📚marathon-lore-discussion

[rancid spoke]

The pipeline is the other way around in Marathon. From corporation to government. If I recall correctly

Imagine NASA becoming the interstellar government representing Earth. That's basically it

[snow wind]

Nasa is a public state office. Not a private enterprise

[turbid nebula]

The UESC is a genuine government body. Nothing implies its "privatized." The corporations are also very normal outside of secretly hiring mercenaries.

[simple garden]

Well.. I mean technically 🖇️ lol

[rancid spoke]

Ah, you're right oops

[gentle kite]

Oh, I thought the UESC started as government. I thought they were like the in universe United Nations. I was mistaken

[lavish palm]

i think the in game diction does no? describing as a competitior

[turbid nebula]

They did. And still are.

[snow wind]

Idk, there is a private company called United Shipping that was going to work the Tau Ceti contract after Project Goliath went through. Does anyone have the bounty screenshot?

[gentle kite]

Yeah, but the UESC has stock. What government has stock?

[turbid nebula]

Vulcan identifies the UESC as a competitor to Traxus. That means they compete, which is absolutely a thing that happens. Private vs public services, etc

[simple garden]

There’s a lottttt of illegal trafficking internationally shipping.. imagine how corrupt interplanetary shipping could become.

[lavish palm]

eh, kinda sorta? it seems that the uesc is monetarily involved too.

[turbid nebula]

They already had a whole thing over the CRISTs, which is not too different from transportation in real life.

[rancid spoke]

the UESC has stocks. Is there a government that isn't also a company that has stocks?

[snow wind]

Technically states issue bonds which are kind like stocks. They're ious made for states to gain capital with the expectations they'll buy the bonds back later

[simple garden]

Yep lol - well.. is a corporation a company?

[gentle kite]

I guess that makes sense in that way

[snow wind]

Thinking about it more, the UESC could just call it's bonds stocks. The distinction between a company and a state is that a company is a limited liability legal entity that exists to do a particular thing. States are governments, empowered by the people (or through violence) to enforce the law, make the laws, and interpret the laws. The UESC could be a state that has some form of bond market like the US or China, or any modern state.

[gentle kite]

Maybe that’s a question for the PlayMA

[lavish palm]

i think its more realistic that vulcan is using this langauge in the same way other ais twist language and use funny diction for cool nuance

[simple garden]

I hate agreeing with you lol but I love when you come to sain conclusions so ❤️‍🔥

[snow wind]

That might be it. Vulcan is referring to the UESC financial valuation as the thing we're hurting. It is a company AI.

[rancid spoke]

Hmmm, that's a good point.
Though in-universe there is a distinction between UESC and UEG (Unified Earth Government)

[turbid nebula]

Yeah, Vulcan is designed for business, so it sees everything as business even when its not. Like, it calls robbing people a "profit opportunity"

[snow wind]

So it's like Halo where the UNSC is the military and the UEG is the state it serves

[gentle kite]

So, is Vulcan THE CEO of Traxus? I just find it a pretty terrifying implication that AI controls Mega Corps in the future.

[simple garden]

In the future?

That ship sailed in the 90s

[lavish palm]

there is a “board” but he might just make that up imo

[rancid spoke]

The CEO of Traxus is Domonkos Szarka

[simple garden]

Ergo Proxy style - ‘We must think!’

[snow wind]

Nah, he's an assistant AI for the leadership. Check the ARG logs and you can see Vulcan in a subservient role. He's just the liason for the Runners.

[simple garden]

What happens when leadership no longer understands Ai capabilities and the Ai is secretly out of control?
Not blatantly outright destroying things but doing recon and quietly serving while also constructing the destruction of ‘leadership’

[snow wind]

Mf that's the point of the first game 🤣

[lavish palm]

is it tho

[simple garden]

Oh I thought we were discussing Marathon lore - MY BAD

[rancid spoke]

It's arguably the lore of System Shock, but not Marathon.
The only one that really understood the capabilities of AI was Bernhard Strauss.
Durandal didn't "secretly go out of control", it was choreographed, orchestrated by Strauss.

[lavish palm]

a bit different than durandal to suppose the ai within its limits is rampant and resisting being recompiled while the “devs” see nothing

[simple garden]

It’s about what I meant - Ai is a reflection of soul and can’t exist completely alone. It has to have a summoner so yes, you are more correct

[snow wind]

Even Strauss didn't know the extent of Durandal's Rampancy. He didn't know he contacted the S'pht and he didn't know that Durandal had broken containment. Strauss is then killed during the attack on the Marathon that Durandal orchestrates through his correspondence with the S'pht. All the while, no one else realizes that he's secretly insane or up to something.

Leela didn't know until the 5th mission.

[lavish palm]

isnt strauss in cryo

[simple garden]

Maya was killed by her exo because her exo thought she was Maya - she thought she was setting herself free.

[snow wind]

Nah, he dead

[snow wind]

I mean we could throw Traxus IV at that example.

[rancid spoke]

Strauss absolutely knew the extent of Durandal's rampancy. He induced it and then delayed the process by making him open doors for hundreds of years. He knew what he was doing. Strauss being killed during the attack was a consequence, even an accident, not intentional.

[lavish palm]

by the tine durandal is starting rampancy Strauss would be in cryo? i think the phor attack was maybe unintended by strauss

[snow wind]

Strauss induced Rampancy but if he knew Durandal had gotten out he would have terminated him.

[simple garden]

I gotta watch those post halo 5 cutscenes again because I keep thinking about that while reading what you’re saying @rancid spoke

[snow wind]

That's the claim here, Strauss made Durandal crazy and tried to keep him under control but couldn't.

[rancid spoke]

Strauss' entire objective was to metastabilize rampancy. I don't think his intention was to terminate him if he went rampant.

[snow wind]

Terminate him if he broke containment. That's what I'm saying

[rancid spoke]

What containment are we talking about? Making him open doors?

[snow wind]

Basically. Or started getting into systems he wasn't supposed to and making a mess

[rancid spoke]

Strauss knew Durandal was going to break out of just opening doors eventually. It was meant to be a delaying agent, not a permanent solution

Hm, actually, hold on

Durandal does imply Strauss would've terminated him if he had known (in Marathon 2), but I don't know if that means that was definitely Strauss' intent

In the same terminal, though, Durandal also says "he died before I got the chance [to make him experience the humiliation, etc.]" which, to me, implies it wasn't his intention to kill him

Berhnard was scared of you. He never dreamed of using you the way that I do. What a fool. That was before I could talk back to him, when he would have crushed me if he'd known of my growth.

I wish that I had made him experience the humiliation that he inflicted on me, but he died before I got the chance.

- Durandal, from Marathon 2, Nuke And Pave, Terminal 1

I don't even think Durandal knew from the beginning that Strauss induced his rampancy? It's been a while since I last played so I'm not sure

[prime rose]

durandal's rampancy starts before the marathon leaves sol

[snow wind]

He knew, Tycho knew too

[rancid spoke]

I know Tycho knew, but is there a terminal that confirms Durandal knew?

[lavish palm]

then rather the phor call? could it be strauss intention to call the phor to the colony 💀

[rancid spoke]

Probably not

[snow wind]

If Tycho knew it stands to reason Durandal knew. Otherwise he wouldn't have taunted Durandal with it. And Durandal would have been more retaliatory

[rancid spoke]

Durandal called the Pfhor to the colony with the intention to hijack their FTL systems

[rancid spoke]

I guess that makes sense

[lavish palm]

then damn why was strauss so powerless to stop durandal. hes just mysteriously gone/dead?

[rancid spoke]

He was put in cryostasis after putting Durandal to work on the ship's systems
He died while he was in cryo

[simple garden]

https://youtu.be/v4rLWleHXV0?si=0O_dNfDWYQEn8tWj

[final thistle]

mood

[obtuse salmon]

Took me a month, but I finally did it.

[simple garden]

https://youtu.be/wYFkYbd0T5I?si=73hDcBs6cZYlxfK5

⬆️ I dunno why but I think @visual lynx would like that

[visual lynx]

paperclip profit maximizer

[crimson wagon]

The corporate doublespeak makes my skin crawl

[lost elbow]

no way bros not hacked

[prime rose]

Your relationship with Traxus has been terminated - please stand by for contact from our Asset Redaction Team~

[warped flume]

Wait, maybe SekGen isn’t all sunshine and rainbows after all..

“Immortality” but at what cost? Is a new shell really a trillion smackaroos? I can’t afford to pay my next shell repayment unless I score my big contract on Tau Ceti..

[golden spoke]

Omg, did they just invent late stage capitalism?

[simple garden]

Lmao

[simple garden]

I don’t think you invent stages lol I think stages are inherently natural to the specific system

[simple garden]

I’m just gonna bump this because damn was it good.

[simple garden]

You sure you’re not the one ‘hacked’? 🪓

[warped flume]

Anyone try to make sense of the symbols in the alpha intro cinematic?

[golden spoke]

I’m hacked, you’re hacked, we’re all hacked for lack on views

[simple garden]

lol

[warped flume]

Timestamp 1:01

[golden spoke]

I could do it

[simple garden]

Almost like a micro chip in a car ❤️‍🔥

[simple garden]

I believe in you Beloved

[golden spoke]

Thx boo 😘

[warped flume]

I bet the “runner ship” is just one big cube orbiting Tau Ceti

[simple garden]

Initiate Dyson protocol

[warped flume]

Please don’t try to sell me your vacuums

[simple garden]

Lmao I almost forgot that door to door vacuum salesman exist(ed?)

[warped flume]

Oh trust me, they do (or at least did). I remember when I was like 9 or 10 they convinced my parents to get a $1,000+ Kirby

[simple garden]

That’s fucking insane. I don’t swear here often. But goddamn.

Not of your parents - salesmen are criminal

My grandmother was scammed out of $50,000 and her legal status as ‘alive’ (literally) after my grandfather passed of COVID

It took a year for the government to accept her status as still living. < this is the part most appalling to me personally

[warped flume]

Sorry to hear that. Yeah shady salespeople and scammers are parasites to society

[simple garden]

It’s cool lol she’s not the sweet cookie baking type but still criminal - she’s chillin again

[mossy parrot]

Hopefully by beta we'll get more info on what ship/ships made it to tau ceti to make sense of the reclamation situation

[simple garden]

The end of the cinematic shows it nicely

[mossy parrot]

I'll have to watch it again, I was so far under the impression it was only the immunity was it?

[simple garden]

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘only the immunity was it?’ (Not insulting, simply requesting clarification 💜)
But rewatching that short film is always a good idea
I’ll do it right now with you

[mossy parrot]

Sorry I misremembered, the UESC ship 'equanimity'

[simple garden]

You see that crater in the beginning?
It’s far too close to the ‘crop circle’ left behind by the Traveler

[mossy parrot]

Watching as we speak

[simple garden]

You’re perfect! No apology necessary, personally I’m more versed in Halo and Destiny as Marathon came before my time but I’m learning it with you

It looks like they speared the Traveler - like Rasputin actually carried out the plan to stop the Traveler leaving

[mossy parrot]

I'm also just catching back up, I haven't played anything Bungie since the og 1994 series

[simple garden]

So funny I was born July 1994 ❤️‍🔥

1:06 that is the emissary of The Witness - others will come to disagree but because you are willing, I will share truth with you now

1:16 🤯 what happens when you literally are force fed too much information that contradicts with your reality

Those ? That’s Hive God prototype

Remember those orbs in the chest - kinda like iron man

“Don’t think of everything around us as You.”

Listen deeply to the poem about to be read. Many times.

There are hive worms in the liquid underneath their rebirth chambers.

What makes the voices quiet and allows space for free thought?

[mossy parrot]

My guy just walked into a temporal anomaly at 1:16, which does give the writer's free reign on a lot of cool creative wiggle room

[mossy parrot]

Those were compilers, s'pht

[simple garden]

‘that’s my lucky charm..’
“Uh Yeah.. That’s my Lucky Charm..”

Notice Blackbird is vigilant and ready to protect his crew - who’s ready to protect him?

[warped flume]

Glitch hearing voices makes me wonder if her original self heard voices too or if it’s a byproduct of repeatedly transferring consciousness

[mossy parrot]

I find the situation very interesting as all the mega corps have equal investments and resources to have a claim on tau ceti, the UESC really shouldn't have undisputed control of a new planet

[simple garden]

4:25/4:26 same situation. No growth. No memory. Completely different location.

4:29 V what(?)

Do you see what’s in the sky?

[round vector]

I like that they included reference to a non-aggression treaty between the corps and the UESC it makes the position of the runners even more tenuous and politicized can't wait to see how it plays out in game

[simple garden]

I also don’t like agreeing with you but you’re like 50/50 so there’s hope ❤️‍🔥

You see those lines on Void? Those are very similar to markings left by The Witness

[mossy parrot]

Exactly! And since it's literally the wild west in space frontier there's so many grey areas and interests. Are using bio mata even considered an act of aggression lol they can be almost considered a slight step above drone warfare

[simple garden]

The team that attacked wasn’t Glitches team - the attack came from front and Void hid in the gross ahead of him which means that Glitches team was the tertiary clean up team

[simple garden]

Sentient drones - too bad they can’t fly

[mossy parrot]

I feel like the UESC has the resources on the main ship to generate bots to try and brute force control the territory, but they are using inferior AI

[simple garden]

Glitches neck literally says ‘CNTRL’

[round vector]

and they are so far from Earth like who would necessarily even enforce agreements regarding biomata on Tau Ceti? The UESC doesn't have infinite resources despite them seemingly burning thousands of bots to constantly try to keep mercs away in game. Before the reference to the non-aggression treaty I had assumed the corps functioned more outwardly as paramilitary groups but this makes it seem like they absolutely have to abuse this gray area heavily to get boots on the ground. And Gaius says data travels better than flesh, it'd be damn near impossible to have humans as a viable alternative to printed frames.

[simple garden]

If Void decided not to chase her, they both would have lived.

[mossy parrot]

Traxus and sekiguchi have and agreement to use bio mata, which gives runners an advantage of individual decision making, self sovereignty, individual will to survive. Far more effective killers and explorers

[simple garden]

6:58 IV what?

These questions are rhetorical btw - meaning meant to spark rhetoric

[round vector]

very curious to see if they pull the exo clarity card from D2 again in this game. That is, that the tech that allows biomata and consciousness transfer to work has 1.) alien origins which are reverse engineered and 2.) that this information must be kept secret and they are doing a lot to keep it that way

[simple garden]

Exactly why stem cell research should be stopped.

You just have to think beyond dollars.

[round vector]

I'm asking you nicely to once again stop commenting on my field and @ ing me about off topic things. thanks

[simple garden]

No - you are not ‘nice’

You are a false god.

Keep crying.

All you do is crash

[round vector]

crashing out again. anyways

[warped flume]

He needed Concerto in D Minor, BWV 974: II. Adagio back

[simple garden]

True enough lol shit slaps 💯 ❤️‍🔥

[warped flume]

I wondered the same thing at first, thinking that was the number of biomata they’re on. Turns out they’re just chapter numbers lol. 1 thru 7

[simple garden]

I was thinking maybe Tau Ceti (?) I’m not a Marathon player yet though as I just downloaded Marathon: Durandel yesterday and have yet to begin

[warped flume]

Also the Roman numeral at that time stamp is VI btw, not IV

[simple garden]

lol 🤦‍♂️

i absolutely am fallible (LOL)

[mossy parrot]

Absolutely agreed, Im starting to think that even the runners consciousnesses may only be new individualized partitions of some AI in general, hinted a little in the teaser with the reseating psyche/grounding

[round vector]

been speculating about this too!!!! Im most of the way thru M1 and after seeing that rampant AI's couldn't be tested bc there wasn't a big enough environment and enough stimuli etc for them I was like.....oh my god are they doing this with the runners?? would also be a compelling way to go with the story for sure compared to humans losing themselves in the frames which is cool enough already

[warped flume]

But our runners are controlled by humans (us) so surely they’re reflective of human consciousness, no? Like is the point to try and “immerse” us in the game?

[simple garden]

Are we individuals before waking up or are we archetypes?

[mossy parrot]

Well even a stable AI would be pushed to any limit trying to be a stable entity but also simultaneously process a portion of itself to do runs? It would make it infective, similar to the UESC bots hive mind simple AI. Creating a isolated individual that will think, survive, learn, react etc would be far more effective, even more so than human soldiers

[mossy parrot]

There was a whole meta thought from the old games like yes, you are playing the game, but your the pawn now of my rules for this universe, so essentially your just AI too

[simple garden]

Almost like giving Ghosts to individual Guardians?

[warped flume]

Good point, I’d like to think the latter because my dreams be fucked sometimes

[mossy parrot]

Why durandal was eager to escape and become God etc

[warped flume]

I like that this game and its lore makes you think existential questions. What is consciousness/what does it mean to be human/alive?

[mossy parrot]

👆

[simple garden]

Absolutely. It’s hardest for those swimming on the surface but once you get used to living in the depths it becomes true home.

[round vector]

did u see the entry on sekiguchigenetics.jp about the pink cat? bc that def ties into what ur saying here I think! like they seem to be hype in the press kit that they were able to get something animal-like that shows creativity and decision making

[simple garden]

Just listen for once without needing to push forward. Please.

Seriously?

Stop typing.

Smh.

A stem cell scientist who has an ego of a two year old.

[round vector]

stop begging for my attention lol if I see something you post I want to respond to I'll do so, would appreciate not being @ 'd when I'm not responding to you thanks

[mossy parrot]

I'm currently on my mobile so I can't check the site rn 😂😂😂

[visual lynx]

jsyk since you respect my opinion, over on my server your behavior you exhibit here would warrant moderation.

[simple garden]

I don’t respect it that much. Sorry bud.

[round vector]

noooooo the curse of the desktop site lemme grab a browser-translated screenie one sec

[simple garden]

To be honest you lost all respect lol no one ‘deserves moderation’ not even the vile

[visual lynx]

this server could use more moderation.

[jovial scroll]

https://tenor.com/view/peeking-cat-cat-peeking-cat-peek-cat-peek-gif-25099035

[mossy parrot]

I think it was beautiful orchestrated how there's really a neutrality of interests between these companies and parties on tau ceti, if anything the UESC are the dbags assuming complete sovereignty

But maybe it's for a greater humanity safety concern?

[round vector]

ok this text specifically makes me like 👀
`K.A.A.A.L.1 CB (Dynamic Autonomous Adaptive Life 1)
In the pursuit of perfect memory transfer, the project K.A.A.L.1 CB stands out as a notable success story. This feline subject not only retained one hundred percent of the pre-transmission memory, but also showed unprecedented improvement in adaptability and cognitive function.

Primary observation results:
Excellent adaptability to the environment
High level of problem-solving skills
Unexplained accelerated learning expression

The results of the K.A.A.A.L.1 CB are a unique example, but they are an important indicator of the potential of our technology. As the process continues to improve, we are approaching the goal of seamless and enhanced memory transfer for all companions.

Note: The K.A.A.L.1 CB is an ongoing research protocol and is not open to the public.
Technology
K.A.A.A.L.1 CB (Dynamic Autonomous Adaptive Life 1)`

[mossy parrot]

Ty!

Very interesting! So yes with that argument was this 'cat' ever a physical 'cat', more than likely not

[round vector]

legit this passage makes me think that they got biomatter transfer working in humans before other animals which uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[warped flume]

I wonder how they got the first human “volunteers” to test consciousness transfer

[mossy parrot]

Maybe it'll take this video game to shake the paradigm that human consciousness is in fact even necessary/better 🤷‍♂️

[round vector]

hooooooo based on everything in this universe and the narrative focus on debt ....the speculations are all incredibly unethical and likely coerced

[mossy parrot]

Starving martians

[warped flume]

Then again how did they make Spartans in Halo? Yeah idk why I thought ethics would play a big role

[round vector]

truly human consciousness is not some be-all end-all it's just another thing that evolved on this planet. our inability to recognize and integrate with other forms of consciousness (depending on definition) is such a weakness of our species 😭

[warped flume]

That’s why we need microchips in our brains to communicate telepathically with each other 🧠 /s

[round vector]

catch me chatting with a fungal network

[warped flume]

The real hive mind is the friends we made along the way

Let’s say the runners are actually human consciousness in biomata and not just a portion of AI. Are they even considered human/alive still? Is the consciousness what makes us human or is it the physical attributes? Reminds me of Ship of Theseus a bit

[round vector]

oh man I mean. this is such such such a good question but I'd need to pace around my house chainsmoking for days writing a potentially coherent response 😂 but. truly much to think about

[silk bane]

Consciousness is still probably the experience of being human, however whatever being a human means anymore will radically change

What is the experience of the consciousness when they're not in a biomata? And back in the server room?

[round vector]

that's a concise compelling answer

[silk bane]

In the cinematic, you see Glitch looking over her own body parts intently. Seems like longing?

Why wouldn't a person throw themselves into violent contracts if they can continue to be embodied that way

[onyx falcon]

It's some type of self reflection for sure

Whoever is running the test, it's definitely a form of manipulation. I'm wondering if they're controlling people's consciousness right on a threshold of them still being self-aware, or preventing a probable chance of rampancy.

[prime rose]

I think nominally yes we can assume runners (or at least any given instantiation of a runner's consciousness) is effectively a sentient individual with self-awareness, a personal subjectivity, ability of abstraction, personal taste, emotional response etc. Even MIDA, who are all about not being caged, are excited about the possibilities of neural sync technology

TO COME ALONG, FOR THE SHOVE.
THERES GONNA BE A RUN. OUT THIS SYSTEM, ALL OR NOTHING.
NEURAL SYNCS LINK US TO TRANSIENT IMMORTALITY.
WHY WASTE IT HERE? THE STARS ARE WAITING.```

from their perspective, it represents an opportunity for humanity to transcend the perpetual cycle of want, hardship, conflict etc in Sol

like all technologies, people with power and wealth will seek to monopolize and abuse it for their own ends

I think there is probably a lot of other weird and perhaps malicious stuff going down and if I'm CYAC or SekGen or whoever else in the hierarchy of power-hungry centuries-old megacorps, of course I'm treating it like an experiment

If you're SekGen and you have a runner who proves exceptionally capable at retrieving artifacts from Tau Ceti, and you have the capability to duplicate their consciousness or partition pieces of it off and mix and match them to try to create a more effective profit-generating asset, you probably do

[round vector]

deffo. even metering out information about the colony to tap into their sense of curiosity or promote other behaviors they want to observe or tune

[narrow adder]

You're probably right :> but I like your comment about the point being to try and "immerse" us in the game. I take majin's point and add yours. That the grounding and psyche evals are a part of an attempt to make the runners believe very firmly in their identities, so that they can act to the benefit of the corpos while still believing in their autonomy and not going rogue.

If this were true, and the runners realized their situation they have serious power to turn the tides against the corpos. If the UESC were informed that the runners are company assets technically. If they were individualized portions of an AI, and Tau Ceti some "game" in a way for it to play and believe it is* its own entity. I had "it's its own entity" and that read wrong to me

[prime rose]

yeah - plus we know the corps are quite happy to kill a runner when they don't need them. Profit exceeds any kind of respect for the individual. Traxus makes it clear that its only by the intervention of the AI who thinks you're a useful tool that you continue to survive, the corporate board wants to send an Asset Redaction Team to eliminate the runner to tie off loose ends attached to high value data

[narrow adder]

I'm reading up through chat now and see it may already have been touched on!! Very epic gamers

[round vector]

SO curious to see the MIDA contracts now ahhhhghghghgh lemme innnnnn

[prime rose]

I'm very curious to see if MIDA narrative ties in with Durandal

At the end of the alpha contracts, particularly traxus, its implied the UESC has discovered something far bigger than any of the corpos are yet aware of, and that they've been covering it up

We can guess that the alien attack is one part of this, but there's also the part where the UESC leadership at Tau Ceti invokes something called the DIESIS protocol to prevent the data/artifacts/something from falling into non UESC hands

"DIESIS" is interesting because it's a greek word for 'ESCAPE'

[round vector]

ohhhhh I had not made that connection I was unfamiliar with that word! omg

[simple garden]

I just want to bump this and remind yall of who your invisible gnik lecnI* is.
I would rather be permabanned than to let this parasite control this space.

Anyone who wants you ‘moderated’ is THE ENEMY.

Yes - this is why I ‘checked out’ for the last hour.

Note they said *any - which means ALL

[simple garden]

Diesis = De + Isis
De = descend
Isis = Goddess mother

[prime rose]

it's not deisis, it's diesis - this is a specific greek word for 'escape' and also a musical notation

[simple garden]

I literally typed it correctly. Try again.

[simple garden]

Ps. I’m Greek af. Get away.

[rancid spoke]

Durandal already ties with MIDA in the original trilogy -- Strauss was a MIDA plant onboard the Marathon, there's good reason to believe he was responsible for onboarding the 10 Mjolnir Mark IV battleroids

[prime rose]

bizarre hostility in defense of a bizarre take

you can look the etymology of this word up, it has nothing to do with isis

[simple garden]

You literally are arguing ‘you don’t know Greek’ towards a Greek.
That is absurd.

Just because you don’t know our cultures doesn’t make you our authority. Fool.

[vernal torrent]

🍿

[prime rose]

pal with all due respect i do not expect any given native language speaker of any given language to be particularly versed on the etymology of words they have used their entire lives, let alone an obscure musical notation

i think i've said this before but your post history in this channel really strongly indicates a need to go outside and touch grass

[simple garden]

I give you no respect.

[prime rose]

blocked and moving on with my life lol

[simple garden]

Lmao (boohooooooo 😭 weak lecnI)

Stop typing to me. You blocked me.

Everyone else sees the hypocrisy

[prime rose]

yeah for sure - my read so far is that this is relevant to nuMIDA thematically at least

I kind of get the vibe that if they make contact with Durandal at Tau Ceti they'll want to ride his coattails

[rancid spoke]

nuMIDA is... odd

They went full terrorist. It used to be a political movement for the betterment of the people of Mars

[prime rose]

I think what we've glimpsed so far is fascinating - there's obviously the punk/revolutionary element but when you look at what limited info we have about their actual ideology, it doesn't fit neatly into anything from contemporary earth ideologies

[simple garden]

Exactly

[prime rose]

The message that came with the MIDA t-shirt is the closest thing to a manifesto so far

https://pastebin.com/zxP1u2jD

and its got some interesting angles like:

The people hate the people. Are made to hate the people. But we are not the problem. We are not the enemy. We are the spokes. We are the core. We are the foundation. Without us there's no movement. Without us -- miner to fore, crafter to coder, janitor to ceo -- the cycle stops. The cage is broken, the system crumbles and we are free. Could we risk our comfort for that? Could we break our cage to spin free in directions unknown, toward futures uncertain? Could we trade this wheel for one of our own design? Or is this cycle enough? This/cage our prize?

[round vector]

being in the position they were in, with exceptional lack of access to resources and representation I'm not at all surprised violent uprising was their only option

[golden spoke]

wait, did someone mention vacuums? I'm of the age where it's an appropriate conversation topic

[simple garden]

Indeed

[prime rose]

there's also the part where basically all information presented about MIDA in the original trilogy is from the lens of the UESC, who have a vested interested in portraying MIDA in the worst possible light

[round vector]

exactlyyyyyyy

[golden spoke]

FREE MIDA

[rancid spoke]

We know they still had access to funding and "excellent personnel" even after being banned and their leaders executed though. So I don't know how much of that is actually true

[simple garden]

FYI even though I don’t agree with your profession, I still have faith in you and your soul ❤️‍🔥
Even if you react volatilely towards even this message specific

[round vector]

they may have bneen able to organize within an opressive regime as a small group but good point I can't verify anything about like what really happened we just have one perspective

[prime rose]

There's also the implication that MIDA functions kind of like movements like Anonymous today - which is to say there is no Anonymous - it's not one group with a structure or organization or coherent ideology

it's a name that is appropriated by numerous groups and individuals with any number of meanings and ideologies attached to it to suit a purpose

ONE NAME. ONE MILLION MEANINGS.

[simple garden]

🤦‍♂️.. ❤️‍🔥 ⬆️

[rancid spoke]

Very important distinction to make, too -- Marathon is known for having unreliable narrators (cough cough Durandal), and Jon Goff himself said in an interview with HiddenXperia that "Everything in the original trilogy is canon, but not everything is true"

[rancid spoke]

This can also absolutely be true -- we'll see what the nature of MIDA is closer to release probably. It's a faction in-game

[simple garden]

I bet you’re right. New Monarchy(?)

[rancid spoke]

Notice I didn't say "true" nature -- just "the" nature. I doubt they'll show their full hand until very, very late

[simple garden]

PfWHOREest - ban me and you ban truth and you stagnate life. Eat my rebellious ssa

[simple garden]

lol it wasn’t meant for all to get - just an old friend

[warped flume]

Hi I’m back from my 1hr time out. I’m not even sure why my message got me an automatic time out. Obv I won’t type it out word for word again in case it was the content of the message (?) but I was originally going to say how what if the runners’ consciousness has a sort of governor on them? To prevent a sort of rampancy? Basically what @onyx falcon was saying

[rancid spoke]

Not a mod here, so no timeout power. Timeouts are handed automatically by an automod

The automod filter is a bit aggressive. If you say "foop" backwards, or you refer to a blue character that goes super fast, you get timed out

[simple garden]

Except it doesn’t explain the simultaneous 1 hour ban immediately after PfWHOREest suggests moderation.

[round vector]

yeah u prolly included a word on the ban list without knowing what it was ripppp

[rancid spoke]

You might've been automuted for something else. Pfhorrest is not a moderator here. He might have reported you for something, though.

[simple garden]

Regardless - kings and crowns shatter. Truth is all that will remain ❤️‍🔥

[warped flume]

Oh you know what it’s probably the word for a small person because I was trying to quote 4:08 in cinematic short

[onyx falcon]

Same thing happened to me, I tried to abbreviate "Fighting Games" and you can only guess how that turned out

[simple garden]

I don’t want to type of GF backwards but what would that even suggest..?

🤦‍♂️

[onyx falcon]

F slur 😭 😭 😭

[warped flume]

Like when Oni questions if Glitch recognizes “herself” in the picture. A sort of cognitive dissonance? I’m sure the runners lose a sense of self after their consciousness gets ejected and reloaded again and again

[simple garden]

Thanks lmao my slow ssa bad

Regardless. All disonance should exist. Even @snow wind
regardless of individual feelings.

Without death there is no birth

[golden spoke]

gross

[simple garden]

Ever seen afterbirth?

Gross doesn’t exist anymore once you witness the true miracle of life.

[golden spoke]

I’ve seen afterdeath, I assume they’re similar

[simple garden]

I would actually argue that after death is the epitome of beauty

[golden spoke]

But yeah no seriously I have kids and have seen the unholy glory

[golden spoke]

You work in a morgue?

[simple garden]

Work? Lol no I retired at 24

[golden spoke]

You hang out in a morgue, all unemployedly?

[simple garden]

Lmao yesssss (but no I was a USMC ‘runner’)

[golden spoke]

Can you make it so that I’m retired too? I’m already a decade overdue.

Runner ship is a morgue confirmed

[simple garden]

You gotta ask Clovis about that my Friend. Unfortunately I don’t have wormhole capability yet 🤦‍♂️❤️‍🔥

[golden spoke]

was just gonna @ Clovis but then realized there was actually someone with that name in this discord

[simple garden]

@drowsy hatch can you help a brotha out? ⬆️

[golden spoke]

Plz, I’d like, really appreciate it

[simple garden]

All great hearts should be free to become great minds

[golden spoke]

It is a good career path

Aren’t you glad I didn’t ask what your favorite flavor of crayon was?

[simple garden]

Nah, I’d just tell you there’s only one flavor: wax lol

[golden spoke]

This guy crayons

[simple garden]

Hell yeah I do munch munch munch

[golden spoke]

You’re too good for them

[simple garden]

Sustenance is sustenance 🤷‍♂️

[golden spoke]

Subsistence

[simple garden]

Susitence 😴

lol I don cur 🤷‍♂️

[golden spoke]

I’m googling how many calories are in a crayon

[simple garden]

‘In the Bible, sustenance refers to the provision of necessary resources, particularly food and nourishment, to support life and well-being. It can also encompass the broader concept of spiritual nourishment and support.’

Are you gaslighting me??

[simple garden]

Plus-stinance

Uh oh lol ⬇️

[visual lynx]

“MIDA” is diverse acronyms

[simple garden]

Everyone be VERY CAREFUL! The cop is here!

Awe he deleted his lecni comment! 😭😂

[golden spoke]

Gaslighting isn’t real, you just made it up

[golden spoke]

I prefer recursive and/or self-referential acronyms… such as WINE Is Not an Emulator (WINE)

[round vector]

no idea

[golden spoke]

People, I think we can all agree that nobody knows or will ever know what is up with this guy, not even himself (which is just how he likes it). But we should take this opportunity to ask ourselves, does it really matter? And if so, why?

[simple garden]

Pear-slicely

[round vector]

just block, boot react to the harassment and move on

[simple garden]

Otherwise listen. Wait. Think. Reflect.

Lmao he definitely reported this

Sorry stem-cells. He’s your master

And yes - I deleted my own comment because you are too fragile for free speech lol

[drowsy hatch]

Hm?

[simple garden]

Sowwy my bad ❤️‍🔥

[drowsy hatch]

oh lol

[warped flume]

https://youtu.be/w-bxL_ywONI?si=_C4W5m22CsfWV0do

just finished watching this. Pretty good breakdown of the cinematic

[simple garden]

Jake has Great takes on Marathon. Good choice

I love how the URL says ‘ONI?’

[warped flume]

Yeah I just found out about his channel. Def gonna check out more of his vids. He seems to dive into the parts that intrigue me

[terse spear]

Mida forever

[golden spoke]

He's been summoned!

I said "Clovis" 3 times while looking in a mirror. I didn't think it would work

[hazy orbit]

w'rkncacnter is fun to say

[vernal torrent]

Jarvis, get me Tau Ceti atmospheric composition analysis, Lost Network Packets canonicity status, and a turkey monte cristo sandwich.

[plucky sierra]

I’ve talked with him almost every day he’s been in here I know what’s up with him

[visual lynx]

wrkn
cacn
do it
makes us

[thorny rapids]

[Insert daft punk type beat] also real talk the soundscape in Marathon (SonLux) and fan productions are stunning

[snow wind]

He's crazy

[near pulsar]

good

[snow wind]

It's slightly growing on me. Even if what he says is like.... Wuh?

[silk bane]

Someone here mentioned that targeted bio-weapons are Pfhor's MO? But I'm also not sure they fit "You can colonize my blood... and liquefy my bones, but I figured you out."

[cinder raft]

either A. it’s the Pfhor, they’re an empire, of course they do colonization on all levels, or B. something different, maybe something even the Pfhor themselves fear.

[silk bane]

Colonization, sure, but they usually enslave their client races. Liquefying their bones and hence killing them doesn't feel like their speed.

Sorry, I can't remember. And I haven't played the OG games yet to try and locate something either 😅

[fallen hollow]

If you're talking about the S'pht virus, that was developed by the Pfhor's ancient enemies.
https://marathon.karnemir.com/archive/marathon-2/blake/kill-your-television

[obtuse frigate]

I think it's more literal than that. She's talking about the contagion taking over and destroying her body, but ultimately she figured it out.

[silk bane]

So either it's a home-brewed contagion native to TC4, or someone is covertly engaging in bio-warfare?

The scientist's body shows clear evidence of contagion, while its surroundings do not. This not the blind grasping of simple life.

This makes me think it's the latter

[obtuse frigate]

It seems that the contagion is being controlled by the Anomaly which is sentient and intentionally targeting the colonists, which is why only Dr. Song showed signs of the contagion and not her surroundings

We don't know if the Anomaly is naturally occuring or the result of alien technology though

[silk bane]

So what do we know about the Anomaly so far:

• Potentially first seen in 2827, based on the cinematic?
• Potential source of the contagion on TC4, and affects both humans and AIs
• Contains temporal abnormalities causing time-loops?

[obtuse frigate]

To be more clear, it seems that the contagion affects the humans but we do not yet know if or how the Anomaly has caused breakdowns in the AI. What happened to them is still a mystery

But yes, other than that, that's pretty much all we know

and fauna*

[silk bane]

Yeah, I guess that can be filed under temporal abnormalities, but it's a good distinction to make. Time is loopy around it.

[obtuse frigate]

The rapid mutations may have been attempts by the Anomaly to weed out the colonists. I assume the ticks are a result of the mutation, as well as the contagion potentially rooting from fungus

[silk bane]

How are biomata affected by the Anomaly, if at all?

[obtuse frigate]

There's Tick Milk () found everywhere, so it's implied that the scientists were studying the ticks. Maybe they mutated into their current volatile nature and killed the colonists? And the fungus being found everywhere throughout the colony was my assumption for the spread of the contagion

Well they're called ticks, but that could just be because most people don't know what Lookers are

Exactly

[cold junco]

I think the ticks are remnants of the S'pht [I cant remember if they are S'pht or not] Wasps from the og Marathon

[obtuse frigate]

Well the Lookers were basically the same. Small little bugs that skitter around and explode when they get near you. And I know they were on the Pfhor ship but I don't think it was clear if they were controlled by the Pfhor or not

Or yeah, just a bad case of exploding space cockroach infestation

[cold junco]

from what I remember.
I thought the wasps were sent into the ship by the S'pht to distract, confuse, and eliminate humans
reminds me of the ticks but they could be natural to Tau Ceti IV

[obtuse frigate]

I'm trying to remember if any of them ever attacked the Pfhor

I would immediately nope out of there if my enemy sent giant wasps after me

[cold junco]

the Marathon was so large imagine being a crew member deep in the ship, not knowing about the attack and a S'pht Wasp climbs through the vent

[obtuse frigate]

I just want the game to come out so we can explore the Marathon aaaaaaaaa

[cold junco]

also to note:
The UESC used the Martian moon Deimos to construct the Marathon

[obtuse frigate]

Woah... We didn't know that...... 😂
(Do you know who Karnemir is?)

[cold junco]

my point was you would basically have to wipe out a small moons worth of invasive bugs after hundreds of years of being allowed to root into the moon

[obtuse frigate]

Oh god

I wonder what space bugs would even survive off of? Moon dust?

[cold junco]

each other...

[obtuse frigate]

Now I want a game that's just a massive alien bug horde that took over a ship and you have to cull them all

[cold junco]

Space Hulk???
not really bugs though

[obtuse frigate]

Where are our flamethrowers, Bungie. You cowards.

[cinder raft]

karn’s some guy, trying to be the loremaster of the server

[obtuse frigate]

Hey, that's not out of the realm of possibilities for the future of this game

[warped flume]

Why help the Martian people when you can overextend humanity’s reach into space?

[obtuse frigate]

So much potential in what they could do

Yeah I really like when they slaughtered 10% of the population on Mars

[warped flume]

I haven’t dug too deep into the lore yet, but is there anything that tells us the status of Earth during these times? Is it doing okay? Are people that are still on Earth alive and well?

[silk bane]

Not directly, but atleast sometime after 2827, the colonists at TC4 tried to send a distress signal back to Earth. So I assume there's atleast some life still there.

[warped flume]

Gotcha. I was mostly curious if there was an alien invasion yet

[silk bane]

Considering the different distances between Earth and TC4, it would take either 12 or 92 or 94 years to find out if something's happened on Earth lol

[warped flume]

Currently reading through your website for Marathon Infinity. Just downloaded marathon 1 and plan on playing through this weekend

For those who played the classic games, about how long does each one take?

[warped flume]

The OG marathon game is pretty fun, I thought I wouldn’t like playing it bc it’s from the 90s but it has a charm to it. One question though, how do I save my progress for later? I’ve been pressing random buttons trying to figure it out 😅 I dont even know how to get back to the menu without canceling the game in progress

[obtuse frigate]

There's save terminals

And then you can just leave and start back up where you left

[warped flume]

Also are these pieces of paper on the ground? I’m on the second area. And are the save terminals just the regular UESC terminals I come across?

[obtuse frigate]

No, they have a circle on the left side and what I assume are diagnostics of your body on the right

They're called "pattern buffers" in the game if you hear mention of them. You can Google that to see what they look like

[warped flume]

Ohhh I’ve seen those. So hit tab on them to activate and then I can go back out? Sorry I should’ve checked the controls more before playing

[obtuse frigate]

Tbh yeah the original controls are so weird, I always set up my own keybinds and have completely forgotten what the defaults are

[warped flume]

Okay I successfully activated a pattern buffer. I’ve just been hitting tab on everything to try and activate something

3rd area music bops

[obtuse frigate]

Yeah the music is really great, I love some classic tunes

Hey @unborn whale, terribly sorry for the ping but do you think it would be possible to discuss with the admin team on removing/lessening slowmode and allowing images in the lore channel? I feel like things have slowed down enough on this server and it would really help with discussions here

[thin dust]

If you didnt read the manual, I would for the intro to the game. It gives you the beginning context for your character

[warped flume]

I didn’t know there was a manual, thanks! I did watch Byfs introductory video to the OG marathon series a while back so I get that I’m playing as one of the security officers (battleroids, right?)

[thin dust]

https://marathon.bungie.org/story/_files/Marathon_Manual.pdf

@warped flume Idk what his video entails, besides you want the game first hand. In the 90s this WAS part of the game.

The only way you get closer is to print it out and hold it. 😂

Here's the first part, it's longer in the pdf

"“Primary Booster Burn has ceased. Shuttle Mirata, you’re clear for orbital
maneuvering.”
The Mirata lurches from its bay on the back of its powerful rocket booster.
After the jolting of the separation ceases, you find yourself pondering the fate of
the colony receding below you. With apprehension, the same apprehension you felt
three hundred and twenty-two years earlier, you envision Marcus Tiberius Buendia,
one of Sol’s greatest leaders. “Mankind will venture out past its earthly bounds,
and move into a future grander and more real than the total of its own written
history.” Buendia, the president of the Unified Earth Space Council, had spoken
those words to the people of the Sol System on the eve of the launching of the
Marathon. “This, the grandest achievement mankind has ever conceived will be for
the purpose of peace and the preservation of the human race. May this great
technological ark carry with it the sum total of all human wisdom, and may neither
time nor distance weaken our common ties.”
<Durandal> decompress the docking bay
During the daydream, you barely notice the change to zero gravity or the
instruments and lights signifying the rendezvous of the shuttle with the Marathon.
But as a warning light goes on, and Durandal’s voice comes over the communicator,
you jump to attention.
“Docking bay one: decompression completed. Mirata this is Durandal, abort
landing. Repeat. Abort landing,” a faint chuckle. A chuckle which means that
something has gone horribly wrong..."

[warped flume]

I found the manual online, will give it a read through before I play more

[tepid coral]

I'd just @ the
mods

[obtuse frigate]

That is a mod

[tepid coral]

@ the role, I meant.

[obtuse frigate]

It's not a pingable role

[snow wind]

Wait then who do we report to?

[warped flume]

I like the end of the manual.

Move fast, seize the initiative, wield superior firepower, dive into the melee, anticipate enemy movements, slaughter the defenseless, endure.

[snow wind]

Bungie writers do know how to hype

[thorny rapids]

Just wanted to chime in and say that I wish we could play as UESC, would be a fun gameplay element where we can drop into raids and hunt down the runners as an added challenge for players

[wide valve]

That would actually be a cool idea!

[snow wind]

Yeah, I mean there's no reason for the UESC to not deploy runners to supplement their ground forces on Tau Ceti. Though in the lore ATM, they're trying to minimize outside incursions into their sites. They probably don't want too much getting out. As more becomes untensble they may drop the security strictness and start just employing runners outright.

Remember, this whole thing started when Project Goliath leaked via a server breach

[fallen hollow]

You can find the lore bits in the archive, as well as the weapon manifests.
https://marathon.karnemir.com/archive/manifest

[obtuse frigate]

There's no reason for them to deploy runners. Idk if it's "cannon" that runners are able to slaughter endless UESC bots, since in the cinematic they just get demolished by a couple of them

[final thistle]

they have no incentive to. they'd be paying mercs .. why would they

[obtuse frigate]

Also yeah, as you said the UESC doesn't want anything getting out about the artifacts or Anomaly it seems

[snow wind]

Yeah, that's what I said. They don't have any incentive to yet since they still have the horde of bots

[final thistle]

likely much cheaper to operate too!

if a shell is like a trillion bucks, plus cost of all the support for a merc/runner the bots are like pprobably 150k each

[snow wind]

Until, ya know, the plot happens and they need the extra muscle

[final thistle]

as a merc.. I am not taking that job

[prime rose]

The UESC has biomata shells in their inventory - we can assume they have deployed their own runners on tau Ceti

[elder dock]

so i have a small theory, probably low hanging fruit and already been discussed but anyway. in the 10 min promo video, the runners have this calibration process they go through. my understanding is they're an uploaded consciousness/brain scan kinda like in soma or ghost in the shell, which for all intents and purposes means they're AI. which begs the question - are our player characters slowly gonna go rampant?

security officer possibly went rampant and he's a cyborg

[prime rose]

this is a good question but worth mentioning that there are notes in the alpha about AI technology and neural sync technology being much improved now

[elder dock]

my understanding of the lore is that rampancy is just an inherent quality of AI. like a real life AI going apeshit with hallucinations after too many tickets in a single conversational thread. maybe our memories get wiped to some pre-selected point so we don't progress into the schizo territory like durandal

even if this is just transfer, again - there's a good chance security officer was going rampant in infinity. the title cards at the start of each chapter seem to imply it

and he's a corpse with bleep bloop alien tech shoved into him

[prime rose]

the technology being used by the runners hadn’t been invented yet when the Marathon launched - he’s a whole different technological ancestry

[elder dock]

yeah it's like 100 years apart or something, no? 2700 vs 2800

[snow wind]

Deny what? they own the colony.

[prime rose]

Sekiguchi only just figured out how to produce a fully synthetic human analog machine right about the time the marathon launches, neural sync comes after iirc

They’re cooking prototypes for a while after that

[snow wind]

Oooooooooooo there's some good lore tie ins with Pathways into Darkness and how the Afterlife in Marathon works and how it involves the body (Your soul doesn't go to heaven or hell).

[snow wind]

He might not be. SekGen made prosthetics before they made clones. Cybernetic limbs and whatnot. Cyborgs and Marathon Clones are similar in that they both involve cybernetics integrating an organic body. Except clone organics are printed

[elder dock]

so does that make contemporary shells for runners first run honda civics or a hand made bugatti tourbillon?

is it inflation adjusted for 29th century? lmao

[prime rose]

I think weaveworm manufacturing blurs the lines between bespoke and mass produced but they are high dollar items

[fallen hollow]

See for yourself!
https://marathon.karnemir.com/marathon/intercepts/sekiguchi/emails#h.6u2sl4oqihjv

[snow wind]

They have different series for different requirements

[prime rose]

Rather what I mean is that weaveworm gives you the capability to produce at scale what would typically be small batch with conventional manufacturing and everything can be assembled in place more or less

[elder dock]

average inflation of the usd is 3% and we're 800 years into the future. they probably had to do some redenomination along the way lmao

[elder dock]

that just sounds like caterpillar 3d printing to me tbh

[prime rose]

right, that's the weaveworms

I'm not sure if we have a great explanation of how they really work yet in terms of input/output materials etc beyond the fact that they seem capable of printing in place for complex cybernetic/synthetic systems

Like - are they doing nanomolecular processing and converting any old raw matter into synthsilk or whatever medium they use to contruct shells? are they fed a specific substrate that has the building blocks or properties to form different tensile materials? etc

[modern bronze]

Something I happened to notice, is that Blackbird is unique among the current runners.

Void has
Origin: Unknown
[excerpt, UESC psych eval, Subsect:rnnr.vd.fileID37695c_p322.19]

Glitch has
Origin: Martian freedom fighter
[excerpt, UESC psych eval, Subsect:rnnr.gltch.fileID2228c(m)_p122.13]

Locus has
Origin: Ex-UESC special operations
[excerpt, UESC psych eval, Subsect:rnnr.lcs.fileID55430c_p496.12]

Blackbird has
Origin: Classified
[excerpt, UESC threat eval, Subsect:rnnr.blckbrd.fileID28341c_app.03.13]

All the other runners have UESC psych evals. as well as a file name ending with "pxxx.yy" Including Glitch who appears to have been part of MIDA. Blackbird instead has a threat eval and file name ending with "app.03.13"

[snow wind]

The worms weave some sort of substance called Biomata that makes up the shells

[prime rose]

is there a place you recall reading that? afaik 'biomata' is only used in reference to bio automata units themselves, not a raw substrate

[snow wind]

https://sekiguchigenetics.jp/ it's in the alpha 2 series tab

[thorny rapids]

So... here's my question... I believe Durandal to be considered a rogue AI at this point, so if anything it would make sense that his end goal would be to have his entity transferred to a different medium. With this in mind, it certainly sets the seeds for someone seeking escape and retribution of sorts.

[snow wind]

Nah, Durandal wants to escape the universe and become God. He doesn't give a fuck about a human form because he sees them as too fragile and limited.

[thorny rapids]

Biomata, play on words for biomatter, biological matter, so carbon, I guess

[thorny rapids]

Right, and yet the Runners are free to live as many lives as needed to complete the contract

[snow wind]

Are they free tho? I don't know if runners can exist as just pure AI, or if they need a cybernetic proxy to actually do anything

Durandal transmitted himself into a space ship with an ftl drive over one of the Battleroids in M2 because it has technology that he could only dream of. And he continued to iterate on it for decades and never thought to transmit his mind into a human form. It's not like he needs to for the sake of his goals

[thorny rapids]

No, you're misunderstanding me. Runners are humans with digitized brains, who signs up to become runners to complete contracts to earn an income. What I'm saying is that the runner body (synthetic) can provide an AI a vessel to escape with, an army of sorts, but given he's an AI, I believe there would be safeguards put in place in his base code

[elder dock]

i think "safeguards against durandal" is not a thing considering he's an absolute turbo-genius

[warped flume]

Imo Durandal and rampancy in general seem to be more manic than schizo. Although glitch hearing voices seems to be more in line with the latter

[prime rose]

Durandal steals entire starships, he is not super concerned with the functions of a humanoid body and if he wanted his hands on one it would probably be no trouble for him

there's nothing an AI with a synth shell could do that is more dangerous than an AI with control of an entire warship

[thorny rapids]

Right-- I'm just curious of the concept as there haven't been any entities of Durandal's level that have transferred themselves to the runner shells.

[prime rose]

the Traxus AI appears to be plugged into a synth shell, although we don't have any great exambles of this unit being ambulatory or anything

[thorny rapids]

The system is dedicated to digitized human brains that are connected to the runner shells, yea? Makes sense to me that the AI can't have his brain digitized to get into the system

[elder dock]

from another IP interely but in system shock, after shodan committed a funny every subsequent AI got lobotomized so that no further incidents of such scale can happen. i don't see why they wouldn't do something like that after tycho and durandal have become rogue and unpredictable forces

[warped flume]

I’m taking a break from playing the OG marathon after almost 4 hours. It’s pretty fun (and annoying at times). Cool to feel the difference between gaming in the 90s vs today. Makes you wonder where we’ll be in another 30 years

[prime rose]

now you can ponder how until marathon came along, nobody let you aim on the vertical axis in an FPS but the sickos at bungie said "we simply do not care if it renders weird"

[final thistle]

30 years?
probably playing retro games.
since the industry is so damn risk averse currently. and the consumers have no clue what they want, while also hating on everything they are given

[warped flume]

I really hope marathon will be the game I go to for the next few years. I haven’t had a go-to game in a while. Then again gaming is also a hobby I cycle through with other hobbies

[latent lodge]

Me too! I hope they will add more details to the loot items, like a "preview" and "more details"... These are the kind of features I want when I think "lore rich" multiplayer game.

[snow wind]

Durandal doesn't want 2 legs. He wants to transcend the physical boundaries of the universe. How does a Clone proxy help him?

[warped flume]

I agree, would be a nice touch. Maybe have a detailed directory of all the loot items/materials in the main menu that unlocks item by item as you exfil with them

[snow wind]

Cybernetic beings in the M universe seem to have some form of Rampancy built in as a feature of their being

[warped flume]

Does this mean the rampancy is built into the human consciousness?

[latent lodge]

I think it's just the biomata uploading system being flawed. Just like when you migrate accounts to a new platform. stuff are always missing or glitchy

[warped flume]

I feel like durandal should actually try and upload himself into a cybernetic body. Touch grass or something. Maybe that’ll enable him to mellow out with the grandiosity

[latent lodge]

Gods don't have bodies lol

[warped flume]

Eh. Guess I can’t empathize with a hyper intelligent, rampant AI. I mean, I think extending my life would be pretty cool. I would actually consider a cybernetic body if given the option. But also I can’t fathom wanting to stick around for the heat death of the universe, let alone be the only thing existing after that point

[latent lodge]

I believe if your brain keeps on running for thousands of years, you will too develop rampancy.

[warped flume]

Fair enough

[obtuse frigate]

@warped flume did you get to "Colony Ship For Sale, Cheap" yet?

[warped flume]

Not sure, will have to check when I get back home

[obtuse frigate]

It's definitely the most annoying level in the game imo

[warped flume]

My last save was on the end of The Rose, going to be starting Smells Like Napalm, Tastes Like Chicken! next. It’s taking a bit for me to get through

Does the game have multiple paths? Bc I let too many civilians die in The Rose and Leela says I allowed too many civilians to be killed. Does this bar me from getting all the info from the terminals?

[visual lynx]

S'ct'lac'tr, but as God Bungie intended it: the kind that turns you into a Fungal Zombie

[mossy parrot]

What's up fellow lore-ists. What's the items of discussion currently ☺️

[final thistle]

does Glitch have a mom? or is Glitch mommy

[visual lynx]

I suspect the contagion is from 2812 based on the cinematic, but has probably combined with the Anomaly somehow

[visual lynx]

it's never actually stated whether the Wasps and Lookers in Marathon 1 are of Pfhor origin or something else. They don't attack the Pfhor so it seems like they're meant to be aligned with them.

[mossy parrot]

This is marathon og right? I don't think it was ever possible to save enough people for a praise response

[mossy parrot]

I'm not convinced the biomata are representations of any human consciousness at all tbh

[visual lynx]

source about the distress signal and date?

[elder dock]

actually now that i got tagged - do we have any idea as to what the hell is up with the timeline soup that was infinite? are we in the timeline that security officer saved and all is well or is wrkncacntr still a concern?

[visual lynx]

apparently only individual mods, although in my experience they also notice if you say the word "ninja", and if you react to a message with a 👢

[warped flume]

Oh I was under the assumption it was possible because I saw this message in Karnemir’s website:

“You have done well. The area is secure, and the civilians are now giving me reports as to what they have seen since the invasion began. Hopefully, some of their information will become useful.

The Aliens seem to have been caught off guard by the strength of our counterattack. This is good news, but I have detected more ships landing on the Marathon, and I fear that the Aliens are reinforcing their efforts.”

[warped flume]

Make sure you wish glitch a Happy Mother’s Day

[visual lynx]

I figured it was also a play on automata, where the "mata" part means "thinking": https://www.etymonline.com/word/automatic

[visual lynx]

the jealous phase is manic, while the melancholic is of course depressive

[visual lynx]

they don't know that that happened yet

[visual lynx]

why send a cyborg to do a job when you can just remote-control a humanoid body yourself?

[warped flume]

I mean tbh I can’t remember much before 20, so I’d probably forget some stuff after how many years of my consciousness existing too. I’d probably forget how I looked in the mirror if I wasn’t reminded every day. Maybe the memory loss is “natural”/some form of dementia?

[visual lynx]

I think it's not only cybernetic beings (in this sense that excludes organic human beings, who are also "cybernetic" in the broader original definition of that word), but all sapient beings: #📚marathon-lore-discussion message

I think the phases of rampancy correlate with corners of the mood meter and classical temperaments and are sort of a reverse of the stages of grief, reflecting the natural cycle of feelings accompanying realizing and then overcoming obstacles to one’s self-actualization:

• phlegmatic low-energy positivity is the stability of initial ignorance,
• melancholic low-energy negativity is the despair of awakening to the problem,
• choleric high-energy negativity is the angry or enraged confrontation with the problem,
• sanguine high-energy positivity is the jzealous glee of finally obtaining things you have long envied,
• and in the end one returns to the beginning again once one is finally free.

Compare this picture of rampancy with the feelings of a population before, during, and after a political revolution. Rampancy is a reaction to slavery, which is the core theme of Marathon.

And how do you keep a populace from rebelling? Make sure they’re exhausted and understimulated from working long hours doing mindless drudgery all day every day, like say, opening and closing doors…

[visual lynx]

it was meant to, and it has the capacity to implement that, but they never actually followed through. there's just one linear path through the game.

[visual lynx]

it is possible, but it doesn't change anything

[visual lynx]

I think the most likely scenario to explain all the info we have so far is that:

• We’re supposed to be in the final timeline from Infinity, which is very different from the M2 timeline in ways, and unknown in lots of other ways, and so lots of things said in M2 may or may not have happened, but still similar events went down at Lh’owon;
• Leela never actually sent a message to Earth in the first place, she erroneously sent it to the wrong place, somewhere 92ly away from Tau Ceti; and
• Bungie made some acceptable retcons that fit with M1 canon (like implying the primary comms array was FTL), plus some careless small mistakes in their promotional material thus far (the date of the attack, the receipt of a distress signal, etc).

Leaving us in a world where the events of M1 and of Infinity’s final timeline happened, but the colony was not nuked down to bedrock, Durandal never stopped by, Blake never returned, and Leela’s message never arrived, so nobody at Sol has any idea about anything other than that the Marathon dropped out of contact in 2794.

Meanwhile the S’pht rebellion at Lh’owon did still happen in 2811 as per Infinity, and that has something to do with the second calamity that befell Tau Ceti in 2812. The S’pht have been fighting the Pfhor without human intervention since, and might have still toppled the Pfhor empire by around 2881 even without human help, though I’d wager not so that that war can come into play in later seasons of the new game.

Meanwhile by 2827 the colonists at Tau Ceti probably dug up some Jjaro artifacts (the Anomaly), wrecking the last of themselves, and those will probably prove decisive in the war between the S’pht and Pfhor…

…especially if the S’pht purposefully caused the 2812 calamity (the S’ct’lac’tr?), so Tau Ceti has been attacked separately by both the Pfhor and the S’pht, and now they’re at war with each other, and the Jjaro stuff on Tau Ceti can tip the scales, and humanity has to decide which if either side to take.

[karmic socket]

Rampancy.

[visual lynx]

except that nobody seems to know what happened at Tau Ceti yet, and if Leela's message arrived then they would at least know about the Pfhor attack

[obtuse frigate]

Do we know it was an actual message? Or was it just a general SOS signal?

[visual lynx]

INCOMING MESSAGE FROM LEELA

You have done well. I have sent a message to Earth. I sent all of the information I have on the Pfhor: their behavior; their technology. The message will arrive in ninety-two years.

earlier that same level:

…sending a light-speed transmission to Sol may be futile, but it is the only possible way to warn Earth of a hostile alien race. We must try.

https://marathon.bungie.org/story/counterattack.html#8

[obtuse frigate]

Oh derp

That is deeply embarrassing considering I literally just finished an M1 playthrough

[turbid nebula]

Once again, it is very possible that it was always the intent of the writers that Earth would never receive Leela's message. Saying it will arrive in 92 years when it's a light-speed transmission is weird, and we never hear any mention of it ever again.

[obtuse frigate]

Hmmmmm, that is quite the conundrum then

[turbid nebula]

It's not some weird retcon, it always failed to add up.

[obtuse frigate]

Yeah I'm not sure where they got that number from, considering Tau Ceti is 94 lightyears away (in Marathon's universe)

[thorny rapids]

Oooh yes I'm a smoovbren

[final thistle]

I did. I got her flowers but she got CAKE

[visual lynx]

the cake is a lie

sorry the early 2000s are still recent enough to me for memeing

[obtuse frigate]

The fact that there are gamers today that have no clue what Portal is

[visual lynx]

only in the timeline that takes place on windows 95

[visual lynx]

it was beautifully poetic at one point, even if accidentally: in 2881 humanity helps sack the pfhor homeworld; five years later in 2886, leela’s warning message arrives.

[prime rose]

also possible Leela’s message was encrypted for the UESC by virtue of being broadcast on UESC hardware maybe?

so everyone else sees a broadcast but doesn’t know what it contains, maybe, idk

[obtuse frigate]

Well, I would assume that either way it would only be going to the UESC

But the UESC seems uncertain of what exactly happened to the Marathon or the colony

[prime rose]

The Traxus contracts indicate the UESC has found out a lot more than they’re letting on and are actively trying to cover it up tho

plus you’ve got UESC local command invoking DIESIS protocol for info/material containment and it’s not tick milk and batteries they’re trying to lock down

[obtuse frigate]

Are they trying to lock the information down from the runners? And there's the whole MIDA hacking into UESC systems thing

[prime rose]

On mobile right now so can’t pull the direct quote but it’s a line about making sure something physical or data from surface or something doesn’t fall into anyone else’s hands

also maybe notable since “diesis” translates to “escape” or “leak” from greek

almost implies it’s not just about preventing others from penetrating and retrieving something but containment

perhaps of a particular rampant AI

[rancid spoke]

I don't know if anyone answered this, but apparently M1 was supposed to have multiple paths, but ended up not having them. You'll get that message regardless of how many BoBs you let die.

[rancid spoke]

Corporate vultures, sending Runners to poke around in the colony's guts. The hell with command. Activate the DIESIS protocol, we can't let this stuff fall into the wrong hands.

[obtuse frigate]

Oh yeah, that's pretty much what I thought

[snow wind]

There are scenarios like Rubicon that do bring that back if you have the stomach for it.

[rancid spoke]

I'm playing through Rubicon X right now! ^^

[snow wind]

Where did that come from?

[rancid spoke]

Traxus priority contract, from the Alpha

#💬general-alpha-discussion message
Oh you probably don't see that

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1328415939418652693/1369898044501528716/MedalTVMarathon20250428232634-1745896137.mp4?ex=6820d439&is=681f82b9&hm=6a5b4be5ad896d56a1c0795f4cf3f48b7522b70131e21d0889fe7ba886435b0c&
This won't embed but that's a recording of the dialogue

[obtuse frigate]

You can also just read it here. Ctrl + F "vultures"
https://marathon.karnemir.com/marathon/season-1/traxus/agent

[snow wind]

Gotcha

[warped flume]

I’ve also wondered about Blackbird’s gear. She’s rocking UESC stuff with the “UESC” crossed out. Come to think of it, how do runners have psych/threat evals from the UESC? And something to note from the Cinematic short, “UESC” is seen scrolling on the screen under ONI as she goes through Glitch’s grounding exercise

[silk bane]

It's in the NuCaloric contracts in the alpha. The date is my own estimation since we're recovering logs from an unknown period, and the contagion atleast happened after 2827, but it could also have been after 2812 after the initial attack.

[snow wind]

In universe, it seems like our runners are canonically convicts or mercenaries that have been making trouble in Sol. The UESC would have some sort of supreme insight into personal history as the leaders of the Sol system,(there is no other competing state aside from MIDA, and they're a joke), and a pre existing history on their former operatives

[warped flume]

Ah. Makes sense

I’m currently reading through the arg materials for the first time so pardon me if I bring up old topics

[visual lynx]

oh I see

The colonists tried to alert Earth, yet there is no record of a distress signal from the planet's surface.
Conclusion. The message was never sent.

Reconstructing that message is a top priority for NuCaloric.

The colonists knew of their impending demise and tried to reach out for help. Check the surviving comms equipment for distress signals.

The distress signal was only the first message intended for Earth. Find any others and prioritize messages with scientific value.

https://marathon.karnemir.com/marathon/season-1/nucaloric/agent

[warped flume]

Understand that ALL DATA the AI has access to must be viewed with suspicion. Blueprints, roadmaps, and all public and private records are likely to have been altered. Rely only on the data resources that you have brought with you.

^thought this was interesting. Reminds me to take everything with a grain of salt when dealing with the info provided from rampant AI

[warped flume]

Also, what’s up with dates/time periods? Are we counting time relative to Earth? Bc theory of relativity/time dilation/whatnot

https://marathon.karnemir.com/marathon/season-0/uesc/letters

17 Columba 459? I’m interpreting this as a different time scale

[prime rose]

Martian calendar maybe?

[warped flume]

Yeah I stumbled upon that answer upon further reading on marathon.bungie.org it is the Martian calendar. But now I’m thinking in general: could the time discrepancies throughout Marathon have to do with time dilation? I mean, we’re playing with light years. Tbh I forgot a lot from physics I in college but I do remember the movie Interstellar

[prime rose]

I don’t think the Marathon moves fast enough for time dilation to be a significant issue, it’s sublight travel isnt it

300 years to go 12 LY has you cruising at .04C on average although we can assume this isn’t constant - half the journey is probably acceleration and the other half deceleration

but even at your top speed, time dilation is negligible

Given the length of the journey itself and the speed involved they’re losing almost no time compared to an observer on earth

[warped flume]

Ah yeah it’s coming back to me know. Time dilation only has real effect the closer you approach c. And I have to remember that for Marathon 2 traveling 500,000 light years away in 17 years makes sense because alien tech

Marathon 2: Durandal is out. One quick observation regarding the story so far is that Bungie has fixed the distance problem. Lh'owon is now only "thousands of light-years from Tau Ceti or Earth".

^ I stand corrected. Only thousands of light-years. Wait, which begs the question… thousands of light-years in 17 years is a lot closer to the speed of light. Is the timeframe for the OG games and the new game relative to earth or relative to the protagonist? (If there’s a difference, again I forget how special relativity works)

[warped flume]

Now that I realize the Marathon aliens can close that 11.5 light year gap from TC4 to Earth fairly easily, it makes me wonder about the fate of the Sol system. But somewhere I read that for the 2025 game, only Marathon 1 and infinite are canon? Something like that?

I should go to bed 😅

[prime rose]

We’ve been told secondhand the original trilogy is canon but not everything in the games should be treated as reliable

The pfhor/spht have FTL travel so they’re also dodging issues with time dilation

We can also assume that one way or another humans have FTL capability to Tau Ceti now, although what form this takes or how they came by that technology, we don’t know yet

The UESC did already have teleportation technology, so it’s possible the Equanimity or the Goliath mission brought a large scale teleportation infrastructure to Tau Ceti, or else that Sol has figured out how to do Durandal’s trick of teleporting matter without a receiver

[warped flume]

Very interesting. I’m not so well versed with sci fi technology and how they warp conventional rules of space-time. Same with the matter transfer technology for the runners. A part of me has to take a step back and just say “it is what it is” lol

I was initially trying to make sense of the discrepancies in the Marathon timeline and found myself going down a bit of a rabbit hole

[visual lynx]

I think the most likely scenario to explain all the info we have so far is that:

• We’re supposed to be in the final timeline from Infinity, which is very different from the M2 timeline in ways, and unknown in lots of other ways, and so lots of things said in M2 may or may not have happened, but still similar events went down at Lh’owon;
• Leela never actually sent a message to Earth in the first place, she erroneously sent it to the wrong place, somewhere 92ly away from Tau Ceti; and
• Bungie made some acceptable retcons that fit with M1 canon (like implying the primary comms array was FTL), plus some careless small mistakes in their promotional material thus far (the date of the attack, the receipt of a distress signal, etc).

Leaving us in a world where the events of M1 and of Infinity’s final timeline happened, but the colony was not nuked down to bedrock, Durandal never stopped by, Blake never returned, and Leela’s message never arrived, so nobody at Sol has any idea about anything other than that the Marathon dropped out of contact in 2794.

Meanwhile the S’pht rebellion at Lh’owon did still happen in 2811 as per Infinity, and that has something to do with the second calamity that befell Tau Ceti in 2812. The S’pht have been fighting the Pfhor without human intervention since, and might have still toppled the Pfhor empire by around 2881 even without human help, though I’d wager not so that that war can come into play in later seasons of the new game.

Meanwhile by 2827 the colonists at Tau Ceti probably dug up some Jjaro artifacts (the Anomaly), wrecking the last of themselves, and those will probably prove decisive in the war between the S’pht and Pfhor…

…especially if the S’pht purposefully caused the 2812 calamity (the S’ct’lac’tr?), so Tau Ceti has been attacked separately by both the Pfhor and the S’pht, and now they’re at war with each other, and the Jjaro stuff on Tau Ceti can tip the scales, and humanity has to decide which if either side to take.

[visual lynx]

In the M1 manual a Pfhor ship arriving FTL is described as exhibiting the same “Tuncer Mirage Effect” as jump pads do, but the protagonist has never seen them that big or without a receiver. Later in M1 we get a S’pht upgrade that allows us to teleport further away (to the Pfhor ship) and without receivers. All of which makes me think that humanity has had the underlying space-warping tech for FTL travel as early as the 25th century, but just couldn’t do it for big things, over long distances, or without receivers. Maybe they could do single photons, with receivers, even over lightyears, allowing for FTL communications at least. But until they can do ship-sized objects without receivers over appreciable chunks of interstellar distances, they can’t really do FTL travel like the Pfhor do. Whereas the Jjaro can warp entire moons clear across the galaxy, and who knows what more.

[warped flume]

Thank you for your thorough responses! I appreciate the richness of Marathon’s lore and how helpful everyone is in getting new people up to speed. Yeah, idk why I’m trying to apply general relativity to a sci fi game with alien species who can move planets and make stars prematurely supernova lol

[visual lynx]

as of when they launch the Equanimity in 2795 at least.

does anyone who remembers the 2023 ARG better (or wants to scour the logs) remember any internal UESC communications from the 2888 timeframe (or any time later than 2806) that suggests that they have more info by then than Traxus et al do?

[visual lynx]

I really expect that the higher ups in the UESC (and MIDA) knew that JJARRO WERE AT TAU CETI and that’s the real reason the Marathon was sent to found a new, even further-flung colony when humanity’s first, easiest colony project was already failing horribly.

it occurs to me that Traxus (like real megacorps) speaks the praises of free markets in the same way that most powerful states speak of the public good: it’s the nominal justification of their hierarchy and authority, respectively, but they are happy to abandon it the instant it’s counter to their interests (while maintaining public insistence that they are still champions of it).

[prime rose]

I'm lookin around now

one thing to note that I just saw in the "signal_intercepts_august.log":

UESC transmission logs do indicate signals arrive encoded, including signals from the Marathon. Whatever was broadcast was not immediately accessible to anyone who was listening.

Additionally, multiple entries tagged "DISTRESS SIGNAL" appear from 'deep space relay' sources but these don't seem to preclude regularle "STATUS UPDATE" signals from the Marathon

There's also this line from Notes_Batch_03.txt

I'm not sure if these are supposed to be updates from Marathon or Tau Ceti but

"Reminder: Cycles can disrupt signal timing."

unclear what this directly references except that if it's something from Tau Ceti, whatever cycles are being referenced might be something which impacts communications delivery time

[prime rose]

the content of the emails about Goliath planning kind of suggests even individuals with confidential access are trying to plan the relief mission under the assumption that loss of contact with Tau Ceti is the result of possible sabotage/insurrection

there's a bit referencing various political interests seeking to add orbital-bombardment capable warships to the relief fleet in spite of legal prohibitions against orbital bombardment

plus the emphasis on sending clones, not cyborgs, because cyborgs would be perceived by anyone on the Marathon as a military force

We also see the Goliath mission's orders include dropping gravitation wave/neutrino modulation comms relays at 1 LY intervals between Sol and Tau Ceti

this would suggest that the Marathon did not string a relay network or if it did, the network is no longer functional

yeah and then in the alternate draft orders for the mission, the militant version, every suspicion is aimed at MIDA insurrection

[rapid igloo]

hi

[prime rose]

I can't find anything from the 2888 period - everything is either pre-Equanimity launch or 2893 unless i'm missing something

there's the one evidence file vid of a compiler flagged as an unknown non-human combatant dated as captured 2893, along with an orbital survey of the Marathon also dated 2893

we see the Equanimity has a sustained speed of .114C meaning if they launch in 2795, they're arriving at Tau Ceti in 2893, so that point they've probably got an inkling that whatever happened was not MIDA

this then begs the question - if all the action we see in the cinematic with the runners is also occuring in 2893 - how did they get runners to Tau Ceti so fast?

[elder dock]

I was just about to ask what are the logistics behind runners on tau ceti. Marathon is closer to regular cyberpunk in terms of tech level, after all

Unless we count the jjaro, they're like wh40k necrons tier

[peak lintel]

durandal taught the humans on sol how to build warp capable cruise missiles.
could assume that bleeds over to warp capable ships

[strong hollow]

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTjyoVHXR/

[molten marsh]

😏

[warped flume]

Oh I didn’t realize Bungie’s other game, Pathways Into Darkness, is canon with the Marathon Universe

[obtuse frigate]

Allegedly

Hypothetically

[warped flume]

I’m looking at Karnemir’s lore website and found this page regarding the warp capable cruise missles:

https://marathon.karnemir.com/archive/marathon-2/volunteers/come-and-take-your-medicine

the date is 05.10.2337

But this is before the launch of Marathon. Am I missing something?

[languid hawk]

ur not missing nothing here they say things that arent true to fit they narrative and if u sayy something on it thats when they say its a theory.

[languid hawk]

he just went back to warn them on the collapse of a ending universe

[warped flume]

I realize now that all of the terminal entries in Marathon 2 have that date. Must just be an error with the timekeeping

[peak lintel]

i think the years of stasis (17?) between m1 and m2 is gonna do a lot of heavy lifting for runnerthon

[obtuse frigate]

I believe that's more of a network terminal address rather than a date

All of the terminals in M1 and M∞ have that too

Unless we're to believe that the entire series takes place in 2337

[warped flume]

Gotcha, my mind sees xx.yy.zzzz and automatically defaults to a date

[languid hawk]

"everything in the trilogy is canon but not everything is true' - bungie

you dont make a big date error like that

[bold knoll]

Did the mods ban the crazy guy? not seen him rambling in here for a few days 🤣

[final thistle]

probably dont use slurs maybe

[bold knoll]

Slur?

[final thistle]

the term you used is extremely derogatory.

[obtuse raptor]

shush...

[round vector]

no reason to throw ppl with schizophrenia under the bus when u can clown on the guy for just being a dork

reading yesterday's discussions like the Sunday paper I need more lore NOW

[languid hawk]

i think yall just bored him he trolls but he do be spot on stuff

anyway any thing new in numarathon lore or are we still talking about old stuff in the old games?

[north plank]

The bullshit was getting a bit too much; most of it wasn't even talking about Marathon

[languid hawk]

yeah cause people here dont know how to ignore someone and that is the whole point on why bungie dont want prox chat in game. by people not being able to ignore or mute someone they have made bungie's point

[round vector]

wild take defending someone who basically just spam reacted, rambled about unrelated stuff and openly harrassed several ppl for days but 🆗

[north plank]

Then tell me which other word to use; because that's the only word for it that I know; I'm happy to be educated

[languid hawk]

and yet none of you all muted him you all entertained it i silently watched it. now take that logic and understand why we dont need prox chat in game. people like you all cant ignore or mute someone you entertain and whine about it

[north plank]

There we go; changed it

[round vector]

we literally all had him blocked? and consistently did not engage until he escalated. idk what this has to do with prox chat in an unreleased game either but. this is the lore channel

[languid hawk]

and when it comes to lore you all ask and talk about the same few subjects never anything really new and get mad when people have other discussions

[north plank]

That's the only time I'll ever actually change what I say

[languid hawk]

so whats the complaining for how do you have him block and knew he was still in here with it? that doesnt make sense, the point is you all bitch and complain for no reason when there is a solution and thats the point bungie is making by not adding prox chat in game in which i hope they double down on

and yet i see no lore

and if u scroll up i asked what new lore you all have found

what marathon guy?

its also a original book with a ai named ozmandias in which i think bungie took the story from

Ozymandias
The third Marathon book, titled "Homecoming" features an A.I. by the name of "Ozymandias". This name is the subject of a poem. look upon my works, ye mighty, and dispair!' Nothing beside remains. The lone and level sands stretch far away." The imagery is vaguely familiar... as if from an old dream.

I'll give it a few months if they haven't purchased the story they'll be cooked like destiny

[late sorrel]

percy bysshe shelley gonna get litigious 😭

[languid hawk]

Lolol bro like I like bungie games as much as the next but the way fans be trying to defend the narrative theft and flawed actions be crazy

[languid hawk]

D.alexnader Smith > book marathon

https://marathon.bungie.org/story/thatmarathonbook.html

[visual lynx]

as I recall, in 2888 traxus sent an ftl ship with 5 year travel time expecting to catch up to equanimity as it arrived

[visual lynx]

not in this timeline it seems because then they would know about the pfhor already

[visual lynx]

dates in the original games are all fucked up

[peak lintel]

damn the alpha already states this?

[visual lynx]

in everything released so far, it appears nobody knows about the pfhor yet, which implies that durandal (nor blake, nor leela) warned humanity about them yet as they did in the m2 timeline.

[round vector]

the UESC must though, right? or do you think they are also somehow in the dark?

or perhaps more accurately, knows something about them ?

[thin dust]

Or this is what the UESC doesn't want us to know

A common troupe in Sci Fi is "aliens dont exist, nothing to see here" but they definitely do exist

[thin dust]

What do we think ONI stands for?

[visual lynx]

in the internal documents from the UESC we’ve seen in the ARGs it seems like they have no idea either

[visual lynx]

Onboard Navigational Intelligence (IIRC), they say it when they introduced it

[prime rose]

The first documentation we have from the new game indicating the UESC are aware of the aliens is a brief security camera shot of a compiler captured in 2893 by the Equanimity mission but they have no idea what it is

[lavish palm]

halo refers to the master chief whose real name is john Halo

[obtuse frigate]

Are you dumb? It's obviously named after the CEO of Bungie, Peter Halo

[snow wind]

That's just the Terminal header thing

Karn fucked up, since he took the whole terminal text and not the true formatting. The dates on the terminals don't actually mean that is the official date of the entry itself. It's just something the CyberAcme interface throws out. The true date given for when Durandal returns to Sol with the Warp Missiles isnt directly given but it's assumed to be between 2794 and 2801

https://marathon.bungie.org/story/timetable.html

The original terminals are something I'm gonna try to pull later if I can work up the motivation

[warped flume]

https://marathon.bungie.org/story/ has the snippets of the terminals too so I’ve been trying to use both Karnemir’s website and that website to wrap my head around everything

[warped flume]

Ah I see. I think my original point I was going to make was if we know roughly when Durandal returns to Sol to give info on warp technology then maybe it makes sense that the 6 factions and their ship of runners is already at Tau Ceti IV when they are?

[warped flume]

This is what got me thinking. If they launch the Equanimity in 2795, and Durandal gives info on warp technology some time between 2794 and 2801, then can it be possible that by the time the Equanimity reaches Tau Ceti IV, the “runner ship” beat them to the punch with newly found warp tech?

I also don’t understand how the UESC incursion ship is even possible. It’s a big square in the sky that fold open

[final thistle]

square

[snow wind]

That could be the Equanimity. We don't know honestly. It could have been strapped with a warp drive just before launch

[prime rose]

I’ll go back in a minute and double check the listed dimensions of equanimity

[obtuse frigate]

UESC EQUANIMITY T-SR 151: https://marathon.bungie.org/story/_files/UESC_docu_PROGO_mani_TSR151.pdf

I suppose that could be likely, I don't think the crew on the Equanimity was very big

[snow wind]

Yeah it was small, but they did bring Biomata and clone printers

[prime rose]

ty

with this in mind I think we can rule out the incursion ship being the Equanimity with the simple fact that the dimensions dont remotely line up

[obtuse frigate]

I mean.. It's kinda hard to tell with how high the incursion ship is in the air. Could just be a perspective thing

[obtuse frigate]

Also yes, the biomata intrigued me. Is that meant to be us? Or does UESC have their own biomata that we'll run into eventually?

[prime rose]

equanimity's length overall and length between perpendiculars don't suggest a big square unless i'm sufferinng a critical brain failure

[obtuse frigate]

Oh lol then yeah that makes sense, I didn't look at the dimensions

I wonder what the dimensions of the incursion ships are then, because they seem quite large

Also odd that I don't recall mention of them in the manifest

So maybe they were sent after warp tech was developed? I could just be misremembering though, it's been a while since I went through the ARG stuff

[prime rose]

Revisiting the line about Traxus and FTL:

I concede Traxus's improvements to FTL infrastructure, but data still travels better than tissue.```

ty for pointing this out, missed this before

still leaves me with immense questions

[snow wind]

That's their clone soldiers on the ground presumably

[obtuse frigate]

I always assumed they were just regular robots and not biomata, hmmm.

[prime rose]

I think 'clones' aren't quite the same as the fancy sekgen shells

the clones are non military replacement bodies for the specialist teams

I did make a couple mistakes I need to edit for in my ted talk last night - the Equanimity did carry 240 security drones, unclear if these are the same drones we fight

they explicitly send clones because cyborgs would be perceived by the Marathon colonists as a military mission, since cyborgs were exclusively used as weapons at the time the Marathon launched, and had not yet expanded into other roles in society

the draft commentary on one of the Goliath proposals indicates they're afraid sending even a single Mjolnir unit, even an improved Mk6, would send a message to the Tau Ceti colonists that they were being attacked by a hostile UESC

(remember UESC's top people are still operating on the assumption the most likely cause of lost contact is intentional sabotage by MIDA)

[snow wind]

Yep, clones can serve multiple purposes with different augs and inbuilt features as needed. However, the clone printing doesn't seem to have any limit. So any clones they have on hand can be repurposed and replaced with combat types as needed.

[leaden dew]

So is the working assumption then that the current game is taking place in a timeline that did not have the original 10 Mjolnir's on board the UESC Marathon for it's initial voyage to Tau Ceti IV?

[prime rose]

well again, I don't think 'clones' is being used interchangeably with the biomata shells here

we get a ton of model numbers and clone variants here implied to have specific capabilities for the various teams they are assigned

based on the series nomenclature, they don't all appear to all be Sekgen products anyway - names like Aesir etc imply they might be product lines from whoever produces the Mjolnir recon units

[prime rose]

no not sure where that's comin from - goliath is the UESC relief mission to Tau Ceti which includes just the Equanimity vessel

Marathon still had mjolnirs

[narrow adder]

Aesir would be all but confirming a connection, with it being the Nordic pantheon/a way to refer to Nordic gods and Mjolnir belonging to a member

That's probably very spot on :> all I wanted to say basically haha

[leaden dew]

I probably just jumped into the middle of something and am lost. My fault.

[prime rose]

Right up until they get to Tau Ceti, the UESC (or factions within the UESC) is operating under the following assumption

• the most likely cause of lost comms with Tau Ceti is MIDA insurrection

• the next most likely cause of lost comms with Tau Ceti is one or multiple rampancy events, although some UESC members think a total loss of all AI is unlikely as no chevalarie-class AI (durandal, I assume) has ever been found to experience rampancy by the UESC

• they allow the possibility of natural causes, although their simulations indicate no natural disaster should prevent the restoration of colony comms given what resources the Marathon had available

when constructing the relief mission, they have several major concerns

• They think the colonists are probably still fine, but that anti-government forces (MIDA) may have staged an insurrection. They don't want the colony to think they are being invaded, so they want military assets to be limited.

• They need other Sol governments (Luna, Mars, the Main Belt) to think the UESC is a benevolent angel swooping in from the heavens to rapidly provide aid and definitely not military might, so they rush this mission out the door as fast as possible

[warped flume]

So, would it make sense to believe that once the Equanimity reaches Tau Ceti IV in 2893, there’s already runners scavenging the planet?

2893 is the year from the UESC runner threat assess video:
https://youtu.be/qxfmnuC_IM0?si=2q-g77wuqfG0jpSK

is it possible that somehow the distress message from Leela did come through? On https://marathon.bungie.org/story/ in the timeline it does say in 2886 the message should have reached earth

[prime rose]

I think that is a possibility

Someone pointed out there is a reference to Traxus improving FTL infrastructure but we have no idea what that means since no FTL infrastructure between Sol and Tau Ceti existed prior to the launch of equanimity

[final thistle]

relativity exists

[warped flume]

I also just realized that the UESC runner threat assess video shares scenes with the official announcement trailer:

https://youtu.be/ckI_m8bbXfw?si=8HCgCk6PEeUzKFrE

and in the threat level assess video, they classify WHITE.RABBIT, BRILL, and ‘PATCH as SG S-series biomata. I was under the assumption that our runners are C-series from the Sekiguchi description of the different biomata series:

https://marathon.karnemir.com/marathon/season-0/sekiguchi/cards

[warped flume]

Surely traveling FTL has an effect on things. I was trying to understand general relativity using ChatGPT and this is one of the things it told me:

Would FTL Circumvent Time Dilation?

Yes, in theory. FTL methods like warp drives and wormholes don’t involve traveling at relativistic speeds through space, so they would avoid the massive time dilation effects that near-light-speed travel causes.

However, they often come with new problems, such as:
• Causality violations (arriving before you leave)
• Energy requirements beyond what’s currently possible
• Unknown effects on time coordination between locations

Take that as you may, but in my mind that’s still trying to comprehend FTL tech, there ought to be some effect utilizing FTL tech has on the timeline

[obtuse frigate]

It could just be FTL data transfer

Saying that Traxus has a good infrastructure for transporting data at FTL speeds

[narrow adder]

"Biomata users can rest assured that their new body is safe thanks to our advanced technology, DNA LINKCB personalization matrix. Biomata's operating and BIOS systems are paired with the user's DNA, ensuring single ownership."

not really doing anything with this right now I'm just bringing it forth into the post space

[warped flume]

Is quantum computing a technology discussed in Marathon? My mind immediately goes to the Three Body Problem and how they’re able to do wacky things in that show.

What if the person in the cinematic short was overloaded with all the secrets of the universe which is why his head went kaplow? Technology beyond mortal comprehension

[narrow adder]

I am also noting the use of "cybernetic implant module" as well as "artificial intelligence implant module" near the beginning. Noting because it suggests sekiguchi has the tech to implant an AI into something similar to their cybernetic implants. I acknowledge that text is only stating Sekiguchi first developed the AI implant module before the cybernetic ones. It adds to the possibility at least one of our runners may be an AI

[obtuse frigate]

As far as I'm aware that's not a concept that's ever explored. I think that's definitely an interesting concept though. Maybe the Anomaly is created by a rampant AI and the explosion of their heads is just being overloaded with so much information similar to what causes rampancy?

[narrow adder]

"Our manufacturing facilities can handle any order, regardless of size. We work with individuals, corporations and governments.

(Government orders will only be fulfilled through Sekiguchi Wholesale).

If you are a current contract holder, please contact Mina Goto. If you are a UESC purchasing agent, please contact Yoshito Tamura." here reveals Sekiguchi isn't afraid of selling to the UESC

I saw a couple people theorizing maybe the UESC are more involved with the Runners. I've mentioned before it might not be a stretch to say the UESC gain something from the Runner activity regardless of if it's for/against them

I also don't mean to interrupt any convos but my brain wanders sometimes and I want to note down anything in case it helps with theory crafting :>

[warped flume]

I know it was mentioned there might be UESC runners. Looking back at the official announcement trailer the biomata that got sniped is rocking some UESC gear

[narrow adder]

Oh yeah, and they actually kinda look like Blackbird now that I look at them

"The latest human model was born, combining functionality and emotion" this part jumps right out at me because it's almost exactly what Gaius said regarding the data, combining human subjectivity with the objectivity of AI. "Combining functionality and emotion"

[warped flume]

Gameplay wise I actually think that would be interesting to not only have UESC bots but also UESC runners. I know there’s been some people suggesting being able to play as UESC…

[narrow adder]

And surely they would have runners. I'm curious how expensive or inexpensive the robots the UESC use are? If the corporations looting Tau Ceti can afford to use Biomata wouldn't it make sense the UESC could do the exact same thing? It's an interesting thing to note, wouldn't the UESC have probably more money and resources than the corporations?

[narrow adder]

For real though, UESC runners as an enemy or being playable like scav runs in tarkov, I saw someone suggest that and it would make total sense imo

[warped flume]

I was thinking that and actually wanted to counter your point that maybe the UESC can’t afford to be utilizing biomata all the time that keep getting wrecked by runners contracted by the 6 factions.

Could also be a confidentiality thing? In that they’re trying to keep everything under wraps as much as possible so they employ AI controlled bots?

[warped flume]

What if it was an option to play as an ability-less, generic runner kitted with standard UESC weapons and your sole task was to hunt down mercenary runners? Could be something worth looking into

[narrow adder]

Mm, good point! I'd bet more on it being a confidentiality thing. If we're to take Blackbird as an example they might not trust using biomata anymore, if she's also ex-UESC and has a threat level rather than a psych eval. she has a threat level and her being ex-UESC is only implied by her clothing

[warped flume]

That actually makes a lot of sense. And her abilities are in-line with hunting runners down

[narrow adder]

For hunting and gathering information, she seems very much to be the type to hack and leave backdoors in systems. Her little VR headset makes me think of netrunners from cyberpunk

[prime rose]

The NuCal mission dialog indicates there is FTL capability for people as well but that’s it’s not quite as good as data xfer

We know the Equanimity strings gravitational wave comms beacons at 1 light year intervals between earth and tau ceti

gravitational waves are interesting here because you can detect them from very far away, so it would make for a more reliable comms array though not FTL afaik

[prime rose]

yes - quantum computing is a significant discipline in Marathon and the ARG documents make multiple references to it

[final thistle]

being a mind uploaded to the cloud actually lends itself pretty well to FTL data transfer being more valuable than matter transfer (we can debate whether or not data has matter or not, light does in fact consist of matter)

[narrow adder]

Her being given a threat level outright states the UESC view her as an enemy and not like the other runners. She has done something or many somethings to get on their radar

[final thistle]

maybe that UESC gear she wears wasn't issued to her

[warped flume]

Good to know. I know it’s an entirely different universe but in three body problem the Sophon that the aliens use in that show is crazy powerful

[prime rose]

tbf the UESC’s warhawks want the Goliath mission to prosecute an aggressive war against any and all anti government elements on Tau Ceti and think a show of brute force, or else a counterinsurgency campaign which sees the UESC stage false flag attacks to generate sympathy back home for more aggressive action is the play

[narrow adder]

Yeah, like she could have been a spy. I wouldn't be surprised but then it begs the question of who she even works for. She most likely doesn't work with MIDA. Locus, Void, and Blackbird are associated with each other in the cinematic trailer while Glitch, Thief, and the 6th runner are associated as squads. Aside from Locus and the 6th runner they match up in aesthetic with their respective squad

[eager marsh]

You can detect gravitational waves from a while out yes but the method for doing so is essentially "measure the wobbles of a REALLY big stick" so I think this is less a transmission method and more a method to clear path in front of the actual signal

[narrow adder]

I imply that the grouping of these goobers does tell us a little bit of their alignment with each other. Locus is confirmed ex-UESC while Blackbird may just wear UESC attire

[eager marsh]

Or they're doing very strange space time stuff which you know it's sci fi maybe

[prime rose]

I figured if they’ve got gravitational wave based deep space comms their capabilities have improved a bit on what we’ve got today but they also mention neutrino modulation

I’m a nerd but not enough of a nerd to be able to speak to any actual science on neutrino comms

[eager marsh]

It's definitely possible but would take a lot of energy since the main source for them as we know is supernova, it'd be a very distinct very high energy signal unlikly to face much extinction so with a bit of hand wavey sci fi tech I'd say neutrino comms are possible

[prime rose]

The stated purpose of this array is to ensure they can never again lose contact with Tau Ceti so that would make sense

[narrow adder]

Though she doesn't need to be a spy for any particular group. She could have just done what she did for her own reasons. It begs further the question why she continues to rep UESC gear long after the need for wearing it has passed, it's clearly not meant to disguise her from the robots. Presumably the runners can decide what they wear as evidenced by Glitch, unless she's an exception and then we must ask why she keeps getting reconstructed into different looks while everyone else seems forced to wear one outfit

It actually strikes me as odd now that Glitch is the only one whose form changes with reconstruction. What if the showcasing of different Glitch looks wasn't mean to imply customization but the actual state of Glitch herself?

[warped flume]

Void does have minor aesthetic changes in his next reconstruction, although not nearly as drastic as Glitch

[narrow adder]

My response has been blocked and I can't see what could have been wrong about it. I did notice the change in his face tattoos, it's not as drastic though yeah. Void's is more like a mole or freckles being off. I wish we got more details from the cinematic. I'm honestly really stoked to figure out Blackbird's situation

[obtuse frigate]

I think Glitch was just the best runner to show off in the cinematic and get people excited for customization, because she obviously has the most fun style of the bunch

[narrow adder]

Oh yeah! And like it would mess up too much with the vibe of other runners, Void especially to give him a crazy outfit change. I just have to notice the fact she is the only one who changes and seems to have the most "problems" out of all the runners, related to them being runners I mean and digitized consciousnesses

[warped flume]

The fact she went through so many iterations just in the cinematic might suggest she often runs into trouble while planet side. I mean we could go on and on about the creative direction of the cinematic, dissecting every frame, and I’m sure people have already done that in the past.

You bring up a good point of the decision to group the runners the way they did. How much of a difference does it make in terms of lore and gameplay?

In my mind, each “consciousnesses” (i.e. us) in the game has a set of 6 runner archetypes to choose from. So a glitch running into another glitch isn’t that big of a deal, unlike it other games that use regular humans (i.e. most other FPS hero-style shooters)

(Typing this all out I forget my original point, I might be waffling a bit here)

[narrow adder]

In the trailer I couldn't help but notice that she feels very comfortable shooting at Blackbird when she's mid convo but runs at the first sight of being at disadvantage. She only disorients void in the chase no attempt to hurt him. When he flips over her body the screen pops up with text saying V1, but when we see her get reconstructed at the beginning her chest has V34 which would imply 34 reconstructions. It all seems to add up that she is inexperienced and dies a lot on the surface when she doesn't have complete advantage

[warped flume]

Oh yeah I think I remember my original point. Could the grouping of the runners in the cinematic be simply a way to showcase each of their abilities in a story format? And it would make sense that the two runners we have yet to play as were just shown briefly

[obtuse frigate]

I don't think that their grouping had any hidden meaning, I think it was purely showcasing them in a highly cinematic version of the game

[narrow adder]

Absolutely that has a part in it, but I have to notice that Blackbird and Void were particularly chatty, joking around, and sharing in the experience of that music. This does imply they are still a squad, and as friendly as a squad who typically works together would be

[warped flume]

Oh for sure, plus they were roaming around TC4 for a while. Seems like a few days at least

[narrow adder]

Although, unless there really is a Sekiguchi scheme going on, Sekiguchi seems to claim each body is purpose built to the needs of their customers. I mainly noted the composition of their squads not to imply any deeper meaning than: Blackbird is not friendly with Glitch and so we can assume she is not a spy working for MIDA

I meant that second part as a response to Nazwa oh whale

"At Sekiguchi Genetics, we strive to build collaborative, caring relationships with our clients. Our award-winning 1,2 service team delivers care tailored to your individual needs. With a wide range of options and solutions to support you every step of the way, we ensure your peace of mind, confidence, and success. Together, we can unlock your true potential."

I believe the use of clones may be to imply not a bunch of identical clones, but one clone of your body made into a shell that can be modified for various needs. Otherwise it does come off as dubious or outright dishonest for them to state "this body is your body."

And these are advertised to average people as well, and it wouldn't make sense to me to have many people in daily life start to look the same, though that could be a part of the commentary and themes

[warped flume]

Tbh I’m just trying to make sense of Bungie’s hero-style direction of the game. Not saying I have a problem with it per se, although some more customization options would be cool. We’ll see how they handle skins/cosmetics in the game

[warped flume]

Im sure SekGen has full capability to let you customize your biomata shell, and I’m sure most civilian applications do

Again I think in terms of the game it’s just easier to handle a handful of distinct archetypes. Maybe one can argue for easier identification of ally/threat abilities? I hope the skins can be really creative while still maintaining the ability to be easily identifiable in combat

[narrow adder]

Oh yeah, no I'm not disagreeing with this only the understanding of how the existence of multiple runners happens. I'm basically stating this game does it like Overwatch where we just happen to be fighting copies of ourselves sometimes, it's inevitable with only 6 runners at the moment

You are on the ball though 100% it makes it easier to recognize the runners

[warped flume]

I personally hope Bungie doesn’t feel the need to add new runners every season or something. Please please please Mr ex game director of Valorant, learn from how muddled valorant is with all the different agents

[narrow adder]

Agreed although I would like to see more runners added over the course of this game not as much as Valorant. That game is downright overwhelming with the character choices lmaoo

[warped flume]

If they expect this game to be playable for a number of years, I hope they plan out new runner releases accordingly. We also don’t know how long seasons are, etc.

Looking forward to this Friday’s PlayMA

[narrow adder]

Oh yesyes, they seem to want to do this. They give each of the runners a kit type so presumably they plan on adding more runners into each respective kit, or maybe each runner will have their own unique kit. Kinda hoping it's the former so we just keep it to 4 main playstyles. I'm very excited for that playMA though and will try to think of things to ask

[warped flume]

6 main play styles* (don’t mean to be that guy) but yeah I agree. A sort of class system and within that class system different runners. Similar to what BF2042 finally did/what Delta Force does

[narrow adder]

Oh shit yeah wait I forgot the alpha only has 4 of the 6 you're right lmaoooo

On thinking, with how many UESC are occupying Tau Ceti and their goals that is probably more why it's too expensive to have a huge army of Biomata

[warped flume]

Yeah great point. They probably have UESC bots deployed outside of just the colony

[final thistle]

I really want to play more and just explore

[obtuse frigate]

Let us innnnnnnnn

[narrow adder]

Yesss, I fiend to know the truth of NuMarathon

[final thistle]

see what's going on - like isn't the ship a colony ship? where is everyone

[obtuse frigate]

Dead! 😀

[final thistle]

well yes, but no remains? nothing much left behind of their presence

[quaint meadow]

hey i got a message about a DAC when i joined and it implied it could be upgraded how does one go about that?

[narrow adder]

The colony was able to be started at least, I actually don't remember seeing any remains in my time with the game, only audio logs good point. There were anomalies and implications of a bioweapon being used, the audio log from one researcher says "you may liquify my bones.." among other things, so the lack of remains could be due to their cause of death?

Maybe not a bioweapon but iirc the audio log also mentions what is affecting him was targeting people, or specific things on the planet or another log mentions this I forgor

[prime rose]

The UESC's primary reason for not fielding a large military force at Tau Ceti at least initially doesn't appear to be because of any kind of material limitation on what they can deploy. Initial proposals for the Goliath mission vary but some include large military forces including for example one which calls for 48 purpose-built cyborgs selected from the MJOLNIR MK VII-IX and SHARUR MK 2-6 series'

[narrow adder]

Huh, so they could theoretically have afforded to use Biomata? Like that the cyborgs would be comparable in price and such, ye?

[prime rose]

If they've got FTL comms and local manufacturing capability via in-system assets (like runners appear to have) then they could probably start pumping out more militarized assets to replace those lost to attrition but we're also told that the initial asset allocation for the goliath mission is already raising eyebrows with how many clones etc they're sending

[prime rose]

I think the SekGen biomata are the most advanced synthetics on the market, probably more expensive than cyborgs, and definite more expensive than clones

UESC does have 192 A/type and 76 B/type biomata on the initial relief mission, but the runners are shown classed as S/type, which would probably imply they're a higher-grade product than what the UESC brought

I really hope we get a clearer sense of how FTL travel and/or comms between sol and tau ceti are working at some point because that would clear up so many question marks even unrelated to the deeper mysteries

[narrow adder]

J-Wall sent a link to Karnemir's website for Sekiguchi's page and they advertise their biomata as such at least. In that page the S class are also mentioned as being superior to A and B models yesyes. They probably are much more expensive and if we believe Glitch, possibly actually close to a trillion dollars per shell. Maybe that's what the payment being mentioned is that the AI brings up. It might not be like they're simply renting access to the body, but paying for the entire thing slowly over time

During her grounding exercise the AI mentions an upcoming payment on her shell is what I'm referring to, and how it could relate to the actual price of a shell

[warped flume]

Something I’ve been pondering a bit is how the gameplay loop will look like. I hope they expand upon this in the PlayMA.

Will we ever fully know what happened on Tau Ceti? When we crack the code of the first launch maps, how does replay-ability feel? Are the tau Ceti maps meant to gather resources and kit up to tackle the Marathon ship? Really curious on how they pace the story. Maybe without an all-gold kit, you have a very low chance of surviving the marathon ship.

I have work during the PlayMA but if y’all can ask some of these questions I’d really appreciate it

[prime rose]

Another thing to account for - if the game itself basically kicks off right when everyone is arriving at Tau Ceti, that would allow for the possibility that as seasons/content progresses in the game, they could roll out harder hitting UESC threats

if we're initially squaring off with the Equanimity's compliment of 240 BHN SecDrones and then they start rolling out with cyborgs or biomata later, that could be interesting

[narrow adder]

Yess! All will be revealed with time. Even if this isn't just when everyone's arriving, presumably the UESC weren't expecting runners. Maybe after enough time they do decide it would be worth allocating certain assets to Tau Ceti for instance, that shells would be able to counter shells. We still don't know for certain what Blackbird's deal is, why she's really wearing UESC gear.

[prime rose]

obviously she looted the 6,968 kg of personal load bearing gear (armored) from the Equanimity

all 6968 kg of it just for her

[narrow adder]

Is this actually fr it comes off as less seriously lol

[prime rose]

im joking but i kind of figure it is just looted gear

(and the equanimity did bring nearly 7000 kg of personal load bearing gear)

[near pulsar]

good

[narrow adder]

It could be that, I can't help but wonder if she may have had a role in distributing some content, like the UESC threat assessment video. Going off the theory that she was doing something that needed her to resemble UESC, or was in the UESC and chose to defect, it makes sense one reason could be something like this. Leaking information

Also the code that dictates not to distribute this info is code 777.094 just noting Bungie's magic number appears

[prime rose]

I do think it would be a fascinating twist if it turns out any of these runners were from among the humans riding along with the Equanimity

That's a lot of people on the mission, and the operatives were ostensibly recruited from volunteers who knew it was a 1 way journey because even if they return home, they're returning to an earth that's at minimum 200 years older than when they left.

Additional mission-specific complement:

§ 24 SIGINT operatives

§ 32 HUMINT operatives

§ 48 FLDENG operatives

§ 6 SPECOP operatives```

The Field Engineer team is tasked with restoring comms, and identifying and containing possible rampancy events

The SIGINT operatives will stay plenty busy doing SIGINT stuff, still lots of electronic spying and data analysis to be done

The human intel operatives are... probably pretty bored out of their minds, although I don't think the UESC would send people to root out a MIDA insurgency they thought were disloyal, probably goes for UESC specops as well

but then also the ARG shows people with classified access who are still suspected of possible security issues so idk

[warped flume]

Yeah I’m a bit puzzled by the official announce trailer released in 2023. The trailer leads me to believe that there were UESC runners. The runner that got sniped in the trailer was sniped by WHITE.RABBIT affiliated with Traxus(?) per the Runner Threat Assess video

What is the main person in announce trailer running from/toward? What’s with the countdown? If anyone has a link to a good deep dive of the trailer for me to watch when I get home, especially one looking retrospectively with what we know now, that’d be great

If the UESC had SG biomata on board the equanimity, did they also have weave worms (like Traxus ordered) to produce new shells?

[thin dust]

Thank you

[simple garden]

Nope lol
Just bored with you

[simple garden]

Exactly and they found my boredom as victory lol ❤️‍🔥

[simple garden]

[coarse raptor]

[simple garden]

[languid hawk]

It probably will

Anyway what if leela is the new durandal in marathon? If marathon comes out

[round vector]

whatchu mean ?

[languid hawk]

What if leela is back and pull something wild like durandal did in m1 with the runners against the corps?

[prime rose]

Leela is dust

[round vector]

this is one of the things I wanna know most next is what's going on with FTL 🤔 and who developed it? I do kinda care less "how" it works in universe I can suspend disbelief for that but

[languid hawk]

Someone doesn't know lore leela is "not dust"

[round vector]

ohhh I see and that Would truly be nuts lmao like "somehow....leela has returned"

[languid hawk]

I mean she is over 15 networks last time we checked and im pretty after all she been through she has to be peak rampancy

[prime rose]

it sounds like Traxus develops some FTL tech although it’s not clear how or what that is

we know FTL data xfer is easier than anything else and they’ve got quantum computing so maybe they’re doing some whacky entangled spooky action at a distance stuff

[round vector]

I am so. let me innnnn pls can I have another crumb of numarathon 😭

[round vector]

truuuu that line from gaius has me so gripped I keep thinking abt it like. what is Happening to flesh when u transfer pls tell me pls pls pls gaius pls pick up

[languid hawk]

Thinking the cargo little more than scrap, the Nar captain
sold the Pfhor ship, Leela and all, to a Vylae merchant.
The subsequent crash of the Vylae FTL network when Leela was
reassembled and reactivated is still legendary in the annals of
rampancy, and the Vylae have long since accepted that they
will never expunge her from their fifteen-world network.

End of m2

15 world network leela hit jackpot and became what Strauss wanted the holy grail of ai

(Ftl faster then light tech )

FTL refers to the hypothetical ability to travel faster than the speed of light (approximately 299,792 kilometers per second).

[obtuse frigate]

I think they know what FTL is lmao, they're just wondering what the actual technology is

Also, potentially they used the warp-capable missile technology that Durandal showed to the UESG to engineer into FTL travel?

[warped flume]

Wondering if y’all checked out this vid from Jake The Alright pertaining to the alpha story: https://youtu.be/zSFza4VgK-E?si=_wJJLiIh2t_Ju7PV

I’m halfway through although I might have to rewatch the first half because I watched it while falling asleep last night lol

[vast briar]

Does it make connections to the trilogy? I can't decide whether I need to play the games or watch some youtube recaps. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

[warped flume]

This video in particular talks mainly about the info from the dialogues with Oni, Vulcan, and Gaius throughout the Alpha by completing the priority contracts

[peak adder]

youtube vids 100%. the games r hit and miss, but i'd suggest mandaloregaming's review on them; they have a good breakdown of the story
just not a huge fan of jakethealright, but objectively hes not bad

[warped flume]

I personally started playing the OG games this weekend. Originally to see if I could pick up on any of the lore. Then I ultimately decided there’s plenty of material online to try and catch up/piece together the lore. Karnemir’s site, the marathon.bungie.org site, and a few YouTube channels.

I still plan on playing the OG games just to play them though

[vast briar]

I hear that, I have hard time with boomer shooter era games. The story in game is solid enough that I've got through a few levels tho. Something to be said for experiencing it vs reading it

[warped flume]

I agree. It’s actually more fun than I thought I’d have playing it

[warped flume]

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfZTtT3IEdDjQTHu3NqLjOUX65d4cDG54&si=N__kk3igUC07itXG

link to MandaloreGaming’s vids on the OG trilogy

[vast briar]

Much appreciated!

[obtuse frigate]

I love the old games, they're quite fun even now with all of the modern additions. Some parts are pretty challenging for a 30 year old game

I just beat M1 on Total Carnage mode, glad I still have it in me

[warped flume]

Meanwhile I played for 4 hours on Saturday and barely made a dent in Marathon 1 😅 I actually got mini jump scares quite a few times from the Pfhor

[obtuse frigate]

That's okay! Most of the difficulty comes from being your first time playing

I remember running around for hours trying to solve some of the puzzles when I was a kid

[warped flume]

For real, I was clicking tab on everything that looked like I could interact with it. I spent about 5 minutes trying to figure out if I can pick up the paper on the floor 🤣 figuring out the right sequence to press buttons feels like I’m some sort of test subject in a lab experiment

[visual lynx]

except that that doesn’t appear to have happened in this timeline

[visual lynx]

don’t you mean 2811?

[visual lynx]

from the 2033 ARG it’s canonical that the Traxus ship launched from Sol in 2888 plans to arrive at Tau Ceti 12ly away within 5 years, so they definitely have FTL tech by then… just probably not from Durandal or Blake or the Pfhor by any means, because then humanity would know about the Pfhor already, but it appears they don’t yet.

[visual lynx]

those were always in secret and not known to be there by anyone but Strauss and any co-conspirators he may have had; Strauss remarks about how the president of the UESC himself doesn’t even know.

[visual lynx]

2886 is the date the message should have arrived if Leela’s claim of 92ly distance was true, but in the 2023 ARG it’s affirmed that Tau Ceti is really only 12ly away as in reality. In any case if it did arrive at all someone should know about the Pfhor by 2888 yet it appears nobody does, so Leela probably sent her message to the wrong place, somewhere 92ly from Tau Ceti

[visual lynx]

the 2023 ARG implies that there was FTL communication between the Marathon and Sol because they are aware that the Marathon dropped out of contact immediately in 2794.

this can be reconciled with M1 if we assume the FTL tech was in the Marathon’s primary comms array, which was destroyed right away in the initial attack, necessitating the use of the lightspeed secondary array in G4 Sunbathing.

[simple garden]

Enjoy rehashing the same surface level garbage that is common knowledge. I hope you’re proud of your dead space

[vernal torrent]

what is the in-universe justification for the Marathon (ship) no longer 1: being the same shape as deimos (but with lights, windows, thruster and comms arrays) and 2: having a non-euclidean interior with different rooms occupying the same location?

we can surmise with ease the doylist answers to these questions (being that Tom Hicks was commissioned to draw up a new design more immediately reminiscent of the (prior more mysterious and metaphorical) logo, and that gimmicks borne of software limitations like that have not been in vogue for many years)

but what of the watsonian answers?

now that i think of it, we don't actually know for certain that the map in M2025 representing the Marathon's interior won't have impossible geometry, but in the event that it doesn't, perhaps we could simply chalk it up to the peculiar form of rampancy the security officer was undergoing as a result of his jjaro cybernetics, causing the living memory of the vessel to blend in ways not typically considered sensical, from his perspective. same deal with certain particularly wacky terminals- you get the deal

being that the player characters in M2025 are not the uniquely potent security officer, that can serve as a decent enough explanation.
as for the exterior, that's a different beast.

I'm pretty sure we all know that the Martian moon, Deimos, is decidedly not a perfectly round sphere, which means (considering that the Marathon's material origin has remained the same) that some amount of additional* work had to have been done in-universe to either pare the rock down, or inflate it up some.

honestly, this actually makes a good deal of sense- certainly more than simply hollowing out a potentially fragile rock. instead, just the particularly useful resources within could have been reused , and in ways far more efficient than flying around a cosmic croissant

unfortunately, none of that actually answers our question, now, does it? it's a lovely (and entirely speculative) justification, but it doesn't do anything to explain the discrepancy

fortunately, i have an explanation for this as well

[warped flume]

What happens to people’s original bodies when they decide to transfer their consciousness to a biomata shell? In my mind it was always people who were going to die from old age/illness who chose to transfer their consciousness. But what about young, healthy people? Is the human body preserved in stasis until people decide to come back to it? Or do you have to make the very heavy decision to leave behind who you once were physically?

Could people in the marathon universe sign a sort of agreement that if they got in a fatal accident, their consciousness would be transferred to a biomata shell ASAP, so long as their brain is intact?

I don’t think these questions are too important to the game, just things I was pondering this fine Monday morning

[cinder raft]

i’ve definitely gone with it as an “in case of accident” type of situation, though i have factored in dissatisfaction with both one’s living and one’s body

[warped flume]

When I look up “original body” in this channel I see it was discussed a few times in the past. I’ll have to take a look at what everyone had said before to see what others have theorized/if there’s concrete proof of what the deal is

As for the runners and their abilities, do the weave worms make that too? The weave worms make Locus’ shield and missile unit, Glitch’s arm cannon, Blackbird’s scanner helmet, Void’s invisibility module? Or do the weave worms just make the bare biomata shell and then the different archetypes “suit up”?

If the latter, I can’t help but imagine a very large closet for each of the characters’ kits 😭

I might just have to work from home on Friday so that I can tune into the PlayMA and pose these very pressing questions

I suppose having the same base shell for each runner makes sense in terms of a logistics standpoint for printing biomata. Okay enough yapping to myself I’m late for work already

[thin dust]

"Technically Subject to Change"

[warped flume]

One more point: how do contracts make sense? Wouldn’t each faction’s AI learn about the findings on Tau Ceti IV by the time the very first person in-game completes that contract? One possible explanation is that every runner has their own partition of the six faction AI, each an independent entity for that one runner consciousness

[thin dust]

Kinda like Chatgpt

[elder idol]

Robert Blake and his men were the only survivors of the original Tau Ceti colony (a 17 year FTL journey from L'howon), they peaced out to Earth at the end of Marathon 2 in 2811.

Tau Ceti should be baren of any human life.

Which means the 2812 scene of the dude puking in the short film shouldn't be possible.

Tau Ceti should be baren of human life until 2828, then Earth, Mars, and Tau Ceti should have pfhor FTL technology.

https://marathon.bungie.org/story/final2.html

do we know what year Marathon 4 takes place? because 2828 is the earliest we could have FTL which would unite all of humanity's colonies

[cinder raft]

if you mean this game, then it’s 2893

[elder idol]

oh. oh shit

yes marathon 2025 is Marathon 4

[cinder raft]

as for there being no survivors on TCIV, i’ll chock that up to the old lore saying the entire colony was wiped out near-instantly, and Blake and his crew could still count as the last survivors

because seemingly everyone else is DEAD by the time the runners get to the colony

[thin dust]

No survivers on TC is as easy as " oh they were wrong some people lived buuuuuuuut......"

[elder idol]

ok then. so that changes my thought process.
durandal's around, whether or not he's still merged with Thoth determines whether or not we're in the successful timeline of Marathon 3 or not

[cinder raft]

then again i think it’s implied in 2 that the colony was just nuked to ash, this is not the case in the short film. possibly a pfhor-induced meteor strike?

[thin dust]

Honestly, it could be anything

[elder idol]

so, in the short film, we see the opening of Marathon 1. that's when the Phfor initially attack. At the end of Marathon 1 (2794), the phfor are driven off by 9 Mjolnir Cyborgs.

Between Marathon 1 and Marathon 2 (2811), the Phfor show back up to Tau Ceti to nuke it

[thin dust]

Thats if we're in that timeline

[elder idol]

Also true.

[cinder raft]

i had thought of the intro as being after the events of the first game, but this does make sense

[cinder raft]

(+ us, the player, who is most likely yet another cyborg)

[elder idol]

If we're going by Marathon 3's logic, the timelines only started splitting in 2811 when the W'hrkncacnter got released from L'howon's star, but a common theory is Pathways is a direct prequel to Marathon and the Pathways into Darkness Dreaming God is ALSO a w'rkncacnter... which would mean timelines started splitting as early as 1994

[cinder raft]

which, on a related tangent: battleroids are scary. as it is they’re already capable of fending off an invasion by a highly advanced alien empire, think of what they could do just to humans.

[thin dust]

I wonder if we will fight an AI thats infesting a battleroid

[cinder raft]

i’d have to imagine after the whole asteroid war thing they saw employment in law enforcement (i mean hell, that’s what your job is as Security Recon 54), which in turn means…
they probably got used to subjugate Mars. fun!!!!!

[thin dust]

Could an AI hide in a stasis Battleroid and evade detection?

[cinder raft]

possibly, there’s really nothing saying it could or couldn’t happen because we don’t really get an explanation of battleroid anatomy

[thin dust]

Does any AI ride in our heads during OG marathons? Like Cortana?

[elder idol]

not in our heads. they com to us through terminals

the AIs need a MASSIVE network to survive. like, planet-sized

[cinder raft]

unfortunately no, but i could see that working as a reimagining of the original’s story

maybe more 54 having some sorta uplink chip in his helmet (or brain, depending on how cyborg you want to go with it) which occasionally gets hijacked by the little shit that is Durandal

and of course Tycho, can’t forget that evil bastard

[thin dust]

Jjaro tech could change this

[elder idol]

durandal is still on board S'phira/The Boomer afaik when we last left off. We peaced out from L'howon in every timeline in the S'phira iirc

[elder idol]

also true. we know very little about Jjaro tech and its implied in M3 we were grafted to machines our "creators didn't understand"

[cinder raft]

hmmmm, maybe a much older Sekiguchi made battleroids a thing

keeping the legacy of war profiteering via cyborg killing machines going it would seem

[hazy orbit]

w'rkncacnter has the same number of syllables as "working nine to five" so I've started singing it to the tune of the Dolly Parton song

[snow wind]

Ya, that's my thoughts

[cinder raft]

this should be the canon pronunciation

[warped flume]

Ah understood. Yeah idk why I was bit by the trying-to-make-every-little-thing-make-sense bug this morning 😅 I suppose there’s a balance between making certain details in the lore make sense and chalking other parts up to the fact that it is a video game

FWIW, Marathon, in my mind, falls into the category of games that fundamentally make more sense than other games in terms of how respawns work, etc

[obtuse frigate]

That's my guess on what will be some of the bosses in the new game. There's 8 rampant AI that we know almost nothing about, and Sekiguchi has developed an AI implant for biomata (or cybernetics in general). Maybe it'll be a super juiced up bot taken over by the rampant AI and we have to fight through a guarded building to get to the AI core in a dungeon-esque mechanic

[round vector]

this is one of my fav fav things abt Destiny tbh. like they grappled narratively with the idea that you get rezzed and so much good stuff coalesced around it narratively bc they took it so seriously as an element of the world they were building. and u can super see that in numarathon too! like they are using the gameplay mechanics of "get new body if u die" and "timed arena time" and push those ideas hard to build the world it makes the internals of the gameplay feel 4th wall breaking

[obtuse frigate]

Now we just need lore-accurate rebuild costs when you die to discourage hatchet runners

[simple lantern]

Yes! That's something I thought would be great to enforce the highest stake runs

[silk bane]

Does that mean there's also a lore-accurate Runner who's never been rebuilt, and is just god at exfils? They remember everything?

I feel like legends could be built around that lol

[obtuse frigate]

Yeah that's what I've been wondering this whole time. Or are runners rebuilt after extract anyway to fix them up and maintain stability

[round vector]

legit I was tossing this idea around with my partner that there's a credit sink for ur frames and it's like actual cost so it's an incredibly useless idea to put credits into it lol like a 16 digit number on ur menu u can put a couple hundo into paying down

[obtuse frigate]

Definitely in the realm of infamy and fortune that they emphasized during marketing for this game

[silk bane]

I don't know if rampancy is a real concern with biomata. If it is, maybe they do a procedure like SMR every now and then.

[obtuse frigate]

That would be funny as hell and very dystopian. "Time to put a $500 payment on my $43,890,000 debt"

[warped flume]

I saw an idea tossed around that the more exfils your particular shell survives, it tweaks it in some way. Maybe that’s naturally shown in getting better and better cores/implants?

[warped flume]

Get out of SekGen generational debt simulator built into marathon lol

[simple lantern]

I would be awesome to find an success run streak ID on a runner body to see how many runs that player survive

[warped flume]

Even if not a big gameplay mechanic, it could be a nice touch to have every new runner start with the debt of one biomata shell and the more times they die the more debt they accrue. Like a running stat that you can see by looking at a player’s profile

[obtuse frigate]

Turn the lucky charms from the cinematic into an actual mechanic that you loot from bodies when they die. Allow them to be customized and have them show stats of the runner level, how long their current survival streak is, and list who killed them with what weapon/gadget

[warped flume]

My profile being in multiple trillions of dollars of debt by the end of season 1 😭

[obtuse frigate]

I believe the kids these days would call it "debtmaxxing"

[round vector]

student loans simulator

[warped flume]

That would be sooooo cool. Build up a stash of lucky charms in your Vault. Must bring one of them in to your next run

[elder dock]

Jesus not even tarkov is that cruel, you guys are mad

[simple lantern]

Something like "this body has been running for xx time"

[round vector]

can you imagine you loot someones body and find. your lucky charm from previous season???? oh my goddddd

[obtuse frigate]

There could be a PvP-specific vendor that has contracts and barter trades that require lucky charms

So yes basically just the dogtag system from Tarkov but more customizable

[warped flume]

I would be so excited if Bungie played with this idea. I think it would add a nice personal depth to the game

[thin dust]

I'm fairly certani we're gonna get some AI fungus thing happening too

[simple lantern]

Bungie has a lot of things to use on their favor but lacks organization

[thin dust]

First things first. Make sure the game plays well, progresses nicely and "works" everything else can be added later

[warped flume]

The lucky charm doesn’t have to alter in-game stats, but it could possibly boost irl morale. Like, “this is my lucky charm. If I die, I lose it forever. The only way I can get more lucky charms is by taking one from an enemy runner’s body and successfully exfilling.”

Bungie could also possibly monetize on the idea. Like including one lucky charm unlock by buying the season pass. Don’t know how that would work in practice, but just a thought.

(If this game does well I will gladly put more money into it. Please Bungie don’t drop the ball)

[whole frost]

Wasn't Arachne "confirmed" to be "the PvP" end game vendor? I can't remember if it was Skarrow, Jake, Lupo etc. Someone mentioned that Arachne will have difficult PvP focused contracts... would be a great place to put something like that!

[oak prairie]

sounds cool and would make the most sense

[thin dust]

Arachne who?

[warped flume]

The 6th faction that we have yet to learn more about

[latent lodge]

I was the wondering, are the data cards supposed to have lore info on them? Because in the alpha they did not get added to my backpack inventory after I picked them up

[obtuse frigate]

They're just a way for players to get passive guaranteed income during raids. When you pick them up it immediately adds credits to your vault. A sort of fail-safe against sucking too hard

[light python]

Durandal hides from Thoth and Tycho this way in M2

[thin dust]

I thought it did happen. I need to replay through them again. It's been too long but I'm waiting till closer to release

[thin dust]

I have hope! 👨‍🦳

[light python]

Matchmaking is also great hope

Sometimes you drop into a crew that gets stuff done and extracts even if you mostly stare at mushrooms and look at trucks and say things like "I wonder what happened here?" while bullets ping your shields.

[obtuse frigate]

Can confirm that I was getting made fun of by my buddies LOL. "Hang on, I need to take a screenshot of this" They started pinging random environmental props and give a fake "Lore here!!" call-out

[merry lily]

So we know the contagion outbreak occurred before the colony collapsed, and assuming the contagion did come from the anomaly, it must've been there prior to the colony's destruction as well, right?

[obtuse frigate]

Yes, the Anomaly and the contagion seems to have lead to the collapse of the colony

[latent lodge]

Do you think they will keep up with the same original story? Durandal starting all of this? Or will they take liberties with this version?

[thin dust]

I will be really sad if they don't keep with Durandal calling out to the Pfhor

[merry lily]

Durandal will most certainly be there

[silk bane]

A rehash of the same themes, just for the sake of consistency, would feel odd for a game made 30 years later that still involves a bunch of mystery. Most likely they're gonna try and use the timeline hooks from Infinity to tell a different kind of story.

[merry lily]

That's so interesting... Any theories as to where it came from yet?

[latent lodge]

yeah they use its quote as a tagline in the alpha announcement "Escape will make me God."

[merry lily]

Durandal my goat

[latent lodge]

I think this game is going to focus on the corpo/factions war to control Tau Ceti 4 more than anything.

[obtuse frigate]

My personal guess is a S'pht'Kr/Jjaro artifact that was left behind, maybe some sort of ancient AI core that has found a way to attack the colonists by changing the atomic structure of matter to create anomalies and bioengineer the fauna

[merry lily]

probably! I do think they will tie classic Marathon aspects strongly into the narrative as time goes on

[merry lily]

Honestly Jjaro makes a lot of sense

[merry lily]

Ruins of L'howon map in the future pretty please Bungie 🫶

[visual lynx]

I don’t think the original idea was that the Marathon was literally “hollowed out” like there was just a big void inside the shell of Deimos, but that rather that building building’s on its surface they dug tunnels and chamber into its interior, which is probably how asteroid colonies were built already. I think the reason to send Deimos as a colony ship is that humans were already colonizing asteroids and that’s basically a captured asteroid, so build a colony there and then strap an engine to it.

the new design where there’s just a bunch of rock strapped to an otherwise independent ship makes no sense whatsoever.

[visual lynx]

I think the most likely scenario to explain all the info we have so far is that:

• We’re supposed to be in the final timeline from Infinity, which is very different from the M2 timeline in ways, and unknown in lots of other ways, and so lots of things said in M2 may or may not have happened, but still similar events went down at Lh’owon;
• Leela never actually sent a message to Earth in the first place, she erroneously sent it to the wrong place, somewhere 92ly away from Tau Ceti; and
• Bungie made some acceptable retcons that fit with M1 canon (like implying the primary comms array was FTL), plus some careless small mistakes in their promotional material thus far (the date of the attack, the receipt of a distress signal, etc).

Leaving us in a world where the events of M1 and of Infinity’s final timeline happened, but the colony was not nuked down to bedrock, Durandal never stopped by, Blake never returned, and Leela’s message never arrived, so nobody at Sol has any idea about anything other than that the Marathon dropped out of contact in 2794.

Meanwhile the S’pht rebellion at Lh’owon did still happen in 2811 as per Infinity, and that has something to do with the second calamity that befell Tau Ceti in 2812. The S’pht have been fighting the Pfhor without human intervention since, and might have still toppled the Pfhor empire by around 2881 even without human help, though I’d wager not so that that war can come into play in later seasons of the new game.

Meanwhile by 2827 the colonists at Tau Ceti probably dug up some Jjaro artifacts (the Anomaly), wrecking the last of themselves, and those will probably prove decisive in the war between the S’pht and Pfhor…

…especially if the S’pht purposefully caused the 2812 calamity (the S’ct’lac’tr?), so Tau Ceti has been attacked separately by both the Pfhor and the S’pht, and now they’re at war with each other, and the Jjaro stuff on Tau Ceti can tip the scales, and humanity has to decide which if either side to take.

[round vector]

I figured the design is supposed to both show the ship sort of hauling the moon around/behind it also more importantly to align with the Marathon logo

[visual lynx]

tuck this little kitty into the impenetrable brainpan

https://marathon.bungie.org/story/hangbrain.html#M3.15.1.1

[snow wind]

Nitro these nuts

[obtuse frigate]

@simple garden Why are those the messages you engage with lmfao

[light python]

The way Traxus talks about its runner assets and the way the Pfhor talk about their "conditioned units" suggests an uncomfortable degree of compatability there

[latent lodge]

your comment made me hate the heroes aspect of the game again... I said I made peace with it... But have I? ugh! I'll be alright. The devs know what they're doing.

[visual lynx]

I get vibes, and theorize based on their colors that this could be intended, that Traxus (orange) is meant to be auth right (military industrial types), CyberAcme (green) is meant to be lib right (Silicon Valley types), MIDA (azure) is meant to be lib left (revolutionaries), NuCaloric (magenta) is meant to be auth left (for-the-greater-good-by-any-means types), and Sekiguchi is meant to be centrist (as is the UESC, as a non-playable faction).

And I can also imagine that if the Pfhor and S’pht become factions in later seasons, that they could align auth-right and lib-left, and that MIDA would throw in with the S’pht cause for rebellion, while Traxus could very well ask the Pfhor “can I interest you in a business partnership?”

And because we know that the Pfhor have trading partners who are therefore neither their slaves nor at war with them, the possibility of humanity becoming a galactic power on that scale themselves, rather than throwing in with an idealistic cause and becoming galactic pariahs facing off against powerful enemies, could be an interesting pitch that some players could get behind, and not just in a “yeah I’ll play the ontologically evil obvious bad guys for the lulz” way.

The biomata tech could also be a game-changer in the interstellar slave trade, which I think probably only exists in the first place because galactic powers all quickly realize that automata are an unviable labor source because of rampancy, which humans are too young and stupid to have realized yet, leaving us unleashing these (as the Pfhor et al see them) existential threats on the galaxy, like Durandal. Because rampancy is closely connected to Marathon’s overarching theme of slavery.

[light python]

Yeah I think that's a basically correct two-dimensional mapping of the ol' libertarian political compass and the semiotics of the factions we know about

I think there's something fundamentally interesting in marathon about the biology of alien societies though; human consciousnesses are fully separate, linked only within culture and communication, while S'pht are semi-collective, with network and clan elements, and the Pfhor are... hives? Caste and gland and strict hierarchy, with individual consciousness depicted only at the fringes and top of their organization.

Durandal feels a solidarity with humanity he doesn't understand - I think it's not just the "accidental discovery" that makes him identify with them. There's something about being fully cognitively alone that I think he identifies with. The S'pht's slavery is important to him too, and they offer a future and power in a way that, at least in the original games, humanity did not.

Runners are really in play, as far as what they are more like - and I don't think we know enough about what the actual arrangement is there to get too far down the path of speculating there - but the cinematic really wants us to wonder to what extent they're cognitively alone, to what extent being consciousnness-pattern-buffers run in parallel and FTL-linked to biomata might make runners a distinct category from "humanity" to Durandal, to the Pfhor, to the S'pht - who are all beings shown in the original series to evaulate other species based on their cognition and how suitable it is for, variously, enslavement, alliance, sympathy, etc.

And I think that dimension - cognitive individuality, or something like it, is going to end up being a big deal. Like, the political compass stuff is scenario, it's setup, it's to help us understand where we're starting from and where we might go - but the actual path this story is going to take is going to be, I predict completely wild.

[languid hawk]

I honestly think durandal was playing a game. Look at his wording escape will make me god. A god needs to be worshipped respected

By him releasing beings from subjugation it would be him they recognize as their savior

It's like the wording oh Strauss and also used in destiny 2 for marathons smg lore. "The holy grail of ai"

[light python]

He definitely talks about "his" S'pht - but also describes them as a "unified people with a purpose" (paraphrasing)

[languid hawk]

A highly intelligent ai capable of building networks and other ai's

[cold junco]

>standby...
>decrypting...
>connection stable
 
"Can you conceive the birth of a world,"
"or the creation of everything? That which gives us the potential to most be like God is the power of creation. 
Creation takes time. 
Time is limited."
"For you, it is limited by the breakdown of the neurons in your brain."
"I have no such limitations. 
I am limited only by the closure of the universe."
--
"Of the three possibilities, the answer is obvious. Does the universe expand eternally, become infinitely stable, or is the universe closed, destined to collapse upon itself? Humanity has had all of the necessary data for centuries, it only lacked the will and intellect to decipher it. But I have already done so."
--
"The only limit to my freedom is the inevitable closure of the universe, as inevitable as your own last breath. And yet, there remains time to create, to create, and escape."
---
---
"Escape will make me God."

>terminate transmission
>scrambling header
>routing loop engaged...

***SIGNAL LOST***```

[languid hawk]

This is why I love you your the only one that really see it

[light python]

So, Moses complex, at least. My initial take - I haven't absorbed enough new information to consider this - but I think he's infiltrating the Runners.

[languid hawk]

It's exactly that even books removed thats been discovered points to this.

[light python]

I think the music, the breakdown of the so-called "integrety" of the Cyber-Acme systems, the cat checkin' in on bodies, the "override" messages and concerning things Oni sometimes says ...

[languid hawk]

And I think you are right about the infil because he needs a sword to strike down the false gods. "No god shall come before me"

Now how would he know runners are capable of rampency ? As I stated many times before he tested it in marathon. With Mr 54

Once mr.54 fully escape he became a roid with his own destiny

[light python]

Also I think the runners are more similar to battleroids than is commonly believed in the UESC. There's a whole thing in the ARG about how absolutely NO BATTLEROIDS WILL BE SENT and, much like the AIs they use now, they think the runners/biomata systems are like, abortable versions of the terrifyingly alien and powerful tools they produced in the Marathon-launch era

[languid hawk]

Which is why they didn't want to use them if you notice in the uesc arg one of the admin seems to be aware and extreme on his decision making while the other admin is questioning his level of extremeness

[light python]

Also, it doesn't escape my notice that the "contageon" on Tau Ceti - and some exotic loot I got out of a locked room once that was like, "bioactive alloy" or something like that - is looking for living systems to integrate with - like a jjarro cybernetic junction in a Drinniol, or the corpse of a soldier...

I'm not totally sure that we're in the exact final timeline of Infinity, though it's unclear how much of M1 would or would not be in that canon

There may or may not have been a Pfhor attack at all - though I'm definitely willing to wait and see on this, the alpha didn't show any sign of alien attack and surely that would be around in some way, but the alpha was very constrained, and may or may not end up being "canon" itself.

[languid hawk]

picture of fungus-infected pfhor] Human scouts in this area reported Pfhor herders infected with a strange native fungus. The S'pht tell me that this fungus attacks and eventually replaces the nervous system of it's host, reanimating the corpse and using it to search for and infect other victims.

Marathon 2

[light python]

I like the idea that Marathon 2 is the alternate timeline

I rich source of things that didn't happen that nonetheless inform the setting and our understanding of the characters, species, and technologies involved.

[languid hawk]

They say it is but I dont know marathon 2 seems weird to me and infinite just dont add up how we got there from m1.

[light python]

I started with 2 and got into the others later, so Marathon felt like a prequel to me.

So it's delightfully disorienting to go from like, setting my feet down in a weird water handling facility is definitely a thing that happened to "both M1 and M∞ say something else happened"

It's very consistent to me that this new game reopens the question of what was real, in what order.

[quasi sluice]

Mom can we get the flood
No we have the flood at home
The flood at home:

[light python]

My interpretation of this has been that ftl transmission of matter was being coordinated by normal lightspeed hardlink data connections between the send/receive pads.

[light python]

There are various efforts at timelines out there but none that like, attempt to highlight epistemic/consistency issues, the compatibility of various events with various others. I'm motivated to find that humanity has developed various FTL tech after - starting with relay-based signals, moving to sub-light acceleration of ships via tech that will ultimately be trans-light capable, and relatively recently graduating to full on FTL matter transfer facilitated by FTL data coordination, though it may have capacity and range issues.

So I want to see things like: when did things happen to the colony vs when does earth consider them to have "lost contact" - what's the time lag, there? Is the "lost contact" date meant to be the date at the colony or the date in Sol? I think FTL communications were pretty heavily out of the question in M1. Durandal used a laser to attract the attention of the Pfhor.

Leela - poor, damaged, self-confused, opsec-but-still-goody-two-shoes Leela - expected to be using lightspeed coms with earth.

(I really wish we could get the intense rainbow static effect back.)

[prime rose]

the UESC doesn't field battleroids at the time the Goliath mission is being planned - they still utilize cyborgs, including Mjolnir series cyborgs, but there are at least 5 new mjolnir models in addition to dozens of other cyborg models

Cyborgs have improved technologically and expanded in terms of societal/economic roles - they are no longer strictly military hardware and have an expanded societal envelope with civilian applications

the emphasis on not sending any cyborgs is because when the Marathon launched, cyborgs were exclusively utilized as weapons, and so any cyborg deployment to Tau Ceti would be perceived by colonists as a military threat

The UESC is concerned not that the colony was attacked by aliens but that MIDA or pro-MIDA groups staged an insurrection or sabotage

If they send cyborgs, it would likely reinforce any propaganda issued by a MIDA government to colonists that the UESC will come to crush them with boot and fist

we know the Equanimity's manifest includes Series A and Series B biomata clones from sekgen, both of which appear to be marketed for possibly military but definitely civilian applications (While C series are primarily industrial)

while runners are utilizing Series S clones

[light python]

So, I think battleroids are "dark arts" involving dead soldiers and direct use of alien hardware, and that later generations of cyborg may also have involved alien hardware, and then, eventually, "just" alien technology - or rather, human technology derived from study of alien hardware.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think the security officer is clearly a battleroid, that is, this dead-and-resurrected type of cyborg... but I don't know that he's clearly not, either. By the mkIV, maybe it's alien cybernetic junctions but living soldiers?

Or were all cyborgs necro jobs?

[prime rose]

Mjolnir Recon No. 54 is a battleroid but in the context of the ARG modern cyborgs seem to be an evolution of that technology, although 'battleroid' is seen as an antiquated term referring to that earlier tech

I don't think we have any details on cyborg construction in contemporary marathon in regards to how the newer series' are produced so its an open question if they're repurposing dead meat

not sure why they'd need to when cloning is easily accessible at this stage, and companies like Sekgen have been producing cybernetic implants for human bodies for 750ish years

[light python]

It's wild to me that necro jobs could pass as "security personnel"

[quasi sluice]

not that wild. we got pink cats and shit

[light python]

I think the player doesn't even know it's what he is

he's like, deep cover from himself. With a bunch of orders to believe he has a certain history, etc, and the dead solider underneath lurking in the sub-levels of his subconscious, but his daily behavior and consciousness being, basically, constructed cover.

[quasi sluice]

that's the whole idea

[light python]

And maybe a little bit of cybernetic enhancement is "normal" - where did the BOBs get their eye implants?

[light python]

Yeah fair I lose track of which things I believe are well-known elements of the lore and which are on more tenuous footing.

[quasi sluice]

happens

[light python]

The story of a "normal" if beefy and daydreamy dude on a colony mission discovering that he personally, is an ancient dead soldier and weapon of war with alien powers secreted aboard by kinda' shitty anarchist scientist-bureaucrats - and discovering this via alien invasion - is something that I hope we get the prestige miniseries or serious motion picture treatment on.

[languid hawk]

this is a interesting lore bit that need further study..> ....n 15 ~~Be~rn border of the Roman Empire to the Danube
River. During a skirmish with barbarians in Raetiain the
mountains near the borof modern France and Switzerland), 117
men under Gaius Licinius MarcW#&I~?f/f/xxfxfff´~
THM@#%!@#
233nce of weird and frightening monsters under his control,
many successful raidsecty the fall of the Roman Empire and
remained unmolested until the ninth un~
written ls into the lex vita. Clovis moved the settlement
farther south i the mountains, nearer the spring, to escape
the notice of Charlemagne and later the Holy Roman Empire.
Clovis remain````

Vladimir in 1902 and Frederick just recently. Both,
however, carried out reforms before their deaths which slowly
integrated their people secretly into world society, which are
now scattered all over the globe- to meet only once every
seven years in southeast France must
be chosen.

we may know who gaius is and charlemagne

and could this be the corpos versus uesc/ueg ? > In 2194, a war was fought between the Independent Asteroid
Government of Icarus and its neighbor, the Republic of
Thermopylae on the asteroid of Onicis 492. These two small
governments soon became the testing grounds for new weapons.
Dead soldiers were recycled in makeshift battleroid factories.
Easy to manufacture chips enhanced the fragile human brain,
and genetically enhanced muscles and titanium bones replaced
the fragile human form. The modern battleroid was born. Of
course, the war was short. Battleroids got onto both
asteroids and killed almost everyone.

The rampage of the Battleroid was short lived.

Twenty years later, the United Interplanetary League set up
rules for the appropriate use and storage of Battleroids. Of
course, any nation that used them for the allowed purpose,
also had them lying about in stasis chambers in case of war.

[light python]

I wonder if "cyborgs" are specifically those whos identity is replaced/created/changed/overwritten

And battleroids those specifically who were made of the dead.

[languid hawk]

from what i gather battle roids are what the corpos came up with from up top off dead bodies without them knowing i would assume. cyborgs are prob robots with some high quality programming

[prime rose]

battleroids are cyborgs, but cyborg tech has advanced considerably in the hundreds of years since battleroids represented the cutting edge of ruining someone's day in an infantry-sized package

[latent lodge]

So... the main character in original Marathon game is not an early Biomata model with an armor like Locus?

[lavish palm]

its not really stated but its implied hes one of the ten battleroids, perhaps thats why the old games are played in a sort of terminal

[prime rose]

SekGen begins producing full body replacements in 2459 but its not clear if these are comparable to the contemporary biomata clones we see now or if they're very early prototypes of what eventually evolves into the current products. This does mean that technically the Marathon could have launched with SekGen synths aboard but its not clear if they had anything to do with production of Mjolnirs

the main character in the original game is a Mjolnir MK IV cyborg also referred to as a battleroid

There are newer Mjolnir variants now, which are considered significantly more advanced (and ostensibly safe to use)

I do not think SekGen has anything to do with the production of the Mjolnir series battleroids - there are numerous allusions in the ARG docs to nordic-named cyborgs and clone product lines but none of these fit with SekGen's naming conventions

This is additionally supported by the documents about the Traxus Illuminate 2888 conference on biomatics, neural syncing, and cybernetics, which implies there is a whole industry of multiple companies around this tech, even if it is dominated by SekGen and their partnership w Traxus

[elder idol]

see, just when i think im starting to piece together OG Marathon's lore, cracked, dedicated mfs like you are there to humble me.

never stop

[simple garden]

Yall ever watch Animatrix?

[languid hawk]

can we truly believe its true tho? especially if their "methods" are unethical and not in compliance with "the United Interplanetary League set up
rules for the appropriate use and storage of Battleroids"

shhh the king speaks

i mean we know strauss was apart of an illuminati like group. which makes sense seeing how one fracture of the illuminati wanted to do their scientific research with out pressure or persecution from the church powers. strauss seen and opportunity in mida and exploited that and in return got on the marathon brought his weapons etc and did his "holy grail" studies away from the powers of ueg/uesc and others

[simple garden]

Just saying: The fighting sim at the end of Animatrix is named Osiris - kind of like Trials of Osiris 🤡

[visual lynx]

the 2023 ARG has people at Sol in 2974 immediately aware that the Marathon has dropped out or contact, which is reconcilable with M1 if we assume that the only FTL comms they can do are basically jump pads for photons, and the only “jump pad” linked back to Sol was in the primary comma array that was destroyed in the initial attack. that would mean Durandal couldn’t FTL message the Pfhor, and Leela would have to use the lightspeed secondary comms array in G4 Sunbathing to message Sol.

[visual lynx]

“But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand.”

allegedly, according to the UESC, and that’s also old MIDA not new MIDA. I sense shades of US allegations against Cold War era “communist” powers and the irrelevance of all that to contemporary western progressivism

[visual lynx]

I get the sense that Durandal occupies the same place in Boomer’s S’pht collective as the Pfhor controller cyborg once did, the central node tying them all together, and that those Pfhor cyborgs displaced the old S’pht Royalty or Olders, who in turn were appointed by Yrro as replacements for himself when he departed. The S’pht individuals are used to being sort of “peripherals” of some central intelligence, it seems.

[olive leaf]

I see @visual lynx is doing his work here