doom-eternal

[azure oriole]

There used to be a typo on that screen

[tacit aspen]

I might have it wrong on my mind, I couldn't find it. So I'm sorry

[distant depot]

No ma'am, I have to complete the second chapter 100%

[distant depot]

It's ok, thanks for trying

[storm eagle]

Oh alright then. ^_^

[distant depot]

I'm kidding, I'm already on bed

And I already did 100%

[azure oriole]

Congratulations on completing the game on the hardest diffiuclty mode. You are one true Slayer!

[storm eagle]

Good work. Go to sleep

[drowsy oasis]

Does anyone know the weak point

For the dlc khan makyer?

Idk what her name is but I’m doing horde mode and she seems immortal

[tacit lantern]

New Doom game finna be peak

[regal walrus]

Blood Makyr?

[uneven vine]

the blood makyrs weakpoint is a headshot with the precision bolt or a shot from the balista while they are doing the attack where their gold armor vanishes and it turns red

[wanton atlas]

They’ll flash yellow or green (can’t remember exactly) and make a loud audio cue to let you know they’re vulnerable

Similar to the Marauder

[drowsy oasis]

Ty but figured that out during failure

I died and now have to do it from the beginning again

Because the possessed demons are fucking busted

[austere bronze]

Remember to explain to him that if he wanna do rocket or sticky bombs he first have to do a precision bolt shot (technically not needed but you want the extra speed), and that different weapons have different rhythms for it

[azure oriole]

They do? I just do it as soon as the fist animation is over lol

[austere bronze]

What do you do as soon as the fist animation is over?

You might not actually be punch swapping...

[azure oriole]

Press my bind for whatever gun

Pb was the fastest and combat shotgun was the slowest cuz i can’t skip the cocking animation

[austere bronze]

That animation is only after 5 shots tho

[nova drift]

@storm eagle you got tips for fighting the Gladiator?

[serene stone]

You can use his minions to meathook jump from above and rain damage on him from above.

You can also shoot him during the jump rope phase. The Chaingun shield is the best tool for that phase

[nova drift]

Noted

[quaint root]

Never thought of it

I'll use it in my current campaign

On nightmare, cuz i want to complete it on nightmare

[nova drift]

Remote Detonation can also be of help?
if you detonate it to the side of him it can do some dmg no?

[quaint root]

Mmmm, try it.. it might work

But i think he will instantly block it with his shield

I don't exactly know how it works

[nova drift]

is there any way to deal dmg without him bloocking other then the eyes glowing green thingy

[quaint root]

I don't think so

[nova drift]

bruh

[austere bronze]

Yes, use meathook

[serene stone]

I think it'll be too slow and damage inefficient.

I think Arbalest or Sticky Bombs would work better if you're getting high airborne mobility

Micro missiles from above is also good

[hearty flame]

yo guys i need help to properly deal with bloodmakyrs bc they are geniune pain in the ass in horde mode

[quaint root]

Alright, I've been thinking, are doom eternal speedrunners use mods?

[hearty flame]

even worse than maraders id say

[quaint root]

Cuz there is no way they fly out the map and skip the whole mission

Or fly across the map

[austere bronze]

Yes way

[quaint root]

Explain

[austere bronze]

Tech

[quaint root]

What?

[serene stone]

Depends on the category and what they're trying to go for .

People speedrun KaiserCampaign for example, which is a mod.

[quaint root]

If they are using programs then it's basically cheating, right?

[serene stone]

Exploits, tricks, and glitches

[quaint root]

Ohhhh, fair enough

Are those possible on the PS4? Just asking

For a friend

[austere bronze]

Slope boosting, ballista boosting, yeethooking, zip boosting, punch boosting, bunny hopping, edge boosting and rail jumping for example

[serene stone]

Yeah, but they're much more difficult. PC is much more speed efficient and precise, so you can do it much more efficiently, consistently, and easier on PC

[austere bronze]

Jaw speed is cool, but not used in speedruns

[quaint root]

I'd consider buying doom eternal on my PC

[storm eagle]

I support this

[austere bronze]

Same

[quaint root]

I currently only own DOOM eternal, doom 2016 and Doom 3 on the ps4

And doom 1 and 2 are on floppy disks

And doom 64 is on PC

[austere bronze]

All of these are names of different techs that affects your height, speed and stuff

[quaint root]

that's fair

[austere bronze]

Kaiser Campaign UN run would be cool

[quaint root]

You can do it, right?

You sound like you've already speedrunned the game

[austere bronze]

I actually haven't lol, I just know stuff

[quaint root]

Ohhh, lol

[austere bronze]

You can, but it would be very difficult if you're not skipping anything

[quaint root]

Yeah but i don't own doom eternal on PC

And my pc can't run Doom

And i don't have enough storage for it

[austere bronze]

When I said "you can" I wasn't talking directly to you, it was more of a general statement that someone can

[quaint root]

Ohhh

[austere bronze]

Heh, sorry for the confusion

[quaint root]

Nah it's aight

And even if i could've played doom eternal on PC there is no way in hell i can speedrun it

[austere bronze]

Eventually you could :)

If you really were interested in it

[quaint root]

Yeah true

I could spend like 2k on a PC and a monitor and buy doom eternal and play it for hours learning techniques and new stuff

[valid mist]

speedruns dont need to be using bugs or anything, dont even need to be fancy about anything, just blitz through as fast as you can, speedruns even have categories usually, any%, 100%, glitchless, etc so just do what you wanna do for one lol

[austere bronze]

If you spend 2k on a pc and monitor you'll have a very nice setup

[austere bronze]

There is no glitchless eternal category because it's almost impossible to get a glitchless eternal run lol

[quaint root]

Yeah, i can afford it

[valid mist]

point is part of speedrunning is just having fun with whatever you wanna do to go as fast as possible

[quaint root]

But i don't have any time rn

[austere bronze]

I believe there is: restricted, limited and unrestricted

[austere bronze]

Eyy, nice

[quaint root]

If i do, you'll be the first person to know in this server

[austere bronze]

I would consider myself something of a speedrunning veteran
(I played arc complex ML fast 1 time)

[valid mist]

i dont bother full on speedrunning anything, having to reset like thousands of times to save like .255 seconds woukd get tiring too fast lol

[austere bronze]

Yeah

But it can be fun just completing the game in like 30 min ig

[austere bronze]

Haha, thanks :)

[valid mist]

only games i have was nightmare in deamland bc just timed it out of boredom and all 4 shovel knight campaigns bc feats

[quaint root]

Aight, bye guys

It's getting late and i got work in the morning

[austere bronze]

I actually had a minecraft speedrunning phase, which disappeared quick

[quaint root]

Goodnight

[austere bronze]

Goodnight mate

[valid mist]

cya mark

[hearty flame]

pls i really need help against them

[austere bronze]

When they flash and their golden armour turns red you can shoot their head with either sticky bombs, precision bolt or ballista to kill them

[hearty flame]

do you need to hit their head? or just hit em with any of those options

bc when they flash red its hard to hit em while they do an attack

[storm eagle]

yes pb headshot

[hearty flame]

oh wait im a dumbass for not reading the text

[storm eagle]

Not the same but I love using the Ballista on Maykr drones. It's so satisfying, the noise combined with the weird zooming dead sound they make. Like bye bye.

peanut butter and jelly headshot

[hearty flame]

its just satisfying on its own to headshot a makyr drone and seeing all that ammo and health rain down

[storm eagle]

Absolutely. Confetti party and instead of their birthday they die

[hearty flame]

it still hurts how that i lost my horde nightmare run to a bloodmakyr yesterday

[knotty warren]

I never do this because I'm not always ready for the pushback of the ballista

Usually do percision bolt

But this is mostly to blame because of playing crazy mods like kaisercampaign

[austere bronze]

Start with pb and switch to ballista if you miss

It doesn't have that large knockback

[knotty warren]

No I usually just switch to another weapon without firing then retry the pb

[austere bronze]

Learn pb punch swaps, that's the best

[knotty warren]

It sux when Im in the air because nearly all the time if I'm going 4 a maykr drone headshot its right after meathooking onto it. I can dash to negate the pushback but I usually am in the air trying to move as much as possible, so I don't want to spend extra time finding a breather for the second dash refill

Seems like a playstyle problem to me but it worx so

[austere bronze]

Alright then

Learn pb punch swaps tho, those are the quickest

[azure oriole]

Melee lunge always screws me over when doing punch swaps

[austere bronze]

You have to stay a bit back yeah

[hearty flame]

imma start a new nightmare horde mode run

[austere bronze]

Good luck

[hearty flame]

hopefully i dont get fucked over by a bloodmaykr again

[austere bronze]

Just wait until you get to the last few arenas in the last mission :)

[hearty flame]

i legit died at the first arena round 2 in last mission to the bloodmakyr

[austere bronze]

Dang
Well, good luck with the rest then

[hearty flame]

imma record funny clips if i get the chance

[austere bronze]

Aight

[hearty flame]

bro yknow what just happened

i was like in the other side of the arena then i heard chomping in the distance

then i just saw a pinky relenlessly fighting a shield solider

imma send the clip once i upload it

[serene stone]

The melee lunge range is absolutely ridiculous tbh. I wish it was drastically toned down

I think I remember 2016 not being nearly as far for the lunge, unless you're glory killing

[hearty flame]

alright im back to where i was in horde mode

wish me luck

[serene stone]

Good luck

[hearty flame]

i finally beated horde mode on nightmare

but fucking hell possesed marauders are the fucking worst

[tacit aspen]

GG

[serene stone]

That is true

[hearty flame]

its just marauder on crack cocaine and meth

[serene stone]

And a lack of any sorta mechanical functionality

[hearty flame]

bro he fucking did 2 green eye attacks in the span of 2 seconds

like bro chill its not that deep my guy

[lyric lodge]

It is that deep bro you killed davoth

[hearty flame]

i dont have the dlcs

[serene stone]

You do have a point

[lyric lodge]

well you still stopped them from invading earth

[hearty flame]

pretty sure the ghost had big beef with me so he decided to posses the marauder

[tacit aspen]

Apparently spirits always possess the strongest demon

[slow sigil]

If you use mobile turret on a pos mara you could kill him because he keeps attacking and getting stunned

[lyric lodge]

you killed them all in 2016

[hearty flame]

and he came back for revenge i suppose

[uneven vine]

just beat super gore nest master level on classic mode lets gooooooooo

[hearty flame]

good job

[left eagle]

I get Infinite ammo cheat code and i beat Icon Of Sin with 10-15 shoots...With BFG 9000

[lyric lodge]

Yummers

[left eagle]

At the mouth of Khan Makyr and Spider Mastermind are one piece same

This is like mighty doom but 1+

[elder cobalt]

does the size/wind up of the dblade affect its damage?

[austere bronze]

Yes

1/3=800 dmg
2/3=1600 dmg
3/3=2400 dmg

[wild harbor]

can any help me to obtain those doom eternal multiplayer achievements i barely could find any server and if i find any i can be a slayer to begin with

[austere bronze]

And ofc bigger sizes with bigger charges

[elder cobalt]

how do u get a weapons stats?

[austere bronze]

Check pins

Tammie has a document and drakePHOSE has one which goes very detailed with damage stats

[elder cobalt]

cool

[left eagle]

I wait 2025 heh

[young mango]

Use the drakePHOSE one I made mine when I was less experienced

[left eagle]

that year will be cool

[elder cobalt]

anywau cant wait to play god of war ragnarok on september 19th

[austere bronze]

I usually use the drakePHOSE one but in the rare occasion of me needing to check somebtech I use yours

[young mango]

bulldozer one in there is just lowkey wrong tbh

[left eagle]

Can someone be my friend in Doom Eternal?

[austere bronze]

You can't be friends in eternal

[serene stone]

They might mean for Battlemode

[waxen grove]

damn. first time Taras Nabad slayer gate on ultra-violence and my heart is throbbing. damn this game is good

[serene stone]

I loooove that Slayer Gate

[left eagle]

/I press P and it says no friend in list

[waxen grove]

took me a couple of tries, it's long and I didn't have a 1up. I know it's only ultra-violence, but still

[young mango]

can’t believe I was asleep during a speedrun discussion

[azure oriole]

Hey, i am having an issue where the game looks horrible on Ultra settings and a 4k monitor. This is what it's supposed to look like: https://youtu.be/EI1ti-GnYjo and this is how mine looks like: https://imgur.com/a/68EsEc5 Any help would be appreciated

[warped osprey]

Guys I'm eating noodles after playing doom eternal and the noodles look like a big guts

[night rock]

Here's my theory : the Slayer comes from Australia

Change my mind

[warped osprey]

Rip and tear all the bugs?

[night rock]

Demons are scared of Slayer right ?

[warped osprey]

Yep

[night rock]

Then why they didn't attack Australia ? 👀

#screenshots message

[warped osprey]

Bugs(in austraila)> demons

[night rock]

Demons are afraid of Australia too. Why ? Because they know it's where the Slayer comes from and they're too afraid all Australians are like him 😎

[warped osprey]

Wait, doom guy is Australian?

[night rock]

I thnk so

[rocky obsidian]

how are you guys? Today I installed Doom Eternal for the first time and when I enter the game the campaign appears blocked, however I have the ancient gods 2 dlc unlocked. which shouldn't be the case since I only bought the standard version. I already checked my dlc to see if I can install the campaign and the option doesn't even appear (all this on the Steam platform). I already created and verified my Bethesda account so I have no idea what to do anymore. Does anyone have a solution? I am from Argentina.

[warped osprey]

Did you Reinstall it?

After you bought the standard version?

[rocky obsidian]

Not yet, I'm waiting to see if I find a solution. otherwise I'll try that

[night rock]

@azure oriole I don't understand Icon of Sin's story. Is he a demon, a Titan or the son of the traitor ?

[shadow nova]

try verifying game files

[azure oriole]

The Icon is a Titan that Doomguy killed in Doom II; it was then revived by the demons using the son of the Betrayer.

[slow sigil]

Yes, yes, and yes

[azure oriole]

Does anyone have any tips for beating un

[lyric lodge]

How does hell coordinate theyre attacks? Like how is a demon or titan just sent to earth

[shadow nova]

practice

[night rock]

I though Titans were immortals ?

[azure oriole]

My Doom lore guide has a section dedicated to explaining Hell's coordination of invasions. The TLDR is that they tend to either exploit holes in teleportation systems to hijack them and send troops, or they manipulate civilians to gain a foothold in the target society to rally more troops using rituals and Gore Nests.

[azure oriole]

Titans can be killed. It's just very, very hard.

[lyric lodge]

Who's under all of this? I mean, davoth is stuck in a ball, how does hell seemingly know how to exploit holes?

[shadow nova]

hell preists I assume

and other high ranking demon aligned creatures

[azure oriole]

Hell has demons and lords who dedicate themselves to strategy.

[night rock]

By "very, very hard" you mean that Titans we see in missions, almost cut in half, are still alive ?

[azure oriole]

The Spiderdemons, for example, were tactical generals who spearheaded invasions before Doomguy killed them all.

[azure oriole]

No, those are dead. But it took giant mechs to kill them.

[lyric lodge]

Ahh that makes more sense now. Thanks

Are you gonna change the doc once doom the dark ages's lore is figured out next year?

[azure oriole]

Yeah, I intend to do this.

[night rock]

I see. Thank you !

So what's the use of the Crucible ?

[austere bronze]

Killing demons

[pulsar zinc]

To kill titans

The mechs let normal people kill titans but only a king or another Legendary warrior can use the crucible to kill titans straight up

[azure oriole]

Like other Argent weapons, the Crucible is just a very powerful Sentinel weapon that is very good at killing. It also can serve as somewhat of an Argent conductor, allowing it to put Titans in stasis.

Presumably this could apply to other bladed Argent weapons but they don't make this very clear.

[night rock]

But Hayden said if the blade is taken off the body, the Titan will reborn

[pulsar zinc]

Argent/wrath energy is good for killing titans when concentrated into a blade, it negates their immortality.

[lyric lodge]

It more so cancels their life subscription until they subscribe back(taking out the blade)

[azure oriole]

Correct.

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah that’s due it’s immortality cuz just leaving the sword in puts it in a stasis you sealed it but break the blade off and it stays dead.

Or a mech’s argent blade can kill them with a fatal blow

[shadow nova]

well not reborn, just revived since its seal is gone

[azure oriole]

The Crucible does not kill Titans. It places them in stasis.

[shadow nova]

crucible might as well be a sealing spell for demons that can also cut them in half

[azure oriole]

Doom II already shows you normal people can kill Titans with normal weapons. Doomguy used a rocket launcher to kill the Icon back then.

It's just situational, very difficult, and perhaps not worth the trouble compared to an Argent-wielded shortcut.

[lyric lodge]

Why doesnt doomguy just use a special gun that makes things comically large to cut the icon of sin in half

[shadow nova]

cause no one invented that weapon

[lyric lodge]

Aw 😔

[shadow nova]

and I assume it would take massive amount of energy that rival even the bfg 10k which is impossible for a handheld weapon

[night rock]

In French version they says "Si la lame du Creuset est hottée, le Titan renaîtra". "renaîtra" mean "reborn", sorry for it ^^"

[pulsar zinc]

We only fought the icon of sin in the past when it was sealed in a mountain and had to shoot it’s Brain it’s weak spot to kill it back then it was nothing compared to its full might we faced in eternal which we had a straight up fight ofc

It is the greatest Titan, leading the Great Ones, called The Champion of Champions, it is the Eater of worlds cuz it can use its blackhole to suck universes into Hell.

https://i.imgur.com/YalbuLn.png

https://i.imgur.com/eb0wYp9.png

[night rock]

Yeah I remember that

[pulsar zinc]

And to be fair back then it didn’t have much lore about being a Titan or anything that’s new

[night rock]

Compared to "Bob" (I think community named this way), Icon of Sin is kinda small

[azure oriole]

The Icon is tiny compared to other Titans, yes.

It's by far the worst one anyway, though.

[night rock]

I'd love to fight Bob

Or something as big as him

[shadow nova]

well, ur in luck

[azure oriole]

The size rarely equates to the actual power of a Titan. If anything the Titan we see in the Trial of Maligog would be very poor for the purpose of invasion or warfare. Titans tend to be used as slave labor more than anything; their application in warfare is rare and swift.

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah Bob is huge but he’s an unknown, I would like to see him more and know more about him but he’s just a guardian that we wouldn’t see till maybe a sequel.

But lore wise and feat wise the Icon of Sin is the strongest. Even tho the Great One in 2016 called the champion of Hell is estimated to be possibly bigger than the Icon of Sin it is still inferior, probably why they dropped the line “champion of champions” to make sure you knew he’s above the Great One.

Most titans are slaves and while above the vast amount of demons they likely are still below their demon lord masters, but the Great Ones and the named titans are the stand outs ofc.

[shadow nova]

seeing more named titans would be cool

[pulsar zinc]

It would of been Kool if we got to do the dreadnought fight as the slayer for his first time tbh but we are past that now sadly

[night rock]

I know but it'd be soooo cool to fight something this absurdly huge 😄

[pulsar zinc]

I hope we get to fight the Baalgar Demon near the end setting him up to become the CyberDemon in 2016

[night rock]

The "Great One" and the Icon isn't the same ?

[night rock]

YES I'D LOVE TOO !!

[pulsar zinc]

No

The Great One which was the champion of Hell is the Titan we killed in the testament and we see his corpse in 2016.

The Icon of Sin is the greatest Titan ever it even leads a group of Titans called the Great Ones the strongest titans, and it’s called the Champion of Champions in comparison to them.

[night rock]

I'm actually reading all DOOM Eternal codex and I now know that the cape he wore in TDA mean he's a king

[night rock]

We see him in 2016 ? Where ? :o

[pulsar zinc]

I think you’re not reading what I am saying right or forgetting stuff

Remember the bones of the Titan we see in the Titan realm in 2016? That’s the Great One, the Champion we killed in the slayer’s testament.

Technically we do the Icon of Sin in 2016 but he’s sealed in the mountain again, I forgot where we see him in Hell.

[night rock]

That was the Great One ? Oh....I though it was just a Titan like any other :c

[night rock]

His head is above the fight to get the hell Crucible

[shell fox]

You see him in The Necropolis

Might not be the same though

[azure oriole]

The Icon's appearance in 2016 may just be a reference considering the visual differences from the Eternal version.

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah there’s a reason we get told the story at that area lol it’s fine

It seems we are the only one who fights the big named titans to kill while the random slave titans are dealt by Mechs I guess they might be to powerful for anyone but us tbh

[azure oriole]

In Eternal he's in the custody of the Maykrs. I think during 2016's development they likely did not come up with the lore deciding the Icon to be the same species as the Great One.

[pulsar zinc]

I’m pretty sure it’s the same one, I read some lore about it but I can’t remember atm so I’ll have to double check cuz I’m not feeling so good atm

[azure oriole]

Nothing in the Codex says they are the same one.

[azure oriole]

Aren’t they practically indestructible by any means available to humanity

[shell fox]

The Icon in the Necropolis looks like decoration lol

It doesn't look like anything that was alive

[lyric lodge]

I mean, you see dead titans in the Exultia level.

[lyric lodge]

With no crucible in them btw.

[pulsar zinc]

That’s a possibility tho it could be they had him sealed in Hell till eternal, pretty sure it was seen as risky to do the ritual with the icon in Urdak but I’ll have to double check

[azure oriole]

Gonna have to reread the wiki on them

[shell fox]

The Great One also died to no Crucible

[lyric lodge]

Its probably just convenient to use a crucible i would assume

[pulsar zinc]

That’s the sentinels not humanity

The sentinels have argent/wraith energy and superior mechs to kill them

[lyric lodge]

yeahhh but he probably didnt mean it that specifically

[shell fox]

Doomguy killed the Icon and the Great One without a crucible

[azure oriole]

I just meant by means available to humanity

The titan that attacked the sentinels was especially powerful though

[lyric lodge]

Damn you did mean it that specifically

[pulsar zinc]

Well it’s implied he used a crucible in the game and even the lore book shows the crucible when talking about it, tho in 2016 they almost hit you used the demonic crucible or a crucible yet they are so vague and don’t confirm anything, we just know he had a sword and shield so it’s left to interpretation tbh

[novel vector]

i mean you dont need the crucible to kill a titan

but it can be ressurected if you dont use one

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah he said “humanity”

[shell fox]

Sword and shield is most likely just praetor suit and ssg lol

The SSG is consistently referred to as a sword metaphorically

[pulsar zinc]

Titans are invulnerable to conventional weapons but argent/wraith energy with enough of it can kill titans

[novel vector]

like that one research log of doom slayer where she starts worshipping him

[lyric lodge]

For humanity to be able to kill titans theyd probably need the shit samuel hayden was cooking up going by this info

[novel vector]

"who carries a steel-barreled sword of vengance", or something like that i dont remember it exactly

[azure oriole]

“Atop mighty Thralls, the Hell Priests oversaw the invasion of the mortal world. The Thrall, slave titan of the underworld, carried the Priest Temples into the wake of battle, providing the Priests with vigil of Hell's advance from a strategically impervious emplacement. From their Temples perch the Priests would emanate a powerful psionic influence, imposing greater coordination among the chaotic forces of Hell and increasing their battle effectiveness. The Thrall, possessing superior resilience, proved indestructible by conventional weapons, thwarting all attempts by Armored Response Coalition defensive forces. Only by severing the Priest's psychokinetic tether could the Titan be neutralized - an act that could only be accomplished by an infiltration of the Temple itself.”

[pulsar zinc]

Assuming the suit is the shield is weird especially since we now see him with a literal shield, especially since when the armor is talked about it’s straightforward

Now maybe the sword is the super shotgun but that’s an assumption and it isn’t confirmed.

[lyric lodge]

dr elena richardson was hungry

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah

[novel vector]

back then, they probably werent thinking about the dark ages yet

the plot yeah

they had some idea of the plot

but i dont think they were thinking of the gameplay mechanics/weapons

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah but back then was before all the extra lines about the super shotgun being his sword either

I don’t see the armor being called a shield and it was not implied in the statement.

[shell fox]

The shield seen in the dark ages is also pre-praetor, and the way the "shield" is described goes in line with how the narrator of the Testaments described the praetor suit.

[azure oriole]

So at least the thrall class of titans can’t be killed with conventional weapons. They could perhaps be put down with nukes though.

[shell fox]

Nukes would vaporize em

[azure oriole]

I don’t think it’s ever clarified if nukes were used on them

[shell fox]

Using a nuke would be extremely difficult in such a situation

[novel vector]

a demonic nuclear wasteland would go so hard

for a level theme

[pulsar zinc]

No they are immune to conventional weapons and humanity had no weapons that worked against them

[lyric lodge]

Only thing that gon do is wipe out humanity not demons

[shell fox]

Except when we literally kill one in Doom 2 with conventional weaponry

[azure oriole]

You’d think ARC would try since the thralls are holding the demon equivalent of generals but idk

[azure oriole]

I'm sure you could nuke one to death or something, but at that point you're decimating the land around the Titan as well. Not worth it at all.

[novel vector]

it would kill demons, if a pistol kills demons, i think a nuke can'

[azure oriole]

Icon is just ass

[lyric lodge]

titans aint dying to nukes probably

[pulsar zinc]

The icon of sin fight was before the Titan lore so that’s a bit dishonest and not fair, also we killed it when it was sealed and only by its weak spot the Brain.

[novel vector]

its fair, the titan lore was made presumably with knowledge of the icon'

[lyric lodge]

His brain was exposed in eternal why not just kill it like that

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah that’s true it’s pre praetor suit

But no I do not agree

[novel vector]

im probably wrong, but isnt it praetor suit?

theres multiple itterations of the praetor suit, right?

[azure oriole]

The doomslayer can empower his conventional weapons right?

[pulsar zinc]

His brain was not exposed till the end when he was already beaten down and we used the crucible on him

[pulsar zinc]

Yup

[lyric lodge]

Yeah, just kill him at that point

[novel vector]

im pretty sure hes not doing anything to power up his weapons

[azure oriole]

This wouldn’t really apply to classic doom but could explain how a double barrel shotgun breaks hyper advanced Makyr armor lol

[novel vector]

it was made by the sentinels

[azure oriole]

Do you know where that’s stated

[novel vector]

that probably has something to do with it

[shell fox]

This still doesn't explain the Great One; Samuel states that Crucibles only "stop" the Titans, and that if the blade was to be removed, they would rise again, The Slayer goes on to repeat this process with the Icon, which shows it most likely does not kill them. So, how did he kill the Great One?

[pulsar zinc]

Again the old icon of sin fight is before the Titan lore so it’s not fair to use as an accurate representation of titans, the fact that he has to use the crucible to kill it due to its immortality shows just shooting its brain probably wouldn’t have worked this time.

[novel vector]

im pretty sure they do die when you kill them, they're just able to be ressurected by an outside source

unless you use the crucible

[shell fox]

The crucible doesn't even kill them as far as we know

[novel vector]

doesn't it?

[shell fox]

That's why the slayer tore the handle off and not the whole crucible

It just puts them in stasis

[novel vector]

i guess if someone pulled off the blade

[shell fox]

So, how did he kill the Great One, hm?

[novel vector]

which would hurt

[shell fox]

Samuel says the Dreadnought would rise again if the Slayer tore the blade off

In short, they can most likely be killed through other means

[azure oriole]

It being before the lore is irrelevant. The new games recontextualized the originals as canon to the modern Doom universe, so their details are still relevant.

You just have to reconcile the new with the old.

[shell fox]

We see no crucible around the Great One's corpse, this means it would have risen again

[novel vector]

isnt that already canon, doom 2 icon of sin seemed pretty dead

[shell fox]

Carnifex is arguing that they are somehow immune to all non argent weaponry

[azure oriole]

This also proves that killing them is possible without a Crucible. The fact that it's a skeleton means it died.

The Dreadnought is older than the Great One yet its body is intact. Because of the Crucible.

[shell fox]

Exactly.

[azure oriole]

It’s probably just an issue of bypassing their insane endurance and regen, which anything below the level of like nukes can’t really do

[novel vector]

im 99% sure that they dont ressurect on their own

i think an outside source has to do the work for them

[azure oriole]

It also depends on the type of titan you’re talking about

[shell fox]

The Crucible puts them in some sort of stasis (as the blue lines that emerge from the stab wound would suggest), which would indicate they just

[azure oriole]

Yeah. Titans are inconvenient to kill and inconvenient to deploy.

[shell fox]

Rise again after it is removed

[azure oriole]

Some are stronger than others

[novel vector]

kinda weird, considering in tnt you can kill him with a pistol, i know tnt isnt canon, but still

[shell fox]

There's really no proof they're invulnerable to anything that isn't the crucible

That's just overblowing what Samuel said

[azure oriole]

Yeah Titans are objectively not immune to all non-Argent weaponry. Doom II, a canon installment, proves this wrong.

[novel vector]

i dont think samuel is a 100% reliable source, its like 343 guilty spark from halo, most of what he says is right, but he's probably going mad from all the time hes been alive

he also just, wants to kill you later on

[azure oriole]

I think Samuel might just be speaking from the perspective of the doomslayer, because nothing he wields besides the crucible can actually put a Titan down

It’s not like he has a nuke he can lob at em

[shell fox]

I agree, but everything we've seen some far is pretty in-line with what he said about the crucible being just a way to stop them, not kill them.

[novel vector]

unless you like blend the body up into a icon of smoothie, and scatter it into lakes of lava, theres not that many ways to fully kill them

because someone could just wedge out the crucible blade

[azure oriole]

Hayden has been wrong before. He gives us contradictory info on the invasion of Argent D'Nur in the Taras Nabad level.

[shell fox]

Yet the Slayer somehow packed the Great One up, so

Unless the Slayer farted a nuke and threw it at him

[azure oriole]

Yeah, and not with a Crucible.

[shell fox]

I'm pretty sure humanity saw the Titans as invulnerable because they just consume too many resources, and they cannot endlessly self-replenish against the Horde unlike the Slayer.

[lyric lodge]

Codex always most reliable source

[novel vector]

imagine the great one just keeps on rising up after doom guy kills him, so he just keeps on shooting until all the flesh and nerves are gone, while the great one keeps on falling and getting back up

[shell fox]

The Slayer works so well because his ability of being a single man that can extract the needed resources from his enemies makes him a perfect counter to the horde.

[novel vector]

i dont think the codex is 100% either, its from the perspective of many people, and it contradicts itself about davoth

[lyric lodge]

better than stupid hayday

[novel vector]

damn shady hayden

[azure oriole]

In the specific case of Taras Nabad it is the superior source over Hayden since it was written by Argenta. In other cases the Codex is a bit less reliable.

[novel vector]

kinda love that about the codex, makes it more realistic, isnt the best for lore keepers though

[lyric lodge]

I say instead of relying on codexes write an actual cohesive story

[novel vector]

if you go any more lore than what there is now, people complain about there being too much

[wanton atlas]

Well TDA might be addressing some of those problems, given it’ll have a greater emphasis on the story

[azure oriole]

This seems to be what TDA is going for.

[novel vector]

its good that a lot is in the codex, most people dont mind, and people who dont care about lore, can skip most of it

[shadow nova]

ive never seen anyone complain about too much lore

codexes are optional

[lyric lodge]

Doesnt make sense, no one really complains bout that

[pulsar zinc]

No the crucible does kill Titans but only when you break off the blade in their brain as shown with the pulse of energy that goes through them. And it’s said that the only weapon able to kill titan class enemies is the crucible, it doesn’t say the only weapon to put them to sleep it says kill in game.

The titans are sealed and put in stasis if you leave the whole sword in them that’s true.

I’ll have to go over the shit for 2016 cuz it is implied a crucible was used but obviously the lore for titans and crucibles were not set in stone yet so they just had him destroyed and splattered on the floor.

I don’t think it’s fair to use Doom 2 as a standard for titans cuz it’s before that lore tbh

It being canon to the new does not mean everything fits perfectly but they try to make it all work, the icon of sin back then is nothing compared to what it was now clearly not on the same level.

I read some lore back again and the Dreadnought was stated to be invincible to the Sentinels none of their weapons or men can beat it alone, after the slayer beat it they made the mechs with argent energy and help with Maykr tech so they could kill titans.

To use the past of the Doomguy killing the icon before it’s Titan lore as proof they can die to normal weapons is not fair, the new lore and everything else now says normal weapons can’t kill them, you need argent/wraith energy or the power of Doomslayer to splatter them if we think he only had his shotgun to kill the Great One the champion Titan.

I’ll have to go through the lore again

[lyric lodge]

Welp im stoked for TDA then

[pulsar zinc]

People on the Reddit complain

[lyric lodge]

Reddit is not relevant i refuse

[novel vector]

no one complains about it now, but ive heard plenty of people complain about doom 2016's unskippable cutscenes, for instance

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah

[novel vector]

redditors arent people

goodbye humanity, im in the incel cave now

[azure oriole]

I will not accept "this canon game should not be taken into consideration because it was written before the lore" as an argument. Doom II is objectively canon to the new games, and its events objectively happened to the Slayer. Regardless of when it was written, canonically Doomguy killed the Icon of Sin with a rocket launcher. This has been canonized into the modern story.

This is disregarding canon story information for the sake of reaching convenient conclusions about lore. That's not how it works.

[novel vector]

it being before the lore does not make it unfair, if anything, it makes it more fair, because its been something thats always been there

[shadow nova]

hugo himself said the new games are a reboot that just take hints from older games, canon for doom is subjective

[novel vector]

being subjective is certainly one of the lore setups in gaming

[azure oriole]

The new games are a soft reboot, not a hard reboot - the reboot in question relates to the tone and style of storytelling, not continuity. Eternal's established the older games to still be relevant to continuity (albeit mostly separate as they happened eons ago).

[lyric lodge]

I honestly wished it wasnt a reboot altogether and connected the story better but it is what it is

[azure oriole]

You can argue the Titans as a species changed over time or something like that, sure. But Doom II, like, happened still.

[novel vector]

i mean the main thing that was rebooted, was the gameplay

[lyric lodge]

The story itself was also soft rebooted tho wasnt it?

[novel vector]

thats why i said the main thing

[open tiger]

Except that hugo said multiple times that the slayer doesn't need a mech to kill titans.
The champion titan was killed long after what a mech would normally last for.
The demons themselves said that the armour is impenetrable and unyielding, and it's something way higher up than a baron.

Lesser titans like thralls are straight up immune to conventional weaponry.
Greater titans like the champion or icon of sin are logically going to be more durable, especially considering that the icon could survive destroyed spacetime, a black hole, and the consumption and throwing of said universe into hell.

[azure oriole]

On top of this Doom 64 received content that deliberately ties it to 2016.

[pulsar zinc]

I didn’t say the game isn’t canon and to dismiss it all but I think you have a flawed view to say that it lines up with the current lore, he was not a Titan back then they can’t change what happened but now he is a Titan and the lore about titans is very clear, the lore changed overtime hell it had changes from 2016 to eternal so not everything fits together perfectly and some stuff is retconned or different now.

I’m not feeling well still from my flight I need to eat and take some pills and rest a bit more so maybe I’ll come back to this later, I wish yall understood what I meant but it’s fine, I get what you mean yet it is not taking into consideration the changes.

[azure oriole]

Yeah you are proving my point. The mech thing proves my point. The Slayer killed the Great One with a conventional weapon, not a Crucible.

[open tiger]

It was bare hands and weapons but yeah.

[azure oriole]

Some stuff is retconned but you're assuming Doom II was retconned, or that info from it was retconned. This has not been stated.

[pulsar zinc]

This is true but he will not agree, I need to argue with him later about doom scaling cuz he somehow thinks gameplay is accurate and that the doomslayer isn’t vastly more powerful than most things in the verse so he thinks normal demons can kill him.

[azure oriole]

The older games have explicitly been shown to connect to the modern games. Their info is presumed to be canon unless otherwise stated. Feel free to disregard whatever isn't convenient to you, but it's just going to result in an incomplete understanding of the story, and you could end up disappointed with whatever is said in future games.

[novel vector]

also hugos interviews says some wild stuff that just kinda ruins things,

the things hes said about primevals kinda makes doom guy immortal in a way, i dont think thats a good idea

[azure oriole]

Hugo has been wrong before. He is not a 100% objectively correct reliable source. Creatives can, have, and will continue to change things on a dime if they believe it will improve the plot.

[pulsar zinc]

Never said doom 2 was retconned but how titans are and how they die is, to say it’s accurate with current lore for titans is incorrect.

[shell fox]

Love the gymnastics needed to believe the Icon has universal durability but titans can be harmed by the slayer's weapons at the same time

[open tiger]

That can be easily explained as a retcon, as the icon of sins nature changed tremendously, or the slayer's passive ability as a primeval to empower his weapons.
As hugo said, the slayer always was a primeval.

[azure oriole]

Not really lol, nothing explicitly said in the new games contradict the method by which the Icon was killed in Doom II.

[austere bronze]

True, the slayer would never be able to deal 1 damage with a punch, 0,2 max

[shell fox]

Universal Super Shotgun y'all you heard it here first

[open tiger]

Not really.
They are in an "immortal slumber" and will wake up at the end of times.

[novel vector]

also, a lot of his answers are on the spot, nothing really planned, maybe he just didnt include details that werent too relevant, for example, iirc the answer that made doomguy immortal was to a question about the slayers mark

or just remembered them wrong, hes a human after all

[slow sigil]

yeah the "immortal slumber" of being dead

[azure oriole]

Yeah exactly. Many of these questions are putting Hugo on the spot when he already clearly doesn't just have all this photographically memorized.

[open tiger]

Never addressed

[shell fox]

Hugo just makes things up on the spot

[pulsar zinc]

You call it ridiculous but you don’t know how to power scale and you just saying it’s ridiculous means nothing, he killed a God with his hands and weapons but I’ll get to that another day cuz I’m feeling ill.

Anyways ima go and I’ll argue about this another time

[trim quarry]

Thought as much

[azure oriole]

I don't give a shit about powerscaling, no.

I care about Doom.

[lyric lodge]

Manz needa write a google doc on every part of the franchise because istg my guy doesnt know the game any more than the fans 😭

[azure oriole]

I'm sorry man but I've been researching and fixating on this topic for years. I know what I'm talking about and I've put in well worth the effort to come to these conclusions. Your powerscaling shit is not going to convince me or change my mind, actual proof will.

[open tiger]

And a demon corrupted their greatest warrior (gargaska?) And made him a titan class demon.

[slow sigil]

you don’t know how to power scale
okok lets see where this goes
he killed a God with his hands and weapons
he killed a guy that used to be god, but had lost near ALL his power. He then killed him by mostly just shooting him with completely "ordinary" (for them) weapons.

maybe you don't know how to powerscale if you think this is a super hardcore feat that somehow makes him hypersuperomnipotent

[azure oriole]

This part is unclear. The Drumavi invasion's place in the timeline isn't entirely clear and I personally believe it happens after the events involving the Gargaska Titan.

[open tiger]

The father clearly says that he will regain his full power with his physical form.

[azure oriole]

Hey, i am having an issue where the game looks horrible on Ultra settings and a 4k monitor. This is what it's supposed to look like: https://youtu.be/EI1ti-GnYjo and this is how mine looks like: https://imgur.com/a/68EsEc5 Any help would be appreciated

This is up to interpretation though.

[novel vector]

there probably is something like that in id software's stuff, but he probably wasnt pulling anything up for the interviews and stuff like that

[open tiger]

I remember it was in the third age

[pulsar zinc]

No need to be rude about it, power scaling isn’t against doom or it’s lore, you can not like it but it is not the enemy, it is simply using the information in the lore, the story, and feats we see to figure out how impressive said character is that’s all.

I will try to show you proof in dms but your attitude is an issue if you are so against it then you might be more stubborn and biased against it making it harder to talk to you about so chill out.

[slow sigil]

that was before tag2 retcons though, and he didn't really use his power either except to summon very weak demons and to teleport

[novel vector]

he was also saving stuff for later projects, the lore book (is that even coming out), later games, etc

[azure oriole]

If it is, then the Gargaska Titan's events came beforehand. It helped invade Argent D'Nur in the First Age.

[shell fox]

You base your overtly insane scalings of Davoth, and by extend, the Slayer on the vagueness of the codex. Even if Davoth farted the multiverse into existence (which he likely didn't), this doesn't mean he has multiversal durability; characters like Scarlet Witch are extremely fragile physically but able to reset entire multiverses.

[lyric lodge]

The rule of a writer having to always know his own story more than the fans really is in need of being applied here

[azure oriole]

I am chill. I am not being hostile to you. I'm being blunt - there's a difference.

[open tiger]

Hell can revive them so....
Temporarily dead if.

[novel vector]

i mean, he does know more, theres a lot of doom lore, and memorizing every single piece of it isnt the easiest thing

[open tiger]

Well, Davoth breathed urdak into existence, which isn't far from a fart lol

[azure oriole]

I've been here for years, I've studied all of this for years, memorized it all for years, and compiled it into the most reliable guide on the subject for a year. I've kinda earned the right to say "I know what I'm talking about," and with all due respect to you, I'm not going to be convinced otherwise by a new member who is jumping in and saying I'm wrong without properly sourcing their arguments. Properly sourcing my arguments is how I got to be confident in what I know about this.

[slow sigil]

"breathed" is a giant overstatement though

[novel vector]

its like asking kelly gay to recite every word of every halo game, every halo book, every halo show, every halo cookbook, when she just writes some of the halo books

[slow sigil]

davoth's strongest feat, if accurate, is that he is just a really good engineer

[pulsar zinc]

Davoth was not weakened this is a misconception and even if he was he was gonna destroy all of creation with his own hands which is confirmed in game a few times, but sure just downplay.

Your attitude towards me and scaling is clownish and immature but sure you don’t have to believe me. Maybe just be less of a dick.

[strange gale]

then why'd he give up immediately after his shitass mech started smoking a little?

[azure oriole]

Davoth was absolutely weakened lol. This is evidenced by his appearance in TAG2.

[lyric lodge]

Giving out of touch info on the spot really does trip off some ppl tho

[open tiger]

"Effortless breath" was the exact wording

[azure oriole]

Davoth required an Immoran mech to stand up to the Slayer and then gave up as soon as it stopped working lol.

[novel vector]

i mean he probably wanted a warriors death

[azure oriole]

And don't give me the "honor" thing. He clearly intended to keep fighting. He grabbed his sword again and only dropped it when he realized he wasn't gonna get any further.

[lyric lodge]

Doomguy technically has if not a part of davoth's power right?

[pulsar zinc]

Okay just making sure cuz some people here are, I can’t always tell.

[open tiger]

@azure oriole
Hugo said that they had lots of production issues, and had to dial back a lot.
He wanted to make Davoth a dragon, stop showing the lore via text and show it via action (something he said they are aiming at with the dark ages)

[novel vector]

probably like eschaurum from.... my god why am i making so much halo comparisons... Halo Infinite.

He wants to win, but he is perfectly fine with dying a warriors death, instead of dying of old age or something like that.

[azure oriole]

Yes, this is correct, but canonically he did not turn into a dragon.

[strange gale]

that's not what's in the game, irrelevant

[pulsar zinc]

I get that and I respect that too, I feel the same way cuz I see myself similarly and I’ve put in the world to learn the lore too.

I hope I can convince you later of some stuff at least but we’ll see.

[azure oriole]

Cut content isn't relevant to the final product's canon. And in the final product of TAG2, Davoth is a humanoid who required a mech to stand up to the Slayer, and gave up as soon as it stopped working. Then he died to a simple stab to the sternum.

[slow sigil]

if davoth wasn't weakened, then his base form is simply very weak as we can see directly in game.

Your attitude towards me and scaling is clownish and immature
because scaling itself is clownish and immature. You're literally disregarding the finer details of why/how some things work and then thinking that that singular thing somehow makes him instawin over many other things, despite the conclusion being all wrong. powerscaling is literally what kids do

[novel vector]

im trying so hard rn to not give an example using halo

[open tiger]

The point is that they went with the coolest option within their budget, and it's the lore that's the most accurate in contrast to the big screen with its limitations.

[open tiger]

Go ahead

[azure oriole]

Sure, I agree - but cut content isn't lore. And the lore text in TAG2, if anything, supports my argument. Davoth being able to turn into a dragon isn't just a scrapped boss mechanic - it is scrapped lore.

[slow sigil]

and it's the lore that's the most accurate in contrast to the big screen with its limitations.
what is more accurate: some text books that have unreliable narrators, or the things we literally can see and experience ingame?

I know my answer

[azure oriole]

(And, if I can be subjective for a moment, good. That sounds corny as fuck.)

[open tiger]

Again, not my point.
I'm talking about why Davoth LOOKED so weak instead of what the lore says.

[novel vector]

To give an example of cut content ultimately not mattering

In halo 2, it was planned for forerunners to be humans, but it was cut for time, in Halo 4, it is shown that they in fact, are not humans, which was a sort of retcon by 343 industries

[azure oriole]

I don't mean his literal appearance. I mean his depiction in TAG2 as someone who required technology to fight the Slayer.

[slow sigil]

also, davoth literally says "they took my power" if you want to go by anecdotes 😭

[azure oriole]

^^^

[novel vector]

i always forget how cool it is that satan is god in doom

[pulsar zinc]

A very poor and incorrect view of scaling, you are ignorant.

We do not or I do not just dismiss details of lore just for my own needs, some people do that’s the individual not the concept of scaling itself being flawed.

And no I am not, you just don’t agree with me, I do have evidence for my side I just need to gather it and I’ll mostly be showing it in dms to Mono cuz I can’t send everything here.

Calling it “what kids do” is such a petty and immature statement, I am done talking to you if you’re gonna be disrespectful and unreasonable like this, you’re a waste of time due to your stubbornness and biases and ignorance.

[shell fox]

Halo also has an example of beings so technologically advanced that they can bring forth life and warp reality, which is relevant to the discussion about Davoth.

[lyric lodge]

Turning into a dragon aint gon make the weak bih any stronger

[slow sigil]

yeah, the plotpoint of "What if lucifer's coup succeeded, and by replacing god he maid god a vengeful satan" is badass as fuck, and a shame they had to rush it for tag2

[novel vector]

precursors and forerunners is a really similar story to davoth and the makyrs

[open tiger]

"Some textbooks with unreliable narrators"
Hugo said that if you replace the father with Davoth regarding creation etc, Eri oa hiim is true.

"Things we see and experience on screen"
Things that the devs admitted they couldn't do justice to because of limitations and covid 19 shutting down hard on them?

[open tiger]

Again, missing my point

[shell fox]

Bro when the gravemind used the star roads to warp the fabric of space and wipe out all those forerunners was insane

[strange gale]

what's in the finished product is what's canon, what could've been is not canon

[azure oriole]

Hugo said that if you replace the father with Davoth regarding creation etc, Eri oa hiim is true.
Can you source this? I'm intrigued and haven't heard of this statement.

[lyric lodge]

My point is his appearance isnt changing ANYTHING, making your point irrelevant

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah Hugo did say this, I have the clip somewhere in my docs

[novel vector]

Oh god he did it. He asked for the source without sounding like an ass

[lyric lodge]

Of course, do take hugo's words with a grain of salt.

[slow sigil]

"hugo said" quite a few things, doesn't make all of them true. Plus you can kind of see it in the sentinel books too that they might be a bit overhyped

Things that the devs admitted they couldn't do justice
they where free to make up reasons for why they couldn't do some stuff, but yeah what is shown is more important unless directly retconned by later showings in the game.

[open tiger]

They took his power. Doesn't mean he hasn't or can't regain it, which we know happened thanks to the father.
Heck, when a maykr was resurrected in the battle of isoncast the enemies fled which wouldn't make sense if she didn't regain her power.

[azure oriole]

I sound like an ass when I ask for the source because I've asked for sources dozens of times in this server and almost never actually get one, especially from the people trying to tell me I'm wrong.

[pulsar zinc]

When I find it I’ll dm you

[slow sigil]

wdym "which we know happened thanks to the father"?

wouldn't make sense if she didn't regain her power
their power also likely wasn't stolen either

[open tiger]

All i see is someone using game mechanics and ignoring on screen limitations while dismissing lore confirmed by the devs to be accurate.

[novel vector]

I didn’t mean you sound like an ass in particular, almost everyone sounds like one when asking for a source, this was the first time I’ve seen someone ask for a source in a clearly friendly way

[lyric lodge]

Then dont see in this direction

[azure oriole]

Ah, okay. I misread your message then, apologies.

[novel vector]

Np

[shell fox]

The problem with doom lore is that it is vague, inconsistent, and differs too much from gameplay to be used.

[open tiger]

Sorry, but confirmed lore has precedence over game mechanics.

[ruby cliff]

Goddamn, everyone hates the mech suit so much.
😭

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah I do hate this attitude too

[azure oriole]

Davoth being able to turn into a dragon is not confirmed lore.

[lyric lodge]

Mech suit when its against water

[shell fox]

For example, we can use the halo books as feats because they are mostly consistent

[azure oriole]

I like it.

[novel vector]

People hate it????

All I’ve seen is hype

[lyric lodge]

Who wanna bet that suit gon explode and kill davoth if he sweats

[novel vector]

Halo is surprisingly consistent for having such a varied group of writers

[shell fox]

Fnaf ahh death 😭

[pulsar zinc]

Anyways now I’m gonna go eat, seeya

[slow sigil]

maybe you're a logical scaler then, but most scalers i interact with and see online are kids that equate a vague line as somehow concluding that someone can move above light speed 🤷‍♀️

[slow sigil]

yeah but also sorry but no, things we can literally experience carry 100 times more weight then some text that could be from an unreliable narrator

[novel vector]

343 changes writers every 3 minutes, bungie had their own, and there’s quite a few book writers

[shell fox]

Yeah, we have no reason to believe the Primordial's feats are false because there's nothing contradicting them.

[cyan turret]

I've mastered the dark lord fight, so now I've gotta master the samur makyr fight

[azure oriole]

My opinion is that both gameplay and lore are relevant to the overall Doom narrative and completely disregarding gameplay is a dishonest way to interpret the story, and is fundamentally at odds with the narrative structure of what makes a videogame a videogame.

[cyan turret]

Also it's funny how satan gets beaten by an angry man

[lyric lodge]

What are the times hugo's words contradicts lore in eternal? Has this happened? Genuinely curious.

[novel vector]

I mean the angry man had the power of satan

[shell fox]

Davoth, on the other hand, got killed by a

checks notes

Stab to the sternum.

[open tiger]

At this point it's invincible ignorance.
The developers, the father, and davith confirmed it. It's reliable. Period.
You are using game mechanics flat out said to be inaccurate to the actual scale of things.

[slow sigil]

honestly, i'd die from that too

[lyric lodge]

We'd all die from that

[azure oriole]

Hugo said that the Whiplash was the first female demon in Doom, which is objectively incorrect and contradicts past games multiple times.

[shadow nova]

should have been a hammer to the head

[cyan turret]

The dark lord is a weak baby, just has an edgy name

[lyric lodge]

Hm, yeah thats true. Are there more lore intensive examples?

[cyan turret]

BRUTALITY

[slow sigil]

You are using game mechanics flat out said to be inaccurate to the actual scale of things
yes, i am using the things that actually happen within the game's world to get an accurate feel of things, i don't see how that is controversial

[shell fox]

Me too but nobody is going around saying I can breathe universes into existence

[lyric lodge]

Make sure his corpse has stars floating around his head

[azure oriole]

Let me look around for some of his statements.

[open tiger]

Never said it was, and for the third time, that was never my point.

[lyric lodge]

RNG fest baby

[novel vector]

live MOTHER demon reaction:

[slow sigil]

also, where did davoth himself confirm it?

the father mostly did pre tag2, where that part of the story literally wasn't lied out yet so bleh

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah I try to be logical, fair, accurate and etc. I don’t like wank or downplay.

Dork assume every scaler is shit just cuz you run into shit scalers, sadly most people are not very good.

Now I think you might still disagree with me and think me using lore to argue Doomslayer is above light speed is bad but I’d at least have multiple sources for it, and I have reasoning for it.

The fact you think gameplay is accurate and is above lore is an issue so you likely wouldn’t be agreeable to me if we talked about it so idk if we will cuz it would be frustrating for both sides especially with how you already acted to me.

[novel vector]

i mean tag lore was probably mostly figured out during doom eternal

[shell fox]

Pretty sure the summoner is a female too

[lyric lodge]

she lowkey

[open tiger]

Told the father to admit the truth, father confirmed it.

[azure oriole]

Evidence suggests the Davoth/Father twist in TAG2 was figured out before Eternal's release.

[slow sigil]

The fact you think gameplay is accurate and is above lore is an issue
well you know what they say, streetsmarts above booksmarts. Especially if the books are proven to be potentionally not 100% accurate

[slow sigil]

that... he was overthrown?

[open tiger]

That Davoth was the creator.

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah it’s one of my main issues with the mentality here tbh but unless you post stuff they won’t budge ofc

[hidden sail]

The doom eternal Good game

[lyric lodge]

How does that relate again?

[slow sigil]

ok... and?

[novel vector]

i mean i probably cant say this whole thing properly without it getting deleted or something, but the vagary from doom 3.... she kinda has.... you know....

[lyric lodge]

Alrighttt buddy

[novel vector]

i dont think many men have those

[open tiger]

Scroll and read.

[slow sigil]

noone argues that he isn't the creater, just that... you know. The literal next line right after: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/890909009526267935/1253377330194157730/image.png?ex=6675a21a&is=6674509a&hm=aba3a77ff70572306ba7ac5b933df9d8bb13e1f6b42b19ea9864a2d84d4338a8&

[strange gale]

Now I think you might still disagree with me and think me using lore to argue Doomslayer is above light speed is bad but I’d at least have multiple sources for it, and I have reasoning for it.

The fact you think gameplay is accurate and is above lore is an issue so you likely wouldn’t be agreeable to me

considering the medium we're talking about here, a video game, this is dogshit writing if it's true

[azure oriole]

The Vagaries are pregnant and hold Mancubus fetuses in their transparent wombs, yes.

[lyric lodge]

Oh theyre mancubus mothers?

Oh fuck them all

[azure oriole]

Which is why it's a good thing it's not true. The Slayer is not "above light speed." That's complete bullshit.

This line of thinking is contradictory to how videogames work.

[novel vector]

i had no idea the slayer broke the law of casuality!!

[lyric lodge]

The discussion on the slayer's speed and whether or not its above light speed is plain stupid on its own honestly

[open tiger]

Have you played tag 2?

[novel vector]

and was massless!!

[lyric lodge]

Did he? I dont know, howd he get the screenshot?

[pulsar zinc]

That’s a bit of a silly reply but I found it funny lol

Some of the lore not being 100% accurate potential does not mean you should just dismiss stuff just cuz you can’t see it especially when most things are in the past so ofc you can’t see it duh

Anyways thanks for being more chill.

[slow sigil]

according to my texts, kim jong un is the literal god-creator of humanity
idk why irl he doesn't just whipe away america though, it must be IRL who is wrong

[regal walrus]

💀

[slow sigil]

genuinely how i see this "gameplay doesn't matter as much as maybe wrong text"

[open tiger]

You do realise that you can get a ss that's not yours?

[lyric lodge]

And? You can also get a ss thats yours

[slow sigil]

yeah, and. That's where i started to realise that codex entries aren't 100% reliable because they have unreliable narrators

[open tiger]

Which in the end doesn't give a factual answer to my question.

[lyric lodge]

But also what was your question? How does asking if someone played tag2 relate to any of this

[open tiger]

What was the father's first sentence to the slayer in the holt level?

[open tiger]

Smh.

[young mango]

never played TAG2 ever in ever sorry never heard of it

[novel vector]

wasnt it something like the demons move freely through my realm, now that the seal has been broken by the icons awakening

[lyric lodge]

so real, like what even is that wdym i set a WR?

[slow sigil]

technically "the demons now move freely though this world"

[open tiger]

And Hugo confirmed that the only inaccuracy is the father Davoth swap
How many times will you repeat this and close your ears?

[open tiger]

Point.

[pulsar zinc]

No it’s just the limitations of gameplay to have gameplay balance and make it a fun challenging game there are concessions needed to be made.

This isn’t a new thing that’s only for doom.

GoW has this issue with their dev Cory talks about in great detail.

We can’t show someone running constantly at light speed cuz we wouldn’t see shit, we can’t have the main character just one shot all the demons cuz it would be boring, and etc.

[open tiger]

I'll send the clip

[pulsar zinc]

You have to show them the clip as proof duh

I’m gonna find it on my own time

[novel vector]

really?

huh, had no idea, that kinda makes me like the codex less now

[strange gale]

the story conveyed by the events of the game and the story conveyed by its lore are so at odds with each other that one shouldn't be taken into consideration at all when discussing the other

[slow sigil]

because i don't care what hugo says above what the lore says, and above what the game says

if he didn't want it in the game, he shouldn't have released it with that in the game. Don't have the resources to accurately depict it? depict something else untill you do have the resources, or don't depict it

[open tiger]

Yeah.
I'm pretty sure I had a clip but yt is deleting em again.

[novel vector]

because they're not supposed to be written by omnipotent beings, they're written by random sentinels, humans, makyrs, vega, etc

[strange gale]

lore slayer and game slayer are not the same character, and that's baaad writing

[open tiger]

Nah man at this point your in fantasy land denial.
Wake up to reality is literally a valid thing to say rn lol

[novel vector]

what

i am geniunely confused by that sentence

[lyric lodge]

I am genuinely confused whats even the topic atp

[novel vector]

when was it established they're not the same guy

[slow sigil]

because of what reason? that i think that what we actually experience is more important then what some people, that might be wrong, say? Especially if i SEE the contrary???

[pulsar zinc]

That’s a very stubborn and unreasonable mindset

If they can’t show it accurately due to resources or cuz it would break the basic gameplay balance then it is just a limitation of the gameplay it doesn’t invalid the lore.

[young mango]

Doom slayer is so sigma and is god of everything and solos every verse 😍 he was using 0.0001% of his power the entire story

[young mango]

Me neither I’m just replying to shit

[azure oriole]

Hi. Here's another one that isn't necessarily a lie, but an answer that is definitely not taking into account written lore. When asked by Tyler McVicker why Samuel Hayden was cool with killing VEGA (the Father) in 2016, Hugo explains that Hayden's interests have become self-serving and that "Samuel's not following orders anymore."
This is directly at odds with the story of TAG1, where Hayden is desperate to reawake the Father and serve him again. On top of this, the lore provided for Life Spheres indicates that killing VEGA would not have killed the Father; his Life Sphere would still have been intact. VEGA is not the entire Father, only a consciousness. Hugo did not acknowledge this.

[novel vector]

some of its davoth, some of its powerscaling, some of its the reliability of sources in game and out

[open tiger]

Do i have to repeat that what you experience is factually inaccurate to the true events because of real life limitations?

[lyric lodge]

Dayum man you actually went in on concrete information

[slow sigil]

i think you do, because the game is still more accurate then the not game

[strange gale]

lore events and game events effectively comprise two disconnected stories because of how out of whack the power scaling is here

[lyric lodge]

Appreciate it bro and ngl this does kinda go against DGA's statements on hugo's words

[open tiger]

right. The lore given In the GAME to explain what they are unable to show isnt accurate. Gotcha.

[novel vector]

i hope this doesnt make anyone hate hugo or anything for not being 100% correct all the time

[lyric lodge]

The lore said Davoth could turn into a dragon? Or is that not the topic anymore i swear it was a few minutes ago

[open tiger]

https://youtu.be/7M-Ow42rRwQ?si=t0GzfXxRygXoQ1g4&t=1618

[lyric lodge]

I love hugo, hes a great ball of energy. Just wish he was more consistent with his words on the doom lore

[pulsar zinc]

Please tell me how could we show he is above light speed in gameplay without being a blur to us or breaking the game? We can’t do it consistently that’s the limitation of gameplay so it being in lore and not gameplay does not mean the gameplay invalidates it.

Take this and apply it everything else and you see the issue we have is not so simple.

[slow sigil]

to explain what they are unable to show
Well it depends. If they can't show it because we are not there it's fair. If we however see the contrary, then chances are it's much more likely that whoever wrote that codex entry was wrong because they where only sentinel/human/low tiered makyr/etc

[azure oriole]

Oh I absolutely don't. And I don't think Hugo has to be 100% correct all the time. The man is only human and I don't think it would be realistic to expect him to have all of this eidetically memorized.
I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I don't think he's like, say, me. I'm memorizing already-released lore and put simply I'm a freak and obsessed over fixating on it. Hugo has, like, an actual busy life and there is likely a lot of ideas he had that didn't make its way into the game.

[pulsar zinc]

Oh you made your own video?

Idk how good it is so I’ll check it out but I suggest checking out my former friend’s video, his name is Gewsbumpz Dude

[slow sigil]

Please tell me how could we show he is above light speed in gameplay without being a blur to us or breaking the game?
by making a game that actually simulates such mechanics? If it was accurate, you can easily design the game around it. Time dilation, simply faster enemies, etc

[shell fox]

Simple. Make us fight an enemy who is supposed to be lightspeed, like acknowledged as lightspeed, then just have the game play normally.

[azure oriole]

Yeah, see, here's the thing: They don't have to show he's "above light speed" in gameplay because he is not "above light speed."

That is not how the Slayer works, it's not how the Divinity Machine works either. Nothing in the Codex says this.

[novel vector]

not trying to be rude with this, im geniunely confused by how that relates to the reliability of narrators in the codex

[open tiger]

How self centered are you/ The world doesnt revolve around you and the reasons they cant show it is because of reasons besides your esteemed viewership

[shell fox]

God of War has a fight against a character who is lightspeed and Kratos keeps up, it is not that hard.

[slow sigil]

what's it trying to say that doesn't support my point or supports neither point

[strange gale]

in other words, the lore is poorly written because it doesn't consider the medium it's contained within

[pulsar zinc]

Now you are not being open minded and just missed the point even if you didn’t believe in this specifically

[lyric lodge]

Ah Baldur i fucking hate you baldur

[open tiger]

the father explaining he will regain power with a physical form and lost the power without it

[slow sigil]

the world doesn't revolve around me no. However, in doom the world we see definitely revolves around doomguy sinds it's almost alwayts in first person yeah

[open tiger]

at this point its plain invincible ignorance on your side

[pulsar zinc]

Above light speed* but ofc it can’t be shown so easily as Cory the dev says in interview

[slow sigil]

because he had power yeah. Davoth did not anymore

[open tiger]

ive tried to be polite but are you legit slow?

[azure oriole]

I don't have to be "open minded" to this conclusion. The burden of proof is on you when it comes to making claims like this. A statement that cannot be supported by proof can be just as easily disregarded.

[slow sigil]

are you?

[novel vector]

it would be a really bad idea if they made doomguy be at lightspeed

[open tiger]

ive used some of his material for help he is quite thorough

[slow sigil]

literally nothing what vega said supports that davoth would get his stolen power back upon revival

[lyric lodge]

Doom lore discussion been on demon time ever since a new lore guy like carnifex joined the server

[shell fox]

Literally just make a demon boss who is really fast, have him stated as lightspeed in the lore, and that's it bro!

Doom 3 literally has a speedster demon boss

[pulsar zinc]

He fights beings of this speed and higher but is mostly explained in lore so that’s why it isn’t very clear to most.

[azure oriole]

Doomguy being "above light speed" would break every single plot point relating to his existence and involvement in the plot. Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal's narratives fundamentally do not fucking work with a protagonist who can casually run beyond the speed of light.

[open tiger]

"i believe I shall regain my full faculties with my physical form" ,

[novel vector]

i mean, that would be breaking the laws of physics, to be at light speed, you have to be massless

[open tiger]

ehh physics was re-written in 2016 lol

[slow sigil]

oh i didn't even notice the words of "i believe", which may mean that he isn't even sure
But again, vegafather actually has his power.... somewhere. Davoth's is stolen and he doesn't have it, because... he doesn't have it

[novel vector]

doomguy just has an ftl engine somewhere in his armor

[shell fox]

If Doom 3 RoE can have a demon who is really fast as a boss (though not lightspeed), then so can Eternal

[lyric lodge]

No need for bfg if you can just take demons out before i even blink

[shell fox]

Yet Eternal has nothing to show us the Slayer is lightspeed lmao

[slow sigil]

also, note again how tag2s entire plotpoint is rushed and former statements may not be accurate. "He is you, in their world" is the most obvious one

[lyric lodge]

Nah bro trust me the Slayer told me he goes at lightspeed in one of my dreams

[slow sigil]

i belief this 100% more then the gameplay itself

[novel vector]

no slayer goes lightspeed because hes perfect and my hero and he does everything :)))))

[azure oriole]

Yeah why the fuck does he even need the Fortress's teleportation if he can just run beyond the speed of light where he needs to go? Why go through the effort of blowing up the reactor to destroy the Super Gore Nest if he can just run at light speed and crater the entire area? "The only way you can get to Sentinel Prime is through a Hebeth slipgate-" Not if I can just run over there from Exultia at the speed of light, right?

[strange gale]

air friction would melt the praetor suit and whatever weapon he's holding before he could get anywhere close to lightspeed lmfao

[open tiger]

The god of the omniscient race, omnipresent through creation and literally the most accurate source of info in the entire game, backed up by the codex. and need i mention that primevals loose the power when they loose their physical form?

[slow sigil]

not like that matters if he can

[young mango]

technically with glitches you can go 0.1% the speed of light 🤓

[strange gale]

i mean yeah at lightspeed it'd make sense to just run through everything

[open tiger]

https://youtu.be/isFMDzoObdg?si=Y8NM2M8A2Fl99ZeW&t=280

[novel vector]

no he just runs in space

[azure oriole]

If the Slayer can run at light speed, why did he stand there while Olivia Pierce fled from him, separated only by a pane of glass? Why didn't he just fucking phase-shift through it and cave her skull in?

[slow sigil]

literally the most accurate source of info in the entire game
*apart from the actual game

[lyric lodge]

Exactly bro characters are only lightspeed if theyre stated to be in game

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah I wasn’t trying to convince if he was light speed or not there, you missed the point entirely cuz of your stance just brushing off as it’s not true and you focused on that part.

I’ll post stuff in your dms, I didn’t the other days cuz I was visiting my dad and I just got back home today.

[lyric lodge]

Not midnight bro

[shell fox]

Also, when we defeat this boss, its powers get absorbed into the Artifact, and when the player uses it we can clearly speedblitz the demons, the Slayer cannot do this.

[novel vector]

just telefrag her, lets quake this mf up

[pulsar zinc]

I’ll post Gews’ video on Davoth being at full power cuz he explains it too.

https://youtu.be/QgzNtleSfgY?si=u1ECSZ6780ih2FXX

[lyric lodge]

He wanted the game to have a longer runtime duh

[azure oriole]

No wonder the Slayer's so strong. He can just on-demand telefrag anyone he wants!

[lyric lodge]

The slayer could probably noclip through walls at light speed

[slow sigil]

also like... vegafather isn't omniscient and omnipresent. Both of those are kinda paradoxical in itself. He also isn't "the most accurate" because of a literal history of lying (to lesser races, and the origin of the universe to his own race).

and need i mention that primevals loose the power when they loose their physical form?
You do! because primevals aren't actually a thing ingame

[pulsar zinc]

Bruh

[shell fox]

If the Slayer was lightspeed, Doom Eternal would play like Resurrection of Evil does when the artifact is in use (and the RoE Marine is not even 0.01% of the speed if light)

[pulsar zinc]

Davoth is Primeval wtf are you on

[lyric lodge]

Guys...what if...the Slayer going at lightspeed is proven by speedrunners 😱😱😱

[slow sigil]

/shrug yeah... and it kinda means nothing

[novel vector]

You bring violence and wa- gibbed

[open tiger]

ok ur legit high rn

[pulsar zinc]

You clearly didn’t read the lore then

[slow sigil]

primevals have like, 2-3 different meanings depending on hugo's mood

[strange gale]

doom 2016 would've ended after the foundry (3rd level)

[slow sigil]

and you can make them on demand anyways so the only really relevant part, "only a primeval can kill* another primeval" is a bit mood innit

[shell fox]

Y'all, if the Slayer is lightspeed, does this mean the Resurrection of Evil Marine is faster than light? 😱

[slow sigil]

🤓 also, davoth technically can not be FULL power because doomguy has a piece of his power in him

[open tiger]

no one made the slayer lmao hugo already explained that.

[novel vector]

yeah thats probably the main reason why hugo is not 100% reliable

doom guy cannot be immortal, or theres just no stakes

[lyric lodge]

Technically his mom made him

[novel vector]

no doom guy just phased in existence to slap some random uac guy

[pulsar zinc]

This is why I didn’t try to go into the scaling aspect yet cuz I knew that people would act this way and find it ridiculous if I didn’t word it right and give evidence, I kinda wished you didn’t just say it without posting stuff.

[lyric lodge]

Using hugo as a source is never really the most efficient imo even if it can be true rarely

[slow sigil]

ok so that part of "only a primeval can kill another primeval" then doesn't apply ig

[strange gale]

lightspeed within doom (the story) invalidates the existence of doom (the games)

[novel vector]

i also find that as a really bad take from hugo, because why does he have davoths face then, it cant have been a coincidence that this guy just happened to become the slayer, and have davoths face

[lyric lodge]

If thats just a piece im intrigued to see all of his power

[slow sigil]

well look no further then ingame! he can summon weak demons and teleport
i guess that explains why doomguy only gets mildly superhuman strength and biological immortality from davoth's piece of power

[lyric lodge]

Oh yeah that does make sense

[azure oriole]

Okay, yeah, I'm watching this and it's a flawed argument. The person in question spends most of his time debunking the "Father absorbed Davoth's power" claim rather than explaining why Davoth himself is at full power in TAG2. That claim was indeed bullshit but it does not prove the counter-claim.
The claim that TAG2 saying all of Creation is at risk because of Davoth means that Davoth is at full power is a reach. All of Creation is at risk because Hell's army is bolstered by their leader having come back, and Hell now having the power to reach anywhere in the universe if the Slayer doesn't stop them. Nowhere is it stated that Davoth would have the Godly power to just wipe existence away on his own.

[novel vector]

im of the opinion that doomguy claimed davoths power after killing him, its gotta go somewhere, so that would be kinda awesome to have doomguy become god, they're probably not gonna do it to that extent

[lyric lodge]

That sounds more like half than a piece tho tbh

[lyric lodge]

Bros asleep what he gone do as god 😭🙏

[slow sigil]

Nowhere is it stated that Davoth would have the Godly power to just wipe existence away on his own
and if he did like.... why didn't he just

[novel vector]

he just has a random alarm that he accidentally set for eternity

[azure oriole]

Davoth evidently is not at full power in TAG2 because every single one of his actions is in contradiction to this claim. He requires an army to stand up against Doomguy, he requires a mech to fight him, he gives up as soon as the mech starts breaking, and he dies to the Slayer stabbing him in the sternum. On top of this, even when he had his power he lost to his own machine in a fight.

[open tiger]

primevals look alike. hugo already answered that

[novel vector]

As all things have been made by my hand, so shall they be unmade, starting with you! (screen goes white) (credits)

[lyric lodge]

I feel like this downplays every point of davoth "being at full power". Its not only stated multiple times he lost his touch, if he really was at full power and really created the universe why not just make doomguy go poof?

[slow sigil]

then why did doomguy look like that looong before he ever was a primeval?

[azure oriole]

If one claims that Davoth was a God capable of "breathing realms into existence," this means he would thus be capable of reversing it. Davoth thus should've had the opportunity to do this several times over during the events of TAG2, and there is no logical reason why he would've been able to lose to the Father in this case.

[novel vector]

really? wasnt he not a primeval untill the divinity machine?

[open tiger]

because doomguy is his equal

[novel vector]

all that really changes is that his hair got darker

[open tiger]

Ok. idk why i have to keep repeating myself, but hugo already said that the slayer was born a primeval, and davoths essence "awakened his powers"

[lyric lodge]

Where was this stated again? And even if so, wouldnt it most likely be in terms of strength? If they were 'equal' it just turns into a duel of who poofs who first

[open tiger]

"only a primeval or something stronger could kill another primeval" , so its a requirement of raw intrinsic power

[novel vector]

Oh yeah i remember that now, in trav guys interview he said something about davoth just revealing what was already there

[slow sigil]

That's genuinely bullshit though, doomguy was a regular marine within the first few games. That's one of the main things of the power fantasy in the games even

Hugo also imo simply does not have the authority to say, so many years after the launch of the OG games, that doomguy was an immortal god throughout that time

[open tiger]

https://youtu.be/tZ1DFE8awO8?si=IXtsdA1I8SPgCXFV&t=761 The mayr history is all true except davoth and father were swapped. If anyone argues against this again go touch grass.

[shell fox]

Because Davoth a luh 𝓕𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓴𝔂 and he went all Zeus mode with Doomguy's great great great great great x1000000 grandma

[lyric lodge]

Is this potentially gow lore

[pulsar zinc]

This is wrong and idk how you twisted it in such a way, I’m gonna have to talk about this more later but I am disappointed that you misunderstood this badly.

How did you miss the part about him needing his physical form to be complete? Primeval need their body to be at their full power.

Davoth himself was the threat to all of creation it didn’t say the demons, it is said he will destroy it all with his own hands which is confirmed by the father, he made it all so ofc he has the power to end it.

[open tiger]

Thats not what he said for fks sake. he was functionally mortal ....as a primeval he wasnt awakened

[pulsar zinc]

Thx for finding it

[lyric lodge]

Yeah. But this prove davoth is at full power how?

[novel vector]

its not supposed to???? hes replying to something else

[azure oriole]

Primevals need their body to be at full power.
This does not mean having your body innately gives you full power. Those are two different statements. It is literally stated that part of Davoth was taken from him during the process that made him a Life Sphere. Thus returning to his body would only give him the power he has after this event.

[slow sigil]

he was still a completely regular marine though. Again, hugo imo simply does not have the authority to claim he was a "god all along!!!" throughout those games

[open tiger]

THANK YOU

[azure oriole]

he made it all so ofc he has the power to end it.
Explain to me why he didn't do this the minute he was resurrected.

[young mango]

yeah like correlation not causation or whatever it’s called

[open tiger]

he does.

[slow sigil]

because obv they didn't have the resources to have the screen go to white after buying tag2

[azure oriole]

Lmao

[strange gale]

go touch grass

look who's talking

[lyric lodge]

He said "because doomguy is his equal" to my message on davoth being at full power.

[open tiger]

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxn6LKQWUxIOOQr1Gw8Vemz42kGnC8eQNt?si=L7q2kNKd0OdmJqsq Hell , which can consume all of creation, is an ABSOLUTE extension of davoth. And if youve watched my cosmology vid you know how crazy the cosmology is

[novel vector]

I already made that joke @slow sigil!!!

[young mango]

why didn’t doomguy chainsaw zip all the way to davoth and skip the entirety of TAG2, is he stupid?

[lyric lodge]

Shouldve added a watermark

[open tiger]

and who r you?

[shell fox]

Lowk fair honestly 😭

[young mango]

glask

[open tiger]

no game if he did that

[azure oriole]

The Father had saved an element of the Dark Lord before he betrayed him and went into hiding, for he was reluctant to destroy all parts of his creator. This piece of the Dark Lord remained sealed within the coffins of Urdak.
Outright confirmation that part of the Dark Lord, particularly a part that represented his power, was not with his Life Sphere. Thus resurrecting him from his Life Sphere did not "bring him back to full power."

[lyric lodge]

Idk bro, he might not have the smarts to use his light speed

[novel vector]

you're tammie

[strange gale]

if he can move at lightspeed, why game exist?

[novel vector]

read

[lyric lodge]

because money

[young mango]

even better headcanon to have, doomguy canonically has above light speed but he’s too stupid to use it because he keeps running into walls

[open tiger]

ok....almost full power.

[lyric lodge]

This is peak lore

[novel vector]

i think its canon that doomguy doesnt read the lore

[lyric lodge]

He just kills weird red thing and calls it a day

[novel vector]

because he looks suprised when he finds out davoth is the true father

[slow sigil]

guysguys i have a great idea
what if... we simply detached the game in 2. We have "lore accurate" doom which will be just text, no actual gameplay at all. And "doom accurate" which will be the game's lore accurate to it's gameplay

[lyric lodge]

Doomguy doesnt read books confirmed

[novel vector]

there also is that achievement thats titled something like too bad i cant read

[azure oriole]

He was weakened enough that he needed a Warhammer mech to stand a chance against the Slayer lol. And then gave up as soon as it started to break.

[strange gale]

me glask

[shell fox]

The protagonist of resurrection of evil is the strongest doom character fr and i will stand by this

[buoyant hearth]

“doomguy isthe most powerful entity in the universe and fak u if you think otherwise especially u kevin its because i said so” - SL4Y3RLoreFAN2010

[open tiger]

You guys need to understand that however stupid the lore might sound or be, it doesnt make it wrong

[lyric lodge]

Not kevin bro 😭

[slow sigil]

but the actual lore we see is wrong? lol

[open tiger]

Again, they showed what they could with their limitations, and wrote what they couldnt in the lore.

[novel vector]

i always forget that mods can actually be good

[lyric lodge]

Davoth when he realises he made his machine out of fucking wood and that its not gonna hold up

[open tiger]

what we see isnt lore lol go learn the definition.

[strange gale]

lil bro got that ruckus mech

[lyric lodge]

😭

[slow sigil]

i agree, it's much more accurate then the lore

[novel vector]

should've just pulled a titanfall and nuke ejected

[shell fox]

The random Doom 3 RoE Marine resembles "lOrE AcCuRaTe" Slayer more than the Slayer LOL

[azure oriole]

This does not change what I am saying. This is what was in the final product. You are arguing against the innate game itself based on your own subjective interpretation of lore text. The lore text does not contradict the statement that Davoth was weakened enough that he needed a mech to fight the Slayer. The mere choice to include the mech is, itself, a creative decision that was important enough that they strived to keep it in the final product.

[young mango]

for someone who was capable of building beings stronger than him I think it’s funny that he lost to the slayer

[novel vector]

should have just created another slayer

[slow sigil]

having your power get stolen does that to a MF

[lyric lodge]

In his defense bro his shit got robbed by doomguy

[young mango]

I forgor

[shell fox]

Davoth got his bag stolen by the father lmao 😭 fraudwatch

[novel vector]

"you feel now.... you are prepared.... for this?" - unprepared guy

[lyric lodge]

This just turned into a davoth shitshow bro 😭🙏

[buoyant hearth]

bro got into his mech

[pulsar zinc]

It does cuz the piece of davoth was not from his sphere it was from his corpse, whatever leftover strength his body had as it is still just as durable and strong.

The issue is davoth continued to grow in power as he is connected to Hell which is an extension of his power, Hell absorbed universes and grew in power.

Not to mention he ate the life spheres of other Gods before he was sealed so he was not at his base power anyways.

Also what is part of infinity? Infinity.

He has the power to make infinite universes, universes which are infinite in size, he made Urdak/The Holt a higher dimensional realm, he made Jekkad/Hell which is a higher dimensional realm beyond the multiverse and it’s infinite in size, hell essence and argent energy are said to give infinite power, it’s higher dimensional energy, and etc.

Here’s his videos on scaling Doomguy, the first ones are old but they are straight to the point, the new ones are a bit more updated and he goes over his growth over the games.

https://youtu.be/wrsY2-tFVvs?si=X0mnToi6mxwxbyKY

https://youtu.be/O92M3r9SASc?si=X0pv0ZxRFgMtCzU4

https://youtu.be/-yukvMApGcM?si=7Zdo3vlHEZtt_2Lw

https://youtu.be/8CWIz82w36Y?si=pTgzqEKGCVemzNhU

https://youtu.be/EjFELEkAdlc?si=4LgwetSeceWFDa3w

[slow sigil]

are you guys ready yet for my theory of exactly what davoth's "piece of power" is

[shell fox]

Imagine losing against lucifer when lucifer is always supposed to lose davoth is such a fraud bro 😭

[lyric lodge]

Bro got his shit rocked in that mech suit like he was an evangelion character

[novel vector]

its a kidney stone

[open tiger]

they loose their power when they loose their physical form

[lyric lodge]

part of his dumb dumb brain

[azure oriole]

It does cuz the piece of davoth was not from his sphere it was from his corpse, whatever leftover strength his body had as it is still just as durable and strong.
Objectively incorrect. It is outright stated that this piece was taken before the final act of the betrayal.
He made Jekkad/Hell
Not confirmed by the games, this is only a theory.

[novel vector]

thats why he died so easily... he wasnt feeling well from that

[strange gale]

then why didn't he pull a limitless technique 🌝

[lyric lodge]

Maybe he had to pee the entire fight

[novel vector]

thats why the mech suit has yellow eyes

[open tiger]

Im am repeating exactly what the lore and hugo martin say. Its quite telling that this is all i need to do to keep adressing your points.

[slow sigil]

because, again, the game didn't have the budget to make the screen white

[lyric lodge]

White's an expensive colour

[open tiger]

https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Codex/Characters_and_Locations#The_Holt

[azure oriole]

No, you are not lol, you are repeating your own interpretation of what the lore is saying and then disregarding the actual game. The fact that you have to disregard the actual game itself and the plot it's depicting to serve your point is what is telling.

[lyric lodge]

I aint got none on these lore dudes man i aint even got all the lore books yet

[novel vector]

dyno calm down

[lyric lodge]

Dyno stopping the debate my hero

[azure oriole]

There's a Wiki for DOOM?

Cool

[novel vector]

multiple

[buoyant hearth]

It’s dogshit

fandom

[novel vector]

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Entryway use this one

[lyric lodge]

Even reddit's a better source atp

[open tiger]

please explain exactly what is my interpretation? I am disregarding what the devs have stated isnt accurate to the true state and instead going by the lore given in the very same game

[shell fox]

I could highkey solo the doom cosmology just give me a few days to prepare

[lyric lodge]

I'd just turn off the console or pc

[azure oriole]

All of these points being made are fundamentally broken the minute you actually pay attention to the events of the game itself and step outside of solely lore text. I am reconciling all of the narrative info being given. You are paying attention to a fraction of the game, cherrypicking in-game info, and completely disregarding what the actual game blatantly shows you and outright has you experience.

[shell fox]

Yeah doomwiki.org is better

[pulsar zinc]

What??? Bruh it is confirmed he made Jekkad cuz the father didn’t, the lore of the father making it and Urdak is as a lie it was davoth like the game tells you it was davoth who’s the creator and Hugo confirms this, the video that talks about it was posted earlier.

[azure oriole]

The Star Wars Fandom is probably way worse... I guess.

[slow sigil]

ACCURACY INDEX:
small dev accuracy notes (oh yeah that lil line there shouldn't have said X, lemme patch that rq) > the literal, actual game > the ingame lore > big pieces of lore the devs just thought of but didn't include because.... idk > Planned content that wasn't included for whatever reason, like concept art books

[azure oriole]

I didn't say the Father made Jekkad. I'm saying it is not confirmed that Davoth did. Please show me where it says Davoth created Jekkad.

[pulsar zinc]

No this is your interpretation of what we are doing, this is not what we are doing and I don’t appreciate this misrepresentation of us.

[open tiger]

You are ignoring the confirmed to be accurate lore and taking the confirmed to be inaccurate cinematic gameplay for your headcanon.

[buoyant hearth]

Who is us

[shell fox]

Doomguy when he uses guns instead of just one punching the beings he hates with all his heart out of existence (he's having fun ig)

[slow sigil]

your headcanon
the headcanon of... playing the game?

[novel vector]

https://youtu.be/p0CEOkoSsgA

[azure oriole]

I am not ignoring shit. I am reconciling it with the actual game itself. The gameplay being inaccurate in some regards does not magically mean that all of the cutscenes are completely unreliable.

Davoth requiring a mech is not "gameplay." He has the fucking mech in cutscenes.

[young mango]

this is going on crazy long, if m0no tells me I’m wrong about the lore I will just fold instantly

[shell fox]

To be fair the mech hard asl i would wear that shit to a funeral

[slow sigil]

guys guys again what if we just reconciled. Lets just split this argument in two endings: One that cares more about their superhero story and whatever they hear, and the people that actually care about the game itself

[azure oriole]

This is what I mean by subjective interpretation. I already know the answer to this because I checked. The codex never says Davoth created Jekkad. What it says is that Davoth was the leader of Jekkad, and Hugo says that Hell ended up being an extension of Davoth.
This does not equal a confirmation that Davoth created Jekkad. You are assuming this because it is your interpretation of the text. What it can also mean is that Jekkad existed before Davoth, and that when Jekkad was twisted into Hell it was inexorably tied into Davoth's being.

[pulsar zinc]

Hugo confirms it was Davoth not the father who made it cuz the lore is reversed.

[slow sigil]

Also guys don't forget that a potentional megagod can be around the corner lol

[open tiger]

Phrase it however you want but it doesnt change the fact that your headcanon relies on completely ignoring the lore, ignoring the father and hugo's statements, and just going off pure gameplay. Pardon my French, but y'all need to actually use your brains and learn that gameplay has real-life limitations while lore doesn't, which is why they use the lore for what can't be reconciled with gameplay.

[open tiger]

it created the void

[strange gale]

how about this: the lore is a fantasy book that has nothing to do with the games' events because of how much of a disparity there is, and vice versa

[azure oriole]

There is such a middle ground between these things lmao

[azure oriole]

This argument of the cutscenes being unreliable - how far does this go? How far do you want to argue this? Are all the cutscenes completely non-canon? Did Davoth canonically never use a mech and I'm supposed to substitute a dragon or a mass of angelic eyeballs whenever I watch his cutscenes? The mech is not there because of "limitations." He was always going to use it. It's there because they decided it to be there.

[novel vector]

how about this, modern doom was a dream while doomguy was in the tomb before 2016

[azure oriole]

So, so what? Are all the cutscenes just not canon?

[shell fox]

Exactly, there's nothing stopping id from making doomguy visibly superpowered lmao

[azure oriole]

Or are they only non-canon when it is convenient for whatever point you're trying to make?

[pulsar zinc]

You do know that energy sword & shield, their weapons and armor are all made using higher dimensional energy aka argent energy, right? No maybe then check the videos and blogs I post which give evidence.

[strange gale]

and from this it would follow that lore should not be taken into account when discussing the games' events, and vice versa

[slow sigil]

😭 your headcanon literally relies on ignoring the GAME

[azure oriole]

I am aware of this and it does not change my point lol. Doomguy uses the same kind of weapon during the battle.

[novel vector]

what does it being argent energy have to do with anything?

[lucid geyser]

Will #the-dark-ages seriously not have a dash mechanic? It's more like moving a tank through a maze?

[azure oriole]

Anyone can wield an Argent weapon. The Sentinels do it all the time. If anything you're just telling me that Davoth conveniently only used it when he had giant robot hands to help him.

[pulsar zinc]

Exactly

I posted a blog that went over this but no one bothers to read shit I post ig

[strange gale]

this entire conversation is fundamentally flawed because of id's shitty writing

[open tiger]

never said its completely non canon. This is like the fifth strawman in under an hour here. Do I have to keep repeating they used a mech because of real life limitations, and that it would upscale the mech not downscale davoth? Did we just forget primevals can enhance things to their power level?

[buoyant hearth]

No one knows really, we’ll have to wait until this is confirmed or more gameplay pops out

[young mango]

This conversation is such a slog it’s been going on for hours, does anybody wanna talk about speedrunning or anything more interesting than walking in circles?

[novel vector]

thats more of a slipppery slope than a strawman

to be irrelevant

[wanton atlas]

Most likely. They’re taking the philosophy from classic Doom where “every projectile mattered.”
However, we do see a shield bash/dash in the trailer

[open tiger]

true. I understand why they are reluctant to accept it.

[strange gale]

it's flawed on both ends, to be clear

[azure oriole]

Do I have to keep repeating they used a mech because of real life limitations, and
Do I have to keep repeating that this is a baseless assumption and that the mech is completely irrelevant to "real life limitations?" They could have easily had us fight Davoth without the mech all they wanted. They deliberately chose for the mech to be a part of the creative depiction of Davoth. You are disregarding this and acting like it's entirely because of real life limitations. This is not how game development works.

[open tiger]

they fall to the back when their limitations necessitate the lore coming to the forefront

[azure oriole]

You say that this is a strawman but you refused to actually answer my question in any case. How far does this argument about cutscenes not being relevant to the actual story go?

Especially when you are the one interpreting there to be a contradiction between them and the lore. I see no contradiction. Nothing in the lore contradicts the statement that Davoth has been weakened in TAG2.

You are interpreting a contradiction and arguing that this contradiction is objective. It is not.

[pulsar zinc]

This is such a silly take like what are you on? He used crucible swords since the start, he used it without armor in his battle with the father.

Anyone can use the weapons that’s not the point.

You’re not human level if you can survive getting hit by higher dimensional energy attacks, idk if you understand what we are even talking about tbh

Like I post things that show evidence and try to explain it but you only watched the first one and clearly didn’t pay attention cuz you asked for proof of stuff that was there later.

[azure oriole]

When did I say Davoth was "human level?"

[pulsar zinc]

No one said cut scenes are not canon or anything last time I checked so kinda weird to cover.

[azure oriole]

Do you understand that there is a middle ground between "human level" and "omnipotent god capable of unmaking dimensions with his mind?"

[pulsar zinc]

He isn’t omnipotent, just cuz he is a god who can make and erase a universe and a multiverse doesn’t make him all powerful.

The middle ground is wrong tho cuz the lore says he can and the very story and origins of him and this world back it up.

[novel vector]

#doom-eternal message this comes close

[azure oriole]

Okay so again: explain to me why he did not unmake the world the minute he awoke in the Luminarium.

Because, just like all these other claims being made about the Slayer, this conclusion breaks the story and fundamentally does not align with the narrative being presented to us.

[novel vector]

he forgot he could /s

[buoyant hearth]

No blood can be spilled in this holy place, but I can spill the beans on what's gonna make it easy for you to kill me

[pulsar zinc]

Yes cuz he was gonna kill the slayer first he said he needed to face him cuz he would be in his way and he wanted to have a ritual combat fight, the slayer is the only one in his way that can stop him.

[shell fox]

There's so many ways they could have made Davoth as powerful as Carni claims he is during gameplay

[novel vector]

why did he want a ritual combat fight

[azure oriole]

Okay but if he just unmade the world that second, what is the Slayer going to do?

[novel vector]

that is literally the only way he can die iirc

[shell fox]

Yet they didn't

[azure oriole]

The Slayer certainly does not have the power to reshape realities. If Davoth has the ability to create, bend, and destroy reality on a whim, then there was nothing stopping him from unmaking Urdak around them, unmaking Earth, and unmaking everything but Hell itself. In fact, even in the lore text he should have been able to do this the moment Urdak betrayed him.

[open tiger]

he said he would beat the slayer THEN do it. A simple explanation without contradicting the lore and devs is that he wanted to do it after beating the slayer. Huh.

[pulsar zinc]

Yeah I think he misspoke

The issue with even cut scenes is the same with gameplay and any visual media, we can’t show people moving beyond the speed of light accurately to people it would be a blur and incomprehensible, so they seem to move at finite speeds in cut scenes that’s just an example of what I assume he was referring to basically.

[novel vector]

oh god we're back to the speed of light thing

[strange gale]

you believe that the slayer can run at lightspeed, yes? if that is so, then why doesn't he kill olivia the second he gets to that glass panel at the end of the foundry?

[azure oriole]

This interpretation assumes that an all-powerful God who can completely unmake the universe with his mind is choosing to throw away his chance to effortlessly do this so he can have a slapping contest with the Slayer, whom, under this argument, he could have easily dispatched without having to fight him with a sword and a shield.

i.e. it requires you to believe Davoth is a complete fucking drooling idiot.

[novel vector]

thats dumb as hell on his part then

[pulsar zinc]

This is like asking why doesn’t a villain kill the hero right away or go on with their plan instantly, it is the character wanting to get rid of the only threat to him before he does it, he could of done it technically but hey I didn’t write story did I?

[novel vector]

can we not bring up the lightspeed again, that was already a really dumb argument, it doesnt need to come back

[pulsar zinc]

He wanted to have a final fight with his monster and do it in the old ways, this is how he wanted to face his only threat.

[novel vector]

then hes just a moron

[strange gale]

these two believe that that's within the slayer's capabilities, and i believe that would fundamentally break the stories of both doom 2016 and doom eternal, as in it's a massive fucking plot hole, so i'd like to hear an argument for the contrary

[azure oriole]

Yeah so your interpretation of this is adding more plotholes to the story.

[open tiger]

because the villain here wanted to address the biggest and most interesting threat....the destruction of creation was revenege against the maykrs who he already corrupted, so its not really high on his to do list as compared to the slayer.

[azure oriole]

Why can't he just unmake the Maykrs? Why did he need the Slayer to do this? There was a gap in time between the initial betrayal and his "death" at the hands of the Father.

[open tiger]

Right so lets go with the one that cherry picks everything instead of the one that logically makes sense wrt everything

[shell fox]

Man let me handle the Doom lore I'll make it clear

[azure oriole]

Logically makes sense with everything except for the gameplay, cutscenes, characters, mechanics, universe, etc...

[shell fox]

💯

[novel vector]

:clueless:

[azure oriole]

This interpretation is fundamentally at odds with every aspect of the modern Doom franchise that isn't this specific interpretation of a specific line of lore text. It does not align with the plot, it does not align with the cutscenes, it doesn't align with the gameplay or the framework the gameplay was built on, and it doesn't align the the ludonarrative nature of a videogame and the connection between its gameplay and story.

[pulsar zinc]

It isn’t a plot hole it’s a character flaw for davoth technically he feared the slayer was a threat he needed to stop first and due to his arrogance & honor he challenged him to ritual combat.

[novel vector]

before someone misunderstands this, this was to the deleted link

[azure oriole]

No, it's a plothole, because this character flaw is not something Davoth has. It's something you are making up to justify a headcanon that does not align with the story. It is twisting what's actually in the game.

[open tiger]

i know...your headcanon has a lot of holes, including the logically consitent part

[novel vector]

we already got arrogance with samuel

not to say we cant do it multiple times

[azure oriole]

You are asking me to disregard virtually every element of Doom that isn't a specific line of lore text and your interpretation of it. The cutscenes are unreliable. The gameplay's unreliable. The characters are unreliable. Hell, the lore text is unreliable when it doesn't agree with me! Tell me, what is reliable in order to fit your idea of the Doom story?

[pulsar zinc]

Cuz they sealed him inside Jekkad so he was trapped then the father fought and beat him there.

Why did he need the slayer? He was sealed.

[slow sigil]

I know, which is why i fully embrace them as plotholes and don't try to explain them

[open tiger]

its logically sound with everything shown in the game. Justify why davoth not destroying everything but the slayer instantly is something he HAS to do if he is that powerful.

[azure oriole]

Davoth is a God capable of making and unmaking dimensions with his mind but he conveniently cannot break through a barrier?

[slow sigil]

How could the sentinels somehow go to jekkad, despite literally a minute before being explained you can only get there through divum??? Simple, it's a plothole

[shell fox]

I'm applying for writer at id this is gonna be such an easy paycheck

[open tiger]

Again with the game mechanics.....\

[azure oriole]

Logically sound except with the cutscenes since apparently those don't count, right? Or the gameplay, upon which Doom's entire identity is built on?

[open tiger]

again a strawman.

[slow sigil]

Like genuinly, there is no shame in saying "yeah the devs rushed X so it doesn't make sense"

[azure oriole]

YOU set that precedent, lol. You have to deal with it.

[novel vector]

everythings a strawman

[open tiger]

yeah baseless assumption not like budgets exist, covid hit, etc. Right.

[azure oriole]

Right because COVID forced them to build a model of an Immoran mech for Davoth. Absolutely

[buoyant hearth]

Man who has only heard of the strawman fallacy when he witnesses an argument for the first time:
“This is a strawman!”

[novel vector]

tell me, how is this a strawman??

According to Merriam Webster, and 8th grade English, a strawman is a weak or imaginary opposition (such as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted

[azure oriole]

Lmao

[pulsar zinc]

I never said the cut scenes were wrong but they can’t show everything due to visual limitations ofc

The gameplay is balanced to make it fun and challenging, him dying to an imp makes no sense in his story, the lore, and given everything else. If he can fight and take hits from titans how would he die to an imp? It isn’t logical.

I posted links but you didn’t read or watch most of them, I can dm them to you so you can take your time, I didn’t want this to happen I didn’t want to rush it and turn into this mess but the other guy did and I can’t just let him do it on his own cuz we agree many similar things.

[novel vector]

now where is the imaginary opposition in m0no's message?

[azure oriole]

No no dude you can't say the cutscenes are unreliable now! They're only unreliable when they don't fit my argument! This does not set a precedent for the rest of the cutscenes at all!

[slow sigil]

Yeah, as because of those the lore has a few holes that don't lign up with actualities. Not "the game itself is wrong" lol

[shell fox]

Wouldn't doom eternal play more like the artifact powerup from doom 3 RoE if all these lore claims were real?

[azure oriole]

Yes

[novel vector]

DGA is literally acting like a strawman for making a point about dumb middle schoolers rn

[azure oriole]

Having fun y’all

[shell fox]

Vorp! It can be expressed through gameplay guys, see??? It's almost like they didn't intend Doomguy to be that powerful!

[novel vector]

i wanted to stay neutral in this argument, to just watch, i cannot do that honestly

[deft adder]

soup

[buoyant hearth]

DGA, time to get off the internet for a moment and read the Lore guide

[azure oriole]

Doomguy is infinite layers into boundless simple

[buoyant hearth]

Oh wait, m0no wrote it so it must be full of strawmen

[azure oriole]

[austere bronze]

Soup is extremely mid

[strange gale]

you are discussing a video game, not a fantasy book or a movie script, and if in your mind the events of the game have little to no bearing on its lore, then you should remain consistent with that mindset and treat the lore as disconnected from the game, or in other words, a fantasy book

[pulsar zinc]

It was dimensional barrier made by The Father and his maykrs, you know the same father who is around the same level of power, it’s very simple.

[deft adder]

BURN WITH THE DEMONS

[novel vector]

dga went offline lmao

did dude just quit?

[austere bronze]

Nah, I'm good

[deft adder]

soup is fire

[azure oriole]

We need more soup

[buoyant hearth]

That won’t cut it, watch this

[austere bronze]

Yk what? Soup isn't even mid, it's just plain bad

[shell fox]

To make the lore-gameplay disparity work you would have to write new lore and rewrite a lot of shit

[buoyant hearth]

Gravy is overrated and it makes everything taste like grease

[deft adder]

NOURRRRRR