I just view it as an existing idea generator, which... is honestly kinda what it is.
#programmers-off-topic
crystal wren
supple ether
yeah I can see that
sand frost
that part definitely concerns me
marble jewel
I've even used it for stupid simple things. I wanted to quickly get some rgb values to represent the seasons, I was like ChatGPT give me RGB values for winter, summer, spring, and fall
sand frost
ah, i find picking colors the fun part 😆
supple ether
I don't think GPT is necessarily useless but I don't personally have any interest in it, and I think its usefulness is dramatically overstated
(because people want to make money off of it)
sand frost
one of my friends from grad school was really trying to sell me on chatgpt, and I came away with the sense that it does really help some people, but I don't happen to be a person for whom it would be gamechanging
safe dragon
I use copilot as a very handy generally smarter autocomplete but I pretty much never let it do more than just finish the current line of code I'm writing.
I've tried to use all the chat stuff they've introduced but it just does not work for me and has only ever wasted me time
crystal wren
one of my friends from grad school was really trying to sell me on chatgpt, and ...
And importantly. I don't want to become someone it's game changing for!
supple ether
the only chatbot I will ever have respect for is nostalgebraist-autoresponder. RIP Frank you were a real one
safe dragon
I do use chatgpt extensively but not programming related at all. It's a very very useful translator. Significantly better than machine translators by a mile, especially for colloquial speech/slang
and it's a lot more convenient that having to wait for some response on a "ask a native" website
strange copper
I always wonder what you do when you get a job with proprietary information you can't put in gen ai
indigo mistBOT
@strange copper You leveled up to Cowpoke. You can now speak in our voice channels and share images in all channels!
pliant snow
same thing that happens when they get a job after just copying the answers off stack overflow
supple ether
I always wonder what you do when you get a job with proprietary information you ...
a lot of people are probably putting it in anyways, not realizing the implications
strange copper
a lot of people are probably putting it in anyways, not realizing the implicatio...
Kinda terrifying 😭
crystal wren
I always wonder what you do when you get a job with proprietary information you ...
Run it locally! 
safe dragon
honestly I wonder what these chatgpt people are going to be like at all in a realworld development project. Like if you've only ever copy pasted code from chatgpt, have you even developed the ability to understand written code well enough to figure out where to go in an existing codebase?
supple ether
ah yes with my rack of 4080tis that I definitely have
crystal wren
Exactly!
strange copper
Everyone has them so
sand frost
Propietary jobs should have racks tho
safe dragon
I replaced my heating with a nice LLM server!
supple ether
something something wonka experience
marble jewel
Thing is, it's a tool like any other tool. A handyman can get by using an old fashioned screwdriver, but may still find a drill to be helpful. It's also about who is using the tool and how they use it.
supple ether
strange copper
Propietary jobs should have racks tho
Last place I worked had some random server my team remoted into and when there were no resources I'd always see who was using all the gpu compute so I could sulk at my desk lol
crystal wren
Mae!
sand frost
You have become the thing you swore to destroy!
strange copper
You have become the thing you swore to destroy!
I had so much fun doing it
crystal wren
Yeah, what I would actively say is a good use of generative AI is to train on your own code base if it's extensive enough. That can be genuinely useful.
sand frost
It was very fun the time we used most of the 256gb of ram
safe dragon
my office runs a lot of servers by necessity but all of the test environments for the entire business are thrown onto a single system with 4 GB or ram so all the test environments are slow as fuck and constantly hitting ram limits
sand frost
Fun and also nerve wracking
Because if we hit the ram cap our model was going to choke and die
devout vault
Yeah, what I would actively say is a good use of generative AI is to train on yo...
Brb training an AI on my Sdv mods so I never am needed for updates again
sand frost
I miss having stupid fancy computers
crystal wren
Brb training an AI on my Sdv mods so I never am needed for updates again
That would be a genuinely fantastic experiment, though.
strange copper
Brb training an AI on my Sdv mods so I never am needed for updates again
I'm pretty new here, but are you spacechase?
devout vault
Yes
strange copper
Thank u lol
safe dragon
shame that training an AI is a very expensive thing to do
devout vault
One day I’ll update my nexus username
sand frost
I doubt you can train an LLM on that much unless you heavily rely on transfer learning stuff
safe dragon
vscode 
lethal walrus
*opens mod dump in vscode to see if it survives*
devout vault
Speaking of ai, it’d be fun to train one to play SDV. I saw a pre trained for general game use one at some point, but the tab was on my old computer
safe dragon
vscode is cursed for me idk. Every time I try to use it anywhere I run into tons of errors and nothing ever wants to work
lethal walrus
little bit of lag when opening the nexus folder, but survived
strange copper
Speaking of ai, it’d be fun to train one to play SDV. I saw a pre trained for ge...
Someone get some PhD student on that
supple ether
yeah, SDV is pretty complex, it would be interesting to see how that works
strange copper
It'd be interesting to see what the goals of the ai would be. Are they friendly? A joja member?
safe dragon
I feel like sdv wouldn't be that bad to train for
strange copper
Are they optimizing money?
supple ether
it would be interesting to see how a bot ran perfection
strange copper
How many hours...
safe dragon
99% chance an AI would pick joja even just because it's much easier to accidentally stumble into paying for tasks than happening to have the correct item to put into the bundle
lethal walrus
little bit of lag when opening the nexus folder, but survived
surprisingly opens the 3.6m line cache file fine
safe dragon
wouldn't be surprised if the LSP for whatever that is has a limit in place after which is essentially just shuts itself down
supple ether
one of the things I always thought was kind of funny about the whole "ai is going to replace programmers!!!" thing is that if that was actually going to happen any time soon, then they would just be training the AIs to generate compiled code instead of uncompiled human-readable code
devout vault
This was the video that made me think of the ai playing stardew thing https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DcYLT37ImBY
safe dragon
AI might make programmers more efficient but all that will do is make management expect us to do even more till we reach a point where the actual programming is only 10% of the job cause it's so efficient and the rest is arguing with management about their requirements.....
devout vault
I can’t recall the library I found later though
pliant snow
AI might make programmers more efficient but all that will do is make management...
wow, only 90% arguing with management
that'll be a great improvement
safe dragon
supple ether
programming is important but soft skills are just as important
safe dragon
I went to the office today which I usually don't so I heard all the fuckin discussions about why stuff wasn't done yet and that we really need "hone in" on getting the high priority items done as if that wasn't what we are already doing and some endless argument about how we are working on the things that are high priority which they for some reason refuse to believe and thing we are developing some random side project for fun instead or something
pliant snow
that bodes well
safe dragon
management's solution to any deadline is to tell us even more that we need to get things done as if we gain a speed boost every time they tell us something we already know
marble jewel
It's simple, just get double the amount of work done in half the time
safe dragon
ez
they ask us why stuff hasn't been tested yet and what the testers are doing when we've been asking for them to hire more testers for 3 years straight
😩
programming is fun but man
marble jewel
It's okay, we'll cut the time in half, release a half-working product, and then spend the rest of the original timeline on bug tickets
supple ether
management's solution to any deadline is to tell us even more that we need to ge...
wow that sounds familiar and I don't even work an office job
all management is the same
strange copper
they ask us why stuff hasn't been tested yet and what the testers are doing when...
You guys are getting testers?
crystal wren
management's solution to any deadline is to tell us even more that we need to ge...
Reminds me of the ||snail race|| in Undertale.
safe dragon
we do have testers yes. Two of em rn for 12 developers
the testers also write the automated testing btw so it's quite time intensive
well, the E2E stuff
we do the unit tests
crystal wren
Who tests the tester, though?
safe dragon
management tests their patience that's for sure
devout vault
Haha
safe dragon
our head of security has no technical knowledge at all
it's some manager's partner who got that position "somehow"
I don't know what a prist is
oh
me googlin one acronym after the other
ok I know CVE
CNA seems to the college of north atlantic
devout vault
(On a completely unrelated note, would someone please abolish perforce? Git makes so much more sense to me)
safe dragon
I don't think we have anything official in place. We keep track of any security issues for the libraries that we use and we get pen testers every 6 months or so to test stuff + we go through some procedure every year for some security certification
but apart from CVE I've never heard of these acronyms
honestly these pages might as well be random marketing words I don't really understand what they actually do
other than give classes and stuff
you're doing this on purpose
I feel like my company is too insignificant to be finding vulnerabilities like that
some random 100 ish people company in the netherlands just buildin services
idk, we get security certification done but what exactly that is or how it's called. I know it's another acronym with a whole bunch of numbers behind it but can't ask me what it is
if you're lucky it's published on our company's website and I can tell you
I know they use it as a marketing point to clients but I can't find it on the website rn
ISAE 3402
I think
it's at least something we're marketing
acronyms will be the death of me
security people
tech people
safe dragon
tech people <:hc_pensive:901611983378481183>
without context this could be about many different things
tech people continuing to do everything in their power to figure out ways to not have to directly write SQL code
supple ether
tech people are so obsessed with acronyms that we even found ways to do it to single words that were too long (i18n)
safe dragon
i18n and l10n
supple ether
tech people continuing to do everything in their power to figure out ways to not...
why use sql when you can use xml and xpath /s
supple ether
I used to be a chronic variable-named-shortener. even now I still get the itch sometimes
sand frost
That’s pronounced ally, of course 😛
supple ether
oh that's a fun one
safe dragon
I used to be a chronic variable-named-shortener. even now I still get the itch s...
you'll love a popular programming philosophy in the haskell world. point-free programming. Writing functions in such a way that you can omit the variable names completely
I personally despise it
if anything I lean more towards the overly descriptive variable names. ProductScancodeParsingHelper
supple ether
the thing with compressing code is that there's a goblin in me that always wants to do it, and then the rest of me is always like "no, you're going to have to read this later and if you do that it will suck."
that said I'm still a sucker for ternaries and bracketless conditionals in c#
safe dragon
I mean both of those are just nice
they don't obscure any information
I use ternary operators extensively
I've used at least like... 5 of em today alone
in my very painful slow process of rewriting some 5000 lines of SQL stored procedures into (primarily) C# code
supple ether
return
tilesWide >= 7 ? .05f :
tilesWide is 6 ? .66f :
tilesWide is 5 ? .75f :
tilesHigh >= 5 ? .80f :
tilesHigh >= 3 ? 1.0f :
tilesWide <= 2 ? 2.0f :
tilesWide <= 4 ? 1.0f :
.1f; ```couldn't use a switch pattern because of the mixed conditions
karmic frost
did someone already put k8s here
karmic frost
literally k8 bc theres 8 letters its shortening 💀
lethal walrus
(what's l10n?)
supple ether
localization
lethal walrus
ahh
safe dragon
```cs
return
tilesWide >= 7 ? .05f :
tilesWide is 6 ? .66f :
tilesWide is ...
that's one hell of a list of conditions
supple ether
it's how the base game determines furniture scaling lol
safe dragon
usually when people say i18n they really also include l10n
pliant snow
```cs
return
tilesWide >= 7 ? .05f :
tilesWide is 6 ? .66f :
tilesWide is ...
this is a war crime
supple ether
again, the logic is the same as the base game
if I wanted something to have the same scaling I either had to do it that way or reverse-engineer the resulting truth table
safe dragon
honestly the main thing I don't like is the use of is instead of ==. I know functionally it does not do anything different in this scenario but it just doesn't fit man
supple ether
fair
pliant snow
I'd be more willing if they were in order
safe dragon
but then the logic would be different
pliant snow
then adjust for that
safe dragon
I'd probably attempt to figure out some formula to work with that replaces this manual process
supple ether
yeah I didn't feel like mapping out all possible inputs and outputs for both dimensions and then rewriting them as something more sensible
seemed complicated and likely to cause bugs
part of the problem is that I couldn't simply use the maximum dimension, since the game treats height and width differently for scaling for whatever reason
otherwise it would've been a lot easier to rewrite in algebra
winged forge
So a lot of people talk about jailbreaking their Nintendo switch to get mods how would I do that and is it relatively safe? Should I just forget about doing it? I'm getting my own switch lite super soon so I want to know
winged forge
Oh had no idea or i wouldn't have asked
lethal walrus
Switch modding is general is fine as long as it doesn't go into piracy AFAIK
winged forge
Honestly I might just get stardew on my computer when I get one at least to play regularly when I don't play with my mom
lethal walrus
I would much more recommend this option
vagrant pilot
Hey guys, I'm having some trouble trying to mod sdv. I've done it before and have downloaded the new SMAPI for the new update and followed all the instructions however my mods still won't run. I've got the purple 'alerts' in smapi telling me what mods have new updates (mainly want sdv expanded) so I went through and downloaded all of them, placing them in the right file and I tried to extract them but still are all compressed as a ZIP file. I'm guessing I probably have to extract each individual file into my mods folder but I want to see what people think incase ir doesn't work and there's something I've done wrong
thin estuary
!mh
indigo mistBOT
For help with modding issues, please ask in #archived-modded-support! When asking for assistance there, sharing an error log will help others identify your issue (see https://smapi.io/log for instructions).
devout vault
safe dragon
I have no idea what perforce is man, in my eyes it's already abolished
devout vault
(I shelved a CL for review that included a binary file, not knowing that that unchecks out the file, so now I’ll have to redo my changes once it’s available again)
It’s a source control software
safe dragon
Perforce Helix Core is the leading version control system for teams who need to accelerate innovation at scale.
"accelerate innovation at scale" is some nonsense phrase I'd expect in an apple keynote
crystal wren
That's the old sell-tech-illiterate-upper-management-on-your-product-speak™️!
safe dragon
and man does it work
safe dragon
using a lot of words to say nothing is an important part of corporate life
management, politicians, people trying to sell you a scam...
latent bough
love unova
Mhm, the unfinished thing is that it's missing a couple locations still
but the gui fully works which I think is epic
pliant snow
what UI framework is that?
worthy field
funny thing, it was adding things to Elle's better animals content patcher bundle that taught me how to program these kinds of mods... and once more I return to Elle's cutter animals to learn.
latent bough
what UI framework is that?
JavaFX... lol
safe dragon
smh should be using some hyped modern framework instead
tried to think of examples but I'm realized all the hyped ui frameworks are web ones
flutter is the only thing I can think of
crystal wren
Hyped UI framework + Electron is always the way to not go.
crystal wren
I'd happily take that over Electron anything!
safe dragon
it's kind of wild how web somehow took over non web applications
lethal walrus
smh not enough go
hyped ui framework + Wails
crystal wren
This is entirely unrelated, but I thought you might enjoy (read: hate) this: apparently, Windows has decided the clipboard needs to completely stop functioning for me after a bit of uptime nowadays.
Which is something I had NO IDEA was a thing that would even be plausible.
lethal walrus
lovely
the windows clipboard is fun sometimes
win + v just.. doesn't let me use the most recent one
devout vault
I've never seen Win+V before, interesting
safe dragon
I don't think I've ever had a clipboard stop functioning to me and I've run some janky clipboard managers on linux before
win+v is a blessing, just don't use it for passwords 😌
crystal wren
I swear Microsoft is trying to force me back to maining Linux.
safe dragon
fwiw the clipboard still works for me on windows
safe dragon
I swear Microsoft is *trying* to force me back to maining Linux.
thank you microsoft
sure love that the first result I get is a framework that does not support linux at all and still dares to call itself cross-platform desktop
honestly, having using it professionally I can't even say it's all that great for Windows itself. It's very buggy and clearly just a half broken port of xamarin that's worse for everyone
lethal walrus
sure love that the first result I get is a framework that does not support linux...
desktop and mobile
safe dragon
it's got android down 👍
lethal walrus
huh
safe dragon
maui is just the successor to xamarin.forms which as far as I know worked well for android at the very least
I haven't tried it though
lethal walrus
ah
safe dragon
all I know is that maui sucked for windows
crystal wren
C# + non-web UI = Avalonia in my mind.
safe dragon
I can't cause I don't think there's any other answer to that
I think there's like Uno or something
lethal walrus
Vsc supports regions on python
oh interesting
pliant snow
I don't think I've ever had a clipboard stop functioning to me and I've run some...
My clipboard often empties itself if i close the source of what i copied before pasting
safe dragon
that's how wayland works by default I think
ah yeah it's the same for me rn
you'd have to use something like clipman for it to persist after closing an application
or go for a full clipboard history solution like cliphist I guess
for the windows + v equivalent
thin estuary
@cinder karma this is the series of articles about building a regex engine i mentioned some time ago https://kean.blog/post/lets-build-regex
cinder karma
Huh
lethal walrus
oh the horror
safe dragon
proper email address validators are insane
cinder karma
What, look for an @ and try to send an emajl?
safe dragon
that's more what I'd do out of convenience
this is the original RFC822 compliant regex to validate if an email address is correct
specifically this is the one used by perl
newer specs are not as terrible at least
now it's just ([!#-'*+/-9=?A-Z^-~-]+(\.[!#-'*+/-9=?A-Z^-~-]+)*|"([]!#-[^-~ \t]|(\\[\t -~]))+")@([!#-'*+/-9=?A-Z^-~-]+(\.[!#-'*+/-9=?A-Z^-~-]+)*|\[[\t -Z^-~]*])
which still looks pretty ridiculous but at least it's somewhat possible to figure out
lethal walrus
wow
lethal walrus
eh, I'll keep to my .+@[A-Za-z0-9\-_\.]\.[a-zA-Z]{2,}
sand frost
I was upset when a hyphen in my actual work email was rejected by a supplier form
lethal walrus
wow
lethal walrus
(what's the emoji in your name? it doesn't render for me)
safe dragon
lethal walrus
eh, I'll keep to my `.+@[A-Za-z0-9\-_\.]\.[a-zA-Z]{2,}`
actually I forgot +s
ahh
one of these new fancy ones
safe dragon
is at least what my pc makes of it
devout vault
Why is your face melty
lethal walrus
🫠
sand frost
my face is melty because I was traveling all the time through Jan-mid-March
and I'm switching jobs this summer
safe dragon
there go my weekend plans
marble jewel
I have an urge to upgrade my NAS to a few of these, but I know I shouldn't. https://www.westerndigital.com/products/internal-drives/wd-red-pro-sata-hdd?sku=WD240KFGX
regal ingot
I see that they put that it's CMR on the datasheet now instead of leaving you to guess
marble jewel
I think I'm addicted to storage and data redundancy
safe dragon
an expensive addiction
marble jewel
It's trauma from having data loss last year
The lights in my apartment were flickering, and I found my pc had lost power. After that it wouldn't POST, and it turns out the main SSD was fried.
Ever since then I've had all this redundant storage/backup, even to an off-site location
I lost some progress on my mods that I hadn't pushed to the GitHub repo
crystal wren
If you don't have the server/NAS on a UPS, it might be worth looking at that first maybe...
Which is annoying, because UPS isn't a cool upgrade... main reason I'm not using one yet. 
marble jewel
The first thing I did after my data loss is buy 4 UPS for each of my computers
Although I have procrastinated actually setting them up correctly. So in power outages they go on battery backup, but I don't have any policies setup to do things like automatically suspend.
crystal wren
That's 4 in series for each PC, obviously.
marble jewel
I have 2 PCs each in 2 different rooms and they all have their own dedicated UPS
crystal wren
This is making me want to get my doorbell connected via ethernet...
I went for the lazy quick option at first.
safe dragon
I live in an apartment complex and we don't even have a camera to show who's at the door
old post world war 2 housing crisis construction be like that I guess...
no camera intercoms back then
I'm not a big fan of smart applications/IoT stuff though
if it stays within my local network it's cool
thin estuary
today at work i had my VPN connection reconnecting every 20 seconds
can't do anything like that
cinder karma
Pretend to work mod instead?
Why am I the git person ahhhhhh
Shockah please save my soul
regal ingot
at least it's not Perforce?
cinder karma
What is perforce
marble jewel
At my apartment, I installed a video doorbell that replaced the peep hole, it worked pretty well and it was a reversible upgrade.
When I left I just had to reinstall the original peep hole.
thin estuary
i think Casey said yesterday that her work involves Perforce? whatever that is
regal ingot
What is perforce
never used it, myself. But I've never heard anyone say anything good about it.
proven zealot
not sure where to ask this but i wanna start coding (and making mods) but i hvae no clue where to start, so if i could get some advice that would be appreciated
marble jewel
honestly, there are a lot of intro to programming things you can do. I can't vouch for any one, but there are enough similarities between different programming langauges that you would benefit from learning the basics
Like just the fundamentals, get those down
I think I first learned coding by issuing commands to a virtual "turtle" to draw things on a screen
regal ingot
hmm... can't remember if my first programming was logo or the BASIC baked in to the apple II roms.
marble jewel
If I approached learning programming today, I'd probably find a YouTube series or something I could follow along with, but that's just because certain videos present themselves in a way that works well for me
regal ingot
I think I have a different idea about what the "fundamentals" are... because I'd definitely recommend different approaches for learning "how to write some code" vs. understanding how programming (and programming languages) works.
proven zealot
do i start with any language or C# since thats what SMAPI uses
marble jewel
My basics are:
- you have instructions that do things
- you have conditionals
- you have loops
- you have methods
Like finding the manual way to do things, then finding ways to reuse code or automate things.
cinder karma
I would say find a simple project and do it
proven zealot
im def gonna try and watch videos to learn the basics of coding period
marble jewel
I personally think C# is a great language, but maybe has some complexity you'd have to learn that are specific to C#. A lot of people start with Python.
regal ingot
Python will teach you bad habits 😛
cinder karma
Tbh Matt python can be oddly annoying
Man In Black I had to deal with python packaging today too
marble jewel
Bad and good habits, it forces you to format in a way that is optional to other languages, but is probably a good practice regardless
cinder karma
It was not a good day
regal ingot
ouch
marble jewel
And it's fine for learning while you're sticking to the standard library
cinder karma
Don't you enjoy importing sys and mangling sys.path to get your ducking imports to work
proven zealot
gonna find some videos on C# and Python brb :)
marble jewel
Shoot I mostly learned programming from Javascript, and that's even worse
proven zealot
thanks yall
marble jewel
Of course I'm biased towards Python and C# because that's what I use every day at work
regal ingot
I spent hours today trying to figure out ways to not re-fetch GB+ git repos when a project has the same repo as two different submodules, and that submodule itself has a submodule (that's also one of the parent repo's submodules).
safe dragon
I started with C# and it was fine
did mean I didn't learn to use a terminal till a fair bit later
since visual studio just has a start button
feels silly now but it felt quite intimidating at the time when I had to use the terminal to run a program later for a different course
safe dragon
I'm very biased against LabView Matt
never heard of that
huh... it's a visual programming language
merge conflicts on auto-generated files is always an absolute nightmare
but at least normally you have a normal file too just regenerate the file
winforms I guess being an exception from what I've used. We've had some incredibly strange bug caused by a merge error on a form before that we didn't figure out for like a week
marble jewel
Yeah, I think it's nice learning in a CLI where you can immediately see the response to your code
regal ingot
a CLI where you compile and run things by hand, or a REPL?
(that's Read Eval Print Loop, which is what it was called before these upstart languages started calling it a "console" )
cinder karma
I have a love hate relationship with jypter
marble jewel
One of my earlier experiences was playing around in the Javascript console, and the instant feedback loop helped me iterate on my understanding more quickly than when I went with a compiled language route
regal ingot
REPLs are great.
leaden marsh
I have a love hate relationship with jypter
i both love jupyter for making easy reports, but hate it because it's been finicky for me in almost everything i've done with it
pliant snow
I'm just gonna post this link in the hope that someone well versed in CSS will feel so disgusted by it they'll come and fix it https://stardew.chat/commands.php
crystal wren
...is the sole use of the title field just a single test command?
pliant snow
yes, but only because none of the commands have them at present
I really don't know how to make this less horrible
I thought about a more grid-like approach, but that might be confusing
safe dragon
I'm just gonna post this link in the hope that someone well versed in CSS will f...
dear God
pliant snow
I didn't used to be quite this bad, but now theres two new columns
safe dragon
if I had had time this weekend I would've liked to completely redesign this page
pliant snow
don't worry, it's not going anywhere
cinder karma
Mobile
safe dragon
even as a fairly simple change simply listing the commands underneath each other and using the <details> and <summary> HTML tags might be preferable
cinder karma
I don't know about you but this exactly how I program
safe dragon
very creative
cinder karma
When we say bare metal we mean
pliant snow
even as a fairly simple change simply listing the commands underneath each other...
📝
Actually that's not bad
most of my HTML prowess comes from 1999
safe dragon
I'm sure
the detail and summary tags do a thing people seem to immediately assume requires Javascript
tbh that's generally a web issue
people just use divs for everything and use Javascript to do everything else
crystal wren
Those tags will... probably entirely solve this issue. Huh!
pliant snow
Those tags will... probably entirely solve this issue. Huh!
Just in time for me to create fresh, exciting new ones
crystal wren
I'd want user-select: none; on the "button" part of it, though.
safe dragon
always feels strange when you can select the text in something you click
crystal wren
^
safe dragon
(what is `user-select: none;` )
we'll get you up to speed on the last 25 years of web development
user-select has only been a thing for 20 years now
cinder karma
So what has happened?
I hear iframes are bad now
What about centering images in tables?
safe dragon
not necessarily bad but technically a security risk I believe
centering with tables is just more buggy than options we have now
I guess more modern development would be container queries
pliant snow
here i am with my html grids and php
safe dragon
grid is relatively new in my mind...
unless you just mean table
grid and flex remain incredibly popular for designing the layout of a webpage
pliant snow
oh no, yeah a table
safe dragon
now what's really new is subgrid
I don't understand how to use subgrid either
I'm not a front-end engineer
I only touch frontend when I need to...
pliant snow
yeah, get it straight
crystal wren
Hey, we're #lost-rustaceans in here. We only do Rust.
crystal wren
I'm actually quite surprised that Atra hadn't seen https://arewegameyet.rs/ yet when I sent it!
crystal wren
You look like you could be one, but... fair point.
safe dragon
this is what I used for one of my first rust game things
😌
nowadays rust game development is an actual legitimate thing you can do
pliant snow
It's annoying that I can't embed any image hosted on discord
minor stirrup
Hey, we're #lost-rustaceans in here. We only do Rust.
rust mentioned i'm here
speaking of, y'all seen this project? https://github.com/FractalFir/rustc_codegen_clr
this dude is writing a codegen backend that takes the rustc MIR and converts it into CLR
crystal wren
rust mentioned i'm here
It's in the channel description for a reason!
minor stirrup
given the average stardew player and the average rust programmer, yeah, checks out 😛
I've been playing around with it and theoretically, you could be able to harmony patch the emitted CLR directly into stardew...
cinder karma
crystal wren
No, it seems to be the same for me... it fixes itself once one of the elements are opened up, weirdly?
Ah, I think it's just trying to centre things and changes the width dynamically. I think a set width would probably help?
safe dragon
it's being quite funky on mobile at least
crystal wren
Oh yeah no, wow.
safe dragon
improvement over the table though
crystal wren
It really was just cached and a normal refresh definitely didn't do it!
pliant snow
it looks fine on every device im looking at
yeah, if you had it open before on that same device, then it really wants to load the old CSS
safe dragon
it has become normal on my phone now
crystal wren
I do love the commands that are nothing but dead Discord CDN image links now.
crystal wren
That could be good for aliases!
pliant snow
oh i was just gonna change the color
pliant snow
although thats a good point, the aliases need to have their own entry
safe dragon
tooltips can just be done by giving it a title tag
crystal wren
Oh no, the user-select: none; is on everything and not just the clickable bit!
pliant snow
oh youre right, I set it on the details, but the summary is a child
safe dragon
monkey's paw
pliant snow
whats the default
safe dragon
auto, which is why it's inheriting
oh apparently chromium breaks the spec and user-select is an inheritable tag
you probably want text for the summary
pliant snow
as opposed to..
oh maybe i do populate with aliases
I used a left outer join, i was feeling very fancy that day
safe dragon
you don't do stuff with databases very often huh
pliant snow
sure I do, I call the API functions the backend developers set up
If I didn't have these bots, I don't think I would've used SQL since college
safe dragon
damn
I'm looking at sql code as we talk here...
there's 14 left joins in this procedure
pliant snow
is that because its a useful tool or because your tables are a nightmare
safe dragon
yes
most of them are honestly unnecessary but I guess the procedure is 15 years old
we're phasing it out after I'm done with this item
we have much worse procedures though
this one is only 5000 lines
sonic mirage
details is a block element. You can give it margin-bottom: 0.25rem and then pitch all the <br> between each <details> to shrink up the list length
And if you want the padding of the details element to be what controls whitespace inside of it better, you can do this:
details > summary + * {
margin-top: 0;
}
details > :last-child {
margin-bottom: 0;
}
To kill any child elements' margin that double up against the padding you set
Have the images always been broken on the commands site? They seem to still work in Discord. Did Discord kill hotlinking, maybe? I feel like I saw something about that at some point
mystic kindle
sonic mirage
The page would be easier to read if text didn't go alllll the way across it, too.
Something like
main {
max-width: 1200px;
margin-left: auto;
margin-right: auto;
}
would make it better, imo
Is there a repo for this site
Nvm found it, maybe I'll submit a PR
sonic mirage
Well I should get back to work rather than chatting lol
These 500 views in Access 2003 aren't going to port themselves to SQL Server 2022
sonic mirage
Well I've been on other projects the last few weeks, but I'm just now getting time to come in at the tail end of the porting and I'm having to clean up the status of everything to be updated and finish all the partially-done ones where the other dev(s) skipped it cause they couldn't get past certain errors
Today is bookkeeping and problem solving time
Almost makes me miss having to deal with building a custom POS interface on top of Drupal.. almost
safe dragon
poor drupal
sonic mirage
Do not pity Drupal. It's literally the worst. That whole ecosystem needs to die in a fire. I've never worked in a more inconsistent framework. Not to mention the whole community it built on having incomprehensible and non-existent documentation to require companies to hire "Drupal professionals" that know all the hot garbage quirks of it all.
pliant snow
Have the images always been broken on the commands site? They seem to still work...
Yeah... Some do work, so I don't want to just leave them as URLs tho
I would say we should host them elsewhere, but I think some used to be imgur links that also died at some point
sonic mirage
Maybe you could check if they contain 'cdn.discordapp.com/attachments' and just write some placeholder text instead, like "< Discord image shows here >"
pliant snow
That's not bad
modest maple
hey git users, what is it called when you forget to commit for awhile and then have a bunch of different stuff in the same commit that should really be separated out ...
I thought it was a dirty commit, but evidently that's something different
cinder karma
git commit -m "fuck if I know"
marble jewel
hey git users, what is it called when you forget to commit for awhile and then h...
I've been very bad/lazy with my commit messages. I'm playing with the Jetbrains AI tool, and just taking whatever it says.
It's not terrible:
Improve code structure and fix integration bugs
This update primarily involves refactoring the project's codebase with better structure and semantics. This includes renaming and moving some functionality to represent its purpose more clearly. Additionally, this commit addresses issues with API integration with other mods and resolves various minor bugs found in the code logic. Notably, some functions' behaviors were modified to prevent abrupt code execution, improving the program's robustness.
cinder karma
Sure beats "I hope I got all the views merged correctly"
marble jewel
Like, it's pretty darn good at knowing my intent:
Update color selection logic in ModPatches and ModEntry
The color selection indices in ModPatches and ModEntry have been revised. This includes adjusting the color selection from the DiscreteColorPicker, as well as fixing an off-by-one error in the selection logic in ModEntry. The changes help to improve the color selection and arrangement process.
Not perfect, but good enough for me to not bother writing my own or rewriting theirs
marble jewel
It's certainly a lot more than I would write by hand, but I'm pushing one button instead of typing anything
cinder karma
I also sometimes just commit 🤷
marble jewel
Like, who knows? I sure as heck don't.
marble jewel
The git messages at my work are even more lazy, they're just the JIRA ticket number
git commit -m "ABC-123"
"Professional"
safe dragon
I don't really pay attention to my commits because all the commits are squashed into 1 after the PR is merged
a lot of my colleagues are even lazier than I am and their commit messages are just .
we also don't generally work on the same branch like ever
devout vault
There's one modder that just commits etc for everything
I usually try to do good commit messages, lately I've been slacking though
pliant snow
I don't really pay attention to my commits because all the commits are squashed ...
I know that's how github does it, but that's wild to me. Any changes we need to make we amend the commit in review, so all of our commits are always detailed
crystal wren
Well thanks, that's very helpful Google.
modest maple
I had un-commited changes (to the same file!) that fixed an old feature, started adding a new feature, and changed how some underlying stuff worked. And I had just realized I wanted the new feature to be it's own mod instead. 😦
so now I have to separate all that stuff out. I need a commit on save setting or something
pliant snow
you can stage in chunks if that helps
modest maple
Yep, that's what I'm doing. it's just taking awhile. and it doesn't help that my indoor cat has escaped on an outdoor adventure and hasn't come back.
sonic mirage
If I end up with unrelated stuff I just only stage and commit the related stuff at once. Much easier with something like Sublime Merge
My commit messages are arguably more verbose than they need to be, but man do I appreciate it when I'm trying to search commit history
I also don't squash on merge though, because it just makes progress of changes harder to follow. What's the point in breaking things into logical commit chunks if you're just going to smash it all together later.
Of course, these are just habits from having to work on 3 to 10 different codebases a week, across a variety of frameworks/languages/etc. If we only had one codebase to remember I'd be less inclined to detail everything because it would be possible to rememeber most of it
cinder karma
I'm gonna just say I'm gonna regret this bit madness in the future
safe dragon
that's always the case for bit manipulation stuff
bit manipulation stuff is definitely one of those cases where documentation is vital to ever decipher the arcane wizardry at play again later
supple ether
yeaaah
especially when you get into bitmasks that aren't also bitfields
magic numbers! magic numbers everywhere!
leaden marsh
i love bit manipulation magic
supple ether
it's fun but it's also godawful to maintain
cinder karma
yeah
supple ether
I once wrote a class designed to store a packed array of arbitrary bit width values (unsigned) and iit had so much bit math in it that it was completely unparseable
(that is, the bit width was uniform but could vary by instance)
safe dragon
my philosophy is to never use bit math unless there's really no other choice
I'd rather waste a few bytes of memory and take a performance hit in most cases
gotta be some insane hot path
pliant snow
what if i told you governor used bit math
cinder karma
so I was already in bit-land anyways
(as in, needed to supply a specific bit pattern to an fpga)
so what's a bit more bitty
safe dragon
what if i told you governor used bit math
what for
pliant snow
custom commands have flags stored as a bitfield
safe dragon
at least they're just flags
depending on the language you might not even have to do bit math
and the language just supports bit flag enums or whatever
such as C#
cinder karma
oh yeah I'm in python XD
bronze idol
re: design-first, i have two whiteboards behind me, and a drawing tablet, and draw io and i use them all
i did not go to school for anything so i didn't know there was a better way than what i used to do
which is just.. stream of consciousness code
it's hard to believe i survived
stoic pine
Making GUI tools for arbitrary JSON sucks. Especially once they start getting tricky with combining the property names with operations in the name
bronze idol
i only recently learned how to do uml diagrams so i'm like.. not strong
gray moth
I mean you usually don't need them and you can look them up when you do
bronze idol
it's not about needing them, weirdly.
it's about visualizing design elements and seeing red flags
it's just a tool, is all it is
i wouldn't even suggest people refer back to them
safe dragon
i do it all in my head and pray
bronze idol
felt, seen
gray moth
yeah same. usually when I start programming I already have a reasonable idea how to solve the issue. And from then it's just cutting up your problem into smaller chunks and doing them in a way that makes sense.
Sorta like minesweeper
bronze idol
but uml is the polar end of officious, i swear by workflowing stuff. it sounds like tedious busywork but i've been helped by it many times
it does help me see things i'd otherwise miss
not trying to espouse this as some universal truth. nasir gebelli didn't seem to need any uml lol
straight from the dome
stoic pine
{
"id": "ambition",
"slots$listedit": {
"0$dictedit": { "forbidden$add": { "loyal": 1 } }
}
}
I mean look at this. How am I supposed to parse this 😂
Cultist Simulator modding is as cursed as the gameplay
bronze idol
```json
{
"id": "ambition",
"slots$listedit": {
"0$dictedit": { "forbidd...
honestly question for question, can you promise me that $ is a sacred token that indicates an action
stoic pine
honestly question for question, can you promise me that $ is a sacred token that...
Yes.
bronze idol
it could be worse then
stoic pine
ik, I had some support for the basic operations like $add
But it made the GUI hideous
And it got worse and worse as the more complex ones got added
When I came back after a year or two I decided to try making a new tool and went with a TreeNodeView to try and visualize the objects
safe dragon
this is the point where I'd suggest either a different structure for the json or to introduce a different configuration syntax that isn't json...
stoic pine
this is the point where I'd suggest either a different structure for the json or...
lol I wish so hard
But it's kind of cemented with all the mods now
And with a second game using the same engine and syntax.....
safe dragon
"we're stuck with this now"
stoic pine
ye
safe dragon
stoic pine
It basically started out as community mod support that got partially merged
Hacky community mod support
And that game was his first time as the programmer
He was the writer for the previous games he worked on
So there's a mix of tech debt and knowledge debt
stoic pine
He did produce a good product and had other programmers up until The Incident
safe dragon
I'd have the opposite problem and spend so much time trying to design the perfect system for everything that nothing actually gets done
the incident... drama
stoic pine
the incident... drama
Smear campaign by the company he used to work for by the looks of it
safe dragon
fun
stoic pine
They released "proof" that he had inappropriate sexual relations with a report and then refused any independent investigation even though he'd foot half the bill
bronze idol
imma keep it a buck with you, he definitely had inappropriate relations with that json schema because he fucked that shit up
that is not the sane way to do anything
that is deep fried dogshit
sorry not sorry
there has got to be a less insane way to do whatever the hell that is
when you're splicing instructional stuff into js object names i feel like you've signed some sort of dark pact where a decent chunk of the faustian bargain is promising not to make sense to anyone but you.
and it kind of does make sense, but also why
y'know, just like.. use programming. instead of mashing it into json awkwardly.
this has a sort of "all i had was a hammer" vibe
</rant>
bronze idol
And that game was his first time as the programmer
there it is. I missed that important bit
stoic pine
when you're splicing instructional stuff into js object names i feel like you've...
that'd be surprisingly on brand
So much of the game is figuring out wtf the descriptions are talking about
bronze idol
I was probably a little overly judgmental on it. I know i said earlier it could be worse, but when i came back to this i realized.. i'm not sure that's a good heuristic for anything
stoic pine
lol no you're not wrong
Even the game's underlying structure is esoteric
Spheres and Angels type shit
stoic pine
the equivalent of Contexts and Workers
Spheres are like nested inventories where cards can be laid out
Everything from an action token that you put cards into the slots of to the table itself
Angels are modifiers for slots that do stuff like vacuum in cards or destroy them after the action token's "recipe" begins
bronze idol
okay. that doesn't sound like it would have you committed for saying in front of a government official but it rates like a 3/5 unhinged
stoic pine
lol
bronze idol
words of the deranged
however, i'm sure there are weirder ideas for a game
my contention is when someone who isn't a coding vet steps up to the plate and does something, they do usually produce more debt and unmaintainable broken windows than gems, that's pretty normal
you have to wade through that peak dunning kruger shit to get to the part where you do things right, unless you're perfect, and i don't know anyone who is
walk to run shit
stoic pine
I mean, my code compiled the first time for my new mod today :P
Didn't work but that's a different story
bronze idol
what i'm surprised by is that you kept it lol
stoic pine
lmao
bronze idol
because that system sounds unmaintainable and kind of like a long term resource drain
but if you know it, and it's not slowing you down pound for pound, i can't judge
stoic pine
Oh the mod got rewritten 3 times
bronze idol
it really could be worse, but that doesn't always justify a sunk cost
stoic pine
No harmony patches now
And Wren showed me how to not need Content Patcher for it either
:3
I just wish every project of mine was so small I could do that for them
bronze idol
oh there's nothing deranged there, i was just talking about that $goatsacrifice
stoic pine
lol oh
bronze idol
my bad, gosh, sounds like i'm trashing what you did today, no no
stoic pine
got confused there when you started using you lol
bronze idol
was just commiserating about that thing earlier
stoic pine
that system wasn't mine
bronze idol
i know, but didn't you say you kept having to do stuff with it?
stoic pine
yeah
bronze idol
because it was like grandfathered legacy engine stuff
stoic pine
had to parse it for a GUI tool
bronze idol
that's what i mean, grandfathered or not, that sounds forsaken
well if you can tolerate that, i suppose you can suffer anything lol
stoic pine
I figured out a shitty way to color code ListBox entries and use the color variables in order to figure out which accursed $operation to save it as
Otherwise I'd have needed more screen space than I had available to cram everything into one gui
stoic pine
well if you can tolerate that, i suppose you can suffer anything lol
I couldn't tolerate it for very long and both projects I started trying to work with it are dead
:3
bronze idol
color code. you mean like hiding semantic meaning in composites of color codes?
stoic pine
They have cool names tho
stoic pine
color code. you mean like hiding semantic meaning in composites of color codes?
one sec lemme see if I have an old ss
I mean like this
The green meant it was an $add
bronze idol
oh okay, more straightforward than what i was thinking you meant
stoic pine
Serializing it was the annoying part
bronze idol
you know your UI isn't bad, i feel like this data structure is cursed internally but from this perspective it seems less cursed
stoic pine
I sketched all the UI stuff in a notebook before trying to implement any of it
Otherwise it would've been atrocious
bronze idol
for a dev facing tool, you don't have to ask for much
stoic pine
ye
It was built with me specifically in mind, but other people found it useful while the scene was still maturing
lol found a better example of the color coding
The colors corresponded to the buttons below the textbox in order
Insert being put in the main property and everything else being cursed
man I really need to stop using dumb shit when filling stuff in for testing
asdf was most normal filler text
bronze idol
what's wrong with asdf spam, it's the lorem ipsum of our time
simple dragon
(moving here) @deep drum I don't even know that from working tech. They would constantly crash out to the '98 BSOD when I worked there as a cashier in 2020
deep drum
well they have 14 years to figure that shit out ig
simple dragon
I work in STEM now and the amount of scientific and academic institutions that rely on woefully antiquated hardware and software is truly astounding. I foresee a LOT of panic and chaos in the leadup to the 32bit death.
See also: hospitals
Some major, well known institutions just stopped demanding digital data records come in the form of CDs (and FLOPPIES!!!!!) in the past few years
deep drum
Thankfully a lot of the medical equipment my company has been working on is designed with aarch64 processors, so at least we're moving away from it quickly
simple dragon
My work just finally replaced a piece of equipment with a CRT screen built in that ran a modified version of windows god-knows-what
Lab equipment from the 80s chugs along dutifully across the world
deep drum
lab equipment and mechanical manufacturing
I've had friends have to debug visual BASIC scripts in industry
simple dragon
At a certain point they become one and the same
I encounter PERL sometimes, against my will
I don't even try though, I'm not getting payed PERL money
deep drum
TRUE lmao
simple dragon
I diagnose this spectrophotemer with "above my pay grade"
deep drum
or Fortran money tbh, I can't believe how prevalent that language still is
simple dragon
"Oh, why is this equipment called the (redacted)83? that's because it's from '83, good luck, fuck you"
Getting that thing to talk to windows 10 was inhumane
pliant snow
they dont call them POS devices for nothing
simple dragon
I became unwilling minimum wage tech support at that job in the interest in keeping the dang store open
safe dragon
not that old but we've been arguing with some of our clients that their windows xp cash registers really need to be upgraded
they refuse
we'd literally do it for free
deep drum
Boomer behavior
simple dragon
No that behaviour runs top to bottom. "It's working fine!"
"Why do they keep CHANGING things?"
safe dragon
can't see any issue with having a device that doesn't get any security updates right there in your store for everyone to go past
simple dragon
Watching 64 bit exclusive scientific equipment hit the market is vindicating, because I'm the one dealing with the fallout of the antiquated stuff, but also terrifying, because I'm the one dealing with the fallout from the antiquated stuff
Exposed USB ports on self checkout machines? Who's she?
I spot those at the grocery store sometimes and feel glad that it's not my problem
safe dragon
our self checkouts don't have exposed usb ports at the very least
pliant snow
im sure they arent still using 32-bit time and im sure that wont be a problem
deep drum
I'm sure nothing bad will happen
simple dragon
-My lab mates, moments before that time I had to pull the fire alarm
safe dragon
they've got till like... 2036? to switch to 64 bit time representations I'm sure it's fine
unless they of course ever deal with dates that lie in the future
simple dragon
I find todo notes far older than 12 years all the time
It'll be an interesting year
deep drum
Unix epoch 2 electric boogaloo
simple dragon
Anyway have you guys heard of TOUCHSCREEN CRTs??? I encountered one for the first time recently and was FLABBERGASTED
pliant snow
im sure they'll take off
simple dragon
It had a stylus touch pen, was from the.. 90s? I think?
I, a known gen z baby, had never considered such a thing
It was for a cleanroom, where having a difficult to clean surface like a chonky 90s keyboard isn't ideal. Input was exclusively touch.
It was in storage, we found it while deep cleaning and were DELIGHTED that it worked
No clue what it used to do. We just tagged it as working and put it back.
I love encountering old equipment with chonky buttons that goes CLUNK 
safe dragon
love some nice buttons
simple dragon
click clack click clack CLUNK
brrrrrr CLUNK
That's the good shit. Technology peaked there.
I'd take "Leave the lid open or it will overheat and catch fire" written in faded sharpie before I was born over smooth white plastic and finicky touchscreens and no-repairs-or-you-void-your-warranty any day
All the best lab equipment looks like a gigantic abused SNES
cinder karma
Click!
simple dragon
One of my favourite machines at work has a sticky note on it that says "it's supposed to sound like that, don't panic"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEZEVy6aIww
I think I found a cousin of that touchscreen I mentioned above! (I know this has moved off programming and into hardware so I'll be off now)
cinder karma
Click
sand frost
if I have <LangVersion>latest</LangVersion> but C# seems upset what do
context: it hates brackets
[] is not acceptable
<LangVersion>latest</LangVersion> is in common.targets
int[] arr = [ 1, 2, 3 ]; is erroring
cinder karma
You need to install net 8 sdk
safe dragon
you've committed a crime I'm afraid
sand frost
You need to install net 8 sdk
ok will do 
supple ether
`int[] arr = [ 1, 2, 3 ];` is erroring
shouldn't hose be curly braces
sand frost
uhhh idk
safe dragon
nope
sand frost
i'm just going w the code atra wrote 
which uhhh might be a lil more modern than my usual
safe dragon
the syntax is correct for the most recent version of C#(and nothing else)
sand frost
yeah, casey borrowed from atra who used langversion latest
maybe I should write a little guide to editing spacecore stuffs
safe dragon
they didn't "change it" they added a syntax that is agnostic to the type of enumerable it's making. The new[] {} was specifically for arrays
sand frost
bringing me into the modern age 
supple ether
aaaaah so you could do var data = [0, 1, 2];?
that is a lot better
I always thought of the curly braces as being the same as initializer syntax, same way it works for dictionaries and setting fields/properties on more conventional types
thin estuary
also [] instead of Enumerable.Empty<Whatever>()
safe dragon
also `[]` instead of `Enumerable.Empty<Whatever>()`
I believe it's also smart enough to use the allocation free Array.Empty<T> when appropriate
supple ether
(but it was annoying to constantly have to do new[], especially when it struggles to identify type)
like in the past I remember that if you did string[] = new[] {} it would be like "I don't know what type this array is :("
safe dragon
I've appreciated the change. It had allowed me to clean up a bunch of stuff, especially helped get rid of a bunch of ReadOnlyCollection ones we had in our backend
sand frost
let us see if visual studio will accept my sacrifice of installing updates
safe dragon
new string[] {}
tbh the nicest thing in the latest C# for me has been primary constructors
in a lot of dependency injection heavy services it cleaned them up significantly
I like that they've really tried to turn down the verbosity C# used to be known for
sand frost
so I installed .NET 8.0
and VS is still mad
I also updated VS
going to try all the "turning it off and on again" type actions next
Is there any way to figure out what langversion VS is using or to forcibly make it use common.targets or...something
I've deleted the obj folders to try to make it forcibly clean itself, installed .NET 8.0, and restarted VS about 5 times
checked that I have .NET 8.0 sdk via command line (I do)
sand frost
yes
devout vault
Hmm
sand frost
all of the restarts were after .NET 8.0
devout vault
When you right click a project and go to properties, how high does the target framework go
sand frost
VS claims up to C# 11
devout vault
ie. SpaceCore
cinder karma
Huhhh
sand frost
oh god...vs thinks I don't have .NET 8.0 installed
but I doooooo vs whyyyy
I hate microsoft....
ivory shadow
Are you using an older vs that doesn't support it?
sand frost
Are you using an older vs that doesn't support it?
I'm on MacOS VS
Idk if they just didn't support .NET 8.0 on it, but I did update VS today too
ivory shadow
Ah. I have zero experience with macOS VS.
sand frost
ok I did find...something
devout vault
?
sand frost
EOL is Aug 2024 for VS on Macos
yeah that's the thing I found
I might actually cry when I have to learn a whole new build process
but that's a future me problem if I can help it
cinder karma
I had to declare a globals.json and stick it at the root of my repo btw
No clue why
ivory shadow
I haven't checked lately but I assume vscode's .net experience still leaves a lot to be desired.
cinder karma
That's the file I listed
sand frost
It finally built!!!!!
sand frost
I haven't checked lately but I assume vscode's .net experience still leaves a lo...
yeah...that's my fear
and like, I'm a grown-up, I could install windows, but I hate windows
I might end up using Rider, I just need to figure out if they will give me free Rider
Since my commit history is long but sporadic
ivory shadow
I've heard that jetbrains is pretty generous about open source licenses. Never managed to get myself using Rider though, even though I've got it through work. It's just... slightly different and I already have vs
sand frost
ok now that i've spent an hour getting the mod to build, time to actually make edits...
I work in .edu space, so also Rider might be free for that reason? idk haven't looked
I do feel like for the stardew community, I want there to be decent resources/tutorials to at least get stuff to build on MacOS, which probably means learning how myself
I'm just angry at Microsoft for doing this because it feels anticompetitive, and is likely going to mean frustrating work for me
Even though I could take the easier way out and use Rider personally, that's not a possibility for all modmakers (esp new ones)
like, I do vaguely have some idea that developing for MacOS is annoying, which is probably a separate anticompetitive thing, but cmon Microsoft...if you want to advertise a cross-platform framework, make it actually cross-platform, you cowards
ivory shadow
Now I kinda want to just try vscode for a bit. I am super familiar with it thanks to my day job where I write far too much JavaScript.
sand frost
I have used vscode a tiny tiny bit to run python on windows
sand frost
I thought it was .. fine, but running python code is stupidly easy in general
ivory shadow
(That emoji never fails to appear if I mention JavaScript...)
cinder karma
Tbh I could probably do vscode
sand frost
i prefer to do python from command line but I can't stand the windows command line..."system"
cinder karma
Khloe I have been writing LabVIEW lately
sand frost
why are there three terminals? i will never know
cinder karma
So. On the order of languages
sand frost
Khloe I have been writing LabVIEW lately
that's the real scary stuff tbh
I avoided writing labview..for now but I dread the day
I might be able to escape it tho
ivory shadow
why are there three terminals? i will never know
Look at this person who doesn't know how to use the three seashells terminals...
sand frost
jesus fuck "merge conflicts in labview" is a phrase to fear
supple ether
i prefer to do python from command line but I can't stand the windows command li...
windows batch sucks ass so hard I s2g
cinder karma
If I ever need to learn the difference between zsh bash and fish someone just shoot me please
sand frost
I don't understand why there's like 12 ways to install python on windows and they each have slightly different syntax implications
(i exaggerate but it's at least 2 and that's at least 1 too many!!!!)
supple ether
no its easy you just pip install python /s
ivory shadow
I try to avoid python ever since the mess that was py3 at launch.
supple ether
I think python is at least on winget now
supple ether
took microsoft fucking long enough to add a package manager jfc
cinder karma
Lol it doesn't work right
thin estuary
atra has been cursing at that package manager for a while now
ivory shadow
winget install chocolatey
sand frost
dunno what a winget is but I keep trying to make people use conda whenever things go south
cinder karma
I want my package manager to pop up a Windom asking me to uninstall
Then take a survey
Then install.
supple ether
dunno what a winget is but I keep trying to make people use conda whenever thing...
winget is microsoft's one and only package manager for windows
safe dragon
If I ever need to learn the difference between zsh bash and fish someone just sh...
in my mind I've basically just categorized bash and zsh to be the same thing and fish to be the annoying one that doesn't always work with the scripts that work for the other two. (I don't ever use any of these 3 beyond just doing regular terminal stuff on Linux)
supple ether
windows batch just bothers me bc there's SO many oddities it has. like when quotes are ignored and when they're not, and the fact that ^ is the escpae character instead of \ because windows insists on using \s for file paths even though it also supports /s.... for most things
cinder karma
Oh my God yessss
supple ether
also you cant do string interpolation file manipulation as far as I can tell which is like my number one favorite bash feature
(or, well, you can technically, but it involves Horrible Loop Spaghetti which is its own thing)
safe dragon
maybe someday I'll actually learn any of these scripts
supple ether
windows batch is the reason I use python
safe dragon
despite regularly trying out new programming languages I've never cared for scripting ones
supple ether
I usually just use it to automate tedious file ops or comand sequences
safe dragon
how go you deal when pre-written scripts in stuff like lutris break because something isn't valid fish syntax
do you just rewrite them...
pliant snow
I didnt remove bash, they can still run
pliant snow
I honestly havent used lutris in years
safe dragon
I liked how easy fish was to configure and be nice to use but it broke on me a few times and I don't actually know the syntax of... well any of em let alone fish
devout vault
I was wondering why Lutris sounded so familiar - I realized I used it to install Viva Pinata on my steamdeck
safe dragon
lmao
pliant snow
...is there a pc port of viva pinata
devout vault
Yep
cinder karma
Viva what
safe dragon
for runescape
lethal walrus
...is there a pc port of viva pinata
cinder karma
I now have more questions
ivory shadow
So because I hate myself I opened vscode and searched for csharp in the extensions marketplace and the second one listed is
safe dragon
viva pinata had pretty grass rendering that's all I remember
devout vault
Yeah
pliant snow
what if i told you it had a cartoon show to go with it
cinder karma
Oh yeah I couldn't get a good autoformatter for c# on vscode
safe dragon
what if i told you it had a cartoon show to go with it
I do know that
devout vault
I now have more questions
Does this help
cinder karma
Even more questions
lethal walrus
So because I hate myself I opened vscode and searched for csharp in the extensio...
in a way that almost makes sense, if you're sending data back and forth
devout vault
Oh and there are evil pinatas who come to make your pinatas sick
safe dragon
having used C# in vscode and neovim with... whatever the LSP is called... omnicron or whatever it is... It practically freezes my pc for 15 minutes when I open our legacy backoffice project and is essentially unusable
devout vault
And if your pinatas are sick a masked man comes and smashes them open
cinder karma
:sobs:
safe dragon
having used C# in vscode and neovim with... whatever the LSP is called... omnicr...
it's called omnisharp soz
tbh I just don't use C# outside of work cause it annoys me whenever I'm not on windows
it's better now than it used to be but still definitely feels like a windows based programming language that just happens to have support for other platforms tacked on
cinder karma
Better tha swift on windows tbh
safe dragon
oh I'm sure
I'll just stick with languages that at the very least work smoothly on Linux cause then I'm happy
ivory shadow
Incredible debug console here, vscode
pliant snow
my vscode will occasionally put spaces between every letter in my terminal. I have no idea why it does it or what causes it, but I have to make a new one when it does
ivory shadow
Sorry, I mean, i?n?c?r?e?d?i?b?l?e? ?d?e?b?u?g? ?c?o?n?s?o?l?e
Also, breakpoints don't work, so that's fun too.
safe dragon
I've never gotten breakpoints to actually properly work in vscode
regardless of language
if lucky they work as long as you only have single-threaded code
supple ether
Incredible debug console here, vscode
is it doing something horrible with utf16 or something??
ivory shadow
Oh wait, there's breakpoints working. The default action is to run without debugging. (And the debugging tab just doesn't work lol I pick C# then it tries to run something then complains about projectPath)
cinder karma
Incredible debug console here, vscode
Perfect 10/10
ivory shadow
Perfect 1?0?/?1?0?
cinder karma
Breakpoints work perfect in python
supple ether
I write python like god intended: trial and error /jk
ivory shadow
print statements were good enough for my ancestors they're good enough for me
cinder karma
Hmmm
safe dragon
tbh logging does the trick 95% of the time when I have a bug
ivory shadow
This aesthetically feels way too JavaScript console-y for me. I do not like it.
safe dragon
poor vscode
ivory shadow
It completely refuses to step into external code, also. Not a fan of that.
I'm sure it can be configured, though.
pliant snow
ive def seen it step into standard lib stuff before
ivory shadow
Yeah, that part was easy enough to find. Still having trouble figuring out the ???s in the console though.
supple ether
those question marks REAK of something trying to read utf-16 as utf-8
not sure how you'd fix it though
ivory shadow
Yeah, exactly. I've tried telling it to use an external console but it's just... not?
When I try using a custom config in launch.json, it complains that my csproj has no launchable targets, so that's fun too
I've about hit maximum "this is dumb I should just stop poking it"
devout vault
I hate the operator precedence of ??
Like:
if (Game1.player.get_armorSlot().Value.GetArmorAmount() ?? -1 >= 0)
doesn't work, I have to do
if ((Game1.player.get_armorSlot().Value.GetArmorAmount() ?? -1) >= 0)
I don't think I've ever wanted it the other way around
supple ether
the NUMBER of times I've done if (A ?? B is "thing") and it has complained at me
ivory shadow
While we're talking about nullish things and if statements, I'm still mildly annoyed you can't pass a bool? into an if statement in C#
I want to do if (maybe_null?.SomeBoolPropOrMethod) without needing a ?? false (I understand why it's just annoying to my mostly-JS-and-TS brain.)
And I absolutely agree about the precedence of ??
ivory shadow
Neat, I'll look into that the next time I poke at vscode.
I do think it'd be helpful if there were instructions for doing C# mods in VSCode on the wiki + a starter project with a configured environment. Just not sure I want to go through figuring it out because it seems pretty annoying still.
bronze idol
C# in vscode has been described to me as "serviceable" but also just a bunch of work to establish a fraction of the usefulness of VS
i'm not sure the wiki should see its way to making it seem advisable
imo it's not but i'm guessing it's someone's workflow
i guess i shouldn't discourage it. butter the biscuit any which way
sand frost
the issue is that come august, anyone on macos has very few choices
bronze idol
oh gosh. inconsiderate of me, i'm sorry
sand frost
In light of that, I think it's perfectly reasonable to put it up on the wiki
bronze idol
that puts it in perspective
sand frost
no worries! easy to forget if you don't get a little notice at the top of VS constantly
pliant snow
the issue is that come august, anyone on macos has very few choices
What happens in august
tropic anchor
VS for mac gets discontinued
pliant snow
thats... an odd decision
cinder karma
they want people using VSC
VSC is Fun And Games
I literally don't understand why VSC-For-C# is so bad, I use VSC basically everywhere else lol
pliant snow
from what i understand its not so much the C# support that people don't like, they just dont like VSC over VS in general
safe dragon
it's essentially like going from a dedicated tool with everything built in that you could possibly even think of to a general purpose editor with a bunch of manual configuration and janky tools
is there even a replacement for something like the diagnostics tools in visual studio
though they've been broken for me for like a year now regardless
cinder karma
Yes, Rider
safe dragon
ok yes