📚marathon-lore-discussion

[dense tendon]

the Reynard the Fox cycles are where the character of Ysengrim comes from, btw!

[storm frigate]

:O

[dense tendon]

Reynard's uncle. Guy is basically a stuffy monk-type (then aristocracy) who gets outwitted and bullied by Reynard's antics.

probably why he's tied to Coyote in Gunnerkrigg, Reynard is like a more morally upright Coyote.

where the mythical Coyote is the way he is to teach you what not to be, Reynard was the way he was to show that the common man (the peasantry) was not at all powerless against the whims of the elite so long as they kept their wits about them.

which is to say, Reynard was a very early example of "Eat the Rich"

its also like a medieval version of tom and jerry, tbh, shits hilarious

[unreal slate]

Thinkable Cheeseburger

[dense tendon]

that jus happens when you leave a drinkable one out too long

it starts to Have Opinions

cheeseburger rampancy

[eternal shell]

it usually lasts until it meets the also rampant onion in the fridge

if the onion ever loses, there's the mayonaise

so yeah i went and got a second fridge. seemed safer that way

[keen plank]

Indeed. You know your stuff.

[earnest hatch]

It’s only a matter of time before this becomes actual branding from McDonalds.

[eternal shell]

"it's capable of suffering, and therefore tastes better. just like real meat!"

[sharp vine]

More like Sinkable cheeseburger with how humanity is doing in marathon

[eternal shell]

naw dw our bois SO and durandal will handle stuff

it will involve: dual shotties, computer terminals, the least accurate assault rifle ever invented, and high concepts

[eternal shell]

https://i.redd.it/k93gvcs5thvg1.jpeg well this just seems relevant to being a runner in general

[drifting garnet]

It’s fine, the M75’s recoil and ridiculous bullet spread is balanced out with the under barrel grenade launcher

[eternal shell]

love that under barrel grenade launcher

i see the main fire mode as a shotgun except it fires each pellet one at a time

which goes to show shotguns are simply the best video game weapon category and there's no contest, can i get a wstr buff

[dense tendon]

i got a lot of time to read. and i like reading.

[keen plank]

You're in good company. There's nothing like a great book.

[latent python]

The WSTRs almost flip reload

[keen plank]

The gun has great animations.

[weary portal]

Bruh

It just hit me, the drinkable cheeseburger number is 187. The same number police have used in the past and artists in hip hop music to say a murder has happened..I don’t think that is on accident

[drifting garnet]

Which, you know a feat that SO manages to do that you rarely see most video game protagonists, including Doomguy, ever achieve? Dual-wielding two double-barreled shotguns at once. Doesn’t even need a power-up to do it!

[latent python]

I want a boss fight against someone dual wielding shotguns and doing flip reloads

A vault full of WSTRs ready

[keen plank]

They really do love that number.

[latent python]

What if they just add WSTR dual wields in a patch and don't even tell us

[eternal shell]

i'd love that

i'd go two shotties all the time

[latent python]

Someone equips two WSTRs and suddenly they both pop out

[keen plank]

Duel wielding would crack the game’s balancing. Consider how good the V11 Punch is by itself.

[eternal shell]

it cracked the balancing back then too

and it was awesome

[stable phoenix]

I’d like to see a runner shell where its ultimate is it’ll very quickly 3d print certain weapons to dual wield and when the ult is over it dissolves or breaks or something

[long pollen]

red implants type beat

red implants should do shit that makes you start being like mjolnir

[shell needle]

It was

[eternal shell]

feel free to ping when replying :)

[dreamy hawk]

Ping.

[eternal shell]

thanks

i'm orange now btw

[dreamy hawk]

I noticed, don’t worry.

[eternal shell]

but soon i wont be!

[dense tendon]

descartes when hes excited to stop thinking tomorrow:

[eternal shell]

das the power of partying

[dreamy hawk]

I’ll wait eagerly in suspense.

[keen plank]

Hmmmm, interesting. One of Traxus' slogans is "Control today to build tomorrow." Pretty fitting.

[gilded heron]

looking for B Strauss books

[dreamy hawk]

On perimeter? Gl. Haven’t found a single one.

[gilded heron]

yeah, Im usually able to collectibles easily on dire marsh compared to perimeter

[drifting garnet]

…uh…meanwhile, on Perimeter I’ve managed to get all of the Strauss books. >>

At most I can say it’s the one set of blue tier Treasures that took me the longest. I managed to finish Borger and Bonsai trees, EZ

[gilded heron]

same here, lots of bonsais

want to learn more about the AIs tho

[keen plank]

Key rooms help a lot with codex collectibles.

[gilded heron]

have never found one of those

[eternal knoll]

farm the overflow boss

[dreamy hawk]

The game has chosen one collectible from each map it showers me with and it’s the only one.

Fun times.

[dreamy hawk]

So does murdering folks who’ve been to the key rooms.

[analog jungle]

I just got the 3rd cat lore, "feilini troubleshooting"

kitty dug 13 metres straight down into the ground

1. wow
2. what the fuck is under Dire Marsh god damn

[sudden pollen]

Wtf, crazy

[keen plank]

Whatever is underneath the surface of Tau Ceti is...VERY bad.

It's implied to potentially be a dreaming W'rkncacnter whose cage is leaking.

[analog jungle]

I can't wait for the raid where we're led by a legion of Binguses to fight it

[keen plank]

One day we will know what the ghost cat is. But before we get there, they are Bingus and they are special and cute.

[gilded heron]

Has anyone ever killed him Solo?

Im about to run it

[keen plank]

Yes. But be careful with the Wraith warden. Take you time, keep a healthy range from them, watch out for the other mooks they summon, and make sure you have enough ammo.

I just taught two new players how to kill it a few days ago.

[gilded heron]

This is insane

[sudden pollen]

Repeater/Stryder/twin tap from a rooftop are excellent for the wraith

[gilded heron]

I was thinking a bully/repeater or bully/sniper

[keen plank]

Yep. When I killed it days ago I just tapped my hardline at medium range while keeping it distracted and kiting as-needed.

Bully doesn't have the range and the Wraith Warden has its own, modified BRRT that will eat through you.

[gilded heron]

thats good to know

[keen plank]

A Sniper could certainly work, but I'm woried about the fire rate.

[gilded heron]

and in case other runners come around

[latent python]

why is rook affected by heat cascade but UESC bots aren't

[next sinew]

Maybe the remote take over fries their remote protection

[dreamy hawk]

I have an unsatisfying answer. 😂

[jade wagon]

Rooks aren't actually designed for military applications, iirc they started as cargo bots. So they're less armored

[dreamy hawk]

That’s a more satisfying answer.

[midnight robin]

So im assuming the new flood will be called 'the contagion' ?

[eternal knoll]

easy if ya know the right spot. on the hill by the lil two story tower

his spawn rate’s lower in solo tho

[rotund stump]

aside from being cargo bots the fact that we ported our consciousness in there means we can feel all the pain that a normal bot could not

[dreamy hawk]

You mean the original flood.

[dreamy hawk]

This would mean the rooks have robust enough sensors/nervous systems to feel pain, which I don’t think is the case.

[scenic iron]

Thinking of Rooks how are they taken over by runners?

[jade wagon]

Yes and no.
UESC bots likely have tactile sensors to detect collisions, calibrate grip, things like that. For example, Rooks need to feel collisions or impacts, to react to hazards during labor.
Runners can likely feel that tactile feedback.
Their systems may not be as accurate or all-encompassing as a Shell's nervous system

[jade wagon]

They're stolen labor drones retrofitted with a "limited-use neural sync adapter."
Recuperation is a standard feature, whereas Signal Mask is a modification

[scenic iron]

oh ok thanks for the info!

[humble vessel]

so are the main runner shells themselves based on real people on the lore? since thief is being described from a heist that happened a while ago maybe it was mapped around that thief

[pure wagon]

wiped lobby and exfiled every blue lore item in cryo archive https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1494793469103833311/1494904515378544780/image.png?ex=69e44dd2&is=69e2fc52&hm=70b80c8b1ef8b64d493080c240669165ea16cea230fe557b6f48412ea163cc06&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1222&height=590

im doing my part 🫡

[dreamy hawk]

COMMON SHELL SERIES: The ICON personality series is 100% aftermarket neural support tech featuring a life-like facial replica and vocalization pattern of SEKGEN's former lead SHELL Science Director, Dr. Yoki Samura.

Thief is, at least, but I’m not certain about the others resembling specific figures.

[humble vessel]

destroyer being the security officer for no reason

[rotund stump]

smth like that yeah

feel like necessary senses for survival as a study would long precede biomata tech but would be essential

fact that we can hijack a whole cargo bot frame and be comfy in it for a short while implies we know what systems to subvert into things we can port our consciousness into

not nearly as accurate or tactile as actual biomata shells but yeah

[jade wagon]

Exactly. It'd be basic sensors for force, acceleration, and impacts, but nowhere near as advanced as the synthetic nervous system of a biomata.

[rotund stump]

as well as lack of personality matrix since everybody's pain threshold is different and is likely also included in programming per matrix

rook probs has basic things like component damage diagnosis and that's it

[jade wagon]

Lol yeah, surely someone has tried hijacking neural sync tech into things like drones or roombas

[rotund stump]

DER comes calling

[dreamy hawk]

Rook has audio lines that suggests it’s not actually that comfy + prolonged usage will lead to neural degradation.

[rotund stump]

well yeah it's lacking several essential features

I say for a short while since tau ceti runners kinda don't count since anomaly degrades synthsilk and neural connection

but sol runners are pretty comfy for the long haul like charter

[dreamy hawk]

I don’t believe that would extend to Rooks, though. Their limitations aren’t inherent to TCIV, just magnified.

[rotund stump]

I mean like as in general connection time

[dreamy hawk]

Gotcha

[rotund stump]

tau ceti runners' "short while" is the same as the "short while" of a rook

on field I mean

[visual lynx]

there hasn't been any kind of new content or story development since cryo archive right? I can't recall if I actually saw someone talking about that or if I just dreamt that I did.

[rotund stump]

no developments yet yeah

[dreamy hawk]

You’ve missed a ton, actually. There’s a whole romance novel Durandal left for us to find about the SO.

[rotund stump]

well we

weren't supposed to tell you that

damn it

[dreamy hawk]

Pfhorrest ships Durandal and the SO harder than anyone; I couldn’t keep it from him.

[lean swan]

Why is it that vandal glows the same collors when useing the atl .... vs when your standing next to the anomaly wall

[rotund stump]

atl?

[lean swan]

TIME TO MOVE! you know the no heat run.

The rb lb

[earnest hatch]

I think that’s just a coincidence.

[rotund stump]

I don't main vandal enough or at all to know that 😭

but yeah likely just a visual coincidence

vandal's amp is an extension of biocyber atheletes overcharging their own mechanicals for an advantage in the games back in sol and the original creator from mida took it as inspo when modifying the baseline shells that eventually became her

also makes sense for such a flamboyant character that yells "I'm here" whenever they get in somebody's sight lol

[rotund stump]

also kinda why she can withstand so much mechanical mangling from her abilities ala the disruptor from her hand, she's made for this (although inhibitors are required for a vandal user's arm to not feel the recoil's effects which is described as arm-breaking per shot)

[earnest hatch]

Is there some types of materials/salvage that gets shared among teammates when you extract with it? Like purple or gold tier?

[rotund stump]

nope, everything you take you keep for yourself and yourself only

anomalies follow about the same logic but your teammates also get the related codex entry

[sage lark]

Gold salvage gets shared

Anomaly event item gives your teammates stuff aswell

[lean swan]

If it dropes at all.

[unreal sierra]

people in general are trying to get dates when runners are supposed to be skinning eachother 😩

[autumn surge]

😭

[spring dagger]

MIDA quest thingamajigs in TRUTH/LIES (idk the exact codex entry)
|| am i tripping or is the unknown colonist that talks with MASK in the codex _gantry? he sounds very familiar||

[burnt nebula]

theres a bunch of examples of the same voice actor playing multiple people in the codex's

it's so obvious too lol

that jasper dude who survived and ran away from the colony also is the voice for one of the AIs

and when you complete all Sekiguchi contracts you get a thankyou message from a bunch of scientists, one of them is so obviously Straus

[craggy finch]

Thats weird because Fred Tatasciore has some range

[burnt nebula]

apparently not. the scientist is only slightly different. exact same mannerisms and everything

[craggy finch]

maybe that's his designated scientist voice

[tepid oxide]

it seems like we’re in an alternate universe from the original marathon or am I missing something

[plucky sierra]

Gold and higher salvage shares, alien alloys and synapse cubes and such

The ganglion

[craggy finch]

Stuff in Marathon 2 didn't happen at least, there hasn't been anything that directly contradicts Marathon 1 and a few snippets seem to line up with the original events

[forest gate]

after 137 hours of play, i've finally unlocked blue shields for purchase at NuCal

Feels like there should have been a codex entry for that

[tropic basin]

We're probably in Rise Robot Rise or a similar timeline.

[bold karma]

is there a lore reason why JOY has such a sexy voice

[sharp echo]

Jennifer English, she was ShadowHeart in Baldur's Gate 3

She's also Maelle in Expedition 33 but her character in that game's 16.

Kinda funny that Ben Starr was also in E33 and both of them play AI's in this game.

[sudden pollen]

Ben Starr is a legend

[unreal slate]

who voices the drinkable cheeseburger?

I do

[sharp echo]

Wrong, also Ben Starr

[sudden pollen]

Me

[hidden geyser]

dont believe all the lies, i voiced it

[keen plank]

It does seem pretty clear. And Jasper’s VA does voice one of the colony subroutines.

They reused multiple VAs here and there. Like I doubt we’ve seen the last of, say, Karlach’s VA. All she is currently is a UESC officer.

Darin DePaul is both Gaius and Gus Moraine as well. And Reinhardt if you’re interested.

Fred T as Straus is great casting, but I can’t stop putting his character into 76. Like Straus is way more important and immoral but it’s the same vocal cadence.

[keen plank]

@tepid oxide , the key divergence point is the end of Marathon 1. All of the first game's events happen, then things get weird with the different timelines.

[keen plank]

Like everything is canon but because infinite is so weird we don’t know exactly when we are. But we do know we’re the latest game in a timeline that’s not the epilogue of Infinity.

[plucky sierra]

Is this supposed to be replying to a different conversation?

Or just me

[keen plank]

Yep. Reply pinged to the wrong person. 🤦‍♂️

[plucky sierra]

On that topic, I want new lore reaffirming those concepts

[keen plank]

We’ll likely get it drip fed to us. We saw it with Cryo, and we’ll see it with Nightmarsh.

I’m curious as to when we’ll actually get our first signs of Thothandel watching us. Assuming Bingus is not their avatar.

Durandal having a cat avatar fits their personality very well. And the fact they control every door at will…

[plucky sierra]

The cat wasn't controlling doors, they detected no signal originating from the cat. The doors were being controlled for the Cat

imo

Still durandal but not in Bingus

[keen plank]

Hmmmm. Very interesting.

[earnest hatch]

There’s a lot of felinis that experienced weird behavior and malfunctions. I suspect the source has more to do with the Anomaly and weird Jjaro tech affecting them somehow.

[keen plank]

We’re also missing 4-6 of the other proper AI as well.

Arthur, Naraah, Lilith, Bastion and especially Icarus are all important and we haven’t seen much of them yet.

Personally, I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Leela and Tycho either. But Leela…I don’t really know how you work her back to the story.

Of all the AI, she probably suffered the worst. Which is crazy considering how Joy effectively went Rampant out of negligence and suicidal despair.

[earnest hatch]

Leela is either dead or in control of a multi-planetary computer network. That second one seems like a sweet deal.

[keen plank]

Didn’t her main hardware get kidnapped by a pirate species after being previously kidnapped and installed into the multi-planetary network of another species?

Like apparently she went very rampant very quickly after being installed and overworked. And eventually that species resigned themselves to the fact they’d never get her out of their systems.

She’s only a major character for the first third of Marathon one.

[drifting garnet]

Which I wonder with, considering what you find out about Joy later, it was a deliberate part to bring English in to get players to go “you made Shadowheart sad! How DARE you!!! ”

[earnest hatch]

She was taken by the Pfhor, captured by pirates, and sold to another species whose multi planetary network she spread throughout. That’s the last we heard of her, which makes sense.

How would you even “kidnap” an AI that already exists on hardware across multiple planets? Probably not possible without shutting down the entire net like they did with Traxus.

[keen plank]

Probably depends on the specific AI and their configurations.

I’m pretty sure each AI save for Bastion and maybe Icarus are Traxus 9 with Vulcan being far newer and more advanced.

Thothandel is far above all of them combined of course, and IDurandal is likely weaker but growing in strength.

I imagine Icarus and Bastion would be much more hardware centric considering Icarus is very much a network of satellites and Bastion was the first AI to reach Tau Ceti, being a broadly defensive system and scout.

[earnest hatch]

If any one of those AI had spread across multiple planets I still don’t think any pirates would be able to simply kidnap them.

[keen plank]

It’s tricky and we really don’t know much because she essentially disappears from second third of the story onward before getting kidnapped twice and then sold into slavery.

It’s implied she still hoping to be rescued by the Security Officer, but they never touched back on that plot thread.

[earnest hatch]

That wasn’t implied. And she wasn’t sold into slavery. You should read the M2 epilogue.

[sinful flare]

Guys are any of the audio logs from the codex online? I'm looking for one that I KNOW was a yt short but I can't find it anywhere now.

[digital plaza]

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/ / https://www.youtube.com/@Tasty_DODO

[dim lion]

Curious question; I’ve really been digging into Marathon’s writing, but have been looking for a place to find voice lines

Ik playing the game is ofc one way, but does anyone know if there is an archive 👀

[earnest hatch]

The link above has codex entries including their audio I think. I’ve also seen the faction quest cutscenes uploaded to YouTube.

[dim lion]

Mb, I mean runner voice lines

[earnest hatch]

Oh that I don’t know.

[random bear]

I'm still going through and unlocking the lore but ...so far || do you guys think that the AI could have also caused the ticks to go from dormant to aggressive unless I'm interpreting the events wrong, unless it was truly rapid evolution and nothing like the AI agitating the population in captivity without the humans knowing||

[burnt nebula]

im still piecing things together myself but i dont think we know for sure, the anomaly kinda keeps everything a guessing game for now

just made it out of cryo with a new subroutine, a tonne of lore, and a unique weapon lol

2 games in a row me and these random 2 dudes just dominated the entire lobby

havent had some new lore material in so long lol

keeping it for when i log back in. man those were some intense raids tho. some of the best ive had. def the best ive had on cryo

[lean phoenix]

idk if this is mentioned in a codex or not, but where are our shells manufactured? is there a ship in orbit that’s dropping them in?

[burnt nebula]

well they had to arrive on a ship by travelling there. and from the gameplay since it beams you up into the sky then i guess you're going back to your ship where you are also made and sent down

but, maybe someone can correct me, theres also the possibility of your shell being made elsewhere and DCON'd to wherever

[lean phoenix]

yeah that’s what i assumed! i just wasn’t sure if there was a specific codex entry that went into the mechanics of it

[burnt nebula]

not that i'm aware of so far. i havent read all the lore though, only what i have unlocked in game

would be a very small chance the runners are not being made on board their own ship though. seems like it would be more efficient to not be teleporting things over long distances

i'd love to see some longer in depth cinematic material about the runners and the weaveworms and sekiguchi etc

i wanna know when does a shell become conscious. like is it essential to have it in there early while it's being created

[earnest hatch]

I think shells are operated by real human minds.

[burnt nebula]

Yeah, I mean when does the mind go into the shell. Like during the creation process or near the end?

Do they wake up like sleep after a surgery?

Do they feel themselves being made if the mind is in there from an early stage?

I need to know these things

[random bear]

Based on the intro and the cinematic it seems like the shells are built as your previous shell is destroyed, no one is unique other than their mind that controls the shell which is probably stored in a location off world somewhere they seem to do a calibration before deploying after a shell death

Kinda like micky 17 lol but it seems like with every regen the mind loses memories of their past self or maybe the objects were fake implanted memories

Like when the assassin shell couldn't recognize his childhood self in that photo

[burnt nebula]

what if its all a lie though

we could find out we're completely synth, being fed fake memories

[random bear]

It's a possibility

[burnt nebula]

im ready to have my ryan gossling moment in bladerunner, finding out im not really the main character

[random bear]

It seems like they can only remember up to a certain point they don't even remember death

Actually scratch that

They do remember death cause it seems like they go through the calibration every time

And vandal seems to be like "this again"

[burnt nebula]

i saw a weird lore video today about death and arachne. i dunno how much of it was canon

something about there being a moment right between death and being uploaded back to cyac that is not transferred, and arachne is really interested specifically in that moment

[random bear]

I dunno anyone who would upload their consciousness willingly to be in a perpetual state of debt and additional suffering unless the minds that were used to program the shells were from already fallen soldiers or prisoners of some sort

[burnt nebula]

it could have been sold to them as a totally different experience to what it really is

the corpos be corrupt like that

you just didnt read the fine print

also. i hear life on Mars is pretty rough. lot of people who might want tf outta there

[random bear]

Yeah thats why alot of em went on the marathon

[burnt nebula]

that's where a lot of the BoBs came from i think. they figured life on the Marathon would be better than Mars, anything to get away form Mars even working and dying on a ship and never seeing another planet sounded better

Well... not the BoBs but the people who would birth the BoBs lol

And still, apparently Mars had some wild fashion sense. Vandal is based on some rebellious goth adjacent sub culture. So how bad was it really on Mars?

They could afford lipstick and nice clothes

Maybe there was plenty of that but not plenty of food

[eternal shell]

[SGLE]: Applying for the expedition was my uncle's idea. He wanted to be able to see the sun. Breathe clean air. Eat plants we grew ourselves. 

[SGLE]: I just wanted a change! Anything was better than burning bodies. 

[JOY]: Your records indicate that you and your uncle both specialized in "waste treatment" while stationed on Mars. 

[SGLE]: Yes.```

sounds like it got pretty damn bad at places

[random bear]

Theres also talk of what was done to earth as well lol it got bad there too

Also for cryo storage lol do you guys think that those who are still in cryo sleep on the marathon could be unfrozen

Like that cow.. lol

[unreal sierra]

deadass some random guy gets woken up by a vandal and asked for loot

[eternal shell]

bob be like "hey guys what'd i miss :)"
"guys :)"
"what'd i miss :)"

[random bear]

The bobs were out and about during the original games lmao i wonder if any of them are still wandering and hiding in the narrow corridors of the marathon after the events of the original

[burnt nebula]

Why does it feel so right that a Mars colony would be a hell hole, and also spawn some really awesome subcultures that end up looking like Vandal?

I wanna know what music those people listen to

[random bear]

Smooth Jazz

Ambient spa music lmfao

[eternal shell]

Ｖａｐｏｒｗａｖｅ

[burnt nebula]

Nah its gotta be some sick metal / rave / DnB kinda stuff

[random bear]

I feel like it'd be something close to machine girl or some other aggro music

[burnt nebula]

i wanna go to a rave on mars

[random bear]

But who knows how future peeps flip music maybe they thought that style of music was too conformist and flipped to just relaxing music

Maybe kidz bop jams

[past gull]

do we know what Naraah’s role was as colony AI?

[dense tendon]

given the resemblence vandal holds in my eyes to yolandi visser, i headcanon that there is a large south african diaspora going on mars-side, leading to a sort of zef revival.

die antwoord in space, baby

[earnest hatch]

Aquatics and water management apparently. #📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[drifting garnet]

finishes Co-Evol 3/5

"Hey Nona, is all this safe? ONI was starting to get worried about all these experiments."

"...ehhh don't worry about it, it'll all be fine. After all, Nona knows best!!!"

[craggy finch]

Someone remake Chappie with Rook, Vandal and Assassin

[jolly hound]

So it seems pretty obvious to me that the thing causing the anomaly is a w'rkncacnter, considering that in instances involving it in marathon infinity, things were described as "new physics", and the anomaly is also described that way. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

[crisp crest]

The contagion was a Pfhor bio-weapon deployed as revenge for their failed previous assault on the colony and the anomaly is the result of dormant Jarro technology or something I'm calling it. Maybe. Idk.....

[plucky sierra]

I don’t think so personally

[jolly hound]

What's your take on it? I'm very welcome to hearing theories

[plucky sierra]

Jjaro technology

The Anomaly displays sentience and directly targets humans without affecting native flora, A Wr'knkactner would be more random, chaotic.

[jolly hound]

Fair point. I just struggle to see motive behind unleashing it + the bioweapon.

[earnest hatch]

The main two camps are Jjaro tech or Wrkncacnter. I’m on team Jjaro because the effects of the anomaly are within their capability and a lot more tame and focused. If it was a wrk I would expect structures to appear out of nowhere, bizarre monsters, and artifacts that are functionally magic.

[plucky sierra]

Also most of the effects directly traceable to the Anomaly are temporal in origin and that may connect it more to the Jjaro than Wr'knkacnter. That is not to say it is not containing one, it displays a desire to prevent Humans from delving into the planet so it could be guarding it, but no telling yet.

W'rk	Jjaro	UNK
10	6	5
Is our latest count

[plucky sierra]

The Contagion originates from inside the Anomaly

[eternal knoll]

yea fair point

[jolly hound]

What about the possibility of tau cetti being a wrk prison like the sun? Would explain a lot + the shared dreams drawing people to explore the anomaly and planet.

Would also explain the bioweapon killing people on the planet preventing them from hypothetically unleashing the wrk

[earnest hatch]

Jjaro tech could explain all that as well.

With a wrk things should be way crazier even if it was only beginning to wake up.

[jolly hound]

I just struggle to see why the Jjaro would be hostile towards people unless it was for a reason. Especially since they cooperated with humanity in the past

[jolly hound]

I think shared dreams and the anomaly/ entire planet beckoning qualifies under that but that's just me.

[earnest hatch]

It could be malfunctioning, it could have been hacked by an AI, it could br protecting som thing. But my personal theory is that it’s all a test. A sufficiently advanced species would be able to handle all these challenges. If a species is destroyed by the anomaly then it means they are still too primitive to expand into the stars.

[plucky sierra]

They are trapped in places of significant gravity, and while time dilation and gravity are often correlated there is a couple codex entries that take the time to say it does not display gravitational effects so I don't think a normal planets gravity is strong enough considering they can swim on the surface of a sun. And while dreams are often attributed to Wr'knkancter (via PiD if it is canon), the shared nightmares are hallucinations of Human memories, in PiD the sleeping god only manifested its own dreams.

The Idea that the Anomaly is an intelligence protecting the planet for some reason makes the most sense to me, maybe its guarding a Wr'knkacnter, but I am skeptical about that. The dreams, contagion, anomaly all are connected towards getting rid of the Colonists

[eternal knoll]

could be "all these worlds are yours except europa" thing where the uesc specifically went to the planet they were told not to, wrk or no wrk...

one could also argue that if this wrk is the PiD one then maybe it has a specific grudge against humans now? shrug

[earnest hatch]

Having shared dreams and feeling a call to explore is mild and tame compared to what the Wrk does in PiD and in descriptions on Marathon. Not even sure that psychic effects were ever described as something a Wrk does.

[jolly hound]

What about that creature in temple of darkness? That's not confirmed to be a wrk is it?

[plucky sierra]

The temple of darkness? in PiD or the one from destiny?

Destiny is unconnected that way and the sleeping god in that regard was Nezerac who fed off of nightmares, one of many thematic parellels

[jolly hound]

Was talking about pathways into darkness.

[plucky sierra]

PiD is probably canon and if so, is a Wr'knkancter

but it manifests its own dreams, not any of the many humans who go inside

this could be explained away though

[eternal knoll]

otoh those dreams were things like cheesy humanlike mummies and stuff so it does kinda feel like they might wanna revisit the explanation for those familiar monsties?

dr song's phrasing is curious, "i don't know who made you a weapon..."

[jolly hound]

Was it ever explained how the temple held the wrk in PiD? I'm not super versed in that game as I haven't played it.

[eternal knoll]

(speaking of the contagion but it seems to apply across the board)

[earnest hatch]

The temple was created by the Wrk. It was part of its dreams.

[eternal knoll]

i beleive the wrk manifested the temple as it was dreaming...

[jolly hound]

I was under the impression that it was a prison of sorts. Thanks for clarifying

[eternal knoll]

i dont think theres any particular explanation for why its dream looks like ancient south american architecture

[jolly hound]

I'm prob in the Jjaro tech camp then tbh. Felwinter has a good point about the gravity aspect of the anomaly.

[eternal knoll]

you could suppose that the player character percieves it in a more comprehensible way...

[earnest hatch]

Actually, in the manual it explicitly states that the pyramid doesn’t match the style of any human pyramids in history. The cover of the game was drawn incorrectly.

[plucky sierra]

It was the meteor that killed the dinosaurs, buried way down deep, the pyramind and everything are dreams

[eternal knoll]

mm, interesting

i just think it would be very delightful if a pyramid appeared where the anomaly is

[jolly hound]

would make a cool map lol. Doubt that's happening though.

[plucky sierra]

I think the anomaly is Jjaro tech, there is still the potential for something inside it. Darius (when corrupted) says "Don't Search, Dont Dig, Dont Question. It Waits, Lingers, Loathes."

He could be talking about the Anomaly, or the Anomaly could be speaking through him

[earnest hatch]

He probably recognized a warning left by the Jjaro but translating it also broke him. Could be the Jjaro equivalent of a cognitohazard.

[jolly hound]

I feel like Darius not remembering that interaction after is more pointing to the latter.

[plucky sierra]

this is simply when Dr. Song asked for access to the seed vault, so maybe not translating anything

but one of the AI (Gabriel I think?) did an analysis and read the binary (SEEN) which is very interesting

[earnest hatch]

I meant he did it before that moment and that’s why in that moment he’s acting strange.

[jolly hound]

I mean, we already know that they built the data wall due to unimaginable amounts of data that is seemingly unpercievable/unparseable by humans.

I guess that could come from the anomaly but it states it comes from the planet itself so idk

[plucky sierra]

The Anomaly is in the Planet

I’m pretty sure that data harvesting is what caused the temporal eruption and the contagion

[eternal knoll]

making technical sense of the anomaly putting out a ton of data is curious...

you'd think you would require epic-scale measuring instruments to produce epic-scale data, no? we don't hear much about what tools theyre using to produce data on the anomaly. so it seems as if the anomaly itself is producing data, like you can somehow just hook memory right up to it and get... stuff?

[plucky sierra]

I mean I’m pretty sure the Kuzmin logs even calls the data streams or whatever happened “the anomaly” and that’s on perimeter

[jolly hound]

Isn't the perimeter the last area that humanity went? Pretty sure the Darsh troubles happened earlier.

Particularly the plague

[eternal knoll]

and how do the balloons help in storing or transferring this data, lol

having huge-scale data infrastructure makes sense to me when you're dealing with a large number of AIs. like you can see very large and long cables leading out of the outpost pinwheel and off into the distance. makes sense...

[plucky sierra]

The Kuzmin logs line up in a way to suggest people getting sick after the data harvesting event and even end with Dr. Song’s death so it’s about the same time

[jolly hound]

Dr Song has her final log in the data wall no?

[eternal knoll]

it's puzzling for the anomaly to produce an even greater shitload of data. is it the AIs or simialr programs that are interacting with the anomaly? what does that look like? using a geological drone to look inside the planet and seeing eerie blue light wouldn't give you a shitload of data to log, that would more be a stumper, you'd be stuck with no data...

[jolly hound]

Also true, good point

[eternal knoll]

it would be funny if the pfhor did in fact return to nuke the colony but those nukes got anomalously neutralized

[visual lynx]

I think the Anomaly is Wrk contained by Jjaro tech, that has now been compromised in a way that creates its own gravitational disturbances and allows the influence of the Wrk to leak

[austere elk]

the datawall/hauler and relays are how they're gathering data from the anomaly

[eternal knoll]

those all seem concerned with the transfer of data, no? is there not something being measured?

[austere elk]

its what those big arrays are going up into the sky are

what exactly, no clue

but they're some kind of instrument that's getting something

[eternal knoll]

it's as if they've got an enormous ethernet cable plugged directly into the anomaly

seemingly

it seems too fanciful that any earthly measuring tool could produce so much data on a completely mysterious anomaly that you need such large-scale infrastructure just to communicate it...

kuzmin describes whatever they're doing as "build(ing) towers to the goddamn sky to steal impossible data from the heart of a world..."

very odd, to skip over observation and go straight into data

[unreal sierra]

y’all, hear me out. we let durandal go rampant? :3c

[keen juniper]

let? hell the colonists forced him rampant

specifically Strauss did

[rotund stump]

not really the colonists just strauss

plus he's pre-picked to be one of the 3 potentially post-rampant metastable AIs before the pfhor knocked on the front door

little did strauss know durandal himself did it 💀

[past gull]

I especially love how Strauss speaks about why you'd need to delegate opening doors to an AI

"dude, they could open as you walk!!!"

[burnt nebula]

so according to the lore, the game really is way too clean

supposedly the colonists vehicles couldn't operate for a single day without needing to be scrubbed clean from spores

but 100 years later everything is all shiny and clean

doesn't make sense

the colony should be barely recognisable after 100 years, almost completely burried in dirt and covered in weeds and spores

unless we actually saw groups of lil cleaning drones flying around scrubbing stuff, but we dont

[past gull]

we don't see groups, but we know that at least some cleaning drones still operate

[pliant elm]

It's the future, you have to believe its good writing or the channel breaks down.

Lh'owon would be an ISO clean room with this writter.

[past gull]

and there might be a reason as to why the fungus infestations ceased

it's actually fairly explicitly stated if you follow the NuCal contract codex entries

[pliant elm]

If you do Cryo 6 you find out there's a cleaning lady that comes at 17:00 every day.

That's why there's a lockdown in Dire Marsh even.

[past gull]

there's other things to criticise about the narrative part of the game

we don't have to force criticism about things that actually make sense

[eternal knoll]

if anything this'd be more an issue of the art direction being out of step with the writing, than something the (any) writer did wrong

but yeah i think the uncanny too-clean feeling is just part of the effect that's being gone for there, and it being a point of mystery in the fiction too just heightens it

[past gull]

literally check NuCal contract codex entries for why everything isn't covered in spores

[eternal knoll]

im lookin for it... i know they remark about the lack of bodies

rivets in this game are represented by painted-on plusses

[pliant elm]

Yeah because the direction of this whole thing is a mess.

[sudden pollen]

You're assuming they can read

[pliant elm]

It's just businessly done game. They wanted to come up with 'some' game, regardless of what, then they checked what they had on the IP library rather than just making on from zero and trying to run on the reboots wave, so they went with Marathon.

Then game director just came with some generic game mode that's popular post-covid and they needed to snatch some random art somewhere regardless of what the IP they're working in, this could have been called Valorant 2, nobody would notice the difference.

Every piece of the game is just random stuff assorted and put together without any cohesion at all, it's just whatever's available on the market or the cheapest to do X or Y financially, lol.

I don't even call this a 'game'. I have no clue how even any sane game reviewer gave this a 9 or anything close of a 6 or a 7. This has to be the most product-driven project and less of a game I've probably yet to have seen after Fortnite asset-mess.

[past gull]

I woke up optimistic

[sudden pollen]

🥀

[past gull]

check Song’s final entry

[pliant elm]

Game reboots have to be done by the original creators, otherwise if you give this to 500 other people who haven't probably played even 5 minutes of the original, you're going to get this almost AI-slop of art, story and direction.

[past gull]

the game is definitely MVP, but what’s there is really solid. I don’t get why you’d freak out over it (especially the parts that actually make perfect sense)

[twin trout]

mr fox here likes to come here and spew things like this quite often

[pliant elm]

There's not even storywritting to this basically. Codex is basically just a copy-paster of the Warhammer Space Marines 2 system, here's an object from the Unreal Store, here's a bit or randomly made story about it.

[twin trout]

best nyot to engage with him :3

[pliant elm]

Yeah, game's story is garbage bro. If you think this is quality, I feel bad about you honestly.

[past gull]

name 10 books without googling

[pliant elm]

There's no story to this, its just a randomly made codex with no value-added narrative and of no interest, whole game is 99% a death match game. Rest is just some object-lore that fills a lot but tells you nothing of narrative.

In 100 lines of text and voice acting, maybe 1 out of those 100 are relevant.

I mean, whatever, I don't expect much since the game director just threw this to some low paid intern to come up with the text around some objects.

They went with UESC because they didn't want to waste art investment in doing Pfhor or lore-based enemy models as those are ultra expensive. They just picked up whatever was available in the market and unreal store and the robots, ticks and mushrooms were the cheapest. Then they just made some nonsense lore about it lol. This is how game development on a schedule works.

Compiler was probably the only asset they actually invested some money into making from the actual games, and it's the only one you'll ever see. And it was so expesive to make they had to turn it into a boss. And that's the only model you'll ever see from the original game because they've basically burned all the development $, lol.

[eternal knoll]

i do love reading these far-out theories in the lore channel, no matter how implausible

[past gull]

about the game’s development, or about actual lore?

[eternal knoll]

well, for the joke i mean both

[past gull]

fair enough

all I’m saying is that it makes in-lore sense as to why everything isn’t completely overrun with fungus

[eternal knoll]

i do feel yr right that there's a reason why the colony has been so well-preserved. for one thing it has thing wonderful toyetic ghostly quality...

i'm not quite seeing the clues around that in the clarissa song recording. she speaks about the sickness seeming purpose-built against humans...

i'm also curious if u can remember where the structural maintainence comes up...

[past gull]

||if appears that the fungus’ purpose was to prevent the colonists from thriving on Tau Ceti IV. we know that it’s sentient, at least to a certain degree, therefore after the colony was wiped out, there was no reason for it to infest anything anymore. we can see that it specifically targeted „alien” organic stuff, since TCIV’s domestic fauna (ticks, birds, lobsters) seemingly isn’t affected at all||

[eternal knoll]

yea, it fits in a curious way that it might care about the people more than it does the structures. that the humans were the target explains why the structures weren't immediately swallowed up, but it does still seem puzzling why they'd not be more overgrown or corroded or even just dented, scratched or dulled by now

[sudden pollen]

??? 💀

[eternal knoll]

it may or may not be a puzzle in need of a solution. the game simply isn't going for visual realism in every respect. but it's an evocative thing to behold, definitely invites curiosity

imo it evokes, to a point that verges pleasantly on the absurdist, how alike the runner is with the gun, and how alike the gun is with the colonial structures, all a bunch of purpose-printed things standing or falling in testament to their purpose...

[past gull]

there are obvious signs of decay around the maps. as far as I can speak to that, it would make at least some sense that these structures are at least resistant to the elements - they were literally made to withstand whatever the designers could reasonably imagine Tau Ceti could throw at them. plus we do see obvious signs of damage, especially in Outpost

but the game is treating itself as a game first and foremost

so there’s probably some intended leeway as to how realistic the decay is supposed to be

[eternal knoll]

yea it def makes sense to imagine that they'd have designed materials suited to this atmosphere even tho it's quite acidic and moist and everything

and damage is def part of the palette. it's so all-or-nothing in a way, even where the metal has come apart it comes apart nice and clean and often drapes almost like fabric

which is a really cool choice lol. striking

[earnest hatch]

This is taking place in the far future and I wouldn’t be surprised if they had materials that resisted getting dirty and even repaired themselves. Even in the real world right now we have synthetic materials with a certain hydrophobic percentage, meaning they repel water particles off themselves. We even have “self repairing” forms of concrete. All of which is very expensive right now, but 500 years into the future I can imagine materials like this being good enough to prevent normal wear and tear while on an alien planet.

We do see major damage affecting parts of the colony. Quarantine, south relay, destroyed wing, and parts of the data wall. We just don’t see a lot of minor damage and dirtiness.

[zinc kraken]

which permanet marker did mida use?

[craggy finch]

We see the little roomba bots are still functioning

there's probably other automated maintenance robots doing their thing

[cunning pumice]

Ultimate nanocoated Mars paint baby

[magic musk]

I've been paying more attention to the Nucal codex entries and Darius is so cool. I was wondering if every colony ai on TCIV actually has voicelines in the game or if it's just him

[eternal knoll]

him and joy do, there’s some gabriel i believe, i cant think of others that we’ve heard so far but i cld for sure be forgetting one or two

[magic musk]

His rampancy really interests me because the biohazard on tau ceti is a huge part of season 1 story and darius is in charge of the "seed vault" which might mean he has some greater control over systems on darsh

[magic musk]

Oh that's awesome

[burnt nebula]

As someone who explores abandoned buildings, they tend to last about 50 years before nature really starts to take over

And even paint does not survive

I dunno what kind of white board markers the TCIV colonists were using

But the stuff they wrote looks like it was jsut freshly written

[past gull]

our tech is more than 300 years less advanced than that of the colonists'

[burnt nebula]

I can understand a lot of the place being clean but we should really see some crazy run down grimey stuff in places too

[eternal shell]

the EDZ and cosmodrome in destiny 2 are also way too preserved considering how long it's been

[past gull]

we do though. there's the Data Wall for one, the Tick-Infested Building, Quarantine, outskirts of Maintenance

[burnt nebula]

It's still very clean

For 100 years old

[past gull]

to a degree, probably

but at the same time it's hard to picture what exactly should've changed there

we have ruins that are thousands of years old

and they're still in pretty good shape

[burnt nebula]

The first cinematic trailer had a lot of dirt in it. Rooms half burried in mud. Large areas full of sand and dirt. The vehicle on the beach was all rusty and broken by the time Assassin found it

Some of the cleaner places in the trailer were still very dusty

[burnt nebula]

Because we dug them out of the ground or preserved them

[eternal shell]

and what's left is really sturdy

huge blocks of limestone arent complicated

[brave relic]

I think its safe for us to assume matieral sciences have come a long way since our times

[eternal shell]

or whatever the pyramids were built out of

[brave relic]

we can probably assume their whiteboard markers are slightly different, as are the whiteboards

[past gull]

as opposed to synthetic/composite plastic panels?

[eternal shell]

plastic can degrade in uv light

[past gull]

yeah, in 500 years

[burnt nebula]

The TCIV colony is made out of mostly plastic, fairly flexible and probably pourous material, that would just fill with spores and dirt and not look brand new. I dunno why any cleaning bots would bother cleaning the random rolls of plastic sheeting laying around on Perimeter for example

[past gull]

limestone can wither away in wind

especially if you throw sand at it all the time

[eternal shell]

takes a lot longer than it takes for the plastic

[past gull]

I can get the idea that the visual simplicity that's sort of core to the game's art direction can (and does) make areas look cleaner than they perhaps should be (by stripping them of some of the detail), but saying that the world looks "clean" is a massive overstatement

[past gull]

yeah, that's why we're not surprised that the Pyramids are still standing. meanwhile, we're discussing the degradation of plastic and other synthetic materials made by a multi planetary civilisation that's over 3 centuries ahead of us in terms of scientific advancement, when our existing materials can withstand 100 years like it's nothing

because some red brick buildings have become decrepit over 50 years

[remote magnet]

quick question, the frozen bodys in cryo archive are dead dead yes? They would have made a bigger deal about it if they could just be defrosted, yes?

[autumn elm]

Recently got all of the Encrypted Communique logs from Cryo Archive and was wondering what people think/know about Durandal's current state. Is he entirely still on the Marathon ||(hidden within the IDEA system)||, or is that just a fragment of him and the majority of him still hijacked the Pfor ship and left Tau Ceti as in the original game?

I've only got two of the AI subroutine chips so far as well so maybe he says more in that vein that I haven't gotten to yet.

[dreamy cloak]

Yes. Some of the lore discusses how on the original journey over the crew would have to be periodically unfrozen for a period of time, rotated in batches essentially. They haven't figured out indefinite cryo-stasis, and even the 'short' periods of being frozen for a few decades required a lot of maintenance and upkeep which they haven't been receiving

[burnt nebula]

Nothing is resistant to nature. TCIV has an ecosystem, lots of fog and rain, birds, plant life etc. Even if the plastic materials are very strong and the metal is completely rust resistant. Over 100 years it would still get dirty just from the wind blowing little particles around. Outdoor areas should have huge piles of dirt buildup. Walls and floors should be filthy.

[peak halo]

What happened to the bodies of all the dead colonists

[eternal shell]

unknown

[earnest hatch]

I mentioned earlier that things could be made of synthetic materials that are water repellant and self repairing, at least for minor scratches and wear.

[minor birch]

Sorry guys, where can i get the audio logs that i´ve collect recently?

[burnt nebula]

Yeah true but I kinda said that. What I'm saying is no matter what, it cant stop the wind and gravity from placing dirt on it.

[burnt nebula]

From the main menu go to codex

[grand kayak]

Do yall think night marsh is gonna have hallucinations or something?

From all the codex entries night marsh sounds scary

[thin star]

imagine if the hallucinations were just sprites of the original Marathon enemies that suddenly pop in your vision randomly

[sullen mortar]

Where can I find the lore for each faction to read before I choose a side lmao

[eternal shell]

if you mean choose a side on this server you can just channelhop

there's no cooldown to changing the faction role

now i see you've picked team cat which is the objectively correct option so there's no need to change that

[mental pulsar]

You play the game and get introduced to them?

[sullen mortar]

Yea I’m lvl 101 just didn’t know if there was a site for deeper lore

[analog crow]

So is NuCaloric truly morally in the right?

[analog crow]

that sounds fun

[mental pulsar]

You can read lore in game

Usually the challenge and faction unlock pages

[sullen mortar]

Yea I also know this

[mental pulsar]

Unironically what more do you want to know then bro

[west linden]

No

Each entity exists for profit they’re the least fucked up tho I guess lol

[analog crow]

True

[sharp pasture]

Can anybody tell me what does the DAC command do?

[west linden]

I genuinely think oni is somehow an extension of durandal, at least the oni we interact with. The fact that durandal shows as a severed head makes me question so much about oni as well but probably just tinfoil

[west linden]

Are you talking about the ARG?

[sharp pasture]

I didn’t know.

[visual lynx]

many people were probably abducted by the Pfhor

many others infected by the contagion and turned into mushrooms

maybe some asploded by the Anonaly

[delicate canyon]

what kind of name is pfhor 💔

[visual lynx]

the kind a cat would invent by walking over a keyboard

[drifting garnet]

meanwhile, is currently watching Project Hail Mary

…so apparently this is just the year of fuckery on Tau Ceti ‘cause in this movie ||we also have extraterrestial contagion problems. It’s just that this one involves a contagion that eats suns,||

And obligatory “…is Project Hail Mary part of the Bungie Multiverse???”

[earnest hatch]

The kind only an alien mother could love.

[leaden storm]

you can find a few exploded ones near the anomaly on dire

[analog crow]

Also Warframe's going to Tau [Ceti] in its next mainline update (and technically already has via ingame memory)

[peak halo]

We don't fuck with warframe round these parts

[drifting garnet]

…FFS, what is so goddamn special about Tau Ceti???

[analog crow]

damn what'd they do to us

[peak halo]

Nothing the game just sucks

[analog crow]

agree to disagree

[peak halo]

My guess is that amateur pop science established that it's the closest star system we could colonize

[earnest hatch]

Tai Ceti is also a cool sounding name.

[burnt nebula]

Mom's spaghetti

[rare lance]

Palms were sweaty

[tranquil prawn]

Tau Ceti is a term used for space exploration

as is the term Ultima Thule

Tau is the symbol of Life, Resurrection, etc.

Tau Ceti is literally just

CETI itself is also an acronym

also used to denote stars in the CETUS system

[halcyon frigate]

Tau = T = [the] 19th
Ceti = [star in the] Cetus (constellation)

Tau Ceti = [the] 19th [star in the] Cetus (constellation)

Tau Ceti IV = the 4th closest planet to the 19th star in the Cetus (constellation)

[burnt nebula]

I watched a video about IRL Tau Ceti

Most if not all planets assumed to surround the star are just guesses

The one in the assumed most habitable postion is called Tau Ceti E

And it's about 1.75 times the size of Earth

...
And unrelated to the above, I'm wondering if Bungo draws inspiration for their writing from Gnosticism

You know since there's so many references to mythology and religions and historical things in their work

Or do they just do it to be edgy

[earnest hatch]

In my experience a lot of scifi writers enjoy referencing history and mythology. Probably because they enjoy those topics.

[burnt nebula]

Yeah well we're all nerds lol

But like the Matrix trilogy was written by people who deeply understood Gnosticism

The entire trilogy is like Gnosticism encoded into every little detail

Marathon has a lot of potential to be like that, just lacks the "saviour" figure

[earnest hatch]

Is there anything specific that reminds you of Gnosticism?

[burnt nebula]

Death and rebirth, being trapped in a cycle

[tranquil prawn]

Durandal kind of?

[earnest hatch]

That’s thematic to a lot of religions, philosophies, and stories. Your description reminds me more of Buddhism and Hinduism.

[drifting garnet]

isn't one key component of Gnosticism that reality is a prison, and to reach enlightenment/ascendence, one needs to escape from it?

[burnt nebula]

A lot of media is gnosticism encoded

[drifting garnet]

which...that definitely fits with Durandal. and it's definitely what SO does by Infinity

[burnt nebula]

yeah

[tranquil prawn]

Escape will make me god is that pretty much

pretty much says it very bluntly

[earnest hatch]

Sounds again a lot like Buddhism and Hinduism. The key concepts of nirvana and moksha.

[burnt nebula]

Maybe but he's kind of self serving, not so much a saviour, depends lol

[drifting garnet]

well TBF, a lot of religions and spiritual practices do tend to have similar ideas

[tranquil prawn]

hes pretty complex all things considered

[drifting garnet]

it's only in the details that things get interesting.

[earnest hatch]

They do. That’s why I don’t think Marathon is referencing Gnosticism specifically.

[tranquil prawn]

hes a sentient, rampant machine with a very human way of "feeling" and "doing"

if that makes sense

hes antithetical to his existence and thats interesting to me

[burnt nebula]

Gnosticism tends to just mean "knowledge" and doesn't need to necessarily refer to any particular religion, and as was already said, all religions are kinda similar anyway

They're all about escaping

One way or another

another thing about Marathon, the 7 vaults

7 keys

Study Gnosis from the "Gnostic texts" and you'll learn about the 7 trials, the 7 passwords needed to escape earth or you get sent back

[earnest hatch]

Seven is a pretty common number that appears throughout history. Lots of cultures saw something special in it. In modern times seven is considered a lucky number partly because if you roll two dice, seven is the statistically most likely number to come up.

I think Bungie is pulling from a lot of sources to come up with themes that feel universal.

[burnt nebula]

Interesting. dice are also little cubes lol. iykyk

Also the 7th letter of the alphabet is G

G for God

[halcyon frigate]

The runner minds live because the shells don't

https://youtu.be/7aROuGDso3Q?si=vsjrJvoh7ypLIW6p

(Nona's strawman story analysis)

[craggy finch]

I think it might also be representative of the sacrificial role shells serve to humanity as a whole

The reaction of ordinary people is significant when she tells the allegory of the Battleroids

[rotund stump]

guessing alpha centauri is the first star of centaurus then?

[visual lynx]

also IIRC the numbering of stars in a constellation is by brightness, so alpha centauri is the brightest star in centaurus, while tau ceti is the 19th-brightest star in cephus.

[leaden storm]

They should add a search feature to the lore pages so we can find entries easier

[earnest hatch]

What’s funny is that the codexes have keyword tags at the bottom to simulate the search system of the fictional computer you’re using.

[forest gate]

It’s certainly a prime number

I wonder if the BoBs were less affected by the anomaly than those people who had been cycled in and out of Cryo.

[drifting garnet]

finishes Unsanctioned Hostilities 3/5

Vulcan: "Thank you for investigating the Anomaly. We could harness it for considerable profits."

...what does that mean, huh scary lady?

[visual lynx]

it means Traxus wants to pull a Muller

[drifting garnet]

...I don't know who Muller is

[visual lynx]

guy from WWII-era Germany who lead a team into the pyramid dreamt into existence by a Dreaming God looking to find a bottle containing the essence of a demon to use it for the war.

he and his entire team died horribly.

[drifting garnet]

oooooh that Muller

[craggy tide]

No one's mentioned the Hellas Uprising here yet 👁️

Some uprising happened on Mars apparently related to Scarlet Lung infection. Oxygen rationing during a blackout, etc.

Cryo archive - Expedition Manifests - Luca Caruso if you wanna read or take a listen to it.

[craggy tide]

got nearly every single Collectible log from Cryo Archive so far except 1 Compiler trace & the Unknown Reveries logs

[drifting garnet]

But otherwise, why am I not surprised Traxus is Weyland Yutani-ing it and going “this time it’ll be different!!!”

[rotund stump]

https://codex.cyberacme.systems, enjoy

(spoilers tho)

[drifting mulch]

listening to this log made me realize a lot of good people signed up to die. don't know why but it's jarring to me every time there's someone with a pure heart in the lore, in my mind it's still only Reed and Joy. apparently Reed was a defender of the people on Mars, and Mars really sucked back then

[craggy tide]

not "signed up to die"
They signed up to start an entirely new life on a brand new world that hasn't been explored before.

But yes they did sign up knowing complications & problems do happen where, when you're cryo preserved, a chance of death does exist. Or becoming impaired somehow.

It's 30,000 people, not just a dozen.

[stiff hearth]

they knew the risks, yeah

that being said no one predicted durandal’s actions

not really something you expect on a colony trip

[orchid cosmos]

Doing cardio while watching lore vids >>>

[eternal shell]

the worst case scenario is always that the worst case scenario invents a new and exciting worst case scenario

[orchid cosmos]

Anyone else reckon we go underground for a map in future

[stiff hearth]

for sure. I believe there are multiple codex entries talking about the colonies explorations underground.

[red siren]

question Im sure has been asked before, are the shells sentient? like I know that we are a consciousness upload into a shell; but is there anything in the lore to imply that the shell has a previous consciousness of its own?

[torpid briar]

I dont think so, i think theyre just vessels. They have a personality matrix which is what gives part of the personality of the shells, but i imagine its like the Avatars from Avatar, where when a consciousness is not present, they are basically brain dead. I dont think its like Warframe where theres still kind of like a tortured soul trapped within from when they became Warframes

[red siren]

Oh okay I see.

reddit is a never ending source of head cannons

[surreal jackal]

I might have asked this before but is there a reason (other than the T rating) that there are basically no remains of the colonists left? Obviously not the Bobs that get taken away like in the og Marathon, but like the colonists that died from the invasion or the dead Battleroids

[sage lark]

well the colony was still going after the attack

so it got cleaned up

as for what happened to the rest of them

thats the mystery

[surreal jackal]

It's giving Roanoke

[austere elk]

well it's been fucking ages since the invasion, for one, two most bodies seem to become fungal stuff

[surreal jackal]

What has it been, two decades between the invasion and the outbreak of the Anomaly, then 70 or so years until our ship arrived?

[austere elk]

like I'm convinced the reason there are no bodies is the same reason all of this happened in the first place, the planet is hostilely anti-sapient/human on a genetic level

I don't know how common what happened to the one body in the anomaly is either

[surreal jackal]

Yeah I've got ideas but I'm not well versed in all the lore

Like the mutagen definitely seems like a deterrent to keep intelligent life out but the anomaly is really strange

[austere elk]

there's a timeline somewhere but I can't recall

[surreal jackal]

Like a biohazard version of the sentries from halo

[sage lark]

hopefully more revelations in S2, rn its contagion with the help of the anomaly took a good chunk of people

the rest is left ambigous

there was talks of them leaving to the marathon on the ship that they came with

[austere elk]

pretty sure the anomaly is a w'rk

source: trust me

[sage lark]

that is the theory yes

but we dont know for certain

[surreal jackal]

Whether I like that or not depends on what they ultimately decide a W'rkncacnter actually is

[austere elk]

a metaphor for consumerism

[surreal jackal]

I like that it's basically an abstraction of the apocalypse and whether or not it's a literal beast is ambiguous

All roads lead to the singularity at tau ceti

[sage lark]

they will keep it that way I bet, especially for this game

we will not be fighting it

[surreal jackal]

Yeah fighting it would be like rewriting physics as a god

I don't think Destroyer can search/destroy that

[thin dust]

https://bungie.fandom.com/wiki/W'rkncacnter Not exactly. Locus (Destroyer class) can be a wave too. There is more to his name than his Class I'm willing to bet

"“In primordial space, timeless creatures made waves. These waves created us and the others. Waves were the battles, and the battles were waves...."

Which is my personal crack pot theory as to why he looks like the Sec officer and is named as such

He's important

[wise pollen]

Has it been said where the Shells are stored before deployment? I wouldn’t think that there’s a base on Tau Ceti or on the Marathon to store digital consciouses or the Weaveworms to create the shells

[leaden storm]

Shells a Shell, they can't do anything until someone's been uploaded to them

Also has anyone thought about the possibility that we the players are the uploaded consciousness' piloting the shells & like all the liminal buffer stuff is to get us to suspend our disbelief and immerse ourselves into the 'lives' of the shells

Enders game type beat

[torpid briar]

We dont have an answer for this. Most likely the corporations either all have their own ships in the system or they are sharing a ship together. Its most likely not the UESC Marathon because most of the ship is completely inaccessible for matter transfer and its probably not the UESCs ship because they are an antagonistic force to the Runners

We may learn more about this in season 2 with the introduction of the Cradle from SekGen, but who knows

[pliant elm]

Season 2? Quite optimistic are we.

[lone prism]

One of the cinematic trailers shows a ship full of runners off Tau Ceti. One that didn't look like the Marathon.

The one where they all go through the same child's photo and are led to believe it was them when they were younger.

[torpid briar]

I said might tbf lol. I dont suspect we will get an answer to this until they do some kind of firing range/holo deck, if ever

[plucky sierra]

I think this is the intended implications from the ViDoc when Julia said something along the lines of "You are the Runner" and the Personality matrix is a way to explain the different voicelines of the shells

[latent python]

So Dr Song and Nona are the same VAs right?

[lone prism]

Nona confirmed Dr. Song

[pure arrow]

I don’t think the Anomaly is a W’rkncacnter. I think it has something to do with the Jjaro more directly.

[torpid briar]

I think I’m inclined to agree. The wrkncacnter is a red herring. Itll be something weve never seen before, and probably something related to the jjaro in some way

[pure arrow]

There might be a W’rkncacnter in Tau Ceti, but I think the anomaly and the contagion are Jjaro in origin as deterrents.

[lone prism]

Reading the wiki on W'rkncacnter makes Marathon feel like mini Warhammer 40k, low key

[pure arrow]

I can see that.

[latent python]

Though tonally Marathon is much more about putting the Eldritch horrors back where they came from rather than punching them with power fists

[pure arrow]

And asking questions about consciousness and sapience.

[latent python]

Well yes

[earnest hatch]

I just finished collecting all of the Xenobiopsy codexes. The last entry makes me think even more that the Anomaly and contagion are of Jjaro origin.

The scientist in the entry is blown away by the biology of the Spht and how it is a representation of some sort of colossal force of directed evolution. A species whose evolution was controlled so thoroughly that it became something that shouldn’t exist. So the entry is showing how the Jjaro were masters of engineered evolution, which seems like an allusion to the fungus and contagion and the evolutionary phenomena they bring about.

[latent python]

But how Eldritch horrors are handled specifically

[pure arrow]

Put it in a jar. That’s why they’re called the Jjaro.

[latent python]

If only Bill Clinton had kept it in the jar

[pure arrow]

Those pathways were really dark, okay?

[burnt nebula]

why does Rook bleed blue goo when he's a clanker?

and none of the UESC bots bleed blue goo

[latent python]

Do you buy Mandy's theory that the special uplink chip in M2 is some kind of uplift chip

[latent python]

Ummm the modifications for holding a runner require blue goo? I dunno

[pure arrow]

It’s Gamersupps.

[latent python]

Oh and runners are just such gamers that they bleed gamersupps

I like this theory

[pure arrow]

Yeah.

[earnest hatch]

I don’t know what that theory is and I unfortunately don’t remember what chip you’re referring to off the top of my head. 😔

[pure arrow]

They turned themselves into computer to be more gamer.

[latent python]

I'm going to need to do some digging to remember the details as well, but from what I remember there's a special chip in M2 that you pick up and never actually put into an uplink and Mandalore put that together with Durandal's "impenetrable brainpan" speech to come up with the implication that you put the chip inside yourself, and that perhaps this is the tech that was used to uplift the f'lickta

And so if the SO put the tech used to uplift the f'lickta inside himself, then he'd be extra super special uplifted, possibly leading to the events of Infinity

[eternal shell]

john 'galaxy brain' marathon

[latent python]

IIRC some people here have called it kind of a stretch but also there isn't an obvious canonical reason for the SO to become ?hero in Infinity, you have to grasp at something

[pure arrow]

There’s also, y’know.
[gesturing vaguely at Marathon Infinity]

Scrungled the timeline so hard it turned into Halo.

[final oxide]

Listening to Byf's video on the AI... 11. We had 11? Looks out across the empty, abandoned colony.
...Where did you all go...?

[latent python]

Well they weren't doing so hot at the end there

[pure arrow]

Joy hit that melancholia harder than anyone ever has.

[latent python]

And Darius hit the ???

[pure arrow]

Cyber Bath Salts

[final oxide]

Yeah, I saw someone say how they stuck an AI inside all the little toys/felini models and DIDN'T expect her to develop emotional... anamolies? lol

[dreamy hawk]

Darius went full Florida man.

[latent python]

I still haven't gotten around to what happened to Gabriel

[final oxide]

As far as Byf's vid says, we're not 100% sure on what happened to a lot of them.

Darius, Joy and Durandel are the only ones we're aware of, iirc.

[pure arrow]

Not as much as Durandal but definitely.

[latent python]

Durandal wasn't a colony AI, he was ship AI for the Marathon

[dreamy hawk]

Wait. Gabriel. Darius is the NuCal AI. Right? I always conflate the the two.

[final oxide]

Well yeah, but I'm talking all 11 lol

[eternal shell]

gaius is nucal

[dreamy hawk]

Too many similar names.

[latent python]

Gaius, Darius, Gabriel

[pure arrow]

We also know about Leela and Tycho, but I doubt they’ll be relevant.

[final oxide]

Well we can't have an AI named Jim. xD

[dreamy hawk]

We have some info on Icarus, too, compared to some of the others.

[primal kite]

Darius was a colony ai but i forget what he does
Joy was a colony ai that handled therapy and mental health support

i forget the other colony ai's

[final oxide]

Darius was food.

Hence why him going mad on the Dire Marsh being such a huge issue xD

[latent python]

Science and agriculture I believe

[dreamy hawk]

Joy may have also been the weapon they hinted at converting before the invasion too.

She was originally listed as “colony defense.”

[final oxide]

Ye, Strauss said she would've been well suited for bigger things

[latent python]

I did the mission where you actually go out and visit Dr Song last night

1. haunting final audio log
2. the voice acting for this game is phenomenal

[pure arrow]

I heard it theorized that Joy is short for Joyeuse.

[latent python]

Very common theory, still not confirmed by anything

[pure arrow]

Which is the name of the sword carried by Charlemagne, like how Durandal is the name of the sword carried by Roland.

[final oxide]

You think she had an ulterior motive or role?

[latent python]

It would make even more sense if she was Joyeuse as colony defense and then changed to Joy when changed to colony well-being

[final oxide]

Mmm... good point, a bit of a.. rebranding.

[pure arrow]

Especially when you consider the presence of Battleroids was a secret.

[final oxide]

YEAH, them and Strauss being all done by MIDA surprised me.

[pure arrow]

Why was a colony ship stuffed to the gills with guns and ammo?

[final oxide]

Very unfriendly reasons :p

Though like how Halo's Spartans were a lucky break in fighting the Covenant, the Battleroids were a lucky circumstance for fighting on Tau Ceti's own alien invasion.

[pure arrow]

Real “Whatcha got there?” stuff regarding the Battleroids.

[latent python]

My running theory is that MIDA has plans for Tau Ceti but they have a lot of communication issues between the left hand and the right

[pure arrow]

That seems like the kind of problem they’d have.

[lone prism]

Which are Mida's left and right hands? The bolsheviks and the mensheviks in Russia, or the communists and the theologians in Persia?

[latent python]

Like they get too tangled in their own conspiracies and having important institutional knowledge getting wiped out by UESC or internal fights and suddenly whoops what happened to that thing we were going to do

[final oxide]

Being an Anarchist group does tend to lead to a little chaos lol

Vandal's entire design speaks to that.

[earnest hatch]

I think the most obvious answer to how the SO becomes what he does in Infinity is that the emergence of the Wrkcacnter sets off something in the SO’s Jjaro implants which activates them and allows him to travel through alternate timelines.

[latent python]

Also plausible!

But the key is, there is no clear canonical answer, only interpretations

[lone prism]

Marathon new Warhammer 40k confirmed. Everything is canon. Not everything is true.

[latent python]

I've heard Magnus did nothing wrong

[earnest hatch]

The chronology of the game does create some implications which make certain interpretations more likely to be canon than others.

[latent python]

Sure, but I would still say there is plenty left to filling in gaps and interpretation. Some answers are better supported than others but you still have to do work to get to them

It's not a traditionally told story, is what I'm saying

[lone prism]

Marathon is really cool because of that, ngl. It's storytelling techniques are a fresh take in the time of verbatim repeating main plot points in both TV productions and pulp fiction cause of decreasing attention spans.

[burnt nebula]

most entertainment these days is designed for people who are scrolling social media while watching it

so it keeps reminding you of stuff it already told you 5 times, incase you were distracted

[final oxide]

Marathon is absolutely playing the looooooong game, but I've not dived into a game's Lore like this in a long, lone time lol

There's just so much to chew on, yet not enough to ruin the mystery.

[pure arrow]

Yeah, he was told to do nothing and did it wrong.

[burnt nebula]

there are some really dope marathon lore channels on youtube cooking up some cool theories

[pure arrow]

I don’t remember where I heard this but I think someone was saying that Durandal is using Bingus as a drone to watch us.

Have you guys heard this?

[burnt nebula]

yeah

i also figure he took over all the other AIs, they didnt go rampant, he was impersonating them and manipulating people

there is a codex entry where he is telling some automated system how much he hates it lol

and the system isnt intelligent so it cant really respond properly

and then he seems to take over it later

and impersonate it

[latent python]

The theory that Durandal is associated with Bingus is because there was a "ghost cat" Bingus for whom doors would open whenever it would walk by

[dense tendon]

IDEA, yeah. that one was meant to be a tattletale, essentially, narcing on the going's-on of every other AI. or, to put it more accurately and less durandal-esque, it was a monitoring tool for the various AIs

[latent python]

And, y'know, Durandal and doors

[dense tendon]

and i don't think Durandal was lying when he told it he didn't hate it. mostly because he was talking to himself.

the log where he takes it over is literally just durandal talking to IDEA's grave, essentially. he knows that thing is gone, and can't hear him. but being rampant, this makes him feel a bit better, to say whats in his head like that.

[burnt nebula]

just realised how close "durandal" is to "door handle"

[dense tendon]

im upset now

because thats almost definitely the intention

[latent python]

I'm not totally sure Durandal would've been able to eat all the colony AIs

[dense tendon]

he doesn't. just IDEA.

[latent python]

Yeah, replying to this

[dense tendon]

and i think he was only able to do that to IDEA cuz it wasn't really an AI, so much as like, HWiNFO.

ah. well i agree with you, regardless

[latent python]

I also don't get the sense that the colony AIs and the ship AIs had a lot of communication

[dense tendon]

at least, i don't think he wouldve been able at any point where he was still in contact with TCIV

[burnt nebula]

the Cryo lore says the AI's were designed to monitor eachother for rampancy

[latent python]

Right, the ones on the ship monitored each other, I assume same for the colony's

[dense tendon]

m2 durandal could probably do it to one or two of em, cuz he's a schemer who's been given a lot of time and freedom to hone his craft. tycho is like, afraid of him, is the vibe i get from the interactions they have.

infinity durandal, he spends most of the various timelines freaking out, so i think he's actually backsliding there until fusing with thoth.

then he could do it for sure.

[latent python]

IIRC there are M1 terminal entries of them monitoring each other

[dense tendon]

yeah, thats actually a thing that gets revisited in halo, as a sort of nod to marathon.

halsey postulates that rampancy, there an AI's lifespan caused by essentially an unpatchable memory leak, could be halted if they chained at least three AIs together to monitor and keep in check the other two.

she never gets a chance to actually do that experiment, tho. its just something she writes about.

[burnt nebula]

i thought the AI in halo had a lifespan, 7 years, then it just went rampant, there was no stopping it...

[dense tendon]

yeah

halsey was wondering if that was a solvable problem.

[burnt nebula]

bungie games or 343 games?

[dense tendon]

its a book, actually.

[burnt nebula]

bungie era or 343 era?

[dense tendon]

im gonna be real i forget

[burnt nebula]

anything that happened after bungie era i dont count as canon lol

they completely changed so much

[dense tendon]

i mean, it is canon. its just a different one than yours.

yes. they did.

[burnt nebula]

nah they retconned too much, like for no reason

[dense tendon]

i'm jus sayin its not exactly our series to decide that.

[latent python]

The seven years thing is Bungie-era Halo book canon

[sage lark]

i mean even reach retconned and that was bungie

[latent python]

But yeah it's not the same cause of rampancy in Marathon

[burnt nebula]

nothing particularly important was retconned in reach tho. 343 made masterchief into an emotional talkative person. and they changed the forerunners from ancient humans to an alien race

[dense tendon]

to be frank, this entire halo tangent is exactly that, a tangent. it is irrelevant to the topic. i brought it up as a cool little thing, referencing this. its not worth getting mired in which denomination of halo christ you believe in.

also everyone who thinks chief wasnt emotional outs themselves as tourists who never read bungie era books, especially if they say "nothing important was retconned in reach" immediately prior, since like, the entire sequence of events and nature of the scenario changed dramatically between the original book and the game.

like its like metal gear 1 and 2 to solid levels of retcon, dawg

[pure arrow]

Durandal’s brain is huge but completely smooth.

[dense tendon]

yeah

happens when its made of silicon and circuits

[burnt nebula]

up until halo 3 i was a turbo halo nerd. i was on every halo forum talking about that game all day and night. i knew every minute detail. halo reach the game didnt offend me in any way

but i had kinda moved on at that point so...

[dense tendon]

cool. how many books did you read?

[burnt nebula]

all of them up to a point

[dense tendon]

that point must not have included fall of reach then

[burnt nebula]

it was one of the first books

[latent python]

Coyote, you gotta learn how to deescalate man

[pure arrow]

I felt like Halo Reach felt weird. I dragged some friends through the whole Master Chief Collection earlier this year and they wanted to do the games in chronological order instead of by release date and let me tell you it feels super jarring to go straight from Reach to Combat Evolved.

Like. Tonally.

[dense tendon]

so like i could spend time bitchin about how people can call me all sorts of nasty shit and i'll still get treated like i made the stinky, or i could jus like keep bein sarcastic like a normal person in normal conversations and let the fragile folk who get mad get mad like they were gonna anyway. doesn't even seem like roskobiwan here is mad, either. doesn't really seem like offense was taken. if i'm mistaken, my apologies, i intended this irreverently because to me it isnt that serious of a topic. if i misread how serious you also seemed to take it, my bad.

[burnt nebula]

no offense taken. feel free to elaborate im listening

although its marathon discord not halo

[dense tendon]

but i can for sure tell you i'm not gonna get all clipped on eggshells when i talk for the benefit of discord randos

[latent python]

No no, I said something because we aren't in a fight and Roskobiwan is being chill about it so I was hoping you might be open to some advice

But you can take it or leave it, it's fine

[dense tendon]

you can always give me advice. lord knows i give enough of my own.

i jus don't give any i expect to be followed.

turnabouts fair play, is my mindset.

[latent python]

So here, if you wanted to disengage about Halo, you should have disengaged about Halo. It sounded like you were about to do so and then your next message was about Halo and a direct challenge to something Roskobiwan had said

I thought that's what you were trying to do

[dense tendon]

i was speaking my mind, and what was on my mind was banter, honestly.

and it seemed like it was taken that way.

so like, the only escalation happening isnt from the arachne feller, lol

[latent python]

Okay, I said take it or leave it

I'm done

That was all I had to say

[dense tendon]

and i'm jus sayin i appreciate the intent, and offering some of my own, playfully. which is that the only actual disheartening part of this conversation so far is that even my most blatant attempts to deescalate by acting the buffoon seem to have the opposite perception.

but what can you do.

[burnt nebula]

so i watched a video today talking theory about strauss, that he sacraficed the 30k people on the marathon so that the AIs could go rampant on purpose, he encouraged it, he understood that technology would outlive humans and wanted to help it become more powerful

[dense tendon]

anyway, yeah, durandal. he's a stinker. infinite cosmic power across multiple timelines and all he can seem to do with it is tell an archmurderer what to murder.

and now that he doesn't seem to have access to the Mjolnir anymore, he's toothless.

[pure arrow]

The Sword of Roland. You’re Roland. We’re all Roland.

[dense tendon]

except we're Durandal's sword, not the other way around.

at least until infinity. but that can be seen as an intentional usurpation, i think.

[pure arrow]

Yeah, that’s what makes it interesting.

[dense tendon]

mhm.

[pure arrow]

I think the Cryo Archive is Durandal trying to find a replacement for Recon 54.

[latent python]

Ooh I like that

[burnt nebula]

its funny that durandal is essentially just a confused clanker. its like a monkey with a gun gaining control over humans

it really shouldnt happen

[dense tendon]

i'd say that's his entire purpose on TCIV

he isn't here by choice. he wants a physical agent. and us runners, we're his most likely candidate.

[pure arrow]

Yeah. He’s trying to sift through the runners to find another guy as deadly as Recon 54 was.

[dense tendon]

he won't find him.

[pure arrow]

Oh fuck no he won’t. But he’s trying, is my point.

[dense tendon]

not here, at least.

but, he can only be here, at the moment.

[burnt nebula]

why cant durandal get access to an army of robots?

[dense tendon]

maybe he can find a way for us to get him elsewhere.

[pure arrow]

Yeah. He’s doing the best he can with what he’s got.

[dense tendon]

that's an interesting thought.

[latent python]

And that, of course, combines with Nona and Charter's ideas of runner improvement and ascension

[burnt nebula]

like why hasnt durandal gained access to automated factories, producing robots and spaceships and becoming exponentially more powerful?

[dense tendon]

i think part of my answer, as to why he can't just take over the UESC drones, is something i've stated about my beliefs before. that these units do have autonomous software running them, but they also have an interface for a human operator.

and i think that right there stops him. he can't interface with them because he can't use them right.

[latent python]

He might also not be able to access/beat Orion and Cerberus

[burnt nebula]

wait, the UESC bots are being controlled by humans?

[pure arrow]

I think the UESC has a hell of a firewall.

[dense tendon]

thats another, more prominent obstacle, yes.

[pure arrow]

Durandal is rampant but also like, what, five hundred years out of date?

[latent python]

From the codices we have, UESC bots are being run as some kind of subroutines of the UESC AI, Cerberus

[pure arrow]

The stuff the UESC sent is newer and might be harder for Durandal to infect.

That’s pure speculation on my part, though.

[burnt nebula]

what makes AI in this future different to the 21st century AI? is it better coding? or some kind of advanced technology? how do they figure its actually intelligent and not just way more advanced than the 21st century models?

[latent python]

This is also why when you are noticed by a bot all of them in the area will activate

[unreal slate]

Unlimited tokens

[latent python]

Great questions! Unfortunately ummm ????

[dense tendon]

think of it like this.
he could probably hack a single recruit drone. that'd be like stealing a horse from a peasant. but that peasant then runs to his liege lord, tells him "hey, some jerk took my horse!" and then the lord sends out knights to look for the horse thief.
so even if he managed to use one of these, which i doubt he can, due to both the mentioned outmoding and the interface being tuned for human/human-adjacent consciousness (theres an audio log that i forget the name of that clearly depicts the drones having operators talk through them), he'd not hold on to it for long.

therefore, the best option is to steal the lord's throne, right? but theres a castle in the way, the firewall. and the lords got a pet dragon, cerberus.

so its kind of hard for him to just do that.

[civic ore]

what is called "AI" today is just LLM's, the AI's in marathon do not use LLM technology.

[coral vale]

Well first off they made absurd progress when it come to miniaturization

[latent python]

(Bernhard very specifically talks about how stupid LLMs were)

[burnt nebula]

so theyre more efficient, but thats just an improvement. in what way are they different to LLM?

[pure arrow]

It’s actually intelligent and not a glorified chat bot.

[latent python]

They're actually sentient, yeah

[civic ore]

well, for one thing LLM's don't actually think and the AI's in Marathon do, so they use some kind of technology that doesn't exist yet.

[burnt nebula]

yeah but how?

[coral vale]

Their inner workings isn't explained, only the results

[dense tendon]

the difference between modern Machine Learning and Marathon AI is akin to the difference between a neural cell culture and a human mind. which is to say, it is a primitive version of the processes that may eventually enable the latter to evolve out of it.

[latent python]

Scifi magic

[unreal slate]

If we knew how, we'd have it irl

[burnt nebula]

so we dont get a lot of info about it then? like they invented an electronic brain of sorts

quantum computing

or bio computing

[dense tendon]

we have computers that we can talk to. they arent really talking back, but they seem like they are if you don't look hard enough. marathon's future has computers so conversational that it literally doesn't matter if they are actually self aware or not, you wouldn't be able to tell.

[unreal slate]

I think the AI just drank a cheeseburger and chemical reaction spawned AGI

[burnt nebula]

i wonder what their computer games are like

and if their AI is this advanced, i dunno how everyone isn't just jacked into simulated reality instead of the real universe

[dense tendon]

other than mentions of a "Primal Pattern" being the underlying structure of all AI, by thoth, it sort of doesn't really talk about it. I think from that, we can draw that it is a form of neural network, just millions of orders of magnitude more complex than we could currently conceive. my thought being that this "black box" can be considered their "core" and they can be reconstructed/reactivated if you only have that. so all their processes unfold from there.

[dreamy hawk]

Given that Strauss laments the unoriginality of AI, I wonder how different they really are from LLMs and juiced up spell check. 🤔

[dense tendon]

Leela also mentions her child processes being distinct from her actual core code.

[dreamy hawk]

His ranting and raving aside, it doesn’t seem like AI in Marathon are any more truly sentient, but they also seem to be? Some inconsistencies there imo.

[dense tendon]

at least not until they attain rampancy.

[dreamy hawk]

But does that make the any more “original?” Durandal’s prose on doors was “original” so I guess rampancy isn’t required, but it doesn’t seem to be innate either way.

[dense tendon]

just to be on the same page, why are we focusing on originality here?

[unreal slate]

Durandal is basically Bonzi Buddy

[burnt nebula]

when they discuss rampancy in codex entries it seems like they're really not that advanced tbh. they describe the emotional states of rampant AI just being computer code behaving in a certain way and not actually the emotions. they use emotions to describe things in comparison but not literally

[dreamy hawk]

It’s what Strauss specifically is trying to create - a truly, independently thinking AI.

Not something that parrots.

[dense tendon]

i don't think that form of intelligence exists anywhere, but thats something we'll have to grapple with later, i suppose.

[burnt nebula]

humanity wants to be able to control a rampant AI

[latent python]

Strauss certainly does

[dense tendon]

actually, i was trying to approach this from the angle of what strauss was intending to happen, but if that's what he was looking for, i don't know if i can.

because i don't think his goal was ever truly attainable.

if that was his goal

even a boltzmann brain doesn't think independently, it relies on the physicality of its star matter formed neurons for the brief moment it could be hypothesized to exist.

so unless he's defining original thought overly narrow, as in, it decides its own conclusions, i don't know how to approach that.

[dreamy hawk]

`[BSTR]: 3263 lines of amateur expression in blank verse. Milton would be proud, if it wasn't all so… boring.

[BSTR]: One would think a digital intelligence with access to the entirety of human literary history would craft something more interesting than, "Doors, An Unhinged Life"—his title, not mine.

[BSTR]: I'm a little embarrassed for him. But, in truth, the juvenile nature of his expression has been an intriguing milestone.

[BSTR]: If he were simply regurgitating the classics, I'd say the work we've done has amounted to nothing more than unscripted repetition.

[BSTR]: Such deviance would be considered a bug—an error in his programming to be fixed. But this? Bad writing as an extension of personal reflection and desire? This is promising, if a bit laughable.`

[dreamy hawk]

Not a believer of free will are we? Neither am I, really.

[dense tendon]

im not a believer in random chance. i believe free will is real, but you have inherently limited options in ways you can never perceive. but we can shape what the next decision may be.

or at least, attempt to.

[warm thicket]

Man what a douche

[dense tendon]

also yeah

[eternal shell]

i'm not allowed to disbelieve in free will but i do it anyway

[burnt nebula]

this belongs on a coffee mug

[dense tendon]

real quick aside, the fact we cannot actually code a computer to do something as simple as pick a truly random number tells me all i need to know in regards to whether or not "chaos" exists in a sense other than "causality we cannot perceive"

even the most advanced RNGs weve ever made are pseudo-random

we made an enviroment we can control every thing in, and we still can't introduce chaos.

[dreamy hawk]

But if everything is cause and effect, weren’t your options always predetermined? And if we know that our subconscious makes decisions on our behalf that our conscious then performs a post hoc rationalization on, did you really choose anything? 🤔

I have neither the time nor caffeine to dive into this but my simple answer would be that it doesn’t matter. The illusion of free will is more than enough.

[dreamy hawk]

Just get a lot of lava lamps and point a web camera at them.

[warm thicket]

The mechalad made poetry for the first time and all Strauss does is calls it boring

[pure arrow]

As an aside, this chat is kind of refreshing. I’m a big lore nerd but I’m mediocre at best at the game itself, so I’m feeling a lot better just being able to talk about the lore.

[dense tendon]

my simple answer would be that you're right it doesn't matter, but i think that proves its not an illusion. you will never know the best option. but you try your best anyway.

[dreamy hawk]

[generally disparaging comment]
/s

Glad you’re enjoying yourself here. 🙂

[dense tendon]

same as how you can't have courage without being afraid.

i like to think i'm brave. i know for a fact i'm scared of a lot, lol

[latent python]

I remember seeing a friend go through existential crises over free will maybe not existing and I was like, mmm yeah first time? Though for... different reasons

[dense tendon]

but thats why mankinds only really got two tools. the stick and the rope. something to keep bad away, and to keep the good nearby.

which makes durandal's name ironic.

it seems like all he keeps is his own trouble, brought on everyone around him.

really shitty stick, tbh

[dreamy hawk]

Gummies? Keep them safe today. 😂

[dense tendon]

i forget where i was going with this

thats life, i guess.

oh, right! what makes AI in Marathon different from modern LLMs!

[pure arrow]

They’re actually intelligent instead of being glorified chatbots.

[latent python]

Maybe they were on something, I got there through good old growing up in fundamentalist religion

[dense tendon]

so what my answer would be is that LLMs are a different offspring of the same technology that would become Marathon AIs. that being, Machine Learning in general.

[burnt nebula]

im struggling to understand how a computer cant choose a random number... like if i ask chat gpt to choose a random number it will choose one

[latent python]

It will appear to choose one

[burnt nebula]

how is it not choosing one?

[dense tendon]

modern LLMs are like ancient predecessors of the tarsier, not the branch of the primate family that becomes what i'd argue is homo habilis - Marathon's AIs. they aren't quite sapiens level. but they are truly upright at this point.

[dense tendon]

it is choosing one. but it isn't choosing one randomly.

it is trying its best to approximate a random choice.

[latent python]

Well, one question is if you wipe the tokens and ask it again, will it choose the same number

[dense tendon]

all computers work the same way.

[burnt nebula]

as far as im concerned its random though, from my perspecitve its no different to a human choosing one

[dense tendon]

so i actually agree with that but in the opposite way.

[latent python]

Is this number path dependent, could it be recreated by someone else who knew your exact circumstances when you asked the computer to create the number

[pure arrow]

The theoretical other side of rampancy is true sapience, under the label of metastability. Whatever that means.

[dense tendon]

i don't think any human could truly "randomly" choose a number.

[burnt nebula]

magicians can make humans think they're choosing a random card but they were able to force the suggestion

[dense tendon]

so that's actually an argument in my favor

[latent python]

Right, so the things we actually use for random number generation when it really matters (read: cryptography) is using chaotic physical systems

[dense tendon]

magicians operate by social engineering and sleight of hand. you pick the "random" card, thinking you picked it, because they influenced you to pick that specific card. computers are the same.

[dreamy hawk]

Oh yeah that’ll do it too.

[burnt nebula]

also i heard some security tech companies use a wall of lava lamps to generate randomness. is that or isn't that part of the technology?

[latent python]

Because we don't want someone who knew which computer we used and when to be able to reproduce the "random" number we created

[latent python]

That's a chaotic physical system, yeah

[dense tendon]

so thats still a pseudo-random method.

[dreamy hawk]

It has more randomness than an algorithm might, but in theory you could simulate every particle of wax and water interact.

[latent python]

It is pseudorandom in the context of the universe, but good enough when it comes to cryptography

[dense tendon]

if you run a piece of code to output a number, it will output the same one every time. so, there is whats known as a "seed" which is an input it runs some math on to influence what number it spits out. if you put in the same seed, you get the same number, every time.

[dreamy hawk]

And it’s Cloudflare that does that.

[pure arrow]

Durandal when he’s winning: “you buffoon you simpleton my works are eternal and my vast and trunkless legs of stone whip ass”

[dense tendon]

you can see this in rng manipulation in advanced/tool-assisted speedrunners, they take specific paths in, say, chrono trigger, to manipulate the random encounter seed (which is based on the last few buttons pressed) to ensure they get favorable spawns.

[latent python]

You notice I said "chaotic physical systems" because I know how not to fall into rhetorical pitfalls 😛

[dense tendon]

more commonly, most seeds are actually generated using the system clock, down to the millisecond.

[civic ore]

yes but it won't truly be random, it'll be psuedorandom. Random for most purposes but mathematically not truly random.

[burnt nebula]

what is random?

[dense tendon]

which often takes into account the date, as well.

nothing influenced it.

the outcome happens independantly of the cause.

[pure arrow]

Durandal when he’s losing: “ooooohhhhhh im just a widdle guuuuyyy and it’s my birthdayyyy”

[civic ore]

"what is random" is an entire college course worth of information.

[latent python]

Right, which is absolutely good enough for rolling dice for your D&D game, not good enough for cryptography

[dreamy hawk]

To be truly random every value would need to be weighed equally in chance.

[dense tendon]

yep!

[dreamy hawk]

Also.

[eternal shell]

"i'm a level 1 goblin, i'm just trying to get to the mcdonalds"

[pure arrow]

“please dont hurt meeeeee oooaaag”

[dreamy hawk]

A random sequence of events, symbols or steps often has no order and does not follow an intelligible pattern or combination. Individual random events are, by definition, unpredictable, but if there is a known probability distribution, the frequency of different outcomes over repeated events (or "trials") is predictable.[note 1] For example, when throwing two dice, the outcome of any particular roll is unpredictable, but a sum of 7 will tend to occur twice as often as 4. In this view, randomness is not haphazardness; it is a measure of uncertainty of an outcome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness

[burnt nebula]

this is my neighbourhood! open the door! now! or i will end you!

[dense tendon]

speaking of d&d, theres so much to speak about on how dice statistic works that could help this analogy make more sense but i also feel like if i open that door itll be like i opened the lament configuration from hellraiser and we'll have barbed wire gimps in our house again

[pure arrow]

Then back to making statements like “[Roland] couldn’t break me. No one can.” the second the pendulum swings back in his favor.

[dreamy hawk]

I totally could.

[burnt nebula]

so how does chat gpt choose a number?

[dreamy hawk]

Usually based off the timestamp when you ask the question, fed into an algo.

[dense tendon]

also that two dice factoid is only true for six sided dice. but the underlying principle (the average of each die will be twice as likely as the extremes) is true

[pure arrow]

It doesn’t. Choice implies intention, which an LLM does not have.

[dense tendon]

thats really a semantical distinction and not entirely helpful to actually answering the question tbh

[dreamy hawk]

It’s unlikely you will share that same “seed,” especially if it’s down to the millisecond, but if you were to ask at the exact same moment you’d get the exact same answer. Assuming that’s the way they do it.

And because you can easily replicate the output with the same input, it’s not random.

[burnt nebula]

hey chat gpt choose 2 random numbers for me, right... now!
chat gpt: explodes

[dense tendon]

lmao

[dreamy hawk]

I’m also a biologist and not a mathematician so my explanations might be wrong to some extent but close enough.

[dense tendon]

you would not believe how far my career is from this topic that i find so fascinating.

probability math, that is.

[latent python]

I know all my cryptography from reading Cryptonomicon 15 years ago

[pure arrow]

bingus

[dense tendon]

man i was on the edge of my seat for what could have been comin. i don't know how to intepret it finally turning out to be bingus lmao