9.2 Feedback and Discussion

[wraith sphinx]

I liked the general approach of the legion design, whether intentional or not, of Bleeds being the AoE damage source for the most part, and Poisons being the st one.

[dry night]

Yeah

That's kinda what I'm thinking with spitball mastery change

[wraith sphinx]

Multidotting Ruptures/Garrote and then later CT for cleave/AoE damage, Kingsbane/Toxic Blade/Envenom on single-target

[dry night]

I never played legion but I wish I did cuz it seems rogue had a lot of fun toys

[rocky carbon]

what if mastery was something like your envenom makes your venomous wounds proc do poison damage or whatever

make envenom buff uptime have more value

and do the vw thing

[wraith sphinx]

Was a very straight forward design idea, but it made sense from a lore or immersion PoV as well. On a single targetd youd apply a variety of different poisons, whereas on AoE youd just make everyone bleeds out. Hard to push the poison narrative on multitarget, really.

Too bad we eventually just spammed fok with 3MAlch/3PK relics and prayed for PB procs, with antorus tierset taking care of energy through poisonprocs

Throwing the entire Bleeds for AoE concept out the window

[dry night]

Ye I'd like to see more definition like that for sure.

I also like whispyr's take that's something along the lines of you should be able to choose if you want to lean into bleeds or poisons as sin

[wraith sphinx]

Yeah

[rocky carbon]

its never a choice unless they have different purposes tho

cant have both be good for st or anything like that

damage is always a math problem

[dry night]

Well yeah that's be the idea right

[wraith sphinx]

The problem with that, is that one build will always be superior, and its hard designing tier sets and rental powers with a spec in mind that has 2 distinct playstyles. We've had that in Legion with Poisons vs Bleeds already

BfA clearly pushed a Poison Narrative, with bleeds being nothing more than enables for energy sustain/gaining stats

Then Nyalotha and Corruption/Essences pushed that back towards Bleeds again

[dry night]

Yeah it'd just be nice to have them either be more cohesive all together or split with options

[wraith sphinx]

Between doubledose/ttk/nothing personal there was some clear moves towards nature damage being the majority of our damage

[dry night]

But that'd take a lot of dev time so makes sense why it's not

[rocky carbon]

I personally am a fan of more cohesive blend stuff

but really I just hope we actually get some changes in 10.0

[wraith sphinx]

Imo the spec doesnt need two different types of DoTs. Either condense it into one, or make them distinct enough to matter in different situations, i.e. st vs aoe or burst vs damage over time

[rocky carbon]

I don't think it matters either way

[wraith sphinx]

In SL most of our poison damage isnt over time but instant/comes in short durations

So we're already somewhat down that path

[rocky carbon]

they can be classified arbitrarily however blizz wants

it only matters if they have interactions with stuff/each other

[wraith sphinx]

Most reworks weren't just for pure mechanical function though

Just looking at other classes, there was also some design narrative behind it, whether you wanna call it lore or fantasy or RP, but it "made sense" in a lot of ways

Needs a new coat of paint

[dry night]

Yeah

I wouldn't mind a mini rework of the whole spec but again I haven't been playing it as long as a lot of others so I can only imagine how you guys feel

I'm already kinda over it after just one year can't imagine playing the same thing for 5

[wraith sphinx]

We all just want WoD Combat back anyway, no one cared about Assa until Outlaw was a thing

[dry night]

That's cuz we are the modern combat spec lol

[wraith sphinx]

No, not at all.

cata sub or wod combat is where its at

Anyway, not really 9.2 related anymore, so might just wanna take it into the regular assa chat

[molten ore]

Cata sub was mmmm

The memories

[forest kraken]

Can anyone decipher this?

[wooden wharf]

blizz cleaned up some spell data

there is seemingly no change to tier sets this build

[forest kraken]

I understand, thanks

[sacred sonnet]

They also made the Fire 4pc not hurt the Mage, hilarious

[rocky carbon]

yeah because they nerfed it a lot

[sacred sonnet]

idk why Blizz thinks "power causes damage to you" is a good design. Dreadblades was so weird

[rocky carbon]

probably because the fire set was so op

now its not so they took it out

[tepid sky]

ya it was effectively balanced

if anything might get raised to 60%

as for dreadblades, it had traits that healed you when you used it. also probs should take this to wow general since this is sin feedback

[proper veldt]

Updated 2/15 for T28 sims. Mythic week still at the bottom: https://bit.ly/3yX1GQc
Please read the disclaimers
It also includes all APL changes (fae is now baseline)

[wraith sphinx]

Cheers.

You're a king.

[sacred sonnet]

👑

[raw thunder]

ty

[indigo surge]

The Venthyr sim also uses Subterfuge. Is Master Assassin still an option in 9.2 or is Subter mandatory due to the set bonus even though Flag does not profit from it like Sepsis?

[rocky carbon]

sepsis doesn't really profit from subterfuge either

[indigo surge]

no, I mean the set bonus

this pushes Fae with Sepsis ahead...as far as I read it

[rocky carbon]

afaik whispyr spent a lot of time getting all the talent builds and stuff right

so everything should be as good as possible

[indigo surge]

kk, then I'll have to accept roughly -240dps ST with Venthyr

[rocky carbon]

yeah if you dont want to play fae

[indigo surge]

nope, not gonna swap

[grand sonnet]

do we know on which armor piece legedaries will go in 9.2 - covenant on belt and Dusk on..?

[rocky carbon]

unity is gonna depend on some slot stuff we don't have 100% confirmed yet and dusk will most likely go on ring

[molten ore]

idk there's definitely something to be said for the extra ilvl of Chest

[rocky carbon]

wdym

do we know that the chest tier slot has higher ilvl already?

I thought on ptr all the tier isn't scaled up to endboss level

[molten ore]

mm idk i haven't looked too closely at the loot on the table since it's still subject to change from what i've been hearing

[rocky carbon]

I'm thinking we don't know whether we put it on ring/chest/legs/hat

[molten ore]

once it's for sure final i'm sure we'd be able to decide 100% where it goes, either way i don't think it'll make a big difference

legs/hat?

[rocky carbon]

same stat budget

no?

[molten ore]

dusk in particular is chest and ring only isn't it?

[rocky carbon]

oh

lol

nvm

[molten ore]

[rocky carbon]

letroll

thought you meant for unity

[molten ore]

toxic onslaught on the other hand

i don't even know where you can craft that

[rocky carbon]

unity goes everywhere

[molten ore]

(like right now)

[rocky carbon]

oh

[molten ore]

^^^

[rocky carbon]

its same as obe i think

[molten ore]

ye ik unity

ahh

[rocky carbon]

back belt and idk

nope

i lied

chest legs feet

good slots

not that it matters

[molten ore]

and tier is on what

helm, chest, legs, boots, gloves?

[rocky carbon]

ye

wrists shoulders are open

[molten ore]

and unity is literally any slot

[rocky carbon]

yep

[molten ore]

i'd assume dusk would go on chest (depending on raid tier chest ofc)

[rocky carbon]

unity will probably go on the worst of chest helm legs imo

[molten ore]

and TO on shoulders or something

[rocky carbon]

its hard to know without seeing stats and finalized ilvl

[molten ore]

all depends on what items come from raid at 285 or w/e

ye

do we know for sure if the new dagger will have an effect or not?

[rocky carbon]

it won't

[molten ore]

i think i remember someone saying it won't be

that sucks

[rocky carbon]

it really doesnt

[molten ore]

i mean

[rocky carbon]

high ilvl is good enough for me

[molten ore]

using sylv ilvl

in OH

for at least sub

[rocky carbon]

yeah sub might

oh well

[molten ore]

it's gonna feel bad for players who never got a 259

neither me nor the other rogue in my guild have one yet

[rocky carbon]

the other rogue in my guild just got one in vault

[molten ore]

and he's still sporting a 233 OH only as a sub main this tier

he spent a decent number of resets as our monk though it still just feels bad ya know

[rocky carbon]

ye

I think its fine that we just get higher ilvl

what wouldve sucked is having neither

like no effect and no ilvl both

[molten ore]

yeah true

but also kinda drags it back down again

to not getting one until CE or very close to it

[rocky carbon]

its on rygelon

9th/10th boss of the raid

at least its not on jailer

[molten ore]

Oh?

how many bosses are there total

[rocky carbon]

11

[molten ore]

rygelon is untested?

[rocky carbon]

yep

[molten ore]

yeah

[rocky carbon]

the last 3 are all highest ilvl

as expected

[molten ore]

yeah idk why i thought there was 13 bosses

[rocky carbon]

lmao

[molten ore]

thought it was usual 10+3 for some reason

[rocky carbon]

nah its like 8+3

anduin at 8

[molten ore]

well that's not too bad

i was expecting an even longer prog

lmfao

tbh 1-8 all look like they're going to be pretty easy

depending on what they change with the walking spider guy

[rocky carbon]

yeah 1-7 should range from easy-medium

then anduin the wall

then last 3 hopefully are all hard

[molten ore]

i think xymox will be like

50-100 pulls depending on the guild

[rocky carbon]

I'm hoping some of them are easy but interesting

like the nine type stuff

[molten ore]

anduin could easily be 100+

i like the nine but like

[rocky carbon]

5min bosses are fun to have high pull counts on

[molten ore]

the forced downtime and the shield

[rocky carbon]

yeah the shield isnt very fun

[molten ore]

yeah

[rocky carbon]

but the rest of the fight is fun

[molten ore]

i suppose

i just have a bad experience with fragments

[rocky carbon]

considering its a joke easy boss

[molten ore]

slow dispels in my guild etc

[rocky carbon]

interesting

[molten ore]

yeah it's cancer

like fragments bouncing back onto you

after first dispel

is so kjsdfnfskdjnfkjnsd

[rocky carbon]

i usually just cloak mine off in the dispel marker and shadowstep back

[molten ore]

don't they have to be done in order or something

or is it just all in quick succession

[rocky carbon]

dont think theres an order

you just need to get them all on one person

[molten ore]

they make it seem like such a difficult mechanic to deal with idk

[rocky carbon]

its not really

thats one of the things we never have issues with

[molten ore]

you excited for any particular bosses?

[rocky carbon]

uh

i havent tested

so idk how any of them play

[molten ore]

i'm excited for holundrus or whatever the walking spider guy is

[rocky carbon]

lol he looks hilarious

[molten ore]

yeah

[rocky carbon]

hopefully a good meme boss

[molten ore]

it looks like it could be made into a decent patchwerk fight

no meme

[rocky carbon]

i dont like the faraway target swap tho

doesnt look cool

[molten ore]

make that shit a dps check from the inner depths of hell

i mean we have step

and they look like they die fast so like

[rocky carbon]

I'm optimistic about prototype pantheon

[molten ore]

step+bleed it+sprint back

[rocky carbon]

and dausegne

[molten ore]

pantheon looked really bad on testing

it fell the fuck over

[rocky carbon]

thats fine

its an early boss right

[molten ore]

dausegne seemed like a watered down remnent almost

[rocky carbon]

idk where it is in the wings

[molten ore]

i don't think so

but i'm not sure

[rocky carbon]

lihuvim looks like a big stinker

[molten ore]

which one is that

[rocky carbon]

4 adds

massive room

[molten ore]

ohh

[rocky carbon]

ive barely seen boss 1

[molten ore]

where you pick what add sets you get

[rocky carbon]

but the rest look ok

and anduin looks great to me

[molten ore]

lihuvim looks like a ranged fight

[rocky carbon]

very excited for anduin

[molten ore]

yeah same

very curious to see the last 3

[rocky carbon]

yeah

hopefully malg isnt SLG LOL

[molten ore]

oh god

idk if my guild would make it through another slg+sire scenario

i mean we made it through 550ish sylvanas wipes...barely

[rocky carbon]

tbh even if some of the early bosses arent great I think the last 3 bosses being bangers will make this a really great raid

and if theyre confident in not testing them i bet theyre all really good

[molten ore]

true true

[rocky carbon]

I want rygelon to be crazy fun

for whatever reason

[molten ore]

i'm not looking forward to being forced to pvp

at all

[rocky carbon]

what for?

[molten ore]

tier loot in vault

[rocky carbon]

oh right

i mean

you could just do m+ and raid and get that vault

[molten ore]

especially if it's ilvl is attached to your pvp rank

[rocky carbon]

it is

[molten ore]

yeah that's big EEK

i mean i understand pvpers need a way to get tier

but like

[rocky carbon]

I definitely think this is how it should work tbh

[mint current]

i mean nowadays max ilvl is only 2100

[molten ore]

farming low ilvl tier to get it ASAP

[rocky carbon]

yeah

[molten ore]

rwf is gonna farm pvp hardcore

[rocky carbon]

whatever the minimum pvp ilvl is

[mint current]

of course

[rocky carbon]

is whats gonna matter

[molten ore]

pvp ilvl is lowered in pve

[rocky carbon]

nah

like

[molten ore]

yeah it is

[rocky carbon]

ik

but

[molten ore]

and if you think about it

[rocky carbon]

if we get the most basic tier level that should be good enough

[molten ore]

pvp's loot pool is so much smaller compared to m+

so much greater chance you get tier from pvp than m+

[rocky carbon]

the tier just replaces all drops in its slot doesnt it?

[molten ore]

do what

[rocky carbon]

like

[molten ore]

like mandatory piece of tier?

[rocky carbon]

head chest etc

[molten ore]

in vault?

[rocky carbon]

nah

[molten ore]

oh idk

[rocky carbon]

how bad would it feel to get a normal chest when you need a tier one

[molten ore]

don't know what you mean tbh

[rocky carbon]

dunno

i mean

is it possible to get regular gear from vault in a tier slot

[mint current]

yes

[molten ore]

yeah lol

they're not gonna change how the vault works at all

[rocky carbon]

this is gonna suck

[molten ore]

just gonna be completely randomized loot

now you see where i'm coming from

[rocky carbon]

imagine you have max phial a max weapon and also a piss ilvl tier piece

[molten ore]

pvping 3 boxes every week

[rocky carbon]

have fun waiting until you finish the raid

[molten ore]

LOL

i'd prolly take a wep or phial

[mint current]

i mean most of us will kill the boss with 2 sylv weps

[molten ore]

over a piece of tier

[rocky carbon]

dont think its gonna be worth once the tier set is complete

[mint current]

and like 252 tier set

[rocky carbon]

like even min ilvl tier set

[molten ore]

i agree ye

but still

first month easily

i will prolly have to do it

[rocky carbon]

whats sin going in pvp in 9.2

[molten ore]

wdym

[rocky carbon]

do i have to level kyrian or necro after all

[molten ore]

cov?

[rocky carbon]

[molten ore]

i'd prolly use necro yeah

[rocky carbon]

actually my necro is mostly done

so its nbd

[molten ore]

i mean it's possible to stay venth but it's def not optimal

yeah i just need renown for necro

or kyrian for that matter

[rocky carbon]

fuck kyrian

aint playing that

[molten ore]

i will for sub likely

but like

if i were to get max phial or weapon

[rocky carbon]

isnt venth sub gonna be better

[molten ore]

or a 252 tier piece

i think i'd take the max phial or wep

[rocky carbon]

hmmm i feel like they wont let us have big tier pieces early on

[molten ore]

because i have way more chances at the tier than i do those

[molten ore]

not from what everyone thinks no

[rocky carbon]

interesting

i wouldve thought losing sylv dagger potentially* and a cp generation based set would favor venth

[molten ore]

combo points spent feeds into the tier doing more free strikes i think

more chances for procs iirc

procs seem to unpredictable to rely on for more obedience cdr etc

it will def still be the play in m+

but doubtful for raid

[rocky carbon]

just like for sin

lol

probably just like this tier where necro's overall isnt enough to make up for the dogshit st

[molten ore]

boomkins are becoming a hot commodity again

having their ST and simping on the roster is pretty big

but a lot of people are also saying they're going to want to simp NF melee?

[rocky carbon]

yep

[molten ore]

i don't get what the difference is for melee?

[rocky carbon]

I think it has to do with applying the baseline kindred spirits thing

[molten ore]

oh like the thing that does damage for you on the meter?

[rocky carbon]

ye

[molten ore]

Ooh

[rocky carbon]

thats just my guess though

[molten ore]

our brand new fire mage reroll is trying to claim our 1 for sure KA already

lmao

[rocky carbon]

nf because it juices the boomie's damage as well obviously

[molten ore]

yeah

[rocky carbon]

I saw a KA sheet and nf rogue maybe was the highest overall gain

cant remember

[molten ore]

it's gonna be a rough tier if i don't move on i feel like

[rocky carbon]

I think nf mage was the biggest gain for the mage tho

[molten ore]

nf rogue was like 2nd or 3rd last i checked

[rocky carbon]

i meant for the guy getting simped

not the mage

specifically

overall raid gain

is a little different

[molten ore]

ye same

rogue is 4th

nf ret is 2nd now LOL

they'll give it to our ret or fire mage over me

100%

[rocky carbon]

ye

if I stay in my guild theyll give it to me no matter what the sheet says

[lean glen]

damn you have a ret in your guild

[molten ore]

yes, sadly, we do

[rocky carbon]

rets pretty good tbh

[molten ore]

we have a fuck ton of melee

not enough bench ranged

[lean glen]

we had one in cn but as per usual people go and i dont notice

[molten ore]

i mean they bring decent util

[rocky carbon]

we had one for prog this tier

hes gone now

[lean glen]

i know we had one for sure cause of sludgefist chainbreaking

[rocky carbon]

either busy or quit idk

[molten ore]

their dam profile is just meh

[rocky carbon]

nah

burst is good

ret is good

[lean glen]

they bring big burst aoe

not monk shit but still

[rocky carbon]

they have a good mix of burst st or burst aoe

[molten ore]

that's why i say it's meh

other aoe burst is better

[rocky carbon]

probably the best generalized burst for a melee

[molten ore]

hunter, DK, monk

mage

etc

[rocky carbon]

mage isnt melee so it isnt competition

at least not directly

[molten ore]

idk

ret and dk's should be deleted

right after mages and boomkins

[rocky carbon]

dk is cool wtf

but they kinda suck

so

[molten ore]

i haven't liked dk since i played a long time ago in wrath

[rocky carbon]

i never played old wow

glad i didnt

[molten ore]

they were the most OP shit in the game basically

[rocky carbon]

since I wouldve never been like yeah ill try wow last year

[molten ore]

i don't have a good view of the class

very biased

lmao

[rocky carbon]

i think unholy is pretty cool

nice and chill to play

boomie is boring mage is pretty fun

imo

[pine karma]

I'm so looking forward to being a 1min class.

[wooden wharf]

subtlety with flag is around that atm 😉

[raw cloud]

so is outlaw with AR

[wooden wharf]

yes but sub does not hit like wet noodle during flag

[midnight dock]

Is there a tldr for assa in 9.2

[wooden wharf]

tl;dr is that you want the 4p set to play night fae

and probably play venthyr before that

[pine karma]

How are the sims looking for sub though? Is it still like 1k ahead of sin? 😮

[wooden wharf]

i have sims in the 9.2 thread for sub, but well..

[raw thunder]

well.....

[wooden wharf]

i mean if you are in the other thread... you did see that i did just find a .8% increase for it

and also still have a pv change not pushed that would add some more dps

[pine karma]

Oh damn

[wooden wharf]

but the tier set of subtlety will get adjusted

[pine karma]

That's very far ahead haha

[wooden wharf]

what means pure numbers are at this point less relevant

[pine karma]

I mean true, i'm guessing they wont really touch subs tuning knobs until all the bugs are ironed out.

Atleast i assume thats what they would do. 😒

[raw thunder]

sounds rad to learn sub tho

least it's giving the incentive to

[stiff fossil]

It is, being well versed in all 3 is always a good idea

[raw thunder]

well.....maybe not outlaw....

[pine karma]

I play sub aswell, i do prefer sin over sub, but i don't mind playing sub either. Outlaw however. I do not.

[raw thunder]

but sub for sure :)

[stiff fossil]

Pure dps classes don’t really have another choice

[wooden wharf]

we got told yesterday that bugfixes and tier set tuning might hit at the same time for all 3 specs

[pine karma]

X_x

[wooden wharf]

so would rly wait for tuning to cross compare

[stiff fossil]

If you like the class, you’re at the mercy of tuning and that means playing pirate sometimes

[raw thunder]

sub seems kinda harder to play

but idk

[stiff fossil]

Yeah actual numbers mean nothing atm

Fury warrior was simming giga high around this point in 9.1 ptr iirc

[wooden wharf]

sub is more punishing, but thats also fun

its higher risk/reward

[raw thunder]

wym by that? u miss a cd u fucked kinda thingM

?*

[pine karma]

But how come sin is so high on the logs right now? I asked this question in the other channel, at the start of SoD everyone was doing sub, now all the sins are on top. I mean not by a lot but they are there.

[stiff fossil]

Not necessarily fucked, but messing up is a lot more noticeable than it would be for sin for example

[wooden wharf]

not sure how punishing 9.2. sin will be

[stiff fossil]

Frost shards getting buffed

[wooden wharf]

could be more punishing with the tier set

[raw thunder]

hmm ok

[stiff fossil]

Frost hard carried sin (and outlaw) this tier

[raw thunder]

yeah :(

[pine karma]

I feel like there will be a lot of people that won't be able to keep up with exsang'ed vendetta.

the dots etc.

[wooden wharf]

9.2. def. changes some things up between specs, subtlety gets more outlaw like with random procs

[stiff fossil]

That depends on if scarizard decides to keep in the snapshotting or not by the time 9.2 goes live

[wooden wharf]

snapshotting/etc shift assassination more towards a cd stacking gameplay like subtlety has

[pine karma]

I don't mind snapshotting, i kinda like it actually.

Brings back memorys 😄

[wooden wharf]

tbh i didn't like the haste snapshotting in bfa

[stiff fossil]

Exsanguinate effects are just kind of boring

[wooden wharf]

*haste snapshot centric gameplay

i think its nice that the talent was relevant, but i don't think exsang is a healthy gameplay mechanic

[stiff fossil]

The gameplay change is that you now have to reapply your dots faster than you did before

And that’s kinda

[pine karma]

God i loved BFA's snapshotting and exsang gameplay 😄

[wooden wharf]

https://tenor.com/view/more-dots-gif-10004432

[pine karma]

Its kinda stupid when your running around with 150% haste though.

[wooden wharf]

^ sry, reminded me of this

[raw thunder]

XD

[stiff fossil]

That’s a 50 dkp minus

[pine karma]

That's an old vid 😄

[pearl maple]

How is NF/dusk with KA. Do we get Vendetta to like 45s and can line every other with 1.5 sepsis ?

[stiff fossil]

It’s essentially close to that without KA, but this is pretty much how it’ll play:

#916546791472783371 message

[compact sentinel]

what's gonna be the best covenant for raids in 9.2? i'm a noob when it comes to rogue but i want to try assassin rogue in the next raid

i raid with a fairly casual heroic guild

[raw thunder]

honestly just read this channel lol everything you'd want to know is either in pins or can be found recently

so far its lookin like NF and venthyr

but whisypr made a bunch of rad documents so check em out in the pins

[compact sentinel]

okay

[rose grail]

@stiff fossil any 14.1k sims in here?

[stiff fossil]

nah thats #subtlety

unfort

[rose grail]

kk just checking

[stiff fossil]

I can cook you up some 14.1k sims tho

just don't look at the profile

and take it as gospel

[scenic saddle]

3 min sim with PI + KA

[stiff fossil]

3 min? try 30s

[rose grail]

5 Target no lust please

[stiff fossil]

true true

where's the fuu response screenshot for that one

absolute gold

wait I'll try to recreate it

@wooden wharf can we do a 5T 15s sim with lust?

[wooden wharf]

sure feel free

also watch me hit 14.2k soon

[stiff fossil]

LOL

[wooden wharf]

(to then just get nerfed :/ and need to re-evaluate stuff again)

[stiff fossil]

that's the fun part though

[rose grail]

fuu is doing a whispyr like twitch stream over a messenger app

we high rollers now

[scenic saddle]

I don't like dungeon slice as a representative of a dungeon

that's amazing

[wraith sphinx]

RIP shiro

[rocky carbon]

sounds like a sick sim

[dry night]

I prefer 1 min but that's just me

Only 1min execute Sims

[rocky carbon]

i had a shower tired thought itdea

idea

[wraith sphinx]

Just do 6 min aoe sim or can you people not keep it up for more than 30-60 seconds

[dry night]

I can keep it up for about 2mins then I get bored

[rocky carbon]

keep up aoe?

[dry night]

Too much bleeding

[wooden wharf]

the problem at that time was that 30 secs would... well have half of the sim influenced by certain powers like ma

what does make the results rather... irrelevant

[wraith sphinx]

not if you remove teh stealth and vanish lines from the apl

[rocky carbon]

also a lot of other specs get juiced in that window

wait thats irrelevant

sorry im tired

[wooden wharf]

i don't think its reasonable to expect somone to touch the apl

[scenic saddle]

2 gcd sims or it's irrelevant

[rocky carbon]

my class is almost over

[dry night]

I have unironically simmed 1 min Sims or weird stuff to try and represent like downstairs phase in KT or burn phase in Fatescdibe when I was progging then

[rocky carbon]

then i can finally finish my lab and nap for a few hours

[dry night]

Fate I think is like 2min burn or something

But it generally comes up as the same thing as reg Sims just bigger number

[rocky carbon]

did you do fate as a 40% -> 0

[dry night]

Na no point cuz I wasn't gonna use blind side anyways

[rocky carbon]

yeah fair

[dry night]

Or zold

[rocky carbon]

adds mess with it anyway

[dry night]

Just wanted to see what wins between obed and dashing with the extra cast vs syncing one set in burn phase

But yeah 30sim is just trolling. Like ma leggo would seem really good lmao

But uhh anyways yeah I agree with seli rework deathspike

Necro could actually be really good if they did

[steep rampart]

Oh no, I'm gonna make both @wraith sphinx #reworkdeathspike and @proper veldt sad that when poking some more at SBS updates for T28 that Kevin might end up pulling ahead.

https://tenor.com/view/home-alone-catherine-o-hara-kate-mc-callister-pass-out-faint-gif-12025236

🤣

[dry night]

I think there's more Kevin fans than you think

[steep rampart]

I'm a huge Kevin fan

Whispyr is a Kevin hater though

[dry night]

Whispyr hates everything

[steep rampart]

He doesn't think Kevin is cute

[dry night]

Who doesn't want 50seconds of 6% dam increase coming from a little blob

[steep rampart]

Makes sense that Kevin has the most to gain here because it didn't really gain much from syncing with anything before

So now it has full gain from T28 syncage while the other two only get some minor improvement

[dry night]

Yeah

[steep rampart]

Also get to stack the Kevin debuff with T28 which is kinda neat I guess

[scenic saddle]

This is patchwerk 4p double leggo yeah?

[steep rampart]

yes

This has no impact on live sims, this is just T28 optimizations

[wraith sphinx]

i love kevin

[dry night]

Necro is so close to being good

[scenic saddle]

Still worse than kyrian

[steep rampart]

Necro with a functional legendary would definitely be strong

[scenic saddle]

I'd love to throw bone spikes but

[dry night]

I could even see it entering viable tier if they fixed the bugs with deathspike as is

[sterile swift]

Whíspyr did make good points last night that “if Necro is the best ST covenant, it eliminates all source of competition because it kind of does everything better.”

At least with cleave and what not.

[dry night]

But I'd much rather them just full rework deathspike ala flag/to

[sterile swift]

Obedience does make flag a powerful-ish aoe cooldown .
But
It’s neat that it’s not a complete meme

[dry night]

Ye it doesn't need to be the best ST it just needs to be closer

[scenic saddle]

If they were to rework it, it'd come in later patch yeah?

[dry night]

Like CN was a great Necro tier

[sterile swift]

It’s bordering the point where I just continue the meme

[steep rampart]

I mean honestly even if they don't rework Deathspike

[scenic saddle]

Prob not enough time to rework it and ship with 9.2

[steep rampart]

Just be like

[dry night]

Not quite bis ST but cleave value made it really good

[steep rampart]

"Serrated Bone Spike damage is increased by 50%" on the legendary

and call it good

[scenic saddle]

smart targeting / refunds on extra sbs from leggo good enough?

[steep rampart]

😛

[dry night]

Truuuuu

[steep rampart]

That would give like

250-300 dps and put it in the mix

[sterile swift]

That still seems a bit powerful

[steep rampart]

It's not really

[dry night]

50% would be a bit much

Ye

But the point of it

[steep rampart]

SBS is only like 7-8% of the damage of Necro on ST

[dry night]

Cuz wouldn't the 50% also go to the dot

[steep rampart]

That's including direct+dot

50% would be a 3-4% DPS increase

[dry night]

I would like to see something like that tho. I'd go Necro insta

[steep rampart]

Not saying that's my preferred option

But like

zdps leggo is still unacceptable imo

[dry night]

Even something like sbs deals extra % dam to targets already affected by sbs

Gives deathspike st value

[sterile swift]

It’s not 0, it’s like 0.1, if even that😛
The extra spikes, carrying

But yeah, even if it were like

A 2% legendary, it’d be hyper chill imo.
I clearly hate myself enough to run it this tier

But I’m also fine with going NF

[dry night]

Same I'm fine with all of it

But I've undoubtedly had more fun playing Necro than anything else

[scenic saddle]

necro on donny was very nice to play

[dry night]

NF seems fun to me cuz it's different and I enjoy different cuz of how much it bothers people and I can't ever escape my inner troll traits

[wooden wharf]

Kevin 📈

[gaunt tusk]

just noticed 4 set now speeds up sepsis

[wooden wharf]

how much would it be in cleave/aoe?

[rose grail]

kevin

[steep rampart]

Probably about double on sustained 3T

Only get extra DoT damage, no extra impact damage obviously

On 3T sustain SBS is about 11-12% of damage

instead of 7-8%

[wraith sphinx]

make the debuff stack

with deathspike

and give extra CP

so its like mfd

3stack on st giving 4cp

[proper veldt]

like I care about necro

[sterile swift]

I think there might be an LBE gain I found, mister Whispyr

[proper veldt]

[dry night]

Miss me with that lbe tho. Channeling fleshcraft as a dps ability feels gross

[scenic saddle]

press it and insta cancel it

edit: forgot pustules were a thing and now I feel pepega

[steep rampart]

You said the same about NF a few weeks ago

[sterile swift]

He was promised the devil’s buffs

Externals

[proper veldt]

I for one welcome our new deeper Strategem overlords

[sterile swift]

And he did a 360 no scope on NF sims

[proper veldt]

Nah but I’d be okay with necro

[dry night]

I think you have to full channel for the full stack of pimples

[scenic saddle]

yeah I edited that, I feel dumb dummb

[sterile swift]

Yeah, hearing you last night not actively meme it was nice

Got the actual feeling on record

[dry night]

Necro would probs play deeper too so

[sterile swift]

But I did agree with the “NL being best ST, might just be bad for covenant balance” point

[dry night]

Anything but mfd tbh, as used to it as I've gotten

[proper veldt]

I just wouldn’t like necro being the best single target or like really close to the best, and then having it be automatically the best cleave and the best aoe and the best m+ and the best

[dry night]

Ye I just want it to not be trolling in st is all

Like 3rd best would be fine

Options are never a bad thing

[scenic saddle]

but then you have to choose

[dry night]

I enjoy choosing a bit too much so maybe you're right

[sterile swift]

Even in current sims, like, it’s the worst, but it’s not some astronomical amount.

I’m not vouching for NL next tier, but “viability” is kind of a loose term on our covenant choice.

[rose grail]

he only cared about killing MFD. NF was the means to an end

[sterile swift]

There’s the best, close to best, and two non-trolly options

But effectively worse by all metrics.

Except for prototype

[dry night]

I guess what I mean is that I'd like to see Necro in a place where it's not just padding but able to do meaningful ST dam

Like in CN

[sterile swift]

Even now it does “meaningful ST dam” just worse than venthyr

[rose grail]

so basically anyone without any tier pieces

[sterile swift]

By like 300-400 on my toon.

[dry night]

Ye 3-400 is a scary number compared to 200

[sterile swift]

Even with Kevin gain, that’s still 500 diff from best

[scenic saddle]

200 is still kinda yikes though

[sterile swift]

Yeah?

[dry night]

True but when you consider cleave gains 200 is much more manageable

I.e. outlaw with kyrian vs venth and same with sub

[steep rampart]

Yeah Necro is still a ways behind

But anyway, gotta keep the APL fresh just in case 😛

Checked in all the Necro changes, should be gains across the board with T28 for all 3 Soulbinds (in different ways since they all have unique functionality with SBS... pain in the ass)

Of course maybe Necro would catch up if Vendetta temporarily increased the tick rate of SBS like was suggested at some point in the official thread, but I'm doubtful that would happen

Think it's too dangerous probably unless the overhang stuff gets totally removed and all DoTs recalculate on Vendetta fading

[weary nacelle]

my melees are still doing the most damage with nf

[dry night]

I think maybe you're just cursed

[weary nacelle]

over a 7 minute fight

[dry night]

But jokes aside I think the only way to really see what's up is to stream or something I guess

[scenic saddle]

did you ever post logs Delta

[pale roost]

That's honestly fine

[weary nacelle]

the spec isn't this hard, i can't comprehend whats wrong

[pale roost]

What's wrong with melee being your top damage?

We have melee as our top damage pretty often

[weary nacelle]

im told i should be doing like 10k and that melee shouldnt be my highest dmg

[dry night]

Nothing wrong with it I think Delta just worried they're doing something wrong

[pale roost]

Have you tried simming yourself

like I told you to?

[dry night]

My personal opinion is that it's target dummy and who cares

[weary nacelle]

i was gonna get to ittt >:P

[pale roost]

then do it

you sim yourself for a 5 min target dummy

then you compare the results to what you're doing

I doubt you should be seeing 10k

like omega doubt

Because I do around 8.5k as well

10k is bullshit

[weary nacelle]

_> im being lied to

[pale roost]

10k maybe with all raid buffs

without consumables

or the other way around

but not without both

[weary nacelle]

yeah no consumes on me

[pale roost]

just sim yourself

that's all

I can assure you

it will be between 8-9k

[steep rampart]

Yeah doing 10k on a dummy is very unlikely

[weary nacelle]

https://gyazo.com/5bc1a1d8f62ca4e4b74628008d379944

breakdown

[dry night]

What's your talent setup?

[pale roost]

Just sim yourself

Enough

No more questions

[weary nacelle]

yes sir

[pale roost]

Post a link to a sim here

[weary nacelle]

may take me a sec but im on it

[proper veldt]

whats wrong with that breakdown?

that's basically identical to a quick sim from my spreadsheet

[weary nacelle]

i swear everyone was telling me i was playing outlaw as assass and that i was doing something super wrong >_>

[steep rampart]

Unless you're in raid getting phat Frost procs melee is almost always gonna be your top DPS

[weary nacelle]

how do u even sim on ptr..

[proper veldt]

you have to put in some custom lines to sim with tier and stuff

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6YpDm9zkQ2re1n5qv6PHMB

but like

idk

looks good to me

[weary nacelle]

Well... that looks identical to almost every pull ive had

ive been griefed

[dry night]

Did you ever figure out what was causing the 94% rup uptime thing?

[proper veldt]

nah

just random jank

but it didn't seem to be an issue

so I just kinda ignored it

seemed fine to koji too

[steep rampart]

Might be able to optimize some bit more out of it, although even the live APL is "only" 97.5%

[proper veldt]

I don't even know where it's dropping it

I was like "oh 4 piece, yeah of course"

but that doesn't seem to be it

[steep rampart]

Might be at the end of fights potentially

[dry night]

Ye i'm sure it's something weird with end of fight + 4p or something

[steep rampart]

We're not modifying the end of fight TTD condition by the hasted percentage so

possible it's just dropping a few seconds there

[proper veldt]

I was noodling around with some lines that got it back to 97

but it wasn't even a gain

so

but yeh

I assume that's it as well

I'm still looking through dslice stuff this week

that's next on the docket

so I'll see if it pops out there if you haven't found it koji

[steep rampart]

Could maybe find something small by changing the fallback case to !will_lose_exsanguinate in ST but not sure if it will be DPS positive or not. I'll poke around as well.

[dry night]

At first I was wondering if it had to do with letting it fall off for a second here and there for snapshotted rup but I remember whisp checking that too

[steep rampart]

Doesn't happen in the opener by the looks of it but it could potentially happen at some other random offsets

There's a bit of a feedback loop problem where the hasted DoT ticks mean your energy is high so pooling is likely not on the table all the time

Dropping an Envenom and building back up likely is still more DPS in those situations

Even if it means the DoT drops briefly

But will look into it

[weary nacelle]

does shiv before sepsis or sepsis directly after shiv matter at all

prolly not

[molten ore]

Yeah

[weary nacelle]

shiv first?

[molten ore]

Pretty sure you want to shiv first yes

[weary nacelle]

alright great

i been doin that

[molten ore]

To get sepsis initial hit to be buffed

[weary nacelle]

ohh

aight

ty

[rocky carbon]

nah i think you sepsis first

[steep rampart]

Played around with this a bit last night and didn't actually see any difference

Whispyr was gonna look into it more

[rocky carbon]

oop guess it doesnt matter

i always heard sepsis -> shiv before tho

[steep rampart]

Currently the APL uses it after iirc, which looks wrong potentially in some cases, but swapping them around didn't seem to be a DPS increase when I tried

But that was before the 4pc affecting Sepsis was in so will need to retest with the extra tick window

[rocky carbon]

what ive been noticing is sepsis first has them end at the same time, which I assume is maximum sepsis uptime during shiv

[molten ore]

i asked a couple days ago and was told shiv -> sepsis and it does matter

[dry night]

Sepsis -> shiv so that your sepsis pop is inside of shiv

[molten ore]

what, when is the pop?

the end?

[dry night]

expiration yeah

[pale roost]

Yes.

[rocky carbon]

sepsis increases in damage during the dot doesnt it?

[pale roost]

It's also the reason we use Vanish at the end when playing Master Assassin

[dry night]

you miss one tick of the conduit empowered sepsis in favor of the pop

[pale roost]

No, it decreases in damage.

[rocky carbon]

kk

[pale roost]

Because of the Septic Shock conduit

[rocky carbon]

oh right

i knew it was scaling one way or the other

[pale roost]

A lot of damage from the dot early on, which goes down

[dry night]

it's a bass ackwards conduit imo but it's chill

[pale roost]

And then a bonk at the end

Would be nutty if it was the other way around

[molten ore]

ahh the way i read it the bonk was at the beginning idr who was saying it though

[steep rampart]

This is why I'm Rank 3 healing all star and you're only Rank 7.

[rocky carbon]

[proper veldt]

[rocky carbon]

I think I hit rank 6 now actually

[steep rampart]

The real trick is to make sure you proc Cheat Death at least once per pull for the phat healing

[proper veldt]

sepsis is affected by the 4 piece

it's should be shiv->sepsis

[rocky carbon]

oh nvm

[scenic saddle]

5

[rocky carbon]

rank 5 now

[proper veldt]

the only thing to care about is 1 gcd of sepsis vs 1 gcd of garrote with blades

[steep rampart]

I mean I know that's the theory although I honestly didn't see it last night

I flipped all the Shiv/Vendetta/Sepsis order around in the different configurations

[molten ore]

yeah i asked you a couple days ago i knew i wasn't tripping

[proper veldt]

yeah but it ain't about bonk/no bonk

[steep rampart]

And they were all like -0.2

So idk

[proper veldt]

and that's with sepsis being affected?

[steep rampart]

Wait until this becomes the great MA into Envenom vs. MA into Mutilate argument 😄

[molten ore]

i mean that doesn't really matter

[rocky carbon]

does it really not though?

[molten ore]

but it becomes bigger gap than usual if running MFD doesn't it

?

[weary nacelle]

i MA into envenoms >:) i am a fiend

[molten ore]

not really

[scenic saddle]

so as of right now the apl is wrong?

[proper veldt]

as of right now the apl is right

but I don't trust it

[rocky carbon]

you dont understand koji is saying this is the next useless argument that him and whispyr will talk about

[molten ore]

[scenic saddle]

[desert hull]

[molten ore]

i do understand

[scenic saddle]

can you elaborate on the 1gcd of shb garrote vs sepsis

[rocky carbon]

wasnt there an issue with ambush vs mutilate too

[molten ore]

or were you trolling

[proper veldt]

if it were a useless argument it would be sepsis stealth ability

[molten ore]

[scenic saddle]

because I don't get it tbh

[steep rampart]

People will ask about it over and over and one will be like +5 DPS and it literally won't matter but it'll be the most common topic that comes up when people talk about parses as if someone just swapping one global around in their opener is gonna magically give them 2k DPS and a pink parse. 😄

[rocky carbon]

true

i like pink parses

theyre cozy

[desert hull]

dont forget to ambush

🙂

[rocky carbon]

not this patch 😉

[steep rampart]

But yes, it's certainly possible the hasted addition will change this

Needs to be re-tested

[deep sleet]

people will ignore the 80% crit on winds of winter and focus on whether theyre using vigor or MfD

[molten ore]

this also, i don't understand

[steep rampart]

It definitely is correct how it is without that though, so it depends on if the hasted ticks can make up the -0.2-0.4 it already has

[rocky carbon]

or more likely ignore the 20 buffs

[deep sleet]

truuuuu

[steep rampart]

Probably will, but not sure if it will be enough more to make it significantly more than neutral

[proper veldt]

I mean okay vigor is like noticeably worse though that's not really an argument

[desert hull]

with running DS whats the rule on CP for dots does that change?

[rocky carbon]

bs/ds vs ep/mfd though.....

[molten ore]

raid leaders everywhere say vigor is better

[proper veldt]

yeah that sims about equal

[molten ore]

because they're ill informed by WCL

[proper veldt]

max-1 like always

[desert hull]

ty whispyr

[proper veldt]

damage doesn't go up with more cp

[rocky carbon]

I'm doing sims with KA for this later

[proper veldt]

it's the same tick damage

just lasts longer

[rocky carbon]

I need to get a good guardian log

[steep rampart]

I can FEEL not having Vigor man. That 1 energy/sec. I notice that 1 extra Mutilate every minute. Unplayable. 😄

[desert hull]

dont have enough haste 😄

[weary nacelle]

big flag big flag big flag

the extra few stacks on flag hit different

[rocky carbon]

now flag getting parried that I can feel

[molten ore]

[steep rampart]

Yeah ironically the main reason anyone feels the difference in the opener with Vigor is just the extra 50 max energy, not the regen

[deep sleet]

i feel like the joke fell flat or it went over your head

[proper veldt]

I still don't see the joke

so I guess that's me

[deep sleet]

was in response to koji's 2k dps comment

[rocky carbon]

thats it

[scenic saddle]

I mean before dashing feeding us energy bs/ds vs ep/vigor was noticeably worse to play

[rocky carbon]

I'm playing vigor tonight

😈

[wraith sphinx]

look in the mirror

[stiff fossil]

says the guy with a hashtag in his name

[elder bear]

Yes

Rework deathspike

Im going to join this hashtag

[stiff fossil]

they already did when they gut it

its okay to be sad about it

just remember it's outlaws fault deathspike sucks

[elder bear]

Y but

Just rework it

[sacred sonnet]

Outlaw is the red-headed stepchild

[elder bear]

And maybe make It deals less aoe

And give to the leggo ST

[rose grail]

you got a problem with that?

[weary nacelle]

what would your idea be for a reworked deathspike?

[molten ore]

stacking damage on extra casts to the same target

[rose grail]

stack the debuff ez fix

[molten ore]

nah stacking initial damage

stacking the debuff would be too broken

[weary nacelle]

bro this would be broken on ST lol

[rose grail]

i don’t see them replacing it at this point

it’s broken now all the time

[molten ore]

stacking initial damage wouldn't be broken

[rose grail]

fix it and tune it

[molten ore]

if it were made to do stacking damage (within a certain number of seconds of last cast)

you'd basically just spend all 5 charges on pull, using finishers between where necessary

and you'd pool charges and spend them during Heirmir buff or you'd pool them and use them again in quick succession later on

when you're about to reach 5 charges again

very simple

[rose grail]

does it even need that many charges? shrug

[stiff fossil]

[deep sleet]

make it stack the dot but only for like 10 seconds

so first stack is perma, but you can throw more spikes on one target and the extra stacks only last for 10 seconds, make it work like mongoose bite where consecutive stacks dont reapply all stacks

i think 10 seconds is reasonable, anything above that might start to have an effective 100% uptime on two stacks

[dry night]

You don't even have to do that

Just make it do like 30% additional damage to targets already affected by bone spike

[elder bear]

Or Just a Total rework

[steep rampart]

Just make it give 50 extra charges instead.

[elder bear]

Maybe

[steep rampart]

Honestly don't even care what they do with it. Could be redesigned or augmented in a ton of ways

[elder bear]

Or 5000% damage

[steep rampart]

Just don't want it to do nothing lol

[elder bear]

👺⚔️

[steep rampart]

Or be a buggy mess

[elder bear]

They'll never rework btw

Who cares bout that

Me Seli and other two mates

[steep rampart]

I'm a true Necrolord believer

[elder bear]

But the thing Is, why do a cov leggo Just for aoe

That didnt make much sense

[proper veldt]

Because necrolord is the only aoe cov we have

And it should stay that way

Stay back necro raiders

[elder bear]

Whyspyr Is a nfae enjoier

How could you be

[proper veldt]

I’m a “anything that isn’t mfd” enjoyer

Legit swapped to sub this tier rather than playing mfd sin

[elder bear]

I feel sepsis so disconnected from rogue

Maybe Is Just me

[pale roost]

Sepsis disconnected?

The ability that "infects the targets blood"

A legitimate dot ability

idk how more rogue-like an ability can be to be honest

[steep rampart]

Bio-engineered poisons are the best!

[elder bear]

Ok

Or maybe

I Just hate the Blue light

[pale roost]

[elder bear]

Sbs 👺

[pale roost]

Oh the ability which you toss from a hundred miles away on a target?

Doesn't sound really stealthy or rogue-like to me

[elder bear]

Exaclty

[pale roost]

[elder bear]

It.give an aoe shot

Wasnt you a necro enjoier last patch?

Traitor

[pale roost]

I never said I wasn't

SBS is still the best ability we have

[elder bear]

You must be

[pale roost]

but I never claimed that it was "rogue-like"

[elder bear]

The fae Mood blindend you

[pale roost]

Go to sleep

You're drunk

[elder bear]

Is funny because Is true

[steep rampart]

cough https://www.wowhead.com/spell=272911/sharpened-blades

[pale roost]

disgusting.

[steep rampart]

Don't worry, I got it deleted. Doing god's work.

Nightstalker APL too stronk 🤣

I still do think Shuriken Toss and PK are underutilized abilities

[empty magnet]

bonespike in raid is cringe

no thanks

just make it stronger in aoe

giga omega aoe bonespike god

[vernal spoke]

so glad u have so much influence

[steep rampart]

lol not so much I said it should be deleted, I just found optimizations that made it broken af so the dev gave up trying to tune it and nuked it

It was so weak they severely over-buffed it and allowed it to be levered with Nightstalker for Assassination and Find Weakness for Sub

and they never accounted for that

so it went from like 2% Azerite to 18% Azerite

basically overnight

Instead of nerfing it again they just redesigned it into adding Echoing Blades

I just joke about it because it was a really funny case of them not following the numbers closely enough to get it appropriately balanced, unfortunately. They were kinda just blindly looking at HeroDamage charts and said "oh it's at 2% and we want it at 9% so let's buff it by 4.5x" or whatever
Once the PvP guys found out about the CD stacking with it and used it on the tournament realm, it was donezo. So I guess PvP guys can get blamed for it in the end, but it was gonna get nuked anyway.

[steep rampart]

What about Bonespike in raid is cringe? I played it all of CN and almost all of SoD prog. Bonespike is great. It's a cheap builder that fills in globals easily. Fleshcraft is super good. And Necro soulbinds are solid.

[empty magnet]

resetting off trash mobs

and the fact that you had to use it during gemstones instead of when you wanted

i do like fleshcraft though

[steep rampart]

I mean Gemstone always lined up with Vendetta anyway so it doesn't really matter

[empty magnet]

yea but i just wanted to be able to do it with shivs

and you couldn't

iuno just felt weird

[steep rampart]

Well you can in 9.2 😛

[empty magnet]

o.o

[steep rampart]

Syncing with Shiv is the optimal approach now

With the set bonus buffing it

Since the 2pc buffs SBS

[empty magnet]

that's actually pog then

i'm cool with it in raid if that's the case