classic-doom

[finite crag]

when i first played TNT map04

i pressed the exit switch 30 seconds after starting the map

didn't know it was the exit

[finite crag]

i started to play sigil

UV-Max

pistol start

[dapper flint]

Decent time enjoy

[finite crag]

thanks

[finite crag]

there is something about E5M2

i think it would be better for E5M1

it's shorter even

[lethal sedge]

Just a big fan of arcade FPS games!

Doom, Serious Sam, Quake, all good time!

[lethal sedge]

You know I was thinking one day that the exit switch should be at the opposite part of the map

So people have to go through the "alternate dimension" to see the full map

[dapper flint]

Just picked up dusk loving it

[lethal sedge]

Nice, I should replay Dusk again, one of the best FPS games in recent memory for me. Okay onto Doom again, yeah MAP04 TNT, great map but being able to finish it so early kind of hurts it.

At least the map is creative and actually fun, can't say that for another map you can finish fast and ignore most of it (TNT MAP22)

[tacit remnant]

I love Dusk

[dense plinth]

TNT has some pretty good tracks

Into The Beasts Belly would probably be the one I like the most

if it wasn't used in 3 levels

[analog ridge]

I need to get used to fighting large numbers of CBs

[ornate vortex]

Im back from my break again

[vast reef]

cb?

do you mean cd (cyberdemon or cacodemon)

or cg (chaingunner)

[analog ridge]

Chaingun Bob or Chaingunner as he's popularly known

[vast reef]

ahhh

haven't seen anybody refer to them as chaingun bob ngl

[ornate vortex]

he kinda does look like a bob

[coarse cradle]

as long as they're bald they're bob

[finite crag]

it's a really good track, but it's only one minute long, and it takes at least 20 minutes to beat Mount Pain, so you will hear it over and over again, and you can get tired of it

they could have made the music longer

or the level shorter

[dense plinth]

Yeah

[finite crag]

so strange for me that the crosses on health pickups are red

i played on the BFG edition for long time before i downloaded the original doom wads

and there the crosses were green

the fu

[vast reef]

what are they trying to post lmao

[finite crag]

so yeah, i played BFG edition for a long time before i downloaded the og wads

and on bfg the crosses were green

and the red crosses are strange for me

[vast reef]

i wonder if anybody here has memories of switching between DOS and a console port in the 90s-2000s

[dense plinth]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642304323560407044/1102554821124440074/image.png

BFG edition should have these red and white pills instead of the green cross

green cross is on the unity version of the game

[narrow condor]

My favourite solution to the Red Cross problem is using red heart symbols, which ubiquitously represent health/lives in video games.

The pill symbol is the clumsiest solution I've seen.

[ornate vortex]

Glad I am using those for Skinwalker

I just thought it would fit the whole fleshy theme of the map

[narrow condor]

It's so easy to recognise too.

[ornate vortex]

true

[dense plinth]

eh I mean I've never thought the pill was that bad

pill means drugs

[ornate vortex]

In the Unity port of doom

they use green crosses instead of red

[forest zodiac]

The 2019 ports used to have the pills too

Before a later update changed it to the green crosses alongside other QOL changes

The Doom 64 remaster has blue crosses

[dense plinth]

no it has white ones

[forest zodiac]

Eternal uses the BFG Edition IWADs

Duke Nukem 3D World Tour also has pills because Nerve developed that too

[dense plinth]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642304323560407044/1102556824756035604/image.png

[narrow condor]

Green crosses are common in more 'serious' video games that don't want to use hearts because first-aid kits actually use green crosses (or the Swiss flag) in real life.

[dense plinth]

yee

the red cross is the symbol of the red cross foundation, it's a privatised symbol

[finite crag]

unity BFG

yeah i downloaded it from gog

[dense plinth]

unity bfg?

[finite crag]

i downloaded the original from an other website

[finite crag]

bfg edition with unity port

[dense plinth]

that exists?

is it a gog thing?

[finite crag]

yeah

i bought it from gog

it said doom & doom II enhanced

with unity port

i could have known it's the bfg edition

but on friday i downloaded the original, 1994 & 1995 ultimate doom & doom 2 iwads, so it isn't the bfg, and it has nazi imagery, and the red medikit cross, and the wolfss guy

[dense plinth]

mhm

I do kinda hate how wolf3d gets censored outside of wolf3d

[finite crag]

not in original doom 2

[dense plinth]

yeah I know

but BFG took away all the paintings and replaced all the SS with zombiemen

[finite crag]

"OLD IS GOLD" so true

[dense plinth]

unity put the SS back but changed their alerted voice line

[finite crag]

bfg sucks ass

[dense plinth]

and they changed all the swastika's on the paintings to the triangle typically used in place of the swastika

which isn't as bad

bfg is surely the worst, both levels are completely bare

[finite crag]

because i played on BFG for a long time, it replaces the WolfSS with the zombieman, and if i played a wad that had a custom enemy replacing the wolfss, it was a zombieman

and because of that i couldn't finish going down map29

because the boss is replacing the wolfss

[ornate vortex]

and it replaces both maps soundtracks to "doom" which is imo the worst one

[dense plinth]

I find it funny how back in the early 90's id were able to get away with using the nazi national anthem as the main theme for their game

[remote cedar]

id was able to get away with a lot of stuff

[dense plinth]

and 20 years later in the bfg edition they even go so far as to censor a music track just cause it came from wolf3d

[remote cedar]

there's that, and a ton of stuff that would be called out for copyright infringement en masse today

[dense plinth]

oh yeah

I mean the main Doom theme is taken from a song iirc

the riff isn't an original riff

[finite crag]

yeah it replaces it to map05 and 13 music

and because of that the credits song is also that

[remote cedar]

it's still amazing how they were able to use the songs later on tho

[finite crag]

they used the nazi national anthem for wolf3d?

didn't know that

[dense plinth]

same

[ornate vortex]

I did

[dense plinth]

I only learnt it recently

[remote cedar]

they reused some songs for Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal, which kinda wipes the stains of copyright infringement away

[dense plinth]

but those trumpets that play when you start up the game are playing to the tune of their national anthem

[ornate vortex]

a good example of that is the fact bye bye american pie is literally just "them bones"

[finite crag]

they got away with just making the same song with midi instruments

i think that's why it's so annoying

[remote cedar]

How does that make it better

[ornate vortex]

people still do that nowadays

[remote cedar]

I mean it sounds really good, I like Bye Bye American Pie

but it's clearly copyright infringement

[finite crag]

i found it annoying to listen to, just like Kitchen Ace (or Kicking Ass) from doom 1

[remote cedar]

Damn that's my favorite track tho

it's also the reason why I like Transistor Fist from DOOM 2016 so much too

[finite crag]

my favourite in doom 1 is Sinister and Facing The Spider

[dense plinth]

wait which song uses american pie?

[finite crag]

doom 2 barely has any songs that are standing out

[remote cedar]

I disagree

[finite crag]

bye bye american pie is the midi conversion of Them Bones from Alice In Chains

[finite crag]

i said barely

[dense plinth]

ohhh I see

[remote cedar]

Doom 2 has Running from Evil, DOOM, In The Dark, The Dave D. Taylor Blues, The Demon's Dead and Opening To Hell

at the very least

[ornate vortex]

Suspense is one of my favourite midis from classic doom

project doom makes it so much better tho

[finite crag]

running from evil, shawn's got the shotgun, into sandy's city, and waiting for romero to play are the tracks in doom 2 that are standing out for me

[remote cedar]

I also find Read Me to be kinda underrated

[dense plinth]

huh, E1M1's track name is Stricken Commission

didn't know that

[finite crag]

oh the victory music

[remote cedar]

Yeah

[finite crag]

i dunno

it's a bit weird

[remote cedar]

It starts off kinda sad and then gets drums and guitar

makes it sound kinda angry at the end

I like that

[finite crag]

doom 1 has much better soundtrack than doom 2

overall

[remote cedar]

Ahhh man idk about that

[ornate vortex]

agreed

[remote cedar]

I guess I like Doom 2's soundtrack better

of course, Doom 1 has some bangers

Like, a lot of them

[dense plinth]

oh wait no I'm looking at the ultimate midi pack for doom 1 and 2

was gonna say shouldn't E1M1's track name be At Doom's Gate, which it is

[finite crag]

i think doom 1 is better than doom 2 in everything except the super shotgun

[remote cedar]

Disagree

Doom 1 is lacking in enemy variety

which is a problem that Doom 2 solves imo

[ornate vortex]

Doom has better midis, but I think Doom II is superior in every other way

both games have somewhat messy maps

[finite crag]

doom 1 better design, better storytelling, better atmosphere, more cramped design. doom 2 poor design, no storytelling, crappy visuals, too much wide rooms

[ornate vortex]

Inferno was an absolute slog to play imo, didn't really find it too memorable

[remote cedar]

Ok I do agree Doom 1 has better level design. Half of Doom 2 levels are too large

[remote cedar]

Untitled goes hard tho

[finite crag]

the last 2 episodes of doom 1 are very bad

if we don't count sigil

[dense plinth]

sigil is based

[remote cedar]

I haven't played Sigil yet

[ornate vortex]

Sigil is pretty hard for newer players

[dense plinth]

it's fun on hurt me plenty, ultra violence it's more unfair than thy flesh consumed

[remote cedar]

is it available on the Steam release if you were to download it through the game?

[dense plinth]

yes

[remote cedar]

Hell yeah

[finite crag]

but sigil is not a mess like tfc

[dense plinth]

yeah

[ornate vortex]

But that uses the unity port

[remote cedar]

I haven't heard good things about TFC

[dense plinth]

sigil is hard because romero knows how to fuck with the player

[finite crag]

it goes up in difficulty as you progress forward

[dense plinth]

tfc is hard cause, bad design

[remote cedar]

Yeah it's fine tho I can just download the wads and use a sourceport

[ornate vortex]

if you want to play sigil without having to use that port then download it off romero's website

[remote cedar]

At least I legally own the games yknow, I can do whatever I want after that

[finite crag]

the early levels (e5m1-3) are easy and forgiving, but the late levels (e5m9, 6, 7) are very hard

so it goes up in difficulty as you progress forward

but in tfc, nono

[ornate vortex]

That reminds me, i'm looking forward to sigil 2

[dense plinth]

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

hold up, sigil 2? that a joke?

[finite crag]

the first two levels are harder than the rest of tfc except e4m6

[remote cedar]

Oh shit there's gonna be a Sigil 2??

[finite crag]

yes

[ornate vortex]

Romero confirmed sigil 2

[finite crag]

there will be sigil 2

[dense plinth]

bruhhhhhhhh

[finite crag]

i knew about it

[ornate vortex]

Everyone's speculating it's gonna be released by the end of this year

[dense plinth]

is it for Doom 1 or 2?

[ornate vortex]

Doom 1

[dense plinth]

ahh

[remote cedar]

Aw, no super shotgun then

[finite crag]

i think doom 1

[remote cedar]

I find it really refreshing that despite the numbers Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal and its DLC are making, Romero still finds time to cater to Classic Doom players with Sigil

[ornate vortex]

I think it's to mark doom's 30th anniversary

[remote cedar]

Oh hell yeah

so it would release on December 10th maybe?

[ornate vortex]

I'd guess so

[dense plinth]

cause Romero isn't on the new Doom games, at least I think he isn't

[finite crag]

i think december 10th will be the release

because doom was released on dec 10 1993

[dense plinth]

the new Doom's are led by like, Hugo Martin and whatnot

[ornate vortex]

Bethesda

[finite crag]

Romero is the best video game dev, he created his game 30 years ago, and he's still active in the classic doom community

[remote cedar]

Oh I thought he was still part of Id 😔

[dense plinth]

na he's not at id

[remote cedar]

Honestly amazing, gotta give props to that man

[dense plinth]

none of the og's are at id I'm pretty sure

[finite crag]

i have no experince with modern doom, my pc is very shitty, it can't run it

not even doom 2016

[dense plinth]

yeah, I was referring to 2016/Eternal with what I said, I know he's still making stuff for the community tho

[remote cedar]

A friend of mine told me Romero gave off retired rockstar vibes but it couldn't have been further from the truth

I found it to be kinda funny tho

[finite crag]

romero is 50 years old or something i think

he will be active for a couple decades

[remote cedar]

iirc he's turning 56 this year

It's crazy because my parents aren't much older than him

[finite crag]

yeah, he will be active for at least 10 more years

[dense plinth]

he's 55

so yeah 56 this year

[finite crag]

most people die in their seventies, so romero will be active in the community for atleast 15 years

[dense plinth]

hopefully

[remote cedar]

I don't really wanna think about it right now, let's just enjoy his dedication for now

[finite crag]

i can imagine that all of doom ports' logos turn black the moment he dies

[finite crag]

yeah

[dense plinth]

if sigil 2's coming out then that's more lore I can add to my headcanon

kinda, guess it'll just be Doomguy's stuck in hell just a little bit longer till he can go back to earth

[finite crag]

romero wrote a comment under bigmacdavis' arrival map08 some months ago

[remote cedar]

I'm guessing anything after Inferno isn't canon, right?

[finite crag]

i think inferno is canon, and tfc isn't

[remote cedar]

by that I mean Thy Flesh Consumed and Sigil

[finite crag]

sigil is like a continuation of inferno

almost the same hellish style

like doomguy couldn't get out of hell after he killed the tier f spidermama

so i think inferno is canon, and tfc isn't

[dense plinth]

typically, thy flesh consumed is considered canon

and sigil isn't cause it's not officially released by id

[finite crag]

but it doesn't make sense to suddenly go back to earth

[dense plinth]

but like, Doom classic lore is so barebones that it doesn't really matter imo

[finite crag]

yeah

[finite crag]

#screenshots

[remote cedar]

heh true

[finite crag]

cavemen style speaking xd

like: "Me knowing things, me big brain, me going"

[remote cedar]

classic doom lore is just going from level to level, tortured humans on the walls and on spikes, rabbit dies and hell is now on earth

[finite crag]

modern doom lore is like reading the mandatory book in the summer break

[remote cedar]

I feel like this is where Doom 2016 tries too hard: the lore in that game sounds convoluted as hell

[finite crag]

which i didn't, obviously

[remote cedar]

and the same could be said about Doom Eternal

like I guess that's cool for people who actually want a reason to everything

but I feel like it's easier to just ignore all that

like the Doom Slayer does

[finite crag]

doom slayer is too overpowered, i feel like modern doom is a power fantasy

doomguy is just a human with big muscles, not a semi-god

[remote cedar]

I guess the new suit he got makes him overpowered as fuck

it's clear that classic doomguy would not be able to handle modern doom demons

they're much more complex

[finite crag]

yeah, and that's why even watching modern doom feels like a power fantasy

and i don't like if i'm very powerful in a videogame

i like when it's challenging, but not total bullshit @remote cedar

[remote cedar]

then Classic Doom would be perfect

[finite crag]

yeah

[remote cedar]

it can get challenging at times, and you never get any upgrade to your stuff aside from finding new weapons

Modern Doom has that sort of focus on upgrading your weapons to keep up

[finite crag]

i started playing classic doom almost a year ago

so yeah i know things about classic doom

[remote cedar]

I remember first playing Doom 2 way back in 2014

then I got a hold of the first Doom recently and played it

[finite crag]

i first played doom 2 in the summer of 2022

[remote cedar]

then replayed Doom 2

It's a very fun game

[finite crag]

i remember how i sweated in the early maps already

now i blaze through it in a hour

and before i decided to get better at doom (before march) i really raided pistol starts

i hated pistol starts

but now i'm used to it

[remote cedar]

I feel like pistol starting Doom maps is much easier than pistol starting Doom 2 maps

There is no way in hell I'm pistol starting Monster Condo of all maps

[finite crag]

i replayed doom 2 not long ago

i was sick of it, and i am sick of it now (because i tried so many mods with it)

i pistol started each map so yeah

not long ago i started making doom maps

there was my first wad, with 6 very shitty maps (map05 wouldn't be shitty if it wasn't a carbon copy of tnt map11)

there is a wad i'm making now

map01 was my first long and hard map

i think i'll start to make a slaughtermap

a short one

[azure nimbus]

why hate pistol starting monster condo? There is an RL, SSG, BFG all free for the taking at the start

[remote cedar]

I don't want to fight an Arachnotron with just a pistol

it's the first enemy you find iirc

[vast reef]

i like using retro video game OSTs as bgm in school video projects, almost used that once lmao

i found out last minute and defaulted back to the healer stalks instead

[dense plinth]

Lol

[finite crag]

you don't need to fight him immediately

and you get the chaingun before it appears

[dense plinth]

Could probably run past him tbh

[remote cedar]

if I were to pistolstart some Doom maps I'd definitely have to rely on infighting

[finite crag]

man I'm trying to finish doom 2 and its a slog

I got to the second to last level the first time I played and just gave up

[finite crag]

the living end was hard for me when i first played oom 2

too many sandy petersen levels smh

[finite crag]

romero and mcgee are the mappers who's maps are good

[ornate vortex]

Me struggling to run through Crumpets map 4

[finite crag]

petersen is meh

I guess I respect him for making like half of the levels but half of the levels in doom 2 are ass

[ornate vortex]

Speedrunning can be so hard sometimes and yet my best is most likely someone's warmup

[echo tartan]

This ost made me shit myself
https://youtu.be/olxzF3Sa_M0

[ornate vortex]

I'm playing through Ancient Aliens

Map 01 took me like 3 attempts casually (mainly because I got unlucky with the cyberdemon and it kept killing me at the start) and then it took me about 18 attempts to get a 1:30

[dapper flint]

That took me a bit too mainly because I had no idea that it could be telefragged

[atomic dust]

apparently, playing Classic Doom with only the keyboard was the way it was meant to be played

[remote cedar]

Was it though

[finite crag]

turning is awful with only keyboard

[remote cedar]

The option to use keyboard and mouse existed ever since 1993

so it's not entirely true

unless someone from id confirmed it back then

[finite crag]

I can't imagine playing with keyboard only

[atomic dust]

same

[remote cedar]

it would be unbearable

[dapper flint]

That's just a rumor. Mouse support was included very early in development

[remote cedar]

I'm too used to using all 4 directions for movement, rather than having 2 directions that I can adjust by turning

[narrow condor]

fraggle thoroughly debunked that myth on his blog (which I can't link but you can google it).

[atomic dust]

lol

and apparently Petersen said the official way to play the game was not saving and pistol starting upon death

[remote cedar]

it's just that back on DOS not everyone had a mouse, so there needed to be a way to turn around when lacking mouse support

[narrow condor]

That sounds in line with Tom Hall's original vision in which the player had a limited number of lives and reaching zero would trigger a game over. They originally came up with the soulsphere as an extra life (hence a new 'soul', matching the satanic theme).

[ornate vortex]

kinda like wolfenstein but without the points system

[narrow condor]

Yeah

[ornate vortex]

I didn't quite like how wolfenstein worked in terms of mechanics

but maybe that's just the fact I thought lives was an interesting take

[dapper flint]

Peterson talks out of his ass often. He also said he invented the imp and then John yelled at him on Twitter

[atomic dust]

lmao

[remote cedar]

Honestly what's up with Petersen

it's not the first time I'm hearing about him basically making shit up

[dapper flint]

No idea honestly. Really respect the guy but man does he like to make things up

And talk haha

[ornate vortex]

I swear Petersen once said doom is 1.5D

[remote cedar]

That makes 0 sense

what the fuck even is 1.5D

at least 2.5D rings a bell

but the game is fully 3D. It's just odd the way the Z axis is handled at times

[dapper flint]

Dude! I remember that too LOL

[formal monolith]

Sandy has been doing some podcast recently, talking about Doom and Age of Empires

[narrow condor]

1,5D? How would that work?

[formal monolith]

I did get the feeling he stretches the truth sometimes

[narrow condor]

The closest thing I can think of is rail shooters like Space Harrier.

[remote cedar]

How would you even be able to fathom something that's less than 2D

1D is just a line.

So how can anything be 1.5D?

[narrow condor]

1D games are possible; like those simple side-scroller RPGs in which your character just walks in a straight line and you only get to pick the actions like attack, run, items etc.

There's only back and forth, no jumping.

[remote cedar]

The game's visuals are clearly 2D, but it's true that the progression is purely unidimensional

what would 1.5D be then?

[finite crag]

the fuck

doom is 3D

there is a way Z-axis is handled sometimes, and that's why many people say that doom is 2.5D

but every room is doom is 3D

but that makes 0 sense that doom is 1.5

petersen needs to take his pills in xd

i'm done with the starting area of my slaughtermap

it turned out better than i expected

[tepid pilot]

Imagine the og doom games with UN

Also doom is a 3D game that has 2D graphics

Otherwise you would not be able to go over pickups without picking them up and projectiles would not be able to go over your head without hitting you

[ornate vortex]

Beat maps 1-5 of ancient aliens now.

Map 2 is actually a significant spike from map 1 but i think that’s because map 1 is more gimmicky than anything

the rest of the maps are somewhat the same level of difficulty. The start of map 4 was pretty heated but other than that it’s been quite smooth sailing

[rotund dew]

I'm starting to get fed up with sunder now.

In map 32. That's truly insane

it abuses the recipe of "here's a gazillion revenants and cyberdemons, and once you're done, have some gazillion archviles to resurrect everything again"

old sunder was tough but fair. the new maps are just bonkers

[ornate vortex]

i'm afraid new sunder is hardcore stuff, it's definitely some of the hardest stuff out there in terms of doom

[rotund dew]

I dunno yet, but i'm probably going to put the wad on a halt until later

it starts to be less fun and more of a huge grind

I like slaughtermaps but these.. jeez

[finite crag]

map16 is the hardest in sunder... prepare for it

[ornate vortex]

map 19 and 20 are also really tough

[finite crag]

map19 is longer but more manageable

btw, i made a slaughtermap

short, punchy

[finite crag]

than map16

[calm nest]

DOOM map-makers trying to create a non/slaughter map: Impossible

[finite crag]

mine doesn't have a lot of monsters

it will have around 150

But, it has height differences + it's wide open, so enemies will snipe you from everywhere

and obviously anyone can create a non-slaughtermap

so yeah, my map is wide open, enemies sniping you from everywhere, not much places to hide

and every key spawns in more monsters

except the exit key which is the red key

and the map is short

[rotund dew]

still in 32.. I was struggling with the fight with cacos and revenants to grab the red key, until I figured the obvious: leave the cybies alive

now in the mansion, let's hope the hardest fights in this map are done

map 16 is the gargantuan one that shares the music with sunlust's maelstrom? still haven't played it, but I heard things about it

[finite crag]

yeah, it shares it's music

i didn't play it yet, but i watched zm's demo

It's the big papa of Sunder

along with Map19

[rotund dew]

zm makes those maps look easy 😅 I personally go through a lot of save-scum in some sections.

mostly because I don't want to start fights from scratch, and these are some really long ones.

[finite crag]

i have a rule about saving

i can save if i want, but don't savescum

[rotund dew]

I'm not looking to be a doomgod, and sunder has some looooonggggg fights, so I have no issues with killing some 50 or 100 monsters, retreat, save then do it over again

I don't want to go through the effort of starting humongous fights all over again. some of these maps are already an hour long or even more

[finite crag]

If i have inspirarion, and if i really want to do it, i restart as many times as i need

[rotund dew]

if that's your cup of tea, then go for it. everyone enjoys the game in different ways, I just avoid if possible having to start huge fights from scratch

especially in this wad where the monster count is by the thousands.

[sturdy laurel]

There is the occasional map that has tens of thousands of monsters.

[junior karma]

not when it comes to maps, maps cannot have multiple ceilings or floors on the same Z-Axis. There are ways to do it with some trickery, but it's fake, e.g. lighting doesn't work doing it this way.

that's why people say it's 2.5D, some 3D logic exists such as missiles, while others such as map layout doesn't

it was also not possible to look up or down in the original

[tacit remnant]

Yeah it’s selective 3D

Ultra Nightmare in Doom 1-2 would be basically impossible

[spice radish]

This is like the backwards version of how Doom works

[tacit remnant]

Doom is 3D kind of but also not. Actor hitboxes, projectiles, and pickups have a definitive z value, but characters can’t stack on top of one another, explosions have infinite height, and you can’t have different explorable map areas overlap in the floor plan

[hexed escarp]

Wait have people not beaten it deathless?

[tacit remnant]

Not sure. My understanding is that single segment just requires you win without using saves; dying is allowed with the caveat that you lose all of your equipment and restart the level. It would be significantly more luck based if it is possible though. Nightmare is intentionally kind of unfair

[hexed escarp]

Ultra nightmare is not single segment though, it is permadeath. Dying sends you to the start of the games not the mission

[tacit remnant]

I know

My point is that I know people have done it single segment but that allows death

Beating UV deathless is absolutely possible albeit fairly hard. Nightmare I don’t know about but I’d guess it probably isn’t

[finite crag]

If i get tired of it, i save right where i am, then continue it the next day

[finite crag]

Profane Promisland & Okuplok vibes

[finite crag]

We forgot about doomdude, doombro, and doomchap

[analog ridge]

And Doomkaren

[rotund dew]

Okuplok is high on the "nuts" scale. Same with italo-doom

After sunder (which will take a while) I'm going to finish doom 2 in spain and then probably go to haste or the stardates

[narrow condor]

How does monster pathing work with co-op? Do they just chase the nearest player?

[tacit remnant]

I think so

If the enemy can’t see a player after waking up, it wanders around at complete random until it sees a player. It can only switch targets at certain times in their ai cycle, so it presumably targets the first player it sees and uses distance as a secondary metric

[narrow condor]

Wow, that changes everything.

[tacit remnant]

I should add 2 additional notes though:

1. If the enemy hasn’t seen or heard you, they just stand in place until they do.
2. If the enemy is set to ambush mode, they will only move once you’re in their sightline. Hearing a sound lets them see behind them but not move

[vast reef]

false statement
the built-in demos for the game use a mouse

classic doom was designed to be beatable with just the keyboard because they knew the average player would use kb

[atomic dust]

I really can’t best Plutonia with just the keyboard lol

[vast reef]

but it's not the "way it's meant to be played", just how most people played it

[atomic dust]

got it

[vast reef]

ngl i like using keyboard controls here and there

[atomic dust]

a friend of mine calls Plutonia a “glorified paid mod”

[vast reef]

i mean, doom 2 can be considered a glorified paid (official) mod for doom lmao

[tacit remnant]

That’s not strictly wrong

[vast reef]

yeah

final doom is technically a glorified paid mod

[atomic dust]

it’s more of an expansion pack than a full-blown sequel

only 1 new weapon and some new demons with many of them being variants of existing demons

[tacit remnant]

Doom 2 is a full sequel imo. It doubles the enemy count (admittedly with some reskins) and has a very different level design approach

[atomic dust]

I enjoy Doom II more than Ultimate Doom due to being more varied and the map designs are better to me

Downtown can go fuck off though

[tacit remnant]

Doom 1 levels are very claustrophobic with a heavy emphasis on minor encounters while Doom 2 levels are much more open ended and rely more on big fights

I love both personally

[finite crag]

how is doom 2 better designed

[atomic dust]

to this day, I still didn’t finished TNT and never played the Master Levels

[finite crag]

i'll protect doom 1 at any costs

[finite crag]

TNT is mid, it has some very long levels, but the ML, no, never play them

[atomic dust]

the maps are larger, have some complex stuff and it relies more on fighting demons

[finite crag]

It's the layout

[atomic dust]

Ultimate Doom sometimes focuses on exploration just as much, if not more than combat

[finite crag]

it's the layout not the design

[tacit remnant]

Doom 2 has some really cool levels like Circle of Death. Doom 1 has fewer really bad levels though

[atomic dust]

I hate Downtown and Citadel

[finite crag]

I say, Doom 1: More cramped, and sometimes it's very cramped. Doom 2: Too much wide rooms, and poor design

[atomic dust]

they are probably the 2 most confusing Doom II maps

[vast reef]

same

[tacit remnant]

I hate the city levels in general. I like most of the Doom 2 hell levels though

[finite crag]

the only hellish level in the hell levels is MAP28 but ok

[atomic dust]

Inmost Dens is really amazing though

[tacit remnant]

Yeah they don’t look very hellish but I still like playing them

[finite crag]

MAP27 is somekind hellish

[atomic dust]

people really rip on Nirvana but I enjoy playing that level

[finite crag]

21 & 23 & 30: awful

22 & 24 & 25 & 26: meh

[tacit remnant]

I like the Chasm but hating it is understandable

[atomic dust]

Dead Simple is a classic

[finite crag]

28: mid

27 & 29: very good

[tacit remnant]

Barrels O Fun is garbage

[finite crag]

yeah

[ornate vortex]

monster condo is very good?

[tacit remnant]

My favorite part of either game is Shores of Hell

[finite crag]

you have only a shotgun and some bullets to fight a horde of hell knights and pinkies

[atomic dust]

I’d say the first half of Doom II is the best part of the game

[finite crag]

i like it

[atomic dust]

after that it becomes a mixed bag

[finite crag]

it's very dark and atmospheric

[tacit remnant]

Monster shotgun is great for the horror side

[ornate vortex]

Monster condo is kinda mid imo

[finite crag]

Sure, it's a weird map but i like it

[ornate vortex]

that secret at the start is a pain

[remote cedar]

Oh yeah I completed Monster Condo earlier today

Well guess what. I had to cheat for that first secret

[ornate vortex]

I'm still trying to beat Crumpets map 4 and rush map 12

[remote cedar]

I am not replaying all of it just for a single secret

[atomic dust]

The Courtyard has a really good big fight in a large arena, but the rest of it is forgettable to me

[finite crag]

courtyard is good

[remote cedar]

also that one broken teleporter that's supposed to count as a secret but can't because of how teleporters work

I think that's legitimate to cheat for this one

[tacit remnant]

I always feel confused when people talk about Doom 1 starting high and ending low. Knee Deep in the Dead is fine but not really that special. Episodes 2 and 3 are pretty good with the occasional bad map.

[finite crag]

episode 1 is fine

but it's maps blend together

[tacit remnant]

Exactly

[atomic dust]

Fortress Of Mystery honesty feels like a new mapper’s first map

[finite crag]

ep 2 is my personal favourite, it's high points are much better than episode 1

ep 3 has barely any maps that are good or memorable

[atomic dust]

consisting of only 2 rooms and nothing else

[finite crag]

the only one i like in ep 3 is E3M6

oh and E3M4

[tacit remnant]

Fortress of Mystery wasn’t really made for the commercial release. It was made purely to demonstrate how infighting works to the other devs and was made a secret map so as to not waste it since Peterson went to the trouble of making it

[finite crag]

the rest of it is meh, and E3M5 & M1 are very bad

[finite crag]

could have been E2M10 or smth

and they could create a much better map for E2M9

[atomic dust]

Warrens is a really interesting secret map. It’s mostly the first level of episode 3 but when you get to the original exit, it becomes different

[finite crag]

yeah but i think it wad rushed

and i don't even want to talk about ep 4

the worst episode

no new music, no new nothing, just new awful maps

E4M7 and M8 are the only ones that are good

and maybe M3 but not quite

[atomic dust]

the drop in quality of maps is really noticeable in episode 4

the first 2 levels are like the hardest in Ultimate Doom

[finite crag]

E4M6 laughs at them

[atomic dust]

the first one is filled with Shotgun Guys everywhere and the only health pickups are a few health bonuses

[finite crag]

e4m2 is somewhat better, but E4M6 is the hardest in ud in my opinion

btw so yeah, i know that a lot of people protect doom 2, but the only thing doom 2 is better at is the super shotgun

doom 1: good storytelling, it feels like a real world, better design, and cramped areas

doom 2: no storytelling, just random maps thrown at each other, poor design, too much wide rooms

[forest zodiac]

It’s also the final map in the Jaguar port

[atomic dust]

yeah I know that

[finite crag]

“Good storytelling”

What too much doom does to a mf

Doom 2 plays fast and loose with what the maps are even supposed to be but they have a theme. Earth levels look vaguely earth like and the corrupted hell environments look hellish. I like that the hell corruption starts making everything more abstract and nonsensical tbh (don’t know if that was intended).

And the importance of the new enemies shouldn’t be downplayed

[azure nimbus]

maybe he means mood or tone? LIke sunlust map30 has a very different atmosphere compared to say fractured worlds map03

[finite crag]

first: by good storytelling i mean it feels like a story and a real world. Second, doom 2's hell level look nothing like hell, except map28

[finite crag]

sort of

[finite crag]

tf are you talkin about

I was joking about doom lowering your standards for storytelling lol

[finite crag]

and what does mf mean

i see it a lot

https://tenor.com/view/english-motherfucker-do-you-speak-it-english-mofo-samuel-l-jackson-pulp-fiction-john-travolta-gif-17016540

[finite crag]

then don't mf me

saul badwoman

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-bad-saul-goodman-bob-odenkirk-gif-8742926

ok

[finite crag]

Doom 2 sweep

[finite crag]

i don't like doom 2? and?

if you like it, okay. i just said why i like doom 1 better

don't be like 6 year olds who are angry at someone who doesn't like a thing he likes

Doom 2 sweep

[dapper flint]

How dare you like doom 2

[finite crag]

stfu bro you're salty because someone doesn't like a game made of random levels with huge rooms

Doom 2 sweep

[dapper flint]

[finite crag]

ok

[dapper flint]

Ah yes the enemy not in doom 1

[finite crag]

yeah

that's also why doom 1 is better

no fucking archviles or chaingunners

[remote cedar]

Ok but like

Enemy variety in Doom 1 is pretty mid

[glossy lagoon]

Yeah, I'm playing through DOOM 2 rn, and I do agree that whilst most levels don't seem to have as strong a theming, it definitely feels like there's been some development and theming.

[hexed escarp]

The first episode of doom 2 is good, maps 12 ,14 and 16-19 from episode 2 are good. Maps 22, 25 and 26 from episode 3 are good, I haven't played 28-30 yet but 28 and 29 are supposed to be good

Most of the music is garbage tho

Maps 7-10 and map20 and map28 have good music

[royal heron]

map11 with bfg is a mess

[hexed escarp]

The rest of it is bad tho

[royal heron]

jeez

[hexed escarp]

Yep

[royal heron]

so much open space to get fucked over with

[hexed escarp]

Yep

What do you do in the beginning

[royal heron]

I stil haven't really found anything

[hexed escarp]

Have you tried just rubbing past anything?

Running past everything

[royal heron]

I think I can combine your strat of just running to archvile by first camping in order to get the imp on the ledge to kill some shotgunners to get a shotgun

so I can hide in the soulsphere alcove

[hexed escarp]

I have a quick strat for semi consistently getting a shotgun at the beginning

I can show you when I have time

[royal heron]

hm alright

[hexed escarp]

But it's mostly just rushing the first few hitscanners with the pistol

And using the pillars to block shots from the imps in the center and other studf

Then you run around and kill some more hitscanners and get a chaingun from a chaingunner

[royal heron]

hm

[azure nimbus]

map11? The level with a free shotgun at the start? It's right behind you on the bottom of the stairs

[royal heron]

we're also running a mod that gives every enemy a bfg

we're trying to see if Doom 2 is possible with such a mod

map29 and 30 is most likely impossible

while there is a free shotgun at the stairs behind the spawnpoint, there's also an imp on a ledge that can snipe you from there

[hexed escarp]

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/134058-doom-but-every-enemy-has-a-bfg/

So far map 1-5, 7-8, 16, 18, 21, and 27, 28 have been beaten on uv pistol start saveless

[azure nimbus]

sounds balanced

[hexed escarp]

It's not, that's what's fun

Oh god I just imagined playing Plutonia with this, that would be awful

[ornate vortex]

try map 15 of plutonia

there’s more than 50 chaingunners in that map

[royal heron]

Chaingunners are already a nightmare with this mod

[dapper flint]

Ya ..no

[royal heron]

If the map isn't a rngfest then it's actually pretty fun

[dapper flint]

I thought bfg soilders in 64 were bad lol

[finite crag]

Skill issue

[finite crag]

xdd

I don’t mind the open arenas usually since a lot of the newer enemies are balanced around having enough room to move around, but it starts getting annoying whenever it’s super vertical

cough city levels cough

[finite crag]

map13 🤢🤮

map15🤮🤮

Getting butt fucked by hitscanners that you can barely see is fun

honestly, i hate map15 more than 13

[royal heron]

Lmao you ain't seen anything yet

Enemies in sniping positions that were annoying are now actually awful

[finite crag]

i think maps 12-15 is the worst stretch of doom 2

with map14 standing out

i don't really like map14 but it's design is an interesting choice

[royal heron]

City might actually be the easiest stretch playing this mod due to all the open space so less tracers hit you

[finite crag]

if mcgee's maps weren't so short and intense, his maps would have been completely forgettable

except map14

[royal heron]

Wait, 6 hasn't been beaten?

I need to rectify that if that's the case

Need to make it 1-8

[hexed escarp]

I don't think so

[hexed escarp]

This mod makes chaingunners fire bfg balls at chaingun speed

[finite crag]

oh god

[royal heron]

Ohhh right map06 is the crusher

I was working on that before actually

I might want to do that first instead of map11

[finite crag]

i can imagine 6 bfg balls coming per sec

[hexed escarp]

I just replaced the attack states so original rate of fires and charge ups apply

[finite crag]

oh

the normal fire rate of the Chaingunners are already very fast

but with bfg balls

it would have been completely unplayable

[royal heron]

Yep

If only I can put links here

[hexed escarp]

It is lol

[royal heron]

I recorded a demonstration before

[hexed escarp]

I put the doomworld thread a ways up if people want to try it

[royal heron]

reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/113g7qe/i_can_hear_the_screams_of_horror_coming_from_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Okay nice that worked

That should be the video I recorded showing the chaingunner blasting bfg balls into my face lol

[dapper flint]

Sound interesting honestly.

[hexed escarp]

Yeah it's a really cool routing challenge

[hexed escarp]

Basically if you are in a situation where any enemy fires at you and there isn't nearby cover you are already dead

[dapper flint]

Definitely a good movement excerice then

[hexed escarp]

Yeah

It would be interesting to see how it works with various pwads

Although if they have custom enemies it wouldn't work for those unless I made a custom version

[royal heron]

Yeah

If you want huge funnies though

Play a slaughtermap with the mod

Nuts is especially crazy lol

[analog ridge]

Anyone know the name of that big-eyed Cacodemon in Project ALALN?

[hexed escarp]

im curious if it would make smthn like sunder easier or harder lmao

[royal heron]

oh good idea

[hexed escarp]

lmao it makes the first few fights much easier

but as soon as you get to the part where you go outside it stops being helpful

this is for map01

pretty much whenever there is a cyberdemon it just annihilates everything else

bc if one other thing shoots and clips it, it can live

so it infights with whoever shot it slaughtering everything else in the process

sunder has such insanely beautiful scenery

too bad the gameplay is impossible

[hexed escarp]

is it just me or is the unhingedness of plutonia partially what makes it fun

[tacit remnant]

Not sure what you mean by unhinged tbh.

[hexed escarp]

just like the way that they didnt hold themselves back when doing enemy placement, they didnt worry about people thinking that they were putting too many revanents or that this trap was too evil ect

[tacit remnant]

So the cruelty? Yeah that’s definitely part of the charm

[finite crag]

Plutonia has made me paranoid

Any key I see from now on I save before picking it up

[hexed escarp]

yeah

any time i see any item on the ground

[tacit remnant]

Good. Paranoia is how you beat Plutonia

[hexed escarp]

i am wary to pick it up

[hexed escarp]

but it bleeds into other megawads playthroughs too

[finite crag]

Paranoia is how you best plutonia
But is it how you beat any other wad

Yeah that

[tacit remnant]

Depends. It never hurts imo

[finite crag]

That's my issue
Now I'm paranoid for any item that is like

[hexed escarp]

by itself

[finite crag]

Keys mainly but even things like weapons can do that

[tacit remnant]

Especially considering how much other wads borrow from Plutonia

[finite crag]

Can they borrow from not plutonia 😭
I haven't played much due to the stress factor

And also I suck

[hexed escarp]

my favorite parts of plutonia are the fights where it feels like its predicting my every move. Like it has a counter for every strategy before ive even done them

[finite crag]

Is this how you get jobs at valve
Physical torture
😭

I bet he designed xen

[tacit remnant]

Plutonia is pretty much what every high difficulty wad is modeled after to some extent.

Even much easier stuff often takes lessons from Plutonia combat design

[finite crag]

No he worked on the waste part in hl1

And

Dustbowl
What
No
That can't be right
There's no way

[tacit remnant]

The Casalis weren’t so much sadists as good level designers who wanted to make a kind of ultimate test for Doom 2

[finite crag]

Their levels are brutal but at least they're not boring and bad

It's the only reason to purchase final doo-

[tacit remnant]

Evil traps are a normal part of classic Doom’s DNA, so they took that to its logical extreme

[hexed escarp]

I loved the map09 circle fight, that was so awesome

I wish more of it was in the earth setting

I love the aesthetic of plutonia episode 1, it is so atmospheric

I’ve only beaten maps 1-13 so far but I’ve heard that the third episode gets kinda bad and/or easy

[tacit remnant]

It’s not as tough as the previous levels

IDK if I’d go so far as easy though

[finite crag]

Hey what's the worst Dario map
Is there even one

[tacit remnant]

Probably the finale

It’s an Icon of Sin map

[finite crag]

What about TNT map31

Aside from is it good?

[tacit remnant]

Haven’t played it

Icon fights are usually the worst map in their respective wads

I will say that at least Plutonia’s finale is an actual level instead of the joke at the player’s expense that is the Doom 2 final boss

[finite crag]

Well his best map would be badwater

It's not doom but it's the best map in that game idc

[finite crag]

Is it worse than pl goldrush

[tacit remnant]

I don’t remember goldrush

Please bear in mind I haven’t played Plutonia in well over a year and only went through it once

[finite crag]

Don't worry it's not from plutonia

[tacit remnant]

Then what is pl?

[finite crag]

Oh I didn't realise that
I meant payload from tf2
Sorry
The worst Casali map is probably dustbowl in terms of in general
With best being something from plutonia or badwater
I'm surprised on what's he's worked on for like
All of his stuff

[tacit remnant]

Oh okay

I haven’t played much of Valve games

[finite crag]

He's done some pretty important stuff for them

Or what he worked on
Mainly with others

He made power up from hl1

He's the only credited person for it

[tacit remnant]

The main reason I know he worked on HalfLife is because Civvie 11 mentioned it in his video on that game

The only Valve games I played were Portal 2 and a little bit of TF2

[finite crag]

The Casali locker is the best part of the video

[lethal sedge]

And I thought Mannpower was the worst thing he made for TF2

In the TF2 community, Dario Casali is known as "Mannpower dev" for a joke since Mannpower is the one mode to get updates despite not being popular

Anyways, TNT MAP27, I remembered beating it on Nightmare like 4 times over for no real reason. Actually for speedrunning but yeah

I did TNT MAP02 on Nightmare and I have no idea where all my skill gone to, I cannot do that again for the life of me. Probably for the better

Need to up my game for Nightmare difficulty

[analog ridge]

Is it possible to speedrun PluChaingunia?

[narrow condor]

Yes

[tacit remnant]

Just beat Citadel for my current Doom 2 playthrough, and IDK what you were talking about. I had a blast poking around secret hunting and seeing where different teleport pads go

[remote cedar]

Honestly Citadel is fun, although a bit confusing at times

It's not Monster Condo that's for sure

Getting 100% on Citadel felt worth it

[tacit remnant]

I mean, I also like Monster Condo for its spooky vibes

[remote cedar]

I hate Monster Condo for the stupid enemy closets + that one secret that closes after 30 seconds

Like seriously I don't want to deal with 4 pain elementals at once

Or 16 revenants

Or 4 hellknights and an archvile

[tacit remnant]

I’m not by any means a completionist so really hard to get secrets don’t bother me. The monster closets are admittedly a bit much

16 revenants isn’t too bad imo but fucking pain elementals. Why does Doom 2 have so many of these bastards?

[remote cedar]

Go figure

Especially when Lost Souls are spawning at full health

Something that Doom Eternal thankfully fixed

[tacit remnant]

Doom Eternal lost souls start out with extremely low health

Pain Elementals are my main use for the BFG

[finite crag]

They’re funny little guys

Look at him go

[remote cedar]

The "funny little guys" love to singlehandedly increase the total enemy count because you looked at them for 3 seconds too long

[tacit remnant]

And do it again when they die

[narrow condor]

Pain elementals are weird in just how much their threat level varies by their placement. No other monster has such a broad spectrum of difficulty. A lone pain elemental in a corner can be trivially punched to death without berserk without spawning a single lost soul, but a free-roaming pain elemental in a cyberdemon arena can multiply your chances of taking a rocket to the face by five.

It's very easy to peekaboo shoot if you just take cover with each shot before it can spawn, but it can make your life hell if it begins infighting with a distant monster.

[tacit remnant]

Oh yeah it’s a rare case of something you don’t want infighting

At least it can’t initiate it

[narrow condor]

Yeah

[finite crag]

If we didn’t have PE’s we’d probably just get a crap ton of individually placed lost souls which would be worse imho.

[narrow condor]

Pain elementals are a bit hard to use but I think they excel in putting pressure on the player. They're such a high-priority target that you can occupy the player's attention with some annoyingly strategically placed PEs as the arena floods with the other monsters.

[tacit remnant]

Yup. Archeviles are similar in that regard

[narrow condor]

Agreed

[narrow condor]

I also agree — lone lost souls always feel awkward in newer maps.

[tacit remnant]

I wouldn’t hate PEs if lost souls were significantly weaker

[finite crag]

goofy meatball

[finite crag]

I played many wads (and very hard wads, too) so plutonia is not too bad for me

[narrow condor]

You need to internalise that paranoia for future mappacks. Not all of them are as cruel but some of them are even worse. Nothing is given to the player for free. Anything you see, you must earn tooth and nail.

If you see anything around you that could be a monster closet or exit teleporter, it probably is.

I'm eagerly looking forward to Plutonia 3 (the real one).

[remote cedar]

Finished Doom 2 full completion

except for map30

[clear rapids]

uvmax?

[remote cedar]

Yes

Except for MAP30 and MAP15 iirc?

[clear rapids]

i dont think map30 really counts for 100% kills bc its pretty much impossible

[clear rapids]

thats tbe one with the pain elemental secret right

[remote cedar]

yes

[clear rapids]

also isnt required im p sure

gj

[remote cedar]

thanks

I took my sweet time with it tho

[clear rapids]

fair i would too

[remote cedar]

but now that I know how to get each secret I could probably beat my time

[clear rapids]

i dont remember all secrets by memory id have to wiki some

[remote cedar]

it was 7+ hours lmao

Also, I know I'm a sinner. I used freelook with Zandronum

and I will do next run on another sourceport

[clear rapids]

its alr you’re playing casually

[remote cedar]

at least I didn't jump

[clear rapids]

jumping breaks some levels and makes it too easy so i wouldnt reccomend that for people who do play casually

freelook is a more quality of life thing

[remote cedar]

if it's any better I did use freelook without autoaim

[finite crag]

freelook?

f.r.e.e.l.o.o.k.?

f r e e l o o k ?

i consider it cheating

you can reach things with freelook you're not supposed to

[dapper flint]

It definitely is unless with an appropriate mod

[remote cedar]

I tried my best to not reach things beyond a 58 degree angle

But I should do another run without freelook

[finite crag]

so uvmax saveless

[finite crag]

you can get 100% kills in map30

there is only 1 monster placed in the map

so you need to kill only him to get 100%

[remote cedar]

Oh the Revenant right

[finite crag]

yeah

[remote cedar]

I shouldve killed him

I'll redo map30 I think

[finite crag]

the spawned enemies count to the kills above 100%

@remote cedar

i think i'll do a uvmax saveless run of doom 2

but there are 2 maps i kind of forgot

26 and 29

i think i'll practice them first

i won't record a demo, because i'm not at home, and this laptop cries when i want to record a demo

no i won't because i forgot the secrets on most maps

[narrow condor]

Idea: Freelook but with default aim (+ autoaim). That is to say, no matter what angle you're looking at, your gun still fires as if you're facing straight ahead.

The game stays the same mechanically but people who are used to freelook from newer games can still play comfortably.

[atomic dust]

Tom Hall's vision for Doom seemed to be very different

he made an entire bible for the game

and of course, the other id members didn't listened to him and he left the company before the game was finished

at least he made some maps for the game before he left

honestly, Hall's vision of the game seems to be interesting. he wanted the level design to be believable, instead of just random non-linear maps that barely are connected to each other

[forest zodiac]

The Doom Bible released in 1998 is apparently a fraction of the whole thing

A museum in Texas has other development docs not seen before

Like an early sketch of episode 2’s intermission screen

[atomic dust]

wow

though the og Doom games turned out good, it would be interesting if id agreed with Hall's opinions in regards to how the game should be like

[forest zodiac]

Doom Shock again I guess

[atomic dust]

seems like Hall wanted Doom to be Half-Life before Half-Life existed

[forest zodiac]

I’m not sure I can go back to regular classic Doom after playing System Shock

[finite crag]

I mean
Goldrush is worse

[forest zodiac]

Anyway

https://twitter.com/DrPyspy/status/1615586075656982530?cxt=HHwWhMDQ-bu-2-ssAAAA

DrPyspy (@DrPyspy)

Apparently the Bullock Museum in Texas has a copy of the Doom Bible that differs from what was publicly released in 1998! Not only are there many differences in the text bits, but there are also concepts for the techbase themes and the world map of Episode 2!

Twitter · Jan 18, 2023, 5:45 AM

There was also that minor plot detail about firedust being mined on Tei Tenga

[atomic dust]

seems like Hall wanted the game to be story-focused

[forest zodiac]

Absolutely

3 is a really big homage to Hall’s vision if you look at it close enough

The Soul Cube matches the original Unmaker’s concept of a weapon being powered by souls

Sabaoth seems to be a nod to the BFG Cyberdemon the Doom Bible implied

[atomic dust]

I know the games are old, but it would have been good if the levels in Classic Doom had any indication of being connected

[forest zodiac]

E2M7 was originally the first level at one point

[atomic dust]

he sure would have been proud that id made a Doom reboot heavily based on his vision for the first game

[forest zodiac]

Also, 3’s progression goes from techbase to Hell to Hellish techbase

Episodes 2 and 3 were swapped late in development

So late that even the press release beta followed the original structure with the three included maps

[finite crag]

Yeah I don’t really care for Hall’s ideas

[atomic dust]

give him some credit though, his vision for Doom was Half-Life in a nutshell

he wanted the game to have a believable world, not just random non-linear maps

[finite crag]

Besides Hall and Carmack’s different approaches creatively Hall’s ideas probably wouldn’t have been possible back then

[forest zodiac]

System Shock released like nearly a year after Doom 1

[atomic dust]

I feel like Quake 2 is the first id game that used Hall's ideas

[finite crag]

Still haven’t played

Can’t really say for certain don’t know much about tech back then but Halls doom sounds very ambitious.

[atomic dust]

yeah, the technology back then wasn't very advanced

but perhaps the other id members just didn't liked his vision for the game and decided to make it Wolfenstein 3D but more advanced

character abilities, puzzle elements, environment interaction, cinematics, back story and game content

those stuff sounds way too ambitious especially considering the technology at the time

[finite crag]

that's why i love doom 1 better

it felt like a real world

and not just random maps thrown at each other with no connection

[dapper flint]

Downtown is the greatest map ever made↖️↙️

[prime lava]

I prefer doom ii, I don't care about wad progression, just want to see the individual maps being enjoyable

and doom ii was more enjoyable to me

[dapper flint]

Where you been dude haha

[prime lava]

Been around lol, not been playing doom that much though

Didn't make a decision to quit, just not been playing much for now

[dapper flint]

Makes sense. Everyone needs breaks

[tacit remnant]

Doom 1 originally was going to be one big world, but after about a month or so Carmack and Romero decided it was impossible with the current tech

[finite crag]

don't worry guys, he's just joking

...right?

[dapper flint]

Hahahaha yes

[rotund dew]

You mean nirvana (if you're being sarcastic ofc)

[forest zodiac]

that reminds me, the minimum requirements listed in the Doom Bible are hilariously low

Requires a 386sx PC compatible or better; VGA graphics; 2 Megabytes of memory.

[dapper flint]

Nope I mean downtown

[gusty falcon]

Mods like this warm my heart
https://youtu.be/C_97jvagf_E

[narrow condor]

Wow, very impressive.

[zenith berry]

DOOM is for everyone.

[waxen matrix]

RIPPING AND TEARING FOR ALL

[vocal summit]

good point, unfortunately, mt. erebus

[silent remnant]

said nobody ever

[tacit remnant]

Finally reached my old nemesis Barrels O Fun. Why are there so many pain elementals? Why are there more explosive barrels than medical supplies? Why is everything structured as hallways?

[hexed escarp]

i wish andrew hulshult would remix the rest of the doom 2 ost

so that we can have a complete replacement mod

and one for plutonia as well

[tacit remnant]

I don’t like to save scum, but Barrels O Fun deserves to be save scummed

[hexed escarp]

god damn plutonia map15 has a brutal start

im playing it with a version of idkfa (it has all of the tracks that he has done so far, which is all but the intermission, maps 20-23 and 25, 26)

and the remixed music makes the atmosphere much more crushing

its cool

[hexed escarp]

it feels like the maps are just getting shorter and shorter

13 and 14 were each really short

[atomic dust]

I honestly don't like Plutonia's last map much

it feels even more confusing than Downtown is

not to mention it's so huge

[rotund dew]

Why isn't there a super shotgun on pistol start on that level?

Makes the map way harder to deal with

[tacit remnant]

I’ve only played Doom 2 continuous, and I still have serious ammo problems because of the stupid pain elementals

[remote hare]

Can someone recommend me some wads similar to Eviternity or Antaresian Legacy?

[junior karma]

Valiant, Ancient Aliens

[storm tapir]

I beat doom 2 again on switch then keyboard because why not. Almost ran out of ammo or died a lot on switch while on kb+m it was a breeze. No idea how people don't go crazy using switch on doom eternal but I guess it is just practice and muscle memory in the end.

[finite crag]

plutonia map30 is small in my opinion

it's about the same size as doom 2 map30

[atomic dust]

oh god no

I meant the penultimate map

that city map

[finite crag]

pistol starts made me hate Barrels O'Fun

[finite crag]

oh

Odyssey Of Noises

Yeah it's huge

and it's confusing but not as bad as downtown

[azure nimbus]

I unironically like downtown more

[dapper flint]

I like you more

[azure nimbus]

I'm at least one step above a map

[remote cedar]

I managed to do Barrels O Fun with 100% everything and only using autosave at the beginning of each map. It took roughly 20 tries but I'm glad I managed to do it in the end.

[junior karma]

it's a pretty short map too with not many good spots to save, so probably easier or at least not much harder to do it saveless

[finite crag]

I find it kinda funny modern doom needs to put ammo limits on guns to get you to use more
Which I find weird because I'm playing doom 2 again and I'm using so many different weapons

@atomic dust why are you sentinel

[atomic dust]

I’m sentinel prime

not the realm, the autobot

[remote cedar]

To be fair there are still some weapons you're gonna use more than others

[finite crag]

Oh of course like ssg

[finite crag]

the problem with modern doom that is it's limited and people get bored of it after some time, because people can create just mods, not maps, and it's very hard to mod modern doom, while classic doom is timeless, people always learn something new about it, and people create maps non-stop for it

[remote cedar]

I find myself using the Super Shotgun, Chaingun and BFG the most

[finite crag]

But I couldn't use it the whole game

Even some times I was using regular shotgun

Even late game the plasma rifle was useful imo

[remote cedar]

I rarely use regular shotgun because super shotgun is often simply better

It's actually objectively better

regular shotgun shoots 7 bullets for one ammo while the super shotgun shoots 20 bullets for 2 ammo

Plasma Rifle is very good when it comes to getting out of risky situations but I don't rely on it often to save energy for the BFG

[finite crag]

Ssg is better but sometimes it's slower and I don't wanna waste 2 shots on a zombieman

But if it's something like cacodemons or mancubi then yeah definitely ssg

[finite crag]

Same here
I try to save it for bfg

But I find it to be like a fun gun cause of how well it kills

[remote cedar]

usually for zombiemen, shotgunners and chaingunners I like to use chaingun

because they go down very easily

Or I could very well use my fist if I have berserk

[finite crag]

I find myself using chaingun less but it has uses (stunlock)

[remote cedar]

it's more fun even though it's riskier

[finite crag]

Berserk is great

Modern doom has it too, right?

But isn't it like time limited

[remote cedar]

I think it does have Berserk but that's all I know

I haven't played modern doom

[finite crag]

Classic doom has time limited berserk

4 years I think, right?

[remote cedar]

lmao yeah

it lasts for basically the entire map

[junior karma]

modern doom is pretty much an entirely different game, it just shares some monsters and weapons, though even these behave differently

I think brutal doom is the closest thing to a natural sequel of classic doom, despite also diverging quite a lot from the original formula

[remote cedar]

True. Modern Doom is basically the opposite of Doom 3 when it comes to adapting the Doom formula

[junior karma]

or serious sam

[remote cedar]

Where Doom 3 leans in horror, Doom 2016 and Eternal lean into fast-paced action and gore

they're not equally as exaggerated in their execution but I think you see my point

[atomic dust]

yeah, nuDoom feels more like Sam

being locked in arenas until all enemies are killed

and I don't have a problem with that, I enjoy that type of gameplay

[junior karma]

actually I meant serious sam is closer to classic doom than modern doom, but I can see how the arenas are closer to modern doom

[atomic dust]

eh

[junior karma]

the weapons and run and gun gameplay of serious sam feels very similar to classic doom slaughter maps

[atomic dust]

I don't think Sam is close to Classic Doom at all

the levels are not non-linear mazes and you don't collect keycards

[finite crag]

Aren’t modern dooms more quake-like

[atomic dust]

yeah, they are

[finite crag]

it's better for sniping

[finite crag]

how

[atomic dust]

there's a Serious Sam spinoff called Bogus Detour, and it feels more similar to Doom and Quake

[junior karma]

true level design is definitely different, but many custom wads for doom are similar to serious sam levels in locking you in rooms

[atomic dust]

speaking of Sam

imagine Mental's Horde vs the demons fighting each other

Mental always sends his forces in large numbers

heck, imagine Sam fighting the nuDoom demons. they sure would be more of a threat to him than they are to the Slayer

[worldly crow]

has anyone played that shadowrun game for the snes?
id like to see that game ported to doom one day

[junior karma]

a serious sam doom crossover would be pretty sick

[worldly crow]

the closest we have is quake champions doom edition

[junior karma]

that's something the fighting game genre does that not many other people try

yeah quake champions is so different though

[atomic dust]

SS1 Ugh-Zan vs DE Icon Of Sin

[junior karma]

that doom quake champions wad was pretty well made though, was super cool

[worldly crow]

i still play it from time to time

[hexed escarp]

the archie trap in plutonia map31 is the most bullshit thing that i have ever played

[azure nimbus]

at the start? you can figure out where they are by determining their line of sight from when they begin attacking

but more realistically, knowing beforehand

[hexed escarp]

yeah knowing where they are is not the hard part

the hard part was at first it felt impossible to not get hit

i figured out a strategy but it was really annoying and still bullshit

andrew hulshults nobody told me about id is perfect for plutonia map32 tho

its the only map ive played that uses ntmai where the hulshult version doesnt feel too epic for the gameplay

[narrow condor]

It's funny how Go 2 It doesn't feel as impactful once you're used to modern slaughtermaps.

[upper crypt]

Can someone tell me why Slough of Despair has a random staircase on the right side of where you spawn?

[dapper flint]

[azure nimbus]

continuity. So it looks like doomguy entered the level from there

[remote cedar]

What's a good Doom 2 map to test if GZDoom's dynamic lighting options work?

I'm trying to see if I setup everything right but I'm not so sure about using MAP01 for that

[remote cedar]

nevermind I got it

[remote cedar]

Is there any way to grab the wad files of the Steam release expansions? I downloaded No Rest For The Living just to see if that would work but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Should I try with anything else?

[remote cedar]

nevermind. found it