f1-technical

[smoky trout]

So never ran a race ?

[short ether]

no, they did a few FPs but it was never allowed to register a time for the race, so we don't really know how good of a concept that was

[smoky trout]

Okay

[wicked hare]

isn't it giving it more weight

[smoky trout]

Well it would have been compensated by the downforce

[short ether]

It was reported at 585kg, the Brabham of that year being 580kg

[wicked hare]

sheeesh

[smoky trout]

So it would have crush the competition (Probably)

[short ether]

they were scared it would at least

[smoky trout]

Yup

[feral vessel]

It was also the second car to be constructed expansively with Carbon Fibre after the MP4/1 to make its own aerodynamics convenient

[limber sluice]

ah jee they had a habit back then to do that

the bt46B

the lotus double chassis

[toxic saddle]

why does that look like like 2010 merc

[abstract pawn]

cuz it probably is

[mortal lynx]

are we talking about a useless shit DRS?

with just.....that??

[short ether]

this isn't what the channel is about

[native tulip]

Use #f1-hq-photos-and-videos is you want to share stuff like this

[tropic shoal]

👍

[limber sluice]

is there any news of the rumoured new honda spec

honda can keep it under wraps if they like i think

[raw nest]

The upgraded engine? They will bring it to Baku, there’s nothing about it

[crimson granite]

No they're saying that they're running the engine underpowered cause of some complications

So they're not running it to the highest capability

[raw nest]

Yes but its fixed for Baku😁

[crimson granite]

ooh very nice

[mortal lynx]

oh?

[primal condor]

Ajerbaistappen weekend

[wicked hare]

what is with ham pulling back the stearing wheal

[feral vessel]

Where have you seen that specifically ?

Last year's Mercedes ?

[wicked hare]

yes

austria

[wicked hare]

austria

last year i think

[feral vessel]

If it is DAS : the DAS system was controlled by Pulling and Pushing the Steering wheel, it changes the alignment of the front wheels, and when it does it, it heats the tyres.

[wicked hare]

ohh

[green folio]

Detailed explanation here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxKhi6Qsrog

[wicked hare]

so it have more speed when entering a turn

[pine viper]

How do diffusers help aerodynamically? What do hey specifically do

[cursive wraith]

nono

lot of people misunderstood DAS

With the change in toe it allows heat to get in faster for the tyres

it was just meant for heat purposes

even if they used it in corners the corner perf would prolly be worse

the toe angle is facing outside

[smoky trout]

DAS Is useless while turning

They don't use it in corners

They use it only on straights

To heat the tires

[zenith pumice]

DAS literally didn’t give Mercedes a huge advantage, it was minimal

[smoky trout]

It changes the toe angle

[crimson granite]

just tyre heating thats it

[zenith pumice]

Mainly during SC periods to keep the tyres warm

[crimson granite]

no aero advantage

[wicked hare]

so it's like an extra DRS but you can use it when ever you want

[smoky trout]

NO dude

It has no aero advantage

[wicked hare]

i know but it gives more speed like drs do

[smoky trout]

Just makes all the area of the front tire touch the ground

[zenith pumice]

No it’s not

[wicked hare]

oh

[smoky trout]

Nope

[zenith pumice]

What “speed” does it give, it’s literally used for changing tyre angle to keep it warm during SC periods

[wicked hare]

more down force

[smoky trout]

Oof

[zenith pumice]

No, it literally had NO aero impact

[wicked hare]

ok

[zenith pumice]

Like, 0 aero impact

[smoky trout]

Just changes the tire angle to get heat into tires
@wicked hare

[wicked hare]

ok

[smoky trout]

only on straights

[zenith pumice]

They used it during SC periods

[smoky trout]

or on straights mid race too whenever they need the heat

[cursive wraith]

if there was less heat in the tyres then yea maybe

mostly durings sc restarts they used

fans misunderstood the whole damn thing

thinking DAS is like DRS and gives more speed

[short ether]

This is kinda wrong. While it doesn't give a huge advantage overall, it allows Mercedes to use a full cornering toe angle rather than a compromise between straights and corner scrub, because when they pull the wheel it just makes it dead straight anyway

[smoky trout]

So that is correct

[short ether]

No

It's not correcr

[smoky trout]

DAS does nothing while turning dude

[short ether]

Because iyou can use more toe angle specifically for corners

It's an indirect benefit, but a benefit nonetheless

[smoky trout]

All F1 cars have a toe angle, DAS just removes the toe angle while on the straights, So it does not help directly in cornering and turning

[short ether]

Not directly, no

[smoky trout]

All it does is help heat up the tires

[near ether]

Ppl still discussing DAS in 2021 oh boi

[smoky trout]

So my statement stands as true

[cursive wraith]

[short ether]

Fun fact: F1/Brembo is considering moving from Carbon Carbon Brakes to Carbon Ceramics

why?

[smoky trout]

Those are less powerful ?

[short ether]

It creates less carbon dust, with better rain performance too, although cursed coz it's a tad heavier

Again, Road relevancy move

[raw nest]

They can withstand more temperature as far as i know but lose performance in one lap comparison to the current ones

[smoky trout]

What is carbon dust ?

[short ether]

So brake dust, when the brakes are used at such heat where the surface layers start to shave away

With carbon carbon discs, the brakes will not oxidise, until it reaches about like 1,100-1,200°c and then they will violently oxidise and drop a ton of brake dust off, seen most recently that I can remember with the red bulls at Chinda

[granite tundra]

you can see it at pretty much every race

[smoky trout]

I see

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/665896970019143690.png?v=1&size=64

[raw nest]

Like that

Huh? Why a link?

Then i will delete it

Better

[soft shadow]

Don't forget Leclerc's Monaco DNF in 2018, that was a carbon puff bonanza

[raw nest]

Yea i believe he didn't do enough management and his brakes were pretty shaped off so it was just a matter of time when they stopped pulling

[short ether]

Also that's when they stop working, because the heat/dust makes a boundary layer that absorbs the squeeze

[short ether]

so when an F1 car or HHybrid/EV as a whole charges, but I say F1 coz it doesn't seem they have any separate unit for it, do they just ram up the resistance to work like an electric brake combined with the rear brakes?

[upper ivy]

is that kimi at spa?

[raw nest]

I don't think i got the question right but an f1 car saves brake energy from the rear brakes. That energy then is obviously saved in the ES and given to the MGU's

[short ether]

No but...

[raw nest]

It is

[short ether]

There isn't any recharging units on the Brakes themselves

They're just brakes

[raw nest]

Ah i understand

[short ether]

So I'm assuming the way they do it is just jack up the engine braking by turning up the alternator-type drag the MGU-K basically is

[upper ivy]

kinda?

the brakes definitely are designed with the MGU-K's braking power in mind; e.g. in Canada 2014 both Mercedes had MGU-K issues which lead to overheating brakes

[short ether]

Right okay...

I guess this is almost just confirming my own ideas but... I wanna know if there's something I'm missing

[raw nest]

On the rear brakes there is a kind of an motor unit collecting it, wether that or some kind of a line leading to all the components

Must be a huge huge task for engine suppliers these days

[short ether]

... Ugh I need to talk to peeps that I already have a wall of questions for oof

[short ether]

Where's TooLow when we need him

[granite tundra]

no there isn't, the MGU-K is connected to the crankshaft, not the brakes

[raw nest]

Did i say something about the K? I said a motor unit collecting and delevering it to either K or the ES

[granite tundra]

..that doesn't exist

[crimson granite]

whats ES?

[granite tundra]

and the only two components that can deliver to the ES are the MGU-K or MGU-H

where are you getting this magical extra ERS component from?

[crimson granite]

so what happened to Mercedes in Canada 2014?

wasnt there an issue with the brakes cause something happened to the MGU-K?

[granite tundra]

iirc this is controlled through the K's clutch, which automatically engages if you lift off the throttle

but i'd need to double check because i'm not quite sure how the MGU is mechanically connected downstream of the power unit

and my interpretation of the regs is a little fuzzy on this

[short ether]

It has to be engine geared so

This is why I'm all Hmmy

[granite tundra]

yeah i'm a little unsure as well

my initial understanding was that it's mechanically linked and engine geared as you said, but it's clutched so you can just bypass it when you need to?

not sure if the resistance of the K itself can be controlled

surely it must be

[short ether]

... The MGU-K is clutched?

[granite tundra]

well i've found exactly one source that says it is

so idk

https://thewptformula.com/2014/03/26/analysis-a-brief-study-of-the-kinetic-energy-recovery-system-mgu-k/#comments

"The MGU is geared to the crankshaft of the ICE via a continuously variable transmission and a small clutch."
this was the assumption i've always been operating under

[short ether]

Tri phased current yum

[granite tundra]

but 5.2.3 states that it has to be permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch

however, as per 9.2 you can have clutches for the sole purpose of ERS management

[short ether]

I don't understand why it would be clutched anyway

[raw nest]

Very complicated. Most cars who drive Hybrid and in Motorsport as well have a motor unit near the brakes that can collect that energy and transfer it to the components, that's what i meant earlier on but i wasn't 100% sure on an F1 car

[raw nest]

Energy Storage

[short ether]

Basically F1 has decided, in a bid to be more road relevant, to further alienate interested people with weird, precise names for things

ES? Battery
MGU-K? KERS, or just a fat Alternator/Starter
MGU-H? A Turbo Alternator/Starter

[short ether]

ICE? Engine

Like bro

[cursive wraith]

oof

[short ether]

There's no need to change names like that bruh

Especially when the overall thing is a power unit

[mortal lynx]

"slow down...slow down...."

"we lost an MGU-K slow down."

[dense kayak]

just wondering, when they say " we're thinking of target +3 "

[raw nest]

Target Laptime +3 tenths

[dense kayak]

does that mean they're going to pit 3 laps after their target end of the stint

oh

ahh that makes sense lol thanks 😄

[smoky trout]

Oh wow, I did not know that until now

[raw nest]

Its very important for team and driver to have that time and in most cases it means that. they rarely talk about tyres on radio in that detail

[smoky trout]

What is a target lap time though ?

Different for all teams or is it like a set reference lap ?

[raw nest]

Target laptime in race to aim for the driver

[smoky trout]

So different for each team ?

[raw nest]

Different 20 times mostly

[smoky trout]

Okay

[granite tundra]

??????

no it doesn't

target +/- normally refers to the fuel delta or stint length

[raw nest]

Nah the engineer often says target -2 in order to catch up in front and to the target word laptime sometimes

[granite tundra]

https://www.racefans.net/2019/09/25/vettel-vs-leclerc-complete-ferrari-singapore-team-radio-transcript/
ferrari singapore transcript- target times given as xx.x seconds

https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/11/well-discuss-what-went-wrong-hamilton-and-verstappen-team-radio-transcript-analysis/
monaco team radio- "target minus two" for either stint/fuel

[granite tundra]

that makes no sense

why would "target + 3" translate into target laptime + 0.3s?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2286481-top-10-f1-team-radio-messages-of-the-2014-season

"target plus 02"- more fuel

[dense kayak]

woah i came back to a long ass discusion LOL

[raw nest]

This could go long on don't worry

[granite tundra]

you get given target lap times, but pretty much never in that format

[raw nest]

"Target +3 for fuel" example okay? =Driver drives round about 3 tenths slower in order to save fuel

[granite tundra]

??

no..

"Fuel now minus zero two. We need more and more fuel saving, Sebastian,"

it's a fuel delta, not target lap time

[raw nest]

Btw from 2014 the regs around the engine changed pretty much

[granite tundra]

and?

[raw nest]

i won't take that as the thing to listen to really

[granite tundra]

see the context here

bottas is asked to extend the stint 8 laps and feeds back with the state the tyres are in

[raw nest]

That's about the stint then

[granite tundra]

"This is a long stint, we’re going to be target plus 15"
long stint- extending the target

i have never seen or heard "target + x" as a single digit number to refer to lap times

[raw nest]

But if the engineer says target - 3 for example and ask the driver if he can do that then it's about pace

[granite tundra]

what?

“Prior to the race the engineers will decide on the mix between fuel and electricity over one lap and we will have a target – or fuel – ‘budget’ we will need to monitor to ensure we get to the end of the race. The engine engineers will monitor the rate of fuel consumption (both carbon and electric) and the driver will be told over the radio if he is over or under the fuel delta. He will have to manually adjust or alter the style to take this into account.”

https://www.racefans.net/2014/02/11/team-radio-themes-change-2014/

[raw nest]

Just nevermind this here it's a nosense really. The engineer often says Target Laptime if the laptime is meant to finish it of really

[granite tundra]

you are wrong..

please check your facts before coming into this channel

and don't mislead people

[raw nest]

Mate honestly

Im in F1 from 2011

I have some good knowlegde about whats going and whats not

[granite tundra]

so what? i've been watching since 2006

[short ether]

doesn't mean you can't make mistakes

[granite tundra]

do you think that confers some sort of knowledge advantage?

i've given you multiple examples and the context for why what you said is wrong

[raw nest]

Do you say yes or no to that?

[granite tundra]

as well as an explanation of what it actually means

[granite tundra]

of course not.. because that's what i said in the first place

"target + 3" is categorically not related to target laptime

a target laptime is normally given as xx.x

and as a straight target, not a 'modifier' as a pre-existing one

[raw nest]

Great for you then. In Laptime i got Baku 2017 for example. Was the last stint so stint is away from that. Engineer tells -2 target, question? Driver says okay but tyres will go off quicker. I get what you mean really but for me it's sometimes that and that

[granite tundra]

because -2 is a fuel target..

and could you share the full 2017 transcript? i don't remember seeing that conversation for 2017

[raw nest]

Laptime increased by 0.247 after that the laptime 0.046 diff to the last time. That's why i think laptime. I understand fuel as well tho

[granite tundra]

what you 'think' doesn't matter

i've given you the sources and context explaining it

can you provide the transcript for baku?

[raw nest]

F1 TV Pro from 4 years ago yes

But is it still available? Don't think so

[granite tundra]

well the transcript i'm mentioning doesn't mention that at all

[raw nest]

Well that's the source i would take that out

[granite tundra]

it doesn't matter though, it's a fuel (or sometimes stint length) delta, NOT target time

[raw nest]

Alright. Then i guess Target Laptime is Target Laptime and Target something is Target fuel or stint then. Just had some examples of the laptimes and yes that's why i THOUGHT why cause that made much sense to me

[granite tundra]

all due respect, this is f1-technical and i saw 2 people accept the explanation that it was a target time

[raw nest]

But hey am not saying your things are trash

[granite tundra]

please put the time in to do your research and make sure you're correct in this channel

because it gets frustrating and misleading otherwise

[raw nest]

Well you made it clearer than me but Target for me was always laptime and i could see it so

[granite tundra]

which is wrong.. and ended up misleading people in what's meant to be the 'serious' channel to talk about f1

[raw nest]

It is serious tho no? I wouldnt write bs on purpose

[granite tundra]

it's not serious when you're wrong on a topic that can easily be fact checked..

[raw nest]

My fact was the laptime you can see going after the number

[granite tundra]

and a simple google search could show you that was an incorrect interpretation

[raw nest]

Well i would more take F1 TV to me and see on Data but ok

Thought that would be enough

[granite tundra]

not when you've totally failed to cite any of your sources..

[raw nest]

Well i told you Baku 17 but the data of that race is gone no? so i can't show it to you

[granite tundra]

no it isn't, the transcript is available online

and it doesn't match what you were saying

[raw nest]

Where?

[granite tundra]

again.. literally a 2 second google search

https://www.racefans.net/2017/06/30/2017-azerbaijan-grand-prix-team-radio-transcript/

[raw nest]

That's team radio. I mean laptimes sectors everything

[granite tundra]

and the team radio you were talking about wasn't on there

[raw nest]

Give me a second

It was Lap 36 somewhere there i can remember. Is that really everything???

[granite tundra]

idk

you're the one basing your interpretation on something that you're not able to easily reference or provide for other people

[raw nest]

Yes but i would

It covers great but on some laps there are just 3 radios

Well considering no drama that's alright but there must be more

[granite tundra]

but you're missing my point here

my issue is with the fact you're basing this interpretation off of a single piece of information that you can't even access again, and the interpretation ends up being incorrect and misleading people

whereas you could have taken 10 seconds to verify that what you were saying was right (which it wasn't- and it's easy to find articles explaining why)

i don't think that's an unreasonable expectation for f1-technical

[raw nest]

It's the coms over radio over severe years. I always thought it's laptime but you corrected it so whats the point even? I didn't write a whole book about it. For me it was day clear

[granite tundra]

it was day clear but it was wrong.. that's the problem

[zenith pumice]

Generally if your argument rests on one source then it might not be such a good argument xd

[raw nest]

Yes my mistake then

[granite tundra]

plus not to just go after you or anything, but you did this yesterday when saying there were motors on the rear brakes

which is again something you can fact check very easily

[raw nest]

I can send you a pic about it hold on

[granite tundra]

please, just make the effort to verify what you're saying before potentially misleading people

[raw nest]

Yes it's from FE but that's not the only thing. Just to give you an idea on what i meant. That thing there. I circled it. It was somekind of unit that could be leading to the units. I know it's not as clear but Yesterday as you pointed out i said i think there is a motor or unit on it. it was again my knowledge and with saying i think i didn't say that this is it. Just commented my knowledge

That round thing i mean

But if you think my thoughts will only misslead then just say it and i won't comment anymore, that's fine for me

[granite tundra]

so.. you're looking at a photo of a formula E car, making an assumption you THINK might be correct, and just deciding to apply that to how an f1 car operates and present it as fact?

you weren't even correct about formula E

it's one MGU linked to the rear axle

[raw nest]

Mate, it's just to give you an idea on what i mean. Im not into FE. I thought there is a Unit collecting the energy and sending it to the ES or something. I also made clear that this isn't it. I also thought this channel would be alright to post thoughts in when am not even claiming that the thing is it.

[granite tundra]

sorry but you're not into formula e.. then why are you trying to analyse the braking systems, using that to infer how formula 1 hybridisation works, and then confidently asserting as such in the technical channel?

do you seriously not see the issue there?

[raw nest]

It is a technical thought on what could be there. So that's not alright?

[granite tundra]

no.. not when you're wildly incorrect on something that can be verified with a 3 second search

this is just basic stuff that you're getting wrong

[raw nest]

Alright got that

[granite tundra]

please.. just don't wildly speculate about stuff you don't know about if it can be validated so easily

[raw nest]

Then you're the one that does that easy. It was just my thought on what could be there and it wasn't taken of nosense but i got it it's fine for me now.

[zenith pumice]

Is this used for regenerative braking or?

[granite tundra]

yep

same basic logic as in f1

pull energy back when braking, deploy when accelerating

i.. think

need to double check the power flows for FE

[zenith pumice]

So it’s how that works in f1? Does it regenerate energy under braking and then yeet it to the axles for more power?

I’m assuming WEC has this too

[granite tundra]

yep, but in f1 it's mounted on the crankshaft

[zenith pumice]

I see, so it’s literally giving the engine more power to output

Neat

[granite tundra]

well to be pedantic, the power unit yes

not the engine/ICE

[zenith pumice]

Makes sense

[zenith pumice]

Ay you said it in technical lol

[granite tundra]

FUCK

[raw nest]

In 2010, the Williams had a Cosworth engine. How did it compare to the others in performance or reliability? From 2011 or 2012 i just know they were not the ace in reliability but not that bad. In terms of perfomance you rarely had a comparison

[feral vessel]

Cosworth in 2010 had a reliable engine, it scored 100% for engine Race reliability, which was a great milestone for the engine manufacturer back then.

Although in 2012, Williams had the Renault engine again which was a small improvement than the previous Cosworth engine, Williams even managed to win a race in 2012 thanks to Pastor Maldonado in the Spanish GP.

[feral vessel]

Sorry, If I went on with the Williams Narrative, but after 2010, Cosworth's engine were unreliable and decaying year after year.

[short ether]

Well they didn't exactly have the funds to I assume develop the CA further

And like.. .The OG design was from 2006

[feral vessel]

Yeah, they still made a good engine in 2010 considering their lack of funds though.

[coarse dagger]

hey all
im looking at a career in aerodynamics (in motorsport) and ive got my schools work experience program next year.
any suggestions on kinds of places i should apply to? (other than a race team)
thanks :)

[short ether]

Boeing, Airbus

[smoky trout]

(motorsport)

[smoky trout]

Don't you think only race teams need an aerodynamist ?

[short ether]

I've read the dude properly

[coarse dagger]

thanks 👍

[granite tundra]

what exactly is this work experience program? depending on your stage in education that could mean a lot of different things

[coarse dagger]

10th grade students basically doing placement for a couple weeks

can be any field

[granite tundra]

oh if you're in america, that closes off a lot of opportunities for industry placements

[coarse dagger]

im in australia

[granite tundra]

ouch.. even worse than

honestly i'm not really sure what options you'd have

[coarse dagger]

theres a few supercars teams in my state

but thats it as far as i know

[granite tundra]

go asking local race teams or events if they're offering unpaid work experience placements for a couple of weeks

[coarse dagger]

alright

[granite tundra]

they'd probably have you doing stuff like making tea or sweeping garages, but it's a start

[coarse dagger]

yeah

[granite tundra]

but a two week work experience before you even go to uni won't really matter when it comes to getting into f1 as a post-grad

so you don't necessarily have to be super on it and working in an industry-relevant field

[coarse dagger]

yeah
they say its supposed to be as close to a feeder into the exact job you want as you can get

[granite tundra]

eh, that's pretty much never the case tbh

[coarse dagger]

fair

[granite tundra]

if you're going into f1, there's a big gap between doing a 2 week placement in the 10th grade and leaving as a post-grad and after having done a year in industry

[coarse dagger]

yup

[granite tundra]

but i'd probably start casting a wider net outside of australia if your final aim is to become an aerodynamicist

in the long run, that's probably not going to happen if you're not willing to relocate to europe or america

so just something to consider

[coarse dagger]

yes

[granite tundra]

i'd also look at general engineering companies that run a work experience scheme

[coarse dagger]

thanks :)
ill look into it

[dawn kernel]

what made the 2014 merc engine sound different from the others?

the ferrari sounded like it was in a tunnel

and renault kinda normal

[zealous mirage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLFkOf4qSZs

ah yes
RedBull wings flex

[tight wharf]

ffs

wings are always gonna flex

[zealous mirage]

They always will
But Mercedes fanboys need to find something to blame for being beaten by RB

[abstract pawn]

I mean currently the Red Bull fans are complaining about the Mercedes front wing

So it goes both ways

[tight wharf]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-we-one-gif-18212100

it's just this

literally

[feral vessel]

I'm not sure about that but one of the reasons might be that Mercedes were using log exhausts at the time where the other teams were using tubular exhausts.

[soft shadow]

Mic placement

[dawn kernel]

oh ok

it sounded growly

[nocturne dock]

the 2011 lotus sounded way different than everyone else

aside from the blown diffuser

[dawn kernel]

ah the caterham lotus?

or the renault lotus

[nocturne dock]

no the lotus lotus

[dawn kernel]

oh ok

[nocturne dock]

renault lotus

[dawn kernel]

ohh

the black and gold one

[nocturne dock]

yea

[dawn kernel]

the blown diffuser of the green one was brutal lmao

it went to some mexican restaurant and then to the track

[soft shadow]

It was never about the engine tbh

It was how the exhaust is linked to the airflow of the diffuser

[dawn kernel]

renault developed the blown diffuser with rb iirc

[crimson granite]

yes

[dawn kernel]

so they might have something to do with it

it sounded cool as heck on the rb cars

and brutal on the green lotus ones

[crimson granite]

well they did develop it with RB cause RB introduced it

[nocturne dock]

the mclaren one sounded nice too

[soft shadow]

https://youtu.be/BmGgvHflXgc

[nocturne dock]

(btw im talking about how good they sounded on the onboards lul)

[dawn kernel]

tru

[short ether]

Bro can we get Coanda exhausts on V10's doe?

[timber jolt]

So it looks like Pirelli is in trouble after today

[reef pine]

and this is for #f1-technical ?

[timber jolt]

Does tire construction and capability under load not constitute "technical" or am I mistaken?

[reef pine]

Ah that you can discuss

Just a statement like "pirelli is in trouble today" is not technical enough though, you need to expand your point

Mate

this is #f1-technical

[teal wraith]

pirelli should make good rubber, they make bad rubber

[abstract pawn]

Can you try and only post actual questions/knowledge etc in here 🙂 And not bullshit like this, thanks.

[teal wraith]

sorry, m8. deleting it. need a place to vent

[timber jolt]

Do you guys think it's an actual TIRE issue or a Baku issue?

[raw nest]

Tyre

[teal wraith]

tyre, obv

[timber jolt]

Both instances, drivers were not using DRS and it was pretty sudden from my view.

So maybe the tires can't handle the load?

[raw nest]

Rear right has more wear than rear left as far as i saw so must be, no?

*It's anticlockwise so that's why rear right has more

[timber jolt]

Yeah, so why the rear left?

[raw nest]

Was it rear right or rear left on Verstappen again? Is anybody here sure?

[timber jolt]

Rear left on both drivers

[short ether]

#PirelliOut

[raw nest]

It's a shame, makes no sense, can't be wear, must be failure

[timber jolt]

What supplier would they even switch to? Firestone like Indy? Goodyear like NASCAR?

[short ether]

Continental

[timber jolt]

Was it Baku they had issues with a few years back with punctures?

I don't want to jump immediately on the "get it together Pirelli" bandwagon, but it's too coincidental.

[short ether]

They've only typically had puncture issues at places like Silverstone...

[smoky trout]

Okay so loads on the rear left increased because Baku has lots of slow corners = more acceleration ?

[raw nest]

Because it's a circuit that has more left corners and in S2 and 3 the load increases in some special corners.
Btw Mr Isola said it's small debris (Sky Sports DE)

[raw nest]

13,14 and 18 are really stressing the right front

[smoky trout]

But the front rights did not blow up though

[raw nest]

So we can say it's not wear that caused the blew ups

[smoky trout]

Okay.

Material defects then ?

[raw nest]

I can't tell you really, we need to wait till Pirelli has a report

But i think of debris

[smoky trout]

Okay.

[last plank]

Plausible explanation for hamilton at restart - While upshifting during that second restart, he toggled the "magic" break switch on the steering wheel, shifting the brake bias extremely towards the front (this solution is used to warm the brakes), so his brake bias was shifted basically 75% towards the front. And while he was braking for T1, he went straight ahead, just as his brake bias was set

[smoky trout]

Thanks for that @last plank

[timber jolt]

Oof. That hurts. I thought he just cooked em on the way and they failed when I saw it from the way they were smoking.

[smoky trout]

More like on fire

[smoky trout]

Pirelli announced that they’d also spotted a cut in the hard tyre of Mercedes’ Lewis Hamilton, discovered when he pitted under the red flag caused by Verstappen’s crash.

[thin pasture]

no shit, he drove over it because he was right behind him when it happened

logical that you pick up some debris when that happens

[old briar]

I've got a question regarding gearboxes. Seems like whenever somebody has a big enough crash, they're likely to need a new gearbox. I'm looking at a picture of a gearbox now and I can see it attached to the rear suspension shit. Is this why hits to the rear of the car are especially likely to require gearbox changes?

[short ether]

Yes. When the resr suspension wishbones go, they fracture and shatter like... Well, bones. This not only creates shrapnel but can cause secondary breaks to fracture around the joints of those suspension parts which are basically the Gearbox Casing ears

That and the rear crash structure and rear wing is meant to absorb impacts too... And they're bolted to the gearbox

Even if the gear cluster inside was all fine and dandy, the casing will most likely break as it's like the rear subframe

[old briar]

Right. The casing being what holds the gearbox, correct?

[short ether]

Yeah

Like the engine, the Gearbox is a stressed member; it's the rear of the chassis in effect

If you took all the body off you could theoretically run it, tho the car would just be tub-Engine-Gearbox

[old briar]

Those bars extending out, the upper and lower ones. Are those the wishbones?

[short ether]

Yez

This is Mercedes rear suspension setup, being a moreorless universal Pullrod type

[old briar]

Sure. And like in the picture above, the rear and upper wishbones are mounted to the gearbox casing. So if the car takes a hit to the rear, the wishbones could get fucked up and then the casing gets fucked up and the gearbox in turn is also fucked up.

[short ether]

Correct

Because also said gearbox houses all the rear suspension dampers and such which probably also get mullered

[old briar]

How did you learn about all this technical stuff?

[short ether]

... I... Don't really know?

I just kinda look at stuff alot

[old briar]

Interesting. Thanks for the explanations either way.

[short ether]

Like alot of my research is googling it and seeing illustrations like said Suspension and y'know... No explanation needed

[old briar]

That's fair. I struggle to make the connections, engineering isn't my thing at all. But if I focus on just F1 cars I'm sure I can get a little more comfortable with it.

[short ether]

Alot of it I suggest is Scarbs, Giorgio Piola and then sites like Mulsannes Corner, Grand Prix Engine Developments 1906-2000, and maybe just like the occasional forums and even the websites for engine builders themselves

[little osprey]

If you DNF from a race can you change engine parts without penalty?

Because I remember in Belgium 2018 when ric retired, they said you can change the gearbox

Can you only change if you have gearbox/engine related problems leading to the DNF or can you change either way

[raw nest]

If a driver fails in a race or is unable to start, a new gearbox unit can be used at the next event without penalty.

[little osprey]

Ah thanks

[short ether]

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp/0qXB1446/s6/mercedes-w12-steering-wheel-re.jpg

@mortal lynx

So this image, are you still wondering?

It's that small little metal button just under the gear monopaddle

The clutches are the paddles that are formed to take two fingies

[raw nest]

Are you talking about the magical or the clutch?

[short ether]

Well the magic button is the little button beneath the gear paddle

The clutches being those separate beefy bois

I wanted to clear it up coz he was asking

[raw nest]

The magical must be on the other side as well then no? Cause Bono said it's on the upshift

[abstract pawn]

That is the Brake Magic button

It is on the left hand side looking from the onboard

Right hand side looking at the wheel from the back

[raw nest]

Ah ok

annoying to hit that on the upshift

[short ether]

Then what's this?

[abstract pawn]

A screw

[short ether]

O

[raw nest]

I would say that's too small for the driver to interact with

But i thought as well that that is the magical

[mint sand]

surely the magic button would be on the right hand side given that Lewis pressed it on an upshift

[abstract pawn]

Lewis said he accidentally hit it when he turned left to avoid Checo that was coming over to cover him off

And considering he holds his left hand over the top of the left hand side it makes sense that he would accidentally hit it then

[mint sand]

true

[abstract pawn]

I thought about something though in terms of how they could avoid it happening in the future

Would it not be possible to make the Brake Magic button work similar to how you put the car into reverse?

That you have to hold the button for like two seconds to turn it on and not by just clicking it

Or like put it on an actual paddle and just add another paddle to the back to avoid it being so easy

Or I know in Monaco I think Mercedes said they can glue "button guards" on around certain buttons that you do not want to press while driving

Just to avoid a missclick

[tacit bridge]

Isnt pit limiter one of those buttons

[short ether]

Bit limiter is usually the button on the front side

Around the top tho

It's a thumb button

[tacit bridge]

Yeah I was talking about a button guard around it

[vernal elk]

What can the teams change in the engine? Would anything other than the turbo and fuel really make that much of a difference in HP?

[abstract pawn]

Yes but Mercedes said that for tracks like Monaco where you turn a lot they can glue button guards on around certain buttons that you do not want to accidentally press while driving

[short ether]

Everything is a HP gain. Oil film thickness/friction, engine temperature consistency, cylinder head design, airflow through not only the Turbo, but the airbox, cylinder heads, exhaust headers, etc.

Bearing material

Like it's... There's alot to take in when designing a race engine

The big thing now is reducing parasitic loss due to caps on power in every other area

In regards to what teams can change?

[vernal elk]

I mean the no tubo limit boost would probably yeild the most power no?

[short ether]

If you have the fuel limit to support it, I would assume so

[granite tundra]

you can upshift with either paddle

[short ether]

Well it's a monopaddle, so you can push with one side, or pull with the other

Good point to make me feel less embarrassed, hmm yes

[vernal elk]

Just make the cars automatic

[short ether]

They tried that twice

Since the ECU's became spec, it's physically impossible

[smoky trout]

Why not just make a common gearbox ?

[spiral gyro]

🤦‍♂️

[smoky trout]

Nevermind

[thorny thistle]

I've seen this before, but what is the reasoning? So you can adjust other things on the wheel while still shifting or something else?

[granite tundra]

i think it's just the way they're assembled

easier to have a single paddle on a rocker switch than two independent systems

plus like you said, it's easier for the driver as well

[woven shard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a4E4Vy8e58

[short ether]

It's a monopaddle, gamer

[granite tundra]

yes.. a single paddle lol

[soft shadow]

How different is Kubica's wheel compared to George's in 2019?

[abstract pawn]

@soft shadow You can see for yourself ^^

[soft shadow]

That's a lot of buttons moved to the left...

[smoky trout]

Is this for Kubica ?

[reef pine]

Yes

[smoky trout]

Okay

[soft shadow]

I like that they added extra layer of suede on the right handle of Robert's Steering wheel...

Getting a grip on his right hand is prolly hard

[crimson granite]

Why put it on the steering wheel

Couldn’t they have put extra grip on the gloves?

[smoky trout]

That will compromise mobility probably
and you don't want that

Maybe

[viscid turret]

Even if it didn't go well, Kubicas return was still amazing

[limber scroll]

Hy guys

[sharp canopy]

were the pits in baku at an angle?https://preview.redd.it/y8nqjfo1dy371.jpg?width=640&height=426&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=ed11cd751bc3a90ab5a87d38bf2c58fdf2677873

when i was looking at the overhead it looked like some were

[upper ivy]

the teams can freely choose the angle, it's common to set the pit box up so that the drivers don't have to turn in too sharply while coming in

[sharp canopy]

oh

[crimson granite]

oh okay i see

[cursive wraith]

He got a point more than "epic" driver George Russell

[smoky trout]

That was considering it was Russell's rookie season

[pallid vector]

I always wanted to talk about the elephant in the room.. alpine's monstrous airbox!

[smoky trout]

Last years Renault too had a huge airbox.
But I don't think it was this big.

[pallid vector]

BOOYAH

[smoky trout]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/586171784626176000.png?v=1&size=64

[cursive wraith]

[cursive wraith]

Robert wasn't in F1 before tho

He had been away since so many damn years

Not to mention the disability he has

[smoky trout]

Ig he was a development driver or something right ?

[cursive wraith]

He didn't do any races or qualis tho

Plus Robert midway through the season

And didn't Robert have a worse car than Russell

Upgrades were restricted due to cost and all

Williams themselves said it

[smoky trout]

I see

[cursive wraith]

Honestly tho i might be criticizing him too much as i can't stand these Rus fans

Valtteri>George

No argument.

[smoky trout]

Well most people though Valtteri had what it took to be a WC (Whoops...)
Same goes for Russel now.
BUT
George might be a tad bit better than him from what I saw at Shakir 2020

[lost fable]

❤️❤️

[short ether]

I was wondering how Formula 1 promotes technology around the world and i think it's a good thing, but like in Formula-E( where the batterie is entirely made out of lithium), the ERS battery pack is made out of lithium( which is environnemently polluting and heavier) so i thought why can't they make batteries made out of graphene

Knowing for a fact

that for 1 kg of graphene

[crimson granite]

i think you answered the question in that text you sent

[short ether]

yea

but it's not what i wanted to say

[crimson granite]

only very small amounts of manufacturers produce that

and in terms of road relevance idk any car company using graphene

[short ether]

Maybe tesla

as they have a project to do so

[crimson granite]

Tesla use Lithium ion batteries

[short ether]

after all

we could find benefits in it

[crimson granite]

And Graphene batteries are super expensive

[crimson granite]

there are definitely benefits

[short ether]

that's the only thing i think....it's the price

What about 1kg of graphene

but we need just need a kilo for 1 KWh

[crimson granite]

the price?

[short ether]

No he hadn't finished his sentence

depends

Price isn't a huge concern in f1

[crimson granite]

graphene can store up to 1,000Wh per kilogram.

[short ether]

front Wing = the price of 3 alpines sport cars

to itself

[crimson granite]

this is actually quite intriguing

[short ether]

That's an interesting comparison

maybe in 5 more years

If there's a weight benefit and its safe, they'll do it

we will see how tech will evolve with the next technical regulation coming up

[crimson granite]

how old is this technology?

[short ether]

pretty new around 5 -6 yrs old

[crimson granite]

yea

i found a small piece

As /u/NanoChemist pointed out, there are problems in making "pristine" single layer graphene. But the main reason why it's not being used is that it's too new and technologies for processing and patterning it are still in relatively early stages of development.

[short ether]

that's it

F1 usually loves this

I guess carbon fibre usage was quite new in 1981

To mold a complete tub

yea

[crimson granite]

Chinese carmaker GAC is planning to install its graphene battery technology in its first vehicle in September 2021.

[short ether]

yea

[crimson granite]

so this will be the first time graphene batteries will be used in cars

[short ether]

if a car company does that then f1 has to do so

[crimson granite]

they probably will

[short ether]

and graphene charges really fast and may not heat up as much as batterys did

we will have to see

Graphene is also a huge prospect in semiconductors to make like CPUs iirc

yea

it's kind of versatile

[crimson granite]

https://futurism.com/graphene-batteries-gamechanger

This give's a good picture

[short ether]

Graphene or lithium

[crimson granite]

it could also help in major weight saving

[short ether]

yea

i found a 2021 Technical regulation

online

and for ERS we gotta go to article 5.12 and 5.19

the minimum value of a ERS pack is 30.6 kg

so take off around 15 kg for electronics and any other material

and have 15 kg of graphene

15 Kwh

capacity

The original battery specifications included a 200 kg (440 lb) cell-weight limit, a 200 kW peak power limit, and a maximum usable energy of 28 kWh

and that's FE for comparison

[abstract pawn]

https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/status/1402680057307578372?s=20

Albert Fabrega (@AlbertFabrega)

Fotos de técnica de Bakú. Detalle del conducto S del Aston Martin

Tech pics from Baku. Detail of Aston Martin's Sduct system.

Twitter · Jun 9, 2021, 5:32 PM

[plain sedge]

how can i become involved in F1 if i have a bachelors degree in CS

[granite tundra]

whereabouts are you based?

[soft shadow]

To further improve the car this season and to for the new regulations for narrower floors, they moved the cooling system to the top of the airbox that made it look bulkier

They wanted to slim down the sidepod section more, hence why they put the cooling systems on the airbox instead

And by narrower floors, it means the triangular cutout we have right now

[smoky trout]

Comes with a disadvantage of higher center of mass

But has aero advantage

Correct ?

[soft shadow]

Yes

They really had to rethink the cooling system's design and the radiator mountings

[short ether]

Mercedes' W12 diffuser details

[short ether]

It's weird

They waxed about the rear wheel winglets

They don't look shorter

[silver bear]

Is the v6 turbo hybrid more or less efficient than the v8 or v10?

[upper ivy]

definitely more efficient

[silver bear]

Ok thanks

[short ether]

Efficient in terms of whart?

[upper ivy]

I'd assume just general efficiency; as in turning the fuel into usable energy?

[short ether]

Well that's typically fuel or Thermal efficiency

I realise volumetric wouldn't... Yeah that too

[short ether]

Thermal efficiency is over the roof

Fuel efficiency as well i guess?

[spiral gyro]

Fuel efficiency is amazing

In the current pu’s

[smoky trout]

"Most efficient engines on planet Earth"

[feral vessel]

Yeah, Current F1 engine are considered to be more "efficient" compared to the Normal aspirated V8 engine, and are more faster than those.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.how-f1-technology-has-supercharged-the-world.6Gtk3hBxGyUGbNH0q8vDQK.html#:~:text=On the road,the way of CO2 emissions

[cursive wraith]

It would be epic if the title was How F1 turbos has supercharged the world

Epic pun

[short ether]

How F1 has turbocharged the world

They need superchargers instead tho coz I said so

[smoky trout]

Well we can't ignore the fact that F1 has influenced a lot of auto-motive techs

[short ether]

Nobody said they didn't

[smoky trout]

Yea...

[analog ferry]

But if Euro 6 didn't get accepted, did V10/8 engines still existed in F1?

Or it's just for better efficiency

[smoky trout]

Euro 6 is a law from EU ?

[upper ivy]

pretty sure racecars don't need to follow any emission laws

apart from pre-GT3 DTM cars I don't think any even have a cat

[red monolith]

I mean lmp1 have banned v10s and v12s just for the emissions, less fuel and less noise.

So basically its a "emission law"

I am pretty sure there is a regulation for all of the championships

[smoky trout]

But the rule that goes to the general public does not apply to the apply to these championships right ?

Also if my Knowledge is right, Euro 6 was introduced somewhere in the 2015-2016 times

[smoky trout]

So probably the rule changes were mostly for efficiency.

[red monolith]

No i don't think so but there were supposed to be tests of some sort

[smoky trout]

Why do you say so ?

[red monolith]

Because to be able to race in europe they must have a certain/maximum of emissions. The rules may bend for the championships but they are still enforced

[smoky trout]

I see.

[short ether]

How does... How does a Euro road standard for road vehicles apply to F1?

[smoky trout]

[short ether]

no

[glossy knot]

[short ether]

Oh the

Right this convo

[glossy knot]

me when the:

[smoky trout]

Guess you didn't read anything after that question

[short ether]

Sorry

[smoky trout]

It's okay
"We all make mistakes in the heat of passion @short ether "

[short ether]

Bro

[smoky trout]

(A joke though)

[short ether]

2nd gen biofuels for the bois

Then but out the F1 = F5000 2

[smoky trout]

What ?

[short ether]

What?

[smoky trout]

[short ether]

keep this channel serious please

[granite tundra]

this is patently nonsense

i have literally never seen a race car have to undergo emissions testing in the ~8 years i've been at a track for

[red monolith]

I said it is what I think

Read the message on top

[granite tundra]

this is bullshit as well

where are you getting your information from?

[short ether]

I was gonna say like bruv... It's not like F1 cars have Cats

[granite tundra]

no, road-going emissions regulations have absolutely zero relevance on f1

[short ether]

And their Fuel still permits lead

Unless Lead cannot be entirely removed from Petrol

[granite tundra]

outside of potentially influencing what OEMs want to develop to reflect the changes in the road-going market

[red monolith]

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a2045451/engine-rules-change-lmp1-prototypes/

[granite tundra]

that's.. a 13 year old article..

[red monolith]

Read it

[granite tundra]

what makes you think that's relevant now?

[short ether]

it's mostly the opposite isn't it right? OEMs influencing the regs towards what they envision for the car market in the future

[red monolith]

Yes its in this conversation

[grave fable]

I can tell you, because I have a very large cranium and have read the regulations, that Hypercar is an open engine formula

[short ether]

thank you stable genius.

[granite tundra]

yep, they try and shift it towards what they're developing on the road

[granite tundra]

thank you for your contribution

indeed, prototypes have an open engine formula AND emissions testing for motorsport (excluding noise) is insignificant in europe

[short ether]

The Valkyrie was gonna be in LMH bruh

[grave fable]

so much so they shat all over the hypercar rule set so they could include it and then pulled out

[short ether]

Get in there Aston

[granite tundra]

MSUK's rule is just "visible smoke and exhaust emissions"

[short ether]

Sticking it to that awfully named proto group

[red monolith]

But why does the euro 6 law not affect championships

I dont get to understand it well

[granite tundra]

because euro6 is for roadgoing, mass-produced cars

[short ether]

Because they aren't road going?

[red monolith]

You guys also know about the EPA business

Trying to ban modified cars or something like that

[short ether]

...

Modified road cars

Are road cars

F1 cars are not road cars

[red monolith]

wrong chat

[short ether]

f1 cars aren't and never will be allowed to drive on the road legally

[red monolith]

Sorry

[short ether]

There is nothing in the regs to do emissions wise

[red monolith]

I read an article where it says in 2030 the f1 will reduce the CO2 to net 0

So basically it will be more sustainable

[short ether]

That can be done by fuel

[red monolith]

mhm

[short ether]

Hence the biofuels

You can make as many emissions as you want, because they're biofuels all that carbon goes back in the system

Oil kinda does that but the rate of supply vs. Demand is VASTLY different

F1 is already carbon neutral afaik anyway

They still use Petrol

which they offset by buying carbon credits

While yes

No

can you elaborate on the "no"?

[red monolith]

It depends on the team

The teams like ferrari and mercedes have their own petrol suplier

Like shell and petronas

[short ether]

While F1 buys carbon credits

That doesn't mean they themselves are carbon neutral

It just means someone's offsetting the impact for them

oh yes, obviously

... Also every team has theid own fuel supplier coz they have to to have fuel

[graceful sun]

They essentially plant more trees to offset it right?

[short ether]

To bake it right down, yea

You're essentially sponsoring a company to compensate for you

Honestly I reckon half of us all just breathe in and the other half breathe out at the same time

Ez fix

[drowsy nacelle]

lol that's just less Oxygen and more CO2 at the same time

[short ether]

Awh damn uh

We all hold our breaths for 1 minute

[drowsy nacelle]

Basically Pirelli in Baku

[timber jolt]

Speaking of..

Have we received any update on that?

[granite tundra]

There are now some rumblings that teams were actually running tyre pressures out of limits, which may have contributed to the failures

But it's still up in the air and theres no definitive answer yet

[dense hornet]

Is Pirelli in this server?

If yes

Tell them to fix tyres failing in hot weather and circuits like Baku

[short ether]

keep this channel serious

[granite tundra]

Seriously?

Go take the shitposts somewhere else

[short ether]

Make the cars lightewr

i'd rather have them nimbler first

So... Lighter?

shit wrong word. i meant smaller

[short ether]

But not by width tho right?

B-but... Not by width, right? right?

BY EVERY MEANS POSSIBLE

by width, by length AND by height!!

No

[hallow jay]

Just bring back old cars put a halo on and ready

(joke)

[timber jolt]

I mean, is it possible that hotter than average temperatures caused the pressure at running temp to be too high?

[rare geyser]

If regulations didn't limit, what do you think would be the ideal weight distribution? Currently regulations limit the weight distribution to somewhere around 45/55, do you think something like 40/60 better?

[red monolith]

Yes everything to make monaco better again

[short ether]

Glad you said better, cause it was never great

[red monolith]

I didn't say it was great I said it will be better. So basically more overtakes and stuff

[viscid turret]

Since the general chat is just... Cluttered up and shit
https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/1404860895075962888?s=19

What does Pirelli exactly mean with this? Do they blame teams for doing something to the tires? Do they admit it's not the teams fault? Or is it just so vague that we don't know

Adam Cooper (@adamcooperF1)

Pirelli says Baku failures were "down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed."

Twitter · Jun 15, 2021, 5:58 PM

[granite tundra]

i've read it a couple of times now and my interpretation of it has changed- i think this is exactly in-line with the rumours about the teams doing something fucky with tyre pressures

note how they specify that the starting parameters were followed

yet they still attribute the failures to the running conditions

combine it with the fact that they're putting TDs in place for france for some procedural changes, i think there are two possibilities

a) everyone was acting in good faith. the teams weren't deliberately changing parameters, but everyone's understanding of how the operating conditions evolved through a race was wrong, and pirelli were simply caught out by them

b) the teams were ultimately fucking around, which is why the TDs are coming in to enforce change

i think you could make an argument for either option.. option A because pirelli have been using some very neutral language, and you'd expect them to be a bit stronger if teams were pissing about with the tyre pressures and causing the problems

and option B because of the fact that the FIA are stepping in to run a few TDs and procedural changes, which potentially points to the teams being out of line

[abstract pawn]

Basically exactly my thoughts

[short ether]

I've found... At least in sims which isn't the best reference, that more of a 57.5-60% rear bias is good, however I don't know if that's the case with the current F1 cars especially with their high rakes

[granite tundra]

https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/15/extensive-new-tyre-rules-from-french-gp-also-forbid-red-bull-tactic-hamilton-spotted-in-spain/
we already on td003 bois

interesting that if you fail a tyre pressure check after the 3 minute buzzer, it's a straight pitlane start

then again the FIA are stuck between a rock and a hard place since the GPDA are very firmly against the tyre blanket ban

[drowsy nacelle]

Right now each party is saying that things were ok from their pov

RB and Pirelli have confirmed no operational and manufacturing gaps

So has to be a design thing

Which could have been compensated through higher Tire Pressures >> better structural integrity

Fomr some discussions on Reddit, there is also an opinion that maybe Pirelli weren't actually ready for this year because of planned overhauling of the cars and they were in a way indirectly forced to build over their existing tech which seems to be not working properly

Basically looks like a gap in design from Pirelli

My 2 cents

[drowsy nacelle]

Ok they confirmed that it is a design gap

Pretty obvious but yay

[smoky trout]

Oh okay

[granite tundra]

where you seeing this?

[urban compass]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIKoLhbxG_w

the one about lewis is good

about how and why the cars should be so big and heavy

[short ether]

Formula World is kinda isn't it

[urban compass]

but the one about lewis is right

if they are to big and heavy u need big breaks more fuel burns and more brake dust and since f1 is moving into a sustainable and eco friendly sport now tehy need to do that

[tight wharf]

it's very UU

it's quite literally just an alt account of planetf1

[short ether]

Yeah but that article can be as right as you want but it's not trustworthy that Lewis said that

[cursive wraith]

Well that is a pretty weird situation

Increasing weight means more safety but more fuel burning

[short ether]

Why does increasing weight increases safety?

[smoky trout]

Increasing weight does not always increase safety.
Like if your brakes fail at the end of a straight, you will have more momentum to stop.
But if you place the weight in the impact structure, the safety might increase by a bit because of more impact absorption.

[short ether]

Increasing weight increases safety if the weight is directly down to adding a safety device to whatever exists without modifying the weight of the car it's added to

Like the Halo being like 6-8kg

[abstract pawn]

The FIA and Pirelli cannot control the tire pressures while the car is on the track, because each team uses different sensors and they could not offer any real value. In 2022 they will all be the same, and they will all be controlled. That is why maximum temperature and minimum pressure are measured before the car goes out on track.

It is suspected that some equipment could heat the tires above the maximum temperature values, and adjust the minimum tire pressures in certain conditions. They pass the tests, but on the track the temperature stabilizes and the pressures drop below the prescribed minimum pressure.

The new technical directive changes the measuring process from Pirelli. Now a table has been created with pressure values related to a specific temperature, they can now be measured after qualifying and the race when they are cold or by heating them again using blankets.

Tires that are below the minimum tire pressures based on the temperature which they are at will be reported to the stewards. At the same time, the temperature of the blankets will now also be measured more frequently and the time allowed to heat the tires has been reduced.

I can not say if the problems in Baku were due to the tires being ran under the minimum tire pressures. But Pirelli has a "pressure safety margin" to secure the integrity of the tire. No structural faults, delamination or cuts were found after the failures. The problem was on the side wall.

The whole thread translated if anyone is interested^^

[copper mason]

Some info for the technical experts out there, couldnt find 2021 one but heres the one from 2019

about tires

[granite tundra]

tyre info is normally in the event notes, interesting that they aren't for paul ricard

and here are your return routes for the weekend

[viscid turret]

Make sense

[limber sluice]

yeah but the cars would be heavy if you need all the tech that it needs. cant make omelettes without breakin eggs

as well as for safety

[smoky trout]

It's a stalemate between make F1 cars more advanced bs making F1 cars lighter.

the faster F1 cars are, the more features you need.

And F1 takes it's pride in being the fastest racing series.

So I don't see F1 cutting down on speed to that of before 2013

[short ether]

as well as for safety bruh

[smoky trout]

Yup

Also you need more energy to make the heavier cars move.

So.....

ya

[short ether]

i don't understand the whole safety aspect thing as much when most of the safety devices we currently have were there during a much lighter period or their weight increase isn't hugelysignificant

[limber sluice]

well they can slow down by quite some time and still be the fastest

[granite tundra]

the fundamentals of the safety devices might be the same, but they have consistently been strengthened and have to pass higher crash test requirements

you also have the addition of new hardware like the side impact spars, rear lighting, anti-intrusion panels etc.

[short ether]

What's mad is from next year, Indy has managed to become lighter than F1

[limber sluice]

how much did indy weigh

[granite tundra]

take 2004 to 2021 for the singular nose impact test

[short ether]

Oh wait I was wrong

Indy doesn't take into account driver weights

[granite tundra]

in 2004, you had a 14 m/s impact and a maximum average deceleration of 40g, in 2021 it's a maximum peak deceleration of 45g

[short ether]

... That doesn't... sound significantly higher, considering that peak decel is always gonna be higher than average

I assume it very much is tho

[granite tundra]

point being it's a faster test, roughly comparable deceleration limits but 2021 noses have that limit with respect to peak deceleration

whereas in 2004 all you had to hit was an average decel, which will be significantly lower, as you said

[short ether]

Oh wow you can decrease the G-Force with less weight wow

Well that's my point, if 2004 had nose decel averages of 40G, what was the range to get that average?

[granite tundra]

the weight is irrelevant here

both tests are done with the 780kg sled

[short ether]

Right

Good point but, my question doe

[granite tundra]

what do you mean by the range?

[short ether]

Like if the average is 40G

What would be the peak?

[granite tundra]

impossible to say, and depends on the crash structure

[short ether]

Coz say for a really bad example that peak is like 45 and goes down exponentially to average out 40 then huh

[granite tundra]

but the point is, peak deceleration is consistently significantly higher than sustained deceleration, and 2021 measures primarily on the former

[short ether]

Oh significantly higher...

[abstract pawn]

My calculation can not be right

If the temperature of the tire is 72 degrees then the pressure of the tire should be 82.2 psi

Yeah it can not be considering the expected stabilized running pressure is above 22.0 psi on the fronts

Then 82 psi is way too much lol

mafs

[short ether]

Bruv 82.2psi for a Tyre is awful

[granite tundra]

how are you calculating this?

[abstract pawn]

72 - 100 * 0.108 + 21

72 being the temperature

And 21 being the minimum pressure

[granite tundra]

no

T is operating temp of the tyre

which would be around 110 to 100

assuming blanket temps of 100 for the front, the maths should go

(110-100)*0.108 + 21

which gives 22 psi front

bang on what pirelli say

(i think)

but the math checks out at least

wait

in the nicest way possible, you've absolutely, hideously butchered that equation

you've done 72 - 10.8 + 21

you multiply 0.108 by the temp delta, which is why it's in brackets

[abstract pawn]

Hey I always struggled with math

[granite tundra]

out of curiosity, where did you get 72 from?

[abstract pawn]

Idk I just guessed the temperature would be 72 lol

[granite tundra]

nah lol

peak temp in the blanket will be 100 for fronts, operating temp somewhere between 100-110

i.. think i know how they've got these formulae

i'm pretty confident they just looked at their physical results, pulled all of the datapoints from, it, and worked backwards to curve fit it

same way i did my dissertation stuff.. not sure if i should be concerned about that

[short ether]

Why?

[smoky trout]

You guys are smart

[abstract pawn]

Excluding me obviously

[smoky trout]

nope, you included

[short ether]

slendis, no

[abstract pawn]

Nah

Well it depends on the subject I guess

But I am not smart in this

[smoky trout]

Well you knew these formulas, so I count you as one of the smart ones.

Including the one who is not an aerodynamicist

[short ether]

*It's funny coz he is one

[smoky trout]

oh wow

[granite tundra]

because i'm an idiot and my dissertation is one dirty look away from bursting into flames

[short ether]

Man so much self-hatred

Chill out you're beautiful

[granite tundra]

no you'd understand if you saw it

[urban compass]

But that's the point of safety cells, like make the car lighter but still try to improve the cell and keep the halo and anything else for safety

[smoky trout]

How do you impose we make the car lighter ?

[urban compass]

not sure

make the car a bit smaller

not to much like add ons

like make it as simple as 2009

they did it right

[abstract pawn]

And how would you make the cars smaller and remove the “add ons”

[urban compass]

make the back half of the car not so long as well

[abstract pawn]

And how would you do that

Where would the engine and everything fit

[urban compass]

they fit v12s in smaller cars

push it back but not to much

[abstract pawn]

But did those have a hybrid system

[urban compass]

true

tbh i cant really remember what i was gonna say soz im so tired

[abstract pawn]

It’s not like they made the cars longer just because they felt like it

I would assume the current size is already the bare minimum for how small you can go

[urban compass]

true

i dont think tho we can make them smaller anymore

unless we go to battery

but thats wont happen

[smoky trout]

You mean to make it Formula E ?

[urban compass]

we will have to

a guy got info from his friend, ceo of an oil company, they say theres only 50 years MAX of oil left

this is true

[smoky trout]

That could be true.

Does not mean we have to abandon combustion engines.

[urban compass]

true we will still use them

we will probably try to make our own oil to use

[smoky trout]

Yup

[urban compass]

so we can replicate it

[smoky trout]

Bio fuel kinda things

[urban compass]

but other than that natural oil is gonna go soon

[smoky trout]

Yes.

[barren violet]

How about hydrogen?

[short ether]

Ya how about it?

[short ether]

NO

Hydrogen Combustion Engines are not great

[barren violet]

Nono

Electric hydrogen engines

[short ether]

If you meant fuel cells then fine

But considering muh biofuels came up

[barren violet]

FE but with no batteries

Yet still electric

[short ether]

But no tho

[barren violet]

how about maybe in the future

[smoky trout]

Don't think Hydrogen will be viable for high speed racing.

[barren violet]

Maybe for endurance

As it can be refilled just like with normal fuels

[smoky trout]

That could be possible

But not in F1

[barren violet]

F1 hydrogen refueling when?!

[smoky trout]

never ?

[short ether]

I like refuelling...

[smoky trout]

Safety issue there too.

A lot

[short ether]

I... Would get that point

If it wasn't in every other series

and others use little water hoses when the fuel door is closing

[smoky trout]

I don't think F1 need refueling because now the teams have to push to make the engine efficient to be able to use the limited fuel.

Yes it would make the cars a bit lighter but that comes at the risk of everyone in the pit lane including the driver.

[short ether]

Oh you meant for weight reasons

[smoky trout]

Weight, risk, efficiency.