f1-technical

[civic fern]

Dude at this point its completely plausible as a reason why Leclerc hasn’t called for his head yet

[abstract pawn]

If Leclerc wanted to get rid of him he would have already

Considering he has enough power to keep his brother in the FDA

And make him a test driver

[flat imp]

Just development, not test driver

I hope Italian GT goes funny

I’m half tempted to keep an eye on it now just to see how nowhere that goes

[prime mortar]

very abusive

is there a xavi x charles fanfic like there are carlando fan fics

[ancient scaffold]

"Xavi, I want a divorce" "We are checking"

[prime mortar]

it would be in the masochist category

[civic fern]

“Slow button on SLOW BUTTON ON”

[silent rose]

also probably arranged marriage

[summer swift]

how come ferrari is doing so badly in terms of tyre wear

i mean maybe poor strategy and communication lead to the drivers not going easier on the tyres when they had to but idk

that would also explain the leclerc pole verstappen win cycle we keep seeing

[frigid temple]

I mean if Ferrari themselves don't know, how should anyone..

The key seems to be in the suspension, but thats just educated guesses from people who know far more than us

[short ether]

"Copy that we are checking "

[paper wing]

Congrats @short ether, you're now on lap 5

[final birch]

ah so thats why the cars looked like that? (late ass response but was just scrolling)

[sharp sundial]

Partially yeah. There’s also the fact that high noses were banned fully when we got into the turbo hybrid era, and the wide nose vs narrow nose packaging designs which is a whole other can of worms I don’t have the expertise to even pretend I know what I’m talking about

If anybody knows, why does the narrow nose have that circle on it? I’m assuming the wide nose is shaped that way to maximise airflow to the diffuser while meeting legality?

[final birch]

which circle? this bit right here?

Im guessing its to maybe redirect airflow to the brake ducts

[left geode]

https://www.ddinstagram.com/p/C11_iDJNc2n/?igsh=aWgyZGZlenFvanl6

[tall wyvern]

Much worse drag? Please

[sweet tree]

lol

How would they have more drag? 🤔

[left geode]

I think this is a easy visual comparison

[tall wyvern]

Doesn’t matter if they produce half the downforce

[left geode]

Downforce doesn't really equate drag when there's no aerodynamic efficiency

[sweet tree]

ik

What made the page say the drag was worse

[tall wyvern]

What kind of nonsense statement is this?

[tall wyvern]

He made it up

Channel should be called FSAE suspension student makes up aerodynamics

[sharp sundial]

Would you know @tall wyvern?

[edgy anchor]

They keep stepping up everytime how much power it makes and it's annoying

[edgy anchor]

Well the one he just made. If your aerowork is shoddy, you'll have a worse l:d for the same frontal area

[silent rose]

Very late but
IIRC it's 40% of race speed

Yeah, 30-40% according to motorsport.com

[tall wyvern]

Just the rules, the nose was made thinner but the nose tip had to be a certain size

[tall wyvern]

Most of the drag is from lift, given the same frontal area (which is what coefficients are normally quoted in anyway), the drag from lift is way more now because the lift is way more now

[edgy anchor]

Oh I'm dummo...

I'm pretty sure the Benetton wouldn't've had much worse drag anyway

[simple pelican]

https://youtu.be/-Bq1eD7g-MA?si=mrTdDKIx-2NS5wXh

i love this things

[prime mortar]

okay so question, because teams can now test with their 2022 cars, is it only driver testing or can they fit new body panels to test?

so could they just put the latest body panels on the 2022 car and test or do they need to keep it stock

[craggy moon]

its just driver testing

you cant add the new sidepods to the 2022 merc

how it finished the season is how it will be driven

with updated paint maybe

[tulip silo]

the carbon on formulas is a cover or the body is made out of it?

because as far as I'm aware carbon fiber is made in foldable sheets

and grinding + compressing for a solid body would be too expensive

[sweet tree]

I'm pretty sure Formula cars are mostly carbon fiber

[west nimbus]

What a handsome looking convo

[flat imp]

Finlay with a pfp?

Finlay outside ot gen?

What is this

[west nimbus]

It is expensive and a highly manual task, but formua one car bodies are made fully of carbon fibre

This is #f1-technical so I'll go into a bit of detail

[tulip silo]

go in detail as much as you can, that's what i want

[west nimbus]

You're correct in carbon fibre being a fabric material, but in this level of industry it's delivered to the manufacturer pre-impregnated with an epoxy resin matrix.

These rolls of pre-preg carbon rolls are stored in freezers, then all the plies(layers) and shapes of carbon required for the part are cut out using a CNC router.

This is then laminated into a mould(If you want to know the process behind this then I'm happy to elaborate for you too?), placed under a vacuum and then placed in an autoclave, which is esentially a big oven which is pressurised to a high pressure. The high pressure(often about 90PSI) + vacuum presses the carbon fabric into the mould, and then as the autoclave runs its cycle, the resin liquifies, runs through the part and then cures into a solid product. This is then taken out of the mould, trimmed, bonded & assembled

That's a very basic and crude explanation

But it's extremely expensive, from the labour involved & the equipment

But for this level of motorsport, it's just the norm

And lots of F1 teams will actually contract out certain parts to dedicated composite manufacturers

For example, my company in particular does a fair bit for F1 teams, such as McLaren

[sweet tree]

does carbon fiber make up most of the car

[west nimbus]

Yep, the monocoque(survival cell) is made from carbon, basically all the bodywork too

[paper wing]

Congrats @west nimbus, you're now on lap 55

[sweet tree]

im right for once

[west nimbus]

It's very labour intensive and requires skilled trade-trained operators to make. But for F1, that's worth it

[flat imp]

Everything that can be carbon fiber and needs to be solid is.

[west nimbus]

IKR! Had this PFP like a year ago lol

Here for example, just a wee something I have lying about

Yeah it started as layers of fabric, but the end result is a solid part

[tulip silo]

could you explain to me the process of getting the fibers laminated into a mould?

[flat imp]

I would crunch it

[tulip silo]

having carbon fiber around is pretty cool

[west nimbus]

To start you need a mould

There's a handful of ways of making a mould depending on use-case, such as production, prototyping etc... but for this example, we'll go for a production run example

So you start by machining a positive of your part into a plastic-like material, called pattern block, validate all the measurements are correct, and then if they are you can laminate your first mould off it. From this mould, a mould is a negative of the part you want to make. This mould is then post-cured(which is where it's subjected to temperatures higher than it'll ever experience during part-making cycles to increase strength and durability). Issue with pattern block is that it's weak and often when releasing a mould from it, bits will chip away. To avoid that, you can laminate an extremely thick part off your mould, known as a heavy. This heavy can then be used to laminate any other moulds from

The mould is then treated with a release agent, and then can be laminated into. Literally, laminating a part is esentially just laying up the fabric inside your mould, making sure to press the fabric into all the tight corners

This is an example

Fun fact: lots of moulds for carbon parts are made from carbon fibre themselves

[west nimbus]

Work in it full time 🙂

Obviously this is a very basic explanation since there's a WHOLE lot of details for every stage

But I hope it helps for a basic understanding? if not, just lmk and I can clarify anything

[tulip silo]

also since carbon fiber is woven, how are stress points dealt with? I'm talkimg damage to one side would be worse than damaga on the other depending on the fiber direction

[west nimbus]

But the cool thing is that a parts properties can be changed by how thick you make it(how many layers you apply, and even can control where you change the thickness), the direction of the carbon weave etcc

[west nimbus]

The resin matrix is really what holds the weave together

But parts are usually designed with this in mind. When laminating, often you'll have instructions for what direction the weave should be laminated in for each direction

[tulip silo]

if you don't mind imma definitely ask more questions about carbon fiber here as i gain knowledge about production and I'd be more than glad to have you around to explain as an expert in the field

[west nimbus]

Please 🙂 go for it!

Very cool and niche subject

[tulip silo]

btw if you don't mind me asking what did you study as/what is needed to work in automotive material production?

espec. carbon fiber

[west nimbus]

I started an apprenticeship with my company as a composite trimmer/fitter doing an engineering operative course

But lots of companies will offer trainee roles where they will teach you the trade

Do you mind me asking, where are you based? UK?

[tulip silo]

I'm currently in south europe, still high school

I'm planning to do a mechanical engineering degree

[west nimbus]

Ahhh okay, fair enough - I'm not sure what composite manufacures are out there but I'm sure there'll be some!

[tulip silo]

that's ehy I'm really interested in automotive engineering especially for racecars

[west nimbus]

It is a really cool trade, and I've worked on some pretty cool as projects doing so

[flat imp]

Petrol you are so real and I started in that area and wanting to study physics and by the end of my second year I was a nuclear engineering student

[tulip silo]

i will most likely move abroad, because here the production is almost nonexistent

[tulip silo]

thanks man, I'm just super glad to have some people around who are interested in the same fields as i am

[west nimbus]

In the UK midlands, there's a particular hotspot for composite manufacturers 🙂 There's some round the coast more dedicated to well...boats too

Quite a small trade though, not many good operators out there.

[tulip silo]

do you maybe know how things are in Japan? I've reached a quite decent level in the language and plan to take a scholarship in Japan

[west nimbus]

I couldn't say. I imagine there'd be some business there

But I'd say a majority of the top-class composites comes from the UK

That's where a lot of your carbon for motorsport & highly-regarded automotive manufacturers come from

[flat imp]

Ik Toray does composites over in Japan

[tulip silo]

yup, uk seems much more involved in quality motorsport production than I thought

[west nimbus]

Most motorsport stuff comes from here really

Especially stuff like F1

[flat imp]

Yeah no if you want motorsport pertaining to F1 sticking around the UK is good

[tulip silo]

i wonder what are the hypercar development hotspots

[west nimbus]

Especially round Northamptonshire. Motorsport county.

[flat imp]

Otherwise ig Italy but there it's a bit different and you would have to learn Italian

[tulip silo]

like Le Mans prototypes

[west nimbus]

I can speak for a lot of the road-going hypercars

But not things like LeMans

[tulip silo]

that's quite valid as well

so tell what you know

[west nimbus]

Things like Aston Martin Valkyrie, Mercedes AMG-One, Gordon Murray T.50s, basically all McLarens for a few examples are from the UK

For example, I've been quite involved within those projects + more. And that's just at one company

The composites industry is shockingly small for what it is

[flat imp]

I live in fear that Finlay knows someone I know

But that's okay may you never meet amen

[west nimbus]

Oh???

Please, do tell me more.

I'm very confused/curious now

[flat imp]

Naw just a joke about the fact that the composites world is small

[tulip silo]

btw do you work in a company specializing in motorsport carbon fiber production or it fabricates anything that demands strong composites?

[west nimbus]

My company is mostly motorsport/automotive

But we do stuff for art and medical equipment too

[tulip silo]

hmm

what exactly can be considered a composite?

[west nimbus]

Like, sometimes we get work in for parts for MRI-machines lol

[tulip silo]

any combined materials or is it more strict?

[west nimbus]

Technically just something made up of two or more elements

But they need to have two different chemical and physical properties

So like, carbon fibre, fibreglass, kevlar + epoxy resin

By themselves, it's just a bit of plastic or a sheet of cloth. But together, you have an extremely strong material with weirdly good properties

[tulip silo]

yeah, the resin allows for different positions and combinations

[west nimbus]

Though I despise fibreglass. Awful stuff. I prefer working on kevlar.

[tulip silo]

kevlar is used in military armor and spaceship components right

[flat imp]

I will always defend my hazardous fave

[west nimbus]

Yep, got great abrasive properties

For the T.50 for example, it's used in the wheel arches.

[flat imp]

Twas originally used for tires too because vroom car

[tulip silo]

yeah

would like to hang around here more but i gotta sleep very soon

so see yall soon

and good night

[west nimbus]

But composites get very fun when you need it to be visually pleasing too

[west nimbus]

GNGN, if you have any questions at any point, just shoot me a ping 🙂

[tall wyvern]

Kevlar (aramid blend) is sometimes used in bits of the car which scrape the ground, like wing tips

[west nimbus]

Yep 👍 Has very good abrasive properties

You do composites too? Aramid isn't a particuarly well-known thing

(Most people just know the brand name kevlar, as opposed to the actual material)

[tall wyvern]

I’m an aerodynamicist

[west nimbus]

Oh awesome! That in motorsports?

[tall wyvern]

Yep

[sweet tree]

What is the best wing for my Prius

[fair heath]

you need to own a car first

[azure wind]

lmao

[tulip silo]

ngl aerodynamics are goated

[tulip silo]

i wonder if there's a viable legal bypass for the "no movable aerodynamic parts"

[limpid token]

flexi wings are to a sense that

you can't make the checks too hard, otherwise it's actually hard to make the wings pass

and because of carbon fibre being fibres, you can to an extend lay it in very specific pattern to move like you want on track, but pass the tests

[tulip silo]

yeah, it would make sense for wings moved by natural wind force to be allowed (?)

[limpid token]

there are defined test points, in garage there is certain force applied to those and deflection measured, you have to stay under it

[sweet tree]

I'm skipping that step

[tulip silo]

ngl i want to see a formula championship with super loose rules

maybe only rules applied for vehicle size/mass

[tulip silo]

@west nimbus would crushing carbon fibers down to 1x1 fine dust and then impregnating them w/epoxy and treating the mouldings be a good idea or the material would lose its properties?

[tall wyvern]

Carbon fibre is short for carbon fibre reinforced plastic. The only reason it has the properties it does is because of the fibres.

[flat imp]

I mean milled or chopped carbon fiber do have other applications, they still retain some favorable properties depending on the use case, but ground incredibly finely the properties are lost

[proper mantle]

Wouldn't fine particulate carbon actually decrease the structural properties of the resin? I haven't worked with composites in about a decade and I know there's been a lot of advances in the materials science, but back when I was doing a lot of composite and resin work, we had to be pretty careful about dust and particulates because they could cause flaws that would be vulnerable to stress fracturing.

[tulip silo]

yeah, a chopped fiber isn't a fiber anymore

if chopped to powder

it's much easier to use a light metal instead

[flat imp]

So okay the thing about milled and chopped fiber is that they still have some length, hence retaining some properties while having others. It still is a powder but not quite as fine. If you're talking genuinely on a molecular level breaking it down then it's just not carbon fiber anymore

[tulip silo]

absolutely

[flat imp]

If you want I found an interesting enough paper in my "to read" list about uses of milled fiber? Haven't actually read all the way through but I gave it a skim and it's interesting enough

[tulip silo]

the industrial chopped fiber is different from the powder I'm talking about, let alone shredding to molecular level which changed the carbon properties in its roots

[tulip silo]

sure I'd appreciate it

[flat imp]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359835X22004304

[tulip silo]

no way carbon fiber was developed way back in the '50s

[flat imp]

First conceptions of carbon fiber were in the 1800s

[sweet tree]

did they have sf23s?

[tulip silo]

interesting

[flat imp]

They had better they had the Lohner Porsche in 1898

[tulip silo]

got some papers abt that?

for the early cf conceptions

[flat imp]

Oh boy

We love my history of science notes from 2022

Uhhhh I mean if you're curious the guy in question was Joseph Swan, he was experimenting with carbon filaments to make lamps

I'd imagine you can still find some patents

[tulip silo]

alright imma find him

and hopefully his patents

[west nimbus]

Won't hold any of the same properties, the structural aspects come from the weave of the fibre

But we do use small strands of chopped fibres for structural repairs

In a non-visual part, if a hole is put in it for example we can use either adhesive/crop strains to pack into thr material to make a structural fill, or more commonly with epoxy resin

[west nimbus]

Still need to be careful of dust in composites, but IIRC not for that reason

But laminating stage should be clean without dust, to make a good looking part and before bonding for example, parts MUST be thoroughly cleaned otherwise the bond will have no structural integrity.

Last thing you want is your bonnet splitting in half at 200mp/h because some dope didn't clean the part properly before bonding 😂

Painting also, worst thing is when you've made a part, laqured it and then you have a small inclusion of dust or something under your clear coat

[proper mantle]

Yeah, I was working on boats, so very different environmental conditions and stress factors, I guess. It was also repair/restoration work (no carbon fiber, alas!), so we had to use materials that would bond to stuff originally manufactured in the 1970s...

It's also ENTIRELY possible that the dude who trained me just liked to say stuff he thought was correct, without ever actually fact-checking himself.

[west nimbus]

yeah I think your trainer might've been bigging it up a bit

A small amount of dust shouldn't really make any realistic difference since the rein should be infused throughout the entire part.

But for things being bonded to other things? yeah dust is a massive no-no

I've watched my manager literally pull two bonded items apart with his bare hands because they weren't cleaned at all. Shit ain't no joke.

Was that boat work in fibreglass?

[proper mantle]

Yup. Fiberglass. Mostly factory-molded, but occasionally there would be a custom build or a stitch-and-glue.

[west nimbus]

Condolences. I despise working with fibreglass.

[proper mantle]

So. Itchy.

[west nimbus]

Not even that for me really, I'm just so used to it. It's just a horrid material

Try cutting it and it just burns up

I MUCH prefer carbon fibre

[proper mantle]

I learned to work with fiberglass after starting in woodworking, so it was the way the particles just went through my clothing that I noticed most. I wish I'd gotten to play with carbon fiber though. Maybe someday.

[west nimbus]

Oh yeah I wear a hoodie most of the time when trimming carbon, and I take it off later and my arms are grey from the dust 😂 shit gets EVERYWHERE

Though I don't have any real reaction to it anymore, most carbon/fibreglass doesn't irritate my skin anymore...expect gipsy weave. Ugh

[proper mantle]

I mean, I guess at least it's not green? One of my friends used to work as a lab tech for a local university's microbiology department. He accidentally dumped an entire container of malachite green without thinking about it, and the particulates dyed his entire face (except for the area covered by his goggles and respirator) a bright blue-green.

Stayed for days.

[west nimbus]

Oh wow, that's awful 😂

But like....cool at the same time

[proper mantle]

His nickname has been Bruce Banner ever since, of course.

[west nimbus]

😂 brilliant

I really do like that one

[proper mantle]

Even worse, one of the professors used a photo of him as part of their lab safety lecture for YEARS.

[west nimbus]

I would be so proud of that, personally!

[proper mantle]

I dunno...being the safety screw-up? Granted, it's nice to be the safety screw-up who survives with life and limbs intact.

[west nimbus]

Yeah now you put it like that, hm

But a mean ass nickname, regardless

[proper mantle]

He definitely doesn't mind the nickname.

[west nimbus]

I'd rather that than some of my coworkers nicknames...by far

[flat imp]

My welding nickname is so offensive I think I cannot post it on here

[west nimbus]

Oh I wanna know

[flat imp]

I would get murked by the laws of this server

[west nimbus]

😂 fairs

I won't share context, but a nickname for me is "finbread"

[flat imp]

Lmfao

[west nimbus]

We have this weird guy whos nickname is "trimmy Savile"

[proper mantle]

Yes, well. I was "Power Puff" in one shop, because I'm really short, and that particular TV show was popular at the time.

[west nimbus]

We have this guy nobody likes called drillbit...because he's a small boring tool

[flat imp]

Mine derives from the word gasket.... context is uh. Not the obvious

[west nimbus]

Detective decibel, because he complains about people being too loud

[proper mantle]

I've known a drillbit or two in my working life, for sure.

[west nimbus]

The Mexican...because he's not English. He's from Portugal but drillbit was whinging about him and dubbed him "Hombre" so that stuck

[flat imp]

"The Mexican" I'm crying lmfao

Mine is.... somehow worse and also not as bad

[west nimbus]

"FatMatt", because he's called Matt...and he's not skinny

[west nimbus]

Oh?

[flat imp]

Well it's got a slur in it but at least it's not THAT impersonal 😭

[west nimbus]

We have twinkletoes because one of his hobbies is dancing lol

[flat imp]

Oh we have a twinkletoes too.... but that's cause he's a twink

[west nimbus]

Well yes that's a secondary reason but I didn't want to say it 😭

We have Hodor...because he's a 6'9" beast who looks like Hodor

The [retracted slur]

We used to have YumYum, who always got YumYums from Greggs

And he was a moron

So "Dumdum want yumyum"

[amber kraken]

Hang on. Are those Red Bull inspired pushrods on the teased RB car?

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1754942611528241441

Craig Scarborough (@ScarbsTech) on X

VSCARB (the Faenza team) teasers ...

Twitter · Feb 6, 2024, 6:58 PM

[silent rose]

what happened to "we're moving away from being the B-team"

[crimson granite]

no

they’re moving away from being a junior team

and towards a sister team

they’re always gonna be a B team

[tall wyvern]

It literally is red bull’s suspension, so yes

[loud flax]

any ideas fot this guys?

[fair heath]

Aggresive swimming pool

Front suspension redesign aswell

And pushed back cockpit it seems

[craggy moon]

the nose is super long

oml

changed the front wing profile as well

same with the beam wing

do you think that the longer nose has anything to do with the new front suspension? like the change in airflow from the suspension arms and the start of the floor

if that makes any sense

[fair heath]

guys

something has been spotted

similar to the ferrari S-duct

[craggy moon]

Oh yeah

I thought it looked weird

[silent rose]

holy moly the divot is huge

[limpid token]

its a different camera lens, look at how the tires are different

[fair heath]

would this be cooling only? @tall wyvern

or can it be exploited as downforce aswell

[silent rose]

good eye

[limpid token]

i don't see it, especially on the other shots that show that area clearly

or it might be that blue/pink cars are different

I see it on this one

[fair heath]

blue one i believe is the actual car

[limpid token]

I see

[merry delta]

a bit of a clearer image

[fair heath]

interesting

i would assume its not for cooling

as they have ducts already

[sharp sundial]

I can’t remember what that s-duct was for but yeah the cooling was only to fulfil certain requirements

[left geode]

It's for reducing turbulent air,reducing drag as a effect

[limpid token]

if it's true S duct, they can't use it for cooling because of its legality that doesn't allow holes in it iirc

[craggy moon]

i did not expect alpine to make an s duct lmao

and do we see an exaust point for the duct? it could just bee more area for cooling

[limpid token]

as someone already mentioned, it might be just scooping up turbulent air from the cameras/suspension that stuck to the side and making the sidepod flow cleaner

[craggy moon]

yeah

[tall wyvern]

Not quite, if that’s the function, and nobody outside of Ferrari can know for certain, it’s not for ‘turbulent air’ in the layman’s sense but for ingesting the boundary layer alongside the nose and front part of the chassis

[limpid token]

but my point was that from what i can see, ferrari is using the chassis legality to have a passthrough while alpine seems to just have L shape inlet, they might be using it for the same reason or for a completely different one

[limpid token]

Apparently 2024 Ferrari in Wind tunnel

[median berry]

Not half of it being carbon fibre..

[craggy moon]

sure is an f1 car

[limpid token]

its also 60% scale

as limited by the rules of windtunnel testing

[tulip silo]

no livery

[short ether]

Yeah but Ferrari would mostly have red on their car since it’s like the main colour of the brand

[craggy moon]

why would they spend money painting a model that no one would see?

there is no reason to paint a car that isnt public

[cinder imp]

is this real?

[limpid token]

from comments, its from some Italian documentary about Ferrari/F1, so its been approved by Ferrari and its super early 2024/23 spec model

so it should be real

[tall wyvern]

It’s not carbon fibre it’s plastic

It’s from this https://youtu.be/IvtS1o_mEKk

[limpid token]

[fair heath]

guys

have you seen the cooling outlets on the supposed early ferrari model

@tall wyvern

[limpid token]

this?

[ancient scaffold]

are they the openings around the exhaust area

[ancient scaffold]

on this pic

[fair heath]

Yes

[fair heath]

Ye

[ancient scaffold]

why is this a big deal?

[fair heath]

Well

Its certainly a lot different

[civic fern]

I think its pure cooling. 1) they need more air but 2) don’t want to extend the sidepod horizontally downwards because that reduces the undercut for aero

[amber kraken]

https://twitter.com/FDataAnalysis/status/1757054365678920092

Formula Data Analysis (@FDataAnalysis) on X

The new @AstonMartinF1 features a significant change: a switch from pull-rod to push-rod rear suspension!💡

Dan Fallows: “We inherited the new Mercedes push-rod suspension” (to @formu1a__uno)

He added that the team focused on improving the car’s aero efficiency (less drag)
#F1

Twitter · Feb 12, 2024, 2:49 PM

[graceful dew]

https://twitter.com/dr_obbs/status/1757196263139737684?t=JJ2KeuhPZlVEXAO7lCoeow&s=19

Dr Obbs (@dr_obbs) on X

@FDataAnalysis @AstonMartinF1 @alo_oficial AMR couldn’t make the double floor work in 2022 with their first car. This is creeping back towards a double floor again. Have they figured it out now? Wait and see. 😎

Twitter · Feb 13, 2024, 12:13 AM

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1757158854008181134?t=2f7VwMs30zpx4V6EM3r13Q&s=19

Craig Scarborough (@ScarbsTech) on X

Twitter · Feb 12, 2024, 9:44 PM

[limpid token]

Ferrari is keeping their S-duct from last year, even with the change to downwashing sidepods

and they moved the SIS into the floor

[tulip silo]

when a formula suffers damage, is it changed or the damaged parts only?

[sweet tree]

wdym changed?

It depends on how bad the damage is

[tulip silo]

changed as in switched to another vehicle from the garage

[tulip silo]

lets say critical damage to engine, meaning bad

[sweet tree]

I guess they would just change the engine

[sweet tree]

They only have 2 cars

[limpid token]

they can only have fueltank+chassis ready, the rest have to be built after a crash in quali

[tulip silo]

i see

well production is quite costly so it makes sense

[limpid token]

but they want to have an option to have a car more build up than that this year due to the sprint->quali timeline

[onyx nova]

Is the redbull suspension pull rod at the front and push rod at the back?

[tulip silo]

hmm

could somebody explain me push/pull rod suspension system

[limpid token]

you have the upper and lower wishbones that are holding up the wheel, but that's not enough, you need a diagonal strut for the springs/dampers and there are two ways to do it

(I know this one is mirrored to the other pic , but this is the best looking one)

in the red example, if the wheel needs to go up, the diagonal one gets pulled, pullrod

in the blue example, it gets pushed, pushrod

[tulip silo]

ohh i think i get it now

[amber kraken]

Sorry. Mercedes style channels?

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1757424096797728926

Craig Scarborough (@ScarbsTech) on X

@RBR_Daily @Tora49 #RB20 Thoughts

Twitter · Feb 13, 2024, 3:18 PM

[craggy moon]

That is quite the ridge above the side pod

[quasi oyster]

Is the sidepod inlet actually high or is it below and more of a zero sidepod thing?

It's hard to tell cuz from that diagram it looks high but in the pics it looks low

[flint wraith]

Can someone clarify

[limpid token]

its from this pic, your guess is as good as mine

@flint wraith

[quasi oyster]

Yeah just wondering if the sidepod inlet is facing up or down

Eh we can wait a day to find out

[onyx nova]

its bad

[opaque arch]

the front wing elements look argressive

[quasi oyster]

The sidepod inlet reminds of an older McLaren

I forget which one

[flint yoke]

Why do most 2024 liveries have the frontmost wing not attached to the front part of the body. And I also think they are angled differently. Does it have anything to do with the rule changes or does it confer any aerodynamic advantage. I haven't seen this last year

[tall wyvern]

Yes and yes

Car looks amazing

[limpid token]

it was very much the case last year

[flint yoke]

Oh, okay
But what is the reason for doing so? And I feel that the front blade is angled backwards. Doesn't it actually reduce the downforce?
I am kinda new to F1 and this might sound silly

Was it so that it would be easier to place the jack?

[limpid token]

you simply remove part of the nose for a better flow into the venturis

the second thing would probably be the same thing, better and more air for the venturis, since if you can't have all the air go up after the front wing, that's why some of the teams have them higher than minimum

McLaren seems to have Merc style 'overbite'

[flint yoke]

Oh okay
Just looked up the physics behind venturis. It is amazing

[limpid token]

to put it simply, you might want to sacrifice a bit of efficiency in your front wing, but you way more than gain it with your floor

[lone wing]

i bet it's gonna be a weak point

[flint wraith]

Can someone elaborate on the interest on the w 15s front wing?
I don't get it

[dapper monolith]

SF24 - Push, Pull
W15 - Push, Push
RB19 - Pull, Push

[iron shale]

I found this

The SF-24 looks very plain imo

[flint wraith]

thank you

[amber kraken]

Is that whining sound the Turbocharger or something?

https://twitter.com/F1GuyDan/status/1757849400049631561

Daniel Valente 🏎️ (@F1GuyDan) on X

The best footage so far of Max Verstappen driving the RB20 at Silverstone. It certainly sounds like a rocket ship too.

(via: Lukuss on Youtube)

Twitter · Feb 14, 2024, 7:28 PM

[iron shale]

different fins tested today in Fiorano

Also I noticed the part that connects the tip of the nose to the lowest element of the front wing that we saw in the renders wasn't present in the real car

[sharp sundial]

It should be noted that sometimes outright volume isn’t worth the tradeoffs as evidenced by aston martin abandoning the high nose concept for the 2023 season

[iron shale]

https://f1ingenerale.com/f1-esclusiva-ferrari-filming-day-subito-grosse-novita-sulla-sf-24-a-fiorano-foto-cofano-motore-quando-aggiornamenti-aerodinamica/

[craggy moon]

watching this made me very happy

[amber kraken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3aDtUVxUuY&ab_channel=THERACE

[limpid token]

Normal wing (from early 2023 season Redbull) has 4 elements, the limitations that are important are limits on distance between the elements (how far apart they can be) and the curvature (so its smooth and not super crazy)

Merc wing from their launch spec, the weird part they did that's important is the size of the element 4, where it goes to almost 0 close to the nose, in theory it would give them less dense air for the tire to punch through and more air for the sidepods (sealing floor and using beamwing)

its most probably legal

[limpid token]

its known as 'legality wire' and it was recently used on a floor by Alpha Tauri

[final dust]

Did my explanation got deleted?

[violet smelt]

Please don't post content from news aggregators, they are unreliable and steal content from the journalists and organisations that create the original content.

[final dust]

Ah okay, sorry

[coral glade]

https://fxtwitter.com/LNFOURS/status/1757923138212421937?t=p1uM1AWsWAVqpQvwb5gcmA&s=19

what I believe this noise means is that it's channeling a lot of air into tight spaces

correct me if I'm wrong

[limpid token]

its a drone

[coral glade]

but newey cooked cause why tf does it s

oh

LOL thank god

how do you know

[limpid token]

just watch drone video and that sound is exactly what you hear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=See1PJCPW4k

they just have a bigger one

[crimson granite]

^^

these shakedowns have a drone filming the car

[coral glade]

ok

[limpid token]

contrast + brightness, nothing else

looks like they are going with the vertical one

[edgy anchor]

New Red Bull sidepods look sick

[limpid token]

they are understandably hiding the floor

[tulip silo]

what's on the floor

[limpid token]

just something to hide the real one

[violet smelt]

https://fxtwitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1758246490869207476

[tall wyvern]

The floor edge is one of the most performance sensitive areas on the whole car

Probably second only to the front floor body

[blazing saffron]

bruh it somehow sounds like an F1 car that also has an FE car's engine inside it 💀

jfc

[coral glade]

fr

[blazing saffron]

wtf have RB been cooking

[coral glade]

thankfully it's a drone

dw

[blazing saffron]

like my expectations were already high but holy fuck

[coral glade]

otherwise it'd be 24/24

[blazing saffron]

it better not be

[coral glade]

I do think it isn't a drone

cause like

the sound matches the acceleration and the distance too perfectly

and it's higher pitched than any drone sound I've heard

also would they even allow drones near silverstone?

[blazing saffron]

why would it be a drone

[coral glade]

yeah

[coral glade]

this but

[blazing saffron]

yeah it does sound like it's part of the car but at the same time it's really loud

[coral glade]

idk

it's so loud, exactly

[blazing saffron]

yeah idk either

[coral glade]

im very curious for testing

[blazing saffron]

how could the car make a sound like this in addition to the engine noise

[coral glade]

haven't been this hyped for f1...ever

[blazing saffron]

if that's the case

[coral glade]

I think its

[blazing saffron]

yeah same

[coral glade]

hold on

[coral glade]

.

some airflow something

too complex for me but

what else could it be

1 week, 1 week

[blazing saffron]

yeah

in any case we'll find out in testing

[coral glade]

mhm

[limpid token]

https://rb20-model-viewer.glitch.me/

from reddit

[cinder imp]

this is better picture

[deft burrow]

slow down the video frame by frame and look just a few feet above the spray of the car. You see those 3 little dots? That's for sure a drone. If I had to take a guess as to why it doesn't sound like any you've heard, it's probably because it's of the range of custom drones Red Bull has made/got made for them.

[tall wyvern]

I saw it in person and it didn’t sound like that

[limpid token]

nice!

[tulip silo]

hmm would 2 fuel injectors have an advantage over 1 injector, if one has a slight delay so fast intervals could be pulled off during high revs

2 inj per cylinder

[coral glade]

good spot, thanks

[craggy moon]

the inlet looks so low, and small

[cinder imp]

That’s awesome

[zinc bison]

The piece that connects the Nose to the 4th front wing element almost looks fake/detachable

could it have been bait like the other tactics RB have used?

[rich gust]

is it me or are the 2024 cars going for a more mid 2000s design for the nosecone/front wing area

[rich gust]

compared to their 2023 counterpart & you'll see what I'm talking about
the ----\ _ /---- shape

[flint wraith]

yeah had the same doubt

[zealous dagger]

ye, same for me. It doesn't look real, but let's wait tests

[zealous dagger]

sidepod and s-duct

[limpid token]

yea, with RB's own model and pics this seems to be like the obvious solution

we'll see in 3 days

[zinc bison]

so 2 inlets in an L shape?

[warped moon]

Vertical inlet. And the horizontal one is the radiator cooling

[zealous dagger]

i think also the vertical inlet is for the radiator cooling'

only the orizontal inlet can't cool the radiator

[warped moon]

May be. I’ve been reading all articles about it in English and English is not my first language

[zealous dagger]

and then when they introduce the zero sidepods concept in Japan, they will already have the vertical inlet available

[zealous dagger]

same lol

but i can understand englinsh

and i think i can speak it pretty well

[abstract pawn]

I do not think the zeropod is happening

[zealous dagger]

i mean

[abstract pawn]

First of all because the Motorsport.com article is pretty confusing because in one part it says they "will" introduced it and in the next it says "could"

[zealous dagger]

every important source say it

[zealous dagger]

yes no one can be sure

but everything takes us to that

[abstract pawn]

Red Bull still also need the full width of the sidepod for their radiators - Mercedes had to redesign their entire chassis for that which is partly why their cockpit was so far forward

They also need the full width of the sidepod for the sips since that is further back than on the previous Mercedes for example

[abstract pawn]

Mercedes had to move their radiators far inboard to the point where they had to make the fuel tank skinny and elongated

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/876046265111167016/1208350045519347733/image.png?ex=65e2f6ac&is=65d081ac&hm=0b5ae3d47ef99db2c2a63ced8ab2d7c7f7cb175b76771c60561532825646a2b0&

[zealous dagger]

mhhhhh

[abstract pawn]

They will most likely just make the first part of the sidepod a zeropod like it was in the reveal and then after the sips it will just be a normal sidepod

The vertical inlet seen in the launch is also unlikely to be able to handle all the cooling

[zealous dagger]

yes but if you can manage the zerosidepod concept well (as newey could easily do) it would be to the advantage of the team itself. Not having sidepods allows you to have very little aerodynamic resistance, and, in the case of good management of the air flows at the rear it would be a mega w

[abstract pawn]

Red Bull already tried the zerpod before 2022 but found no advantage to it compared to a normal sidepod

The biggest problem Mercedes had was taking care of the turbulent air that was getting into the beamwing

[zealous dagger]

the concept of the w13 and then the w14 wasn't wrong, just that the engineers couldn't handle it

[abstract pawn]

Because they could not control it with a sidepod

[zealous dagger]

right

[abstract pawn]

And that will remain an inherent problem with not having a sidepod

[zealous dagger]

ye but u can add some things that can control the flow

idk

we'll see

[abstract pawn]

It is more likely that it will just be this with a normal horizontal inlet and then the vertical inlet like we saw on the reveal

The vertical inlet would not be anything new anyway it was already on the SF-23 last year

[zealous dagger]

what I was saying is that that horizontal inlet is too narrow to be able to cool all the radiators, for this reason, the vertical inlet will help it cool the radiators and the power unit. It was probably the best choice, in order to increase the undercut under the sidepods

[zealous dagger]

it is on the sf24 too

am i wrong?

[abstract pawn]

Well the horizontal inlet on the Red Bull we have seen so far is not too different size-wise compared to what they ran for the majority of last year just that the bottom lip has been flipped

[abstract pawn]

I have not been able to see it but I will take your word for it because I cannot say I have exactly looked for it either

[zealous dagger]

you're right, in fact in my opinion the rendering is deceiving, it will be a little narrower and with a higher tray

[zealous dagger]

yeye the s-duct is also on the SF-24

Wait

[abstract pawn]

Well yes all renders will be deceiving it is more a question of how deceiving

We will see in a couple days

[zealous dagger]

https://gyazo.com/1cbe1d17b3c7eff98372d5d8d658b767

red arrow

can u see it??

here u can see it better

@abstract pawn

[abstract pawn]

Oh yeah I see it thanks

[zealous dagger]

i am going to sleep now eheheh

[tulip silo]

could somebody experienced in aerodynamics reccomend me some works i can read and get familiar with body elements of a formula?

mainly outer such as wings, pods, intake elements...

[limpid token]

Newey's book

[zealous dagger]

too hard if you don't know anything

just watch some videos on youtube

and then if u want , u can get that book

[tiny pecan]

He doesnt upload anymore but chain bear is good

On yt

[limpid token]

If you need basics, just binge watch Chainbear, yea

[tulip silo]

I'll check him out

[abstract pawn]

https://fixupx.com/MarkLaneF1/status/1759934266408870105?s=20

[zealous dagger]

"Mercedes, The front wing is legal: Confirmation also obtained from the FIA"
Source: Formu1a.uno

nah man

that's just crazy'

that's illegal

[sweet tree]

ok

[abstract pawn]

It is the same thing teams did with their floors last year

Certainly not how the regulations were meant to be but it is legal

[edgy anchor]

Wait what would be illegal?

[left geode]

Mercedes's front wing from the W15

[warped moon]

Is it one piece or two pieces? How flexible it is?

[edgy anchor]

Oh with the carbon spindle link?

[sweet tree]

good shot

[tall wyvern]

It’s one piece. That’s literally why it exists.

[sweet tree]

also hi SkippY

havent seen u in a while

[prime mortar]

funish fact: f1 teams can use superchargers under the current regs, just none of them chose so. it would be cool to see a team try a supercharger in the future

[limpid token]

its confirmed, two intakes

[flint wraith]

The engine cover ducts have an entrance at the front just next to the pilot's head and above the headrest.

[Albert Fabrega]

[abstract pawn]

I was right

I am never going to let that one go

[limpid token]

Scarbs was also right

[zealous dagger]

I was

I sent that image

Lol

We both

[zealous dagger]

difference in telemetry between Max's fastest lap (Medium tyre) and Charles' fastest lap (Medium tyre).
We must obviously remember that max lapped all day and did the lap during the afternoon, when the track conditions were much better

[zealous dagger]

As u can see even if leclerc has done his lap in the morning, in the first sector he was doing better

Let’s see tomorrow

[foggy wraith]

since the start and finish line are separate, which line starts a lap time and ends it for a qualifying lap?

[prime mortar]

the same timing line, its about the same as the start of the pit wall

at least for bahrain

in austrailia its the same as the start finish line

in monaco its right before the finish line

in canada its about the same as the start finish line

in cota its right after the final corner like 30ft after the drs line

in abu dhabi its right before the finish line

so there are start, finish, and timing lines. ex. after a safety car you can only overtake after the timing line, not the start or finish line

[zealous dagger]

What a long run for Ferrari!!

Want the telemetry?

I’ll send you if u want

[limpid token]

yes please

[limpid token]

the timing line and the grid are two independent things

[tulip silo]

the RB airbox looks pretty interesting, anybody got more about its design?

[zealous dagger]

ok, i'll send you soon

you want the telemetry for the fastest lap or for the long run

[limpid token]

long runs would be nicer if possible

[zealous dagger]

ye ye

gimme some mins

[zealous dagger]

okay

here we are

Here is the telemetry:

Today I will compare the long run simulations of SAINZ and NORRIS, the two that have created the most "hype" today.
Sainz did a real race simulation, introducing many laps complete with pit stops.
The Ferrari driver's long run immediately showed itself to be excellent, with constant race pace and excellent times, especially with the white tyre.
Norris also recorded excellent long run times, but did not carry out a real simulation like SAINZ.

As you can see, Sainz's race pace simulation lasted longer and was more constant with lower times.

from the telemetries, I only took the times of the race pace simulations, obviously the laps that the two drivers did during the session were many more

analyzing the telemetry we can immediately notice how the McLaren confirms itself as an excellent car and seeing the on-boards as a very balanced car.
We can say the same about Ferrari.
Excellent race pace simulation, unexpected.
Excellent times with both the C2 and the C1, with constant times and little degradation.
From the on-board data we can see how the Ferrari is a super balanced car when entering corners and when cornering
At the exit we can see how, in some parts of the circuit, the rear tends to lose, but don't worry, this can be adjusted with the setup.

[silk knot]

no way it would ever happen today, too much parasitic loss

[tight patio]

English??

[zealous dagger]

?

hello dat

[tight patio]

Uhm, noob language

[zealous dagger]

did i do some errors?

[tight patio]

I don’t understand

[zealous dagger]

oh

translate it

[tight patio]

2

C2

[zealous dagger]

are u english?

[tight patio]

C

C1

[tight patio]

Yes

Very new terms

What fry’s my brain

[zealous dagger]

oh so is my bad

for c2 and c1 i mean hard and medium tyre

[tight patio]

Oh

That’s makes more sense

[limpid token]

@zealous dagger how was the total racetime compared to the actual GP from last year

you've cut out the datapoints so i cant tell

[neon quiver]

Anybody knows where I can access the entire broadcast for todays testing session (searching for a specific clip) ?

[zealous dagger]

i have to check

[zealous dagger]

ye 'cause i just wanted to send you long runs

if u want i can send u more datas

and i explained some things

[zealous dagger]

but from the other datas of today's session, u can't see nothing

but if u want

i mean nothing important

Redbull datas won’t say anything to you

Today with perez

[zealous dagger]

@limpid token

[abstract pawn]

https://x.com/F1Merc44/status/1760951932737229074?s=20
https://fixupx.com/F1Merc44/status/1760966611236766026?s=20

- (@F1Merc44) on X

It might just be the angles, and I’m trying to get some good pictures of it, but I think Mercedes overnight have changed the position of the rear leg of the upper wishbone arrangement on the front suspension.

Twitter · Feb 23, 2024, 8:57 AM

[zealous dagger]

Wow

What a Ferrari

[zealous dagger]

want telemetry of long runs?

[rich gust]

I just wana know how bad Ferrari's degradation is

I read that Red Bull had very little, almost none when they were doing long runs

[zealous dagger]

ok i'll explain with telemetry

just wait a few mins

As you can see this is the long run telemetry of VER and LEC.
As you can see from this shot it seems that Leclerc always shot at slower times than VERSTAPPEN, even if this wasn't the case.
However, Ferrari showed excellent race pace, very little degradation, almost at Red Bull level.
However, if we saw some degradation in Ferrari's stints it was because Ferrari's work was carried out in a different way than RB's.
From what we can learn so far, Ferrari tried to always push the tire to the maximum during Leclerc's laps, to see how it behaved when stressed.
They received positive results, although a certain difficulty was encountered with the C2 tire, a difficulty that VERSTAPPEN also demonstrated.
In any case the RB is the car to beat, but I think this year we will see some good ones between Redbull and Ferrari

if we zoom we can see better the long runs

As you can see, with the tyre C3, ferrari has some problems

but nothing important, that's fixable

P.S. : We also have to take into account gasoline loads, which will remain unknown

[rich gust]

in the first image which tyre was used

[zealous dagger]

c1 and c2

as you can see by the color of the telemetry

[rich gust]

ohh

c1 for white & c2 for orange?

[zealous dagger]

yes C1 is the hard one and C2 is the medium one

and then C3;C4;C5 are the soft ones

[rich gust]

I meant the dots on the graph

[zealous dagger]

ye

[zealous dagger]

yes

[rich gust]

some days I just wish pirelli just stuck with the supersoft-soft-medium-hards naming scheme

[zealous dagger]

yes, interesting

but it won't work

[rich gust]

hang on I thought Charles set todays fastest lap on C5?

[zealous dagger]

no, that was en error

[abstract pawn]

?

[zealous dagger]

you'll see

[abstract pawn]

I’ll see what

[zealous dagger]

that it won't change the car

this mercedes sucks

like all the previous cars

i mean w13, w14

[abstract pawn]

Ok James Allison

[crimson granite]

LMFAO

[cursive ibex]

Newey cooked

[tall wyvern]

Do you even know what this is?

[zealous dagger]

bro

💀

i was ironic

[tall wyvern]

So you don’t know what ironic means either lol

[zealous dagger]

he can literally see trought the air😭

[tall wyvern]

The standard of this channel jesus

[zealous dagger]

you are actually talking with yourself

[tall wyvern]

Inane comments like ‘it won’t work though’, please at least try. What won’t work? What is this?

[rich gust]

can u 2 just chill

[deft burrow]

It's been taken care of.

[limpid token]

how the fuck does that airflow go up to that intake

actual newey magic

its like you have a leaf blower hidden in the suspension to do it

[stray wraith]

What would be the potential advantage or reason for this?

[rich gust]

there are openings beside the headrest presumably to recoup the lack of airflow to the sidepods

[limpid token]

its the reverse

unless i am seeing it wrong

it seems like there is a strong ish flow straight towards the cooling inlet

[ashen venture]

The teams really don't want what happened in qatar last year to happen again

[silent heron]

Looks like it comes from the shape of the suspension and the suspension attachment

[silent heron]

I dont agree

First of all it looks like the two options can affect the direction of flow, and also something at mechanical level

I think it’s a pretty interesting solution. The lower one, seems to allow for flow to be more direct towards the cooling intake, maybe for tracks like Mexico? The other one I don’t know, looks like it’s favouring flow to the lower side pod, maybe trying to create a high pressure area at the start of the sidepod

[silent heron]

Damn I didn’t notice that

[edgy anchor]

what happened?

[ashen venture]

They've installed these "vents" that blow cool air into the cockpit

Or as the FIA calls it a cooling scoop

You can have either two or one scoop

[ashen venture]

Redbull have two

[ashen venture]

Yeah after what happened in Qatar last season

FIA said "... we need to do something about this."

[edgy anchor]

Okay but what happened in Qatar

Was it just hot?

They had Nose vents anyway previously what the teams take em away?

[ashen venture]

Not in 2023

[limpid token]

they had nose vents, but now they are allowed the top scoop

[limpid token]

super hot and super humid

[edgy anchor]

Oh

[warped moon]

Pilots vommitted, had to retire of the race or were basically on the verge of fainting after the race.

[civic fern]

airflow to sidepod area

[tall wyvern]

This is (possibly counterintuitively) what happens, same with all the cars. The upwash from the front wing is strong, and the lip is literally a lifting body (a wing), which means it induces an up wash to the leading edge (the top of the lip)

Aston Martin for example

Other thing is that this is obviously only the surface flow, and the flow off the body can be (and is) very different

[zinc bison]

What rule changes have actually come this season? I remember for 2023 the floor edge was raised 15mm but I don't remember any changes for this year?

except the driver cooling snorkels

[left geode]

The only noticible change is that teams are allowed to install a scoop in their cars for the intention of cooling the driver and cockpit area, due to the Qatar race last season

[zinc bison]

yeah lol

so how tf do any teams expect to catch Red Bull

[left geode]

Well,aside that there's also the factor that teams are not allowed to do any wind tunnel tests or CFD for the 2026 car,until 1st January 2025

[zinc bison]

Yeah but that doesnt stop Newey or Allison from drawing some nice plans and technical diagrams up

[left geode]

Technically when the regulations are stable and there's little to none changes,it's much easier for teams to actually continue improving their package and find more gains rather than having to completely overhaul their car season by season just to make it legal by the regulations

[zinc bison]

Yeah but that doesn't stop them from doing it

take the 2013 McLaren

[left geode]

Yeah,i know the story

That the MP4-27 was already at the peak of their development,they decided to make a whole new car and made the mess of a mistake choosing to use the front pullrod suspension (which was the same mistake Ferrari did with the F2012)

It's one of the reasons that you as a team,should always go for the evolution rather than the revolution of a car,unless it's big regulation change

Or unless you're Adrian Newey

[proud anvil]

Guys, does someone know how a computer from an F1 team estimates a lap time? I personally don't know how it works but I couldn't find anything online so if anybody knows that would be great.

[warped moon]

Transponders on F1 cars allow them to be tracked to within a ten thousandth of a second by transmitting radio waves. Formula One transponders are vital to keeping the race as accurate as possible, with the cars moving at such high speed, no other timing system is up to the task of tracking them.

Timing loops are set about a centimetre into the F1 track, built out of lengths of wire that run across the width of the track and back, and encased in silicone for protection. They’re spaced out every 150 to 200 metres along the track, and every time a car passes over it registers with the car’s transponder, transmitting a unique ID to a decoder that logs the time of day, giving an accurate picture of where the car is any point along the track and at what time.

Every Formula One transponder transmits on a different frequency so there’s no interference. All this information is fed back to the broadcast centre, where the technical teams can review it.

That plus statistics on race pace and traffic sims will probably do the job.

[left geode]

Ground effect finally doing it's intended effect,still they won't be fast in slow speed corners

[tall wyvern]

You input a tonne of variables to the code like downforce vs rideheight (front and rear), spring stiffnesses etc etc and then the code calculates lap times. If you google lap sim code you will find examples.

[proud anvil]

I already knew that, thanks, just wanted to make sure it doesn't go any further, that's a great explanation on how lap times in general work

[proud anvil]

Yeah, most probably

[proud anvil]

Ooh that's great to hear, thank you

[prime mortar]

one of the best examples to me was the 2014 RB. Amazing chassis but terrible engine. Eventually they had to "revolutionize" the chassisfor 2015 bc of the engine which caused issues with everything. Then for 16 they figured out what direction they wanted to go in.

The RB in the early turbo hybrid era had a really good chassis but the engine sucked badly. Merc had a okay chassic but a great engine.

[civic fern]

???

Why on earth would you need to revolutionize the chassis because of the engine?

[prime mortar]

newey said he had to find new ways to make the car faster because some design cues could only work with a car within the performance window they expected

Newey also says in his book that renualt refused to conform to designs he requested that would have made the car faster

[left geode]

What's worse is that at the time,Ferrari wasn't also doing magic with their engine like they would do later and Mercedes already had three teams being supplied with their engine

[prime mortar]

a great example of how bad the other engines were. williams and force india were podium contenders. williams had a very basic aero and body kit but since they had a merc engine. they got podiums

at one point lotus was also a merc customer

bring back party mode

[limpid token]

I thought they fucked up the 2015 car

and only unfucked it for 2016

[prime mortar]

thats what i said

[prime mortar]

end of this message

[left geode]

Actually,the problem with the RB11 was that the Renault engine was such a downgrade with the reliability at the same time that Ferrari actually improved their engine

There's comments which say the RB11 chassis was actually on par with the Mercedes

[prime mortar]

i do think that is a fact but some people have said that the 2014 RB had a great driving chassis and to try to fix the renualt issues they took a path that wasnt correct.

in an desperate attempt to match mercs pace

[coral glade]

https://youtu.be/9pEqyr_uT-k?si=Pzqa-0LOpAZfiTdC

so it WAS a drone

[limpid token]

i wonder why williams' flow wiz doesnt show it, it basically looks like what i would think it should

[tall wyvern]

They’ve just applied the paint differently that’s all

[iron shale]

idk if I should send it here but would this ever work in real life or even be legal in the 1st place

its a sidepod concept I made because I was bored where the air intake also works as sort of like a tunnel that lets the air out in the back

I dont understand much of that this is mostly creativity so this could be extremely innacurate

[sweet tree]

I reckon this sidepod would put P5 on the grid

[craggy moon]

congrats, you have made the rb18 sidepod

[iron shale]

the inlet is also a tunnel that ends at the back of the sidepod

making the air go through the sidepod

[tulip silo]

but the inlet provides air to the engine right?

so you'd lose some efficiency

btw ramjets (kinda) do that too

[craggy moon]

can we make make the sidepod a jet?

air coming in through a nozzle and through a turbine?

[tulip silo]

if FIA allows it, why not?

[edgy anchor]

It'd go in #creative I thunk

[amber kraken]

Guess we'll have to find out within a couple of days if Mercedes finally cracked it or they'll have a McLaren 2004 moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3PH6oCPLP4&ab_channel=THERACE

[sharp sundial]

Compression would be miserable lmao

Most bladeless engines don’t really work well at subsonic or transonic speeds

[solid raft]

only time will tell

but im sure that it cant be too good

why would lewis leave the team he was so loyal to?

they obv werent listening to him so the car this year we shouldnt expect too much imo

[tall wyvern]

Is he an aerodynamicist? Or a vehicle dynamics engineer?

[limpid token]

we just need another telemetry leak from him

[solid raft]

yeah but engineers should still try to listen to drivers

they have a somewhat knowledge

and they are the ones driving it

[sharp sundial]

A driver can identify problems, but they don’t know how to fix them. If it’s difficult to fix then it’s difficult to fix

[flat imp]

He could 100% say what he doesn’t like about the experience of driving that car, and ofc he would be within his rights to say “look our car looks very different to everyone else’s, maybe that’s a sign our concept isn’t the move given our results” but ultimately like. You can see teams have great success with a radical concept as well.

[tulip silo]

drivers can identify problems with their feel, besides they have to know at least the basics of their car functions

[tall wyvern]

‘Basics of their car functions’ means nothing,

[tulip silo]

are you really going to drive a car competitively without at least knowing how its contents work?

that's what it means

[flat imp]

Even if they have a basic mechanical understanding that doesn’t mean they’re qualified to make decisions about overall vehicle concept

[tulip silo]

they shouldn't, but the driver's feedback should be valid enough

[solid raft]

exactly

[left geode]

As if the current Mercedes engine is unrealible like the V10s McLaren had back in the late V10 era

[tall wyvern]

They have no clue how it works

A driver’s role in development goes no further than confirming the data from the car

[tulip silo]

the driver can give some simple feedback, like steering controls, acceleration, suspension

now how much that feedback is going to affect the engineering process, that's up to engineers

[dusty herald]

Is there any database or place I can look at all the pitstop times for every car?

[tall wyvern]

In other words nothing useful

[tulip silo]

if the car understeers or oversteers (for example) I wouldn't think such feedback isn't useful

some critical components are important for the driver's feedback

best testing is in practice

[zenith pumice]

I think this message is relevant to the conversation

the driver can find issues, the driver cannot themselves offer solutions to aerodynamic problems or engineering problems in any meaningful capacity. that's what engineers are for

[tulip silo]

yes exactly. the driver seeks issues, the engineers solve issues

[tall wyvern]

The driver can say how it feels, but that’s not the same thing as seeking issues

[tulip silo]

but why doesn't the driver have the ability to provide feedback?

[tall wyvern]

They do, but it only confirms the data

[tulip silo]

who tests the car in practice?

[tall wyvern]

There are so many sensors on the car the engineers can see when the car slides before the driver can feel it

[tulip silo]

(besides wind tunnels and simulations)

[zenith pumice]

they do, but their feedback is not going to be an aerodynamic finding. it's going to be a feeling, it's not going to be a specific "I think this component is not working and we should tweak it like this". as beam wing said, it confirms data, or identifies a new place for engineers to gather data.

[tulip silo]

so the engineers rely on precise sensor output/testing methods rather than the driver himself?

[tall wyvern]

Yep

And the driver can corroborate

But the driver can’t say ‘they’re tyre wake is getting jetting into the diffuser at a ride height above 50mm and causing diffuser stall’

[zenith pumice]

well, they're engineers. their data is pretty much what tells them what works and what doesn't. the driver beyond that either has to say "well maybe we can set it up differently because I don't like the way the car is turning" (which is a setup thing, not a concept thing), or has to get used to it

[tall wyvern]

Hamilton and Schumacher both had a problem where they just drive round problems, for example willem toet tells a story where Eddie was a second down on sch and just could not drive the car at all, but sch was as quick as ever. They realised there was a pitch sensitive separation on the front floor. They fixed it and Eddie was as quick as sch. That’s not something a driver can report other than ‘SOMETHING IS WRONG’

[modest solstice]

How do cars measure grip

like

How do those electronic systems apply The right pressure at The brake right at The limit of grip

like How do they know The limit

[craggy moon]

Drivers or teams

[tall wyvern]

There’s a slip sensor, which measures the difference between road speed and tyre speed. That’s illegal though because it’s ABS, so instead the drivers have to feel the slip themselves.

[slender wagon]

it starts from tire data

take a tire, put it on a spinning rig with a sandpaper belt and sweep it through steering angles, measure force that it produces and you get a curve of what the tire can do. The most famous one is lateral grip vs. slip angle if you want to start reding on it, then you start building you car from there :v

[modest solstice]

How would u know road speed, and How much slip is The optimal

[modest solstice]

yea ik

But like

Active monitoring

Such as tcs and abs

[tall wyvern]

Using a correvit sensor, which is an optical sensor which reads the road movement. The ones on F1 cars read both longitudinal and lateral so slip angle can be measured.

10% ish slip is best, so the tyres are moving 10% of the car speed

[modest solstice]

10% slower u mean right?

also

It there a way we can predict this friction curve

Because like

In a circuit the grip is never constant

always a bit more or a bit less in certain areas

[modest solstice]

So we can stay spot on The highest friction state

[short ether]

Ive always found this types of sensors interesting. I thought f1 used gyro as accelerometer on their cars. I deal with model rockets and i use arduino with gyro module for telemetry data

[jolly phoenix]

new to f1 , where can i understand the aerodynamics of the cars just curious

[limpid token]

if you are really new, i'd suggest binging a lot of ChainBear videos

he will teach you the basics

after that you can decide if you want to go deeper or if its enough, but by that point YT should start showing you relevant videos, if not, feel free to come here again for recommendations

[modest solstice]

Well It would for sure measure the accelerations, but not the speed

[tall wyvern]

Yeah I meant off not of

[tall wyvern]

It’s always this shape really

[modest solstice]

yea but like

For different conditions

So It automatically adapts for track temperature, dirt, rain or whatever changes The grip

And calculating The optimal slip angle for The moment

like a torque vectoring system (idk If its called that)

[short ether]

Its a very clever technique actually to measure the speed with light, also light and cheap

[modest solstice]

I meant The gyro and acellerometer

but yea even Ur mouse does it

[prime mortar]

anyone know with sargant if it was a stuck button or the computer freaked out and started throwing crazy Bbal

[languid spear]

Guys noob here, just asking how the whole zero pod thing works

[limpid token]

In what sense?

• how does it work legally?
• why should it be faster than normal?
• how they are still cooling the car if there are 'no sidepods' ?

[tulip silo]

where can i find guidelines/techniques for hand-drawing blueprints? I know a CAD software would be a better option but i want to train my hand

[flat imp]

Ah yes my favorite lost art, technical drafting

[onyx nova]

anyone know yet what the upgrade RB are saying they have for imola?

[flat imp]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0080966527/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502997383&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=engineering+drawing this book is great if your library has it, I don’t recommend shelling out cash for it though as it’s quite expensive. Same for the Frederick Giesecke “Technical Drawing” book. There’s any number of youtube videos out there about drafting and perspective, and you can also most definitely find a lot of templates and stencils for cheap. Definitely respect wanting to train your hand but be aware that it’s a skill that isn’t super useful to have in the engineering world these days

https://www.graphicstandards.com This website is also much much more architectural in nature but the skills are transferable and it’s a bible to me. Incredibly useful

[tulip silo]

thanks a bunch, this was exactly what i was looking for

[short ether]

I think this is the correct channel but

Would Mclaren be where they are now if Andrea didnt join mclaren and seidl had stayed at mclaren?

[deft burrow]

Andrea had already been there 4 years before Seidl came aboard. I'd reckon it turn out the exact same way

[azure wind]

Bottom two please

[limpid token]

Your floor gives you shitton of downforce, the idea behind zeropods (aka shrinking it as much as possible in the middle of the car and near the coke bottle area) is that you expose the top of your floor to as much high pressure air as possible to give you more downforce from it
with downwash you want to get clean air on the beamwing to make more downforce, here you dont really care and want to boost up your way more efficient floor over it

the last point is fairly simple, imagine normal sidepods, but sideways, normal ones without undercut and just put flush to the side of the car

[edgy anchor]

Also reducing your sidepod width means you reduce frontal area

[prime mortar]

Fun fact, halos aren't mandatory. They go on a contractual basis. In the F1 sporting regulations it goes by the entry constructors choice. Also you can use superchargers but no one does and only uses turbos.

[solid raft]

halos will never go now that people have seen how much safer the halo can make driving

f1 still isnt 100% safe

but halos make it much safer

[umbral fossil]

Now I’m curious how goofy the 23 cars will look without halo

[prime mortar]

idk beg a team to change their contract with the fia. though I am sure there is some bonus they pay for having a halo.

Apparently the driver themselves can choose on their contract but idk if that is true.

but i can confirm that the teams can choose

[umbral fossil]

Imma buy Alpine and make car haloless

[granite tundra]

absolute nonsense

where on earth do people come up with this stuff

[flat imp]

Presumably their brains

If those exist

Somewhere in there

[prime mortar]

page 102 of the fia sporting regs 12.4.2 states that the halo must be provided by an fia approved manufacture. they also must insure that all the manufactures have a minimum mass.
"The FIA will take the appropriate measures to ensure that secondary roll structures supplied
by different FIA designated manufacturers are of similar mass."
it also states above that the halo is not considered part of the survival cell. the fia simply made the halo "legal" not mandatory. all teams were persuaded to use it.

[granite tundra]

bullshit

[prime mortar]

ill send a screen shot

[prime mortar]

there are other roll structures too. the halo is one of them

[granite tundra]

yes and it is mandatory

[prime mortar]

there was a point where a secondary roll structure wasnt laid out like it is now. i guess i was reading an older version

[granite tundra]

the halo didn't used to be defined as a secondary roll structure, but it was always mandatory

[prime mortar]

i am checking the 2018 regs rq

cant find any 2018 car regs but i now know there no other drink than water that is unbranded is allowed into the cool down room

okay so 2019 regs 17.2. says secondary structure testing is mandatory but it only mentions the halo once. at the very end it states "The side of the survival cell that is opposite to the application point of a Halo test load may
be restrained laterally by supports that conform to the sides of the survival cell."
i am not sure when it was changed to point out the specific halo we know. but at one point there was no specification about what a secondary roll structure was. only that the fia provided an approved halo that counted as a secondary roll structure.

so yes the halo is mandatory now. but (at least in 2019) if you could get a design that wasnt a halo approved by the fia. you could drive without a halo.

granted if anyone could get approved for not having a halo it would count

[granite tundra]

no you couldn't, the secondary roll structure was a standard component specified by the FIA

[prime mortar]

yes i know. there are different manufacture that are approved by the fia. if there was one that made some design that wasnt even a halo, and someone at the fia somehow approved it. it would work

no one at the fia would approve it but it would still be considered a secondary roll structure

[granite tundra]

that's an argument of semantics and even then it isn't true

it would be homologated under standard 8869-2018- which calls it a halo

you would not be able to design something different to the halo because the homologation would not allow for it

[prime mortar]

that is the standard for a halo. in 2018 it wasnt made part of the secondary roll structure like it is now where is specifies that. sure standard 8869-2018 is a halo which is considered mandatory. sure it has a design that they manufactures need to conform to. but the 2019 regs didnt state that a design from 8869-2018 would be illegal.
so yes, my argument is semantic. but it is still true.

[granite tundra]

yes it was..

the regulations for the halo were worded exactly the same in 2018/19

secondary roll structure which according to the techncial appendix must be a structure compliant with 8869-2019

[prime mortar]

i dont think we are on the same page. what i was saying is that a design that some crazy person at the fia could have approved a crazy design for that halo. it will never happen but it could have been possible during that 2018/2019 - whenever regs.

[granite tundra]

no, it wasn't..

the technical homologation specifically gives you the dimensions and materials needed for the structure to be compliant

[prime mortar]

fia has the right of veto on any regulation and that could be part of it.

look i have to go eat lunch before i stave to death but my point is that you could make a car "without" a halo with out technically changing any rule. its a very very big technically but its still is true.

[granite tundra]

no you literally couldn't

you have absolutely comprehensively misunderstood the regulations

your qualifier is pointless, all you're saying is you could add anything to the car if you had the FIA decide they were to allow it

like yeah no shit..

[prime mortar]

okay dude imma go eat

[granite tundra]

the absolute state of this channel

[prime mortar]

👍

what you just said was the point i was making this entire time

[granite tundra]

"halos aren't mandatory"

uh huh

[prime mortar]

is there a way to see the amount of time i said "technically"

anyways do you also want to choose what i eat for lunch

[granite tundra]

preferably something that doesn't involve a lot of reading comprehension

[flat imp]

What great technical discussion had.

[granite tundra]

i love this server

[flat imp]

Welp. Back to grading intro fluid mech

[tall wyvern]

Kind of backwards, W13/14 style sidepods are for retro two main reasons: maximum amount of air delivered to the rear of the car, and more flexible floor to the advantage of aeroelasticity. That came back to bite the teams that tried it though.

The floor has the same area where whether the floor is covered by sidepod or not

[pliant otter]

not sure if this is technical, but ive just seen somone say that zigzagging does not increase tyre temperature but instead just maintains tyre temperature. is this true or nah

[glass silo]

no, weaving does increase tire temp.

[flat imp]

I don’t understand the question

[fair heath]

any upgrades this week?

[flat imp]

You can’t keep temperature in a cooling system without adding heat. That’s what the weaving does. If you’re not adding heat you’re losing it so by weaving you’re putting that energy in, which is the heat. If you’re maintaining a temperature, you’re still heating tires

[serene plover]

the "smell" from lance's car must be brake fluid ye

[frail fern]

Btw cannot the whole sidepod radiator sucking in plastic bags/visors and everything that can kill it could be fixed with the radiator having an outlet on the bottom side into the floor?

Like a mandated hole on the floor

Or that would not work?

[merry delta]

besides circuit specific rear wings and beam wings, no, not really

[ashen venture]

I don't know why, but I saw one of the mclarens cars go into the FIA garage

[tall wyvern]

Weaving adds almost no heat to the tyre, it’s mainly tyre cleaning and fun

[sweet tree]

childhood ruined

[umbral fossil]

that’s why Kimi sometimes just didn’t weave at times

Those shots where hella cold btw

[regal rose]

hey idk if this channel is the right place or not, so im new ish to F1, only watchee a little last year and am into it this year, wondering if anyone can help explain the stats page on the F1 TV app? especially the yellow green and purple bars / colors

lmk if i need to ask somewhere else

[polar fern]

Yellows sector = normal
Green = personal best but not fastest overall
Purple = Fastest of the session

[regal rose]

thats helpful but how does the coordinate to the bars here?

if you dont mind me asking

[polar fern]

So everyone with yellow didn’t do their PB

Aka shit lap

Everyone green is faster than their best but not fastest overall

Then purple is fastest for the whole session out of everyone

[regal rose]

ohhh so each square is a lap

i didnt catch that

correct?

[sharp sundial]

It’s a sector of a lap

[regal rose]

oh yeah

[polar fern]

More specifically micro sectors that make up a sector

[regal rose]

ahhh okay