9.2 Feedback and Discussion

[proper veldt]

Line it up with symbols

[steep rampart]

You'll basically just always dump it off on Shivs now for all 3 Soulbinds

lol looking at one of my Fetid logs for the Shuriken Toss thing, it did 9% of my damage in 1 single Shuriken Toss cast. Good times.

[azure pilot]

No max lvl dagger next tier?

[proper veldt]

Wdym

There’s a dagger being added on the 10th boss

[azure pilot]

Wait.. When did they add?

👀

[rocky carbon]

theres a blue post

[azure pilot]

Nvm gotta check it out

[molten ore]

i don't think it's in the dungeon journal yet

[dry night]

Except you could and almost always did do it with shiv since you held shiv for 12s or whatever if vendetta is coming up

[empty magnet]

talking about every shiv

not just one with vendetta

lol

[dry night]

Even with gemstones for the in between you could hold shiv i believe

but ye doesn't really matter since it always lines up now regardless

and we would use marileth now too so double doesn't matter

[steep rampart]

Keeeeviiin

[rose grail]

kevin done dirty by deathspike

[rose grail]

@proper veldt when you’re done with the outlaw players in the assa chan, did you run any of the NF stuff with vigor instead of DS?

[proper veldt]

no because vigor is terrible

I basically tossed it to the side almost instantly

[dry night]

Ye it doesn't give any meaningful cdr for dusk compared to running DS

[rose grail]

i forgot how slow ds is

[dry night]

Wym new opener is pretty quick

[proper veldt]

#916546791472783371 message

[rose grail]

not the regen itself. just everything overall. perhaps too much sub testing

and yes i get numbers wise it’s one exacta mutilate. 😂

[rose grail]

cat ears still does. he misses guy helping with apl

[proper veldt]

[wise blade]

Hello, how does Fae sync logic and Duskwalker in general compare to 2nd best leggo in case where Vend end up with 1:15 CD ? 1:05 ? have you done some testes with fixed amount of CDR ?

[dry night]

it doesn't so all good

[wise blade]

pardon ?

[dry night]

it shouldn't end up wwith 1:15 cdr unless you're messing something up

and even if it did we wouldn't take a second leggo over dusk for those niche use cases I'm pretty sure

cuz even in downtime when you're not hitting the boss you just spam fok for dusk cdr until you can get back on

[wise blade]

I want to know if Duskwalker is still the go to legendary even if for some reason you may have more than exactly 60s betwween vendetta

[dry night]

yes

the 2nd best is shadowdust

it's all in spreadsheet in pins

[wise blade]

My original question was if any comparison have been made with fixed amount of CDR such as only 45sec

but I'll trust you

I guess we'll see if the case present

[dry night]

ye i get what you meant but for NF sync logic would stay the samish

[wise blade]

you could be in the impossibility of using vendetta with 60sec inbetween, not because CD is not ready, but simply because boss is immune or CD must be hold for example

I wanted to know if I should expect playing another leggo in such encounter or if Dusk remains the go to

[dry night]

yeah i'm saying it would still be ddusk too lol

[wise blade]

kk

[dry night]

unless you can't hit the boss for a full minute or some weird shit

[mental barn]

exactly what you're asking for (sims with fixed amounts of cdr) won't exist because simc doesn't support any option to override duskwalkers behavior, you'd have to write an APL that intentionally didn't use vendetta when the CD was up

[wise blade]

but it can override vendetta

basically not using legendary and override vendetta CD to fixed duration

[pale roost]

The Night Fae logic does not change the fact that we will play Dusk everywhere, always.

We play Dusk regardless of legendary

Regardless of covenant

It's just the way the tier set is designed

which forces us to play Duskwalkers

everywhere

in all content

with every covenant

There is no universe where you wouldn't play Dusk, sorry.

[wise blade]

Well according to physics and probabilities there exists a universe in which you cannot press Vendetta button earlier than once every 2mn otherwise you instantly Die. Duskwalker may reduce your CD to 1mn, but you see the picture 😄

At the end, you gotta hold or you die :/

[mental barn]

just to point out the obvious, if you have a boss where you need to hold vendetta to use it every (some number between 1:00 and 2:00) well you need dusk just to make that happen at all. and if you need it every 2 minutes, well then you can accomplish that with dusk

[dry night]

then you'd be on the bench anyways

[pale roost]

Give me one example of where this happens.

I'll wait.

[wise blade]

gonna be hard to find, quantums you know

[pale roost]

Rip

[desert hull]

[steep rampart]

Haha I mean your example is not unreasonable in theory though. In terms of, yes, there is probably some tipping point where your effective CDR is not enough for it to be worth but I suspect it would have to be rather wasted

[mental barn]

the most convoluted example I can imagine is if you needed vendetta exactly every 2:40

but uh

[steep rampart]

Could just override the spell data for Dusk to reduce the power

Until you reached the neutral point

[wise blade]

Ok let's reformulate

imagine we use a Logic (sub-optimal obviously) where we sync Vend and Sepsis

we need dusk for that

[pale roost]

Why'

[wise blade]

does it make Dusk better than any other leggo ?

[pale roost]

The logic isn't what makes dusk better

like I said earlier

it's the tier set

[steep rampart]

However the reality is that minor delays to Vendetta probably play into the timing of Sepsis anyway so it probably offsets reasonably well up to some extreme case

[pale roost]

even if you full send

or never sync

or always sync

dusk is always better

it's not the "fae logic" that makes it better

timing might play a part where you might want to play something else

sure

but it's not the syncing logic that is the reason for that

it's the nature of a fight length

and how cdr works

[wise blade]

So you confirm that if I delay Vendetta to Sync with Sepsis every 1:30 (dusk allow that) then this use of Dusk is still better than any other legendary ?

[pale roost]

Yes

But

[steep rampart]

I mean I get what he is asking. It’s not an unreasonable question. I don’t think we have an answer for how frequently you would have to use Vendetta for it to be worth if you are delaying arbitrarily.

[wise blade]

Ok thanks

[pale roost]

Why would you do that

That's super unoptimal

and not worth

whatsoever

[steep rampart]

I assume it’s a thought experiment on say some fight where you had 90s damage phases or something

[wise blade]

yes that's exactly that point I was trying to find

It is possible than even delaying for 30sec still make it the better choice (looking at Dusk's actual numbers and 4P synergy)

[mental barn]

Like I said, the < 2 minute timings are super uninteresting because OF COURSE you use dusk if that's the timing

[steep rampart]

It would be easy enough to test with spell data overrides

But I don’t have a specific answer right now off the top of my head

[pale roost]

What encounter has a mechanic like this?

[steep rampart]

Probably Cev is right that the set bonus mechanics are strong enough that even 30s CDR would be worth

[wise blade]

Not really, it happens often that encounter are timed for 2mn CD, but not good for 1mn CD. Class with 1:30 cd in such case usually have to fire CD in unwanted timer and either loose a bit of value of have hard time playing that CD while still dealing with mechanics.

They can still fire every 1:30

but it's tougher

[mental barn]

we dont' have a 1:30 vendetta though

that's not reality

[pale roost]

wat

you press your Vendetta once every minute and Sepsis on cooldown

[wise blade]

Yes I think too but I wanted to know if anyone have tried to get numbers

[pale roost]

which allows you to sync Sepsis and Vend every 3 minutes

[steep rampart]

I would argue that since 1 vs 2 minutes subdivides in a way where this is unlikely to matter and the 90s option wouldn’t be possible without Dusk so there probably aren’t any likely downsides

[pale roost]

Vendetta being a shorter cooldown is super advantageous for most things

[wise blade]

There let's say phase 1 last for 1:15. Then there is a 15sec intermission and phase 2 start at 1:30. You gotta burst phase 2, so you gotta have CD ready at 1:30.

[pale roost]

You can send it much more freely without having to use too much brain power on syncing logic

[pale roost]

Sure, so you hold vend

Next

Just like you would in the current game

on Sylvanas

hold Vendetta

for the burns

?

[molten ore]

Did something change with the 9.2 sims on our end?

[pale roost]

Without Dusk you can't get to 1:30

With Dusk you can

thus

Dusk already wins by default

and now you give it EVEN MORE reason to win over other choices

because you want to have the cds up at 90s

[pale roost]

No.

Fae still best.

[molten ore]

Yeah I see that

But our raw dps dropped once again on the KA sheet

[pale roost]

The KA sheet is rigged

and awful

like super bad

they use an incorrect profile for it which fluctuates the number every day

it used to be at 13.4k dps previously

[molten ore]

I thought you guys talked to them

[pale roost]

which is absolutely absurd

yes

but why are you looking at the KA sheet

just look at our sims

[dry night]

ye the ka sheet super scuffed

[pale roost]

the KA sheet is scuffed

for all specs

not just assa

[steep rampart]

I got rid of the option on latest sims a few days ago

[pale roost]

literally every spec in that list is awful

[steep rampart]

So that's probably why it dropped

Instead of using 100% 2pc

[rose grail]

KA just going to get deleted. stop looking at it.

[pale roost]

the KA sheet even uses wrong timers for some specs

using KA at 0 seconds is not exactly the optimal way for Assa

still setting up the bleeds, once bleeds start rolling, it already drops

unlucky

[molten ore]

If it’s so scuffed why not ask them to remove our spec altogether

Or something

[wise blade]

I'm not trying to debate either Dusk is better or not or idk what you think I'm trying to do.

I wonder

1. At which point if you arbitrary forced to delay, duskwalker lose the podium ? This point exist, it's 60sec delay obviously.
2. In case where Dusk is better even with an arbitraty 30sec delay, by what margin is it better than 2nd best.

[pale roost]

why would they?

[molten ore]

Many people look at that sheet

[pale roost]

and why would we care enough

[molten ore]

For insight into 9.2

[pale roost]

It doesn't change anything in our spec

Or our sims

[steep rampart]

But the reality is like, Dusk is 10% right now for NF which means even if you halved the value it would be the same as most of the other legendaries so probably wouldn't overthink it at this point

[pale roost]

We have the correct information, that's what matters

not what some punk throws up at a blackboard

[mental barn]

even if you needed to use vendetta every 2 minutes, with dusk you could use it every 1 minute and still have it up at the critical point

[molten ore]

Your correct information isn’t as easily found then I guess

[mental barn]

the timings work out too well for this to be a problem

[wise blade]

Obviously you are not caring as much as I do about little things like that. But it's interesting

[pale roost]

I was talking about KA

not your point

[pale roost]

Then that's good news for us then I guess!

[wise blade]

interesting about the spec, about the impact of CDR on Vendetta, etc... I'm really just curious

[steep rampart]

I mean I have no issue with the question posed here, but I think the answer is "we don't have any information about a specific point where it becomes not worth, and there probably isn't one realistically due to the 4pc"

[pale roost]

All the losers will be left in the dust

[steep rampart]

But we can look into it some more

[pale roost]

and the elite Ravenholdt gang will have access to all the newest information

and sims

[molten ore]

Because I know of a lot of people who are predicting who should have KA next tier, what classes to bring, and even the raw dps outputs (I know this is incorrect, but people are doing it)

[pale roost]

And let them do it

If they rely on a spreadsheet made by a nobody, then go for it

It literally won't change anything

[wise blade]

If Duskwalker is still winning, by a large margin, using a sub-optimal logic where you basically just delay Vendetta to Sync with Shiv. It's crazy

I mean it's cool

[steep rampart]

Yeah and Max is gonna say Rogues suck and no Rogues will be brought to any WF comps and stack Warriors all day long so it won't really matter for those types of people anyway 🤣

[molten ore]

You guys literally said the other day they were a trusted individual in the fucking community

[pale roost]

I've never ever said that

It's a druid player

[wise blade]

what is KA ?

[pale roost]

I wouldn't assume that a druid knows

the apl

and sims

of every single spec in the game

because they don't

it's not a group project

it's a single dude

anyways

[molten ore]

I mean they’re taking RH sims and just adding the line for KA are they not?

[pale roost]

If your getting your knickers twisted by a KA spreadsheet, then go send him a dm

and ask him to correct the information

[pale roost]

No.

They are definitely not

Well, maybe they are now?

[steep rampart]

According to my charts here we're looking pretty bad for 9.2

[pale roost]

but they weren't before

[wise blade]

yeah yeah I know that no worry, it was a theorical exercise of think where you are arbitrary forced to not press the button for X sec.

Kindred Affinity ke

ok

[dry night]

I mean if you can't press vend for say 30s that's fine cuz it just means you sync more i guess

[mental barn]

do not use a CDR legendary if you are literally not allowed to press the button before its natural cooldown

you're welcome

[steep rampart]

Yeah I actually think it loses a non-linear value if you delay slightly

Because it leads to more sync

And blunts the loss

[dry night]

exactly

[steep rampart]

Still a loss but not like "50%" of the value like it might seem on paper

[molten ore]

Nah I’m not, but it’s literally pinned here in #wow-general yet a community figure is bashing the hell out of it. I’d assume either get it taken down or you guys should figure out your priorities correctly because maybe your own single opinion is just way off?

[steep rampart]

I think it'd actually be almost impossible in any realistic situation to lose enough value for it to become worse due to that

[wise blade]

F** KA then It has already been stated that neither PI, KA, Fae, whatever spreadsheet is relevant unless you start dynamically modify APLs of reciever AND sender of these external to work best

[steep rampart]

90s CD cycles likely don't lose enough

Something super niche like 100-110s cycles are degenerate cases you'd probably ignore

[pale roost]

what does this comment even mean?

[wise blade]

Let's say KA is even tougher because it may be SUPER STRONG on one target, but make druid loose damage which have to be factor in the maths, bla bla

[pale roost]

my opinion?

what's my opinion?

[wise blade]

tldr : f**k externals

[pale roost]

That the numbers, which you previously yourself mentioned, are wrong?

welp

They are not be-all-end-all

[molten ore]

[pale roost]

they are a point of reference

[molten ore]

Yeah I get that

But if they’re so wrong

[pale roost]

doesn't sound like it

[molten ore]

Why are they pinned

[pale roost]

what

[steep rampart]

I mean at one point the charts were theoretically valuable

[molten ore]

As a resource here

[pale roost]

I literally just said

that it can be good information for someone

[steep rampart]

And maybe at some point in the future they will be

[pale roost]

And some people can use them if they want

[steep rampart]

But right now it's fair to say they have messed them up so they aren't at the moment

[pale roost]

They are not super correct

[dry night]

I don't get why this is an arguement in the first place

[pale roost]

but neither are MOST of the apl's

[steep rampart]

And even if they were

[dry night]

the sheet has literally changed like 3 times in the last 2 weeks

[steep rampart]

9.2 tuning isn't remotely done so who cares

[pale roost]

literally most of the sims outside of the ones maintained by actual theorycrafters, are faulty

[wise blade]

Don't worry guys, one day we'll have Omega-Simcraft v12.3 release that will handle multi-actor simulations

[pale roost]

still we see sims posted for every spec

in simulationcraft

and in spreadsheets

[wise blade]

factoring every single externals

[dry night]

If your raid leader is deciding who gets KA based off of the sheet rn then they're just bad anyways

[pale roost]

even though most of the specs are not simming correctly because of poor apl

[wise blade]

with dynamically linked APLs

[pale roost]

it's why we always see warlock at the bottom of the simulationcraft list

[wise blade]

That compute what is the best timing and target to use externals in the entiere environnement

[dry night]

also

[pale roost]

and then suddenly everyone's playing affliction

and doing 100k dps single target

"but the list said that warlock is #8???"

[dry night]

yeah that

[pale roost]

most lists and spreadsheets are used for a point of reference

[steep rampart]

If anything, the CA charts are just gonna get CA nerfed because they basically show they are +1.5k DPS above Venthyr with the combined DPS factors which is a kinda unreasonable amount if Blizzard cares about Balance balance

[pale roost]

and it's a valuable tool for many

but that's all they are

they're not meant to be super duper accurate

and should always be taken at face value

[steep rampart]

Honestly think the CA chart at this point is more for Balance Druids than for anyone else

They are trying to figure out what the approx. value of Kyrian vs. Venthyr is

[pale roost]

It even has a massive disclaimer on it

[dry night]

At the end of the day though. Your local Enh shaman will be getting KA anyways so who cares

[molten ore]

You just made it seem like it was trash

[steep rampart]

Not trying to figure out which spec should get it for certain

[molten ore]

Now you’re changing your tone

So

[steep rampart]

I mean it is trash in a lot of ways for any spec-based evaluation

[molten ore]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[pale roost]

Go get some fresh air

[steep rampart]

But that's not what it is for

People are kinda using it wrong, which is fine. But at this point in the patch cycle these numbers don't really matter much at any rate.

[pale roost]

It's a good tool to see how it does in comparison to other specs, but not as a standalone tool for your spec - just like I've been saying all this time.

But yeh

[molten ore]

Only thing I came in wondering was why our dps would’ve changed at all, and you went to bashing the list and the creator

[pale roost]

This is not the KA spreadsheet thread so I'm stopping it here.

[steep rampart]

Our DPS changed because I made it impossible to have bad 2pc values in the latest version of SimC and they were using the pre-balanced 100% 2pc value

[mental barn]

exiled to the druid discord

[dry night]

so uhh anyways #reworkdeathspike amiright

[steep rampart]

The previous damage figure for Assassination was totally bogus due to that

[molten ore]

That was already changed before the latest change afaik. Weird

Yeah they fixed that earlier this week iirc but for some reason it dropped again. At first was just curious about this

[pale roost]

It fluctuates very often

Several times a week

[wise blade]

why dafuq is KA now a thing every where every one talk about it

all boomy I talked to told me "f**k KA we won't play kyrian"

[pale roost]

Because of the Kyrian legendary they got in 9.1

It's the biggest external in the game.

[wise blade]

that was unused because shadowed by venthyr

[dry night]

welcome to 2022 sin

[wise blade]

and venthyr get huge nerf so they consider

ok

[rocky carbon]

rdruid and bear exist

[pale roost]

More like the strength of it wasn't known previously

[wise blade]

no they don't

[rose grail]

2x legos now. free ka

[wise blade]

KEK

was just joking ^^

[pale roost]

Boomies still very rarely use it

Most KA's are restos or bears

[rocky carbon]

next tier they might tho

[wise blade]

ok ok

I see so Rdruid get PI

but still doesn't have everything else that make Disc a good healer

[pale roost]

PI?

PI's for scrubs

[wise blade]

omega-PI

[pale roost]

yeh

[molten ore]

Our boomies are basically 100% going Kyrian if the gains are worth

[pale roost]

It just feels pretty awful to play

Because it's a pretty dead button to press

Convoke feels great to press, KA not so much

[molten ore]

Idk man

[pale roost]

Number goes high, but that's it

[molten ore]

The haste it gives them from NF is apparently nice

[pale roost]

Ah fair enough

I guess I've only tried KA on Venthyr boys

[molten ore]

We’ve tested it on PTR

[pale roost]

and as a Feral

[wise blade]

So KA is basically necessary cast on friendly target anyway so everyone in the WoW community is working hard with the maths to know for sure who is the KA big-winner ?

I'm trying to summerize that KA thing

[molten ore]

Yeah kinda

[rocky carbon]

KA like also buffs the boomie though

[molten ore]

Yeah

[wise blade]

oh yeah

it's harder maths than PI obviously iirc

[rocky carbon]

at a cost of not having ravenous frenzy or convoke

[molten ore]

It has like a “total raid gain dps” difference usually favoring melee

[wise blade]

the best use the guy do with KA, the more the druid get out of it right ?

[rocky carbon]

not exactly

[pale roost]

Not really

[molten ore]

Not necessarily

[wise blade]

why can't it just be "yes" or "no"

[pale roost]

Go read about it

[molten ore]

Hahaha

[rocky carbon]

the druid just needs to target an nf so they get haste

thats it

[wise blade]

oh ok let me guess

[molten ore]

Also melee I think mostly nets better raid damage % total

[wise blade]

the effect is depending on the covenant of the target

and they want NF targets

[molten ore]

The usual stop to that is fire mage

[wise blade]

that's it ?

[molten ore]

Yeah

It gives people different secondary stats based on cov

[pale roost]

melee allows for Mikanikos to proc, which allows for more cdr on KA

which allows for more usage of KA

which allows for more damage

[molten ore]

Their Mika procs of our melee?

[pale roost]

No

[wise blade]

hence why all that talk about KA and Assa Rogue I get it now

[pale roost]

When they use KA, it procs the Mikanikos CDR portion around your character

But it's a melee effect

[molten ore]

Because I thought it was whatever I saw in details, some sorta Kyrian link damage % was actually in details

[rocky carbon]

oh that makes sense

[pale roost]

Or like a small effect around you

Like a small aoe damage thingy around you

[rocky carbon]

thats from boomie and feral KA

they give you damage

[pale roost]

And if that hits, the cdr gets reduced

[rocky carbon]

based on what damage theyre doing

[pale roost]

If it doesn't hit, it doesn't get reduced

[molten ore]

[wise blade]

Any chance Feral go Kyrian ?

[pale roost]

This one

[wise blade]

If feral go Kyrian my friend will KA myself for sure

[pale roost]

4-20s cdr from the effect hitting targets

[steep rampart]

I mean as I mentioned that's literally the main reason for this spreadsheet. It isn't really for specs to epeen over who is best for KA, it's for Balance Druids to figure out if it's worth them going Kyrian vs. Venthyr with their raid comp.

atm the advantage is pretty huge so probably will

unless they nerf it

[wise blade]

I see, thank you for explaining

[mental barn]

the 20% dmg transfer from kindred spirits is wildly overcomplicated to explain

[steep rampart]

Also realistically it's harder than even the sheet makes it out

Because obviously the value of it is associated with the Covenant of the target

And Covenants for class profiles might change

e.g. Outlaw is low on the chart because Outlaw profiles are likely Kyrian

And Kyrian Druids don't want to buff Kyrians

[wise blade]

And there is no reference for NF Outlaw profile

[steep rampart]

Because the Mastery buff is lame compared to the other three

[pale roost]

I think the mastery buff is bugged as well

[steep rampart]

I mean even if it worked right the budget of the Mastery one is literally half of the others

In rating terms

[wise blade]

But what about us

what do we get with that KA

[steep rampart]

It depends on Covenant

[wise blade]

the legendary give us something specific ?

as well ?

[pale roost]

bruh

just go read

what it does

what's with all the speculation and questions

just type that into google

and you get your answer

[steep rampart]

Kyrian: Mastery increased by 150.
Night Fae: Haste increased by 8%.
Venthyr: Critical Strike chance increased by 8%.
Necrolord: Versatility increased by 8%.

[wise blade]

sure

[steep rampart]

Problem is like

8% crit is over 300 Crit rating so you can see pretty clearly why the Mastery buff sucks

lol

[wise blade]

wait is that permanent ?

[mental barn]

note you get that stat ALL the time, and it doubles during the empowerment

[wise blade]

and doublet when they activate the bound

[steep rampart]

Yeah

[mental barn]

it's absurd

[steep rampart]

It's pretty wild

[wise blade]

But I mean, then there is a scaling effect

the best target is not "the best spec the spreadsheet says"

since there is gear, skill

[steep rampart]

yeah ofc

[pale roost]

yes exaclty

that's why you don't take it at face value

and that's why spreadsheets like those are not great

they give a good comparison

[steep rampart]

At the end of the day it's really just a guesstimate for them to try to figure out Covenant value for themselves

[pale roost]

but are not accurate in reality

[steep rampart]

But since atm Kyrian just wipes Venthyr off the map in almost every case

[wise blade]

yeah obviously they gotta start with something

[steep rampart]

It seems unlikely to matter

Unless they nerf CA at some point

I think it's literally only the lower DPS Kyrian targets that are below Venthyr Druid

[pale roost]

It's a sad world we live in

[steep rampart]

I suppose if all our Druids go Kyrian next tier I might have a shot at getting externals 🤣

[wise blade]

Poor druid having to ask all other possible class TCer to have any clue of what is the value of their legendary

[mental barn]

yeah the baseline kindred spirits ability as an over-generalization buffs the druid's and the linked person's damage by 15-20% during empowerment on top of everything else

[pale roost]

it does not work like that

again

please go read what the legendary does

[steep rampart]

Well it does kinda rely on a lot of TCers for them to get accurate values but yeah

Like if they are getting the relative value of their Covenants

[pale roost]

maybe I misunderstood

[wise blade]

yeah I did read, so the value of split in half : What they get from the buff, and what their partner get from the buff

[pale roost]

sure

[steep rampart]

As much as I don't like externals

[pale roost]

it favors the druid though because of KS

[steep rampart]

I'm not sure Balance Druids like it any more

Being simps and relying on other players for their effective DPS is kinda lame too

And they'll never parse as Kyrian but be "forced" to go Kyrian while Venthyr Druids get all the rankings

They are probably as annoyed about it as we are 😄

[wise blade]

And most importantly they'll never be in the top details chart because the value of the covenant rely of both partner

OR blizzard fucked up

[steep rampart]

But it's ok Blizzard thinks it's a "social problem"

[mental barn]

fortunately they clarified what they think about parses

[pale roost]

their damage is not reliant on the partners damage

it does not work like that

[wise blade]

and balanced it in a way that the value of the druid part itself is enough to be competitive, which would be a big wtf

[pale roost]

the druid always gets the same amount of stats

regardless of who they link

as long as the covenant is the correct one

[steep rampart]

It's almost as if designers for a social game should consider social problems when designing the game.. but what do I know 😄

[mental barn]

baseline kindred spirits is

[wise blade]

No I mean you don't understand my point :

If the KA link give value to the partner (us) it must be factored in the balance process

[mental barn]

20% of your partner's damage goes into a pool of bonus damage

[wise blade]

other wise the class is broken

[pale roost]

That is not shown in "details" which you mentioned though

[pale roost]

wut

Pretty sure it says the opposite

YOUR damage

as the druid

[steep rampart]

I mean their effective damage as that Covenant is still relying on having a good partner that will optimize the buff. Even if they don't get credit for it.

[pale roost]

goes to THEIR damage

[mental barn]

it's both ways

[pale roost]

sheesh

dumb ability

oh well

[steep rampart]

They do get logs credit for the proc part though

iirc

But obviously not the stats since that's impossible

[wise blade]

Like Druid get 8% haste, Rogue get 8% haste, Rogue dies at start of the encounter : Value of the legendary is cut in half

right ?

[mental barn]

yeah both players' bonus damage is attributed to the druid

[steep rampart]

In practical terms yeah

[mental barn]

in logs

[wise blade]

Raid-dps-wise

[steep rampart]

Heavy balancing around externals is something I think like

Basically no players want?

But Sigma seems to love it so horray

[wise blade]

but it's important, because if they just balance it in a way such that even if the partner dies, then the legendary is competitive, then obviously it's broken if the partner stays alive

[molten ore]

i mean if the guilds in RWF don't use a couple kyrian druids, a lot of people won't bother

[wise blade]

But it means, if it's balanced that part of the value the legendary has, Raid-dps wise, is not shown in the details of the Druid

[molten ore]

but with the way things are looking atm, if it goes unnerfed

[steep rampart]

If KA is how it is I don't see why they wouldn't but it depends on if they need the burst for some phase

[molten ore]

it's not something that can be overlooked for prog imo

[steep rampart]

Would expect some encounter-based swapping

[dry night]

the guilds in rwf wont use kyrian druid because they wont have double leggo

[steep rampart]

Yeah that's a fair point lol

[wise blade]

Like imagine your class if omega-busted alone, have crazy damage, top the DPS meter AND give another player 8% haste

[scenic saddle]

unless something something tier omega giga overtuned and isn't killable until double leggo

[wise blade]

sound busted to me

[molten ore]

you sound pretty confident. how bad is boomkin dps without it lmao

[pale roost]

the reason it's good is because they get to use the CA lege with it

[dry night]

I always sound confident bro you new here or what xD

[molten ore]

either way though most of our progs in here will be with double leggo

[pale roost]

what does

"in here" mean?

[wise blade]

The funnier part about all this, it's a 9.1 discussion

[pale roost]

but I do agree

[molten ore]

like the people in RH

or even the game

[pale roost]

99% of us will have double legos

[molten ore]

yeah

[dry night]

but the 1%

[pale roost]

so rwf will be a completely different game

[wise blade]

double leggo is week 3 ?

[pale roost]

than what it is for most of us

[dry night]

week 3 mythic

so week 5 of patch

[wise blade]

and Jailer and Cie is opening in mythic week 1 As well ?

it's just Heroic that is split ?

[molten ore]

ye

[dry night]

jailer will be open week 1 mythic yeah

[steep rampart]

@wise blade is your guild doing RWF this tier or no?

[wise blade]

kek

we are going RW100th

yeah

[steep rampart]

hah

[wise blade]

I didn't play that much lately

was playing another game

but raid release are sacred ground

must come back

if I get Alpha I'll try hard alpha and give as much FB as I can to ou guys !

[steep rampart]

Yeah wasn't sure if something changed there if you were coming back 😄

[wise blade]

But yeah, week 3 mythic it is still an advanced week

like we will do most of the early progress without leggo, even for world 100-150 guild like me

last 3 may be with double leggo, but there are 8 boss before that to be kill, and Anduin seems to be a big chunk, from what I tested on PTR

I read somewhere that tier set are personnal loot ?

or did I read wrong ?

[rocky carbon]

yeah

theyre personal loot but thereres always 4 tier drop per boss

like a separate loot table

[wise blade]

oh ok

so you kill 10 boss you get 40 pieces

[rocky carbon]

no

they only drop on 5 of the bosses

[wise blade]

so you kill these 5 twice and you get 40 pieces

[rocky carbon]

yes

[wise blade]

but they can't be traded ?

so you can have redundancy ?

[rocky carbon]

normal loot rules but class specific

so you can only trade to your class but you can trade if the ilvl works

[wise blade]

So it's possible that, me and my rogue friend get 20 piece of set such that we can wash our butthole with this while all other member get nothing ?

[rocky carbon]

i guess

idk

but theres a crafting system

[wise blade]

look like shit to me

[rocky carbon]

and tier can drop from all 9 vault slots

a lot of catchup stuff

[wise blade]

I smell the "2 rogue get 10 piece in 5 bosses and they already disenchant week one while our 5 boomking get nothing in 10 bosses"

yeah yeh catchup but catchup always come up late

I smell the shitty loot distribution again without tokens

[proper veldt]

Holy shit what a read

[rocky carbon]

vault is all patch wdym

they havent said when crafting starts yet tho

[wise blade]

idk it's wierd they didn't make it tokens based

[proper veldt]

There’s a blue post that literally says why they didn’t

[wise blade]

Is it a blue post that say "don't worry everything gonna be ok" while they do know that guild like me that cannot split run will be at the mercy of RNGesus desire during first 2 weeks of prog

[pale roost]

oh and like every single guild in the world

other than the 10 rwf guilds?

hmm yes

interesting point

[wise blade]

When you raid more than 3 days a week, yeah it can be frustrating when RNG goes against you, and yes it's the same for everyone.

Sometime the RNG goes on your side tho

But you always remember bad moments hey

[steep rampart]

Still don't agree with it, tbf. I love Scarizard so far as a dev but the token argument to me is not something I can really get behind. 😛

[proper veldt]

sure but the post still exists

[wise blade]

I'm trying to find this blue post, any timestamp ?

[proper veldt]

and explains their thoughts

so

[steep rampart]

WoW has had tier tokens for longer than it hasn't, it's not really a problem and I still think it's fair to say it's "wierd" that they haven't realized how fucking awful it is for many specs to not have tokens.

[rocky carbon]

rogue

[steep rampart]

Hunters not much better honestly, still know people who have never seen a legendary bow lol

[pale roost]

Good

[steep rampart]

I still don't really think abstract arguments around something like "excitement" or "delayed gratification" should trump the more concrete and practical concerns of actual loot odds and allocation

Which are a massive problem atm with weapons

The "excitement" of getting concrete items starts to go away when you see the Sylv ring being disenchanted for the 26th time and still no weapon has ever dropped 🤣

[wise blade]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/raid-weapons-loot-table/1170847/2

is this the blue post you made reference @proper veldt ?

[steep rampart]

Yes

[empty magnet]

Y’all ain’t doing several splits for gear because no tokens?

Blizzard fucking everyone with the change it seems

[steep rampart]

But I just can't help but strongly disagree with parts of it:

Compare this to 9.0’s tokens - while there was a higher level of equality among drops in the raid, the excitement was often lower in a relative sense; this is in part due to the delayed gratification tokens provide

Like, I would like to see any metrics or support for the notion that "excitement was often lower" when weapon tokens dropped vs. this tier. Because honestly that's not something I can anecdotally back up with experiences in my raid group and I somewhat doubt it's anything that has been surveyed or measured.

In CN I'd say excitement around Sire weapon tokens was pretty damn high lol

[empty magnet]

Not having mythic daggers in January is pretty exciting if I do say so myself

[rocky carbon]

I like getting a weapon drop and it does feel good but I also hate having to wait because people cant trade

[steep rampart]

Really don't think raiders have such a short attention span that just because they have to hearth to equip something instead of being able to do it in 10 seconds that they won't get excited over a massive weapon upgrade. 🤣

[wise blade]

They are talking about weapon tokens

[rocky carbon]

we had an hpal get his 4th jaithys from vault this week lol

[wise blade]

not tier set

[rocky carbon]

tokens are tokens

doesnt matter what theyre for

[steep rampart]

Very little is more frustrating to a raid group when it comes to loot than wasted loot

And the combo of personal loot + no tokens usually yields a lot of wasted or inefficient allocation of loot

[empty magnet]

The tier sets are in the same boat

They’re now class specific too

Which is cringe

And forces people to either do splits or get unlucky and do dog damage

[rocky carbon]

couldnt it just drop for armor type then swap the set/transmog instead

wouldnt that just be way better

[steep rampart]

There are very good reasons WoW always did the different token types for tier gear...

[rocky carbon]

actually isnt this what theyre doing for non tier slots

[steep rampart]

However at least tier has some sort of backup mechanism in place

Weapons have no such thing

So Daggers are still a bigger concern to me

[empty magnet]

Yea daggers are either get lucky or get fucked

Nobody can trade them

E.g. I have 22 mythic sylv kills and 1 dagger

[wise blade]

But I mean we know the story, we always has been at the mercy of RNGesus it's the burden of being "too bad to be competitive in the RWF" but "too implicate to be in the casual side of the specter"

So we don't split, we compense our lack of discipline with higher amount of Raid time. It means we do our progression in a shorter period of time, and if items drop on the wrong people we are fucked up for the entiere progress and can only wait until next week that we get another shot at finalizing Tier Set.

It sucks dude

really

it sucks since they removed master loot

Tokens helps

no tokens = people will basically just ragequit the game if it happens AGAIN that we end up with 3 tier set completed end of week 1 while other with same amount raid ends up with 10

[steep rampart]

Like they could easily have their cake and eat it to.. by making the tokens show the tooltip of the result weapon when you mouseovered.. like basically every tier set item mod did in older wow xpacs for everyone

And make it so you could click to instant-convert instead of going to town

And yay, you fixed the gratification problem

Without screwing over the dagger people

[empty magnet]

I honestly don’t even know how people will deal with this in more casual guilds

[steep rampart]

Drama

Lots of loot drama 😛

[empty magnet]

Like if you don’t do splits you can legitimately just get beyond fucked

Take months to get tier sets for your whole raid

[steep rampart]

Yeah I mean I've been there. I didn't get a Mythic weapon in CN until after prog finished 👌

Mercy of the GV baby

[wise blade]

But at least they have time because they get their heroic reclear before attempting a "set a boss" like a wing in the raid

We don't. If Heroic week tier set fall into redundancy we are fucked

that's all

Tokens help dealing with redundancy

[empty magnet]

Yea

I guess there are some safety nets

The daggers are fucked though

[wise blade]

yeah but even for tier set, you get fucked if you have only 1 hunter in your raid and he drop 10 tier set items in 2 heroic clear, like idk it can happen and it basically just screw up an entiere progression

such a flaw

[empty magnet]

Big true

Pray for rng

[wise blade]

or if you have 15 people if 1 or 3 piece, like why can't we just have the possibility to choose who get the loot such that that 1 dude get 4P insteed of 1 dude with 1p and 1 dude with 3p

nvm

I have a bad feeling about this tier, again

[rocky carbon]

just wait for the creation catalyst announcement or testing or whatever

could be fine

[steep rampart]

I mean maybe but like Rogues have been expressing concern about the Dagger issue since forced personal loot became a thing and it's starting to get a bit laughable how persistent of a problem it has been for multiple xpacs in a row with zero solution. 😦

Even got worse with the removal of bonus rolls

[wise blade]

Plus the issue with dagger is double edge. Forced PL = Rogue may wait longer to get their weapon. Allowing ML = Global loot = you get 1 dagger but you have no rogue in the raid (for example, which was happening for a long time)

But I do understand their point of having named items droping from named boss for lore reason, ok why not

then why not having both (tokens and named weapon)

[azure pilot]

How's rygelon dagger compared to the simp queen dagger we have now?

[vernal spoke]

🔮

[dry night]

It's just a higher ilvl haste vers dagger from what I see

[azure pilot]

No i meant the intrinsic passive effect

[dry night]

ye i believe scarizard said there wasn't going to be one

but maybe he was able to get one in

[azure pilot]

Versa

So sub and outluls gonna get the most out of it?

[rose grail]

int dagger?

or is it just fucked up stats

because that right there looks like a caster item.

[vernal spoke]

idk why ure linking the int dagger

that is not the one implemented for rogues

[dry night]

lmao

gotem

[azure pilot]

Ah shit

RIP me

Imma cry in a corner now

[fervent thicket]

run while you can man

[raw thunder]

another one bites the dust

[azure pilot]

I had my hopes high seeing another dagger with passive effect

[raw thunder]

hey goodoption!

[azure pilot]

[stiff fossil]

[azure pilot]

Imma get the mythic sylvanas while i still i can and keep it till 10.0

[stiff fossil]

in b4 it gets nerfed so people don't feel obligated to farm it for OH

[vernal spoke]

plenty of rogues that hope itll get nerfed atleast :)

if u cant get it, get it nerfed innit?

[azure pilot]

Why would you hope for that?

[vernal spoke]

ask @rapid tree

[stiff fossil]

like everyone who didn't bother farming the faulty countermeasure

[vernal spoke]

didnt farm it either

[rose grail]

just dont play rogue, ez

[raw thunder]

@ us harder lmfaooo

nerf it to the groundsd

[stiff fossil]

yeah but you're just built diffy

you don't need no stinkin faulty countermeasure

[azure pilot]

82 runs and no faulty countermeasure

[raw thunder]

lmfaooo

[stiff fossil]

I ran 45 runs in the first week and people on my friends list and in my guild felt so bad for me that they started putting together full groups to funnel me the trinket

when legion TWing released one of my officers is like "Bro you've been in vault since tuesday, wtf are you even farming"

[rose grail]

do it all again in what 3 months?

[azure pilot]

My guild bullied me and made memes on me.

[stiff fossil]

we'll see if I'm even logging in in 3 months

[rose grail]

want me to setup an int dagger meme for you to share with them?

[stiff fossil]

[azure pilot]

Yeah March i suppose. And im' getting engaged in April so idk if i will get to time to farm full week

[azure pilot]

[vernal spoke]

what a shame

[stiff fossil]

congrats

[vernal spoke]

ur marriage is in the way

[rose grail]

lol

[raw thunder]

gotta decide what's more important bro

[stiff fossil]

does this mean you won't say yes if I ask you to marry me?

[rose grail]

PRIORITIES

[vernal spoke]

idk if its ethical

marrying ur lawyer sounds sus

[sterile swift]

[azure pilot]

I already made my fiance into a farm bot so she can farm for korthia research while i'm at work

[rapid tree]

I have it

I don't want to use it all of next tier too

that's all

[stiff fossil]

it is, unless we can prove the relationship started before the work relationship started

[rapid tree]

Even if historically they've not nerfed broken shit the tier after other than outliers

[raw thunder]

that's account sharing against ToS!!!!!!!!

[rapid tree]

like CoF

[vernal spoke]

yea id rather use a generic dagger that has nothing but stats on it too

[rapid tree]

It doesn't change how you play at all 🤷‍♂️

[azure pilot]

Blizzard is too low on subs to even care about ToS kekw

[rapid tree]

Same as a generic stats dagger

[raw thunder]

lmfao

[rose grail]

it did until last tuesday.

[azure pilot]

Nah having passive effects on weapons feels nice. Motivates me to farm HC kills everyday

[vernal spoke]

@rose grail think i need to go druid discord where they cry for buffs while being at the top already

rogues apparently just want their stuff to get nerfed

[sterile swift]

Unlucky

[rose grail]

rogues always have the weird takes.

ethical something something.

[stiff fossil]

we just need a tettles to step up the twitter memeing

who volunteers as tribute?

[rose grail]

we have james

[molten ore]

do you know the string for KA

[stiff fossil]

[azure pilot]

HC week has fire mages blasting all over the place
Boomkins cry in the forums
Come Mythic week
Fire mages nerfed into the ground
Boomkins buffed to the moon

[stiff fossil]

not on the fly but I think @sterile swift has it saved somewhere

I don't get KA

[sterile swift]

external_buffs.kindred_affinity=0/45/90/135/180/225/270/315

Add 5.

[stiff fossil]

so

[molten ore]

thank you

[molten ore]

what's add 5?

[stiff fossil]

add 5s to each one

[sterile swift]

Add 5 to each interval

[stiff fossil]

to account for MA window

[sterile swift]

^

[molten ore]

so just make every number 5 seconds higher?

[stiff fossil]

so 5/50/95

etc

[sterile swift]

Yes

[stiff fossil]

ye

[rose grail]

@vernal spoke sub had its .5 tier. time for it to die. assa takes the 2pc nerf on the chin without fighting for less of a nerf

[vernal spoke]

and ppl in here asked for nerfs for rogues before that :)

[rose grail]

we good. thanks. may I have another.

[stiff fossil]

remember obediencegate?

we can't have an 11% legendary

[vernal spoke]

I am not allowed to comment on this

[rapid tree]

All it is changing passive damage to passive damage elsewhere

[rose grail]

WE CANT PLAY ANYTHING ELSE

[stiff fossil]

same actually

[rapid tree]

doesn't matter if I use 259 dagger vs 285 dagger

[vernal spoke]

yep.

[rose grail]

hey look. can only play Nf now.

[molten ore]

is PI the same string just with Power Infusion and the proper 2 minute numbers added?

[rapid tree]

I would just rather use 285 one because bigger number

[vernal spoke]

yep.

[sterile swift]

Yes

[stiff fossil]

idk it was cool having a unique dagger for once

[molten ore]

tytyty

[rose grail]

still waiting. lol

[azure pilot]

God hated assa so much he made us become furries

[sterile swift]

For that one it’s just on timer though 😛 , don’t have to add 5s

[rose grail]

NF is great for prog

[stiff fossil]

outlaw rogues cried and cried

[vernal spoke]

someone ping me when eon got nerfed and kieron got his 2nd dagger in 8 months

[stiff fossil]

despite having: folly and slappers in back to back tiers

[rapid tree]

someone ping me when tisumi plays wow again

[rose grail]

@rapid tree

rip. second line got me

[azure pilot]

Talking about outlaws, whenever i feel depressed, i checkout the outlaw channel. Holy shit the copium levels on the channel are absolutely insane. Feels good to be not the only one with sever brain damage.

[stiff fossil]

they think that uncapping them will solve all their issues

lol

[vernal spoke]

good one

[rose grail]

they’re fine with capped. or so i’ve been told.

[rapid tree]

Thanks 🙂

[dry night]

probably because it should've been a bigger nerf and we are lucky to have it sit at 40% tbh

[rose grail]

bullshit

[vernal spoke]

jesus

are u ok buddy

[rose grail]

Fury warriors bring 3 forms of raid utility are out simming you with a half assed apl and it needed that heavy of a nerf?

[dry night]

yep

it did

[rose grail]

found the outlaw rogue

[stiff fossil]

there was zero shot that it should've been a bigger nerf

[rose grail]

we all just really hoping everyone else gets nerfed apparently.

[stiff fossil]

I'd argue that it should've been nerfed to 50% not 40%

or just 70% and fix the snapshotting of the bleeds

[rose grail]

@vernal spoke ping me when a rogue is in RWF again.

[steep rampart]

I mean anyone pretending Obedience at 1% made any sense was just not paying attention. Was gonna get nerfed, just a matter of when.

DPS ain't the problem with Rogues in SoD 😛

[weary nacelle]

I feel like I don’t even feel the impact of the 2pc at all

[steep rampart]

I mean Assassination currently has like... one of the strongest set bonuses in the whole game right now?
But not like you are going to be able to "feel" the 2pc. It's just extra damage.

[hidden glacier]

Isn't sub way ahead next tier?

[sacred sonnet]

Are you better with Sub or Sin?

[weary nacelle]

That’s true, I guess I’m just thinking that it didn’t need a heavier nerf

[weary nacelle]

Can we tell without the bug fixes on the sub set for certain?

I feel like sub is just a question mark rn till changes are pushed

[dry night]

I mean I understand from a wholistic pov the nerf seems like a lot

but for a 2p it's like massive

even at 40%

[steep rampart]

100% was never ever a reasonable value

It was just a placeholder

[weary nacelle]

Agree with that

[steep rampart]

With 100% it was like a 29% set bonus lol

[weary nacelle]

ya definitely too much

[dry night]

75-70 % was very wishful thinking. I'm happy they didn't nerf it down to 25%

[steep rampart]

While Outlaw at the time was sitting on.. uhh.. 7% 🤣

[molten ore]

but other classes have legendaries that are even higher % than that was?

[weary nacelle]

Outlaw so sad man

[molten ore]

i know we didn't NEED it this tier, but still

[dry night]

And based off of what scarizard has said, they want the tier bonuses to be roughly in the same ballpark then tune base specs accordingly. Which is kinda different from past philosophies so we'll see what happens

[weary nacelle]

I’m just glad fire mage sucks :)

[dry night]

FIre mage won't suck lol

It can cast while moving

[weary nacelle]

The tier

[molten ore]

their tier is good

lmao

[dry night]

Frost with fragments is massive but fire casting while moving trumps a lot of numbers

[weary nacelle]

Every source I’ve looked at says it’s dogshit?

[dry night]

Na it was dogshit cuz you killed yourself with it

but they removed that

[molten ore]

nah they just want it buffed

it's still really good

[weary nacelle]

I swear it was like a 3% overall

[molten ore]

it was insanely broken before

there's no way lol

[weary nacelle]

Is*

not was

[dry night]

You must be thinking about aff lock

[molten ore]

someone is lying

[raw thunder]

wym that shit based

[dry night]

based for everyone other than fire mage tru

[molten ore]

yes

we all need our fire mages dying to shit even more on prog

[dry night]

I mean tbh if mages are dying they maybe shouldn't play mage....it's like the most unkillable class

[weary nacelle]

Alright apparently 2 piece is like 2%

But 4 is like 8-9

Not the worst ig

[molten ore]

ye

that sounds like what i've heard as well

[weary nacelle]

Worst out of the Mages but it’s not saying much haha

[steep rampart]

Not really interested in fully rehashing the debate of why balancing around a couple outlier "other specs" is not super meaningful. The reality is Rogue specs already ended up like ~1k DPS ahead of everyone other than Feral on ST. Casually adding another 1k DPS further one that would have never made it beyond the first hotfix, so just depends on if you wanna get dumpstered in a panic hotfix or if you want targeted tuning on PTR. Latter is usually a much better idea.

Also Obedience being "internally" out of line for Rogues would have just fucked up the meta for 9.2 as well. It's much better for us in terms of spec opportunities and flexibility to be balanced around multiple Covenants being in the same ballpark.

Same reason devs dumpstered the Venthyr leggo for Balance Druids in 9.2

[molten ore]

yeah i mean i agree with all of that. i'm more worried on the effect it will have on 9.2 overall

which is still dependent on tuning ofc

[dry night]

Also can't really compare legendary %'s when we have like a 51% aura buff baseline or some shit

[molten ore]

i mean that's just assa

[dry night]

and we are in sin channel =]

[molten ore]

and our base is still sorta low

nowhere near as bad as it was

[steep rampart]

I mean I do think Rogue baseline is a bit low but they seem to have balanced around Sylv daggers for 9.1

[molten ore]

sure but obedience effects all 3 specs not just sin

[steep rampart]

Which I guess is great if you can get them

[dry night]

I am sure that we will be seeing some kind of tuning numbers one way or another

[steep rampart]

Enter dagger convo from last night though 😄

[sterile swift]

[molten ore]

lmao sylv dagger is going to be a feelsbadman for a lot of people

[dry night]

They are clearly not balancing around a cantrip weapon this tier so maybe we get talents looked at or something else that's small but helpful

[molten ore]

aka the ones who don't have one at all

[wooden wharf]

its a cycling discussion for more than a week now

[azure pilot]

I saw psybear doing 222K in a single pull with feral on PTR in DoS and he later commented that his video would probably get the tier set nerfed

[molten ore]

that's 1 pull in DoS

i highly doubt it gets nerfed tbh

[stiff fossil]

Oh I know, it just people are always chicken little about things

[molten ore]

also i think that was with pi on that pull

[stiff fossil]

“Oh no rogue is ruined now “

[azure pilot]

Yeah i know but we ain't doing those numbers anyways

[steep rampart]

Haha yeah that's fair

[molten ore]

yeah but multiple other classes do

boomkin, warlock, etc

[azure pilot]

Like i can do a 14K on Kultharok in a 22 on Live and still end up with a 9K overall kekw

[dry night]

oh no rogue is ruined now

[azure pilot]

Yes sadly

[proper veldt]

Gueys do I must reroll rogue bad next tier?

[dry night]

yeah better make a mage like everyone else

or spriest

[molten ore]

yes

[proper veldt]

Heard max video say meh tier bonus at least not swamp ass?

[molten ore]

abandon ship

[dry night]

but i hear you have the best spriest already in your guild

[molten ore]

jpc just trying to get us buffed

[proper veldt]

Ah yes

Of course

[molten ore]

i mean the tier obviously isn't meh

i 100% believe that's why he told Max it was meh lmao

[proper veldt]

Scarizard watching a tier list will go “oh fuck I need to buff it, I didn’t think so before but now that a world first raider said it’s mediocre…”

[molten ore]

i mean community feedback encompasses more than just this discord

[proper veldt]

Jpc taking 3 minutes on stream to say it’s meh has shattered the entire dev team world view

[molten ore]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[proper veldt]

It keeps them up at night

[pine karma]

roflmao

[molten ore]

lololl

[pine karma]

I don't even think sin set bonus is meh at all. I think its great 😮

Bit wonky but it looks fun to play

[molten ore]

it doesn't feel super fun to play

with dusk and 4pc i think it feels kinda good

[pine karma]

I mean in the end, 90% of the people will just gravitate towards whatever has the best damage.

[nova solstice]

after watching the 222k pull, the only thing i can say is our 4p does not contribute much in aoe

[molten ore]

our 2pc contributes to aoe

it's nothing insane, sure, but it's better than it was so

[pine karma]

Is there any like proper 2t cleave fight atm?

In 9.2 i mean.

[molten ore]

yeah

there's one that ends up with 4 boss targets

prototype pantheon iirc?

[pine karma]

Yeah but like..

Prob staying 40y away from eachother

etc

😄

[molten ore]

no

they're stacked

[pine karma]

Actually pog 😮

But 1 fight htough

Like i said, most people will gravitate towards whatever does best damage. By the looks of it sub is winning in that department atm. 😄

Then again no tuning yet

[molten ore]

damage on sims also doesn't necessarily equate to damage in a raid environment

each fight has different targets, fight length, etcetc

[lethal hull]

The horror sub doing more st damage. The long dominant sub

[nova solstice]

Indeed, that's exactly how rationally thinking we're going to have something and suddenly realising an emotional sadness "oh, that's not like what they got".

[proper veldt]

WHERE VIGOR DEEPER SO SLOW

[nova solstice]

Anyway, it's fun for feral. they kinda suffered for a while.

[molten ore]

i was joking dude

come on now

[proper veldt]

And I wasn’t?

[molten ore]

i don't think so

[molten ore]

LOOOOOOL

[proper veldt]

Vigor

[molten ore]

RL's everywhere preaching "more vigor logs, vigor better. play vigor you ignorant rogue."

[sterile swift]

I don’t understand the vigor obsession

For many players

[molten ore]

same

[nova solstice]

Quite sad to see BS is now so low

[molten ore]

i think it's mostly people being unaware or unknowledgeable of simming in general, following the WCL majority

but also a bit of "vigor is easier to play" sprinkled in there

one less button to press etc

[nova solstice]

Sin already has so few buttons to press.

[molten ore]

that's why some people like it

[raw thunder]

need more buttons

[steep rampart]

I think the issue is (and probably Whyspyr was alluding to this) I don't think anyone's gonna scam devs into buffing something that's already one of the strongest sets just by calling it "meh" on stream. Saying something like that is more likely to negatively impact community perception of Rogue (omg Rogue sux, never gonna be used for raids, etc.) than it will get us a buff. 😛

[proper veldt]

Pretty sure I’m safe to leak this

[steep rampart]

Devs are honestly fully aware of most of the community resources about sims and charts and all that. I dunno why folks think it's even possible to hide stuff. Usually when tuning is off it's just due to bandwidth and lack of attention, not because they don't have the data or resources.

[stiff fossil]

Did you know that the wow devs have ALL the data the TCers work hard to figure out and present to us readily available to them?

[steep rampart]

😮

[dry night]

Scar coming from league is part of the reason why I trust and am very glad he's kinda heading up rogue a bit

[proper veldt]

Not if I start a patreon for sims

[stiff fossil]

Is there a special+ tier available?

[proper veldt]

Every sim comes with a toe

[stiff fossil]

Extra $5 a month you sing me the dps differences between sims?