classic-doom

[lapis wolf]

Fun fact; 2016 Multiplayer had Maykr and Empyrean maps

Even Maykr statues

There was even a multiplayer map very similar to Super Gore Nest and another very similar to Blood Swamps.

Like Eternal before Eternal was hidden in 2016's multiplayer

It's just I don't think DOOM 1993 having a great first episode and nothing else is enough to put it as a top tier DOOM game

Especially since basically every other DOOM game has way higher peaks.

Could even make the case for DOOM 3 having higher peaks than 1993 because Doom 3 has the best Hell depiction and Hell levels out of every DOOM IMO.

Especially the Hell section on Lost Mission

Though I think my point is a bit different from KinuckleNuts tbf

[shrewd cipher]

thats kinda sick shows they always planned to have giant game of thrones level lore

[lapis wolf]

Idk if this is a hottake, but Maykr drones are god tier enemies.

Top 5 favorite enemies in the whole series

So many ways to kill them, and you get rewarded with endless blood punch chains and you aren't forced to use the chainsaw 24/7 if you're efficient at killing them.

[shrewd cipher]

do people really not like Makyr drones?

[lapis wolf]

They're a great enemy at rewarding and encouraging headshots without forcing you too, because they still die really fast from body shots

[shrewd cipher]

theyre the easiest kills in the game and its free ammo

[lapis wolf]

They're some of the greatest enemy design I've seen in an FPS and they look cool

[shrewd cipher]

only bad part of headshotting it is no GK

[lapis wolf]

Also since they drop so much health and stuff, you get basically infinite blood punches aka Classic DOOM style Berserk

Also they just refuel all your blood punches instantly anyway

[shrewd cipher]

true, theyre really good in general

[lapis wolf]

Also blood punching their heads even gives you the rewards lmao

So you don't even need to shoot lol

[lapis wolf]

True. Them and the blood Maykrs have some of the best glory kills

And especially chainsaw kills

Wait no, regular Maykr glory kills are okay, but I love the chainsaw kills

Blood Maykr glory kills are GOATed but nearly impossible without the silver bullet cheat code.

[lapis wolf]

Blood Maykr chainsaw kills are unfortunately recycled from Revenant and Whiplash but still pretty cool nonetheless.

[cursive cipher]

Your aim must be godawful if chaingunners are surviving your SSG lol

[lapis wolf]

Nah, spread is bad on SSG from mid to far, which is where you'll see them most of the time

[cursive cipher]

Also wild take on the chainsaw
The classic doom chainsaw is ass 😭
But I can get why people don't like the eternal one, though that's more of an issue with the design surrounding it imo

[lapis wolf]

This isn't the 64 SSG that can snipe with tight spread

[cursive cipher]

But... then you shouldn't be using the SSG to begin with 😅

[lapis wolf]

The 1993/DOOM II kinda sucks, but the 64 one is a huge buff

[cursive cipher]

Yeah Doom 64 chainsaw is cracked

That second blade isn't just for show lol

[lapis wolf]

SSG is great at mid range most of the time, just not against chaingunners

Also even up close, the SSG will kill the chaingunners grouped up at the front, but the guys more in the back will still survive

You can even see it all the time in playthroughs, even on Decino playthroughs

DOOM 64 SSG would most likely destroy chaingunners though from basically any distance, especially since it has lower cool down

[cursive cipher]

Anyway one thing I do like about the Eternal chainsaw is its commitment to its role
Like in 2016 the chainsaw was this weird 1-shot weapon where it had rare fuel and generally... well it was basically the crucible from Eternal, and the crucible is ass as a mechanic
Really solidifying it as the ammo thing I think makes it have a much clearer role, along with the changes like automatic refill and the instant swing instead of having to bring it out

[lapis wolf]

Also I found out that DOOM 64 enemies are actually bigger, which also partly explains why the 64 SSG seems to be better at hitting most-all the pellets, or hitting enemies from further away

[lapis wolf]

I like the way Shadow Warrior 3 did ammo the most, where the katana is an actual weapon, but doesn't lock you into animations

Eternal could learn from that IMO

Also the elemental charge ups of SW3's katana are pure kino.

[lapis wolf]

It's funny that people hate on 64 SSG for lacking a reload animation, when it does literally everything else better than DOOM II's.

I don't get why people think the animation is make it or break all lol

[cursive cipher]

Because the animation is like 90% of the identity lol

I don't think anyone's hating on it because it's bad

That thing's cracked

[violet sundial]

Omg caughtyard was awful

It never occurred to me that I could have taken the lift to get upstairs and deal with those revenants directly though, that probably would have been pretty effective with the plasma rifle

[lapis wolf]

Eh...

64 SSG sounds a lot punchier and the slide back effect and sound is super satisfying

[violet sundial]

I just ran in circles and launched rockets at them

[lapis wolf]

That means more to me than the animation

[lapis wolf]

I love Courtyard wtf

[violet sundial]

caughtyard in plutonia

[cursive cipher]

Aesthetically my favourite Doom is probably 2016. It just feels like it really nails the aesthetic
Eternal is also great but it goes a little off the rails. I love how 2016 committed more to sci-fi and Eternal's plot kinda shits on itself towards the end

[violet sundial]

m1 of the second part

[lapis wolf]

Oh haven't played it

Or maybe I have. I never looked up the names for Plutonia maps

[cursive cipher]

But like, yk
Classic doom is classic doom
You can't really get more doom than that

[violet sundial]

M7

[lapis wolf]

I agree, and 2016 also has my favorite gun designs and gun sounds, as well as glory kill sound effects

They sound and look the heaviest, punchiest, loudest, and most practical in 2016

[violet sundial]

I think doom 2016 is my favorite bc it revived doom and doom is my second favorite bc without it there's no doom at all

[cursive cipher]

I do appreciate how Eternal references the original games a lot more heavily
Classic mancs and Cybies and soldiers, hell yeah

[lapis wolf]

DOOM 2016 is the perfect hybrid of Classic DOOM, DOOM 3, and the direction that Eternal headed towards

Also it has SnapMaps. I have played many really amazing SnapMaps

SnapMaps aren't as flexible as Custom WADs but there's still some incredible stuff that's been made

[cursive cipher]

But yeah I really respect what Eternal went for in its gameplay loop, and I'd say it largely succeeded
But imo they give you too much shit to keep track of... two grenade types and flame belch and blood punch and you always have to look at your armour and see if the chainsaw is ready and ugh

Could have done to be quite streamlined

Not armour, ammo lol

[lapis wolf]

Also felt Eternal's levels got way too long and drawnout a lot of the times.

They also cut out most-all exploration elements that even 2016 had.

There's no levels like Argent Facility, Foundry, Argent Bridge, or Resource Ops on Eternal

But Eternal itself has some extremely satisfying combos and movement you can do, and I like the way they encourage you to use all your tools

[cursive cipher]

Idr 2016 level design well enough to comment on that
Eternal is really linear tho yeah

[cursive cipher]

Yea! Even if I don't quite have the dexterity for it all heh

[lapis wolf]

Some of the new enemies aren't very good either lol.

Especially Blood Maykrs from the DLCs

I like the returning enemies like Pain Elementals and Archviles though

[cursive cipher]

they're alright in concept but they can be annoying lol

still better execution than the marauder tho

[lapis wolf]

Though tbh I actually prefer the DOOM II Archvile over Eternal's

[cursive cipher]

one thing I really like about them is even though they're completely different than their original incarnations (on account of that design wouldn't work in Eternal), they still maintain the same threat and priority level as they used to which I think it really great

[lapis wolf]

Yeah Marauder sucks.

Especially since he's quite dysfunctional with his AI behavior and faltering LOL.

Even when he does function correctly, he's just really really easy, but lame at the same time

[cursive cipher]

they're different but that doesn't mean they're pushovers

[cursive cipher]

WHY DOES HE HAVE SO MUCH HEALTH
like, it's a cool idea, I like the idea they had with him
but between how inconsistent he is and how long it takes to kill him... ugh

at least they wouldn't make a boss that's just a big marauder with like 10 times the health to kill... right?

[lapis wolf]

Also Marauder looks kinda dumb IMO.

I do have a hottake of liking Carcasses though. They look like funny Toy Story goofballs and I love blowing up their shields with the Plasma Rifle

[cursive cipher]

oh I love carcasses

[lapis wolf]

Also they give you free blood punches

[cursive cipher]

?

[lapis wolf]

Because glory killing a heavy demon gives you a free blood punch, and they're really easy to knock to glory kill state/stagger

[cursive cipher]

I see

[lapis wolf]

Hell even one blood punch staggers him, so you waste a blood punch to get a blood punch back

You have to be careful though, he can beyblade you easily

[cursive cipher]

they can be annoying in numbers though lol

shields EVERYWHERE

[lapis wolf]

I like and hate the shields at the same time.

I like them because of blowing them up, but hate them because they slow your movement lol

[cursive cipher]

chat
it has come to my attention
we are no longer discussing classic DOOM...

[lapis wolf]

We are discussing all DOOMs tbf

[cursive cipher]

anyway, eternal is pretty fun and did a lot of things really well and some other things not so great and is overall definitely a videogame

[cursive cipher]

true...

[lapis wolf]

Definitely the video game of all time

[vapid igloo]

i have a question

[lapis wolf]

Why is DOOM II and 64 GOATed?

[vapid igloo]

every time i close doom, it asks me to buy doom and call 1-800idgames

but when i call the number, it says its not in service

[cursive cipher]

lmao

yeah I don't think they're distributing the floppies anymore lol

[vapid igloo]

but how do i legally get the game?

i dont want to go to jail

[cursive cipher]

ok first of all I am extremely curious as to how you're playing the version you are

but also like
just get it on steam or whatever

[vapid igloo]

with my windows dos

[cursive cipher]

your what?
that doesn't quite answer everything lol

DOS emulator on Windows? or just MS DOS?
Where did you get the actual game from? Download? Original floppy?

I'm losing it because you seem to me like someone who just woke up from a 30-year nap and were like oh boy let's play that cool DOOM game I bought

[vapid igloo]

its from a wad file

[cursive cipher]

but honey where did you get the wad 😆

[vapid igloo]

from the doom folder

[cursive cipher]

[vapid igloo]

is it because i am using the ultimate doom?

should i use the original instead?

[cursive cipher]

I am so confused and cannot tell if you are trolling or not lol
where did you download DOOM from?

[vapid igloo]

the interwebs

[cursive cipher]

what episodes do you have available? just e1?

[lapis wolf]

What I find funny is, this is a classic Doom server, but everyone's talking about how 2016 is the goat and their favorite.... and not 1993, II, or 64 lol

[vapid igloo]

it goes up to thy flesh consumed

[cursive cipher]

idk if 2016 is my "favourite"
overall, at least. I love it aesthetically but idr it well enough to say I like it the best overall
I remember the balance was fucked lol

and you can play all of them?

[vapid igloo]

yes

[cursive cipher]

and you didn't pay?

[vapid igloo]

no

how do i pay

[lapis wolf]

True but other people were saying it's their favorite lol

[cursive cipher]

I see
sounds like you downloaded a pirated copy
not a big deal, old game, very cheap
but if you want to get it officially for your conscience, I'd recommend buying it on Steam

it's like 5 bucks, and you'll get your proper license for the game

[lapis wolf]

I prefer 2016 Cyberdemon over the Classic design.

I know it's heresy lol

[novel estuary]

I do too

cyberdemon fight was probably my favourite moment in 2016

[cursive cipher]

all that stuff you see when you close the game about licensing it is long defunct lol, that's for when it was originally released in the 90s

[cursive cipher]

it's a good design, and classic cybie wouldn't work as well in the context of 2016's

[lapis wolf]

I also prefer Classic Cyberdemon over Eternal Tyrant in its design.

Something about the modern graphics makes the classic Cyberdemon lose some of his charm and intimidation

[vapid igloo]

i have a question

[lapis wolf]

Also he doesn't have the super loud ass stomping anymore

[vapid igloo]

im having trouble with doom 1, its too dificult

should i lower my difficulty?

[cursive cipher]

play on a lower difficulty

yeah

what are you playing on?

[vapid igloo]

im doing nightmare, and i keep on dying at the end of the first episode no matter what i do

[lapis wolf]

Are you playing on Nightmare?

....or atleast fast monsters enabled Ultra Violence?

[vapid igloo]

i havent been saving cause i consider it cheating

[cursive cipher]

oh my god this guy is incredible

[lapis wolf]

Nightmare was a joke difficulty. It was meant to be impossible

[cursive cipher]

dude you're killing me, I love it

[lapis wolf]

Though it's technically still possible

[cursive cipher]

they said they're dying at the end of the first episode
the one with the forced death exit 😭

[vapid igloo]

i was able to beat every level up until the end of episode 1

[cursive cipher]

I'm so glad I'm here to experience this

[vapid igloo]

its not impossible if you have been playing for as long as me

[cursive cipher]

this guy's been grinding Doom 1 since 1993

[lapis wolf]

By end you mean during the Baron and Spectre fight?

...or do you mean afterwards?

[cursive cipher]

he doesn't even know about the other games

[vapid igloo]

i know about them

i played doom 2 on my friends pc

[cursive cipher]

doom 2 hell on earth

[vapid igloo]

watch your language

[lapis wolf]

Lmfao

[lapis wolf]

Don't cuss bro

This is a kids only server

[vapid igloo]

is there any modifications i can do to remove the screen when i close doom?

[lapis wolf]

DOOM Eternal

DOOM Eternal was the true 1994 release.

The one called Hell on Earth was an Adult Swim bootleg.

[cursive cipher]

get a source port

why am I giving this guy genuine answers lol
dude you're so good at this

fuck i've gotten cut off twice now lol

[cursive cipher]

I also prefer it, not because of "modern graphics" but just small details, which ofc lends to a small preference
tbh it's mainly just I think the fine wiring in the chest of the original is cooler than the thicker tubing the new one has lol. the rest is pretty whatever
otherwise i'm just glad to see the old face in HD

[lapis wolf]

There's small differences yeah.

The eyes on the classic are more spread apart and evil looking for example

I also prefer the more archaic weapons the demons of the classics use. The more b movie esque stuff.

Eternal's demonic weapons look too futuristic and fancy tbh

I prefer the horse hooves of the OG Cyberdemon too

[cursive cipher]

anyway, older topic
something I wanted to say
I like how combat is in classic doom, where it feels like you have more options in how you approach things and the environment plays a bigger role... like in Eternal the arena is kinda just a little playground for you to move around in as you dodge and stuff, and how you kill an enemy is is often largely the same, you just focus on one guy and quickly combo him to death and switch to someone else
in classic Doom the arena completely defines the fight and how you approach it, the enemy composition and cover available and stuff is instrumental to how you approach things which I think is really cool

[cursive cipher]

#general message
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1214741799026036827/1226969068389662721/image.png

both designs go hard ofc
tbh if you just swapped the tubing for wiring and the feet back to hooves I'd say the tyrant sweeps

anyway, uhhhhh
I came into this chat to ask something and got completely sidetracked 😅
I was gonna say, recommendations for source ports that make the same secret found noise as the Unity port?

[lapis wolf]

I also prefer the classic gun and eyes

[lapis wolf]

True

[cursive cipher]

eyes is whatever, gun I can get behind
but it's not as big a deal as the other points

to me

[simple oak]

H.6vh

[cursive cipher]

true

[lapis wolf]

I just realized the classic Cyberdemon looks like a grandpa, and the Tyrant looks like his son lol

[cursive cipher]

I can't say I can tell where you got that from but it's funny so I'll roll with it

[vast reef]

ur supposed to..

[lapis wolf]

Idk , the classic one looks like a grumpier older version to me Lmao.

[vast reef]

atp its very possible

[lapis wolf]

He's probably jealous his son is more agile and fancier looking

[vast reef]

nightmare's batshit difficulty can be fun

[finite crag]

classic cyberdemon looks like my dog fr

[lapis wolf]

I know. Zero Master has 100% speedran it various times

[cursive cipher]

more agile? the classic cybie has the fastest walking speed in the game, save only for the archvile. the DE Tyrant can't even turn around to face you consistently lol

[vast reef]

no no dont use zero master that man is inhuman

i mean ive seen mid-high skill level players beat nm

[lapis wolf]

Have you seen his jumps and leaps on Final Sin across ledges and to higher ledges?

[cursive cipher]

ok true

[lapis wolf]

They're ridiculous

[cursive cipher]

he's agile when he wants to be lol

[vast reef]

its still hard as nails just that people beating nm isnt crazy impossible anymore

[lapis wolf]

He probably doesn't feel like he has to be most of the time.

Which is foolish because he's facing Doomguy

[vapid igloo]

I have a question

[lapis wolf]

And Doomguy is way more ridiculous than he used to be

[cursive cipher]

you're just full of those aren't you?

[vapid igloo]

How can I get doom 2?

Steam will not run on my personal computer

[lapis wolf]

You have to go through a weird system of buying and completing The Ancient Gods Part 1 first, then you'll gain access to play DOOM Eternal from 1994

Yeah Hugo Romero is a weird designer

[cursive cipher]

this is actually an interesting problem lol, how could you get a legitimate copy of Doom II today if you don't have a machine that can run Steam?

[lapis wolf]

Or Xbox One/Switch

[cursive cipher]

like ig you could buy it through the Steam website but I don't think you can actually download it through there, can you?

[lapis wolf]

Meanwhile I still struggle with UV fast monsters.

Though UV fast monsters is still fun

[cursive cipher]

actually nah there's probably some online retailer where you can download the wad and executable straight from a webpage, right?

[lapis wolf]

Tho tbf I haven't played fast monsters all that much lol

[lapis wolf]

Not sure tbh

[hardy vessel]

you can buy from GOG, and download the installer from the web site, no client install needed.

i would recommend buying ANY game from there, since they only offer non-DRM games.

[vast reef]

gog is so based

[hardy vessel]

They are the ast line of defense agains borderline malware drm/denuvo type shit, and licencing bullshit. You buy from GOG, you own the copy. You buy from from anywhere else, you own nothing but the rights to read an EULA

(Steam does sell some "drm-less"" games)

[vale gyro]

Doom is technically an example of one

As the IWADs are the really only essential item

[hardy vessel]

have you tried the siren mod for doom ii?

[vale gyro]

Nah

I don’t mess with GZ often

[lapis wolf]

Shareware Silver is the best skin of Eternal.

I prefer it over the 1993 Classic skin

[hardy vessel]

i suspected as much, you are semi purist

[lapis wolf]

Why TF is Arc Complex so damn timeless?

Has there been Arc Complex remade in a wad?

True, I'd imagine it would be a more basic and abstract version of Arc Complex

Which might actually be more fun perhaps now that I think about it

Imagine the Slayer Gate area with a double classic Cyberdemon, jeez that would be brutal

[lapis wolf]

Or equally fun in different ways

Also probably wouldn't be possible on the Unity port, unless it's EXTREMELY simplified

[hard wolf]

Because the entire game's timeless.

[lapis wolf]

But IDK, Back to Saturn X Episode 2 is playable and performs really well on the Unity port, and that WAD is fucking insane, huge, and expansive as all fucking hell

[lapis wolf]

Yeah, Arc Complex is my favorite level though

Followed by either Final Sin or the two Nekravols.

But I like Super Gore Nest, Mars Core, and Blood Swamps as well.

[cursive cipher]

I think you mean it's... eternal

[hard wolf]

Silly me.

[lapis wolf]

All DOOM is Eternal tbf.

Yes even DOOM 3.

Also Resurrection of Evil expansion for DOOM 3 is fucking awesome

Lost Mission has GOATed Hell depiction and level

Yeah some levels are like 2-3 hours. Like even longer than Eternal's levels

[lapis wolf]

Atleast if you go for 100% and get lost a lot, because the levels get really confusing

I'm also not a super pro at classic DOOM, so you might beat them much faster, but even Decino took like an hour and a half for some of them.

I played a bit of Freedoom

I couldn't get into it, because of the mobile controls LMAO

https://youtu.be/ouCK79H9_aA?si=yLLRMFVYHId7QFaa

This is so fucking bonkers for a Unity port add on. Decino taking an hour and 40 minutes.

It's 100%ing but still lol

Nice. I saw some gameplay of better versions and it looked pretty cool

[lapis wolf]

Some of my favorite aesthetics, atmosphere, and MIDIs ever too

True. I think there was another free DOOM type game that got people into DOOM as well, but I can't remember what it is
.... and no, I'm not talking about Episode 1/Shareware lol

Nice

[lapis wolf]

Woah researching this and it's supposedly the biggest vanilla wad map of all time

Holy phuck

Phuck and fuck

[violet sundial]

I wish I had homing rockets

[hard wolf]

I love the Cyberdemons with homing rockets, it was a real shock the first time.

[lapis wolf]

Wait what?

[violet sundial]

Haven't seen those yet, thanks

[hard wolf]

Yeah, I was playing one of the mods, I think it was on the PS4 and was like "Oh crap!"

[violet sundial]

I hope they aren't in Plutonia, because these levels are already horrible enough as it is

I think it's mostly because of mobile controls though, circle strafing is practically impossible

[lapis wolf]

Plutonia just has normal enemies

What do y'all rank favorite to least favorite Cacodemon designs?

For me:

1. DOOM 1993/DOOM III Cacodemon: 10/10: Perfection

2. DOOM 2016 Cacodemon: 9.5/10: So damned awesome, but doesn't compare to the classic Caco

3. DOOM Eternal Cacodemon: 9/10: Amazing Caco

4. DOOM 64 Cacodemon: 5/10: He's not a bad Cacodemon design, but he's not a good one either

5. DOOM 3 Cacodemon: 1/10: No, just, no. Not a real Cacodemon.

[violet sundial]

Is it possible to rate classic Caco 0/10 or even lower?

Caco hiss is probably one of my least favorite noises in the game

[ebon crane]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1159461005672321057/1239147618328776745/image.png?ex=6641dda6&is=66408c26&hm=b290a1d1fedd840cc95ec5bc6c9e6fb4b214dfa7e13663da109653a383ad60b6&
hmm

[ebon crane]

de is 8/10, 2016 is 7/10, doom 64 is.. 5/6 /10.. havent really looked at him much

[violet sundial]

Doom 64 caco is kind of goofy and doesn't even look scary or dangerous

Even doom 3 caco fiend is still scary, even if not dangerous

[lapis wolf]

You can't look at a hiss

His look is perfect

[lapis wolf]

It's just a Pain Elemental with two eyes

[lapis wolf]

Oh wait he has one eye, it just kinda looks like two for some reason

The true GOAT is the Astral Dreadnought from DnD, the original inspiration for the Cacodemon, but y'all ain't ready for that conversation.

[lapis wolf]

I think I'd give Eternal's an 8/10 too, but his expressions are so goofy sometimes, I can't help but make it a 9.

[ebon crane]

fair

[violet sundial]

He might be perfect he pogged in game

[lapis wolf]

2016's lighting makes him look really cool in-game IMO

[lapis wolf]

Also look at his smug ass face, it's hilarious and perfect

[lapis wolf]

My least favorite is the Arachnotron and Spiderdemon stomping and shooting, especially if there's a bunch of them at once, like The Spirit World.

[ebon crane]

wha

the big eye and pain elementals sound are really cute tho

[lapis wolf]

Why say what?

[ebon crane]

spirit world..?

[lapis wolf]

Map 28 from DOOM II

[lapis wolf]

Pain Elementals sound so funny.

I also prefer how DOOM II Pain Elementals look over Eternal. They're funnier and more charming somehow

[ebon crane]

duh

[ebon crane]

uhh..

[lapis wolf]

Tbh I thought you were just surprised I hated all the Arachnotron and Spider Mastermind stomping sound effects

They get so obnoxious and hurt my ears lol

[lapis wolf]

It's a great level IMO

[ebon crane]

i forgot it

[lapis wolf]

What DOOM II levels do you remember?

[finite crag]

dead simple😌

[lapis wolf]

I remember DOOM 2016 remade that fight on Necropolis

[finite crag]

ik

pretty cool

[ebon crane]

like the first 10 at most

[lapis wolf]

Damn. I wonder why?

[finite crag]

doom 2's first 12 or so levels are the best imo after that it kind of falls off

[ebon crane]

guh

[lapis wolf]

I think drops then it picks up again around Map 15, then drops around Map 19, then comes back around again

[finite crag]

True

I usually only play the game till around map 15, and then I get bored of it

[lapis wolf]

Me with 1993 once I reach Episode 2 lol

[lapis wolf]

Imagine if Eternal did it, with the Arachnotrons and stuff

[finite crag]

I prefer episodes 2 and 3 over episode 1 in the doom 1993 for some reason

[finite crag]

I haven't played eternal so ehhh

[lapis wolf]

Wait really?

[lapis wolf]

Oh. Interesting.

Episode 3 has one of my favorite maps which is Mt Erebus though.

[finite crag]

yes

[lapis wolf]

Damn.

[finite crag]

Liked that one, although the fire-blue walls of some buildings look ugly, it does it the hell theme

[finite crag]

It's just not my kind of game

[lapis wolf]

True. Overuse of Fireblu

[lapis wolf]

New DOOM in general?

Or just Eternal?

[finite crag]

I played through 2016, I enjoyed it, but eternal just looks to cartoony for me and from what I have heard it's a power fantasy witch idk just seems a bit silly to me.

maybe I would try the game if I got it on sale

[lapis wolf]

That's fair.

Though I'd say 2016 and Eternal are both power fantasies.

[finite crag]

True

But the originals also are in a sense

[lapis wolf]

Maybe you thought Eternal looks too far and overboard with the power fantasy elements?

But 2016 and Classics balanced power fantasy with other elements better?

[finite crag]

Probably

[finite crag]

I watch some gameplay of eternal where in one level, there are logs you can access of a researcher analyzing doom guy

and as the level progressed to kept on referring to him as a more and more powerful being

Witch kind of just felt silly to me

[lapis wolf]

Oh yeah, also the girl sounds like she finds Doomguy super hot

With her delivery

[finite crag]

Could you blame her really?

[lapis wolf]

Yes. I'm a Cacodemon and I have bias against Doomguy

[finite crag]

lol

[lapis wolf]

But I didn't like how Eternal Doomguy is blessed by some Divinity Machine to make him some super God.

2016 made him appear as a freak of nature, but it was vague and mysterious and didn't make ridiculous details like that lol

[finite crag]

I liked the idea of a normal space marine having to fight through hells forces

I mean, if you are going to make a story surrounding a god fighting demons, you might as well just rewrite the bible

[lapis wolf]

2016 Doomguy since it was vague, just made it seem like Doomguy got better and more powerful through training and experience.

But Eternal's like "no he went in to a machine that granted him God powers"

[finite crag]

true

[lapis wolf]

I prefer the 2016 and Classic Doomguy route as well

[finite crag]

I wonder what doom 3's story is like

[lapis wolf]

DOOM 3 was kinda like 2016 in terms of story except you play as a different marine that isn't Doomguy

[finite crag]

Interesting

[lapis wolf]

But there's depictions/artwork and codex to be found of the original Doomguy fighting in the past

[finite crag]

thats cool

[lapis wolf]

DOOM 2016 also references DOOM 3

True. It's pretty cool

[finite crag]

I heard that a lot of IDs games reference each other in ways. Like I read somewhere that commander keen is the guy from wolfenstein's grandson or something

(I could be wrong)

[lapis wolf]

Blazkowicz (Wolfenstein dude) is also Doomguy's long descendant

[finite crag]

Crazy

I mean they kind of look simular in a way

[finite crag]

so doomguy had a kid?

who's the mom?

[finite crag]

there is a photo of his family in eternal I think

where you can see his wife and kid

[lapis wolf]

I heard the kid is actually Doomguy himself and that's why it doesn't show the dad's face.

The part where the dad's face is broken/torn

[finite crag]

Interesting

[lapis wolf]

Not Ancestor.

Blazkowicz is the ancestor.

[finite crag]

And that's why it takes me a while to decipher family trees.

[lapis wolf]

Also Hugo talked about his parents being dead, so it'd make sense if the kid was Doomguy

[lapis wolf]

Lol

[finite crag]

I still think it's cool that Doom II kinda started cuz Doomguys pet died.

I'd definitely try to save earth if extra terrestrial beings took and ate my dog.

[lapis wolf]

Wait it seems like the dad in the family photo is Doomguy, looking into it

So his son and wife died then

Some theorize that he ripped his face off the image because he feels guilty he couldn't save them

Or that he feels like he's not the man he used to be and that feels like a monster now

[finite crag]

poor guy

[lapis wolf]

Yeah also, when you say Daisy easter eggs throughout the levels like Nekravol. It's actually Doomguy hallucinating.

And the screams you hear in Nekravol is him hallucinating his son and wife's screams

I don't remember exactly, but Hugo Martin talked about this in a stream

I think he also said the demons try to troll him and cause illusions about Daisy showing up and hearing his wife and son's screams

I'd have to watch the streams again, I could be misremembering some of the details

Then you have Samuel Hayden controlling Doomguy and teleporting him around everywhere beyond his own will.

Like Doomguy's such a tragic character, even if the tone of the game doesn't make it feel like he is .

[finite crag]

Damn

That's actually so sad

So is that what the Kan maker meant when she said she could remove his pain

[finite crag]

Part 1 or part 2

[lapis wolf]

I think both

[lapis wolf]

It's even deeper than this. But I'll probably stop here

[lapis wolf]

Khan Maykr also mentioned his home dimension or hinted at it, IIRC

[finite crag]

I never thought doom lore went so deep

It's actually pretty clever, how the lore isn't really required to get into the series, but how it's there for the people willing to actually find it out

[finite crag]

I think it goes deeper than you think.

[lapis wolf]

That's what they're saying

[ebon crane]

or maybe it isnt lmao

[lapis wolf]

Huh?

[ebon crane]

is it.. confirmed or smth? .w.

[finite crag]

I just played Doom 1993 again on my Steam Deck.
Very fun and engaging after the first 2 levels of Episode 1.

[violet sundial]

Plutonia M10 is sooo scummy

Me, casually telling plutonia to f off nonstop:

Just nonstop archvile resurrections

[gusty bobcat]

it only gets better from there

[glad hazel]

So im done with sigil2 100kills/items/secrets on uv+fast monsters saveless pistol starts

That was tough

5hrs of tries in e6m1

[gusty bobcat]

jesus christ thats horrifying

[violet sundial]

Why

Take that archviles

[celest coyote]

Boy I sure love my Khan Makyr in classic doom

[finite crag]

dang I forgot how fun 1993 doom is

I'm now on E1M7

[autumn widget]

Finished the first 3 episodes, on e4 rn and this is complete BS in a fun way

I did 2016 then eternal then ancient gods then I'm doing 93-resurection, very weird order but whatever

[violet sundial]

I found the secret level for plutonia

Archviles in the walls, surely won't have nightmares from this

I finally figured out how to 2hko cyberdemons with the bfg

[violet sundial]

I'm pretty inconsistent about it though

wtf is e32

[void hemlock]

git gud

to me I agree E4 is the worst but you'll get better at them

I'll say E4M2 despite what everyone says isn't the worst map in terms of difficulty IMO

[violet sundial]

Well yeah I mean e32 of plutonia exists

[lapis wolf]

Hugo Martin talked about it in a couple DOOM Eternal streams with Josh.

[finite crag]

i'm on E1M7 of the 1993 doom how much more is left

[violet sundial]

3 more episodes lol

[autumn widget]

im on e12 of doom 2 now

[vale gyro]

1 map and 3 episodes to be more precise

well, he’s more than likely already done with E1 now

[void hemlock]

27 maps left including the one you're on

@celest coyote I have a question about source ports, what does DSDA improve over the current version of PrBoom+? Is there any new improved features?

[rich comet]

Hi

[ebon crane]

i see

[cursive cipher]

started No Rest for the Living, rather liking it I must say
just beat map 5, with the secret level. I'd keep going but it's pretty late and my dad is yelling at me to go to bed 😔

[ebon crane]

trol

[lapis wolf]

?

[ebon crane]

nothin

[azure nimbus]

openGL support that is indistinguishable from software mode. Basically, doom looks good in software mode and has since the beginning. But opengl is faster. But recently, openGL has been improved so that DSDA's version of openGL looks identical. This vastly improves performance while not sacrificing looks(this especially improves lighting and how spectres look). DSDA also has controller support, a spattering of QoL features and most importantly: mbf21 support. DSDA is in many ways the direct successor of prb+ so I see little reason to play prb+ at this point unless you've always been on prb+ and are used to the (reportedly) very slightly different mouse sensitivity

[celest coyote]

Yea this. Also not sure if prb+ has the rewind feature like DSDA does, but a lot of players seem to like that ability to turn back time in real-time without having to reload a save file. Helps with practicing runs and general undo applications in video doom gamin

[violet sundial]

Finally cleared go 2 it

Now I'm afraid the rest of the game will seem easy lol

[finite crag]

Just revisited SNES Classic Doom.

Of course they made the blood GREEN

[gusty bobcat]

Certainly Doom is a timeless game, but PrBoom+ is also not maintained anymore, too. Then, DSDA in practice is PrBoom+, not really in terms of source code continuity necessarily, but in how it is the Classic Doom go-to for the core of the community, being not only the most compatible but also the one at the forefront of the Classic Doom source port development circles, next to GZDoom in a weird way, it is a big pioneer of new features that become the norm of the Doom audience, i.e. UMAPINFO (even though that was started in PrBoom+um), MBF21, DSDHacked, and probably more that I'm forgetting right now.

[finite crag]

i think nintendo just wanted doom to be "family friendly"

killing demons is a great experience for kids i guess

[cursive cipher]

these guys have got real fucken funny secret ideas huh

"here's a hidden wall you can lower revealing... 5 armour bonuses!"

"here's an archvile guarding a wall you can lower for a chainsaw, two health bonuses and a cacodemon"

thanks

[cursive cipher]

huh
that's a new one

can't say I've ever seen Doom... crash

[lapis wolf]

Eternal does it sometimes for me, but it's rare.

And 2016 did it once or twice.

But I don't think 1993, DOOM II, 64, or DOOM 3 ever crashed for me.

[hard wolf]

Doom Eternal used to crash something terrible before the first patch. I beat the game from start to finish with no problem, the the issues occurred after hat, when I tried to go back and reload completed levels.

[ebon crane]

i dont think it has for me

[cursive cipher]

chat, what's a rundown of modern source port options for dummies?

[ebon crane]

...just use gzdoom or boom

for more original feeling ports, theres chocolate and crispy doom

[cursive cipher]

isn't boom like, ancient lol

I mean more from like an educational perspective

[ebon crane]

so what?

its still (sorta) popular in modding!

ohhh boom

well, idk .w.

just ise gzdoom like a normal person and youll be fine

and chocolate or crispy for a more og feel

[remote cedar]

DSDA-DOOM for vanilla, GZDoom for modded, Zandronum for online play and/or modded

[ebon crane]

i mean not just zandronum but yes it is most popular

for online play youll need doom explorer too tho

[remote cedar]

Oh right

Or Doomseeker, which I've always used

[ebon crane]

okay

[celest coyote]

GZDoom for mods, DSDA-Doom for vanilla

that's become somewhat the standard for doom these days if you wanna keep it easy

some people switch between woof and dsda for preferences, because I think woof does blood corrections? and a few other things, but nothing that really ever swayed me into trying it out

[ebon crane]

im gonna be honest here, ive never heard of dsda doom lmao

[remote cedar]

It's a fork of PrBoom+ that's more or less made for speedrunning

DSDA stands for Doom Speedrun Demo Archive iirc

[azure nimbus]

While it's made for speedrunning, that just means that it plays like classic doom with a timer and demo features if you need. It's for speedrunners and casual players alike, especially if you like recording gameplay

[ebon crane]

speaking of
how do you even make a demo

[azure nimbus]

It depends on your launcher, or if you do a batch file. Some launcher let you use a dropdown menu. On ZDL, I type -record <demoname> into the extra commands line. Importantly, I made sure to set my compatability mode to the appropriate setting(whenever you download a pwad, it'll tell you the number(usually 2,9,11, or 21. Basically different variants of doom engines that fit different maps)

So -complevel 9 -record nosp21 for example.

Oh and -warp ## to jump to the correct level.I like using ZDL 3-1.1, but there are a host of other launchers that require less typing. With that said, learning 3 commands is enough to do everything: complevel, warp, and record.

It sounds really daunting, but as someone who played doom before knowing how to make folders, it's really not that bad.

gz has a reputation for being easier and I don't really buy it: DSDA is just as easy to set up broadly and has what I'd call way more reasonable default settings

[vast reef]

gz has option search

[azure nimbus]

I'd prefer a far shorter menu than needing to know the name of the thing I'm looking for or sift through hundreds of settings

[vast reef]

yeah thats fair

[finite crag]

just completed episode one

it was really fun

[ebon crane]

if only i knew anything about the command line shit
(ive never opened it before)

[vale gyro]

Learn about using the command line, it might save you one day (computer wise)

[ebon crane]

guh okay

[vale gyro]

You might break something and you may need to use the command line

Sometimes you just get basic information on what to type in and you’ll be stuck

I personally got used to it with Doom, actually

Ok, what I should really say is that you should learn not to be scared of it, I guess

Even then, Doom-wise it’s a good idea what each parameter does

[manic meteor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkYcHqdJMp4

[cursive cipher]

oh man I totally forgot about Woof's blood corrections...

for context
I've spent most of my time on the fucken, Unity port lol
because like it works!
I tried Woof after people pushing me to but I uh.. I...
I don't like the sound effect it makes when you find a secret... it's nowhere near as satisfying as the one used in the Unity port
and tbh the only thing I really don't like about the Unity port is the retextured medikits. Which I'm pretty sure is a WAD thing anyway but, well soon enough I'll run out of levels from the add-ons menu to play and have to move to a port that supports loading custom pWADs more easily lol

[hexed escarp]

are memento mori 1 and 2 any good?

[hexed escarp]

you could probably make a wad that autoloads that replaces the secret sound

im not entirely sure how woof handles it

i can check tho

[cursive cipher]

the woof secret sound is so ass 😭

but like I just remembered it has those blood corrections and it's like whoa those were really cool.....

[hexed escarp]

i like it but its probably just what im used to

i think that sound is used by other ports as well

[cursive cipher]

I know some ports use the same sound as the unity one

watching Decino vids I've seen them both used

[vale gyro]

I actually don’t really care for it

I don’t have the Secret Revealed messages on ever, so that’s probably why

[vale gyro]

I found a Doomworld post for changing the sound in Crispy

I’ll look into it and see if I can get it working for Woof

[cursive cipher]

[vale gyro]

It works right out of the box for me

All it does is replace the base sound effect with the one heard in GZDoom

[cursive cipher]

yoooo

what's the trick?

[vale gyro]

Just automating the WAD

[ivory gyro]

I made a wad to switch the secret sound, its in here https://gamebanana.com/mods/509261

[vale gyro]

I can look more in depth to see the file name; though

[cursive cipher]

wgoah

srry I'm not sure how this works... what port is this mod for?

[cursive cipher]

also i have no idea what this means sorry

[vale gyro]

I meant auto loading, sorry

Also the page says it’s vanilla compat

[cursive cipher]

I also have no idea what that means sorry

[celest coyote]

Woof moment be like

[vale gyro]

Also, all it does is replace the DSSECRET Lump

[cursive cipher]

y'all are gonna need to walk me through a little more slowly lol

[vale gyro]

You could put literally anything in there

Infact, ima be funny and put Black Dog by Led Zeppelin as the sound effect

[cursive cipher]

a lump is just like, a file, is it?

[celest coyote]

Yea basically

[ivory gyro]

It should work with any port

[celest coyote]

.lmp are collections of data, essentially

[vale gyro]

I’m sorry, I’m just laughing my ass off over here

[cursive cipher]

wait did you update the mod for this in response to the conversation going on here lol

[ivory gyro]

maybe

[cursive cipher]

😭

that's so based honestly

[ivory gyro]

So does it work goodly?

[cursive cipher]

oh I haven't tried it yet
I'm not even on my game computer rn lol, I'll get to it in a bit

uh... how do I install it, btw?

actually I don't think I remember how to launch Woof at all hold on...

[vale gyro]

Now this has gotten me into the mood to try to make a less aggressive secret sound effect noise

And my ears ring thanks to the tool I’m using

[ivory gyro]

What source port do you use. Most just let you drag and drop wad files onto their .exe

[cursive cipher]

well we were here on the topic of modding it into Woof
which is also the only one I have installed besides the Unity port so

I haven't launched it in forever though lol

chat how do I launch woof again...

[vale gyro]

You can use a launcher to make things easier for you if you hate the command line

[ivory gyro]

I've never heard of Woof until now

[vale gyro]

You just run it

[cursive cipher]

oh I've no issue with the command line I just don't remember how to use it lol

command line makes me feel very cool and smart in fact

[vale gyro]

If you need a specific IWAD, use the -iwad parameter in the terminal when running Woof

[cursive cipher]

makes sense...

[vale gyro]

To load in mods, use the -file parameter for that

Separate each file directory with a space

Invoking -file more than once will snap the program into 2

[ivory gyro]

what even is woof

[cursive cipher]

it's a source port

[ivory gyro]

well I guessed that

[vale gyro]

A fork of WinMBF, pretty much

[cursive cipher]

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Woof!

[vale gyro]

More advanced features than it, too

[ivory gyro]

huh

[cursive cipher]

hold on what exactly is a "mod" in technical terms?
is it just another wad but like, used for different things?
in the same sense both iwads and pwads are just wads but they have different roles?

[ivory gyro]

Iwads are basicly games for the doom engine

doom 1 is an iwad as is doom 2 plutonia ect

[cursive cipher]

yeah ik iwads and pwads

wait I thought plutonia was a pwad?

[ivory gyro]

no its a stand alone Iwad I belive

[hardy vessel]

there is no difference between iwad and pwad, other than 1 byte in the header

so it doesnt matter

[cursive cipher]

well and the role they fill
iwads have the whole game, pwads just overwrite parts of the iwad to be something else

[vale gyro]

Yeah

[cursive cipher]

for instance changing the levels

you can't run a pwad without an iwad, usually

[vale gyro]

I used “mod” in a general sense here

[hardy vessel]

you can have a pwad witha all the files

[cursive cipher]

yea
but most won't, right?

[vale gyro]

So that means PWADs and also the pk3s you see with a lot of GZDoom mods

[hardy vessel]

most dont because they dont want to, not because they cant

[cursive cipher]

actually a pwad with all the files would technically be copyright infringement, no?

[ivory gyro]

if its copyrighted material yes

[vale gyro]

If you’re referring to Freedoom for some reason, it’s actually and IWAD and not a PWAD

Otherwise, well I don’t know then

[cursive cipher]

anyway
where was I again?
I'm gonna need this -file parameter explained a little more. What am I telling the program to run when I specify an iwad, pwad, and file?

[hardy vessel]

no, im talking about the difference about iwad and pwad

[vale gyro]

The -file parameter is the parameter used to load PWADs

Basically, if you wanted to run Sigil with Doom 1 for example

It’d be woof -iwad DOOM.WAD -file SIGIL.WAD

[cursive cipher]

oh
right, file is the parameter for pwads, I thought there was a pwad parameter...

right ok
so if I wanna run woof using the doom 2 iwad, plutonia pw... no wait plutonia is an iwad that's right
let's way I wanna run woof using the doom 2 iwad, some other pwad, and that secret sound mod
what would that look like?

[hardy vessel]

you can put any files after the .-file argument

-file x.wad y.zip whatever.pk3

[vale gyro]

woof -file secret.wad foo.wad

[cursive cipher]

what determines the load order?

[hardy vessel]

the order in which you type them

[vale gyro]

I omitted the -iwad parameter due to the fact Doom 2 loads first

[hardy vessel]

just use a mod manager, honestly

[vale gyro]

I honestly didn’t use one until recently when I made my own lol

[hardy vessel]

i made my own as soon as i started using mods for doom 2

zdl is fine but i cant stand white UI

[vale gyro]

Mines has been in development since Jan. 2024

[vale gyro]

Mines is still the white UI WinForms has on default

Partly because I just don’t care

[hardy vessel]

can i see it?

[cursive cipher]

but like which way? does the first have what ultimately appears on top or the last?

[vale gyro]

I can send a DM of the main window I suppose

[vale gyro]

First is loaded first iirc

[cursive cipher]

so last overwrites it

[hardy vessel]

if you do -file x y z, x is loaded first, y is loaded on top of x, z is loaded on top of all

[cursive cipher]

alright

[vale gyro]

Nevermind, I can’t

[hardy vessel]

did you not upload it to zdoom or moddb?

[cursive cipher]

post in #screenshots

and link the image here

[hexed escarp]

wait does vanilla have a secret sound?

[vale gyro]

I have it only on my personal drive as it’s mainly meant for friends

[hexed escarp]

i didn't know that was a thing

[vale gyro]

Don’t think so

[hexed escarp]

then how

[ivory gyro]

I should specifiy I meant vanilla compat as in crispy doom, or some other similar port

[vale gyro]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/832527939153297448/1240114692232450078/image.png?ex=6645624e&is=664410ce&hm=165cd1002e34083c85a37f9082f7c480c4b303a07574c13b6b0d2c0621bdb83d&

[ivory gyro]

I'll change what it says

[vale gyro]

Low quality screenie

[vale gyro]

Beats me

[hexed escarp]

is DSSECRET just a generally agreed upon convention between ports?

[hardy vessel]

is it c# or vb?

[ivory gyro]

DSSECRET seems to work

[vale gyro]

Could have been the lump name used in Boom or MBF (if it had secret sounds)

[vale gyro]

C#

It’s split up into sub windows mainly

[hexed escarp]

oh yeah maybe

[vale gyro]

It does have Discord RPC integration, actually

[hardy vessel]

a touch of modern social networking

[vale gyro]

I threw out including the frameworks

But it did get it down to like 1.2 MB

Which kinda makes it harder to make portable (especially after looking at the default settings for it)

It saves presets and settings into a specific location rather than the CWD

Though, there are options to make it do that instead

[hardy vessel]

mono?

[vale gyro]

.NET

Hence the frameworks

[hardy vessel]

well yeah, but how is that portable

unless you mean net core

[gusty bobcat]

oooooooo, this looks nice :o do you have the source code on github friend?

[cursive cipher]

chat
where do I get the plutonia wad
like, most "properly"
I wanna jump through all the hoops

[vale gyro]

Nah, actually not

[hexed escarp]

if you buy doom 2 on steam or gog it should come with final ddoom

[cursive cipher]

I have it on Steam, I can't find the file lol

[gusty bobcat]

wait i have a guide

[cursive cipher]

oh you know what

hold on

[gusty bobcat]

holdon lemme get the link

[vale gyro]

I’ll be honest when I was taking some code from SO so I could get launching programs and loading presets working I forgot to include references for them

Never intended on making it open source

[hexed escarp]

if you go to your steam library in the steam app, "final doom" should be there in your list of games

so you just need to install it

i think

[cursive cipher]

yeah I think I found the issue

[gusty bobcat]

final doom was unlisted from steam. it is now bundled in with doom 2

[cursive cipher]

doom 2 is taking way too long to install wtf

[hardy vessel]

I only uploaded the binaries to ModDB

[cursive cipher]

20Mbps

[hardy vessel]

nobody ever uses the source

[vale gyro]

I got mines published on a public Google Drive

Had no reason for mass sharing of it

[vale gyro]

Even then I don’t wanna embarrass myself with my more than likely horrible programming

[hardy vessel]

i always share for two reasons, if there are bugs someone is bound to find it for me, and sometimes people have some cool ideas to add

[cursive cipher]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/832527939153297448/1240117712689168384/image.png
chat what is this folder

[gusty bobcat]

it is for autoloading certain pwads when a give iwad is loaded

[cursive cipher]

can I use this to automate the secret sound mod

[hardy vessel]

how bad can it be? it's c#

[vale gyro]

I’m self taught completely

Haven’t even boughten a course for the language

[gusty bobcat]

for example, if you have a doom 2 pwad, lets say a widescreen assets wad, and you want it always be loaded when you enter doom2 you can put it in the doom2 folder, which iirc correctly, is inside doom-all

[hardy vessel]

same

[vale gyro]

I program how I understand it

And less about general conventions

Hence why I chose WinForms over WPF because I cannot understand MVVM for the life of me

[hardy vessel]

general conventions can go suck a pole

[gusty bobcat]

me too, brother. though in my case i did get lucky and got to work professionally (as an unpaid intern) for a time, but all i do i post on my github, too

[vale gyro]

I have a couple of projects that are opened source

[cursive cipher]

the files in the folders are in the .lmp format

[vale gyro]

Although i have not updated the repo in ages

And I won’t go into what it is due to it not being related with Doom in the slightest

[gusty bobcat]

it is most important however, to have a drive to keep coding, a passion if you will. it will keep you learning and improving. you got this :)

[gusty bobcat]

those are just preloaded with woof, you can add you own wad files as you want, just try not to delete the lmp files already in.

[hardy vessel]

some projects can teach more than any course

[vale gyro]

I just don’t understand a lot that most projects I wanna do require me to understand, so most of my work is terminal programs

My Doom launcher is the one exception

Anyways

[azure nimbus]

it's not something ya gotta manually open. It'll be a prompt on your launcher

[cursive cipher]

what are smart monsters

where's teh FUCKIN documentations

[hexed escarp]

put it in the folder called doom-all

[hexed escarp]

what is this in reference to

[cursive cipher]

I was poking around some stuff on the github page for Woof

[hexed escarp]

ah

where did you see smart monsters?

[cursive cipher]

it was a cheat code, referenced some
hold on

SMART
Toggles smart monsters (the "remember previous enemy" option in the Enemies menu).

[hexed escarp]

ah probably an mbf compat thing

[gusty bobcat]

yeah

[hexed escarp]

i remember mbf added some new infighting behaviors and had the ability to toggle them on and off

[gusty bobcat]

comes from boom "TNTSMART", a simple compatibility cheat

[hexed escarp]

ah so not an mbf thing

[gusty bobcat]

it was shortened to SMART in mbf

[hexed escarp]

what were the infighting behaviors added in mbf again?

[gusty bobcat]

like every other boom cheat. the mbf infighting thing was monsters not immediately infighting as the become alert

[hardy vessel]

i just finished a WAD reader/writer, and want to unearth my old GFF reader/writer. That's how i learn

[vale gyro]

What’s the WAD thing for?

[gusty bobcat]

which makes it very difficult to get them to infight, as you need to wait for their infighting threshold to lower to 0 first

[hexed escarp]

ah

[hardy vessel]

it's for the launcher, i want to be able to scan and see what's in a WAD if i wish so, also be able to extract or modify them if necessary

[gusty bobcat]

nice. i myself wanna get into maintaining a fork of the omgifol python library, since my latest project uses it, and it was lacking in type definitions

[hardy vessel]

GFF in the other hand is cancerous

[hardy vessel]

im not a python enthusiast, what is that omgifol

[hexed escarp]

i remember back when i used to play doom primarily with dosbox, i had an interesting idea for a doom launcher to make, which would be one specific to dosbox

it would let you select which dos game executable you want to use, which wads, and it would launch it through dosbox

and if you load a pwad with a dehacked patch, it would apply it to the exe before launching

but i never made it and i dont play with dosbox anymore

primarily because the sound quality was shit more than anything else

the music was good with virtualmidisynth

but i just COULD NOT for the life of me make the sfx sound normal

depending on the settings i put, they were either horribly delayed, or insanely crackly

[gusty bobcat]

ah sorry 😅 its a library built to manipulate wad files, move lumps around, make changes to map data, etc etc

i used it to make my masterpack project its really nice

[cursive cipher]

oh yeah if I'm gonna play Plutonia, is there anything people recommend with it?
like I heard there was a midi pack or something?

[hardy vessel]

nice, i just googled it and read it on the doom wiki

[cursive cipher]

also where can I find documentation on all these fucking SETTINGS
the hell is swirling flats ‼️

[gusty bobcat]

there is, just google plutonia midi pack

[hexed escarp]

midi pack is amazing

[hexed escarp]

swirling flats is a feature from smmu

that makes it so that whenever you have a floor/ceiling texture with an animation

instead of playing that animation, it does a swirly effect on it instead

works great for liquids, however unfortunately if you are playing anything with an animated floor texture thats not a liquid, like teleporters in otex, it completely fucks it up

[cursive cipher]

I see...

[gusty bobcat]

you'll learn with time friend, there's a lot of stuff on woof. swirling flats makes animated floor and ceiling textures "swirly" as if the were a liquid. but htis can cause some odd visual qualities, as it happens on any flat, even a flat that is supposed to be still, and not a liquid

yeah what he said

[cursive cipher]

so, here's the thing
there are like
there are a lot more settings
I could ask about them all
but I think that would kinda suck for everyone
is there any place I can just read on them all?

[gusty bobcat]

the otex teleports are messed up, saw it once in eviternity, kept it off since 😅

[hexed escarp]

nah

nobody has bothered to create it. just turn them on and see what they do

[gusty bobcat]

just gotta learn them as you go

[hexed escarp]

or dont touch them

[gusty bobcat]

sadly it is a somewhat undocumented part of the community

[cursive cipher]

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/music/plutmidi
this one yea?

[hexed escarp]

yeah

it improves nearly every level

there are a select few where i prefered the original midi on that map

but in general it is much better

[cursive cipher]

cause like the original Plutonia just uses default music yea

[hexed escarp]

yeah

[gusty bobcat]

yup

[hexed escarp]

mostly doom 1 music actually

shuffled around, so not in the same order it was originally

[cursive cipher]

so i just load the wad as a =file ig yea?

[hexed escarp]

yeah

the maps where I think the og music was better than midi pack are 11, 16, 21, 25, 30, and 31

no offense at all to the composers for those tracks, i just feel that they didn't fit the map as well as the tracks that were originally there

[gusty bobcat]

yeah like woof -iwad plutonia -file plutmidi.wad

[hexed escarp]

actually remove 16 from that list, that one was good

[hexed escarp]

if you are a nerd, add -complevel 4 there as well

which changes all of the behavior settings to match that of the original final doom executable

really doesn't matter and will not make any noticeable difference

but I do it anyways lol

[gusty bobcat]

yeah, but woof is so good it auto detects plutonia as well 😅 and sets the complevel anyway

[hexed escarp]

i thought woof defaulted to 21

yeah it does

just tested. you can do -complevel vanilla tho to autoddetect by iwad

so it will detect if you are doing ultimate doom, doom 2, or final doom

[cursive cipher]

does "improved hit detection" fix the weird blockmap stuff?

[hexed escarp]

and set the correct settings

[cursive cipher]

what does the pistol start comp setting do?

[gusty bobcat]

oh yeah thats right, i forgot. woof only does that in vanilla mode. but since i already have it on always it autos

[hexed escarp]

makes it so you dont keep your weapons/ammo between maps

and so your health/armor reset between maps

[cursive cipher]

ah makes sense

[gusty bobcat]

i think? it helps. but im pretty sure its for performance

[cursive cipher]

what about "fast line-of-sight calculations"?

and is "emulate intercepts overflow" related to that all-ghosts thing?

[hexed escarp]

yeah intercepts overflow is the technical term for all-ghosts

[cursive cipher]

alright

[hexed escarp]

turning on that setting is basically "disable the fix for the all-ghosts bug"

[cursive cipher]

"direct vertical aiming", is that just uncapping the vertical autoaim? or

[gusty bobcat]

ah. thats the performance one, i got confused

[hexed escarp]

in general tho, if you don't know what a setting does, just don't touch it

you don't need to know what every single one does

[cursive cipher]

they sound cool tho

[vale gyro]

You can have vertical aiming in Woof

Though, it’ll be like running GZ with the software renderer (as well, Woof uses one)

[hexed escarp]

i believe this is freelook

[cursive cipher]

I thought that was a different setting?

[hexed escarp]

oh it might be

[vale gyro]

Also, the Voxels setting requires you to have the Voxel Doom mod loaded

[vale gyro]

and I believe this disables auto-aim

[hexed escarp]

keep in mind that freelook in woof or anything else with software rendering will make your view distort when you look up and down

since the doom software renderer wasnt designed for that

[cursive cipher]

haha yeah

what's "stretch short skies" and "linear sky scrolling"?

[hexed escarp]

linear sky scrolling makes it so that the game doesn't distort the sky in the corners of your screen

it looks like ass tho when you look around so idk why you would want it

[cursive cipher]

brightmaps? isn't that just like, how lighting is done? what does it do as a setting?

[vale gyro]

Basically

Switches, armor pickups, and some wall textures have bits that are meant to look like they are glowing

[gusty bobcat]

brightmaps are when certain textures and sprites have a few pixels that remain fully bright in any darkness, regardless of distance

[vale gyro]

I was gonna say this lol

Anyways

[cursive cipher]

whoahh this game recognizes mousewheel side tilt as an input

[vale gyro]

I like brightmaps as well as colored blood

[cursive cipher]

more advanced than Eternal...

[vale gyro]

They’re nice visual touches

[gusty bobcat]

just posted a screenie as an example in #screenshots

[cursive cipher]

screenie lmao

[hexed escarp]

i guess when a developer starts with a game that already works and their only job is to add quality of life features, there is a lot they can do

[gusty bobcat]

in it the nukage on the barrels remain the same bright green even at a distance

[cursive cipher]

why is there a weapon called "best"

what is it

[gusty bobcat]

what

[vale gyro]

It’s for auto switching

[gusty bobcat]

oh right

[vale gyro]

Basically, there’s an order of weapons the game chooses from in usefulness

I think the BFG is one of the last weapons picked

mainly due to how much ammo it uses

[cursive cipher]

what does the "preferences" section in the "weapons" menu do?
is that the autoswitching?

[vale gyro]

also sorry if my responses are delayed, I'm deciding if I should retire my itch page or not

[vale gyro]

lemme check rq

[cursive cipher]

and what is "weapon alignment"

[vale gyro]

Hold on about this one actually

[vale gyro]

that's what's for autoswitching I believe

best weapon I think choses the best weapon based on those prefences

[vale gyro]

basically how the sway should behave when firing

by default it keeps it at the last position it was at during the sway

[cursive cipher]

there's a "centered" option (explanatory), but also an "off" and "bobbing"

what's different between those last two?

[vale gyro]

off is the default behaviour

"bobbing" makes the weapon sway stay in effect even when firing

[cursive cipher]

I see...

[vale gyro]

I can kinda see how this is useful when doing nukage rhythm while firing

[cursive cipher]

huh
"use-button timer"?

oh I think I see
what's that fgor though?

[vale gyro]

"fgor?"

[cursive cipher]

for*

[vale gyro]

I don't really know, honestly

maybe debugging?

all I can think of

[cursive cipher]

why is there no reset to default optiuon for weapon preferences 😭

[vale gyro]

you can always just reset your config

[cursive cipher]

also what's "use weapon toggles"?
is that for the autoswitch or maybe for like the shotguns..?

[cursive cipher]

but all the things I've poked at!

[vale gyro]

well

temporarily

as in moving the config out so you can see default settings

put in your config once more and then changing the settings to their default values

[cursive cipher]

ugh... maybe I'll just look em up on the wiki lol

[vale gyro]

gonna be AFK for a bit, my brain's overcomplicating the shit out of this and I'm probably gonna fall into some sort of attack

[hexed escarp]

i should continue my scythe 2 playthrough

map26 is so insane

[vale gyro]

aight, my mind's somewhat back into line

[vale gyro]

what's it like?

[hexed escarp]

it only has 43 enemies

but the combat is absolutely brutal

you are given so little ammo and health, and you have to rely on berzerk a lot, and the combat areas are very very tight for the high tier monsters you are fighting

[vale gyro]

I said this for a TNT map as well I believe

[hexed escarp]

yeah but this is a different level

[vale gyro]

I got bamboozeled by the enemy count

[vale gyro]

I could guess that

TNT's considered easy by most people

[hexed escarp]

i meant like a ddifferent level of difficulty

[vale gyro]

I'm not most people

[hexed escarp]

fair

i think its considered that by people who have been playing the game for a long time and have tackled much harder sets

[vale gyro]

well, I ain't gonna beat myself up too much as I've seen a decent improvement since I beat E4M2 without deaths, pistol-started, under 5 minutes

[hexed escarp]

the opening of this map makes you kill 4 hell knights with only berzerk in these tiny corridors

[vale gyro]

which is probably my greatest achievement imo

[hexed escarp]

at least its 4 on uv, maybe less on other skills

[vale gyro]

at least they aren't barons

[hexed escarp]

the map is just called "Death"

[vale gyro]

should I start Scythe 2 with my skill level

or should I play the first one first?

[hexed escarp]

scythe 1 is much less visually interesting than scythe 2

the thing about the scythe wads is that they have a very broad difficulty curve

scythe 1 is 3 episodes, episode 1 is easier than knee deep in the dead, episode 2 is probably on par with something like plutonia, and episode 3 is insanely difficult

scythe 2 is 6 smaller episodes, episodes 1-2 are probably around doom 2 difficulty, 3 and 4 are probably more around plutonia, and episodes 5 and 6 are some of the hardest there is (don't quote me on that)

well probably not the hardest there is, but incredibly ddifficult

basically the final episodes of both scythe 1 and 2 jump up in difficulty significantly, but before that they are very manageable

so you could probably take on the first 20 maps of both

scythe 2 is much more visually interesting and polished than scythe 1

[vale gyro]

I'm attracted to the episode format, actually

how long are each episode?

forgot Doom Wiki existed

lol

[hexed escarp]

scythe 1 has 10 map episodes and scythe 2 has 5 map episoddes

[vale gyro]

I'd be more into Scythe 2, then

I like Doom 1 more for a reason

and that's due to it's breaks between everything

[hexed escarp]

it also makes the difficulty progression more gradual

because scythe 1 only ups the difficulty between each episode

[vale gyro]

I guess it's worth a shot for a mapset before Plutonia

[hexed escarp]

resulting in episode 1 being boringly easy and episode 3 being unrelentingly difficult

and the transitions between those and episode 2 which is more standard difficulty really jarring

but scythe 2 makes the transition more gradually

although the jump from standard to insane slaughter difficulty is still very abrupt there

for some reason he decided to put it mid-episode

in episode 5, maps 21 and 22 are not too difficult

[vale gyro]

you think I should do it on HMP

or should I lower it for once?

[hexed escarp]

but then you get to map 23 and suddenly its a 500 enemy slaughterfest

whatever you want

[vale gyro]

to be fair it's episodes rather than Doom 2's usual format

so I can pick and choose easier I suppose

[hexed escarp]

yeah

if you want to be able to select the episodes from the menu, you can install this umapinfo patch made by someone on doomworld: https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/122892-umapinfo-appreciation-thread/

it includes ones for various episodic wads that didnt originally have episode select

[vale gyro]

oh, nice, gonna save this

also gotta find a widescreen hud for S2 rq

[hexed escarp]

I should probably finish plutonia as well

I never finished it because I just started getting annoyed by the level design

It was so solid in the first half but then it just started getting meh

[vale gyro]

also, I found a random sound effect I made for an abandoned project that was perfect as a secret revealed sound effect replacement

[hexed escarp]

I’m on map23 now

[cursive cipher]

ok how do I fix my weapon switch order 😭

[vale gyro]

sound so much less aggressive than the base one all other ports use to a point where I might actually start using it

[vale gyro]

y'need the order numbers?

I can paste that part of the config in real quick

[cursive cipher]

ig 😭
the numbers in the menu go up to 9 so they've gotta be including the shotguns and melees separately

oh ty 😭

[vale gyro]

NEVERMIND

[cursive cipher]

LOL

[vale gyro]

dm it?

[cursive cipher]

sure

[vale gyro]

I actually can't make it open source due to the Discord RPC intergration alone

I completely forgot about the fact it needs an API key

[hexed escarp]

Could you put the api key in a file or smthn

[vale gyro]

I could look into it, sure

but at it's current state, if I try to just exclude it from the code it'll make it completely uncompilable

[hexed escarp]

Maybe you could have the api key compile into a dll

Or smthn idfk

[vale gyro]

I could also just mention "oh, you need to get your own API key for compilation" as well

as it's very easy to make a Discord application through their portal

all you need is a placeholder image titled "icon" and provide your own key and it'll work

[hexed escarp]

Ah yeah

[vale gyro]

all it actually requires is those two things

and you can easily remove one of those requirements by just deleting like 5 lines of code at most

once I get around to actually wanting to make it open source (probably when the final version is made), I'll decide what I want to do

I'm running out of ideas for it anyways, it's spanned 3 major versions afterall

[celest coyote]

Holy moly. Walk away for a few hours and over 500 messages fill up in here

[vale gyro]

really that many?

[hexed escarp]

Yeah cuz this guy wanted to know what every single individual setting in woof does

[vale gyro]

sheesh

[celest coyote]

I lightly skimmed. But that’s crazy

I tend to fall in my groove of how I play doom and stick in that lane till I can’t anymore

Zdoom was my default for years, then skulltag, then gzdoom, now it’s gz and dsda for more options between more modded content and more vanilla-based content for doom

You can spend days on settings and small tweaks tho

[vale gyro]

my history with main ports is kinda weird honestly

it's something under the lines of
Unity->GZDoom->DOSBOX->Unity (again)->DOSBOX (again)->Crispy Doom->Woof

[vale gyro]

actually, I might've only mained DOSBOX once

I can't remember

I know I used Crispy and DOSBOX as my main two at one point until I fully switched to Crispy

[hexed escarp]

For me it was gzdoom -> chocolate -> prboom-plus -> *chocolate/crispy/woof (the furthest to the left of these that could play whatever I wanted to play) -> dosbox -> * again -> woof

[vale gyro]

speaking of which

[hexed escarp]

I only used gzdoom for like 30 minutes until I found out chocolate existed

[vale gyro]

I had actually started using Woof along with Crispy AND DOSBOX as well

but only for Overboard

and it was rarely used otherwise

I hadn't started using Woof full-on until I used DSDA for Sigil 2

which I don't exactly like

I've also used PrBoom (not PrBoom+) along with Doom95 as well for random ports I've just used

I got a decent list of ports that I've actually used

[celest coyote]

I couldn’t update my DSDA the last time I tried few months ago, but I haven’t tried recently. I’m always more interested in actually playing the doom wad rather than messing with ports, etc.

If it works it works

[vale gyro]

DOSBOX, Crispy, Unity, Doom95, PrBoom, Woof, DSDA, GZDoom, Zand, probably some others I'm forgetting

never PrBoom+, though

I nearly used Boom when I wanted to play Sigil 1

[vale gyro]

same with me with Woof

recent update has it's main menu and widget display just broken for me

don't know why

maybe my config, idk

[celest coyote]

DSDA had no executable with it when I downloaded the most recent version, so I wasn’t sure how I actually update my port

At least I got my level tables

[ebon crane]

oh?

[cursive cipher]

"hmm this map doesn't seem too bad, I'll probably save after this room"

enter archvile ambush in open room with no cover

[cursive cipher]

it's a little bit quiet

[vale gyro]

Launchers will have a “extra parameters” text box most of the time, which is where you enter the parameters

The command line, on the other hand, is something you open in Windows

Command Prompt would be its name

Although I believe most of the commands that work in CMD will run just fine in Powershell, too

Any parameters you can enter in the launcher will work the same way in the command prompt when you run the port from the command line instead of the launcher

[frozen grove]

I just set up GZdoom on my mac, very interesting experience.

It was surprisingly easy to set up, I just had to create a directory and drop my Iwad in there.

[vast reef]

thats how it is for every doom source port

[ebon crane]

nono i understand

[ivory gyro]

Alr I’ll try to adjust the volume

[azure nimbus]

Monster behavior in all compatability modes for target choice: If a monster is damaged, its movecount is assigned to 100 steps. After 100 steps, it is liable to switch targets based on damage. If it's sleeping and simply sees or hears the player, it'll target the player but not reassign the movecount. The difference is that in mbf11(not21), monster's default to a movecount of 60. In other complevels, they default to 0. This means that normally, monsters alerted by sound or sight can instantly switch targets when damaged. In mbf11, they gotta walk a bit first

[azure nimbus]

My understanding is that that SMART setting activates the mbf11 behavior. Still, there's no reason to mess with any of that. Just set the compat level to whatever pwad download tells you to.. I know more about the complevel differences compared to the individual settings

[azure nimbus]

You can always override autoswaps so personally I don't really see a use in changing it

[azure nimbus]

most settings are set the moment you select a complevel. Don't worry about manually picking all the "correct" ones.