programmers-off-topic

[pastel umbra]

nope, we dont have elective courses here, at least not yet the first 2 years

so required

So getting everyone on board/excited is part of the challenge

[rotund violet]

Oh, but you said they don't get a grade. So you don't have to worry about the more hopeless cases.

[pastel umbra]

They just basically get a "unacceptable, acceptable, good" kinda grade for participation

[pastel umbra]

On one hand no, but on the other I do need to make sure they dont disrupt the rest of the class

But yeah I am super excited about doing all the fun stuff, and only a little stuck on making hte boring basic skills more fun

[rotund violet]

Sounds tricky. Typing and mousing aren't supposed to be fun, they're basic skills like arithmetic or writing (which I realize are also lacking in many zoomers, and more than a few millennials).

Some of the typing games were actually pretty effective at the teaching part, but still generally perceived as lame.

[pastel umbra]

Yeah, but math and language are courses they get grades for and need to pass to pass the year, so they dont have a choice xD

[rotund violet]

They can choose to fail. Unless you're in a school/region that's basically forbidden to fail anyone.

[pastel umbra]

They need a passing grade in each course in order to progress to the next year. If they dont, they get held back a year

So they have to repeat the whole year again

[rotund violet]

Right, every school officially does that, except there's often a lot of not-so-official rules about how often that can happen or to whom.

If yours doesn't, you're lucky.

[cyan shadow]

I knew a girl who got held back two years in a row, poor thing

[safe dragon]

schools here's generally have a maximum number of failing grades to pass a year

depending on the severity of the failing grade

so you can still pass with only a failing grade in German or something

in uni you just gotta pass the requirements for the first year and then you can take 23 years for all they care as long as you pay your tuition

after 10 years without a degree to show for it you have to pay back the tuition the government funded for you though... which is like 80% of the tuition cost

[cyan shadow]

if I fall behind on my grades during my master's I run the risk of being sent back to India, apparently

[safe dragon]

oh that's fun

[cyan shadow]

that's after I pay almost 20k euros for my damn degree upfront, mind

[rotund violet]

That's a little unusual - it's really just if you fall behind, as opposed to totally dropping out? 'Cause dropping out definitely would invalidate a visa.

Does the school have a policy where you're dropped from the program under those conditions?

[cyan shadow]

It's if I don't meet my credit requirements in time, iirc

[rotund violet]

(Re: the upfront cost, yeah that part's ridiculous, but I don't see it changing until people stop treating college as some immensely high-status thing.)

Ok, so it's sort of a chain of events - if you don't finish in time, the school drops you automatically, and by getting dropped, you lose your visa. Fun times.

[cyan shadow]

So the thing is - this is a dutch uni. I'm from India. All unis milk foreign students for what they're worth no matter where you are unless free education also extends to us, so that's... fun.

yeah, the uni doesn't actually drop you for not finishing in time, but the dutch government has some rules for foreign students, iirc

[rotund violet]

Oh interesting. And here I thought it was just the US universities charging outrageous tuitions subsidized by non-dischargable government loans.

[cyan shadow]

my foreign classmates during my undergrad were paying at least 5x what I was, so it's definitely not a US exlusive thing

[pastel umbra]

Oh, which uni are you going to, if you dont mind me asking?

[cyan shadow]

I don't want to disclose that in this server, sorry 😅

[pastel umbra]

Ah, I understand. Its just I have a few friends from india also and they told me some stuff about their experiences, so I was wondering how that is for you where you are going

Would you mind if I send you a dm about it? If you dont want me to I wont ofcourse, I just have a very curious nature and always think it wont hurt to ask

Sorry if my question bothers you!

[cyan shadow]

My dms are currently closed, I'm afraid, but I haven't actually started my program yet - I fly out in a couple weeks

[pastel umbra]

Ah, I hope the country treats you well then! Were you able to find housing easily enough? Cause there is a big shortage going on right now

lots of foreign students and expats struggeling with it atm

[rain apex]

i think most colleges do this partly cus they cant get tax cuts n the like for foreign students

[cyan shadow]

I did find housing! I'm worried about what'll happen when my lease ends, though

[pastel umbra]

What do you mean?

[cyan shadow]

mine was a private university run as a minority institution - they don't pay taxes anyway iirc

[rain apex]

and cus foreign kids are rich and exploitable

[cyan shadow]

My lease ends a month before my program does and I won't be able to renew, so I'll have to find something else for that one month

[rain apex]

in NA the public unis have domestic vs international pricing while private just makes u pay $$$$ regardless

[pastel umbra]

In the netherlands the costs for foreign students are much higher than native ones, because we get heavy subsidies that arent available for foreign students

[cyan shadow]

private unis really depend when it comes to costs for local students here, but public ones are generally very affordable even for foreigners

[pastel umbra]

Oh no, that sounds quite stressful. If you need any help, please let me know. I have quite a few contacts here (also depends a bit on where approx you are going ofcourse) so I might be able to help if needed.

[cyan shadow]

thank you for the offer!

I'm not completely on my own - I have multiple friends and some connections there already, so I should be okay, hopefully

[pastel umbra]

And In general, if there is anything you need help with (even if its translation of general info, you dont need to disclose any personal information if you dont want to) you can always ask 🙂

[pastel umbra]

Happy to hear that! I know enough people who came here completely alone, and I know that can be quite scary for some people

[cyan shadow]

I've been to the Netherlands before for a summer school program, so I managed to make some connections then, and my parents have friends with folk there - Indians are everywhere, luckily

[pastel umbra]

And hey, the tip I can give you for when you come here, is go visit Madurodam. The best way to see the whole of the netherlands in a few hours haha

[cyan shadow]

That's

YOU KNOW SOMETHING FUNNY

I was in Den Haag for summer school

[pastel umbra]

(in case you didnt know, madurodam is the miniature version of the netherlands haha)

[cyan shadow]

Every damn day I passed by Madurodam not knowing what it was until someone told me it wasn't just some kinda convention centre

and by then I'd come back home

[pastel umbra]

Its amazing!

[cyan shadow]

I'll definitely be checking it out this time

[pastel umbra]

All friends I have that are visiting from other countries I send there

Cause its the best way to see the most of the country in a short amount of time xD

[cyan shadow]

hehe

I did see a few things during my short summer program, but I intend to see more for sure

[pastel umbra]

And its close to me anyways (I live in the leiden region, so I see a yearly influx of leiden university students come and go

If you have not been to leiden yet, you should visit

[cyan shadow]

oh yeah, den haag's like half an hour away, isn't it

[pastel umbra]

Jup

[cyan shadow]

I do plan to visit!

[pastel umbra]

Its like amsterdam but more cosy and less tourists and stuff

Small canals and streets, cute bridges

But still everything you need

and because of all the students and international students, a very nice vibe too

[cyan shadow]

Alright, vs code has been installed on my new laptop, looking to maybe get some extensions to help me with readability - any recommendations? I have prettier for now

[pliant snow]

I think rainbow braces is built-in now?

if not, that

[safe dragon]

I mean, dutch universities are fairly affordable for anyone in the EU and you shouldn’t necessarily need a loan at all. It’s 2k a year in tuition for any university and you get a minimum of around 300 euros a month from the government for simply being in university(you often get more but above that minimum it depends on the total income of your parents)

the only reason the cost is so high for quill is because they’re outside from outside the EU and thus gets zero government help in paying for it

student loans are still a thing. A student loan can be an appealing option to be able to pay for everything while you study instead of needing an income on the side (which has its restrictions if you’re registered as a fulltime student)

[cyan shadow]

(gotta mention that I'm very fortunate to have my parents funding my studies, and they did so without a loan, it was just a massive jump in cost compared to my undergrad)

[cyan shadow]

[safe dragon]

worst case you could probably crash on my couch too if it comes down to it. Idk what uni you ended up going to but I’m a fairly quick train ride away from any of the randstad ones

[cyan shadow]

Thanks crumble

Appreciate it!

[safe dragon]

I’m sure you’ll find people during the degree anyway who’d let you stay there if need be

[cyan shadow]

Yeah

I have three roommates, hopefully I'll get along with them well enough to just find another place with them

I'm mildly afraid I won't since they're undergrads and much younger than me, but they seem nice - we've all spoken on WhatsApp and have a group chat - so I'm keeping an open mind

[shrewd grail]

that's very positive good luck

[sand frost]

There’s also airbnbs and such, potentially

When I had a lease up a week before my internship ended, that’s what I did

A month is a bit harder but probably possible?

[rotund violet]

IOW it's still an outrageous tuition, just paid for by government subsidies; when foreign students apply, they get to see the real cost.

[safe dragon]

It’s gotta be paid one way or another I suppose. I do wonder what the cost would be if covering cost was the only objective. I mean dutch universities are already non-profits though they’re often caught not fully adhering to that

[rotund violet]

Aside from the epic inflation in the past few years, virtually every product and service becomes less expensive to the consumer over time; the main sectors that don't are just coincidentally the ones that have near zero cost transparency: medicine and academia.

An extended rant on that is no doubt going to be too off-topic even for the off-topic channel, so feel free to draw your conclusions/make your own arguments.

(I will just clarify one thing: I don't believe that individuals in the system, like professors and some of the admin staff, are doing anything sketchy; the system as a whole is another story.)

[gaunt wadi]

you can stay with me but also you have to bring two dogs with you

[cyan shadow]

I have no dogs but I have a blahaj

[upbeat turtle]

W0t's a blahaj?

Is that even legal in Norway?

[upbeat turtle]

No. That's clearly a tiburón.

[lethal walrus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blåhaj

[cyan shadow]

[pliant snow]

blahaj is illegal in norway

[cyan shadow]

shonk.

[upbeat turtle]

But, can you program a Blåhaj??

[latent bough]

probably

[upbeat turtle]

MechaBlåhaj!

[gaunt wadi]

blahaj is a plus but two dogs are still required

i have the bear from ikea and i love it, it's huge and soft and cuddly

djungelskog

look at him he's djungelskogging all over the place

the very definition of friend shaped

[modest steppe]

HIM

[safe dragon]

saw djungelskog live at an ikea

truly friend shaped

[cyan shadow]

himb...

[safe dragon]

lmao

[cyan shadow]

get him, crumble

you can use him as a rubber duck

[safe dragon]

a big rubber duck

[cyan shadow]

djungelskog your code

[safe dragon]

I’ll be two times as productive

[cyan shadow]

[upbeat turtle]

Never ever attempt to write code without a djungelskogger.

[cinder karma]

Whoever wrote python packaginggggggggg

Ahhhhhhhhhhh

[upbeat turtle]

What about Rusty Crates?

[pliant snow]

try out that new uv thing

[cinder karma]

Aquo, I did and I'm now sunburned

(I kid I kid I was just gardening)

[upbeat turtle]

Jajajajajaja

[crystal wren]

That's got fast inverse square root energy to it.

[cinder karma]

No

Fast inverse square root is a clever hack

This is just someone being a jerk

[rotund violet]

-funsafe-math-optimizations are neither fun nor safe.

[pastel umbra]

Are they math optimizations though?

[rotund violet]

Only if you want to optimize service outages.

[ivory shadow]

Of course they're not fun or safe that's why there's a little minus sign in front

[pastel umbra]

Optimizing outages? That sounds.. Dubious

[rotund violet]

Ah, that's right. "Oh, you wanted the anti-polio shots."

Next time use +funsafe and it'll all be good.

[ivory shadow]

Exactly.

[fading kernel]

Hello! New here so not sure where I'm supposed to ask this. How do I find game seeds with cropfairy night events on multiple days of my choosing in different seasons? On sunny days? I know absolutly nothing about coding. Should I open some file in spesific program? Where do I serch and how? I`m completly lost.

[pliant snow]

#making-mods-general I think would be the place to ask, they'll have a better idea

[cinder karma]

Oh god

I saw that blog post too

[fading kernel]

I was actually little bit scared to ask there. But you`re probably wright. Thanks.

[pliant snow]

They (mostly) don't bite

[safe dragon]

probably

[cinder karma]

I swear

If I encounter another 404 in this fucjing documentation I will throw something

[safe dragon]

throw a 404

[cinder karma]

My work laptop is asking me if I planned a summer vacation yet

Maybe I should show this to my boss

[safe dragon]

a sign

[devout vault]

More time for knitting

[cinder karma]

US just passed China in Olympic medals

[pliant snow]

in gold medals? Last I looked the US had like 30+ more total medals

[cinder karma]

Oui!!!!

[cinder karma]

@devout trellis

We okay with things like this?

[cyan shadow]

(We're not, no)

[cinder karma]

(For clarity, it was some sort of test game, not the Olympics)

[supple ether]

figured out how to open a project in VS from terminal and now I'm debating writing a batch script to do project setup for stardew mods
on the other hand I don't have github CLI installed, so I'd still have to manually create remotes, and it's probably a lot more useful to just make a dotnet template

[devout vault]

I was just about to suggest a dotnet template as I started reading your message and then I got to the end

[rain apex]

i think it's still useful to do up to git init

[devout vault]

I should finish reading things before I start typing

[rain apex]

its nice to version stuff even if u dunno if its gonna be public

[supple ether]

maybe if I make a good template I can publish it as a nuget package

I know there's a nuget for an ancient 1.4 mod template floating around out there

although I think that one is vs-specific anyways

[cinder karma]

I really need to get better at gitlab

Lol

[rain apex]

wait can nuget packages add whole new source files

i thought u were gonna make a dotnet new template

to use over the Class Library one mentioned in getting started

[fleet wren]

a published template would be nice, better than my current approach of "cp -r an existing folder and sed every reference"

[cinder karma]

Do a common csproj lol

[supple ether]

I am

also I'm just now remembering that vs templates are technically extensions and that was a separate system from nuget

I think there is a way to publish templates but I'll have to do some research to figure out how that works

oh according to ms docs you can distribute templates via nuget. perfect!

[rain apex]

exciting

[ivory shadow]

(I should probably finish my Stardew mod template.)

Was workin on something at https://github.com/KhloeLeclair/StardewTemplates but then I got distracted, and lately I've just been quietly poking at Almanac and doing my day job.

[rotund violet]

Don't make me come over there.

[devout vault]

Using nullable reference types.
ewwww (I might like it if I tried it for normal stuff, but with Stardew I don't think I would)

[rotund violet]

Huh? Aren't nullable reference types pretty standard by now?

I can't imagine not using them.

[devout vault]

First thing I do with a new project is disable them

Since basically all the C# I do is stardew

[rotund violet]

Why? You like NullReferenceExceptions?

[devout vault]

Skill issue /s

[ivory shadow]

Most of the C# I do is Stardew or Dalamud (FFXIV client mods). I can't stand not using nullable. Sure we don't have proper nullable annotations from the game but at least our own code + APIs can do things correctly.

[devout vault]

I still need to get to the new FFXIV expansion

[rotund violet]

Yeah, same. Just because you're working with a weak API doesn't mean you need to carry over all its problems.

[cinder karma]

🫂

[ivory shadow]

I'm about to close VS and log into XIV for raiding. Time for savage reclears and prog~

[cinder karma]

Enjoy fire festival 14!!!!!

Maybe I should try to go to rhinebeck

[devout vault]

I just like being lazy - I didn't mean to imply that not using nullable is a good thing

(Though I rarely run into NREs)

[ivory shadow]

That's odd to me. I view not using nullable as being more work since I have to think about nullable stuff instead of letting the editor do it for me.

[rain apex]

if you disable it then do you have to check == null every time

[rotund violet]

Nullable checks save time, in my experience. Debug time >>>>> dev time.

[devout vault]

I should at least enable it for my API file so people can copy paste and not worry about it

[ivory shadow]

Granted, you still need to think about nullable stuff whenever you're calling into the game's code, but depending on what you're doing that still saves a lot of work.

[ivory shadow]

#nullable enable is your friend. I do that for all my API files.

[rotund violet]

You should - I always use an annotated version of the GMCM.

Not that it's a huge deal to annotate it myself and then copy-paste that in all the other projects.

[ivory shadow]

Unrelated, but wow do I have a love/hate relationship with ImGui.

[lethal walrus]

My experience with imgui is failing horribly at installing it bc c++ is confusing

[ivory shadow]

Dalamud (FFXIV client mods) uses ImGui and like... it's fast to set up, but whew it ugly

[supple ether]

I tried making a stardew mod with imgui and gave up trying to wrangle the native component

[supple ether]

it doesn't have to be, depends on how it's configured by whoever is running it

though often that's not something you have control over

[ivory shadow]

All my ImGui stuff in 14 looks so very basic. Something like this

And the amount of code needed to generate something so basic is just... kinda ridiculous to me.

I wish they had embedded Qt or something instead.

[supple ether]

immediate mode guis do have a distinct advantage over conventional guis, which is especially useful in games and other real-time applications- there's no need to manually track and update state between the GUI and the data

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, it's definitely simple for very basic things.

[supple ether]

dear imgui in particular is also very, very fast

[rotund violet]

Eh, immediate-mode UIs are fast by virtue of having extremely limited layout capabilities, not because of any inherent efficiency with immediate mode.

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, the lack of layout stuff is killing me

[rotund violet]

Syncing data to a retained-mode UI sucks, but that's why there's MVVM, INotifyPropertyChanged and fancy data binding stuff.

[ivory shadow]

Needing to manually move a cursor around for every little thing that isn't either a table or "draw this on the next line" is really making me miss... everything.

[rotund violet]

Stardew's basically immediate-mode too, unless you build a retained mode over it. But maybe I'm making the wrong comparison there.

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, it can definitely be similar.

But at least in Stardew I already built some tools to make myself more comfy.

And theoretically one of the like seven people making UI libraries will release one sooner or later

[devout vault]

(Technically SpaceCore's UI stuff is public)

[rotund violet]

Well, if you count mine as a "release"...

Is SpaceCore also retained?

[devout vault]

I'm not sure what you mean by retained

It's normally internal and part of SpaceShared but with SpaceCore it compiles public and in the SpaceCore.UI namespace for people to use

[rotund violet]

UI is either immediate mode or retained mode. Immediate mode holds no state and has to recalculate layout on every frame. Retained mode... well, retains that information.

[devout vault]

Ah, yeah, the latter

[rotund violet]

Interesting. This is something specific to SpaceCore, or the stuff in SpaceShared that's also used in GMCM?

[devout vault]

It's also for GMCM. That's what I originally wrote it for

It's basically in SpaceShared so that GMCM can use it without a dependency

[rotund violet]

Ok, you're referring to the Table and Element stuff.

[devout vault]

Yeah

I realize that doesn't have nice auto-layout things though

But it does exist

[rotund violet]

Yes, so it is technically retained mode but it's also a bit of a one-shot deal - that's part of why I went off and made my own rather than keep using publicizer/reflection to poke holes in it.

Of course, it's got its own warts too. Perfection is hard. Kinda wish I could just use a flexbox library.

[ivory shadow]

I admit I have thought about trying to use Yoga or something in my own stuff.

[rotund violet]

Who else was working on them anyway, I think MIB? It's a (valid) running joke that people keep writing these but I'm not sure how many there really are.

I just don't know how to cleanly import something like that into a Stardew library. I mean, there are private assemblies but... yech.

The nature of the beast pretty much requires reinventing the wheel.

[ivory shadow]

But frankly, my main concern was about flowing rich content and just throwing flexbox at it wouldn't help with that.

[rotund violet]

Well, yeah; text layout is its own special subset that's different from any other kind.

Although it still helps to have it incorporated into a layout system so you can put things around the text.

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, my thing can handle that... a little. It's very "as much as I need for what I want to implement and not a thing more"

[rotund violet]

As we all are, no doubt. I can't promise I know what I'm doing, but hey, if you want to put in a feature request, I'll see what I can figure out.

I don't really how much time I'll spend in this area, long term. Next thing I wanted to add was some sort of markup system to avoid having to keep writing views.

But well, so many things that could be done, always a question of what's really going to be useful.

(We're probably getting off-off-topic, aren't we?)

[supple ether]

that's not at all what I said. I specified that dear imgui was fast, and that its speed was one reason that dear imgui in particular is so popular in games. I did not state any reason why, and made no allusions to immediate mode guis as a whole

[rotund violet]

I know you didn't say that. I said that.

[supple ether]

ah, sorry. I mistook it for a contradiction to what I said since it was immediately after. that's my bad

[rotund violet]

It is, indeed, extremely popular; though I see it being used most frequently for dev tools, gizmos and debug UIs rather than user-facing production game UI. (Not exclusively, of course, but it's really hard to build an entire menu system with imgui, doubly so if full-time designers are involved.)

[supple ether]

Yeah it doesn't have to be ugly, but it's certainly not pretty

and it's not really meant for the kind of bells-and-whistles stuff that you really want to have in a game UI

[rotund violet]

I will say that Unity's imgui is/was especially awful compared to better libraries like Dear. I'm not saying Dear isn't good or anything like that, it just has its purpose.

AFAIK the most popular in C++ land is Noesis. There's also Rive which is popular in some areas.

[supple ether]

honestly the only ui library I've ever used that I didn't completely hate was godot's, but even then, there's the problem of data binding

avalonia works reasonably well but it has so many weird little quirks, and the layout of the framework is very enterprise-y and overcomplicates simple projects

I should probably just learn c++ and try qt

[rotund violet]

Qt is fine. I guess. If I can choose any framework I want, I prefer anything supporting MVVM (like WPF/Avalonia).

[supple ether]

I get the point of MVVM, but it does feel like I'm writing everything three times, and there's some stuff that's just incredibly awkward to do, like opening dialogues/windows from the backend code

[rotund violet]

If we're talking about game UI specifically then that can be a different story. Terrible fit for an ECS. Bevy's trying to solve the problem; haven't quite threaded the needle yet. Or even gotten within 6 feet of the needle.

[supple ether]

xD

I admit I have not really used that many game engines, but my experience is that finding a good game ui engine is... really fucking hard

[rotund violet]

For anything else though - well, there are really two sides to any UI system. The first is how easy it is to get something relatively nice up and running relatively quickly. The second is how well that work survives into the expansion and maintenance phases. Those two are often in conflict.

[supple ether]

True, true

[rotund violet]

(Personally, I think Bevy is a fantastic game engine, it just doesn't have all the library and tooling bells and whistles that more mature products do)

[supple ether]

yeah honestly that's the main reason I haven't really tried it yet

that and my rust experience is basically nil

[rotund violet]

Anyway, when we write Stardew mods we just want to get something done and so dealing with a heavy UI framework that requires a lot of setup would be a waste of time. But in other game work where I might be constantly iterating on the UI, having a data model driving a very light templating system (whether it's a VM or ECS) is really amazingly helpful.

Bevy was actually my first Rust experience, and eventually I came to realize it's kind of its own little niche, it's not exactly "traditional" rust with its crazy dependency injection stuff.

Rust also interops with C++, though it's far from perfect.

[supple ether]

godot's system I like mainly for the box layout, visual editor, and theming system. what I don't like about it is that adding animations to it is often teeth-pulling

though I suppose ui animations are horrible in the majority of libraries

[rotund violet]

Heh, my most popular crate/project (which isn't saying much, like 2k downloads/15 stars) is exactly that.

[supple ether]

although unreal recently unveiled some motion design features, so that probably helps a lot if you're somebody who uses unreal

[supple ether]

oh?

[rotund violet]

https://github.com/focustense/mina

Never mind the prose, you can just scroll down to some of the examples.

[supple ether]

oh that's really nice, definitely starring that for later

[rotund violet]

UI animations are pretty badly neglected. Though I haven't worked on this project in like 3 years. I need to make some updates.

The main thing it's lacking (which 99% of animation libraries are also lacking) is FLIP.

[supple ether]

flip?

like a ping-pong animation mode?

[rotund violet]

lol, it's a mnemonic: First, Last, Invert, Play. It's a technique (the only one I know of) for animating a layout as opposed to just a transform, which not surprisingly is accomplished by translating that layout transition into a transform.

In a nutshell: to start an animation, you set the layout to the end of the animation, and then work backward to figure out what transforms are necessary to pull it back to where the layout currently is, and apply those transforms immediately, then back them out to get to the destination.

It is the only technique that works correctly with layout because it handles interruptions.

It's also hard to make a generalized implementation because it's very particular to whatever UI framework you happen to be using.

[supple ether]

oh, that would be very cool

[rotund violet]

(Maybe Godot has this. I don't know. I'm always hearing about the stuff Godot has. Godot has superfans.)

[supple ether]

I am a godot superfan. but it does not have built-in support for gui animations

it does have a "reset" animation track which might do that for animations in general?

[rotund violet]

Timelined animations are a different beast.

[supple ether]

IDK there's a bunch of super fancy animation features that I never use

[rotund violet]

The FLIP technique is meant to deal with arbitrary changes.

I've personally only seen it in some web frameworks. But, I haven't used every game engine or UI library out there.

And you can imagine why it's simpler to implement on the web, where there's the same standard DOM everywhere.

[supple ether]

I think I get it. you're setting the actual flow position to the new one immediately, creating an inverted transform, and then tweening it to basis

[rotund violet]

Yup - it's a simple enough concept, but can be hard to do in practice.

[supple ether]

I don't know of anything that does that, but it seems like a very streamlined way to add motion and character to a gui

yeeeaaah matrix math has never been my strong suit

[rotund violet]

The main reason to do it that way is (a) you can switch to an entirely new layout, like a totally different widget tree, and whatever is consistent between them will animate correctly, and (b) if the animation gets interrupted by a user action and needs to change mid-animation to a different scene, then the exact same technique applies to wherever the elements currently with virtually no changes whatsoever to the code.

It's not inherently more efficient than just setting (tweening) transforms on individual elements, but it is a lot more flexible.

[supple ether]

yeah, it solves a lot of problems I've had in the past

[rotund violet]

Ironically, Bevy UI may have made this nearly impossible to do by hijacking Bevy's own Transform system to mean something totally different in UI land. You actually cannot set transforms on UI elements, unless they've done something to fix that in recent versions.

[supple ether]

that's evil

[rotund violet]

Well, I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time.

You've got an existing ECS-based global transform system that works, and you've got a flexbox layout system that works, so... why not put the two together instead of inventing a third system?

But unfortunately the result has some far-reaching implications.

Actually a lot of frameworks do this sort of thing. WPF for example gets... upset if you try to mess with layout directly.

[safe dragon]

I believe they're working on it yeah

[cinder karma]

Fun part of working for a hardware company: replacing the ram on my work computer myself 😛

[rotund violet]

That doesn't seem so unusual. Unless it's, like, a RAM module you built yourself.

[safe dragon]

definitely sounds unusual

my IT department would murder me if I even tried to mess with the computers myself

let alone get and insert new ram sticks

[rotund violet]

Some years ago when I did an upgrade, I had to order the sticks through the company, but they couldn't be arsed to come actually install them. "You're engineers, you figure it out."

[pliant snow]

Ive moved drives around, but im not sure that was sanctioned

[gaunt wadi]

the spiciest thing I did was add custom firewall rules to disable some of the annoying company spysoftware

[pliant snow]

Thats not very cash money of you, employee 187462

[cinder karma]

Down with the imperial ||units||

[cinder karma]

Yeah, and I have to decide on a thickness in ounces

Don't ask lol

Engineering in America

[fleet wren]

I didn't know that, and after looking it up, I wish I hadn't

[pliant snow]

tf is a thickness is ounces

[rotund violet]

Amount used to cover a set surface area to that thickness. Which, technically is a weight, but is not equivalent to an actual liquid or weight ounce.

I'll bet it's been responsible for more than one purchase order mishap.

[cinder karma]

gist.github.com just gave me an invalid cert???

[regal ingot]

what sort of invalid?

[devout vault]

It's working for me

[regal ingot]

(same)

[cinder karma]

Sec_error_unknown_server

I'm seeing a cert from Cisco

This looks all fine to me

[devout vault]

Mine's from Sectigo

[regal ingot]

same

[ivory shadow]

OpenDNS

Did they block gist for spam or something?

[cinder karma]

Oh fuck am I just firewalled

Grumpy.

Yeah it's fine on my phone (on data)

Okay, thank you! I know who to ask

[chrome ginkgo]

my god

i have never felt as stupid as i did reading this thread

y'all are so smart 😭

[thin estuary]

Nah we’re pretty dumb

[gaunt wadi]

no im so smart

[fleet wren]

no, I'm of perfectly average intelligence

[gaunt wadi]

also, the chatter here isn't a useful barometer of intelligence

also, don't negatively compare yourself to others/only measure growth based on your past self

also, you can learn the tech nonsense as well

also, while i'm at it, ✨ abolish money ✨

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJqDPaf31Gw

[cinder karma]

Man, this is the hardest I've ever worked to try to pay someone lol

[winged vale]

is there admin

i wana join the farm

[lethal walrus]

what farm?

[pliant snow]

the farm

[safe dragon]

the one and only

[rotund violet]

We only have openings for animals. Specifically, you can apply as either a dairy cow or a sheep.

[strange rock]

...That's a butt

[lethal walrus]

yep

[fleet wren]

this is poultry discrimination

[rotund violet]

Coop is full, sorry.

You could apply as a goose, maybe. But you'll have to stay outside.

[supple ether]

khloe how many goose emotes do you have

[lethal walrus]

I personally have 19

[supple ether]

🪿 <- the only one I have

[ivory shadow]

About 60.

[supple ether]

[ivory shadow]

There's a story behind it too. I don't like speaking, but when I do raiding in FF14 I've needed a way to get people's attention so I've used a soundboard and I got the honk sound from Untitled Goose Game. And people started making goose jokes. So I just started acquiring and making goose emotes.

[supple ether]

lol

[ivory shadow]

Making that one was so much work, but it's my favorite. Then I had a friend request an edit so I also have

[supple ether]

I LOVE THAT

im stealing those

[ivory shadow]

In the true spirit of the untitled goose

My favorite non-animated one I've done is probably...

[supple ether]

jazz for the soul

[ivory shadow]

At one point I also had a 10 part image of the goose holding Sephiroth's Masamune but the server that's on has lost emote slots so it's unusable right now.

[supple ether]

awww

I love multi-part emotes

I had one for this random doodle one of the server members made but I left the server, and even though I have the pngs still I never reuploaded them

[ivory shadow]

This is what the whole thing looked like. Just... split up into 10 or 11 bits.

For when isn't enough

[supple ether]

oh my god

[cinder karma]

This is me today

On the warpath

Trying to figure out who fucked up and why

[rotund violet]

And then near the end of the day you get the sinking realization, "crap, it was me..."

[safe dragon]

listened to an overconfident little obnoxious dev talk shit about some code he had to deal with recently and how he could tell it must’ve been written by one of two people that he dislikes only to then git blame and find out it was written by one of the people he just shit talked it to

I was relatively confident I knew who wrote it but I decided not to say anything and let it play out

[pliant snow]

omg

[safe dragon]

no one likes him so nothing really changes because of this event

but I found it amusing

the code he was shittalking wasn’t even that bad

he was just trying to justify why he was struggling to add another feature on top of it

🙏

[rotund violet]

Wait, I'm confused... so he said it was written by one of two devs he disliked, and he was right?

[pliant snow]

he was wrong, it was the guy he was directly talking to

[rotund violet]

Ok, took me a few tries but I get it now.

Definitely cringe, though my favorite is still when it turns out to be me (or whomever's doing the complaining).

[cinder karma]

(In this case luckily it can't be me.)

(Is one of two vendors.)

[rain apex]

Do y'all have Opinions about golang

[fleet wren]

my only exposure to golang is its rather infamous handling of errors
Rust supremacy

[safe dragon]

I messed around with goroutines one evening and loved it but haven't used it since

[rotund violet]

I've used Go a bit, don't know if I have an "opinion" on it really. It's a decent alternative to python for some build tooling scenarios. Probably wouldn't use it for user-facing apps.

It has some good ideas, some silly ideas.

[safe dragon]

golang has the mindset that the standard library should be as simple and minimal as possible as far as I can tell which I understand but it's not something I personally like

with that I mean lacking first party support for most things

[rotund violet]

Yeah, well it's kind of a "By Google For Google" thing, so you'll see a pervasive NIH philosophy.

[cinder karma]

Nih?

[fleet wren]

Not Invented Here

[rain apex]

But it at least impl the usual data structures and algorithms right

[rotund violet]

Hah, a hardware eng ought to know that one even better than software engineers...

[safe dragon]

I'd assume so, depending on what you consider "the usual"

[rain apex]

The set of things c++ stl covers more or less

[fleet wren]

if it has vectors and maps it's good enough for me

[safe dragon]

what's a vector in this case

in many languages vectors are for SIMD optimization which is rather niche

[fleet wren]

C++ vectors

[safe dragon]

o

idk C++

[cinder karma]

A vector has both magnitude and direction

[devout vault]

They're basically C# List (I think those are backed by an array, right?)

[safe dragon]

oh like vec in rust

[fleet wren]

yeah just a fancy smancy name for resizable heap-allocated lists

[cinder karma]

(Yes(

[safe dragon]

yeah in my head that's just a list cause of c#

vectors in c# are simd things I've never interacted with directly...

[cinder karma]

I would love to have an excuse to simd

[safe dragon]

get into game engine development

[cinder karma]

With all due respect

=<>÷^$&<÷^#<÷<= no

[safe dragon]

fair

[cinder karma]

I would rather do modern physics oh wait I DO

[rain apex]

What if u go work for autodesk

[gaunt wadi]

i like it

the distribution of downsides to upsides is net enjoyable to me

[gaunt wadi]

last time I checked, about a year ago, literally 0 of the hundreds of community proposed language changes since the release of the language were accepted

it's all on github and you can view them. feature requests to the stdlib/implementation changes for stdlib or runtime get accepted all the time, but literally no request to update the language spec has ever been approved if it hasn't come from google internally

generics maybe counts since a trillion people requested it and they eventually did it, but I don't know how much feedback they took from people about the design

It is frustrating when a language change i want has been given a 'no', but on the flipside the one time I found a weird dns problem they couldn't reproduce they fixed it in the stdlib for me anyway

I'm curious where it'll go in 30 years. It has a very strong direction set by ~3 founding members that are still working on it and once they no longer are working on the project I wonder how it'll evolve

anyone know how python evolved when guido stepped down? or similar? there's going to be something like that, also it's a bit more distributed than one person currently

[pliant snow]

I dont know if this does or doesnt really surprise me

open source in the technical sense

[rotund violet]

Nothing stopping some other person or organization from forking it and releasing their own, if they want to do the maintenance.

I'd be surprised if it hasn't already been done, somewhere.

I think even Stallman would agree that open source doesn't mean you have to accept PRs.

[lethal walrus]

I like go. Wails is very nice too

[rotund violet]

I thought that was some obscure Elmer Fudd type joke, but no, apparently that's the actual library name.

[strange copper]

I respect the decisions that were made when they invented go but I don't like a lot of their decisions lol

[regal bobcat]

hi, Can Windows 7 or 8 still be used to install Steam? With a special method? Because now there is no support

[fleet wren]

Probably better to just update to 10 tbh

[regal bobcat]

yes, but my pc is old

now i use windows 10 and it feels heavy

[fleet wren]

Linux?

[regal bobcat]

i use it on my laptop, i still need to use the apps from windows hehe

[rain apex]

You can launch some games without having steam open

[pliant snow]

Time to get a gog account

I think valve does have a steam install cli, but idk if its still supported

[crystal wren]

Failing an official thing, you could try https://github.com/SteamRE/DepotDownloader?

[regal bobcat]

what if the game is from steam? like stardew valley, cs etc.

[pliant snow]

if stardew is installed, you can just launch it by finding its exe and running it directly. You do need to get it installed first tho

idk about the others, if you go to their steam page it'll say

[gaunt wadi]

depends if the game has drm or not. Stardew Valley does not, counter strike probably does

[safe dragon]

lack of official support is unlikely to fully break it properly

it's just a website in a CEF wrapper for the most part

[thin estuary]

Oh man, Windows 7 was released 15 years ago

[gaunt wadi]

omg what a coincidence

https://groups.google.com/g/golang-dev/c/0OqBkS2RzWw

I had no idea that this happened when I wrote that message

Russ is stepping down to work on a llm programming assistant... you either die young or see yourself become the villain

Oscar differs from many development-focused uses of LLMs by not trying to augment or displace the code writing process at all. After all, writing code is the fun part of writing software. Instead, the idea is to focus on the not-fun parts, like processing incoming issues, matching questions to existing documentation, and so on.

Not an awful start tho

[pliant snow]

I read that as LLVM at first

idk man, im not sure these LLMs are gonna be the hot item for much longer

[gaunt wadi]

yeah i agree

a better related issue finder - the only functionality it has currently - doesn't seem like a terrible idea to me, but it's also going to be wrong often which is going to add work of looking through unrelated issues rather than reducing it

he plans to add the ability to map natural text to command executions, e.g. 'close this issue' -> close issue, rather than allowing the bot to perform arbitrary actions, which is better but it's still going to do the wrong thing occasionally

he plans to get it to check out the code, read the expected vs actual behavior the user described, and run git bisect in a container to determine the commit that introduced the bug

lol that is just not going to happen

i like how it's trying to automate the unfun parts rather than the fun parts, but llms are just by design incapable of understanding anything and wrong often so I can't see it becoming super useful

maybe the leadership change will be good tho

[pliant snow]

theres a leadership vacancy cat, nows your chance

[rain apex]

i vote cat for pogo

[gaunt wadi]

i become leader, accept every language change I am looking for, quit immediately

[gaunt wadi]

whats pogo?

[pliant snow]

president

of

grapes and

oranges

[rain apex]

Ig we don't really abbreviate "president of" like this outside of potus (president of the united states)

[gaunt wadi]

president implies election and choice

supreme dictator of go only

also, I stumbled upon this when looking through old go maintainer's mastodons

https://github.com/google/re2/issues/502

sweet and sad

i like how they shit on google a lot

[leaden marsh]

sdog

supreme
dictator
of oranges and
grapes

[lethal walrus]

Pretty
Orange
Godly
Order

[rigid parrot]

does anyone know if there's a way to run Stardew with a custom log-level for the error log? I see that I can add a LogLevel argument when calling Monitor..Log from my C# code, but it seems that Stardew is just spitting everything including TRACE to that log file and I don't know how to filter that -- might be a standard .NET thing; I'm pretty new to it

[supple ether]

Get the developer version of smapi, that will print trace to console

[rigid parrot]

i'm looking for the opposite, though

i'm fine with tailing the error log file itself, but since the Monitor.Log method takes an argument for which log level (trace, debug, info, warn), I'm assuming there's a way to filter the logging down to certain levels only

[rain apex]

You can use the log parser

Not sure if you can set a log level, probably not?

[rigid parrot]

then why would you pass one in when calling Log() ?

[worn remnant]

i don't believe there's a way to tell SMAPI to only output certain levels to the log file (except by editing SMAPI's code, which you could certainly do), but the classic tail -f | grep can easily do live filtering

[rigid parrot]

that’s what I was mostly afraid of — i was hoping it was using standard .NET logging stuff, and that some environment variable or json file or something could configure it at runtime

yep looks like you're right, in Monitor.cs it seems that the only filtering it does is to filter TRACE from the console unless the option is set to force that to be allowed

        {
            // generate message
            string prefix = this.GenerateMessagePrefix(source, level);
            string fullMessage = $"{prefix} {message}";
            string consoleMessage = this.ShowFullStampInConsole ? fullMessage : $"[{source}] {message}";

            // write to console
            if (this.WriteToConsole && (this.ShowTraceInConsole || level != ConsoleLogLevel.Trace))
                this.ConsoleWriter.WriteLine(consoleMessage, level);

            // write to log file
            this.LogFile.WriteLine(fullMessage);
        }```

[sand frost]

you could fork smapi and make yourself a custom build? is there a reason you want this for anyone besides yourself?

if you want to have other people experience this, then it would be something to discuss with pathos probably

[supple ether]

If you only want it for your own mod then you could roll your own or use another existing library I think.

If you're using it for all mods, it will likely make it more difficult to get help in the future since the general expectation is single-file logs, and nobody wants to spend a bunch of time switching between files and comparing timestamps

[sand frost]

I only compare multiple logs for people when I'm feeling particularly benevolent

[rigid parrot]

yeah, it’s pretty uncommon to find an app that bothers to take log levels but doesn’t support filtering (or sending log messages to handlers other than files), so i was really just asking if I was missing an obvious way to configure that

i can just grep for my purposes mostly, however, a standard framework would also allow setting levels per-module

[sand frost]

most people who mess with smapi logs use the smapi website to help with them

[rigid parrot]

gotcha

[sand frost]

maybe what you want could be part of the smapi website?

it has nice filtering options

[supple ether]

And the site does let you filter

[rigid parrot]

that’s beside the point really

[sand frost]

and search options

[rigid parrot]

so for instance

[sand frost]

i liked when Khloe added regex searches

and pagination

[rigid parrot]

in a standard logging framework, I could set a level of INFO for some other persons mod that is way too noisy, but set TRACE for my mod that i am actively working on

and that would be visible to me in realtime, not uploading a log to some website

[supple ether]

Perhaps a simple solution would be a log parser that you can pipe SMAPI's stdout into to the re-log into multiple target files

[rigid parrot]

i get that SMAPI doesn’t do that, but that’s the sort of thing I was expecting

[sand frost]

i'm a gremlin who only makes stardew mods and research code so I know nothing about standard logging frameworks

in my stardew life, the game code itself likes to throw eldritch horrors my way; in research, well, academic code is a mess at the best of times

my janky homegrown solution for modmaking is that I make all my logging purple when I'm debugging stuff and want it really visible

[supple ether]

Well that's what the verbose logging option and TRACE are typically for. If someone is abusing log levels you should probably open a bug report

[sand frost]

and then I un-purple it

[devout vault]

(For what it’s worth, I definitely see where this standard logging stuff is coming from, having poked at NLog when doing game stuff)

[supple ether]

The log levels aren't about importance, they're about relevance to the player

[sand frost]

iirc aedenthorn had a mod to suppress some logging but uh, it was controversial due to other people's mod debugging being affected by it

[rigid parrot]

yeah i mean if anyone really wanted to do a PR for this, the answer would be to (optionally) allow logging to route to some standard framework that has solved all of these problems and then some already

[sand frost]

https://www.nexusmods.com/stardewvalley/mods/11252

[supple ether]

Well, you could always do a pr for it

[sand frost]

^all aedenthorn's are open source if you want to poke it

[supple ether]

I'm not sure how many other people are interested

[rigid parrot]

let’s pretend that what I originally asked was “does Stardew already use a standard logging framework that I can configure at runtime” and the answer is no

i can go forward without that

[sand frost]

is it just me or is nexus jankier today that it was the last time i opened it

[rigid parrot]

just felt like maybe it was using something g like that and I wasn’t seeing it

[sand frost]

none of the images are loading on that mod page I just linked

[supple ether]

No it's definitely been janky

[sand frost]

real life ate my time for a while so I haven't been following any "wow, nexus broke again" happenings

not that real life is done eating me, I'm just ignoring it temporarily

[gaunt wadi]

babe wake up centered bookmarks bar in firefox just dropped

[sonic mirage]

If you just want to see things in different colors in the console while developing, you can snag my DebugConsoleLog helper method
https://github.com/voltaek/StardewMods/blob/main/HoneyHarvestSync/Utilities.cs#L40

[rigid parrot]

oh right on, thank you!

[cinder karma]

Quick how many tabs do you have open rn

[rotund violet]

Ok, that's a lot of windows.

[devout vault]

They're categorized!

[cinder karma]

(I would show you but I'm lying on the floor trying to gather the energy to do anything useful.)

[devout vault]

Most on are my right monitor

Minimized

For when I get back to them

[rotund violet]

...in about 3 years.

[devout vault]

...one of them is apparently just a dominos tracker page

closes

[rotund violet]

As in the pizza?

[devout vault]

Yeah

[rotund violet]

Scary.

[devout vault]

I like their stuffed cheesy bread

[cinder karma]

No, the world domino's competition

https://youtu.be/Fw_vsBu7ewA?si=2Qr3lpJyefgzDiwP

My work laptop has been asking me if I scheduled my summer vacation and showing me the Olympics medal numbers

Lol

[devout vault]

Vacation? What's that?

(I mean, I am taking a short one over labor day weekend)

[cinder karma]

Enjoy!!!!

I might go hiking again

Would be good to get away from the computer

[devout vault]

Oops wrong channel

[sand frost]

Me too!!! I used to eat dominos in college but haven’t really since

In grad school papa John’s was cheaper, and that’s what I got for the kiddos

And eating pizza ever Sunday sort of put me off pizza

[devout vault]

Oddly enough I've found I don't enjoy their pizza as much as I used to

But stuffed cheesy bread with marina sauce? mmmmmmmm

[floral parcel]

Honestly, cheesy bread in general is just awesome.

[cinder karma]

I want to ASDKFJLALWESFJSADFLJK murder latex

(if you want to know, my text in this one column of my table is floating two pixels to the left. Why? Not sure.)

question

I'm in the market for an opinionated latex formatting plugin

frankly I don't really care what opinions it has, just that it has them and will make everything nice and pretty and consistent

where can I find one?

[cinder karma]

Question for the crowd

Imagine you are on a college campus and you wander past a pile of free sushi outside a classroom

Would you take some

(And do you consider it more or less risky than convenience store sushi.)

[rain apex]

Is the weather hot in this scenario

[worn remnant]

i would take the inari, if there is any. otherwise, no

[fleet wren]

college me probably would. current me wouldn't.
(and safety has nothing to do with it. I had eaten worse, I will eat worse)

[sand frost]

Indoors, air conditioned

[rain apex]

I'll take the cali rolls

[rotund violet]

College me would and did, current me doesn't even eat restaurant sushi.

But it was a different time back then; if I try to imagine myself in college today, with the same diet and same general mentality as I had at that time, I might still not eat it. It's not just a matter of food safety anymore, I'd be worried about bad actors. Definitely more risky than convenience-store sushi.

[safe dragon]

I love sushi but I would not eat sushi just sitting there outside a classroom

[candid zodiac]

anyone has good recommendations for C# courses or learning material?

[cinder karma]

...either Elizabeth and I are both brave and foolish or free food js actually much more rare on most campuses

Because while I may pass on hallway sushi I would probably drink the hallway coffee and eat a sandwich

[worn remnant]

what is your threat model that includes leaving bad sushi in a university hallway? what plans are served by this

[safe dragon]

never in my 5 years of university did I see free food

[sand frost]

That’s a travesty

[sand frost]

I’ve been in more than one university and I feel like free food is universal

[safe dragon]

do your universities not ask exorbitant amounts of money just for a sandwich

[strange copper]

Yes and the sandwich isn't even good 🥹

[rain apex]

i think if theres random free food in a hallway i'd assume it's catering for an event and i dont wanna steal food

[cinder karma]

I would have starved to death if not for the free food mailing list

[sand frost]

This is like leftovers, they do also charge insane amounts for dining hall food of course

[rotund violet]

There's no "plans". Just a lot of shitty people in the world.

You think everyone behaves rationally all the time?

[worn remnant]

no, but i expect them to be lazy, and there are so many lower-effort ways to off a bunch of untargeted university students. anyway this is getting dark so i will not entertain further discussion

[rotund violet]

Who's dark? Never heard of spiking the punch, baking "special" brownies, disgruntled-minimum-wage spit, laxative pranks and other crap that's pretty much exclusive to college? You don't have to think super crazy or super dark to avoid the hallway mystery food.

[dark veldt]

Let’s move on please. And @rotund violet no mention of illicit substances, even in innuendo.

[cinder karma]

Anyways new topic

[lament pivot]

So pretty it started and ended the topic all by itself

[pliant snow]

my smart home crumbling around me... have to turn on lights manually like a caveman...

[safe dragon]

the way God intended

[rain apex]

God turned on the universe with voice commands

[pliant snow]

ugh i dont want to switch back to the other zigbee driver and have to repair everything

even though that one worked way better

[fast heath]

Where should I start learning as a game developer

[supple ether]

Well, the fundamentals of programming is a good place to start, but generally speaking there's a LOT of ways to be a game developer.
My recommendation is to either just try different things until you find something you like, OR if you have specific requirements / game types in mind, find tools that support those things

If you have more specific thoughts I can maybe make some recommendations?

There's important skills other than programming as well- art, sound, ux, game design -but programming is usually a good starting point for having something that works.

[rotund violet]

I'm not sure how many of us are game devs in the sense of either having worked professionally in the field or having actual released indie titles. And it really does depend heavily on whether you're coming from a programming background, a media background, or no background at all, and whether you ultimately want to go solo/collab or work for a studio.

But you probably can't go wrong with "use a game engine". Find one that you like and go over the tutorial/introductory materials and projects. Unity is a popular one, but for specific types of games there are more beginner-friendly choices like GameMaker if you just want to lean into the art, sound design, etc. and not worry about the coding. They all have beginner guides and example projects, and once you get past that you can find dozens of YouTube videos.

[supple ether]

Gamemaker is great for beginners, but expensive. Unity is free-ish and has a huge amount of guides and resources available, but recently did some sketchy shit with licensing and has recurring problems with unfinished/abandoned features. Godot is free and relatively beginner-friendly, but still has only a small community. Monogame is free and well-trodden, but it's also the "build it yourself" option. Unreal is free-ish and great for certain categories of 3d game (easy to use, powerful, large community) but doing things it's not designed for is much more difficult.
There's others too, like bevy, scratch, haxe, lwjgl, etc but those are some of the most popular engines/libraries

[rotund violet]

Oh yeah, forgot Haxe, I think that's what they used for Dead Cells.

[crystal wren]

And LDtk!

[devout vault]

Isn’t that just a map editor?

[safe dragon]

it is

haxe is just a programming language

the game engine that uses haxe is called heaps

which was used by dead cells yeah

it's pretty funny to me that windows 10 gained users in the steam hardware survey and windows 11 lost them

[cinder karma]

Why is windows 7 going. Up

[ivory shadow]

It's me I installed Windows 7 100,000 times as a joke

I am not surprised Windows 11 has lost users. Windows 11 is... not great.

[rain apex]

Wow Debian +0.05%

[pliant snow]

I always take the monthly changes with a grain of salt

[safe dragon]

as you should

[crystal wren]

I switched to Windows 11 day one, and loved it. It was actually really nice.

It is now significantly worse, and I've been permanently on Linux for months.

[pliant snow]

Apparently linux desktop at 4% marketshare now

[crystal wren]

Also since I've just cursed Casey with this Java knowledge (though she did already know, so it's more that I attempted to), enjoy:

public enum WeirdEnum {
    ThingOne("Thing one"),
    ThingTwo("Thing two"),
    ThingThree("Thing three");
    
    private String description;
    
    WeirdEnum(String description) {
        this.description = description;
    }
    
    public String getDescription() {
        return this.description;
    }
}

public static void main(String[] args) {
    WeirdEnum thing = WeirdEnum.ThingTwo;
    System.out.println(thing.getDescription());    
}

[worn remnant]

i'm not even sure i've detected the part that's cursed and i already hate it /lh

[crystal wren]

I mean it is Java, so that natural inclination is fair.

[rotund violet]

What's wrong with it?

[crystal wren]

That's an enum.

[rotund violet]

So?

[crystal wren]

With... fields, and methods, and it just-

[rotund violet]

I've written all kinds of enums like that, not sure I understand the problem.

[crystal wren]

[rotund violet]

It's actually C# enums that are screwed up, not Java's.

[rain apex]

what are the main things that got worse in your opinion

[rotund violet]

Rust enumerations are more like Java's (admittedly with some major differences).

The main thing I don't like about Java's is that it feels almost like it could be a discriminated union... but isn't.

[crystal wren]

Things as basic and fundamental as things opening the standard system file save/open dialog taking up to five plus seconds to fully open and render. Windows Explorer's UI rendering unacceptably slowly, the kind of small thing that just drives you mad over time.

(And to be clear, this is across numerous reinstalls on numerous drives over multiple GPUs.)

[crystal wren]

And I mean don't get me wrong, I like the functionality I can use with this, it's just... odd and feels odd.

[rain apex]

but that sounds like it was bad to begin with and you just didnt notice until you used it for a bit

[rotund violet]

C++ has enum class and enum struct, which is... well, again, not the same, but along similar lines that an enum just has to be static/constant instances of some underlying type.

[crystal wren]

It's actually exactly the opposite! The snappiness of everything is what I liked most about it at first.

[rotund violet]

One of my main frustrations with C# (technically, .NET's fault) has always been the lobotomized enums. Who says it has to be a primitive? The CLR does.

[crystal wren]

And C++ has... C+ is a lot nowdays. Lemme see when enum class got added...

[rotund violet]

It's C++11, I think.

[crystal wren]

Oh, wow, 11.

[devout vault]

Does enum class let you add methods and stuff?

For some reason I thought that just changed some scoping related things

[rotund violet]

I wonder if this was specifically Win11, or just the aspect of being a fresh install.

[devout vault]

My win11 is pretty snappy

[crystal wren]

It would be sort of tolerable on a fresh install, and would get worse and worse over time.

This is once it started being a problem of course.

[devout vault]

New computer from early this year though

[rotund violet]

I'm sticking to 10. Not so worried about performance - in fact, Win10 is a little sketchy around the whole E-core situation - but all the ads and "suggestions" and "recommendations" and everything are just too intrusive in Win11. But, I think I'm probably repeating past complaints there.

As far as C++ enums, I'm not sure if the underlying type can really be any arbitrary struct, TBH, but I do know they aren't just glorified ints.

[crystal wren]

In other news...

https://tenor.com/KHjH.gif

[lethal walrus]

does bath 4 of 2.8k display kit mean four monitors or the resolution split over 4?

[crystal wren]

Thankfully neither!

[lethal walrus]

what is it?

[pliant snow]

Shipment batch 4

[crystal wren]

It's the 4th batch of preorders for the n-

Yes.

[lethal walrus]

ahhh

[pliant snow]

I kinda want one, but idk if its worth it/will kill my battery life

[crystal wren]

I have to imagine it'll be noticeably worse for battery...

[lethal walrus]

oh is it a framework thing

[crystal wren]

It's the new 2.8k 120Hz screen, yeah.

[lethal walrus]

ahhh

[crystal wren]

My biggest concern is the iGPU in the 11th gen i7 driving the higher resolution... and refresh rate.

[devout vault]

Somebody please save me from my 15 minute content builds

[crystal wren]

Delete the content.

Problem solved.

Is this... baking, though? Because I feel that pain.

[devout vault]

Yep

[rotund violet]

As in baking textures and lightmaps?

Or are we talking about food now

[weary plume]

Common, let 'em cook.

[devout vault]

Everything since incremental build doesn’t work. (I’m debugging some scripts)

[weary plume]

Why doesn't incremental build work?

[devout vault]

Dunno

That’s just what I’ve been told

I did just ask a moment ago though

[weary plume]

Welp, if the boss says it's broken then it's broken I guess.

[devout vault]

“If you’re only doing <thing I’m doing> incremental works fine”

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Why does our docs say it doesn’t thennnnnnnnn

[weary plume]

The docs were written before they fixed it, then docs were never updated.

[devout vault]

Well it still doesn’t work for other cases I think

Just the particular thing I’m doing right now it’s fine

[crystal wren]

Be the legend that fixes the incremental build for everything.

[devout vault]

I’m a measly junior, I don’t get to pick my own tasks 😛

[rotund violet]

This is obviously some inside baseball but... inside what?

[cinder karma]

Clearly do what I do....make coffee

Drive downtown

[kindred ferry]

yay i finally made it to 2 mill made

[kindred ferry]

i only just noticed i put this in the wrong chat

[rotund violet]

So, question for the monitor buffs, what's the difference between a $700 monitor arm like an Ergotron and the $100 affairs you find on Amazon? (and don't say "about $600", please)

[regal ingot]

they're still just glorified ints (by which I mean some integral type, not int) once you get past the type checker.

[devout vault]

I go to write a source generator and github is giving me a unicorn for the "source generators cookbook" (and I can't find any class API documentation for things like SyntaxTree subcalsses either)

[rotund violet]

If you're writing a source generator for code (as opposed to a data file like the mod translation thing) then that doc is outdated anyway, you should be using incremental generators.

[devout vault]

I found that too and am currently reading up on that

But that page on github too is unicorned

[rotund violet]

Best info I got on incrementals was on some dude's blog. A few things have changed over the past few years and the official docs were never very good.

[devout vault]

This is what I'm currently reading: https://andrewlock.net/creating-a-source-generator-part-1-creating-an-incremental-source-generator/

[rotund violet]

Yeah, I see it's the first result on Google/Kagi now.

[cinder karma]

Nick's blog iirc

[rotund violet]

It's good info.

[cinder karma]

The fast enum guy

Yeah

....why did I think his name was nick

[rotund violet]

Nick?

[cinder karma]

I just recalled it was the same guy who did the fast enums and got my wires crossed as to his first name

[devout vault]

Why are these all erroringggggg (hovering over the errors saying "Not Available" for the other project)

[rotund violet]

Source generators are very fussy. Like, extremely fussy. For starters, did you create the correct project type and update the csproj?

[devout vault]

I created a class library and then replaced the .csproj

[rotund violet]

It's targeting netstandard2.0 and has all the codeanalysis references?

[devout vault]

Yep

It compiles fine

It's just intellisense being mean

[rotund violet]

Ah. The other thing that source generators are extremely fussy about is project reloads, though that usually affects the project using the source generator, I haven't seen errors like that in the source generator project itself.

[devout vault]

I'm not even sure that what I want to do is possible with source generators

[rotund violet]

But if your source generator crashes, or if you just change it for any reason, you'll often have to restart VS to make it start working again.

[devout vault]

But I'm trying it anyways

[rotund violet]

A bunch of stuff is cached and it's hard to clear the cache.

[cinder karma]

What are you trying to do?

[devout vault]

I figured they would've fixed that since I last did a source generator

[rotund violet]

Hahaha, you figure wrongly.

[devout vault]

I want to find references to things like: Floats.F1_2345 and create static fields in that type based on the name

[rotund violet]

Amazing powerful tool with by far the worst documentation/support/QoL of anything Microsoft has ever made for devs.

[devout vault]

(I can't use floats directly because fixed point math nonsense)

[cinder karma]

....fixed point math?

[rotund violet]

Well, you can't modify an existing type with a source generator, you can only add new files. I think you can add static fields to partial classes, but I'd double-check that.

[devout vault]

Hmm, I've done partial classes with source generators before, didn't realize there might be limitations on static

[rotund violet]

As far as the "input", you have access to the whole syntax tree so the answer to that part is definitely "yes". At worst, you'd have to add your constants to a new file.

I'm not saying there are such limitations, just that I've never done it before and therefore don't know. It's probably fine. But, y'know, check before spending several days on the source generator if that could be a deal-breaker?

[devout vault]

I doubt it'll take several days?

But I will test

[cinder karma]

Can't they do anything a partial class can do

My question is re fixed point

[devout vault]

Oh I missed your question

[cinder karma]

What are you doing with fixed point?

[devout vault]

Physics

For rollback networking

(I already have the physics library, no way am I writing my own physics)

I thought I DMed you the video when I got it working, maybe not

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/372042308054548480/1273100774565744731/devenv_Ps3GiRgNEy.mp4?ex=66be0bbd&is=66bcba3d&hm=d44f9e6da847718dc4c20986d6ed099baf13e6d59ff188599d2988ae0df27e84&

[safe dragon]

github is down everyone panic

[devout vault]

Yep

[cinder karma]

You might have! I just can't easily view videos XD

[safe dragon]

I was wondering why my commit wasn't going through

[cinder karma]

I guess the lack of const functions in c# is A Problem too

[devout vault]

Not very often I have to use object browser to find stuff, but here we are

[devout vault]

Good news: It works, I can build things properly.
Bad news: VS shows errors for every reference to my generated fields. Rider will be fine if I load the project fresh, but making changes makes only the most recent one not show errors

[devout vault]

Old style source generators work fine so sticking with that

[rotund violet]

That's definitely not a normal outcome.

Kind of sounds like there might be something wrong with the incremental-ness of your ISG.

[devout vault]

Might’ve been the deduplication code I had going actually

(Like, if the same Floats.F5_13 was used in two different files, preventing defining it twice)

Ran into the same problem with the old style but fixed it right at the end

Not sure how to get around it for incrementals though

Maybe the same thing would work, I did move some stuff around

[rotund violet]

Pretty hard to say without seeing the whole implementation but generally the most common error with ISGs is confusion over exactly when they run. If you maintain any state whatsoever, you're probably getting into trouble; the whole thing needs to be a linq-like chain of Select.

But eh, sounds like this is a personal project so if legacy SGs are easier to work with and don't slow down your editing, then it's not really a problem.

[devout vault]

Yep, it’ll probably end up being another not even half baked project that’s not release worthy. But it’s fun to play around with it and learn more in the process

[rotund violet]

With that confidence, you can't possibly fail!

[devout vault]

It’d be different if I was remotely good at 3D art 😛

[rotund violet]

I can't do 2D art, but I'm not letting that stop me. Interesting projects tend to eventually attract the creative types, even if it's not until the sequel.

[rain apex]

3D art is more "tech" I feel

[rotund violet]

Kinda depends. You can do a lot in Blender with reference art, if you're shooting for something realistic or at least something that's already got a concept.

[rain apex]

Lots of procedural node based things

[devout vault]

My brother has offered to do models but I don’t have well defined enough concepts to guide him (certainly can’t make concept art)

[rotund violet]

You mean geometry nodes? Those are... not common.

[devout vault]

Not that the inspiration game really has high detail models

https://tenor.com/view/kirby-air-ride-kirby-gamecube-mattscrub-gif-1455784322547037350

[rain apex]

Oh I was thinking more about lookdev

Textures n shit

[rotund violet]

There are some pretty big marketplaces for 3D models. You could always just grab some cheap placeholder art. Even if it's not exactly what you want, it'll still go a long way in the dev phase.

[rain apex]

Wow why do we have a kirby emote

[devout vault]

I have so many Kirby emotes

Mostly from the KAR netplay/modding server

[devout vault]

That’s a good point, maybe I can block something out that way and my brother can work from there

[safe dragon]

I get a lot of dumb "advice" videos for programming on youtube but this one I just find fascinating from the title cause what

Boolean Is Not Your Friend

we're going after boolean values now?

[fleet wren]

Without looking at that video, I'm guessing it discourages passing boolean arguments in function parameters in favor of explicit overloads/config struct?

Which imo is not invalid advice

[safe dragon]

it is not

it seems to be about designing your data models

more specifically it's about exposing boolean values outside the object

it's a reasonable video

[cinder karma]

Ah, but sometimes .enabled is fine?

[safe dragon]

illegal sorry

[cinder karma]

I'm a bad programmer okay

[safe dragon]

the main thing it's about seems to be boolean values that can only be a certain state when other values on the object also have some specific state.
Like an IsPublished property and a PublicationDate property. You're allowing for an invalid combination where there is a publication date but it has not been published

well

that's different from the video's version and not as true but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVew0lXNCqQ

it's an alright video

[gaunt wadi]

What DNS registrars do you all use?

I got put onto squarespace and it's mega awful

'ai' features crammed down my throat, unexplainable error messages, user hostile defaults

[lethal walrus]

most of my domains are AWS, but my main site and a personal one are cloudflare

[gaunt wadi]

unfortunately both evil

i hope to live a life where i never see an accursed aws console ever again

[pliant snow]

Mine are through namecheap, but the server run on digitalocean so thats actually where i administer things

[cinder karma]

Okay that is different though

I'm literally querying whether or not thr power source is enabled

[leaden marsh]

My domains are also Namecheap

I think I had some Domain.com ones too, never had issues with either

[safe dragon]

I've got cloudflare rn

though nothing is currently hosted there actually

[devout vault]

Think I'm using domain.com

I still need to make my new website

[vivid jetty]

Guys help me OUTTT

when I try joining multiplayer it says “The server host has closed its connection stardew valley “

[lethal walrus]

#vanilla-tech-support

we just talk about DNS here /hj

[rotund violet]

Mine's done through a web hosting provider. Hardly ever use the web space but the domain comes free with it.

As to the bool thing - I'm not surprised that the video has a clickbait title, but I agree there's some truth to it and it's one of the subtler things we pick up on re: API design, specifically that a lot of times when we reach for "bool" we aren't thinking carefully enough about the consequences of limiting to just two values for all eternity. And then over time you end up with silly hacks like bool reallyActuallyEnabled or Stardew's superEssential (in fact this pattern is all over the place in SDV's decomp).

tl;dr, roughly 9 times out of 10 when you put a bool in something public-facing, you really wanted an enum.

[cinder karma]

Nice thing about python

Bools are really just ints in disguise

||am I serious? Even I don't know||

[patent skiff]

I thought everything was a hash in python

[fleet wren]

isn't this the case for every language

[cinder karma]

Yes (well, bytes)

But like, python happily let's me do True + 3

[fleet wren]

Doubleplustrue!

[cinder karma]

It's weird because like

[rotund violet]

Memories of ByteBool vs. WordBool vs. LongBool...

[cinder karma]

Hi chu/e!

[rain apex]

But in py nothing is anything just change types whenever you want

[cinder karma]

🐍

[rain apex]

Hi atra

[cinder karma]

Not really?

You can't just do a 4 + "str"

[sand frost]

Types aren’t real until they bite you

[cinder karma]

Like python has types

[sand frost]

Python has types and also some libraries try harder to enforce them

[cinder karma]

God, lol

[rain apex]

Just gotta impl my own str with valid + to int

[cinder karma]

I accidentally did a dumb and transposed two items in a python function call today

To be fair I can buy 4 + "str" == "4str"

Like there really isn't another valid option

[rain apex]

Does that work in js

[cinder karma]

Javascript trying to parse strings back to numbers to do BS is thr weird

[patent skiff]

4 + "1" == 5

[cinder karma]

Yeah that is the problem.

[fleet wren]

Speaking of bool, I got reminded of C++'s "clever" attempt at optimizing vector<bool>, which is apparently a mistake most people regret to this day. Sometimes a bool can be a number (under the hood) and that's okay

[rain apex]

Is vector<bool> a thing frequently used

[fleet wren]

I sure hope not

[cinder karma]

Did they do a bitarray

[devout vault]

Basically yeah

Have fun doing &vec[2]

[fleet wren]

Yes they did a bitarray
and wrap it with vector functions to pretend to be a vector

[rain apex]

why

[fleet wren]

why indeed

[rotund violet]

I could see it making sense for shader code, maybe.

[patent skiff]

I used to do that kind of thing on purpose back when I used to program tiny microcontroller with a few k of ram total, to pack multiple flags in a single byte.

Trained myself out of that since then, on modern systems you have plenty of memory.

[rain apex]

the why is more about why present it as a high level vector i suppose

[rotund violet]

So you don't have to do bit-shifting to access it, presumably.

[cinder karma]

Tbh if you need that type of performance

You shouldn't be scared of a little bit shifting

(I do bitarrays too! Sometimes!)

(Sometimes I just do bits!)

[safe dragon]

bit stuff scares me

too fast

whenever I've rewritten anything to use bit magic it's gotten a much larger performance lift than feels reasonable

[regal ingot]

I imagine that by the time you feel the need to rewrite something to use bit magic that you've already identified it as a bottleneck.

[rotund violet]

I haven't used C++ in a while but maybe the bool vector type can be used in template methods like other vector types.

Heavy speculation obviously, but people do these things for some reason, however obscure that reason may be to us now.

[gaunt wadi]

@pliant snow long awaited zigbee update: I got motion sensors originally, but the whole 'stops detecting on no movement' seemed insurmountable; I then got buttons and those work great. I also got a door sensor, but it has real trouble connecting to HA/sending events once I finally get it to pair

overall working well!!

[pliant snow]

You mock me 😔 my zigbee dongle is on the fritz. I went down a rabbit hole of trying to fix it by updating the firmware, but the updater developers telling me my stick might be borked, i might need to get a replacement

The buttons are top tier tho

My door sensor also has nothing but trouble. I suspect it doesnt bounce connections between devices, it tries to directly talk to the server

[gaunt wadi]

the motion sensor is also nothing but trouble, but the buttons work perfectly, yeah

I have problems even when directly near the coordinator

neither the motion sensor or buttons are listed here https://zigbee.blakadder.com/zha.html, but the buttons are

all of the old tradfri devices are, so I suspect the software has yet to support it

[gaunt wadi]

hmm apparently it's a problem with the coordinator firmware

updating ti based coordinator firmware looks hard, but updating si labs based coordinator firmware has tools

https://github.com/NabuCasa/universal-silabs-flasher

I got an SI Labs based dongle from the exact same brand, it also comes with ~2021 based firmware....

I'm going to try it when it comes, and then try updating the firmware if not working, and see if that's better

Even https://darkxst.github.io/silabs-firmware-builder/ for a web ui or https://github.com/darkxst/silabs-firmware-builder/ manually

[gaunt wadi]

I will report if successful

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/tretakt-plug-smart-40556511/ seems to be the cheapest repeater option from ikea

[fleet oriole]

Annual International Apryll Whines About Mac UI Day is right now... I am trying to debug PolyamorySweet's ongoing multiplayer error... Trying to mod on the mac drives me mad, because the mouse does weird things, and making folders is hard, and stuff. I think at its root, my brain lacks the neuroplasticity to learn an additional UI. Linux oft has waved a flipper to me... But to relearn I cannot, sadly...

[pliant snow]

You may see a familiar face in the issues lol

[strange copper]

Me at work every day bc why is the scroll inverted

[rotund violet]

You can change the scroll direction...

[fleet wren]

you can? that seems uncharacteristic of Apple to even allow that /j

[rotund violet]

'course you can, it's in the mouse settings.

[pliant snow]

i feel like apples settings are more straightforward than windows these days

[rotund violet]

I've got no complaints about the Macbook. The one or two times something didn't immediately click to me, it turned out to be because I was carrying over assumptions from MS or Google products that actually made a lot less sense than Apple's in retrospect.

It's a pricey ecosystem, and the Intel generation of Macs were absolutely terrible, but they're back to being pretty great in terms of UX and performance these days.

[cinder karma]

I don't enjoy macs but that has to do with me being in linux for so long

[sand frost]

I enjoy Macs but I’ve also been using them consistently for 2 decades

(Windows was a terrible adjustment from macOS, Linux was fine but I don’t have patience for computers doing horrifying things)

The fact that macOS is unix-based means Linux mostly makes sense to me

There’s a few things that annoy me in the mac ecosystem but they’re mostly on my iPad tbh

The notes app export options are somewhat lacking

[strange copper]

It changes the touchpad too tho

I only want my mouse reversed I think

[devout vault]

My computer restarted itself overnight - my uptime streak, ruined

[rotund violet]

Yes, that's true. Like a lot of other things on Mac, There's An App For That (tm). Several, actually, and in this case you don't even have to pay.

One is Scroll Reverser (https://pilotmoon.com/scrollreverser/) and the page has its own list of alternatives if that one's not for you.

[strange copper]

It's not on the approved software list 😔

But at least I got rectangle

Rectangle saves me

[thin estuary]

i've been using Scroll Reverser too, yeah

[safe dragon]

just googled if "children" was actually a word cause I've been typing it so many times today working on some tree structure that I was starting to really doubt myself

[rotund violet]

I just write "chillins".

[lethal walrus]

Oh it's not just me that does that, good

[devout vault]

Semantic satiation!

[rotund violet]

Bah, got sniped. (Yeah, that's the phrase for it.)

Although I first heard it as "saturation". "Satiation" still sounds weird to me in that context.

[safe dragon]

I think this shit is finally working so I can stop typing the word children constantly

definitely some of the most complicated database work I've done in a fair while

[safe dragon]

this has been a lesson in how much you can fuck up performance with a bad sql query. I've gone between 600 ms and 8 ms for the same end result just rewriting it in different ways

[sand frost]

The UK is so flat

@crystal wren the trains are lovely

[cinder karma]

Gasp! Work purchased root beer

Let's start a stupid argument

Best root beer?

[fleet wren]

Sarsi
(technically not made from the same plant as root beer but they taste similar)

[supple ether]

I want to say MUG for the memes but the truth is that small-label root beer is usually the best. Personally I like Jones

[sand frost]

Best root beer is the root beer at hand, usually

I’m sure I’ll have opinions between them if I taste them side by side, but I like it so much better than most other sodas it’s not even a contest

[supple ether]

I like root beer infinitely more than cola or citrus flavors, but I typically prefer more interesting flavors of soda

Recently I had a lavender soda for the first time and it was so good

[sand frost]

I like fruit sodas, but generally with less sugar than the most popular ones

But I’ll drink blueberry soda, apple soda, etc

[supple ether]

Yeah fanta is too syrupy for my taste

[cinder karma]

Fanta is great only as an ice cube tbh

I don't drink it either

[crystal wren]

Trains are great, yes! And on the subject of root beer, if you're in the UK... try to find some dandelion & burdock.

[sand frost]

👀 I’ll look at the store!