📚marathon-lore-discussion

[light python]

but I don't think Bungie wants to.

Destiny is the greatest extent of that stuff,

[dreamy hawk]

PiD and Marathon are the only two IPs that have a direct connection

[plucky sierra]

In REDACTED Post-Mortem 1 discussing the possibility of an attack we read:

... appeals from the Fermi Group pre-launch resulted in lower cost "just-in-case" measures, such as the development of [REDACTED]. [REDACTED] was designed to be reprogrammable, and upon arrival in Tau Ceti IV, once initial threat assessment was deemed complete, was repurposed into [REDACTED] for [REDACTED]. Unfortunately, [REDACTED] could not be reverted in time to prevent or assist with the [REDACTED] event. 

in the ARG list of Colony AI we read this

Jo_0309421v4.69 – Resilient; optimistic; patient. Colony AI: defense, training

while in Colony era breakdown we read

  Arthur / Colony Command, Oversight 
  Lilith / Command Support, Community Relations 
             Joy / Community Outreach 
  Bastion / Colony Infrastructure Development and Expansion  
  Icarus / Astromapping, Communications/Connectivity, Transportation 
  Gabriel / Medical and Emergency Services 
  Darius / Agricultural Systems, Sustainability 
  Naraah / Aquatics, Water Management 

Not only is Joy's job different than the Pre-launch, her name is the only one indented and in the latter breakdown, the only one without an extensive paragraph about her job. I think Joy was designed for defense and reprogrammed to "emotional support" upon arrival, that could also be why she is treated as almost a surveillance ai in many codex entries

[woven stratus]

Wish I could post pics. There are several connections.

[light python]

So, they said somewhere, between the initial playtest and the release, that they would like, figure out the story. I can't remember the comment. But I think they focused really hard, in "figuring out the story", on leaving themselves a lot to work with over a multi-year timeframe of figuring out what the story is.

I think it's right to see Joy as being set up as the first big twist.

I think there are so many colony AIs so that they have a lot to work with, even if they burn them on short-term story arcs

[plucky sierra]

It is a paraverse, not a multiverse, they exist simultaneously without concrete connections. We will not get Master Chief in marathon, the most we have seen is references in Destiny because there is space-magic paracausality that can pull things into those games

[eternal shell]

i bet we'll find a backup of one of the AIs, restore it, then find out why that was a really bad idea

[plucky sierra]

Also could lead to a Joyeuse (defense) -> Joy (emotional support) difference in names

[light python]

So assuming Tau Ceti IV is a This Is Not A Place of Honor situation, and there's a kind of Case Nightmare Green situation to W'rk containement, runners running all over might cause containment to deteriorate, and we might get... weird multiversal shit.

(Sorry if that was kind of Tarmok and Jelud at Tenagra, I can expand those concepts if necessary)

[plucky sierra]

Wr'knkacnter isn't multiversal, Jjaro tech is

[dreamy hawk]

https://bungie.fandom.com/wiki/Bungie_Mythos

[median hemlock]

at best you get little nods like the light ammo pistol being "CE"

[light python]

So if I may break lore containment to talk about the business for a moment, I suspect that at some point cat ears and cowboy hats must be sold, and that this has lore implications, because the aesthetic justification for those things can come from several places.

[woven stratus]

Joyeuse Cortana and Durandal are siblings. I don't want master chief in Marathon. But it would be dope as hell to run extractions in those universes not just this one. Durandal says he visited the Sol system and warned earth of the coming darkness. And then the Traveler shows up in Destiny and saves Earth from darkness. Also, the MIDA notebook directly states the date of UESC Marathons departure. Maybe the connections aren't directly in the plot of each game but the crumbs are there and they lead to direct connections if you follow the crumbs.

[light python]

And some of that aesthetic groundwork has already been layed by the flavor text for their existing premium skins - there are hotrodding crews getting up to all kinds of vulgate culture and peddling it to runners.

[hallow vector]

everyone said nice things to me immediately after the automod timed me out for saying a slightly naughty word

[dreamy hawk]

https://bungie.fandom.com/wiki/The_Webmaster

[plucky sierra]

Marathon already has it's own fleshed out multiverse, there are no concrete connections

[hallow vector]

i wouldn't mind a little mida multitool style crossover with destiny, as long as destiny doesn't get any star wars in my marathon

[plucky sierra]

Marathon already seems to be good at having lore exlinations for skins, like the White Rabbit skin

[dreamy hawk]

Automod loves doing that. Note you can say “shit,” but if you say “t*ts up” you’re gone.

[median hemlock]

the problem with all the "marathon is part of every bungie game! its all connected!" theories is that marathon was there first and those games just recycled a lot of marathon concepts lol

[plucky sierra]

The Stryder is the Multitool

[hallow vector]

no it isn't because i don't know what that is /j

[median hemlock]

it's working backwards to justify a shared bungieverse when that wouldn't really enrich any of those stories

[plucky sierra]

the M1T (Mida single tool) Stryder is basically Marathon's Multitool

[woven stratus]

No it just a reused concept remember?

[hallow vector]

i meant more in the sense that i wouldn't mind a gun from destiny showing up in marathon

[light python]

The multitool in destiny had all kinds of AI-supported additional functionality because AI references are also part of the "see see it's Marathon you get it" package

[plucky sierra]

There is concrete Marathon lore revelations within Destiny

[median hemlock]

yeah i'd be surprised to not see any little outward references to destiny or whatever

[eternal shell]

i vote warden's law

[median hemlock]

but i expect them to be references, not "marathon is going to be destiny 3" like some people want to believe

[fathom kettle]

wasnt there one gun in Destiny that was about strauss?

[dreamy hawk]

You can argue that being pastiche isn’t very creative, but that would be very lacking in creativity imo.

[woven stratus]

How can there be concrete lore revelations but there are no concrete connections?

[plucky sierra]

yeah the MIDA mini tool

[plucky sierra]

It is a Paraverse, not Multiverse

[median hemlock]

i think mixing them so directly would be a disservice to everybody

[light python]

Anyway to complete the thought I embarked on, W'rk hallucinations/manifestations as containment fails could be how we get, say, a halloween event,

[scenic iron]

What happened to the part of the Marathon that extends in the front. Those long pieces from the main structure of the ship? Were they destroyed in the attack?

[hallow vector]

probably blowed up a bit yeah

[dreamy hawk]

The struts inside Deimos?

In the front…

[light python]

or other weirdnesses with chaotic/standalone references to, without loss of generality, Assassin's Creed thrown in

[scenic iron]

Front

[median hemlock]

lmfao

in a single run:

• collect [0/5] candy
• get home before 10pm
• dcon 2 pieces of candy for durandal

[dreamy hawk]

IDK my bff Jill.

[fathom kettle]

Idk if I remember the lore correctly but strauss was a double agent right?

[dreamy hawk]

Maybe.

[scenic iron]

A double agent for who

[dreamy hawk]

Maybe MIDA, maybe himself, maybe some secret cabal.

[light python]

I think he was more uh, shoot, I got banned for using the word directly before, uh, billionare-financed secret society kind of guy

[hallow vector]

strauss was kinda a bastard anyway right?

[median hemlock]

he's working for/with the UESC but said outright like, "the marathon is the only good idea the UESC has had for a long time"

[fathom kettle]

Im not exactly sure and I could be wrong but he worked for MIDA and some other organization back on earth

[dreamy hawk]

Always.

[eternal shell]

was he a bit illuminaughty

[light python]

can such a person really be a double agent, or is he more involved in a shocking amount of things while actually standing outside the structures of those things?

[dreamy hawk]

This isn’t confirmed, but is the working assumption.

[dreamy hawk]

Less of a double agent and more playing all the sides imo.

[median hemlock]

oop i swore too hard about strauss

[dreamy hawk]

He thinks he’s the smartest man around. Period.

[median hemlock]

he's a bastard for sure, we don't even know how bad he is

[hallow vector]

stars i'm so paranoid about the automod now

[fathom kettle]

Like Strauss was on the Marathon and supposedly an agent of MIDA working on AI but also at the same time working for a secret cabal

[scenic iron]

The mission of the Marathon was to capture alien technology, correct?

[median hemlock]

i'm not sure what i said that caught it 🤷‍♀️

[dreamy hawk]

No. But maybe.

[light python]

A little bit of a "scientist that goes to parties on private islands and also gets highly placed in administrative posts despite alleged ties to problematic groups" kind of guy

[plucky sierra]

Bungie is very particular when it comes to crossovers.
Anything not bungie is "from far away legends"
Anything from within the Bungie Mythos is described as paracausally pulled from other realities

[dreamy hawk]

It was to colonize TCIV. But they did pick TCIV because of the presence of something REDACTED.

[median hemlock]

they could retcon towards something like that, but like, the phfor showed up because durandal alerted them to the marathon existing

[plucky sierra]

Destiny Confirmed he is working with MIDA, whether that destiny lore is canon is yet to be seen

[woven stratus]

Mirrored? Maybe if Cortana wasn't in Halo. We can argue connections all day but one thing that can't be argued is that they are siblings. They come from a real life legend of swords made for Charlemagnes paladins. Durandal Cortana and Joyeuse. Bungie has used all 3 names in their games. That could be just a cool design choice but considering how Durandal and Cortana reference each other in their own universes, I would say it leans more towards separate universes than mirrored ones.

[median hemlock]

it was just a straightfoward colonization project, as far as we know, there's mysterious motives hinted at but nothing really concrete

[scenic iron]

Backstabbing AI I tell ya 😔

[dreamy hawk]

👀

[light python]

So I think MIDA and Strauss and the military cyborgs and the arms caches were part of a back-room settlement

[fathom kettle]

I wonder if we will see the Pfohr in the game

[light python]

If the Marathon was in part a ploy to get hands on alien tech, it would be Jjarro, not Pfhor

[median hemlock]

we've already got a compiler kicking around and a narrative justification for being dropped into various hostile environments, i'd be shocked if we don't see them at some point

[scenic iron]

The colony on the planet has been dead for over a 100 years by the time we get there?

[hallow vector]

the pfhor better be showing up

[light python]

Because Bill Clinton, another Strauss-buddy kind of guy,

[hallow vector]

we can't be fighting silly little robots forever

[median hemlock]

yeah that's the only viable explanation i can see tbqh

[fathom kettle]

The Pfohr are a very spiteful race since they just blew up the systems of those they couldnt enslave so them hangign around tau ceti would make sense

[light python]

met one and might have eventually passed some information about what they were broadly up to along to some similar sort of people

[scenic iron]

Maybe they are on the Marathon waiting for us to "find" them

[median hemlock]

my bet is that after the story progresses a bit, durandal is going to be lobbing runners at his problems cyborg style

[hallow vector]

their empire went kinda sideways after the spht were freed afaik, but i can see some imperial remnant showing up

[light python]

Anyway I'm just going to use the phrase "The Strauss class" and figure everyone knows what I mean from now on.

[median hemlock]

the new game being set when it is means that things could really go in a lot of directions

[plucky sierra]

Every bungie game is within it's own fully contained universe (maybe multiverse, with Marathon), see Flower Game, Unveiling Lore Destiny 2. The Universe of Destiny introduced Paracasuality (space magic) into reality and because it does not follow universal rules beings like The Nine can affect reality even bring things from other realities into the Destiny reality. There is no crossover the other way afawk. Despite their distinct differences universal themes are parallel to each other in many ways, and that is often the extent of the connections.

[fathom kettle]

Maybe encounter Mjolnir recon 54? Or some other Battleroids?

[median hemlock]

infinity is important but it takes place a little further down the line to the point that i'm unsure it'll have much bearing on nu~marathon (timeline jumping aside; would be shocked to not see that to some extent)

[light python]

(Man I sound like I mean some kind of racist thing, talking around word bans sucks, I promise it's not a racist thing.)

[dreamy hawk]

I doubt it. There might be some stashed somewhere, but I think they're gone at this point and more likely to return than be stumbled upon.

[plucky sierra]

we are currently later than the events of Marathon Infinity

[light python]

Which Durandal, though?

[median hemlock]

eh.... one raid boss battle against one of the cyborgs would be cool but i don't really think they're going to be relevant - remember, the non player character battleroids were all living on tau ceti iv

[dreamy hawk]

Inifnity has (presumably) happened.

[median hemlock]

and tau ceti iv did not exactly pan out

[light python]

I think one Durandal probably doesn't have runner-responsive problems right now, though, maybe.

The other Durandal... is frankly more grounded/interesting.

He needs pettier things

[dreamy hawk]

If Eager Reveries is a S'pht talking to him, he's off living his best life, abandoning the S'pht.

[plucky sierra]

NONA implies they were shunned from the colony

they could be around

[eternal shell]

lore-accurate battleroids would fold us like laundry heh

[median hemlock]

did they ever elaborate on how durandal is around in cryo while also being off the ship

or is that still something we've yet to learn

[dreamy hawk]

The order of events there doesn't work. They get shunned before climbing aboard the boat.

[light python]

There are theories! I'm very fond of mine:

[dreamy hawk]

I think the shunning is more in general, like when they were outlawed.

[plucky sierra]

yes, encrypted communique pages 3 and 4

[hallow vector]

aren't shells an evolution of battleroids?

[scenic iron]

So the Durandal on the Marathon is not the true or main AI? It's just a shadow of the OG etc

[dreamy hawk]

ish but in a different vein entirely.

[median hemlock]

i like to joke about how the compiler in cryo should have 100% aggro towards destroyer shells because it recognizes the helmet

[hallow vector]

the helmet of the guy who saved them???

[fathom kettle]

Maybe some survived after the Pfohr attack

[light python]

Durandal exists as "High Durandal" who abandoned the S'phit after Infinity and is gallivanting, and "Low Durandal" who is the bits of "expand into every possible crack and subvert it to be you" that got left behind when Durandal stole the Pfhor's ship and has been turning back into a real live Durandal for 100 years in cryoarchive

[dreamy hawk]

Durandal saved them. The SO was just along for the ride.

[median hemlock]

maybe similar lines of thought, but nah, battleroids are terrifying nightmare death machines, shells are al ittle too squishy

[scenic iron]

The Compiler is evil, right? It killed all the humans onboard?

[woven stratus]

A player found this hidden message from 1.3 version of Myth. Not sure if you're aware of the lore so I'll quote it to you.

"That was surprisingly easy. Pretty lax security around here, for all the talk. They will
be helplessly chasing me around their nodes for the next millenium at least. At least
there will be some joy in tormenting this other entity that seems quite "trapped" in
their excuse for a network. Although, for some reason, it does seem to have an obsessive
preoccupation with my mother. Strange.

At any rate, I found this "message" in a relatively archaic databank and thought some of
you might find it of interest. Then again, I'm often either bemused or startled at the
items you find interesting.

I'm still not sure what it is he saw in you.

Cortana"

[median hemlock]

the sec officer killed a lot of compilers on the marathon :p

[fathom kettle]

A Battleroid boss could be interesting if possible. We could see what they can do

[hallow vector]

yeah, they knew why though!

[light python]

Low Durandal is the one we're dealing with, but his essential nature is still Durandal-y and he may or may not even know that he escaped, too.

[median hemlock]

that's why it was a joke and not a serious lore analysis ;p

[hallow vector]

ah, the joke, my great nemesis

[median hemlock]

down you immediately, most likely

[scenic iron]

Oh ok 👌

Too bad we won't be able to meet the other AI from the Marathon 😔

[dreamy hawk]

We could but I'm not certain, yet.

[fathom kettle]

Im built different I can handle it

[light python]

Who, canonoically, deliberatrely fought poorly and at some point wanted him to win

[dreamy hawk]

Infinity rewrote and retconned a lot of the earlier games, both in explicit ways, and in unkown ways. If that's what we're working with, which looks like we are, a lot of things can play out different than they did in the OG games.

[median hemlock]

i know that i was telling a joke

[scenic iron]

That will be fun for sure

[dreamy hawk]

Bungie has given themselves a playground full of toys to choose from, but with just as much open space to explore and build something new, which I think, is very exciting and the best of both worlds.

[plucky sierra]

yes, the cortana letters, written before Halo had a concrete story. Very reliable

[median hemlock]

100%

i don't really want to see them go back to everything that was already explored in older games, we already know about that stuff

[dreamy hawk]

Agreed. I want the old lore inform the new, but I don't want to just replay the OG games I've already played. They're still there, (mostly) playable, if I want to do that.

[median hemlock]

this universe is so vast and crazy, we have an empire of slavers who incorporate various races into their war machine, why would we limit ourselves to only the guys that we saw before

[light python]

I think Jason Jones is bored of that stuff too, as much as he likes and has reused it one thousand times.

[dreamy hawk]

With insane bureaucracies and a pathetically boring religion to boot.

[light python]

I really want to shoot dumb spindly bugs with yellow blood and have them warble as they die though

I mean, this is not an "exploration" this is just an experience I want to have served up again at some point.

[hallow vector]

we can stand to take durandal's disses with a pinch of salt, considering the mania

[median hemlock]

the pfhor work under an intelligence so fucked up that those who interact with it directly describe it as "insane"

there is a lot you could do there

[woven stratus]

Not sure what you're trying to say. She refers to Durandal directly. Cementing their connection to each other. Long before any other games were made, so yes, they are indeed reliable.

[hallow vector]

keep in mind halo's been decanonized as it pertains to marathon, 343 has had to crub the more blatant references from the franchise even

[plucky sierra]

Yes, when Halo CE was going to be Marathon 4, before the story direction shifted to being separate

[dreamy hawk]

Halo was going to be a Marathon game, then it wasn't.

[hallow vector]

halo is no longer bungie's thing, so they can't be tying anything to it

[dreamy hawk]

There are, iirc, Drinnol models that were made for Halo CE that we never saw, too.

[plucky sierra]

I mean they did in destiny

[hallow vector]

more than a vague reference? i genuinely don't know about this

but like, star wars is in destiny, so idk

[fathom kettle]

Do you think Marathon 2026 plays after Infinity or is infinity even canon?

[dreamy hawk]

Post infinity, infinity likely canon.

[hallow vector]

it's after infinity chronologically at least, but infinity has the timeline shenanigans so who knows if it even happened

[dreamy hawk]

All TBD, really.

[median hemlock]

its kinda hard to say that anything is "before" or "after" infinity

but nothing we've seen suggests it isnt canon

[woven stratus]

So then for all intents and purposes, why is it wrong to think its a multiverse created by Durandal to escape?

[hallow vector]

it's a bit of a walk

[median hemlock]

you can think whatever you want, and it isn't "wrong", but you're in a marathon lore channel, all the people who are nerds about this series are in here and most do not love the idea of "look guys its my good buddy cortana hanging out with me on the marathon"

[fathom kettle]

The way I understand it now is that:
Marathon -> Marathon 2 (until w´rkncacenter is unleashed) -> Marathon Infinity -> Marathon 2 epilogue -> Marathon Infinity epilogue
with Marathon 2026 being in between the end of infinity and marathon 2 epilogue

[median hemlock]

there's also exactly zero evidence suggesting we're in a "multiverse" where we're going to see master chief or something

[dreamy hawk]

#📚marathon-lore-discussion message with some recent modifications/things we've since learned.

[median hemlock]

there are, at best, easter eggs and references

[woven stratus]

When did i ever say that? I literally said I dont want that. But it would be cool to timeline hop in the current game. Thats it. I dont want Cortana or master chief or mfn Zavala. I just thought it would be cool as shit to chase Durandal throughout the timelines he created. My fn bad 🙄

[dreamy hawk]

As a matter of opinion, it's not, and you would not be alone in liking this idea/believing in a multiverse. Nor is wanting to hop after Durandal like you've said. What I can tell you is that you won't find many people in this channel that agree with the multiverse, or find tie-ins to it compelling, for various reasons.

[median hemlock]

i have no idea what you are trying to say and i don't love how you are jumping on me

[plucky sierra]

"I would really like to see Bungie lean into the newly discovered multiverse we have. Imagine running matches in Gulch from Halo. Or one of the planets from Destiny. They could do so much with this game."

[hallow vector]

aren't the planets in destiny all in the sol system

[dreamy hawk]

Didn't they introduce something in the most recent season? IDK. I haven't been keeping up.

[woven stratus]

Never said I wanted any characters from the games did I? Nope. Good thing you lot arent in charge of the game or the lore cause you're boring and quite rude.

[hallow vector]

i stopped playing destiny when they started vaulting things i paid for

[plucky sierra]

Earth from the hit game Destiny 2™

[plucky sierra]

still sol system, just further out

[median hemlock]

random thought ive had for a bit now: i wonder if modern internet culture is causing a lot of this disparity of opinion?

like, don't get me wrong, i read big two comic books, i am not unfamiliar or uninterested with shared universes and such, but the deluge of "media EXPLAINED" and Game Theories TM where fan ideas about shared universes take on a lot more weight than they ever used to is impossible to ignore - the little references and hints towards other work by the same studio takes on a new light when you're approaching easter eggs and references as like, A Sign of something, instead of just a little nod

[hallow vector]

bungie does own earth i suppose, dang

[dreamy hawk]

TIL that disagreeing with opinions constitutes rudeness.

[median hemlock]

happens every time without fail lol. "explain to me exactly why the things im saying are objectively wrong, but also, if you disagree with me im going to attack you"

[dreamy hawk]

I blame Marvel. I think there's a more nuanced conversation to be had, but the concept has been brought to the forefront of the cultural memory imo.

[median hemlock]

i think the MCU is a symptom and not the cause honestly

there's been this trend for a while now and the MCU is merely the perfect food for people who operate that way, because like - in comic book universes, the shared aspects are explicitly part of the draw

[plucky sierra]

There are lore explanations for the "easter eggs" in destiny, a privilege no other IP gets with Destiny's numerous crossover cosmetics and stuff. They are directly connected within Destiny's universe

o

[hallow vector]

shush

[median hemlock]

i don't want everything to be part of a shared universe like that, but i do enjoy when they exist in their own contexts

crowbarring shared media universes into existing stuff is rough tho

[hallow vector]

my fingers were so misaligned

[light python]

Issac Asamov, Robert Heinlein, Steven King all did this to themselves

[hallow vector]

anyway i am very uninterested in having a nuanced conversation about the MCU lately, mostly i prefer to forget it exists

[median hemlock]

yeah it's not like these concepts are brand new or anythin

i've not read the dark tower but i do know that everyone pogs about the references in king's works

[plucky sierra]

people can't really understand how bungie has things connected in lore while being separate at the same time, but there is lore explaining it. Not "Master Chief in Marathon" levels but not completely unique and disconnected either

[median hemlock]

i think those are fine because those are, very explicitly, all one guy doing it with his own work, and not people coming to an established setting decades later to do somethin new with it

[dreamy hawk]

Doesn't King have a proper multiverse, though?

[hallow vector]

yeah king's stuff is explicitly all happening in the same maine, with the exception of some stuff like the stand

[median hemlock]

the stand is still suggested to be part of it, but a little less subtly than "and here's The Gunslinger From The Dark Tower"

[hallow vector]

not even a multiverse, with the exception of the dark tower which is explicitly EXTREMELY multiversial

[woven stratus]

The rudeness stems from shooting down everything i have to say. Not disagreement. You can disagree and not make someone feel stupid for speaking. The connections are there, in the lore, in easter eggs in each game, symbolism... its there. You dont have to believe they are connected but when Bungie themselves have said all of their games are connected, its hard to believe otherwise when you see the evidence. But I'm just some idiot on the internet, what do I know.

[eternal knoll]

creating a new universe always just seemed to me a natural extension of escaping one universe’s closure and “becoming god.” fun to hint that future games are tied into that procession somehow. don’t need it explicitly dramatized tho

[hallow vector]

"Go then, there are other worlds than this one" goes hard

hey wild thing to say maybe but stephen king's a good author

i know that's controversial

[earnest hatch]

I would pay even more money for this

[plucky sierra]

not connected like you think though. We will never see explicit "Marathon in halo or destiny maps" that is not how they connect things

[light python]

I think it depends on which Stephen King you're talking about, real "if by whiskey" situation

[median hemlock]

for sure, i think it's a theory that is cute and fun, but not like, something i need solidified into Lore

[light python]

I think it's Possibility Space stuff, like, Marathon if competently handled will keep that space open rather than explored

[plucky sierra]

it is already in bungie lore

[light python]

Destiny had ravenous character and lore needs,

that it was constantly under-or-overshooting

I think the code and the story of this game and setting are designed to be played out much more sustainably and obliquely

[plucky sierra]

Destiny explains the paraversal connections in ways that leave it "oh thats a fun connection/crossover weapon" not "time to play as a guardian in Dire Marsh"

[light python]

Maximal asset reuse with minimal ennui

[eternal knoll]

like if there’s a procession of gods and universes then halo could be the next one after marathon or it could be a thousand big bangs and big crunches later. def no need to answer that question

[gritty burrow]

@normal star https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/premium-tick-milk/tick-milk-education?search=Tick+milk

[dreamy hawk]

I want to address this earnestly because folks shouldn't be made to feel stupid when they participate here. Lore is for everyone to discuss, and I would be open to hearing how the conversation could have been made to feel more like a discussion and less like shooting you down. I feel like folks here did a good job explaining why they don't agree, providing rationales instead of one word answers, but I would be open to hearing how "we" could have done better.

[median hemlock]

oh the chud is back

[woven stratus]

Onepeg actually has some videos covering a lot of this.

[median hemlock]

this is a very kindhearted thing to write, i personally did not have the energy for it after i got randomly hit with the personal attacks but i respect and appreciate it

[normal star]

yeah i recall the poop thing but it causing the illness that spread throughout the colony? that was described as a bioweapon originating from a mushroom back druing the newcal quests

[light python]

Interesting that ignoring a chud doesn't ignore their reacji

[median hemlock]

you gotta block them to stop them from reacting to your posts

weird oversight

i guess they have different purposes as tools

[scenic iron]

What are the chances of finding or meeting some of the colonial people

[fathom kettle]

Getting mad over lore is very silly lol

[light python]

I saw a contingency plan to get back in the Marathon

[median hemlock]

i'm gonna go with a fat zero, or at least close to it

[normal star]

unless im missing something from the lore entry, they talked about many methods of quarrantine and i think that would include the food.

[light python]

if they did that, if they put themselves back in cryo at the end,

It's possible they're in some locked corner of Cryoarchive,

or even that the compiler was in fact keeping them alive,

[fathom kettle]

Btw do you guys think the anomalous material is Jjaro or W'rkncacenter related?

[plucky sierra]

[light python]

or that there were other cryo facilities elsewhere on the huge ship that they used at a much smaller scale, etc.

[plucky sierra]

-# this again

[scenic iron]

There are cryo bags in the Cryo Archive etc

[dreamy hawk]

W'rk! But I'm about to get flayed for saying that. 😆

[fathom kettle]

First time?

[plucky sierra]

it is a never ending debate between LordRollin and I

[dreamy hawk]

Gotta make a private chat if we don't want to repeat ourselves. 😆

[dreamy hawk]

Dance with waves and tides*

[fathom kettle]

I'm going off a leg here and gonna say Jjaro

[woven stratus]

I'd be happy to oblige. There's a big difference in saying, "Yeah I see what you're saying, but I don't really agree." And "I don't like that idea, you're wrong."

[plucky sierra]

That is what I think

[latent python]

I'm going to say it's the fourth w'rkncacnter

[light python]

As far as what we know, it really could be either! My this is not a place of honor hypothesis allows for it to be either directed defensive/discouragement behavior by the containment system (Jjarro) or the beginning of the failure of the containment system (W'rk) or some combination thereof. I also believe in Schismogenisis, which is to say, the difference between Jjarro and W'rk is how they act, not what they are, necessarily.

[median hemlock]

on the other end, it can be very frustrating when someone ignores your thoughts and ideas in favor of pushing theirs, and then lashes out after people don't agree with it

[plucky sierra]

We should keep a tally

W'rk	Jjaro

2      |     3     
        |              
        |

[fathom kettle]

Idk how or why a W'rkncacenter would be ok Tau Ceti and nothing implies this

[median hemlock]

nobody was calling you names or saying You're A WRong Idiot but you sure did attack as if they did

[latent python]

Definitely ask Rollin

[fathom kettle]

Maybe in the sun of the system since that seems to be the only way to contain them but not on tau ceti

[eternal knoll]

the implications that it’s a wrk seem clear. trapped in a stellar body, causes time distortions. could always be another thing that behaves in a wrkish manner…

[plucky sierra]

Wr'k doesnt do Time distortions, Jjaro do

[dreamy hawk]

The idea is that the Jjaro took the PiD w'rk from Earth and made TCIV as a custom prison to house it. But this idea isn't without its own issues.

[light python]

Put me in both columns! Though, uh, actually, I do slightly favor the Jjarro hypothesis because of the "W'rk causing Jjarro malfunction" scenario.

[median hemlock]

i just don't see it, i think the energy of an active sun is how they were able to actually contain these beings

[latent python]

(this is a forever argument, unresolvable with what we currently know)

[fathom kettle]

Seems more sensible to contain it in a sun since that's what always worked

[light python]

Well, that's one

[median hemlock]

but yeah its all just theory until we learn more

[latent python]

Yesss somebody on my side

[dreamy hawk]

There is an entry from the OG games that confirms its not just suns. Let me find it.

[light python]

Maybe "the big one" or "the last one" or something

[eternal knoll]

possibly. it always looked to me that what goes on in infinity is an interaction btw the jjarro tech and the wrk, not simply one or the other

[dreamy hawk]

That terminal is for you, too.

[median hemlock]

fair enough i don't remember that one

[plucky sierra]

it is gravity

[light python]

But if it was a W'rk and not a lil' w'rk kid or something on the Yucatan,

[lunar cove]

I think it'd be really funny if there was a mayan pyramid on Tau Ceti

[light python]

and this even could be the same thing,

[dreamy hawk]

Gravity is what the Jjaro use to trap w'rks. Anything with enough gravity.

[light python]

we know they stashed them on a planet at least once.

[eternal knoll]

yes plZ

[woven stratus]

Are you projecting? Because you quite literally did exactly that, except you didn't lash out I did. I don't remember anything you contributed to the debate other than me being wrong. You couldn't even argue why, just that you didn't like it.

[median hemlock]

i'm just not sure the jjaro would choose a planet that is, for all intents and purposes, pretty similar to earth, which was already failing to contain one

[plucky sierra]

According to the legends of a thousand worlds only a few of which are still habitable, the W'rkncacnter are those things that live in chaos, creating it around them.  At the beginning of the universe, they were unmistakable in their entities, but as time has gone by, their existence has become difficult to detect among the chaotic elements of the universe, hidden in stars, trapped in storms, forever looking along the event horizons of black holes.  Setting one free in ordered space is difficult and insane.

[lunar cove]

Crazy how the ancient aliens show in the Marathon setting would actually be true like yeah, at least one Pyramid was built by an alien

[fathom kettle]

I doubt we will fight a W'rkncacenter since tf is a shell supposed to do?

[plucky sierra]

-# planets are not mentioned

[dreamy hawk]

I was just about to paste. >.>

Thank you! xD

@median hemlock @lunar cove Felwinter came in clutch.

[eternal knoll]

hop around timelines and prevent it from awakening by killing shitloads of pfhor perhaps

[median hemlock]

you'll have much better luck if you stop trying to escalate like this

[light python]

If you are asking if someone is projecting, you have an opportunity to do some more introspection before you start arguing about what people did or meant or said. Arguments about what people did or said are furthering a miscommunication, rather than resolving it. You could instead ask questions about what the person meant when they said something, or how they would like you to have read it. Curiosity and generosity are incredibly puissant social technologies.

[dreamy hawk]

Earth wasn't contaiment, though. Earth was a car crash and they just took millions of years to arrive on scene.

[lunar cove]

IMO, anything involving a Wrkncacnter in nuMarathon would be focused around symptom management and preventing it waking rather than fighting it

[median hemlock]

i see what you're saying, but i just don't think the gravity of a human habitable planet is anywhere near the same level of energy as that of a sun or black hole

[fathom kettle]

Stealing some Pfohr tech while you're at it

[dreamy hawk]

gestures in advanced god-like alien gravity manipulation technology

[latent python]

Fortunately (?) I don't think our shells will ever be up for taking a spin around the timelines, that seemed like specifically an SO thing

[median hemlock]

that's what i mean - i can't see the hyper intelligent race of aliens saving reality from an eldritch god would half ass their containment plan

[plucky sierra]

and that wouldn't be as cool as doing things to or in the anomaly

[fathom kettle]

I think rn the plan is to set everything up (Pfohr, Jjarro and such) and then maybe down the line a w´rkncacenter plotline

[lunar cove]

It could also be something entirely new

[light python]

Okay so we know about W'rk and they're cosmic-level threats.

We know about "The Dreaming God" and that's a planet-level plus threat, seriousness unspecified.

[fathom kettle]

so get everything we already know set up and then after maybe some new stuff

[dreamy hawk]

There is the one entry that suggest that TCIV is an artificial construct. What if it's like Onyx, instead of Earth?

[light python]

I have always assumed they were the same but I am now thinking, what if they're not?

[dreamy hawk]

(and for the record I'm officially w'rk skeptical now, I just bet Felwinter it is a w'rk, though, so I'm dying on the hill until proven wrong)

[eternal knoll]

theres a number of ways you could justify it. maybe the jjaro anticipated humanity would go mess with the PiD wrk on tau ceti and figured it was a lesson they would need to learn at that time, for instance

[plucky sierra]

it was Terraformed by the Jjaro like Lhowon for purposes unknown

[fathom kettle]

you mean the w´rk in PiD is a different one?

[median hemlock]

if anything i think the jjaro would be smart enough to not go "okay, this is the nearest habitable planet to this unenlighted race. lets dump the reality killer in there"

they've gotta be aware that humans are gonna reach out there eventually lmao

[fathom kettle]

or a lesser W´rk

[dreamy hawk]

I think more than just terraformed given the gap in the asteroid belt.

That's a lot of mass, seems like.

[median hemlock]

i dunno wrks are a little too large scale of a problem to be worth teaching one race a lesson

[latent python]

I do like the idea of TCIV being an artificial planet or genius loci of some sort, just hoping not because of wrk shenanigans

[light python]

No I mean what if the entity in PiD is not a W'rk but something else, possibly related.

[light python]

Okay but you know what is dumb as rocks? Thoth.

[fathom kettle]

Maybe its a baby w´rk or smth?

[plucky sierra]

Secret Jjaro station (like the Aye Mak Sicur station in orbit around Lh'owon)

[fathom kettle]

if thats possible

[dreamy hawk]

(also if I am right, I promise to be as insufferable as possible)

[eternal knoll]

i think it would be a lil confusing to introduce something so like a wrk which is not a wrk, but it’s always possible

[median hemlock]

i think the main problem with a wrk is how like, once you introduce it, you cannot put that geinie back in the bottle; you have established that This Thing Will Destroy Reality if it gets out, those are impossibly high stakes

[light python]

Do we think it was a real Jjarro that told the United States President of 1996 that he would drop by and handle the lil' alien problem, or a post-Jjaro automated system?

[light python]

I mean, they're timeline jumping stakes.

[dreamy hawk]

Put that thing back where it came from or so help me!

[light python]

Though, they're also "containment system fixing stakes"

[earnest hatch]

I personally think it’s an automated message. Doesn’t the PiD manual even say something to that effect?

[fathom kettle]

I think the latter personally

[latent python]

W'rkncacnter? No, this is a w'rkncarctntr. Totally different

[median hemlock]

sure, and i'm not saying nu~marathon could never have one as a plot device, but i just cannot imagine season 2 is gonna be like "uh oh! the anomalous stuff is because the killer space gods are responsible"

[light python]

So an idiot like Thoth came by and moved the cogneto-hazard away from all the sentients for a bit

[lunar cove]

I think it was textually a real Jjaro, but what PiD originally intended and what Marathon eventually canonized are two different things

[eternal knoll]

for the record while
i do think it’s probably a tau ceti wrk i also think that’s a lil like a tattoine death star and would be pleased if they could convincingly say it’s actually somethin else

[dreamy hawk]

The Forerunners failed to contain the flood at every turn, depsite their best efforts. I'm just sayin'.

[light python]

("cogneto-hazard" is not quite right, I think CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN type thing where sentients feed its chaos is possible, more like cogneto-accelerated fire, maybe?)

[fathom kettle]

what if the W´rkncacenter destroys the tau ceti system and now we scavange on lh´owon (my crack theory)

[plucky sierra]

Pfhorrest has pointed out that the spelling for the Egyptian god can be Thoth or Toth

[lunar cove]

Pathways predated Marathon so the rules and backstory and universe weren't as established

[dreamy hawk]

Lhowon is inside the event horizon of a singularity.

There is no Lhowon.

[latent python]

Forerunners should've thought to have a master chief

[median hemlock]

its not like bungie over the years has been afraid to retcon or rwrite things anyway

[dreamy hawk]

Lhowon is Lhgone.

[median hemlock]

the key thing that wiped out every bungie precursor race is that they didn't have a guy who is really good at shooting guns and was created by horrific war crimes

[fathom kettle]

ok but what if we time travel like infinity?

[latent python]

Common oversight

[light python]

I want Lh'owon real bad, would be perfect for extraction shooter, Marathon setting is wild enough in various ways to allow for it.

[dreamy hawk]

The solution to Infinity was collapsing the star, so if we're in that timeline like we think we are, then no. But if we're in another timeline, then why not. I don't think time line shenangians are going to become mainstream in NuMarathon given how cofnsuing they get, though.

[light python]

(But so too would be the "rogue star" Durandal mentions at the end of M2, various other places we haven't been.

[median hemlock]

my stance on all "but the timeline hopping" stuff is

sure okay, but if we're going to let timeline hopping account for and explain every single piece of jarring writing or inconsistent lore, it gets kinda hard to be invested

[fathom kettle]

maybe some pfohr world instead?

[eternal knoll]

wonder what itd look like in this game’s style. a real puzzle for the designers

[latent python]

And also our shells probably shouldn't be able to do it

[dreamy hawk]

I would be interested in seeing it, rendered in modern graphics. That'd be cool. But I don't think we'll leave Tau Ceti.

[median hemlock]

i am reminded of bioshock infinite, which has timeline hopping as a plot device, but it also pays no attention to where in the multiverse the protagonists are - you jump universes like twice in order to fuilfill a bargain for people who are not even in the universe you go to

[light python]

They have done total new aesthetic reveals before (Dreaming City)

They can play with the contrast, jarring UESC expedition parts with ancient alien architecture parts and Pfhor outpost parts, etc.

[dreamy hawk]

I could be wrong, but FTL/space travel is hard in Marathon, so I doubt they'll handwave that away and suddenly have us boucning around the galaxy. NuMarathon, at least so far, is the story of TCIV and the Marathon.

[hallow vector]

tbf bioshock infinite also just has terrible, awful no-good writing

[latent python]

My thought/hope is a Pfhor ship shows up and we get to do runs on that

[light python]

I mean, FTL is one ship-jacking away

[dreamy hawk]

This is the only way I see it happening, and if it isn't the Boomer, I quit.

But it's that other ship now, right? Should be the...

[median hemlock]

i think we're at the cusp of humanity starting to discover FTL travel, they have it in 2 iirc/infinity for sure

however runners are still perfect for that - "oh, we have experimental FTL travel but we don't want to test it on living humans, just warp a runner manufacturing station over there and they can figure it out"

[light python]

Didn't Boomer get wrecked in most candidate timelines for us to be "later" than?

[hallow vector]

boomer has retroactively become such a good name

[latent python]

The Boomer shows up, Durandal Prime is like "why the f did IDEAurandal let you on the Marathon"

[dreamy hawk]

What's the name of Durandal's Jjaro ship?

[light python]

Durandal gave it to them in the scenarios where they have it I think, and that doesn't appear to have happened here.

Manus Celeris Dei

[hallow vector]

boomer shooter is a type of game set aboard a spaceship like boomer :)

[dreamy hawk]

Well, my annoying point is that they've technically had it for 500 years before the Marathon was even dreamt up.

[median hemlock]

i was very much not a destiny player but i think the planet hopping that series established will show up in nu marathon

you really can just say "oh there's a pfhor outpost here with something i need" or "there's jjaro ruins on this barren moon, check it out"

[dreamy hawk]

But I understand your point/agree.

[light python]

Disagree. Teleportation not necessarily FTL

[median hemlock]

matter transfers are too limited to really qualify as FTL "travel" id say

[dreamy hawk]

1. Absolutely is. 2) The SO mentions that Pfhor FTL looks the same as teleportation.

[light python]

The Tuncer Mirage Effect is clearly a related phenomenon

[dreamy hawk]

If I can get from point A to B instantly, that is, by defintion, faster than light.

[median hemlock]

being able to transport matter between fixed points is very impressive tech but it requires the infrastructure in place to get from A to B

[dreamy hawk]

And I'm technically correct, which is the best kind of correct.

[light python]

So, there are like, two layers to disagreement/agreement here

[median hemlock]

if you could magically set up matter transfer points anywhere in space then, yeah, that's FTL travel in all but name

[hallow vector]

you might not notice if your point to point teleport transpires at the speed of light, might feel instant even if it's not

[median hemlock]

but i think "FTL travel" here is more to do with like, spacefaring craft

[light python]

I think you could say that it moves at the speed of the coordination mechanism, and so human teleportation was constrained by human telecoms/bandwidth/data about some important relationship between source and dest

[dreamy hawk]

You also don't need a reciever. We see in the OG games you just need a launch pad/starting point.

[median hemlock]

im also not convinced matter transfers happen at lightspeed anyways

[plucky sierra]

Durandal teleports you from anywhere within view of the Marathon ship

[light python]

I think you could also say that it was instant/FTL but somehow also constrained to a physical link.

[dreamy hawk]

Limiting factor to teleportation is just distance from the origin.

[light python]

It's clear teleporting to/from the colony was not within the Marathon's capabilities at the time of the Pfhor attack.

[latent python]

You can launch things into open vacuum, right?

[dreamy hawk]

Tycho sure can.

[median hemlock]

the limitations aren't exactly specified but it for sure is not unrestricted teleportation

[dreamy hawk]

Too long of a distance, I beleive. But the Marathon did have teleporters onboard.

[latent python]

Yeah it seems surface to orbit teleportation and DCON are new technologies for nuMarathon

[hallow vector]

teleportation is constantly inflicted on you in m1

[dreamy hawk]

It seems like distance (and I assume mass, too) are the significnat limiting factors.

[light python]

Durandal doesn't need a receiver with the Marathon's tech, the S'phit's help, and data from observing Pfhor tech in action.

[median hemlock]

to clarify, i mean the new ones, the old games played it a lot straighter

[eternal knoll]

they have teleportation in M1 but colony era codexes also talk pretty explicitly about not having FTL yet. so they make that distinction. is just how it is

[hallow vector]

didn't durandal give humans warp tech but only for missiles?

[light python]

We did need a receiver before that. And various "current human cutting edge" tech appears to have to put a transmitter down "receiverless" first to do a return teleport.

[dreamy hawk]

Touche. Good point.

[dreamy hawk]

In one of the timelines, not ours.

[hallow vector]

guh

[light python]

(Even OG Marathon mostly required us to access a terminal, though I think the "stand by a window" stuff is instructive, too. Bandwidth and information delay, I say.)

[dreamy hawk]

Durandal never seems to have returned to Earth like he did in the OG timeline(s).

[hallow vector]

uesc might have just kept it secret

[dreamy hawk]

God that terminal is funny. "Walk around until you think you're done, then stand by a window. If I don't teleport you, either you suck, or it's the wrong window."

[latent python]

I think that'd be hard

[light python]

This is my special interest actually

[hallow vector]

like earth governments kept the jjaro secret before

[dreamy hawk]

Maybe but I don't think so, given the ARG and other things we've seen.

[light python]

Like, Marathon-wise: who has what FTL tech and when

This is why I really want to know exactly where runner consciousnesses are.

[hallow vector]

what's the deal with the arg? i've poked around a little but haven't really found any information about it

[light python]

Because we have what appears to be low-latency conversations between Tau Ceti and Sol,

[dreamy hawk]

I want to make a terrible joke but I have a feeling automod might take offense.

[light python]

and the runners are explicitly data-connections

[latent python]

Best guess is that runner consciousnesses are from earth and on uhhh a ship in TC

[hallow vector]

one of the first codex entries you unlock says they have to be in low orbit for signal reasons

[dreamy hawk]

This is the relay the Equanimity laid out with corp help, I believe.

[light python]

That's the local backup!

[eternal knoll]

we explicitly set up FTL comms with sol, but we do so after arriving in the system

[dreamy hawk]

And if the idea that the Equanimity is on the edge of the system as someone else mentioned earlier, this checks out, IMO.

[light python]

Okay so that posits an "ansible" type of FTL where you can talk instantly between any two points that are "entangled" in a handwavey quantum way

[dreamy hawk]

"Ansible" goes to google

[light python]

But we've got things on the surface people are calling "FTL antennas"

[median hemlock]

yeah i believe it is established by this point that we have FTL comms

but that's it, for Now

[light python]

And maybe those are not themselves FTL tech, but go to an orbital relay with a singular piece of FTL hardware that everything else runs over

[median hemlock]

having FTL comms and matter transferring does make it merely a matter of time though, especially with the pfhor running around

[hallow vector]

i think quantum entanglement being ftl was disproven somewhat recently, which is kinda depressing

[light python]

So if runner consciouness is in low earth orbit, the next question is, where do runner shells come from

[hallow vector]

woyms

[dreamy hawk]

I don't think they're in Sol.

[median hemlock]

i don't think it makes any sense for shells to come from anything beyond dedicated hardware in orbit around tau ceti

[hallow vector]

but also yeah, low tau ceti 4 orbit, not low earth orbit

[eternal knoll]

the runners arrive on tau ceti less than twelve years after they’re sent there so sol has some kind of FTL now for suresies. maybe it’s not suitable for normal humans tho

[dreamy hawk]

In fact, the tutorial pretty clearly shows that they're not. We had to reestablish a link with Sol before being able to reach out to the other corps, in Sol.

[median hemlock]

as establishedb efore, matter transfers aren't an "anywhere in space" thing and the storms on the planet cause interference with the signal

yeah

[light python]

Were they physically shipped in a big container from Sol worms? Are there worms on a nameless corporate ship that "almost caught" the equanimity? I don't think we're working from a limited supply of the damn things.

[dreamy hawk]

Our consciousnesses are either stored in the balls, or in TC.

[light python]

Sorry, word "earth" slipped in

[hallow vector]

the expedition ship sent to investigate tau ceti 4 took 90 something years to get there, our consciousness was simply digitized and transmitted

[median hemlock]

your current consciousness is very explicitly stored "on site" in your shell, so it's not likew e have FTL comms for runner brains to work outright

[plucky sierra]

Runner shells arrived on "sponsored transportation" likely Traxus and Sekiguchi

[light python]

"Low Tau Ceti IV orbit"

[latent python]

Yeah there had to be a ship that came with or passed the Equanimity that CyAc and SecGen have a presence on

[plucky sierra]

presumably with Sekiguchi birth pods for shell printing

[light python]

Right but the "eject mechanism" syncs your experience to low-orbit hardware

[eternal knoll]

the runners were sent to tau ceti well after the equanimity was on its way, and we beat it there

[dreamy hawk]

Traxus, I think. Through the United Shipping lanes that are discussed in the ARG. I just don't know fully what those shipping lanes are.

[hallow vector]

interesting, do you have a source?

[light python]

It does seem like runners showed up before Equanimity, but I'm not sure before Orion

[median hemlock]

it is admittedly easier to do space travel when you don't have to worry about trivial nonsense like "not killing the entire crew"

[dreamy hawk]

https://marathon.karnemir.com/intercepts/uesc/memoranda

[eternal knoll]

it’s in the ARG - the traxus chatlogs

[hallow vector]

thanks

oh stars the arg again

[dreamy hawk]

Equanimity arrival date is SEALED UNTIL INTENDED ARRIVAL DATE: 20/4/2894

[dreamy hawk]

There's a lot there; I'm just worried a chunk of it will change/get updated through the codex, so I'm hesitant to beleive it too much.

[light python]

I think Orion and friends might be UESC advance forces, also sent/figured out in response to the Somewhere In The Heavens message, as opposed to part of the original Equanimity "restore contact" "rescue" mission.

[median hemlock]

Rampancy-centric response team. One squad-strength unit of specialized SIGINT operatives assembled from a pre-screened list of volunteers with access to 40 purpose-built 2nd generation clones (ref. Mimir Mk I-II, Odin Mk III-V, Athena α-δ, or equivalent) will be assembled and deployed to the Colony at Tau Ceti.
uh oh!

[hallow vector]

anyway we the players show up after UESC has been there for a minute at least

[eternal knoll]

meanwhile you see the traxus execs discussing the beginnings of the plan to send the runners to tau ceti about seven-ish years prior to the time of the live game. so that has to have used FTL

[latent python]

And I would be fine with things getting a little adjusted to make the timeline make sense as they get added to the codex

[hallow vector]

and anyway arriving before the 90 year mission doesn't mean ftl, especially with relativity

[dreamy hawk]

Durandal is going to send us to make friends.

[dreamy hawk]

Equanimity doesn't have FTL; it was traveling at 0.122C or something like that.

[light python]

I think the 90 years - and everything else time-wise - are from earth-subjective time and handwave relativity

[dreamy hawk]

Runners made a 12ly journey in fewer than ten, though, so absolutely FTL.

[eternal knoll]

gettin to tau ceti in less than twelve years does, tho

[latent python]

It's if you think the corp response is there already, that's the argument for FTL

[hallow vector]

depends, it can be less than 12 subjective

[light python]

This is my evidence for "limited ftl matter transfer from a ship that hasn't gotten there yet" personally

[latent python]

No it's not 7 years subjective

[eternal knoll]

yea it’s literally calendar years 7 years

[hallow vector]

fair

[latent python]

It's 7 years on a calendar timeline we have

[dreamy hawk]

I think runners and corps have 1.4x FTL if I recall my math from before.

[hallow vector]

did we arrive on a ship or were we FTL commsed out there?

[dreamy hawk]

"Corporate Sponsored Transport."

[latent python]

The consciousnesses themselves were likely FTL commsed

[dreamy hawk]

Up to your interpretation.

[dreamy hawk]

But this is my assumption.

[eternal knoll]

that we dont rly have much to go on aside from the phrase “sponsored transport” and i guess the visuals from the cinematic

[hallow vector]

i will refrain from having a strong opinion on that

[light python]

Well there's also the thing where anti-teleport countermeasures are what secures most of the Marathon from both UESC and runner investigation

[hallow vector]

i need to watch the intro cutscene again, it's so visually overwhelming

[latent python]

I do wish we could watch intro videos again in game

[light python]

If there was a ship there it could just load up a space-minivan full of cutting tools and land on the hull.

[latent python]

Hmm maybe they'll play after wipe

Wait no we know that we won't have to do faction intro missions over

[median hemlock]

that i could totally see

[hallow vector]

well there's gotta be SOME kind of ship there, otherwise where would the worms be stored?

sorry, the woims

[median hemlock]

if we had proper FTL i don't think the UESC and corporations would be acting quite the way they are

runners are useful and strategically deniable, but there's no shot we would not have at least like, an exec in orbit to oversee things

[light python]

I love the headcanon of ships racing to Tau Ceti and traxus calling our teleport-based, retrievel-window-oriented excursions "early financial assessment" or whatever because it means that Traxus is planning to show up heavy when their actual ship actually gets there.

And they do seem to talk that way.

[latent python]

I like the idea that bio people don't seem to be able to FTL yet

[median hemlock]

yeah for sure

[hallow vector]

i have read this somewhere before i think, but idr where

[eternal knoll]

there’s a lot one could theoretically do… why dont they install the anti-teleport tech at dire marsh, why dont we attack wherever the uesc are producing these bots. i’ll be pleasantly surprised if we ever get sound logistical answers for everything. we’ve already severely compromised the remoteness of the setting by establishing FTL comms but it feels like it’s in the “don’t think too hard” box a little bit

[dreamy hawk]

I think the best way I've seen it rationalized is that FTL is availible to data/limited ammounts of matter, and the more matter you have, the shorter and more frequent jumps you need to make. If you want to send people, now you're also sending habitat modules and cryo equipment and food and a shit ton of more matter that requires them to make even more jumps, which neccesitate more supplies, which in turn..

[latent python]

So all the bio humans are stuck going snail mail on the Equanimity and everyone who is willing to jump into a biomat got beamed over

[light python]

I am not sure the UESC knows how to block remote teleports or if they do, their ability to do so is compromised by CyberAcme et al

[median hemlock]

colonial interests lead to corpos using runners because we're legally deniable assets and, despite the almost assuredly insane costs associated with runners and shells, that's much cheaper to quickly get boots on the ground to figure out why the space feds are illegally blocking your salvage rights uncover the mystery of the lost colony

[dreamy hawk]

What I said but in fewer words. 😆

[median hemlock]

yep exactly, the costs scale exponentially

[latent python]

But again I hope this gets adjusted/clarified as codex entries get written

[median hemlock]

you also have to worry about keeping humans fed and not insane to avoid legal pushback, whereas runners don't quite legally qualify as people and can thus be thrown into wood chippers as you like

[latent python]

Neither fed nor sane

[dreamy hawk]

Runners are better from a public and inter corporate/agency relations prescriptive.

[light python]

Right but Orion is clearly running a biomata

[dreamy hawk]

Plus if my head canon about us having clones in the bitcoin mines is even half right, I’m not even convinced it’s a huge cost to the corps to fund us.

[light python]

Is he a digital consciousness or a man in a chair on the far side of a relay/a ship almost in system? We don't know.

[median hemlock]

while i would not suggest any organization in marathon is empathetic enough to care about lives lost, you do have to admit that it is also easier to find out more about dangerous unknowns with 3d printed people who can just come back for more if they die

[dreamy hawk]

He’s digital.

[latent python]

Orion's the one crazy enough to make the jump, a loose cannon you might say

[dreamy hawk]

He died to the compiler.

[median hemlock]

orion died to the compiler???

[dreamy hawk]

Yeah.

[light python]

Yes, but traxus developed the biomata for non-digital people to use in mines,

[median hemlock]

i have GOT to open some vaults wtf

[hallow vector]

biomata exist for more casual use, isn't vandal based on this even?

[light python]

with digital eject mechanisms for normal-bodied people

runners are definitely something post-body, but I don't think all Biomat users are

[hallow vector]

runners are just a specific kind of messed up posthuman i think

[light python]

(And again, these runners, the history of runners is complex and mostly out of our view)

[dreamy hawk]

On the Marathon but I think also on the surface? There one or two codex entries, but one is for sure on the Marathon and his whole team gets wiped out, only for him to quickly join them.

Anyone who has defeated the compiler is automatically more bad ass than Orion.

[latent python]

(Orion got better)

[dreamy hawk]

🤷

[median hemlock]

i may be conflating entries but iirc vandals are explicitly more of a runner oriented shell with a lot of kitbashing, hence the arm cannon

[light python]

The lore in question is UESC combat logs, which I have seen outside of vaults

[dreamy hawk]

There are casual use shells for the wealthy, presumably, but vandal was not one.

[hallow vector]

guess i conflated something then

[median hemlock]

i have to give bungie credit, saying "oh yeah runners were heavily involved with the oppression of martian citizens and their resistance effort. no we won't elaborate" is a VERY marathon thing to do

[light python]

(But I also use the websites a lot, I cannot possibly wait to consume more Marathon lore after a 30 year wait just because I haven't finished the endgame)

[dreamy hawk]

But shells have organs and all of the bits and bobs you’d expect on a body, so if you were a wealthy posthumanist they have great potential.

[hallow vector]

wonder how mars is doing

[dreamy hawk]

Poorly.

[median hemlock]

nw, i am curious where you got that from because the idea of 'casual' shells is interesting

[median hemlock]

fuck me i laughed out loud, you're right though

[dreamy hawk]

The only constant in Marathon is how much it sucks being a Martian.

[light python]

Hey I find it comforting that there are martian teens to get up to pranks

[dreamy hawk]

Sucks existing, period, but Martians are somehow treated as badly as BoBs. 😂

[latent python]

Marathon, Expanse, Mars always gets the shaft

[light python]

Teens doing prank resistance means it can't be that much worse than some kind of okay-ish compared to other times periods on earth

[median hemlock]

ehhh,,,,

[hallow vector]

i'm gonna be kinda slow and stupid until i get back on my meds, i made a little whoopsie because i forgot easter was a thing
point is it may have come to me in a dream

[sharp radish]

Does form before or after the Marathon ships out?

[median hemlock]

i don't know i think "there are permanent starvation issues and the people are so disenfranchised that they had to watch their fucking moon get stolen for rich people to use and also they regularly mulch martians for daring to want to live" is pretty dire

[latent python]

Way before

[hallow vector]

before

[median hemlock]

WAY before

[eternal knoll]

maybe someday we’ll be able to say it IRL too 😻

[light python]

(I mean, teen prank resistance was out of the question in, say, East Germany, as far as I know)

[median hemlock]

the marathon explicitly gave MIDA a bit of a PR bump because, again, you could look up and see them hollowing out the moon lol

[dreamy hawk]

Nawh. I’m not a historian so I can point you to examples, but people are always being subversive.

[latent python]

Though technically MIDA was already out of power by the time Marathon was being worked on

[eternal knoll]

i think mida might just be written sloppily, tbh, that teen prank resistance is their answer to mass starvation

[light python]

absolutely and I do not mean to discount all peasant resistance and I can recommend a good book about it

[dreamy hawk]

They were in power and had pulled off their coup.

They were criticized in the terminals for not doing anything with the massive UESC asset floating in their orbit.

[median hemlock]

RUNNAH, JOIN MIDA. WE'VE GOT:

• ONE CANONICAL VICTORY THAT WE ONLY HELD ONTO FOR THREE MONTHS
• WINDOW SMASHING
• CARDIO KICKS

[hallow vector]

i kinda hate MIDA in 2026 marathon, they're such awful anarchist representation

[light python]

I heard - and I have not seen the lore if someone knows how to find it I'd appreciate it - I heard that martian teens dressed up like vandals en mass after MIDA rolled 'em out

[latent python]

They were in power, had their coup, started pulling strings to buy Deimos, then were out of power and UESC took over the Marathon project

[dreamy hawk]

ONTO FOR THREE MONTHS (while brutally subjugating the civilians we swore to protect and executing at least 10% of them).

Fixed for ya.

[light python]

This is why I say things like "Mida is a psyop" and "Aracnne is the real liberation faction"

[median hemlock]

well yeah but... the cardio kicks

[dreamy hawk]

The did.

[light python]

Okay but do we believe that

[median hemlock]

so its all good

:)

[hallow vector]

arachne does seem to be pushing us to do something

[latent python]

Murder

[dreamy hawk]

Yes. Murder.

[light python]

Like, who's records say MIDA did a huge murdercrime when they were briefly in charge?

[hallow vector]

well, yes

but that's a means, the goal is something esoteric

[eternal knoll]

i dont think it’s rly intentional but the way mida uses the pronoun/slash all over the place comes off so much as a “damn crazy kids” attitude from the writers

[median hemlock]

i am CONVINCED that it's deliberate on bungie's part, "smash these windows" and "tag this wall" is such an obvious stupid way to represent anti capitalist ideologies that it's TOO on the nose

[light python]

I mean, I do not mean to become some kind of denialist here but uh, there is a lot of confirmed lying and every faction representative is introduced to you as a new kind of liar

[dreamy hawk]

This is a valid point but even the next codex entries continue to bash on them. Until I see actual evidence of accomplishments I have no reason to doubt what we know.

[hallow vector]

i'm really, really hoping so

[sharp radish]

how would you implement anarchy as a mission?

[median hemlock]

i would not be surprised to find out that MIDA is corporate/government uhhh. what's the word. when you make fake opponents who look bad on purpose

[hallow vector]

but it's hard to get my heart to believe this, triple a games have been letting me down for decades

[latent python]

Astroturfing

[dreamy hawk]

Me too. At present I dislike MIDA and think it’s a UESC false flag to flush out dissidents.

[median hemlock]

where did i say that they should do that or that you can do that

[eternal knoll]

the thing is that this game is otherwise pretty unflinching about the turbocapitalist horrors

[median hemlock]

the anticapitalist themes in this game are about as subtle as a brick to the head so i have faith

[light python]

Mutual aid, subversion of authoritarian infrastructure, wiki-leaks type counter-classification actions,

[plucky sierra]

you do that early on, to show you don't care for the UESC, but it escalates to more extreme activities

[light python]

MIDA overlaps with what would be better by a fair amount in their later stuff

[dreamy hawk]

UESC does this to a labor union in the ARG iirc.

[plucky sierra]

The Final MIDA quest is peak

hacking comms and broadcasting a Manifesto

[light python]

With a weird focus on blowing up dropships and personally getting under Orion's skin that undermines the whole thing

[sharp radish]

I was genuinely curious if you thought of a way of doing it, can't come up with one myself

[median hemlock]

appreciate the real as hell answer

[latent python]

I got to the part where _gantry is like "time to see what happens when you combine chem grenades with real bioweapons"

[light python]

_gantry fuckin' sux

[dreamy hawk]

I’m still stuck on the Outpost step. 😫

[latent python]

And it's like...okay man

[light python]

Orion is a good character though

[dreamy hawk]

I feel like this is true of everyone. Orion is canonically pro-torture.

[plucky sierra]

Like MIDA has a clear escalation in what you are doing

[median hemlock]

i don't think they're supposed to be meaningful representation of capitalist alternatives - gantry tells you point blank that they don't care about you and will just use you as fuel for their goals, which is not really something you see in most left leaning ideologies and organizations

[dreamy hawk]

Mmmk. Sure. 😂

[light python]

Did _gantry tell you that?

[median hemlock]

"we can't let the UESC have control of this lethal bioweapon, at all, in any capacity. however we can totally be trusted to use it to attack them"

[hallow vector]

i haven't done a lot of worm mom quests but if i take ONI's word for it that she's just saying whatever she thinks we want to hear, she's especially vile

[light python]

That guy smells like he hangs out in punk bars committing chemically-assisted assaults and then getting away with it under "restorative justice" frameworks run by his buddy who happens to own the bar while feminist punks slowly figure out not to host shows at that venue.

[dreamy hawk]

True. You traditionally see more infighting and purity tests. 💀

[plucky sierra]

They are blatant anarchists more so than the revolutionaries of Old MIDA which was not much better than the UESC and was probably bought out by Traxus

[median hemlock]

i'm pretty sure that's just a bald faced lie immediately, like their first mission you do is "hurt yourself for my benefit"

[median hemlock]

LMFAO holy shit

realest thing ive ever seen in this server

[sharp radish]

here is one thing, I feel like the shells looking like characters doesn't make much sense when they are mass produced?

[median hemlock]

"you need a faction that cares about your interests. this is why you need to inject yourself with unidentified necrotic tissue so we can look at what happens"

[dreamy hawk]

Standard template. Each shell is a clone of the one built before it in that series.

[light python]

Anyway when I say Orion is a good character I don't mean like, alignment-style.

[sharp radish]

wish we still had the white ones from the first trailer

[dreamy hawk]

Good. I want him to step on me.

[median hemlock]

"interesting" might get your point across better but i agree

[sharp radish]

so the template is super expensive to make and ppl just copy them?

[median hemlock]

oh.

[light python]

I mean he is well-written and relatable, hits tropes right without being too cliche, and is in an interesting position with rocks and hard places, even if he is also an imperialist monster.

It's important to remember that some of the best media lately has imperialist monsters as the relatable characters because that itself is a radical point at this late stage.

[median hemlock]

i do think it's really funny how he correctly identifies the source of the problem and is still told "i don't give a shit, fix this impossible problem while also doing nothing about the cause, we can't fuck with the corpos"

[light python]

(See Andor's "oh my god this competent imperial beurucrat has a bad mother in law and I love the way she deals with it oh my god am I the baddy?")

[dreamy hawk]

Ah sorta. Runners steal them, modify them, and in some cases it’s suggested people print their own bootleg copies, but it sounds like those don’t do as well.

[hallow vector]

bootleg woims...

[median hemlock]

gosh it is Dire out there isn't it

x-x

[hallow vector]

as a culture we like to imagine worse worlds to make ourselves feel better, but lately the worlds we're imagining have to be real bad

[median hemlock]

i've always had a fascination with scifi, especially scifi that leans darker, but yeah at this point its like

the hyper capitalist crapsack universe of marathon just seems like a natural progression

[karmic lagoon]

can anyone tell me the lore behind rook? just kinda curious.

[median hemlock]

https://tauceti.gg/codex/runners/rook/exfil-rook

thats the summary

[karmic lagoon]

ty

[latent python]

Rook is UESC hardware hacked to carry a runner

[light python]

They're sold as work frames, modified for cheap illegal run work, some hacker gave them the signal jamming thing, they can't sustain a neural link for as long, classic "the street finds their own use for things" utilization of industrial tools for private-ish purposes

[hallow vector]

no personality matrix in a rook either, so i guess it's pure runner

i said it before but i think the rook introduction trailer is so cool for this

[light python]

It has a limited one (its own voice lines, etc) but I think this is part of the more limited sync duration

I imagine the're uncomfortable to pilot

[median hemlock]

i think its really funny how rooks have this reputation as scumbag scavengers, like

[karmic lagoon]

from my quick read, theyre former uesc or industrial bots weve modified to house a neural link with us, but sice theyre not as comfy as a true shell, they risk some mental degradation so we dont use them as long, theyre like the extra extra expendable shells.

[median hemlock]

we're fucking runners, you're throwing 3d printed stones from your 3d printed glass house

[hallow vector]

i'm seeing the reddit complain about rooks teaming up to swarm the actual teams on pinwheel

[sharp radish]

that bit in the short, where Vandal gets a psychology test, where does that happen? Thought your "brain" is on a satellite somewhere

[hallow vector]

which is incredibly funny

[light python]

I ALSO WISH TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION

[median hemlock]

if you get killed by rooks teaming up then the issue is not with the rooks lmfao

[light python]

but remember when your shell inserts it's teleported, same when you exfil

[dreamy hawk]

I think there are Rook lines which essentially say this.

[hallow vector]

idk some of those guys spawn with wstrs

[median hemlock]

we don't really know but my working theory is

that's their brief physical/mental orientation before going on a run

so probably in orbit somewhere before transferring down

[light python]

I'm so close to being a horrible wastrook

[median hemlock]

no no i mean

if the rooks all managed to team up without backstabbing eachother, then that kinda rules

[sharp radish]

so we just on some bootleg satellite with a worm printer beaming oursevels down there for some scratch

[median hemlock]

ssssorta

the scratch is more of an incentive to go there and do what the people with colonial interests want

[drifting mulch]

MIDA behind the scenes is cool. some of the adherents are normal people past the tipping point. people tired of a government's lies who've rallied behind an established movement

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/truthworm-exe/manifesto?search=truthworm

||We're here because something's not right. Maybe a few things. Maybe many. We know colony leadership is keeping things from us. They built us up. Built the foundation of our entire society on open communications and trust. Then—Then the Marathon…||

[hallow vector]

i think our ship's probably pretty big

[light python]

I do think there is a worm printer on the sattelite though

And that this like "how many clones go in the hold" stuff is old technology

[latent python]

Gotta be

[median hemlock]

there's no need for the runner printing infrastructure to be as obscenely big as the marathon since it doesnt need to be a generational ship

[latent python]

Based on how many times I've died? Nona's gotta be printing out new ones

[median hemlock]

so im sure they just lobbed a ball full of worms and brain backups out there

[hallow vector]

it takes the woims 8 hours to print a shell iirc, and they're working full time

[light python]

Or on the ship? Maybe the sattelite is just emergency storage and the teleportation is on a ship that hasn't arrived, that is big and has a printer? I like that better.

[hallow vector]

so we gotta have some pretty extensive facilities

[light python]

One thing I really appreciate that has limited the bathos of this setting compared to Destiny is the lack of a social area.

[latent python]

There's also a question of...who runs the armory

[light python]

It's all very serious violence and death, no jumping off cliffs and playing volleyball

[median hemlock]

the various factions really really really seem to be interested in deliberately fostering runner on runner violence so i can't imagine a social hub making much sense thematically

[light python]

Our consciousnesses are pretty isolated from one another, I get the feeling shells are kept physically separate and maybe not inhabited a lot between runs.

[median hemlock]

i sorta figured each faction had their own manufacturing facilities near tciv

[latent python]

Unlike ARC Raiders where canonically no one actually dies and apparently they all go for beers afterwards lol

[rancid belfry]

Yeah the existence of Arachne kinda defeats the idea of the social hub huh

[hallow vector]

i could see one being necessary to keep runners stable

[median hemlock]

not even talking about arachne, but yeah they do loooove runner death

[hallow vector]

like can you imagine no third space between rest and going on death runs?

[median hemlock]

at best i can imagine a digital non space

[light python]

Yes, I think this game means to make me imagine that too

[median hemlock]

but also, yeah

i think the forever grind is part of the point

[hallow vector]

i do kinda want a little social space though

[light python]

Durandal talked to the Original Player Character a lot about how fucked up it was that he was just on one nonstop violent tear now

[median hemlock]

marathon organizations don't really think highly of things like "mental health" or "sustainability"

[light python]

"Cattle, not pets!"

[latent python]

Yeah sure, but someone is running a whole accounting and logistics system for guns and equipment in parallel to the one for shells and it's probably not good to try to think about who or how

[median hemlock]

i dont think itd be awful to get one but i do think it fits a little less gameplay wise

[light python]

The UESC and MIDA are both putting weapons out there for runners to use.

[rancid belfry]

They're probably just stealing the shit from UESC lol

[hallow vector]

the social spaces in destiny were fun

[light python]

The MIDA ones might be uh, pre-stolen, and the UESC ones are... operational incompetence?

[hallow vector]

i never used them to socialize, it just made the world feel more alive

[light python]

They were! And really inappropriate to this game.

[latent python]

But they still have to move the stuff into runners' hands before they beam down!

[median hemlock]

i don't think its hard to imagine these major factions all sinking significant resources into figuring out what is going on with the marathon

[light python]

This world feels dead and haunted.

Like it should.

[median hemlock]

we've got biomatter printing, i can't imagine it'd be that unreasonable to set up a semi automated facility that churns out wstrs or whatever

[light python]

Yeah I agree there's a manufacturing center on Unnamed Corporate Ship

[latent python]

Yeah absolutely

[hallow vector]

the wstr is so expensive for how simple the design is

[dreamy hawk]

A lot of what we loot is contemporary UESC property, too.

[light python]

Clearly you have never fired four rounds out of a double-barrel shotgun

[rancid belfry]

I mean when every gun feels 3d printed they probably have them running right next to the shell factory

[median hemlock]

the wstr being expensive may seem like a gameplay conceit but actually, of course the "barrel stuff a runner and they die" gun would be worth a lot

:p

[light python]

The predecessor to which had a loading mechanism described as too complicated for mortal minds

[hallow vector]

the forbidden long shell

[dreamy hawk]

And the Equanimity has tons of foundary space aboard. So once it arribes there's going to be a ton of production capacity.

[latent python]

MIPS shells must be some kind of space magic

[median hemlock]

i REALLY desperately want a red tier pistol like the cyborg had because i want to see how modern day artists try to make that thing make sense

[light python]

It's slop

The original marathon pistols were slop military industry

[hallow vector]

what is MIPS even short for?

[rancid belfry]

They're all caseless ammo but they still eject cases because reasons

[light python]

made for aesthetic purposes to appeal to shitty REMFs

[hallow vector]

and what the hell is going on with the bullet? it's clearly not caseless since there's shell ejection

[latent python]

Caseless ammo that loads into both longshots and WSTRs

[median hemlock]

i was going to make a joke about "bungie deciding cool shit is more important than designs that make sense? say it aint so" but i dont wanna summon that guy from last month who argued that it makes no sense to see the marathon in orbit from the ground

[light python]

In Marathon we only sometimes disambiguate our acrostics

[hallow vector]

clearly the bullet is so bulky because it contains a tiny 3d printer that uses itself as feedstock, the gun instructs the bullet on what sort of round it should turn into

[light python]

MIDA doesn't stand for any specified thing either

[latent python]

MIDA definitely stands for something don't worry about it

[median hemlock]

deus ex invisible war is that you

[hallow vector]

MIDA stands for a lot of things

[hallow vector]

GUH

[eternal knoll]

it does drive me crazy that it appears to be in orbit around a whole other planet in the skybox lol

but i acknowledge this doesnt matter

[light python]

If MIDA stands for everything, what will it fall for?

[hallow vector]

i was exposed to invisible war recently through a friend streaming it, that game is so awful on every level

[median hemlock]

yeah don't get me wrong, you should Not be able to see celestial bodies with that level of detail from the ground

but like, it's cool and looks cool, so who cares, etc

[hallow vector]

Mars Is Damnably Arid

[median hemlock]

i actually have some positive things to say about it but, it sure is a game that was shaped by a lot of decisions that did not help it

[light python]

Shax does not know and believes that it is funny when younger guardians believe the things he says

[hallow vector]

i think the omar were cool, that's really the only thing sticking out in my memory though

[latent python]

Still waiting for the SPNKR though

[median hemlock]

as fucking awful as "every ending from the last game is canon, all at once" is, i cannot lie, it made invisible war have a REALLY interesting setting

[light python]

(I personally think it was original Martian Independence Direct Action or something democracy something, I bet they are like "Marathon Incident Demands Action" or something now, like Move On dot Org is no longer about not talking about monica lewinisky)

[dreamy hawk]

Many Ideas Don't Agree

[median hemlock]

plus JC being machine jesus does result in some real fun conversational lines

[earnest hatch]

Martian Internal Defence Alliace

[hallow vector]

defene

[rancid belfry]

Deafens

[light python]

MIDA Isn't Definitely an Acronym

(They would pull some GNU shit)

[median hemlock]

(the) Marathon Is Definitely an Abattoir

[hallow vector]

Mars Is Dusty A**

[median hemlock]

mida would have liberated mars but they were too busy arguing over the specific licensing of a fork of their Save Mars software

[hallow vector]

i'm still scared of the automod

[light python]

MIDA believes that the Traxus IV incident could have been prevented by reviving copyleft licenses and eliminating DRM

[eternal knoll]

mida does knitting circles and gardening co-ops

[light python]

They manifestly do not

that would go hard

[median hemlock]

mida would be way cooler if they did that yeah lmao

when gantry says the words "mutual aid" out loud then maybe i will give a shit about what he has to say

[latent python]

They definitely shouldn't do any gardening co-ops on TCIV

Maybe wait on that one

[light python]

The people attracted to MIDA by the kind of rhetoric they deployed in the ARG experience a weird glass ceiling when trying to use that kind of community-grounded expression of structural freedom to build power. Somehow they're never connected to the "best of us" who "gave up their bodies" etc

[hallow vector]

you can do gardening coops next to the anomaly, your crops will grow so fast

[median hemlock]

||i'm sure the inevitable fungal zombies would disagree with that||

:)

[eternal knoll]

i dunno, knitting circle where everyone wistfully but emptily discusses firebombing a walmart feels accurate both to my sense of mida and to my experience of irl lefty circles

[median hemlock]

yeah that's what i mean, mida are more interested in the firebombing a walmart than the building community part ;p

[light python]

MIDA does actually firebomb things.

And in Minneapolis, well, let's just say that precinct hasn't reopened.

[sharp radish]

I'm confused why multiple people think Anarchy is a leftist movement?

[hallow vector]

cause it is? ancaps aren't anarchists

[light python]

Because horseshoe theory and "the right" has currently taken such a hard authoritarian turn in most people's daily experience window

[median hemlock]

we very much cannot get too into the nitty gritty of that in here but tl;dr

if you think "anarchy" is "no rules no government no NOTHING fuck everybody" that isn't what anarchy is

[light python]

And the problem of corporate power has become so materially manifest that the ancaps don't appeal to teenagers anymore

[hallow vector]

i mean, strictly speaking it's not left, but you get what i mean

[eternal knoll]

i sense more petty vandalism
but i feel u. im takin the silly representation of what they do too literally, for effect

[hallow vector]

and most anarchists i know are ancoms anyway and they're DEFINITELY left

[median hemlock]

eh, like I said, can't get too into it here but, anarchists are on my side and corporations/lobbyists aren't etc etc

[hallow vector]

yeah, yeah, don't wanna get timed out again

[median hemlock]

mods have been respectful about the "no politics" stuff i would say

[hallow vector]

"no politics" rules are such a pain when the setting is so politics

[median hemlock]

right?

its kinda impossible to talk about this game to any meaningful degree without a little politics lol

[light python]

What they mean is, no policies and no politicians, right?

[dreamy hawk]

The left/right axis as we’re discussing is pretty America-specific, it is worth noting, but that’s a digression

[light python]

It can seem that way but global conversations have left me believing this is less the case than it once was

and to the extent that someone is discussing USA politics, it makes sense that they'd argue anarchism isn't a left thing

[median hemlock]

i would say that statement depends a lot on what you mean by "left" specifically

[dreamy hawk]

Which is the other half of it.

[median hemlock]

the "left" i am talking about has essentially zero meaningful political representation down there, in mainstream politics anyway

[light python]

outed yourself as canadian

[median hemlock]

i dont hide it lol

its 2026, what are americans gonna do to be mean to me? lmfao

[light python]

It is the real left here in Minneapolis running off the bodysnatchers, etc

[median hemlock]

also going back a second

all good scifi videogames involve someone talking about using inexplicable unnatural phenomena to grow crops real good and fast

• death stranding
• marathon

we have two on the list so far

[hallow vector]

those are the two good scifi videogames, yes

[median hemlock]

yep and nobody ever made any others EVER

[hallow vector]

WAIT

[light python]

Joke entry: The Martian

[hallow vector]

project silverfish

[light python]

Maybe: The Expanse?

[median hemlock]

oh is that the furry tarkov

cool

[dreamy hawk]

Forget SciFi, return to Atomic Gardening.

[hallow vector]

yeah the furry tarkov, it's cool

[light python]

Doom 2016 could have been a real good sci fi if it had just focused a little more on how hell energy was working for CROPS on MARS

[median hemlock]

lmfao

[light python]

Maybe they would have got to that if the Slayer didn't punch every terminal where someone tries to explain something

[hallow vector]

first person, on mars, doom movespeed, doom controls, watering can instead of a gun

[median hemlock]

i am one of the 5 people who loved devouring the codex logs and shit in 2016/eternal

[hallow vector]

doing glory kills on weeds

[light python]

Surely there's more than 5 of us

[median hemlock]

so when you say "2016 would have been better if it had more story" i have to stop myself from going PREACH

[light python]

I really liked the slayer punching the quest-giving at the beginning but the level design and environmental storytelling also did nothing about agriculture or caloric needs

[austere elk]

You eat the demons

This is known

[light python]

Whereas marathon has a whole company exclusively focused on how people eat and an entire AI just for water management.

[hallow vector]

i'm sure the water management AI feels so normal

[median hemlock]

i do kinda love nucal

its really interesting how they're expressly stated to be kinda unfamiliar with all this direct corporate warfare shit

[robust vale]

it is interesting, yeah

[median hemlock]

probably don't need to engage in too many extralegal deniable operations when your captive market is the entire human race

[stiff hearth]

I want one of those giant puffy nucal coats from the trailer

[robust vale]

probably because unlike traxus they haven't needed to\

traxus does mines and shipping and manufacturing but that's stuff the UESC can do, stuff you can have people unionize in

[hallow vector]

the wearable pool toys!

yes absolutely 100% agreed

[robust vale]

Nucal showed up and said "hey we own agriculture now"

plus like

robot farmers don't unionize

[stiff hearth]

they were human farmers in the colony

beyond that it’s not just the food

[hallow vector]

anyway returning to mars, the terrible conditions was like 400 years ago right? it might have gotten better since then

[robust vale]

well yeah they do ship the equipment and everything

[stiff hearth]

NuCal basically owns everything. look at all the cars and building and tell me what company branding you see

[robust vale]

I think my point was they ultimately have less to actually pick fights about than traxus, due to their prevalence

[dreamy hawk]

Nawh. Guarantee its still terrible. lol

[median hemlock]

the infrastructure that supplies mars is pretty much made to be insufficient

[hallow vector]

i'm thinking maybe nucal might have at least stopped the starvation cycle

[robust vale]

its odd that we don't actually see much of what traxus did for the colony but I guess they managed the ship

[median hemlock]

it takes Decades to retrofit a single ship and also you cannot use the drydock for anything else during that time

[robust vale]

and doing the ship itself was contribution enough

[dreamy hawk]

You want more CRISTs? Give us your moon, we're sending it to Tau Ceti!

[stiff hearth]

traxus iirc funded it all

[median hemlock]

literally lmfao

[stiff hearth]

including funding the UESC that fight us

so yeah

[hallow vector]

i was actually pretty surprised to see the martian logistics were so realistic in the first marathon

[dreamy hawk]

iirc it is canon that the UESC didn't even, once, consider using Deimos as a CRIST.

[hallow vector]

like yeah it would absolutely suck the moon out of the sky to try to ship anything to and from mars

[median hemlock]

its honestly impressive how the marathon emits a "make bad decisions" field

[robust vale]

it's more of an oppression field

specifically a UESC oppression field

[median hemlock]

mida didn't touch the thing, the uesc did not consider doing anything with it beyond resource extraction of a distant system

[dreamy hawk]

Admitedly, as far as we know. Those cyborgs showed up from somewhere.

[austere elk]

I have to imagine it's the human race's biggest documented case of sunk cost fallacy

[robust vale]

I mean, MIDA was on the marathon

[dreamy hawk]

Those are the CRISTs. But Marathon wasn't much better.

[median hemlock]

well, okay, yeah, durandal also teases you about centuries old arms caches on this colony ship

[hallow vector]

idk what they were even expecting to extract from tau ceti when it took the ship like 300 years to get there

[austere elk]

The hell is a CRIST

[robust vale]

they just didn't blow it up cause they wanted to make new cascadia independent

[median hemlock]

they didn't do anything openly showy with the marathon like say "uesc back the fuck off or we'll use this 25km long slab as a weapon platform" that kinda thing

[robust vale]

eventually, profit for corporations, probably pending ftl

[dreamy hawk]

Big space tug made out of bigger space rocks used to ferry resources to Mars from Earth.

[hallow vector]

giant hollowed out asteroid used to transport stuff around the solar system

[austere elk]

I do enjoy mobile space rocks

[dreamy hawk]

https://marathongame.fandom.com/wiki/CRIST_Sol_orbiters

[hallow vector]

mars was totally dependent on them

[austere elk]

But no I say that with the marathon because what the hell are they gonna do

[median hemlock]

they weren't specifically made of celestial bodies i don't think

[austere elk]

Not go to Tau Ceti?

And when they get there, sure as hell ain't gonna leave

[robust vale]

it's not like the rest of the solar system is usable

okay wait pause WHAT is this fandom paghe

[median hemlock]

the point is that the marathon was an expensive and obscenely disrepectful project to undergo when you're literally building it over the heads of your last post earth colony who are all starving to death and being lit on fire for protesting

[austere elk]

That makes the selling of the Deimos more impactful

[robust vale]

the technical specs of the Marathon's article is ENTIRELY unreadable

I can't post images here but it's actually unreadable cause the font color is the background color

[median hemlock]

https://getindie.wiki/ for those of you still looking at fandom wikis

[hallow vector]

fandom is a kind of poison to the soul

[dreamy hawk]

You are correct.

[median hemlock]

even if a fandom wiki doesn't have an alternative wiki, this thing puts the contents of fandom articles on a wiki platform that isnt awful

[robust vale]

there's a better wiki hang on

[plucky sierra]

Have you tried codex.cyberacme.systems?

[dreamy hawk]

I will check this out. Thank you!

[robust vale]

https://www.marathonwiki.com/Lore:CRIST

[plucky sierra]

I hear it’s really good

[median hemlock]

im glad people are fighting back but there was a real fucking dire stretch of time where you had to mess with fandom

[robust vale]

this one works pretty solidly

[dreamy hawk]

This is the best resource.

[robust vale]

I do love the codex site but this was about some stuff not directly in the game

[median hemlock]

mediawiki

oh thank god. thank you for this

[robust vale]

yeah I found it ages ago but there wasn't a better wiki out there

[median hemlock]

No CRISTs were manufactured after 2310.
i think this is my favorite mars lore. they just stopped even fucking trying outright

[robust vale]

"we GOTTA try something else this actually sucks"

[dreamy hawk]

"Well, sucks to be you. Figure it out, I guess. Anyways, bye!"

[austere elk]

They're not trying something else

They stopped trying

[plucky sierra]

People are working on marathonwiki, a team currently is working to add pages and make it better

Was dead for a while

[median hemlock]

no yeah they didn't stop making crists because theyre imperfect

[robust vale]

can't believe MIDA didn't just go and steal the marathon smh my head

[median hemlock]

they just stopped giving a shit about helping martian citizens

[austere elk]

'got your moon thanks lmao'

[dreamy hawk]

You and a lot of others.

[plucky sierra]

They stopped making them because of the higher maintenance costs

[dreamy hawk]

This is the in-universe answer, though. They were too messy, as much as I like joking about the UESC messing with Mars.

[median hemlock]

they stopped making them because they're unwieldy expensive space bricks that are prone to failure

they replaced them with famine

[plucky sierra]

The maintenance costs is also why the martians started having a famine

[robust vale]

yknow, I'm still not even sure why they colonized mars

mining??

[dreamy hawk]

Overpopulation.

[plucky sierra]

Overpop probably

[hallow vector]

could mars be profitable in the future? probably. is it profitable this quarter? no. cancel mars.

[median hemlock]

i believe humanity in marathon is CRAZY high population wise

nucal mentions feeding 24 billion people

[robust vale]

the true mark of human development in marathon is that corporations were willing to wait a few hundred years for their investment in TCIV to become profitable /s

[light python]

The new MIDA people talk about how comfort has ruined MIDA

[robust vale]

does anybody have a link to the ARG file where mars was confirmed independent btw?

the wiki cites it but the link is dead

[hallow vector]

if the new MIDA isn't a plant, then it's 100% run by rich kids

[median hemlock]

i personally interpreted that as "they got mars stable enough for the peasants to stop revolting every 5 days" as opposed to mars being chill and comfortable now

[austere elk]

Only 1 in 10 need to be executed instead of 1 in 5

Yippie!

[rancid belfry]

Do you think the factions have favorite shells

[austere elk]

Probably

[robust vale]

nvm found it

[hallow vector]

MIDA was involved in the creation of vandal, outside of that assassin kinda sounds like an arachne cultist

[robust vale]

tbf "independence" doesn't mean much when I presume they'

[median hemlock]

||probably because they already murdered half the population by this point||

[robust vale]

re still dependent on earth

I'm sure it's more economic than "we shoot protestors in the street"

MIDA really does give big IRA vibes

[median hemlock]

nah shooting protestors is a centuries old martian tradition in marathon

[austere elk]

Progress is progress

[robust vale]

they're obviously meant to be analogous to many revolutions but specifically the IRA feels relevant

[austere elk]

Come out ye blue tin cans come out and fight me like a man

[rancid belfry]

Does MIDA or CyAc hack the Rook shells?

[hallow vector]

in marathon :)

[robust vale]

was more referring to how despite independence it was seen as not enough and they're still going into the fight but I do like the drinking song

[median hemlock]

i do think mida are, to some degree, controlled opposition, but i also think it has to be at least partially genuine

[robust vale]

the UESC has moles in MIDA

but they can't control them

[median hemlock]

its kinda hard to not incite open resistance when your officers make a habit of burning people to death for the crime of wanting food

[hallow vector]

oh i didn't read the martian part, i am too sleepy

[austere elk]

Theres MIDA in UESC, there's UESC in MIDA

[robust vale]

I think it's a game of everyone has moles in everyone else, MIDA just managed to get enough power and people to actually stand as itself and not just controlled opposition

[median hemlock]

all i have to say about that is: scifi as a medium is often used to extrapolate a potential future based on the world we know and reside in currently

[robust vale]

if they were controlled opposition I don't think they'd have made it on the marathon

[light python]

The malthusian stuff has not aged well

It was shitty then and it's shitty now but it was College Student Standard Truth at the time Marathon was produced by Standard College Students so

Martian food logistics "felt realistic" in that they were addressed at all

[median hemlock]

know the difference meme where the "aww you're sweet" panel is marathon treating the big crunch as the most obvious explanation for the end of the universe and "hello, HR???" is that

[robust vale]

thoth-durandal vs idurandal is that meme too

[median hemlock]

nah i love that freak no matter what form he takes

[light python]

"what if teenage angst, the life stage I have the most personal experience with and have just grown beyond personally, was a critical stage in the cognitive development of transcendent intelligence"

yes amazing shoot it straight into my veins

[hallow vector]

love that one post, durandal when he's doing good vs durandal when things are bad

[median hemlock]

YES i was obsessed with that for days

[austere elk]

Durandal doing his duranbest

(millions have perished)

[robust vale]

durandal gets way funnier as a character if you imagine his voice as an angry teenager

[light python]

Angry teenagers wish they could be voiced by Ben Starr, in their minds they are

[robust vale]

like the 16 year old in your lobby whose voice still cracks now and then

[median hemlock]

"they're going to measure [it] in lightyears, little man." you could tell me this was in a hidden terminal in marathon 2 and i would believe you implicitly

[light python]

Okay my crew came online time to go do violence that seems meaningful and tied back to lessons I was taught as a child only I can't quite remember, can I, what those lessons really meant?

[hallow vector]

lmfao