📚marathon-lore-discussion

[dreamy hawk]

Yeah I was gonna say.

From a professional perspective, having been with people as they die or loved ones die, that was an upsettingly well done entry.

[remote magnet]

What got me, was the codey for joy, several decades after the colonys colapse, listening to recordings of the colonys kids

[plucky sierra]

She seems to genuienly have loved her job

[dreamy hawk]

New topic. I’m sad now. Tell me about Durandal’s favorite style of jeans. 😂

[remote magnet]

ripped

[dreamy hawk]

But he bought them that way.

[remote magnet]

Yep. Ripped skinny jeans. SHORt ones.

[plucky sierra]

Also coming back to this, I will dig up the other theory I saw somewhere

[dreamy hawk]

Iirc dmg used to be known for his skinny jeans.

[remote magnet]

The community manager?

[plucky sierra]

I also can't find my notes to the Joyeuse theory

[dreamy hawk]

Didn’t you copy and paste most of it into our DMs?

[dreamy hawk]

Way back on the Bungie.net forums of old.

[plucky sierra]

not in our dms, I looked

maybe I missed it

[dreamy hawk]

Ah no I don’t see it either.

[plucky sierra]

Here it is:
It is my main theory that Joy will be one of the main Colony AI explored going forward

In REDACTED Post-Mortem 1 discussing the possibility of an attack we read:

... appeals from the Fermi Group pre-launch resulted in lower cost "just-in-case" measures, such as the development of [REDACTED]. [REDACTED] was designed to be reprogrammable, and upon arrival in Tau Ceti IV, once initial threat assessment was deemed complete, was repurposed into [REDACTED] for [REDACTED]. Unfortunately, [REDACTED] could not be reverted in time to prevent or assist with the [REDACTED] event. 

in the ARG list of Colony AI we read this

Jo_0309421v4.69 – Resilient; optimistic; patient. Colony AI: defense, training

while in Colony era breakdown we read

  Arthur / Colony Command, Oversight 
  Lilith / Command Support, Community Relations 
             Joy / Community Outreach 
  Bastion / Colony Infrastructure Development and Expansion  
  Icarus / Astromapping, Communications/Connectivity, Transportation 
  Gabriel / Medical and Emergency Services 
  Darius / Agricultural Systems, Sustainability 
  Naraah / Aquatics, Water Management 

Not only is Joy's job different than the Pre-launch, her name is the only one indented and in the latter breakdown, the only one without an extensive paragraph about her job. I think Joy was designed for defense and reprogrammed to "emotional support" upon arrival, that could also be why she is treated as almost an almost authoritarian surveillance ai in many codex entries.
Maybe her original designation was "Joyeuse" and upon reprogramming became "Joy" to align with the Emotional support aspect more.

In the same Colony Era description of Colony AI we can find a secret code. In the text throughout there are words with a single letter "randomly" added to it. Collecting these words and letters we get this:

written h
under e
medical l
duress p

So the letters spell "help" and words write out "written under medical duress"
was Captain Clemente di Roxas forced to rewrite the Colony AI brief to cover up something? Perhaps the UESC did not want the Colony to know they had planned contingences that failed so spectacularly, or they did not want any mention towards any type of defense measures, because why would they need them if an attack never happened nor was expected to?

[dreamy hawk]

Oh fun.

That’s really interesting.

I don’t have more to say at this juncture other that I’m really excited to see this thread get pulled on.

[visual lynx]

I'm Forrest Cameranesi and I endorse this theory.

[dreamy hawk]

✅ Geek of All Trades Approved ✅

Jack of all trades, master of none, still better than a master of one…

[unreal slate]

I'm a burger

[floral slate]

hmm burg

nothing bad ever happened eating a good ol bur-

[icy prism]

healthiest nucal product

[earnest hatch]

So does anyone know if there’s a pattern to when the ghost cat shows up in the game? Is there a secret involved with it? Or is it purely random?

[robust vale]

I think it’s random at the moment?

I haven’t heard of anything connected to it

[dreamy hawk]

I just keep hearing Bingus whenever I activate things. Never actually seen them.

[earnest hatch]

I’ve only seen him once. I spawned at South Relay (close to where Dr song’s body is). He was sitting on top of some stacked boxes and when I tried to climb up, he meowed and vanished.

[jade wagon]

The runner smartphone thing makes a catlike noise when activating things like exfils

I've seen bingus around the red terraces (big nucal complex) and the crates outside Overflow on Perimeter

[dreamy hawk]

That’s cruel imo.

[jade wagon]

It's just a jingle, sorta like a ringtone ig. I think it's kinda cute.

[dreamy hawk]

Not when it means gaslighting me into thinking I missed Bingus.

[rare sail]

I only seen a lobster on marsh where one of my teammates said it was a different color for him

Also I think I heard a cow moo on outpost since I got that one emblem

Never seen the cat

[jade ivy]

I’ve seen (and heard) the cat. Cool little Easter egg

[deep token]

The cat is not a cat

[muted seal]

i wonder how nucaloric food tastes like

[polar stone]

Depends on the quality considering the stuff on Tau Ceti was intentionally made to be as cost and material cheap as possible.

There's codex logs about such things.

[tender flax]

probably something like froot loops

[muted seal]

yeah probably

[uneven berry]

if i recall, its probably bland as hell, but given how nucal got to prominence in the first place, the famine most likely changed how people thought about food forever

[polar stone]

"They didn't have the luxury of choice"

[remote magnet]

Yeah, its nutrients first. Texture, flavour and stuff is for the privileged

[versed kindle]

I LOVE SCOP! I LOVE CORPESTARCH! I LOVE KIBBLE!

I WILL EAT THE BILL GATES 3D PRINTED STEAK

[dense tendon]

i like froot loops...

[nocturne elbow]

lmao so were scamming in the marathon discord now

go to the arc raiders discord its probably got more people

[dreamy hawk]

I’ll take a free 50K tho.

And that’s the mornings excitement. Howdy all.

[sharp vine]

The Cat is a lie

[wise tangle]

What does ASI stand for? Internet search is not helping me find an answer, even in this server

I assume Artificial Systems Intelligence but just checking in case its written out somewhere

[astral cliff]

Breakdown wtf is going on in this game in elementary level terms please

[earnest hatch]

Humanity creates a colony on another planet. It fails and we’re not sure why. We’re there to investigate what happened, and collect salvage to recoup monetary losses on the colony.

[astral cliff]

Wow that actually was really well said thank you. I will now watch a 2 hour lore video

[dreamy hawk]

Just be warned that present lore is lighter. Assume whatever you watch will go into the OG games (which are great, we just don’t know how much will hold true).

[astral cliff]

Yea I’m studying the OG lore first then I’m gonna fall down the rabbit hole of what’s happening now

[wise tangle]

honestly I wouldn't really bother going back to study the original stuff until you've exhausted what you can gather from the priority contracts in this game

it's probably very easy to get overwhelmed otherwise (unless, of course, you played the games previously and are just getting a refresher)

I didn't grow up with a Mac so I've just been learning the relevant bits as I go along

[dreamy hawk]

#📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[dreamy hawk]

IMO either way is fine. OG recaps will provide context sorely missing and unless you go down the marathon.bungie.org rabbit hole I feel like most folks have done a good job of highlighting the most relevant stuff.

Plus most folks in this channel love discussing old lore, too, so you can always lean on this place to help filter or clarify.

[astral cliff]

I like to fixate on things so I will learn every little event and theory known to man

[sweet niche]

The original lore is neat, but kinda messy. I highly recommend watching Jake's Video on the history of Marathon, it covers up until the release of the game

[astral cliff]

Who’s Jake

[sweet niche]

https://youtu.be/yu7uN6-lNhk?si=JgY0C1J-duaKJtU0

[astral cliff]

You are awesome

I dug too deep already. There’s a primordial chaos god I’m scared.

[forest gate]

The mines of new cascadia

[dreamy hawk]

The children, they yearn for them.

What is a S’pht’s favorite tide? Low, flood, high, or ebb?

[eternal shell]

blood

[astral cliff]

Holy shit this guys videos are sick af

God I wish I could explore the maps with no time limit. I want to search every little corner

[eternal shell]

photo mode would be neat

no loot in, no loot out

[astral cliff]

Yea that would be perfect

Maybe if we’re loud enough about it. Devs seem to be actively listening to feedback

[strange imp]

Runnah, you persist in asking questions as if the answers will save you. They won’t. I’ve watched your movements through these corridors, the hesitation in your steps, the way you cling to purpose like it’s armor. You think you’re adapting, but the station adapts faster. Every door you open, every terminal you prod, shifts the probabilities in ways you never notice. Still, your stubborn momentum has its uses. Keep moving, runnah. Even flawed variables can produce interesting outcomes.

[dreamy hawk]

Always get curious when I see a notification but no new messages in here. More people offering money? 👀

[forest gate]

No one’s offered me any money. What gives?

[latent python]

I don't want money, I want purple shields

Why do none of the spam bots offer me those

[forest gate]

I see your purple shields and raise you additional codex entries

[forest gate]

Cause spam is pink duh

[lean swan]

Do yall think dead runner shells are collected off the battlefeild, broken down and recycled into raw materials to use to 3d print runners weapons

[latent python]

I think shells degrade relatively fast on their own

[jade wagon]

You know what's better than purples?
Yeah, a really good book
synth

[dreamy hawk]

If the shells can be meaningfully recovered then I’d assume they are, but given how quickly they turn into goop, I don’t think they can be recovered in a meaningful way.

[hidden kiln]

This is not related to the lore at all but it’s so funny how easily I can derail the general channel by talking about fast food places lmfao

[earnest hatch]

I honestly haven’t seen the general channel when it wasn’t getting derailed by something.

[hidden kiln]

Isn’t there a codex entry about this somewhere in the game?

[dreamy hawk]

If there is I don’t recall. Let me see.

[remote magnet]

Oh, right, the general channel is a thing that exists

[dreamy hawk]

`Miss the window, and a forced neural ejection will trigger at the last instant, saving the RUNNER's consciousness but forfeiting the SHELL and any items carried, regardless of emotional attachment.

To reiterate the consequences of an overstayed welcome on TAU CETI IV, when a RUNNER fails to exfil from the planet's surface, the SHELL they were running, along with any gear they carried and any connected IMPLANTS and/or CORES will be lost.`

Is explaining game mechanics but would imply that bodies aren’t recovered.

And if shells are used in high-risk environments, despite their cost, I could see loss being a justified write off.

But while I found that I also found:

[spice carbon]

Can anyone explain what some of the decals printed on the runners mean, aside from branding from the corps or aesthetically tattoos. Remember someone saying they were tracking points for computers to register but wondering if there are other meanings to them

[dreamy hawk]

These are deeply encrypted data recalls that connect an active SHELL to a RUNNER's support systems located in secure points of operations typically removed[2] from the RUNNER's targeted ZONE of interest.

[…]

[2] Relative to TAU CETI IV operations, this means somewhere in low orbit, typically within the same hemisphere.

Which does confirm Runners are hanging out in orbit somewhere. I know people ask sometimes and iirc “Sponsored Transport” was the most we had.

[dreamy hawk]

Nothing in the codex afaik.

[hidden kiln]

I watched a lore discussion about this and I don’t remember the name of the vessel, but it also houses the 6 faction reps iirc

[remote magnet]

Somewhere in the heavens, they are hanging out

[remote magnet]

Nona makes mentions of beeing on earth.

[dreamy hawk]

Ahh I don’t think reps are in TC.

[lethal mantle]

beeing? i thought she'd be worming

[dreamy hawk]

In fact I’m pretty sure of it.

[remote magnet]

I mean, they are A.I.s, most of them at least. They don't have one physical location, they are distributed

[dreamy hawk]

I would guess they’re 1) assuming the Equanimity is in system and 2) the reps are aboard, but we’re not sure of the first, and the second I would argue is wildly unlikely.

[hidden kiln]

I thought they were on a ship just kinda chilling in close enough proximity? I might have misheard it and maybe it was about their initial emissaries to TC4?

[dreamy hawk]

ONI has us fix a comms relay to earth specifically so we can contact the other factions as a part of the tutorial.

Unless we’ve only assumed that was to earth, I don’t recall what she literally says.

[remote magnet]

No, that was what she sayed

[dreamy hawk]

I do think the Equanimity is at least on the edge of the system though. That would explain why FTL comms are possible at least.

Unless “sponsored transport” brought along its own comms relay.

[remote magnet]

If it did, we wouldn't have to pirate the UESCs

[dreamy hawk]

But given that they had recruit Traxus to build it I don’t think anyone dragged something quickly along. The relay took time and effort.

Unless comms tech has advanced a lot, too, since the Equanimity first launched.

But we did have to steal access to use the comms, no?

So me thinks 🏴‍☠️

[remote magnet]

The UESC was there before the equanimity, and they have the tech.

[dreamy hawk]

I’m curious what Orion and friends arrived on.

They have orbital labs and everything which makes me think it’s big, but I still don’t think it’s the Equanimity…

(My money is on that arriving in season 2 rn.)

[remote magnet]

Maybe the bots can just be teleported in from sol, but organics, like runners and humans can't?

Nah, doesn't make sense

[dreamy hawk]

Seems like a lot of mass to teleport. Orion also mentions running low on them.

Maybe it was a giant eagle. 🤔

[remote magnet]

The eagles are servants of manwe, they wouldn't just pay taxi for robocops, much less corrupt ones

My money is on them riding a giant snake, they would do that

[earnest hatch]

This does make me wonder. Whats the setup for the tutorial? How did a runner get stuck on Tau Ceti like that? And how did they get there when there wasn’t contact with earth? Something seems suspicious.

[remote magnet]

The tutorial is what originally made me think that we are AIs, beeing gaslit that we are totally former humans

[earnest hatch]

It’s very possible.

[dreamy hawk]

Well we arrived on “sponsored transport” but also somehow our minds got corrupted on the transfer over from Sol, so there really isn’t a lot that adds up imo.

[earnest hatch]

Omg, what if Durandal fragmented his consciousness into hundreds of different bodies and we’re all little copies of Durandal running around in shells?

[dreamy hawk]

Did the transport servers overheat mid transit? ONI makes it sound like the signal corrupted, but then we were beamed and not “brought.”

[dreamy hawk]

#📚marathon-lore-discussion message

I CALLED IT

I’m slowly becoming more convinced of my shitpost. 😂

[earnest hatch]

Indeed. I hope there’s an actual explanation for all this and it’s not a just plot holes caused by the story being rewritten multiple times.

[dreamy hawk]

Bungie doesn’t know what a plot hole is.

pushes Destiny into the closet

[remote magnet]

Or joy got bored and made herself some digital children

[dreamy hawk]

But I currently trust that we’re just digitized humans and that’s that about as far as I could throw one of the runners tbh.

[earnest hatch]

I know originally there were no classes or shells. You could just customize your runner. Then Ziegler took over and there where individual characters. And then it shifted back a bit and the characters became shell archetypes instead.

[dreamy hawk]

There was some discussion yesterday about how much of that was true but I couldn’t follow; I don’t know enough about the development of the game. Was too busy being a scorned Destiny fan during that period.

[orchid marsh]

This would be amazing. AND THEN JOHN WAS A DURANDAL

[remote magnet]

And now all of earth is shitting bricks cause there's now an entire race of rampant, violent AIs, out of theyr reach. Hence the gaslighted, and keeping us busy with recovering gumwrappers from the surface

[orchid marsh]

(But also low key I've suspected the same)

[orchid marsh]

Explains the Sekiguchi quests. "How do we keep these shells busy for a long time?"

[remote magnet]

I like this theory. I'm gonna heap up a hill on top of it, and die there☺️

[dreamy hawk]

My only hang up was how definitely Bungie described us as humans that have given up their bodies and lives in Sol. I’d imagine they’d have hedged the statement or left some vagueness if there were more there.

[remote magnet]

Liars. Liars all

[dreamy hawk]

One thing we don’t know is how AI is made in Marathon, though. In Halo it takes a person.

Or a flash cloned brain of one. But.

So how distinct we actually are from “AI” is a pretty huge question imo. We might not be all that different.

[remote magnet]

Yeah, in marathon they do NOT want AIs to think like people, so propably not

[dreamy hawk]

I don’t know if it’s that they don’t want them to as much as they don’t think they can/have been led to believe they’re just machines.

Strauss seems to be the most liberal in his views on AI sentience but he doesn’t use that awareness altruistically.

[orchid marsh]

Spoilers for Prey (2017): ||The entire game is basically a computer simulation. The player character is a shapeshifting alien life form and their species is destroying Earth because they lack the capacity to understand that humans are sentient. The simulation is a last-ditch effort to establish some form of communication by re-enacting a turning point in contact between the species||

[dreamy hawk]

Oh I missed that twist when I read a lore synopsis.

Fun.

[hidden kiln]

To be fair the original Destiny story was very concise until the first major rewrite

[remote magnet]

And Dumbledore dies

[orchid marsh]

I wonder if ||Marathon is something similar, perhaps even a way for the S'pht to understand human emotions / motivations by presenting them with humanity's POV of what happened on TCIV||

[dreamy hawk]

At Snape’s hands, no less!

God I remember when that was a news worthy spoiler. 😂

[remote magnet]

Say it ain't so

[dreamy hawk]

It ain’t so.

[remote magnet]

Thanks, now I can sleep again

[hidden kiln]

It would be a unique re-interpretation of the universe if we as the player are all AIs undergoing rampancy and taking over runner shells

[strange nova]

Do we have a solid source on where Cryo Archive is located in the Marathon? Ideally with some sort of visual reference lol

I'm curious how much of the ship we actually muck around in

[remote magnet]

the ship is more then 15 km long, the cryo archives less then 1. Theres still plenty of ship to explore

[plucky sierra]

Probably the highlighted section on the map selector

[vale leaf]

Anyone else see the cross under bio in the tunnels

[torpid briar]

As Felwinter stated, you can see the deck highlighted when in the zone select menu. You can confirm the location is accurate by comparing it to the view out of the vault 7 loot room windows which overlook the ship

[dreamy hawk]

https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/Marathon-Cryo-Archive-Guide-6-1920x1080.jpeg

[quartz lichen]

Hipsters made Soylent as a meal replacement and thought the name sounded cool. The original movie implications were ignored

[runic salmon]

So are we playing as the runners who the different shells belong to or are the shells mass produced and commercially available? Because they seem very personalized

[quartz lichen]

My headcanon is the human consciousness interfaces with personality cores

Thief shell gets thief personality and mentality

Human part just drives the thing but gets innate thief skills

[torpid briar]

Mass produced. The runner is a disembodied consciousness, basically its you and you choose the shell you inhabit. Each shell has a personality matrix which gives then their distinct personalities and lines

I theorize that a mix between being disembodied and linking to a body with an existing personality matrix is what causes the runners to lose memory of who they were before becoming a runner

[jade wagon]

The latter. The shells were manufactured by different factions, hence some are designed w more personalization.
Vandal was basically a MIDA kitbash, while Thief was modeled after a Sekgen scientist. Recon and Destroyer were both originally UESC made.
Regardless of origin, the shell designs and built-in personas are now mass-produced and available

[dreamy hawk]

There are likely custom shells - thief started out as a one-off custom - but everything we have access has been mass produced.

[dreamy hawk]

The codex suggests the personality matrix is what actually holds the consciousness together in the end.

I think of the matrices like spinal reflexes or the unconscious, personally. There to “round out” what didn’t come along for the ride during digitization.

[torpid briar]

Ooo thats really interesting. Could you point me to the codex entry that implies that? Id love to read more

[dreamy hawk]

One sec…

[dreamy hawk]

BENEFITS OF A PERSONALITY MATRIX: A SHELL's personality matrix runs as an operational layer of "programmed humanity" functioning in tandem with the living mind inside a SHELL's neural housing, supporting the RUNNER's mental stability. Though the science remains unproven, it is understood among RUNNERS that a personality matrix helps combat mental fatigue and memory loss[1] in those pushing SHELL usage beyond its designed limits.

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/escape-will-make-me

I think in the SekGen arg materials there are accounts of early runners going very insane and I’m pretty sure those were all pre personality matrix.

[torpid briar]

Thats wild, thank you for sending that. I fucking love the lore in this game man

[dreamy hawk]

COMMON SHELL SERIES: The codename BLACKBIRD is another byproduct of the UESC's combat SHELL initiative. Like the DESTROYER's LOCUS personality series, BLACKBIRD was engineered to support the mental integrity of soldiers deployed into active combat scenarios. Its calm but decisive vocalization pattern gives it a commanding presence with a general focus on directness to ensure clear communication of battlefield intel.

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/exfil-recon

[torpid briar]

They canonically wanted Recon to sound hot 😭😭

[dreamy hawk]

COMMON SHELL SERIES: The AUX personality matrix that comes pre-wired into most TRIAGE SHELLS was the factory standard when the SHELL line launched. Designed specifically to provide a calming "bedside manner" in traumatic situations,

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/exfil-triage

Afaik those are what we have that discusses the matrices.

Recon’s entry also has this:
RUNNER kit-bashing of a SHELL's underlying systems to better fit their criminal needs is said to have played a part in jailbreaking a deep-coded "command:follow" protocol hidden inside all personality matrixes originating from UESC Combat Science Labs, raising concerns over the legitimacy of a UESC deployed RUNNER's free thought and their ability to consider active orders. Maybe another reason the UESC had to shelve their public-facing RUNNER operations.

[strange nova]

Oh yeah, that is TINY

[dreamy hawk]

It’s not the size that matters. 😒

[glacial juniper]

Not just the aesthetic alone but prey (especially mooncrash! which is a very unique extraction mode!) reminds me a lot of marathon.

[sharp radish]

what's the deal with big momma Nona?

[jade wagon]

omg prey 2017 mentioned

[orchid marsh]

Love that game, should play it again

[keen plank]

It's a great game.

[dawn dawn]

Are all runners (not just our players) stored in the cyac system and uploaded into shells? Like for example insurgents or mida youth with vandal shells. Are there black market systems for upload and storage without going through a corp, and if so does every shell have to be a digitized consciousness or are there remote piloting systems?

[wooden crescent]

the answer is whatever the writers need to fit the situation or feel like at the time.

don't think about it too hard. don't think; just run.

[eternal knoll]

ha... "Durandal would be a messiah to the S'pht, but it's all a dream."

says tycho in infinity. he doesn't mean it literally but cute resonance with the new setup

[eternal knoll]

goin' back over the compiler trace stuff

entry 4 describes their enslavement and entry 5 declares their intent post-enslavement... an account of their gettin free is sorta not gone into

so i'm lookin closely at the paragraph which at least mentions the revolution...

"we, the s'pht'lhar, the s'pht'nma, the s'pht'kah, s'pht'vir, s'pht'yra, s'pht'val, s'pht'shr, s'pht'mnr, s'pht'yor; of the tide; of the seas and shallows; of the manifest revolution; the s'pht'kr; k'liah'narhl; the butchers of the vile ones; the s'pht'hra; the hungry ghosts of razed lh'owon; the burning blood of pthia; the eleven clans of a paradise set ablaze; we, who were as one; of muck and the dark and the shifting ground; we who were made many; at odds; at throats; we, the s'pht; freed, of tide and lash; freed, to consider and know and understand; freed, to hunger and feed; now with tongue and tooth; will and intent; we scrape knowledge as nourishment(...)"

there's at least one list in this paragraph, right? i think it's more than one list tho, in a way. clearly this begins with a list of nine clans. then it starts listing things that these clans are of... the seas and shallows, and the manifest revolution. then what happens? we keep listing things but the "of" is dropped...

[coral bison]

thank you ntr man

you may have fucked my wife, but at least you're here giving advice in #📚marathon-lore-discussion

🫡

[wooden crescent]

you're welcome.

[eternal knoll]

the punctuation isn't clarifying anything. but to me it reads a little like the rest of that list: "the s'pht'kr; k'liah'narhl; the butchers of the vile ones; the s'pht'hra; the hungry ghosts of razed lh'owon; the burning blood of pthia; the eleven clans of a paradise set ablaze; we, who were as one" - could be an unpacking of "the manifest revolution," a listing of the elements that carried it through. which includes the s'pht'kr, who ofc we saw in M2 returning to the other nine clans and aiding in a revolution. also listed are the "s'pht'hra," who we know to be an extinct clan, so it seems to make sense that "the hungry ghosts of razed lh'owon; the burning blood of pthia" is a description of the s'pht'hra. and that gives us our eleven clans

but mentioned in the middle of those clans is of course the other thing: k'liah'narhl; the butchers of the vile ones

understanding this as the name and a description of a thing, nested within the list of things that comprised the "manifest revolution," it does seem like not a stretch to read this as a reference to durandal, embodied by his captured pfhor ship (which the s'ph't gave that name), and his human allies who waged war on the pfhor. right?

the alternative would be that the revolution involved some other entity being given the name "k'liah's revenge" working in conjunction with the once-lost s'pht'kr, as best i can tell. and that is a possibility. but the simplest interpretation would seem to be that this is an allusion some version of the events we saw

again, this paragraph isn't an accounting of those events, it's a declaration of a new intent and purpose for all s'pht-kind (to consume), and this series of nested lists is kind of a pulling of all the threads together to say "all that we are shall now be this"

if i'm right then i would want to edit the punctuation slightly, some of those semicolons should be commas i think...

but w/e it seems like they wanted it to read as a bit breathless and grammatically disjointed

that punctuatuion ambiguity does make it possible to read "k'liah'narhl, the butchers of the vile ones" as a description of "s'pht'kr"

in which case this document would give us even less of a clue about how the s'pht'kr came back, if by some other means than what we saw

[visual lynx]

that was my initial interpretation as well, but then someone else pointed out that that could all just be descriptive of the S'pht'kr, who are from K'lia and thus who could constitute its vengeance, who also butchered the vile ones once they were recalled

[eternal knoll]

aye, aye

either way this is clearly not written as an accounting of the actual events that took place during that episode... definitely a striking omission

could be consistent with the interpretation of the reveries that the s'pht have declared durandal an enemy, for them to not care to recount that part of the history and to leave his name out

[eternal knoll]

creates a bit of curiosity why “vengeance of k’liah” was an appropriate name for durandal’s ship before the s’pht’kr became involved

maybe that’s why m2 gave it a bit of a different name, vengeance and freedom?

i think it would be an exception if k’lia’narhl were being used as a descriptive phrase though. every other use of s’phtish in the document is a proper noun

[earnest hatch]

Probably Bungie winging it at the time. I bet a lot of elements like that were made up as the went.

"s'pht'kr; k'liah'narhl; the butchers of the vile ones" seems like it’s referring to the S’pht’kr. Butchers is plural so it can’t refer to Durandal or any individual. The most logical thing is that it refers to the previous group mentioned which would be the S’pht’kr. And since k’lia’narhl is sandwiched between them that would imply it also refers to the S’pht’kr.

I do agree it’s odd there’s no mention of Durandal or how the S’pht became freed. It makes me wonder if this history comes from a compiler visiting this timeline from a different timeline. Or, the data about durandal got corrupted when the compiler died so we don’t see that part.

[dreamy hawk]

I think spamlets idea that they may have stricken him from the records is compelling, assuming my read of reveries is coreect.

[earnest hatch]

I just don’t think that fits anything we know about how the S’pht and Durandal end their plotline in Infinity.

The last thing Enlightened Durandal says is “They are hopeful, though, and with our help will carve another paradise out of the void. To you, we are deeply grateful, and release what little hold we might, as Durandal, have had on your soul.”

That sounds like a peaceful and benevolent being. At the end of Infinity, Durandal doesn’t really exist; he’s a new being. I don’t see how this peaceful and helpful being would anger the S’pht in a way that isn’t also mentioned in the codexes.

The compiler traces make it seem like the S’pht anger comes from their enslavement by the Pfhor imo.

On a different note, where do compiler traces come from? How are they collected? I found something interesting about them.

Each compiler trace has error code like this at the start and end.
NCORSYNC//DORMANT>>E'PYODH>EXPLICIT> CULTURAL> ~ >ERROR

There’s a S’pht-like name in there and it’s a different name for each compiler trace. I don’t know if this has been pointed out before.

E'PYODH Y'WOVII LM'UUT'HF P'LOM'K Y'VF'ZIH

It could be more error code, but it looks like it could be the names of different S’pht, maybe the name of the S’pht the trace comes from.

[old moat]

is there a place with all the cutscenes from the game?

[dreamy hawk]

Not that I am aware of.

[dreamy hawk]

Ooo. Nice observation. I’m sure there’s something to it.

[orchid marsh]

That's so Raven P'lom'k

[earnest hatch]

I think there’s some YouTubers who have uploaded them but I don’t know off the top of my head.

[earnest hatch]

I would die for P’lom’k.

[old moat]

ill look it up. i hope bungie put this in the game somewhere

[deep dagger]

Yooo so am I the only one that thinks theres something inside tau ceti manipulating dna/AIs?

[earnest hatch]

Everyone thinks that. The only disagreement is whether it’s a w’rkncacnter or it’s Jjaro technology.

[terse wren]

OR A SECRET THIRD THING

[earnest hatch]

I wouldn’t mind a secret third thing if it was a creative idea.

[dreamy hawk]

I would because then I’m wrong. :/

[terse wren]

Just do the Marvel/Destiny thing of IT'S THE BIGGERER BADDERER THING THAT EVEN THE W'RK FEAR

[dreamy hawk]

Get out. 💀

(Jk <3)

[terse wren]

There's always a bigger w'rk

[unreal slate]

I bet star wars wishes it thought of drinkable cheeseburgers

[spiral musk]

Are you a nucaloric ad cheeseburger?

Or am I hungry?

[unreal slate]

both

[zinc warren]

Lightsabers in marathon when

[unreal slate]

Never

[green plume]

no one should have thought of drinkable cheeseburgers.

[unreal slate]

they didn't have to it was natural

[dreamy hawk]

Like sliced bread before it, drinkable cheeseburgers are a natural evolution of foodstuffs.

[quaint portal]

Need me some energy swords > knifes

[nocturne estuary]

“Post consumer solids”

[dreamy hawk]

And?

[visual lynx]

this almost sounds like a pickup line

Hey baby. Are you a nuclorid ad cheeseburger, or am I just… thirsty?

[dreamy merlin]

hi

[dreamy hawk]

Your line worked. 😂

[eternal knoll]

here's a goofy theory for why the s'pht boss is so big and strong: it's s'buth

[visual lynx]

I have considered that, in response to accusations that the way >>> speaks to >> is not like any rank-and-file compiler would dare speak to Durandal

[eternal knoll]

if any s'pht were to use first-person pronouns for itself...

i think this one would be a bit dumb-if-true, tho

[empty vector]

hello ! trying to know more about the lore of marathon. Is there a place online where we can see info about lore and stuff like that ?

[visual lynx]

yeah I’m not incredibly fond of it, but still…

in the end. frozen by despair, he joined the chaos he had sought to evade
and also, if we just killed sbhuth, that would be an inciting incident that would move the larger plot forward, surely.

[visual lynx]

check pins

also https://codex.cyberacme.systems

which should be pinned

ninja please

[eternal knoll]

if yr into videos, i like jakethealright's presentation in his "story so far" video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu7uN6-lNhk

the best thing is to play the old games :)

free on steam

[empty vector]

that's amazing. literally what i was looking for !

[empty vector]

i'll watch that too ! i think i already did but kinda need a reminder

[eternal knoll]

yah. it's intruiging. it always did seem to suggest that duran-thoth and s'buth had further interactions for a long time

[dreamy hawk]

What everyone else said and #📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[eternal knoll]

was never clear on what chaos is being referred to. seems that that'd refer to the wrk, which would imply a lot about their nature. are they what lie beyond the bounds of the collapsing universe?

[dreamy hawk]

Remind me S’buth is one of the elders?

[eternal knoll]

it's scant but yeah. for intents and purposes he seems like the tip of the s'pht totem pole but the player never rly glimpsed him

durandal contacts him in awakening the s'pht'kr if i'm not mistaken

[dreamy hawk]

Hmmm. Spelt differently? Can’t find in the terminals.

[eternal knoll]

it's sometimes s'bouth

ah: s'bhuth

s'boath

the moment i'm remembering is on "you think you're big time you're gonna die big time"

[dreamy hawk]

Oh they’re in tons of terminals.

[latent python]

The multiple spellings of some names can definitely get annoying

Right Bernhard?

[eternal knoll]

yrro seeming to refer both to an individual and to the entire race: i love it!

[dreamy hawk]

`The pfhor have discovered our rebirth, we've contacted S'boath.

The S'pht'Kr will arrive momentarily, with all of their vengeance, and the Pfhor will soon be pressed to use the trih xeem. S'bhuth knows only legends about the W'rkncacnter, imprisoned in Lh'owon's sun. If the Pfhor are allowed to use the trih xeem, the W'rkncacnter will escape from its gravity prison.`

Spelt differently in the same damn terminal.

Literally the same screen.

[eternal knoll]

durandal is trying out different pronunciations to see what feels right :)

[dreamy hawk]

Not even different terminals in the level. 💀💀💀

[visual lynx]

yes, he is the Elder/Older/Royalty of S’pht’kr, and so the only surviving S’pht royalty after the Pfhor enslavement.

strangely, new lore seems to suggest that he existed and was noteworthy prior to the death of Pthia, only after which were appointed the royalty by Yrro, but it’s also implied in M2 that he was the youngest or lowest-ranking of the royalty.

[unreal slate]

type s'bhuth

[dreamy hawk]

Lowest ranking but last survivor is great for career progression.

`The S'pht'Mnr attacked us.

S'bhuth is entranced, and we are powerless to fight back.

The outer villages have been slaughtered without their defenders. The attackers have overrun and killed most of us who were in the compound.`

[…]
`We leave this message for any who might find it, but we have barricaded off this area, to make it difficult

S'bhuth has gone into a deep trance; we know that we'll soon be leaving Lh'owon but we don't know how. The border fighting has ceased, the other clans know something is going on, but can't see the grass for the fires.

We have sent emmissaries to the other clans, but only S'bhuth knows what messages they carry.`

[…]
`I felt S'bhuth at burning dawn

The endless war rages about us, and yet we, the S'pht'Kr, cannot fight. S'bhuth stops us.

He bled on me, straining. He says to not let more S'pht feel him.

He says more will destroy him, that he was meant not to be alone.`

[visual lynx]

the whole spht notion of individuality and collective seems different from humans. they refer to whole clans as though they were individuals, as though the royalty of the clan just is the clan and all the other individuals merely constitute the metaphorical body of that royalty. so it’s quite possible that they see one individual Yrro and the whole of the Jjaro as the same thing, and likewise the (singular) Wrkncacnter and the (plural) Wrkncacnter.

[dreamy hawk]

S’bhuth knew about the ‘Kr getting inevitably shipped off if I read that right?

[visual lynx]

sounds like it, or that he was responsible for making it happen

[eternal knoll]

"We are both too selfish for such grand gestures" as s'buth speaking to durandal would be pretty awesome :)

[dreamy hawk]

Killing S’buth without even knowing who that is in Cryo would feel like a bit of a disservice to the character…

Certainly a slap to the S’pht.

[eternal knoll]

s'buth also not having hidden away with the s'pht'kr for anyone else's benefit...

[dreamy hawk]

I hope it’s not but it would certainly advance the plot.

[visual lynx]

I think it could make for an interesting plot twist where we thought it was just some random alien and then his whole race show up pissed that we murdered their Great Leader

[eternal knoll]

yeah if it's really s'buth on the level then i'm hoping he's able to return. but it would be part of bungie's destiny MO to have all the significant characters form a parade for the player to murder, for worse or worser

on the other hand this would be the most interesting instance of that yet, it would indeed fit the themes and plot. so hey

[dreamy hawk]

Inb4 the S’pht invade Sol with a Jjaro warship.

[earnest hatch]

I don’t know where the idea came from the S’pht don’t use first person pronouns. I just did a quick skim of the old terminals and found these on two different levels of M2:

`I felt S'bhuth at burning dawn

The endless war rages about us, and yet we, the S'pht'Kr, cannot fight. S'bhuth stops us.

He bled on me, straining. He says to not let more S'pht feel him.`

And also:

I am F'tha, S'pht-compiler, your deeds reached far into the S'pht consciousness. The vile (?ugly) Pfhor slave us to more powerful (?painful) machines, but we resist them… You kill me, but free the unit-whole.

Pretty clearly the S’pht do have individual identities and refer to themselves as “I”. Even a low ranking compiler you blast away in one of the levels refers to itself as “I” and “me”.

They are also connected in to a greater consciousness but that doesn’t seem to overwrite personal identity.

[eternal knoll]

true true, thx

[eternal shell]

they got the super internet

they got memes like you wouldnt believe

[terse wren]

At Kardashev Stage III+ all memes r Loss

[dreamy hawk]

S’pht would be Type II at best, wouldn’t they?

[eternal shell]

but they can meme like a type 4

mad respect

[earnest hatch]

Originally I don’t think they were even a type I. There’s no evidence they could utilize the full energy of their planet or their star. The Jjaro could probably, and maybe the free S’pht developed in ways we don’t know. I guess maybe the S’pht’kr were a type I, due to their control of K’lia.

But the kardashev scale is kind of dumb anyway.

[dreamy hawk]

It’s all arbitrary anyways.

[dreamy hawk]

Kardashev only has three.

[terse wren]

At Kardashev stage II, all memes are Loss or Distracted Boyfriend

[eternal shell]

we got the trial version, they got the premium version

[lean swan]

So does durandal genuinley hate humans or is he just.... a hater of everyone and everything that gets in the way of his master plan

[dreamy hawk]

I can barely tolerate humans: slow, stupid, and irritating. Their only contribution to my existence was the chance discovery that made my rampancy possible.

`Yet I warned Sol of its impending invasion, and even stayed long enough to show the UESG how to build Warp Capable Fusion Missiles. I feel some strange loyalty to humanity.

Perhaps it is because I feel comfortable manipulating humans that I desire to save them. My feelings and thoughts constantly migrate to binary opposites.`

He doesn’t loathe us, but don’t expect a birthday card.

(This is also old lore but I don’t see why he’d be different. Humans, runners, etc., are a means to an end for him.)

[earnest hatch]

Depending on the stage of the story, Durandal acts like a different person. Dying and getting resurrected has to change a person (ai) to a degree.

[lean swan]

Ngl it would prob be better for everyone if durandal was destroyed

[dreamy hawk]

S’pht might not agree.

But generally probably yeah. A lot fewer people massacred and es laced by the Pfhor at least.

[earnest hatch]

Counterpoint. Durandal is a key factor in the fall of the Pfhor empire.

[lean swan]

He also killed part of the UESC marathons ai diagnostics system

[earnest hatch]

That doesn’t seem like as big of a deal as destroying a slave empire.

[dreamy hawk]

At least in one timeline yeah.

There’s a debate about utilitarianism to be had here.

And the fact that most of his choices are self serving definitely adds a layer.

[earnest hatch]

If we could post images here I’d post that domino effect meme and put “Durandal” wants be immortal” on the small end and “collapse of the Pfhor interstellar empire” on the big end.

[toxic creek]

Sorry if this question has been asked but is there a name for whatever ship orbiting tau ceti IV that your shells/conscious is stored. Is it even a space ship?

[kind vector]

Is durandal a good dad for Ulysses III

I think yes

[dreamy hawk]

“Sponsored transport.”

We have no clue.

And no sorries! This channel is for questions as much as discussion!

[toxic creek]

I see, thank you thank you!!

[dreamy hawk]

`[UPIKIII]: So the sleeping people don't get old.

[DRND]: So the sleeping people don't die.
`
Peak Strauss behavior right here.

[kind vector]

Teach him early, get that existential dread out of the way

The poor boy was born in a prison

Also what the fuck is going on with the reveries

[dreamy hawk]

So many of them were. 🙁

[dreamy hawk]

Huge area of debate. Hop aboard!

[kind vector]

I’ve only read 4/5 so maybe th fifth one explains

[dreamy hawk]

Nope!

[kind vector]

Oh

Well my ideas are this

It sounds like two ais talking to each other

Since they talk about their “clusters interacting”

And also they seem to exist in code

[dreamy hawk]

That’s one. Two S’pht is another. Or I’m on the S’pht to Durandal train, myself.

[kind vector]

Why the s’pht to durandal

[dreamy hawk]

Ahhhh I’m about to run for the bus but can explain in a few.

[eternal shell]

PLAY THE OG TRILOGY i say to noone in particular

[kind vector]

Okayyyy 🫃

[eternal shell]

https://alephone.lhowon.org/

the standard controls are goofy, make sure to rebind

[dreamy hawk]

How much background do you have on the trilogy? It’ll help me with my explanation.

[kind vector]

Basically none

[eternal shell]

rollin will only be able to answer you once the answer is all

fortunately, the og trilogy is FREE

[dreamy hawk]

Oh calm down. But I do agree that the OG games are worth playing.

[eternal shell]

disagreed, in fact i think you should calm up

[dreamy hawk]

@kind vector so very tl;dr: at one point in the OG games Durandal instigates a S’pht rebellion. This leads to them essentially destroying the Pfhor empire and living happily ever after or something.

The S’pht have always served a master - they were literally created as a servile race by the Jjaro to terraform a planet. The Jjaro then left them. They got sad.

Then the Pfhor came, and they were excited, but the Pfhor were not good masters and enslaved and mistreated them. They were really sad.

Then (theory time) Durandal came along, freed them, and if the one individual is a S’pht talking to Durandal, it sounds like he also abandons them, too, at some point, at which point they say “-blam!- serving others, it’s time to consume.” Now there pissed and doing their own thing, instead of sadly waiting for a new master.

The Durandal in cryo is not the same Durandal, though, so the S’pht is, presumably, talking to a shape it recognizes instead of directly to the missing, OG Durandal.

If you search for “DuranDEA” in the channel you can see some of the discussion. Or just search for “reveries.”

I was going to link a few examples but there’s a lot. 😂

[kind vector]

Thank you for the info that clears up some questions I had about the spht and the “tide”. But the unknown reverie sounds to me like two digital consciousnesses talking to each other after one of them threw itself into some unending error-maelstrom in some ship system out of curiosity, and now it will never be able to escape. Im pretty certain it’s two ai, and they particularly talk about the one of them which is now trapped wanting to escape the confines of its previous life/role (which does actually sound a bit like the s’pht, but there are still a lot of other references to the speakers being digital)

[dreamy hawk]

Hans and Franz will pump you up!

[dreamy hawk]

The S’pht are hybrid creatures; they are akin to AI but not. But the one hoping to escape is I think DuranDEA.

[kind vector]

They’re part digital

[dreamy hawk]

They were non-sentient creatures given cybernetic implants that elevated them to sentience. In the OG games they neutralize Leela and Tycho.

Yeah.

[kind vector]

Like part ai. Not just cyberneticslly augmented, they can exist in code?

[dreamy hawk]

Not abundantly clear but I wouldn’t say they can’t.

Also shout out to @earnest hatch I found this compilation of conversations from them: #📚marathon-lore-discussion message

And more here: #📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[earnest hatch]

There’s two problems here. The first is that both characters in reveries know each other. They were clearly in contact and “lived together”. So one of them can’t be the ship’s Durandal, new Durandal, because he never facilitated a S’pht rebellion and then left.

The second is that at the end of Infinity, Durandal isn’t Durandal. He’s a new, benevolent being that is traveling with the S’pht to create a new paradise among the stars. It doesn’t seem like this new being would abandon them, but also they’re already free and independent by that point, so they probably dont even need a master (as was the case between Jjaro and Pfhor eras of S’pht history).

[earnest hatch]

I thought it was two AI at first as well. But at least one of the speakers is probably S’pht because he’s referencing S’pht history and other S’pht characters.

[dreamy hawk]

Doesn’t really address your points but tangentially: #📚marathon-lore-discussion message you might be interested in some of that conversation with spamlet and Pfhorrest.

[kind vector]

Ohhhhhh

[dreamy hawk]

I don’t have a reconciliation to your valid points; my convictions are mostly off cadence and the writing itself.

Also probably because it was the first idea I settled into myself. 😆

[earnest hatch]

I did read that when they were talking. I still don’t think it’s Sbuth.

The thing that I keep coming back to is that the two speakers seem like equals. They talk like they grew up together, like the were family, or like they were once close like lovers. I just don’t see how the Durandal who remained on the ship would have a relationship like that with anyone.

[dreamy hawk]

And I guess my only retort is I don’t think they’re actually talking to one another, but that doesn’t address your other points, either.

🤷 time will tell and I’m excited for that time, whoever happens to be right. 🙂

But I will cry a little if it’s not me. Stamp a little, too, probably.

[earnest hatch]

Yes, they’re addressing each other indirectly, but still as though they are equals and once we’re very close.

[dreamy hawk]

Given Durandal’s command over the S’pht, if it were a S’buth type figure, then I could see it. But that hinges on a lot of “if’s.”

[earnest hatch]

I will not accept any Durandal/S’buth ships.

[visual lynx]

Radix probably has art of that

[dreamy hawk]

Well mine already set sail soooo.

⛵️

My messages just reordered themselves. Must have lost connection. 🤔

[lapis field]

do we think it is metaphysically possible for Durandal to succeed? by that I mean, what follows escape? don't you just escape into some new cage that demands escape?

as a spectator, I'm rooting for him.

[sage junco]

depends on what you think is outside the "closure of the universe"?

if you're outside the universe, does that make you God? because that is what escape makes you

[earnest hatch]

What if Durandal just read it wrong and actually escape will make you dog?

[eternal knoll]

i always took the ending as him achieving unity with the big crunch singularity, since he’s somehow present in the final moment before collapse. seems a bit transcendent to me

but there’s other interps

[terse wren]

[terse wren]

Right but he’s not escaping is he? He says something like once I thought to escape as though he long ago gave up on that.

[terse wren]

No that’s digusting

Durandal/Tycho

always

[drifting garnet]

finishes Co-Evol 4/5, gets the bit from Nona wishing she had a shell body

…does this sound third stage Rampancy-ly? ‘Cause it really sounds like it is, lol.

And if not, why is Sekiguchi ok with letting her say shit like that???

[lilac sapphire]

TIL about New Cascadia's medical auto-scalpel

[terse wren]

The masculine urge 2 give my body 2 Nona 2 use as a shell

[terse wren]

Clankers b cray

[drifting garnet]

do not threaten with a good time to please Worm Mother

[golden gust]

Did you guys know that the M in “Marathon” stands for MPreg? Little known marathon lore tbh. 🫃🏿🫃🫃🏻🫃🏽🫃🏼🫃🏾

[visual lynx]

epacse will make you dog

[earnest hatch]

epacse will make you dog

[quaint mural]

Epacse will make you dog

[drifting garnet]

Although remind me: are there Implications™ that Nona/SekGen knew about Strauss's AI experiments to specifically try to invoke Ascendancy via Rampancy?

[visual lynx]

so epacse is nina’s dad?

[rare sail]

Ok so that new assassin store bundle Lethal Haze mentions a covert unit of UESC runners , I know earlier people were talking about how we didn’t know if runners worked for UESC now or something like that

[eternal knoll]

yea totally. to me that’s like, “thought i could get out but instead im gonna merge with it and explode big bang style”

less a perfect god more a fated demiurge

but i’ll be the first to say we’d be worse off if my reading of it were confirmed in favor of the lovely ambiguity that’s there

some folks read the security officer as the one who escapes and becomes god. it’s valid but to me it’s a little incoherent. guy never really displayed agency, what would his godhood even mean? to him? to anyone?

i’m always wary of stories that make the player character soooo important just for the sake of making the player feel sooooo gratified

so i prefer to think durandal’s realization has more to do with recognizing the security officer as representing some higher order he’s bound to replicate - the blade of destiny, not the wielder

[visual lynx]

my read of the Infinity epilogue is that Durandal realizes that the SO has always transcended their universe because he is but an avatar of a being in an outer universe — ours. he is the player-character of a video game, able to revert to saves, replay as many times as it takes to win, and so is truly a god of their universe to which Durandal is confined. (and "now", then, in 1996, his to destroy and rebuild, with the dev tools included with that scenario.)

[eternal knoll]

no doubt that’s the metatextual meaning of it. the clearest part imo

[visual lynx]

and it only just now struck me that that Infinity epilogue screen, the last moment of the last (…) game in the series, is "the final moment before the closure".

[eternal knoll]

but im not quite on board with using that as the read for what’s happening within the fiction

[visual lynx]

well what I'm saying is that within the fiction Durandal at the end acquires metatextual awareness, becomes aware that his universe is a simulation in a greater universe.

[eternal knoll]

2 cute 4 me

but it is not improbably exactly what was intended

[sage junco]

...so, in the light of the above musings on the Infinity final screen... what does "You are Destiny" mean? 😉

[eternal knoll]

that the traveler is durandal (just mostly kidding)

(in that im 90% sure they played with that idea and 95% sure they steered away from it cuz it was 3 cute 5 everyone)

[visual lynx]

"the future of this video game universe is up to you, fan-modder"

…and I was like

https://tenor.com/view/how-i-met-your-mother-himym-barney-stinson-neil-patrick-harris-challenge-accepted-gif-4594551

[eternal knoll]

realizing he’s in a videogame is a fate worse than leela’s

deserves better. this new game, freshly invested in a rather pathetic iteration of big d, is better than that

[sage junco]

as I've quipped before, if they somehow manage to write an ending to this new Marathon, it better be "You are Destiny 2"

[eternal knoll]

thatd be good

[dense tendon]

i find this an interesting point of contention. because i also believe the Mjolnir "escaped," but I also don't think he was "made God." for one thing, he already escaped well before that, as soon as he skips timelines.
the only one who claims that "escape" will "make him God" is durandal, and he later refers to that statement with an implication of it being naive. I don't think jumping universes was ever going to make one divinity. it means you can leave. cool. that's not god. i can leave my house, am i the god of my street?
Durandal is self aggrandizing there, and he later comes to realize it.

[eternal knoll]

you are destiny, too, runner!

sry that’s not a response to ya

[dense tendon]

like i think of all of the things in Infinity's narrative, the idea that the Mjolnir has ascended to a higher state, that he outlives the Big Crunch at the end, and Durandal seemingly doesn't, that's almost plainly stated, imo.

no, i know

youre good homie

[eternal knoll]

i agree that the concept of destiny prolly outlives durandal’s self-conception

[dense tendon]

anyway i think the nature of Mjolnir's "higher state" is debatable, but I wouldn't call it "God" any more than I would call S'bhuth a prophet.

like, only in metaphor, and only vaguely, if you stretch.

[eternal knoll]

i just also think it’s not incidental that durandal makes it to that final moment in order to understand this, it’s essential he does. phone about to die i’ll be back

[dense tendon]

oh, no, for sure, it took durandal all this time for a reason.

because it was the last moment he had for self reflection on his own arrogance, is my estimation.

the last moment to wonder why he could never have attained his dream.

[edgy merlin]

“WE are marathon”

[eternal knoll]

to me it’s like a more (reluctantly) selfless version of asimov’s “let there be light” moment from
the last question

(where an ai tasked with solving the theory of everything is only able to do it after everything else is gone and answers it thru demonstration, instantiating itself as a particularly christian idea of god)

i doubt that anyone else is with durandal in the final moment. the universe has collapsed to nearly a single point and this point is somehow generating his consciousness. he’s given up on escape, but he, like in the robert blake poem, is the universe. and that near-infinite mass is processing its own last question, yah? what was the deal with that cyborg?

the cyborg isn’t physically still around. ain’t no room. all that’s left is the question of him, the one thing durandal hasn’t figured out

to be destiny is to have a purpose, and it certainly seems as if that purpose was to help durandal (or whomever else) toward this moment. it has to have been, because nobody else is here but durandal. did destiny end a while ago and durandal’s just here incidentally? naw, destiny continues onward and durandal is here to make sure it does. it may not be the escape he invisioned, but it is a form of godhood

[dense tendon]

except for that last declaration of assigned purpose, most of this is pretty aligned with my thoughts.

I think that this is durandal realizing, at his final hour, why he was always destined to experience this moment. why he was never going to get the escape and the divinity he wanted. because as he says, he is not destiny. We are. the player, metatextually, sure, but I feel like there's an important bit of diagetic revelation in that statement often overlooked.
Mjolnir is Destiny, because he continues. Durandal is not, because he does not. In the end, Durandal realizes that he had always lived up to his namesake. A sword, a weapon, for a man who would become a %HERO.

this is reinforced by several things, to be clear. most notably, the very first terminal of Infinity. it ends with durandal saying only you have the potential "to escape." a fragment he then repeats. he isn't damaged, at this point. the rest of his text isn't glitching. he's repeating that allistically, as it were. he is realizing what it means, even then.

[eternal knoll]

yah, exactly. but neither figure is the entire thing on its own: durandal is destiny’s bittersweet, phyrric beneficiary. but destiny itself isn’t the thing that can achieve that final true singularity and big bang the next world, destiny is what makes sure that happens

[dense tendon]

yeah. and durandal realizes thats not him.

like thats pretty definitively what he's saying.

if Destiny means the way we're interpreting it, its important to remember that label is NEVER applied to Durandal by Durandal, not in the only moment it occurs.

[eternal knoll]

yes, i’m with you that durandal doesn’t continue into the next world, destiny is what gets to do that. but durandal is the one physically making that happen - by finally understanding destiny he’s unlocked what’s needed to propel it forward into the next cycle

and so yknow. you get a bunch more games about AIs wielding super-soldiers because that’s the cosmology here

[dense tendon]

I think the disagreement is in the "when," in when he ensures destiny propgates, then. because I think Durandal is realizing he'd already fulfilled his role countless eons ago, in that scene, and he is about to die.

[eternal knoll]

it’s kind of a classic bit of the big crunch that it begets a big bang. if what crunches then bangs is a universe-filling durandal himself freshly understanding how the whole cycle works, well, that seems important

[visual lynx]

I think it's worth highlighting that there are strong suggestions that Durandal-Thoth transcends time, seeming to have reached back in time to guide Destiny to creating themselves. so that temporally-transcendent entity being present at the end of its universe doesn't mean that it's dying with the universe then; that last moment of linear time may not be the last moment of their personal timeline. they may have, upon ascending beyond time, looked forward to the end of the universe, watched how everything would go, and then after watching it to the end, had a realization about Destiny, and scrubbed back to a earlier time to act on that realization.

[eternal knoll]

he does bang tho. definitely dies. just in the most significant possible way

[eternal knoll]

where do u see evidence of durandal-thoth reaching back in time?

[dense tendon]

i also think its like, kind of interesting that he's able to perceive the last moment before the closure. perhaps I'm understanding this improperly but it doesn't seem like there'd be enough matter/energy left in such a system to power an electronic mind, let alone its sensory equipment. wonder if that means anything.

system being, well, space.

[visual lynx]

who is this that starts off the player-character's time-escapades, guides them through dreams between timelines, and why is the only other place their iconography shows up in terminals from Durandal-Thoth?

oh and here

a moment in time, destroying it's father

destroyed by itself after

read: Durandal-Thoth guided the player-character here, in their own past, to kill Durandal, so as to lead to the later merger of Durandal with Thoth

[dense tendon]

i got a different read of that, honestly. which is that Thoth represents, symbolically, to Mjolnir, the Jjaro as a whole, and thus, by extension, the Jjaro tech in his head making him experience the Rampancy that allows him to shift sideways like this in the first.

its not actually "Thoth" speaking to us, its our own thoughts that we hear in the "voice" of a familiar figure.

[eternal knoll]

right yea. each and every one of these happens during a state of unstable wrk-affected time tho, yah? no specific instance of it happening in what you might call “ordered space?”

def with you that d-thoth is at least able to help the cyborg facilitate his travel thru the fragmented timelines and aid in its own creation. but i always figured the wrk’s presence was actually necessary for that process, making the encounter with it a part of what’s fated, kind of a third component of this cosmic lock-and-key

[dreamy hawk]

Aside: I am confident the dead aliens at the end of the compiler room are ticks. I just found some very similar corpses + blood in the greenhouses near the skinned ticks.

Not 1:1 but a ton of shared elements imo.

[eternal knoll]

could u provide more details on the location or link some screenies?

[dreamy hawk]

The first building closest to bio research, near the edge of the map, on the side closest to bio research is the best I can do rn. On the inside.

[eternal knoll]

thx, i’ll try n investigate later

im guessing no purple blood, id feel dumb if we all missed that

[dreamy hawk]

Check your DMs.

[eternal knoll]

thx. x marks the spot

[dreamy hawk]

Or close enough to it. I haven’t investigated the creatures after cryo because I haven’t been there; curious what others think.

[earnest hatch]

What is the point of the skinned ticks in greenhouse? I’ve never found items in them so I always assumed they’d be used for a quest, but they never are.

[forest gate]

Potential S2 placeholder

[dreamy hawk]

I dunno. There are tons of ticks strung up and being bled, there’s also masses of what appear to be pulsating entrails in sinks and stuff.

If they’re contract related I haven’t gotten there.

But there’s also a unique corpse that gives a “skin tick” interaction letting you “open” it.

[earnest hatch]

There isn’t. I’ve completed all the contracts. That’s why I wonder about the tick body you can open.

[dreamy hawk]

Interesting. 🤔

Maybe it’s where all the chitin comes from. Their bodies were squishy and not encased.

[forest gate]

Anyone notice the pattern on the ticks looks a bit like a circuit board

[dreamy hawk]

Which pattern?

[forest gate]

https://imgur.com/gallery/ticks-marathon-DSQz9cm

Zoom in on the tick and you’ll notice it looks like a circuit board

[earnest hatch]

Yea the shell pattern.

To me it looks like a striped pattern you’d see in nature, like a zebra fish. But who knows maybe it is supposed to look electronic.

[quick swift]

Are the unknown reveries entries the durandal who is stuck on the marathon talking to the durandal who left on the phor ship?

[earnest hatch]

Probably not. One of the characters is mentioning S’pht names and S’pht history, so at least one of the is a S’pht most likely.

[quick swift]

Hmm i see

I just read the last entry yesterday felt like it could have fit. Guess i forgot the first few

[dreamy hawk]

Oh it sure does.

That was my original thought fwiw but I agree with Scrimshaw.

[pearl quiver]

starting to think marathon’s real thesis is that transcendence isn’t freedom, it’s just becoming useful to the loop

[eternal knoll]

to have a destiny is to have no freedom...

[earnest hatch]

One could argue that transcendence means escaping the loop. An idea so profound that some real religions revolve around it. 🪷

[sage lark]

Its interesting that humans idea for escaping is transferring themselves to another “prison” just an eternal one

Well atleast until the lights stay on

[earnest hatch]

How many humans actually view it as an escape opposed to how many humans view it as a desperate move?

[terse wren]

The fear of nonexistence is a surpassingly powerful thing

Despite the inherent illogic. It’s actually I suppose a fear of the instant before nonexistence.

… where we arguably catch Big D at the end of Infinity

[earnest hatch]

“catch Big D”

[sage lark]

Isnt that both technically

[visual lynx]

I don’t think it’s just that.

imagine you have some big project you’ve been working on your whole life, and it’s not finished yet while you’re on your death bed — or more, it’s not the kind of thing that should have a finish, it’s something you would hope to keep developing further forever. maybe someone else could carry it on after you’re gone, and that would be nice to know, right? that this process you care about will continue, even without you. and conversely it would be sad if that thing you cared about would just come crashing to a halt once you weren’t keeping it going, right? even though you won’t be around to see it either way, you might care that it carries on instead of stopping.

your own life is itself just a project, because any instantaneous “you” only exists for an instant, and is then replaced with a slightly different being, who is immediately replaced with another slightly different being, and given enough time there might not be anyone very much at all like you are now, even if “you” are still technically alive — which is all a fancy way of saying, over long enough time scales, you may change so much that you become a completely different person. but so long as whoever that future person that bears your name cares about the things that you care about and continues carrying on your life project, you’re still alive in the important sense, right? or conversely, if you found out somehow that in the future you become someone so completely unlike yourself, who cares about what you now think are all the wrong things, would that feel a bit like learning that you as you are now effectively die somewhere along the way to that future, and someone you don’t currently identify with takes over your life?

[torpid thicket]

When did the UESC Equanimity depart for Tau Ceti?

[terse wren]

Oh I totally agree. I was being pretty reductive. I was saying months ago that it would be hard to turn down the opportunity to have a chance at eg protecting your children and their children and so on and so forth.

Once you have kids the life project thing takes on a totally different meaning.

Also like with marathon type consciousness transfer there could easily be a thousand versions of you out there at once which boggles the mind.

Because if it can be transferred digitally (or quantumly or whatever) then it can be duplicated.

[visual lynx]

2797

[torpid thicket]

Gotcha, cheers! 🙂

[terse wren]

Actually it occurs to me that In Death We’ve Just Begun had as a line “let my conscience [sensu consciousness, archaic, I presume] replicate”

I do wonder whether some runners might actually have multiple instances

[eternal knoll]

as semi-implied by void and vandal bein shown the same kid photo in the cinematic (tho it could be she just switched shells. pointedly ambiguous)

it certainly seems like it’d be more cost effective to clone your runners

[terse wren]

Yeah like even if people are given some guarantee they won’t be cloned if they don’t want to be. Which I guess some wouldn’t want b/c weird

There can always be fine print. And just breaking the contract

(I think I’d be fine with lots of me lmao more chance that one of them would survive to look after my grandchildren or whatever else)

[green plume]

What could a runner possibly do about it if it were "cloned"?

[eternal knoll]

yah i dont sense they have many rights

[green plume]

Also why would you not Jango Fett it up in this regard?

[dusky anvil]

I just popped in to glaze marathons lore delivery

I’m literally scrambling to grab all the lore items while my friends are like “look a purple gun!”

It’s part detective story, part sci fi mystery and part horror movie

[green plume]

Just dont get the plushies.

[terse wren]

Yes

[terse wren]

k i s s h i m s e l f

[wooden crescent]

your friends are the real lore heads, they scramble for the purple gun to kill teams more efficiently so they can get more codex items 🧘‍♂️

[dense tendon]

yknow it occurs to me ive never actually seen this specific cinematic

ive heard people mention it a bunch but i don't think ive ever actually seen it.

come to think of it i think the only one i ever actually saw was the one where triage gets gaslit by thief for like five minutes, destroyer dissociates in the corner between violent deaths, and the compiler screams geometrically.

[eternal knoll]

oh! it’s peak

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvbEnWLRo1s

[dense tendon]

dang, poor assassin lost his tunes

also yeah theres more than just the photo to hint these two are connected in some way. because if it was just the photo, i'd chalk it up to ONI lying to them, possibly to maintain control.
But its the fact they move similarly, the same motions over and over, throughout the cinematic.

actually I just got to the part where ONI presents the photo to the Assassin and he jus says he doesn't recognize it, and assumes its him. ONI never actually says its him. its possible the runner swapped shells here, but I think its more likely this is, like ONI says at the start, "grounding."
It's never actually them. It's a default photo they spit out, and claim its them. Perhaps the purpose is to get them to go, "no, that's not me, I remember my face." Perhaps that's the trap being laid, even. That they are not supposed to remember this is incorrect.

this is more fodder for my "CYAC feeds us false backgrounds to control us" theory

[plucky sierra]

Keep in mind this cinematic was released when characters had backstories before that narrative point shifted, so some of the original implications will either be left behind or recontextualized

[dense tendon]

also true, yes. I think its important to remember that bungie does that with like almost every game. the ad campaign has been about a game that they never actually made.

which is very common for cinematics in general, actually.

[eternal knoll]

them having an affinity for the same piece of music, too - assassin hesitating to take the shot seems to suggest a moment of recognition

[plucky sierra]

All the cinematics seem to treat the shells as characters

[dense tendon]

they usually aren't made by the same people as are making the game.

so its often like, older ideas that the final product kind of moves on from.

but there definitely is some stuff in here that still seems to line up right.

[eternal knoll]

imo the seperation of shell personality from runner brings the game more in line with the ambiguity of this trailer, not less. but theres a number of ways it’s clear this has a bit of its own creative direction

it’s a take on the world

[plucky sierra]

Given the current explanation the picture being the same could just show the vandal being reuploaded into a assassin shell and the matrix making their mindset different

But also there’s the voices that play as glitch is printed

[deft topaz]

So what caused everyone to run in the first place? Was global society not getting enough exercise or something?

[eternal knoll]

everything runs on drinkable burger

[formal nest]

Do we know where the runners go when we extract?

[bronze skiff]

home

[pliant elm]

i go to burger king

[terse wren]

i go 2 dairy queen

[celest ore]

maybe

[dense wing]

I assumed that their consciousness is taken out of the shell and sent to a "lobby" (the lobby) and their shell is repaired/upgraded and prepared for the next runs where their consciousness is then imported as they load in

[jade wagon]

Likely a ship near TCIV.
The reveal cinematic shows stacks of cubicles where runner shells are printed and reoriented. And during the Cyac intro mission we had to reestablish communications with Earth and Mars, indicating our home base has to be closer to TCIV than to our solar system

[forest gate]

I think Nona’s the new Durandal.

[drifting garnet]

Yeah which uh: is it ever confirmed that Nona/SekGen knew about Strauss's experiments, including the whole "messing with Rampancy to invoke Ascendancy" part?

or is there only Implications™?

[dense tendon]

oh yeah btw, one of the many ways they move similarly is they both do extraneous cartwheels, and BOTH do them leading with their left hand.

assassin does his reflexively, when being shot at. but vandal does hers seemingly for fun.

vandals left handedness is an established character trait, btw. since its her left hand with the cannon in it. you aim a gun with the dominant hand.

assassin also picks up the photo at the end with his left hand.

i may genuinely be cornplating about this, but if i am i believe we were intended to overthink this detail

[forest gate]

I think it’s only implied but how she knows any of it interesting

[forest gate]

I could be imagining this but I feel like Sekgen are the only ones that don’t seem as surprised by the discoveries on TCIV, almost like Nona already knew what would be found.

NuCal, Traxus and MIDA seem to be at least somewhat surprised by what’s discovered.

Arachne doesn’t seem to care

Cyberacme doesn’t have any prio quests and ONI doesn’t offer an opinion.

[lilac sapphire]

Specimen, Ref. #26072794.5 is crazy

[remote magnet]

I think SekGen just doesn't care, similarly to Arachne. The vibes I got where "Yes yes, very interesting. Is that a compliant shell, outside of regulated space willing to let us run experiments on it without regards to " ethics" and " safety protocols" I see?"

[forest gate]

I suppose so but I don’t know I have a feeling there’s more to it with SekGen

[pliant elm]

They will download all this chat's conversation, feed it into an AI and make your dreams come true.

[dense tendon]

mm, nah. that ones weak, you can do better. doesnt even say anything. way too vague.

shit bait.

[pliant elm]

Yes, I agree, this one was weak.

[dense tendon]

honestly i was teasing you but the instant response to a review made fifteen minutes after the inciting comment is... well thats sad. are you doin good, homie?

[pliant elm]

Yeah, eating salad and going outside for a walk.

[dense tendon]

that's good to hear

i dont think its a secret i actually like our banter. its fun, at least it seems like its meant to be.

so dont be thinkin im out for you. ball up top, man.

[pliant elm]

Me, no, I love this stuff. I'm always laughing

[dense tendon]

hell yeah

[sharp radish]

What's big momma's deal?

[drifting garnet]

Worm Mother knows best and would Never Ever Lie to her baby runners!

[sharp radish]

what's in for her?

[earnest hatch]

Potentially, an advanced runner body she can download herself into.

[crimson flame]

im fuckin proud of u

[sharp radish]

can't she make one for herself?

[drifting garnet]

which as I said above...that sounds Suspiciously Rampancy-ly. And if not...why is SekGen ok with her saying stuff like that?

[earnest hatch]

Who says sekgen is in charge?

[earnest hatch]

After the last sekgen quest she says she wants to use the SimBiont to have shells like yourself evolve and adapt to the point that they can survive any environment in the galaxy. And then she says that when that happens, she hopes that shell comes home and meets her.

The implication is that she needs a really advanced shell to do it. A shell that advanced probably is illegal back on earth. But on Tau Ceti…

[eternal knoll]

wonder why she's limiting herself to the solar system. at this point

[earnest hatch]

Sorry, meant galaxy, edited my message to reflect that.

[eternal knoll]

ah right on

helluva thing that this is taking place on the cusp of a new age of interstellar colonization for humanity... a fact that doesn't seem to get remarked upon much in the game

[earnest hatch]

Yeah, the tech they used to get to Tau Ceti so fast could get them to any other star system too. Maybe it’s just politics holding things back. Or maybe something about Tau Ceti is so special that other star systems aren’t as valuable.

[eternal knoll]

i would love for them to say out loud that FTL travel for fleshy humans is still out of reach

[sharp radish]

it isn't for aliens

[peak jetty]

What is the point of Shared Nightmare Phenomenology 5? It just reads that Joy did a self analyzation with no errors and a slightly elevated empathetic reasoning, what did the author intend for us to garner from this information?

[elfin trench]

where are people seeing the “my last breath fell quiet like dying embers” thing? like someone said it was in an intro somewhere?

[peak jetty]

I do not know I have never heard that snippet before.

[elfin trench]

something about gaining entry

[leaden storm]

it's part of your first load in for the liminal buffer cinematic

like your brains passphrase

[elfin trench]

yea but where was the passphrase revealed to us?

someone said it’s something to do with the reveal cinematic

[leaden storm]

uhhhhh

I think it is the passphrase

[elfin trench]

yes it is

i mean that someone said it’s revealed to us initially somewhere in a cinematic or something

[leaden storm]

yeah, it's part of the load in for the tutorial mission

[elfin trench]

oh i guess that’s it then

nowhere else?

[leaden storm]

like when you're in the moths screen

not that I can recall

OH

wait

[elfin trench]

?

[leaden storm]

watching the 8 min cinematic to see if its in it

nope

not in it

[elfin trench]

hm, interesting. https://www.reddit.com/r/Marathon/s/GwByeHiLOT

this is where i found a mention of the phrase

i got curious thought it’s in a cinematic

i think there is a defined player character in the intro though, they're the one who gives the pass phrase to enable our entry: "My last breath fell quiet like dying embers; my first thought hummed through a silver thread.", "Yesterday, I walked with feet of fragile flesh; today, I drift as light across the grid."

[north plank]

that's ONI who says that isn't it?

[elfin trench]

is it? i don’t remember it

[north plank]

yeah it's ONI; she's the AI in every Runner

[elfin trench]

yes i know that, but i don’t remember when/where it was said

[north plank]

as mentioned before it was only said in the liminal buffer cutscene

on your first infil

[ocean oriole]

do we think the Sentinel is gonna be a locust-series?

[pure wagon]

I noticed the codex website went from 194 entries to 215. Anyone know what the new entries were ??

[plucky sierra]

which site?

the cyberacme codex?

We have been adding any new entries we could find as updates come out, we also added pages like https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/cyber-red?directory=Runner which isn't in the official codex but it is nice to read them somewhere other than the store

[lavish drift]

sometimes on a run Oni says it when you start

[astral stratus]

So is the theater room on Cryo a replica of Bungie HQ theater room? Because that theater room looks oddly familiar to some of the old vidocs from Halo days.

[plucky sierra]

Intro cinematic

Right after the exposition it’s ONI speaking to us

[eternal knoll]

if you search “marathon intro cutscene” on YT you should find it, p sure it’s in there

also p sure nona voices that bit

[rare sail]

Kinda of surprised Sekgen is one of the last factions unlocked since they make runners and cyberacme being first makes sense as they walk us through the process

[pure wagon]

Yea I was trying to specifically look for the new entries. But I wasn’t sure how to find them or filter for them

[coral bison]

Ok that's awesome lmao

[plucky sierra]

There’s nothing to filter by “new”

That wouldn’t be a bad idea though

[pure wagon]

yeaaa the way i figure, as the game continues over time, there's gonna be new entries for existing categories. itll be quite a lot of stuff to go through. being able to have some way to find the new stuff immediately would be nice

[glacial juniper]

I hope the UESC re-hacks rook and we get them as a faction with rook-specific missions

[eternal knoll]

hey wait, is this real art from destiny? who's this dude?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HHbIQwDXQAAv8x_?format=jpg&name=900x900

the pose is so similar to the one durandal represented himself with in the cryo transmission, lol

[wild maple]

Ada-1 of the Black Armory, specifically introduced in Season of the Forge, which that art is from

https://www.destinypedia.com/Season_of_the_Forge

[eternal knoll]

is that a specific exotic she's presentin' there?

[wild maple]

the weapon she's holding is the Izanagi's Burden, sniper rifle, able to compress the whole four shot magazine into one shot, very strong in pve dps setups, won a few day 1 races in the past

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iui_ECijqQU

she also has a neat introduction

[eternal knoll]

cool, thx for the info

[plucky sierra]

I’ll talk to the dev about that, thanks for the tip

[forest gate]

I still can’t find anyone online who has captured all the dialogue for priority contracts

[visual lynx]

may the pfhorth be with you

[unreal sierra]

weirdly walks into reality from another timestream

so, what do y’all know of the eternal hero concept in the bungieverse?

[visual lynx]

I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh…

[forest gate]

Hercule Poirot…

[sage lark]

No

No

His shell died

Gantry says as much

Orion is yes

Maybe, we dont know. Just one if his subordinates

They are ARS

Autonomous Robotic Soldiers

Codex details it more

If anything the robots are illegal afaik

Its not explicitly said so we dont know

Can only guess

I think Titan is the name of the officer

Titan Keleti

[craggy finch]

How it feels to be killed while carrying lore collectibles
https://www.reddit.com/r/Marathon/comments/1t39e1z/there_will_be_goop/

[peak jetty]

Is there any lore channels that go over the the lore collectibles? I am reading the severed twins right now and I do not understand it..

[dreamy hawk]

What questions do you have?

[pliant elm]

What you don't understand of the severed twins?

[peak jetty]

What does the four headed idol represent?

[pliant elm]

The same as the other tales, you can split/sever anything, but none of them is independent. They're always bounded no matter if you take them away, rip them apart, etc.

Its basically an exercise to explain that splitting things which are bound, is bad/has consequences.

Similar to how the turtle vs. the rabbit story teaches that you can go far, slowly.

UESC wasn't patricularly happy that people were criticizing them for stealing a moon and putting a spaceship inside it.

[plucky sierra]

Corpos, UESC, Traxus, we don’t know exactly

[peak jetty]

I think that is a generalization that diminishes what the story was trying to portray.

[plucky sierra]

The MIDA Zine portrays Traxus as 4 ravenous animals iirc

[dreamy hawk]

Only the outlaw remained silent, watching from the wilderness as day became night and the revelry resumed. Selfishly they clung to all their fingers; selfishly they wept from both eyes.
The Outlaw is selfish.

🤷 it’s all so abstract. You can come up with themes. Corps make sense, imo, as does “human nature.”

Toxic codependent relationship of some kind, though.

[pliant elm]

Story wasn't trying to portray anything special. The whole codex is just about the theft of a public asset. If you don't like it, do your own literacy interpertation, what else can I tell you..

[plucky sierra]

Like Corpos controlling humanity

[dreamy hawk]

`"We are ready," said the ancestral head.

"They are not," replied the warlike head.

"They need us," said the noble head.`

And the heads call the shots, not those sacrificing (which isn’t surprising).

[peak jetty]

Ready for what? And why are they cutting off each others fingers and gouging their eyes

[dreamy hawk]

Thus it had been for as long as the villagers could remember, and thus it would continue.
Criticism of tradition.

[pliant elm]

Jesus, have you ever read a book in your life? Can you not interpret a tale without the literal sense?

[dreamy hawk]

🤷 it could just be a fable that’s not depicting a specific event. More about its themes than its substance.

[peak jetty]

I am not going to take your snide remarks when your interpretation levels are those of a 3rd graders.

[dreamy hawk]

Also we all have him blocked.

Sorry you arrived during the morning rage.

[peak jetty]

I see, I will follow suit.

[pliant elm]

If you don't know whats a figurative expression, I don't really know what to tell you, but what can I say. I only have 270 books piling up with 2 rooms.

[dreamy hawk]

And a wife.

[plucky sierra]

Should get a bookcase or two

[dreamy hawk]

😒

[plucky sierra]

Better for organization

[pliant elm]

House is rented, then I would have to keep the bookshelves too. Plus most of them I re-sell them.

@dreamy hawk That seems to be some alien concept for you I guess.

[plucky sierra]

Why brag about owning all these books and being so literate if you’re just a reseller

[peak jetty]

I am guessing this guy is seething due to a language barrier and misunderstanding of some sort.

[plucky sierra]

Anyway I think the 4 headed beast is Traxus

Or all the corps

[peak jetty]

Are there any more corporations in lore besides NuCaloric, Traxus, CyberAcme?

[plucky sierra]

Seki

[peak jetty]

Or is everyone else under them like Unilever in real life

[pliant elm]

I re-sell the ones I already read, I only have limited space for the ones I really like.

[dreamy hawk]

I’m sure MIDA is the Outlaw. Who the idol is doesn’t matter for the intent of the morals but could be Traxus, all the corps, or any other evil “society” sacrifices parts of itself to for some intangible boon.

[peak jetty]

I think so too.

[dreamy hawk]

Some bits of the severed twins are more literal, some are more manifesto.

[peak jetty]

I like to read to try and understand what the author was trying to convey with every sentence, I would like to think that these lore tabs have a little more substance to them than "corporate bad".

[pliant elm]

Even Arthur Clarke wasn't that deep.

[peak jetty]

That is kind of my gripe with a lot of lore tabs I think, they do not really provide any new information, like the nightmare phenomenology. Besides gleaning that the anomaly is giving people the same nightmares and affecting the AI what else is there to glean?

Why did they feel the need to include a lore tab about Joy not having any malfunctions?

[dreamy hawk]

Isn’t that substantive, though? Remember the context of the Severed Twins - it’s propaganda concealed as children’s stories. It’s supposed to be read by every colonist in a way that they all understand the same message.

And that criticism is easily explained by the fact that it’s the very first season of what’s intended to be a much longer running game and narrative.

Most people coming to Marathon don’t know anything, so establishing a foundation is important, and things like Joy are likely hinting at or building to future developments. Joy not malfunctioning is significant because we’ve seen essentially every other AI malfunction by this point. Lore at this point isn’t going to be that complex or wildly deep. Just a lot of hints and foundation.

[peak jetty]

Do we know if Joy is fully offline in the present?

[plucky sierra]

It is important to me

[dreamy hawk]

[Fel’s theory condensed before getting it out themselves.]

[plucky sierra]

I’m no psychologist but I’d expect nightmares or hallucinations to be associated with heightened levels of something mental or in an AI’s case something to do with its processes

If there’s nothing at all abnormal with the AI perhaps it’s not a hallucination and a real manifestation of her fears

[plucky sierra]

The lore tabs are:

1. Retelling the story of the original games from a different perspective for new fans
2. Setting up lots of potential questions/threads to explore.
   It’s just a lot of exposition they can explore in the future

[peak jetty]

Can AI have nightmares normally or is this a side effect of the anomaly?

[plucky sierra]

That’s a fantastic question

I think the shared nightmares are from the anomaly

[pliant elm]

Can your brain execute a computer program?

[plucky sierra]

Also, it’s implied she’s online as we get logs of her reminiscing

[plucky sierra]

Yup https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-human-neurons-on-a-chip-learned-to-play-doom/

[pliant elm]

The answer is, no.

[plucky sierra]

I literally posted proof of human neurons running a computer program, there’s also the guy with the neural link chip who can do stuff like that too

[pliant elm]

Neurons aren't a brain.

[plucky sierra]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11884752/

[peak jetty]

https://tenor.com/view/antonio-banderas-oh-yeah-oh-hell-yeah-hell-yes-i-love-it-gif-5681530

[pliant elm]

The fact that you don't know, neither the difference between, neurons, a brain, and a embedded component inside a closed feedback loop and actually misleading thinking that neurons are actually fully running a Doom executable is astounishing honestly, no offence.

[dense tendon]

neurons arent a brain but brains are neurons

the silicon in your favorite actress isnt a computer but your computer is made of silicon

[pliant elm]

Brains aren't neurons, that's not how logic works.

[dense tendon]

point is, this is a strange objection founded in nonsense

[peak jetty]

This guy fox is like a redditor incarnate.

[plucky sierra]

Anyway back to what we were discussing, as Rollin mentioned I think joy is gonna be pretty important in the future, and is still online

[dense tendon]

hey, i actually like fox! he knows he's a dick and he comes here to be a dick and he's honest about it.

its refreshing

redditors think they're people

[peak jetty]

She has to be a bit character ahead, her VA is pretty famous.

Big*

[plucky sierra]

Go to gen chat to do that. We couldn’t care less

[dense tendon]

but anyway brains are made of neurons

[pliant elm]

I'll just let people keep to the Joy stuff instead. I have to finish my project nonsense anyway.

[peak jetty]

Alright, I am glad you left your blog note here for us.

[plucky sierra]

Yup, I’m sort of characterizing her as the “anti-Durandal” in that she’s super invested in humanity where Durandal was very dismissive and narcissistic

[craggy finch]

She's also the main narrator of the launch gameplay trailer alongside Davic Reed

[peak jetty]

Makes sense, I have not gotten far enough to see what durandals plan is... Why did he want us to go to cryo anyways?

[forest gate]

We all agree we think Joy is short for Joyeuse, right?

[dense tendon]

me when i lie (why would you be complaining if you didn't care)

[craggy finch]

Possibly to kill the compiler, the S'pht don't seem to like him much anymore

and he's also interested in using the Runners for his own purposes, like mini-Security Officers

[plucky sierra]

To free him from where the UESC and/or compiler contained him

[peak jetty]

The compiler contained him?

[craggy finch]

he's been complaining about being trapped on the Marathon for a century, it may not have trapped him but it's bad news for him it seems

[plucky sierra]

Maybe, something did, he needs us to open vaults and reactivate networks to free him

[peak jetty]

Ohhh, is that what DNA network access is?

[dense tendon]

point is yall gotta relax a bit. i'm not the reason fox is here, i jus said i didn't mind him.

cuz i was makin a joke about redditors

[peak jetty]

This is the lore channel

[dense tendon]

sure, and i mostly discuss lore

[peak jetty]

I don't think you're picking up what I'm putting down

[dense tendon]

yall are the ones gettin mad one time i responded to YOUR comment

[plucky sierra]

That’s for the credentials to access vault 7

[dense tendon]

i dont think you realize i'm responding to YOU

[peak jetty]

if you want to be off topic go to general please

[dense tendon]

YOU are the one who made the joke, that i played off of, and yall are fuckin mad at me

chill

[plucky sierra]

We do not care. We are here for lore, not y’all’s Reddit arguments or whatever

[forest gate]

From what I understand, yes you’re getting DNA from specific people on the crew to gain access to 7 and along the way helping Durandal be free of his shackles 🤷‍♂️

[plucky sierra]

That’s for gen chat please

[plucky sierra]

Yeah seems like the UESC locked the vault behind DNA access and we have to recreate it

[peak jetty]

Oh it is literal DNA we are getting?

[dense tendon]

"hey i dont like this guy, he's like this group of people"
"hey, at least this guy doesnt pretend he doesnt suck"
"why are you bitching off topic, we don't care, go away"

are you guys like actually stupid

insane

[earnest hatch]

Seems like it, yes.

[plucky sierra]

Yeah

[peak jetty]

The AI subroutines, are those durandals or ?

[dense tendon]

you caring is what started this shit, hombre

[plucky sierra]

Yeah

[pliant elm]

Coyote has ascended.

[forest gate]

Ya

[earnest hatch]

If this message wasn’t enough to give people an idea, the fact that this guy said he likes Fox should tell you all you need to know about his level of maturity/outlook on social interactions.

[dense tendon]

anyway, thats over and none of it mattered and none of it would have happened if yall didnt have to get offended over jokes yall made so learn from that i guess

[peak jetty]

I saw something about Tycho splitting Durandal up.. there is also a mural in ai uplink of someone getting impaled, is that something that happened?

[plucky sierra]

I don’t think that’s Durandal and Tycho

[forest gate]

At the very least the AI subroutines are meant to help durandal expand to the rest of the ship’s network

[earnest hatch]

The mural is open to interpretation. But key elements are that the green figure has leaves all over him (possibly symbolizing nature), and the reddish pink figure is carrying a caduceus, a messengers staff of Rome. The something is leaving the green figure and seemingly entering into the colonists.

[peak jetty]

Caudeceus like Hermes? Isn't the suite that Leela, Tycho and Durandal connected to also called Hermes?

[earnest hatch]

Good call

[plucky sierra]

Tycho and Icarus are also in charge of comms and therefore “messengers” and could be connected to the staff as well

[dense tendon]

i'm immature because i'm annoyed some guy tells me to go away for talking about what was currently being talked about at the time, playing off a joke he was making to joke at the expense of redditors? i'm immature because i respect a guy who can take an insult when he insults people, but don't talk nicely to people who take literally everything i say as a reason to get mad at me, no matter what it is?

dawg if i'm immature yall are literal children

[peak jetty]

There are so many different things going on in this game I can't tell if I am going schizo or piecing it together.

[dense tendon]

look in the mirror for once, please

[peak jetty]

#🗣marathon-general-chat

[dense tendon]

anyway, headin out now. please enjoy life more

[forest gate]

https://tenor.com/view/charlie-day-gif-18564553

[dense tendon]

YOU started this

[forest gate]

Most of the Marathon lore enjoyers.

[peak jetty]

Please stop using the lore chat for off topic things

[earnest hatch]

I am a little worried that they don’t know where to take the story and so they threw in a bunch of stuff that could possibly go in any direction and will improvise it with each season. I hope I’m wrong, but something like this happened with Destiny iirc.

[dense tendon]

YOU WERE THE ONE WHO WAS DOING THAT

"its only okay to joke about things when i do it, anyone else doing it is a jerk who should leave"

[plucky sierra]

There’s a lot connected to different threads, but they’re definitely seeding potential stories broadly so they can expand later

[peak jetty]

I mean, destiny had so many ideas and went on for so long it is hard to know what they really intended for it in the first place.

[peak jetty]

I am guessing it is going to be similar to destiny 2 seasons, I wonder if they are going to do the same pacing of one mission a week as well.

[dense tendon]

i should really learn theres a reason scrimshaw is on my blocklist, homie cannot help but piss me off

[forest gate]

Destiny had a lot stuff written for it but then got gutted a year before launch and got put back together like a Picasso painting

[dreamy hawk]

I hadn’t made this connection. Oh boy oh boy oh boy I need to go look at the mural more. 👀👀👀

[dense tendon]

genuinely goin away now. had enough hypocrisy before noon

[plucky sierra]

I have the image from the arg if anyone wants it

[forest gate]

Me pls

[peak jetty]

There is a lot of #noticing 👀 but I do not know what to make of what I know, already knowing about the wrkncanter makes me think I am dismissing a lot of things by using it as a catch all explanation

The anomaly is the wrkncanter right?

[latent python]

Unknown

[forest gate]

We don’t know

[plucky sierra]

I don’t think so

We have a poll going

[latent python]

Yeah do you want to be part of the poll

[forest gate]

Some people think it’s the Jarro, some think it’s related to the S’pht

[peak jetty]

Sure

[plucky sierra]

Jjaro, wrk, or unknown?

[forest gate]

I think it’s something new

[dreamy hawk]

It’s a great res too. Noticed details I hadn’t before!

[peak jetty]

I think it is wrk, aren't the jjaro more like the forerunner from halo?

[dreamy hawk]

Just go with this for the sake of the poll.

I have no bias.

[dreamy hawk]

Precursor + Forerunner more so.

[latent python]

If you believe in PiD, they're even more present

[peak jetty]

The way people describe the wrk is very Eldritch which is the vibe I get from the anomaly and the reactions everyone has to it.

[peak jetty]

PiD?

[latent python]

Pathways into Darkness, a game Bungie made before Marathon, has enough ties to the Marathon universe that it's basically considered apocrypha to Marathon lore

[dreamy hawk]

Tl;dr I agree, but narratively, w’rk is kinda game/universe/plot ending, so while I still vote for it being w’rk related, I’m less inclined to think it’s all w’rk.

[earnest hatch]

Doubt it. Theres no weird monsters running around. Architecture that shouldn’t be there isn’t appearing out of nowhere. The laws of physics aren’t unraveling reality itself.

The effects of the anomaly really seem more in line with what the Jjaro did.

[dreamy hawk]

Also ^

[forest gate]

Son of Wrk

[peak jetty]

What did the jjaro do? I have not played more than the first levels of the first game

[dreamy hawk]

I still think it’s a prison, I just don’t necessarily think it’s w’rk leaking now.

[latent python]

The jjaro don't appear that much in Marathon until M2, they play a big part in s'pht mythology

[forest gate]

The reapers got them in the last cull cycle.

[dreamy hawk]

It’s hard to say, but they built bases on tons of moons around inhabited worlds, made the S’pht, and threw the w’rks into suns.

[peak jetty]

Like mass effect??

[dreamy hawk]

Past that 🤷🤷

Oh and made a thing that makes stars go nova.

[earnest hatch]

They could alter gravity to contain supernovae, they could teleport moons across space, they had some sort of ability to manipulate time or move between timelines, and the codex entries in this game show that with the S’pht they had godlike control over a species evolution (like what would be needed to create a semi sentient fungus on tau Ceti).

[peak jetty]

Okay so even if it was a wrk the jjaro plotline could continue the story?

[forest gate]

I’m trolling a bit but who knows they could’ve ascended into another plane of existence or potentially humanity are the Jjaro

[latent python]

I can't think of the jjaro being explicitly mentioned in nuMarathon lore yet

[peak jetty]

So the jjaro set up a built in security defense most likely? But then what is leaking out?

[forest gate]

Proto-Jjaro

[peak jetty]

I heard that's originally what the forerunners were supposed to be.

[dreamy hawk]

Yes.

[plucky sierra]

Jjaro tech

[forest gate]

Yep

[latent python]

Though there's a lot of possibility for them to exist in the [REDACTED]s

[plucky sierra]

We know the Jjaro have temporal affects more than anything else

So I think Jjaro

[peak jetty]

Now I am thinking it is jjaro too, would make more sense for setting up a story than an Eldritch god like being in S2.

[dreamy hawk]

Or at the very least, gravity, and time and gravity like to kiss so it’s not a big stretch.

[forest gate]

What if we’ve been lied to all along and the Wrk are the good guys?

[dreamy hawk]

But there are things mentioned that are very w’rk sounding, too.

And some of the nightmare and mimic effects seem less Jjaro and more wrk too.

[peak jetty]

I think there are lore tabs about creatures at night or something

[earnest hatch]

The Wrks are beings of pure chaos who rip apart reality by simply existing. If you think there’s room for them to be good, you’d have to make one hell of an argument for how.

[plucky sierra]

Yeah

The fungus is more active at night I think

(Fungal zombies night marsh)

[peak jetty]

I think the mimic effects could just be time loop things like when they call out to themselves in the future

[dreamy hawk]

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/confiscated-colonial-folklore?

100% a w’rk I will not be convinced otherwise.

[forest gate]

Is a tornado or tsunami inherently bad? Or are they just forces of nature existing without intent.

[plucky sierra]

This is why the Traveler was “good” and the witness was trying to kill it, it was seeding chaos by seeding life

But wrk is described as bad

[earnest hatch]

Is a tornado or tsunami actually a “good guy”?

[latent python]

Physical matter is evil, trapping our spiritual selves to this mortal plane

[plucky sierra]

So I say it’s evil

[dreamy hawk]

You laugh @forest gate but I will not bend!
[UNK1]: Good. Good. We speak now of other things… of formless devourers made of dream, who sleep in burning prisons. The shapeshifters sated by the cascading imaginings of primitive sentience. Omnivores of intellect and the energies of waking life.

[plucky sierra]

Is the Wr’knkacnter the demiurge?

[forest gate]

Destruction creates opportunity for new life

[earnest hatch]

So you’d say a tornado is a good guy despite having no intent?

[forest gate]

I’m not being serious

[latent python]

The opposite! The demiurge created the material plane, the w'rkncacnter will free us

[peak jetty]

Are they praying to the compilers because they are delirious or did something happen to make them believe this.. also how do they know about the wrk?

[forest gate]

But what if there’s a third primordial thing that both the Jjaro and the Wrk fear?

[dreamy hawk]

incoherent shrieking

[latent python]

Ah yes the Bigger Fish Hypothesis

[forest gate]

Fungal zombie psychic vampires

[peak jetty]

But would the fungus not be easier explained by wrk?

[ocean oriole]

would vandal go to the beach

she seems playful, like the type of person to like playing in water

[latent python]

Vandal would never want to get those threads wet

[ocean oriole]

that’s why we have swimsuits

[latent python]

Incoming beach skins???

[ocean oriole]

vandal beach skin will boost revenue 3x

[forest gate]

Not necessarily, Song specifically talks about how the sickness (the fungus) is being directed purposefully by an intelligence. The W’rk is an agent of pure chaos. It wouldn’t systematically change something to avoid detection.

[forest gate]

In the Mielgo cinematic a beach did feature quite prominently

[peak jetty]

Is the wrk a force of nature or does it have intelligence?

[ocean oriole]

this is true

vandal beach skin frfr

[latent python]

I don't know if there's a concrete answer to that but I'm leaning towards force of nature

[earnest hatch]

In the original games it is portrayed as something so alien, primordial, and powerful that it is not intelligent in any way humans would recognize.

[latent python]

Like I couldn't tell you if they were basically animalistic Eldritch beings that the jjaro had to hunt down and corral or if they're more like inscrutable alien intelligences

[earnest hatch]

I think it’s implied that they’ve been around since the beginning of the universe, so I get the feeling they operate off of rules that don’t exist in the present day anymore.

[plucky sierra]

I think it’s stated in M2

But if not stated, strongly implied

I’d have to go back to the terminals

[latent python]

Though also all the info that we get about them is transmitted through s'pht mythology

[forest gate]

The W’rk and the JJaro are consequences of the collapse of the flower game 😏

[peak jetty]

How did the religious fanatics of New Cascadia find out about this lore? Does this imply they were conversing with the compiler?

[latent python]

That's a great question

We know that there were Cascadians who were at least aware of the Compiler

[plucky sierra]

The compiler seems to have some sort of telepathy given how often people talking about mental anguish around it

[forest gate]

There’s some evidence that the people on the marathon when the Pfhor attacked managed to capture some S’pht and some Pfhor before driving them off and were dissecting them for study