f1-technical

[silent heron]

Probably

What even is this red bull car💀. 👋👋 Bye bye it’s crazy

[short ether]

Crazy undercut

[jovial delta]

why does mercedes got wires on the strering wheel ?

[silent heron]

it's an accelerometer to measure oscillations along all the 3 axis

Idk why though, maybe to measure the porpoising or bottoming, but idk why they would put it on the steering wheel.

They might have some sort of device on the wheel and that's why they put those.

[prisma fulcrum]

any idea about the laptimes currently posted?

are they low fuel runs

didnt catch the first 4 hours

[silent heron]

They’re not very significant. To really see anything at all you should look at onboards, but there’s not much to tell from just the laptimes

They still mostly looked to be heavy/mid fuel runs like always

[prisma fulcrum]

were they all on softs?

i was thinking the same thing

why would they open up with low fuel runs

someone pointed out it was low fuel runs and just confused me

i would think the engines are turned down and theyre doing high/med fuel runs

[silent heron]

I do not know what tires they’re on, but they all seem to be in high fuel. Bottas, Hamilton, De Vries just now.

[silent heron]

Yes

[prisma fulcrum]

just to confirm these are the top times right

like the 1:32.9 max posted

[silent heron]

The ones on the left are their best times

[prisma fulcrum]

yes

[silent heron]

Yes it’s his best time

That probably was a lower fuel run

And on fresher tires, but they are not pushing.

[prisma fulcrum]

yeah

[silent heron]

Btw

Most runs were on C2/C3

[dark onyx]

Look at ferrari

[silent heron]

It’s a bit of non-structural material which at high speed just failed. They have to add some aluminium under for it not to deform which does add some weight.

[autumn flower]

but if they add weight to the front won't the car be out of balance?

[silent heron]

It’s about grams

When the car weighs much more it doesn’t change the balance significantly

[autumn flower]

yeh alr your right

[silent heron]

But it’s still grams which are important to stay under the weight limit

[autumn flower]

yep

[harsh flicker]

So guys. What does the verdict looks like.?

Mercedes, ferrari or redbull?

[silent heron]

Red bull.

Might change tomorrow when we see Checo

[edgy anchor]

If it wasn't intentional, that is

[gilded wave]

are there any regs about the floor edge?

[compact rivet]

So I wonder that with the new cooling stuff they can pack the cooling a lot tighter
we saw Merc use it last year to completely cut away the sidepods

isn't the RB trick of having this GIANT undercut even a better alternative to that?
because it's funneling the air better around which helps the groundeffect + diffuser

[silent heron]

We will see which option pays more with on-track performance. But yes the Red Bull alternative seems to be even better

[silent heron]

I think this

[gilded wave]

yea

do u hv the whole doc?

[silent heron]

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_2023_formula_1_technical_regulations_-_issue_1_-_2022-06-29.pdf

[gilded wave]

thanks

[silent heron]

You’re welcome

[edgy anchor]

Does that have 2023 changes in it?

[silent heron]

It’s the 2023 regulations

But it doesn’t show the changes from 2022 to 2023 if that’s what you mean

[tall wyvern]

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_2023_formula_1_technical_regulations_-_issue_5_-_2023-02-22.pdf

You posted an old edition

[silent heron]

Oh sorry

[edgy anchor]

[silent heron]

They changed it yesterday?💀

[sweet tree]

lmao

[stray wraith]

Its red bull but not based on goofy ass testing day, they are the leader till otherwise because of last year

[grand eagle]

Any update of it?

[silent heron]

Yes it’s not a hole

[craggy moon]

does anyone have any images of cars with flow-viz paint on?

[rich gust]

This might sound fuckin stupid....but could the FIA mandate a minimum paint weight in an effort to ensure that there's more liveries & not just a grid full of bare carbon fiber cars

[silent heron]

Probably not, unless everyone goes full carbon fiber

[edgy anchor]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/914818911621509191/1078672681324531873/image0.jpg

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/LCll6-mxiuWLJGrQlN4llYJcVFpPKa4GZnPH4GHaFmg/https/cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl/6O1RWvm2/s1200/max-verstappen-red-bull-racing-1.webp

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/914818911621509191/1078604011428655194/IMG_2664.jpg

[silent heron]

That is some nice flow

[sweet tree]

fr

oof

[craggy moon]

launch control is not allowed yes?

[silent heron]

Yes, not allowed.

[craggy moon]

how is it defined in the rule book?

[silent heron]

Maybe this

And traction control is under another section I’m guessing

[craggy moon]

its strange why they dont allow driver aids. this is supposed to be the fastest motorsport in the world, and they dont do everything to make the cars faster. its backwards not allowing them to use driver aids

and wouldnt it also just make the cars safer

[stark adder]

because you don't get the best drivers by giving them driving aids

best drivers can understand their limit and be within it

[craggy moon]

but you also dont get the fastest cars by not having aids

[edgy anchor]

Yes but what's the appeal of driving if the car is doing most of the work in throttle input, especially with Brakes

[craggy moon]

in that argument then why is there power steering?

[silent heron]

So the driver’s arms don’t die by the end of the race

You’d need them to have some incredible force (maybe overly human) in their arms

[craggy moon]

but you dont get the best drivers in the world if they are not strong enough

[silent heron]

And you wouldn’t get the best drivers

[silent heron]

Talent =/= Physical Strength

[craggy moon]

talent is also not the ability to keep a car from locking up

[silent heron]

What?

[edgy anchor]

I would personally also not allow power steering but I'd want active suspension

[silent heron]

Keeping a car from locking up is talent

You sense the limit of the tire

Racing a car is not just turning left and right

[craggy moon]

and so is turning the wheel of a car with no power steering

indycar dosent have power steering

they also race on circuits

[edgy anchor]

I'm struggling to see your point here

Okay granted it doesn't seem to make the most sense, but the current definition of driver aids has been this way since 2008, and I guess is regarded as the best way forward

[craggy moon]

im saying that to have the fastest cars possible then the drivers have to be able to push the cars to the max, this way the cars would be better, and the racing would be faster and better

[edgy anchor]

You seem to want driver aids for speed of cars yet you contest that we don't have a good show of driver talent either

[craggy moon]

when did i say we dont have talented drivers

[edgy anchor]

Nobody did

[silent heron]

1. F1’s objective isn’t to have the fastest cars of all motorsport categories. If that was what they wanted they would give no technical regulations at all.
2. With driver aids, a less talented driver can be put on the same level of a talented driver and the drivers would all be +-0.05s off of each other.

[sweet tree]

Is it better to hit a barrier nose first or from the side?

[silent heron]

Nose first

From a racing point of view, the front wing can be changed and there is less chance of breaking a suspension. While if you hit it from the side, your suspensions are likely to snap and you are more likely to damage the floor edge.
From a safety point of view, I still think the front is better, because you have a larger impact structure.

[drifting cove]

this is prob no more relevant but what does that hole at the end do

[sweet tree]

probably vortices

[unreal pivot]

Always side on if it’s max verstappen

[short ether]

What’s the metallic piece on top of the heave hamper

[short ether]

Could you point out the hole?

[silent heron]

He means where the top part of the end plate cuts (from what I understand).

[short ether]

Oh

Vortices

[mild iron]

why was lewis the only one to consistanly go on the blue asphalt but nobody else did

at turn 8

[silent heron]

Just the way he drove into that corner on that occasion I guess

[jade moss]

Taking the e-sports line

[edgy anchor]

What metallic piece? The blue? The white square? Either way neither are on top of the heave

[short ether]

There is small metal rod attached to a gear of some sort to a damper.
Idk if it’s a heave or not but I’d like to know what it’s for

[short ether]

Very wide on that occasion but you can afford to dip a tyre on the kerb

[agile raven]

I don’t know but I noticed it too and wondered

[edgy anchor]

Oooh

[mild iron]

he took the line consistantly

i watched the final hours, and he took that line every time

[edgy anchor]

To me that looks connected to the plug and the gear teeth on the heave so it might be a data logging measuring part, or could be an adjustment fixture for the heave

[short ether]

Probably a sensor

[edgy anchor]

That's the word

[short ether]

Also why is Red Bull suspension so much better than Merc?
I presumed the new regs are quite stringent on development of inboard suspension so is the ability to have a much smoother riding just the rocker setup/placement or aerodynamics?

[silent heron]

He must’ve found grip there, or there to be no loss in grip there. He chose to do it so he would make a better turn starting wider.

No loss compared to normal asphalt

[mild iron]

redbull and merc basically have a different everything, including suspension, redbull use a pushrod on rear and pullrod on front, merc have the opposite, pushrod on front, pullrod on rear, this could be other way around i dont exactly remember

[short ether]

Yeah

[short ether]

I mean inboard as I’ve heard pushrod/pullrod doesn’t change much apart from packaging issues

[short ether]

And centre of gravity of course

[short ether]

Nice pics

[mild iron]

also adrian newey designed the suspension for redbull this year,

might explainb alot

[short ether]

Is that flowvis or laced with Mountain Dew?

[short ether]

Needs a nerf

[mild iron]

no

its just a picture with highlighted pullrods/pushrods

[agile raven]

That is flowvis right?

[silent heron]

Yes

[agile raven]

Ok thx (I am new into the tech side of F1)

[silent heron]

No problem, and welcome!

[short ether]

The Race’s Gary Anderson said the RB19 had the “same suspension philosophy as 2022, a pullrod front with lots of stagger on the inboard pick-ups of the top wishbone, and a pushrod rear.

What does Gary mean by stagger in this context?

[slate bridge]

What's the purpose on the duct ferrari is using in the sf-23?

[short ether]

We think it serves a dual purpose for aerodynamics and cooling.

A lot of good and bad air from the wing/front suspension can detach so this will channel it along to the rear

[slate bridge]

thx

[slate bridge]

just realized sf-23 has a slat in the halo

[primal patrol]

pullrod or pushrod configs don't have any significant advantage over one another

for all i know

[random geyser]

Really booby question but are side pods just there for aero purposes or is there another reason? Cool the engine?

[gilded wave]

in terms of aerodynamics, which suspension is better? a push rod or pull rod?

[glacial patrol]

depends on the rest of the car

[merry delta]

side pods contain radiators which are used for cooling. Generally, it's for the engine, but it cools more than that as well

with the new regs, there is a lack of bargeboards (well, they do exist, but in a much much simpler form) so instead teams have been shaping their sidepods in different ways to control airflow

[random geyser]

Is there any good references to all the different bits of an f1 car and what it achieves/is used for?

[formal flint]

the answer is

quack

https://tenor.com/view/duck-quack-gif-26493149

[zinc bison]

Can a driver voluntarily not use DRS?

[lone granite]

I'm pretty sure there is a button they press so I assume so

[ornate hamlet]

yep, sometimes they’re not allowed or can’t use it because of a problem

[agile raven]

Yes there is

[silent heron]

I don’t think there’s a general site/document that explains all devices on a car.

Maybe you could find something by looking up guides to F1, but I’m not sure. You can also just ask here.

[vagrant dust]

There's an instagram account called F1 car (I think it's that) that describes every basic part of an f1 car

[random geyser]

Do you have a link? If not I'll Google.

[vagrant dust]

https://instagram.com/2022f1car?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[random geyser]

Thanks bud

[vagrant dust]

It's very basic

But it does the job

[random geyser]

Thanks

I don't really understand the point of the diffuser is? Just seems to be a way of forcing the air upwards?

[random geyser]

Where has merc put the radiator then lol

[merry delta]

their radiators are tightly integrated into the chassis itself

[random geyser]

Ok

[vagrant dust]

What is wrong with williams

Like the problem

What is it

[desert plank]

There is a problem

[agile raven]

The Problem is they don’t have goatifi anymore

[vagrant dust]

Could someone explain to me what is Power Steering because in my language we don't say that

And idk what it is

[coral glade]

It's hydraulically assisted steering

Makes the wheel lighter and the car easier to turn due to the extra force from the hydraulics

[vagrant dust]

Oooh

Thanks

[coral glade]

Np

[silent heron]

Very simply:
The air around the car travels at a certain speed (because the car is travelling in the opposite direction to it). The air under the car (at the floor) has less space which pushes it to go faster. If the air moves faster there is less pressure so the car sticks to the ground.
The point of the diffuser is to reintegrate air under the car to ambient conditions.
The smoother the transition (the less steep the diffuser), the less likely the flow is to separate (causing drag). Also, the longer the diffuser is the more the downforce is spread through the vehicle, but if it’s not steep enough it won’t produce enough downforce.

[sweet tree]

Air

[silent heron]

@random geyser

[silent heron]

Air

[sweet tree]

Air

[random geyser]

Thanks. Why does less pressure create downforce?

[sweet tree]

It sucks

[ripe linden]

Air

[tall wyvern]

I will add two things to this.

The point of expanding the air and increasing its pressure is to reduce the back pressure under the floor, which means more air gets sucked through the floor, faster, which is more workable energy and lower pressure. This is why the beam is important; it drops the pressure at the diffuser roof which sucks more air through.

The diffuser is a system of two extremely strong, counter-rotating vortices, fed by the floor but mainly from outside the car, which is why the cars have cut outs ahead of the rear wheels. The air doesn’t separate in a diffuser (a separation bubble at the front quarter between the vortices is actually good), the vortices burst. The drag created by the huge negative pressure acting in the x direction from the vortices is more than the drag generated by the burst vortices (stalled floor), which is why the red bull is so fast on the straight. They can burst the vortices and stall the floor, dumping the load.

[sweet tree]

are you an engineer? 😭

[silent heron]

He’s got a masters in aerospace engineering

[unreal pivot]

I read that and processed the information but it’s like trying to hold a wet bar of soap

[civic fern]

short version: they stall the floor on the straights, reducing both downforce and drag

[edgy anchor]

Low pressure means vacuum, vacuum means suck

So the higher the difference is between the pressure up top and the pressure beneath, the more downforce you have

Hence why the BT46B Fan car was so sticky as they essentially put a Damn henry hoover on that bad boi

[random geyser]

Why low pressure mean vacuum

[edgy anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/blink-blinking-what-confused-blacklist-gif-13641169

What?

[random geyser]

It was sort of a joke. I'll google

Actually I can't find anything. Why does low pressure mean a vacuum? Is this similar to hot particles moving towards cold? It's probably some very basic physics thing I can't find a link to.

[edgy anchor]

Yeah

If you move something in the place of somewhere, and then take it away quickly, what you're left with is not a thing so air wants to fill that gap

Just here... Underneath there's stuff being taken out by the flow of air so the car wants to fill that gap

[random geyser]

OK that does make sense for my noob brain

[edgy anchor]

That's diffusion

[silent heron]

I thought it was more like:
Less pressure means less particles
Vacuum has no particles.
A vacuum rather than sucking doesn't resist things being pushed into it.
The car pushes into the low pressure.

[edgy anchor]

I mean sure if I got the wording

Do we not think that low pressure can be re worded as Relative vacuum?

[silent heron]

I'm not sure, just correct me if i'm wrong

[edgy anchor]

Or does it need to be called Partial?

In terms of the Venturi?

[silent heron]

probably partial vacuum

[edgy anchor]

🅱️oi

[random geyser]

Pushes because of the high pressure on top?

That makes sense to me if that's true

[silent heron]

yes.

[silent heron]

Actually, now that I think about it more, I'm not sure pressure in Venturi would be low enough for it to be anywhere close to a vacuum.

It's probably just the high pressure pushing on the low pressure.

[random geyser]

OK the bit which is counter intuitive to me is that high pressure isn't the faster air right? I would have thought it would be, for instance the front wing being pushed into the floor by the wind hitting it on the front

[silent heron]

Well it's not. Pressure and velocity are inversely proportional

[random geyser]

Maybe I'm thinking about drag then

[silent heron]

Yes. The "wind" hitting the front of the wing is causing drag, rather than pushing the wing down.

[random geyser]

Air* haha

[edgy anchor]

High pressure is topside

[silent heron]

It's this but reverse

the idea is that if you take 2 particles that split at the leading edge (initial part of the wing) they will meet each other at the trailing edge (end of the wing).
Since the top of the wing is of longer distance, the particle on top will travel faster.

change top with bottom when applied to f1

[tall wyvern]

NOOOOOOO

equal transit time detected

Neenawneenaw

[silent heron]

I guess I made a massive mistake

[tall wyvern]

They will NOT meet each other at the trailing edge. Rest is true though, air accelerates over one side and decelerates over the other

It’s a very common mistake because it makes sense conceptually

[silent heron]

but why does it accelerate?

[tall wyvern]

Short answer is circulation. Circulation is the integral of the velocity over an infinitesimal distance around a closed curve surrounding the aerofoil. It is finite. There is a thing called the kutta condition, which is where the air flow from the top and bottom must leave the trailing edge smoothly to produce lift. Around an aerofoil there are an infinite number of circulation and streamline solutions. The one which actually happens is the one which satisfies the kutta condition. In a lifting wing, the circulation is in the direction of flow on the suction surface, and opposite the direction of flow on the pressure surface, for the kutta condition to be satisfied.

[silent heron]

Thank you, I'll try to process this.

Yeah... haven't done integrals in school yet, so I'll come back to this.

[tall wyvern]

Also look up starting vortex, because that’s what defines the aerofoil circulation, and is opposite direction to the starting vortex circulation

Integral is just adding all the little bits

[silent heron]

Ok, I will

[tall wyvern]

Imagine you divide a 1m stick into 10x 10cm. Then divide those into 10x 1cm. Then do it again and again infinite times.

Call the amount dx, which is an infinitely small ‘amount of x’, in this case distance along the stick.

If you integrate dx from the beginning of the stick to the end, you get 1m again because you’re adding up all the little dx bits that you split it into.

So with regards to circulation, if you draw an arbitrary (closed) curve around an aerofoil, and then look at the velocity at every infinitely small distance along that curve (call each of them ds, so v x ds), from the a point in the curve and all the way round it till you get back to the start, you’ve integrated vds across the whole curve, which gives you circulation.

[silent heron]

so integrating is the adding up of all the small bits

[tall wyvern]

Yep pretty much, physically speaking

[silent heron]

and the integral is the tiny small bit or what?

It can't be the small bit because it's infinitely small ig

[tall wyvern]

The integral is all the tiny small bits added together

[silent heron]

ok so the 1m

[tall wyvern]

If you add an infinite number of infinitely small bits together you get an actual number.

Yep

[silent heron]

oh ok ok

[tall wyvern]

So you divide the 1m into an infinite number of infinitely small bits, then when you integrate it you add them all together to make a whole.

So circulation, you take your arbitrary closed curve, C. You divide the length of it from an arbitrary starting point into an infinite number of infinitely small parts, and you call each one ds. You add up the velocity in the tangent direction of the curve at each of these infinitely small points (integrate), and this gives you the circulation.

[silent heron]

ok, clear. What is it measured in though?

[tall wyvern]

metres ^2 per second (velocity x distance) but they don’t really matter

[silent heron]

Ok ok thanks

It makes so much sense now

Like the derivative of velocity is in meters per second ^ 2. While the integral is the opposite

[tall wyvern]

Yes, but in thst context it’s with respect to time, whereas this is in respect to distance. So differentiating velocity to get acceleration, you’re dividing the time into an infinite number of infinitely small units of time. Whereas for circulation you’re dividing a distance into an infinite number of infinitely small distances.

[silent heron]

Ok.. So integrating by time would just give you distance. While integrating by distance gives you circulation

[tall wyvern]

Depends which distance you’re integrating across haha. With circulation you’re specifically integrating across a distance around an arbitrary closed curve. Integrating a velocity with respect to distance will always be in units of metres^2 per second though.

[silent heron]

Ah ok, thank you again!

[tall wyvern]

Like this

You’re welcome, stay interested and keep reading and learning.

[stark adder]

that was very informative to read as a unintelligible f1 geek

thanks beam

[edgy anchor]

I msised the damn brain wrinkled convo?

Dammit

[sweet tree]

lmao

[edgy anchor]

Y'all wanna see the example of airspeed equals suction fr fr?

[split vigil]

Oh wow

[agile raven]

for some reason it looks better at the red bull. Like I mean it looks like thats how it should be

[split vigil]

Thats because its better with the redbull thats how you would want it to be

[agile raven]

okay

[split vigil]

But the difference is like way bigger than i would have thought

[agile raven]

yeah its huge

[placid lynx]

the merc paint is before run and rb paint is after run

[agile raven]

oh

[craggy moon]

that is not good

for merc

oh

[split vigil]

No its after aswel

[craggy moon]

no way it was after

[placid lynx]

well the merc engineer's are not idiot to not know any thing about aerodynamics
even williams car also has smooth flow

[split vigil]

Again it was after, now the yeah there is a big difference but what actually matters is the fine lines the air flow creates, these lines we cant really see

[split vigil]

Of course not its also not about dipping an entire car in flow vis its more about fine line details certain parts do

[silent heron]

The Mercedes didn’t run yet in that photo

Just draw the lines. The flow starts at a point and just drops straight down? Impossible

[split vigil]

Well thats what i hear from multiple people but nonetheless its gonna be about small lining we wont see

[silent heron]

What is gonna be a small lining we won’t see?

The flow vis? We would see it because that’s the whole point of it.

[split vigil]

The small details

Like the very fine lines that the air has created

[silent heron]

Well you can trace them

Ad for the Red Bull picture there’s a higher quality one where you can actually trace the lines

[green marlin]

There is a picture, with this flow-vis on it. I believe that was after it was ran. Looked equally as messy as on this picture.

[silent heron]

If it was equally as messy, the car probably wouldn’t be as fast as it currently is. Anyways, picture?

[random geyser]

Is there an open university course for aerodynamics?

[random geyser]

Wtf how?

[edgy anchor]

In order to compensate for going through such a teeny aperture, air from high pressure, static area increases speed massively, but compensates by dropping it's pressure to keep the energy the same

[random geyser]

This is crazy confusing
I love it

[edgy anchor]

That drop in pressure wants to be filled, it sucks along whatever is behind it

Also I think this also shows the coanda effect

[random geyser]

Are there any good sites to learn aero from the beginning? Most of it doesn't seem intuitive lol

[primal patrol]

air go fast, air also get less dense, other air rushes in to fill the gaps

[edgy anchor]

Ngl I don't have a clue where to start with aero I just kinda... Got it or was told how it works

[tall wyvern]

Air doesn’t get less dense

[random geyser]

I presume you went to university for aerodynamics?

[random geyser]

High pressure Air goes towards low pressure air as long as there is a way of it getting there right?

[silent heron]

.

[silent heron]

It will always try to go there

even through solids (but they can't)

[tall wyvern]

First part’s not true anymore lol

[silent heron]

phd?

or that f1 teams look at your application?

[edgy anchor]

Nah, high pressure air doesn't go to low pressure anymore

On labour strike

[silent heron]

[tall wyvern]

The latter

[primal patrol]

i agree, that was bad wording on my part

[twilit valve]

Does anyome know If McLaren has any updates?

[modest solstice]

Mercedes doing redbull and Ferrari style wing

Why is It that thicc

Look at How thicc the carbon layer is

[sweet tree]

is this true or is he waffling

[silent heron]

Through the floor yes

I don’t think so overall

[sweet tree]

ah

[craggy moon]

and i guess the efficiency isnt as good as well

[silent heron]

Well actually generating air through the floor is much more efficient than through wings because of drag

[craggy moon]

true, but they dont have the complex devices on the cars or any of the innovations that are made

[silent heron]

What complex devices?

[craggy moon]

stuff like the multi-piece front wings, and im thinking of last regulations but the little devices on the front of the floor, the complex sidepods, etc.

[sweet tree]

They were comparing the Lmp1 cars to the 2017 f1 cars

I assume because that comment was from 2017

2016 or 2017

[craggy moon]

so the then f1 cars were less efficient but had more peak downforce and more overall power

[silent heron]

Also current f1 cars, but yes

[craggy moon]

i mean the current f1 cars have way more underbody downforce and power but i would say that they lmps have more efficient aero packages

[silent heron]

I’m not sure about the underbody part

[craggy moon]

isnt that the whole point in the new regs?

[sweet tree]

do they have better underbody downforce than lmp1 cars ?

[silent heron]

Not sure

[craggy moon]

i dont watch endurance races so idk

[silent heron]

The point is to have cleaner flow behind the car

[modest solstice]

Maybe The lmph cuz The rules are less strict than f1

[civic fern]

yes, but you're probably not going to like them

you can probably just yoink opencoursware from MIT online but it's not going to be what you think it is

The LMP1s have definitely have less drag just due to having closed wheels and a cockpit than an F1

open tires are something like 40% of the drag on any given open wheel car

[random geyser]

Whys that?

[civic fern]

here is lecture 4 from my Aerodynamics 1 course two years ago, which contains some pretty fundamental basic principles that will be necessary for understanding Aero (much much) later on

what do you think?

[random geyser]

I'd need to know what to study before that lecture 😉

[silent heron]

Complete school first

Basically

Or any diploma level physics and maths

You can’t jump to uni level

[silent heron]

Thank you

[jade cloud]

https://twitter.com/startonpole/status/1630984175762145303?t=Pi6Duy9nJA0AwTDBmZkxPg&s=19

Aston Martin F1 updates (@startonpole)

Former performance engineer of Force India and Redbull, Blake Hensey about Aston Martin

“The pace is real, it is really impressive and it is hard to fake that”

In addition he analyses the tire degradation and AMR23 actually have the so called negative degradation

Likes

2863

Retweets

149

Twitter · Mar 1, 2023, 5:31 PM

[craggy moon]

what does that even mean

they gain rubber?

[formal estuary]

The weight loss from fuel burn outweighs the tire performance loss, obviously there's still actual tire deg, or they weren't pushing very hard and were more focused on setting consistent laptimes.

[craggy moon]

damn

thats like amazing

so its pretty consistent performance for the whole stint?

if not getting better lap by lap?

[silent heron]

Yes

[craggy moon]

thats amazing

[grand eagle]

Why would some teams prefer to run 2 pillar supports on the rear wing instead of a singular pillar support?

[unreal pivot]

Which teams do?

[jade robin]

I think alfa romeo does it

[ashen aurora]

Something I noticed while watching DTS, last year it seems like McLaren's wing was pretty wobbly.
That seems like it'd be counterintuitive when trying to wrangle the airflow

[dark hound]

Hey what do you guys think of my new statistics website? f1stats.app

[jade robin]

Looks cool, I like it

[ashen aurora]

Pretty slick!
Based on the ergast API?

[dark hound]

Yup!

[merry delta]

2 pillar setups can be lighter than 1

[silent heron]

@deft burrow He’s just sent this video in every channel

Can you delete? Thanks

[jade cloud]

https://twitter.com/F1DataAnalysis/status/1631755574483509250?t=XJCR0Gk6rkS9ygLW5CPEKQ&s=19

F1 Data Analysis 📈 (@F1DataAnalysis)

In brief: the AM is a downforce monster with the highest grip levels of ALL the grid so far!

VER wasn't confident with his car, and his braking was sub-optimal

The Ferrari seems to have a slightly lower lateral grip than the others, but the braking is as strong as the AM #F1

Likes

1297

Twitter · Mar 3, 2023, 8:37 PM

[zinc smelt]

[balmy bear]

It’s pretty cool!

[raw sleet]

Yeah pretty cool

[short ether]

NASA be like

[raw sleet]

[random geyser]

Lateral acceleration?

[random geyser]

Lmao I completed school a long time ago.

[silent heron]

Lol, then it shouldn’t be too hard. You can look up videos on YouTube if there’s stuff you don’t know

Like lessons on calculus or whatever you need

[remote palm]

These are the predictions for tyre deg. Softs seem to be the best tyres in the first 15 laps, which is really good for short stints. Mediums seem to be losing time to both softs and hards, which means almost nobody will use them. Hards are the best tyres to switch to for the mandatory rule, since they seem to be better than mediums for long stints, performing better after just 10 laps.

all the data was gathered from the official F1 site and press.pirelli.com
the data could be inaccurate, even though it makes sense

[clear cargo]

A soft soft medium or soft medium medium strategy (2 stop) may be best for Ferrari

I think since they’re struggling with tyre deg + they saved that soft tyre set

They shoul

[silent heron]

They don't have medium tyres available

they'll do soft-soft-hard I think

or the other way round

Hard-soft-soft

[remote palm]

it doesn’t really make sense for any team to use the mediums, unless they have insanely low deg

I expect everyone to use softs and hards

also because with softs you gain ~1.3 seconds on the first lap and still gain time for at least 10 laps

[clear cargo]

Oh yeah hard not mediums you’re right

[remote palm]

but the temperatures are critical: if they’re too high at the beginning of the race softs could lose performance and mediums gain

[remote palm]

based on my graph and everyone’s tyres, everyone below norris is going to use softs frequently. the top ten is disadvantaged as they all have used softs apart from leclerc.
THE BEST STRATEGY FOR ALL TEAMS IS ANY-HARD-SOFT/HARD

[gilded wave]

medium stratergies most prolly not going to be used right?

[remote palm]

most probably

unless someone starts with mediums instead of softs

I see leclerc doing the first strat and sainz doing the second, while the redbulls do the last one

[silent heron]

Question. Is it not better to start on Hards, given the higher temps at the start of the race compared to the end?

So as to maximise the soft stints later on?

[remote palm]

it doesn’t really boost hards, mediums would be boosted more though

that’s why I don’t really agree with pirelli’s strats

[silent heron]

Hards are basically same as mediums

So..

[remote palm]

I don’t think everyone is going to start on softs, some could start on mediums

[silent heron]

.

I feel Mercedes will start on Hards and Softs

Same for Aston Martin

[remote palm]

could be

idk

[silent heron]

Probably Softs for Alonso and hard for stroll

[remote palm]

yes

softs could also perform better in cold contitions

[silent heron]

Yeah

[compact rivet]

I see soke mid fielders gambling a 1 stop maybe

See if you can extend the mediums and hope for a safety car

[silent heron]

Btw Verstappen and Perez basically have new tyres

They’ve got 1 lap old tyres where they’ve done just an outlap on them

When they red flagged the track

[gilded wave]

didnt they continue to use those in q1 only?

[silent heron]

Max said they have a 1 lap old tyre

So apparently not

[lost elbow]

How do I get these cameras everyone is using

[chilly smelt]

What is pneumatic on these cars? Sorry if this isn’t the right channel to ask

[silent heron]

a pneumatic is a tyre as far as I know

[gentle sage]

Pneumatic systems make use of gases or pressurised air to get things going. That's why every time you saw Norris pit tonight, McLaren stuck a tube onto the side of the car to refill that system with air.

[chilly smelt]

What systems does it power?

[short ether]

Might be the wrong channel, but.
Does anyone have data on a lap chart/drivers stint times lap by lap?

[pearl night]

@pearl night

PABLO/DE VALLADOLID#1912

[silent heron]

What?

[pearl night]

@pearl night @pearl night

Sainz

[dark hound]

Interactive Lap Chart from Bahrain Grand Prix (f1stats.app/season/2023/1)

[coral glade]

💀

[placid lynx]

is there any other sidepod concept than inwash, downwash and no sidepod ?

[craggy moon]

max almost had a grandslam there

[strange dragon]

Do you now if with F1 TV PRO we can watch a gp with several devices ?

[sweet tree]

Bahrain Pole Times 2014-2023:
2014 - 1:33.185
2015 - 1:32.571
2016 - 1:29.493
2017 - 1:28.769
2018 - 1:27.958
2019 - 1:27.866
2020 - 1:27.264
2021 - 1:28.997
2022 - 1:30.558
2023 - 1:29.708

[sweet tree]

i think so

but this is the wrong channel for that

[strange dragon]

ah shit sorry

[sweet tree]

no problem

[civic fern]

jesus 2015 to 2016

that is over 3 seconds

a bigger gap than 2016 vs 2020

wtf happened

[left geode]

Well,Ultrasoft got introduced in 2016,engine makers got more development tokens than 2015,and we got the separate wastegate tailpipe

https://youtu.be/t_ddPf0A0IU

[sweet tree]

lmfao idk man

here are all the qualis

Bahrain Pole/Fastest Times (may not be accurate just used google):
2004 - 1:30.139 2005 - 1:29.848
2006 - 1:31.431 2007 - 1:32.652
2008 - 1:33.096 2009 - 1:33.431
(2010 and 2011 was a different layout)
2012 - 1:32.422 2013 - 1:32.330
2014 - 1:33.185 2015 - 1:32.571
2016 - 1:29.493 2017 - 1:28.769
2018 - 1:27.958 2019 - 1:27.866
2020 - 1:27.264 2021 - 1:28.997
2022 - 1:30.558 2023 - 1:29.708

[amber kraken]

You guys reckon that the Williams FW42 will beat the HAAS VF-21 in a race? Considering both of them were the slowest cars in their respective seasons, but the VF-21 had little-to-no upgrades while, I think, the FW42 had upgrades throughout its season

[vagrant dust]

What about the Fw44

Shit sucked

Wait it wouldn't work not the same aerodynamic

Same basis of aerodynamic*

[primal patrol]

how as am made such a huge leap from last season in terms of pace without significant rule changes

[glacial patrol]

Dan fallows can cook

[civic fern]

I think 2019 cars were overall faster than 2021

With 2021 being even slower than 2017

no joke F1 actually went from the fastest cars in history to the slowest of their generation in 1 year

the W12 with the rocket motor was still slower around Interlagos than the W08

[formal estuary]

Just imagine the v10s without grooved tires + drs

[misty valley]

Hey, I'm new in F1. Where I can find how F1 bolid works, i mean best explaination to beginners

[tepid plover]

https://youtu.be/Q-jjZMMxbZs

[flint sorrel]

Can anyone suggest a book which is about f1 cars and how they work (not too advanced or complicated, I'm just getting into f1).

[opaque arch]

How to build a car by adrian newey

@flint sorrel

[flint sorrel]

Oh yeah I saw this. Aight, thanks man

[left geode]

I have a PDF of that book

[gilded wave]

i thought it was an auto biography, not actually abt building an f1 car?

[topaz basin]

That book can be pricey but there are files to get it for free

[silent heron]

2 messages above yours

[topaz basin]

My bad didnt see it

[upper ivy]

Probably very much not legal though

[dusty walrus]

Hi guys. Does anybody know the size of the cross-sectional area of a formula 1 car? In school I have to do a presentation about: "Can a car drive on the roof in a tunnel?". I need to calculate the Downforce with the drag equation.

[upper ivy]

You could probably get a good enough estimate by taking a front view of a basemodel of current f1 cars (such as this https://cdn-3.motorsport.com/images/mgl/YMdnQxn2/s8/2022-front-view-rules-1.jpg); and then apply some of the maximum measurements defined in the rules https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_2023_formula_1_technical_regulations_-_issue_5_-_2023-02-22.pdf

approximating the shape with simple blocks might make it easier

however, keep in mind that drag alone does not equal downforce! This article might be a good starting point https://www.formula1-dictionary.net/downforce.html

[opaque arch]

Yeh I have a hardcopy

[coral glade]

I tried to make a unique b spec w14 and failed miserably

[final dust]

is that a hole in the sidepod?

[coral glade]

Essentially yes

Idk what purpose it would have

Don't read too far into it 🗣️

[final dust]

now that you told me, i will

[edgy idol]

Can i tell i know albert fabrega irl, he is my neighbour

[coral glade]

Update

[final dust]

there isnt any rule (from what i read) that a hole is not allowed in the sidepods

[coral glade]

So youre telling me that, from that standpoint, it's legal

W

[final dust]

im not sure

Source: ||https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_2023_formula_1_technical_regulations_-_issue_4_-_2022-12-07.pdf||

[coral glade]

It's a very unique concept and idk if itd actually be competitive

It looks neat tho

Visuals wise

[final dust]

it looks cool

ask adrian newey

[coral glade]

Ah yes lemme just call him up rq

[final dust]

can mario ai search the internet? XD

[silent heron]

that's an old version

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_2023_formula_1_technical_regulations_-_issue_5_-_2023-02-22.pdf

[final dust]

thanks

[silent heron]

np, I made the same mistake a few weeks ago lol

[final dust]

so, back to reading

[silent heron]

um.. where do you fit the electronics?

[coral glade]

Idk it wasn't supposed to be super realistic

I guess there may be space?

It'd be tight

[silent heron]

it looks very very tight

also, the hole you made would have to serve the purpose of cooling

so you'd have electronics around

[final dust]

Where can i find these illustrated?

[silent heron]

No idea 💀

[final dust]

not illustrated, but found it

Appendix 12.5

or the full appendix

god

and there is a group in every team that reads all of this?

i consider your design @coral glade legal, cuz i cant read all of that

maybe bc english is not my first language

[coral glade]

W

It's fine if you can't read it It's really tough and boring lmao

[final dust]

yeah

imma go play some powerwash sim instead

lmk if there is any updates from the regulations

[tall wyvern]

https://cad.onshape.com/documents/bfa61ffc5cadcfdc4d9d491f/w/3010b8bd2a86d7a5129bbd7e/e/80e32c10e27fc272166d39a3

Volumes and surfaces in the tabs at the bottom

[final dust]

ah thanks

one step closer

[silent heron]

Ths is a terriblbe drawing, but could you ave air going under the sidepod and then pop out where the back arrow is

Instead of going around the sidepod it goes under

[coral glade]

Yeah I'm working on a v2

[silent heron]

there's a limit to the undercut probably

but idk where it is

[coral glade]

Probably yea

[final dust]

btw how did you made the design? What was the base pic?

[amber kraken]

Just goes to show how fast the AMR23 is compared to its predecessor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ0Of8kgFUQ

[severe knoll]

i do hope that alonso gets the chance to fight for race wins, they cut off nearly 2 and a half seconds from their 2022 car to now

[tepid plover]

damnn

[left geode]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CppYc0ttdq-/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

howf1works

Fernando Alonso said it himself:”this is a lovely car to drive”, but how did Aston Martin go from the bottom of the midfield to second fastest car? Let’s find out 🏎️🔎

---

.
The reasons are plenty, both economical and technical. First of all, there are very solid foundations for the team. Money isn’t a problem and this obviously opens up many ...

Likes

1085

Instagram

Also,another plus

Aston Martin hiring Dan Fallows

Man literally worked with Adrian Newey since when Newey went to RedBull

[primal patrol]

AM is in a position where mclaren would've wanted to be

[unreal pivot]

They are in a position everyone wants to be

[warm pewter]

Except Red Bull

[civic fern]

or Mercedes. they aim for something higher

the rest of the field? yeah they'll be more than happy with P2

[short ether]

anyone know of a program that does fluid dynamics THAT ISNT BLENDER, so I can simulate an F1 car in a windsim?

[true pendant]

doubt they will be anywhere near p3 this season

[tall wyvern]

You can’t do this

a) blender isn’t a cfd program
b) it’s very complicated and you need to know what you’re doing
c) openfoam is free and open source, so you can try but it will take a lot of learning

[civic fern]

Star-CCM+

[short ether]

The only Actual CFD program i have access to is Autodesk CFD, But i cant even import a model into it, because for some reason it only takes in Stuff that was made on different autodesk platforms i think

[tall wyvern]

Try exporting as step?

[civic fern]

parasolids?

I'm not familiar with Autodesk, but why are you using Mesh Import?

Is that the only way to get a CAD model into the program?

the way solvers work (as far as I've seen) is that you feed in a Geometry model (pure CAD parts for compatible software families), parasolids, etc), and then it gets wrapped into a Mesh

solutions are performed on the Mesh, not the actual geometry model

for example this is what geometry would look like imported into Star-CCM+ (for those of you who are familiar, specifically after Parts are created for them and it's in the Geometry Scenes section, not the 3D CAD section)

This is what the resulting Mesh looks like for that car

so when you're using the Mesh Import function for a geometry import (STL), I don't know whether that's just how Autodesk works or if a different function should be used

[short ether]

this occurs

the model was created inside of blender, not fusion 360 or similar

[tall wyvern]

Oh yeah I didn’t see it said mesh import.

I don’t know what the workflow is for auto desk cfd but does it have a built in mesher?

What model are you using?

[short ether]

a model my friend had made

[tall wyvern]

You can’t mesh that.

You mesh the fluid domain, not the solid object(s).

Also a very complicated model to mesh.

[short ether]

oof

[civic fern]

ask him for a parasolid

import that as geometry

but yeah, a very complex model

what's your computer hardware?

specifically Memory and CPU are the most important

[short ether]

16GB memory and an AMD Ryzen 5 5600x CPU

[civic fern]

i think you'll need a lot more than 16 gb for a model like this, just so it doesn't crash during meshing

is it single stick 16 gb?

[civic fern]

basically when you mesh, you have a Base Size for every cell that you see here

a smaller base size will mean a finer, more accurate mesh with more cells

but it takes more computational power

and if your hardware can't handle a small base size, you need to increase it. and at some point, it will be so big that the data you would get from Running a mesh that big will be useless

because it's too coarse to capture the airflow accurately

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu0ISwKtr8Y&t=223s

this is a pretty good Intro to CFD based on a Formula SAE car. it uses STAR-CCM+ but the process is relatively similar across other solvers

my team no longer uses that template (we've outgrown it and made our own) but it was really helpful when we were starting from absolute scratch

[short ether]

2 stick, but im planning on upgrading

[stable rivet]

Could u suggest a free cad software

[short ether]

Onshape, Tinkercad, Freecad

[short ether]

whats that?

[merry delta]

Freecad is buggy trash, and Tinkercad isn't really CAD

[short ether]

Onshape is pretty good, basic cloud copy of autodesk inventer but is still a good online program

[civic fern]

Neutral cad format

[short ether]

This might be off topic but I think some guys can help.

The GMA t.50 V12 has a 65° bank angle, and has a perfect harmonic balance without the need of extra weights on the conrod

My question is how does that make sense when the usual equation would be 720/12 = 60° angle?

@edgy anchor

[edgy anchor]

Ferrari to the same, and have done since the 90's with their F1 engines

I'm not sure what the goal is with a 5° offset, but 6's/12's are very well balanced on their own that they can be thrown way out with bank angles and still be fine

As each bank is harmonically stable

Afaik the only thing you really need to worry about if you've manufactured everything correctly is Torsional issues due to length

F1 used 60, 65, 70, 75, 80 and 180° V angles for V12's so

[short ether]

Yeah

[short ether]

Meaning one part of a camshaft is spinning faster than another?

[edgy anchor]

Yeah, the crank or cam is twisting significantly from the pulses then twisting the other way from pulses on the other side, creating vibrations

[short ether]

How would that be resolved?

[edgy anchor]

The typical thing for V16's and the Flat 12's Porsches ran was to drive the engine from the centre

To a Layshaft that raises the height of the Clutch above the crank, so the length at where things twist from is halved

https://primotipo.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/brm-v16-crank.jpg

https://canepa.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Porsche-917-engine-002-1024x684.jpg

[short ether]

Wow.

Testarossa has this?

[edgy anchor]

https://www.scuderiacarparts.com/images/diagrams/ferrari/4FEARYJVX5CLXNALLUPH.gif

No

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3d/a5/7a/3da57ad62a356f86299c71ffd526fe49.jpg

Both Alfa and Ferrari seem to drive their engines more typically

[short ether]

Cool stuff

[short ether]

Why doesn’t Mercedes need to use a huge radiator on top of their sidepod?

RB have a huge ass radiator mounted on the air box

It is because Merc run w/a intercooling so can afford smaller setups?

@edgy anchor

How does Merc cool their gearbox?

[edgy anchor]

W/a meaning?

Gearbox coolers are likely in the top airbox

[short ether]

Water to air

[edgy anchor]

https://motorsport.tech/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/MT_Cooling_radiators.jpg

[short ether]

Im just interested why RB has that huge radiator and Merc doesn’t

[edgy anchor]

That's 2 radiators on RB's

2?

3?

Something

[short ether]

4?

Do they mount it there because they run air to air sidepods?

It’s very non traditional

[edgy anchor]

They'll all be to water

[ashen venture]

what was the issue with charles leclerc's car?

[unreal pivot]

When

[ashen venture]

He had to replace something which got him a grid pen

[unreal pivot]

he changed his control electronics and it’s his 3rd out of 2 allowed per season

[ashen venture]

nice

[real sandal]

.sessions

[terse hamlet]

they has issues with their original CE during the weekend at Bahrain so replaced it pre race, which then went on to cause his DNF

[thick robin]

I remember a while back the penalties used to stack up when you took more and more

Mexico 2018 I think vandoorne got like a 65 place grid penalty lmao

[unreal pivot]

Yeah I reckon it’s good they changed it coz that’s basically just a 21 place pen

[short ether]

Is RedBull trick for higher top speed similar to Mercedes 2021 rear heave spring trick, stalling the diffusor?

Did the new suspension regs cover up that trick too?

@edgy anchor

[short ether]

@tall wyvern

[edgy anchor]

Sorry idk, suspension isn't my strong suit, and I thought that was banned

[short ether]

Maybe just the floor

But a lot of people are saying suspension. Idk how because the rules are much simpler

No hydraulic springs allowed

Also wouldn’t the diffuser stalling with these regs be quite dangerous mid corner, with most the downforce coming from the floor?

I’m thinking into copse. Surely it’s not a stalled diffuser that is the performance gain for RedBull?
@tall wyvern

[tall wyvern]

It’s banned because you can’t have automatic ride height adjustment anymore.

The diffuser stall is almost a poor description, the big vortices inside the diffuser burst which dumps some of the floor load (but not all).

[amber kraken]

The Aston vs the Ferrari https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF1JZ3qNcps

Now I wonder how fast the AMR23 is going to be at Melbourne next week

[tepid plover]

Alonso win 💪

[vagrant dust]

what stops Merc from doing a total rework of the car and make a RB19B

or atleast something similar (not like pink mercedes)

[coral glade]

Cost cap

Time

[vagrant dust]

ah

yeah dumb question

[merry delta]

also, the engine is packaged differently to RB

and of course, there's more to it than that, but I digress

[short ether]

A lot of the RB19 performance is in the suspension/underfloor which we can’t see so it’s not easy to just copy and paste their performance

[short ether]

So vortices burst = no porpoising? Since only some load

https://www.gtisoft.com/wp-content/uploads/publication/Renault-FiringOrder.pdf

So Renault also used a “split” crank with 5 on each side? Driven from the centre?

[deft burrow]

You don’t need to, RB’s concept is among the easiest to understand, that’s how Aston Martin made such a significant jump

[amber kraken]

Did Max ever hit the throttle and spun the rears mid spin at Hungary last year? Because I know some drivers, in both F1 and other Motorsports, do blip the throttle to get that extra bit of rotation to correct the cars' spins

[opaque mason]

He was warming the tires

[tepid plover]

He was just checking the rear to see if charles was still there

[rocky umbra]

Btw guys this is probably a sim racing related question but how do you tell a car is understeery and it's not just you forcing a car into a corner at a much higher speed

[agile raven]

usually you can feel it while driving. If there car doesn't turn in the way it should then it is understeering

[rocky umbra]

Yes but at times you can knowingly induce understeer on a car that doesn't necessarily understeer by approaching a corner way too fast right?

Does that necessarily imply the car is understeery

[short ether]

That is just someone’s driving style, applying too much lock on the wheel where the front wheels can’t bear

[short ether]

Yes

[rocky umbra]

Oh

[short ether]

If you’re going too fast into a corner you will usually be way off line and into the gravel

[rocky umbra]

Ya

[short ether]

If you understeer you’ll probably only just be slightly off line, lacking mechanical rotation

[rocky umbra]

Oh

I get it now

[short ether]

Watch an onboard of someone else on ytube of a track you’re concerned about, and see how they take the corners

That might help

[rocky umbra]

Ok I will

And in an oversteer car

The car has a tendency to spin if you enter the corner too fast?

[short ether]

Definitely

Understeer means the balance isn’t how you want it, with the 4 wheels.

[rocky umbra]

Right

[short ether]

If you go too fast and continue steering you will continue under steering into a barrier

[rocky umbra]

Understeer is less grip in front wheels and oversteer less grip in rear wheels

I think

[short ether]

Exactly

[rocky umbra]

Ye

Also the right was to brake

Is to brake as late and hard as you possibly can

Right?

I try to brake as late and hard as possible before entering the apex but the moment I release the brake fully, the car is imbalanced

[short ether]

Brake earlier.
Latest braker ≠ quickest driver

It’s all about momentum, and keeping a strong balance throughout the lap, as you said

Watch some onboards on YouTube, and see their braking.
But brake 10m earlier, and try be smooth in lifting off the pedals

[rocky umbra]

So I should brake early enough to be able to turn the car smoothly enough into apex

[short ether]

Yes

If you brake late but miss the apex then that’s a lot of time gone

[rocky umbra]

Ya

[short ether]

And it will carry into the next corners

[rocky umbra]

Ya since tyres get overheated I think

So temporarily lesser grip till they cool down

[short ether]

You just need that feel to carry the momentum around each corner. That doesn’t mean braking latest

Some corners you want to also not brake as hard, etc.

[rocky umbra]

Oh

So braking hardest isn't always the answer

[short ether]

Correct

Depending on car of course

[rocky umbra]

Ya

[short ether]

With sim racing, you don’t need to brake hard

Since it’s a sim

[rocky umbra]

Hmm

[short ether]

This might be the wrong channel

[rocky umbra]

Uhh

Where do I head to then

Because someone told me to ask here

[short ether]

Check dm

[agile raven]

#f1-games

[tall wyvern]

Vortices bursting is (part of) what causes the porpoising, they burst, the car rises, they reform.

[tall wyvern]

The easiest definition is that you have to apply more steering angle at greater speed to keep the same turn radius for an under steering car and vice versa

A neutral car will keep the same turn radius with the same steering angle with more or less speed because the slip angle changes so you get more turning force.

[idle oasis]

Not sure if this is the best place to put this or in #f1-hq-photos-and-videos

Grosjean’s chassis and steering wheel after his big crash in Bahrain 2020 found at the F1 Exhibition in Madrid (I think Madrid)

[stark adder]

really shows how far we've come with safety

[snow hawk]

little to no damage what do you mean

[stark adder]

he didn't say that?

[idle oasis]

He’s being sarcastic

[stark adder]

christ i'm dumb

[idle oasis]

It’s fine

[stark adder]

apologies

[idle oasis]

I’m dumber for still supporting McLaren but here we are

[blazing saffron]

you're not alone 😔

[fast onyx]

still faster than the w14

[drowsy nacelle]

XD

[short ether]

What year do u think this pu is?

@edgy anchor

[coral glade]

2021 ferrari?

[short ether]

It’s Merc

[coral glade]

Oh it is I didn't zoom in

Mb

[short ether]

Found out

It’s the 2019 engine

[tall wyvern]

It says that in the bottom right

[short ether]

Yes

[sweet tree]

would be a shame if someone knocked it over

[coral glade]

Whoops! 🤭 Accidentally knocked over your 20 million dollar engine 😮 ❗ ❗ I'm such a Libra ♎ ♎ 🤭

[sweet tree]

lmfao

[edgy anchor]

It does say 2019

[unreal pivot]

Anyone know what the things on the floor are?

[jade robin]

I’m not sure but I think it might be to track how quick the pit stops were

[lavish stump]

hey guys, this is going to sound a little odd but I’m doing a project right now about biofuels and what part they can play in todays automotive market and motorsports, I want to compare the V10 era power output, fuel flow rate, and consumption to the V6/Turbo Era, I can’t find much on the V10 era, is anybody able to help me out here?

[edgy anchor]

V10 cars tended to have fuel cells around 145-160L/110-125kg~, as refuelling was allowed but fuel cell size wasn't restricted like it was in the 80's, using the video footage of races like Japan 2005, it seems like mpg was estimated to be around 3mpg us/3.6mpg imp

With fuel flow into the cellbeing limited to 12L/sec

[lavish stump]

Awesome man, thanks. Now I have some info to dive deeper into.

Cheers

[edgy anchor]

A man after my own heart

Muh... Muh renewable combustible heart

[lavish stump]

think of it as another v10 era coming

[edgy anchor]

That's what I make docs for at home for the past... Oh it's been 7 years...

It's been 7 years

[amber kraken]

Michael Schumacher inspired driving style + A rear end downforce orientated car = Prime Seb Vettel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C58_Fb6FpFw

Also, I wonder how many drivers prefers to have an F1 car with a more grippy front end and a more sliding back end

[nimble marten]

actually quite a lot

max comes to my mind

red bull always had a pointy front end

[civic fern]

eh

Michael Schumacher set his cars up in a similar way to what Max Verstappen currently does (as well as Charles Leclerc and Kimi Raikkonen actually)

100% front end and then uses skill to control rear end sliding

Sebastian Vettel was completely different. he prefers planted rear ends so he can floor it on the exits harder and earlier. Newey's exhaust blown aero (more throttle = more downforce = more grip) really takes advantage of this counter-intuitive style, and it's part of why he struggled after they were banned

is it an inherently faster style? depends on the cars above anything else. i don't think a conclusion for whether oversteer is inherently faster than understeer can even be proven

for example, both Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso prefer understeer and are living proof it works

[vestal depot]

As a sim racing driver that's always had a tendency to have heavier inputs on steering, throttle and breaking, I perhaps naturally have a driving style very similar to Sebastian Vettel as a pointy front end is more prone to oversteer which is easier to handle when you're lighter on the controls.

[amber kraken]

(Insert Red Bull Blown Diffuser growl here)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGuDD_el6g4

[rocky umbra]

Hello guys I may be asking a stupid question but it seems that I am braking much harder when not locking up the wheels while slamming the brakes, why so?

[edgy anchor]

What do you mean, sorry?

[teal solstice]

How does a wave track differential work

[modest solstice]

Because you Will be using 100% of The tires grip

[rocky umbra]

What I mean is, the car seems to decelerate faster when I brake without locking up the tyres, as opposed to slamming the brakes 100% resulting in a Tyre lockup

[tall wyvern]

cars get peak grip at around 20% slip, which is when the tyres are moving 20% faster/slower than the road. at 100% you're just sliding and there's very little grip

[paper wing]

Congrats @tall wyvern, you're now on lap 10

[drowsy nacelle]

Static coefficient of friction is higher than the kinetic/ slidingcoefficient of friction.

Multiply that by the normal reaction to get max frictional force.

Which should answer your question, if you are aware about how this frictional force or grip limits the acceleration/ declaration of any car.

Also check out how ABS works, might help you understand why slamming the brakes is not the right way to brake hard.

[tall wyvern]

That’s a gigantic (and misleading) oversimplification. To the right of the peak is what you call kinetic, and as you can see it’s higher than almost all of the static part (left of the peak).

[rocky umbra]

So basically braking without locking up is the fastest way to decelerate

[edgy anchor]

Yes

Other than getting a tiny amount of slip of 12%

[drowsy nacelle]

Thanks for your feedback, but it has now left me wondering how it is misleading.

Oh, from the graph, I get it

Or do I?

No I don't lol

[drowsy nacelle]

Why is the graph on the left side called static if it still involves slipping? And should 0% slip = 0% braking or driving force?

Left side of the peak*

Also is ABS in actual Passenger Vehicles optimised for optimum slip or just to prevent lock up?

[short ether]

It's not optimized for slip, it's optimized for preventing lockup, but they still have a certain amnt of slip js to keep the car stable and acc controllable

[tall wyvern]

Wrong, it is optimised for slip ratio specifically, to stay around the peak of that graph.

[short ether]

A passenger vehicle?

Good to know then thanks

Sorry def got the info wrong 😭

[tall wyvern]

Tyres are a weird one because it’s not a piece of rubber being pushed along the ground, it’s new pieces of rubber continuously replacing the rubber which currently makes up the contact patch.

So below the peak, the contact patch is within the region of static friction. Above the peak, it’s started to slide as it comes down. What makes matters even more confusing is that as you go faster, the new rubber rolling into the contact patch has a lot more momentum so you get a much larger impact into the ground which slides further.

[tall wyvern]

All vehicles, they continuously read the tyre rotation speeds and compare to the road speed, and can give more or less pressure to keep every tyre at the best slip ratio. The difference between 95% slip (not locked) and 100% (locked) isn’t massive, so why not just aim for the peak the whole time?

[short ether]

So does that mean that locked and unlocked = almost the same deceleration rate

[tall wyvern]

Locked just means 100% slip ratio, anywhere up there is bad.

[short ether]

ah alr

thanks 👍

[tall wyvern]

Same with traction control, which does the same but for the left graph

[amber kraken]

Is this also have to do with George's driving style?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-TZVnj7KwM

[drowsy nacelle]

Follow up question, how will a vehicle measure road speed. Isn't that almost always a function of tire roll? And if it is through GPS, will not the possible lag risk the driver / ABS actuation?

[drowsy nacelle]

Ah, but this new rubber with additional momentum, won't the impact be limited by the max frictional force the grip can cater to? I guess the ceiling will be higher in actual use cases for competitive racing.

[cold garnet]

Does being physically fitter affect one’s F1 laptime?

[severe knoll]

not necessarily

it'll probably reduce it by a couple milliseconds or more

there is a maximum weight though

[cold garnet]

I mean in karting when i brake and turn i dont 100% focus on the corner since my body is getting pushed around and reducing that would mean me being physically fitter i think so maybe its kinda the same with F1

Ofc you dont get pushed

In f1

But somehow if one was to handle the G force better then he would focus more on the corners like the forces werent there unless all drivers dont care about the g force

And are used to it

But i wish this sport was more physically competitive

[edgy anchor]

In a purely physical sense, probably not, other than maybe your thigh strength to smash the brakes, as they have power steering. However that idea only factors over maybe a lap

One's neck needs to be huge

That was the big pioneering trail that Michael schumacher blazed with his F1 career was his militant approach to fitness and checking his blood oxygen levels were as closely matched to samples before sessions as after, so he wouldn't be affected by rates of attrition that'd knock out other drivers

Nigel Mansell said about Spa 1992 who is this machine with not even a bead of sweat on his brow?

[tall wyvern]

Racing tyres have really high hysteresis, which is a kind of memory of previous state. If you push into a road tyre rubber, it springs back immediately. If you push into racing rubber, it leaves in imprint of your finger that slowly comes back out. This means the behaviour of the tyre with regards to physical movement of the rubber itself depends on the previous state, so when the leading edge hits the road as it rolls into the contact patch, the momentum energy is absorbed into the rubber.

There’s a book called the racing and high performance tyre by Paul Haney that you can read which is really good for this.

[ancient lodge]

yep, it's in Madrid

[stray wraith]

Not being fit would be a hinderance but being fit isn’t really what makes a guy good yea

I think its the mental aspect that makes guys like lewis max schumi a cut above

Theyre the guys who IMO need/needed to do the least amount if inputs to drive in the modern era, thats where they make the time

[plush meteor]

god bless giorgio piola

[plush panther]

Slightly longer wheelbase? Interesting

[zinc bison]

Why do f2 cars pop

[nocturne zodiac]

ELI5 What in the world just happened with Checo’s breaks and why they couldn’t fix them? 😭

[short edge]

Yeah I was wondering the same

I heard it was a brake bias sofware issue

So the brakes weren’t correctly programmed for each turn in the circuit

And therefore it was much more easier to lock the wheels*

[ancient scaffold]

Can someone please explain to me (in somewhat simple terms) why car performance can vary between circuits, such as Aston being better than Merc in Jeddah but it being the other way round in Melbourne

[short edge]

So many factors

Speed of the circuit

Some are more aerodynamic demanding

More air density

Less air density

Some are more tyre demanding

Temperature which is related with tyres

[ancient scaffold]

Apologies I don't think I worded my question well (or maybe the answer is more different to what I expected). I mean how do different teams have better performance than others and vice versa at different circuits e.g McLaren having a car able to fight for a win at Monza 2021 but not really having that anywhere else that season

[silent heron]

He did answer your question to be honest. The environmental factors, paired with the track requirements affect some cars more than others.

Some cars are more suited to high downforce tracks while others are more aerodynamically efficient, so they perform better at tracks like Monza

Take Mercedes almost fighting for a win in Zandvoort because when all cars were running maximum downforce. The Mercedes seemed to be the one losing the least straight line speed and gaining a lot of downforce compared to a low downforce setup vs other cars losing a lot when running higher downforce wings.

What I mean is that Mercedes was closer to rivals last year with a higher downforce car for a series of factors. If you want to know the factors (not simple terms) you'll need someone else to answer that.

[short edge]

Im sorry think I my answer was unclear

[short edge]

but this guy really explained it 10x better 👍

[short ether]

Hey f1 big brainers

Gasly might get banned

Can someone else drive his car in his place ?

[short ether]

Why

[calm burrow]

12 penalty points accumulated

[short ether]

dam gg

[ancient scaffold]

Cheers

[final dust]

Update: He will not
#f1｜media message

[coral glade]

Yep, probably Doohan

[short ether]

Oh okay good

[silent harness]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5mOkkEV7tg

what the……

[merry delta]

yeah, efficient chassis design and wing usage

[tepid plover]

no wonder why max pulled fricking 2 seconds on lewis the moment he overtook him

[jolly turret]

that overtake was wild

[civic fern]

it's not a particularly new concept

instead of thinking about the rear wing as it's own thing, imagine the entire rear of the car as the "rear aero zone"

in this case, the diffuser flow interacts with and "extended" by the beam wing, which is further extended by the rear wing

it's how the 2009 - 2013 cars worked, and sort of what Sebastian Vettel struggled after. the removal of the beam wing in 2014 as the "middle" step made it difficult for the diffuser flow to interact with the high rear wing, and downforce at the rear really went down the drain

[tall wyvern]

Floor load adds front %, not rear. Powering up the diffuser shifts balance forwards.

[edgy anchor]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Jordan_191_1991_Formula1_Racer_Michael_Schumacher_Jordan_7UP_Racing_LRear_Wing_SATM_05June2013_(14620754383).jpg/1024px-Jordan_191_1991_Formula1_Racer_Michael_Schumacher_Jordan_7UP_Racing_LRear_Wing_SATM_05June2013_(14620754383).jpg

It's a reason this exists

Stacked elements will increase the efficiency of the others

[tall wyvern]

not stacked ontop of each other they don't, stacked behind and slightly above, yes, but not on top of

[novel fog]

I was told I might find some people with an aero/engineering background in here? If there is, I have a question about a project I’m involved in.

[drowsy nacelle]

I would have guessed that the floor adds to both front and rear since it is in the middle?

[amber kraken]

Look at the RB18's speed. Granted, it did have the additional DRS section in the new curve https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7WrUUtZtoo

Which is surprising if you consider that the 2021 RB16B was still a tad bit faster than the 2022 RB18. Although, the 2021 reg cars never raced at Albert Park. Wonder what times the 2021 cars would have clocked at the Park https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II8FohycCLI

[tall wyvern]

The main suction is much further ahead than the centre, because the air loses energy as it travels under the floor. I’ll find a picture.

[drowsy nacelle]

Intriguing

[novel lark]

Fine I'll do it

but just this time

[merry delta]

I wonder why many teams have moved to removing the slot gap on the first element of the front wing

[broken trail]

how fast are super formula cars? I've heard they are pretty fast

[merry delta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-K7LXkekRE
here's a video of a comparison from Suzuka

[broken trail]

damn, pretty fast, thanks!

faster than f2?

[merry delta]

I believe so

[broken trail]

thanks for sharing this to me

[merry delta]

you're welcome

[short ether]

thanks

alpine need you brother

[amber kraken]

Bloody hell, the pace difference. Not sure if this is accurate or not https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWge1PM26rc

[severe knoll]

probably a similar time to the 2022 ferrari

but i don't think pole would had happen

merc maybe would've taken pole there

again it's speculation so

[placid lynx]

what does it mean that australia was front limited and baku rear limited?

[low frost]

what motion marshalls wave flag in f1??

[silent heron]

It means that in a track like australia front tyres degrade faster, while in a track like baku rear tyres degrade faster.

[placid lynx]

why is that so ?

[tight radish]

Was mercedes getting rid of the barcelona 2022 pre-season testing sidepods just a case that the wind tunnel showed that the zero-sidepods were faster?

[short ether]

No Mercedes already told that concept like redbull and ferrari are more faster than zero-sidepods

And they told that the new concept is more faster than this concept on the wind tunnel

[tight radish]

But like im talking about 2022

[tight radish]

Then they switched from sidepods to zero-sidepods

@short ether

[short ether]

Idk why

I think they think the zero-sidepods were faster

[tight radish]

car looks so weird

with a sidepod

[silent heron]

Because of the track build. If a track has many high speed corners with heavy stress on tyres the front will degrade faster. If the corner has many 90 degrees corners with many traction zones, the rears will degrade faster.

[untold cloud]

RB16B Bargeboards where True work of art from Adrian Neweys

[hoary patrol]

Thats exactly what i was thinking and even then there is a difference betwee left and right front tyres, they degrade at different speeds depending on the heavy load they receive throughout corners

I dont know if its the same for rear tyres, i mean do they degrade equally?

[deft burrow]

Which funnily enough, Ferrari's concept has already reached it's limit.

[silent heron]

Rear tyres don’t degrade equally (left and right). I think it’s also due to loads on high speed corners (to a lesser extent) and other factors (maybe different rotation speed).

@hoary patrol ^

[silent heron]

<@&781898349006684170>

It got sent in every channel

[lofty orchid]

[hoary patrol]

See, it makes sense, but then when you lock the rear setup to have same rotation speeds then it could reduce deg right

Damm i wish i could understand more how arrodynamics work and how adrian can mKe such wonderful and dominating cars

[paper wing]

Congrats @hoary patrol, you're now on lap 5

[hoary patrol]

I wonder if you can learn that in surfshark

[silent heron]

Well that's separate from talking about differentials because this is mechanics and that's aerodynamics

[silent heron]

Well no. If you force both tyres to rotate at the same speed then you will have screeching of tyres, because they cover different distances, but you force them to rotate at the same speed. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong

I'm not really familiar with mechanics, but this is the most logical thing I can think of

[hoary patrol]

I see

[hoary patrol]

No i mean, its not related to aerodynamics at all, i just said that because it would be cool to understand the flow of air in the car and how affect speeds, cornering and such

And what would be the perfect design that could make the car not only faster in the straight but also on the corners