2cc Trains (Revival) Dev thread

[digital tapir]

opened

although I think that in this case these would be single leaf, not double

[uncut hazel]

Yes, but no. I get the idea of overlays but that'd not only require rewriting the whole set's coding but also a lot of re-designing templates too. I'm very super-un-keen (un-super-keen??) on having one-offs and even this one is a bit borderline.

[digital tapir]

ok, so just leave the sprites as it is

[uncut hazel]

Also jumping a topic or two to roles, if yourselves can come up with a ruleset that can be applied across the board i can amend the current rules. I think they were initially designed rather adhoc-ly.

In the meantime I'll add in those 3 vehicles you made 🙂

[digital tapir]

thanks a lot!

I have more to make!

[uncut hazel]

Right, added
ACME Corp. HS001
ACME Corp. HS002
ACME Corp. V200D DMU
ACME Corp. V200E EMU
ACME Corp. DD CargoEMU
VEB LKM V180
PESA 43WE 'DART'
LEW EL2

Also patched the NSWG71

Not yet on github but grf -> https://drive.google.com/file/d/15M6hdWmnYQWlgP0Xh-UZbEimmLge4TZk/view?usp=drive_link

[uncut hazel]

btw going back to 3rd Reich and flags...Gemini's suggestions

Option 1: The Modified War Flag (The Video Game Standard)
The most common solution—especially for military vehicles like warships—is to use the exact layout of the Reichskriegsflagge (the German National War Flag of WWII) but replace the central swastika with an Iron Cross.

The Design: A bright red field with a black-and-white Nordic cross extending to the edges. In the center is a white circle, but instead of the swastika, a black Iron Cross fills the disc. A smaller, classic 1813-style Imperial Iron Cross sits in the top-left corner (the canton).

Why it works: Because the red background and bold black-and-white cross layout are unique to the 1935–1945 regime, it cannot be confused with any other era of German history. It perfectly dates the vehicle to WWII without violating anti-hate-speech laws.

Option2 wasn't relevant (military stuff)
Option3 the current tricolour.

Also

A Quick Historical Clarification:
While symbols like the Iron Cross are heavily associated with WWII in the popular imagination, they are technically not Nazi symbols. The Iron Cross has been Germany’s military decoration since 1813 (the Napoleonic Wars) and remains the official emblem of the modern German military (Bundeswehr) today. This is why using the Iron Cross as a placeholder is legally permitted in countries with strict anti-extremism laws, like Germany.

@obsidian hornet fyi on the above as you were part of the discussion on this the other day.

[obsidian hornet]

I don’t care what an AI says

[uncut hazel]

Each to their own.

[digital tapir]

One more crappy sprite dump this time the multi-regional edition

Pafawag 201E is an 3kV DC electric loco which saw service in Poland and Morocco
Nohab AA16 needs no introducement, swedish EMD licence. To be used in all european regions. Can it be on this template? Only the top line will be used

V100 german road switcher. This is the East German version that was also exported to CzechoSlovakia and to People's Republic of China

[uncut hazel]

hey, thanks. yeah the template is ok. i saved it without the extras and changed the purchase because it's not an articulated thing. but otherwise ok.
i'll do a build in a bit and then update the grf linked above.

[digital tapir]

Also, I found a couple more locos to be renamed to keep the scheme consistant and nice-looking

[digital tapir]

theorethically E8 isnt arcticulated too in this set

it can operate as single section

[uncut hazel]

ahh. i didn't read the template properly. then no, it's a 01A. I'll move it. 🙂

(as in 01A is the default nothing-special)

[digital tapir]

Also, what we do with the flags/countries?

In terms of locos used in various countries manufacturer's country would be better...

Buuuuuut what about export-specyfic models....

oh, and I forgot about changing the headlights to tail lights on one of the views of the V100, but it is easy job to change!

[uncut hazel]

I think for export models if we can find one particular country then we can use that (even if they were exported many places.) maybe 😄

[digital tapir]

maybe halves of flags of the manufacturer and the user?

or manufacturer and the UN if exported to various countries?

[uncut hazel]

🔫 😄

on a more serious note ref half-flags. one is that for each of those we'd need to make a new flag. that's tedious. the other is that countries are badges now so we'd need to define a whole lot of those too.

[digital tapir]

Maybe just leave as it is for now

[uncut hazel]

I agree with what you deleted 😉

[digital tapir]

Everybody agrees

[uncut hazel]

I actually have a longplay map on youtube with some 5000ish industries that I'm around 100 episodes into, i recently hotswapped the old 2cc set to this one with a bit of manual work, i'll record an ep soon with the new things and prob share the link here when it becomes public (some more days as i still have videos queued for release before that)

grf link above updated with your additions.

[digital tapir]

wait, you have an YTchannel?

[uncut hazel]

yeah i do 😉 - it's just not advertised much [at all]

https://www.youtube.com/@NViktor/playlists
some older playlists are unrelated.

if you ever go through the many videos you'll find at some point me starting to bitch about no new vehicles in 2cc and then eventually getting to the point of "fk this i'll just do it myself." 😄

btw i do swear quite every so often.

[digital tapir]

Also, I have an suggestion

As the F and E units can operate in forms of single sections

the soviet 2TEXXX diesel locos should be able to do that too, as these can do that IRL and it is used in normal revenue service

In Polish ET41 also each section can operate independently, but to my knowladge this was never used in normal service (only to move sections around depot)

But in ET40 this was used (but it is an whole other loco, Skoda imported from Czechoslovakia)

[uncut hazel]

I could add those i guess.
I'm still tempted to make USSR items actually have USSR flags. My bigger problem is the rest of the world. Ie I know stuff about the wider European history, in terms of okay there was USSR and YU and various versions of Germany etc but obviously history isn't limited to Europe itself and there were many colonial changes in Africa, which I know nothing about. So some of the African items' countries' would need to be looked at by someone familiar with the region.

[digital tapir]

Adding Mandzhuria flags to Mantetsu stuff would be very controversial...

[uncut hazel]

Meh. Me no like history being complicated :/ 😄

[digital tapir]

Although trains are only meccanical devices.
Civlian ones

(thay are not an weapon per se)

[digital tapir]

Antonio Badoni Lecco 'Sogliole' 207 - add africa region
GE 44-ton switcher 17938 - raname to GE 44-ton switcher? Is 17938 the specyfication/variant?
Valmet / Lokomo 2200-2241 'Dr12' - rename to Valmet/Lokomo Dr12

Vagonka Studenka 814 - wrong intro date. This is an reconstruction of older 810 series (aka M 152.0) from 70s,80s, done in 2000s

[uncut hazel]

noted the above, thanks.
i started incorporating the set a little into my big map thing, the one that will eventually be on youtube. made some minor changes for playability (mostly that the maglev wagons' speeds have been slightly bumped to 180kmh.) -- what is the real-life highspeed freight speed nowadays? I know there are no real maglev freight vehicles but just asking.

[digital tapir]

Generally whan there is numbering in the train's names, in most of circumstances, we should not include the whole range, but either the lowest running numeber (or, lowest running number -1 if the numbering starts with 1, not with 0), or the 2 or 3 first digits of the numbering range, depanding on the railway and country

Although not always numbering starts at an nice number

oh, and rename the ALCO 4-8-8-4 'Big Boy'
to
ALCO series 4000 4-8-8-4 'Big Boy'

Big Boy was not an official name

[uncut hazel]

in a lot of cases the numbers like 17938 were serial numbers.

[digital tapir]

In one of the books I have this loco is refered ONLY as series 4000

[digital tapir]

aaaaaahhhhh

but these are MANUFACTURER's internal numbers, and likely are given from one pool to all locos ever build by some manufacturer

These are very rarely used, and are more like the VINs of cars

I think that in (nearly?) all cases we should delate these

[uncut hazel]

possibly yes, except for old steam ones that didn't otherwise have proper classifications

[digital tapir]

In the early days of railroading the technology was advancing rapidly, and many new designs had to be tried, thus almost every loco was diffrenty

[uncut hazel]

eg this one is marked as Henschel & Sohn 6301-6322 in the excel file

so even if this was numbered by NS themselves but there is no easy way to otherwise identify the items in question from a manucaturer's pov...there's no "class" or anythign similar

[digital tapir]

Henschel & Sohn series 6300 would sound a lot better

[uncut hazel]

here's a tricky one then
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_1600_(stoomlocomotief)
currently Sharp Stewart 3557-3565
datasheet

because at the time of manuf, it wasn't yet NS and it wasn't yet series 1600.

[digital tapir]

at least the OG owners numbering starts at an nice number

100 series

[uncut hazel]

Could do.
Tbh my other reason for keeping those numbers in, espc for old steam engines is that users don't necessarily have access to the grf file data, so while the source of info is somplace in there (but only on github and somewhat hidden), it's not quite avialabe per se. so if someone searches Sharp Stewart series 100 online, they prob won't find anything whereas s.s. 3557-3565 would give them results, perhaps

so i still think keep the steam engine numbers as-were and remove the serial ids for newer items

How do we add extra text to show on the purchase panel?

Like string values, not roles

ah, found it.

[uncut hazel]

added 'data' to the purchase panel, though on second thought, it doesn't look as useful as i expected.

espc for the UTF character'd ones

[restive bobcat]

No point if it's not clickable

[digital tapir]

Would it be possible to have, in the current templates an diesel MU with one of the middle coaches diffrent?

Becouse I thought that an diesel version of the Flirt would be easy to make, but it has an seprate machineroom car

https://gallery.balticrailpics.net/albums/userpics/normal_Stadler_Flirt_DMU_21-22_04_2014__017.jpg

[uncut hazel]

I'm not at home today but there's one template with different power car (as in powered unpowered) designs, I think you can probably use that?
Templates are actually in the templates folder, they're mostly PSD files tho

[digital tapir]

TPL_02E like the one used in the fictional dutch high speed train would make sense?

https://github.com/nemethviktor/2ccts_revival/blob/master/gfx/Templates/TPL_02F.psd

[uncut hazel]

02D maybe? I'm on my phone so I can't see the psd files too well.

[uncut hazel]

Alternatively 02E (not F) might be an option

[digital tapir]

I think that I will use E, so always at least one machineroom car will be present

It will not be super realistic, but this would be as good as we can get

IRL the machineroom car is shorter than the passenger cars

[uncut hazel]

I'm unsure it accounts for wagon lengths properly though, I think at the moment it assumes all are the same length

If you can fake it to be same as others that would probably be great 😉

[digital tapir]

I will use all the same lenght

[digital tapir]

Some more really poor sprites

Diesel Stadler flirt and 2 polish diesel locomotives that were exported to Africa (6D to Morroco and 301D to Leaban)

https://plikimpi.krakow.pl/zalacznik/316305/4.jpg

[uncut hazel]

Thanks. I'll add them tomorrow most likely as I'm in the office today

I was playing on my other map which is supposed to be south America and one of the things distinctly missing from there are more beefy engines. The best there is is the Nohab AA that was added the other day and it's still pretty puny compared to the other regions' freight ones.
If you're in the mood to research and add something, any time..... 😉

[digital tapir]

You mean AA16?

[uncut hazel]

Yup

[digital tapir]

to my knowladge this type was not exported to south america

it was exported to various countries all over europe

[uncut hazel]

Ah. I think it was marked as all region but I'll amend then

Which makes things even worse for SA region 😂

[digital tapir]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc5UByhcq4w

This would be sweet

likely we would modyfy some JP+ sprites

Mitsubishi-Hitatch 1000 series

exported to Bolivia

[restive bobcat]

Ah yes that thing

[digital tapir]

there was also very similer 900 series

[restive bobcat]

Could easily modify an EF64 into that

[uncut hazel]

Btw I'll be off from mid July for 3-4 weeks with likely no discord access (or very little). Just a heads up.

[digital tapir]

Also, EMD type SW1001 was exported to Morroco

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ne/Morocco/diesel/DI500/ONCF_DI-515_Rabat_Agdal.jpg

Thair stock is interesting

Where else Polish, French, Japanese, British and American things could met?

[digital tapir]

also, if You need something electric for african region

https://scontent-waw2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/476828905_3536266829844162_5349673886654931485_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_tt6&cstp=mx1380x934&ctp=s1380x934&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=bd9a62&_nc_ohc=hZ-DlOT93UMQ7kNvwFOuAu4&_nc_oc=AdoflC0gWLlqV3tebv6Vu_7bV6hffFsG6DMX-qB-VHiJJdKMJU33KDRUmHGpHAplk4nSLIKH5KDKfIFl3NhXuZa8&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-waw2-1.xx&_nc_gid=cdZFfNqMUA8Y1bIda0oI4g&_nc_ss=7b289&oh=00_Af9KBPKSFyEh8p1qhqPoAWVjvjOSyXCLmqJUqDXh8CH-eA&oe=6A39D9D3

https://scontent-waw2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/476459766_3536266889844156_5242380629653649097_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_tt6&cstp=mx1958x1200&ctp=s1958x1200&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=bd9a62&_nc_ohc=arg6oVBwoWAQ7kNvwHPxFcv&_nc_oc=AdrObrXo_bMwr2hpQJGy-j8xuI2yJGj185cvGkDaNikCaBQg41ob07fCcb46Ld1kFy5JIzNwBOq6HjxhVpLBxU5z&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-waw2-1.xx&_nc_gid=WPJ73N38iHrcOEqb95k3ZQ&_nc_ss=7b289&oh=00_Af_UPrfpyvidFGMMfujuOK5rzs-kMKDsf_8dt5N0mxfIBg&oe=6A39BBF6

[uncut hazel]

I'll check them tomorrow

[restive bobcat]

These are basically straight repaints of existing JP+ engines, I'll do them soon

I'm literally in Doha now on the way back home

[digital tapir]

Also, if You feel we have not enough shunting/light freight steam locos in eastern european and asian regions, these polish tanks should be fine

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/TKh-05353_Wolsztyn_05.16_182.JPG

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Polish_PKP_0-8-0T_TKp_No_5485_4.JPG

These 2 types were exported to China

[digital tapir]

Speaking about lack of locos in southern american region

GEC-Alsthom AD24

https://www.bahnbilder.de//1200/gec-alstom-ad24-2404-guamote-auf-1263991.jpg

https://www.derbysulzers.com/ecuador155.jpg

Another Alsthom loco, older

type 6LDA25 3x2

also

https://www.bahnbilder.de/1200/die-dampflok-fuer-weiterfahrt-nach-1432670.jpg

Ingeteam/CFD TD 2000 BB

Also used in Spain!

[uncut hazel]

just catching up on yesterday's stuff. i've amended the grf file on my googledrive (link further up) it now has the three designs you made

thanks. for the more obscure ones, i'll need some data tho'. if it's not on wiki or something easy-to-reach place it'd all be guesswork which i'm bad at

[digital tapir]

speaking about unusual designs

In the early days of the Shinkansen cargo operation with container-carrying MUs was seriousle proposed

Not a single prototype was build, but I found it neat

It was ment to operate at 160km/h

https://trainstobeyond.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/picture1434.png

[uncut hazel]

thanks! any thoughts on the other properties? date, power, that sorta stuff? even just as something to put in the properties?

[digital tapir]

check this source

https://note.com/jnr_era/n/nc2246eb31f4b?hl=en

[uncut hazel]

gosh, even that is so puny 😄 - i mean i get that on narrow gauge they can't do a lot plus their needs are different but here iw as thinking yayyy a modern loco....80kmh 😄

[digital tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/omw-slow-on-my-way-cute-monsters-inc-gif-17521429

[digital tapir]

speaking about gauges...

Maybe, whan an track set which provides narrow gauge and standard gauge, but not broad gauge,

broad gauge locos should became standard gauge in such situation?

[uncut hazel]

they should auto-fallback to standard in that case now

[digital tapir]

(or make the player select the behavious (not aperar/apear at SG) in such case in grf's settings)

also, we should add broad gauge to traxx (becouse spain) and lok2000 (Becouse finland)

speaking about south america, we should once again take a look at NA locos

while SA has very few railways, a lot of tham operate with NA equiptment, adding such equiptment would likely improve the situation

(lack of high-performance locos)

[uncut hazel]

ok i've added this as concept, though the actual data is guesswork. grf updated again.

[uncut hazel]

what voltages do those use? (specifically the countries you mention)

[digital tapir]

Spain: 3kV DC
Finland 25kV AC

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/253.053_Castellbisbal.jpg

Broad gauge Traxx in Spain

Maybe just name the loco Bombardier Traxx?

[uncut hazel]

i think that particular original naming might have been you, so in that case i accept any changes. just remember there is another traxx in the set (Sweden)

[digital tapir]

In SIemens Velero

add 25kV AC, 3kV DC, Northern Europe (UK), Eastern Europe (Russia) Asia (China, Russia)

[digital tapir]

meybe change to F140 MS

Which is the IRL factory's designation of the multi system version

[uncut hazel]

if Russia then also broad g yesno?

[digital tapir]

YES

[uncut hazel]

"we" is likely to be you 🙂 -- i'm not familiar at all with these so i rely on advice from yourself and others in this topic

[digital tapir]

also we should take a look at waggons/coaches and thair gauges

i.e. to limit the high capacity ones to standard and broad gauge

[uncut hazel]

coaches are less problematic because there are usually alternatives. without checking i think (not sure) not all coaches are all-gauge.
wagons are more problematic because almost always there are no alternatives. so we can't quite cut them altogether. worst case i can put a speed and capacity penalty (expressed as a <1 mulitplier) to those perhaps when on narrow gauge tho i'd need to figure how precisely

[digital tapir]

One can always make separate NG coaches based on graphics from Horse and JP+

[uncut hazel]

Yes, though remember that if the player is on the standard ottd set (no track grfs that is) then narrow also falls back to standard.

[digital tapir]

I wonder how much work we have ehead till the first bananas release, as an public test version?

[uncut hazel]

I guess a bigger question is/are how perfect we want to be and how close to reality we want to be. E.g. Africa or S-America had fewer items in real life because...reasons. So the lack of items in those regions might not be rectified because there isn't anything to rectify. Or like with the AD24 you posted earlier, there is no data so we either pure guesswork things, or not include them
Other than that, if we make a list of precise todos, we can work along those lines but i think we're generally pretty good.

[digital tapir]

Speaking about stuff for SA and Africa

there is an old, unmaintaind set called Tropc Renewal set and it was composed out of locos fot these regions

done mostly by Uzurpator, who did also some uncredited sprites for 2CC

[uncut hazel]

https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31324 this?

[digital tapir]

YES

this was an modernised verion of the OG TropicSet which was one of the first regional sets for TTDPatch

also some futuristic trains

[uncut hazel]

wow an xls format file 😄 [not xlsx -- i guess office2007 was still in beta version back then]

i actually wrote my uni dissertation when Office2007 beta1 came out. it was such a leap against v2003 i loved it back then.

must have copied it from torrents or dc or kazaa or somesuch 😄

[full swallow]

This would be a funny addition a 400kph double deck high-speed train in auz

[digital tapir]

also, the OG tropic set

https://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/details.php?do=details&id=5

[uncut hazel]

i'll try to decompile the sligthly newer one methinnks 😄
sadly no graphics separately available so getting the spirtes associated with actual vehicles will be a pain

[digital tapir]

God... decompilation....

https://tenor.com/view/hacker-hackerman-kung-fury-gif-7953536

[uncut hazel]

that too. just looking at the file. we'll need to figure out what is what in real life.
but the sprites will be quite fucky to get, most of all.

[digital tapir]

I spy a lot of ZuidAfrika

[uncut hazel]

technically nmlc can decompile them but it will look totally chaotic

[digital tapir]

just as with computer programmes

after decompilation all comments are gone, and variable names are random...

[uncut hazel]

erm...might give it a miss 😄

[digital tapir]

colour palette?

[uncut hazel]

nevermind that.
how doi figure (and sensibly extract?!) what belongs to what?

[digital tapir]

it looks like pink replaced gray

[full swallow]

Hmmm 3 different deflectors

[digital tapir]

load the grf to openttd and check which loco is what?

[restive bobcat]

That's an easy fix, just decompile in the correct palette

[digital tapir]

I suppose, windows and DOS palettes?

[restive bobcat]

Yes

Tropic set is very old so it uses WIN

[uncut hazel]

-p <palette>, --palette=<palette>
Force nml to use the palette <pal> [default: ANY].
Valid values are 'DEFAULT', 'LEGACY', 'ANY'

[restive bobcat]

Not nml, grfcodec when decompilimg

[uncut hazel]

yes that's from grfcodec

sorry my bad

it isn't

too many cmd windows open

[digital tapir]

wait.... Candyland uses an seprate pallette :0

[restive bobcat]

Ah that reminds me, I wanted to do TOFCs as well

Toyland water is different, has a greener colour

[uncut hazel]

gemini to the rescue

right. if someone gives me a proper name for items (like vlookup/xlookup-compatible) they think should be extracted i can try to coerce the logic together.

[digital tapir]

what does vlookup/xlookup-compatible mean?

[uncut hazel]

optimally a tab separated keyvalue pair 😄 - but comma separated will do.
ie there are ~150 items in there though many are wagons. if you type something like
Class 12 L 'Caprotti', new name
i can look that up in excel. but if it's totally adhoc then it will take a very long time to figure in the first place what was what.

because in my templates the filenaming is dependent on stuff like country and description and basically i'd like to make things as-not-manual-as-possible, per usual

[digital tapir]

OK, I will take an look later

[uncut hazel]

attempt3 at getting things semi-auto-templated out of the nfo

[digital tapir]

You plan to add all locos from this set?

[uncut hazel]

prob not. again, i'm not particualrly familiar with these regions and what the various items were/are. but i think we should to fill gaps most of all. if we feel something is a real add to the project, we should include it, but just for the sake of adding 100 things, probably not.

[full swallow]

Lol the tender is almost the same size as the locomotive

[digital tapir]

likely condensing tender

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Kriegslok.jpg

[full swallow]

Huh it is that big

[uncut hazel]

google's first result for class 15a -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Class_15A_4-8-2

[full swallow]

I think that's the class 25

[uncut hazel]

idk. i just noted the filename extracted. 🙂

[full swallow]

From the design of the loco it's more of the class 25

[uncut hazel]

yeah. which sucks because then the extraction is wrong.

[digital tapir]

at least it would be easier with diesels and electrics

[full swallow]

The class 15 seems to be based on the Rhodesia railway garratt's

Although just do the electrics and diesels first

Although 1 nitpick i find is the class 20 in game doesn't look anything like the class 20 in real life

[digital tapir]

maybe it was still on drawing boards whan the MOD was being made?

[full swallow]

Probably ?

When was the mod created again ?

[digital tapir]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_African_locomotive_classes#Gas-electric,_Diesel-electric,_Diesel-hydraulic_&_Electro-diesel_locomotives

[digital tapir]

I am 100% sure that the grf was made before 2011

something like in 2007 or so

[uncut hazel]

2007

[full swallow]

Very ancient it seems

[digital tapir]

it seems to date from the begginings of my openTTD journey ; )

[full swallow]

Oh right I forgot to ask do y'all intend to add any vietnam railway locomotives ?

Just a curious question

[uncut hazel]

If you make the sprites....:)

i said many-a-times, i can't draw. the best i can do is minor changes to existing sprites and even those usually end up like clusterf.k

[full swallow]

Cool to know

[digital tapir]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/D19E-905_(SIK_03-054979).jpg

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/JRM7W4/vietnamese-railway-locomotive-JRM7W4.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_abu61TNuRuJBfjyU8tscqgntgQ6UHXAF7vPrOpG8To1WoKHxICtqRtA&s=10

We hava HST at our depot!

[uncut hazel]

if anyone remembers this ad from India...

that's ref the hst image

[full swallow]

Ah yes our own temu ice train

[digital tapir]

it was de facto shop build

[full swallow]

Thing was so unreliable 😭

[uncut hazel]

https://youtu.be/85NWO1Qpe8s

[digital tapir]

https://05592134.up.seesaa.net/01878557N000000007/139713525087121881225_D8E-1-thumbnail2.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpI-dcCTwSdkCYzfYeQdFXXaLV9uUkVtDx1A&s

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMmV2HVWDt18glnjWa3ykf0FD1C86S9hmjVkCjCxFRuSs0xOshc61N8lgE&s=10

[digital tapir]

I wonder if this is mostly special effects, or if thay really massackred an Hindustian for this ad

[uncut hazel]

i'd think both?

also this is a very old ad, it was probably cheaper to wrack two cars at the time than to render all this

[full swallow]

We also have a dripped airforce style locomotive

[digital tapir]

niiiiiiice

BTW Yesterday I learned the Poland exported some industral tank engines there

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/TKb-10.jpg

Baizel class

it is said that 2-5 units (excact number unknown) were exported brand new to Vietnam

[uncut hazel]

You're good at drawing things so far... 😉

[full swallow]

We had some swish locos

[digital tapir]

mashing from somebody's else's graphics

[digital tapir]

for rack rail?

[full swallow]

Yep

After 1975 they were out of a job until the 1990s where all the locos returned to Switzerland

[restive bobcat]

Just to be aware, the WAP4 exists in the set already

[digital tapir]

I have decided to modify Charger's and VT133 sprites

||If Yould ever need an high-res graphics of the VT133 Wismar Railcar I have an 3d model compleate textured on my HDD, so I can use it for sprites||

Let's rename VT133 in the set to VT133 Wismar Railcar, as the VT133 was an generic designation of various small 2 axle railcars

[uncut hazel]

thanks. i'll do those in a bit. just goign thru the tropical set and fishing out wiki links.

sigh. discord is so stupid.

even stupider than i thought

wanted to paste as text but it told me i can't dm (didn't dm anyone but nevermind)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HsM1RNsuvOTIlf4Uo_hpgCSp3tGddWT5?rtpof=true&usp=drive_fs
there. i added the wiki links to non-steams

file otherwise unchanged (converted to xlsx tho)

[restive bobcat]

Good job, that looks much more like a Charger 🙂 I'd do a backwards facing row as well as a lot of single ended locos have them

[digital tapir]

hmmm nice idea

[uncut hazel]

i know it's an img again but i can't seem to paste sensible format here.
updated the file again above with names etc

the stuff at the top are (as of 2007 anyway) concept/imaginary things

[digital tapir]

I always wondered what the author ment with the combined cycle

[uncut hazel]

I think the last time someone asked me what the author meant by xy was back in elementary school literature class, poem analysis 😄
Maybe idk hybrid?

[digital tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/power-scaling-gif-15698130683819106148

school literature classes?

https://tenor.com/view/war-vietnam-ptsd-shell-shock-moment-gif-3022747568394546158

anyways, I spy some candidates for filling up south american gaps

[uncut hazel]

ok. i'll add most of the above in the meantime

[digital tapir]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6XFlwNown7E/maxresdefault.jpg

https://www.gscaletrainforum.com/uploads/monthly_2024_10/53867783576_e44f9a982e_o.jpg.be2e88b983a59b8c3163537620e3c2a9.jpg

Such wheel arrangement

[uncut hazel]

right, i've added the ones in green (so all the non-imaginary ones except the century because i think australia already has more than plenty); didn't add the steam one(s) either
the ones crossed out were already in the set.
googledrive grf link updated

the only comment i'd make is that guessworking which sprite belonged to what vehicle was a bit of a hit or miss so it's not impossible i mixed up some. also many sprites are almost identical.

[digital tapir]

https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/fctt-10.jpg

https://www.trains-worldexpresses.com/800/842-06m.JPG

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2slDpW9jTv8fhNSWEoxufsLLGAAllUtqvMB83zJ8Tv6hEtNk3YcsgrXs&s=10

electric operations in Chile

[full swallow]

Awwwwwww cute

Brazil did have a large network of electrified railway

[digital tapir]

This is really suprising, given the current state of railways in Brazisl

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhTE76XBjMJLFOj2C5M5ZHS4FPw9wd5fKeD4FM-Fb6db4oGNfxk-TqJLgWvgqyorAeUXJmkwnsQBAV_VwQe8SAWfGQNsoa8iFVT6M8g_j1HHBp4LIxnV_DiCUz6bmuZBE33tv5pt_destEycdZNd59-xfCKK_OESMU3EvOV1Mj0w63un02ZzLDHEobnWEI/s1800/,,,,,15.jpg

EMD JT26CW-2B

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fcc_railfan/54108057119/

Rebuild EMD GT12

I vougly remember seing an photo of an other, 6 axle loco rebuild to this cab style....

But the more important thing, is to sort out the flags question

https://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/0/4/2104.1128477600.jpg

Alstom EC-362

http://vfco.brazilia.jor.br/Fepasa-ferrovias-paulistas/locomotivas/locomotiva-eletrica-GE-Baratinha-6505-Fepasa-larga-Oficinas-Bauru-1993-01.jpg

[uncut hazel]

This is a decent example where the whole flags thing is chaotic . They were originally commissioned for Spain.
Wikipedia:
In 2006, Euskotren awarded Ingeteam the construction of 12 diesel-electric locomotives for 37.5 million euros.[1] The first locomotives were delivered in early 2009,[2] and entered service later that year.[citation needed] The purchase has been criticized due to the low usage of the locomotives,[3] caused by an overestimation of rail freight demand.[4]

Due to lack of use, one of the locomotives was leased to FGC from 2012 to 2017, where it served as the FGC 255 series.[5][3] In 2015, three of the locomotives were converted to 1,067 mm (3 ft 6 in) gauge and sold to FE EP, the national railway of Ecuador.[6]

And this is a simple example in terms of a single manufacturer not across the planet. But operators are a nightmare.
I still think we should drop flags and countries.

[digital tapir]

Are flags BAD FEATURE?

but thay have been in the 2cc's DNA since the beginning

[uncut hazel]

In our context they are not beneficial. 2cc was originally done with operators in mind and those are nation specific. Hence the whole thing with stuff like MTR 8000 aka Siemens ER20. MTR is HK/China but ER20 is a lot of things.

Look we get one flag to pick for each item. How do we define in a way that stands up to scrutiny all the complex vehicles like MTR or the Ingeteam one?

[digital tapir]

We will likely have to ditch the flags from the initial release and maybe think about tham later

[uncut hazel]

Probably yes, otherwise most items will have a "World" or "Europe" flag, which I'm not sure is particularly sensible

[uncut hazel]

One thing I'll do shortly is to rename the various files because the namings are totally all over the place at the moment, most from old world and some from new and the country names are also in the filenames, which makes things even more unreliable

[uncut hazel]

Ok renamed files, removed flags etc. Git and grf updated. I'm about to head out.

[digital tapir]

ohhhhh I spy some errors in the vehicle roaster!

[uncut hazel]

Roster 😉
A roaster makes drinkable coffee ☕😋

[digital tapir]

does the purchase menue ingame show compatible voltages?

[uncut hazel]

It should I think, especially if you have a compatible track set - if you flag anything specific i can check at home later

[digital tapir]

Also I would love to see an more -easly readable format of the electric systems in the roster

[uncut hazel]

https://github.com/nemethviktor/2ccts_revival/blob/master/docs%2Fvehicle_summary.md

This not ok?

[digital tapir]

I dont excactly know what OHLE and DUAL mean

[uncut hazel]

Dual is both third rail and catenary, ohle is ... I need to check lol

[obsidian hornet]

Ohle is catenary

[digital tapir]

but what system?

[uncut hazel]

Yes but in terms that I don't recall precisely if it's any overhead or 25+15kv or something else

[obsidian hornet]

Ooo fair

[digital tapir]

it would be easier to look at the list by just listing all the electric (and gauge) systems each loco can use

[uncut hazel]

https://github.com/nemethviktor/2ccts_revival/blob/master/src%2Frailtypetable.pnml#L20

I can't copy paste too well on phone

But the above should give guidance

[digital tapir]

By this is ment to run on I mean ONLY on the systems specified

I dont think the multi-systems are handled properly....

ALCO-GE NYC S-Motor S1 - add STANDARD_1500V becouse it has an pantograph
TIBB E.550 - change to STANDARD_15KV?
Ge 6/6 'Krokodil' - change to NARROW_15KV
CEF BB 1600 - change to STANDARD_1500V
Westinghouse 6wOE B1 - change to STANDARD_15KV and STANDARD_3RD
GE 4-6-0+0-6-4OE GG-1 - change to STANDARD_15KV
SLM/BBC/MFO Ge 4/4 I - change to NARROW_15KV
Tulloch 0-6-0DM 'W' Class - this is an DIESEL locomotive
BR 85 - Rename to: Doncaster AL5
Alsthom BB 25500 - this is ment to run on 1500V DC and 25KV AC
Alsthom CC 40101 - rename to Alsthom CC 40100, this is ment to run on 1500V DC, 3000V DC, 15KV AC and 25kV AC
Hitachi EF81 - this is ment to run on 1500V DC and 25KV AC
Alsthom BB 22200 - this is ment to run on 1500V DC and 25KV AC
ASEA-EMD AEM-7 - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
ASEA/Electroputere Rb - likely it is ment to be Electroputere LE5100? If so change the name
GEC 9E - change to NARROW_25KV
Skoda 69E - this is ment to run on 3000V DC and 25KV AC
GE E60C-2 - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
SGP 1063 - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
GEC-Alsthom BB 26000 - this is ment to run on 1500V DC and 25KV AC
SLM-ABB Lok 2000 - replace BROAD_3KV with BROAD_25KV, MAYBE add BROAD_15KV?
CAF/Macosa 252 - this is ment to run on 3000V DC, 1500V DC and 25KV AC, on standard and broad gauges
ABB/Brush Class 92 - this is ment to run on 3rd rail and on 25KV AC
Alsthom Class 13 HLE - this is ment to run on 3000V DC, 1500V DC and 25KV AC
Toshiba EH500 - this is ment to run on 1500V DC and 25KV AC
Bombardier-Alstom HHP-8 - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
Bombardier Traxx F140 MS - Make it run on all OHLE systems, on both standard and broad gauges
Siemens Eurosprinter ES64U4 - Make it run on all OHLE systems
Siemens EuroSprinter ES64F - rename to ES64F4, Make it run on all OHLE systems, make it aviavable in Europe, speed = 140

Ingeteam TD2000 series - make it an diesel loco
Skoda 109E - this is ment to run on 3000V DC, 1500V DC and 25KV AC
Alstom Prima II - rename to Alstom E 1400, add 25KV AC
Siemens ACS-64 - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
TRTrans/NEVZ EP20 - this is ment to run on 3000V DC, and 25KV AC
Stadler Butler Eem 923 - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
PESA 111MS - make it run on all 4 OHLE systems
ACME Corp. HS001 and HS002 - make it run on all 4 OHLE systems, on standard and broad gauge

[digital tapir]

Budd Silverliner II - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
Hyundai Rotem Silverliner V - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
PRR MP54 - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 3rd rail
AEG EW90 - rename to ET 165, - make it run on 1500V DC and on 3rd rail, on standard and broad gauge (USSR), add western european region
JNR Container Bullet Train Concept - change to STANDARD_25KV, this was ment to be an shinkansen train
SIG Rae TEE II - make it run on all 4 OHLE systems
Budd Metroliner - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
RVR ER200 - remove 25KV AC, this is 3000 V DC ONLY
Valmet Sm2 - change to BROAD_25KV
Alsthom TGV 23000 - this is ment to run on 1500V DC and 25KV AC
BN/ACEC ZMC - add western Europe, thus Belgium
ASEA X2000 - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
TREVI ETR.500 'Frecciarossa' - this is ment to run on 3000V DC, 1500V DC and 25KV AC
Alsthom 'Pendolino' 680 - this is ment to run on 3000V DC, 15KV AC and 25KV AC
Alsthom TGV Duplex - add Africa Region (Morroco), this is ment to run on 1500V CC and 25KV
GEC-Alsthom Thalys PBKA - make it run on all OHLE systems

Alstom 'Coradia Duplex' - add northern europe, this is ment to run on 1500V DC, 15KV AC and 25KV AC
Bombarier/Alstom Acela Express - this is ment to run on 15KV AC and 25KV AC
Fiat/CAF Sm4 - 25KV AC ONLY
Siemens Velero - make it run on all 4 OHLE systems on both standard and broad gauge
CAF/Alstom Class 120 - make it run on 3000V DC and 25kV AC, on standard and broad gauge
Kawasaki/Nippon Sharyo/Toshiba M250 - 1500V DC ONLY
Stadler RABe 523 'Flirt' - make it run on all 4 OHLE systems, on standard and broad gauge
Alstom AGV - make it run on all 4 OHLE systems
Siemens Desiro ES1 'Lastochka'- this is ment to run on 3000V DC and 25KV AC
Stadler 4010 - 15KV AC ONLY (?) Or maybe just raname to Stander K...and make it run on 3000V DC, 15KV AC and 25KV AC on both standard and broad gauges
AnsaldoBreda V250 'Albatros' - this is ment to run on 3000V DC, 15KV AC and 25KV AC

NS 4800 HSA 'Fyra' - make it run on all 4 OHLE systems
Alstom Avelia Horizon - add africa region, make it run on all 4 OHLE systems
Koncar 6112 - this is standard gauge, not broad gauge
ACME units - make it run on all 4 OHLE systems, on both standard and broad gauges

ufffffff alll electrics...

I think that we should firstly do the electric systems and gauges, later the regions

there are still some things to do with regions eg. make Electroputere LE5100 aviavable in eastern europe

[restive bobcat]

You're getting blocked by automod, at this point it's probably better to write everything in a document and send it

[digital tapir]

I have somehow managed to split the post into halves and the automod passed it

[uncut hazel]

thanks for those.
i'm amending one by one at the moment.
just btw i am wondering when you say Pesa 111MS should run on all OHLE, it already does
if you see it differently, lmk please.

same for Rae TEE II

there are a few more similar ones (GEC-Alsthom Thalys PBKA etc, won't spam further with list :))

m250 already 1500v

Otherwise updated - the grf has been updated on my google drive but i haven't pushed to git.

[digital tapir]

some more really poorly drawn sprites, this time south american electric locomotives

Maybe make the Alsthom run on standard gauge too, to have ANYTHING electric on standard gauge in South America?

[uncut hazel]

Hey, thanks for those...but these are mighty obscure items, I'll need some data for these as they're not all on wiki

Hmm. Curious now. https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficheiro:Alsthom_EC-386_Fepasa_2201.jpg
This has the 2201 as EC386....

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_EC-362
So this has the same as 362!

Alas, there is data for one and not the other so I'll take the 362

Quacks like a duck I guess

Chesta Casagrande E650
I cannot find any info on this, can you provide the usuals please.

[digital tapir]

EC-362 was the manufacturer's name operator's name was series 2200 for narrow gauge version and 6200 for broad gauge version

http://vfco.brazilia.jor.br/locomotivas/Fepasa/06-locomotiva-BB-Alsthom-1m00-2201-francesa-desenho.shtml

http://vfco.brazilia.jor.br/locomotivas/Fepasa/10-locomotiva-BB-Alsthom-1m60-6201-desenho.shtml

Nice site on locos in Brazil

[full swallow]

Is it from fepasa and electric ?

[digital tapir]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocopilla_railway#Locomotives_of_the_Tocopilla_nitrate_railway

Newest electric loco

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Portrait_of_new_SQM_E651.jpg

[full swallow]

Well then

[digital tapir]

couldnt find manufacturer's name, so I used the operator's name (series E650)

[uncut hazel]

Yesss. except it doesn't say the speed, weight and the usuals I need 😉

Oh wait it might.

Me idiot.

[digital tapir]

https://web.archive.org/web/20090503075918/http://www.chesta.cl/proyectos2.php?idproyecto=329

[uncut hazel]

Kinda doesn't though. It says the power but not much else. We already have a boxcab from the same era, I'll take those values where missing.

[digital tapir]

the boxcab is much older

but generally it worked together with the E650 till the end of operations on that line

[uncut hazel]

CNJ ALCo-GE-IR Boxcab 100T
--> 1931
Okay it's not electric but same era.

unless we should run it at 12kmh.

[uncut hazel]

casagrande motori

https://trainspo.com/model/5027/
no useful details tho

[full swallow]

Chesta Ingenieria and Casagrande Motori

It's a local Chilean manufacturer

[digital tapir]

ohhhhh shit....

maybe buff it to, 30km/h?

[uncut hazel]

Neat. We still need some data for that E650 tho.

[digital tapir]

maybe just make tham up

to have an minor upgrade from the boxcab

[full swallow]

Top speed uh maybe 80 kph

[obsidian hornet]

lmao

12kmh

[uncut hazel]

I'd say no more than 50kmh for the boxcab, in the early 20s they weren't speeding around much anyway

[full swallow]

Ok I found some info regarding the top speed

[uncut hazel]

No need to go for ludicrious speed 😄

[full swallow]

IT was a pain

So The locomotive's programmed maximum speed is 25 km/h, after which the overspeed protection activates. Without this protection, it should reach approximately 30 km/h uphill.
The downhill speed restriction on the line is 20 km/h. Uphill, the locomotives reach close to 30 km/h near the main rectifier due to current issues, but the average uphill speed does not exceed 16 km/h.
The maximum tonnage hauled with empty cars (uphill) is 150 tons (15 cars).
Downhill, with 24 full cars, the maximum tonnage is 970 tons (24 cars).

[digital tapir]

ok, so I drew (well, put together from Our Glorious Emperor's sprites) an freakin' gork that will be not used by anybody!

[uncut hazel]

30 it is! 🙂

[digital tapir]

fast as the wind!

[full swallow]

It was very obscure so I have to go to the Chilean sites

[uncut hazel]

thanks 🙂
anyway, any guesswork on the E650?

[digital tapir]

I dont know if he was talkin about boxcab or E650

[uncut hazel]

i assumed boxcab. a modern loco would (surely?) go more than 30k?

[digital tapir]

bear in mind that these are special-purpose locos for mining-industral operations....

[full swallow]

Well that's the actual speed of the e650

[uncut hazel]

Ah...Ok. 30 it is for both then! 🙂

[full swallow]

They were build for the purpose of replacing the old box cabs

And only on that line so....

[digital tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/cars-lightning-mcqueen-speed-im-speed-i-am-speed-gif-25593042

[uncut hazel]

thoughts on weight and hp?

[full swallow]

Hp is uh

[uncut hazel]

uh doesn't convert to integer i'm afraid 😉

[full swallow]

Depends on which site the wiki saids the hp was 1200 while the one I found saids 1080

[uncut hazel]

1140 for average?

[full swallow]

Maybe ?

Also found some pictures of the steam fleet

[digital tapir]

likely short term and long term power

[full swallow]

Well they are very obscure

[uncut hazel]

Ok updated the grf with the 4

[digital tapir]

electric systems corrected too?

[uncut hazel]

Yes. Also most sprites have been edited to have the new names printed on them (not all but most.)

git is up to date as of this morning except the 4 added now

[digital tapir]

ok, gimme the link

[uncut hazel]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=15M6hdWmnYQWlgP0Xh-UZbEimmLge4TZk&usp=drive_fs

[digital tapir]

sweet gonna check

[uncut hazel]

it's a pretty static link by the way, it gets updated after every build automatically.

there's a batch file to copy the output to the location post-build.

also since you're around, scroll up a bit pls i had a few questions for you earlier

[uncut hazel]

hereabouts

[digital tapir]

what track set do You use?

[uncut hazel]

sets

[digital tapir]

JP+ track set, becouse this is my fav

In such an situation it would be more logical to list all systems on which the train can run

[uncut hazel]

YEs, btut i t will be very verbose

like the albatros

[digital tapir]

what do You mean?

this should be 3kv only

here this should be only 1500V DC

this should be 1500V and 3000V only

I have no idea what happenned here

This should be 3kV only

And there is more....

There may be an bug in the electric systems logic in this set...

also the icons of the lightnings seem to have random colours....

[uncut hazel]

what i meant was that OHLE is short. listing all the things like 25kv ac, 15lv ac, 3kv dc is a lengthy string and is very verbose and basically mean the same thing

[uncut hazel]

theoretically the icons have to do with dc or ac and i think possibly even the voltage

[digital tapir]

a lot of locos dont show correct voltage

i think there may be an bug with multi-system locos

and my fault, white line on Pesa Dart

[uncut hazel]

ok so all these and the above are meant to be broad gauge. so i think there's some lost-in-translation when they move to standard because there isn't such a set installed. i'm looking at the others

[uncut hazel]

yeah this is standard 3kv

i mean indeed it should be

STANDARD_GAUGE_RAILTYPE_3KV : ["SAAD", "ELRL", "RAIL"],

that seems sensible to me
BROAD_GAUGE_RAILTYPE_3KV : ["BAAD", "BAAE", "ELRL", "RAIL"],
this might not be good though. (no SAAD fallback)

wiki thoroughly useless on the subject as per usual

so i think 3kv SAAD is sensible.

Example approach for a 4-system set, with trains that can run on either one or all systems:

E: generic catenary-powered electric engines. "universal" [4-system] if any of D/d/A/a are defined.
A: generic AC catenary electric engines. 25kV only if a also defined. Vehicle sets should use E as fallback, if defining an engine for A;
a: 15kV AC catenary electric engines. Only defined if A also defined. Vehicle sets should use A and E as fallback, if defining an engine for a;
D: generic DC catenary electric engines. 3kV if d also defined. Vehicle sets should use E as fallback, if defining an engine for D;
d: 1.5kV DC catenary electric engines. Only defined if D also defined. Vehicle sets should use D and E as fallback, if defining an engine for d.

so for the GE you flagged it's also BROAD

which is why it's falling back to ELRL

[inland wren]

E is not the ideal way of doing it anymore

Having rail in those fallbacks above is entirely unnecessary aswell

[uncut hazel]

I guess it should be BROAD_GAUGE_RAILTYPE_3KV : ["BAAD", "SAAD", "ELRL", "RAIL"],

[inland wren]

Imo BAAD, BAAE, SAAD, SAAE, ELRL is the best one

I'd want it to stay on board gauge even if broadgauge only had generic electric

[uncut hazel]

I'm a bit unsure how things work in openttd's inside logic but the aim is that if people have the railsets, they should adhere to whatever railsets, else fall back to normal and be available if voltage available else normal
ie for Broad 3kv if no broad set but say SETS Standards then Std 3kv, if base then elrl.

[inland wren]

That's correct ELRL is however always available you can't ever remove it

My comment about E earlier was that it's better to have multiple railtypes in the track type property and some if blocks so that you can limit it to only a combination of voltages rather than all electric

railtypetable {
DC_3KV: [SAAD],
AC_25KV: [SAAA],
ACDC: [SAAE, ELRL]
}

if (railtype_available("SAAA") || railtype_available("SAAD")) {
item (FEAT_TRAINS, train3) {
properties {
track_type: [AC_25, DC_3KV];
}
}
} else {
item (FEAT_TRAINS, train3) {
properties {
track_type: ACDC;
}
}
}

Not sure I ever tested this tbh so maybe there's a syntax issue but I hope you get the idea

[uncut hazel]

patched my version, seems ok now.

[uncut hazel]

ish, but not sure what the benefit is over fallbacks?

[obsidian hornet]

brick is right

[inland wren]

Fallbacks are one at a time so you can't allow anything to run on multiple incompatible railtypes

D and A aren't compatible but there are engines which use both of them

The old way was to just use generic OHLE but that means they also drive on d and a

[uncut hazel]

ahh. yes and no. we are doing that actually. gimme a sec

[inland wren]

Same problem with Z really

[inland wren]

Won't work fully unless doing the ifs but that's good to hear

[uncut hazel]

so in this set is only used when it's more or less an "any" thing. when specific like that you mentioned we have multiple

[inland wren]

Nice

Although your implementation won't work if you disable 3kv tracks in sets

Although I guess that isn't too big of a deal given forcing multi system locos to be confined when the regular ones aren't doesn't make much sense

[uncut hazel]

for that particular one we have

track_type: [STANDARD_GAUGE_RAILTYPE_25KV, STANDARD_GAUGE_RAILTYPE_3KV, BROAD_GAUGE_RAILTYPE_25KV, BROAD_GAUGE_RAILTYPE_3KV];

[inland wren]

Was gonna say that's wrong but it's not

Forgot gauge changing trains exist

[uncut hazel]

i think in this case bcs we don't have liveries, if a model was available (not necessarily within one single vehicle) on multi tracks we define both

ie we don't have separate CAF 120 STD and 120 BROAD

[inland wren]

Makes sense but that does mean it will be able to change on the fly

[uncut hazel]

fair, although i am not sure it's meant to. @digital tapir can prob opine on some of the logic as he was/is the driving brain behind most of the classification. i just do the framework

[digital tapir]

i dont mind it

Just an nice side effect

[inland wren]

You should probably remove BAAZ, and SAAZ railtypes too if you haven't

[inland wren]

Fair

[uncut hazel]

they're still there. i think there are a few that are meant to be dual capable

STANDARD_GAUGE_RAILTYPE_DUAL : ["SAAZ", "ELRL", "MTRO", "MONO"],

mtro_CAF_Amsterdam_S3_90

singlemtro_Brooklyn_Union_Gate_1300

no more

[inland wren]

It's better to do that by adding the correct voltage and 3 tho

Z is E + 3 and E is generic so "bad"

It also means you need to have the Z railtype which is more rare than E and 3

[uncut hazel]

the CAF is a bit problematic
we don't do overhead 600...1500 for us i guess

unsure what the voltage on teh union gate would be. 15kv? we don't do 11 or 12

[digital tapir]

round it up to 1500V DC whihc is generic low-volatege OHLE in our set

[uncut hazel]

ok i guess

[digital tapir]

some sprites have some.... weird effects...

eg look at the SS3

[uncut hazel]

looks ok to me

[digital tapir]

the pink/mauve/purple colour....

not correct palette?

[uncut hazel]

apart from me being colourblind all files are saved with one palette only 🙂 -- also if it wasn't, nmlc would complain loudly

i'll check it again tho

[inland wren]

You can force a grf to switch in the menu so maybe that was done wrong?

Nvm that just looks wrong

[uncut hazel]

anyone spots anything? (resaved original with palette forced on it)

i'll be heading out in a few mins btw so might go quiet for a while

[digital tapir]

i suppose that somehow spmething broke with the 32bpp->8bpp conversion...

maybe either the compilier was set up for 32bpp mode and sprites were in 8bpp

or whan saving the sprite it saved in 32bpp and the compiler was in 8bpp mode

[inland wren]

There are two 8bpp palettes

I doubt 32bpp is involved

[digital tapir]

some of my sprites also seem to look a bit diffrent ingame than whan I posted tham...

Still, thay need improvements. eg the roof of the 201E

[uncut hazel]

I'll post a screenshot of what I'm using palette when I get home

[full swallow]

I love when I have to go down a rabbit hole just to find any useful information for a very specific obscure locomotive

[digital tapir]

for the colours I just copied tham from the painting palettes You provided

[inland wren]

I'm guessing this is windows pallette being used where it shouldn't

[uncut hazel]

Yes it's Windows... we're not on dos after all 😉

[inland wren]

dos pallette is the one you should be using

it's the default for a reason (better layout and more colours)

[uncut hazel]

In which case, no offense but that is the stupidest naming I've heard in the last 20 years :/

[inland wren]

it based on the windows and dos distibutions of ttd

but yes this has been an issue for all of that time

[uncut hazel]

Yes...and we are usually running Windows 11 or thereabouts, not 3.1 ...

Can someone thrn update the wiki to say don't use anything other than dos?

[inland wren]

it does that in most places

else you can do it it's just the forums account

[digital tapir]

it is an weird name just

just like NT in NTFS stends for New Technology, while this file system is anything but new

https://imgur.com/x8UFYRl

[restive bobcat]

The Windows palette only exists because the developers of the Windows port of TTD needed some extra space in the palette, so they made compromises

[digital tapir]

so, blame FishUK, or however that firm was called....

[restive bobcat]

In fact, the Windows palette is the reason some early 2cc sprites look so terrible, because the greys are scattered all over the palette and are hard to find so some of the sprites use the bluish-grey as a base instead

[digital tapir]

sooooo some sprites were done with windows palette and than converted to DOS palette?

[restive bobcat]

See this image

No, many of the sprites are still in Windows palette, it makes no difference when you convert them to dos

but editing files in windows palette is extremely annoying so they should be converted anyway

[obsidian hornet]

this must be what sbb set uses for roofs

[uncut hazel]

so, is there any way to get the compiler to just come to its senses and make them look okay or i need to resave a thousand files?

more to the point resaving is no use because the IDs beloging to colours are different

[digital tapir]

These are the palettes I used

[uncut hazel]

doesn't matter. your files are saved in photoshop for me. i copypaste the file you attach here and they go into the templating via photoshop so to keep names simple.

so the palette that is actually being used is per above

the tldr is that i don't trust discord to have a 8bit palette specific file so espc when copypasting (rightclick copy), it comes through as full colour

[restive bobcat]

Fair enough, but it's still annoying to have to convert every file to DOS before you start editing it

[digital tapir]

photoshop?

I use paint.net

[uncut hazel]

photoshop indeed

[restive bobcat]

I've used GIMP for years

[uncut hazel]

i can't 😄 -- it doesn't use standard windows file browser but some crappy linux thing even on the windows port. i refuse. 😄

[restive bobcat]

Oh that's never bothered me. Text boxes in GIMP are a right pain though

I have messed a bit with aseprite, might try that again

[uncut hazel]

okay well this won't work, that's certain

neither this

[inland wren]

https://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/Installation#NML_Command-line_Options

maybe -p will help??

[restive bobcat]

I don't think that's the problem here, this is about converting files. You might need to convert to RGB and then re-index it with DOS palette

[uncut hazel]

when doing -p WIN

[inland wren]

what about DOS?

else just do what Jake is saying

[uncut hazel]

that might help

[restive bobcat]

WIN is legacy, DOS is default

[restive bobcat]

That's still not right, see the purple around the edges

you've got some sort of anti-aliasing going on there

[uncut hazel]

i don't see colours much so...i'll believe you

[inland wren]

gimp has a box you have to untick iirc

[uncut hazel]

same i guess?

[uncut hazel]

sadly, ps doesn't, not that i know of.

i can ask the wizard of oz for a script tho (ai)

[restive bobcat]

It's very obvious on the vertical sprites, most of the roof is purple and not CC blue

or grey or whatever it should be

[uncut hazel]

this is when every optimisation is off

[restive bobcat]

Still the same, don't know what's causing it

[restive bobcat]

The problem is already present on the original here so it must be something you did earlier

[uncut hazel]

no clue to be honest.
the best i can do is that i change the psd save settings so they'd be saved DOS going forward and if you point out some specific things i can attempt to amend them one by one

[restive bobcat]

This isn't a palette issue, it's some kind of colour blending thing

[digital tapir]

wait

likely photoshop screwes it up whan saving

maybe some sort of compression?

[uncut hazel]

not with png.

png 8bit is uncompressed

what might happen though is that if a file came through from say github, when you copypaste an image there...

it's saved as jpg by the github editor

[restive bobcat]

I think it's trying to soften the edge of the sprite against the white background, resulting in a blended colour pixel which was then converted to purple by indexing

[uncut hazel]

so if (IF! i don't know) Jake saved it on GH it was converted to jpg automatically

or whoever else it was

[restive bobcat]

It's not JPG artifacts, those look different and more blocky

It's not Github either, I've sworked with many sprites on there and never had an issue

It's actually present on this screenshot too, the wheels are purple blobs but the roofline is being covered by the catenary so it's less obvious

Now that I look more closely, it's affecting other sprites too

[restive bobcat]

What about it? No purple pixels on that one

[obsidian hornet]

no im just amazed by it

[restive bobcat]

That's one of my early sprites actually

[obsidian hornet]

come here

[uncut hazel]

i think the least complex at this point is to resave the ones from the original old 2cc set ,,, i mean those that are affected.

[obsidian hornet]

you've lost hand privileges

[restive bobcat]

Well yeah, you can't fix ruined sprites with a script. Still need to figure out how it happened and to prevent it from happening again though

[restive bobcat]

That's better

[restive bobcat]

Does that mean you hate it?

the original is pretty wacky

[uncut hazel]

that's quite literally impossible. i have ideas as to how it happened but backtracking on these won't be possbile. i think what happened was that PS by default does do antialiasing and when i i took the old files and forced them into the new templates the selection must have AA'd itself somehow. it would have been turned off at some undefined point tho, which is why not everything is affected. but i guess the thing is if you see one that's wrong, shout.

[obsidian hornet]

oh i recognise this

[restive bobcat]

That makes sense 🙂

[obsidian hornet]

american electrics are their better looking locos

[digital tapir]

AND thay have 2 cabs!

Unlike yank diesels

[uncut hazel]

I've updated those two locally

[uncut hazel]

also added this one using an existing sprite

technically broad gauge

[obsidian hornet]

borked also

[uncut hazel]

aware. they've always been like that since i moved to badges, i think copypasting out from existing sprites made it like so

i'll have another look to see if i can force my will upon it

[digital tapir]

still not OK

now some have darkblue lines around

[uncut hazel]

it's from the 8bit badge set yo 😉

i nicked it (added credit to readme)

ah sorry.i thought you were also saying the badges

the stadler? yes looks a bit odd. but that hasn't changed recently

[digital tapir]

some other ones also have some blue pixels around...

still, looks a lot better than the previous iterations

[uncut hazel]

I'll clean up the worst offenders.

[digital tapir]

how do my sprites now look ingame?

[uncut hazel]

probably the same as before. i haven't resaved all the files, just the templates themselves plus resaving those that have blue outline. admittedly tho i'm finding the blue outline issue only affects the purchase sprite(s), not the main one(s)

[digital tapir]

Our set is on GPL licence?

[uncut hazel]

yes

[digital tapir]

GR8, becouse I chatted with people from other set, that I can borrow some thair sprites or inspire

still, I will need to recolour, becouse that set is not company coloured

Generally I dont think that some of the sprites I made look good, so I will have to modify

[uncut hazel]

No rush.
I'm off from 17 July for about a month. If we can do a release before then and gather feedback, that'd be great tho'

I expect to be offline during that time

[digital tapir]

Now an question for people who know more about drawing

do all the colours in the DOS palette have the same number of shades per colour?

[uncut hazel]

btw i updated the templates on git and added png templates as you and some others prob don't use photoshop. they should in theory be dos-templates

[uncut hazel]

rules logic has been slightly updated so we now have a better balance of universal vs freight and shunting vs light freight.
various files have been updated on git (charts incl.)
off to 💤

[digital tapir]

I remade the sprites of the polish locos, with usage of shapes from the polish rolling stock project and shortening and recolouring tham, fixed the bug on the pesa dart, changed the flirt to display 1 machineroom car and improved the V180 sprite

[uncut hazel]

thanks! i'll amend these.
made some other small change just now -- the old script used some horrendously complex square-root-approximation because the number generator was part of the build process and boy it was lengthy. so just replaced that with a simple python call. espc given that the game rounds almost everything to either an integer or thereabouts, i figured the differences at 4th or 5th digit won't make much diff but it runs faster and is cleaner

[digital tapir]

just curious why it was using such an CPU-intensive meccanism?

[uncut hazel]

because the old script used some bash-style code to generate the actual output and as such there were no libaries. (ie can't just say import math in the old world) -- so they did it half-manually.

(part of the old legacy code)

and by the way, there is some odd f..kery with discord doing png files. on this occasion i explicitly saved the files you attached rather than sending them through the templating process and lo and behold

anyway, i'll be saving them with dos palette from now on

ie this is what the file comes thru as (no changes on my side so far)

[digital tapir]

i dont spy any weirdness

I hope the colour changing will work fine ingame

[uncut hazel]

i'll do a build in a bit and then you can check afterwards 😉

[uncut hazel]

it's not the weirdness, it's the index IDs. i'm guessing discord takes your 8bit png and strips the empty index spots. and then computer says no if you are familiar with that bit of odd british humour

ie your png was in fact 8 bits

ok grf on googledrive updated

[uncut hazel]

btw, if you don't mind me pointing out a small thing, the verb you're likely after is spot or see or notice. unless you're james bond 😉

[digital tapir]

May You please increase the speed of the JNR Container Bullet Train Concept to 160km/h? This was ment to run alongside 0 series trains

[uncut hazel]

I'll do that later when I get home

[digital tapir]

ALCO S-2 - add australia region
GE 44-ton switcher - add narrow and broad gauge, add regions for North America, South America, Spain, France, Sweden, Asia and Africa
ALCO RSC-2 - add standard gauge, add regions for North America and Africa
Baldwin AS-616 - add narrow and broad gauge, add region for North America
EFCB ALCO RS-3 - rename to ALCO RS-3, add broad gauge
GM GT 26 W [040DG] - change to general GM GT26, add broad and narrow gauge, change intro date to 1967, add regions to: Asia South America and Yugoslavia
EMD G12 A608 'M2' - rename to EMD G12, add narrow and standard gauge, add regions for North America, South America, Africa, Netherlands, Sweden
EMD SW1200 - add south america region, add broad gauge and narrow gauge
Jenbacher Werke 2060 - add broad gauge, Eastern European region (Russia)
EMD/Clyde G12 - combine with the other G12
EMD GL8 - add standard and broad gauge, add Africa, Asia, Australia and Ireland regions
EMD GL8 [040DF] - combine with the other GL8
EMD SD18 - add broad gauge, add North American and South American regions
GE U5B - add standard and broad gauges, add African region
ALCO RSD-39 - add Spain region, add standard and narrow gauge
GE U10B - add South American, Australian, Asian and African regions
GE G22W - add sweden and Asian Region (note that there were also other variants of the G22, maybe w should make an generic G22?)
EMD G26 - add narrow gauge, add regions for Asia, Yugoslavia, Australia
GE U26C - add standard gauge (?), add south american region

[digital tapir]

MLW M420W - add south american region
GE C30-7 'Dash 7' - add Asian Region
GM GL 18 B [040DJ] -change to general GM G18, add Spanish, Asian and South American regions, change intro date to 1968
GMD GT22LC-2 - maybe make generic GT22?
GE C39-8 [FCCA] - rename to GE C39-8, add Northern American region
SOFSE 319.3 - rename to Macosa-Meinfesa J26, add Spain and Saudi Arabia regions
EMD SD70 - add narrow gauge, add Africa and Asia
EMD SD70ACS - merge with the other SD70
GE C44-9W 'Dash 9' - add Australia region
GE AC6000CW BHP 6071 - add North America region
GE AC6044CW - add South American region, add broad gauge
GE U20C - add Asian and African regions, add broad and standard (?) gauge
EMD F40PH - change intro date to 1972

[digital tapir]

Alsthom CC 72000 - move intro date to 1967, make it aviavable in African and France (W. Europe?) region
CEF BB 1600 - change region to France
Alsthom E 700 - as this was an variant of the BB 8100, add France region and add 1500V DC, move intro date to 1948

[restive bobcat]

EMD G12 should be Oceania too if it isn't already

[uncut hazel]

we have 2 G12s.
diesel_EMD_G12_A608_M2 EMD_G12_A608_M2 src\Diesel ID_RANGE_DIESEL 5079 EMD G12 A608 'M2'
diesel_EMD_Clyde_G12 EMD_Clyde_G12 src\Diesel ID_RANGE_DIESEL 5172 EMD/Clyde G12

exclude one and use the other?

[limber creek]

I'd probably exclude the Australian ones

G12s built by clyde were sold to Australia, NZ, and Hong Kong, but they also differed a fair bit from the EMD/GMD built units

globally the EMD/GMD built units would have been more common and would be more universal

[digital tapir]

the GE and EMD Export locos were highly custumisable after all

[uncut hazel]

lol. we have 2 columns in excel for regions. i think we'll need four 😄 [or i just need to intro increasingly obscure region combos]

[uncut hazel]

SOFSE 319.3 - rename to Macosa-Meinfesa J26, ... and Saudi Arabia regions
erm...that'd be Asia i think?

[uncut hazel]

in the meantime, grf updated with the above changes

[uncut hazel]

should totally include this 😄 [j/k]
(they changed an ev3 into nyc set for filming)

[digital tapir]

ohhhh my God...

I have also seen an 81-717 painted in NYC colours for filming an film in Tibilisi

[uncut hazel]

apparently Schwarzenegger was in budapest for the past weekend and they closed down one of the metro lines for his shenanigans.

[digital tapir]

to be honest having an 81-717 type in our set would be nice, this was quite an popular set in metros of the USSR and countries between USSR and GDR

[uncut hazel]

it's in the set already

717.5m

[digital tapir]

yeah, this set had a LOT of versions and subtypes....

[uncut hazel]

yup. well, we don't do liveries so one will do. there are also i think two or three versions of the E-class

[digital tapir]

Wikipedia lists that subtypes 81-717.3/714.3 • 81-572/573 • 81-572.1/573.1 • 81-572.2/573.2 operated in Warsaw alone

There were more subtypes....

[digital tapir]

adding an early model 81-717 should be easy

list from Polish wiki.... Weird, becouse it lists not only 81-717/714 but also other 81-XXX (81 is genral code for subway car in the unified russian type scheme of railway cars)

And if You ask. 81-717 is the code of the cab car, 81-714 is an accompanying intermidiete car

[uncut hazel]

hehe. i was checking Mongolia, but they don't have a metro network. (going there in a few wks.)

[digital tapir]

I dont think so... But the capital has some sort of commuter rail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaanbaatar_Railbus

[uncut hazel]

that list is prob either incomplete or only lists current vehicles. Tho I guess not because Budapest no longer has Ev3s in service but I think the 717 submodel wasn't a 5 there. 4 methinks originally and then become some moderinised thing later.

[digital tapir]

list from Polish wiki.

Likely russian wiki is more relevent on this topic

[uncut hazel]

Yup

[digital tapir]

another candidate for an metro set would be alstom metropolis

it is operated in various cities from Warsaw to Shanghai

[uncut hazel]

I'd prefer the Metropolis, we do have a fair few MMZ vehicles covering the various eras and regions whereas we don't really have the metropolis equivalent

sigh - need to nick some existing sprite for that 😄

[digital tapir]

aperendly there is also an overhead powered version....

[uncut hazel]

we have this, tho it doesn't look much like the variants i'm familiar with

[obsidian hornet]

So cursed

[uncut hazel]

I think we should reconsider the metro logic as well. It currently uses both the naming and the regions of the old operator-logic.
Except I'm not too familiar with many of them

[digital tapir]

hhhhhhhhhhhhh

I see Paris Metro....

And it operated on rubber-tired-guideways.... There is an track type like that in JP+

[uncut hazel]

I mean...do we want to introduce a whole new track type for just one train? Then we could also do 11kv, 12kv and literally a dozen other obscure ones?

[digital tapir]

no
no
no

plz no

[uncut hazel]

I was being sarcastic but yeah that's likely a "no" indeed.

[uncut hazel]

Another interesting one
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1udahny/doublestack_container_trains_are_redefining/

Also triple apparently -> https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1udahny/comment/otammap/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[digital tapir]

Speaking about metros, after all thay are electric MUs

So we should treat tham the same as normal electric MUs

there is no point for seprate metro class

[uncut hazel]

I'm not too keen on changing it now. The class naming drives the item ids and badges plus some other things. Now that it's like as is, I think it's ok, we're not gaining much by revamping it

[uncut hazel]

Unrelated but some of you seem to be familiar with African/South American/Odd locos.
ENR 1100 (Steam, Egypt) - can't find info
EFE E-28 - can't find info
EFE E-29 - can't find info
EFE E-17 - can't find info
JZ 811 (Ok this is Serbian - it has existed but no actual info I can find.)

Any knowledge of the above, espc ref manuf/model/specs?

[obsidian hornet]

https://www.scribd.com/document/65935573/motorni-vozovi

With mainland European trains it is often better to Google in German instead of English

Failing that, use the native language

[uncut hazel]

Thank you 🙂

[digital tapir]

ENR 1100 [LMS Fowler 3F / WD 0-6-0T]?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Fowler_Class_3F

on the wiki of the 3F one of the References notes Egypt

on the wiki of the Austerity_0-6-0ST there are no references of egypy
and it is an diffrent type of loco

So we can assume that this is ment to be Fowler 3F

[uncut hazel]

Yes, it's that one, as in i tagged it as such but it was more of a guess. I haven't really established it was the item in question. But in lieu of anything better, probably correct.

[digital tapir]

aperendly some operated in France too

[uncut hazel]

I'm tempted to rename it to Fowler 3F and do the regions accordingly. It was Egypt 1100 in the old set and I kinda reverse-egineered the source of it but it's prob not the smart way to go

[full swallow]

EFE E-29
Weighing at 210 tons they were rated at 4,000 horsepower each, have a maximum speed of 75 miles per hour, and were designed especially for freight and passenger operation on heavy grades. They will be used on the electrified division of the Chilean State Railways

four of these 1,676 mm gauge locomotives were delivered to Chile in 1949

Forgot the manufacturer it was General Electric Company. Built by the company's Locomotive & Car Equipment Divisions at Erie

[full swallow]

For the e-28 I have to look at the manufacturer baldwin and Westinghouse

Weight: 115 tons
Power: 2,250 HP
Operating Voltage: 3,000 V DC
Speed: 100 km/h

[obsidian hornet]

this kinda reminds me of the DR E44.5

[full swallow]

The 28 was like more obscure than the other 2

Oh yeah the 29 is based on the little joe

And the final one the e-17
Built by breda 1974 (24)
Top speed: 90 km/h
Gauge: 1676 mm
UIC axles: Bo'Bo'
Weight: 78 t

Seems like some more confusing numbering

[restive bobcat]

Fun fact, the reason I drew the E-28 is because it was originally a NYC T-motor but the sprite was rejected for being 3rd rail so I turned it into a similar engine for overhead

[uncut hazel]

Thanks for that. It's basically what we already have as GE 2-C-C-2 so i 'disabled' this one in favour of that.

Also I added this oddity while at poking things

[digital tapir]

the image on the left has the REAL arabic numbers, the one on the right has base-10 numbers but with latin-type symbols

https://preply.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Arabic-numbers.png

The logic is the same, only the symbols differ

the one on the left is (from what I can see) 1160

[obsidian hornet]

What is it?

[uncut hazel]

https://web.archive.org/web/20181222235554/http://www.ganzdata.hu/download/Ganz-MAVAG_Rail-bus_2.pdf

A few were exported to Malaysia and (resold to?) SGP

[obsidian hornet]

[uncut hazel]

eh ok. gimme a sec

[obsidian hornet]

From the link though i guess it’s a goulash pacer

[uncut hazel]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/MÁV-Baureihe_Bzmot_601
Or the Hu Wiki is a bit more verbose I guess

[full swallow]

Ok I remember vividly there was like smth like the pacer but from malaysia

Found it

Also here's a modern day pacer

[uncut hazel]

Yes, same product. Mavag/Ikarus made those for use in Hu primarily but they ended up being exported. The one on the photo is the 602 type (3 cars), there was one of that and about a dozen of 601 types (2 cars) -- tho the naming is all over the place beacuse MAV (the hu railways) named them 601 and 602 whereas Ikarus (the actual bus manufacturer) named it 725.00

[full swallow]

Interesting

Also never realize how it's just smaller than the pacer

[digital tapir]

funnly enough in the Ikarus ones the bus carbody shape is evan more visible than in the pacer

[digital tapir]

How about THIS

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3SOD9WbXdJk4fstxqWWFMzoypXDfTn_TZDkpV26zEloxfrKtaqgCT0e7t&s=10

2 minivans connected with thair backs
This was build by the polytechnics in MY town

[uncut hazel]

MAV/Ikarus had some odd experiments. https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/MÁV_Ikarus_260
I added this one as well. More for the heck ofit.

[digital tapir]

the 260 was the base version of the 200 series bus range

which was extraordinairly successfull and it was sold to literally every single market the hungurians had access

(from Canada to Taivan)

In the childhood I rode 280 (the same, but as an 18 meter bendybus) to kindergarten

[uncut hazel]

i know. i am sooooo annoyed with my parents. when i was about 14 we broke into an abandoned building and found a 1960s newspaper saying "the ikarus 200 family is now on the planning boards", prototype drawings whatnots. i obvious nicked it. my parents dumped it at somepoint.

[digital tapir]

There were evan plans for licence production in Poland back whan it was on the frawing boards, but it never came to life

[full swallow]

😭

That looks dope ngl

[digital tapir]

looks like something build in Top Gear

[uncut hazel]

also the 260

[full swallow]

I find it funny how the concept of railbuses are just buses on track

[digital tapir]

https://ilostan.forumkolejowe.pl/foto/17509.jpg

This thing had 2 layland (licence) motors and gear boxes from busses

basicly only one motor worked at time (front section)

but there is an anegdote, that once druing rain or so such vehicle could not cope with an steep gradient, so the driver told the ticket inspector to go to the 2nd section, turn on it's motor and put it in reverse...

And thay coped with the slope!

[uncut hazel]

there are stories from my parents that there is a particular slope between the Budapest and whichever nearby town and back when the old-old Ikaruses were running (like pre-2xx series), pax had to push the bus up the slope when the weather was bad, and just get off when it wasn't that bad.

[digital tapir]

Most economical way to drive Autosan H9?

Put it in neutral and coast whanever possible
Some say that 1/4th of milage of these was on neutral

[full swallow]

Peru ones are ugly ngl

[uncut hazel]

iirc actually it wasn't the base. i think it was the 250 -> https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikarus#A_200-as_család [you'll prob need to translate], followed by various prototypes of 220, 242 and eventually the 260

[full swallow]

I wonder why there's no electric double deck railbus

[digital tapir]

generally on lines with low passenger numbers are not electrified.
And generally thay tend to have platforms long enough to use an trailer

[full swallow]

Our only double deck railbus

[uncut hazel]

I may be wrong but it might be in the set from old times? Unsure

[digital tapir]

The ONLY other double-decker single motor railcar I know

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F16-years-ago-on-february-19th-2009-colorado-railcars-final-v0-q76jvzkfn0ke1.png%3Fwidth%3D1024%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D0618c30f0127a698e849c1b98b5873cd7f146b97

[uncut hazel]

My guess would be that if you need to move that many people, the development and manuf costs you can just send a short EMU perhaps

[full swallow]

Fun fact some of them was a dmu

[full swallow]

It would be funny seeing a your train slowly coming into the platform and it's a bus

[digital tapir]

indeed

[uncut hazel]

Lol. Just kidding but -> new category in the set -> maglevbus. Ikarus 260M 😄

Actually the "turbobus" is already a maglevbus in the set.

[digital tapir]

AND this monstrucity in our set (whan it was drawn and added to the OG set) predates the hyperloop nonsense

[uncut hazel]

Apart from what i'd imagine financially being a terrible idea to develop and run in real life, there isn't anything wrong with it per se. I mean when the {insert any new technology} came out, it was terribly expensive (idk, computers, anyone?) whereas now it is cheap. So now the concept of a superfast low-cap maglev vehicle is stupid but perhaps if mankind doesn't otherwise obliterate itself in 100 years, it'll be cheap and omnipresent.

[full swallow]

Oh just the tech bros trying to defund the railway bc they hate it

[digital tapir]

It would make more sense to make it apear after freight maglevs in the set

Just as railbusses normally work on lines that are mostly-freight but also carry some passengers but not enough to justyfy an full-sized trainset

[full swallow]

Well we have more nonsense stuff

Basically a pod that goes 500 kph on conventional track

[digital tapir]

thay advertised this as new and innovative, while it is just an linear motor system, which exists since a long time

also whay there is an BKG1 in the distance.....

[full swallow]

Well tech bros

Also the railways in eastern Europe running the most horrid thing

[digital tapir]

I wonder what do You mean?

[digital tapir]

the iron

https://www.htp.org.pl/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/fot.-1-1.jpg

[full swallow]

Simple example

Well tbf they are heavily underfunded

[uncut hazel]

V63s pulling the super new ICs are always hilarious. That said the outgoing Hu gov't did a whole lot of nothing about getting the railways into decent shape.

[full swallow]

Btw the things that are in that Pic is a freight locomotive pulling an international cross-border train with 2 suburban cars 1 repainted intercity car from the 70s and 3 Slovakia intercity cars

The on time for the intercity branch was at before merging with the suburban rail was 32% 😭

Probably worst if we count the delays after 5 minutes

[digital tapir]

at least thay are on good track by re-consolidating the railways

[uncut hazel]

Ah, don't. MAV, at the behest of the gov't dropped their train-tracking website altogether because the stats were so bad that nobody could bear to look at them. Instead of actually doing something about being on time.

[full swallow]

The Serbia to hungary line is the biggest fraud

[uncut hazel]

All on Chinese loans that have been made state secret for 3 decades

Not EU compatible, has to run full manual

No pax service either.

[full swallow]

Wdym that the track only allow 160 kph signals from the 40s cus the Chinese can't even fix the bs and cost more per mile than high speed rail 😭

[uncut hazel]

The two Hu experts that had any knowledge of how the chinese systems work quit their jobs because they've had enough. So now there isn't anyone. That said it matters little, the systems are just incompatible, end of sentence.

But basically instead of the line having EU train safety standards, they ahve Chinese. Which are not workable with EU trains at all.

So they have to drive full manual and slow as f..k

[full swallow]

Oh yeah seeing how the line was a disaster they did a classic and said the mainline between Austria and hungary was in a horrendous state to get attention away from that

[uncut hazel]

Ok, name a line in hungary that is not in a disasterous state. I challenge ya 😉

[full swallow]

The rail jet only being able to go 80 kph on the entire hungary mainline is so sad 😭

[uncut hazel]

I mean I no longer live there, moved 20 yrs ago but I still read some of the news and when it comes to transportation outside Budapest, it's a right mess. More than usual (in most countries) that is.

The new transport minister is a huge rail geek tho. Plus hopefully a more sensible government too.

[full swallow]

Welp before everything gone downhill they actually made a very good train

The bdvmot on the right and 434 on the left

[digital tapir]

this was made back in the days whan smaller local manufacturers existed, nowerdays there are like 5 manufacturers that sell the same design of train with minor differences to all operators

which is funny, becouse we came back to the same manufacturing situation as at the dawn of the railways

[uncut hazel]

Ganz-MAVAG had a long history of great train manufacturing but when the communist block fell apart they didn't have the money or expertise to survive on their own without state funding and a lot of stuff was privatised anyway, so stuff fell apart. Same for Ikarus. They were one of the biggest, if not the biggest bus manufactuerer at a time. Then disappeared over the course of no more than 10 years.

[full swallow]

Would love to see them return

[uncut hazel]

bdvmot is in the set

[full swallow]

But the current goverment is pro transport so probably see a glowup

[uncut hazel]

They won't. Part of it is that the names are now owned by various international entities and that the experise is literally dead of old age. People that knew how to build trains in the 80s are now dead or almost dead and their expertise would be of little use with tech being 50 years into the future

Ikarus has been split and sold to various French/Chinese/Hungarian/Hell-i-know-what entities. Factories long closed.

[full swallow]

Which is sad seeing how far the fallen

[uncut hazel]

MAVAG, no clue but I assume even worse.

actually, they closed even before the soviets left

[obsidian hornet]

Always thought these are cool

[obsidian hornet]

Denmark had them too

Kinda

They’re steam powered

[full swallow]

Anyway I just want 1 small addition that is a narrow gauge steam locomotive that goes over 100 kph

[full swallow]

What a funny steam rail motor

[obsidian hornet]

Cursed

[digital tapir]

90something would be fine?

If so, take something from JP+

[full swallow]

Well there's four locos
The sar class 25 from 2cc ng at 110kph
And there's 3 from jp+

[restive bobcat]

A C53 or something would be a good addition

[uncut hazel]

https://github.com/OpenTTD-JPplus/JPengines/blob/modular/gfx/steam/jnr_c53.png <-- that?

[digital tapir]

looked at the metros

and

-Helsinki metro should be broad gauge (not standard)
-MMZ metros should be for both standard and broad gauge
-AEG D series came to PyongYang as used from Berlin, change city to Berlin and change intro date to 1953

likely there are more things to be changed

[uncut hazel]

hmm mmz -> not sure the a and d were exported?
also tempted to just remove some of the namings and merge others. e.g budapest ev and prague ecs are basically the same. the 717 was exported so that should not be just 'moscow'. the 720 unsure, tho i could check; 740 also

[digital tapir]

Indeed, serieses A and D were not exported, leave tham as broad gauge only

[uncut hazel]

ok wiki says 720 were broad only, 740 standard/broad

new names - going to excl the ecs because it's duplicate.

[digital tapir]

I wonder what licence is the xUSSR set https://github.com/George-VB/xussrset

becouse if it is GPL or something like that we could use some sprites (after modifications)

eg for the DR1A

[uncut hazel]

if only there was a docs folder 😉

[digital tapir]

I am not familiar with software licences my friend

I just hate piracy and unauthorised redistribution

[uncut hazel]

CC attribution (this particular one anyway) basically says do anything you want just don't make money on it and name the originals.

..and make the outcome also be CC attrib same type

[full swallow]

The Hudson with a centipede tender looks funny

[loud thistle]

all I'm gonna ask for this revival project is for the love of god redraw the 5000 2-10-4

it doesn't REMOTELY look anything like the real Madame Queen

[obsidian hornet]

Iirc no one on this project knows how to draw, better do it yourself, unless it is North American or Australian then maybe ask Ragin

[full swallow]

It's American so ragin maybe could draw it ?

Or maybe saving it for the narp steam addition

[uncut hazel]

I pinged them in the other chat, see what the response is 😉

[full swallow]

But yeah some loco does look very old

[uncut hazel]

@limber creek https://github.com/nemethviktor/2ccts_revival/blob/master/gfx%2FSteam%2FBaldwin_5000_Madame_Queen.png

Just pinging you here, easier. Context above, current sprite linked here.

[limber creek]

Oh okay

I probably wouldn't be able to do it for a while since I'm not in the mood for steam locomotives

But I'd probably end up doing it ir something similar for my American set

[uncut hazel]

No rush, when you get around to it, any time. And thanks 😉

[blissful nest]

hi, i just downloaded the most recent version of the grf out of curiosity and noticed theres no Venezuelan trains yet, so i put info i gathered online in this doc with images of the trains

maybe someone more expert on finding thing will provide more accurate info though 😅

[limber creek]

Easy, I'll do it when I get back onto steamers for my Australian set

[uncut hazel]

I'm out today but will have a look.
Btw the grf on GitHub is a bit dated. We've since renamed items to manufacturers designations and extended the region logic, a fallout of which is that we don't have countries anymore. There's a Google drive link someplace further up plus the same in the readme that points to wherever nightly build there is most current.

[full swallow]

Yooo a bus

https://x.com/intent/tweet?in_reply_to=2055918491807658421

Gardelegen-Haldensleben-Weferlinger Eisenbahn double-decker railbus one-off conversion

[uncut hazel]

U live in Venezuela? All okay? (well, stupid question, but you get what I mean)
Also I've added a generic Alstom Metropolis vehicle (using a sprite from Budapest, admittedly) and made it available more or less anywhere inc SA

[blissful nest]

Yea, at least My zone suffer little to no damage but i don't wifi conection ATM

[uncut hazel]

https://telex.hu/g7/kozelet/2026/03/02/budapest-belgrad-muszaki-problemak-biztositoberendezes-vonatbefolyasolas-tehervonatok

This is in Hungarian but you can Google translate it, it's a decent write up on what's (not) happening on the Budapest Belgrade line and how f...kd the whole construction was/is

[full swallow]

Oh yeah it's a clusterfuck

[ashen peak]

@uncut hazel you asked over on the forums whether Jamaica was north or South America for the purposes of the set. Follow Football/Soccer? Concacaf vs Conmebol?

Jamaica/Caribbean is in Concacaf (aka North America) as is Central America. Just a thought!

[uncut hazel]

Haha thanks for that, admittedly I don't follow any sports but it sounds reasonable logic. I'll add it to NA.

[ashen peak]

Haha that’s fair. It was just a categorisation that only had north or South America that I thought fit the bill haha

[uncut hazel]

Added. (not sure if it was you in the forums who asked, it's just that the forums are pretty dumb wrt moden functions like screenshot insert so if i don't have to go through them it saves me a headache.)

[uncut hazel]

I was thinking... I never really got the hang of brake van but now that there is some pushpull capability overall, would it make sense to add a pushpull van (generic) so that one could be attached to cargo carrying trains, optionally? (no capacity, no speed limit etc.)
Or make b.v. be p-p?
On a third thought....I can't find the brake van now. Maybe I just imagined it.

[digital tapir]

wasnt it called service car?

[uncut hazel]

ah indeed it was.

dayum them trains all be lookin' the same! /s 😄

anyhow. thoughts on pushpull?

[restive bobcat]

IMO, brake vans aren't driving cabs and shouldn't have push pull

[uncut hazel]

Noted - I don't presume there is a real generic sort of dvt solution for freight vehicles?

[restive bobcat]

No, freight doesn't do that irl, unless of course you just put a loco on each end

[ashen peak]

It wasn’t me that asked but thanks for adopting the system I suggested haha.

[uncut hazel]

i've re-templated all the coaches to be the same visual format and did away with the separate purchase files for these.
while at it, i realised the Jake's Talgo vehicles had never been coded as last-carriage-different. Basically the visuals were in the file but had been totally ignored till now.

[restive bobcat]

Ah yeah the Talgo is a bit of a tricky one

Technically the first and last coach should be different

[uncut hazel]

I'll amend, though with the random 50% flip for coaches it might still look off occasionally

[uncut hazel]

Someone should totally add this https://www.reddit.com/r/BitchImATrain/s/MEXFvt0rNu

[digital tapir]

hmmmm if we got the 1st and last coach diffrent logic for the talgo I may try drawing the goerlitz stock

[uncut hazel]

Currently it's just the last that's different but making the first the same isn't a problem, however i think that for those the random flip should be disabled, just unsure how.

[digital tapir]

also we may modify the talgo graphics into some german MUs

[restive bobcat]

I wanted to include some observation cars too, in which case only the last coach would be different. But yes, random flipping would have to be disabled for those

[uncut hazel]

atm we have in the item part

graphics {
        purchase: spriteset_mu_coach_gen2_steel_regional_coach_purchase;
        default: switch_mu_coach_gen2_steel_regional_coach_livery;
        // Random flip for variety
        reverse_build_probability: return 50;
    }

so that'd need changing. (this is a question by the way -> how?)

[digital tapir]

https://www.loco-info.com/data/photos/DB_VT_10.5.jpg

Aperently there were 2 of these

one as an daytime train with seats, and one as an sleeper train

[restive bobcat]

Just add a switch for reverse_build_probability, return 0 if vehicle is at the end of train

[digital tapir]

an 3rd unit as an mail train (!) was in the plans

Also, an goods-carrying railcar

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/DR_10004.png

[uncut hazel]

this ok?

    # Add random flip
    if template_amendment_code in ["A", "U"] and is_true(
        row["VEHICLE_FLAG_TRAIN_HAS_CAB"]
    ):
        lastval = 100
    elif template_amendment_code in ["S"]:
        lastval = 0
    else:
        lastval = 50

    nml_code.append(f"""            
// Flip switch
switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, switch_{vid}_flip_probability, position_in_consist_from_end) {{
    0:       return {lastval}
    default: return 50
}}""")

A/U are DT-able, S is for the last carriage (talgo) -- again we're not currently accounting for 'first' carriages at the moment.

[full swallow]

Looks funny

[uncut hazel]

Hmm i'm quite sure my above thing isn't working properly

[restive bobcat]

Should be 1: return 0

oh wait nvm

[uncut hazel]

yeah, that too. but for the time being i'm trying to get the last carriage thing

[restive bobcat]

I think the spritesheet might not be in the right order

would it help if the front parts and rear parts were on separate rows?

because currently the "last carriage" row has a mixture of front and rear parts which get randomised, I think

[uncut hazel]

yes, they are randomised indeed. so if we had 3 rows, normal/first/last, that might be easier

[restive bobcat]

ok I'll retemplate it

[digital tapir]

maybe re-use parts of an MU code?

becouse basicly arcticulated coach rakes are MUs without thair own motors

[restive bobcat]

That's not how it works, MUs are coded quite differently

[digital tapir]

in the MUs the front coach is some sort of an engine from the game's perspective?

which can attatch only universal MU coaches

[uncut hazel]

attachment rules are defined separately. i had a huge struggle with getting those sorted so i'm a bit too familiar with those :/ 😄

[digital tapir]

in this case we should have an restriction to make the train unable to leave the depot is there is an single (not connected to other one, passenger or mail) talgo(or other arcticulated) coach in the consist

[uncut hazel]

erm....you're welcome to code it. 😄 - i wouldn't know where to start!

[restive bobcat]

OK, here's the retemplated talgo with mail version. I did normal-last-first because there's also going to be ones with just normal-last so it won't leave a gap

[restive bobcat]

That is overcomplicated, better to just automatically make the train look right using graphics switches

[digital tapir]

theorethically we can make the arcticulated coach rakes MU types, with thair own universal MU wagon, but without power in the head car, and with restrictions to have at least one universal MU wagon per front coach of the rake, AND with restrictions that it requires at least one other engine to operate

[restive bobcat]

That wouldn't even work, you can't make unpowered dual headed vehicles

[digital tapir]

make 1hp?

[restive bobcat]

That would be a ridiculous way to do things when a much simpler solution exists

why are you still going on about this

Coupling restrictions are bad and should be avoided unless necessary (i.e. MU wagons)

If you want to force realism for a talgo set, an articulated fixed consist would work too

[digital tapir]

so, we will just use sprite replacement

[restive bobcat]

The tricky part though is when you mix pax and mail talgo coaches. It won't recognise the other as the same type

you could probably make it work with cb36?

[uncut hazel]

nah, it's tempalte based. so these (and any future ones where the order of first and last matter) are whatever template 04S, and then if the items is in the last carriage, take x else take y. (well, first carriage, take z) -- no need to overcomplicate it

[restive bobcat]

Ah, you're using position_in_consist rather than position_in_vehid_chain. How do you account for the locomotives then?

[uncut hazel]

I guess I'm assuming there is only one of them
Alternatively we can do something like if the item before or after has a different id class of ID_COACHES then do something, but i think that's where things become very complex coding-wise

[restive bobcat]

Yes, when one vehicle needs to look at another's properties then it's cb36 time

Best avoided unless necessary 😉

oops, I meant var61, not cb36

got them mixed because Andy keeps going on about cb36

[uncut hazel]

switch(FEAT_TRAINS, PARENT, switch_{vid}_position_check, [STORE_TEMP(position_in_consist_from_end, 0x10F), var[0x61, 0, 0x0000FFFF, 0xC6]]) {
    ID_RANGE_COACHES:                      switch_{vid}_middle_livery;
    default:                                    switch_{vid}_head_livery;
}

Like that? Tho' it's ignoring the "last" element and just falls to the "first" element atm.

mmm
ai says

/// STEP 1: CHECK THE ITEM BEHIND (TAIL DETERMINATION)
/// If absolute last in consist OR item behind is not a coach -> pull tail
switch(FEAT_TRAINS, PARENT, switch_{vid}_check_behind, position_in_consist_from_end) {{
    0: switch_{vid}_tail_livery;
    default: switch(FEAT_TRAINS, PARENT, switch_{vid}_evaluate_behind, [STORE_TEMP(1, 0x10F), var[0x61, 0, 0x0000FFFF, 0xC6]]) {{
        ID_RANGE_COACHES: switch_{vid}_middle_livery; 
        default:          switch_{vid}_tail_livery;   // Behind is an engine/loco or end -> Tail
    }};
}}

/// STEP 2: MASTER ENTRY CHECK - LOOKS AHEAD (HEAD VS MIDDLE DETERMINATION)
/// If absolute first in consist -> cannot look ahead, must be Head livery
switch(FEAT_TRAINS, PARENT, switch_{vid}_position_check, position_in_consist) {{
    0: switch_{vid}_head_livery;
    default: switch(FEAT_TRAINS, PARENT, switch_{vid}_evaluate_ahead, [STORE_TEMP(-1, 0x10F), var[0x61, 0, 0x0000FFFF, 0xC6]]) {{
        ID_RANGE_COACHES: switch_{vid}_check_behind;     // Ahead is coach, go check behind for Tail/Middle split
        default:          switch_{vid}_head_livery;     // Ahead is locomotive or empty -> Head
    }};
}}
""")

[restive bobcat]

Here's a wagon I coded that has front and end bits https://github.com/OpenTTD-JPplus/JPengines/blob/modular/src/pax/12_series.pnml

[digital tapir]

Huh, I was just tinking about adding some more coaches and wagons in order to devide tham for gauges, just like engines

[restive bobcat]

Some JP+ coaches would flesh out the narrow gauge selection nicely

especially because some were exported to other Asian countries

[uncut hazel]

that works, as long as they are all the same type
ie mail is different and seems not be accounted for properly in the first line.
tbh i think it might stay as-is. whatever gemini was giving me didn't work and unless we manage to work out some vehicle id-range-based logic, i think not too many people will be bothered.
i'll add the flip logic to the middle carriages tho, atm, it's been set to zero for testing purposes

[restive bobcat]

Yeah it's probably fine, it already looks so much better with the correct axle positions 🙂

[uncut hazel]

One (or both) of you were asking if they could make a sprite where either the front or the back but not both are special. for sake of simplicity, just copy the nonspecial to the special.
ie in what Jake did (reattached), if you had special last and the middle was the same as the front, just duplicate it.

otherwise i'd need yet another template or two

[restive bobcat]

Ah that makes sense actually

So like this?

[uncut hazel]

Yes because following from what the JP set does basically we evaulate if something is in the first/last/other position and do things accordingly. The game wouldn't know that the visual itself is the same across say first+middle, it'd just return what ends up being the same visual read from a different place.
otherwise i'd need logic coded for if first is special but others not; if last is special but others not; if first-and-last-are-special and so on that's at least 3 new templates resulting in more code and more files. we already have some 30+ templates, though relatively few are actually common. but the coaches/wagons, which mostly fall into "template 04" go from 04A to 04U at the moment. (mostly down to the various cargo wagon oddities.)

[restive bobcat]

Yeah fair enough, in JP+ I tend to do bespoke formations for every coach type lol

Anyway I'll make a github issue for the new observation cars

[uncut hazel]

Are those pushpull or first/last different?

[restive bobcat]

They're observation cars, not push pull

[digital tapir]

looks nice

[uncut hazel]

im still trying to figure where the extra pixel has disappeared from the ic purchase tho

[digital tapir]

the coach is moved 1 pixel right

[uncut hazel]

my bad

yes just noticed

i even have an indicator to adhere to...

[digital tapir]

Special formation coach types use the same templates as normal coaches?

[uncut hazel]

like the ones above? 04S please

git is quite up to date atm