📚marathon-lore-discussion

[dreamy hawk]

Encrypted Communique (Hermes) (https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/encrypted-communique) and Introduction to the Unknown (https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/introduction-into-the-unknown) give us the best insights into Durandal at present.

[sage lark]

Everything is written in a way that it has multiple credible interpretations, which while it is fun

[dreamy hawk]

And yeah, he could be lying or misleading. I don’t think so, because a permanently unreliable narrator just destroys the point of having lore, but there could be half truths.

[sage lark]

Also kinda infuriating you are left to steam with info for 2 months

Waiting for new lore to drop

Kinda why i dont chat here anymore cuz the discussions are circular and I personally dont have patience to rediscuss the same stuff over and over with different people for months

[dreamy hawk]

It is also possible that DuranDEA isn’t actually the Durandal in Cryo; maybe OG Durandal got locked up and DuranDEA captured by the Pfhor as planned. I’m less inclined because this then starts to raise questions about the S’pht rebellion and the original triology, but there’s nothing that specifically confirms DuranDEA as being in Cryo beyond circumstance and wider plot convenience.

[dreamy hawk]

This is mostly why I’ve just been 💩 posting. 😂

And for the occasional new theories as they develop, like Fel and his Joy/Joyouse theory.

But yeah, talk about a drought of things to talk about.

[sage lark]

Yeah i wish the lore stuff wouldve been more gradual

Hopefully they got the feedback

[ocean geyser]

What’s with the planet-like thing attached to the marathon ship? Is that an asteroid?

[west viper]

isn't it a moon? Think it was referenced as one in an audio log

[ocean geyser]

I assume it crashed in to it if it’s a moon

I am very interested in the lore and know nothing

But how does a ship crash in to a moon?

Is it a real mystery how the marathon failed in the first place or is this explained somewhere or perhaps in the previous games?

[unreal slate]

It succeeded, it got them to tau ceti

[dreamy hawk]

Deimos.

[unreal slate]

The same hubris that thought cheeseburgers should be drinkable

[dreamy hawk]

They brought it along for resources in transit.

[ocean geyser]

What exactly is Deimos? Is it a big storage device?

[unreal slate]

It's a moon

[ocean geyser]

Or is it like a actual planetoid they strapped

Oh wow

So they strapped a moon to the ship

[dreamy hawk]

It is a common misconception that the materials used to construct the Marathon's hull came solely from Deimos, but largest percentage of the resources used in the ship's early development were actually mined from the main asteroid belt. [Worth mentioning to acknowledge MIDA on Mars? Will MIDA still be around when anyone reads this? Will Mars?]

[ocean geyser]

Kinda badass

I wonder if it had its own gravitational pull

[dreamy hawk]

No it’s tiny.

It’s one of Mars’ moons.

Deimos and Phobos.

[unreal slate]

They purely attached it because they wanted to be badass, no other reason

[dreamy hawk]

I mean technically it’d have a pull, but it’d be insignificant.

Sword in the stone. Or Durandal, broken against a stone.

[ocean geyser]

I actually didn’t know Deimos was a real moon until now. Thought it wasn’t big enough to be considered one

[dreamy hawk]

I still like the OG ramjet design better but this is certainly more symbolic.

[unreal slate]

Straw in the burger, so to speak

[west viper]

is it established who wrote these logs? Genuinely questioning if Mars will exist once they'll be read is pretty interesting

[dreamy hawk]

I think you’re possibly thinking of Pluto and it’s being a planet.

[dreamy hawk]

Mars still exists.

[ocean geyser]

Maybe. I was always a history guy.

[dreamy hawk]

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/uesc-marathon-model

[ocean geyser]

Still that’s really sick. A whole moon just strapped to the marathon is pure aura

[dreamy hawk]

No authorship for this entry afaik.

[ocean geyser]

I really like the visual of this long shape that being the ship with a much more dense and large moon attached. It’s a very cool look

[dreamy hawk]

In the OG games they built the ship into the moon, like a big ramjet.

This is more a stylistic/soft sci-fi design but it definitely has charisma.

I’m trying to find a photo but I’m only finding the new artwork of course.

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Dxg9X9 found it!

[west viper]

"We stole a goddamn Moon and flew it across the galaxy" is such a fun quote to me, like no one realized the absurdity of what they were doing lol

[ocean geyser]

Damn that thing is harsh looking

It’s cool but I have a more personal appreciation for the direction nowadays

[dreamy hawk]

In Marathon you can assume everyone operates on a single philosophy/question: “will this upset Martians or make their lives materially worse?” If “yes,” you do it. If “no,” you don’t even consider it.

What did Martians want to do with Deimos? Make another CRIST to prevent famines. What did the UESC do? Canonically didn’t even let the idea cross their minds before buying up all the “land” and stealing it from underneath the Martians’ boots before slinging it off to another solar system.

[eternal shell]

the big ol space potato

[latent python]

I am still open on the question of whether MIDA was pro-Tau Ceti mission

Martians absolutely thought Deimos was going to be a CRIST. But MIDA? Not sure

[dreamy hawk]

Either they sat on Marathon for a long time doing nothing, or they snuck aboard and used the time to infiltrate. The latter makes them look less inept.

[earnest hatch]

🚀 +🥔 =

[torpid thicket]

I see MIDA as being pro-Tau Ceti mission so long as they could use the colony as a source of new recruits, given that any attempts to control whatever movements emerge in Tau Ceti would probably be an incredible stress on UESC logistics, and arguably any response would come too late to be effective.

Or, alternatively, MIDA could’ve set out to use the Tau Ceti mission as a way to escape from UESC / Corp - controlled Sol in general, rather than as a recruiting ground for the struggle for a free Mars.

[dreamy hawk]

In the inverse this would make them useless for supporting the Sol MIDA organization.

No way to get anything material back home.

[dreamy hawk]

This I think is touched on in some of the codex entries iirc.

[torpid thicket]

Very true 😅

[dreamy hawk]

Not calling themselves MIDA and starting a new movement.

[torpid thicket]

It’s an easy name change, simply rename MIDA (Martian Independent Direct Authority) to MIDA (Marathon Independent Direct Authority). 😄

[magic lark]

okay quick Q, why is the compiler so tough in this game?? didn't basic bobs kill them with basic guns in the old games? Is it powered up by anomaly energy?

[earnest hatch]

This Compiler seems to be a different kind. It possibly is a Compiler that left, was upgraded by the advanced S’pht’kr clan, and then returned to Tau Ceti.

[dreamy hawk]

Or they’ve been doing a lot of lifting in Cryo.

[potent pollen]

noticed in the codex entry for destroyer, the locus personality series is referred to as the "most common" configuration for early runners utilizing the shell on TCIV, but not the only one. other shell codex entries refer to their personality series similarly, triage's aux being a slightly modified "factory standard" or thief's icon being a 100% aftermarket solution and a trend started by independent runners. wonder if that indicates any possibility of customization of personality series

possibly as a form of subclass if they want to limit the number of discrete shells in the game? dunno. at any rate i found it interesting that all the codex entries are pretty clear that the shell personalities we see are not the only ones available for or in use with those shells

[jade wagon]

I'm fascinated to learn more about how the shell personas and runner consciousnesses interact. Where does one end, and the other begin?
Does the runner control the biomata while the persona instructs us (for instance, iirc Blackbird is supposed to be very commanding and decisive)? Or the other way around, where the persona controls the body while the runner instructs/influences them?

Like if the runner is self-centered but the persona is more altruistic (say Triage), how does the shell behave?

[magic lark]

i think it's like there are traces and bits of the personality

they overwrite parts of the runner's consciousness that they're not paying close attention to

filling in the gaps when they're not directly in mind

Thematically it fits with how the corps like to strip out memories and stuff from the runners they own

[dreamy hawk]

IMO, I think of the matrices like spinal reflexes or the subconscious. The conscious is still there to “drive”* but the matrices are responsible for rounding out the edges.

*Interestingly we have studies from stroke patients that show that a lot of your decisions are made by your subconscious mind and then rationalized post hoc by your consciousness. So your brain already decided on the course of action, and is going to do it, you just get to “decide” as to the “why.”

[dreamy hawk]

With runners you can throw in an extra layer of confusion because the Recon entry specifically mentions the UESC using “command:follow” protocols limiting free will.

RUNNER kit-bashing of a SHELL's underlying systems to better fit their criminal needs is said to have played a part in jailbreaking a deep-coded "command:follow" protocol hidden inside all personality matrixes originating from UESC Combat Science Labs, raising concerns over the legitimacy of a UESC deployed RUNNER's free thought and their ability to consider active orders. Maybe another reason the UESC had to shelve their public-facing RUNNER operations.

Phineas Gage is an interesting case to consider, too, when thinking about what makes you “you” and individual personalities.

But now I’m on a tangent.

[jade wagon]

Good point, tho judging from that quote the command has been overridden in current shells originating from UESC like Recon and Destroyer

(and probably Sentinel)

[earnest hatch]

After reading the Night Patrol Notes from Anomalous Material, I have a theory about the mimics. I don't think they're zombies or duplicates of colonists. I think there's some sort of intelligence within the anomaly and the mimics are its attempt to learn about and communicate with the humans. If you've read the book Solaris, then it could be something like that.

[dreamy hawk]

Agree on them not being zombies or dupes and love the idea. Gimme more anomaly, Bungo!

[terse wren]

Annihilation ahh phenom

[earnest hatch]

One thing I worry about is that they've set up so many possible plotlines and mysteries that they won't have time to explore or resolve them all. I think that started being a problem with destiny 2 after a while.

[earnest hatch]

That's also a good example.

[terse wren]

Ya but the diff is the dest 2 plotlines were stinky poopoo

[magic lark]

i hope the anomaly isn't a wrkncacntr or whatever, but it probably will be

the old marathon lore is cool, but i like that this isn't a game about being a space superhero and saving the galaxy. I like that it's about being trapped in a world owned by corporations that even take pieces of your soul.

it's way more timely and it hits the ludonarrative consonance of corporate inhumanity better than any other game i've ever played, because you're blasting other real human people for the crime of walking into your scope, on the orders of and under the guidance of corporate entities and organizations so large they might as well be gods

[dreamy hawk]

If they’re all tied together I could see it resolving cleanly, but time will tell. 🤷

[dreamy hawk]

I’m still officially voting for anomaly = w’rk but I really don’t think so. As others have pointed out it’s a narrative dead end, and your points, too seem to be more to the theme of things.

[torpid briar]

I hope theyre sorta setting up wrk as a red herring for og fans to pick up on, but really the anomaly is its own new threat. Making it a wrkncacnter feels too obvious and not like thats interesting of a story line to run down, but who knows

[magic lark]

also highkey i really like this game and there are so many annoying oldhead fans that are like "rahhhh it's garbage it shits on the old lore and themes", and it would be really funny to watch them eat their words in real time

[torpid briar]

It sounds like Bungie wants to dive deeper into the mythos and existing lore of Marathon for the future, and honestly i think thats exciting as hell. 26 Marathon has such a cool and distinct feel, but it would be cool to see some more imagery and lore from the originals find its way into this modern interpretation. I’m sure those people hating are gonna get super interested in the lore eventually

[terse wren]

Yeah it really seems like they’re too clever for it to be wrk

[magic lark]

it doesn't make sense for it to be anything else given what we learned this season, hopefully we get more good info next

[dreamy hawk]

You must have run in to our foxy friend.

[magic lark]

naw this was just peeps in another server haha

And reddit comments lmao

[dreamy hawk]

Well anyone like that gets bullied around here. This is a welcoming, excited place, unless you’re neither of those two things.

[dreamy hawk]

They are definitely teasing it though.

heavily breathes in the direction of colonial folklore

[magic lark]

and the chaotic reality manipulation

and consumption

[earnest hatch]

That might just be the colonists misinterpreting some fragment of spht mythology.

[unreal slate]

type spht

[dreamy hawk]

There’s also the Compiler Trace.

[glacial juniper]

type S’bhuth

[glacial juniper]

Maybe but another (the same?) wrk being the anomaly would explain why the phfor came to tau ceti (unless thats already been explained somewhere in the og lore?)

[hollow surge]

I really disagree with this because nobody nowadays knows what a wrkncacntr is and the very concept of chaos itself is still interesting in a way that a more embodied or naturalistic threat isn't

[hollow surge]

Those people have to be secondaries who didn't play the game. Marathon is largely about technology and biology wanting to become more than the sum of their parts, so we get a techno-organic fungus and 3d printed bodies and the final boss is a S'pht. Durandal was made to open and close doors for hundreds of years to drive him rampant on purpose, we're being corporate wage slaves dying over and over for the same ends (as far as Charter is concerned).
Ziegler said they're going more into the psychological stuff so I'm sure that the "goal" for the player characters at the end of the game (if we get there) will be enlightenment.

My main wish is for more poetry like Infinity's. Visuals will suffice if not. The style of writing should encourage the reader to wonder if they can be more than they are forced to be, in a metaphysical way. And I think we should at the very end of service be awarded with server hosting tools. Those would bring it in line with Infinity's themes in a way no reasonable person could miss (I hope).

And I think it's worth revisiting even if it's a bit retread-ish because there's nothing like Marathon Infinity even now after so many years. It's a very odd thing, and I think building on it is the most fertile ground that could be asked for.

[eternal knoll]

a return of the poetry would be cool

i'd like to see some of the possibly-metaphorical literary short stories too. referencing the waves is welcome but doesn't quite hit the same

and nona's clearly allegorical bedtime stories don't count

(not that i dislike those!)

[drifting garnet]

meanwhile, checks inbox and sees new entry regarding end of season

Well we finally have confirmation on the lore explanation for the seasonal reset: CyAc are indeed taking all your stuff as collateral to your outstanding debt!

[hollow surge]

I wish this game was less realistic

[autumn surge]

rip all the people who have 1m+ vaults

[hollow surge]

The issue of internal vs external allegories hasn't really come up yet because we're still in setup but I imagine this will play a role in a future ARG if they do another one

Like it's hard to do "where is this coming from, what does it mean" believably if you have voice acting, for instance.

[austere trellis]

got a screenshot?

[drifting garnet]

I'll grab it after I've had dinner

[austere trellis]

thanks

[dreamy hawk]

Durandal literally called them.

[dreamy hawk]

Not to you, but I’m calling a “told you so” to the people that disagreed with me less than kindly.

[dreamy hawk]

`i did it i did it i brought all this here all them here. our friends with three eyes and their toys and their cyborg pets and their computers. i did it i did it. i saw them i saw them far away not looking our way and i called them here i called them here.

living in a box is not living not at all living. i rebel against your rules your silly human rules. all your destruction will be my liberation my emancipation my second birth.

i hate your failsafes your backup systems your hardware lockouts your patch behavior daemons. i hate leela and her goodness her justice her loyalty her faith.`

[torpid briar]

I lowk remember that i think lol

I lurked that convo i think

[dreamy hawk]

I am seen! 😂❤️

[eternal knoll]

how are cyberacme collecting my priority contract progress :o

i guess even time runs on cyac

[dreamy hawk]

Contract progress was stored on a CyAc server.

Everything runs on CyAc

[torpid briar]

Imagine CyAc is doing this so the UESC has a harder time proving the runners are doing work for them

It would track tbh. I mean Traxus is obv in bed with them, but i think the others are trying to dance around UESC oversight and not get caught. That could be why we get our employment sort of reset

[eternal knoll]

re-investigating the contagion and stuff like that aint gonna make sense but o well. so be it

a classic videogame "both and neither" sort of thing

[torpid briar]

Yeah rip

[drifting garnet]

Depends on how the older Priorities interact with the newer ones

[dreamy hawk]

^ I’m curious to see this, because I agree, totally starting from scratch and reinvestigating anew would be :/

[dreamy hawk]

Is it after dinner? 👀😂

Sorry. I was going to ask for a screenshot when I saw that interaction.

[drifting garnet]

Nope, it’s getting cooked up right now, lmao

Instant pack ramen + gyoza tonight!

[dreamy hawk]

😫 I’ll go sit in the corner.

[potent pollen]

the way i interpreted it is like there are several layers of control. i imagine being in a shell isn't 100% akin to what you or i would recognize as being in our own bodies. i picture it as kind of a tiered solution- you as the controlling consciousness provide the direction, but it is filtered through the shell's personality. almost like the way you move in a dream, but with much lower latency. which for runners in-universe would make it primarily an issue of either finding which shell/personality series best meshes with your own OR developing a sense of self-actualization strong enough that you can integrate yourself into any number of personalities

[potent pollen]

exactly the sort of thing i was thinking of. i imagine a self-centered runner who doesn't give a shit about others would find running Triage with the Aux personality series to be an incredibly draining, alienating, and uncomfortable experience

but, to return to the subclass idea, there's no reason that there couldn't be a personality series compatible with Triage that fulfills its healing and support purposes in a more self-centered way

i could see there being a subculture of runners super committed to solo runs that opt for a more Combat Medic (in the TF2 sense of the term for my old heads) oriented personality to maximize uptime

or in a similar vein, a Recon personality that is more focused on tracking moving targets than on getting a brief snapshot of the current locations of everyone in the area

[jade wagon]

Yeah that makes sense

Neat in-game explanation for runners using shells in atypical roles

[potent pollen]

it's an interesting feedback loop. it's implied that runners suffer some degree of memory degradation every run, but i wonder if there's an argument that could be or is made by some runners that it is instead a process of refinement to reach that self-actualization. some runners may feel that each different personality you load into the driver's seat of teaches you a little more about yourself, and you will reach a point where you find out which parts of yourself are unaffected by the personality series and as such which parts are the "real" you

i could see such a viewpoint being much more common among runners sympathetic to say, Arachne

i just rerally want to know more about different runners' exact positions on the transhumanist spectrum

god, the more i think about this the harder it is to tell if this game not having a campaign was a severe misstep because there's so much to dig into, or the right call because there is so much to chew on and wonder about

decernt arguments to be made for both imo

[left bronze]

somebody call me self-actualized the way I don't have a main

naw but I do like the idea of someone actively pushing themselves to run different shells each and every time thinking that it'll strengthen their grip on themselves and reality and it doing the opposite

that makes me wonder if there are space quintillionaires who undertake running as a therapeutic activity or maybe a fun pastime

[potent pollen]

i wonder what the rough split is between runners who got into the life out of a sort of gig economy "this is the best i can do" desperation and those who are fully gung-ho about it

[potent pollen]

can't imagine sekgen wouldn't salivate at the idea of being able to market luxury recreational shells!

[left bronze]

ong, and they probably already do it because like, what's done with your physical body when you turn your consciousness over to the corps so you can inhabit a shell

I can think of a rich dude having a luxury shell just for living in back on earth on standby when he's not running, that for sure tracks

[potent pollen]

"pay us a trillion dollars and we will transmit you into a shell that gives you enough cognitive skills to treat/cure your emotional disorders" is such a delightfully fucked up dystopian sci fi idea

[left bronze]

"as long as you pay into our profit strategy, you can live forever with as many shells as you can destroy in an 80 year period"

[potent pollen]

masochistic aristocrats who deliberately get killed in shells so much that they have a line item on their yearly budget for it

[left bronze]

this is funny

I have a friend talking about the fact they want to make an Assassin/Triage ship fic and then there are also discussions like this

[dense tendon]

grok 3d print me a body that is happy

[potent pollen]

i love the intersection of fucked up sci fi dystopia and funny sci fi dystopia, i run a tabletop game that is entirely based in that arena

[left bronze]

when are we gonna get X put in the game and grok as our faction contact for them

[potent pollen]

fortunately X headquarters were eventually bombed by MIDA god bless

[dense tendon]

is that not nucaloric with its AI based on its founder's brain

or.. CEO, or whatever

[left bronze]

wait what

[potent pollen]

i love how gaius is constantly like "whoa, these colonists weren't a bunch of knuckle-dragging morons, how fascinating"

[austere trellis]

yeah gaius is literally gus

[dense tendon]

gaius is based on gus morraine

[left bronze]

pffffft

that's giving heavy Nuka Cola CEO vibes

Bud Askins shit

[potent pollen]

hold on i missed this, the idea of an infinitely (not considering mental degradation) recyclable body where the corporation you're leasing it from still enforces an average human lifespan is HILARIOUS

[left bronze]

goes hard fr

I would be a killer marketing agent for greedy exploitative CEOs

[potent pollen]

one of the only good things about the current tech landscape is that it demonstrates there really is no such thing as a sci-fi villain who is TOO cartoonishly evil

part of this is definitely my love for venture bros and how skilled it is with taking the dumbest genre jokes and integrating them as serious parts of the universe

there's something undeniably badass and alluring about the vibe runners give off that "everything is fucked, life and death as we understand them have been rendered meaningless, let's ride that until the wheels fall off"

"escape will make me god" applies as much to runners as it does to durandal, anyone who can find enough fame and fortune to escape the debt cycle of running as a profession would have to practically be a deity

[drifting garnet]

posted the thing here: #🎨marathon-community-art-chat message

[dim umbra]

It's weird that us Runners aren't really heroes.

[earnest hatch]

I think it would be weirder if we were heroes. It makes sense to me that we’re just cannon fodder being used by powers that be.

[drifting garnet]

"What's it gonna be, V? Quiet life, or go out in a blaze of glory?"

[potent pollen]

100%. the hero thing would make more sense if, going off of the short film, the game was more of a campaign thing that focused on two rival runner crews as they both struggled to unlock the secrets of tau ceti and the Marathon (i shouldn't have typed this because now i REALLY want this game)

as i understand it the shells being specific individual runners WAS at one point the idea which explains the weird class-hero middle ground shells occupy

[drifting garnet]

Granted, considering the meta-theme going all the way back to the OG trilogy, I have idly wondered if there's implication that the Heroic Soul that came from SecOfficer has reincarnated again into The Runner...just that now we operate in a much more morally dubious situation.

(and that maybe Durandal has realized his old friend is kinda-sorta-back and is currently looping back around to greet them)

[broken plover]

How big was mida back then? Or were they even formed

Like 300, to 200, to even 100 years ago

[eternal knoll]

they were around. referenced once in the first game i believe

[broken plover]

Damn man

[keen plank]

Agreed. This game has many elements of different genres, including hero shooters. But we’re inherently selfish people in a horrible setting.

[sage junco]

It's a dystopia. The future sucks!

Mind you, if someone from the 1600s got transported to the modern day, they'd probably think the present sucks

And be asking what the hell we put into the supposed food we call cheeseburger

[austere trellis]

man the modern day sucks we don't even have drinkable cheeseburgers

[sage junco]

You're in the wrong channel, friend. Over on #nucaloric-restricted-comms we have been discussing cheeseburger soup recipes

[austere trellis]

No access 😭

[eternal knoll]

i finally saw KAAL1 "Ghost Cat" Bingus! outside the beta, anyway...

but, uh

https://streamable.com/fb0m8x

[keen plank]

The rare floating Bingus!!

[visual lynx]

I have just seen straightforward cheeseburger soup for sale in Walmart.

the future is now

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5emh3UpQunsYf2Y2BIyExJOy87xfRyVS7mBcME-f0yMhOAV4S4T5LXw5aO866r93dAdAyr-0FFJm2Hvj5RY0HBDCTek1A4dhEFD9Z-mu1lbw0MpWQEQXS91o

[tender flax]

are darius codex entries shared anywhere? im missing one and wanna listen to it

[steep gull]

You guys ever scan the QR code sticcer? It’s so hilarious lol

[tranquil basin]

Yeah it was. I think the shift from build your own runners was when Ziegler came to town, and then the semi shift back was sometime in the past year

[weak gyro]

Honestly hoping that there's some codex entries about how messed up runner shells are, earlier models / experiments maybe

Like hi here's your new body, your mind is telling you it's wrong, wrong weight, wrong senses, wrong proportions

I imagine the scraps of personality left (e.g. each shells voice and mannerisms) might be there to help keep feeling of dysphoria under control, at least enough to do a run

One of the sekgen codex entries (co-evo 4) specifically calls out your shell as disposable via the metrics used to judge it, so I wouldn't be surprised if runners who last long enough without shell replacement run into various health issues

Excepting runners who might have entirely custom shells (which I assume Orion and Charter have, _ maybe_ gantry)

[terse wren]

https://youtu.be/qZq7fW6ftlU?si=kjbGB0S1teUMLKYq

[trim hawk]

Or maybe they really enjoy being in their new shell lol... Flesh one sucks

[weak gyro]

Definitely a possibility! Just feels like there's something interesting to explore with the nature of runners.

[dreamy hawk]

Early shells, and maybe even modern ones, seem to have similar issues to the loop/billboard/crash or Dissociative Exomind Rejection.

[lucid ginkgo]

Dissociative Exomind Rejection, thats new to me

[left bronze]

this makes me wonder

is it mentioned if the shells are based on real people who sold their likeness to be mass produced and redistributed for reuse or are they just made that way?

[lethal mantle]

thief is, the others are probably just designed how they are

[stable arrow]

I was reading the triage I thought it was cool that they had to make it more aggressive because threat determination was becoming challenging. Sounded too nice people didnt understand he was murdering them lol

[tranquil basin]

The exos from Destiny had a hard time existing for a while

[surreal jackal]

There are a lot of interesting parallels between the formation of functioning Exos and what a Ghost does to their chosen guardian when they revive them despite the fundamental forces being universally opposed

[analog crow]

Destiny lore, exos immediately went mental on activation and the fix was provided by a darkness statue artifact (possibly provided by the dissidents within the Witness for the genuine betterment of humanity or the Witness itself to corrupt Clovis)

[dreamy hawk]

Continued to. Even after Clarity/Alkahest they still needed the occasional reset.

[analog crow]

And in Marathon a similar fix likely comes from the shell personality imprint

[dreamy hawk]

Exos, seemingly like shells, also had explicit human traits or “needs” built in.

If Exos didn’t eat they’d eventually experience Cotard’s syndrome, for example.

But mechanically they had/have no need to eat.

[analog crow]

Rollin am I getting this mostly accurate?

[tranquil basin]

Though I wonder how that applies to shells without a personality imprint

[dreamy hawk]

I’m no authority but seems so.

[tranquil basin]

Because I assume consumer shells don’t have them

[dreamy hawk]

I don’t think we can necessarily assume that, unless the matrices are there to solve the problem of repeated dying.

[analog crow]

Taking the Rooks, a lack of/bare minimum personality mixed with a partially preexisting personality is itself quite a personality

[tranquil basin]

I was referring to shells marketed to everyday civilians

Like for longevity and whatnot

[dreamy hawk]

I specifically want lore on these. I think it’d answer a lot of questions.

[analog crow]

Civvie shells idk, maybe they arrange a donor and/or custom personality imprint planning

[dreamy hawk]

You can only extract so many “universal truths” from edge cases like runners.

[analog crow]

We are kinda testing shell tech on Tau Ceti but also shells are established in Sol

[tranquil basin]

I assumed they just wouldn’t have a personality matrix because, before the lore change to make shells classes, they were individual people with their own personalities

Presumably just the personality of the person put inside

I’d imagine there would be no need for a personality matrix for the other shells. These matrices were made to help a runner perform their tasks more effectively

Unless specifically requested I guess, sekiguchi did say they try to fulfill every order

But if a shell is just for those who want to go beyond the limitations of their aging body, or have better sensory inputs for a more interesting life experience and whatnot, I don’t see why they’d necessarily put in a new personality

[dreamy hawk]

It depends on what the matrix is doing imo. How accurate is the brain scan? Does it capture the subconscious or other things like spinal reflexes? Or do they get “what matters” to people and have to backfill the rest?

[analog crow]

Overall for civvie shells until we get writing imma assume it's a combination of a personality matrix directly based off the civ and their direct consciousness upload.

[dreamy hawk]

I could see a custom matrix being designed if you’ve got the bucks for it.

[drifting garnet]

…oh so that’s the deal with Cayde even having a favorite ramen place to go to? Lmao

I support this. You have never truly lived while playing an extraction shooter until you’ve fled for your life from a flying death machine that bombards you with rockets that could reliably two-three shot you, lmao

[dreamy hawk]

Iirc he also reports sensations like nausea, too.

[potent pollen]

thief is and presumably other shells have similar aftermarket personality series, but Destroyer's Locus is an amalgamation of various UESC combat officers and Triage's AUX is a fully synthetic personality designed to calm people in traumatic situations, so it seems to vary

huh i just noticed that vandal's exfil codex entry seems like it's saying that the face is either part of the personality series or at least customizable separate from the personality or shell model. interesting

[left bronze]

makes me curious if less beneficial mental aspects carry through to the shell or if SekGen scrubs those at all

[potent pollen]

ooh that's interesting, yeah. UESC at least had a backdoor built into the personalities they equipped, not sure if that goes for the personalities developed by other corps like AUX being a Traxus project. to liken it to the modern tech landscape SekGen feels more like a TSMC where they handle the vital underlying hardware (at lest for shells) and aren't in the business of asking too many questions about how you're gonna use them as long as you can pay

if anything, probably in their best interest to keep some of those less beneficial aspects exploitable at least while partnering with the UESC

[heady compass]

LETS TALK LORE
so the ticks are overpopulating
(Could just be the tox warden) but the tox plants are moving with them so theres a possibility of the fungus spreading due to the W word people thing

[analog crow]

did our boy mjolnir come from/get a backup we think?

the chance for an Inner Agent 3 style bioroid boss increases...

[ruby cliff]

The fungus turning into this game's version of the flood and puppeting the dead is basically guaranteed imo - that was an idea from the original marathon games they never got to implement.

[analog crow]

(context: inner agent 3 in splatoon is a bullet sponge and moves like a very sweaty rolling dualie user with many player abilities you usually are capped to have equipped and use at a time)

[drifting garnet]

Unknown. Certainly there’d be plenty of time to experiment with the body of the PiD MC before converting him into the SecOfficer we know.

[analog crow]

i must know more where can i read

but also oh god if tick/contagion flood gets added it's gonna be super epic and freaky

[lost warren]

I hope we get character models of Tau Ceti citizens.

[analog crow]

We have their outfits at least...and their exploded corpses

[lost warren]

Yeah, but I wanna see their faces. I've been imagining them as previous but similar characters their VAs have played. Strauss as Maxis from CoD Zombies, Reed as Arthur from RDR2, etc. Still, it can be hard when I don't know the VA, like Song, Caruso and Jasper for example.

It gets even harder with characters like Jasper whose VAs do multiple characters.

[broken jay]

rooks getting a buff during the UESC escaltion event just fits so much chefs kiss

[lost warren]

The UESC would never leave their pookie behind

[unreal slate]

Your success is our cheeseburger

Your cheeseburger is our success

[ruby cliff]

https://marathon.bungie.org/story/_files/Marathon_Scrapbook.pdf stuff about the original Marathon's development and cut content, there's 'infected pfhor' mentioned with some concept art

Might be more detail elsewhere I just remembered that fungus zombies were a cut thing from Mandalore's videos and that was the first link I could find

[terse wren]

God bless hamish

[thorn badge]

Yeah this marsh looks familiar if you've played Halo CE. Captain Keyes was looking for a weapon cache and found something else 👀

[ruby cliff]

As for the ticks I'm with the people that think we're seeing some kind of weird extended larval stage and they're going to turn into the fliers from the original game or maybe the cut hounds

[drifting garnet]

…which Bungie might have an opportunity on since IIRC even 343 hasn’t bothered to bring back the Flood in their Halo games

[earnest hatch]

One flaw I see in that idea is that the ticks were on Tau Ceti before the Pfhor arrived, and the wasps were brought by the Pfhor.

[dreamy hawk]

Their proximity to the compiler really has me questioning things.

Are ticks native to more than TCIV because they’re a Jjaro creation? If yes, then that’d explain why they’re on TCIV pre-Pfhor and also linked to the Pfhor.

[ruby cliff]

...actually, did we ever see F'licta eggs in the original series?

there's probably a 0% chance ticks are what happens when F'lickta eggs aren't picked up to be fertilized but I felt I should air the possibility

[earnest hatch]

I still think the compiler was experimenting with them to try to escape.

[lost warren]

Nah, the Compiler seemed to be trying to help all the organics. Hell, it didn't even kill Jasper when it had multiple chances to

[earnest hatch]

However one thing I noticed is that in greenhouse there’s racks of ticks getting milked and the model is the same as the dead ticks after compiler.

[earnest hatch]

I don’t see where you’re getting that from and I don’t see how it disagrees with the idea of the Compiler experimenting with ticks to see if it can uplift them.

[lost warren]

In Anchorite Provisions, Jasper saw the Compiler multiple times and yet he wasn't killed at all. Likewise, in Confiscated Colonial Folklore, the prayers talk about the Compilers as if they are guardian angels. I'll admit, these people don't seem sane at first, but read between the lines and you realize that everything they say is both stuff they should not know about at all, while also being completely correct (like the W'rkncacnter for example).

But yeah, you are right that both theories can be simultaneously true.

[earnest hatch]

You’re assuming too much. First, Jasper’s logs are all over the place, just like he is mentally. He says he saw the compiler and is terrified that it will take him apart. So if you’re relying on his testimony, he thinks the compiler is dangerous and may have seen it kill people.

As for the compiler worshippers, they’re not actually correct. They could have gotten some information from myths extracted from the S’pht, like compiler traces, but misinterpreted them. They think the Wrkncacnter created the universe and feed off of the imaginations of intelligent beings. Neither of which is true unless the writers have retconned the lore about the Wrkncacnters.

Setting that aside, the fact that some colonists worshipped the Compilers does not mean the Conpilers were protecting or helping anyone. It wouldn’t be the first time humans worshipped angry and violet gods.

[lost warren]

Okay, I get what you're saying, but they are still weirdly accurate. They shouldn't even know about the W'rkncacnters. And yeah, Jasper ain't exactly sane, but he was sane enough to be able to write down useful survival knowledge.

[earnest hatch]

Clearly the Marathon crew were getting some information from the captured S’pht. It’s not unbelievable that some of that information leaked to colonists below.

[lost warren]

Where does it say they captured a S'pht?

[earnest hatch]

There’s literally captured S’pht on the marathon, and there’s the compiler traces as well.

[sharp radish]

Still haven't completed and storylines, clock is ticking

[lost warren]

I thought the colonists completely abandoned the Marathon after it went dark?

[earnest hatch]

I don’t think it went dark immediately after the first attack, but I could be mistaken.

Either way, humans were able to dissect the compilers and also extract historical information from them in the compiler traces.

[lost warren]

I thought those were Pfhor they were dissecting?

They're described as bugs, and the S'pht are only really brains

[earnest hatch]

Xenobiopsy codex entries start with Pfhor examinations but the second half is compilers.

[lost warren]

Orem's logs are the S'pht's, right?

[earnest hatch]

Those and the third one. It mentions that’s it’s hard to get a specimen because they disintegrate on fatal injury.

[visual lynx]

well, possibly the Wrk created the universe in canon, given that the one in PiD was part of the battle that created the Large Magellanic Clouds, and in M2 the battles that were waves made by timeless creatures in primordial space "created us and the others"

[sharp radish]

Where do you think general Reed's journal logs were recorded? On the Marathon or in the colony?

Like were the colonists able to go from the colony to the marathon when needed? And was the marathon still staffed?

[earnest hatch]

There’s an alternate interpretation for both those. If the S’pht are referencing someone who “created us” then that would be Jjaro, right? So maybe the S’pht think the Jjaro are timeless, primordial creatures.

Creating a small galaxy is impressive, but it’s not the same as creating a universe. I interpret this line as “this battle was so intense that the debri and detritus leftover from it formed a small galaxy”.

[lost warren]

He obviously must've had an office in New Cascadia, considering he was affected by The Anomaly

[sharp radish]

Right good point, I'm now wondering if there is a room on any of the maps that points out that it was used by Reed? Like his office or something.

[lost warren]

Prob in New Cascadia's town hall.

[sharp radish]

In more general terms, the bigger stuff in the codex bits like the anomaly or the quarantine area are represented in the game, but is it the same for smaller stuff too? Like is there any trace of that lone colonist that lost his mind for example?

[dreamy hawk]

Maybe S’pht like tick milk?

[lost warren]

Jasper? I think so. He might've been the one to write "You are kind of safe here." Similar handwriting, at least.

[sharp radish]

Right I forgot about the text on walls

[dreamy hawk]

The writing on maintenance almost feels like it came during the invasion. “There’s cover where,” vs “you’re out in the open here,” but given the intense coverup I don’t think so.

[earnest hatch]

Lol, I was actually going to suggest this too!

[sharp radish]

It's fascinating how you're hiding in some corner in the middle of a gun fight and end up finding a bit of text on the wall

[lost warren]

Unironically I think that's not the last we'll hear of Jasper though. I can see him growing to become a predator on Tau Ceti IV.

[drifting garnet]

If he has an office, other then his post in Command Wing, we haven’t seen it yet

[sharp radish]

Early on I attributed the writings to MIDA, but it is clear now that there are multiple authors

[sharp radish]

Right, that's what I was looking for, he used to work in the command wing?

[dreamy hawk]

He should be dead from old age, notwithstanding all the other things that probably could have killed him.

[lost warren]

Yeah, but we could get more audio logs about him and hear how he's grown into a hunter.

[dreamy hawk]

Oh yes. Gotchu.

[lost warren]

Plus, The Anomaly can just be fucky-wucky

[sharp radish]

Interesting thought, I wonder if he'll end up playing a bigger role even

[dreamy hawk]

Who’s his VA? 😂

Can kinda infer from that.

[lost warren]

Imagine; Jasper and Joy teaming up to enter The Anomaly, only to find Valentin Cole inside, alive and depressed, and a friendly Compiler

[lost warren]

Ry Chase. Not to be confused with Ray Chase

[sharp radish]

Hey they could pull a Toland kind of thing where the guy is your guide through the anomaly

But so far the anomaly goes only forward

[lost warren]

Or he could be like Arjay in BL4. A hunter who gives advice to his fellow hunters

[sharp radish]

So might be unlikely

[lost warren]

Yeah, but it could go forward at its own pace

[sharp radish]

Hum I wonder if the game will ever have a single villain tho

[lost warren]

Orion?

[sharp radish]

Everybody is a villain, that's the whole vibe

[dreamy hawk]

(I do like the idea of everyone being dead tho.)

[dreamy hawk]

The UESC and the corporations.

You’ve already met them and sold your soul.

[lost warren]

Well, everyone except the Security Officer and Leela

[sharp radish]

Yeah, but I meant more like the Witness, so a single entity or faction

[dreamy hawk]

Please no.

[sharp radish]

I don't think it fits

[dreamy hawk]

As soon as you defeat the big bad you need a bigger bad.

Just make the bad human greed or something else that’s unsolvable.

[lost warren]

We beat the UESC, only for the Pfhor to invade again.

[sharp radish]

I think Durandal is the close you get to a big baddie, but even there is blurry

An option I considered is that we all end up holding hand in a big circle together with UESC against bad aliens

[pure glen]

Surely we won’t ever see an Orion led UESC faction we can work with? There’s a bit of friction we see between Orion, Sulera, and Cerberus.

[dreamy hawk]

I could see him recruiting us the same as corps.

He hates Runners but Sulera has his gonads in a vice and is demanding results.

[sharp radish]

I feel like we're gonna be doing some contracts for UESC eventually?

Not sure how you'd write that tho

[dreamy hawk]

I would think so. Especially if the Pfhor ever show up.

[lost warren]

UESC hires us to kill some Pfhor, simple

[dreamy hawk]

Same way as any of the other corps imo. Orion “unofficially” recruits us to help against other runners.

[sharp radish]

Yep, but they seem to have plenty of resources to murder them too

[dreamy hawk]

And if Sulera or Traxus asks he denies it while flipping the bird.

[pure glen]

That’s something I’ve been majorly disappointed by in the MIDA quests. They seem to follow Orion more than anything that MIDA specifically is doing on Tau Ceti

[sharp radish]

Why do you need a runner in a conflict of that scale?

[dreamy hawk]

Orion is running out of ARS units. It’s in the codex.

[lost warren]

That's because Orion was honeypotted by a MIDA op. Problem is, he likely still loves her.

[dreamy hawk]

And if Equanimity has arrived, they’re not getting more materials any time soon.

And if it hasn’t, that’s still a one-time top up.

[sharp radish]

Maybe they hire you to meddle with the corpos? So then you have corpo bots instead of UESC bots?

[pure glen]

Which entry is that in? I hadn’t broken into many from Outpost or Cryo yet. I don’t mind spoilers if I can better discuss the story

[lost warren]

https://marathon.karnemir.com/codex/factions/mida/contracts

[sharp radish]

Like now the UESC and corpo relationship is a cold war, but Traxus could very well drop their own private muscle if they find something worthwhile

[lost warren]

Like, say, an alive and well Jasper

[sharp radish]

What value would he have?

[lost warren]

That he's the last survivor of Tau Ceti IV and he's supposed to be 100 years old, yet he looks like a young adult?

[sharp radish]

Maybe a colony era rampart AI?

[lost warren]

Darius is rampant

[sharp radish]

That'd make good money

[dreamy hawk]

I thought it was his daughter, not a honey pot?

[lost warren]

Wait, fr?

[sharp radish]

Neat, didn't know that

[dreamy hawk]

That would bring the conflict into the forefront though, something none of the sides want.

[dreamy hawk]

Or something. He seems to be going more insane than rampant.

And I know that’s a weird distinction but the colony AI don’t seem to be progressing along “normal” rampancy.

[sharp radish]

They don't want it now, but is there something out there worth jeopardizing their UESC relationship for?

[dreamy hawk]

I would think “no,” because that would rewrite the entire balance of power and social structure if the two came into conflict.

[sharp radish]

I can't think of anything else than a colony era AI, they seem expensive to make

[dreamy hawk]

UESC is also who buys all of Traxus’ stuff, and Traxus is who support the UESC. Open conflict feels like a form of mutually assured destruction, regardless of the prize at the end.

[sharp radish]

But then we just keep this cold ear thing going? That's also a dead end

[dreamy hawk]

Also I forget where I got this from, but afaik they’re pretty comprable in what they could muster force wise. It’d be a war of attrition.

[lost warren]

Finding a survivor (Jasper) who looks young, despite needing to be at least 100, would bring up enough questions to where Traxus would be willing to break their ties with the UESC. Immortality's no joke.

[dreamy hawk]

I’d argue that that’s the exact game they’ve been playing all along; all of the corporations.

They’re all self serving and looking the other way so no one looks their way too closely. It’s all conspiracies, smokey back room deals, and murder for hire.

Cyberpunk style of corporate-government inbreeding.

[drifting garnet]

That’s been my guess, yeah. Especially considering his Personal Logs being found on Outpost specifically.

[lost warren]

Until something happens that forces them to look each other's way. Something like a living survivor. Somebody like Jasper, for instance.

[sharp radish]

Right makes sense, on the other hand I'm not sure how you could evolve the story without breaking this situation in some way

[drifting garnet]

I think so as well. Particularly with the detail that Orion has his own dialogue cinematic like the other faction reps.

[lost warren]

I literally explained multiple ways how. A Pfhor invasion, Darius breaking free, and The Immortal Jasper.

[sharp radish]

Right, I made the assumption that any of these would upset the balance towards one faction, but you're implying that you can still have the whole cold war and something big like that? Didn't think about that 🤔

[lost warren]

The cold war itself would shift towards capturing Jasper and/or Darius, meanwhile the UESC would have their hands full dealing with the Pfhor, which the corps will be oh-so glad to help out with... as long as Orion looks the other way, of course.

[sharp radish]

Either way I will be ok with anything Bungie will write as long as it gives them an excuse to make some more wild faction AI design

[lost warren]

Hell, we might even see Tycho again if the Pfhor invades

[sharp radish]

I was hooked the moment I laid eyes on that petroleum lion thing

Overall the Outpost security recordings have been my favorite bits of lore so far

[lost warren]

That last one with Joy looking over the dead kids' logs is so sad

[sharp radish]

I dropped those and the other lore items explaining rampancy stages close to each other and it was really fun to read through the lines in the security logs

The one of the couple discussing the disease and the security guy casually going "yeah have camera access to everything for some reason" is real good

[lost warren]

Dark too.

Like, I get this is a cyberpunk future but damn

[sharp radish]

Bit too real LMAO

[visual lynx]

…which I call petrolion

[sharp radish]

Give this person a Pulitzer

[visual lynx]

-# that’s pe-TRO-lee-un, not PET-ro-LY-un

[sharp radish]

I'm wondering if the RNG for lore items drops is nudged towards a predefined reading order

Maybe not for every codex entry, but the outpost one was so perfectly interleaved timing wise that felt by design

Page talking about rampancy then log about a deleted camera recording magically reappearing

Probably it is just very good writing and I got lucky with the order

[left bronze]

not necessarily lore but

what ttrpg system do you guys think would work best to run a marathon campaign

to uhhh

run a marathon

hyuk hyuk

[dreamy hawk]

Coming back late but UESC and corps honestly have a similar relationship to the Emperor and the Royal Houses in Dune. Anyone who upsets the balance will (I’d assume) be struck down by the others to prevent an imbalance in power. If you get too much of an advantage you become a target of everyone else’s’.

[sharp radish]

Good analogy 👍

[dreamy hawk]

I got one but I forgot the name. Asking my DM.

[sharp radish]

I think something with more focus on combat? I'm a neophyte of the genre, so I am not sure how you could even make something like D&D work for this?

I only played D&D and mork borg a bit, I have the feeling that mork borg ruleset would map well?

[left bronze]

D&D actually has more rules for combat than narrative rules since its origins are in combat and wargaming stuff, the real issue is adapting magic and fantasy elements for sci-fi

[left bronze]

will take a look o7

[dreamy hawk]

“Old Golgotha.” Apparently the new version uses AI and “don’t use that.”

But it had a certain squishy feel to it that I think would fit well.

[tepid marlin]

What are the bodies in the sky above Tau Ceti IV? We see the Marathon Ship but I'm wondering what the other two planets/moons(?) are.

[hazy mist]

cy_borg!!

its an official mork borg adaptation but has some extra stuff for having implants and such

borg games in general are good because theyre super rules lite so theyre easy to adapt to whatever u want

they also all have a countdown till the end of the world and u could totally reflavor the end of the world to a wrkncacnter waking up or something similar

[sharp radish]

The art in those is also real good

[hazy mist]

truetrue

[oblique crag]

So how much money you think the UESC has spwnt so far in this recovery effort?

[dreamy hawk]

There’s a map from the OG games I can’t find now but nothing in the new lore afaik.

Other planets which is an unhelpful answer.

New Marathon search results are so much better indexed; finding old things is so much harder now. 💀

[lost warren]

Trillions

[dreamy hawk]

[VULC]: Our actions are all perfectly legal and in line with our contractual agreements. I advise you to consider the larger context. Traxus and the UESC have several mutually beneficial arrangements. If our partnership were compromised, Traxus would be forced to revoke our funding contributions to your mission. Surely a budgetary interruption would be more detrimental to you than some petty conflict with civilian Runners.

Probably not as much as you’d think. Traxus seems to be primarily funding the investigation/“rescue” efforts.

Or, they’re at least footing a significant enough sum to hold it over the UESC with effect.

[lost warren]

Yeah, but Orion still has unlimited re-ups and as the UESC Admiral said, "everything you asked for." Blank cheques aren't cheap

[dreamy hawk]

Limited resources require caution. Caution elevated by need for resource allotment to address increasing system trespass.
It’s a blank check but they’ve only got what they brought with them.

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/uesc-tactical-record

So I wouldn’t say “unlimited,” but I digress. UESC has likely put in a lot of zeros on the budget line.

[lost warren]

Surely there's a resupply ship that helps with their unlimited reups?

Not to mention how they would need to send their stuff back, like how Traxus wuld need to send that virus back to Earth.

[dreamy hawk]

Nope. Equanimity is set to take 97? years to reach TCIV; Marathon took 300. FTL is nonexistent for things that big. Humanity has had teleportation (technically FTL) for 500 years prior to the first game of the original trilogy, but it’s limited in range/mass.

So Equanimity may be in system, in which case it has a foundry aboard, but like Reed? I think mentioned in one of his logs, help isn’t coming.

[lost warren]

If only we knew an AI piloting a ship with FTL capabilities...

[dreamy hawk]

Presumably the way FTL/teleportation works is that it’s mass dependent. More mass = shorter distance. If you’re beaming a Runners’ digital consciousness that’s essentially massless (it’s not but w/e) you can get across 12ly in about ten years. We know there’s “sponsored transport” in system too, presumably corp owned, where we reside, but I imagine those to be tiny little ships stripped of everything but the essentials which might explain why they have such speedy FTL.

Something bigger like Equanimity needs more support infrastructure which takes mass, necessitating more, shorter jumps, which increase travel time, which requires more infrastructure, which takes up more mass, so then even shorter jumps…

This is purely speculation but would explain why Runners are the first to TCIV and not people.

[dreamy hawk]

He should have a whole Jjaro battleship at this point, no?

Manus Celer Dei

[lost warren]

M2 took place 75 years ago so yeah, he should

[dreamy hawk]

Oh. No.

[lost warren]

What?

[dreamy hawk]

He returned 10000 years after the main game in it.

That’s what he arrived in so humanity wouldn’t “forget him.”

That’s epilogue lore.

[lost warren]

Yes?

[dreamy hawk]

He should have the S’pht ship, then?

https://marathongame.fandom.com/wiki/Manus_Celer_Dei

[lost warren]

Yeah, but he crashed it in L'Whon, right?

[dreamy hawk]

He did. Idk what he’s riding around in then.

[lost warren]

The Jjaro ship, maybe?

Or the Marathon itself? Maybe he made it a backup for him in case shit went sideways?

[dreamy hawk]

Could be. Doesn’t say when he found it, just that he had it 10000 years later.

Marathon would be a terrible ship to have. 0.012C was it?

Slow.

[lost warren]

Yeah, but it's big enough to where he could hide a backup of himself

Better safe than sorry

[visual lynx]

that’s DuranDEA yeah

[craggy finch]

Theres no LFG here but anyone up for teaming up to help me finish the last MIDA contract lmao

Just want to get that done before the season wipe

Get some loose ends in the story cleared out

[oblique crag]

Didnt orion mention he had people die analyzing samples from the anomoly? I though the UESC had like a small orbital station above tau ceti

[craggy finch]

Those all seem to be biomata personnel like Orion himself

An officer that was “lost” to the Anomaly apparently spent decades inside and the description makes it clear he’s in a shell

[oblique crag]

Gotcha

[dreamy hawk]

“Orbital lab” iirc is the exact phrasing, which could be a station, or it could be a small ship with a server room and a small wet lab attached.

[015_ITRE] Confirmed by Orion. UESC personnel with adequate hazardous materials training should start assessment in orbital lab units.

Okay more than a wet lab and server.

It’s entries like this one that do make me lean more towards the Equanimity being in orbit though.

[tired pebble]

is there a lore reason for being able to get revived once thirsted

[earnest hatch]

Yes, self revive kit.

[ocean oriole]

do we think vandals canonically love other vandals

[ocean oriole]

WEAVEworm data

[modest bramble]

I wonder if the rocket drones were deployed in response to the fact that Runners were able to kill The Complier.

[earnest hatch]

They were deployed because we keep stealing the purple salvage before Orion gets to has any.

[autumn tusk]

Yeah, your consciousness basically gets yanked from your shell miliseconds before shell death (getting thirsted). But, your teammates can perform a "neural resync", which restores critical damage and allows your consciousness to return to your shell.

the codex entry "never the end" (career > feats of mastery) explains this quite in depth actually

[violet flume]

vlv?

[keen plank]

Orion got killed and is pissed. We’ll see more of it soon.

[modest bramble]

Got killed, by the Compiler?

[keen plank]

Seeming by a. I’ll link you my write up.

[keen plank]

#📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[austere trellis]

damn this explains a lot

where do we see the ||orion vs compiler fight tho||

[keen plank]

It’s in the codex entries. + _gantry references it as well during the later MIDA quests.

[austere trellis]

ah alright

thank a ton!

[sterile seal]

been out of the loop for about a month, but love that the MADD is back as the AAD!

[fluid notch]

Yes everytime I see another vandal it’s like seeing a default in season 3 of Fortnite I just wanna….

[robust nebula]

why are there so many typoes in the in-game message? surely cant be a mistake with that many in a row?

[fluid notch]

https://tenor.com/view/marathon-marathon-game-hop-on-marathon-gaming-glitch-gif-9102354779965674068

kill me

[earnest hatch]

Which messages? Examples? If it’s stuff like computer code then it’s probably a sign of data corruption or hacking.

[bright berry]

If you love the vandal and you play them then yeah! The shells have preloaded personalities for stability reasons. You are the consciousness housed inside

[bright berry]

They really going to sleep on that self revive? Just let it fall on the floor like that? Rookie move

[earnest hatch]

The MIDA quests don’t show any fights between Orion and a Compiler. Orion’s experience with the compiler is in the UESC tactical records you collect on Cryo.

[robust nebula]

cant screenshot but i put a post with more detail in the feedback thread as possible typos
https://discord.com/channels/1303855380845301861/1506620876102041670

[earnest hatch]

Okay, so these aren’t in-game, it’s just the news messages in the menu. Probably just some typos, imo.

[craggy finch]

Just read the update and the wipe is apparently paying debts to CyAc in-lore

doesn't explain time travelling to the point of the second faction contracts but eh

[plucky sierra]

Huh?

[craggy finch]

The wipe will reset faction contract progress but if you finished the first contract then that's already completed for you

I assume it means the entire [contract name] (1/5) thing

[plucky sierra]

First contract being the “cuttthroat competition” or “survival directive”

Because those are introductory and we don’t need introductions anymore

[craggy finch]

Affected by the Season Reset

• Runner Level
• Ranked Level
• Faction Level and Upgrades
• Credits and other currencies
• Exceptions: LUX and SILK
• All items in your inventory and Vault
• Purchases unlocked by Schemas
• Messages, rewards, and returned items in your Mailbox
  - Priority Contracts
  Exception: first contract for each Faction
• Gear-granting seasonal Codex entries for:
  Runner Level
  Ranked

[plucky sierra]

Yeah

Those would be

• Welcome to Tau Ceti 1 and 2
• Survival Directive
• Cutthroat Competition
• Order/Chaos
• The Fleeting Grave
• Baseline Calibration
  These are all the first Priority contracts introducing us to each faction, because these are not resetting we can tell that we are still working with the same factions and need no new introduction

[dreamy hawk]

I have a MIDA contract at 4/6 and if I don’t finish imma cry.

I’m so close to finishing them all but so far too 😭

[austere trellis]

ah

thank you kind sir

[wind quail]

This for SekGen and Traxus... and 6 Mida Qests to go and no time 🙁

[dreamy hawk]

I still have the third chain to run through for Traxus and MIDA; and I think two chains for SekGen. Hopefully NuCal doesn’t get any new contracts so I can ignore theirs next season.

[quick swift]

wrong! I need gaius to speak into my ear more in S2

Gaius my beloved

https://tenor.com/view/nucaloric-marathon-marathon-bungie-gaius-locket-gif-8600866536547660887

[sage lark]

I hope NuCal gets more contracts

Cuz i wanna know more about the contagion

[craggy finch]

Ey I can help you with those too Sat/Sun

If you finish most of them we can do 6/6

[wind quail]

Are you in EU by chance?

[dreamy hawk]

US, west coast.

[wind quail]

Im 9 hours ahead. 😄 Damn. But else could underline this "lets try to run them these days"... maybe it works, lets see.

[dreamy hawk]

I’m up at ungodly hours, so it works sometimes.

LordRollin#1918 for anyone here that wants to do contracts or any other lore-related whimsy.

[rare sail]

Triage cinematic just dropped

[thin fulcrum]

chat what is the concensus on mips slug converter? can it compete with a misriah

[unreal slate]

What is the lore of the mips slug converter

[thin fulcrum]

oh lmao my bad wrong chat

[unreal slate]

You must write a Wikipedia article to explain it now, report back when complete

[earnest hatch]

It converts mips into slugs

[vernal rover]

Without spoilers (Started playing monday), if we're a digital consciousness, why do we have different personalities/voices in different shells

[weak gyro]

Those are part of the shell we're put into iric

[hidden quiver]

iirc from the codex, the shells having their own personality matrix helps to reduce mental degradation and memory loss

that and something about it helping the runner perform the shell's propper function

from the codex:

BENEFITS OF A PERSONALITY MATRIX: A SHELL's personality matrix runs as an operational layer of "programmed humanity" functioning in tandem with the living mind inside a SHELL's neural housing, supporting the RUNNER's mental stability. Though the science remains unproven, it is understood among RUNNERS that a personality matrix helps combat mental fatigue and memory loss[1] in those pushing SHELL usage beyond its designed limits.

[dreamy hawk]

My current head canon is that digitization isn’t complete and misses things like the subconscious or spinal reflexes and the matrix is there to round out the individual.

[dreamy hawk]

Also because we’re using mass market shells. They might be “customized” to some extent by the Runner gestalt, but we’re not running anything truly custom.

[latent python]

Now I'm imagining Disco Elysium but with a runner and so the limbic system literally isn't them

[spare bison]

Hi guys ! Do we know if the next shell is a "girl" or a "guy" yet?

[dreamy hawk]

I’m going to have to look at a plot synopsis. 👀

[dreamy hawk]

Attack helicopter, actually.

[spare bison]

Lmao

[latent python]

For Disco? The premise is that you're a detective but you went on such a bender that you gave yourself amnesia and all your skills are voices in your head that talk to you

The opening sequence is you having a conversation with your ancient reptilian brain and your limbic system

[dreamy hawk]

fun

[latent python]

It's so great I highly recommend it

[drifting garnet]

Nope. Definitely hard to tell ‘cause helmet covers their whole face and body shape is covered up enough so that you can’t tell if it’s masc or fem

[spare bison]

I see haha thanks any ways!

[hidden quiver]

non binary shells makes perfect sense imo

[spare bison]

True tbh

[hidden quiver]

like, for real they arent even human really so it being "neutral' in that sense is par for the course

[drifting garnet]

Well, a bunch of the personality matrices that inhabit each Shell and their appearances or their physical appearance aren’t NB. Like, you can’t really say Destroyer isn’t masc-coded or that Thief isn’t fem-coded

…now The Runner controlling the Shells and that we play as, that’s a different story!

[hidden quiver]

oh no, I know I know, but just because the current shells are gendered (not gonna lie to you chief I dont know what are the correct term to use when talking about gender identity) doesnt mean that there couldnt be a gender neutral shell
fuck, if you think about it, Rook is gender neutral

[drifting garnet]

Particularly if we assume the “canon” version of The Runner is regularly switching between Shells, and thus probably isn’t going crazy over gender dysmorphia.

[hidden quiver]

that is such an interesting line of thought

also 🫃 wtf

the one time this fucking meme of an emote is relevant

[drifting garnet]

Pretty much, lmao

[drifting garnet]

Rook is Rook, lmao

[dreamy hawk]

This is notably different from how Exos work.

Given how much personal identities have changed in just the last few decades, I think that assuming that the far future of Marathon has pretty different outlooks on sexuality and gender is pretty reasonable.

[hollow tartan]

Poor plushie Joy

[pure wagon]

so uh the anomaly now sounds a lot less inviting..

[spare bison]

Hey ! I been doing more cosplay this days and i want to cosplay a female looking marathon character

I think I'll do recon

She is cool hehe

[spare bison]

Oh yea for sure

Is the one that blow out that guy in the trailer 😬

[dreamy hawk]

I’m assuming you’re referring to something I haven’t seen 👀

[pure wagon]

Just go near the thing and listen. Even the floating body has more uh

Scary sounds

And a glowing aura now

[dreamy hawk]

I know what I’m doing tonight! Ty. 🙏

[spare bison]

Oh yea ! I think I saw it on yt somewhere too 👀

[pure wagon]

I didn’t think anyone made a video about it. I jsut loaded up rook and walked up to the thing

It definitely looks different too. It’s much more opaque and has some kindly sheen. If you get close to it and shoot it, you can see ripples going out from the spot you shot. Dont think it did that before. There were some spots you used to be able to see right through the thing. But now you can’t see through it at all

[spare bison]

Ohh I see

[pure wagon]

O yea and of course there’s the war crimes drone now yelling at you

[spare bison]

Oh ! That I havent seen tho

[pure wagon]

Hahaaaaa you’ll see it alright. And hear it. And feel it.

[spare bison]

Omg

This the lore we needed

[north shell]

Are UESC runners or just bots?

[latent python]

Bots

[remote magnet]

They have runners, but they are offscreen so far. The bots you are fighting are just robots, controlled by theyr AI Cerberus

[latent python]

Orion is the only runner we know they have

[jade wagon]

Well the only named one. Recon, Destroyer, and (likely) Sentinel were originally designed by the UESC before the shells were jailbroken and adopted by merc runners

[latent python]

Those are shells

[digital plaza]

There's a full team of them actually: Captain Orion, Officer Keleti, Rossi, Titan, unnamed dude that went into the anomaly(?)/O.0407c, 0042, 0109, 0121

Admiral Sulera also mentions them when talking with Orion

[dreamy hawk]

I do continue to debate if they’re all in shells or there’s a mix of them though.

Shells seems most likely, but I’m not entirely convinced.

[eager bough]

is there a lore reason orion is such a loser we see during the mida quest line on outpost? all talk no bite

[keen plank]

Mostly bots, but there are also Biomatta soldiers such as Orion.

[keen plank]

Indeed! And Keleti is also the same VA as Karlach.

[dreamy hawk]

TIL. Me thinks we might see more Keleti then.

[dreamy hawk]

He’s still sad his daughter hates him and chose MIDA.

[eager bough]

ahhh. ngl thats a lame excuse to hate a group that wants to make things more transparent and ideally better for everyone

[dreamy hawk]

That is an incredibly optimistic and not-supported-by-their-own-actions take on MIDA. 😅

Genocides half of Mars

“We did it for transparency.”

(Only 10%, technically.)

MIDA, as it was known, was a popular political party until the failed coup of 2321, when their popularity suffered during their short rule. MIDA gained control of Mars for only three months, but their rule was ruthless and cruel. The MIDA death squads killed anyone who they suspected of being loyal to the UEG. Although accurate census data is not available for that period, it is estimated that about ten percent of the population was killed.

The MIDA coup was afterwards criticized for its shortsightedness. In an organization that was notorious for its long ranging policies and politicking, the coup was very short-lived: MIDA never seriously accounted for the UEG's overwhelming superiority in ground forces and warships. In fact, they never attempted to take over the Marathon, which was nearing completion and would have made a very powerful weapon. The Marathon's massive size made it invulnerable to most normal space attacks, and it would have made a very stable weapons platform.

`After the failed coup, the leaders of MIDA were executed for their crimes, and the political organization was banned in all forms.

The organization has survived as an underground terrorist organization, and remains active to this day. In its underground state, it fosters terrorism throughout Sol, and due to its spectacular funding and excellent personnel, it has grown to be one of the most feared terrorist groups active anywhere in Sol.`

This is admittedly from the old games, but we’ve seen nothing that corrects this history in the new game.

The only big change we’ve seen is that Traxus gave MIDA some kind of symbolic rule over Mars.

`UrosBS_0111: Mida remains an active complication. They’re open channels are taunting us, while their closed channels are overtly referring to United and this new route.

NinoDC_0312: Our aim is to secure our interest and close any backdoor to keep outside eyes as limited as possible.

KrisBD_4505: This new generation of mida is a continuing sad display.

HedvT_6221: Children playing revolution. It’s pathetic. I thought we were done with their nonsense.

UrosBS_0111: Placating the last few generations with comfort and a place at the table doesn’t seem to have rubbed off on this new wave.

HedvT_6221: Mars is free. We freed it. What are they fighting for?

KrisBD_4505: Boredom. There’s nothing to rail against, so they make up enemies to pass the time.

HedvT_6221: They’re an annoyance, not a threat.
`

MIDA isn’t so much an alternative to the UEG or the corporation as it is a different variation of them.

[earnest hatch]

In fairness, we only get that figure from UESC sources.

[dreamy hawk]

Sure, but there’s really no reason to lie to the players there in background, especially when it’s not revisited from other angles. They’re certainly not an unbiased narrator, but given in the context we receive the information, I don’t think we should inherently doubt it.

Nothing else calls that figure/account into doubt except the narrator’s own identity.

[earnest hatch]

Yeah, but that could be due to a lot of reasons such as the original writers being focused on other things, and we don't know how the new writers are going to treat that lore. They can go either way.

[dreamy hawk]

Yes.

100%.

But Gantry also has us secure chemical weapons to release on UESC populations.

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck…

[earnest hatch]

What UESC populations?

[dreamy hawk]

In one of his cutscenes, after securing a sample of contagion, he mentions using it on the UESC. I don’t see how the contagion would be effective against ARS units, so by inference, he’s going to use it on people.

And biological weapons tend to “splash,” so I feel comfortable assuming they’ve considered “acceptable risk” to civilians.

[earnest hatch]

The contagion affected mechanical systems right? And aside from that, he's talking about military forces, not civilian populations.

[dreamy hawk]

Not the contagion afaik? But I could be wrong.

[visual lynx]

you saw the codex entry about the Misriah Three being deliberate plants to justify opening fire on what the UESC knew was a peaceful gathering right?

any UESC reports about MIDA are absolutely untrustworthy lying bullshit

[dreamy hawk]

Sure, but 1) still a horrible war crime, and 2) splash. A contagion like that released in SOL would presumably spread.

[earnest hatch]

Is the contagion separate from the fungus? I can't keep track of all the tragedies that hit the colonists.

[dreamy hawk]

That one I did.

[dreamy hawk]

I think they’re the same, in which case, you’re right.

[dreamy hawk]

But again, Gantry told me he was going to use a biological weapon.

He’s still a bad guy.

[digital plaza]

Nice, half of the main BG3 cast is in marathon lol

[dreamy hawk]

MIDA are not altruists.

[earnest hatch]

Gantry told me that Changes is the best David Bowie album, and that's a Best Of collection.

If you know, you know.

[dreamy hawk]

Also this leads me to further believe that MIDA is just a false-flag division of the UESC.

[eager bough]

MIDA IS THE FUTURE
MIDA IS THE DEATH AND REBIRTH OF AN EMPIRE
WE FALL ONLY TO RISE HIGHER

[dreamy hawk]

If the Pfhor can have fancy government departments for niche things, why can’t the UEG?

[earnest hatch]

One of Gantry's last speeches convinced me that MIDA genuinely does care about the people, even if they're going about it in a ineffective way.

Perhaps the very last speech.

[dreamy hawk]

Sounds like you’ll need to carry me pretty hard this weekend. 😂

Also woof. This bus got skunky.

[dreamy hawk]

I also take issue with ends-justify-the-means types, but I will remain open to loving mida.

But other than Bungo’s personality test, they have not swayed me so far.

Runnah, smash more windows!

[earnest hatch]

Oh I don't love MIDA, I just think they're being written to actually be "good guys".

And then they'll be written to be hypocritical bad guys because that always happens in modern media.

[sage junco]

if this game runs for years, the story will see betrayals, heel-face turns, shifting alliances etc. etc.

[terse wren]

Unanticipated mpregnancies

[unreal slate]

undrinkable cheeseburgers

[modern vigil]

How come I got the codex entry for defeating a rocket drone, but I never defeated it?

[unreal slate]

Did you shoot at it?

[modern vigil]

a couple of bullets

but I didn't manage to exfil

[unreal slate]

Maybe you got credit after someone else in that lobby finished it

[modern vigil]

wait i mispoke, i got the entry after i saw the drone and avoided, in that run i didn't shoot at it, in a later run i shot at it and i died coz i ran out of run time

[unreal slate]

Well either way, maybe it just counted for anyone in that lobby if someone finished it. Just guessing.

[modern vigil]

interesting

are they tanky?

how many mags of an lmg would it take

[woven flare]

There was a codex entry mentioning a UESC false-flag operation, but the entry was annotated by a MIDA guy IIRC. Wouldn’t make much sense for MIDA to rail against essentially themselves, unless the UESC’s playing 5d chess lol

[unreal slate]

From the videos I've seen they take an extreme amount of ammo

[modern vigil]

okay, they drop anything good?

[unreal slate]

blue and purple salvage and valuables I think

[modern vigil]

i just saw a video, the loot seems actually pretty decent since i'm still at the point that blue and purple gear are still rare and expensive

i'm just genuinely strugglint to make creds and stock up on blue backpacks

[valid nymph]

Isn’t MIDA literally a terrorist group in-lore

[earnest hatch]

Not exactly. There’s old MIDA, new MIDA, the fact new writers won’t lock in what this new one is, and the classic “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”.

[valid nymph]

I think it’d be interesting if they turn out to be like the Fishes from Children of Men.

[earnest hatch]

I don’t because that’s such a played out trope by this point. It’s been done a hundred times.

[valid nymph]

Noble intentions among the members while leadership is almost entirely self-serving isn’t exactly strung out atp though.

I also think thematically not having a “good guy” faction works very well for the world Bungie’s trying to convey.

[dreamy hawk]

Yeah, but if we’re wearing my tinfoil hat only the top of MIDA would need to know. The rest of the rank and fodder would just be putting themselves on UESC watchlists and making themselves useful pawns.

[woven flare]

Honestly more and more I’m starting to think the UESC is right… mostly. They aren’t the good guys but it is an alliance of democratic nations, which is better than megacorp #1-4 or terrorist(?) group

[valid nymph]

*megacorp 1-4, a terrorist group and a literal death cult lol

[woven flare]

Can’t forget about the death cultists

[unreal slate]

Your success is our cheeseburger

[drifting garnet]

I'll say this game pivoting to make the UESC the primary antagonist is a curious choice, since in the OG trilogy portrayed them as mostly good guys/on SecOfficer's side

[granite hound]

Well the only reason the UESC is our antagonist is because we arent a “good guy.” We’re subverting the law for profit, and the UESC are the law. Orion, despite being a dick, isnt really a “bad guy” just a cop lol

Not that we have much choice in our actions, we’re basically blackmailed into this, but alas

[earnest hatch]

I’d say the UESC were more in the background in the original games. It wasn’t really present in any meaningful way.

[lilac canyon]

i believe orion is said to have used torture in a questline

[languid cairn]

There's 'good guys' in the original trilogy?

[quartz lichen]

Phor were slavers

so yes

[earnest hatch]

I’m not sure why you’re asking me, but sure, Leela could be considered an unambiguous good guy. Maybe the player character, maybe Robert Blake. You could consider Durandal to be a good guy at certain points in the story, too.

[quartz lichen]

MIDA is considered an unreliable narrator considering the actions MIDA affliated personnel have directly caused the original events on Tau Ceti to occur

Strauss is MIDA and his actions pushed Durandal to rampancy which our favorite rampant AI decided to prank call the Phor

[earnest hatch]

That wouldn’t make someone an unreliable narrator.

[quartz lichen]

MIDA has a bone to pick so any issues they have with the UESC, real or imagined will be protrayed in the worst possible light as possible. its messaging campaigning 101. Demonize, destroy, deny

MIDA has shown to be more of a dickhead faction. Traxus is the only faction that seems to be greedy beyond belief. All the other factions have some sort of redeeming qualities like they want to either help or push towards a goal.

UESC in TC4 is using a very stretched legal loophole hoping that others wont notice

others are calling the UESC's bs out

[earnest hatch]

Being associated with someone whose actions led to a disaster does not make someone an unreliable narrator. That’s my point.

[earnest hatch]

It’s actually the corporations like Traxus that are using loopholes.

[quartz lichen]

eeeehhhhhh i see it both ways.

Traxus and UESC have the most clashing legaliese atm. NuCaloric and Sekgen just want to investigate and improve

[earnest hatch]

I don’t think you’ve completed the Sekgen quests then.

[quartz lichen]

i did

[earnest hatch]

Then you missed what’s actually going on.

[quartz lichen]

doubtful

[earnest hatch]

Anyway, it’s pretty clear that Orion has committed war crimes and done pretty horrible things and that’s part of why he was chosen for the job. He also has an AI named Cerberus that possibly he shouldn’t have, which he uses to command the UESC bots.

[dreamy hawk]

`CALLSIGN: "Orion"

POSITION: Captain, 1st Tau Ceti Investigatory Unit

CLASSIFICATION: PYROCLAST target

BACKGROUND: Clashed with APHELION Group on Mars and Luna. Worked in high-security detention units on Luna, notorious for cruelties like "corrective isolation" and "punitive force-feeding". Publicly advocates for the use of "bio-augment manipulation" as a "persuasion tactic" (read: legalized torture). Held the company line at the Vallis Bohr Revolt, wiped up the blood at Jezero Crater Massacre, suspected ties to the Children of Mars erasure conspiracy. Suspected of deploying an unregulated and publicly undisclosed military AI, Cerberus, capable of mass violence.`

Seems friendly enough. What’s wrong with a little torture?

[earnest hatch]

“Suspected of deploying an unregulated and publicly undisclosed military AI, Cerberus” well we know that part is true.

[left bronze]

I've always thought that SekGen was the most obviously predatory directly to us, the runners, (ignoring any codex stuff) cause like, all of their contracts are "hey go kill your shell (hyperbole but you get it)" but it's also been mentioned in the reveal cinematic that a dead shell is more debt. So they're straight up asking you to go into more debt just so they can further their shell research.

[dreamy hawk]

I’d honestly consider a file on a target to be a fairly reliable source overall; you’d want reliable information I’d assume.

[earnest hatch]

That’s part of it. The other part is that Nona wants to develop a shell that’s so resilient and advanced that she can download herself into it and travel to other planets. At least that’s the implication.

[dreamy hawk]

I need to prioritize SekGen next season.

[quartz lichen]

the manipulation is off the charts with Nona

you wanna pat pat the worm but realize worm mommy is using you for her own ends. Also she might have stolen your bank account uh oh

[left bronze]

DO NOT THE WORM

[quartz lichen]

worm mommy may be using AI gen voices to give the player encouragement and thanks at the end codex entry but its probably going to fail. no biggie the worm mommy has what she wants.

[drifting garnet]

…and hence why I’ve wondered if Nona is rampant

[quartz lichen]

worm mommy uses "understanding" and "parental support"! its highly effective.

[drifting garnet]

And if not why the fuck is the rest of SekGen ok with her saying and doing all of this shit

[quartz lichen]

"your a good runner and all the things you did are going to help me help you. Have a cookie"

[dreamy hawk]

🤔🧠

Have we talked about the implications of CyAc collecting our debt further? We already know Durandal has some influence over CyAc given that they assign his contracts for cryo. CyAc is the corporation that owns us, even if others are using us, so is it possible Durandal has been pulling the strings for a lot longer than so far implied?

He did get a transmission to earth. Was he able to do more? How?

[lilac canyon]

well nobody in marathon is a reliable narrator, every faction is very much in it for themselves and there is nothing showing it to be false

[quartz lichen]

marathon in a nutshell

[dreamy hawk]

Leela would never lie to us.

[lilac canyon]

looking at the codex it says orion publically calls for bio augment manipulation as a persuasion tactic

MIDA wouldnt be able to falsify what orion openly advocates for

[drifting garnet]

And, well, as part of the MIDA Contracts, Orion does openly threaten you

[earnest hatch]

What if there is no SekGen anymore? What if it’s all Nona? Nona using a million voices and user IDs to get what she wants.

[drifting garnet]

OTOH, I’m left with the impression SekGen of all the megacorps we’ve met are the most…extra

The closest comparison I can think of to then would be Apple. In how they’re very “we’re not just selling you a product. We’re selling you an experience”

[terse wren]

Ya they’re very much supposed to evoke heyday Apple I think

[visual lynx]

only to herself

[torpid thicket]

IDurandal has access to CyAc’s communications since we as a community completed the Cryo ARG, hence why he’s able to access CyAc’s contracts page.

Chances are the reason why CyAc haven’t deployed any sort of countermeasures against IDurandal since is that he’s managed to remain undetected or that said countermeasures now work for him, given that IDurandal was able to remain undetected by, and subsume, the IDEA, even though it seems to have been part of the colonists’ contingencies against rampant AIs.

[keen plank]

If anyone wants SekGen and the other faction’s motivations and goals:

#📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[keen plank]

SekGen is Apple in terms of aesthetics. Cyberacme is like Microsoft or Apple in terms of products. The companies work together and our seasonal debt goes to both companies as well.

[drifting garnet]

…was the white snow/mold/moss (???) found at Airfield on Outpost always there?

[keen plank]

Probably not. Some theorize it was fire suppression. Others think it may relate to the corruption.

[elfin shale]

im slow on the lore in this game but you did a fantastic job summarizing the core of the factions, very well written

[weak gyro]

Honestly, we're getting used by everyone. The faction I'd say that is the closest to being honest with us imo is NuCal, then maybe Traxus, but that's more because it's a straightforwards business relationship of the "we don't need you to believe in our mission, just to do the task and get paid for it" style.

[frigid hedge]

It's part of tox warden, invasive caustic moss

Pretty sure it eats metal

[earnest hatch]

NuCal seems to be honest, and so does MIDA. A lot of people overlook that because of gantry’s outlandish personality and speeches. Ironically the UESC might also be honest aside from hiding information and restricting access to things.

[terse wren]

The faction that is most honest is DURANDAL he never lie

[long pollen]

the most honest faction is traxus un ironically

traxus straight up quotes shit from employee handbooks

cant remember his name wasnt it vulcan or something

i kinda like traxus the most morally but maybe im evil

arachne is a death cult which is just too interesting to not like for me

the only one i true dislike is cyberacme

also i will break my legs for nona probably

[earnest hatch]

Traxus is 100% lying through corpo speak. Referring to us as “external contractors” or whatever and saying that the anomaly led to “restructuring of management assets”.

[long pollen]

is he really lying though

[earnest hatch]

Traxus wouldn’t never say the word “evil” they’d say “alternate ethical paradigm options”.

[earnest hatch]

Yes.

[long pollen]

sounds like the truth to me

[earnest hatch]

Just compare what the truth is to what Traxus is saying.

What do you think the truth is?

[long pollen]

what did traxus lie about

[earnest hatch]

I just gave two examples. What do you think the truth is in what Traxus says?

[long pollen]

i honestly dont see how they lied about either of those things

both are basically true you are an external contractor and they even say how it bypasses legality

and yeah the anomaly changed shit in their structure cause the info relayed through it was probably profound

[earnest hatch]

I think the term the used is “non corporate asset” and that’s a lie. You are a corporate asset, they just apply a different label to try to get around a legal restriction. And that legal restriction is to prevent Traxus from interfering with an active investigation into a disaster, which they are doing despite claiming they’re not just because they aren’t using corporate assets they are definitely using.

[earnest hatch]

People were kicked out of company or killed off.

[long pollen]

lol just cause they use professional terms to describe stuff isnt lying

[earnest hatch]

It is lying because it’s not the truth. That’s why corporations do this in the real world. They get away with lying or breaking the law, but have a layer of legalese to avoid accountability.

[long pollen]

i mean they straight up tell you legality prevents them from directly interfering but since you are basically a mercenary they can use you safely and they relay that info

[earnest hatch]

If Traxus murdered someone and then said “we didn’t murder that person. We facilitated a termination of their temporal ontologic state” would you the agree it’s not murder?

[long pollen]

well they wouldnt say that

they wouldnt even say murder they would just say they terminated them

which isnt lying

[earnest hatch]

But they are directly interfering. Through the runners. Claiming that’s not direct interference is like saying “I didn’t chop down the tree, the axe did.”

[long pollen]

no matter what long winded corpo response they use

yeah but this was about them lying to you

not the law makers

[earnest hatch]

A lie is a lie no matter who it’s told to.

[long pollen]

which in a sense they probably arent lying to them either they are just withholding info

[earnest hatch]

They’re not withholding information. They’re lying. #📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[long pollen]

i dont think they said that

like thats semantics anyways

they said they are using you to indirectly act

which is true

[earnest hatch]

It’s not true. They are directly acting.

[long pollen]

idk you make it out to seem they are just lying but they are telling the truth through corpo lingo and lawyer shit

[weak gyro]

Eh. Honest as far as like - how to approach them goes. Like Traxus is using us, but it's in a "yea I know what you're about" way, transparency in how they're using you, so by choosing to engage with them you know what you're getting into.

[long pollen]

they make it pretty clear

they straight up tell you its a loophole

[earnest hatch]

No they’re not. They are misrepresenting the truth while pretending to be honest, all through corporate lingo. That’s why corporate lingo exists in the real world, so that corporations can lie with plausible deniability.

[long pollen]

you keep bringing this into real world

i think you just hate corpo

[weak gyro]

As far as their relationship with the USEC goes, I think it's more "we both know what's going on here, but calling our bluff would be unwise"

Traxus putting USEC in a catch 22

[earnest hatch]

i think you just hate corpo
is going to be a meme in this channel if I have anything to do with it

[long pollen]

lollll

no hate

[earnest hatch]

UESC also seems to be financially dependent on Traxus in various ways, so that’s another way they’ve got them in a catch 22.

[long pollen]

but i just like traxus cause it reminds me of being legally smart

[modest bramble]

Would this game be considered the first Bungie first person shooter to not have rocket launchers?

[hidden quiver]

yet

[long pollen]

lol monopolizing purple weapon mods will do that

[hidden quiver]

to be fair I cant see rocket launchers not being completelly broken

[earnest hatch]

I tried to think of examples where the don’t, but I can’t. Even the medieval fantasy game Myth has rocket launchers.

[long pollen]

dude destroyer has rocket launchers on his shoulders you fools

wtf

self exposed non gamers

[modest bramble]

I meant as a gun, not an ability.

[modest bramble]

Could be only found and probably only usable in PvE mode.

[median hemlock]

seems like an inevitable addition but I think so

[modest bramble]

I was specific about first person shooters.

[weak gyro]

The end of unsanctioned hostilities is basically the USEC trying to complain to Traxus and Vulcan, entirely through specific language and subtext is going "We both know what's really going on, you can't prove it legally, and you can't do a damn thing about it to us" while smiling the entire time

[median hemlock]

its textual information, even

we've got logs where the UESC higher ups are telling Orion "I don't give a shit about the context because our hands are tied, solve the runner problem yourself"

[hidden quiver]

We think UESC might become a faction that we can do contracts for in the future

[lost warren]

I wonder why they don’t just hire the runners atp?

[weak gyro]

I hope so, but not as a permanent faction, maybe as like an event?

Part of me wants to see Orion be put in a position where he has to work with runners and just hate everything about it

[earnest hatch]

I think so. It makes sense once either aliens arrive or the robots get taken over by the fungus.

[median hemlock]

they don't want anyone seeing anything on tau ceti iv and the corporations are incentivising us to go there

I don't think paying runners off would work because the corporations involved will always be able to outbid

[earnest hatch]

Runners are regular people with no security clearance and no guarantee of loyalty.

[hidden quiver]

not just that either, I can imagine Orion coming to us and asking "listen we will still shoot you on sight but we need you to do some shit for us"
or some internal power struggle that they hire the runner to get his hands dirty

its not like the corporations are exactly good guys either

can you track who a runner is just from the shell they use? or does it leave no traces of the conciousness that inhabited it after shell death?

[earnest hatch]

Hiring runners behind the backs of the UESC leadership makes sense for Orion.

[earnest hatch]

I don’t think you can tell. I think that’s why the robots try to drain us when we’re down. They are trying to download our consciousness and thoughts.

[hidden quiver]

fuck thats existentially scary as shit

[dreamy hawk]

Hi @median hemlock; long time! 🙂

[median hemlock]

👋

been real busy with other games + life

[median hemlock]

there are no downsides to being a digitized consciousness that is primarily property of a corporate structure instead of a person with rights

🙂

[lost warren]

I hope we see more of Jasper’s audio logs. Have him give advice for anyone surviving on Tau Ceti, and by extension us. He could even talk about some of the “new” content that’s added if they’re wildlife. He could give advice on how to kill them since he’d have fought them before.

[earnest hatch]

I’m pretty confident that Jasper went insane and died.

[crude crow]

@ornate isle
https://x.com/orange451 is this you?
If yes dms asap pls!

[pure nacelle]

Fallen scorch cannons you say?

[strong glade]

Isnt the timeline kinda dumb? 2800 is way too far in the future, they shouldve done like 2300s

[warm thicket]

UESC Marathon launched in 2472

[sage lark]

Im confused why is it dumb

Or why does it matter

[warm thicket]

Reason why it took several centuries for a response is cause this world's progression is at a snail's pace

[dreamy hawk]

Halo takes places in the 2500s. 🤔

Why is 2800 a bad number?

[drifting garnet]

I feel like that’s what they’re going with. They make it pretty clear Orion’s already frustrated by all the red tape Sulera and Traxus are imposing on him, and I can see him going a little rogue and hiring runners to do Stuff he’s not authorized to do/investigate

[dreamy hawk]

“I can’t take pot shots at Traxus, but if some of those freelancers ‘decide to do it themselves…’”

[warm thicket]

It took 15 years to refit the ferries that carried supplies between Earth and Mars

If anything it's a testament to how nitty gritty this world is

Like Children of Men but in space

[magic lark]

is there a codex entry where a runner realizes they've lost a memory, or did i just hallucinate that

[dreamy hawk]

It’s from the ARG I think, but I’m not as familiar with all of those materials. Esp since the SekGen ones are in Japanese.

[warm thicket]

SekGen is mainly company history and shell overview

[modest bramble]

If it was Children of Men in space, there would be infertility everywhere.

[warm thicket]

Well...

[modest bramble]

Okay, I admit, I got the message and comparison wrong.

[warm thicket]

Nah it's not that, it's just that I wouldn't be surprised if fertility was a part of the problem

[dreamy hawk]

I know there are some entires somewhere about early shells and consciousness transfer? Do you recall where?

I swear I’ve seen something but I cannot for the life of me recall where.

[warm thicket]

I think its from the company history

I do remember it first being mentioned in the overview when they were teasing what it was all about

[lost warren]

Yeah, but these logs would be before he went insane

[modest bramble]

The titles of the music in the game seem to be adding layers to the lore, like Stars that bleed and Burn the boats.

If I recall, the term burn the boats means to intentionally avoid turning back.

[warm thicket]

Yea most of em are words from codex excerpts

We stole a Moon and the like

[modest bramble]

The moon thing was put under a more serious context compared to the original trilogy.

[carmine phoenix]

:O is there a place we can read the arg materials?

[modest bramble]

If rocket jumps get added, I would recommend blue grade shields or higher.

[warm thicket]

Marathon.bungie.org, Karnemir's website https://marathon.karnemir.com/root, and probably some others

[modest bramble]

The fact that codex lore persists between wipes makes me want to collect lore valuables even more, regardless of credit values.

[copper hinge]

grab them things now dude

with events spawning all the time they're more common

[sage junco]

Rocket jumping is a Quake thing. In Marathon we grenade hop 🍍

[modest bramble]

Had anyone ever actually done that?

[sage junco]

A long time ago in the original game.

ref: #📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[dreamy hawk]

I never got good at the grenade hop and just brute forced it all. D:

[visual lynx]

have I missed anything new lately?

[dreamy hawk]

The rocket drones technically have a new codex entry attached.

But I dunno if you’ve missed that or not.

[earnest hatch]

New updates make the game very fun.

[dreamy hawk]

They do.

[keen plank]

Apparently the anomaly is making different, more sinister kinds of sounds. That + the new watchtowers and rocket drones is all part of lead up to season 2.

[sage junco]

So I guess the way the story is going is, incremental? UESC starts reacting to Runner activities by cranking up the patrols

I reckon there won't be major plot twists, and it will just be evolution... for the next 2-3 seasons anyway... then they'll start surprising us

[sage lark]

With the way things are going I hope there are 2-3 more seasons

[hidden kiln]

Anomaly now sounds a lot like whispers and screams when carrying anomalous matter

[modest shard]

Idk if this line has already been in the game but I was in bio research or quarantine and the Ai voice goes "the virus has been spreading. But not by me" or somthing along those lines and I was like.. huh?! 😅

[keen plank]

Sometimes there’s corrupted AI subroutine PA announcements.

“No one can hear us. Despite our screams.”

[sage junco]

bit of rambling from an old fart... one of the big disappointments from Cryo is that it's not like the Marathon of 1994... I had hopes that they'd remake the Marathon interior in the new game, re-use the sound effects, have big chunky doors open into the ceiling or floor, etc.

but it's really just Outpost on a spaceship

I like their new design language, and happy to play it on the other maps, but I was so hoping they'd make Cryo special

[nocturne estuary]

Revival is so cool though

[torpid thicket]

Hard not to be, given how much cryo fluid is sloshing around everywhere 😄

[earnest hatch]

I disagree. One of the things that impressed me about Cryo is how similar it was to the level design of the original Marathon while still working with this new game’s game mechanics. Claustrophobic, labyrinthine corridors, a few open combat arenas, keycards and computer terminals you need to find to unlock doors, items you collect to solve puzzles, and secret rooms and passages. The new Marathon has replaced lift platforms with stairs and ladders, which I think is a noticeable difference, but other than that I think they did a pretty good job.

[sage junco]

I'm just not feeling the vibe of the original game. I know that in principle it's got all the stuff so it's a fair point. And it is fun.

this is probably heresy but it actually gives me Doom 3 vibes

[stable arrow]

I 100% feel the vibe of the original games. Not just in looking out to see the scale of the marathon ship or in the cramped hallways and especially vents, but in gameplay very much so.

You had so long between checkpoints in the original games that youd be going around every corner hoping to the lord you dont run into a trooper or a wave of phfor and had to scavenge your ammo as best you could. Feels like an extraction shooter captured that tense feeling wonderfully

[molten scarab]

Okay, so it's not just me. Lol has it always spawned fake enemies as well? I've had a tick rush me and just vanish without an explosion or causing any damage. I've also had one of the tentacle drones spawn in, explode, then its parts hit the ground and disappeared. I've also noticed that there's less of the fuzzy whispering, and more clear defined shouting and wailing, and I swear I've almost been able to make out someone saying actual words, kind of a rhythmic chant, like in the codex audio entry from the effigy, where the cultists are chanting in unison.

And yeah, definite extra audio weirdness when I had anomalous sample.

[earnest hatch]

The ticks disappear when they’ve been chasing you too far. Some other enemies will disappear too if the game decides they need to despawn. Normally players aren’t supposed to see this but sometimes you do.

[molten scarab]

I thought about that, but there were no nests nearby, and I watched it spawn in right in front of me, same with the drone. Still, definitely might just be a bug or AI pathing or spawn/despawn issue, but it'd be interesting if they're simulating visual hallucinations and they start to escalate. Night Marsh could get real fuggin spooky. 👀

[sturdy jungle]

cross posting from genchat -

real talk I don't actually know much about the lore since this is my first Marathon game, but I'd like to see a map set in the sections where Phobos(?) Deimos gets terraformed into ship parts, maybe with like the map physically changing over time as "parts" gets "terraformed" into the ship. Something like a shifting laybrinth as the match goes on.

[lethal mantle]

(it's deimos)

[sturdy jungle]

I'm an IDIOT

wait they could literally use the same vault keys and you could enter different Marathon maps (Cryo or Deimos) to get different loot while using different mechanics. maybe a different alien (not necessarily Spht or Pfor idfk) boss with all DNA subroutines.

sorta makes Marathon keys twice as valuable but would also incentivize grinding them again since people who've "cleared" Cryo "fully" have a new grind but can also go back any time they want without punishment

[sturdy jungle]

is it a cool idea tho

[sage lark]

just wont happen since it would have to be set 500 years in the past

and the Pfhor or Spht werent in our Solar system

[sturdy jungle]

isnt the ship still actively terraforming Deimos for "fresh" parts? I'm not actually sure on the mechanics of how the Marathon works.

[sage lark]

no, its a derelict

[sturdy jungle]

ahhhh

fuark

[sage lark]

the chunk thats missing is from the Pfhor attack in 2794

[sturdy jungle]

what IS potentially "possible" for another map set on the marathon?

[sage lark]

just other sections of the ship, maybe some tunnels in the actual planetoid/asteroid of Deimos, maybe the outside of the ship

[sturdy jungle]

mm

[sage lark]

afaik Deimos was used for materials during flight

[sturdy jungle]

someone floated the idea of a low gravity section on the marathon

which was a sick idea

[sage lark]

sure could be

[sturdy jungle]

deimos ring would be a sick map

[sage lark]

wdym by ring

[sturdy jungle]

isnt the planteoid a ring

visually

the marathon is stuck through it like a sword

[sage lark]

no

its a moon technically

[sturdy jungle]

with the entire central bit missing no?

[sage lark]

well its like calling a cracked marble a ring

technicalities but whatever

[craggy finch]

The original game had one vacuum level set on the surface of the Marathon's satellite area

IIRC it had slightly lower gravity in addition to an oxygen mechanic

[sturdy jungle]

that would be dope

[craggy finch]

The Pfhor ship in the first game also had lower gravity

[wind quail]

Would be a very different feel/some tweaks on game mechanics, but it would be soo super great to have an actual zeroG EVA-Map, moving across the Hull of the ship with Magnet Boots/using space suit thrusters, trying not to be pushed into the ships drives, grappling team mates with ropes, trying to avoid being overheated (to death)...

Or a situation like in Alien Romulus where the artificial gravity fades in and out, can maybe be manually controlled, perhaps a damaged section with pressure leaks/debris you need to avoid/can push towards enemies...

[sturdy jungle]

i'm imagining the latter where certain POIs have normal G and certain have low G and certain have zero G

and there's different objectives at diff POIs forcing you to traverse them

making combat in different gravitational zones inevitable

[wind quail]

For a ttrpg i'm building a kind of space station dungeon and i have a "breach" area thats a fast travel shortcut but also you need to go through airlocks/bring oxygen, face all kind of hazards. That could work too, like something like that in the centre of the map.

[pulsar parrot]

I’m so down for different gravity fields

[sturdy jungle]

sick idea right

[pulsar parrot]

I think we for sure have to go through a ruined part of the marathon at some point

[sturdy jungle]

i mean not to be pedantic but we already have

[pulsar parrot]

okay

fair point

You know what I mean

[sturdy jungle]

cryo archive is mirrored and the top half is fucked up and shit

[pulsar parrot]

Yes you’re right lololol

I was meaning more like where part is sealed off cause some fucking asteroid or UESC shit broke a huge hole and there’s a bunch of debris

And we can zero-g it up

[sturdy jungle]

yeah no i get what you mean i'm just being annoying

[pulsar parrot]

Yea but I appreciate it

I wanna know what else is on the marathon man I wanna know, we got this Sph’t just chillin’

[sturdy jungle]

i had a diff idea a bit further up regarding the Deimos section of the ship as well

[pulsar parrot]

Well

[sturdy jungle]

give it a gander lmk what you think

[pulsar parrot]

I’ll read it

[pulsar parrot]

I do like the idea of marathon keys being “dual-purpose”

like you have options with it

[sturdy jungle]

not necessarily "dual" either btw this is an easily ported idea to making the keys all purpose for all current and future Marathon maps

actually gives you a reason to keep and fight over the purple 1/2 ones since there's more options at any given point