f1-technical

[upper ivy]

https://veloviewer.com/segment/2294858/Eau+Rouge here you go

[short ether]

How does downshifting reduce braking distance

[sudden scroll]

the lower the gear, the more engine braking you get

[civic fern]

At the consequence of slightly unsettling the car

You and I probably won’t feel it given how good F1 transmissions are

But its been talked about in lap vids before

[edgy anchor]

https://vxtwitter.com/Miroa_Adamon/status/1547889777243856896

Alpha Tauri just not caring

[ancient fiber]

does anybody kniw what happened to sainz

[grave fiber]

why not ask yourself F1-75

[short ether]

How does the MGUK slow down the car quicker under braking

[drowsy nacelle]

Exactly how engine braking works

On braking, you need to reduce the kinematic energy in form of vehicle speed

So that can go through the heat being generated by the brakes

Additionally harvesting it through mgu k will result in faster dissipation of this kinetic energy

And hence you will brake faster

[edgy anchor]

The MGU-K jams on magnetic resistance to generate more electric energy

[quick wind]

There is a physical linkage for the braking force as a result of the engine's rotating mass (Crank, Transmission, etc) and the MGU-K.

However the MGU-K is considered to be a secondary contribution of the 'Engine-Brake' factor. The significance of this contribution is unknown

Engine braking is prodominantly accomplished through engine processes (mainly stressed induced in the compression chamber) where a vaccum is formed (a low/no fuel mixture present) which causes the pistons to slow down

---

⚠️ THE MGU-K DOES NOT CAPTURE HEAT ENERGY FROM THE BRAKES, This is a very common misconception
⚠️ MGU-K (alone) is not engine braking!

F1 MGUK systems uses a rotating three-phase system that is connected to the crank-shaft fed to the rear wheels.

In a braking scenario, the rear wheels are spinning with lots of kinetic rotational energy which will spin the rotor part of the MGUK (via the Crankshaft, transmission, etc)

Because of the configuration of what is essentially magnets and the MGU-K Following Faraday's law, the rotational movement will generate a resistance as mentioned by @edgy anchor. The work done by the kinetic rotational energy of the wheel is transmitted to the electrical energy of the MGU-K (via the mechanical means i.e. crankshaft). The spin of the rear wheels is being resisted by the rear wheels due to these electromagnetic forces (resistance).

---

Summary:

Braking Force = Aero Drag (large contribution) + Engine & Transmission Forces + MGUK + Other Friction. (Underlined is loosely 'Engine Brake')
MGUK Resistance = MGUK Revolutions at Controlled % (where % proportional to variable electrical current PID/electromagnetism)
Electromagnetism is actuated.

[drowsy nacelle]

I believe the guy is only asking how the cars slow down faster with an mgu k, so you only need to explain that you have another sink to absorb that kinetic energy. So the energy can dissipate at a faster rate.

[sudden scroll]

That detailed explanation was very welcome.

[quick wind]

You explored the scope of heat in the brakes and its presence of its generation - which is true, but can be muddled up in the explanation.

[short ether]

Thanks.
How about MGUH?

[quick wind]

MGUH is a bit more complicated, would like to see people's take on it before I get home from work aha

[short ether]

Yeah I know that it stops turbo lag but I’m still a little bit muddled on how it saves energy and interacts with MGUK

Also

If the MGUK linked directly to the crank, what about the gearbox?

[short ether]

.

Why tf did Ferrari in the early turbo hybrid era open their wastegates on the straight?
Isn’t that just straight up lost energy or does it help performance.

[edgy anchor]

Your wastegate will open with power to limit boost pressure

You can't just keep ramping pressure especially with fuel flow rates unless you're... Idk Mark Blundell in a 1990 Nissan

[upper ivy]

Very simply put it's a generator/motor on the turboshaft. At high speeds it's activated to harvest energy (which will reduce the power of the turbocharger but at high speeds that is fine); while under acceleration from low speeds it acts as a motor, spinning the turbocharger and "filling" the turbolag

[upper ivy]

The braking power of the MGU-K at least is significant enough that if it fails, that can be a big problem for the rear brakes.

[short ether]

So when it’s at high speed, those exhaust gases are converted into electrical energy stored in the ES?

[drowsy nacelle]

Understandable

[short ether]

Any idea on the maximum boost teams are allowed?

[edgy anchor]

They're unrestricted

[drowsy nacelle]

I was trying to explain how heat is one way and mguk another addition. But I get your point.

[edgy anchor]

But they're limited to about 3.5 bar

Which isn't exactly low

[sudden scroll]

what's the difference between the turbo pressure and the boost?

[drowsy nacelle]

I was going to ask the exact same thing

Lol

Looks like same

[upper ivy]

the energy of the gases is converted into electric energy, yes.

[drowsy nacelle]

It doesn't interact with MGU K, totally different systems.

[short ether]

Ok. Thanks

[drowsy nacelle]

MGU K is basically taking kinetic energy from all the moving parts- the drive train and the power train.

Exhaust gases are still getting pumped out through the turbocharger, so you can provide boost to the intake or you can charge a motor on that same shaft

I am not very clear on all the use cases though

[drowsy nacelle]

Thats MGU H

Maybe someone can share all the use cases for MGU H and K.

When and which is used in F1 to harvest. E.g. the MGU K while braking is one condition

[short ether]

I still thought MGUH and K interact with each other

In some way

[drowsy nacelle]

Do you have a reason for it? Maybe I am missing out on something.

[short ether]

I just read this article which said

‘

In the second phase of acceleration, once a certain reference speed of the turbo and engine has been reached, the MGUH supplies energy directly to the MGUK to accelerate it further

[drowsy nacelle]

Oh that way

[short ether]

The article could be written wrong, the author maybe missed out the part of the energy store.

[drowsy nacelle]

So they are not interacting mechanically for sure. Maybe it means that at a certain time, the MGU H might be producing electricity and the MGU K still has room to utilise

Again, I am not very clear on the use cases. Let's wait for someone to shed some more light on what all times MGU H is used in F1 to harvest energy.

[drowsy nacelle]

If mguh is producing and mguk is consuming, even if there is the battery in between, you can say that both these systems are interacting.

[short ether]

Yeah I guess, but the article says ‘directly’

Let’s see what someone more informed says

[drowsy nacelle]

Meanwhile can you share that article? :)

[short ether]

It’s in Italian, but sure.

[edgy anchor]

Did anyone say they were different things?

[short ether]

https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2022/07/f1-pu-ibride-2026.html

[edgy anchor]

I assume the 3.5 bar is intake pressure, which if absolute would be 2.486 Bar aboge atmosphere

The MGU-H basically regulates the rpm of the turbo when doing speedy and puts resistance on the turbo shaft, so the exhaust gas push against that resistance to generate electricity, which feeds the battery, which feeds the MGU-K

[short ether]

Thanks

[drowsy nacelle]

Is it the MGU H working on straights before the braking zone and then both H and K at the braking zone?

[edgy anchor]

Both the MGU-K and H are working almost all the time

[granite tundra]

the MGU-H can send energy directly to the MGU-K, bypassing the energy store

no limitation on how much energy is sent to the MGU-K this way

[sudden scroll]

just the wording you used , it got me confused 🙂
"Any idea on the maximum boost teams are allowed?"
"They're unrestricted" "But they're limited to about 3.5 bar"

[edgy anchor]

They're not regulation limited

[drowsy nacelle]

:o

[edgy anchor]

But as a result of the amount of fuel they have, they have a top end

[vestal depot]

It's just ironic, they bring the turbo back and then ruin it by having an MGU-H

[drowsy nacelle]

You lost me there. How does it ruin the turbo?

[edgy anchor]

Oh yeah, bro my Turbo lag posing a challenge

Sike

[vestal depot]

Because the fun of a turbo is the lag sound on acceleration but the MGU-H doesn't allow that to happen

[edgy anchor]

Let's make the turbo linear with wayyy more money involved

[drowsy nacelle]

XD

[vestal depot]

The MGU-H itself is very expensive already, and has no road relevance

[sudden scroll]

turbo lag isn't fun if you want efficiency

[vestal depot]

And do you want efficiency at all costs

[sudden scroll]

in F1? yes

it's an engineering series

[vestal depot]

Like even without the MGU-H these PUs would still be a lot more efficient than the V8s and V10s of the recent past

[edgy anchor]

so make the V10 Hybrid to invalidate it completely for the bois

[drowsy nacelle]

4 more years

[short ether]

2026 engines will sound better though ?

[quick wind]

Thanks for the clarification, I wonder what failure mode would cause that, Surely wouldn't it be a case of a failsafe measure to have zero resistance or is that not possible/how it works.. Open for speculation

[upper ivy]

In case of the most prominent example I can think of, when both Mercedes' MGU-K failed in Canada in 2014 (causing rear brakes to overheat on both cars), I think it was a failure in the high voltage control system that controls the flow of electricity between battery and MGU-K.

[vestal depot]

I wonder if they'll go the Formula E route and remove the rear brakes entirely on the 2026 cars, could be a good idea as they gotta find a way to fill up a much bigger battery and motor

[quick wind]

Ah failing in a way that induces braking 😭

[upper ivy]

in FE they already don't use the mechanical rear brakes a lot, not sure they can just get rid of them in F1

[vestal depot]

And their gen 3 car will remove them all together, and if you gotta provide energy to a more powerful MGU-K and keep the car somewhat light then it could be a good idea to do that with the new power units

[upper ivy]

that would have to be a LOT more power though

F1 is significantly faster after all

I do agree that it would be cool though. It would also mean less brake dust is produced of course.

[amber kraken]

If Max and Lewis somehow managed to continue on after this collision, I bet both of them would have been hindered by aero issues. Not sure how it would have effected Lewis but Max definitely would have had a large loss of pace, considering the floor of the right sidepod had crunched in itself after coming down hard on Lewis' airbox

[deft burrow]

considering the rear wing of lewis's car was damaged + possible suspension damage, im not sure he'd be able to continue at all

[elder plover]

And if what WTF1 said in his video about sausage kerbs is true, one on the inside of the second part of Rettifilo was responsible for launching Max on top of Lewis.

[spiral gyro]

pretty sure max's diffuser was badly damaged too

[spiral gyro]

the saussage kerbs are just stupid and annoying

[primal patrol]

what difference does having endplates on the rear wing (pre 2022 cars) make in comparison to the 2022 car wings

[last tulip]

he would probably end up 2nd, Daniel was flying

[upbeat delta]

Sausage kerbs should be banned

[upper ivy]

It kinda set his rear to the side but ultimatively the car was launched from the tyre to tyre contact.

There are many sausage kerbs related incidents but IMO this one isn't really one of them

[elder plover]

The point being made is that the kerb played a role in the accident. I suspect that if that was a different kind of kerb, the outcome would have been very different.

[upper ivy]

Maybe, but I think the sausage kerb's role was rather minor. The big difference is that in that case it was not the kerb that actually launched the car

[short ether]

Does anyone have a list/link of all the outsourced parts for an F1 powertrain.

I only know of Bosch for fuel ignition and Magnetti Marelli.

[wispy jacinth]

Do drivers just inhale engine exhaust for the entirety of the race and their entire careers in the sport?? isnt that dangerous for their health in terms of their long term effects?

[cursive wraith]

They inhale brake dust a lot iirc

And it’s an even bigger problem this year since it’s faced right on the driver

[spiral gyro]

hell no

there are filters located in front of the drivers face in the helmet which prevents inhalation of such particles

if u see at the front side there is a filter

[edgy anchor]

The... Where does this come from? They're in a car with exhausts behind them

[graceful sun]

When they are following a car i guess

[median folio]

What would happen if there's a crash and for example 14/20 competing cars are out and can't get back to the pitlane on their own power in Lap 1 the race would be cancelled or something?

[spiral gyro]

ig a redflag?

will be a long one tho

[median folio]

But would the race restart with all drivers? because a restart with 6 drivers... IDK

[spiral gyro]

nope

remember indianapolis 2005?

held a race with 6 cars too

[median folio]

There's a rule now that if the grid has less than 14 cars at the start of the race the race will be cancelled to avoid another Indy 2005

[civic fern]

Well, if there’s a red flag because 14 cars crashed, then the race has already started

The Silverstone second start was from Lap 2

So I don’t think that rule will apply for this

[deft burrow]

If I recall, that rule lays under FIA discretion.

[viral trellis]

Sausage kerbs should be banned

[median folio]

Of course, but they're gonna probably wait until someone actually dies because of it, because I don't understand why they keep using them

[upper ivy]

I dont see why not. I think in that case fans would still rather see a race than no race.

6 remaining cars after a crash isnt as ridiculous as 6 remaining cars because the rest just pulled out.

(I know there was the whole tyre thing but the situation was still ridiculous)

Remember in Mugello the 2nd restart only had 13 drivers

[median folio]

Although it would be crazy to see for example the 3 bottom Teams fighting for the win. Even a Podium can seal a battle at the bottom of the Grid

[upper ivy]

Yeah

[short ether]

How does a disappearing skid block work.

Is there springs,softer material above the skid and plank, where the block can be pushed into?

Also, for the 1mm wear, is that on the titanium elements, or the wood.

What this?

Can anyone annotate?
Is that huge piece on top, an inter cooling package or a plenum?

[short ether]

Did red bull come up with it or was it mandated to them by the FIA?

[civic fern]

i believe what happened was FIA asked for frontal impact driver protection and these are what the teams came up with

[short ether]

So Merc invented the halo 😮

[civic fern]

yep

i think functionally the aeroscreen was the best, the halo was the most natural and looks the best (maybe im just used to it at this point), and whatever Ferrari came up with was only proven to be quite good at making Sebastian Vettel dizzy

[merry delta]

then again, Indycar now has arguably the best of both worlds too

a halo with an aeroscreen

[wispy jacinth]

Wb this

[rigid thorn]

the halo looks good (on cars that are after 2016)

[deft burrow]

holy shit I thought that was an F2 car for a split second

[upper ivy]

The FIA also thought so but it didn't pass the crashtests back then

the Indycar version probably would

[short ether]

What do Williams engineering supply to F1 teams?

Something with ERS?