Constructive Feedback

[red python]

2. as a developer, you need to be able to disconnect personal feelings from professional work, self restraint can create a lot of good effects for both your mental health and the game's state of how interactions between the ct and community is handled. I understand that sometimes you might see something that is very tempting to comment on, but there is a responsibility to know whether you should respond or not after assessing how your response may affect the people. A healthier approach is to link said thing to a person more adept at responding and handling the public and taking their help in communication.

[austere willow]

I do agree with the second point BUT it comes with the big caveat that players being an influence on decisions is good but players feeling like whatever they will should happen isn't good

[signal frigate]

unc

[smoky orchid]

why the fuck do people keep skulling on everything

[toxic patrol]

it wears you down when there's like 10 people dogging on you especially when you don't get paid to stomach it down and not everyone can handle it

[lament iron]

oohhhh the temptation is real

[dull locust]

chat gpt does NOT take that long to give an answer

[toxic patrol]

big wall I'm skull react

[lament iron]

TNA FLYING SKULLS, ATTACK

[smoky orchid]

anyway.

[toxic patrol]

the skulls have diminished your healing

[brazen agate]

sugo's message just felt like a "please stop talking" kinda message but phrased with flowery words, so I skull reacted it

[smoky orchid]

believe me i know this point hard. you have no idea how many times ive thought to myself that if i just kept quieter about things that maybe people wouldnt have attacked other CT so much, cause i wouldnt have been giving them ammo. this is a point ive been struggling with for basically my whole life

[granite warren]

I miss Madeline. I think she left for that exact reason :(

[sly sand]

What should influence decisions then, I'm not arguing against your point you just didn't state what should

[signal frigate]

It’s kinda inevitable, they would have gotten it somehow sadly

[smoky orchid]

im the type who feels like if theres still points to be made in a conversation the conversation isnt over yet. textbook overexplaining, and that makes stuff come off as arguments cause i keep swinging back around to small points since, to me, they havent been adequately explained

[grave glade]

Ok so I understand that there are intentions behind those changes that players wouldn't be able to get behind because they don't have the insight that you do but if you have masses of people getting upset changelog after changelog and even have people quit the game because they don't want to put up with it anymore you should ask yourself if you're doing something wrong as a team

[wind gate]

nerf poison again

[glossy token]

we know this also and we weigh it against longer term impacts

We will get better at timing and pairing with other things I think. A lot of this is coming from us wanting to snipe it all before fruma in order for fruma to be the best possible release

Pains now > huge pain at fruma release taking away from update

[smoky orchid]

i hardly even realize im arguing half the time and it makes me incredibly confused when people refer to wht i thought of as a nice long civil conversation as like, a ten-round bloodbath boxing match of an argument

[austere willow]

well player feedback obviously should and It does immensely do so

[glass comet]

a ten-round what?

[signal frigate]

https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1372534637418774629

🤣

[dull locust]

@glass comet

[smoky orchid]

anyway

[toxic patrol]

timing is definitely a big issue in more recent times we can definitely look in hindsight and see like wow 2 months of mostly nerfs to more popular items can wear down dedicated players

[glossy token]

Like for example you guys all complain about sp nerfs and want only at big update. Imagine we did this on fruma drop? All your builds break when you want to go run into fruma

So yeah. We think in this respect (there’s other things I can’t say) as well. And this stuff mostly isn’t public so you guys can’t see or will ever know

[granite warren]

Selvut, that's probably like, unironically an autistic trait ahahahahaha

[slate nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/marvel-fan4stic-fantastic-four-the-thing-say-that-again-gif-9345984830195785978

[hybrid meteor]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1074033334310682717/1354342740049133641/togif-3.gif

[smoky orchid]

yeah, it is, cause i am autistic

[granite warren]

Oh. Congratulations and also my condolences

[austere willow]

but you also gotta remember that some of these people have been making wynn for countless years (salted 10+ years) and others have been designing and working on different minecraft projects for just as many years so there has to be some trust that the people who created the experience you love today do have a good vision for its future. That trust isn't always present im aware of that but its important to remember that sometimes

[smoky orchid]

maddie had similar problems

[signal frigate]

wtf did I read

[red python]

sometimes it just feels bad to look at how much you have to handle, please take care man and don't let personal things people say get too much on your nerves.

[slate nebula]

especially when atleast from my perspective, it seems like we have no say in influencing the changes

[smoky orchid]

thats why she left. she had similar problems as i did when talking about stuff but also had a lot less tolerance for harassment and it was wearing on her mental health really badly

[glossy token]

selvut is unironically a goat at this generally and agree

[sly sand]

Conversations over the internet are bound to be confusing and often result in participants being angry. compared to conversations/debates IRL where people can explain their points more thoroughly it results in healthier conversation. So its not your fault

[smoky orchid]

like i said. the issue wasnt people insulting me it was people harassing others using what i said as ammo or springboards

[red python]

I don't use chat gpt for anything I write, it can't convey my mind properly

[smoky orchid]

if it was just people yelling at me id never have left IM/AT

[austere willow]

most narcissistic reply i've ever seen (this is a JOKE)

[glossy token]

when I wrote the message for the changelog a few times ago I was asked if I used gpt by a certain IM and then I was mad 🫥

[austere willow]

the all powerful ai cannot convey his mind

[red python]

🔥

[toxic patrol]

gulp

[sly sand]

I cant convey my mind properly 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️ 🔥 🔥 🔥

[glossy token]

👀

[fickle bay]

REAL

[slate nebula]

cut down on the zhight herbal maybe

[weak plinth]

Can someone pin first message I don’t wanna scroll 😭

[red python]

no just hard to translate thought process that goes in my mind 😭 I struggle with communication sometimes

[slate nebula]

#1372477039881486366 message

[weak plinth]

Thank you

[dull locust]

#1372477039881486366 message

[austere willow]

i cannot pin otherwise i would

[austere willow]

not on mobile 😭 ^

[dull locust]

mobile discord isnt advanced enough

[glass comet]

oh right

[smoky orchid]

yeah i was about to say it isnt on mobile but on desktop theres a jump to top button

[unique iron]

also doesn't actually work

[toxic patrol]

can devs not pin what the flip

[graceful talon]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

[hybrid meteor]

Pin this

[dull locust]

pins you

[plush hollow]

This

[toxic patrol]

I have a lab in 4 hours and I have slept 0

goodbye

[hybrid meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/f-gif-13187333855191538260

[dull locust]

._.

[smoky orchid]

either way regardless of how many paper shredders get posted CT is actually critically looking at the complaints and trying to do their best with what they receive, and despite mistakes are actually making the attempt to better the game. theres room for improvement as always

[glossy token]

the paper shredder is only funny when CT posts it

[grave glade]

Too bad they never make mistakes 💔

[lament iron]

I should print out a feedback post and actually shred it for the memes

[smoky orchid]

as CT i can confirm i make mistakes

[glossy token]

bro is a goat at causing violence

[grave glade]

wtf I just complimented y'all

[glossy token]

we don’t appreciate the sarcasm

[grave glade]

ohhhh my god

[wind gate]

we dont appreicate the nerf

👴

[austere willow]

I do see the jokiness in that one but im ngl you caused this yourself unfortunately because you've made a lot of inflammatory comments

[smoky orchid]

yyyep

[austere willow]

so sorry if we jump to conclusions 😭

[plush hollow]

https://tenor.com/view/printer-shredder-fax-machine-spam-customer-service-gif-25361577

-# was that funny

[austere willow]

very

[wind gate]

ha ha ha!

[glossy token]

yeah I’m dying

[narrow sentinel]

Some would call it hilarious even

[signal frigate]

I’m dying laughing

[smoky orchid]

anyway CT does intend to try and get better about this- its primarily IM/AT related with the current stuff but i can guarantee that they arent just ignoring all this. whatever decision they make, i cant tell for sure but it will be an informed one that much i can tell you.

[wind gate]

yippee

[sly sand]

👍 👍 👍
all good its just I think players feel not heard sometimes and legitimate concerns for the game can often get drowned out but regardless thank you for talking with the community about this stuff

[smoky orchid]

image related for whats next for me once i turn off the computer and go to bed but it has nothing to do with this thread surprisingly

good night

[grave glade]

well it's just that I've barely ever seen things I care about get changed. I still think that removing rally from fallen was a terrible idea and you can see that pretty clearly now, nobody wants to play it anymore because it's just outright annoying.

Even though it is very evident that close to nobody can even get behind the hpr changes they are still gonna go through with them

So I just honestly do not get the feeling as a player that mistakes are acknowledged through feedback and fixed

[narrow sentinel]

Good night!

[glossy token]

patience….

[toxic patrol]

rally was done prematurely I can agree with

[wind gate]

how many people are on archer team

[austere willow]

I really really struggle to comprehend comments like this and I dont know what to do about it.

I seriously think that anybody who says that we don't do things based on feedback is willfully ignoring the majority of changelogs

[slate nebula]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/990505919332904971/1372538642379309066/4Q8yEVd.gif

[glossy token]

Looks at literally like most at and im change

[austere willow]

we obviously make mistakes but just saying "i've barely ever seen things i care about get changed" makes me wonder:

• what do you care about
• have you only been looking for negative things and glazing over the positive ones

[glossy token]

95% of changes are things someone has said in the community to do before

[wind gate]

like removing the 50 guardian angel and escape nodes

[austere willow]

I'm not annoyed or anything i just want to understand where that sentiment comes from because anybody can look at constructive feedback and see that so SO often the next patch has something related in it

[wind gate]

pretty please with a cherry on top

[grave glade]

ok I think it is quite hard to see anything positive within the past few changelogs and also feedback is supposed to focus on things that you think are done wrong? Otherwise it wouldnt be constructive

[austere willow]

or AT questions or ask IMS

[sly sand]

when armour breaker was removed from fallen, Battle monk should have gotten a similar ability 👍 or some sort of debuffing enemy ability (armour breaker was kinda broken)

[austere willow]

feedback isn't limited to problems no, this isn't true

[glossy token]

dude you act like the feedback where there is any disconnect isn’t around only 3 of a hundred changes of the entire patch

[grave glade]

okay I'm done here lol

[narrow sentinel]

I mean I see the lifesteal and exploding changes as a huge positive

[plush hollow]

And bmonk, acro and a couple more

[austere willow]

not really sure why I was just saying that it really does motivate the entire team when we see posts that also point out positive changes. Obviously we'd like feedback that can improve the game but that doesn't have to be in a negative light either

[grave glade]

ok sure but I'm here to talk about the things that I don't like I don't need to be in a feedback channel just to say I like the changes

[austere willow]

Back to this though. Really? Like seriously you find it "hard to see anything positive" in the "last few" changelogs

[grave glade]

that's just the nature of a 'constructive feedback' forum

There is close to no point in pointing out positive changes. Theres not much to talk about there

[glossy token]

maybe try something like

“This this and this all make sense and then THIS in particular I think would go better if xxx yyy feedback”

[glass comet]

its actually quite hard to see anything negative within the past few changelogs just that the few negatives are really bad

[narrow sentinel]

Feedback also means talking about the good changes as well, that way they know what the player base likes and what they don't like

[plush hollow]

^

[glossy token]

exactly, there’s no basis of comparison otherwise

[red python]

okay I wanna make a small comment on this

I agree with the fact you said about feedback being considered (battlemonk buffs for example)

but I can answer your question atleast on where a lot of people get the sentiment of not going through with feedback

priorities not aligning and focusing on a few outliers (short term outliers)

now to explain these terms I just threw

priorities mean that a lot of people who complain about this have different priority in what feedback should be addressed first and what shouldn't, when the changes doesn't reflect their priority it creates the feeling of disconnect

now extreme focusing occurs when some negative outliers are extremely focused on and create situations where it's blown up to be the main focus, overlooking other stuff

these would be the two reasons this sentiment is created

[austere willow]

Constructive feedback that is painted in a less negative light than lots of people do is far more likely to be listened to because its easier to digest, easier to see as a team what we did right aswell as what we did wrong so that we can do our job and come up with more good ideas in the future

Knowing what changes are well received in contrast to problems is really helpful for making better design decisions in the future

[glossy token]

make the feeling less as possible (including replies) so we have nothing to weed through

[austere willow]

Like this post: https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1323561078730522737

[brazen agate]

If archer has no fans then I am dead

[austere willow]

Absolutely invaluable!

[wind gate]

dude ive been in the trenches with this class

[red python]

would you say the same for bmonk changes being positively recieved?

[austere willow]

Genuinely amazing for making improvements and sorting out whats good and bad

[native dew]

thinking about playing archer vs archer

[glossy token]

it helps if posts are shorter and only straight to point as well

we generally don’t need overly long explanations

[wind gate]

i think the last thing that could possibly be considered a net positive buff is aspect of the beastmaster increasing the dps of the dog and thats over like 10 changelogs

[brazen agate]

I'll have you know I'm playing archer

[wind gate]

ignis main getting 55 hpr 🔥 ridiculous stopping power

[dull locust]

that better be plague

[native dew]

so am I (but I wish I could be playing hawkeye https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1367755595054059522)

[brazen agate]

is nice when my ignis has a near perfect hpr roll

[austere willow]

I definitely agree that this causes the disconnect but as I said earlier there is no solution to it. Resources and time isn't the limiting factor anymore its just too much to make meaningful changes to everything at the same time often

[dull locust]

look good feedback

[wind gate]

time for my monthly buff archer thread

[toxic patrol]

hawkeye is so messed up idek where to start

[narrow sentinel]

It's also important to note that I feel like feedback on nerfs/buffs can only really be given after the update actually gets released, so that people have the time to actually test the nerfs/buffs

[plush hollow]

Hopefully a decent amount. Ask a at or something

[brazen agate]

I have plagues in my inv but i use chain lightning ignis lmao

[toxic patrol]

it's just a tough nut to crack since 2.0

[austere willow]

We have to create priorities that line up with long terms plans that you guys obviously don't know but also just arbitrarily too. We have to decide what comes first even if its just based on feeling at the end because theres multiple things that are both important

[brazen agate]

buff hawkeye 🥺

[wind gate]

i heard one person and they are working on the sharp change rn and dont touch the other two archetypes

[native dew]

I'd be glad to hear abt it in my thread

[austere willow]

and that will never line up with every one of thousands of individual players priority lists

[glass comet]

eh in some cases like a simple base dps nerf or just most stat changes its pretty easy to just plug the new numbrs into wynnbuilder and see

[glossy token]

Can’t come all at once either. No way to attribute variance otherwise

[plush hollow]

Was this Chris?

[wind gate]

no clue gng

[narrow sentinel]

That is also true

[toxic patrol]

I personally have not really involved myself in hawkeye discussion internally so I can't really say other than from skimming chats

[plush hollow]

If so, iirc he does work on other things outside of archer

[brazen agate]

it should do what it did to old arrow storm, condense damage into 5 clean bolts and then just get slight mult bonuses from aspects and the like imo

[austere willow]

We have people focusing on every single archetype that is in our plans to change quite a lot in the future

[wind gate]

hooray

[slate nebula]

mostly just waiting for boltslinger or ritualist 💤

[sly sand]

flat nerfs to items are pretty telling though
eg: warp and slayer are getting hpr nerfs so there we go hpr nerfs
other things I agree on though like people have to test out the buffs to acrobat and bmonk to actually see if its a meaningful change before criticizing/praising

[wind gate]

is the future near

[brazen agate]

The current implementation gets tanked so hard by elemental defenses which just does not feel good to use

[fickle bay]

That’s just the whole of bolt

[toxic patrol]

lol yeah ^ but there's some conflicts with that solution we are just trying to approach it the correct way whatever that means

[slate nebula]

is it true or not that some of the balance is based on fruma and/or the supposed increased level cap?

[toxic patrol]

I can't really go too in depth about it because I would be leaking some internal mechanics

[slate nebula]

not fully based ig but you get what i mean i hope

[hybrid meteor]

Dont u have classes

[toxic patrol]

yeah I lied about going to sleep

[austere willow]

I saw that comment earlier in this thread by someone and I obviously can't comment about it

[hybrid meteor]

Why would u do that

[toxic patrol]

I unno

[brazen agate]

Oh yes... Tarnished a Redditor, are we?

[hybrid meteor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1025425782836834384/1306760959527747714/togif.gif

[toxic patrol]

I need someone to knock me out or something

[fickle bay]

Imagine lying as a mod

[austere willow]

We haven't been deliberately nerfing things because of a power increase in fruma though if thats the question

[granite warren]

It's my go-to for anyone who's LGBT+ or neurodivergent. Cause like, congratulations on discovering more about yourself, but my condolences because the entire rest of your life is going to be disproportionately more difficult

[grave glade]

Well most of the points made in #1371705457105702982 can be made without having tested anything I would say

Like the gap between usable and unusable warps becoming even higher and the issue of people having to change and recraft their builds way too often

[austere willow]

we're making changes now based on the current game pretty much exclusively

[toxic patrol]

in fact there will be 0 items in fruma

[signal frigate]

No I get that

My brain just couldn’t process the double sided swap in half a sentence

[plush hollow]

Leaking?!?!?!?!

[wind gate]

last december is the last time ive seen archer get a significant net positive in a changelog (that is not just bug related)

[brazen agate]

[plush hollow]

Get salted over here!

[austere willow]

and some people hated that change lmfao

[native dew]

not me

[toxic patrol]

that one comic about holding spacebar to heat your computer

[red python]

I think the majority playerbase liked it tbh

[wind gate]

i feel like u are taking the minority here

[native dew]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1037118557156286464/1354289437399453726/favoritechild.gif

this is outdated

[slate nebula]

nah archer shouldnt even be there

[austere willow]

what i said about archer ^

[wind gate]

i feel bad too man trust me!

[toxic patrol]

yeah it's definitely in the minority it's just something to note that there will always be some group of people that liked it a different way

[austere willow]

hey actually this isnt true!

@dull locust will tell you i made a bunch of sharpshooter fixes that makes it nicer

[plush hollow]

Where's warrior ._.

[sly sand]

fr where is warrior in this

[native dew]

flying kick purgatory

[dull locust]

Terminated RUINED sharpshooter

[austere willow]

(not saying i fixed it lol)

[sly sand]

just dead on the side ig

[plush hollow]

Ah

[sly sand]

it died of dehydration 😭

[plush hollow]

Kicked all the water away

[pearl zealot]

chat when next "accidental" battlemonk nerf

[granite warren]

Upper SURF for a reason

[toxic patrol]

erm didn't it just get buffed

[plush hollow]

Yes

[granite warren]

It didn't get buffed because I can't read! Checkmate liberal

[plush hollow]

But it's still funny to joke about

[brazen agate]

Small question, is it possible to detect if a spell or melee attack is recast with time rift? Having my focus reset from recasts is among the most frustrating sharp experiences and I think the interaction between sorcery and focus would be greatly improved if it were to only reset on attacks actually cast by the player

[pearl zealot]

for every buff battle monk gets there are 3 "accidental" nerfs

[red python]

okay I will give a personal take

• bmonk rebalance to be more cohesive, responsive and rewarding
• fallen healing being fixed

warrior becomes good again

[brazen agate]

If it's not possible that's totally fine

[pearl zealot]

mantles

[native dew]

not the point, I despise its existence

[pearl zealot]

you've forgot about mantles

[austere willow]

I think this kinda removes the "unstableness" of sorcery though

[granite warren]

It's funny how you say "becomes good again" when warrior is like, the best class in the whole ass game despite those things ahahahahaha

[dull locust]

Focus is gonna get changed anyway

[toxic patrol]

war scream ☹️

[wind gate]

archer got some of the craziest changelogs on the planet

[slate nebula]

personal take is to just rework bmonk since its a mess
fix fallen boss healing (somehow)

[narrow sentinel]

I do agree that having to change builds every 2 weeks sucks yeah (and that the warp nerf was a bit too harsh, but this is likely due to them wanting to nerf warp's hpr and pushing the other hpr changes which increased the amount of -hpr by another 15-25%)

[pearl zealot]

@red python

[red python]

good design wise not performance, should've clarified sry

[slate nebula]

i wake up
theres a new changelog
5 archer bugs fixed

[dull locust]

U put the most impactful screenshot last...

[native dew]

I have to change builds every 2 weeks bc pally keeps getting buffed, guardian stays winning 🔥

[wind gate]

me when i see Archer in changelog (i know there will be one dot point)

[toxic patrol]

what if war scream did not shove mobs with the force of a california driver and have a 16 block radius

[pearl zealot]

and 10 new added

[red python]

instead it crashes like a texas truck next to a pavement

[toxic patrol]

alas I just make the item

[brazen agate]

I feel it would still be quite random and it's not near as consistently punishing on other archetypes since it doesn't recast movement spells anymore.
Also most sorcery items have some nasty drawbacks built in, which leads me to think the feeling of instability would still be preserverd in a way

[granite warren]

Btw @austere willow @lament iron @smoky orchid and anyone else I missed from CT, thank you for willingly jumping into a hostile conversation that was filled with unease and anger, and genuinely pouring your hearts out about your intentions, thoughts, and goals.

Tbh, I think just having good communication in general goes a really long way for bridging that gap between "what CT is doing" and "what players are hopeful for"

[wind gate]

two bug fixes and one twains qol change (one playstyle uses twains)

[grave glade]

Yea it's just the wrong move I can't find any arguments for it. It just makes warp harder to cancel out. It doesn't even nerf dmg by a lot it just requires you to own an even godlier warp...

[austere willow]

the intention was to make it harder to cancel for the record

[dull locust]

Those two bugfixes are like half the problems with focus

[austere willow]

thats been expressly noted by IMs

[wind gate]

sharpshooter (effective range of 5 blocks)

[toxic patrol]

yeah I mean in the end everything that's roll dependent is about the rolls (who woulda thought)

[grave glade]

Same for slayer. And I don't think slayer needed a nerf at all. I understand wanting to nerf warps dmg (it's just that touching the hpr wasn't right imo)

[glass comet]

already said this but slayer shouldve at least gotten some other compensation back

[narrow sentinel]

I mean one crafted hpr ring and it's basically negated no?

[granite warren]

What if they gave Quetz the same base DPS as Warp

[granite warren]

I think most warp builds don't have the slot for it..?

[glass comet]

if your warp is good sure but for bad warps it gets reallybad

[wind gate]

depends on ur warp

[grave glade]

nah the optimal build would look different

[glass comet]

most warp builds rn run 4 crafted damage rings

[toxic patrol]

I have seen things I wish I did not see

[sly sand]

amazing, warrior needs changes
while warrior did get buffs this patch
fallen is still in an awful state and just feels bad to play especially with out a healer beside you at all times
while the buffs to bmonk are appreciated they will still likely not be enough but I digress
Paladin is in a decent spot I guess I just think a lot of people find the play style boring/uninteresting especially when most content in the game is very easy to survive without a paladin on the team

[austere willow]

I've always tried to be active and respond. Obviously i'm not immune to getting annoyed by people and I will continue to actively call out people that start with even the smallest amount of unwarranted personal aggression

[toxic patrol]

in regards to warp builds as of late

[slate nebula]

common consensus among endgame players is that warp shouldnt be made harder to cancel, and rather be worse damage, because it makes warp an even worse case of only rich, established players being able to play it

[dull locust]

Did igotyoursix dm you

[toxic patrol]

no why

[wind gate]

yeah dont u need like blue roll for warp

[slate nebula]

basically atp

[wind gate]

gg

[austere willow]

I am not a build maker but you can play warp without fully cancelling it

[grave glade]

and even so, this doesn't change anything about my point. It still makes warp harder to roll for it to be usable in hpr cancel builds which is bad.

[austere willow]

not saying run it with mega negative but you don't need to fully fully cancel it

[brazen agate]

knowing how six is I can guess the content of the dms

[austere willow]

it was given those stats for a reason lmao

[toxic patrol]

I wish that people weren't super preoccupied with like perfectly cancelling warp hpr but therrs a bigger fault at -hpr being super annoying for like doing non fighting activities

[wind gate]

warp is also not the best in damage anyways its always been a quality of life weapon

[slate nebula]

well yea you dont need full cancel but its still a case of a money sink

[wind gate]

having neg hpr on a quality of life weapon is just not quality of life for a lot of players

[glass comet]

the qol comes from 150 agi and 234 ws lmao

[austere willow]

you can't say warp is purely a qol weapon lol

[grave glade]

People play warp because it's fun to play. It wouldn't be fun with negative hpr.

The gimmick in warp is being able to cancel hpr and it always is going to be because warp is a QoL item.

[narrow sentinel]

I guess so, the chances of rolling stay the same just the entry layer for hpr goes up I guess

[austere willow]

everything is always in such extremes it seems, something is either "the best" or "only played because its fun"

[sly sand]

Fatal does more dmg (typically) and has less downsides

[toxic patrol]

in the end hpr is it's sole balance point because mr doesn't really do anything on arcanist

[grave glade]

Yes

[wind gate]

quetz deals more damage asw

[brazen agate]

the ultimate comfort weapon, range, shield spam and a ton of hp

[wind gate]

didnt it get nerfed in damage

[toxic patrol]

u ain't shield spamming with that roll bub

[red python]

fym shield spam with those rolls

[wind gate]

warp is a pretty extreme weapon

[brazen agate]

maybe not spam yk but it doesn't kill mana to cast it whenever it runs out, my bad

[brazen agate]

yeah but still fun to use if you aren't meticulously optimizing for clear speed

[red python]

no no it's fine we were joking about your ignis in particular lol

[dull locust]

Remove mr roll then

[wind gate]

aigh bro

[shut plinth]

given how expensive it is the majority of people wouldnt play it if it wasn't for the qol, it is outperformed in every other way.

most people dont wanna do 20+ stx on a downgrade so yeah i would say if it lost the qol many many people wouldnt play it

[native dew]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1037118557156286464/1372546191014756382/newupdateyay.GIF

[brazen agate]

yeah that roll is ass LMAO

[toxic patrol]

no but even if you did can you imagine what it would lose it return lol

[glass comet]

ī never said -hpr is qol but you cant just say theres no qol on warp

[wind gate]

i said warp is qol negative hpr is not qol we literally agree what are u saying

long day bro

anyways please buff archer i am on my knees and shi 🙏

[toxic patrol]

increased ||arrow recoil||

[wind gate]

aw shucks i cannot do my 200k damage on orphion anymore

[dull locust]

Give strati -2nd cost, its so bad compared to like warp and idol

[wind gate]

yo honestly strati trapper is cooking

its 100% because of the armour and 0% because of the item but still

[grave glade]

Why would it be 3rd spell 1st spell would fit better

[dull locust]

I means second

[grave glade]

Ohh!!

[toxic patrol]

as much as I would want to give it some important roll it would effectively reroll all stratis I think I'd rather just give it a major id and modify existing rolls

[wind gate]

yes please give anything any significnat non useless powder special buff at all

[toxic patrol]

my eyeballs have been on strati lately

[grave glade]

You don't rly need escape cost on strati id prefer a 2x dmg increase

[dull locust]

People will be DEVASTATED to have their item have an extra positive stat

[glass comet]

you know what people are like and yes they will

[toxic patrol]

well yeah because then you'll get joe shmoe with their green strati turn yellow

[glass cosmos]

strati major id: wind prison now does 400% dmg instead of 200% you dont have to thank me 👍

[grave glade]

Strati damage could be doubled it would still only be half good.. let that sink in

[wind gate]

please do not add stratiformis wind prison major id

[dull locust]

Seriously tho make fierce stomp spam a real build

[grave glade]

Pls no that's so ass 💔

[wind gate]

stratiformis deals damage (on trapper) solely because air items are broken

[golden plover]

What an absolute banger of a post

[toxic patrol]

I would personally not put a powder major on strati

[wind gate]

thank u lord

[toxic patrol]

but I digress

[wind gate]

all i have ever asked for is a meaningful major id on a meaningless weapon or any significant net buff to any aspect of archer ever

[grave glade]

No because why would you ever even charge a powder special on strati 😭

[wind gate]

for curse

[glass cosmos]

lightbender warp 🙏

[unique iron]

yeah the powder major is going on freedom smh

[toxic patrol]

you generally go tdrop on archer anyway because ms is more efficient

[glass comet]

can we rework weathered mID please

[grave glade]

Echoes of the lost strati

waiiit I'm cooking ....

[toxic patrol]

ok well I personally was thinking atlas or something

[wind gate]

2020 straat

[native dew]

no u aint sorc on archer is dog

[grave glade]

Atlas in 2025 ...

[glass cosmos]

heavy melee strati omggggggg

[wind gate]

its only good on bolt

[grave glade]

Duh?! Strati is made for bolt y'all are weird if u play trapper

[wind gate]

no because strati is ass unless ur playing trapper

[grave glade]

Ik but trust the process

[wind gate]

ur not telling me its designed as a mainhand with 16% spell damage as its only combat stat

[glass cosmos]

erm
strati also has 16% melee dmg!
melee strati is real!

[toxic patrol]

yeah like why does strati have base 12 everything

[wind gate]

sorry king u are right

[toxic patrol]

base 12 melee dmg hello

[glass cosmos]

strati is a relic of the past

[grave glade]

Idk if it's intended but it helps it be notoriously hard to roll

[glass cosmos]

i still love it tho 🥰

[grave glade]

Which works well as strati has been a status symbol for many years

[wind gate]

of being the worst air mythic

[toxic patrol]

looks at fantasia

5 42 rolls I believe

[grave glade]

Strati base DPS increase pls thankuuu

[wind gate]

is there even a build that sustains strati

[grave glade]

it doesn't need any identifications I love it the way it is
It's just rly low dmg

[toxic patrol]

probably not that hard with like conduit of spirit

[wind gate]

like archer sustain is so incredibly dog without spring/divzers huge base sustain

[grave glade]

Yea that's also something you have to factor in

And building mana sustain on air is kinda cooked ? I haven't tried

[toxic patrol]

there's some options

[red python]

remember when strati used to be a status symbol?

[toxic patrol]

conduit ephemeral/anaerobic

[grave glade]

Yea I bought one for 30 and sold it for 120

[toxic patrol]

strati is just a super old mythic

[toxic patrol]

and you used to not get a free 75 ws

[red python]

good shit top g

[wind gate]

yeah it is

[grave glade]

Thanks

[wind gate]

strati is even flawed as an offhand i need to take 1.4k damage minimum to use it

[toxic patrol]

lol yeah

[grave glade]

yea....

[native dew]

still is 😒
strapper my beloved

[glass cosmos]

of course

[wind gate]

ok well strati either sustains and deals no damage or deals damage and does not sustain (bolt)

[grave glade]

It's beautiful

[wind gate]

[6]

[glass cosmos]

legendary item

[grave glade]

That on 6 is crazy

[glass cosmos]

the very first max ws i believe

[grave glade]

Thank god they raised it to 99

[glass cosmos]

lmao

[glossy token]

The old game….

I think I was in deltas when this screenshot was taken

at some point

[brazen agate]

SIX BRACKET LMAO

[wind gate]

it was worth that much back in the day

[brazen agate]

rollable sp my beloved

[wind gate]

whats insane is someone getting 40stx to roll to [6]

[glass cosmos]

its 22 stx

[glass comet]

it's more like 20

[glass cosmos]

but it was a crazy amount back then

[wind gate]

oh aight

[wind gate]

wasnt like the only source of raw just lootrunning

and taking individual emeralds from a chest

[glass cosmos]

taking emeralds from chests and getting emeralsd from mobs yeah pr much

[wind gate]

without a pouch asw

[brazen agate]

old lootrunning did not gemerate emeralds for jackshit tho tbf, raw had much more value

[wind gate]

wait u also got raw from seavale reef

[brazen agate]

yes but seavale grinding is 💀💀😭

[wind gate]

ok but it was better back in the day in comparison to grinding mobs or lr

[toxic patrol]

just for the record you should not use me talking about strati for your attempt at market manipulation next time a mythic major id is announced

[wind gate]

bro i have 8 le

[toxic patrol]

maybe you do need seavale reef

[granite warren]

Today I will abuse CT comments to take advantage of player ignorance and price hike my Mythics to make a quick buck

[toxic patrol]

sorry I decided to be mean today

[lament iron]

what are your mythics

[glass cosmos]

im gonna buy up the strati market right now

[granite warren]

Do you actually want a list

[lament iron]

name one

[granite warren]

Gaia

[lament iron]

Huge Gaia buff coming in 2 weeks! stay tuned for more

[toxic patrol]

I'm just saying there's a far greater chance that it's not actually strati

[granite warren]

Ily for this. I'm screenshotting this so I can bait my friends I hope you know that 💀💀💀

[glass cosmos]

holy shit i need to buy all the gaias in the world immediately

ty lumi!!!!!!!!!

[lament iron]

!!! huge if true

[narrow sentinel]

Fr

[glass cosmos]

if a ct manager said so it must be true.. they would never lie to the playerbase surely

[native dew]

👀

[toxic patrol]

the incident

[shut plinth]

...

have you heard of our lord and saviour outer void

you might get bored to death tho

[narrow sentinel]

Outer void has a nice vibe to it, can't really explain it I just find it enjoyable

[shut plinth]

surely u add an mID to gaia

maybe some sort of hmelee quake mID?

[glass cosmos]

🤯

[wind gate]

i have 8 springs im trying to serll

[granite warren]

What if Gaia mID got buffed to do 10x more damage but had a range of 2 blocks

[lament iron]

new major ID, swaps your raw HP value for your raw mana value

[shut plinth]

how and why

[lament iron]

I should design items this shit ezpz

[steel zodiac]

gaia mid to enable tkw macros for 10s

[delicate wind]

this would be so scuffed...

[granite warren]

Next do trapper mID where dog just becomes Snake.io and it gets longer and longer the more mobs it kills

[wind gate]

i gambled them when they were in pool

[narrow sentinel]

that sounds like a Path of Exile thing lol

[brazen agate]

not the path of exile atree

no...

https://tenor.com/view/cat-thousand-yard-stare-thousand-yard-stare-cat-ptsd-cat-soldier-cat-war-gif-9110270742088459827

[humble spruce]

I agree with this. This is definately the thing to do with balance patches. I hate to use league of legends as an example, but the reason its been running for 15 years because of this. They have patches every month but they nerf the meta and simultaneous buff the weaker ones significantly so that they have a chance to be played that patch. But wynn heavy nerfs certain builds and archetypes but buff like +5 main attack damage for others

[slate nebula]

oh i was thinking more on the archetype level and in terms of archetype direction, but i guess it works also more broadly

[hasty aspen]

difference with LoL is that you don't have to take a week to use a new character

(I think?? I don't actually play LoL)

[toxic patrol]

league of legends is actually a pretty good comparison on both the dev side and community side

as in there's a lot of similarities and things we could take note of

[hasty aspen]

I don't think this community is gonna take it kindly of you saying them and LoL's community are very similar

[toxic patrol]

obviously not everyone but I think it's pretty undeniable that there are some similarities

[red steeple]

Outer void if development didnt get paused for fruma

(Where are our ov pouches)

[humble spruce]

Yep thats my point also. The reason why league’s monthly patches work is because once u buy the champion and it gets gutted, you just dont play. Nothing is lost. You pick it back up when its good. But wynn, you invest in game money to ur build. If it gets gutted, for some people that gg. Your whole bank account is gone.

For me as well, i only play one archetype and thankfully it hasnt been bombarded with neefd recently. But i will say that if it does, i will quit the game

Thats the sentiment for many others too. So we’re not just delusional when we say raid queues are longer and people are quitting, i know people actually are quitting and many late game people are leaving

Sorry for long ass text, but this community has to realize that the fact that posts like these being made and thousands of replies being put everyday is proof that many people still care and hope wynn to change for the better. I know it gets messy sometimes, but that is 10 times better than a discord server that is active with people every few days. It’s gonna come a time when people won’t even bother to post feedback and passionately discuss it. Please don’t let that happen 🥺

[wide eagle]

this may have been mentioned before (im not reading 1473 messages) but another reason as to why some people (including me) started playing less is because of the absurd lag i started getting after they released AS regional servers

[granite warren]

Yeah that too. And that's not even including annihilation-time server shitting itself haahah

[hybrid meteor]

Jarvis resume this

[heady matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/suggestion-box-gif-9789253898542238680

[grave glade]

Why are you so right

[humble spruce]

This is a pretty fucking active minecraft server, which is crazy and im thankful for it. but at this rate it's gonna go downhill. and im not trying to be negative. its just reality.

[grave glade]

Yea I've seen plenty of people become inactive stating these endless nerfs as a reason

It's not just the fact that good builds get nerfed because I agree that things should get nerfed but the way they nerf stuff is so bad imo. Like they almost entirely removed fallen from the game cuz it's so annoying to play now and warp users have to change and recraft their builds for the like 3rd time now

If they just nerfed base DPS a little bit it would achieve the same thing without being super annoying to players

[humble spruce]

yup. i wish we sort of get a guarentee that these nerfed builds will resurface and get compensation buffs in the future, like any moba game out there. so that the meta cycles through in a healthy way

its inevitable that certain builds/items will always be stronger than others. i wish the ct become more lenient towards those builds, especially cuz this is a PVE game.

[fervent dragon]

I just quit making builds all together, I cant be assed anymore with everything changing every 2 weeks. Im just using whatever is in the Sugo build guide thats good enough

[humble spruce]

and idk if these are just rumors or not but i heard that some ct members were reading off the feedback posts in a condescending way and saying womp womp. i wont say much cuz i didnt hear it myself, but if it's true that just fucking wild. some of yall taking this community for granted

[bright basin]

Some of the drop in players can be attributed to natural content drought. It is something that every MMO faces in between large updates/expansions.

However, the constant barrage of severe archetype or build-killing nerfs are making this worse than it should be. These nerfs also disproportionately affect players who would otherwise still be pretty dedicated to the game regardless of lack of new content

And those are the players that you want to keep long-term and the players that generate the most revenue

[drifting valve]

And I get yelled at every time I say buff morph

[red steeple]

Pls give morph +1 atkspeed

[warm dagger]

Give full morph a MID called it's morphin' time. What it does is it increase all skill to 150 for 10 seconds with 60s cd. Trigger for MID is saying it's morphin' time in chat. Triple duration if it was a /shout

P2w mid

[fervent dragon]

Oooh nice idea

[grave glade]

morph 4 life

[grave glade]

OMG this would be so fire

[gaunt bloom]

I like the idea of making each raid boss take—at minimum—1 minute to beat. That’s with super high end dps, as well. As a way to add that repeatable content that everyone loves grinding, I’m way more into the concept that forgery/something new gets made into the rewarding quick grind players really want. Because, currently, they nerf and balance what they have, constantly changing what was already made in preparation for something in the future—which will always remain vague—without actually compensating a huge portion of the player base with something else. I think the closest we got to adding repeatable, unique content during a nerf was outer void, and most people don’t do it too often since it’s such a contrasting sort of playstyle to what Wynn offers.

So, we end up with weaker versions of what players already strap themselves into for raid metas, and, as it becomes more difficult to grind the raids consistently, people just don’t find that quick reward/hyper optimization they were after. It’s why it’s so important to not compensate with more buffs—even new abilities—but to ensure that the stuff you want to be difficult and take time to complete can stay that way, while also providing an alternative. It’s a shame how close these nerfs are to fruma, since even a slight bit of jeopardizing to the release of fruma would break my heart to see.

[grave glade]

okay.

[drifting valve]

I don’t have the motivation to open wynn anymore, and even if I do I don’t optimize my builds because I know there gonna get nerfed in a week or 2

[brazen agate]

no... no... nononoNONONONO

[rare root]

boycott or something

[spring ravine]

remember this 🤣 🤣

[rare root]

they are masochists

[glossy token]

the message was written first but this doesn’t really apply as much to IMs

[spring ravine]

why do u still reply to my messages even tho u have me blocked LOL

dont know why u blocked me in the first place but pick a side man

[glossy token]

idk how to unblock

[atomic jackal]

I’d like to share my two cents on this matter.

Patches every two weeks should be a good thing, right?
That’s how I felt when I returned to Wynn a few months ago. I was excited and hyped for that moment every week when new changes would roll in, keeping the game fresh and giving me a reason to log in and try them out. It made the never-ending wait for Fruma a lot easier to handle.

But over just a few weeks, that excitement slowly turned into fear and mistrust.

Every two weeks, it felt like my builds—ones I had spent weeks farming and refining—could suddenly nerfed or rendered straight-up unplayable. Which made me lose the motivation to invest my time grinding for new items and builds.

And don’t get me wrong, if a nerf is necessary, go for it. But for the past couple of months, all I’ve seen are nerfs upon nerfs. Ever since the failed Acrobat rework, it feels like that’s all we've been getting.

When a game is well-balanced, you usually see minor adjustments, not abrupt 25% damage nerfs to entire builds (looking at Laby mid here). Those kinds of sudden decisions just don’t make sense.

The same goes for classes like Fallen. If it took so many nerfs, many of which also hurt its quality of life, just to "balance" it, then maybe the design of the archetype itself was flawed from the beginning.

And recently, with changes to items like Slayer, I genuinely wonder if the CT is even playing the same game we are. When some of them openly say they don’t use mythic builds or don’t play raids often, it just confirms my suspicions.

Most of my group has quit because of the issues listed above. But the worst part isn’t just the changes, it’s the stubborn attitude from the CT. They seem unwilling to consider that, like all of us, they’re human and that means they can be wrong sometimes.

[glossy token]

who has ever said they don’t use mythic builds or play raids what

[midnight wadi]

thats not two cents i aint be reading allat

[glossy token]

we just also use other builds but i can confirm we infact use raid bosses to test stuff more than anything else

your example of the laby nerf is also like. e. The most deserved single change out of anything

[atomic jackal]

Not trying to point at anybody but you asked me for an example

[severe vine]

i think he's joking

[glossy token]

this is half sarcasm

also no longer an IM (not because of this)

[spring ravine]

xavier also doesnt use mythics on main

i also talked to 2 anonymous cts a couple days ago and they said theres some sort of mythic prejudice on the item team soooo

[atomic jackal]

You know whats not sarcasm? Seq going for a level up every 3-4 days to it being + 7 days.

Going from a point where you have to let them know you are inactive for 2 weeks cause we are missing slots to being okay with me being afk until Fruma

Its a fact the playerbase is not happy about what is going on

[native pond]

super the streets are asking if you were the guy behind warp changes

[glossy token]

this is just not true

[glossy token]

we all are, we all look and approve these

[native pond]

so i should blame tealy in specific

[glossy token]

tealy is not an IM

[native pond]

close enough

[muted prawn]

Super we all know you guys buff and nerf based on the phase of the moon combined with current stock prices please stop pretending this isn’t verified information

[glossy token]

🔥

🎲

[lament iron]

I know I talked with you a couple days ago so idk if ur saying I'm one of those but that is straight up not what I said at all.

[muted prawn]

Anyway, hate to tell you guys but if CT want they can nerf EVERYTHING they want, it’s just the new balance level

If every class is brought down it’s basically a mob buff lol.

[lament iron]

I have my disagreements with the item changes, but a bias against mythics is just not a real thing

[spring ravine]

not u the other one said that

[glossy token]

If we had a bias against mythics they wouldn’t all be the best items in the game by definition they are on average the best

[native pond]

item team have you thought about epoch buff? its a good idea

[lament iron]

I think moreso they are just harder to balance and deal with, not that they are like BAD and should be removed

[spring ravine]

making the rarest items in the game be the best is the bare minimum lol, also so many mythic boots are terrible and not BIS so that point is invalid

[lament iron]

buff discoverer!

[atomic jackal]

If you share the same opinion on the changes, such as warp changes, don't you feel something is wrong? When so many people are complaining on the forums

[spring ravine]

yooo true give discoverer a major id that gives it 1lq for every 10lb it has

[glossy token]

they’re all at least quite but boots are a little different cause it’s not like we want every best build to have to use mythic boots

It would dictate building too much of that were true

they’re still all very powerful

[lament iron]

what boots do u think are terrible?

[red steeple]

Galleon

[lament iron]

ligit question

[spring ravine]

galleon resurgence, boreal and dawnbreak to an extent but atleast they have niches

[lament iron]

im not trying to do a gotcha

[spring ravine]

slayer after this change is also gonna suffer hard

[glossy token]

dawnbreak is not horrible

boreal is the single most not meta combination rn, not really its fault

Resu is also anti dps meta
Galleon I think we all know the issues

[native pond]

i forgot galleon's were a boot

[lament iron]

I thought they were boats

[native pond]

it is a boat

i hink its a guy too, hes got a graveyard

[hidden barn]

yea, any item with bad -hpr is horrid to play outside of non arcanist mage & shaman..

[hidden barn]

dbreaks only issue is hmelee being bad lol i think its fine personally

[spring ravine]

i think hpr just needs a rework like mr got tbh, having it be every 4 seconds and not just constant regen makes it really jank to use and also hard to balance

[red steeple]

Resu is just in a boring state suffering the wf tax

[native pond]

yeah if hpr wasnt so horrible it'd not be that bad

but losing -100 hp ever tick is just not playable for lootruns

[spring ravine]

just lootrun on lightbender 😂

[native pond]

no kill me before i use lightbender

[lament iron]

I respect you a lot

[hidden barn]

lootrun on riftwalker!

[hazy sail]

As someone’s played on wynn for like 10+ years on and off, I personally think the lack of new content holds it back the most, regardless of the state of the meta. People just need to accept that their builds will change as the game evolves (and diversify their holdings accordingly). Not saying every nerf/buff is a positive for the game, but it’s good that attempts to standardize everything are being made.

I think we’re also seeing decreased queue times given all raids are now considered worthwhile. I remember the game being in a similar state towards the end of 2.0 with really long queue times, and this was basically when 2.0 TNA was the only viable raid to do at endgame. If you take a similar number of players and split them across 4 different raids, the aggregate effect is that queue times for a single raid are going to be lower, especially as people drop to being bored/nerfs.

[spring ravine]

the problem with alot of nerfs they do is that theyre too severe and make builds straight up unusable

like for example 2 weeks ago fallen became unusable, now this patch warp/slayer builds become unusable unless you recraft your acces which 1. is a lot of money and 2. makes you lose a substantial amount of dps

oh wait nvm guys i forgot u can just use 30 potions a raid on fallen my bad

[hidden barn]

my issue with some of the nerfs (cough cough fallen) is that they COMPLETELY changed how the class is played, and made it alot less fun. not just that it got a dmg nerf into being non meta

[pearl zealot]

Here's a thing: diversifying holdings is really expensive

[red steeple]

aside of how ivory tusks didnt really get buffed its a cheap hpr ing to patch

Its more of nearly mandatory hpr tomes for mid warps

[pearl zealot]

Sure meta evolving is natural but drastic shifts every 2 weeks is just a little too much

[spring ravine]

if they did all the changes for fallen except the rally change it wouldve been rough but healthy, they just went over the top and we recieved 0 compensation buffs this patch which sucks

[pearl zealot]

Changes just feel rushed most of the time

[steel zodiac]

trickro mains go: first time

upper spam fans i mean ooops

[spring ravine]

absolutely; they couldve also done the rally change and added a node that healed you post corrupted based on damage dealt, and that wouldve been fine too

[red steeple]

Still hate how whirlwind isnt togglable

[pearl zealot]

Or just nerf it in a way so it's still viable by fallen

[hidden barn]

i cant wait for next major nerf to just make acolyte/riftwalker unfun to play instead of a dmg nerf 🔥

[spring ravine]

they alrdy made aco unfun to play because youre forced into sanguine strike and cant proc bleed if you dont have vfast+ attack speed 🔥

[red steeple]

Lmask moment

[hidden barn]

wait whats the as req to have perma bleed with sanguine

[red steeple]

That thing had to be in check lol

[spring ravine]

depends on if u have 3 or 5 beam

also its very different in practice because youre not gonna have perfect meleeing in a boss fight

this change also just kills pain cycle completely because you cant sustian bleed

[shy turtle]

I'm bordering on quitting myself and I don't even think Fruma can save this mess if I'm honest

[late flume]

I constantly builds for what i personally like and find fun to play. Ide like to think I have a decent idea on whats meta(or atleast usuable) in both crafted and non crafted builds even if i dont really follow it, but even i feel the effects of the constant nerfs.

Like ever since recent patch I honestly find myself just intrusively worrying about the pieces i want to build with getting hit. I literally cant get myself to actually put these builds together, my brain just tellls me that i shouldnt because the chance whatever i like will be gone in a short while.

Like me and my bullshit arent even the targets of the nerfs and im feeling it bad, cant imagine what yal meta chasing mfs are feeling

[shy turtle]

It's easy to get hyped and forget that the same people balancing the game now are also making Fruma content

If that's the general consensus and likely outcome, why even bother?

[severe vine]

people should be expected to make changes to build as game evolves yea but what kinda game evolves every 2 week bro 😭

like my build are not even getting that many changes or nerf but it still really discouraging to try anything new because why bother? ing get change and i'll have to spend money remaking new item?

[shy turtle]

New content really doesn't mean shit if you know as a fact that it will be handled in a frustrating manner by people who clearly don't trust their own community

[hidden barn]

placing my bets now that riftwalker is next on the chopping block (pls keep it fun atleast...)

[late flume]

i expect that too tbh

[red steeple]

To me the bleed change makes sense when you think about people asking for high effort rewarding dps

[spring ravine]

dps (damage per screenshot)

[raven herald]

only problem is what defines effort and high

does laby count as effort? does using a macro to spellspam count as effort?

[red steeple]

more clicks appearently

[shy turtle]

Laby is effort (gambling effort)

[raven herald]

is playing intless acolyte effort?

[red steeple]

laby makes more sense when tcc/annie isnt involved where you balance health and dmg to lure mobs in, eat hits unable to pot for dpsing but idk

Tho ye its absolutely on the lowest end of clicking efforts

[raven herald]

or is it just a giant CPS test that only the strong should have

[shy turtle]

Really, the "not playing until Fruma" thing is pure cope, it gives the message that you aren't really going to move away from the game if terrible decisions keep being make, and that these decisions don't have any real consequence because "oh, well, they're coming back for Fruma anyway, not a big deal"

[red steeple]

My biggest concern is how the cross region server connection issues seems to stay along with annie

Which is like, if we get that in fruma thats certainly getting people to leave

[shy turtle]

My only advice to the Wynn community is, don't threaten to leave, just... Leave

[severe vine]

Cross server aside nowadays if it hit 4pm na server just gain 30k ms

I don't even know what the issue

[late flume]

like ik its not fully controllable for ct nor reasonable to expect them to balance out their nerfs and buffs better.

But surely they see us players dropping like flies right? If even those of us who originally didnt care and choose to stay are feeling the effects of their nerfs, be it from 2nd hand stress or just getting hit in the crossfire thats obviously kinda bad.

Like building for "likelihood of dodging ct members sights" is literally a "stat" quite a few of us have started accounting for 😭

[severe vine]

It still fun but the fatigue is gaining in a lot of ppl tbh

Queue time for notg like longer now

[shy turtle]

It is fully controllable, changes aren't permanent and can be reverted if it antagonizes a significant portion of the active community

Not beyond their control, it's simply that they don't want to, they don't want to hear why that could be done, and are not open to being convinced

[late flume]

phrased badly, meant i dont expect them to fully get the consensus players have

[severe vine]

These changes that affect the archetype dps by a significant amount shouldn't happen every patch anyway

[shy turtle]

I do think Wynn is great too, but if every time ability tree or item balance gets messed with I have to start all over again, as a casual player, and that is becoming a undisputed norm, what does waiting for Fruma really accomplish?

[red steeple]

Im the opposite here, it needs to happen before fruma

[shy turtle]

What's the point of "leaving till Fruma" if you know the same will happen there

Really, just leave and come back when playing isn't frustrating again

[severe vine]

I don't disagree that it need to happen but it should be tested and happen all in a single patch

What they are doing now slowly feel like your class is next on the chopping block and really discouraging trying new build

[shy turtle]

Once again, the same people making Fruma are the ones making these changes, being hyped about something doesn't detract from the facts of how the server development works

I would LOVE to suggest otherwise, I really do love Wynncraft, but they won't listen, so why bother? Just leave

You all know what will happen, stop fooling yourselves

[chrome fable]

i do not feel like this, its more like they overbuff X and regret it some time after then decide to revert 50% of what they did (see poison)

[late flume]

ide likely feel better bout em if they came in bigger chunks too tbh. Or atleast it would help with the psychological aspects of it.

1 big bag is better than a constant stream of small bad

[red steeple]

Could just say at team had bad future plannings and were too slow to recruit new members, but we really dont have time assuming the align fruma on summer break

[chrome fable]

same thing is happening right now but basically just tomes

[severe vine]

It possible we feel different base on how long we've play too, I'm fairly new returning so I don't have resources to simply swap from one class to another. Which is making these nerf way more punishing

[chrome fable]

except this change doesnt really change that tomes are still necessary (which is the main issue)

[red steeple]

We have like atleast 4 more archetypes to semi or full rework till then lmao

uh someone add if i missed, rift bmonk sharp bolt

[severe vine]

But to ppl who love these archetype, I can't imagine it feeling good when these patches happen

[severe vine]

Yea it gonna be hard not to feel bad as if the team is nerfing every week when really it only 1 At a time

[late flume]

lowkey the poison buff/nerf kinda felt like they wanted to get rid of the 7 toxos strat with lesser resistance

though thats just how it feels. I highly doubt we'd ever know if it were the case or not cus no one remotely sane would admit to such

[red steeple]

Or not even toxo but with lower leveled weapons but yeah

[severe vine]

That buff and then nerf really were confusing lmao

[red steeple]

Overbuffed, probs new im members

[severe vine]

Is it even overbuffed?

[red steeple]

To me poisons a tool to kill shitters somewhat reliably on map, not bosses so

in terms of that ye

If we put it to raid standards its a different story

[late flume]

no i meant prior to poison buff people would occasionally(rarely ive probably only met 2 users) run 7 of the same poison weap so they can stack poison using all 7 of their weapons. wasnt all that powerful of a strat, all that poison investment made them atleast mildly crippled in some other way

[severe vine]

tbf shitters mob is so easy to kill, only the boss matter

[red steeple]

yeah ik its the juggling

[red steeple]

And to the team the boss probs wasnt the target to poison kill idk

at endgame we have quite a fkton of spammable spells but for most till then, things arnt so spammable

Then poison starts being fairly large at clearing hoards with minimal effort

Thats about where i assume it was balanced off

[granite nebula]

my biggest problem with the patches is when they just kill qol (fallen)

rally nerfs just makes the class feel completely terrible to play with catamaran

[chrome fable]

they did admit it was a premature change, hope we get a fix soon

[granite nebula]

thats what pissed me off

why release it and give us no option other than pot chugging or sitting there cycling charge for 3 minutes per hp bar

[native pond]

nothing ever changes.....

[humble spruce]

Yea qol nerfs are completely useless cuz fallens just end up drinking pots

So whats the point? Nothing chnaged

[chrome fable]

(or doing /class and play something comfy)

[humble spruce]

Its just hella inconvenient now

[iron patio]

tbh catamaran shouldnt have gotten rally anyways so im fine with it being shit, but rots being shit as well is kind of annoying

atp; js make rally a team heal only and either give fallen better healing or make me use my stupid insignia bbath apoc offhans build

[proven matrix]

Some of these nerfs just werent handled well

[dreamy gulch]

I went to sleep with this thread having 200~ messages...
Wow
ngl I didn't expect it to even get close to 600 let alone 1600
I tried reading some of the stuff but ofc I couldn't read most at all

[iron patio]

demure and mindful threrad fr

[dreamy gulch]

One point that I hope it got its fair share in the discussion is how people think of CT simply as nerfing machines, leaving a lot of the player base dread every changelog announcement and such

[wheat goblet]

i didnt even realize until i checked for myself but it’s shockingly true

people are so much less incentivized to play the game because of the way balance is being treated

it’s a brutal player experience

[dreamy gulch]

And also I would like to sincerely thank all CT and players that shared in this being a wonderful and productive discussion
I was honestly scared that this thread was going to just be glossed over with no real change or attempt but yeah even the small part I read helped me realize that wasn't the case

[fickle bay]

Can I know where I can see that?

[wheat goblet]

i can send an invite 1 sec

[austere willow]

Well ofc we wanted to get rid of that bug thats definitely not a secret

and that bug was the only thing preventing a poison buff which is why they coincided

[severe vine]

it is pretty bad in notg at least, before it almost instant unless it was super late at night

and now the queue is slightly worse ( not very long still thank god) but most of the time it low level and not max or close

which make sense ig, when i was around 750 run of notg it was mostly warp arc, fallen war

the 2 guys that use to consistently queue them late at night also gone

[shy turtle]

Not only queue times are longer, but I legit had experiences where I draw the same pfinder party twice, and two of the same guys on the very next raid

[solid dust]

imo i find notg very boring but tna fun but my mage build for tna is getting hit very hard this coming update so idk how to feel abt that 🥀

[shy turtle]

Meaning that, at that time, only 4-5 people were queueing up pfinder

[solid dust]

lr simulator

[shy turtle]

Sucks for them because I was running Wanderer's Purpose on TCC LMFAO

[severe vine]

yea like after the warrior nerf ( not saying it related) i got 3 same party of low level in a row, mostly same ppl

and all raid failed 😭

i just stop queuing raid nowaday

[tranquil cipher]

not for the damage or overhealth?

'free'

mana cost, 45% dmg loss and bleed doesnt do anything meaningful rn

[spring ravine]

yeah bleed/tether do negligible damage unless u run pain cycle, which is unusable now after the sorrow change

idk why you guys cant just make sorrow apply .2 or .25 bleed per hit instead of .5 or 0 like its going to be

and if you want people to use flaming tongue to give bleed then bleed needs to be worthwhile outside of 1 niche MID

[tranquil cipher]

and like whats the point of applying extra bleed when there is already a cap of 9s + damage is limited (u cant proc the bleed early or anything)

[hasty aspen]

then why are people even complaining if bleed is apparently meaningless?

[tranquil cipher]

not meaningful != meaningless
it still contributes to your damage and some blood generation but its no where near enough to be desirable to the point of sacking ur mana sustain and 45% damage from mask

[hasty aspen]

then use mask

[spring ravine]

because its still nice to have? extra damage is extra damage

and as an oly player bleed is especially important because u use pain cycle

also bleeding enemies still give u blood pool so losing that is a big qol L

[hasty aspen]

damage or QOL, your choosing

and ofc there's also sanguine strike, but I don't use it so idk how good of a bleed applicator it is

[tranquil cipher]

forces tier its cringe af

[hasty aspen]

that one's fair enough

[main oracle]

Idk how it hasnt happened already

Hasnt nirv just been like insane

[glass comet]

obli is better

and weath is fine too just that the mID could have some changes

[short arrow]

i wish weathered major id was that it brought back old assassin flight

entirely bias because i have weathered and old assassin flight was really really fun but

[glass comet]

why not on Hana then

[smoky orchid]

that doesnt mean i dont test mythics, either. just refuting this point- when i test content like dungeons or raids i try to account for low-power players and so avoid meta builds or mythics. however while i was still IM i absolutely did test mythics to see how they felt and played. taking that out of context and acting like im still an IM makes this look way worse than it is

[austere willow]

if bleed did nothing then people wouldnt care about sorrow bleed getting removed. And yes most things cost mana and the damage loss was kinda my whole point

[main oracle]

Obli has lost enough, it was the coolest item in the game pre 2.0

[glass comet]

? that's like saying warp has lost enough and doesn't need a nerf

[main oracle]

It was a joke, but lowkey give it a major id that makes mana trigger every 5 seconds again and gives vanish no cd fr

[fervent dragon]

well it doesnt

[solid dust]

i want weathered to be cool again 🥀

or like, good for shadestepper prolly cuz rn like everything outclasses it

[spring ravine]

Warp is overrated as fuck, 24.5k meteors meanwhile fatal hits 38k and quetz is 31.5k

[glass comet]

wow I'm sure people play warp for the damage

[spring ravine]

Hopefully terminated or the ims don’t see this cause next they’ll be going after those 2 🥶

[solid dust]

considering they just replied, they prolly will

[spring ravine]

I mean they kinda do? Quetz can hit very high ws

[glass comet]

not nearly as high as warp and you'll be like 60 agi lower

[spring ravine]

Just don’t get hit

[tranquil cipher]

Ehp

[solid dust]

truly what an argument

[main oracle]

Why didnt I think of this!

[tranquil cipher]

Warp is used bc it’s braindead once built, u can tank some hits, solid dmg, insane ws

[smoky orchid]

to be fair people love to take my statements out of context like this cause im such a huge scapegoat even still, and it isnt as if yall dont have a point with other stuff, but taking statements like that out of context and then using them as proof we dont care makes it look like catastrophizing

[spring ravine]

I don’t even play warp much so I’m not biased, and I don’t think it needs a damage or hpr nerf

[tranquil cipher]

Ppls issue is that sorrow is already a weak node

[smoky orchid]

dammit the reply didnt reply again, that was to this message

[tranquil cipher]

Also requiring tier for ur archetype to function is super strange

[spring ravine]

^^^^

[austere willow]

Can we just not with the bad attitude, there's been so many productive discussions here

[smoky orchid]

^

[spring ravine]

Oh wait just run no mask and flaming tongue! Problem solved

[tranquil cipher]

Me after upping my mr req by 30 (gutting my damage) and losing 45% dmg from mask on top of that!!!

[spring ravine]

Sowwy 🥺

[solid dust]

was trickster rework before fruma or after

[austere willow]

There's been many productive discussions about this specific issue that there's no point in rehashing now, it's available if you scroll up to this morning when sugo and I and Super were talking here

[spring ravine]

I will refrain from being too negative sorry guys

[tranquil cipher]

I think u should nerf shaman back into the ground it’s kinda sad seeing other ppl play it

[smoky orchid]

i think its pretty clear at this point that AT is well aware of masks interfering with other stuff in an overcentralizing way, its just that fixing that essentially requires a complete rewrite of ritualist which is a very big ask, and there's not much that can be done as a stopgap either, so that opportunity cost is unfortunately likely to remain

at least for a while, anyway

[vital edge]

yeah kinda why i wanted to refrain from the discussion as #1 masks hater cuz ik its basically just about waiting for ritu rework, its no secret that masks arent healthy

[austere willow]

Lex already said we are considering the temporary reinstatement of some bleed duration to sorrow but I will say that I don't think it should stay on sorrow indefinitely

But I said earlier I will 100% appreciate that it creates an unfortunate scenario

It just really really sucks that neither haunting memory or flaming tongue is used by aco players lol

[spring ravine]

.2 bleed per sorrow hit seems fine, you gotta hit every single tick to maintain bleed

[tranquil cipher]

Haunting memory needs a massive buff

[spring ravine]

Adds some skill to the ability yknow

[main oracle]

Yeah I always thought masks should like entirely change your spells

[tranquil cipher]

Haunting memory is a direct nerf to urself (u lose 2AP, when u debuff the enemy it doesn’t even debuff bc it’s the same damage amp as EC [weaker too XD]and u also lose mask effect at the same time)

[smoky orchid]

citing the fact nothings been done about that as a reason that CT doesnt care despite the fact this conversation has been had so many times in the past and always boiled down to "to change masks we need to change ritualist but ritualist is masks which means rewriting a third of the shaman tree which will take ages" is also not a good look

[main oracle]

I do have a bit of experience with stance switching characters, but you wouldnt know about that i dont think @vital edge

[tranquil cipher]

Giving haunting memory a tiny bit of bleed application doesn’t change anything bc the downside of like 6 AP is never gonna be worth it

[tranquil cipher]

Masks are cool it’s just ritualist is neglected bc of them

[iron patio]

yeah ritualist on its own feels the most like 1.20 shaman but cooler, which is a good and bad thing
js sucks how summoner/aco beenfits the most from it

[vital edge]

the idea of like adaptability like that is a cool concept but it has just turned into “spec into lunatic for free dmg”

[austere willow]

Well EC can't really be brought into this equation because the weaken effect is "for ritualist"

But yeah I understand

[main oracle]

I think aco feels enough like old shaman to where they could go crazy with the masks giving you entirely different spells based on different areas of combat and there would still be a good option for those who miss old shaman

Honestly I might even argue that aco (maybe minus ecall and like bs obv) is closer to old shaman than shade is to old assassin

Well idk, but I think theyre at least comparable

[spring ravine]

I miss old weathered man

[solid dust]

I forgot what they changed, I used to run oblivion acrobat only cuz weathered was hella expensive 🥀

I just know that it’s qol is very nice for shade but it’s hard to actually use it effectively

Very mana steal heavy but if ur gunna do mana steal might as well just play oblivion for more dmg and mana steal

[glass comet]

they should just like doubled weathereds ws

[solid dust]

The warp of assassin

[glass comet]

make it the warp of assassin

[spring ravine]

Pre 2.0 u could perma invis

[solid dust]

oh yea I heard abt that

idk I don’t really like shade as it is rn

[main oracle]

I think weathered should lean more into acrobat tbh, I think it just makes the most sense thematically, no other archetype is as air focused as acro

[proven matrix]

No

The mid screams shade

[solid dust]

Acro has its air weapon: hanafubuki it’s just that it’s annoying to get

weathered is a shade weapon tho yea

[glass comet]

no

[solid dust]

Make weathered sslow

[tranquil cipher]

air = tier element

[tired cape]

or we can just heavily nerf lunatic mask
Fr tho why are we destroying playstyles before the fix or stat budget is fixed for the intended replacement abilities/playstyles

[tranquil cipher]

what a wonderful idea nerf the worst archetype in the game even more 🔥

[tired cape]

What can I say, im a mastermind

[timid karma]

Nerf bmonk.

[tranquil cipher]

🤫 ritualist my goat #1 at benig the least used in every raid 🔥

[timid karma]

I have never Seen someone play ritulist in any raid

i dont even know what exactly a ritulist does

[dreamy gulch]

why da actual hecc is lb always at no.1 except for notg (no.2)

[timid karma]

cheap and ez to play

[dreamy gulch]

fair enough

[tranquil cipher]

winded is broken fort is strong

[timid karma]

That too

[tired cape]

And everything else got nerfed, born to literally anything but mage, forced to lb

[polar widget]

If the changes for slayer go live I’m probably going to take an extended break lol, my fatal build took like a month to grind for just for it to be unplayable in 2 weeks xd

[timid karma]

the Slayer changes were justified trust me

[polar widget]

0/37 ragebait

[timid karma]

fr

[tranquil cipher]

slayer did deserve a nerf

the way they did it is strange tho

[red steeple]

Slayer needed a nerf in power but also reqs to make it more usable but bleh

[polar widget]

Nerf like 3rd spell cost or smth not the one stat that messing with causes builds to die

[proven matrix]

Did it really

[polar widget]

Idk if someone really hates hpr cancelling but there are also way more egregious things to hit with the “”balance”” hammer

[red steeple]

-5dex -5req 🙏

[chrome fable]

fast hybrid majorid 🤤

[tranquil cipher]

gave way too much sustain so ppl literally just perma slapped it 😔 -costs are just way too disgusting in general

[main oracle]

yeah I do wonder if there are ims that think weapons should play with a considerable amount of -hpr and from what I've seen people go to great lengths to avoid it no matter what unless it's like for fortitude or some shit

[shut plinth]

its one of the few mythic items that feel mythic power level i would rather keep as is

[tranquil cipher]

on other items ur actually losing damage for building any meaningful sustain (theres like no great mr options anymore) but with slayer it for some reason gives 20sp whilst having low general reqs

[red steeple]

Best part was that most people who see it will not afford the wynnbuilder perfect slayer and can get outdone by other items as they buy shit rolls

[raven herald]

i thought slayer was underpowered tbh

never saw it as a competitive option
guess i was mega wrong

[red steeple]

A perfect slayer is absolutely strong, the hybrid portion of it is failing atm but aside of that

[chrome fable]

its really competitive because rolls + tomes

[red steeple]

But most peeps are getting slayers less powerful than hephs 36

[tranquil cipher]

yea 💀

[chrome fable]

same issue with warp really, roll hell, tome reliance

[tranquil cipher]

hephs are ass tho (-30str -30int and only 25ws)

[red steeple]

Eh intless strcancel heph is pretty fine for budget uses

rbc variants atleast

[tranquil cipher]

slayer gave 39%, 20dex, 35ws (and that +1tier 🤤 )

[red steeple]

is like 2-3k less than slayer and isnt fucking you with hpr

and gives you a fat ls instead which is qol

[iron patio]

The only reason I can think of to use ritualist was for tstack/cstack on shaman
But now the other two archetypes have good melee nodes so it doesn't even get used for tha 😭

[iron patio]

Tbh never heard of heph str canceling before this patch but it sounds pretty fire
Could also js use flashing boots my beloved tho for other costs

[native pond]

what mod is this

[smoky orchid]

hey look, #📫noticeboard

[short arrow]

i didnt realize omnia mors was a weapon ngl

lul

[polar widget]

Mashallah the ct actually listened

[iron patio]

Wtf post jumpscar

[dull locust]

ct making the game worse again

[iron patio]

Items

[late flume]

Trance is looking increasingly funny

[tranquil cipher]

How are u gonna stack

Trance is fundamentally flawed being TF with no cost reduction + sfast impossible tierdrop and increased winded cd

U start using 1 gust/s and ur still unable to stack even close to how fast u need to be remotely competitive

[severe vine]

you build less into spell and more melee

[dull locust]

tierdrop on trance im ded

[toxic patrol]

im pretty sure you should play trance without timelocked still

[severe vine]

ty im and at you cooked that notice

[toxic patrol]

just added compatibility so if you decide to play it WRONG its not as poop

[severe vine]

WHAT, mean calling lb wrong

[jolly drift]

guys BONGUS' opinion does NOT REFLECT the opininos of the ITEM TEAM

[dull locust]

bogus

[severe vine]

wait is anything else changes along with the cap being raise 💀 doesnt that just mean even higher dmg buff

[wind gate]

oh my days ct is so goated

[tranquil cipher]

He reflects opinions of all IMs

[wind gate]

one day there WILL be meaningful and positive archer changes 😛😛

[tranquil cipher]

180s timelock about to last the entire raid 🥀 until we hit NoL

[severe vine]

boss gon die before it hit 10 timelock lmao

[tranquil cipher]

Yea focus removal and removing penta shot

[severe vine]

it still a nice change for the rift trancer

[late flume]

bad phrasing again.
I meant i find it funny that theyre further encouraging these carpet spamming abominations

[tranquil cipher]

Yea I just really don’t understand what they want trance to do

It’s Ids /mid are all over the place

[dull locust]

they want it to fixate

[late flume]

One of these days some bozos are gonna run max ice aspect bullshittery trance to annie and it will be glorious(rip server)

[severe vine]

💀

[tranquil cipher]

Good idea I’ll build TWF 4x snake meteor arcanist trance

[smoky orchid]

50 person EO? more like anniepopsicle

[severe vine]

it unfortunately really good on lb cause lb melee so much

[dreamy gulch]

Ggs
Im really happy things actually got officially addressed
a solid step towards the right path :D

[late flume]

isnt ice snake spamming to stack winded way more viable than meleeing now no?

[severe vine]

i dont know regarding that i only play lb

[tranquil cipher]

Yes how would playing lb be different… lament is the only usable weapon for that reason

[severe vine]

it might be yea

[tranquil cipher]

So it appears aco changes going through
Fallen change looks very nice

[severe vine]

cause on moving mob it more than likely to miss, melee is a lot more consistent

[glass comet]

yes

[glass comet]

warp is still good for lb

[late flume]

seen some of the riftwalker shenanigans people have been slapping together. its uhh interesting to say the least

constant timelocking and icesnaking

[tranquil cipher]

https://tenor.com/view/copium-meme-pepe-frog-gif-26117735

[severe vine]

plus also trance build still have a lot of mana steal mostly, it could kinda spam snake

[tranquil cipher]

Nice costs

[late flume]

have u seen the carpets of snakes people spam

[tranquil cipher]

Nice def req

[late flume]

cus everything hit by ur snakes gets +3 winded

[tranquil cipher]

Nice +13 tier sfast base

[proven matrix]

Good changes ct

[severe vine]

i never said it'll compete with lament snake spam bruh

[tranquil cipher]

Trance is designed to not be able to snake spam well

[late flume]

[severe vine]

dmg still like 280k avg it not that bad

[tranquil cipher]

Spring bolt dps 😭

[late flume]

may it stay that way cus it will not be fun for everyone else if someone makes it work well

[severe vine]

idk what you want, it lb

dmg gonna be regardless

[tranquil cipher]

That also requires stacking winded/lw trance actual dps is closer to 100-200k bc every enemy dies instantly

[severe vine]

100k is the base dps... with melee

idk tho

[tranquil cipher]

Can u stack winded on ragni ball

[toxic patrol]

it has like 2k hp you are getting 2 hits on it but also i think you cant stack on passive mobs

oh you can

[gleaming frost]

we used to pray for times like these

[tranquil cipher]

Forbidden diffusion abuse fr

[solid dust]

ty ims ily for feedback listening

[hasty aspen]

🙏

shoutout to devs-players communication fr

[grave glade]

@austere willow I ❤️ u I'm sorry for what I said ❤️❤️

I'm sorry for accusing u of not caring. You're doing the best that you can and I appreciate that

[hasty aspen]

🥴

[grave glade]

Love everyone ❤️❤️❤️

[tranquil cipher]

Spread love and positivity 😇

[austere willow]

no worries