programmers-off-topic

[cinder karma]

"The next version of atracore" oops

Oh well

Life happens

No, I missed that that overload of accesstools calls makegenericmethod

[tight egret]

What is #sebs-basement about? I never seen it before. How is Sebs basement related to Stardew Valley?

[pliant snow]

sounds like someone messed up

[lethal walrus]

[[Sebastian]]

[young lark]

https://stardewvalleywiki.com/Sebastian

[pliant snow]

although i dont see it

[lethal walrus]

description of channel

[pliant snow]

ahh

[tight egret]

Thank you

[pliant snow]

@gaunt wadi did you ever play with voice on home assistant

[gaunt wadi]

I ended up writing my own vocie assistant from scratch entirely on my phone that calls the HA API whenever I want to perform a HA action!

[pliant snow]

wtf

[gaunt wadi]

And it can do other stuff, like notes and alarms and things, and works when I'm out of the house

and I understood how to make it work, rather than all the HA stuff 😄

[pliant snow]

how does one make their own voice assistant

[gaunt wadi]

and I can program in compatibility for bad voice recognition so it never misunderstands me, which is nice

my general approach is:

• A linux executable on my phone (outside of Android, on the bare system) that handles text inputs - written in go
• Tasker to transform audio into text, pass it to the executable

Tasker also handles integration as the default voice assistant for my phone, so it works like stock voice assistants

As part of making it, I wrote my own compile time dependency injection framework because none of the ones that existed worked like I wanted 😄

if u can keep a secret, i am in the middle of writing my own mocking library because none of the ones that exist work like I want OR HANDLE GENERICS PROPERLY AHHHHH

The code isn't available, but someday I plan to blog about it/release the libraries publicly

[pliant snow]

I was expecting "no, I havent really messed with it", instead cat over here creating his own custom framework

[gaunt wadi]

[pliant snow]

what do you mean by compile time dependency injection framework

[gaunt wadi]

this but actually good better

https://github.com/google/wire

essentially, my voice assistant is composed of a bunch of clients/libraries (HA, obsidian vault, spotify, etc) and then handlers that handle certain interactions (turn lights on/off, recording notes, etc) and it's a web of initializing clients from various client configuration and then plumbing them to the handlers, the framework figures it out automatically based on just a list of clients/handlers

it does so at compile time rather than runtime, so the generated function which creates all the handlers is exactly like how I would write it manually

AND I MEAN BYTE FOR BYTE I MADE SURE OF THAT

[pliant snow]

im just sitting here in awe

cats just sitting on his own voice assistant tool

[gaunt wadi]

it beeps just like the real voice assistants 😌

it has been an infinite chain of "oh just one more feature" for the last checks notes 2 months

i swear just one more feature I promise

[rain apex]

did you name your assistant

[pliant snow]

so is the program basically just "glue" between the voice to text input and whatever service API? How smart is it, or does it only know some hardcoded phrases

[gaunt wadi]

no 😄

[gaunt wadi]

basically, yes. it's largely based on regexp on strings, matching certain patterns like "turn the kitchen lights off" or "turn the bedroom and kitchen lights on" or "take a note to <arbitary>", and so on

[devout vault]

That sounds incredible

And like a lot of fun to write

[gaunt wadi]

It is both!!!

😄

[pliant snow]

apple has spent 10 years working on what cat just whipped up

[pliant snow]

Computerized Assistant Technology

[gaunt wadi]

oh that's good

that's real good

it's currently named "phone automation utils"

[pliant snow]

always gotta think about the acronym

now i feel like i need to be more productive and finish my half baked projects lol

[gaunt wadi]

do what brings u joy, there is no standard to compare yourself against

[pliant snow]

this is the standard

[devout vault]

Exactly

[gaunt wadi]

it was fun to figure out how to get go to run properly on android phones, I have to recompile the entire stdlib using the android ndk every time I build the app or networking just doesn't work

[devout vault]

Huh

[pliant snow]

thats interesting

[gaunt wadi]

thankfully recompiling the go stdlib takes literally 10 seconds

or less

hmmm i feel like im in my new profile pic era

ty picture of cat mouse sent me years ago

you were a joy

[pliant snow]

ive never really been tempted to get an android, but knowing you can do stuff like this is changing my tune

[gaunt wadi]

it is an incredible hack, fwiw. I use adb wifi debugging where my phone is the client to it's own adb server to be able to run executables as otherwise permissions disallow executable execution

Tasker is very good, it allows for a large amount of hacking

I also suggest Nova Launcher as a launcher that is highly customizable and looks great

I recently got f-droid the other day and have been experiencing the joy of third party app stores

it's a wild ride

samsung in particular also has a weird semi-official app (good lock) that let you modify more things, like UI elements that traditionally cannot be modified (the lock screen, the notification shade, etc)

[pliant snow]

cat has shuffled off his shackles

[rotund violet]

Wtf Discord, when I try to add an emoji reaction it disappears and the screen shakes?

Anyway, +1 on Nova Launcher which Discord apparently won't let me do the easy way.

3P app stores are also a crazy scene. APKTime is a great one for ATV. (Although it might be a bit of a gray area for me to mention it here...)

[supple ether]

f-droid is wonderful!!

[floral parcel]

That's called someone blocking you lol

[rotund violet]

Oh. Good to know, I guess.

[lethal walrus]

other symptoms of blocking:

• cannot DM
• cannot see about me
• cannot see profile pronouns
• pings will not send the user a notification

[rotund violet]

I see. Since I've never done any of those things, was not apparent. Strange that it would block a reaction, but whatevs.

[lethal walrus]

means you can't bully someone with mean emojis

[deep mason]

Who wants to laugh at AI with me for a minute

Context: I couldn't remember if the ability to move the mailbox was a modded thing only or in vanilla

[pliant snow]

Dont hurt the mailbox's feelings

[deep mason]

Never! But I might hurt its structural integrity

[rotund violet]

It's a load-bearing mailbox.

[gaunt wadi]

45 billion dollars was invested in this and that number is only rising

(i made that number up, the point is, it's a lot for being so obviously wrong)

[deep mason]

Tell me about it. I work in academia in specialized tech and the amount of my faculty that think any of this stuff is good is insane.

[worn remnant]

anything to avoid paying humans for their labor. anything but that

[rotund violet]

Funny thing is that the people doing AI research don't like it either, or at least not the futurist types who are hoping for AGI. They mostly see LLMs as a kind of local maxima that's taking money and attention away from more serious endeavors and setting the course of research back several years.

[fleet wren]

yeah I hate "AIs"/LLMs for the reason most people hate LLMs (plagiarism machines that kills the planet slowly purely to automate away human creativity instead of actual hard labor) but also for more non-obvious reasons (they're not actually intelligent! they're glorified text generators and the fact that too many people treat them like infallible answering encyclopedias that actually "know" what they're saying is making me want to shoot myself. Gods I want AIs as actual intelligent lifeforms like in my movies/video games not whatever the fuck these are raaaagh)

[rain apex]

i dislike how "ask chatgpt" is replacing "just google it"

the latter is at worst full of SEO bs but it wont mislead people with extreme confidence

[leaden marsh]

not that those two aren't becoming synonymous

their AI summary constantly misreads the sites it pulls from too, like, huh???

[rotund violet]

So far not a single LLM has come even remotely close to passing ARC - and we're talking catastrophic fails, like below 3% correctness. But the funny/sad part to me isn't that they can't pass - I mean, we just don't have AGI yet and that's OK - but the funny part is seeing all the mediocrities in the profession be so sure that GPT-whatever will easily, trivially ace it and then seeing the expressions on their faces when it does worse than 20-year-old brute-force tech.

[fleet wren]

And most of the time their so-called magnum opus are just one of four or so freely available models that they put some lipstick - sorry, I meant "tuning" on

Entire startups are being founded around a model licensed from OpenAI and given a couple prompts

[strange copper]

Are they still funding those or have people figured it out yet

[fleet wren]

Bubble's not popped yet. Maybe one day

[rotund violet]

The reality of the "freely available" is also unfortunate, because while the product is technically free-as-in-beer, the research and methods are entirely closed off, largely thanks to OpenAI in particular. They single-handedly changed the industry for the worse, from one where many groups were all sharing information and working toward a common goal to another empty-suited oligarchy.

Oh, funny experience - the other day I was trying to come up with a track name and figured "hey, why I don't try some of the AI generators and see what they come up with" - I went to 4 different sites (IIRC) and 3 of them came up with the exact same set of names. So yeah, everyone's using the same damn LLM, data set and everything. Probably all just going through the same public API.

[lavish oyster]

Most AI-startups are merely OpenAI/Claude wrappers lmao

[pliant snow]

shhh you'll spook the executives

[lavish oyster]

B-b-but langchain i-is the f-future!!`111

[safe dragon]

AI is no longer the future it is the present!

[supple ether]

That bubble can't pop soon enough

I wonder what the next Texh Investor Scam will be

[safe dragon]

the next trend is actually just making good products again to really throw investors for a loop

[pliant snow]

nah its soylent green

[rotund violet]

Is there actually a "langchain" or was that part of the joke?

[safe dragon]

apparently it's real

[rotund violet]

Oh I see, it's "chaining LLMs". It sounded like a really sad portmanteau of LLMs and blockchain.

[safe dragon]

don't give them ideas

I have no idea how you'd even attempt to combine an llm with blockchain but they'll figure it out

[rotund violet]

If you want to be the next billion-dollar startup you need to have LLMs and NFTs in your pitch. Maybe an entire currency for AI-generated books and art!

[safe dragon]

unfortunately to be the next billion dollar startup I have to for some reason decide to live in san fransisco

[rotund violet]

Nahhh it's all remote these days. You just have to know someone that lives in SF.

[safe dragon]

right right

I think I know a few

idk how any of them are able to afford living there but they do

[rotund violet]

They afford it by living like paupers despite their $220k/year salary.

(because it all goes to rent and fancy caffeinated drinks)

[supple ether]

I have an idea. What if we make users passwords for them, with ai, and don't let them change it, to make sure they have a good one

We store them in plain text of course. So we can keep training the ai

[rotund violet]

That's too sane for Silicon Valley.

[safe dragon]

I like it. There's literally no point to use AI for this so let's do it

[supple ether]

I wonder if they'll try the metaverse thing again now that nfts are dying

[fleet wren]

you joke but someone out there probably has an idea for AI-powered authentication where a user chats with an AI and then it determines whether that user is who they are

[safe dragon]

dear god

[supple ether]

That sounds worse than useless

[safe dragon]

more realistically an AI support chatbot that is actually capable of sending you password reset emails based on whether it "believes" you are actually that account's owner

[supple ether]

That sounds plausible enough to convince investors who know nothing about ai while also leaning heavily on the inherent weaknesses of ai. Perfect fit for a startup!

[safe dragon]

just gotta make sure you cash out before your AI is in the news for giving the wrong people account access

[rotund violet]

I'm thinking AI-powered checkout. No need to go to all that trouble to set up debit/credit cards, just take a selfie and it automatically pulls the money out of your account(s).

[safe dragon]

that's not too far off from the existing products

usually called "checkout-free shopping"

[supple ether]

I've been to a few places that already have those

Well okay not with face cam

You still need your card

[rain apex]

How does it work? Do you need to have an acc w/ finance info already

[supple ether]

I've been to places where it uses ai to figure out what you bought

[rain apex]

Do you have to dispute if they get it wrong

[rotund violet]

How does it work? Do you need to have an acc w/ finance info already

You'll have to have a bank account or card, but instead of giving it to any vendor, you just give it to the AI and let it pay for everything.

[safe dragon]

from what I remember looking at them in the past they shit the bed the moment you shop as a group and it has no idea what's going on

[rotund violet]

I call it... GenPoA

[rain apex]

Wow I can redirect those debt collectors to the AI too

[rotund violet]

Trust me, everyone will want to use it. I know I would.

[supple ether]

Oh yes I love being part of the panopticon I love having my face everywhere

[rotund violet]

Just imagine how much more convenient everything would be if you never had to deal with a bank again and were forced able to pay for everything via a mysterious chatbot dispensing funds from an account you know nothing about.

[safe dragon]

the dream

I love having less control

[rain apex]

Wechat pay is halfway there tbh

[gaunt wadi]

all of these are backed by hundreds of barely paid workers in poor countries manually verifying purchases

the ml models probably help so that people don't need to do everything, but it's not fully automated like they try to make you think

[safe dragon]

when ur AI is actually just outsourcing

[supple ether]

I am not surprised

[pliant snow]

Here at AquovAI, we'll happily take your money and make the purchases that you don't even know you need

AquovAI -- You don't trust us, yet™️

[gaunt wadi]

checks purchase history an industrial strength bubble machine and 30 liters of extra strong bubble solution??? how did it know

[safe dragon]

unfortunately the address it was sent to seems to be aquo's

[pliant snow]

we have to ensure quality

a very thorough testing procedure before we feel confident enough to send it on to you

[rotund violet]

Purchase history? No no no, you're missing the point - live in the moment! Let the AI do your thinking for you! Don't worry about things like "history" or "logs". If you're running out, we'll detect that and automatically ship more!

[pliant snow]

I think that's literally what Amazon wants Alexa to be

[safe dragon]

yeah

[rotund violet]

Just throw in some drone delivery and they'll never have to deal with actual humans anymore.

Isn't that the dream of every tech giant?

[safe dragon]

imagine having to deal with other people we should just all have private pods and no communication with others other than our AI overlord

[pliant snow]

Amazon's issue is that despite selling hundreds of millions of the damn things, they somehow lost money on alexa, because they want to somehow turn it into a subscription thing to do.. something

[rotund violet]

Bay area mentality is: first make people dependent on your product, then figure out how to "monetize" it.

[safe dragon]

never underestimate the ability of a multi-billion dollar company to lose money on something that made more money than some nations do a year

[rotund violet]

Sometimes that doesn't work, but when it does...

[safe dragon]

that wonderful customer acquisition stage where they seem benevolent only to destroy their own product once they have the users

[rotund violet]

Sometimes I wonder about the cause and effect. Many are, no doubt, totally cynical about the whole process and want to do exactly that. Others, I think, really want to "change the world" but are so incompetent at business that when it finally dawns on them 3 years in that they need to actually have revenue in order to keep doing business, all they can do is sell out to cynical investors/VCs.

[pliant snow]

and their product wont really change the world in the first place lol

[rotund violet]

I'd settle for just changing the flooring, but I'm just not the ambitious type I suppose.

[rain apex]

I want to be charitable and think that their ambition just collapsed when faced with implementation

[rotund violet]

Perhaps. But they often succeed beyond their wildest expectations at the implementation, technologically speaking; they just fail catastrophically at execution in a business sense.

(I'm not counting LLMs in this bucket, which fall far short of anyone's reasonable expectations)

[cinder karma]

Latex is fun

[safe dragon]

are you sure

[rain apex]

It's better than word

[cinder karma]

I wanted to make an uncouth joke but I cant

Anyways

[safe dragon]

lmao

[cinder karma]

You would think that I could make it so the program would line break between my bullet points

But not within a bullet point

I've hacked around it but it is a painnnnn

[safe dragon]

no I don't think

[cinder karma]

Lol

[cinder karma]

The nerd posted again!

[safe dragon]

the one and only

[cinder karma]

https://youtu.be/XRCprhlz4D8?si=9DY9x9puUQwpVPfw

[safe dragon]

oh yes

I do agree that he is the nerd

[sonic mirage]

Anyone have any experience with Mattermost? https://mattermost.com/solutions/mattermost-gitlab/
Our company is mostly looking for an instant messaging app/solution to use for systems and app dev. They've been trialing Teams and recently Slack, but they are suddenly very excited about Mattermost.

We use a local GitLab, for reference

[safe dragon]

we just use slack happily

never tried mattermost

[sonic mirage]

It's apparently very open source, even

[safe dragon]

the mostest opensource

[lucid orbit]

In my opinion teams is very bad. I had to use that for school and I hated it. Never worked correctly and so on. Often happened that channels didn't show etc.

[gaunt wadi]

i usually fold pieces of paper into airplanes and throw them at my coworkers when I need to send a message

works well in my experience

[lucid orbit]

that's genius

[safe dragon]

some of my colleagues live on the other side of the country

actually

some love on the other side of the continent

[rain apex]

Have you tried carrier pigeons

[safe dragon]

my hometown actually has a club dedicated to training carrier pigeons

[crystal wren]

So far... an SSD swap from my old laptop worked shockingly perfectly.

[lucid orbit]

ohh nice a framework

I would still go ahead and do a clean windows install. @crystal wren

[rain apex]

nah you should use it until it dies, and tell us about the experiance

[lucid orbit]

Well you've got a point

[pliant snow]

a fine machine

[lucid orbit]

I love the Framework laptops. But I have an HP cause Framework is really expensive

[safe dragon]

my laptop is older than Framework so it wasn't an option

[lucid orbit]

But I only use my laptop for some lightroom editing on holidays and some stardew modding.

For the heavy things I have my Desktop

[crystal wren]

https://frame.work/gb/en/marketplace?outlet[]=Factory+seconds

Reasons I got a factory seconds one!

[lucid orbit]

oh they are cheap lol

[crystal wren]

No RAM or storage, but that doesn't add a TON on top.

[lucid orbit]

I know.

I bought my HP without windows and Installed all that myself...

got it for 350€. Has an 12th gen I5 16gb ram and 512gb m.2

thats plenty for what I do

[crystal wren]

Sounds like I nearly got a similar laptop... so tempted by a second-hand Elitebook with how upgradable it was, but this won out in the end.

[lucid orbit]

well the framwork is a solid laptop nonetheless

[sonic mirage]

I set my dad up with a Framework. I bought the DIY one, put it together and gave it to him, haven't heard an issue since

And that was before they even had AMD options yet

Or maybe the AMD option was annouced but not available for a long time? Either way, it's been solid enough that I haven't gotten tech support calls about it

[lucid orbit]

So my problem with my parents is that they always want to have all their data on one drive. This means they want to buy a new 2 tb ssd for me to upgrade their pc with just to put it full with photos they'll never look at again that would be way safer on an external disk

and they also want me to clone the old drive to the new one

I can't understand that

[rotund violet]

Doesn't seem hard to understand. They want everything to be faster/better but nothing to actually change. That's the dominant mindset outside tech, "don't mess with my stuff".

Frankly, I wish more tech companies would get the hint with their own products: fix the bugs, make it faster/more stable, stop adding features no one wants and generally screwing around.

[safe dragon]

but how will you tell investors that your plan is to just make the product good instead of adding headline catching features no one needs

[rotund violet]

The only winning move (to investors) is not to play.

Fund your own business or get private funding, like humanity did for a few thousand years.

[safe dragon]

and for the parents thing. Yeah I mean they just want what they're used to already cause it's familiar and it has worked for them so far

just like how I don't think I will ever convince my parents to use a password manager instead of a piece of paper in a drawer they keep losing and then stressing about

[rotund violet]

I've spent my entire life in tech and I think I'm closer to that old-fogey mentality than I am to any of my peers. I hate seeing update notifications. I don't want to buy new crap. I don't even want it for free. Unless what I got was super-broken in the first place, just leave it alone.

[lucid orbit]

they already have an ssd right now

so it wouldn't get any faster

[safe dragon]

I mean I doubt they care about it being fast they just want more space

[lucid orbit]

yes

[rotund violet]

It might be riddled with adware and such, knowing how those things usually go. So faster is a bonus.

(For which, of course, a wipe is far better than a hardware upgrade, but don't even bother trying to explain that)

[lucid orbit]

the pc is full of adware. it was already upgraded from win 7 to win 10

[safe dragon]

at least your parents want an ssd upgrade... My dad is a hobby photographer and so far whenever he runs out of storage for his photos he buys a completely new laptop with more storage

[rotund violet]

I can respect the shutterbug mentality but I'll never understand it. I think all the photos I've taken wouldn't even fill a 4 GB flash drive, never mind a 2 TB hard disk.

[lucid orbit]

but with win 10 service end around the corner i would like to upgrade to win 11. But they have like 1tb of old data they do not need (just photos that would be safer on an hdd raid config on my home server) If they just let me copy that data on my server but no it needs to be on one single drive because one drive is safer than multiple hdds in a raid config

[safe dragon]

I also enjoy photography as a hobby so no comment there. A single raw file is like 50 MB these days though

doesn't take much

[lucid orbit]

I do photograph as well

[rotund violet]

I will upgrade to Win11 when pigs fly or when my entire house and all off-site backups burn down.

[lucid orbit]

You using a Sony or Canon? Sounds like a higher MP camera like an R5 or an A7

[safe dragon]

fujifilm x100v

[rotund violet]

(whichever comes first)

[lucid orbit]

oh nice one

but expensive

[safe dragon]

my dad uses some canon thing I don't know what

he's gone through like 6

[lucid orbit]

I have like 500 gb of photos on an old drive right now that could die any minute so I shouldn't say anything either. But I am currently working on a Raid NAS

[safe dragon]

I can't upgrade to windows 11 cause I don't use windows

ez

[lucid orbit]

Linux rules?

[safe dragon]

my work pc is windows 11 tho. I was required to update at some point by work

as far as I've been able to tell windows 11 is just windows 10 with a few things made worse

[lucid orbit]

yes

[safe dragon]

and no improvements

[lucid orbit]

and I hate MS for that

[safe dragon]

I'm still very much in the stage where I like trying new things even just for the sake of it but windows 11 just doesn't have anything to offer as far as I've been able to notice

[lucid orbit]

yes

the step from win 10 to win 11 is a big thing for my parents

[safe dragon]

they still haven't even added a feature that has been on every linux distribution I've ever used which is the ability to hold super/windows key and drag a window without having to specifically drag the title bar

I know there's a tool you can download which adds that

[lucid orbit]

but like I know MS the first thing to happen after the win 10 shutdown is the release of win 12 because why not

[safe dragon]

I have 1 application at work that we develop which by design doesn't have a titlebar and it's a nightmare without a keybind to drag move it

[rotund violet]

Win11 makes it a lot more difficult to purge the ads.

And other general nastiness (location tracking, Outlook logins, etc.).

It's all still technically possible, AFAIK, just a much bigger headache.

[safe dragon]

idk there's no ads in my windows 11 installation but I assume that's just cause it's a company installation thing

[lucid orbit]

mine doesnt have ads as well

[rotund violet]

When I say "ads" I'm not necessarily talking about popups, just the garbage Microsoft keeps putting into start menus and such. "Surely you must want news and weather here? And while you're at it, we'll recommend some software!"

("No, Microsoft, I really just want the programs I've installed. Is that so hard to understand?") -> ("????")

[safe dragon]

I am so used at this point to instantly start typing the name of an app when I open the start menu that I don't actually know what's in there anymore

I don't think I've even given it enough time to load

which it does sometimes need a fair bit of time for...

[rotund violet]

They're using the Facebook/Nextdoor strategy. "Users keep disabling all our privacy/advertising settings, so let's put more ads/features behind newer settings."

[lucid orbit]

never noticed any ads

[safe dragon]

I do remember from before I switched to linux I'd have random shit like some facebook esque mobile games in there

bubble saga or some shit

[lucid orbit]

yeah thats the bloatware that comes with the prebuilt install of windows

like windows on prebuilt pcs

[safe dragon]

I mean I suppose technically windows has had preinstalled games for a very very long time but I'm nostalgic for space cadet pinball so it gets a pass

[rotund violet]

On Windows 10, there are:

• "News and interests" in the taskbar
• "Show more tiles on Start"
• "Show suggestions occasionally in Start"
• "Show account-related notifications" (Outlook.com sign-in spamming)
• Lock screen background (default to Windows spotlight)

...and I think a few others. And this is relatively tame compared to Win11.

Maybe some of these things don't bother you and you don't notice.

[safe dragon]

I like the lockscreen tbh

just look at some pretty rocks before work starts

[rotund violet]

If it was just pictures, I'd have been OK with it, but they had to start jamming headlines and various promotional messages on top.

[safe dragon]

oh yeah I don't know what they say I haven't read them

🙏

I don't like windows in the slightest

I remember spending a lot of time trying to tell cortana to fuck off

[rotund violet]

Oh yeah, that too.

[lucid orbit]

oh yeah cortana whats that again jk but i hate it

I love the simplicity of linux

apt-get is the best thing

[rotund violet]

I don't remember all the Group Policy settings I had to mess with. The Windows Update behavior is obnoxious, too; in theory I wouldn't mind getting automatic security updates and such, but Microsoft still has not figured out how to install updates without rebooting 48 times.

[lucid orbit]

I currently have kali and win 11 on my laptop

[rotund violet]

(and of course, an update is never just a security update, there's always some new ads or bloat or other undesirable nonsense attached)

[safe dragon]

the worst part about cortana for me was that it literally doesn't work in my country cause it doesn't support the netherlands, but instead of it just not being there I'd just get a popup thing telling me cortana isn't available in my region

like yes, I know. Now go away

I think eventually some EU law thing caused them to have to change that cause it's gone now

[lucid orbit]

i really dont like cortana

[safe dragon]

cortana is old news now

it's all about copilot now

to make things very easy to understand they've named like 4 different products copilot

but I shouldn't expect the company that came up with the name Xbox Series X to be good at naming things

[pliant snow]

they didnt come up with the Xbox One R tho

[safe dragon]

Xbox One R?

[pliant snow]

the elusive xboner

[safe dragon]

oh of course

only the xbonex and xbones

[lucid orbit]

lol

[rotund violet]

To be fair, isn't it different companies all using the same name? I guess since MS owns GitHub you could count then both as MS.

[safe dragon]

if not counting github copilot you'd at least still have both the copilot that'll be built into windows 11 itself soon and the copilot that's embedded into the office suite

and I feel like there's another

[lucid orbit]

I don't understand the big ai hype

[rotund violet]

If the copilots were actually copilots as opposed to nattering empty-headed backseat drivers with low impulse control, I suppose the names would be appropriate.

[safe dragon]

I followed GPT development from GPT2 onwards so I understand the nerdy excitement from the researchers seeing what is possible with the technology

but

[lucid orbit]

yeah but I mean the AI Product hype

[safe dragon]

then from ChatGPT and afterwards...

[lucid orbit]

with everyone doing AI products now

that have nothing to do with ai

[safe dragon]

shoutout to the logitech mouse with an AI button

[rotund violet]

It's just like every other tech advancement. Starts out as something cool and potentially useful, suits turn it into overhyped trash. In some sense it's just the human condition, like music being overplayed 'til hearing it again feels like having your ears dragged over a cheese grater; or memes being posted again and again with progressively unfunnier captions until they completely lose all meaning.

[safe dragon]

we've also had people in management yell about how we need to start using AI but they've yet to figure anything out we'd actually do with it cause pretty much everything we do has little to no tolerance for error since it's transactional/financial stuff

[lucid orbit]

thats good

[safe dragon]

and with AI I mean the LLM shit in this case

there are legitimately usecases for some kind of AI system in some specific spots

[rotund violet]

Also that "AI" invokes the dream of what narrower circles refer to as AGI; if they had to call it just "LLMs", "chatbots" and so on, I think the manager of Municipal Water Department #156 would be a lot less enthused.

It's that "I" - the "intelligence" - which is the critical element that these strains of "AI" lack entirely.

[safe dragon]

reminds me of when there was news constantly about random billionaires or tech bros claiming they believe AGI is right around the corner as if they have any fucking idea what they're talking about

[cinder karma]

First time I've seen docs literally go "and check out our YouTube for better instructions"

[rotund violet]

Ray Kurzweil is a smart guy, but while he understands technology, I don't think he understands humans, which are a critical element in the singularity equation.

[cinder karma]

Anyways, enjoy the markov chain generation

[safe dragon]

I haven't heard the term markov chain in many years

I don't think I've come across it since university

[safe dragon]

also like and subscribe and hit that notification bell so you stay up to date on tips and tricks for our library

[lucid orbit]

good one

[cinder karma]

We used to put meeting minutes into a markov chain generator

[devout vault]

Been a while since I heard anything about markov chains

[cinder karma]

Okay their YouTube channel isn't useless

It's just not useful to me

(It would help if I was trying to dismantle the item for cleaning)

[candid pilot]

oh i didn't even know about that. it's alt + drag on my mint

[safe dragon]

it's either alt or super yeah

[candid pilot]

good to know!

[safe dragon]

it's very handy

with right click drag instead it resizes

[candid pilot]

only up and down for me though

[safe dragon]

depends where your cursor was located

[candid pilot]

oh really!?

thats so cool omg

[safe dragon]

I never move or resize windows without using this

having to precision aim some 1 pixel border to resize

nasty

[candid pilot]

yeah this makes that so much simpler

[safe dragon]

as far as I can tell it's a standard across all of Linux

even gnome

[candid pilot]

and windows doesn't have it...

only time i've really regretted a little removing windows from this laptop is wanting to play games not through wine. but also it's just stuff like skyrim so im probably better off. i mainly play stardew/terraria/minecraft/etc. anyway lol

[safe dragon]

in sure skyrim works fine through proton/lutris

though modding might be rough...

[candid pilot]

yeah modding was the thing

i heard it's a nothing game without some mods yk

and it barely worked. it's skyrim though so idk. there's better games.

disco elysium has worked just fine through wine so far and that's the only game i would have to use wine for that i actually care a lot about

i need my pathetic cop playtime.

[safe dragon]

are you trying to just use wine itself or proton/lutris

[candid pilot]

i've figured out steam's adaptions for a few games yeah

[safe dragon]

you'll have a lot more success using those than base wine in my experience even with winetricks

[candid pilot]

genuinely though i don't play a ton of videogames and it's usually a lot of the same

so it's fine yk

[safe dragon]

looks like skyrim mods can work

[crystal wren]

Sometimes it's middle click instead of right click for the resizing, too!

But whenever I need to be on Windows, I use AltDrag to get that functionality back. I just can't live without it.

[pliant snow]

yo wtf

[crystal wren]

Yeeeeah, you need this thing for that: https://stefansundin.github.io/altdrag/

[safe dragon]

though that one is abandoned

there's altsnap that's still maintained

which is just a fork of altdrag

[crystal wren]

Oh, sweet!

Also, I've made the decision to dedicate the entire SSD of the Framework to Linux after realising...

https://frame.work/gb/en/products/storage-expansion-card-2nd-gen?v=FRACCFBZ02-2

I can just have Windows on one of these and slap it in there if I ever need it.

[pliant snow]

ye, or just a VM

what distro u runnin

[crystal wren]

Undecided right now...

Arch on my main desktop, but considering the laptop might go periods of time without being used, I'm a little wary to just put Arch on it.

[safe dragon]

my laptop just has linux mint on it

and even then I think it's a version of linux mint behind at this point

[pliant snow]

smh

[turbid eagle]

how would this thing walk

or move around

[safe dragon]

is that a programming question

[turbid eagle]

yes

ima make it into like

a pet

or ima try to make it to a pet

[safe dragon]

I feel like it'd just kinda hop like a south park character

[cinder karma]

/sneaks in

This makes me happy

I enjoy squishing the big cable

[strange copper]

Cardigan?

[cinder karma]

Yes!

[gaunt wadi]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1023360698245464154/1266629814530474036/pufferbooty.png?ex=66a68130&is=66a52fb0&hm=c40ee10cae1837c3167e145d0ad2e44fd7966678c65b23de272a30f1c59452dd&

[hardy jewel]

CAT

you thought you could hide......

we cannot unleash the booty........

[ancient sluice]

CYATT!

[safe dragon]

incredible

[cinder karma]

@rain apex in the before times before I knew about dataclasses

I would always declare my python classes with __slots__

To avoid the overhead of __dict__

I also wrote my own decorators to take the slots field and generate a basic init and repr

Oh, and compare

Needless to say my coworkers like that I know about dataclasses now lol

[rain apex]

how terror but i also did this b4, when i was go from C/C++ to py

[cerulean bay]

is bro really posting pufferass everywhere?!?!? ⁉️

[dark veldt]

(it's pufferbooty, cough)

[gaunt wadi]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1023360698245464154/1266629814530474036/pufferbooty.png?ex=66a7d2b0&is=66a68130&hm=953e308446f31b34fff68e97ebba1601cc45839f7ddf72744ae05b1117caea64&

[thin estuary]

https://github.com/dotnet/csharplang/blob/18a527bcc1f0bdaf542d8b9a189c50068615b439/proposals/TypeUnions.md

[safe dragon]

oooo

as a big fan of rust enums

this isn't quite that but...

I want

[cinder karma]

Ooh

[safe dragon]

I didn't notice before but I see they casually put Option and Result at the bottom of the proposal

please add them

they'd be easy to write manually with this but I'd like there to be built in support for these two...

especially result currently has no good alternative

unless you consider the way golang does it a good alternative where you basically get a tuple back where the second argument is an error if there was one

[rotund violet]

I doubt we'd get the ? postfix even if they implemented Option or Result which is half of what makes them so useful. But it's a step in the right direction, assuming it gets a champion.

[fleet wren]

not a fan of if err != nil { return err } every other 3rd line I take it

but yeah I hope something like ? makes it in even though it won't - we can't repeat Go's cardinal sin

[cinder karma]

? Is already used for nullable

[fleet wren]

Ok we can use ¿ instead

I paid for the entire Unicode character space Imma use the entire Unicode character space

[cinder karma]

May I suggest the 🤷 keyword

[rain apex]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[safe dragon]

var result = CallFallibleMethod()🙏

[rotund violet]

Operators can have contextual meanings; there's no reason ? couldn't mean one thing in a ternary, another thing in an elvis, and a third (or fourth or nth, I'm sure I missed a few uses) for an option/result guard. But I don't think it'll happen because it just adds too much to the scope.

[safe dragon]

issue in this case would be that it'd be in the exact same spot as the null coalescing operator would be for a nullable function so you wouldn't know without checking the function's type signature manually

I don't really mind going for something slightly more verbose or just a different character

I mostly just want result

all the niceties on top of that can come later

[thin estuary]

What would CallFallibleMethod’s return type here be?

[pliant snow]

Any

[safe dragon]

Result<ValueType, ErrorType>

I suppose

the same as it'd be in rust

which is what I'm basing this on

[thin estuary]

…and what would the operator do?

[safe dragon]

if you're calling that method from another method that also returns a result, the operators allows you to basically do an early return and pass along the error, or if it's succesful result would be assigned the value and you'd continue normally

it's kind like ! in c# except instead of throwing an exception it passes along the error as a result

[thin estuary]

Okay makes sense

I’ve never used a language that had that

Swift doesn’t, Kotlin doesn’t

[safe dragon]

it helps clean rust code up a bit since manually unwrapping the result type every time can get rather ugly

mug like golang's if err != nil everywhere

[thin estuary]

I guess Swift exceptions/errors are kinda similar? Kinda

[safe dragon]

idk swift but a quick google seems to show the try keyword

and guard let

much like rust's if let

I should try swift someday maybe

[rotund violet]

How about ??? It's easier to type than the shruggie but conveys the same meaning.

(Not serious. Well, not 100% serious.)

[safe dragon]

unlimited number of question marks are supported for conveying just how confused you'd be if it did fail

[rotund violet]

I kind of like the idea of var thing = service.GetThing(id)?????????

[rain apex]

So what is advantage of this vs usual route of throwing the err?

[safe dragon]

it's explicitly defined in the type definition that a method can fail so you don't rely on someone not forgetting to document all the exceptions in a method summary

you can't "forget" to deal with the possibility of it failing

depending on the type that you use for your error type you can also specify what kind of errors you can get so you can handle each case(which also itself benefits from these type unions to allow you to do that)

and for C# specifically I suppose there's another thing and that's that throwing exceptions in C# is actually incredibly slow and can really slow down your response time for scenarios where something does go wrong

[rain apex]

wow what why is C# like this

knowing the exception type sounds good though im sold

[safe dragon]

much like the explicit ? marker for values that can be nullable in C# nowadays, result would allow for explicitly stating your method can fail within the type definition

Option isn't as useful since ? does most of what its intended to do already in C#

[rotund violet]

Result types can also be combined and then coalesced into an Option so you don't need a million consecutive catches or some horrendous alternative like catch (Exception), you can write code that "aborts on any kind of failure" without breaking control flow.

If you're writing any kind of high-performance code then it's a vast improvement. Stack unwinding is hideously expensive during exception throw/catch.

[safe dragon]

yeah

[rotund violet]

Plus, they're just semantically different. Throwing an exception says "I can't continue because something outside of my control went very wrong." Result says "I understood your request but am refusing to honor it."

[safe dragon]

rust is a little clearer in the naming. There throwing an exception is called panic!. Very clearly states like "this was not supposed to happen, help"

[rotund violet]

Indeed. You can't catch a panic, mind you (as far as I know), so it's not quite the same thing, but it's the closest analogue.

[safe dragon]

I'm still mad at the AWS cognito library for C# which handled anything other than the happy path by throwing an exception

[safe dragon]

you can with panic::catch_unwind

but no one uses it as far as I can tell cause people don't like unwinding panics

I think almost everyone uses panic abort

[rotund violet]

Wow, yeah, didn't know that existed and would be afraid to use it.

The idea that I could write a panic that doesn't actually cause a panic is kind of scary.

[rain apex]

how pythonic of them

[safe dragon]

I believe the original idea behind its inclusion would be to allow someone to do what Erlang and the other BEAM VM languages do which is define failure recovery systems so that if a service panics you can basically define a recovery function which "rebuilds" the service in case of failure

but then they never really commited to that kind of error handling

it works very well for Erlang

but that's a very different kind of language

and is generally handled by "supervisors"

erlang was also built with the primary purpose being maximizing uptime for telecom infrastructure so that's a very specific usecase

so rust's attempt with panic unwind really really caught on

[cinder karma]

I like panicking

Not panic

Just panicking

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[safe dragon]

same

[cinder karma]

Speaking of Mondays

Why is it every time I accidentally leave my lunch on the kitchen counter it's a Monday

Mondays have a curse to them

[safe dragon]

they do

luckily I work from home so the kitchen counter is nearby

[cinder karma]

C# has the Try pattern which is supposed to handle this but Result would be nicer

[fleet wren]

Ugh I hate the Try pattern for no logical reason. It's just, idk, unnatural

[rotund violet]

Pattern-matching makes the "try pattern" mostly obsolete, it's just hanging on from sheer inertia.

[cinder karma]

Sometkmws you can't return null though

[safe dragon]

if we have result someday we'll finally have a nice logical thing to return when null isn't a good option

[rain apex]

do yall have a favorite email client

[safe dragon]

nope

I just use whatever website/app comes with my email provider

[cinder karma]

/dev/null

[rain apex]

fair enough, i was conned into using 1 because vivaldi browser has it built in but it is jank so i want to try something else

[fleet wren]

used to use Thunderbird, still do occasionally, but now I mostly just use the apps on my phone

[pliant snow]

I used thunderbird for many years and still like it, although i mainly use the web interface for my service now

[safe dragon]

I mostly just avoid needing to use email

[rotund violet]

I wouldn't call it a favorite, but Betterbird is okay. Still slow AF, but not as buggy as Thunderbird.

I should probably try Bluemail, I use it on Android and didn't realize they also had a Windows client until I checked right this second.

[floral parcel]

I've always used built-in mail apps that come with Windows. It's actually starting to get annoying because Microsoft recently shut down the mail app that comes pre-installed with windows and essentially replaced it with the online version of outlook, which has advertisements in it. I probably need to find a new mail app to use.

[marble jewel]

I use the Outlook application. I'm very familiar with its UI and options since I use it all day at work.

[cinder karma]

See I fucking hate outlook

[safe dragon]

weeks go by where I don't even open my mail for work

[marble jewel]

I wouldn't say I love it, but it's very familiar to me

[floral parcel]

when you pay for office, it's fine, but imagine having advertisement in your built-in operating system applications.

[marble jewel]

I'll add that I gave Thunderbird a chance. I used it for months, but found the overall experience to be lacking. Sometimes it would just stop syncing my emails, and the only solution I could find was to remove and add my accounts.

Nothing really beats the dedicated mobile apps for each of my email accounts though

[cinder karma]

Yeah thunderbird is pretty bad

Tbh nothing beats Gmail in my book

Which is sad

Since the price is privacy

For my personal email I use proton

[lethal walrus]

*sits in thunderbird user*

[floral parcel]

my college uses outlook for everybody's emails, so I've found myself using multiple mail clients lol

[safe dragon]

my uni used gmail

and now my work uses gmail

[rotund violet]

I used to use the old Win7/Win10 mail app and liked it a lot, but I gave MS the finger when they tried to force migration to Outlook.

It's not even that I hate Outlook per se, but the minute it tried to tell me that I had to pass along my credentials so that it could store my (personal, IMAP/POP) email in its cloud, I noped out of it permanently. That was over a year ago and they still haven't even hinted at changing it, as far as I know.

[pliant snow]

I have now printed on a linux computer for the first time in my life

It was surprisingly easy, although I did have to edit the driver installer script for my model

[safe dragon]

so far for printing on linux I've just... pressed print

and that was that

unlike windows where you have to install some fucked up weird canon inkjet utility program for it to do anything

[rotund violet]

Depends on the printer, probably. Some support generic PostScript drivers, others don't.

[pliant snow]

i had to actually install the packages for it and shit

[fleet wren]

my last printer has a link to a Linux driver in a convenient .deb package, and supports wireless printing. I was this close to finding their HQ location and mailing my firstborn there

(wireless as in "connects to the local LAN with password protection, and not a single step further", not one of those hackable web-connected printer, so that's bonus points)

[safe dragon]

my mom's printer meanwhile has seemingly just decided to stop printing color

[pliant snow]

Was it a Brother

[fleet wren]

surprisingly no. it was a Pantum (which was the cheapest option for a starving college student)

[pliant snow]

Brother had .deb and .rpm drivers for each model, I was shocked

[cinder karma]

What you don't lpr?

[pliant snow]

do you even lpr bro

[gaunt wadi]

https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/lpr.1.html

-o job-sheets=name
            Prints a cover page (banner) with the document.  The "name"
            can be "classified", "confidential", "secret", "standard",
            "topsecret", or "unclassified".

lpr is now my primary means of submitting print jobs

cannot believe they didn't carry this option over in modern print UX

YES, MY DOCUMENTS ARE TOPSECRET

the document in question:

(internet cat)

[cinder karma]

I don't know if this is normal but during uni we would regularly lpr to each other's printer accounts

[grave stag]

Excuse me I'm not a coder myself but I need you guys to help me can you write a discord script That will block square words like the F-word the d word and the s word Please I need really need your help

[lethal walrus]

https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/4421269296535-AutoMod-FAQ

[cinder karma]

...Elizabeth did you not lpr

[sand frost]

Nope!

Maybe 🤭

[worn remnant]

normal. i've heard tales from Before My Time about absolutely open networks where you could (and students frequently did) send characters, and therefore input, to anyone else's terminal without so much as a confirmation

[cinder karma]

Oh we would send each other trains

This is especially good to use on your friend who said three hours ago they were going to go to sleep but still hasn't

Suddenly your ssh terminal is sl

[sand frost]

Hahaha I know the trains

[latent bough]

thought the hidden message here was interesting

purple, near the center

[pliant snow]

and yet there you are

[cinder karma]

Oh dear I have made a mistake

In this cardigan

Do I fix it

[fleet wren]

depends on what kind of mistake it is, could be a unique touch

[cinder karma]

One column of stitches is supposed to be seed stitch not reverse stockinette

I literally have not noticed for 48 rows

It's not really noticeable from the right side....but I fixed it anyways lol

(In knitting you can drop down a single column and just fix that, I didn't need to rip back 48 full rows lol

[violet gale]

oh no, my buddy wants my help to code unreal engine

[safe dragon]

unreal engine itself

[crystal wren]

Huzzah!

[thin estuary]

Oh? Can you link that?

I’ve had some problems debugging my own stuff lately too

In Cobalt Core

And we use a very similar ModBuildConfig

[sonic mirage]

Looks like this one: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/RIDER-112901

[upbeat turtle]

Neat! I use Rider, too. Pretty much the only IDE that works with SdV out of the box on Linux. {MS Code is NOT an IDE}

[safe dragon]

not that that has worked for me out of the box regardless

[upbeat turtle]

I'm debugger-less. 😢

[safe dragon]

it happens to the best of us

[devout vault]

I had a dream last night I got a framework laptop

[safe dragon]

was it a good dream

did it live up to your expectations

[ivory shadow]

Better than my dream. I was driving an RV for no discernable reason and nothing happened. It was basically Desert Bus: the Dream

[devout vault]

All I remember is playing with the slots on the bottom for the ports, swapping things in and out. It was entertaining from the few seconds I remember

[rain apex]

do u have opinion on framework 16, with the funny keyboard modules

[devout vault]

My dreams are usually really unhinged (a recent one involved accidentally destroying the time stream and having to recreate it with crayons I got from shooting a cannon through my childhood bedroom wall), so one that mundane is really surprising

[cinder karma]

I recently had a dream where I inherited this random rube Goldberg house

[crystal wren]

https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/RIDER-112901/Rider-fails-to-attach-debugger-to-an-instance-of-SMAPI-Stardew-Valley

There you go!

[crystal wren]

That's the funny part! I can attach the debugger just fine to Stardew/SMAPI in VSCode, but not Rider. (All on Linux too, to be clear.)

[cinder karma]

It was built into a hill

There was a McDonald's slide between different rooms

[devout vault]

Sounds exciting

[fleet wren]

speaking of dreams, there was a period of time when I can reliably (as in like ~~50%~~30% of the time) lucid dream, but only during afternoon naps, on a bed, and I must be some level of sleep deprived beforehand
I don't do much of either nowadays so haven't had one in a while

basically have to straddle that weird spot between wakefulness and sleep

[cinder karma]

What, do you not exist permanently sleep deprived?

(I think the last time I wasn't sleep deprived I was probably 14 years old.)

[fleet wren]

I am still a little deprived lol, but nothing compares to the ol days of "staying up to 3am playing games and wake up for class at 7"

[devout vault]

I basically always lucid dream - but I found controlling it all the time got boring, so instead I just do crazy shenanigans in repsonse to the Dream Plot ™️

A fair bit of my dreams end up being a creative arms race against my brain

[rain apex]

my sleep schedule improves significantly whenever i escape the hyperfixations

being on this seaver is bad for me cus ppl always post such interesting questions at 1am

[safe dragon]

no one says anything till you're about to go to bed and then you end up talking for 3 more hours

[cinder karma]

It's amazing just how annoying inheritance in python is

Trying to figure out if I'm accidentally shadowinf

[cinder karma]

How is corporate file sharing thissss bad

Also apparently this notation in python

blah: dict[str, Any]

Abuses indexing notation

[cinder karma]

Seriously

[safe dragon]

another day, another security vulnerability blocking our builds

except in this case the vulnerability is entirely irrelevant to us

adds warning to ignored list

[pliant snow]

my home server's syncthing got completely corrupted, not sure what happened there

[safe dragon]

uh oh

[cinder karma]

Slight things thar annoyed me today

Python: True

Toml: true

You're a markup language, could you not have spared the case sensitivity

[safe dragon]

no

[fleet wren]

side note, but I feel like Python is being the weirdo here - I don't know a single other language that capitalizes their bools

[safe dragon]

visual basic

both vba and vb.net

I don't think that helps their case

[regal ingot]

Mathematica. Haskell.

[safe dragon]

depending on the kind of person that definitely does not help their case

I don't care which it is though

hell in elixir it's :true aka with a colon in front and I still don't mind

[regal ingot]

I was fine with #t and #f in scheme. It's only annoying when you are switching languages often enough that your muscle memory types the wrong one for the language

[safe dragon]

at work we have some cursed custom built configuration thing that supports booleans which doesn't use true or false but yes or no

or alternatively the same but in dutch

waar or onwaar also supported which is basically dutch for true or false

[cinder karma]

Yup

Was quickly disabling part of a test suite (in toml) and kept shooting myself in the foot with capitalization

[fleet wren]

aussie language with yeahnah and nahyeah

[regal ingot]

we should use 1 and 0 like Kernigan and/or Ritchie intended

[cinder karma]

Is there popcnt in python?

I guess that was a stupid question

(bin(x).count('1') works)

[rain apex]

https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#int.bit_count

U said u secretly moved work's python to 3.11 right

[cinder karma]

Ooh sweet

[devout vault]

Small little console library (standalone from SDV) I did for my SMAPI PR https://github.com/spacechase0/ConsoleWrapperLib

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/311167152503783424/1268704877920522322/WindowsTerminal_VvxS0iqj7P.mp4?ex=66ad64fe&is=66ac137e&hm=0c4b48c2b83ade0934ef8fb2e284ce7fd5c48dd56bd7f4d79d09c6e0feb75b81&

Also supports colors fine (since SMAPI needed that) and history + autocompletion

[lethal walrus]

Fancy

[cinder karma]

It's a Friday night

Let me start an argument

[upbeat turtle]

Funkin' Friday Night?

[cinder karma]

Java: net good for the world or net bad

[strange copper]

net good

but i would specifically apply to other jobs if my only option was a java job

[cinder karma]

(If you haven't figured, I'm currently suffering due to a language that has Java inspiration)

[strange copper]

F in the chat for atra

[cinder karma]

It's not python for once!!!!

[strange copper]

aw i like python

it has lots of issues but it's so cute

[cinder karma]

🐍

[strange copper]

how do yall feel about go

[upbeat turtle]

peeks out from under his rock in the mud.

I love Perl.

[strange copper]

i understand why they made all the choices they did but sometimes i just want an optional parameter

[upbeat turtle]

regex literally built into the engine of the language.

[cinder karma]

Me with overloads in Rust

[strange copper]

can you not overload in rust

you can't do it in go either

[upbeat turtle]

I'm trying to learn Rust. But I'm a poor student unless I have an actual hands-on project to learn with.

[strange copper]

wait i got just the github issue for u

https://github.com/twitter/the-algorithm/issues/473

[upbeat turtle]

My newest mod was inspired by the Rustaceans... 😉

[worn remnant]

probably net good, but i'm admitting it through clenched teeth

[cinder karma]

Yeah

I get whyyy but also plz

[strange copper]

me at work every day

like that one 10% use case of the function deserves an optional param 🥺

[cinder karma]

(And this is from someone who had to actually understand, truly understand, c# overloading rules)

[upbeat turtle]

Why can't we ever underload operators?

[strange copper]

how much of a menace would I be to submit a +2k, -3.5k PR that is theoretically a No-op refactor at 8:30am monday morning

[upbeat turtle]

Wait until 3:30pm on a Friday, mate.

[strange copper]

no i'm waiting for my 2 other PRs to be approved rn they have to go in first

my poor mentor gonna be like "what the heck is wrong with my intern"

he likes small PRs too 😭

[upbeat turtle]

Jajajajajajajaja

[strange copper]

but it was a refactor and i had to untangle it all at once or it wasn't gonna compile 😭

[upbeat turtle]

Fine. 2000 PRs, each +1 -3 😉

[strange copper]

i was like "oh i just have to move stuff it isn't bad" and then i put 8 hrs of dev time into it

i feel like I have talk to him first and be like "don't freak out" 💀

[upbeat turtle]

When Interns submit giant PR requests. Tonight on channel 7!

[strange copper]

"can i just get a +1 to release to staging"

[worn remnant]

just switch between tab<->space indents and get yourself a PR for every line in the codebase

[strange copper]

literally me when I convinced my boss to let me set up a project linter at my last job

[upbeat turtle]

Always always have whitespace differences OFF in diffs!

[strange copper]

it was the semicolons 🥹

[upbeat turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/lint-fucking-lint-thick-lint-gif-15471655

Lint?

[strange copper]

average dorm dryer

[upbeat turtle]

I have this irresistable urge to touch a flame to that lint.

[rotund violet]

That depends on...

1. How good the diffing is
2. Whether or not there are tests, and how good the coverage is
3. What kind of deadlines, team meetings or other priorities happen at the beginning of the week
4. Whether your reviewer is a peer, lead or manager

I've straight up rejected some commits that size; the author always thinks it can't be partitioned or simplified (otherwise they would have done so), and they're usually wrong. But like everything else in life, there are exceptions.

[cinder karma]

Is python list equality sentence equality

[rain apex]

sentence equality like [1, 2, 3] == [1, 2, 3] being True?

[cinder karma]

Yeah

I basically wrote the quick two line equality checker before going wait

[rain apex]

I think py implemented value equality for all the builtin data structures

[cinder karma]

Yeah

It's not that common I think among programming languages

[safe dragon]

never heard of sentence quality

I know sequence equality

[cinder karma]

Think I confused sequence equality with sentence sort tbh

[latent bough]

have y'all ever had a kernel panic upon shutting off your machines?

[rain apex]

so ik in C# you can do this in a subclass' ctor to call the parent ctor

public Foobar(object args) : base(args) {}

and this to call the parent method

public override void Fizzbuzz(object args)
{
    base.Fizzbuzz(args);
}

but can you do something like base.ParentCtor(args) or use something like : to call the parent method right before the override method body goes

[devout vault]

If you mean having A > B > C and you want C to call A's method/constructor, then no

[rain apex]

no i just want to call the parent's ctor, but after some code in the subclass

public Foobar(object args)
{
    Foo = 1;
    base.Ctor(args) // something along these lines??
}

[latent bough]

I just think it was strange that it happened when shutting down and not during literally anything else

[latent bough]

I think generally speaking the parent class constructor has to be the first thing done in the subclass constructor

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's how it worked when I briefly used C#

[rain apex]

ah i see i am once again poisoned by the "pythonic" propaganda

[safe dragon]

no idea what a ctor is

[rain apex]

a constructor

[latent bough]

short for constructor probably

yeah

[safe dragon]

oh

yes I know constructors

[latent bough]

I remember getting errors about the first thing in the subclass constructor needing to be the parent constructor but I don't remember if that was in Java or C#

[upbeat turtle]

Like... you're finally going to bed. Unwind. Relax. Let everything... WTD?!?!? How'd you fall apart trying to REST?

[latent bough]

Yeah 😭

[rain apex]

in py it's fine to do this

def __init__(self, args):
    self.foo = 1
    super().__init__(args)

[latent bough]

I feel like it should do that when starting up if anything

[latent bough]

True

[upbeat turtle]

You ran the great race. Great pace. And stumble, fall, and DIE 10m from the finish line

[latent bough]

lmao

but again

there are lots of things you can do in python

that you can't in other languages

[cinder karma]

Hmmm

[upbeat turtle]

I prefer Perl over Python.

[latent bough]

in my mind python is kinda like "if you want to do it, you're able to. but should you? probably not"

[cinder karma]

The answer is "yes of course if you want to be bullshit"

[upbeat turtle]

Too bad it's dying.

[cinder karma]

Weird

[upbeat turtle]

I'm weird. =shurg=

[safe dragon]

idk how to do what you're asking tbh. It can't initialize a class if it hasn't initialized the class it is based on first I don't think.

I'd probably try to move the initialization logic out of the constructor itself into a helper method you can call

[latent bough]

I haven't touched Perl yet, probably should though

[rain apex]

its fine if the answer is no i was just curious

[latent bough]

I think someone said you can if you screw around hard enough (atraknits)

[rain apex]

the other syntax i was wondering about is

public override void Fizzbuzz(object args) : base(args)
{
    // at this point it's as if base.Fizzbuzz(args) was called and returned
}

but it doesnt seem like a thing either

[latent bough]

what are you asking about there?

[rain apex]

an alternate way to write the 2nd thing shown here

[safe dragon]

what does the override keyword even do here if it's a constructor. constructors aren't an overrideable method are they

[rain apex]

oh this is a method (that overrides a method in the parent class), not constructor

[latent bough]

what do you mean by it doesn't seem like a thing?

[safe dragon]

: base(args) works on things that aren't the constructor?

[rain apex]

well the lang server doesnt like it when i put : so prob not a thing?

[latent bough]

Yeah

I'm pretty sure that's just for subclass constructors

[safe dragon]

for anything other than a constructor you'd just call the base method from the method body

[rain apex]

i am only have these thoughts bc i been interpreting constructors as funny functions and not special thing that isnt a method

[latent bough]

I mean they kind of are but they also kind of aren't

constructors are a lil special

[safe dragon]

constructors and deconstructors are definitely treated as special

[rain apex]

yea i see

[gaunt wadi]

six dogs

[rotund violet]

Java has this too. Constructors have an explicit super call in the body (or this), but it has to be the first line of the body. Most languages that have actual constructors are like this. Even C++ uses initialization lists, regardless of what hacks might exist to do things differently.

It's because any class, even a subclassable one, needs to be able to make assumptions (invariants) about when its initializers actually run. If a subclass could delay initialization, then in theory it could call other base methods in its constructor that depend on being fully initialized.

[safe dragon]

python doesn't care though cause python is python

[rain apex]

[rotund violet]

Yeah, I mean python isn't really object-oriented, everything's a dictionary.

[safe dragon]

we are all dictionaries

[rain apex]

i think python should be banned from colleg year 1 courses tbh

it has too much funny business that u gotta unlearn later

[rotund violet]

It used to be predominantly Java and that got a lot of criticism too (e.g. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/12/29/the-perils-of-javaschools-2/)

I suppose it depends on whether you feel that the 101 course exists to be a "kind and gentle intro" or to weed out the less-talented.

[safe dragon]

my uni was almost entirely C#

[rain apex]

my uni was predominantly C/C++ after year 1 i suppose

[devout vault]

The one I went to with C++. (Which was slightly sad because AP CS was Java so I didn't get credit for the intro course from it)

[rotund violet]

That's surprising - C# is quite unusual in academia. C/C++ is the old school (and what many still consider to be superior), Java was 2000-era, now Python is taking over.

[safe dragon]

C/C++ wasn't even part of my entire cs degree which I still find strange

[devout vault]

Though I knew C++ already so it's not like it was hard

[rotund violet]

I wasn't actually in the comp sci track, so I spent a lot of time in assembly.

[rain apex]

i do get the rationale of teaching python as year 1 though, it's quite useful to learn in service of maths/stats

[rotund violet]

In fact that's precisely the issue, I think; python is a good language for "programming-adjacent" students like math and stats to learn, but not so hot for people wanting to be professional programmers.

[safe dragon]

I feel like the Netherlands is dominated with jobs in C# and it's acting as a feedback loop where companies look for C# so unis teach C# but then companies are motivated to use C# even more cause students would already know it making them easier to find/hire

whenever I look around it feels like half the job market is dotnet

[rain apex]

if i was the lord of the college i'd move the C stuff to year 1 and change the python to a year 2+ elective for the math majors

it'd prob help with course selection too

[safe dragon]

my first encounter with python in uni was an AI course

[rotund violet]

Maybe the landscape has changed. I remember when they first did the Stack Overflow survey - and Stack Overflow was already heavily overrepresenting C# - they saw that it was something like 10% of the market.

[cinder karma]

Clearly rust is the future

Oxidation is inevitable

[rotund violet]

It would be a good choice IMO, same power and weeding-out capability as C++ but without all the buffer overflows.

But, that's not the way academia is trending; they're making everything easier for freshmen, not harder.

[safe dragon]

unis are gonna be using unreal engine blueprints to teach programming soon enough

[cinder karma]

Nah

Let's do it the hard way

You aren't a real programmer unless you can start with a pile of sand

[safe dragon]

build your own lithography machine from scratch

[supple mountain]

notion just replaced its search function with an llm chatbot

"pull up the page for x recipe that I have in y database"
"I can't do that, but I CAN make up an alternate version of some other recipe. first, set your oven on fire,"

[latent bough]

😭

[gaunt wadi]

if i was the lord of university i'd delete c

[gaunt wadi]

that sounds awful, i am glad i switched off

[pastel umbra]

Oeh did I spot another dutchie 😮

[safe dragon]

ye

[pastel umbra]

Nice

I never find much other dutch people in the wild 😛

[pliant snow]

only in captivity

[pastel umbra]

😶

[safe dragon]

prisoners of the Netherlands

[pastel umbra]

I mean, I can definitely imagine worse places to be imprisoned

[safe dragon]

Belgium

[pastel umbra]

XD

[cyan shadow]

There's another that hangs out in #town-square

[pastel umbra]

Oeh I should check there too 😮

[pliant snow]

i remember we had a survey back in the day, and the dutch were like the 3rd most populous group

but that was back when there was only like 5000 users

[cinder karma]

Y'all should do another survey

Ask about best Bachelorette

[pastel umbra]

Really? Dont see that often xD

[rain apex]

That sounds interesting actually, probably worth a #1019646506665525441

[pastel umbra]

Asking about hte best bachelorette? XD

[rain apex]

gotta check how much of this server actually play stardew valley

[pliant snow]

somewhere you can dig and find that I think

[cinder karma]

HEY

[pliant snow]

actually I think the junimo have access to that data from Discord themselves too

[rotund violet]

Hah, I really do sometimes feel like I'm in the minority of actual players.

[rain apex]

Wait how would discord know if a user plays sdv or not

[pliant snow]

not that

it knows your nationality

[rain apex]

Oh that yes

[rotund violet]

Oh, I thought you meant survey how much they play.

[pliant snow]

i think that was in the old survey tho

[cinder karma]

There is also the little what you are playing snitch

[pliant snow]

where you were from, how long you had been in the server, how many hours you had played

[rotund violet]

The server can't tell, but when someone's trying to mod the game's UI and doesn't know what 90% of the sprites are... well...

[pastel umbra]

Im trying hard not to ask what they do if not play the game xD

[pliant snow]

complain about C++ mostly

[rotund violet]

Sometimes they mod the game without playing. Other times, yeah, complain about python or discuss the greatness of Rust.

[cinder karma]

(Lol)

[pliant snow]

I'm always shocked at people who will install mods before even playing a vanilla game

it seems crazy to me

[cinder karma]

I'm always shocked when people mod a game without playing it

[rotund violet]

Well, sometimes it's well-known that a certain game is broken without mods.

I've installed mods to do things like fix controller or camera issues before playing a game.

[cinder karma]

(Write mods, to be clear)

[cyan shadow]

We do, yes

[rotund violet]

But yeah, I'd never install a "content addon" mod before playing through vanilla.

[cyan shadow]

There's a nice lil pie chart

[pliant snow]

the people demand transparency

[rain apex]

so a survey like

• where are you from
• gender age stuff?
• when did you start playing stardew valley
• when did you stop playing stardew valley
  with the understanding that your answers wont be public but will become part of some statistics

[rotund violet]

Wait, you can't possibly have data on how much we play the game. You mean data on geolocation?

[cyan shadow]

Geolocation, yes

Not the game

[rotund violet]

Right, that makes a lot more sense.

[rotund violet]

You forgot the bachelorette. Very important.

[rain apex]

well yes who is best girl/boy/krobus

[cinder karma]

We don't care about thr bachelors

You have to choose between the girls or krobus

(I kid I kid)

[rain apex]

best girl is keg

[rotund violet]

Like, 9 out of 10 female players choose Sebastian anyway, going by what's in #creative, there's practically zero variety. So actually I don't kid, we don't need to ask that, we already know.

[fleet wren]

(I said earlier that I'm pretty sure Shane was more popular, but actually no, there's actual numerical data that shows Seb still ahead, albeit not by a wide margin)

a virtual cookie to anyone who guesses what my data source was

[rotund violet]

lol, does your mod have analytics?

That would be evil, but I'll bet somebody's done it.

Well then, I guess Seb is only wildly overrepresented among the artsy types.

[fleet wren]

I'm not that evil lol, I'm just using an external "data" "source" (which admittedly is also populated by artistic types)

[rotund violet]

Forum post? Wiki edits? Twitter poll? Could be so many things.

I'm always surprised to see Harvey getting some love, even if it ain't much.

[fleet wren]

yeah it is a little vague come to think of it. I'll just give the answer behind spoiler:

(it is very, very top heavy as you can see)

like Alex enjoyers are nearly nonexistent

[cyan shadow]

||AO3 is indeed a good source of data||

[rotund violet]

I wonder if Alex is low because he's a weak character, or because he's stupidly hard to gift and players just don't want to put in that much effort.

"Should I spend my entire day making a million dollars on wine... or catching salmon for Alex?" There's a tough choice.

(I have never tried to romance a male character and likely never will, but it's still infuriating to max those hearts for Perfection runs.)

[rain apex]

not to offend the alex lovers out there but his chara design is kinda boring

he's got a normal ass hairstyle and no eye catching facial features

[pastel umbra]

Huh, alex and elliot feel slighly weird having different facing portraits

do the ladies have that too?

[rain apex]

yes, but this convo is becoming dangerously on topic

[cyan shadow]

Get back off topic, y'all

If you guys hung out in #stardew-valley I'd never have trouble keeping that channel on topic istg

[pastel umbra]

I checked, bachelorettes have an even 3 slightly diagonal 3 straight

so just the bachelors are weird

But alright more offtopic

I need fun/silly ideas

I will be teaching basic computer skills to a bunch of 12 year olds starting in september

What cool things can I do/teach them that will make them behave and listen xD

In the past (when I did slightly different work) I had a class obsessed with cookie clicker

so I taught them to hack cookie clicker, that was fun

I became "best teacher ever" very fast

[rotund violet]

You say that, but I've been chastised at least three times for bringing #making-mods-general off topic.

[rain apex]

i have fond memories of turtle graphics

something with visual feedback is nice

[pastel umbra]

Yeah that is for a bit later, this is a group of fresh new students, most of them never having used a laptop before (only tablet/mobile phone, its so weird) so I literally need to start with the very basics

[rain apex]

wow doing the lord's work here

[pastel umbra]

Stuff like "this is how you use a mouse"

cause the previous group I had, they just, didnt use the mouse, only trackpad, cause they arent used to it

even for stuff thats aweful on trackpad

[rotund violet]

There are zoomers who haven't used computers before? I thought it was like... a necessary part of childhood now.

[pastel umbra]

so I want to make them want to use a mouse

[rain apex]

maybe just teach them how to use a drawing program?

play gartic phone together or smth

[pastel umbra]

Nope, computers not anymore. Too many of them only use tablets and phones and switches and consoles

[rain apex]

i dont think there's any particularly fun ways to dress up "this is a file system, with folders"

[pastel umbra]

The laptops have touchscreens 😭

[rain apex]

dressing it up is how we got to this situation where zoomers dont understand what it is

[pastel umbra]

Oh, the file system I actually have a fun way for!

Its a puzzle/treasure hunt

so they get a starting hint

then need to navigate to the right folder to get the next

etc

I have done that one before with kids, they love it

With some weird images in between

Which is the fun part

A whole classroom full of kids focussing to find the solution as fast as possible, with the occasional "aaah!" or loud laughing

and ofcourse a rickroll, although the dont understand that reference 😭

[rotund violet]

Huh, couple of weeks back someone here was opining on how the current generation growing up with mobile phones is actually making them dumber than the previous, and this really puts that into perspective.

[pastel umbra]

Yes, it really really does

Its aweful

I have been teaching kids ages 6-16 for a few years now, and the intelligence level regarding electronics is severely decreasing

I am so happy we have a mobile phone ban in schools here right now

Im already noticing a positive effect on the kids now the phones are not allowed in the school anymore, its insane

Before when I would walk in while they had a break, 90% of the kids were just looking at their phones

[rain apex]

oh yea do u have a typing of the dead unit

[pastel umbra]

now they actually talk with each other again

[pastel umbra]

A what now?

[rotund violet]

Texting really is an addiction for a lot of people.

[pastel umbra]

Its not even texting

its worse

its tiktok and snapchat

[rotund violet]

That's definitely worse, yes.

[rain apex]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Typing_of_the_Dead

u type words to explode zombies

i think there's more pg versions of this gameplay

[rotund violet]

lol, ah, the 90s, we were so obsessed with trying to make touch-typing cool.

[rain apex]

nice for learning how2 type

[pastel umbra]

They cant download stuff on their laptops, needs to be browser based

[rotund violet]

Although maybe that stuff will make a comeback for these generations that literally can't type. I never imagined we'd lose that skill, collectively speaking.

[pastel umbra]

Im not even touching learning how to type, that is waayy beyond what I can possibly achieve haha

I just wanna get the basic computer skills and such over with

so we can continue to the fun stuff

[rotund violet]

Geez, these kids sound even more incompetent than my elderly parents.

[pastel umbra]

Like the 3 3dprinters I have to work with

[fleet wren]

I think we used Typer Shark back in the days

[pastel umbra]

and technical legos

and basic game design stuff

[rain apex]

how do these kids do anything if they cant type

[pastel umbra]

They can type

they dont need to be fast

I have a nice lesson on keys on the keyboard and shortcuts

[rain apex]

[pastel umbra]

But hey, my job the next year will be to bring these kids from never having used a computer to being budding game designers

Just want to make sure I wont lose their interest/attention while teaching them the basic skills

[rotund violet]

Game designers specifically? There's a game design course for kids who've never even used a computer? Or is that just your own long-term vision?

[pastel umbra]

Alright so basically, I got a new job at a school (in our school system, starts at 12 till about 17 year old) for a course called "tech+" for first and second year students (so 12/13 years old). I basically got the freedom to do whatever I want, cause they dont get a grade, as long as it has something to do with technology, and I teach them some basic computer skills as well.

So my current curiculum for the year is:

• starting with basic computer skills
• some digital safety stuff sprinkled in
• Then on to CoSpaces (basically, 3d game design website, with codeblock based coding (think scratch like)
• Some basic tinkercad to make 3d objects for CoSpaces
• on to making 3d models for 3d printing
• then on to making 3d printed parts for robots coded with codeblocks

All these parts I have done before in short courses (think like a day, or 2 hours a week for a few weeks)

but now I am basically trying to intergrate it all in one connected line

And we get to participate in a lego robot competition too

And other fun stuff

[cinder karma]

Sounds fun!!!

[rotund violet]

Pretty nice, yeah. Is it elective or required? Like, do you get mostly kids who really want to learn this stuff?

Given the "+" I assume elective, but you never know...