f1-technical

[quasi gulch]

ohh so kinda like a small dynamo that spins thanks to the exhaust gases and stores the energy?

[short ether]

Yeah, it's essentially a very delicate Alternator or Dyno on your Turbo spindle

[quasi gulch]

ahh it makes more sense now thanks a lot

[short ether]

Yeah

[short ether]

You ever have like... Technical stuff you talk about and feel like no one cares about?

[cloud prawn]

I don't know many technical things about an f1 car but now that I think of it if formula E had the same budgets as f1, would they be able to produce a greater car? Or would the original engine be better . I think it could be any of them, while the electric motor might have faster acceleration, it is heavier. Hmmm

[short ether]

i don't think the motor is heavier, would really surprise me

[upper ivy]

The battery may be, but the motors should be rather small and light

[crimson granite]

the battery is 385 Kgs

[granite tundra]

errrrrr

you're off by a factor of 20 lmao

[crimson granite]

Wait what

https://www.fiaformulae.com/en/discover/cars-and-technology

[granite tundra]

wait are you talking about formula e?

[crimson granite]

yep

[granite tundra]

turns out i can't read

[crimson granite]

oh wait

lmao

A F1 battery is like 20 kgs right?

[granite tundra]

yep, 20kg max weight

[short ether]

20-25

I assume they have a limit on min and max to stop teams just making a huge battery

[granite tundra]

holy shit i actually can't read this morning

[short ether]

Pffff

Nah is fine

[jolly patrol]

Murray walker used to do mistakes all the time in commentary but people think it's wholesome where when it's crofty it's "get your shit together"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[granite tundra]

wrong channel? but i completely agree

[abstract pawn]

I have never said Murray Walker making commentary mistakes is wholesome though have I

[short ether]

Yeah but you're a killjoy

[jolly patrol]

How did I end up in this channel lmao

[short ether]

It's monday, nobody can read properly

[abstract pawn]

Is it just an optical illusion, or would there be any specific reason why Daniel is slightly turning left when going in a straight line?

Both images were taken in a similar place on the straight in similar circumstances so I just thought it was weird that Daniel was turning slightly left

[short ether]

Where was this?

I assume during the race he was bonked and had a slight steering fault

[abstract pawn]

In China 2016

Daniel had no contact during the race from what I could see

Although Sebastian did on the first lap but he was steering completely straight

[short ether]

Hmmst

[native tulip]

@old rose can you stop?

[tropic plume]

hmm

[tight wharf]

they left

[short ether]

It's force feedback @abstract pawn

[white oak]

ryan

want a good profile pic

of hamilton

if u do, here

[reef pine]

sir this is #f1-technical

[white oak]

oh sorry

[spiral gyro]

🤦‍♂️

[zenith tartan]

Does this particular shape of front brake ducts bring any benefit ? How does it help compared to most other teams FBDs which seem to have that bulky portion on the top side than bottom?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/824368510166892574/837308888738693210/16197003772891031865490112040165.jpg

[short ether]

It's trying to gain very specific air travel off the front wings into the duct, while trying to cool the maximum amount of surface they can in there

[zenith tartan]

I guess I'm trying to figure out why this would be a better approach than the 'conventional' method they ran last year. I guess it also depends on the rest of aero philosophy downstream, mostly bargeboard? Would the rake impact with new rules be a factor?

[short ether]

With Brake Ducts? Unsure

I wouldn't think so

[abstract pawn]

I did not watch Formula 1 during the days of the wheel covers, but I have a question regarding them.

How will pit stop times be affected by the wheel covers for 2022, if even affected at all?

And does the whole wheel cover come off during a pit stop or is it just the nut like we have now?

[granite tundra]

well it's hard to make a direct comparison to pit stop times because back when there were covers and shrouds, there was also refuelling

[blazing saffron]

how about just the wheel removing part?

since that's the main issue here

[granite tundra]

it shouldn't really have an impact, because the nut is still exposed and the covers should remain fixed to the rim iirc

[short ether]

i'd have to rewatch, i think they had to reload the pistols with the new cover and hen the nut

[abstract pawn]

I reckon the margin for error in terms of putting the gun on the actual nut will be smaller as well?

[short ether]

so it would have been longer anyway, cause after they put the cover, they had to orientate it in the correct position

[granite tundra]

to my knowledge the entire thing is being treated as one assembly for 2022 though

[short ether]

In the case of 2008, half of the rims were wheel hub sttached, so they'd come off with the wheelnut, but now they're just kinda like Aerodiscs or Turbofans. Either way they shouldn't be effected

[paper wing]

Congrats @short ether, you're now on lap 30

[short ether]

Aha

Hos they get them stationary tho id beyond me

[short ether]

I find it mad how F1 uses top and moreorless middle wishbones

Despite that they are less efficient

What's better?

Afaik, the higher the lower wishbone is, the less efficient the suspension system is

But there's obviously other trade offs

ye i guess, could be better airflow who knows

[gritty tulip]

Can someone explain to me the Spanish GP crash of 2016 between rosberg and Hamilton

Apparently rosberg had a different configuration than Hamilton at the start

[abstract pawn]

Yes when Rosberg went to start the Formation Lap he went to some sort of "Formation Lap Mode" with less power and whatever just like Lewis

And then Lewis went to the correct engine mode for the start of the race while Nico did not

[granite tundra]

rosberg accidentally began harvesting as he went through t2, hamilton closed faster than he was expecting and made an opportunistic move to the inside, and rosberg committed to closing the door too late

[abstract pawn]

But Nico's launch map overrode the lower engine mode so he still had a good start

But then at the exit of Turn 2 as he was in a lower engine mode he started harvesting energy

And as Lewis was in the correct better engine mode he gained massively on Nico through Turn 3

[granite tundra]

ERS mapping at the start doesn't really matter anyway because you're not allowed to deploy as you get off the line

so it started manifesting itself at the first couple of acceleration zones where he needed the extra deployment

[abstract pawn]

Then when Nico realized it he went for the overtake button but then it was too late and he went to cover the inside too late

And the rest is history

[gritty tulip]

So normally when do they use harvesting mode?

[short ether]

what is this?

[tropic shoal]

Formula 1 brake

İ cant send this in photo , i use mobile phone now :/

[crimson granite]

i cant even open this file

[tropic shoal]

i send photo now

[tropic shoal]

@short ether

[crimson granite]

which car is this for?

[smoky trout]

During SC and VSC stuff, braking points or after huge energy deployment

[gritty tulip]

SC?

[granite tundra]

..if you have to ask what SC stands for, this might not be the channel for you

[crimson granite]

could anyone send pics of Alpine's upgrades?

[smoky trout]

Safety Car

[gritty tulip]

Got it thanks ser

[smoky trout]

VSC is Virtual Safety Car

yea

[zenith tartan]

This is the Mercs front brake ducts.

[gleaming pebble]

Does anyone have pictures of strolls upgrade? If not where are the upgrades located on the car

[abstract pawn]

Just the floor iirc

[gleaming pebble]

Ok thank you

[tropic shoal]

İ dont know :/

[short ether]

I'mma go out on a Whim and say Alpha Tauri

[zenith tartan]

this is the only pic i could find. But i dont know whether this is worth 0.5 secs as Ted was claiming.

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1388201685818937344?s=20

Craig Scarborough (@ScarbsTech)

Little fin added ahead of the rear tyre on the Aston Martin #F1

Likes

229

Twitter · Apr 30, 2021, 6:40 PM

Maybe this is a small part of an larger update package for next race.

[gleaming pebble]

ok thank you very much

[ancient quest]

That sounds like the most reasonable explanation tbh

[short ether]

Wow

What a difference

[short ether]

Well even small stuff like that can change a lot but idk if this is very effective. I don't really know what the part intents to do. @ not an aerodynamicist could you explain better? (Didnt want to ping)

[quick wind]

Hello

Do ping me its fine

Let me take a look...

attempting to model this in a cad program...

[granite tundra]

ah please share.. to me it just looks like it's trying to control squirt a bit better

the new VG looks inboard enough to the point where it's directing a significant amount of flow across the inner face of the tyre

i'm struggling to work out its AoA but i'm wondering if that's directing the flow downwards as well

[quick wind]

urgh does anyone have a better picture lmao

[quick wind]

Well that was painful

Haha that's amazing my program just froze

🕳️👨‍🦼💨

[granite tundra]

the mad man actually did it

are you going to be modelling the rotation of the rear tyre and underbody of the floor/diffuser?

[quick wind]

If I did it would mean I put more effort into this than my actual IB Coursework lmfao

[granite tundra]

lmfao

i love the effort but tbh i'm not sure how informative a CFD run would be

at least, if my theory that it's there to control tyre squirt is correct

though it would be good to see what the element itself is doing

[quick wind]

CFD run would be very very uninformative

[granite tundra]

https://giphy.com/gifs/starwars-star-wars-episode-3-3o84sw9CmwYpAnRRni

join the club of people who have done CFD for pointless online debates

[quick wind]

But yeah its definitely to combat tyre squirt

god they couldn't've picked a better word for it

[granite tundra]

tyre.. leakage

i'm just interested about why it continues outboard by such an amount

actually i guess the actual element is still twisted and has an up-flick at the end

does sort of seem like an odd position relative to the tyre though, i can see what the inboard section of the winglet is doing, but the outboard piece is effectively at the center of the tyre

[quick wind]

god i do love doing things pointlessly

[granite tundra]

you look at other floors and the VGs/punchouts tend to be closer to the centerline

could just be perspective though

run t h e s i m

i'm curious to see what sort of stuff you can see at the inboard section

[quick wind]

yes that's true

it should be at the centre line

🤡

[granite tundra]

yes

[quick wind]

RUN THE SIM ANYWAY LMAO

[granite tundra]

combat tyre squirt by sealing the center of the diffuser

truly big brain time

can't have any interference with the diffuser airflow if it's at ambient conditions already

[quick wind]

Not exactly sure how im going to model wheel rotation using this shitass of a program that i have installed (Autodesk CFD)

[granite tundra]

oh you're not on starccm?

[quick wind]

No thats at college

[granite tundra]

you can't remote in?

that seems stupid

starccm is power on demand anyway

at least, ours is

anyway, you can probably get away without a rotating wheel. i'm mostly curious to see if the inboard section is feeding any vortices down and to the side of the wheel

[quick wind]

aaaa

i really cant be arsed at this time

[granite tundra]

disappoint

at least you're living up to your name

[quick wind]

Indeed

[granite tundra]

actually quick q, are you marshalling anywhere else soon?

[quick wind]

yes

Probably scrutineering moreoften

[granite tundra]

good shout.. i was gonna try to get some admin work done with msuk if i didn't hear back from the fia

and i'm actually driving at croft and brands soon, i guess there's a chance we might bump into each other

[quick wind]

will make a note to scrutineer you hard

[granite tundra]

uwu please do

we got pulled up once because our external cutoff handles were too far from the centre of the car

that's probably the hardest we've been scrutineered

[quick wind]

imagine failing sound requirements

[granite tundra]

oh we've failed noise tests plenty of times

cadwell tend to be super strict

maybe you can go up there and knock some sense into them

[quick wind]

but the rules are the rules

[granite tundra]

bitch we're burning £5,000 every race weekend, WE make the rules

[quick wind]

what series is it even

wallahi if it's Formula Student

[granite tundra]

uhh actually idk what series it is

[quick wind]

You guys always patronise me

[granite tundra]

it used to be a one-make BMW series but we've stopped doing that

then.. tracksport enduro but i think we've stopped that as well

i think we're just testing atm and getting the car dialled in

[granite tundra]

you get patronised by FSAE?

[quick wind]

College students... the nerve

It's because im very young in the field haha

Still funny when I can land them a fat fail

[granite tundra]

most FSAE engineers i've met are too depressed to patronise others

they always look like they're one failed CFD run away from just ending it all

[quick wind]

Well in most cases if they're looking to blow off their steam of depression it usually finds its way to me

[granite tundra]

the punching bag, nice

[quick wind]

Although, it really does distinguish which teams actually have a good work ethic

simply, its called the ant test.

[granite tundra]

frankly i don't really regret not getting involved with fsae

looking back i just dont think i wouldve had the time

[quick wind]

It's helpful and all for connections but only do it if you have time yes.

[granite tundra]

i'll definitely keep an eye out for what else i can do on the msc

could maybe open up some opportunities for tilke or other circuit design companies

or just nepotism my way into MSUK

[quick wind]

Absolutely no

[granite tundra]

uh, yes

i was gonna use my contacts™️ to do some stuff over the summer anyway

assuming the fia don't suddenly decide they want me after all

[quick wind]

That is likely to be the case unfortunately

[granite tundra]

yeah unsurprising

though i guess i shouldn't be shocked that their HR process is as useless as the rest of the organisation

..you better not be feeding all of this back to them

[quick wind]

Why would i haha

[granite tundra]

maybe you're after that job yourself

[sick drift]

with the new technical regulations coming in for 2022 and ground effect being brought back

i understand how ground effect works but how did it cause cars to take of?

[raw nest]

I think when the cars touched the ground at the back or in the middle, the air had no real way to go and took the car with it

[short ether]

You had three issues

Porpoising, bottoming out, and actual contact

[sudden coral]

Lmao

Nvm

[short ether]

Porpoising is where the track surface bumps, combined with the then very stiff suspension, would cause the skirts on the car to find a bouncing rhythm

This would violently fluctuate downforce figures underneath from 100% to like 25% or so, which meant that cars could suddenly just lose all grip and launch off of something like a Kerb

Bottoming out would do similar, because the car hits the track and all the underfloor would have a bumnch of air that now can't travel, and also means the tyres aren't the main contact patch

And physical contact, like Gilles Villeneuve, where the front would lift, only the seals or downforce would stay at the rear, and as it went further and further back, the downforce near the rear would work better with less car to pull upwards

Similar to the Mercedes CLR in 1999

[static quiver]

ok

what

[short ether]

What?

[cursive wraith]

Didn't the Merc CLR have a suspension tht was more towards the back

I meant tuning wise

So the front was a bit lifted

[short ether]

No, it was neutral

So it had no rake... The issue is whenever it gained speed, that'd turn into negative rake

oh

So no but kinda

[cursive wraith]

Ah k

I thought the front was lifted so when it was moving fast the air would basically be pushing the car upwards from down creating lesser downforce

and when you would have no contact with the ground then

[short ether]

Well no... The front and rear would be equal, the huge diffuser outweighing the featureless front, the car would tip upward, the front would make less downforce, the rear would make more downforce

[granite tundra]

although once you start rotating the car and its nose is going up, you should see a decrease in rear downforce

but that becomes a bit irrelevant because the nose is up and you've suddenly got a massive amount of air going under the car

and then the downforce becomes upforce

[cursive wraith]

exactly

and the merc literally was in the air at tht moment so there was no downforce acting on it

So with all the upforce it just launched upwards

[short eagle]

what do they mean with the new floors

from 2021 regulations

[short ether]

What... I can't quite tell what you're asking

[short eagle]

in the begining of the season there were new floor regulations right?

[barren silo]

they decreased downforce ig to save the tires and make them last longer

[short eagle]

ok thx

is that the reason why the RB is so close to the Merc's

[barren silo]

yep

w11 had insane downforce

w12 now lacks that and hence pace is a bit slow

[short eagle]

ow ok thx...

[short ether]

I think it's more that Mercedes now have some Diva balance issues cropping up

[feral vessel]

I think the short Wheelbase was a factor too in that

[short ether]

... But Merc has the longest

[barren silo]

rb is short

[feral vessel]

I was on about the Mercedes CLR incident

[short ether]

Oooh

Yeah they had the longest rear overhang, short wheelbase, moderate front overhang

[empty pelican]

Yeq

[smoky trout]

Can someone explain this ?

[granite tundra]

explain what?

[raw nest]

The car is on trolley wheels what explaining?

[short ether]

The diffuser strakes?

[kindred bramble]

the car is being moved?

[raw nest]

Well McLaren has found a loophole in the Regulations to run more Difusors MM's. The Task of the Difusor should be pretty clear

[short ether]

... Okay, but like, man hasn't answered what he wants

[boreal ginkgo]

https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/status/1390597732943937538?s=09

Albert Fabrega (@AlbertFabrega)

Nueva ala delantera para McLaren

New front wing for McLaren.

Likes

443

Twitter · May 7, 2021, 9:21 AM

[short ether]

Interesting they haven't gone for the little vortex bump on the mainplane

[normal plank]

Can this really help them?

[smoky trout]

Thank you

[smoky trout]

I did not see the trolly there, thought it was something else

[short ether]

Ooooh

Aerodynamic baby wheels

[raw nest]

Stabilizers

[slate forge]

So mclaren achieved extra downforce

[smoky trout]

👀

lol

[abstract pawn]

I have a small question here, and it might be silly because it might be more obvious than I realize.

But I was listening to some Haas radio just earlier, and they said "you can go to SPARK 3".

And I then remembered that I have heard that both from Ferrari and Alfa Romeo engineers in the past as well.

But never from any Renault/Honda/Mercedes engineers, so is there anyone that would have any idea of what the "SPARK" settings do?

[short ether]

I assume it's either ERS or Ignition timing

[granite tundra]

yep my bet would be ignition timing as well

[abstract pawn]

What difference (if any) would that make to the performance?

[short ether]

You make ignition timing more and more advanced to increase power obviously to a point before fuel knocks

But retarding it means you'll have less power, and I assume the compensation being fuel

[granite tundra]

no

[short ether]

What?

[granite tundra]

some guy posted his channel and asked us to subscribe

[short ether]

O

[tropic shoal]

Formula 1 Engine wow

[short ether]

Why's it so cropped?

[granite tundra]

to let you appreciate the individual pixels

[short ether]

https://silodrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/McLaren-Mercedes-MP4-19-Formula-1-Engine-6.jpg

There we go

[crimson granite]

That's a V10?

[short ether]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-chad-gif-18386674

[crimson granite]

Thank you

Which year?

[short ether]

2003

[pine viper]

What’s the purpose of these?

[abstract pawn]

Cooling

[pine viper]

Oh

Ok

[short ether]

F1 cars don't have ways to sit and keep cool

They just overheat if they sit

[viscid turret]

Yeah

They need air flowing into them

To cool the cars

Which, when they are driving ofc happens but when they are sitting still there's not enough air going in so they need that.

[stray elk]

+f1

[short ether]

Question: I have heard people saying that SF90 was not actually original and had some "cheats" to make it superior. Even though FIA has not confirmed and rule breaches, I still cannot forget how fast that car was. I personally think that Ferrari could not make a massive mistake to turn their car to the SF1000 and be in the midfield. As I know, there were no major changes for the 2020 cars but I may be wrong. Has Ferrari just messed up their development like in 1980? Or has FIA kept the fact that the SF90 was a cheat as a secret to prevent the Tifosi from getting upset? After all Ferrari is a huge brand and what you do to them could cause major consequences. How could they suddenly be uncompetitive?

[upper ivy]

The true details of what Ferrari did and how the deal between them and the FIA looks may never be revealed. We really just know for sure that they had something going on with their engine in 2019, couldn't use that anymore in 2020, and thus had a lot less power.

The most common theory is that Ferrari did something to bypass the fuel flow limit; and the FIA knew something was wrong but couldn't completely prove what Ferrari did, so they agreed to that deal where Ferrari got away without a specific penalty but had to help the FIA to monitor stuff like this in the future.

As for why the 2020 car was so bad, well, it's assumed that Ferrari built a car with lots of downforce (=drag) which wouldn't have been a problem with the stronger engine, but since they couldn't do whatever they had done anymore the engine didn't develop enough power to compensate that.

In February some statements from Mika Salo were revealed where he claimed that Ferrari had kind of a secret punishment by having to use less fuel, but that should probably be taken with a grain of salt.

[short ether]

The common consensus is for the SF90 is that Ferrari had been able to circumvent fuel flow by having a controlled Charge Cooler Fluid leak to add some to the fuel mix

Which is considered why the Ferrari's had some mad exhaust smonk when they started up

Even if this in itself wasn't a good fuel, it'd be like Methanol Water injection which'd decrease the temperature in the combustion chamber, effectively raising the Octane of the fuel

Which means more compression up to the max of 18:1, which means more power per stroke

[short ether]

So, from what we know Ferrari had a powerful engine back in 2019, which would have allowed to engineers to extract more downforce because the engine could handle it. The secret that the FIA could not solve may have been something related to the controlled Charge Cooler Fluid then. Which actually would explain the straight line speed of the Ferrari and also AlfaRomeo? AlfaRomeo had a very high straight line speed compared to the other midfield teams, which could be the result of the ICE, a Ferrari unit.

And looking back to all the evidence and the claims it seems pretty likely that Ferrari's power unit was the key to the 2019 car being very competitive.

However, what we may never know is: Why has FIA did not do any further investigation, if they also thought that there was something weird about the 2019 car?

AlfaRomeo had a very high straight line speed compared to the other midfield teams, which could be the result of the ICE, a Ferrari unit.

More like lower downforce and drag levels

[short ether]

Could also be low downforce, but we never have the data of the car in our hands... So we have to guess.

If they had big downforce and the same PU, they'd have achieved more than 1x 4th place and 8th in the standings

Ye but, the PU is still a Ferrari unit. Only reason that the one at AlfaRomeo being less powerful is because:

1. Ferrari did not supply AlfaRomeo with the controlled Charge Cooler Fluid.
   or
2. Ferrari did not want to supply AlfaRomeo with a PU as powerful as theirs, because they are still rivals int the same sport.
   ooooor
3. It would raise suspicion if BOTH the Ferrari powered cars were suddenly more competitive. So, Ferrari wanted to keep it discreet.

2. is rubbish cause it helps them if theu can snatch away any bad position rb or Mercedes could leave on the table

A good power unit is useless against them unless you have good aero and drivers to match it. And why would you want another team to catch you up??? Even if you are allies. AT is RedBull's other team and they don't want them to get into the way of their fight with Mercedes do they? I think it makes sense to suggest that.

Officially, you're not legally allowed to give customer teams outdated engines anymore

So I assume for 2019, Ferrari were the only ones cheating, but the punishment was on every Ferrari engine made

[abstract pawn]

Yes

Because in 2020 all Ferrari powered teams were slower than the year before at the same track

And the loss seemed to come mainly from the straights

[short ether]

Which makes me actually believe Salo

[short ether]

If you have customers that can perform well, while still being lower than you, you'd be content. Say if the 2md RB has an issue and is out of the points, and an AT can be ahead of the 2nd Mercedes thabks to the PU, you're gucci right, as Helmut Marko

I find it odd...

You can't have the benefit that Gr.C had, being that... Customer teams overtaking factory teams make more sales

Because the Customer teams are usually commercial rivals

I agree, I don't feel like a team would give superior advantage over another team. Not even in F1, in other cases, the supplier would not want their customers to be better than they are.

Because then, they would lose their status of being better than other rivals.

[granite tundra]

their hands are pretty much tied though, OEMs are obliged to supply identical hardware and software to their customers

[short ether]

Even with that rule, an engine cannot be the exact same as the other ones. One will be better than the others and one which is the worst of the bunch. And normally, Ferrari would keep the "best" one to themselves. And no one can say anything to that, because its not like they tried to make different engines.

[granite tundra]

that really doesn't mean much because you're getting down into the minutia of some components being 'binned' slightly higher than others

and the allocation of components in the pool isn't reasonably something that can be used to influence performance across the parent or customer team

the sporting regs also expressly prevent what you're saying

[short ether]

It can, in some cases. Remember the 2007 GTR with the handbuilt engine? Its power could vary a lot, almost by a 100 HP. So it can and may still happen.

[granite tundra]

huh? no it can't happen in f1

+/-100hp variations across components is wildly outside the regulations

[short ether]

Im not saying the difference will be 100HP, it can be less. Im just trying to say that this variety can happen between handbuilt engines.

[granite tundra]

the differences across components are very marginal

because they have to be

[short ether]

They aren't allowed to

The Engines are factory sealed and advised by an FIA Technical geez

[green marlin]

Out of curiosity, where does one learn about aerodynamics? (To this day I am only 15 years old so my knowledge of maths and physics are quite limited) I have been interested in learning more about it for quite a while now. (Both for F1 cars and general racing cars)

[short ether]

For basics about aerodynamics and physics there are multiple documents online which are good to read. I would suggest you to visit Google Scholar to search for some articles and pdf documents.

You can search up the particular topic you want to learn about and it will give you a list of srticles and books about them.

Access Google Scholar from here: https://scholar.google.com/schhp?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5

What... What bits do you wanna know?

[green marlin]

Oh thats awesome. I have never heard about Google Scholar before. Thanks a lot for the tips.

[green marlin]

Pretty much every bit that have with aerodynamics to do.

[short ether]

I would say start with physics, then it will lead you towards aerodynamics. I feel like its a good place to start but it also depends on the kind of person you are. Choice is yours. 🙂

I would recommend MulsannesCorner, they have an aero database too where you can see raw downforce/drag figures of cars like the TS010, which was... alot

[granite tundra]

NASA have some good basic introductions to aerodynamics

[short ether]

AH

[green marlin]

Cool. I like physics and I am going to do physics at school in 2 years. I think learning a mix of physics and aerodynamics could be a nice way to learn it.

[short ether]

Ye I saw them provide some software as well for students and those who interested.

[green marlin]

What are "MulsannesCorner"?

[short ether]

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/

[green marlin]

I'll check it out. Is there any special place I have to go?

[short ether]

It's more general technical

But

[green marlin]

Sounds good to me anyway!

[granite tundra]

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/bga.html

[green marlin]

Thanks a lot!

[short ether]

There are also 2 CART IndyCar Docudramas from 1995-1997 time which shows the use of flow vis and windtunnels by Lola

[green marlin]

Where do I find em?

[short ether]

Which is something you don't really get from F1, because it's a bit... More closed doors

[green marlin]

Ye

[short ether]

I'll DM em

[green marlin]

F1 are quite closed.

Aight

Thanks

[short ether]

Oh huh

[short ether]

Never figured that out

[cursive wraith]

Wait what i thought less downforce less drag

[crimson granite]

Same lmao

Downforce can certainly make your car more stable, but when you are going for sheer speed, downforce can actually be a hindrance. Any increase in downforce also means an increase in drag.

I'm confused now lmao

[cursive wraith]

Exactly

Ferrari had created a downforce car in 2020 which made it draggy as hell and their engine was shit

More downforce more drag

Less downforce less drag

Right?

[static quiver]

?

[crimson granite]

Thats what i thought

[cursive wraith]

Well you are wrong

Considering your username too

[static quiver]

uhhhhh

i think hes right

nvm

ur right yea

i can t reeeeeed

[cursive wraith]

So strange tht is username was "Not an aerodynamist "

[static quiver]

lol

[short ether]

?? You were the guy we contact if we have questions about aero and you give reasonable evidence to support your claims + you are an FIA official. What is the reason you posted that and didn't say anything about what you posted?

[short ether]

I think his image is what you want to achieve, not one implies the other

[drowsy nacelle]

+1

[crimson granite]

Oh okay i get it

[drowsy nacelle]

He was replying to that guy asking to learn about aero

Thats about it

More downforce

Less Drag

and you are good to go

[short ether]

Ferrari went the easy route in 2019, more downforce with more drag because their PU could make up the difference. And in 2020 it showed

[drowsy nacelle]

True. Does anybody have any info on the new Ferrari PUs? They were going to be different and better this year

So anything on what they changed or improved. I could only find some open ended articles.

[short ether]

@cursive wraith @crimson granite @static quiver
You completely lost the point... The point is you try and make your new design more Aerodynamically efficient, so you make more downforce for the same amount, or even less drag. It wasn't saying a law of physics, it was baking down how to make a new car

[limber sluice]

The Ferraris were a sitting duck at Portimao when both Leclerc-Sainz parted from the DRS train

But they certainly have a relatively good car in the corners

[drowsy nacelle]

Yh, they are better placed because of the quali somehow as far as I understand :p

But still, I wonder whats up with them

Cause of the next season suspense :E

[limber sluice]

but leclerc blew away the midfield on Sunday

i was expecting them to be like gasly, alonso, vettel scrap becuase they were so close in quali

[drowsy nacelle]

Yh, he was def faster than expected

He pulled few stints like that last year as well. Really good with the package, considering Ferrari were building the car around him.

He specifically has a good quali pace and has been far more consistent then what I expected.

[limber sluice]

yeah thats a very good point. the Ferrari last year was good on its tyres

and yeah, cars havent changed much. the aero package, this year actually helps tyres conservation, and over it the rubber, this year is stronger

so thats a very fast ferrari if my 'total guesswork' is right

[crimson granite]

I'm quite dumb so i wouldnt have gotten that picture. My bad

[short ether]

Nah nah nah

You're not dumb

We're not doing this self hatred thing today

[cursive wraith]

oh sorry m8

[short ether]

Oh boi my tone's come off wrong

[crimson granite]

lmaoo

[drowsy nacelle]

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[quick wind]

Sorry I think I've seem to accidentally pasted that

[short ether]

Ye thought so. No worries, these happen. 🙂

[cursive wraith]

m8 i didn't know you were an FIA Official

[abstract pawn]

F1*

[drowsy nacelle]

F1 Official does sound like an FIA guy though

Maybe the role needs a better name

[upper ivy]

wait is he actually?

[abstract pawn]

Formula 1 Official means Formula 1 Official

And FIA Official would mean FIA Official

[abstract pawn]

Yes only people that can prove they are motorsport affiliated or whatever get the roles in question

[abstract pawn]

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1392459562805088264?s=20

Craig Scarborough (@ScarbsTech)

Wheel force sensors bring used by @AlpineF1Team at the #F1 @pirellisport tyre test.
The measure the forces at the wheel, combined with suspension and ride height data, this helps to build the sim model for the tyres
https://t.co/nbqIIYOXNK

Twitter · May 12, 2021, 12:40 PM

[mortal lynx]

Its that for the sedans?

[crimson granite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBWUefSl5tI

Could someone explain how this doesnt count as a movable aero piece?

[soft shadow]

It's actually not clear yet, it has only been noticed as of recent, just like every innovation

Afaik, the so called "Bendy" wings act like anti-DRS

[abstract pawn]

The wings are allowed a certain amount of movement

And from what I gather there is always a bit of flex in the rear wing

[crimson granite]

so whats the limit on how much a component flex?

[abstract pawn]

Not more than one degree horizontally or 3mm vertically

[smoky trout]

and what's the 20 % tolerance ?

[rich gust]

Are current F1 cars just as wide or wider than F1 cars of the late 80s

Like the MP4/4

[tight wharf]

wider

much much wider

[short ether]

Not much much wider but definitely wider than their predecessors. The actual difference is at the length of the cars.

[tight wharf]

I don't think that's accurate but ok

[crimson granite]

This is the only comparison i could find

[short ether]

F1 cars from the 1970's-1992 were the widest oof

[sleek stream]

Hey, I have to make projects for school, and we were at liberty to choose the topic, for chemistry, i chose the research question as "How do carbon fibre polymer composites warranty performance, reliability and safety in Formula 1 ?" and for physics i chose the importance of aerodynamics in F1
So if anyone could give some good reliable sources of info, that would be very helpful and greatly appreciated

[low warren]

I believe Adrian Newey wrote a book about working with RB's cars but I don't know how technical it is, I haven't read it. There's some other racecar engineering books out there. "Reliable" sources in the traditional sense (research papers and such) are hard because all that data and engineering is proprietary, so all you can really get your hands on is external analyses and things like Newey's book, and general aerodynamics knowledge.

Although if you aren't looking to get too technical (cause this sounds like a high school thing?) you might be able to just talk about the basics of drag and downforce and how it affects grip, acceleration, etc

[sleek stream]

It actually has to be quite a bit technical coz we are supposed to come up with our own hypothesis from data and primary research

but thank you, i'll go through newey's book

[low warren]

Gotcha. I'm pretty alright with aerodynamics, let me know if I can help understand anything

I'm not terrible at materials science either (for the carbon fiber stuff)

[short ether]

It's quite technical I've read ot

Mostly about suspension geometry

The only material stuff he talks about is whining about Williams still using an aluminium casing for their gearbox and not a carbon fibre one

[low warren]

Lmao that's something I'd whine about

Any interesting aero stuff? @short ether

[short ether]

Plenty of you're into f1 history! Dude has seen and done so many things

[low warren]

Excellent I may have to check it out

[sleek jackal]

I entered here for seeing what do you talk about and I'm actually amazed of you knowledge xd

[limpid shoal]

What is wrong with the back wing/drs from RB

[short ether]

There's a maximum deflection of flexibility in the rules for the rear wing to flex by, because of course you can't stop it flexing entirely, but allowing it to flex significantly allows it to work like a DRS, as the more it leans backward, the more it reduces it's downforce and drag

What Red Bull have been able to do time and again is have it legal for the tests of putting weight on it, but then allow it to deform above that test

Similar to their front wings

[dawn kernel]

ive seen videos about flexing wings

[twin fjord]

So they're allowed to flex till the red lines?

[short ether]

At least at the time of those regs, which're 2000,yes

And I think that 3° deflection is still the case

[potent anchor]

Red Bull does something that passes the test. The FIA reacts instantly because their golden sponsors complained while DAS stayed on the car for a whole season.

[abstract pawn]

DAS was not illegal, DAS was more of a loophole.

And in case you did not know it was banned for this season.

[potent anchor]

This is also a loophole

[abstract pawn]

At the moment, Red Bull's rear wing is not illegal either.

But it could turn out to be if it does not pass the new FIA tests.

[potent anchor]

They introduced the new tests only because Mercedes lodged the complaint

No other team would have warranted new tests

[abstract pawn]

And that is completely fine, teams are allowed to ask the FIA to look into stuff further if they believe something is not following the regulations.

Just like how Red Bull asked the FIA to look into DAS, because they were unsure it was following the regulations.

Or how Red Bull asked the FIA to look into the Ferrari engine in 2019.

[potent anchor]

And the Ferrari engines got not illegal for 2020. DAS was allowed to stay on the car for the whole season. The FIA in most cases has allowed the teams to keep new thing for the season. Unless the complaint is lodged by their main sponsors. Used to be Ferrari now it is Mercedes

[abstract pawn]

And who has said Red Bull's rear wing is illegal?

Has their rear wing been declared illegal?

[short ether]

it hasn't

[potent anchor]

It will be most likely

[abstract pawn]

And like, they are not only going to investigate Red Bull's rear wing

They are going to have new tests done on all rear wings..

[short ether]

if complaints are filed for every rear wing ye

[abstract pawn]

Well, there has not been a formal complaint made about the rear wing.

Hamilton has just said Red Bull had "a bendy rear wing" and then the FIA sent out a letter to all the teams.

Saying they were worried some teams might be getting a performance advantage over the others through having a rear wing that does not follow the regulations.

[potent anchor]

Why are they testing just on one drivers comment's?

[abstract pawn]

But on Tuesday, sources have revealed that the FIA has written to all teams and informed them that it is concerned some are exploiting designs that pass the static tests but still flex at speed.

In the note, a copy of which has been seen by Motorsport.com, the FIA states that it is aware of designs that comply with the current tests but ‘nonetheless exhibit excessive deflections while the cars are in motion.”

It adds: “We believe that such deformations can have a significant influence on the car’s aerodynamic performance.”

In response to its concerns, the FIA has stated that it is to enact a clause in F1’s technical regulations that allows it to introduce new tests.

Article 3.9.9 of F1’s Technical Regulations states: “The FIA reserves the right to introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of), moving whilst the car is in motion.”

[potent anchor]

Thanks. This is worded differently than the BBC article I read

BBC is garbage and usually biased should have went to autosport

[teal oasis]

BBC f1 articles are awful

[granite tundra]

please don't bring nonsense like this into the technical channel

[potent anchor]

While not chat relevant you can't ignore that the FIA is biased towards certain teams

[granite tundra]

trying to somehow spin that narrative into a DAS vs wing flex argument is total bullshit

although if you want to start slinging mud and talking about "main sponsors", the FIA were acting against mercedes' best interests when banning DAS

[potent anchor]

I wasn't trying to compare this to DAS just weird how one team has a loophole but is let have it while others get further testing, but that isn't for this chat

[granite tundra]

it's not weird because they're entirely separate issues

[teal oasis]

You can’t compare them

[granite tundra]

DAS was completely compliant with the technical regulations and mercedes were in contact with the FIA throughout its development

there is no reasonable situation in which extended testing would change the legality of the components

whereas there is already precedent for tightening load tests, because aeroelasticity is so hard to regulate

[potent anchor]

All right. It seems I was wrong about the testing being a way for some mid season regulation changes

[short ether]

... Wait is the wing flex changes being brought in mid season, or next season?

Also the difference between DAS and this is... Red Bull have done this a couple of times before, and Flexi wings have been an issue for a couple decades

DAS... Hasn't been a thing

You're making a conspiracy fight bruv

[crimson granite]

Mid season

[short ether]

Oh pof

[crimson granite]

Iirc it’ll happen by the French GP

[jolly patrol]

They will introduce new tests to insure it cannot break under lots of pressure

If it manages to pass the test redbull will be allowed to keep it

[mortal lynx]

[boreal ginkgo]

this the sf1000?

[smoky trout]

Looks like it

[boreal ginkgo]

yea it looks slow :D

[smoky trout]

lol

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/650814123180818444.gif?v=1&size=40

[mortal lynx]

[short ether]

Mhm and?

[short ether]

[granite tundra]

Could we not start dropping inane shit in this channel?

[ripe sorrel]

[short ether]

Today I learnt why F1 Engine fuel suppliers crack down IsoButanol/IsoButene/IsoButane to make IsoOctane, other than the objective 100 RON Octane

Because it has... Well, everything needed to make a good race fuel for F1

It has a:

44.539mj/kg Lower Heating Value, which is slightly higher than the Petrol average I've found
690kg/m^3 physical density, which is way lower than Petrol's 747, which is great for 100kg/hr fuel flow rates
15.1 Stoichiometric ratio, which is leaner than Petrol's 14.7... Again, great for 100kg/hr

[short ether]

Hmmm interesting. To quote a wise man, that'd be pogtastic.

Not sure what the lower heating value implies though

[short ether]

Lower Heating Value is the energy given off as a net value, rather than the Higher/Gross value, the lower accounting for losses to heat up things like water

So it means at the very least the combustion will yoeld 44.539mj/kg, but it can be more?

[short ether]

It means that is the actual energy release that's given off after accounting for losses. Similar to how old V8's were rated in Gross Brake Horsepower, which didn't account for mechanically drives pumps which'd take about 65bhp or so out of them

thanks 🙂

So that couple of Mj per kg would be used to just heat humidity in the air and in the resulting combustion, which isn't useful for combustion of actual... Y'know things you wanna combust

[void ibex]

Has anyone seen the talk about the flexible rear wing that’s on the Red Bull’s this year? I thought that was banned a few years ago but I guess they got around it which is pretty interesting

Oh wait never mind, disregard that message haha I see there was a whole discussion about it above

[cursive wraith]

lmao

[short ether]

[weary seal]

I Can some please explained short shifiting

i am so confused abou tit

[abstract pawn]

You shift earlier than normal

[weary seal]

what does that do

[abstract pawn]

To save fuel or save tires

[weary seal]

ohh

is their any down sides

[granite tundra]

short shifting means you're not staying in the ideal powerband, so you're losing out on acceleration

[upper ivy]

does it help with acceleration under certain conditions? (e.g. on a wet surface to prevent the tyres from slipping)

[granite tundra]

yeah you can also use it to try and manage wheelspin in the wet

[smoky trout]

So less powah to the wheels.

Correct ?

[short ether]

Correct, less horsepower, as you are lower down in the rev range. I suppose you can use it to avoid wheelspin when its raining or if you are coming out of a corner. It helps manage the power and somewhat slowly feed it I guess.

[abstract pawn]

Basically what is going on with the Honda engine according to a reliable source on F1Technical is:

• The block/piston interface is apparently too tight, so when the block retains more heat during extended use the tolerance becomes too little hence the vibration of the moving components from excessive friction
• Honda reduced the power level on all power units mid-way through the Bahrain Grand Prix weekend and have stayed at that level since
• Honda think they have a fix for it and will trial it on Tsunoda's car during practice in Monaco
• In-season development is banned this year, but reliability upgrades are allowed. This particular issue can be resolved as it is simply a case of the engine block being too tight which apparently causes an issue whtn the ICE runs at 100%

And assuming he is correct, and that a fix is found in Monaco - then it can be expected for Verstappen and Perez to take PU number two in Baku which would then have the fix in place.

Re-post from #formula-1 but I thought someone that hangs in here might find it interesting or whatever

Or TooLow will just debunk it

[granite tundra]

well nothing's jumping out at me as being unreasonable or impossible

if the source itself is legit, i think that's a decent explanation

[crimson granite]

So Honda have been running their cars a bit less on power than normal?

[reef pine]

Wait what the

So they do have an ace up their sleeve

[crimson granite]

apparently

[limber sluice]

So it's possible that gasly is running a different spec of the Honda engine

[crimson granite]

no

why would they give gasly a different spec?

[copper loom]

ok so question

i've always wondered this so i'll ask it here

were the tyres that michelin ran until the summer break in 2003 the same spec than in 2001 and 2002?

[tight wharf]

are there any top down, side and front diagrams of the halo?

[short ether]

Idk if someone here has a definite answer, but since there was a tyre war between Michelin and Bridgestone, that's very unlikely

[crimson granite]

iirc they made new tyres

[short ether]

I assume it was just an evolution of the tyres they've been running since they started in 2001, but was only called out when they got better than Bridgestone arguably

[twin fjord]

Well Alex said he was running a spec 2019 Honda engine

[raw nest]

When? You can't just run any engine you want

[crimson granite]

could you send a link of the article or whatever?

[twin fjord]

im not sure abt the article but in a sim dane video of the Red Bull Diss there was a ss of the article

[crimson granite]

I'm near to 100% sure thats false

[tacit bridge]

Sim dane is not a thing to trust

[rare geyser]

I think this point system would be good: 26 - 21 - 17 - 13 - 10 - 7 - 5 - 3 - 2 - 1
Big points for the podium, medium points for the midfield competition and 1 or 2 points for the occasional slow teams when somehow got into points.

[short ether]

You're reducing the gap between first and second which isn't good

[reef pine]

Well, this is more sporting regs than technical regs no?

[short ether]

Definitely sporting regs

[twin fjord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igY1vm6mtGc

[twin fjord]

^^

[reef pine]

formula world

[crimson granite]

It's formula world smh

[smoky trout]

What's wrong with Formula world ?

Oh

So not trustworthy ?

ok

[short ether]

[cursive wraith]

Everything

[tight wharf]

fake

[raw nest]

Its not that unreliable. They also bring up facts and real quotes but they often put something to them which leads to missunderstanding and clickbait

[tight wharf]

it is

[tight wharf]

that's called twisting the truth

albon did NOT run inequal parts to max

car*

[abstract pawn]

They always use quotes that nobody knows where they come from

[tight wharf]

he may have had worse parts but not a different car

[abstract pawn]

And they never link to any sources

[tight wharf]

^^

[raw nest]

Just read it again and think what i mean

[tight wharf]

they make up their own quotes

no

you stop believing everything you see on the internet

it'll help

[abstract pawn]

And I would not be surprised if they take quotes from multiple different other sources and put it together into one

[tight wharf]

it's on the UU list on purpose

[abstract pawn]

Because like in that video he could be pushing his own agenda

By making up quotes

[raw nest]

Man, read the freaking first part i wrote#

[nocturne dock]

[tight wharf]

no

you can't force us to read what we don't want to

[raw nest]

Then dont write shit to me which isn't right. I said they put some good and real quotes which i know from myself in, but then there are quotes which are mixed, what i realized and never believed and your 200 IQ part is to tell me to not believe everything in the internet when i already wrote it

[short ether]

Which makes what they say unreliable if they distort what's been said :)

[tight wharf]

they don't

they make quotes up from their asses most of the time

[raw nest]

For example, Max said it will be hard for this season to beat merc and it was in the F1 Press Conference and they did put that in. However tho, there are also quotes from like Toto which are a mix of RTL and SKY

[abstract pawn]

And that is exactly what makes them unreliable, they never say where they get their quotes from and they mix quotes from different other sources where the same driver might have been asked a completely different kind of question.

[raw nest]

But it is a fact that not everything is false and selfmade or something else

[abstract pawn]

While Sky might have asked Max in Spain "do you like the fight with Lewis?" and he answered "yes I do it is a great fight and I love it", RTL might have asked Max in Monaco "would you like to fight harder with Lewis?" and he says "no I think we should not fight that hard" and then Formula World put it together into one video and say "Max said he liked the fight with Lewis in Spain but in Monaco he changed his mind".

And with Formula World not saying where they get their quotes from, they could simply be pushing their own anti-someone agenda by making up quotes to make a driver and/or team to look bad because they do not like them.

Then obviously it is up to you if you want to believe in what they say, or if you want to use more reliable sources like Autosport, Motorsport, The-Race.

But there is no need for you to get upset for someone trying to tell you that Formula World is proven to be unreliable and untrusted, if you choose to ignore that yourself.

[raw nest]

I dont watch them but not everything is mixed up and that was all i said and not more

[raw nest]

I told him to read my first sentence which made that clear, no more

[nocturne dock]

why are u even arguing with staff

[abstract pawn]

That is way besides the point

[raw nest]

I made clear what i said

[smoky trout]

what are the chances that the user of Formula World might be reading all this ?

[raw nest]

Never Zero

[short ether]

are we supposed to care anyway

[limber sluice]

Lol believing formula world is a bit like believing all those youtubers who claim to have inside information regarding updates and dlcs on GTA online, GTA 6 and other popular multiplayer games

[night schooner]

i dont get it

why is the fia so shit at making rules

that make sense

[short ether]

Bruh just FIa things

They make a stupid rule coz they don't know how to regulate a thing and run out their pride that that was a good decision for 40 years

[upper ivy]

the thing with rules is you can't think of every single way people will try to circumvent them

[short ether]

What?

[raw nest]

That's a thing that makes F1 what it is

[limber sluice]

them penalizing kimi in imola was a bit like, we dont know tf we are doing, but here is a penalty

[abstract pawn]

They knew what they were doing in that case it was just two rules that contradicted each other

So no matter what Kimi did in Imola he would have had a penalty

[limber sluice]

yeah but.......

yeah ik he was screwed either way

but its a bit like.... remove the rules that are a bit out of date

and illogical

f1 has been around for 71 years now, which is exactly the same as the length of the constitution of many countries who gained independence after ww2. looks like f1 constitution is as complicated as the constitutions of many of those countries

that is a convulated reference and not related to f1 tech, but u get what i mean lol

[short ether]

what rules are a bit out of date in your opinion

[limber sluice]

hmm tough question. the constructor payment at the end of the season for starters

the ferrari veto

[short ether]

why is the constructor payment at the end of the season obsolete tho

[limber sluice]

the teams having the votes (from the glorious bernie days)

ferrari have been paid the maximum for being mediocre-average for a while

[short ether]

also, these are only Concorde agreement bits right?

[limber sluice]

yup

its part of f1. i dont think technical rules are yesterday. love the rules for 2022

some philosophies

then the rules with the helmets in 2019, and not having different liveries on the same car, small corporate niggles

[abstract pawn]

McLaren ran two different liveries on two different cars in Abu Dhabi 2018 for the Alonso farewell

So the livery rules do not actually seem too hard to get around

Although the differences were not really significant and I do not know the exact regulation on it but

[limber sluice]

force india were once fined some amount for getting the location of the drivers number wrong lol

or something

it was suspended

but yeah

[austere grail]

hi

what's a good place to start learning about F1 car engines?

[timber estuary]

Youtube?

There is this guy who goes over every part of the F1 car

[austere grail]

can you link the channel?

[timber estuary]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtbLA0YM6EpwUQhFUyPQU9Q

[austere grail]

thank you!!

[timber estuary]

:>

[short ether]

They're allowed to if every team agrees, which is usually the case with druver farewells

[short ether]

NO

@austere grail
https://www.grandprixengines.co.uk/
Mostly if you scroll down to the notes section but, there's a whole bunch of links of engine evolution at the time

[austere grail]

ohh thanks a lot

[short ether]

I just love it coz there's alot about 3.5L Engines

[reef pine]

I have GP engines bookmarked

[short ether]

Mmmm

[crimson granite]

This was used in Ligier?

[short ether]

Ligier used Mugen engines from 1995-1997

then swapped with Jordan to get the Peugeot

[crimson granite]

So was that used in the Ligier?

Or was this the Jordan one?

[crimson granite]

Wasn't it Prost?

[short ether]

yes Alain Prost bought Ligier ahead of the 97 season

but the first Prost car was called the JS45, since it was basically a Ligier

[crimson granite]

That was a good car wasn't it?

[short ether]

it was an excellent car

before his crash that would basically break his career, Panis was 3rd in the standings

This is one of the MF-301H's from the Jordan-Mugens

if only Alain didn't want a full french team

[crimson granite]

Yea panis was great

[short ether]

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/34037/1/honda-to-re-introduce-v12?amp

Well this is interesting

[crimson granite]

The 99 car?

Cause that 99 car ooooof

[short ether]

I assume the 1999 Engine, yes

[crimson granite]

So good

[short ether]

So according to that article. Ferrari, BMW, Honda and Toyota wanted to make V12's again for 2000

[crimson granite]

Ik that Toyota wanted to enter F1 with V12

[short ether]

Yeah

[crimson granite]

So then why didn't the FIA allow that?

[short ether]

But they banned other engine layouts for 2000

[crimson granite]

Frick

I wonder how that would have changed the engine scene in the future

[short ether]

Why? FIA things idk

[crimson granite]

If they introduced the V12

[short ether]

Yeah probably they'd sound... Just... Too much

[crimson granite]

Well that kinda would be insane now

Didn't the mechanics have hearing issues due to the V12's

[short ether]

... Bruv you'd have hearing issues with anything like that without hearing protectiob

The thing is... A 20,000rpm V12 would make 1,000Hz

Whereas a V10 makes 833Hz for those revs

i find it interesting how engines only produce one frequency essentially

Well... Nothing natural makes just one, that's why we have sound tone, not just pitch

Pff a 20,000rpm V12 is going into 6th Octave territory for noise

That'd be insane

yes but, only octaves

i meant one note sorry

Well like... Sorry I'm making stuff complicated

Any engine format will always conform to one root note, yes

no you're right, it's not a problem to be precise in this channel

Which is (revs×(cylinders/strokes) ) /60

Which is why something like a Detroit Diesel sounds like it's doing 7,000-8,000 instead of 3,500-4,000

And how the onboard graphs at least used to do rev counters

[night schooner]

i think they should do it like indycar, if you bring out reds in qualifying, your lap times get deleted, what do you guys think

[crimson granite]

Nah

That's not really fair is it?

[raw nest]

Its killing the faster laptimes at the end of quali with nobody wanting to completely throw everything away

[versed plume]

Man someone who is more technically intelligent please help me out

Does it look like his car has gearbox damage or no?

[raw nest]

Hard to call. His Diff is damaged tho

[short ether]

If the Differential is damaged, the Gearbox is

They're moreorless in a one piece unit

[raw nest]

The question for me is, are they able to repair it without violating rules or needing to change the box

[short ether]

They might have to

This is your gearbox... That diff wheel gets bonked, you've probably buckled one of the shafts

[raw nest]

Source?

[cursive wraith]

ferrari twitter

[raw nest]

Ah alright, his diff tho wasn't completely fine but lets see

[short ether]

Well if the casing's scraped then fine

I don't know what happened

[raw nest]

You didnt saw the crash or what?

[short ether]

No, I'm watching Indy quali

[raw nest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kab08DP664Q check it out later then

[night schooner]

its not fair for people setting laps at the end of the session either so

[cobalt hollow]

No seems kinda unfair, if the red flag was to be brought out in 20 seconds of the final session. No one will be able to set a flying lap. And tbh would kinda be weird if they will just add time to the session or restart it.

[burnt carbon]

guys idk where to ask this i have a english assignment to choose a spoken topic and i chose safety in f1 where can i get some useful recouces for this

any1 can help me out here

[granite tundra]

that's such a broad topic, you'd have to narrow it down a bit more

[burnt carbon]

in cars

specifically

[granite tundra]

well the basic design philosophy hasn't changed all that much over the last couple of decades

you have 4 crash structures designed to absorb energy and reduce the load being passed to the driver, and the survival cell which is designed to stay intact and prevent objects from ingressing into the cabin

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/monocoque.html
http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/crash_test.html

[burnt carbon]

alr thnx

[raw nest]

Ya'll probably already know but Charles his gearbox isn't that well going

[burnt carbon]

yh

no penalty tho

[raw nest]

No not that man, it's happening now

[burnt carbon]

oh

what

that is peak

he on pole as well

[raw nest]

"No no no, guys gearbox"

Car's off

He won't make the green pit light

No grid for him

[burnt carbon]

yh

lando got good chance

for a podium

is any1 not on softs?

[zenith pumice]

Can someone explain to me what exactly went wrong with Bottas' pitstop? I know he had a sticky wheelnut but apart from that not much

[dusk timber]

Sorry, what does cross threaded mean?

It was threaded the wrong way or...?

[short ether]

Cross threading is when you put on a bolt or nut or something at an angle, and on one side the threads are one step ahead of the other side

Like that

And with enough force without realising it's crossed, you strip threads, like so

[crimson granite]

Are changes required to be made or is it just a bad coincidence?

[smoky trout]

https://youtu.be/qKr7Zk3DZ9A

Check this out

[smoky trout]

Changes would be made mostly

[cursive wraith]

Guys i just read some comment

Do you think it is true tho?

[raw nest]

Nah that's not true i think

At that point they were challenging the bulls so no sense

[cursive wraith]

yeah tht is what i was thinking

[native tulip]

no

[upper ivy]

obviously not

he doesn't even get the direction of rotation right

[raw nest]

If it is, then that was his last race for the team so also no sense

[abstract pawn]

Why the hell would a mechanic have something out for Bottas

And purposefully ruin Bottas' race

[upper ivy]

the tool spins clockwise for the mechanic, which means the motor must try to spin the wheel-nut anti-clockwise aka to the left, to make it lose. I doubt they use differently oriented threads on both sides of the car.

[abstract pawn]

You can also see on the wheel gun the mechanic puts it into untighten mode after every try

The mechanic that also gives him the backup gun also puts it into untighten mode

And even if that mechanic was out to get Bottas to ruin his race on purpose by tightening the nut instead of untightening someone else would have noticed

Because there were like five other mechanics watching him

[cursive wraith]

yeah i know it was just random trashtalk by tht guy

[granite tundra]

..so why put it in #f1-technical ?

[raw nest]

that is pretty technical with the nut and the gun

[granite tundra]

he says he knows it's 'random trashtalk'

and it's not even technically correct

[raw nest]

but it is technical so

[granite tundra]

i could spout a bunch of bullshit using technical buzzwords that make no sense

doesn't mean it belongs in this channel

[raw nest]

This discussion isnt technical so no point to go on

[cursive wraith]

sorry won't happen again

[mortal citrus]

engine mgu-h conduction gravity downforce

[short ether]

They do

It's even the case on Supercars

[upper ivy]

wait really?

[short ether]

Yes

You use threads on the the opposite direction of rotation so when the car runs forwards, the air resistance can only tighten the nut

[upper ivy]

uuh so which direction would that be on the right side?

in the video left does seem to equal lose

[short ether]

On Bottas' front right, it'd be an anti-clockwise thread

Because the wheel would rotate clockwise

[upper ivy]

wait but when the mechanic tries to make it lose, the wheel gun handle rotates clockwise

so the gun should roate anti-clockwise to make it lose?

[short ether]

I need to see the video

[upper ivy]

https://youtu.be/GK5qm8AZ1dQ?t=98

see how the handle spins whenever he tries it again

[short ether]

Yeah so the handle spins clockwise

Because clockwise would be loosen

Ugh this sucks when tryna type stuff out

[upper ivy]

should't the handle spin in the opposite direction of what the tool itself is supposed to do

[short ether]

Oh uh...

Well you see him hitting it and it never flicks the opposite way

So I assume that gun didn't wanna rotate the other direction either

Bro I'm confused

[elder plover]

Is that wheel nut still stuck on Bottas’ right front?

[abstract pawn]

Yes

[short ether]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbnCHQAMFtE

@upper ivy

Here's some confirmation

I honestly think the gun was never switched to loosen oof

[upper ivy]

is there a way to wee which way is loosen?

i mean whatever it is; it seems to be set to rotate counter-clockwise

[short ether]

Which I just found out is down to the gun electronics

F

[abstract pawn]

Nah he definitely slaps it into untighten after every try

[short ether]

Yes

What I found out is that's also done automatically

So what happens I assume is, it starts to go Anti-Clcokwise, which is tighten. It doesn't budge
He lets go of the trigger, which busts out the cylinder to the other side, which is loosen, but everytime he smacks it back in

Therefore to go the same way every time

[abstract pawn]

When the yellow thing is pushed down it is untighten

And when it goes up it is tighten

https://youtu.be/zc3JYvvmXxw?t=32

Because if you look at the gun here

When Hamilton leaves he smacks it down to put it into untighten again

[short ether]

THAT'S ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CAR

So the threads would be Clockwise

[short ether]

Oh... Huh

Bruh gun bad

Thread badder

Lol

[raw nest]

Thats from The Race. I don’t think it has anything to do in which direction the gun was spinning, i think and as it’s said by Merc that the gun just wasn’t on properly

[ripe sorrel]

wasnt "on" properly?

the fitment of the gun to the nut?

[short ether]

So either the nut in the whee; or the gun were on at an angle where that wasn't correct for the threads/teeth and it just stripped the teeth off because the nut wwasn't going anywhere

[ripe sorrel]

so was the nut fckd prior to the pitstop?

[short ether]

Yeah idk why I got so uppity about the rotation of the gun

It wouldn't've mattered if the fitment was cross-threaded

[ripe sorrel]

right

[green marlin]

If the nut was broken or not wouldn't have mattered anyway. Have you ever rounded a screw in your porch? Why did it happen? Was it because the screw was broken or was it because the screwdriver were at a bad position?

Same thing here - just with a large screwdriver with plenty of power.

[raw nest]

I don’t want to put to much on him but it’s the mechanics fault then for me, but this happens in F1 and nobody should be really upset about him

[short ether]

I don't hate the geez or dislike the nutman 😤 but I just wanna know what went wrong

[ripe sorrel]

will merc put out a statement about this incident ?

describing the failure

[worthy monolith]

Be on the lookout for the race debrief video on their YT channel

[distant quartz]

the nutman 😩

[brave reef]

Remember the front wing of 2006 Renault car

[soft shadow]

It's technically the suspension, not the front wing

[crimson granite]

I have a question about next years cars

will the engine cover size be the same as this years car?

[smoky trout]

Probably not

[crimson granite]

So how will they fit the engine

[smoky trout]

I think there will be changes in the engine layout

It might just be like an inch smaller

[rare geyser]

Does anyone have have Red Bull and Alpha Tauri car comparison?

[rare geyser]

Other than liking the narrow look of the cars for their looking rocket like, this is another reason why F1 should not have increased the width. More width = more aero, worse racing.
Instead should have tried to reduce the weight of the cars.

[short ether]

The big overhaul of 2017 led to cars with much more downforce.. and much more dirty air

[raw nest]

They just added downforce in the wrong way

[rare geyser]

Found this but I wish I could find one with more years.

[short ether]

I remember back then We are all fearing about the Cars getting harder to overtake.
.
It slowly got better from there. Fortunately

The cars got harder to follow

This is personally why I advocate so much for the Inwash aero to come back

And also of course... Tunnels

[short ether]

Yeah but like Liberty media are trying their best to combat this with the current cars

Added More DRS Zones which is eh. But like these cars are hard to follow
.
And right now they decreased some of the downforce on the floor.

Best Solution I can say is
.

1. Make the cars smaller
2. Make them a tad slower
3. Ground Effect
   .
   Two of those things is F1 2022 are doing right now

[smoky trout]

I see all 3 in 2022

[short ether]

which thing isn't being done by the 2022 regs

[velvet river]

Are the fuel mixes from the game the same thing as party modes

The things that got banned a Monza last season

[raw nest]

No this is fuel setting how much you burn. The engine mapping from like the rpm goes faster up and slows down later in the gear, this isn't allowed anymore as far as i got that

[ripe sorrel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoDu5Oti5pw

sorry if im re-posting

human factor failure

[fringe sun]

what is the diff b/w a F1 and an Indy car?

[reef pine]

I can hear toolow coming here screeching about the third part

[viscid turret]

IndyCars are smaller and all have the same chassis made by Dallara, with "aero kits" made for road courses/street circuits and ovals (for ovals they have less aero so that they have less drag). In general IndyCar has less aero then F1. There are far less driver aids like power steering in IndyCar. The engines are from Chevrolet and Honda, and they are 2.2L V6 twin turbos, whose power unit can be adjusted depending on the race. No Hybrids, although that's planned for 2023 (but not the same kind as F1)
Also aeroscreen + halo instead of just the halo

So yeah, quite different outside of being open wheeler single seaters

[fringe sun]

oh

[paper wing]

Congrats @fringe sun, you're now on lap 15

[elder plover]

No power steering in Indycar? Why?

[short ether]

maybe it's not necessary

[elder plover]

I still remember reading F1 magazine’s review of the 2001 San Marino 🇸🇲 Grand Prix, and in the Arrows race review, it was mentioned that they weren’t running power steering on their cars, saying something about it only being required for fast corners and that there haven’t been any remaining at Imola since the 1995 revamp. With all the fast corners that many Indycar circuits have, one would think that power steering would be a necessity.

[short ether]

depends on the amount of downforce the car has

[cursive wraith]

depends a lot on downforce

[fringe sun]

wtf
it must be tough to manoeuvere them ig

[viscid shoal]

Can someone explain to me what Ground Effect is?

I heard that it is involved in the 2022 cars

but no clue how it works and what the effect is

[short ether]

Air that goes under the car is accelerated through venturi effect, and doing so lowers the pressure under the car, thus sucking it into the ground.

What we have next year is huge tunnels under the car so that more air than now can be accelerated, which produces more suction

This downforce produces a lot less dirty air than through wings

(that's how i understand it)

[viscid shoal]

ah that's nice

thanks a lot

so these tunnels replace the part that was regulated a bit more for this season?

[short ether]

The tunnels will replace the flat floor yes

[short ether]

This

Except with an interesting profile this year

[smoky trout]

And safer

Since there are no skirts

[viscid shoal]

Thanks a lot kind staff member with a spinning doggo in his profile pic

[short ether]

Well it's safer now regardless considering they use profiles to seal the tunnels off with air

Even if they're tryna curtail that for only this year

[snow anchor]

yes but the gap between merc and the others were close now

[viscid turret]

Guess what just released
https://youtu.be/Zs-trk42vFo

[austere grail]

https://www.f1technical.net/features/21555

[fringe sun]

omg lmao
will surely watch it

[mortal lynx]

About the Lotus double chassis....

[smoky trout]

This got banned later in the season or did it not get banned ?

[short ether]

it was instantly banned

and Bernie found a way to put aside one of the 3 people on the FOCA, so that only him and Frank Williams remained

on his way to become the undisputed leader of F1

[smoky trout]

I see