swallow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1034984988669644872/1363746001780736051/doom18.png?ex=680726f0&is=6805d570&hm=3d3a195ded0f3d0d13abea34def1817d10ddcf516caeeb9430b76a71518ac0e9&

i can see why no likes slaughter maps
iwad: doom ii
pwad: cosmogenesis, map05
complevel: 9
download link: search it up, i apparently posted too much links according to Vega

[woven swallow]

AHHHHH DEAD CHAR

[thorn jungle]

Welcome ladies, gentlemen, nonbinaries, and inbetween. We are all gathered here to commemorate the memory of #classic-doom as it is abandoned by Doomcord

Our memories of #classic-doom will be timeless, such as our discussions of source ports, Final Doom, and our arguments about the ambiguous canonicity of SIGIL and its sequel to the Doom storyline.

We will never forget you

[azure nimbus]

This isn't true. If you are still believing that it's true, a several ten thousand monster map might not be appeopriate yet. there are far more approachable slaughter maps

[finite crag]

Startd Scythe today

Ngl this is pretty cool, beat Episode 1 on UV and it was not bad at all

[mighty star]

Scythe 2 is the hard one iirc

[woven swallow]

it will get harder...just you wait....

[forest fjord]

zero master uploaded again

never thought this day would come

very sad to hear he was injured

[woven swallow]

omg he did

thank you, for sharing this info

[pulsar drift]

Does anyone ever play on server co-op or death match? Like zandronum?

[halcyon willow]

Most weekends we roll out a game or three via TSPG

[pulsar drift]

Oh wow, I'll research on joining that, do you guys have a set time or just whenever there is a good crowd?

[halcyon willow]

It's at a fairly common time each week (Saturday evenings for UK/Europe), organised through my discord. I can send you an invite if you want.

[pulsar drift]

I'd like that very much

[finite crag]

Do I need to play through all of Doom II to start doing community made wads or is it acceptable to dive headfirst? I’m pretty sure I’ve completed doom 2 before but I don’t remember all of it

[vale gyro]

y'can ignore the IWADs for all anyone cares, really

[finite crag]

^

[halcyon willow]

Play what you wanna play

[finite crag]

Yes but what do I wanna play

[thorn jungle]

i've been told NRFTL is good (and probably not too difficult for novice doom players)

[finite crag]

I remember playing brutal doom but that’s about all I remember

Also I used to play some sort of online version of modded doom?

This was like 4 years ago lol

[thorn jungle]

Brutal Doom heavily changes core gameplay aspects, and is generally not recommended if you wanna get good at vanilla Doom

[finite crag]

Yeah brutal doom is a handful lol I remember that

[azure nimbus]

Live your own life. I suggest playing the base maps first to get a feel for the game though.

[finite crag]

Hmmm, I’ll at least run through some of doom II.

Couldn’t hurt

[thorn jungle]

try Doom 2 again on UV

trust me it'll be hell fun

[finite crag]

come on it aint that bad

We shall see

[thorn jungle]

ˢʰᵘᵗ ᵘᵖ ᵐᵃᵖ ⁹ ᵗʰᵉ ᵖⁱᵗ ᵈᵒⁿᵗ ˢᵖᵒⁱˡ ʰⁱᵐ

[finite crag]

Map 9 was a pain on zdoom ports

vanilla not so much

[thorn jungle]

for me it was just

pain

[finite crag]

elemental

[thorn jungle]

Map 9 was a pain on zdoom ports

[finite crag]

It’s gonna be fine, with the super shotgun I’ll surely make quick work of this

Let’s pretend I have time to play the whole thing

Cuz ik it takes like 6 hours

[thorn jungle]

sadly, Map 9 has no ssg so it's really bad to pistol start

[finite crag]

Do I have to pistol start?

I mean it automatically carries over the weapons right?

[thorn jungle]

no, pistol start means you start the level from complete scratch, with only a pistol, your fists, 50 bullets, and 0% armor

it's not required to pistol start

[finite crag]

Also if someone knows a way I can compose music with the doom soundfont lmk, I wanna remake Rammstein’s entire discography in doom soundfont

Wait a minute

Would that get me in legal trouble

[vale gyro]

Doom has no real soundfont, it's whatever you throw at it.
However, Doom's OST was composed on a Roland SC-55.

[finite crag]

AHA

[vale gyro]

and people just usually use the built-in Windows one

which sounds vaguely similar to the SC-55

[azure nimbus]

The vanilla maps were designed for it. Almost anything coming out today is as well. But again, up to you

[vale gyro]

Though, I'm weird and use a dual-soundfont setup.

[finite crag]

Is the sc-55 a physical product?

[vale gyro]

it was, yes

[finite crag]

How close is the windows…thing to the original?

[vale gyro]

it sounds fine enough

[finite crag]

I’ll start looking into how to compose music with that soon

[vale gyro]

well, just fire up whatever MIDI software you like

that's basically it

[finite crag]

Uh oh

[halcyon willow]

Sekaiju is the go to

[finite crag]

Uhhh… I basically don’t have any of them

[halcyon willow]

For midi composing

[finite crag]

Would sekaiju happen to be under 50 dollars?

[halcyon willow]

Yep

It's free 😉

[vale gyro]

It's better than under $50!

[halcyon willow]

Open source product

[finite crag]

Oh bless you nonprofit devs wherever you are

https://tenor.com/view/bow-bow-down-meme-bear-meme-cartoon-gif-11207927895622607641

[halcyon willow]

Legends one and all

[vale gyro]

I'm personally more of a fan of Aria Maestosa

but at the same time, I compose like one MIDI every few years

so probably better listen to people that actually do compose MIDIs

[halcyon willow]

There's bound to be other good programs, but Sekaiju is definitely the one I've seen recommended the most

And when those recommendation come from people like Certified Midi God ™️ James Paddock you listen

[finite crag]

1 and 2 complete, uv feels good so far

[sharp wyvern]

would be cool if the PSX ost got added to the DOOM + DOOM II rerelease

and plutonia midi pack

and the buckethead and thorr osts for the sigils

[mighty star]

NRFTL midi pack on rerelease would be nice

[sharp wyvern]

yeah

idk if they could add any of these with the current soundtrack switcher code tho

well they could do buckethead/thorr since it's an equal amount of songs to the midi ones

but psx and community midi packs dont line up with the original ost of those games

as in like they dont match the amount of songs

[thorn jungle]

single segment run is the term used for plays through the entirety of Doom 2, without saves, and if you die, you have to start from the beginning, right?

i jokingly called them Ultra Nightmare back then

[woven swallow]

Fawk no

Single segment runs is beating a level without any saves

[thorn jungle]

so i guess i'll still call it Ultra Nightmare

[woven swallow]

it depends, how hard is said level

[thorn jungle]

i'm exaggerating

it's probably something like Ultra UV

[woven swallow]

not really

[stuck echo]

I'm playing classic doom for the first time and keep dying, should I turn the difficulty down or use saving and loading?

[vale gyro]

Y’can do both if you wish

[stuck echo]

The dark room on level... 5? Keeps killing me

[vale gyro]

Usually, try saves first, because lowering the difficulty means a pistol start

[stuck echo]

Interesting ok

Thanks

[vale gyro]

Yeah, because you’d be starting a whole new game when you lower the difficulty

And the best you can do there is warp to the level you were on with either the level select or IDCLEV

[stuck echo]

Ok ill keep that in mind

[thorn jungle]

there's a secret little cranny to the left, with some shells and light amp goggles

[stuck echo]

I really like these Andrew Hushiult remixes

[hot owl]

Andrew Hulshult is great

[thorn jungle]

Blood Swamps, UAC Atlantica, World Spear gang?

[stuck echo]

I'm a little sad he is apparently not working on Dark Ages. Blood Swamps was a Mick Gordon level track

[woven swallow]

You’re never really gonna master doom. Sure you’ll learn how to dance with demons how to dodge, how to kill smart but in the end, it all comes down to the map. You might single segment a level here and there blind playthrough , but most of the time? It’s never that easy. Some maps demand a plan, specific moves, precise timing. No matter how many hours you pour in, you still gotta figure it out

[stuck echo]

Save and load it is, then

[vale gyro]

In my opinion, most if not all Hulshult tracks were better than Mick’s

I am not a fan of most of the work he did for Doom. I like his TNO tracks more tbh.

[woven swallow]

Yes sir

[honest vapor]

Saving and loading is the standard for the vast majority of players

[stuck echo]

Thanks for letting me know

[honest vapor]

Some people use rewinds but if you're asking this question I'm guessing you probably aren't using a port that supports it

[vale gyro]

I personally don't get rewinds outside of TAS speedruns

though, I could just be blind to something others see

[honest vapor]

Idk I've never really used it either but I know some of the best players in the world use it so idk

I guess it helps prevent frustration if you're playing a really difficult level

[vale gyro]

fair

[finite crag]

cAcA

[ruby sparrow]

guys

i beat legacy of rust !!!!

with that i beat every single classic doom & its expansions

even secret levels

[sharp wyvern]

AWESOMEE

[ruby sparrow]

it was hard but yesssssss

[sharp wyvern]

what was your favourite part of LoR

[ruby sparrow]

harder than plutonia imo

[sharp wyvern]

and what was your favourite part of classic doom overall

[ruby sparrow]

e2m6

[sharp wyvern]

oh yeah that's a really fun level

[ruby sparrow]

plutonia experiment

and worst imo is tnt evilution

[sharp wyvern]

not master levels??

[sharp wyvern]

good choice i love plutonia too

[ruby sparrow]

master levels arent bad

[vale gyro]

I actually liked it over Plutonia and Doom 2

[ruby sparrow]

i had fun with that

[vale gyro]

I genuinely just can't finish Plutonia before getting bored with it

yet again, specifically saying this to bathroom here: I'm weird.

[sharp wyvern]

i wasn't gonna comment on it lol

[sharp wyvern]

controversial but brave take

[vale gyro]

Oh, mb

[ruby sparrow]

only doom 3 left to do now 🙂

[vale gyro]

hope you have fun with that

[ruby sparrow]

when i do that i will be ready for doom the dark ages

[ruby sparrow]

ty

[vale gyro]

if you beat Doom 3 before TDA comes out

start playing as many WADs as you can

just like, mainly to see how many you can complete

[ruby sparrow]

idk if i can tbh my eyes are really tired of seeing the graphics of thisgame lol

[vale gyro]

ah

I'm weirdly never tired at looking at it

[ruby sparrow]

i have played for 70 hours

so... yeah im not gonna touch classic doom again 🙂

[vale gyro]

I got maybe very high triple digits in hours for this game

I got 16 hours on Steam alone, not counting any source ports

okay, 16 ain't much

but I rarely played on the Steam version

[sharp wyvern]

play the og one not bfg edition btw

[woven swallow]

now beat sunlust

[mighty star]

Now beat Sunder

[ruby sparrow]

wow get well soon bro

😉

[vale gyro]

I'm already well

[ruby sparrow]

is that official?

[vale gyro]

it's not like I have 13 Doom 1 copies or anything

[woven swallow]

Sunlust is 32map boom mega wad made by ribbiks, it isn’t official it’s fan made

Considering you beat all official doom levels, you should start play custom maps. I’ll suggest a lot more of you are interested

[lunar rune]

A lot of TNT is fine or good, not sure why so many people dislike it

Hell I said I disliked it before I even finished it

The run of the last 8 maps are not great though. Habitat is trash, Lunar Mining Project and Quarry are forgettable, Mount Pain is my least favourite level

Ballistyx, Last Call and River Styx are alright

Heck is like, the most mediocre Casali level ever made

Oh and Baron's Den is garbage

[median cloud]

Because it has a stretch of long boring and confusing maps

[lunar rune]

Eh. Idk if this is just experience, but I never really got lost in TNT

[mighty star]

TNT is an acquired taste

[lunar rune]

Definitely

[lunar rune]

I think only in Mill, Habitat and Mount Pain was I lost

[median cloud]

Not administration center or central processing?

I hated those maps at first

I gotta say I do like tnt as a whole a lot more now and probably prefer it over the original Doom

[lunar rune]

Those are literally my favourite maps from TNT

No, I didn't get lost in them. I knew where I was going, and the variety of exploration was great to me

[ruby sparrow]

so u like it or no lol

[ruby sparrow]

these are the most memorable shitty ones that made me hate tnt evilution

and 'mill' omg its so bad