programmers-off-topic

[safe dragon]

probably not

give it a shot

I recently learnt that the only reason fedora still ships python 2 is cause gimp uses it

[pliant snow]

Does it? Python 2 isn't in the arch packages anymore because nothing uses it

Some items are built with whatever python is installed, so I suspect there might be issues

[safe dragon]

as far as I know gimp isn't switching to python 3 till the mythical gimp 3

[cinder karma]

Yeah

[pliant snow]

actually python isn't a dependency at all for gimp on arch

[cinder karma]

Last time I tried to change the system python version on my laptop I ended up swimming with sharks

[safe dragon]

huh...

[cinder karma]

(Okay I ended up doing a fresh OS install)

[pliant snow]

why would you want to change the system python version

[safe dragon]

funzies

[pliant snow]

I think the usual advice is to leave system python as alone as you can

[cinder karma]

Long story short I need to run this stupid script as root

And for some reason it's refusing to use the 3.11 I've installed or the venv it is in when I run as root

"Why root" "fuck usb"

[safe dragon]

I've learnt not to question what you do

maybe you run 3.11 specifically in root because of usb

[pliant snow]

I could see that being an issue

If the python 3.11 is installed on disk, idk why you couldnt just call that executable as root

[cinder karma]

That's what I'm trying now but now ipython is missing and refusing to install

[pliant snow]

Do it in a docker container with access/permisisons to whatever /dev device you need

aka the venv approach but with more steps lol

[cinder karma]

Hmmm running as root did not fix my access issues

[pliant snow]

Is it some HID USB thing?

[cinder karma]

Vendor docs (which I should have consulted earlier) specify a specific version of a library must be installed

Okay did that, different error now!

Ah, okay, need to add a config file to set two specific ids first

[rotund violet]

I saw "3.11" and thought "whoa, is this retro Windows day?" Python should really have skipped that version number.

[cinder karma]

Presented without context

[worn remnant]

i already didn't like python, but the (ongoing) python 2/python 3 fiasco made me really not like it

[rain apex]

wait i thought it ended in 2020

[cinder karma]

The world ended in 2020

[pliant snow]

Python 2 is pretty dead, only really stubborn projects are using it still

Read: Random build scripts for the project I work on

[leaden marsh]

Installing a newer version of Python is exactly how I soft-bricked my Ubuntu 18.04 server computer

(Or rather, attempting to uninstall the earlier version)

[pliant snow]

https://xkcd.com/1987/

xkcd: Python Environment

The Python environmental protection agency wants to seal it in a cement chamber, with pictorial messages to future civilizations warning them about the danger of using sudo to install random Python packages.

[devout vault]

...You can forward messages in Discord?

[supple ether]

it's a new feature

[cinder karma]

Test

Awww not on my phone yet

[devout vault]

My discord is perpetually out of date

[supple ether]

yeah I didn't see it on mobile. but it might also be something in a/b testing since I didn't see it mentioned in changelogs yet

[cinder karma]

I was only planning on changing the simlink for /usr/bin/python to point to 3.11 not 2.7

Then reconsidered HIGHLY

In my defense I'm running on about three hours of sleep

Staring at an incomprehensible error with a USB port and crying inside

Like I don't even usually go "okay I will try to solve my life's problems by running as root or lying to this USB port about....what is this third ID field?"

[supple ether]

oh wait my bad. it didn't generate json. it generated an entire webpage containing embedded json and javascript

[cinder karma]

(The solution was very simple. Atra, follow the vendor's nicely made documentation. Unlike the previous vendor's absolute dogshit useless docs this particular chip has good docs actually.)

[supple ether]

good docs, a true rarity

[cinder karma]

Now I need to figure out why we rolled our own i2c code

I'm going to bet I don't like the answer

We'll find out tomorrow

(My bet is "well someone was accidentally not quite to spec")

[sand frost]

There’s never a happy answer to that

It’s either spiders or someone wrote bad code

[sonic mirage]

Re: Powershell - I've used it to do some deployments of PHP sites on Windows Server (don't ask), and it's decent. You can write interactive scripts for it and it is kind of like C# Lite. You just have to install the current version of v7 and not use v5 or whatever was installed with your Windows install

If it has the blue background you are probably running the old version. Also be sure to tick all the boxes to add it to your context menu and make it default and such when running the installer

[pliant snow]

Shoutout to ZFS, as I realized I had misconfigured syncthing and rather than preventing certain files from syncing, it had deleted them entirely without me knowing. Luckily I could just roll back to an older snapshot

[sonic mirage]

Windows for some reason keeps the old and the new one installed

[humble knoll]

Classic windows

[cinder karma]

....who made this api

I quote the docs...."<redacted> is interpreted as a query for matching <redacted> devices and immediately stop....the python interpreter is forced to exit"

[safe dragon]

me

[cinder karma]

It was already on my annoyance list for being a stringly typed api

[safe dragon]

With this special URL syntax, the avaialble devices are printed out to the standard output, and the Python interpreter is forced to exit (SystemExit is raised).

a spelling error

sue them

yes I looked up the api for this

my least favorite api I've used was the api for the official C# package for Amazon Cognito which treats every failure state as an exception.

Something as basic as a user using the wrong password was treated as an exception instead of just a result response

using it involved a lot of try catch arms

[worn remnant]

jail

[cinder karma]

New day new hatred of filesharing software

Business oriented filesharing software

Also, vpns

Otoh you guys might like today's wfh mullet outfit

Dress shirt and shorts babyyyyy

[supple ether]

reject the cloud, return to p2p

(I realize that's not possible in enterprise but. still)

[safe dragon]

have your work host a private torrenting network

[supple ether]

I use self-hosted torrents all the time to share files with friends. not even in a piracy way just like. "Here's a zip of the 2gb minecraft multiplayer world I've been hosting so you can have a personal copy"

FTP also works but IME it tends to be kind of slow

[cinder karma]

Hey, Ubuntu did self hosted torrents too iirc

It's a great way to do big downloads

(What I'm pitching about is that it took me five tries to successfully load 20mb of pdfs into a shared directory. Five. Tries.)

[rotund violet]

Sharepoint?

[scarlet hollow]

Unrelated: is this a safe space for software engineering rant?

[pliant snow]

only if we agree with you

[supple ether]

absolutely

LMAO

[scarlet hollow]

Ohmyfuckinggod I hate enterprise software development. So much.

We spend FOUR MONTHS nailing down a handful of dead simple changes and allocating time in FIVE different engineering teams to work on it for each platform, including two different backend teams. After multiple rounds of delays and changes, I finally finish my work for Web, and then a senior engineer on the iOS team says they won’t approve the design as specified because it doesn’t follow iOS best practices. Time for another contract change!

Get. Me. Out of here.

[pliant snow]

ah yes

[fleet wren]

Jigsaw voice: "Hello, I want to play a game. In front of you are three computers and two smartphones, each of them running a different OS and connected to the same LAN but not the wider internet. You have thirty minutes to set up a shared network directory so they can send and receive files from one another, or a comically large piano will fall on your head. Let the games begin."

[pliant snow]

things that I could do in a day on my own take three weeks, four documents, and five approvals to do

[scarlet hollow]

This has been a drag on my sprint completion for the past three months

I hate it I hate it I hate it

Whew. Calm… okay I’m good

One month until I can quit without having to pay back my five figure signing bonus

Almost there

[rotund violet]

I wouldn't take any bonus to do enterprise dev again.

Well... maybe a seven-figure bonus. If the job didn't literally make my eyes bleed.

[scarlet hollow]

Yeah. Man. I’ve learned my lesson

[pliant snow]

Beats actually working for a living

[rotund violet]

That said, bureaucracy infects every big business, not just the enterprise-y ones. Believe me, FAANG (whatever the acronym is now) is exactly the same.

[pliant snow]

oh the arch wiki is down

[scarlet hollow]

I came from a really awesome startup that used conventional React and where the job was exactly as advertised. The past year at [Big Tech, Inc.] has destroyed me from the inside out

[pliant snow]

Never work at Big Tech, at best maybe Middle Tech

[rotund violet]

Yeah. Startups can be nice for autonomy. Just tend to suck for pay, job security and general stress.

[scarlet hollow]

I was actually paid roughly 15% more at my startup job

lol

The signing bonus I got suckered into was the recruiter’s way of making up the gap

[rotund violet]

Sometimes if they're VC-funded they'll offer high pay... at first. Just don't expect any raises ever, and you might get dropped for BS reasons.

[scarlet hollow]

But yes, wrt. job security. That’s why I am where I am

Startup flew me out to LA for a week in Nov. ‘22 to meet the team and everything was great. Then six weeks later the company was taken over hostilely by an investor-that-was-also-a-competitor and they laid off all but the lowest paid people.

[rotund violet]

Happened to... geez, I've lost count, like half a dozen people I know? Always the same story. First year is awesome, they're making money, having fun, feel super important. Then there's a "change in management" and off they go.

There's a middle ground for security if you work for an internally-funded startup, or what we used to just call a "small business" where the founders have a personal stake. But, they tend not to pay obscene amounts.

As long as you're a wagie, there's no clear win, just a bunch of tradeoffs.

I do hear some positive things about the quants. But you need to have a very high stress tolerance if you're working in a position where one tiny mistake could cost the company ten million dollars.

[scarlet hollow]

Ha, stress tolerance is not something I have very much of.

Ability to act in crisis? Yes. Ability to live in that long term? Nope.

[rotund violet]

Not so much eternal crisis with quants (as far as I know), just, you can't screw up, ever.

[scarlet hollow]

Same thing to my brain haha

The way I see it, if there’s a risk that any action will have catastrophic consequences and you have a fight or flight reaction every time you merge a PR… that’d be my personal hell

Also I don’t really math very well lol

[scarlet hollow]

Coming back to this, yeah. Extremely felt. My manager announced a company hack week opportunity a month or so ago and I got excited. Then the other shoe drops—

1. There are preallocated projects to work on. If you want to work on something you’re personally interested in…
2. You need to submit your idea for approval on the company hack week portal
3. Ideas related to AI are most likely to be approved, because that’s what the C-suite likes right now
4. You need to build a slide deck and presentation about your work, and be prepared to hold a Q&A about it
5. If approved, you need to build your prototype, then register for a time slot to present to the company about your work and the value it adds.

Bro I just wanna refactor some of our library code, not do a TED talk about it

[rotund violet]

Seems like every business is trending this way, where objectives are all oriented toward looking good on next week's powerpoint presentation, rather than actually having any impact on the business itself.

[scarlet hollow]

Yeah. I just hope the late-stage startup land I came from hasn’t been infected by it yet

Surely not

[rotund violet]

Late-stage startups tend to be the most risky in my experience, they're all about to either be acquired or go IPO, and from there it's pure cancer.

For some reason, acquisitions and IPOs affect modern tech startups much more severely than traditional businesses, probably because they didn't grow organically in the first place and don't have management that knows how to handle the transition.

[scarlet hollow]

Yeah. At least for the last company I was at, at the end of the day, it was just a matter of resources

In order to fully cement our position in the market, we needed another funding round and maybe 18-24 months of additional runway

But then the behemoth company that invested in us early on said “hmm, how about no?” and used their board control to paralyze our ability to fundraise until we agreed to be acquired

I only learned all of this later on, but man

[rotund violet]

That's why I find the world of tech startups so cancerous. They're almost all wildly unprofitable, utterly dependent on VC/investor money, therefore have no recourse whatsoever when the investors go rogue, get corporate cancer themselves or just decide to be jerks.

Doesn't mean you should never work for one - just know that it's temporary and be prepared to walk away at the first sign of trouble.

[scarlet hollow]

Yeah.

It hurts more because it was a healthcare company providing low-cost in-home care to seniors

That a company like that still fell victim to corporate greed just really drains your will to live

I guess I was complacent. But it’s hard not to be when you’re well-paid at a job that feels perfectly tailored to your skillset, that gives you a sense of purpose like that

[rotund violet]

I don't blame mysterious forces like corporate greed; if a business isn't profitable, it's not going to stay in business, that's just reality. So when a startup has had negative cashflow for 5 years and expects negative cash flow for another 25 years, it's either going to get reorged or killed entirely.

The only part of it that's truly sad to me is how many turn to advertising or selling user data as a way to maintain cash flow.

[scarlet hollow]

sigh, yeah.

[rotund violet]

That's where the greed comes in, the carnie mentality, the absolute laziness. Let's not figure out how to save the business, we'll just cash in our chips and sell out the user base.

[scarlet hollow]

Well, at least we didn’t do that

[scarlet hollow]

LMFAO

I heard this in my head as Jerma playing Jigsaw

https://youtu.be/cBWWW0bvpHk

[safe dragon]

ah a rant about the tech industry

we don't really have meetings or presentations beyond the regular "scrum" slop luckily

and the company is small enough to not have a billion layers of bureaucracy

we have multiple teams but the team I am in is expected to basically do every part of some feature in every application that needs it

probably split between team members a bit but that's about it

no iOS team to worry about that's for sure...

actually we just ignore the existence of iOS entirely

tbh

idk if I ever want to work somewhere with even more bureaucracy nonsense than I already deal with here

[safe dragon]

do you have to ask for approvals for things? I don't even control what I do in the first place so there's nothing to "approve" so I'm curious how that goes

I just get told "this thing needs x to allow you to do y" and then I do that and once I'm done a tester checks that you can indeed do y and then it gets merged

[pliant snow]

It depends on what it is. Bug fixes or general refactoring you can just do, just need a coworker to review and approve the commit. Once it becomes a "feature" though, theres suddenly a bunch of hoops and documentation that happens

[safe dragon]

and you're responsible for that?

[pliant snow]

Some developer working on it is, yes

And we dont usually decide the features, they come down from on high

[safe dragon]

oh we definitely never decide features nor do we ever get time to refactor anything ever unless we pretend it's necessary for some specific feature

features come from clients who pay to get them built

"store chain x want's to be able to do y and they paid us for that so go do that"

[pliant snow]

Weve been trying to do some refactoring that wouldve made the project im working on now, and the previous on in that section of the Ui trivial, but alas

[safe dragon]

refactoring doesn't have a clear concrete reward to management...

I'd like to maybe experience like a big company once just to know what it's like...

it'd be interesting to work somewhere where clients aren't directly paying for a very specific piece of functionality too

companies where features are decided by some people somewhere in the company who base that on, idk, reviews or market analysis or something

where I work now is basically just a pipeline to churn out features for specific clients and add them to the heap of a million other features built for clients, many of which are only used by a singular client

[pliant snow]

Thats a weird business model. We do have some stuff thats mandated by our OEM clients, but we (we being internal management) have pretty free agency to update things as we please

[safe dragon]

generally speaking for the company I work for, if a client isn't paying for a feature we're not building it.

That's true even for entire applications. We offer a self checkout because a client paid us to build one

pretty much every single thing any of our applications can do can be tracked down to some specific client paying for us to add the abilty to do that

[pliant snow]

How long after they stop paying can you throw it out lol

[safe dragon]

never

the only way features are "thrown out" is that everyone has forgotten that it existed and no client seems to miss that it's now broken

[cinder karma]

Interesting business model

[safe dragon]

yes

it seems to work...

it probably means I have a warped view of how companies operate though

we churn out entire lists of features every two weeks and as far as I can tell a lot of bigger software companies with several times the number of developers produce seemingly a fraction of that as far as outwardly marketable things go

[pliant snow]

I would say our public feature change is probably a bit small for the number of people on the products, but a lot of them work on solely backend stuff

[safe dragon]

we do have a very very very large amount of settings and authorization options to enable or disable features for specific clients. There's several thousand settings that can be configured per store within a franchise and also several thousand buttons, pages, screens etc that can be configured whether a user is able to see them

[pliant snow]

All one big switch statement

[safe dragon]

the game programmer way of writing an application

our authorization system is pretty robust and easy to use, probably by necessity

[cinder karma]

Mr. YouTube told me switch cases are fast though

Mr. YouTube also told me I should try the new programming language OCheetah and also to cut my hair and go running barefoot on the mountaintop

[safe dragon]

mr youtube likes to tell people to do a lot of things

it also likes to tell you to do the exact opposite of that

[pliant snow]

Our configuration system is... improving

It used to be a bunch of compile time config options, but we're switching to more runtime stuff now

[safe dragon]

all our configuration lives in a database and is almost always configurable on a store by store basis and at the very least a client to client basis. Every client has their own separate database

pretty much all clients are big stores with at least like 5 locations and sometimes several hundred

no smaller clients, mom and pop shops etc

[pliant snow]

Do updates just get pushed

[safe dragon]

what do you mean

we create a release branch every month. Clients are generally on one of the last 3 months and that's our limit for patching bugfixes

apart from that, yeah

well

clients have acceptance environments where it's deployed first

stuff is then tested by the client there before eventually going live on their production environment

since every client essentially runs on essentially completely isolated environments it's up to each individual client when they update

there's a few services that are "multitenant", those generally just get released whenever there's a change

[pliant snow]

We make embedded systems, users only get updates if they actually put it on an SD card and do the update lol (actually i think we can push stuff over the air now, idk)

Im convinced most users have the software their system came with

[devout vault]

Update? What’s that?

[pliant snow]

Youre an animal

[marble jewel]

Now screenshot your unread count of your email inbox

[devout vault]

Oh I did that recently it’s 39k

[safe dragon]

we own every device our software/services run on other than the backoffice website, from the servers to the cash registers

so we have essentially full control over what version someone is using

[devout vault]

That sounds nice

Not having to deal with users like me apparently

[safe dragon]

yes

I mean in general we don't really deal with "users"

just businesses

[devout vault]

I just meant in general. I know sometimes with mods it’s a pain getting people to update things, I imagine it’s a nightmare when it’s stuff that actually matters

[marble jewel]

I'm forced to deal with a lot of office politics, and that's the worst part about my job

[safe dragon]

office politics are almost always the worst part of a job

[sand frost]

Aww Casey beat my score

[safe dragon]

I always dilligently update everything

[devout vault]

🥈

I used to

[thin estuary]

Meanwhile my App Store refuses to even tell me the update counts, until I manually open it, go to my profile, updates, and pull to refresh

[cinder karma]

I keep my own tech updated but thks oscilloscope runs windows 98

[devout vault]

Apparently mine did need refreshing, it’s 127 now

[worn remnant]

i do not diligently update everything. i do updates sometimes, if i feel like it, when it's convenient, or if i have noticed a particular problem and i'm hoping for or expecting a fix

[marble jewel]

I update my apps almost every day, but I still end up with 50+

[rotund violet]

They exist. Any company that understands the fuzzy "velocity" concept will have some budget for tech debt, miscellaneous bug fixes, what you call refactoring, etc. Some teams may even allocate time every sprint or have a bug-fix rotation.

But you do have to be able to prove that the work you're doing is valuable in some way, as in "devs spend 3 hours a day just wading through this swamp of terrible code" vs. "this looks ugly to me and I want to rewrite it".

And if some particular module, class, algorithm, etc. has been responsible for a major outage, you pretty much get carte blanche to take whatever time you need to fix it. So if you're a particularly unethical enterprising individual, you could in theory come up with a way to abuse capitalize on the benefits of such a policy.

[safe dragon]

shuts down the server on purpose

[crystal wren]

:: Synchronizing package databases...
 core is up to date
 extra                                                                                   7.2 MiB  17.9 MiB/s 00:00 [#####################################################################] 100%
 multilib is up to date
:: Searching AUR for updates...
:: Searching databases for updates...
 -> Flagged Out Of Date AUR Packages: zoom
:: 7 packages to upgrade/install.
7  extra/gnome-music    1:46.0-2           -> 1:46.1-1
6  extra/jdk17-openjdk  17.0.11.u9-1       -> 17.0.12.u7-1
5  extra/jdk21-openjdk  21.0.3.u9-1        -> 21.0.4.u7-1
4  extra/llvm-libs      18.1.8-3           -> 18.1.8-4
3  extra/qt5-base       5.15.14+kde+r141-1 -> 5.15.14+kde+r143-1
2  extra/yt-dlp         2024.07.09-1       -> 2024.07.16-1
1  aur/google-chrome    126.0.6478.126-1   -> 126.0.6478.182-1

Not too bad!

[safe dragon]

nice

[crystal wren]

And don't worry, I use Chrome specifically for YouTube and YouTube alone.

[cinder karma]

I want you to know I absent mindedly hit update all

[pliant snow]

Google chrome even, not just chromium

Is that Arch update separate? Or is that some GUI to update

[crystal wren]

That's just yay.

[crystal wren]

Don't worry, so did I immediately after this screeshot!

[rain apex]

im bad at arch rolling release i think
Packages (472)

[rotund violet]

I'm still not going to apologize for using Chrome. Firefox annoys me, Brave is a pile of unfixed bugs and irritating design choices, and Vivaldi and a lot of the other "privacy" browsers are just straight up broken.

[rain apex]

that or kde patched 200 times last month

[pliant snow]

I loved vivaldi, i dont think i had many issues with it, although im still using firefox

yay can do popups?

[cinder karma]

Yeah I am a Firefox person

[crystal wren]

I used to like Mozilla. Then Firefox. Then Chrome. Then Opera. Then... honestly, it just went haywire.

[rotund violet]

Vivaldi, like a lot of browsers, works about 98% of the time. The problem is, that other 2% adds up to far more stress and time wasted than whatever I save/gain from ditching Chrome.

[rain apex]

when does it explod for u

[rotund violet]

I get to that one odd site that doesn't work, and then I have to troubleshoot. Is it the site? Is it my browser? My internet connection?

Is it an extension? What is the problem exactly?

[cinder karma]

Oh, I only ever use like five sites

The bulk of the rest is some guys blog or some uni website

[rotund violet]

It's always just... stupid shit, like opening up my bank account, clicking on the link to show my account number and having it do nothing. Multiply those little irritations by a thousand, and that's why I just stick to Chrome.

[cinder karma]

Ah, okay

[safe dragon]

I have no issues on firefox other than one specific webshop which just errors out when you go to the payment screen and has done so for like 2 years now

[cinder karma]

Lol

[rotund violet]

I hate Microsoft way more than Google and would happily switch to a Linux distro, if Aquacomputer would make any of their software multiplatform. Sadly...

[pliant snow]

Aquocomputer tho

[cinder karma]

Does aquocomputer support windows?

[pliant snow]

Excellent question, no

[crystal wren]

Are you telling me Bouncer isn't running on Windows!?

[cinder karma]

Does aquocomputer support Debian based linuxwa

[safe dragon]

bouncer solely runs on SerenityOS

[cinder karma]

Does aquocomputer support the one and true operating system ||emacs||

[safe dragon]

it's actively hostile towards that one

the one true browser is ladybird

[devout vault]

I thought you were going to say templeOS

[cinder karma]

Please Casey

You know I have an oscilloscope still in 1998

It's not running windows 1998

[pliant snow]

Also its aquOS, thank you very much

[cinder karma]

It is just in 1998

I have to time travel to use ut

[rotund violet]

What's the "tho"? I don't get it - they're the only company in that space producing software that isn't literal garbage. Corsair... ugh, Corsair, I hate iCue more than I've ever hated anything ever.

[cinder karma]

Blows a big hole in the budget

[rotund violet]

Anyway, their Aquasuite only supports Windows, period.

Last I checked (and I've checked several times), you can sort of get some stuff working under Linux, like some of the sensors, but not virtual sensors which are required for this loop.

[pliant snow]

📝 aquosuite...

[safe dragon]

never heard of em

[rotund violet]

Oh, I get it now, it's a name pun.

whoosh

[safe dragon]

u did it

[rotund violet]

Anyway, in the liquid cooling space they're generally known as the company that produces hardware that doesn't break after 6 months of use, and software that actually works, the main disadvantage being they are out of stock 80% of the time.

[pliant snow]

Im here to cause confusion

[cinder karma]

Ah, I like lakeshore for that

[safe dragon]

I just have some ugly ass noctua fan slapped onto my cpu so no liquid cooling

[cinder karma]

||please someone else get the joke||

[rotund violet]

I... don't get it. Lakeshore?

[cinder karma]

Lakeshore makes scientific equipment for analyzing transistors

Some of their equipment uses liquid nitrogen to cool said transistors

[rotund violet]

Ok, well that's pretty esoteric. Interesting though.

[crystal wren]

Now to write a game in HolyC!

[cinder karma]

Tbh if I were to rewind my life and magically find a job in the field I kinda really like power systems

[cinder karma]

I learned html from a book as old as I am, okay?

So I still have a soft spot for janky formatting using tables

That was allll I knew as a teenager

[rain apex]

tables...

my first introduction to web was dreamweaver and it like, puts spliced up images into tables for display

[regal ingot]

eeewww, dreamweaver

[rain apex]

i had to unlearn dreamweaver later

[regal ingot]

(I say having never used it, just looked at its output)

[cinder karma]

What's Dreamweaver

[rain apex]

cursed adobe wysiwyg web design software

[worn remnant]

janky table-formatting generator

[rotund violet]

From the same company that brought us the trainwreck of Flash, IIRC.

Ruined an entire generation of web design.

[cinder karma]

Huh

https://youtube.com/shorts/PpAE_AE0wU4?si=gadhSYMhilENjzrT

[raw pelican]

Git question.
I have downloaded github desktop and clone my (empty) stardew valley mods repository.
Do I now take the mod I've been working on and move it into that folder, and then I can upload to github? And then sync it across computers by getting github desktop on the other computer and cloning the repository to that one?

and I can make changes to the repo owned by github desktop and push it all to github?

I copied the entire project folder and now a .vs folder is in there.

[pliant snow]

You can! If you cloned the empty repository, the folder it downloaded should have a .git folder in it. You dont need to worry about whats in that folder, but that signifies your folder as a proper repository. You can then copy all your files into the cloned folder, create a commit, and push it back up to github, where youll see your stuff on the website. You can then clone it on other machines and also make further changes, so long as theyre set up to push to github too

[crystal wren]

One thing depending on if it's a C# mod is you'll want to find a good .gitignore file for C#!

[pliant snow]

Subject the world to your C# junk

[raw pelican]

So still work off the original source folder, then copy it to the repository file to push to git and then I can pull out the files I don't want.

[pliant snow]

I would just move everything into the repository folder and just work out of there from now on, rather than having two copies.

I can pull out the files I don't want
That's the purpose of the .gitignore file that was mentioned, it's a list of files you don't want git to upload

[safe dragon]

just take a standard gitignore for C# and add whatever else you don't want uploaded

[pliant snow]

does C# have a lot of junk

[safe dragon]

C# itself will create bin and obj folders for build stuff and visual studio or rider would add either a .vs or .idea respectively

I think that's the main stuff

https://github.com/microsoft/dotnet/blob/main/.gitignore

there's a lot in here though

a lot of this is really just visual studio stuff

[raw pelican]

Alright I'll look into gitignore. Prior to starting this stardew mod my only uploads were single file R Euler problems so it's still pretty new to me how this all works.

[rotund violet]

VS has a good default gitignore. Never had any junk files appear in the repo.

[scarlet hollow]

Oh man

[safe dragon]

traumas resurfacing

[scarlet hollow]

Naw, just realizing that Dreamweaver is ancient history now

[safe dragon]

lmao

it still gets releases it's ok

[scarlet hollow]

I cut my teeth on Macromedia Dreamweaver

[cinder karma]

Seriously, though

I come from a background where you were a Serious Person if your personal web page was mostly text

[safe dragon]

modern web design dictates that 2 lines of text is the most you're allowed to put on an entire website

soz

[rotund violet]

You'd think all the noises would be annoying. But they're not.

[cinder karma]

Some tables maybe

[scarlet hollow]

Okay okay, I’m a web design old-timer, but I’m not quite that curmudgeonly yet (teasing)

[rotund violet]

Table layouts were awful. But you know what else was awful? An entire subsequent generation of web developers marking up actual data tables using horrendous float and position: absolute hacks because they heard tables were bad.

[safe dragon]

I think people would kick you in the shins and interrogate you now if you use float at all

[cinder karma]

My god

Meanwhile I'm like "simple css drop-down menus using pelican as a static site builder"

"I am a serious person but I can have a little css as a treat"

[rotund violet]

That's so web 1.0.

[cinder karma]

I'm not a real programmer lol

[safe dragon]

you are smh

[rain apex]

Surreal programmer

[rotund violet]

I'm pretty sure a real programmer is anyone who writes code. Writing HTML or JSON, though, that's not real programming.

[pliant snow]

Ahhh macromedia

[cinder karma]

(I'm the other side of the eecs.)

[safe dragon]

focus you'll be happy to know I still use table to this day when I need a table

[pliant snow]

I still have a site i wrote using some macromedia product, what was it...

[safe dragon]

even with grid now existing and honestly probably just being the superior option

[rotund violet]

Good, I think sanity returned to the industry around 2010 or so. But we had a decade of table-everything and then another decade of anti-table everything.

[pliant snow]

Oh excuse me, it was GoLive CyberStudio

[rotund violet]

Flex grid is at least a viable alternative to tables although it's really meant for grid layout. It's like WPF Grid vs. DataTable.

[pliant snow]

Its what dreamweaver replaced i think

[rotund violet]

Well, I guess it's a little more versatile than WPF Grid. But it's still not meant for stuff like bank statements and census tables.

(what am I saying, banks don't even bother with web design for that, they just cram a PDF in your face)

[worn remnant]

🤮 (only at the name. i don't know what it is, and with a name like that i don't want to know)

[pliant snow]

Twas the olden days

[rotund violet]

Everything was "cyber" back then, it was all the rage.

[pliant snow]

I cant remember much about it. Only that it was one of the few products that ran on classic Mac Os

[rotund violet]

There was even a major company named CyberLink.

[worn remnant]

i doubt i could name a true champion of the "worst software name" contest, but Citrix's GoToMyPC is up there

maybe we should set up a bracket and find the true winner

[rotund violet]

Didn't that come after GoToMeeting? I think they were trying to keep the theme going.

[worn remnant]

no idea. it's just such a four-suits-in-a-room kind of name, you know?

people with no taste who control the decision-making power

[rotund violet]

Well, it's Citrix after all. Pretty much all B2B.

[pliant snow]

I just earlier today was fighting with citrix

trying to remote into my work PC with a potential intern hire to show them something and their POS software wouldn't even load the login screen

[rotund violet]

Funny thing is that Citrix was actually the good software back then. The alternatives like VNC were so very, very janky.

[safe dragon]

is POS in this case "piece of shit"

[rotund violet]

I think MS Remote Desktop stole borrowed licensed? Citrix.

[safe dragon]

I've never had any issues with remote desktop

works well

[pliant snow]

dont be silly, POS is always piece of shit

[worn remnant]

memories of IBM SurePOS (operating system for touchscreen concession stand registers)
i know what it was supposed to stand for, but as we know it always means piece of shit

evidence: the reason i know what it was called is that we had to reboot them periodically!

like, they wouldn't make it through a whole shift periodically

[rotund violet]

That would explain a lot of my retail experiences.

"WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DOING ON THAT COMPUTER"

[worn remnant]

struggling

[safe dragon]

I've been working on our POS system today and it continues to be a mystical application that is so convoluted and poorly written yet somehow one of the most stable applications we make

[pliant snow]

https://tenor.com/Rtt1.gif

[rotund violet]

I've found that stability is not necessarily a function of code quality; as long as sufficient time is allocated to bug fixes and the feature-development pace is glacial enough, it's stable.

[subtle zealot]

Citrix.. shudders

[safe dragon]

if you were around yesterday you'd find our feature development pace is anything but glacial

but yeah it has shown to me that good code is not a necessity for a stable product

the POS is some arcane vb.net winforms application with over 100 global variables just to indicate state

[rotund violet]

It depends on the features maybe? If the features are all essentially "more of the same" rather than "significant design change" then you can get away with a lot of churn.

[safe dragon]

we just glue more on top of what is there

use some strong glue

[rotund violet]

I hate to admit it since I like clever solutions, metaprogramming and so on, but there's a lot to be said for terminally boring grug code - a thousand sequential if-then statements with no abstraction but also no nesting isn't fun or interesting to maintain, but can be maintained by pretty much anyone reasonably competent.

[safe dragon]

I love overengineering, it brings me joy

[worn remnant]

gotta agree with time leading to bug fixes leading to stability. code "quality" i consider an illusion, or at least inseparable from stability and reliability as a function of age

[rotund violet]

I do try to throttle my "wtf" reactions when reading code because more than half the time, those "wtfs" are all bug fixes. (They'd be less "wtf" if the author would document the fix; but nevertheless it often turns out they were put there for a very good reason.)

I think we've all felt the need to wash our hands after writing some function or other. At least weekly, if not daily.

[pliant snow]

my code is blessed by angels

[rotund violet]

Sure, until you have to interact with someone else's code.

[safe dragon]

my code is not blessed by anyone not even myself

I wrote some funky ass fix just earlier today

[pliant snow]

actually i some jank architectural thing earlier this week, but it was encouraged by the original author so its okay

[safe dragon]

We had some strange flow in the POS that could cause you to add a product to the cart with a quantity of 0 which would then in some very specific scenario cause a divison by 0 exception

the strangest part is that the code suggested it was intentional to be able to add products with a quantity of 0

I did some patch fix to get the ticket done and hopefully in the future we can actually find the root problem...

(we will never find time to do this)

(this patch fix will live forever)

[rotund violet]

Yup. I always loved having that conversation with the junior engineers.

J: "This is just temporary, I'll refactor the code/write a test/do some other improvement later."
F: "No, it's not, and no you won't. If you don't have time now, what makes you think you'll have time when the whole project/feature is low priority?"

// TODONT

[pliant snow]

oh don't worry, the junior engineers are counting on never getting back to that

[rotund violet]

Ha... depends on the company. I definitely worked with some who just wanted to punch in and punch out. I was thinking more of the smart-but-naive strivers.

[scarlet hollow]

Marking up and notating, respectively

[fleet wren]

fun fact: CSS is turing complete

[scarlet hollow]

The thought process I imagine occurred when our codebase’s current system for creating a destructive confirmation dialog requires 700 lines of boilerplate (real)

[rotund violet]

I was on board until the "better than I anticipated" stage. I think it works exactly as well as they anticipated and no better, but they're just bored/tired of working on it/anxious to tell the boss or TL that they're "finished".

[scarlet hollow]

Imo it depends on your company’s engineering culture. If you’re lucky enough to work at a company that prioritizes quality code above all, then yeah, sure. If you’re at a company that measures your success by ticket completion, on the other hand, you can get pigeonholed into this situation even when you’re not bored or ready to be done

It reminds me of an adage I heard years ago about calling internal validation “stabilization” instead of “testing”. Because it’s way easier for someone unfamiliar with the code to see an MVP, see that it works, and force it out the door prematurely. Using a term that necessarily connotes instability was supposedly a way of breaking through that.

Best company I ever worked for had everyone in the tech org hands-on in the code, all the way up to CTO. So everyone knew when something was a heavy lift and you could have intelligent conversations about requirements and obstacles with the people driving priorities

[safe dragon]

we have a proof of concept that's been running in production for several years now

I remember working on the proof of concept we were making just to see how feasible it was to build in those tools at all only to then be told it'd go live at a client 4 weeks later

even though we hadn't even implemented the core functionality yet

that client was not happy and still does not use that product even though it's fairly mature now

[scarlet hollow]

Is there a term even softer than MVP? Like… minimum unviable product?

Cause… that.

[safe dragon]

mup

[scarlet hollow]

Mup. I like it

Something something muppets

[rotund violet]

Is there a term even softer than MVP?

Yes - prototype or alpha.

[leaden marsh]

Personally I think it depends; the audio system being prototyped for 1.6.9 was just a proof-of-concept, but the performance characteristics were way better than I anticipated even on our lowest end devices

There's a good chance it doesn't get the optimizations/porting to native part that I had originally planned

[rotund violet]

Yeah, but did you check it in as-is? And if so, did you do it because CA is a whip-driver or did you just want to be done?

[scarlet hollow]

Thoughts on Minimum Usable Prototype? Trying to start a trend here /half-joking

[leaden marsh]

Yeah, I did

[safe dragon]

it keeps the mup acronym so I'm happy

[leaden marsh]

We can roll back easily if need be, but I'm rather comfortable with the amount it's been tested

[scarlet hollow]

Perfect. Go team!

[rotund violet]

So isn't that pretty much confirming that it was your call, not pressure from up high?

I'm not accusing of laziness or anything like that, I just think that it's often the developers who decide it's "good enough" and frequently not the managers who insist on rushing out an unfinished product.
(It definitely does happen with managers doing that, just not as often as we like to pretend)

[leaden marsh]

Well I am not going to comment further because we're getting into NDA territory

[rotund violet]

Haha, fair enough

[scarlet hollow]

I can’t speak to “as often as we like to pretend”, but it does sure happen pretty often at my current job

[rotund violet]

Also, as fun as "MUP" is, I'm going to have to go with MCP - Minimum Compiling Product

[scarlet hollow]

What about JIT/interpreted languages?

[devout vault]

MCP will always be Mod Coder Pack to me (minecraft mods)

[scarlet hollow]

No compilation step, no MCP

[rotund violet]

JIT is still compiled, and if you're talking about JavaScript then yes, there is technically a step even below MCP.

[leaden marsh]

Ah yeah, hard agree. Working with CA is great bc it's more of a "it's finished when it's finished" pace

[scarlet hollow]

Thoughts on
Wireframe -> MCP -> MUP -> MVP -> Beta -> RC -> Release?

[rotund violet]

That's what I figured. It was like that at other places I worked, too; yes, the managers wanted it done fast, but what they often wanted more was not to ship something broken, they needed devs to actually tell them that it wasn't ready to ship.

[scarlet hollow]

Let me know if we should add more steps

[rotund violet]

The average dev is Mad Max when fighting nerdy holy wars with other developers, and a mouse when talking to a manager. "Yes, certainly I can get this 1-year project done in 8 minutes, don't worry boss!"

[leaden marsh]

I really was more commenting on the proof of concept side of the meme, about writing clean code & the like

[scarlet hollow]

My only problem is when there’s muddying of the waters between “telling management it’s not ready to ship” and “being the weak link”/“making the team look bad”

Because I get a lot of that

[leaden marsh]

Stardew's decomp is not far from reality

[rotund violet]

I never worried about making the team look bad. I make the team look good.

Sometimes that does involve saying "No, we are not shipping this".

Stardew's decomp is not far from reality

That's a little scary, to be honest.

[scarlet hollow]

Like for this, someone else on the team this morning asked me to close (I.e. mark as complete) the existing implementation tickets for the feature and create new ones for the new sprint, because that looks better for our team’s metrics. Even though the work isn’t done. Imo that’s just not the right way to look at it.

[leaden marsh]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

We do what we can moving forward

[rotund violet]

Yeah, we all understand. Still, one of the pain points of mods is not being able to just edit the source of a monorepo when it's not doing what I want.

Especially when it's doing something deeply ridiculous.

But hey, you can't always go changing a multi-million line code base willy-nilly either, not unless you've got a whole lot of automated testing which no game ever has.

[rotund violet]

Depending on where you work, you might have a UX team that insists on doing their own "prototypes" that are actually interactive and incorporate totally unrealistic expectations of performance and other capabilities. Don't know what you'd call it, but it goes between the wireframe and the MCP.

[scarlet hollow]

Haha, nah, we usually get static Figmas that only illustrate the happy path :)))))))

[rotund violet]

Consider yourself lucky. Not joking.

[safe dragon]

you get figmas?

[scarlet hollow]

Lmfao

[rotund violet]

I've had UX give vague requirements, and I've had UX think they're going to design every flow from end to end, and I much prefer the vague requirements.

[safe dragon]

we had feature recently that was quite difficult to figure out from a UX perspective and we asked for some designer to look at it for like a month only to eventually be told it had to be done soon so we should just figure something out ourselves

[rotund violet]

And it's super frustrating when that happens. But way more stressful when you repeatedly have to explain to UX, "no, we CANNOT run full-screen synchronous layout at 120 fps on the hardware equivalent of a Casio watch in order to accommodate this animation you're asking for"

"Yes, I know the animation 'already works' in your prototype. No, that doesn't mean it will work on the actual device."

[scarlet hollow]

Best I can do on my phone at a moment’s notice

[rotund violet]

Only tangentially related, but one phrase I do not miss hearing is "design system".

[scarlet hollow]

Me after hearing it yesterday

Oh and today I guess

[safe dragon]

I don't think I've ever heard it

but I'm not a native english speaker

my work communication is in dutch

[scarlet hollow]

The internal UI framework that your specific company uses for products

[safe dragon]

ah

[scarlet hollow]

tHaT bUtToN dOeS nOt CoNfOrM tO tHe SeT oF pReDeFiNeD sIzEs

[rotund violet]

"Design system" is basically the pufferfish term for "a bunch of labels we attached to colors or dimensions"

[safe dragon]

see we have don't have that issue cause we have absolutely 0 design consistency whatsoever

[rotund violet]

This is a "system" in the mind of a designer.

[scarlet hollow]

Lucky

Like I get wanting users to have a consistent experience

But there’s a point at which it becomes overboard

[safe dragon]

where will a button be in this popup? no idea. Will enter work to select the positive option? sometimes. Does escape work to close it? Maybe. What color is the header? who knows!

[rotund violet]

I guess there is partly the frustration of having a lot of rules. But what always got me about that phrase was just how pompous it was. It's not a "system". It's a "spec", maybe.

[scarlet hollow]

Good example. Every dialog should either have primary action rightmost or leftmost. That’s an example of a good design system standard.

(If you can stomach it, make it platform dependent to match the native equivalents, even)

But like, what font sizes I’m allowed to use where? Nah

[safe dragon]

we were doing that for a new project to replace one of the old ones but it was deemed to be much work so they're just quietly "forgetting" about it as we have things to do with "higher priority" first

I would like to stop being full stack someday and just only do backend/database work

[rotund violet]

At the other extreme is having to divert 75% of the engineering work every year because UX came up with a new design.

The new design has no quantifiable benefits, mind you. It just looks new. The designers need to keep their jobs.

[scarlet hollow]

Me but front end

🙏

I got to have a good vent session about full stack stuff this morning with one of the staff engineers who just recently rejoined our team

God it felt good to get things off my chest

He was talking about sending me work that would get me a promotion and I was like “don’t know how to tell you this, but I am not gonna be here for very long”

[raw pelican]

I've heard the step below MVP (minimum viable product) to be MVP (minimum viable pizza) from an interview with Andy Budd on Intercom. Where what you have is ever so technically the thing that you are saying it is, but is realistically not anything you would want. A pizza made from the worst quality ingredients and thrown into a 1000 C oven for 4 minutes is technically a pizza, but nobody will buy it.

[rotund violet]

My response to career/promo prompting has always been "hell no, why would I double my workload for 15% more pay?"

For some people maybe, the status is important. Never appealed to me, though.

[cinder karma]

Want to have fun? Look up tempfiles on python

I swear for a high level language I run into more OS funky in python than anywhere else

[cinder karma]

Also, hilarious update on the temperature controller that takes three seconds to get back to me

It dawned on me today that three seconds was the timeout

And indeed setting the timeout lower made it faster

Guess I'll be rewriting their drivers

[rotund violet]

I think I mentioned that at the time - that some of these really garbage protocols don't have a proper ACK/NACK or even "end of transmission" system, instead doing incredibly dumb things like relying on a fixed timeout to decide when to stop receiving.

But you said it was TCP/IP so that's awfully strange.

[rain apex]

are they afraid of you ddos'ing the temp controller

[rotund violet]

It's probably that whatever messaging protocol they use doesn't have a length header, so the drivers have no clue when to stop reading from the socket.
(You could potentially write a streaming driver that inspects the content as it comes in, and just knows when it's hit the end of the message; in practice, that's actually quite difficult and error prone without random access, imagine trying to write a JSON parser from scratch, and JSON is one of the easier choices since it's got distinct open/close braces)

[rain apex]

c string horrorshow

[rotund violet]

Hardware manufacturers often do not understand the issues. So they write protocols that have, for example, an opcode as the first two bytes of a message, and the opcode dictates the next few fields that should be read, and how much more to read after that depends on those first few per-opcode bytes, etc.

This makes total sense when you think entirely in terms of opcodes and registers and so on; it's just garbage as a network protocol.

(And then the people who write the drivers go: "screw this, I'm just going to try to read the maximum message size and give up on timeout")

[cinder karma]

So I hadn't inspected the packets myself, just pulled open their python drivers and was like "okay. They are using standard python tcp libs must be tcp"

[rotund violet]

Makes sense. And even if it is TCP, I suppose that does not prevent them from having a crappy protocol over TCP. (For example, Content-Length headers are part of HTTP, not TCP)

[cinder karma]

Luckily their drivers are all public so I guess tonight when I get home I'll pull apart the c# driver

[rotund violet]

Shouldn't you be doing that on the company's dollar, rather than your own?

[cinder karma]

(It doesn't matter. I'm salaried.)

The reason why "my personal laptop" is important is because I can't just go "hey can I install ghirfia and ilspy on the work laptop?"

[rotund violet]

Eh... being salaried is why it should matter, no? If you weren't salaried, you'd just charge them for the time you spend working on it at home.

Unless you're up against some hard deadline, I guess, and are required to spend as many hours as it takes.

[cinder karma]

(Startup. I knew I was signing away work life balance when I signed the contract.)

[safe dragon]

if you're alright with that kinda thing

I'm a "you pay me for 8 hours so you're getting 8 hours" kinda guy

[pliant snow]

hell yeah

[rotund violet]

The more I progressed in my career, the more often I came to ask myself the inevitable question: "Why should I do this now [off-hours] when I get paid the same to do it tomorrow?"

Exempt employee = you get exactly as much effort and loyalty as your management can inspire.

It's not laziness, just reciprocity. I've been in voluntary on-call groups before; put real effort in, even enjoyed them for the war stories in a perverse way. But they paid for those.

[cinder karma]

(So this is basically accurate. The api is incredibly basic and involves, say, going "read register 699".)

The weird thing is that these are consistent length registers

I know they are four bytes

It's not like I suddenly will receive a variable length array

[regal ingot]

layering a blocking read on top of a buffer filled using non-blocking reads from a network stream is not exactly new

although there are still certainly ways to get data showing up slower than expected if the clients on either end of the network stream are Doing It Wrong™

[scarlet hollow]

Re: work life balance
I am a "you pay me a middling salary so you're getting 8 hours by default" kinda guy

Offer me enough to reasonably buy a house and support a family in a major metro, then yeah, I'll consider it. But even then, that'll more likely just get you more emotional buy-in rather than a portion of my free time.

In fewer words, if you don't respect me as an employee, then I will not respect you as a company. Respecting me as an employee can mean different things. Salary is one, but salary will not buy you my favor if you mislead me in interviews, trick me into an offer with an early termination penalty, and continuously assign me work that I am not qualified to do and then ding me during performance assessments for not doing it fast enough.

Oops, that was more words

[raw pelican]

Thank the Lloyd my company strictly enforces work life balance. They will give you a two week warning to use your vacation if you're approaching cap before they just give you Friday off. You get chastised if you respond to emails outside of work hours. There are team happy hours during work hours where you are not allowed to talk about work.
The only exceptions are if there is a sev1 issue, but they tell you to log the time outside of normal hours you spend on it and take it off the next available day.

[scarlet hollow]

I want to go to there

[raw pelican]

The pay is 70-80% of market is the downside and also probably exactly why it's so nice to work there.

[scarlet hollow]

Aye, there’s the rub

[raw pelican]

Only way they have to keep people to stay.

[scarlet hollow]

Right, yeah

It’s funny though. If we didn’t prioritize shareholder value so goddamn much, the biggest companies would be in the best position to treat their employees right, in terms of raw capital

But more often than not it’s the smaller companies who trade off pay for benefits and perks in order to retain the people disillusioned by the grind

Really makes you think

[raw pelican]

I feel that treating employees right gives better productivity anyway, we're very efficient with the time we have and everybody is happy to be there.

[scarlet hollow]

Right, yeah— I have no doubt

Meanwhile my company laid off all of our quality assurance staff because “the tests are just code; the developers can handle that”

Which, predictably, just increased our workload and made a mess. So now there’s talk of using GPT to run our test suites. You heard correctly—not just to write the tests, but to run them, too!

Man, I sure am yapping. Oopsies

Also, alert to all the gamers in the chat with public-facing apps that use Google short links: goo.gl is going the way of… well most Google products, I suppose. https://developers.googleblog.com/en/google-url-shortener-links-will-no-longer-be-available/

[cinder karma]

Okay this is actually super good

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUl4u3cNGP62UTc77mJoubhDELSC8lfR0&si=V8XJhWSc2qY617At

Watched two lectures already

[scarlet hollow]

Ooh

I do love a good MIT OpenCourseware

[lethal walrus]

Not too surprising, new links were disabled quite a while ago weren't they?

[scarlet hollow]

Yeah, 2018-ish? But that they’re fully getting rid of existing ones with no migration plan? Idk man

Search engine company potentially extincting a portion of the web’s accessible information

[lethal walrus]

It is very odd, agreed

[scarlet hollow]

At least there’s no way this will recommend people eat one small rock per day

[safe dragon]

https://www.securityweek.com/major-outages-worldwide-linked-to-bsod-caused-by-bad-crowdstrike-update/

doesn't seem to affect us, but very fun times

[pliant snow]

I was just looking if anyone in the company chats were having issues lol

[safe dragon]

I'm surprised I haven't seen a single comment about this at work

I know we don't use it but I'd have expected something at least

[pliant snow]

I've seen reports that basically the infrastructure of Australia went down. The ISPs, banks, supermarkets

time to make new customers crumble

[safe dragon]

lmao

well

we technically indirectly have some Australian clients

[scarlet hollow]

Ooh, I can’t wait to sign in and see if anything’s up with us

We self-host a lot of our critical infra so it’ll probably be nothing if I’m honest

[raw pelican]

Cloudstrike fix :

• "Boot Windows into Safe Mode or the Windows Recovery Environment
• "Navigate to the C:\Windows\System32\drivers\CrowdStrike directory
• "Locate the file matching 'C-0000029*.sys', and delete it.
• "Boot the host normally."

Do it manually on all computers. Good luck and have a nice weekend.

Hopefully you have admin rights to your machine or you're waiting for a tech to do it.

[pliant snow]

Happy Friday suckers

Hope someone in IT kept the bitlocker keys

[raw pelican]

Also probably on an affected machine.

[safe dragon]

didn't have this issue but I did have to quickly release a fix 3 minutes before 5 pm

[cinder karma]

What is git diff for "ignore binary files"?

[ivory shadow]

Bold of you to assume I know literally any git cli command without googling it

[pliant snow]

i thought git diff did ignore binary files

[worn remnant]

don't make me tap the sign https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/

[cinder karma]

Well sane people don't commit binary files but I am insane so

Also my dumb ass didn't check the output of a function that dumped info to a csv and now I have python objects instead of ms since epoch

Sigh

This will be fun to parse

[cinder karma]

"Well it should be easy to use a dll in python right? This should be a normal developer flow"

"%1 is not a valid Win32 application"

"Okay maybe not"

[modest jewel]

How do I fix this problem I’m trying to install a mod for stardew it doesn’t let me

[cinder karma]

(Yes with the broken format string)

[raw pelican]

Do you have stardew in a non-default drive (not the main drive your OS is on)?

[rain apex]

!mh

[indigo mist]

For help with modding issues, please ask in #archived-modded-support! When asking for assistance there, sharing an error log will help others identify your issue (see https://smapi.io/log for instructions).

To use this command, type !mh.

[modest jewel]

I’m not sure I don’t think so

I’m new to these stuff I don’t usually use my laptop much

[rain apex]

Atra r u trying to use something with python bindings

[cinder karma]

Yes

Just fyi their example code I just downloaded off their website fails thr same way

[modest jewel]

How do I find stardew valley on my files

[rain apex]

there should be a dir that u just put on PYTHONPATH

[rain apex]

you are too on topic for this channel please go to #archived-modded-support

[modest jewel]

Ok

[rain apex]

or like something you install via pip or equiv

[cinder karma]

Vendor was not that nice

I am supposed to copy four files and use ctypes

[rain apex]

oh they didnt use boost then

[cinder karma]

Their example script fails too

Which I think means I should inspect whether or not this is 32 or 64 bits

...I need to use the 64 bit version of the python interpreter

Frankly given that kt is the year 2024 the idea the interpeter is 32 bit didn't even cross my mind

The problem deepens

Mini conda gave me 32 bit

My normal python install us 64 bit

[rain apex]

what did mini conda mean by this

[cinder karma]

I must have set it up wrong

No that is not it, my void pointers are correctly 8 bytes

Why.

Whyyyyyyy

[rain apex]

what is the windows version of ldd

[cinder karma]

Dependency walker according to stackoverflow

Well I have a lot of errors opening files apparently

Or dumpbin (which would require me to install all of visual studio)

[leaden marsh]

Dumpbin is great

[crystal wren]

Just install WSL and use the real ldd. It'll definitely work exactly as it should on a Windows executable! /j

[rain apex]

i cant believe windows doesn't have built in ldd equiv

[crystal wren]

I can!

[rain apex]

how do ppl live

[cinder karma]

That's a great question

We don't

We suffer and wish for linux

[crystal wren]

Oh yeah, dumpbin like Myuu says! Comes with VS so it isn't ideal, but it's something I guess.

[leaden marsh]

I do really like it though, personally

I have the whole VS toolset and use the VS developer command prompt for my normal command line

[devout vault]

It's funny I know what dependency walker is but never heard of dumpbin and don't remember what ldd does

[rain apex]

the real solution for atra might be email the vendor and hope they respond

[crystal wren]

It's just what someone misspelled their program when thinking of DLLs. /j

[leaden marsh]

Maybe one of the SysInternals tools will work

[crystal wren]

They do pretty much everything under the sun, so I'd imagine one of them will...

[leaden marsh]

The one thing I really needed dumpbin for was seeing exported symbols

[cinder karma]

They helpfully included the header file

(Which is matching what dependency walker tells me)

[leaden marsh]

If I were smart enough to parse the exports from a header file

[rain apex]

my work does a lot of dumb Qt linking management for 3rd party software so that is what ldd is useful for checking

[leaden marsh]

Ahh yeah that makes sense

I had to use dumpbin to verify some of the .dlls we were using for Stardew don't have unnecessary dependencies

It is still ridiculous to me that Microsoft doesn't allow linking against the unversioned visual C runtime through VS

[crystal wren]

Not even with... manual flags?

[leaden marsh]

Well you can by doing some hacks with the driver toolkit or smthg

[crystal wren]

Well that's highly silly.

[leaden marsh]

And some combo of flags

I mean I get it (kinda) it isn't "stable"

But mingw gets around that by only using symbols that existed when VS still linked against that unversioned dll

So idk why VS itself doesn't have the same thing (maybe worried that devs will use it even if they need the full feature set? Idk)

[cinder karma]

Why does dumpbin require me to install all of visual studios

[rain apex]

microsoft doesn't want you to live

[cinder karma]

I regret to inform you my Teams is not down

Also has dependency walker been updated since windows 8

Ahhhh grumbles

[cinder karma]

So the reason why I can't load it is because it is ancient (and has references to dlls that no longer exist)

But I found a newer (64bit) build that loads!

[crystal wren]

It is done. I've finally decided screw it and just ordered a Framework laptop.

[rain apex]

i have one from 2021

been thinking about getting their new amd cpu board

[crystal wren]

That's actually the one I got! They had a couple of factory seconds I nabbed.

Slight screen issues, but I can live with that until I just upgrade it.

[pliant snow]

I also have one from 2021, but did upgrade to the AMD board

[crystal wren]

And I'll be grabbing an AMD board at some point in the future too, yeah.

[pliant snow]

its a solid machine

[sand frost]

The GUI library I was using went commercial in a way that really just feels shitty

And I'm annoyed about it

[crystal wren]

...is it for Python?

[sand frost]

I understand people wanting money for their labor, but doing it very abruptly, adding DRM to the software, making it subscription, etc rubs me the wrong way

Yes, for Python

[crystal wren]

Is it... simple?

[sand frost]

It sure is!

I found some alternatives but I'm still grumpy about it

[crystal wren]

I'd just say PyQt and screw it, honestly.

[sand frost]

I would need to learn PyQt

[crystal wren]

Ah, fair!

[sand frost]

I have seriously considered that alternative

But at this point, my time might be too valuable to do that

Like PyQt would be better for a few reasons, but when step 1 is learn PyQt and step 2 is rewrite the entire project, that just feels bad as a choice

[crystal wren]

It would almost certainly be better, but a complete UI library rewrite and learning a new one is just... that's a lot.

[sand frost]

Yep

I could maybe scrounge up an undergrad to do it, but I feel like I would also need to invest a fair amount of time personally in supervising them so that the code isn't Bad

[crystal wren]

I assume the hobbyist license isn't appropriate?

[sand frost]

No, they specifically say educational applications are only for students

[cinder karma]

....weird

[sand frost]

Using it for teaching or research does not qualify for the hobbyist license

Also, apparently their license terms are Bad

[rotund violet]

You can't just keep using the old version, or did the old version already have an adhesion contract?

[pliant snow]

I've been learning Qt lately and surprised at how much I like it tbh

[sand frost]

The old versions all got yanked

Like, within the last two weeks

[crystal wren]

I really like Qt.

[sand frost]

Yanked? Deleted? idk, they did their best to scrub them off the internet

[crystal wren]

Sounds like they think the old versions would still legally be usable then.

[sand frost]

They weren't successful, in the sense that the old version was LGPL iirc and someone has a fork

I will probably end up using one of the forked-from-last-free versions

[rotund violet]

Yeah, I was going to say, if you either paid for the old version or the old version had a permissive license, they really can't scrub it. The former is illegal and the latter is impossible.

Going all scummy and trying to convert a free-as-in-beer product into a paid model is a great way to lose all your users really fast.

[pliant snow]

could look at tk for python

I think it's even built-in

[sand frost]

I've heard qt is better than tk?

I did a big search into GUI options last August, before all this nonsense

And something Qt-flavored was probably 2nd place

[pliant snow]

I've only used tk for very simple things, but I think qt has a lot more widget selection/better cross platform support

[crystal wren]

For C#, I'm picking Avalonia or one of the various GTK bindings because the Qt bindings are... kinda janky? But anything else, it's Qt for me.

[sand frost]

We definitely need cross platform

The grad students use Windows/Linux and I use Mac/Windows and the lab uses Windows

At least they use some normal Linux distro like Ubuntu

[crystal wren]

I've still got my fork of Tiled I intend to make a Stardew version of when I have enough time...

Automatically nuking directory climbing, being able to specify a phantom source for tilesheet PNGs so you don't need the game's ones in your mod's dev folder, etc.

[rotund violet]

Avalonia doesn't get me all fired up, but I'd still consider it miles ahead of GTK or Qt.

[pliant snow]

GTK wasn't bad to use, but was a massive pain to distribute on windows machines

[sand frost]

I don't know any non-stardew C# and the grad students don't know any, so C# isn't really on the table

The grad students occasionally agitate for C on the grounds of speed, but since they don't know how to write in C this hasn't gotten very far

[rotund violet]

Fair enough, Python options are limited. (And if you think Python GUI is limited, you should see Rust.)

[crystal wren]

areweguiyet?

[rotund violet]

^ Nope

[sand frost]

(I'm not in CS, so the background of most of my students doesn't include a lot of heavy-duty programming skills)

[rain apex]

what about electron

[sand frost]

I can assume basic Matlab and Python skills, but not out of every student, just most

[rotund violet]

Don't think those Matlab skillz are going to help a lot with UI.

[sand frost]

Lmao Matlab has a GUI builder!!

I've even used it, it's all drag and drop

[rotund violet]

I'll bet it does. And I'll bet it's awesome.

[rain apex]

qt has a gui builder too, qt designer

[ivory shadow]

I like Qt, but I rarely get to use it. HTML+CSS is too pervasive.

[sand frost]

Matlab's gui builder is....it's fine. It works. I don't love it, and packaging apps is a huuuuge pain. I only used it because that project was started a couple years before I joined it.

[sand frost]

We also want/have a website, but I have zero website skills

[rain apex]

my other stupid idea is some juypter notebook thing, but i got no idea if that's valid for your use case

[sand frost]

So that's sort of another funky problem with the project

[ivory shadow]

Website skills aren't a bad thing to develop, given the state of things.

[sand frost]

Not really, the need is for something that someone with 0 python skills can use as the end user

In my line of work, website skills would get used sometimes, but since I hate it, there's little reason to build them

[ivory shadow]

That is very fair.

[rotund violet]

Yeah, it'd be good to learn how to throw together a basic website. Then again, that's getting into the territory that GenAI is actually able to do a decent job of.

[sand frost]

I can get nearly as much mileage out of a dumb wordpress site and basic html as I would out of years of learning websites

[crystal wren]

My website skills are from when XHTML was the hot thing.

[rain apex]

u can build qt wasm, it probably sucks

[sand frost]

I can do basic html

[ivory shadow]

I remember back when we needed to have these crazy complex <!DOCTYPE strings and "It's XHTML you need to write valid XML" and stuff and now we just throw any kind of garbage at the browser JavaScript + JSX transpiler

[rotund violet]

I hope you mean TSX.

[crystal wren]

Nowadays htmx is... a thing I think people like?

[ivory shadow]

TypeScript is just JavaScript with anxiety

[rotund violet]

TypeScript is JavaScript with sanity.

[rain apex]

but i like when undefined && true returns undefined \s

[ivory shadow]

I agree that there are benefits to having a type system, but given how half-assed it is I am less sure I'd call it "sanity"

I understand why it's half-assed, but that doesn't change the truth of the situation.

[rotund violet]

TypeScript is half-assed? Definitely disagree there, it's one of the most versatile type systems I've seen anywhere.

[ivory shadow]

It literally doesn't exist at runtime

[rotund violet]

Sure, but really the only practical impact of that is no reflection.

And you don't have reflection in plain JS either.

TypeScript has interfaces, discriminated unions, associative types, function types... it may compile down to something without types but so does C.

[ivory shadow]

Like I said, I understand why it's implemented the way it is. It just doesn't change that it's literally half-assed. It exists at compile time but not runtime.

[rotund violet]

C++ compiles to assembly. No types.

[ivory shadow]

Anyways I'm not here to argue with you over JavaScript.

[ivory shadow]

htmx is just another framework. We don't use it for anything at work. There's no compelling reason to learn all of that framework instead of just continuing to use Vue (or React for the couple projects using that).

[cinder karma]

God ctypes are annoying

[crystal wren]

Awww... well that's disappointing. I was hoping it was an actual thing I might like rather than want to avoid if possible.

[scarlet hollow]

https://hackers.town/@1dark1/112813891135734057

[ivory shadow]

It's possible htmx could be useful for you, for simple pages.

[cinder karma]

Kernel died, blah blah exit code, reason = ?

[ivory shadow]

But it's basically a layer of glue that's like "oh this tag has this property, we'll attach some event handlers"

Which jQuery did 20 years ago

[rotund violet]

Wow, they still use the term "AJAX" in their docs.

I haven't heard that in... a long time.

[ivory shadow]

Honestly now that I put it that way, it does feel very jQuery to me.

[crystal wren]

jQuery is about as deep as I think I ever want to go.

Or will ever need to go if I have the ability to make my own choices.

[ivory shadow]

Also yeah the use of the term "AJAX" is hilarious to me

I didn't realize it was the early 2000s

I should check their source, see if they're using XMLHttpRequest instead of fetch

[lethal walrus]

yep (3.7.1)

[ivory shadow]

lmfao what even is this this is the early 2000s https://github.com/bigskysoftware/htmx/blob/master/src/htmx.js

It's all just a single massive file

[rotund violet]

If you just want something that's "vanilla HTML friendly", doesn't have a really steep learning curve on its own, etc., then probably the best choice is Vue.

[rain apex]

We find hot new trends in the industry & then build the opposite of that

[rotund violet]

It's popular enough that it's easy to get support, but doesn't immediately start introducing a lot of arcane concepts like Angular or Svelte do.

[rotund violet]

("Maybe it's minified?")

• Nope, that's the actual source. 5000 lines in one file.

Almost reminds me of RecyclerView.java. Painful, painful memories.

[atomic musk]

Given this implementation in two assemblies (consumer and provider), which only share these two interfaces:

public interface IFrameworkAPI
{
    public ICustomDataProxy { get; set; }
}

public interface ICustomDataProxy
{
    public ISomeOtherType FooBar { get; set; }
}

and these only on the framework provider's assembly:

public class FrameworkAPI: IFrameworkAPI
{
  public ICustomDataProxy CustomData { get; set; }
}

public class CustomDataProxy: ICustomDataProxy
{
    private readonly CustomData _data;

    public ISomeOtherType FooBar
    {
        get => _data.FooBar;
        set => _data.FooBar = (SomeOtherType) value
    }
}

public class CustomData
{
    public SomeOtherType FooBar { get; set; }
}

so ICustomDataProxy and CustomData have the same data properties, but one uses interface types and the other uses class types (due to system constraint)
and the API switches between the two

is proxy the correct pattern name here? or is this more of a facade, or another pattern type?

[rotund violet]

A proxy (in Castle or Pintail terms) means a type - usually a generated type - that forwards all requests to some inner type. You could call what you're doing a proxy, maybe, but unless CustomDataProxy is a generated type, I would probably just call it an adapter or wrapper.

The term 'proxy' has special meaning, it's most often a type that's entirely invisible to the user.

This API looks really hard to use. Are you sure you really need all these layers? Does your library do something with the custom data or is it just a storage bin?

I know that Pintail requires interfaces for any unknown types, but I'm still not sure why you don't just use object customData or Dictionary<string, string> customData.

[atomic musk]

ohhh, adapter pattern... I forgot about that one

the internal data structure has to be this way because it's a model used by Content Patcher

so the simplest description to this implementation is something that converts an interface that uses interface types to the same interface with class types

[rotund violet]

So CustomData is something that already exists, and has to exist independently?

[atomic musk]

yes

[rotund violet]

Yeah, I wouldn't call it a proxy. Pintail is generating the proxy, you don't ever see it. ICustomDataProxy should really just be ICustomData. And CustomDataProxy is correctly CustomDataWrapper or CustomDataAdapter.

[atomic musk]

ah... I had ICustomDataProxy as ICustomData but changed it for this example because I thought it was weird CustomData doesn't use the inferface with the same name lmao 😅

I like CustomDataAdapter though

[rotund violet]

That's common. You have to interface with some 3rd-party API that only defines a concrete class, there's no interface type. So you write your own interface type with the same name, knowing that it doesn't implement that interface, then write an adapter/wrapper/facade.

Happens all the time when writing tests.

[cinder karma]

Have you ever seen vscode just refuse to accept the file on disk has changed

I literally closed and reopened vscode

[safe dragon]

I think there’s some command to refresh

[cinder karma]

There js one

I'm just surprised closing and opening isn't programmed to yeet thr cache

Anyways

50ms per api call

💖 this is more like it

[safe dragon]

depending on the api that is either unacceptable or really good

[cinder karma]

Well it was three full seconds yesterday

[safe dragon]

a nice improvement

[cinder karma]

Also I'm more or less annoyed python won't give me a warning when I fuck up type signatures

[safe dragon]

a common annoyance

[cinder karma]

It's kinda my fault for forgetting to install mypy on this machine but still

[crystal wren]

A thing I just discovered: Tiled doesn't use CMake.

[leaden marsh]

wait really

what does it use

[crystal wren]

It uses a C++ build system that I think I might... Actually like?

A new one to me. Qbs?

[leaden marsh]

never heard of it

[crystal wren]

Same, but I think I actually like it.

[devout vault]

Is that the qt one?

It's been so long since I did my Tiled PRs that I've forgotten

[leaden marsh]

tho not surprising, i still use makefiles

[crystal wren]

It's by the Qt people I think yeah, but not QMake.

But it actually looks good.

[leaden marsh]

that's awesome

I wrote a small build system for my personal projects, but i should really take the time to actually learn some other ones

[crystal wren]

All I know is the build systems are the number one thing keeping me from doing more C++. But now, who knows?

[devout vault]

The number one thing keeping me from doing more C++ is C# being a thing

[leaden marsh]

true

if I'm doing manual memory management at this point I prefer C

if I want to prototype fast, I use Python

[crystal wren]

C++ is a bit of a weird place though, yeah.

[leaden marsh]

if i want a middleground, C#

my biggest qualm is that there's not as much in the way of metaprogramming

tho i imagine many devs would consider that a strength instead

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[devout vault]

Meta programming is fun

I can't recall at the moment but there have definitely been cases when I wanted templates over generics

[crystal wren]

Just look how nice this root level qbs file is.

https://github.com/mapeditor/tiled/blob/master/tiled.qbs

[leaden marsh]

a beauty, really

[pliant snow]

Qmake is actually pretty straightforward I find, at least for simple stuff

[rotund violet]

With incremental source generators, metaprogramming in C# is kind of a thing. It's not the same as template metaprogramming, but I'd call it metaprogramming regardless.

On the extreme side, Rust's proc macros beat out C++ templates for metaprogramming IMO, you can literally define any DSL and it doesn't have to be valid Rust at all.

[cinder karma]

Meanwhile, we use python because people know python

[rain apex]

My work writes python with python all the time

[lethal walrus]

I have written VBA with python

[supple ether]

:(

[cinder karma]

So do I!

Exec

Anyways

Cursed docs

"Wildcard searching will not work on Chinese, Japanese, and Korean systems"

Question

Why does Program Files and Program Files (x86) exist?

Why is NI in both?

[supple ether]

... why does the x86 folder exist

[fleet wren]

"64bit in the former, 32bit in the latter" is less a standard and more a gentle suggestion. If you give me a random installer exe and tell me to predict which folder it'll get installed to at gunpoint I'd die

[supple ether]

if it's a newer app it might even install in like, appdata or some shit

[cinder karma]

Yeah

Fucking conda does

Pisses me off

[supple ether]

it's evil

[cinder karma]

Also like

I like to believe that equipment worth 10k+ needs you know

Up to date and correct docs included

[supple ether]

I know it's nostalgia speaking but honest to god I installed a (very old) game on CD the other day and the install was slow (because CD read speeds) but my god the post-install experience was so wonderful. It had a whole-ass detailed readme including troubleshooting tips. no bullshit drm, no 1gb update downloads, no account required.

And the best part is that this like 20 year old game just ran fine first try. (though I had to manually edit the settings file to get 16:9 1080p since the ingame options didn't go that high)

[rain apex]

20yr old is 2004 that's like half life 2 age

[cinder karma]

NI: "so this device is has a state machine. If you fuck it up we will throw an error at you. What are the states? Well, we documented them at this dead link."

[pliant snow]

gotta get yourself one of them new fangled 54x CD readers

[supple ether]

it's rollercoaster tycoon 3 so it was literally released in 2004

The version I have is from 2006 though I think since it has both expansion packs

[cinder karma]

Had a nice long bitch session about NI with a coworker

Definitely feel better about that

[safe dragon]

Ninja Implings

ah it's national instrument

[rotund violet]

I think of Native Instruments when I see the acronym.

[latent bough]

I have made the very poor decision to learn cobol

[pliant snow]

ah, trying to get into the banking industry

[latent bough]

well

I just know they're short on people who do cobol and I like money

/hj

I already write programs in other languages

it can't be completely awful, especially if I can omit line numbers

[supple ether]

I've been tempted to learn it just for fun but I have too many other projects

[worn remnant]

welp, time to boot up openrct2 again, dangit wren

[fleet wren]

TIL COBOL is still being updated (latest standard is 2023)

[cinder karma]

ooh, this is helpful

source!

okay I'm overcomplicating this

[rotund violet]

Fun fact: Primary constructor parameters can be null when read from a Lazy initializer. Compiler doesn't say anything is wrong, but... something is definitely wrong.

[latent bough]

fr?

[latent bough]

I do the same thing tbh I have had like zero time to play videogames or work on fun projects due to work projects taking my time

[ivory shadow]

I used a CancellationTokenSource recently. I really need to get into C# multithreading more. Most of my C# experience is single-threaded, and Stardew definitely doesn't help with that.

[cinder karma]

Tbh threading in c# quickly became unpleasant

I recall things like "what do you mean I can't use enums with volatile" and "ugh I don't like how passing things to my worker thread scrubs types"

Stillll a million miles above python threading which I consider absolutely terrible

C# has some nice friendly types, a good parallel library

[ivory shadow]

Python threading may as well not exist till they make fundamental changes to CPython (tho I have heard they're working on killing the GIL)

[cinder karma]

I am recalling how to do atomics in python

In particular I'm recalling the part where you pass the constructor a 'd' for a double. (Yes, the first parameter was a string parameter for the type of your atomic)

Anyways I wish I had more c# multithreaded experience too but shockingly enough my day to day life doesn't include c# 😛

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, most of my day to day coding is still JS or TS

The less said about threading there the better.

Well I mean workers aren't awful awful

[cinder karma]

Yeah the less we can say about python threading the better

Frankly it would almost be better if it didn't exist lol

C#'s is fine. More than fine really I'm just being a little bitch

[ivory shadow]

The only reason it has existed at all is for I/O. Which is dumb because there are better ways to wait for I/O than a separate thread.

Good luck with the GIL

[cinder karma]

I mean, like, I'm now spawning 200+ separate processes 😛

(Not all at the same time)

[ivory shadow]

(Sorry I couldn't help it)

[cinder karma]

Yeah it's a nutty thing to do. Did I mention most of these subprocesses are calls to pdflatex?

[ivory shadow]

What about pypy? Does that... exist still? I remember that having less GIL concerns.

[cinder karma]

(I had two things I wanted threaded python for. That was the first. The second is possibly better handled by an async/await model)

[ivory shadow]

pdf, latex, and python. A trifecta of things I don't want to touch 😄

I haven't actually had to use latex since the early 2010s.

[cinder karma]

One thing I enjoy about latex is quickly being able to make changes with sed

If you are questioning my sanity you are correct to do so.

[ivory shadow]

Nothing wrong with sed. It's a good utility.

[cinder karma]

Incidentally I wish more c# types would expose a property to tell you whether or not they have been disposed

Just a simple .IsDisposed would be great

[thin estuary]

Should have been part of IDisposable

[cinder karma]

(I was trying to figure out if CancellationTokenSource.TryReset was what I wanted, couldn't figure it out from the docs, so I just jumped to the source code.)

[ivory shadow]

yesssssssss

I completely agree

[cinder karma]

Incidentally I used the VS "edit function signature" magic right click menu today and it didn't die mostly

[worn oar]

Does anyone have any advice for how to get into the programming industry?

[safe dragon]

break the interviewer’s ankles

(do you have a formal degree?)

[worn oar]

I do not, I've been learning on my own through Coursera and doing projects

I was on track to get a job with this company but it fell through yesterday and I'm currently looking for jobs in my town but they're mostly for senior devs

[safe dragon]

I’m not really sure tbh. I’ve heard the market has changed a fair bit since I dealth with finding a job

[worn oar]

That's fair, thank you anyway!

[marble jewel]

I can only speak from my perspective, but I've probably interviewed 50+ data engineers for my team, and what impresses me the most are those who are self-starters. So you don't have to know anything, but you basically can take responsibility for your own development.

[crystal wren]

My perspective as someone who isn't even close to in the industry...

1. Learn things on your own
2. Actually make things well on your own
3. ???

[marble jewel]

There are a lot of people who talk about their experience doing things as part of a team where they can only explain "I did it this way because that's what I was told"

[crystal wren]

Those are what would impress me, anyway!

[marble jewel]

Or people who boast huge accomplishments, but can't really speak to their individual contribution

[safe dragon]

“I saved the country of france”

[marble jewel]

I've worked with a lot of people who take credit for others work, so I look out for those red flags

[worn oar]

Like I built a website guide for Stardew valley just to see if I could without taking a course so I feel confident in figuring out how to do things I don't know

There's just not many jobs here that don't require a degree, 3-5 years experience and/or relocating

[crystal wren]

One thing's for sure... having actual projects you've started and finished on your portfolio will only ever work in your favour, I'm pretty sure.

[marble jewel]

That would be a good sign for me. I don't know if everyone does this, but if a candidate puts their github on their resume, I'll look at it

And I'm specifically looking for real/active contributions

Too many link their github only to have a few dead repos

[safe dragon]

if it passes the automatic AI review anyway that companies apparently use a lot nowadays

[crystal wren]

Note to self: If ever applying for job with Matt, do not put GitHub on CV. /j

[marble jewel]

Like, don't bother linking if that's the case

[worn oar]

I did put the general link to my repository cause there's a few small projects in there and then a specific link to the website repository I made

[safe dragon]

I’ll link my github to my singular open source contribution ever (rewriting some documentation)

[rain apex]

pls look at my github its got a bunch of stuff i made for this mobile game that went out of service years ago

[marble jewel]

I guess to clarify, a lot of fresh out of college candidates link to repos that have like three assignment projects they did, but it doesn't demonstrate whether they're well-versed in git or working on a collaborative project

[worn oar]

I guess I'm mostly struggling with who to reach out to, to look for jobs

[rain apex]

getting industry atm is tough due to overall economy state

[worn oar]

So would you recommend doing more personal projects?

[marble jewel]

Yeah, it's tough because a lot of experienced devs were laid off and you're competing with them

[worn oar]

Yeah I know

[marble jewel]

I'm actually in the process of backfilling a senior dev right now

[worn oar]

The company I was supposed to work for was in the process of getting my paperwork in order when the CEO/other guy I met with got laid off and the one who started my hiring process got demoted

[marble jewel]

I've had it happen once where I was in the middle of looking for a candidate, and after interviewing a bunch of people and getting ready to make an offer, I was told the role was going away

[crystal wren]

Wow.

That's some bad luck.