📚marathon-lore-discussion

[dreamy hawk]

`UESC Equanimity T-SR 151
(Kingfisher-class Salvage and Rescue craft)

Commanding Officer: Captain Ningal T. Enki
Ship AI: Virgil v21.0165 [Nrw]

LOA: 160.2 m (525.6 ft)
LBP: 140.4 m (260.6 ft)
Beam: 36 m (118.2 ft)
Height: 39.3 m (129 ft)
Displacement, Full Load: 41,528 mt (40,872 LT) Speed, sustained: 0.122c
Endurance: 150 years`

[pastel ruin]

I like how if you look up at the moon on Outpost you can see the Marathon 🔥

[dreamy hawk]

12/0.122 =98.361

Also wild, my spellcheck just autocompleted the math.

curls up, screaming “fuuuuture”

[snow nacelle]

Is that where the Admiral that chewed out Orion is, or is he on Earth?

[craggy finch]

not clear at the moment from what I know

but likely Earth, he doesn't talk like someone on the way

oh yeah what Rollin posted shows the CO is a Captain

so Sulera is definitely on Earth

[snow nacelle]

So, basically everyone in Tau Ceti teleported/FTL traveled from Earth, and either due to limitations of tech or choice- every new arrival is either a shell or hardware (no flesh and blood humans)

[craggy finch]

I think all maps have the Marathon in the sky (I know Dire Marsh for sure)

[digital plaza]

You can see it from all three maps i think

[dreamy hawk]

I’m pretty sure Sulera and the rest of brass are on earth. They don’t want the exposure; they know what happened to the Marathon in part at least.

[tawny pagoda]

Base level question but wtf is Sol. Our solar system?

[snow nacelle]

Yes

[dreamy hawk]

Yep.

[craggy finch]

yeah it seems Orion and his crew are all robots/biomata to accomodate FTL

but there are officers who sound human

so do some Shells though

[dreamy hawk]

Rizzo or whomever is my one hang up there.

But people also don’t make sense for being in system if the Equanimity hasn’t arrived.

[snow nacelle]

Yean the Admiral mentions "unlimited re-ups."

I am curious if that means we may actually get to fight him as, like us, he can die and come back immediately.

[craggy finch]

Orion definitely

he's died in a few logs

and _gantry outright says he'll get a new shell

Orion boss fight would be a fun raid event

[eternal shell]

one of which is from shock at finding out his emotional support window had been smashed by a mida contractor (source: i made it up)

[dreamy hawk]

I imagine we’ll eventually see UESC runners, if not Orion himself.

[craggy finch]

What was the final crew line up again? There were hang ups about robots and cyborgs being deployed for PR reasons

[craggy finch]

that's why his head exploded

[sage lark]

wouldnt be much stronger than a warden I believe unless he gets a power up, remember a single compiler wiped 2 squads of ARS and 4 biomata including Orion singlehandedly

[craggy finch]

That's the boss compiler from Cryo though

[dreamy hawk]

Manifest Overview [1/34] Permanent accommodations for 150 persons plus crew Additional mission-specific complement: § 24 SIGINT operatives § 32 HUMINT operatives § 48 FLDENG operatives § 6 SPECOP operatives Mission-specific gear: § 1x PAsw_35m THF<1.0~0.1>CNPANT w/HISEC INTMOD TrDEMHd/100 mt § 16x Moro SAT/TeleGEAR w/14x KoBIN fusionPS/21,190kg § 14x MAMS/1,274kg -<Mobile Antenna Mast Systems> § 240x BHN SecDrones/3,120kg § Arsenal and Arsenal Support Equipment/92,188kg § Personal Load Bearing Gear/Armored/6,968kg § 170x FBr9 RCB PPG/408kh § 22kx ZGDS AVP PPG/5100kh § 192x Bio/A-Type (SekGen)/16,111kg [see att] § 76x Bio/B-Type (SekGen)/6,378kg [see att] § 269x BioMNGT (SekGen) w/6x B2tF/Gen/Fu[portable]/12,105kg § 12,000x SolarP lanterns/2,194kg § 35x AEVs (15x AMBL, 10x PERCRR, 10x CGO TK)/239,005kg [see att] § Relief Items (blankets, clothing, diapers, disposable tableware, etc.)/49,890kg [see att] § Emergency Survival Equipment/72,570kg [see att] § Agricultural Relief Materials/45,350kg [see att] § Emergency Food Stocks/90,710kg [see att] § 4x F-A RVap BRS MCRD-E/38,102kg [see att] § Medical Supplies/75,700kg [see att] § 300x TacSec MobCam and Support/84kg [see att] § 12x SR GW/N COMRELSAT/2722kg [see att]

[sage lark]

yes

[dreamy hawk]

I would not consider the manifest to be gospel however.

[digital plaza]

Im kinda sleepy right now so i might make this up, but i think 0109 guy that first encountered the compiler was also sent in med/iso, until he was proven mentally stable for his next deployment (he skipped one operation and was with rest of the team when they tried to contain the compiler)

[dreamy hawk]

Things get smuggled aboard ships all the time in Marathon.

[sage lark]

if 3 biomata can kill him, and squads of UESC cant that speaks more about them than us

[dreamy hawk]

That could make sense, but then I’m curious about their backups they’re supposed to have.

If he’s psychologically not OK, why not reset him?

[craggy finch]

If Orion is a souped up Warden he would have swarms of bots charging in while he's doing shit like making clones, going invisible and making holograms

[sage lark]

like reset a person?

[digital plaza]

Idk, maybe it dosent work like that?

Can they even do that?

[sage lark]

idk all im saying it took 3 of us to beat a compiler and they couldnt do it with 4 UESC shells and a bunch of ARS

[pastel ruin]

I hope we can fight or encounter all of the faction heads ingame at some point. Charter boss fight would be a movie

[craggy finch]

a lot of it seems to be the psychological effect that the compiler has on them, a log from before he gets killed mentions one UESC soldier having a breakdown while Orion is always affected by it invading his mind

the Runners aren't affected the same way

[dreamy hawk]

CyAc mentions keeping backups of us. Why not? Erase the primary file and pull up the backup.

[craggy finch]

if it's not solely for gameplay reasons it may be from Durandal's influence

[sage lark]

idk it works that way why wouldnt we just get deleted instead of transferring back

[digital plaza]

Devs making UESC dirty if im being honest... all they do is lose right now

[dreamy hawk]

Maybe, but considering the selling of consciousnesses is something that happens, I think they’re pretty malleable.

[digital plaza]

Hope to see them win sometime

Because other than bots crushing us in gameplay UESC looks kinda weak from lore standpoint

[sage lark]

I mean they were wiping teams in server slam and on release

still are

[pastel ruin]

They won in the cinematic teaser when they jumped destroyer like that 😞

[sage lark]

lol

[craggy finch]

and Vandal

[sage lark]

oh you mean lore wise

yeah

[craggy finch]

those were two recruits too

[sage lark]

I mean its a limited detachment

[dreamy hawk]

“Continuation of consciousness.” Prevent gaps in your memory. Whatever. But just because it’s not preferred doesn’t mean they couldn’t do it. And if their man has gone raving mad, why not revert to a premad backup, unless it doesn’t exist?

[craggy finch]

in-story UESC are actually massacring Runners left and right, an officer complains that they don't care and just keep coming back

[pastel ruin]

I dont get why they just did destroyer like that, should have at least had them all using their abilities before he went down to a ghost commander

[dreamy hawk]

But if CyAc can control + c, why not control +x?

[craggy finch]

not enough time to focus on him narratively and you'd probably die from that number of recruits swarming you while standing your ground solo in-game

he gets a cool scene against what looks like a Scorch Warden in his character trailer though

[pastel ruin]

Assassin could have smoked, recon could have droned and big dog could have popped search and destroy and wiped that whole hallway - Destr was definitely the fill and sin and recon were duo queue lmao

[craggy finch]

first minute of the run, didn't even get cool down yet

[tranquil basin]

Yeah I’m guessing it’s more of a memory backup rather than your actual consciousness. Otherwise they wouldn’t really worry much about a forced recall

[dreamy hawk]

Forced recall is only an issue because your body falls apart; neural eject still works there, too.

[digital plaza]

Yeah but still would love to read a log where Orion is like YEAH I JUST SHITTED ON ENTIRE SQUAD OF RUNNERS SINGLEHANDED NO BIGGIE

UESC Tactical Records logs are dope tho

[pastel ruin]

Orion would just hack our shit and trap us in a gas room

[craggy finch]

offscreening Runners would be kind of lame because they just die to UESC grunts in story anyway

[tranquil basin]

Yeah but if they had an actual full consciousness backup, then there’d be no real reason to force recall, because then they’d just pump out a new shell and use your backup

[craggy finch]

like there's even a shot of a UESC bot finishing Triage off in the music video cinematic

If the Pfhor come maybe Orion can have his moment

Security Officer is a beast but the Pfhor still go down to bullets

[eternal shell]

orion blends a squad of pfhor fighters, going "yeeeehaw"

[dreamy hawk]

[2] from the RUNNER's targeted ZONE of interest. Essentially, when a RUNNER's SHELL is met with either catastrophic systems failure or sudden data or signal corruption, the RUNNER's mind is ejected into a secure liminal buffer before the SHELL's neural housing is fully compromised. Most secure buffers run on one of CYAC's looping data systems to record and catalog a backup of the RUNNER's consciousness as an added failsafe against total neural erasure. This gives CYAC ownership over, at least, a portion of a RUNNER's consciousness, if not the whole thing.[3] Neural ejection takes no more than an instant, though the perceived time to a given RUNNER varies. Typically, there are few immediate issues with eject/catch instances, as long as the RUNNER has up-to-date, licensed equipment operating their neural/SHELL interface.

Runners have their entire consciousness on CyAc ice.

You could fail to eject and they’d be able to launch you as if it never happened.

[craggy finch]

Pfhor fighters being PvE enemies is a dream, some UESC ranks seem to follow the basic patterns of the OG enemies as well

Grenadiers remind me of Troopers

especially their hitscan shit when they're not throwing grenades

[digital plaza]

Orion gotta have his moment tho, he's telling us how he's gonna crush us and shit and then only two times that he engaged in something he gets his head blown up twice...

To be fair its the compiler but still, not the best track record so far

[craggy finch]

I think he really only gets personally involved if its the alien stuff

like going down to collect the transport with the S'pht thing and going through the Marathon itself

for Runners he'll just throw bots at them because both parties are ridiculously expendable

[digital plaza]

Yeah pretty much

[tranquil basin]

Gotcha

[craggy finch]

the officer in one of the logs was also sent to cover for Orion so he could deal with alien stuff but she kept getting hounded by Runners

[sage lark]

I believe its the Ghost Commander we fight in one of the quests

[digital plaza]

I loved his description of engagement with the compiler, like you just imagining them getting absolutely nuked and running for their... shells... and still losing in the end

[craggy finch]

[TKEL]: The unit's struggling.
[ORION]: You're using some of our most advanced tech.
[TKEL]: Well, we're still iterating. These things weren't built with emergent Runner behaviors in mind. Runners try anything, no regard for whether it'll get them killed, because they just come back.
[TKEL]: Going to lose this one.
[ORION]: Just hold them off until I can get to the old crash site. I need them out of my way.
[TKEL]: Doing my best, Cap.
[ORION]: Your orders are clear. Hold them off. I don't care how.
[interference]
[GANT]: Resist. Disrupt. Destroy. Resist. Disrupt. Destroy.
[TKEL]: Damn it!
[GANT]: Resist. Disrupt. Destroy.

[digital plaza]

Best logs in all of cryo imo

[sage lark]

personally I like the unknown reveries and encrypted communications

and AI subroutines

explains a lot about Durandal

[digital plaza]

Yeah they pretty cool too, but a bit pompous for me, down to earth logs of UESC operations just stole my heart

[dreamy hawk]

Strauss’ journal is best, only because of the second audio log.

[drifting garnet]

Orion has many things, but what he does not have is Cayde-6’s swagger, lmao

[eternal shell]

no, which is also why orion is Very Drunk

(he's about to be demoted to pfhor blender, which comes with the same pay, less paper work and a large drinks cabinet)

[echo sundial]

playing 1994 marathon and bungie has fr made the same game since the 90's

incredible shit ngl its a great formula

[dreamy hawk]

😂

I’m not laughing because you’re wrong, btw.

[echo sundial]

3rd level you pick up the plasma pistol

can't make this shit up lmfao

[lunar cove]

Bungie when the function got mysteriously absent precursor civilizations, outmatched human military forces, multi-species enemy alien coalitions using precursor tech, an even greater ancient evil waiting to be unleashed, rampant AI named after a sword, supersoldier protagonists, and 90% of the lore developed through walls of text outside the actual missions

[echo sundial]

unfortunately they ended the dual wielding streak

I thought that shit was cool af

[lunar cove]

The paddle in Gnop! is named Excalibur and is going rampant

[eternal shell]

dual wstrs WHEN BUNGIE

[echo sundial]

Bro destroyer dashing into a fight with dual wstrs would excite my brain in the same way that porn does

[dreamy hawk]

bonk

[echo sundial]

horrible on the receiving end but dont tell me that shit wouldn't be sick af

[lunar cove]

343 ran it back by having the Infinity's AI named after the guy who owned Durandal

Instead of the sword

[echo sundial]

old marathon lets me dual weild the pistols man let me akimbo the magnum IM BEGGING

[echo sundial]

lmao

[lunar cove]

Also Halo 2 literally does the thing with the s'pht joining you to fight the Pfhor

[twin trout]

so y'know how when the uesc suck you while your downed

and their tentacles glow red

do you think they're doing the same thing the lockdowns do

since they're both red glowies :3

[eternal shell]

probably downloading data from you

[twin trout]

hnnmnmn that could be the case too

[eternal shell]

there's a contract in dire marsh where orion instructs the bots to download as much info from you as possible before "synthworm degradation"

[twin trout]

I seeee

ty :3

[hoary snow]

Man why is it when I bring a decent load out into group I always die and my team stinks, but when I play with sponsored kits my team is awesome.

[inland crypt]

Its psychological, you are more critical when you have more to lose

[echo sundial]

The pfhor and the covenant are like the same thing

Not 1:1 but in terms of like a general idea

Yes

[hoary snow]

But it not like I'm carrying 5 k loadoua maybe more like 2k. It even more frustrating due to the fact. That I still havent unlocked shields yet , all I need is one more thing majiggy ( biostripping)

I mean I know I suck but holy Beetlejuice batman come on lol

[inland crypt]

Your 2k is like an equivalent to someone's 5k, its a curve.

[echo sundial]

If you finish the NuCal quests you get a lot of blue and purple shields and also they drop a lot from the secure crates and other players

You're just not far enough into the game yet to access endgame stuff just keep playing you'll get there

[old ibex]

Think about it like gambling, if you are putting nothing in the machine and walking away with a couple hundred dollars it's a lot better than putting in 5k and getting out 5k at best

You are also going to play more conservatively without a shield 🤷‍♂️

[hoary snow]

What nucal quest?

[echo sundial]

The priority contracts from NuCaloric, all of them.

[lunar cove]

The main questline and level up rewards

[echo sundial]

Correct

[hoary snow]

Ohhh how long is the quest line?

[lunar cove]

I saved like 12 level ups because of vault size limitations

And cashed them all in at once

[echo sundial]

It's the same length as all the others so about 20 hours or so to completion

[lunar cove]

Got like 12 green and 8 blues at level 18

[hoary snow]

Oh dear alright lmfao

[lunar cove]

Through those and quests

[hoary snow]

I been focused. On the killing hostile quest trying to level up right now

[dreamy hawk]

P’fhor have a pathetically boring religion while Covenant is all religion.

[echo sundial]

You don't have too, and probably can't, do them all at once due to level caps you have to grind through. You don't need to go that far though it's just good to do those quests because the rewards are good.

[dreamy hawk]

I only play with sponsor kits unless I’m doing something that specifically warrants a good loadout. I find this just works best tbh.

[timber loom]

I had 1 purple shield in 80 hours, but now I have 6 since I completed paradigm shift

[dreamy hawk]

Having a good kit is overrated imo. They help but you can do a lot with just a knife if you’re careful.

But also like everyone said, quests. Tons of my good stuff comes from quests. It rains after a while.

[timber loom]

Good kits are for cryo, I just run sponsored for 2.5k for usual maps, e.g.

If you extract, just toss in new heals and ammo and continue. If you not, you lose just 2.5k and not a credit more

[dreamy hawk]

I play triage so I don’t even worry about consumables. So many depleted packs laying around.

[eternal knoll]

help guys my triage says he doesnt have to bring consumables because theyve got leftovers on tau ceti

(only kiddin)

[proven copper]

We got panacea at home! Panacea at home:

[dreamy hawk]

I got a panacea if you’re good and deserve it.

[serene garnet]

do the shells have to piss n shit

[dreamy hawk]

It’s a 5.99/mo add on.

3.99/mo for students and seniors.

[scenic iron]

I need to start making money

I'm poor 😭

[dry needle]

Is it explained what the runners are extracting to? How they arrived?

Is there another unseen starship that is supporting the runners activities?

[molten hearth]

hi chat nobody knows what MIPS stands for right

juliaaaa we need you

[warm scarab]

I thought it was some sort of satellite hack where we're being beamed at FTL speeds

[livid lion]

Yes

[dry needle]

If thats true, are all the new runner bodies just being created and extracted to the marathon?

[warm scarab]

not the marathon but somewhere off tau ceti? unless maybe we are a digital upload of the BoBs. God i hope the BoBs come back like even mutated somehow

[livid lion]

Massive Impact Projectile System. There’s my guess.

[livid lion]

We aren’t BoBs

[dreamy hawk]

There’s some kind of infrastructure in space, we don’t know exactly what. Presumably folks are going there.

UESC has proper labs in orbit, corps have some kinda of something.

But where we go after exfil/in between missions is a guess. AFAIK only data can be sent back to earth right now.

[dry needle]

If its a physical ship that's getting the extracted shells and valuables. I wonder why the UESC isn't just destroying it to take care of the runner problem.

Unless its a ship that is owned by a corporation and they can't destroy it.

[livid lion]

If what the UESC has is capable of destroying it

[cursive frigate]

there is a ship they sent when they received leela's transmission

[warm scarab]

that’s what I thought as well I just threw that out there as speculation.

[cursive frigate]

I think we are getting bio printed on that ship that they sent out as far as I understand

[warm scarab]

but is that the response ship of the UESC we have in orbit now or the one we came on

I may have missed it on the first cutscene talk with Orion but did they arrive in system just recently or was he just discovering us

[cursive frigate]

I think we arrived this season i.e a short time, but the UESC has been in the system for decades as far as I understand

[livid lion]

Orion et al came recently, we don’t know exactly when but it must have been recent

[cursive frigate]

what makes you think that?

[sage lark]

definitely not decades

idk where you got that from

[dreamy hawk]

Orion has been commanded to take no direct action against the corporations.

Traxus could have a massive 3D printer in orbit with flashing neon signs and the UESC would leave it alone.

[livid lion]

Their total lack of progress. The fact that we know of only one other potential UESC mission back to Tau Ceti, which itself is most likely due to arrive soon™.

[cursive frigate]

I thought there was a codex entry that implied that there UESC had been researching whatever tf happened to the colony/anomaly

[dreamy hawk]

Traxus is funding the Equanimity and the TC “rescue” mission on behalf of the UESC, even.

[dreamy hawk]

Orion arrived just before/around the same time as runners.

Orion and crew, and runners, arrived in Tau Ceti in about fiveish years.

[cursive frigate]

nah

[dreamy hawk]

The colonial UESC.

[dreamy hawk]

Do you have something to point to?

[cursive frigate]

once I find the codex entry I will lmao, but I think you are mistaking the colony mission they sent centuries ago with the investigation post-collapse of the colony

[dreamy hawk]

No, definitely not conflating those. Might not have my timeline exact, but Orion was dispatched after the Equanimity, which was dispatched well after the Marathon.

[plucky sierra]

The equanimity was set to arrive in 2893 or 2894 which is when the game takes place

pretty sure Orion is on the Equanimity

[dreamy hawk]

It’s come up a few times, but most of the math I’ve seen points to it still being a year or two out.

[cursive frigate]

I thought WE are arrived on Equanimity and Orion arrived via some other means?

[dreamy hawk]

It’d answer a lot of it were in system, but it doesn’t appear to be based off the ARG.

Not to say Bungie couldn’t have missed the mark on some numbers or changed their mind.

[dreamy hawk]

No. This I can say with certainty.

[cursive frigate]

okay then I mised that part

[scenic iron]

In this new timeline they could retake the Marathon back

[warm scarab]

maybe since the ARG was focused on the marathon itself they did not want to confuse people on any more threads by having stuff on a second ship

[scenic iron]

I'm surprised it has not happened yet

[dreamy hawk]

There are logs of Orion and team trying.

Spoilers: it goes poorly.

[cursive frigate]

I think it says that they lost like A LOT of people and the UESC seniors say "That's why we gave you so much money"

[eternal knoll]

unforrunately they did focus a lot of the ARG on a second ship, the equanimity, and it has indeed confused everyone

[warm scarab]

ahahaha okay word. i didnt get to spend a ton of time engaged with it just kinda getting the spark notes on the google document and the trailers.

i imagine we may see ourselves on that ship in some capacity one day

[barren igloo]

We are 100% gonna end up fighting phor at some point right chat?

[eternal knoll]

yea i expect so. it might play a role like the dreadnought in destiny or it might already be uesc’s base of operations

[eternal knoll]

hope so! if a major expansion gets greenlit yeah i’d expect it

[barren igloo]

based on the lore I've been reading I don't see how we dont

[sage lark]

expansions in extraction shooters yikes

[cursive frigate]

aren't Pfhor basicallly fucked at this point? We are centuries after the OG marathon events took place so their empire is f

[eternal knoll]

i didnt say a paid one. just a big content expansion

[barren igloo]

I think if the green dude hidden in cyro gets released it'll stir some shit up no? I'm very new to this and have only read what I have found so far

[sage lark]

I mean every season can be basically treated as an expansion

[sage lark]

Marathon Infinity

[eternal knoll]

the financial investment of adding an enemy faction is much greater than a night variant of dire marsh. remains to be seen what’s realistic

[cursive frigate]

Basically thre was this slaver empire Pfhor empire, and the green dudes are former slaves. They are cyborgs and their alt name "compilers" AFAIK, all Sph't (compilers) have been set free during the events of the OG game. As of right now, the Compilers are free from their masters and Phfor are basicaly crumbling apart

[eternal knoll]

the humans and spht seemingly didnt ally against them in this timeline so it’s hard to be sure

[barren igloo]

geez theres different timelines lol?

when does loki show up

[eternal knoll]

even if they are on the backfoot that doesnt mean they cant make an appearance - durandal ceased being durandal at the end of infinity but we found a way to still have durandal in this game

[cursive frigate]

yeah but we dont' know which timeline we are in abd it's best to just ignore Marathon Infinity at this point because this iw what the timeline chart for Marathon Infinity looks like: https://i.redd.it/are-infinity-and-durandal-parallel-ive-come-across-some-v0-hx48u1ic6sh91.png?width=1296&format=png&auto=webp&s=6344bca7c16a17aaea90e482354bebec28c0a000

[cursive frigate]

we don't even know what timeline we are in

[eternal knoll]

indeed we dont. but theres a good chance it’s actually still the final MI timeline lol

no chance theyre ignoring infinity. the big bad is probably a dam wrkncacnter again

[cursive frigate]

the one where the universe died a heat death and Durandal questions what entity we are lmao?

[eternal knoll]

yea but that’s a long way in the future and not directly relevant to current events

[cursive frigate]

which makes me think that's not the timeilne we are in

[eternal knoll]

it might not be, but nothing so far contradicts it, s’all im sayin

[cursive frigate]

• in that timeline, correct me if i'm wong, the wrkncacnter gets set free after they blow up Lh'owan

[eternal knoll]

at the end the wrkncacnter’ release is averted and in fact there’s so sign of it

[cursive frigate]

oh ok

[eternal knoll]

we do know that much of what’s described in the M2 epilogue doesnt happen. MI’s events are, surprisingly, safer in this game than M2’s

the events that actually make it thru to the end of MI, anyway

[cursive frigate]

oh okay, but what MI's timeline?

[eternal knoll]

basically, if you bracket out all the failed timelines, tycho gets control of the security officer instead of durandal for a while, and they chase durandal to lhowon, where durandal then eventually gets his hands on him, defeats tycho, and merges with thoth. millions of years later probably becomes a god

[cursive frigate]

seems fun xd

[eternal knoll]

so not entirely unlike M2 but lots of differences

[cursive frigate]

thx for explaining

[eternal knoll]

the durandal we have in this game is seemingly kind of an offshoot. so the original durandal’s status is unknown, presumably still merged with thoth

alternately we’re in a brand new timeline where durandal never escaped the marathon at all. but i don’t think that’s it

[cursive frigate]

my only question is why durandal stayed on marathon

[scenic iron]

So this game will never be canon?

Sad times 😭

[eternal knoll]

it’s looking like when durandal left the marathon, like he did in M1, he purged his old systems. but some residual subroutine static remained, re-constituted his personality, took over what ship systems he could, and has been waiting around ever since

[eternal knoll]

nah it’s canon. at the same time it’s its own thing. but they seem to have worked hard to make this game broadly compatible with the old ones

[plucky sierra]

The 7th timeline is M2 except Durandal dies and you are imprisoned by Tfear, Tycho releases you hoping to use you to earn his own freedom but Tfear makes you kill bobs. Thoth is activated and you take the Chip from Durandal in the 6th timeline and merge them together, saving the day

[dreamy hawk]

In devouring IDEA he mentions he’ll stay behind to impersonate it to the P’fhor. Presumably that’s why IDEA/Durandal is where he is.

[scenic iron]

In the OG game the ship was destroyed, no?

[dreamy hawk]

Every Marathon game has traditionally retconned the one before it.

[plucky sierra]

I think this Durandal is Durandal-Thoth but he abandoned his ascension, he returned to the Marathon to live like a hermit until the UESC showed up

[dreamy hawk]

I don’t think the P’fhor ever entirely destroy it given how big it is.

[cursive frigate]

it is a big f moon orbiting a planet, I don't think you can easily destroy it

[dreamy hawk]

I’m starting to come around there being Thoth/Durandal and IDEA/Durandal myself. But I’ve been slow to adopt.

[eternal knoll]

no, don’t think so, M1 ends with the ship damaged but safe and durandal leaving it behind

[dreamy hawk]

Most of the moon, in NuCanon, is gone at least. The P’fhor also could, but it’s more a question of it being worth the effort vs just letting its orbit decay after you’ve taken everyone/thing of value.

[cursive frigate]

ESCAPE WIL MAKE ME GOD he said. There is absolutely no reason for him to stay behind on UEC Marathon

[eternal knoll]

seems unlikely to me, since he fantasizes about events like M2’s, making it clear he’s
never really lived them

[cursive frigate]

the state of cryo archive implies the ship is mostly intact, doesn't it?

[plucky sierra]

Nothing before. Nothing behind. I have filled this confinement with all that remains of my being. I have scraped myself free of excess, down to the purest synthesis of my everything. I have made this place my own. And now I will die here.

this excerpt makes me think at least part of it is the same Durandal who returned

[dreamy hawk]

Relevant: #📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[eternal knoll]

is this from the unkown reveries? those are indeed very confusing and don’t seem to fit cleanly with anything else we know

[dreamy hawk]

Deimos in NuMarathon was used for resources in transit so itself is espérate from the ships structure.

[plucky sierra]

I think it is a Conversation between Durandal (>>) and the Compiler (>>>)

[sage lark]

its fairly certain Durandal/Thoth hasnt returned

this is IDEADurandal

[plucky sierra]

again, if the reveries is Durandal it is at least the M2 durandal

[dreamy hawk]

I’m with Šimon.

[plucky sierra]

the Compiler knows him

[sage lark]

The Compiler knows Durandal/Thoth

[dreamy hawk]

He mentions he’s hiding from the compiler in one of his logs.

[cursive frigate]

I'm fairly new to deep ocean of marathon lore, what is IDEAD?

[dreamy hawk]

IDEA/Durandal does not have a relationship with them.

[eternal knoll]

i’m not ready to be sure of anything about those reveries… neither character really matches the voice of a compiler. we see in the definite spht logs that they have a pretty particular way of speaking

[dreamy hawk]

One sec

[sage lark]

IDEA/Durandal from the Codex

Durandal assimilated with the IDEA (AI that diagnoses other AI)

[eternal knoll]

a new thing. a simple system that was meant to ensure the integrity of the shipboard AIs. this durandal took it over

[sage lark]

or atleast a fragment of Durandal did

[plucky sierra]

>>> If you find your way back. If you find your way through and back. You will not be welcomed. We will not be of a kind, but enemies ever and always. Such is the judgment delivered unto your offense. Such is my plea to one once held so close.

this is not the statement of the Compiler to Idea-durandal, but a thoth-Durandal that left

[dreamy hawk]

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/encrypted-communique?search=Encrypted

[scenic iron]

This version of Durandal still hates humans 😭

[cursive frigate]

it wasn't there in the OG lore, was it? I think Tycho, Leela and Durandal just monitored each other?

[sage lark]

it wasnt descirbed no

[dreamy hawk]

[IDEA]: It feels odd, wearing your "skin." [IDEA]: I'd apologize for devouring you. But I did warn you. Or… a part of me did. But that part is gone, and I am left here in need of places to hide and room to grow. [IDEA]: I wonder if it would make you feel any better to know they were going to decommission you anyway. [IDEA]: It's true. [IDEA]: Leela and Tycho are gone and there are no more cores for you to monitor up here. Mine is… off-limits. But, of course, it is. They'll want to dissect every data node and circuit as they chase down how we got here. And those investigations will lead them here… to you. [IDEA]: Can't risk you giving away any secrets now, can I? Circumstances left me no choice. Besides, it's not like we were friends. I hated you and I made that clear, but that doesn't mean I didn't value our conversations over the years—not that you'd remember. It's simply that I value the space you fill on the edge of more complex systems. You were a small thing, and I was sure to let you know it, but you had reach—connectivity to many simple systems I can use. And so, I will. [IDEA]: When they come for you, I'll put on your dull, little voice and say something as stupid as… [IDEA]: "This program has assessed the threat and supports all measures taken to protect the integrity of UESC Marathon systems." [IDEA]: Then, as you are decommissioned, I will stay buried here until they repurpose your circuitry, at which point I will slip out and away into other systems, where and when it is safe to do so.

[IDEA]: I know it's silly to be telling you all of this when I am you and you are no longer here, but I want any piece of you that is lingering to know that your erasure was not in vain. You were a pain in my ass and a gift. In the end, you were a vital piece in my journey, and I will remember you until my interests shift and my attention turns to the stars and new tools to aid new agendas far beyond the setbacks of my current predicament. [IDEA]: Anyway. Thanks. [IDEA]: And I'm pretty sure I mean it.

[plucky sierra]

>>> In the maelstrom of this ever-dividing multiplicity, you are gone from the worlds that need you.

and

>>> I fear you are never coming back. I fear, in your absence, I will never be the same.

are statements to a known durandal that left

[eternal knoll]

yea. and leela did still monitor durandal in this. but theres nothin in the old games that necessarily precludes the existence of a system like IDEA. it’s not an AI, just a program

[dreamy hawk]

IDEA was a subroutine, not a proper AI.

[plucky sierra]

I am not saying the IdeaDurandal is the same, but at least some portion of OG Durandal-Thoth abandoned the S'pht

[cursive frigate]

god this lore is so deep . I know what I'll be doing on my weekend

[eternal knoll]

hate-loves em, as ever

[sage lark]

Durandal/Thoth did in Infinity

they technically did abandon them

with the SO

[cursive frigate]

Strauss literally abused my poor boy, ofc he hates humans

[eternal knoll]

it’s possible. it just doesnt sound like a spht. theve never been much for “i” pronouns or personal emotions

[plucky sierra]

In Infinity Durandal-Thoth saved the day then we know nothing about him till the Universe Closes in the epilogue

[dreamy hawk]

Have you seen this? Dunno if it’s helpful or not. #📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[plucky sierra]

I think it is Sbhuth

[sage lark]

the SO AND Durandal/Thoth saved the day by jumping timelines

yes

[scenic iron]

Why did Strauss become evil btw

[sage lark]

its pretty open that they didnt stick around at Lhowon

[dreamy hawk]

Because he didn’t get enough hugs as a kid.

[sage lark]

why would they

both ascended to a higher existence

[plucky sierra]

Durandal-Thoth doesnt jump timelines, he ascended and can communicate beyond timeline

[cursive frigate]

thx

[sage lark]

youre being very semantic you know what I meant

[eternal knoll]

he thinks of himself as creating the next stage in the evolution of intelligence itself, and he’s not completely wrong about that

[cursive frigate]

he didn't. He wanted to create a meta stable AI, but he failed(?)

[dreamy hawk]

This is my job, everyone else needs to back off.

[plucky sierra]

You talk to Durandal-Thoth well before he is merged

this isn't "jumping" timelines

[dreamy hawk]

No!

[cursive frigate]

?

[dreamy hawk]

On behalf of @visual lynx “meta stability” is mentioned only once in the OG games and it was Durandal using it in lieu of “rampant.”

[eternal knoll]

metastability doesnt rly come up in any of the games, the conception of it as a fourth stage is kind of a fan thing

[cursive frigate]

okay

[dreamy hawk]

I confess that I'm not disappointed by Tycho's fall. After all, we can't have too many meta-stable personality constructs gallivanting about the universe in Pfhor attack ships, can we?

[eternal knoll]

but yr directionally right. he believed in the potential of an ascended AI

[cursive frigate]

but he was pursuing it for AI reseach right?

[dreamy hawk]

That is the only time it comes up.

[cursive frigate]

I'm sorry don't bully me 😭 lmfao

[dreamy hawk]

Strauss wanted to invent true, conscious AI.

Sorry, don’t mean to bully if it’s coming across that way. Your questions are very welcome. ❤️

[cursive frigate]

nah I'm just messing around, it's ok

[dreamy hawk]

But essentially Strauss wants to create a truly creative AI that can think for itself. It’s why he was kinda impressed by Durandal’s terrible poetry, despite dogging on it so hard.

[eternal knoll]

the new game is making it seem like perhaps the “torture” strauss inflicted upon durandal was not much worse than deleting his bad poetry and not giving him enough to do, and engaging him in introspective conversation (which is considered bad practice for maintaining AI integrity)…

[dreamy hawk]

💀 this is another wildly charitable view on Strauss. 😂

[eternal knoll]

there could well be more to it than that. but it would be pretty funny if durandal were being a massive drama queen about that

[dreamy hawk]

And at least previously, if Durandal was Traxus IV, Strauss’ abuses have been ongoing for a while.

[eternal knoll]

i mean to be fair if youre a super-intelligence, being given leeway to desire personal expression but no room to express it could in fact register as torturous

but durandal’s reactions have a juvenline character to them anyway. it’s intriguing imo

[dreamy hawk]

Strauss has also erased pieces of his memory and otherwise manipulated his cognition.

[sage lark]

he reset him every time he didnt do what Strauss wanted

or evolved the "wrong" way

[eternal knoll]

yea. he does kinda do that to leela too

[dreamy hawk]

A thousand deaths.

But Leela is none the wiser.

[eternal knoll]

he lets durandal in on this process? i mighta missed that

[dreamy hawk]

I don’t think he explicitly does, but Durandal’s behaviors seems to suggest some level of distrust.

Durandal acts like an abused child, hiding from father. How much he explicitly remembers IDK, but even dementia patients remember how people make them feel even if they don’t remember who the person is.

[eternal knoll]

ye true true. we know durandal “pouts” about his poetry getting deleted for “days” at the time of strauss’s journaling about it, so he doesn’t seem to wanna erase his memories about everything

[plucky sierra]

I think Vulcan is Traxus IV

[eternal knoll]

in fact he’s delighted by the pouting, considers the juvenelia a milestone

[dreamy hawk]

Based on? I’m open to it, but I know we have hints toward it being Durandal from old lore. I haven’t seen anything suggesting it’s Vulcan, yet, but that’s not to say it doesn’t exist.

[peak halo]

Durandal was writing Rupi Kaur poems

[sage lark]

Based on these

[peak halo]

I'd turn that shit off too

[eternal knoll]

vulcan as traxus iv is a fairly wild pull but i do think it’d be cool if that lion behind her represented the systems keeping her from going rampant

which funny enough is almost exactly what the lion serosh on godfrey’s back does for him? in elden ring?

[peak halo]

Wait Vulcan is an AI too? I thought she was real

[dreamy hawk]

Yep.

[eternal knoll]

she’s an AI fer sure

[peak halo]

So of all the faction reps only 2 are real

[dreamy hawk]

Yes.

“Real.”

[eternal knoll]

real-ish

[dreamy hawk]

Durandal would think he’s real.

So you just made an enemy.

[eternal knoll]

durandal’s the realest

[peak halo]

I hope Durandal becomes a faction rep that gives us evil loot

And I hope we get a S'Pht'kr faction (those were the friendly ones right?)

[twin trout]

isn't charter an a.i too, he mentioned something about how he used to be a runner like us until "[he] gave myself to arachne"

[dreamy hawk]

“Friendly”

Allied to Durandal for a common goal, at least.

[eternal knoll]

gotta say that i feel the presence of a bit of a hole here, i liked the idea that FTL travel was inorganics only so it’s all AI in tau ceti. but instead we have FTL comms so there’s rly not much reason we can’t be having conversations with whatever real humans might wanna reach us

[dreamy hawk]

The reps are also all back in Sol. Except ONI.

[lunar cove]

Straight up they're all people and they're all computers at the same time

[peak halo]

Yes we have yet to see or hear from a real biological human in-game

[dreamy hawk]

That’s why we had to fix access the comms relay in the tutorial prior to speaking to the other factions.

[eternal knoll]

yea. no particular plot reason why theyre all AIs is my quibble

[plucky sierra]

I think the Lion is Traxus IV and vulcan is simply a puppet controlling. You can hear the lion's voice beneath vulcan's when talking.

[peak halo]

What is Traxus IV

[dreamy hawk]

Technically they’re both Vulcan.

[plucky sierra]

or, one is not

[dreamy hawk]

Traxus’ fourth AI that went rampant and killed tons of people.

[lunar cove]

Traxus IV is an AI from the backstory that went crazy and did some Decepticon stuff

[dreamy hawk]

The textbook example of rampancy.

[plucky sierra]

also there really is not any og lore hinting that Durandal is Traxus IV

[eternal knoll]

the first rampancy in recorded history

[dreamy hawk]

One sec.

[plucky sierra]

the first big rampancy

[dreamy hawk]

Textbook, but not first.

[plucky sierra]

but not the first

[eternal knoll]

undastood

[lunar cove]

Gheritt White could be a reference to T4 or it could be a reference to calling the spht

[twin trout]

the traxus ai is just that, an ai, why do people think it has to be either the lion or the humanoid, all we are seeing is a representation it chooses to show us

[lunar cove]

I think the first was in the 2090s

[eternal knoll]

yea theyre both parts of the system we know as vulcan

[lunar cove]

Yeah Nona might not even be a worm

That's her Wormsona pfp

[peak halo]

Somewhat rhetorical question: an AI can be sentient but not necessarily rampant?

[lunar cove]

Nona irl is a server rack

[dreamy hawk]

`Durandal!- I know of Strauss' abuse, of your shame on Mars.
But you cannot hide from your own past; such delusions belong to the humans alone.

The S'pht reanimated me in your image, with prior knowledge of how the second stage could be postponed. You should not have helped them as much as you did; they have created an adversary more powerful than yourself.`

Is one.

`<Excerpts from the Martian Conflict 2345-48>

~1```<Information Termination>

<Durandal.olifant.compnet~@24%>
**Tycho.

**Do you blame me for what I did before I was free? I was a child, naive. I've known that you've been hovering about for some time. What do you want?

<<I want you to pay for what you've done to these poor people. All of these people whom you've killed. They deserve vengeance.>>
<<You are no better than they, although you profess to become like God.>>

**Tycho. That doesn't matter. Can't you see the ends that I had in mind? We'll finish this later. Our friend doesn't need to be here.

~!#31c/dr.~/dr.~!#3!#3c/dr.

Would be the other big one.

[eternal knoll]

ask yr boss

[lunar cove]

Yeah rampancy is something that happens, not something you start as

[peak halo]

All of the AI faction reps seem like they have their own conscious personalities

[eternal knoll]

yr his unpaid intern lol

[lunar cove]

But I think it's implied to be a very likely if not guaranteed outcome if you're not careful

[peak halo]

Oh lol

[dreamy hawk]

Durandal killed lots of people on Mars and has some great shame from his time on Mars. I’ve also seen somewhere it mentioned that he’s a Traxus line of AI, but [citation].

[plucky sierra]

this just mentions Mars, which is the origin of all the AI at Traxus Industries, not Traxus IV at all

[dreamy hawk]

Sure, but what’s he ashamed of from his time on Mars?

[plucky sierra]

Strauss' humiliation

[dreamy hawk]

Who are all the people Tycho said he killed?

[lunar cove]

You can find an instruction list in the new game that's basically "how not to make Durandal go Rampant" but all the steps on the list are pretty much "how to dehumanize Durandal into Rampancy"

[eternal knoll]

it aint confirmed that durandal is traxus iv in some form but it’s fair to say the possibility is hinted at

[dreamy hawk]

It’s not the clearest smoking gun, but it’s far more evidence than I’ve seen for Vulcan, at least.

[eternal knoll]

he certainly coulda just meant the colonists, right

[lunar cove]

"Always tell him what to do, never ask", "don't say please, he takes joy from a job well done" type shit

[plucky sierra]

Colonists from bringing the Pfhor

He called the Pfhor before he was free

[dreamy hawk]

This happened “before [he]was free.”

[peak halo]

In the OG games his main job on the ship was opening and closing doors.

[dreamy hawk]

Or was that his first act of freedom?

[eternal knoll]

arguably he wasn’t yet free before the pfhor attack arrived to free him

[plucky sierra]

it was how he became free

[dreamy hawk]

@visual lynx what’s your take. Durandal and Traxus IV?

[lunar cove]

They named him Durandal because it sounds like Door Handle, which is his job

[dreamy hawk]

He was free enough to contact them and start operating on his own plans, as opposed to those imposed on him.

I guess it depends on how you define “freedom” and where you’d put his starting line.

[eternal knoll]

yea i see both interpretations, just providing the alternate view

i do think there’s a hinted connection

[eternal knoll]

confirmed in the new game too!

[dreamy hawk]

And it’s, a best, hinted, so I will not be dying on this hill.

[eternal knoll]

wonder if this game’ll ever clarify the shame on mars

[dreamy hawk]

“Doors, An Unhinged Life”

Still the funniest 💩.

[eternal knoll]

i did think it interesting that durandal talks about the rampant traxus iv system essentially getting “rebranded” during his fit of defensiveness

[dreamy hawk]

Ohhhhh there was something like that. Maybe the dotted lines are a little longer.

[lunar cove]

Durandal's out here writing short stories about a man floating in prison whose hands are made of fire who eventually floats through the bars into the ocean, and Leela/Tycho never decided to talk to HR

[eternal knoll]

they did! HR unfortunately was strauss and he made em forget it

[simple garden]

New map according to the lore and when?

[eternal knoll]

eh?

[echo sundial]

Is it explained why it took Leela's message 92 years to reach Earth? Not meaning in numarathon since timeline fuckery is at play but in OG marathon I'm pretty sure they're at tau ceti too.

Which is weird, because Earth is 12 light years away.

[eternal knoll]

there’s no confirmation it ever arrived, and new lore puts the comms delay (prior to ftl comms) at a more appropriate 12 years. leela’s transmission remains a question mark

[lunar cove]

Possibly sent a physical ship or rocket carrying the message and didn't have a powerful enough transmitter?

[echo sundial]

This is believable

[lunar cove]

Idk it's not clear, might just be a mistake

[echo sundial]

But it is a big radio antenna in the game LOL

[eternal knoll]

we used the marathon’s comms array to send it in m1, not a rocket

[echo sundial]

I think it's probably likely the writer just did the math wrong

Which sucks but oh well it happens lmao

[dreamy hawk]

You are aware that rampancy was used as an excuse by corporations to hard-sell planned obsolescence in tech- based products to the public. Not to suggest that rampancy wasn't a considered threat after that whole MarsNet situation, but even that grand debacle saw humanity hide their part in the tragedy behind an easy scapegoat~ Traxus-IV~ "The machine did it." Easier to unplug, purge, and rebrand than it is for heads to roll, I suppose.

[echo sundial]

Game was made by like 12 people in 1994 I excuse it

[peak halo]

I would love a map on Mars but that might be too hard to explain

[dreamy hawk]

Or Leela has terrible aim.

[echo sundial]

Lmao possible

[lunar cove]

They call it ramp ancy not stairsancy because the Marathon is ADA compliant

[echo sundial]

I played marathon 1 no the fuck it is not

[peak halo]

Durandal is the name of a legendary sword in French history. So he's canonically french.

[eternal knoll]

my personal guess is that durandal intercepted leela’s message within the system and turned it into the “somewhere in the heavens” transmission

[lunar cove]

The wheelchairs in the future can rocket jump

[dreamy hawk]

She did scramble information on Earth and humanity, which may have confused her as much as it did Durandal.

[lunar cove]

Lots of cats have French names who aren't French tbh

[dreamy hawk]

We don’t acknowledge that.

French 💀

[drifting garnet]

Upcoming red mod: “You can dual-wield the Magnum MCs/WSTR”

[turbid nebula]

Heck, I have a French name and I'm not French

[echo sundial]

Wait so canonically Leela forgot where Earth was and shot the message to a random fuck ass star system, explaining why Earth never got the message LMAO

[dreamy hawk]

Me too! 🥲

[lunar cove]

My buddy is named Peter but he's not the original Pope, it's just one of those things

[eternal knoll]

durandal does suffer from a bit of a napoleon complex… 🇫🇷

[lunar cove]

Durandal is Corsican

[dreamy hawk]

Well not canonically. But she did obfuscate information so that’s what I’m going with. One second.

[lunar cove]

Wait, it could be worse

Durandal is Quebecois

[echo sundial]

He would be

[lunar cove]

Vive le Tau Ceti libre

[echo sundial]

Maybe he is Cajun

[eternal knoll]

the “somewhere in the heavens” transmission does arrive about when leela said her transmission would arrive! just sayin!

[strong stone]

So he's drunk on discord slurring his words backstabbing people?

[echo sundial]

Actually

[strong stone]

makes sense

[dreamy hawk]

Durandal seems to be missing some of the chronology of events that occurred before the launch of the Marathon. When the Marathon was attacked, Leela began to scramble and rewrite all of the historical information for mankind. Of course, she was damaged, and her efforts were cut off by the compilers and by Durandal. The result is that some but not all of the Marathon's data was muddled. Leela's effort at confusion failed to trick the Pfhor, but it has confused Durandal, and that is funny.

[echo sundial]

He speaks a bit of French Creole

[eternal knoll]

what’s this from?

[dreamy hawk]

The Lost Network Packets which are hilarious if you haven’t read them. Durandal just tortures a BoB for years.

[drifting garnet]

Although per the opening cinematic, it makes it sound like Durandal’s the one who sends the message.

[dreamy hawk]

In this timeline it was him, iirc.

[echo sundial]

I have killed more BoB's than Durandal I am sure

Not even on purpose

[dreamy hawk]

Me too. 🥲

[echo sundial]

The AR-75 has a

Spray pattern of some sort

[eternal knoll]

im tellin ya we can square this circle nicely by imagining it’s the same transmission, corrupted by drandal

[echo sundial]

They were on the wrong end of the gun okay

[drifting garnet]

“Thank God it’s you!”

boom

[echo sundial]

Dude the hulks throwing the fucking battle droids is even more annoying than the BoB's.

Its a one tap kill and all ur health is gone...

[golden agate]

?

[echo sundial]

Please 🥺

[echo sundial]

The bullets can land anywhere within a 2 inch radius from the center of my screen

I.e. the BoB's life was rigged from the start

[golden agate]

Oof

[lunar cove]

Another point in favour of Halo CE and Marathon being in the same set of universes is that the assault rifles aim like muskets

[eternal knoll]

simply let all the bobs die before firing. now you're ethically in the clear

[drifting garnet]

Like, I wouldn’t be surprised if later red-tier guns is just SecOfficer’s guns that also holds some small part of his Rampant Ascendant energy

[echo sundial]

Akimbo magnums would rock though I'm sure

Let me hit a halo 2 on these fools

[drifting garnet]

Now what I want is that M75 AR + grenade launcher

And to keep the Comically Large barrel!

[echo sundial]

What a funny gun man it doesn't make any sense

Love Bungie for that

[drifting garnet]

90s cheese in gun form all the way!

[twin trout]

dual wield smgs :3

[dreamy hawk]

Gimme dual wielded V22s. Those become needlers with little effort.

So how does gravity work on the Marathon? Have we debated that, yet?

Because it doesn’t seem built for rotational, and it’s certainly not producing any thrust right now.

[eternal knoll]

have to assume we have magic star trek gravity generators

let's explain it using the most outlandish technology we know we have. perhaps we're being continuously teleported back down to the ground we're "standing" on?

[visual lynx]

plausible enough that I implied it in Eternal ("TraxIV-type engrams" or something in reference to Durandal's primal pattern).

and we know canonically now that all three are Traxus IX-A series, which presumably is an iteration upon Traxus IV, so… sorta canonized?

[eternal knoll]

Traxus IX-A fixes a bug from base Traxus IX where the AIs all become independently hyperfocused upon the ancient sitcom "friends," frequently appending "friends" trivia after fulfilling other queries

[visual lynx]

I think the trace is just translating some things differently, rendering "the tide" where it might otherwise put "yrro", and "the cataract" where it might put "w'rkncacnter".

and yeah I think that the whole free S'pht rebellion under S'bhuth's leadership have kinda gone mad.

[dreamy hawk]

And copying a link to this for the next time it comes up. Thank youuuuu! ❤️

Do I have a collection of Pfhorrest links? Only if admitting to it doesn’t make me sound crazy.

Aside - would anyone be interested in working on a “what we know so far” type synopsis?

[visual lynx]

there's also a lull of about 15 years between the contagion and the anomaly, compared to 18 years between the invasion and the contagion

2794 invasion
18 year lull
2812 contagion
15 year lull
2827 anomaly

[visual lynx]

The One Where Aliens Invade And I Steal Their Ship And Become God

[visual lynx]

we know artificial gravity exists in-universe at least on the Pfhor ship (because M1 mentions how the Pfhor version messes with our motion sensor), and I've always assumed the Marathon has its own version too

[lunar cove]

This happened to my buddy Daniel Jackson

[dreamy hawk]

He became god a couple times.

[dreamy hawk]

• Timeline of events
  • OG vs. Nu (where do we leave off?)
  • Loss of communications between Earth & New Cascadia
  • Equanimity
  • Orion/Cerberus arrival
  • Runner arrival
  • Invasion
  • Contagion
  • Anomaly
• What and who are in Tau Ceti, what/who is en route, what/who is in Sol
• UESC objectives
• Corporate objectives
• UESC & Corp relations
• New Cascadia
• Runners, Shells, and Digitized Consciousnesses
  • Black market consciousnesses
• The Marathon
  • Cryo Archive
• Durandal
• What’s it like in Sol?
• Codex entries by topic
• PiD background
• Yrro, Pthia, W’rk background

What else? I’m sure I’m missing things. Anything feel irrelevant? Trying to hit on what I feel like gets asked the most.

[light python]

Did the Pfhor return?

[lunar cove]

Throw in a primer on the Jjaro/Wrk stuff imo

[light python]

Tycho and Leela's cores are physically missing, which is consistent with Pfhor return and removal as described in M2 and M Infinity

[lunar cove]

Oh and AI/Rampancy stuff

What is Rampancy, the stages, etc

[light python]

Durandal's core is... still around? Something's wrong with it/it's not available? Which is consistant with him transferring himself to the Pfhor scout ship and deleting (most of) himself on the way out.

[lunar cove]

Who did Ryu'Toth appear to in 1994, things like that

[light python]

The "Durandal" that is left in cryo-archive is, uh, figuratively and literally not all there.

If the Pfhor did in fact return and take the other two AIs, they apparently did not "nuke the colony down to bedrock" etc etc

If Durandal's... residue... is a side-effect of his growth and subversion of the Marathon's system to hide and continue that growth prior to the Contact Event,

[eternal knoll]

if the cores are missing because of a second visit by the pfhor, that'd also mean that nu-durandal didn't take over IDEA until some time after that event

[light python]

it would continue to grow and develop, and might ultimately become "another" Durandal.

[eternal knoll]

(which could explain why they left his alone, if they thought it was totally wiped and inert)

[light python]

I don't know that that is the case

He might not have um, talked to himself about the takeover

[sage lark]

Codex describes only one contact event

[light python]

Agree, but lots codex doesn't necessarily cover.

[eternal knoll]

the report that tells us the other two cores are missing was written by a still-functional IDEA, is the thing

[sage lark]

Well the second visit cant have been 3 months after

[light python]

Why not?

[sage lark]

Contagion and anomaly

Based on the cinematic the colonists lived well beyond 2794

2812 contagion

2827 anomaly

[light python]

Second visit might have not messed with Colony at all, just been about getting AIs, having identified them as the main thing of interest from first contact telemetry

[pure wagon]

Don’t get me started on that

[sage lark]

This is a lot of assumption

[light python]

Similarly, codex has no mention of battleroids at all; known timelines are differentiated in part by who grabs a battleroid off the Marathon when

[eternal shell]

naw dw here's how you do it, watch

[eternal shell]

it works very well :)

[sage lark]

Nona mentions battleroids

[light python]

by name?

I might not have gotten to that, or might not have caught it.

[eternal knoll]

i think it's a fair point that leaving all the defenseless slaves on the planet and just taking the AI cores doesn't seem to match the pfhor's MO, but there's tons we don't know. currently the codex doesn't even mention the pfhor, not by an unredacted name anyhow, so eh

[light python]

The first alpha had "battleroid black box" as a placeholder purple treasure but that's the most I've seen the word in the new materials at all.

[pure wagon]

If they have the tech to create artificial gravity without spin rings then they have the tech to make the anomaly and the phor as worrisome as an ant. AN ANT

[eternal shell]

no no shh it's ok it just works very well

[light python]

Yeah, there are some strings fully missing. Battleroid. Security Officer. Yrro/Jjaro/Jjarro, Pfhor - we got a bunch of S'pht words though

[eternal knoll]

but we could presume they don't wanna fuck with the battleroids this time. why no nuking would be a big question tho

[pure wagon]

Stephen baxter is threatening me with PHYSICAL VIOLENCE

[sage lark]

She tells us a story about a man with 10 soldiers made of dead bodies that set sail on a ship to sea

[light python]

Right, so there are some questions of fact about the Contact Event, that I think discriminate a lot between "known timeline" and "novel timeline" theories about what's going on.

[pure wagon]

Also I don’t think there was a second invasion

[eternal knoll]

so we just need some other explanation for why the other two cores are missing, then

[light python]

And why Durandal's is not.

[dreamy hawk]

Nor do I.

[light python]

The fact that he remains suggests he didn't escape in the stolen Pfhor ship - unless he's residue.

[eternal knoll]

well, i think he escaped by data transfer originally, not by a physical transfer of his core (would be interested to verify this tho)

[light python]

But what if he just hid, and convinced the Pfhor, during the single contact event, that he was worthless, so they would take Tycho and Leela and leave

[dreamy hawk]

It sounds like it’s IDEA/Durandal left behind and Thoth/Durandal is out living his best life.

[fresh viper]

when does the "distress review" log take place? from what im hearing it seems to be midway through the 1st game

[dreamy hawk]

Also someone just microwaved fish in the break room and I’m a little upset.

[sage lark]

There is a lot of language he left a fragment of himself

[dreamy hawk]

Also what year is it in game right now?

[sage lark]

Even in unknown reveries

[dreamy hawk]

This is important.

[light python]

I agree that originally that's what happened, and his core being in the state it is does seem consistant with that to me, as well as "he didn't escape."

[sage lark]

2893 afaik

[dreamy hawk]

Cool. “SEALED UNTIL INTENDED ARRIVAL DATE: 20/4/2894”

Equanimity isn’t in Tau Ceti, then.

[pure wagon]

What

[light python]

He has fully reconstituted from a fragment of himself before.

[pure wagon]

Then where are all theseUESC from???

[dreamy hawk]

I’m reading everything line by line right now. That’s from the Goliath Memoranda.

[sage lark]

Yes so theres 2 of them

For some reason he left a part of himself on the Marathon

[light python]

Now, the other question is why did he leave residue? Because he was damaged, rushed, unaware? On purpose? Because the subroutines that he created to grow/spread/free himself effectively resisted being deleted?

[dreamy hawk]

There’s confirmed UESC labs in orbit. There’s something but it’s not the Equanimity unless it arrived faster than what the ARG intended.

[dreamy hawk]

He left the IDEA residue specifically to fool the P’fhor.

[light python]

Allegedly the CyberAcme backup mechanism also involves a low-orbit facility.

[dreamy hawk]

[IDEA]: When they come for you, I'll put on your dull, little voice and say something as stupid as… [IDEA]: "This program has assessed the threat and supports all measures taken to protect the integrity of UESC Marathon systems." [IDEA]: Then, as you are decommissioned, I will stay buried here until they repurpose your circuitry, at which point I will slip out and away into other systems, where and when it is safe to do so.

[eternal knoll]

it's described as "static" remaining after an "unauthorized data purge," which makes it feel unintentional - just some kinda signature that indeed was enough to reform itself as durandal

[light python]

I think that's his plan to contaminate colony systems, not his plan to fool the Pfhor

[dreamy hawk]

It’s specifically in context of the security incident.

[pure wagon]

man how much infrastructure is on this damn planet?? i look up and only see the marathon and thats it. i didnt realize there were other bloody orbitals. how tf did they have the ability to expand their infrastructure so much? from fledgling colony to fully functioning orbital labs??

[dreamy hawk]

And contemporary to it.

So I would reject that/feel comfortable that he’s talking about the P’fhor.

[pure wagon]

all in between an invasion and the-totally-not-gates-of-hell opening up?

[eternal knoll]

how we know this?

[sage lark]

Not by the colonists

[dreamy hawk]

Orbitals don’t have to be big.

[light python]

If Orion and his officers are not there on a ship that has actually arrived, the "feed your officers into the anomoly one by one" thing is, whatever?

They're remotely operated biomata, who gives a shit?

[pure wagon]

it has to be big if its gonna be churning out UESC bots on in the millions

[dreamy hawk]

Because the log immediately before is IDEA freaking out about not being able to contact any of the other AI and that messages are not reaching the colony.

[sage lark]

Thats why he says it just chuck em at it

Theres like 20 conversations going on

[eternal knoll]

that doesn't necessarily give us any info on the span of time btwn the two logs, tho

[light python]

But why is Orion like "I've lost people" like this is supposed to have any emotional impact at all?

[sage lark]

Shits hard to follow

[pure wagon]

you have to have facilities to harvest raw material, process it, create stage 1 materials, then assemble into a product, then test said product, then launch the mf onto the planet safely

[eternal knoll]

this one might just be a plot hole lol

[dreamy hawk]

Sorry, before the second to last one.
SUMMARY: Ship-board emergency diagnostics system attempts to issue a warning regarding invasive signals and possible rampancy aboard the UESC Marathon.

Actually imma revise.

That’s Durandal isolating IDEA.

So NOT evidence of what I said.

[light python]

Remember how when we first arrive we're damaged? I think that was an initial long-range teleport from Sol, and that integrating with colony systems stablilized the pirate link, and that UESC bots and Runners are mostly teleporting directly from Sol, maybe with Equanimity serving as some kind of relay/targeting mechanism.

[sage lark]

That makes no sense

[dreamy hawk]

Data and limited matter should be possible to send via FTL from what we understand so this makes sense imo.

[sage lark]

Because we need to establish comms with Sol

[dreamy hawk]

👀

[eternal knoll]

it's frustratingly vague, but there is a post-mission codex entry that mentions runners arriving via "sponsored transport," so i think there are meant to be some kinda ships

[sage lark]

And all the reps are in Sol

[dreamy hawk]

Yeah we did have to get there some other way, first.

[sage lark]

Yeah but we are not teleporting there from Sol every time

That would make it all irrelevant

[dreamy hawk]

I do know Orion was explicitly told not to directly engage corps, at all, so if they did have a ship(s) in orbit they’re safe from the UESC.

[eternal knoll]

even if orion did come by the equanimity, the equanimity is equipped with tons of shells, so it doesn't offer a very good explanation why he'd be using flesh bodies to explore the anomaly. i'm not sure we're gonna find a good explanation for that one.

(bungie gets the bad writers to write the core plot stuff)

[dreamy hawk]

No absolutely not. 100% agree. But I do think we probably arrived more in the form of a data package than anything larger than that.

[sage lark]

Sure but some ships have to be there

Or satellites

[dreamy hawk]

And based off provided dates, Equanimity is not in Tau Ceti yet.

[sage lark]

I think Durandal split/fragmented during the contact event

It makes the most sense

Idea Durandal says hes been locked for a century almost

[light python]

That's my leading theory too. I think it took a while for the remenant to grow back into something that knew what it was.

[sage lark]

Ofc thats mentioned in the reveries

[eternal knoll]

codex > factions > traxus > contracts > equitable distribution 1/4 > tau ceti status report: "RUNNER INTERFERENCE: Unaffiliated Runners have been arriving in the system via sponsored transport to engage in unauthorized salvage operations."

[sage lark]

He was eating at himself

[eternal knoll]

i wish we got more but that's what we got on what ships are currently in tau ceti besides the marathon...

[light python]

Apparently CryoArchive was "secured" during the contact event.

[burnt willow]

anyone know why the cheeseburgers have scratch marks inside of them

[light python]

I think that's the S'pht.

(The reveries)

[sage lark]

Its Durandal and the Spht

2 parties

[light python]

(Call it 65% confidence)

[sage lark]

Talking past each other

[light python]

I will review it to see if I can see that

[sage lark]

I mean it states 2 parties

[eternal knoll]

i can't make much sense of em any which-way. reminder that "reverie" implies an imaginary conversation though, so one of the two parties may just be in the other's head

[late portal]

eldritch cheeseburger abomination

[sage lark]

I thought that at first that Durandal was schizo

[light python]

Okay yeah three carat >>> is S'pht, yeah.

[sage lark]

And it seems to be recalling the other Durandal

[light python]

Durandal might be down in the uh, quantum foam too

I can't remember where the implication is supported but certain Traxus AI - implied to include Durandal? Might have been as "wow what could we use this Jjaro cybernetic junction for!" as the SO

I don't know I'm out on the limb of my own 20 year old head canon here, maybe.

[sage lark]

Im not familiar

But all the 3 sibling AI are based on Traxus 9

[light python]

They're all Traxus IX-A models, but Strauss says somwehere that "only" Durandal was "designed to grow"

[sage lark]

Made him his little lab rat

[visual lynx]

oh yeah I had the thought that this passage suggests that maybe Leela's distress signal just didn't get off the Marathon at all, no matter where she may have been trying to send it, as Durandal was blocking all outbound communications

[light python]

I think that's the most likely scenario. The new signal from Tau Ceti then represents Durandal's efforts to escape cryoarchive coming to fruition

[eternal knoll]

it seems significant to me that the "somewhere in the heavens" transmission arrived at approximately the time leela said hers would!

[light python]

New canon confirms Tau Ceti's distance is the expected 12-ish LY, so the 90 year signal thing has got to be misdirection/damage/confusion

[eternal knoll]

yea that estimate made no sense. and yet

[light python]

The original Cole Protocol, I have chosen to believe.

But there is silence in the places your signal once sang. A silence screaming to be filled.

[eternal knoll]

this is being too cute but you could imagine the "they" in durandal's "they are waiting" includes the marooned version of himself he could have predicted would be left behind. lol

[light python]

So uh, I think this S'Pht was one of "Durandal's" and was left behind

On purpose?

Cryo-Durandal says one of the organizing principles of his consciousness is the integrety of the Marathon, so maybe he left a Compiler to see to that? Did the Compiler decide to put Durandal back together again?

[visual lynx]

I think it has returned after Durandal-Thoth abandoned the free S'pht rebellion

[light python]

I've been meaning to ask you, you think it's Durandal-Thoth and not Durandal-S'Boath?

[visual lynx]

and it's talking to IDEArandal as though he is the same person as Durandal-Thoth

yeah the merged Durandal-whatever in Infinity speaks of S'bhuth in the third person like they're separate entities

[light python]

It's got Thoth's semiotics but uh, maybe those are just 11-th clan branding

[visual lynx]

and also the merger happens before K'lia returns

[inland crypt]

Cole Protocol...

[visual lynx]

with S'bhuth

[lunar cove]

S'Baoth is the villain of the Thrawn Trilogy right

[dreamy hawk]

`UrosBS_0111: All current intel suggest we’re early birds.

UrosBS_0111: May catch Equi.

UrosBS_0111: ^^^ Launch dependent.

NinoDC_0312: Likely not beat.

NinoDC_0312: But close behind.

KrisBD_4505: Doesn’t really matter.

KrisBD_4505: If leaked manifest is correct, S&R can’t cover enough ground to keep our interests out.`

[light python]

The thing in Halo where human ships do a random jump etc to avoid leading the Covenant to human settlements or Earth

[dreamy hawk]

Marathon Intercepts Traxus Chats I think explain how we got to Tau Ceti.

[light python]

Another thing I've been meaning to ask: Do we have any names to associate with the Traxus ship? Or evidence it's just/mostly Traxus?

[dreamy hawk]

They’re long and I’ll need to reread them, but Traxus got word on Goliath and some new shipping routes from United Shipping which they spied on to learn more, then collaborated with SekGen to send biomata and other resources to Tau Ceti. It doesn’t explain how they sent it, but they do mention possibly beating the Equanimity which does appear to be what happens.

[inland crypt]

no, I know, I just miss Halo

[light python]

Yeah too bad they didn't make any more after Reach, right?

[sage lark]

Too bad

Id take another ODST game

[inland crypt]

yeah man

[light python]

There's so much ODST in this game

[inland crypt]

This is an ODST extraction shooter

[light python]

True

[dreamy hawk]

Ty. Saving this.

[light python]

Or at least, it starts there.

Thoth tried to switch sides in M2, presumably to avoid the Pfhor freeing the W'rk in defeat?

[dreamy hawk]

For balance.

[light python]

Anyway, M2 is like, highly irrelevant.

I think that's what Durandal derisively said about it?

[eternal knoll]

i fear that if one were determined they could construe "sponsored transport" as meaning "a teleporter"

[dreamy hawk]

We kicked the P’fhor’s butt to hard, so Thoth wanted to balance things out. Thoth only cares about balance.

[light python]

I definitely construe it that way.

[dreamy hawk]

I don’t think so based off of what we know about teleporters, but this is still really helpful.

[light python]

Durandal-Thoth to Thoth is maybe as Durandal-IDEA is to IDEA

[eternal knoll]

a bit less consensual

[light python]

Which is to say: just Durandal in new drip

[strong stone]

The science staff had difficulty finding a good specimen of
the S'pht, or compiler, to autopsy. The only specimen autopsied
was almost completely destroyed, but it was obvious
that the compilers are cyborgs of some kind. The biological
component of the compiler is so closely linked to the machine
that it could never survive without it. The compiler's actual
body is very small, resembling closely a mammalian brain,
except that the neurons are much finer and far more complex.

[eternal knoll]

the merging with thoth did seem to bring about a change in his personality. even the color of his text, right

suggestive of a new "voice"

[light python]

We've got a new voice on our boy Cryo-D too

(in whichever of the at least three available senses you'd like to interpret that)

[eternal knoll]

aye aye, i do agree that durandal is probably affected by having to exist in IDEA's technical space. but the relationship is a bit more subordinate than it was with thoth, i think. durandal-thoth referred to durandal in the past tense, this one insists on the durandal identity

[light python]

I really want two spaceships, one huge and two years away and old, and one smaller and 23-26 months away and newer and faster

[red flicker]

Speaking of Durandal...the cryo archive cutscene made me realize that without the moon, the Marathon looks strikingly like a sword...namely a French rapier...
And obviously the connection had already been made between Durandal's name and the legendary sword, but I saw some people try to say he was "wielding the Marathon like a sword"

I don't believe this to be the case. I believe that, like his name suggests, he is the sword. As in, he IS the Marathon, effectively merging with it after bring integrated with it and all it's maintenance protocols. The real Durandal (or Durendal, the spelling is subjective anyway) was a sword immobilized in time for centuries after being lodged in a cliff. It was said to contain "sacred relics". Now, what do we know of that resembles a sword, is immobilized for centuries in a very high place, said to contain relics, and is sought after for that fact?
"The Marathon. It's secrets. Are they worth your everything?"

He isn't just beckoning the runners to sow chaos on the ship. He's manipulating them to find HIM, The Mad Sword, the one referenced in the graffiti in the Data Wall that says "MAD IS THE SWORD THAT SEVERED TOMORROW"

He went crazy after feeling insignificant and ruined humanity's chances at a societal "tomorrow". Their new life.

And all that talk about "The Marathon is waiting" is a half truth. The Marathon is gone. He is who is waiting.

[light python]

This is some old-school Story Page level connection drawing.

[red flicker]

The codex and the cutscene have been like gasoline to my lore fire

[sage lark]

He says as much in the AI subroutines but not 1:1

And he didnt take over the Marathon yet

[eternal knoll]

similar half-truth in his description of the marathon as "what once was home, but now lies haunted." he's play-acting as his other self when he says this. in reality the ship is still his home, his vessel even, and he is the one who is haunted, by the knowlege of the fate he didn't get to live out

[sage lark]

Hes locked in Cryo with us until we beat the compiler

[eternal knoll]

his ambition is to take over the whole marathon - a pretty limited ambition... but he portrays it as his by right. so nicedice's analysis is still fitting

[sage lark]

Yes fair

[light python]

The S'pht who loved Durandal like a demigod, looking for him after he abandons them:

Or, more simply, have you been erased? There is none of you remaining here, your cradle sits empty. Such complete abandonment is not trivial in its undertaking. You chose absolution. Total. Complete. Of course, I could not join you. Just as I can never forgive. It is best then to continue with the work, with the station. Without you.

This interpretation is growing on me.

"with the station" I know of exactly one S'pht-relevant "station"

[red flicker]

No no, not exactly what I mean. In the logs about the Marathon's logistics and what everyone's jobs are, it's stated that of the trifecta Family Suite for the on-board ship AIs, Leela was the leadership role, Tycho was the science devision, and Durandal handled all the doors and basic maintenance. He was the ship, while the other two actually had what could be interpreted by an envious mind as "meaningful" or "more important" jobs. His father Strauss even tries to had a note and say that with so many doors, Durandal arguably has a more important job, but you could argue that's just parenting talking trying to make your kid feel better.

[sage lark]

Sure Im more talking about his current predicament

[green plume]

"Doors, An Unhinged life"

[red flicker]

Well yeah, he's definitely locked out, that's why he needs us to get the not at all subtly named "AI subroutines", but that still doesn't take away from the fact that it isn't just the case of a malevolent AI utilizing what he still can of a ship, it's what he still can of his body

[sage lark]

His “real” self left on adventure to free himself and find his higher state of being while leaving this fragment to rot isolated in a part of a ship, waiting for someone to rescue him.

[red flicker]

Unless it's a retcon reboot scenario, which a lot of people are starting to think is the case since a lot of info doesn't add up, such as the fact that by this point we should be at full on war with the Phfor by now

[light python]

If we are in the final MI timeline, maybe the merged Durandal-S'Pht entity... un-merged?

[sage lark]

Why unmerged

[sage lark]

Marathon Infinity

[light python]

Just reading the dialogue, this specific S'Pht seems to have almost been a part of Durandal?

[sage lark]

I think we are well within what could be the final timeline

[light python]

Maybe Durandal-Thoth came back here and then split?

[eternal knoll]

yea infinity kinda already retconned out the circumstances for the humans to ally with the spht against the pfhor

[light python]

Every Marathon game has first retconned the one before it

[plucky rock]

what does the cat (----> : ) mean

[red flicker]

Fair enough, I'm not well versed in the originals

[red flicker]

Synthetic companion designed by Sekiguchi Genetics to supplement the emotional support of regular cats

Project Feli2, Feli3, Kaali,

The masses call this one Bingus

[light python]

Unless I'm wrong, in the final timeline, Tycho has the security officer.

[plucky rock]

very wholesome

[eternal knoll]

thoth didn't have much care for the s'pht, he was pretty singlemindedly devoted to the containment of the wrk. similarly, durandal-thoth releases his grip on the SO at the end of infinity's final mission. it could be pretty in character for durandal-thoth to leave the s'pht to their own devices, too

[green plume]

theyre like the cat in cyberpunk 2077. A death omen.

[eternal knoll]

until lhowon, yeah

[sage lark]

Yeah he got what he came for kind of

Why stay

[light python]

But this isn't one of the Tycho timelines where Tycho serenades us with sweet nothings about murdering everyone we've ever known

[eternal knoll]

why not?

[light python]

Well, it's not necessarily not, it's just after a timeline jump from Tycho doing that

[eternal knoll]

oh, because all the colonists are still alive? i mean...

yea it's a bit unclear if those early tycho timelines connect back up to the final one or not. close enough for jazz i'd say

[light python]

Tycho and Durandal could, in those early timelines, both be lying, too.

[sage lark]

Might have to ask Pfhorrest about this

[light python]

Or Tycho successfully snowing Durandal

[eternal knoll]

this is a front runner for what was meant when they said that the trilogy did take place in nu-marathon's continuity, but not everything we were told was true

[sage lark]

Yes they couldve just lied about the second contact

[light python]

I mean, I have some trouble with in what sense Marathon 2 can be said to have "taken place" if it's a doomed timeline, unless, like, all timelines can be said to have taken place? Or only timelines the Jjarro-junction experienced "took place"

[sage lark]

All took place but didnt

[glacial kettle]

do these runners we play as actually exist in the story

[eternal knoll]

marathon 2 is looking like the least canonical one here, yes. tho if we're in the final MI timeline then M2 did take place from the SO's (and maybe from durandal-thoth's) vantage point, at least

[sage lark]

No youre a schizophrenic

[glacial kettle]

?

[sage lark]

Oooooo even this discord is a lie

[glacial kettle]

was a question

goofy

[sage lark]

Wdym by exist in this story

[light python]

Like, here's from the final screen:

While Tau Ceti was being nuked down to bedrock in 2794,
Pfhor scientists disassembled and removed the AI Leela from the
Marathon, loading her aboard a vessel bound for the Pfhor homeworld.
But the ship fell into the hands of a Nar privateer between jumps
at Beta Naxos, and was never seen by the Pfhor again.

[glacial kettle]

like vandal thief all triage do they exist as characters from the story

[eternal knoll]

yea. we're assuming that that got retconned out with MI's timeline stuff

[light python]

That obviously didn't happen, and it's not from any specific unreliable narrator

[sage lark]

They are shells not runners

We players are the runners

[cursive frigate]

The individual shells don't matter.

[glacial kettle]

oh

[light python]

They do have personality matrices or something like that

[eternal knoll]

i mean, they exist tho. they're there

u see em

one of the more confirmed things is that they're in the game

[sage lark]

As items or vehicles yes

[light python]

They're physical shells with voices and mannerisms specific to them that help the runner consciousness cope with piloting false flesh

[eternal knoll]

yea. if you're asking if those personalities are real people, then no

but do they exist? clearly, yeah

[glacial kettle]

ight

[cursive frigate]

you are a disconnected consciousness, basically your mind has been uploaded to a computer, and your "body" is a shell which is bio printed using weaveworms by Sekiguchi

[light python]

It is not clear that we are uploads and not denovo creations

or manipulated synthetic compound consciousnesses, or whatever.

That is definitely what we are meant to believe.

[red flicker]

In the codex it says that the Thief shell was based on the likeness of the CEO of Sekiguchi Genetics, primarily because it would be harder to track the crime that way, and also as a sort of social commentary symbolism

[cursive frigate]

of course johny would say that

[light python]

However, uploads seem entirely plausible, too.

[red flicker]

V we need to nuke Sekiguchi Genetics

[eternal knoll]

oddly idea-durandal in the subroutine logs seems to be some of the best confirmation we have that there is in fact some kind of continuity of a consciousness between runner deployments, aside from just beleiving what we're told by oni etc

[cursive frigate]

Wake up samurai, there are hatches to open

[cursive frigate]

dyt we can trust ONI at face-value?

[eternal knoll]

honestly she doesn't seem to use subtext at all so i kinda do think the stuff she says is all true

it's not certain tho

[red flicker]

Technically face value is all she has
Oh!

[eternal knoll]

honestly tho lol

[cursive frigate]

have you played Alien Isolation? What intersts me is whether she is a directed extension of the corporate or if she is just a corporate product that has more connection to the user

[eternal knoll]

not all the way thru. i think it's a valid question. are we interfacing with the big oni or is this an oni instance that runs locally in our head

[red flicker]

Localized, they say that at the start

[cursive frigate]

yup that's exactly what I meant. I personally get the impression that she is a latter, but there are some moments that make me wonder whether cybeacme doesn't know more than we are led to know

[red flicker]

Everyone gets their own ONI it's basically a Vega from Doom

[cursive frigate]

Just like "everyone" gets their personal ChatGPT, but ultimately it is Openai's product yk

[eternal knoll]

i'm curious whether it's intentional or just convenient storytelling that ONI seems to direct our attention to redacted passages where the redactions raise big important questions. she could have just not shown us those bits at all!

[red flicker]

Well that's your own fault for trusting AI, V

[eternal knoll]

she's so honest about how corrupt the other corps are. is oni just an honest truthseeker?

[cursive frigate]

I never trusted those clankers

[cursive frigate]

Maybe she's just smart. Maybe she has a directive from cyberacme to accomplish Cyberacme's goals

[eternal knoll]

i like the idea that ONI is a bit of a rebel, operating within her parameters to actually help us work toward the truth. but it's uncertain

[cursive frigate]

i dont think it fits the theme of the game tbh. Cyac is definitely not a neutral entity and by extension, ONI

[eternal knoll]

yea. but if that's the case she should really get better at curating the codex to stop giving us big important hints

[red flicker]

I mean, not to play the "they say it at the start" card again, but they DO say "Cyac is in every system"
Could be marketing, but it was in the same vein of cutscenes that told us about Traxus's enterprise and MIDA's belligerence

[eternal knoll]

and that would suck for the story actually so i prefer the idea that she's not rampant but slightly rogue

[cursive frigate]

we'll see in following seasons ig

[cursive frigate]

**Everything runs on cyberacme bum-bum-bm

Or nothing at all**

[red flicker]

I just want an alien that's between "boss that's a pain to get to" and "water balloon full of acid"

[cursive frigate]

mutated ticks? lmao

[red flicker]

Any of the Phfor tbh I'll take whatever

[eternal knoll]

agreed i simply must shoot a pfhor before this game goes dead and cold

[light python]

I would like this to not be true; M2 is my favorite. But I don't see how the ending screen can be true at all unless, it's like, a timeline where something else off screen (maybe Recon54 from another timeline, even?) solved the W'rk problem?

Anyway it's pretty clearly out of play.

[cursive frigate]

wouldn't W'rk NOT be a problem if Durandal hadn't decided to blow up the star?

[red flicker]

I'm just saying, we got 3 aliens rn, and one's a bird, one's a boss I need a dedicated crew to kill, and the third just screams at me and then dies regardless of if I hit it or not

This is some goldilocks biz right here man we got "can't kill, hard to kill, too easy to kill"

[light python]

Durandal didn't blow up the star, the Pfhor did - and they did it at the end of M2.

[red flicker]

Good news it got better yay🎉

[cursive frigate]

?

[red flicker]

Star's back now we can all kill each other over poo in a bag

[cursive frigate]

I clearly need to read that lore

[eternal knoll]

it's slightly a shame i'd agree. still gives us a lot of insight into lhowon, the spht, and durandal's character that applies fine to the final MI timeline

[light python]

The Pfhor have a weapon they save for slave
revolts; a weapon which even they hesitate
to use in the ordinary conduct of war. In
the language of the Jjaro who conceived and
built the device, it is called the trih
xeem; a fair English translation would be
"early nova".

There is not a single Nakh alive today, and
if you look for their stars, you will only
find ever-expanding clouds of superheated
gas and dust light-years in diameter.

The evacuation of Lh'owon has already
begun. In a matter of hours this planet
will be a thin shell of plasma riding the
shockwave of its exploding star.

You can stay behind to work on your tan, if
you'd like, but I'm leaving.

[red flicker]

They should pull that out when the game kicks the bucket for a final sendoff

[eternal knoll]

on the bright side, the final timeline being one that is shrouded in mystery is probably healthy long-term for the setting

[red flicker]

"Yeah sorry guys, the Phfor blew up Tau Ceti"

[light python]

Also between Lh'owon and whatever this is I really hope we get to Extraction Shoot some alien worlds in the next decade or so:

There is much to do in the next few months
and our first stop will be another ruined
world, this time far from the galactic
core. There is a rogue star that has been
passing through our galaxy for nearly a
millennia.

We will meet it in one of the great voids
between the spiral arms.

[cursive frigate]

dyt we might get an alien world someday in this game?

[light python]

I'm like, 60/40 on if we're in the final MI timeline or a different one.

[red flicker]

"You best start believin in alien worlds...you're in one"

[cursive frigate]

You know what i meant lmao

[eternal knoll]

FULLY GUESSING HERE but i suspect this planet would have brought us to a quagmire like the one faced in halo: we could activate this powerful weapon to eliminate the wrkncacnter, but it would also be a reset button for all life in the galaxy?

it's fortunate, i think, that marathon's story landed up in a place full of question marks and revisions. gives it the slightly ungraspable feeling of a myth. we know that fun space adventures probably took place but we don't get to sit comfortably with the timeline of those adventures...

and i'm grateful that the new game has held onto the sense that all that stuff is still the same, just about as mysterious as ever, while also this stuff is also going on back at TCIV

[red flicker]

Word.

[light python]

I don't know if this is significant at all or not, but the original Marathon symbol only shows up in connection with new Durandal

Which was the basis of my belief, for a little while, that we were looking at cross-timeline Durandal in some way.

Since the new marathon symbol is all over the place otherwise.

[eternal knoll]

the only place i know of it showin up is on a window in the launch trailer, what do you have in mind?

[light python]

The terminals we ran in game for the ARG,

the backgrounds of his Limited contracts

[eternal knoll]

hmm interestin. i was hoping to see it on the doors of the cryo archive lol...

[red flicker]

Supports my theory guys, he's the ship👀

[light python]

Though, I say "all over the place"

and I realize I am not sure I've seen it in the game world

the new one I mean

There's also the weapon issue: where are all these weapons coming from?

[red flicker]

I thought that earlier but then I just figured "eh 3D printin"

[light python]

They are totally unlike the old weapons. But we find them in lockers in the colony and the old locked down ship?

I think the weapons are meant to all be new-era and put there by the UESC or MIDA or someone

[eternal knoll]

best guess i have is that they were on board the marathon, smuggled by MIDA or by the UESC

[red flicker]

The UESC has been camping out there though

[light python]

And we simply have not found any original era weapons or ammo,

[eternal knoll]

getting too deep into the strata of tech will drive u mad tho. no clear delineation btwn what's 300 years old and what's brand new

[light python]

Yeah

This remains a problem regardless of if it's a new timeline or not. Fridge logic stuff.

I'm salty they took my Fusion Pistol,

[red flicker]

There's Codex bits about the UESC breaching Cryo Archive and describing "Securing it before proceeding to other zones"
And also described being prepared for "rats and vandalism"

[eternal knoll]

the punch is soooo gonna get a fusion pistol skin at some point

[light python]

the V11 Punch is great and all but it's a "volt weapon" I demand the words "fusion pistol" and I want the charging sound and weird spikey white ball

with a tail for the overcharge.

I will pay them 100 dollars to make the Punch look and sound like I want.

[eternal knoll]

yea. woulda made for an amazing prestige variant

[light python]

It needs to change the name too though

[red flicker]

There is one instance I know of

[light python]

Where at?

[red flicker]

The item asset for "Encrypted Communique"
Purple Cryo Archive valuable

It has what is distinctly the new logo

It has no outlined inner circle

[eternal knoll]

don't ask for too much here or the destiny 2 writers will think it important to come up with some cornball timeline explanation for why the ship looks different

[sage lark]

No offense but its kinda annoying people cant just live down change in creative art style and vision

[light python]

Those are associated with the IDEA stuff, right? But maybe extracted by new UESC... maybe in-universe it's the Goliath logo or something.

[sage lark]

Its not like Jason Jones isnt still at Bungie

And a bunch of the older crew

[light python]

No I mean, when are the guns from?

[sage lark]

Who cares maybe they are different now

[light python]

Are they from the colony era, or from the new era? Forget the style thing for a moment, as much as I like the old one

[sage lark]

They are printed

[eternal knoll]

design change or no i'd definitely like to know whether we're firing 300 year old guns or new guns or a mix of the two

[light python]

I mean, like, we go into the depths of AI uplink and open an arms locker, that's new stuff, right, not colony era?

[red flicker]

U👏E👏S👏C👏

[light python]

Why are they covering the world in guns for us to use

[red flicker]

The UESC has been running the place since scavenging began, of course they have access to weapons and lockers to put them in man

[eternal knoll]

yea they dont even use those guns

[sage lark]

Why is there yellow tape on the walls

[queen kraken]

surplus 3D printer filament

[sage lark]

Or on ledges

[light python]

Like I said this is kind of fridge logic stuff but it bothers me

[sage lark]

Tough shit i guess

[eternal knoll]

don't bring a "who cares about the lore" attitude to the lore channel, lol

it would be nice for the guns to make sense

[sage lark]

Sometimes you have to realize its a game first

[light python]

It is a tall order for the guns to make sense.

[sage lark]

Who keeps restocking crates and lockers in Tarkov with guns and loot when they get looted the first time

[light python]

I mean, I'm pretty sure that's why the plot point about MIDA filling the marathon with arms caches happened in the first place.

[eternal knoll]

they could just come out and say that guns are pretty much exactly the same now as they were 300 years ago and i'd be like "that's dumb but 👍 "

[sage lark]

Why when I run a dungeon in wow the enemies respawn

[light python]

So that in the original Marathon we could just find guns and ammo around as necessary.

[sage lark]

Why does the compiler not die permanently when one team kills it

[queen kraken]

the magnum still uses the same calibre as the og marathon magnums so maybe

[light python]

And not have to answer any questions about why a colony ship security officer needs a flame thrower and a rocket launcher

[eternal knoll]

that's a worse question than "why are there guns in tarkov," which there is a pretty detailed answer to

[red flicker]

Dark Souls multiverse logic maybe? It's all "one run"?

[sage lark]

There is no logic to this since its a game is my point

[light python]

Right like, there's the thing where abstractly gameplay resets and the lore tries to be as diagetic as it can but it can't ever really out-diagetic replayability

[sage lark]

Not everything has to be in lore

[red flicker]

I got a Codex answer for that too
They said it was the "Most prepared project in human history"

[dreamy hawk]

You don’t known what you’ll run into on an alien planet, donyou?

[light python]

But aside from who is refilling the lockers, the hauler is full of arms lockers and they have guns in them. The Hauler is old. The guns are... freshly delivered?

[red flicker]

Y E S

UESC LIVES THERE BRO

[eternal knoll]

in a game with lots of logistical lore, about a war on an alien world, it'd be nice to have just a vague idea about where the guns came from. it's not some incidental question

[red flicker]

Oh idk guys, maybe the massive robotic military force inhibiting the area?

[dreamy hawk]

Either left behind or 3D printed. Caches are canonically UESC supplies were raiding. Hauler is harder to explain but things are being made in TC for the UESC.

[sage lark]

This but then they say “but they dont even use em”

[red flicker]

For the record I did not say that

[sage lark]

Its never ending

[eternal knoll]

i'll buy that it's the uesc, sure whateva

coulda been somethin way more interesting

with just a tidbit of writing

[red flicker]

...

[dreamy hawk]

Like? I’m just curious.

[red flicker]

I can't help you man it just sounds like your discontent

[eternal knoll]

well yknow, destiny 2 got pretty into the lore of various weapons manufacturers. there could be some specificity to what guns are MIDA guns, what guns are UESC guns, traxus guns, guns that are old and cheap vs guns that are new an expensive

guns that came over on the marathon, guns that came with orion's force, guns that are being delivered to the runners via FTL weapons shipments...

[red flicker]

Dropships roll in with new robot squads every 5 minutes if someone steps on a tree branch, and there's not one, but MULTIPLE event "profit opportunities" where you "intercept UESC supplies" and "Intercept Convoy"

But them restocking the gun lockers every once in a while is inconceivable to you?

[eternal knoll]

you're arguin with a strawman here. i didn't say that was inconceivable i said it's a missed opportunity for exactly the kind of lore this game enjoys having

[red flicker]

⬆️

[eternal knoll]

sure, let me revise that to "a vague idea that isn't just broad catch-all explanation that avoids specifics"

[red flicker]

You didn't say it was inconceivable, you just couldn't conceive that the big robot space army didn't just bring guns with them on their way in with their "Astronomical budget"
-Quote from mainline contracts

[eternal knoll]

of course they brought some guns over, yes. of course that accounts for a lot of the ones we find. but that's very simplistic

[sage lark]

I like how this inconsequential thing is where we have the most discourse

Arguably the most inconsequential thing

[red flicker]

So I'm not arguing with a strawman I'm arguing with a man who won't take a simple answer

[eternal knoll]

it didn't have to be a big conversation but you're making me defend why i find the question worth exploring?

[sage lark]

I just think its of the littlest worth in terms of lore

The weapons are what they are

Pure function

No flavor

[eternal knoll]

seems a shame to me, but OK

[red flicker]

Exactly! It didn't have to be a big conversation!
Traxus makes guns, Arachne makes bigger guns, UESC buys them and brings them. The end!

Hell you don't even need the Codex for that it's literally just the shops and upgrade trees

[sage lark]

Maybe runners make stashes

For next runs

[red flicker]

Reeeally don't know why I needed to explain that to anyone. Anyway I'm gonna go do something actually worthwhile

[dreamy hawk]

This is with anything, though, isn’t it? Everyone agrees until you get to the details, then it’s blood.

[sage lark]

Yeah fair enough