9.2 Feedback and Discussion

[elfin vale]

LMFAO

there it is

[proper veldt]

I mean it sort of makes sense from an irritated theorycrafter PoV. Not everyone wants to sim until 5am like me and come up with elaborate legendary and tier set and nonsense. They shit is also bugged to hell so there's no real point in them releasing numbers and APL to the masses to consume only for it to snap back on them with some clown spreading trash around

[deep sleet]

vanish might be worth a few %, not 20%+

[elfin vale]

pulled a Liquid Max

[steep rampart]

But I don’t think Wordup or even Rogues are required to always roll out WIP changes or experimental things especially in PTR

[mint current]

also cool shit about rogue is we have a lot of people with knowledge of more or less how simcraft works

[pale roost]

@steep rampart @proper veldt good points, kings.

[weary nacelle]

let me try again..

[elfin vale]

sad thing is that, it wasn't even optimized sims... like the info he had behind paywall was ALSO wrong

[mint current]

other classes/specs have like 99% clueless people

[steep rampart]

But paywall is lame

[mint current]

yea funniest shit is simc is open source

[rose grail]

rogues in general have been a very community oriented approach

[elfin vale]

I mean that one dude who shared the dagger bug in #tc-research could have kept it for himself

[mint current]

yea like in here or sub/outlaw you see a lot of people talking about how things would work in simcraft

[rose grail]

for a very long time

[elfin vale]

but like

idk

[proper veldt]

oh and also apparently the shaman apl is getting a fairly large rebuild and they don't want inexperienced people touching it and going "oh but this gain" when they're still working on the rewrite or whatever

from what I hear at least

[elfin vale]

people are super open with cheese and dmg shit in this discord

[steep rampart]

Yeah and I think that’s reasonable tbh

[mint current]

i mean we did find deathly/dust things etc since beta and also refined palate etc

we are bug catchers royale

[proper veldt]

too many cooks in the kitchen type shit

and some of the cooks are cooked

[mint current]

yea well core is not touched as much by many

[rose grail]

make me a pizza

[mint current]

makes sense if they dont want many changes from diff people

[pale roost]

That's great reasoning, sounds good to me.

[weary nacelle]

is it niya or dreamweaver

[pale roost]

Dreamweaver

[proper veldt]

dream beaver

[weary nacelle]

maybe thats whats going on

[proper veldt]

🦫

[elfin vale]

triple potency dream

[weary nacelle]

i was using niya

[proper veldt]

I mean

[pale roost]

Don't worry

[proper veldt]

niya isn't -3k

[pale roost]

It won't change a thing

[proper veldt]

niya is like -200

[weary nacelle]

prolly fucking the opener then

no clue

[elfin vale]

dont forget, vanish also resets your dmg

on dummy

[mint current]

ok just post a log tbh every thing you say is kind of minor

XD

[weary nacelle]

ive been holding vanish because of that

[mint current]

but hey taking one by one maybe it is like 1k more or less

you can put details on overall

so it does not reset on vanish

just remember to wipe it first before beginning pulling

[weary nacelle]

https://gyazo.com/2d49396acb11b88ea48723c25db45114

this is the damage breakdown

did a bit better this time

starting higher than before but still holding to around 8.6

[deep sleet]

oh thats not good looking

[mint current]

hmm ye

[deep sleet]

melee shouldnt be your top dam haha

[weary nacelle]

refreshing dots too fast in vendetta?

[deep sleet]

youre refreshing them IN pandemic yeah?

[mint current]

remember pandemic changes in vendetta

[deep sleet]

look for the flashy lights

[rose grail]

did you activate your soulbinds and put conduits in?

[mint current]

oh good one

[weary nacelle]

yeah

[molten ore]

many pandemic timers ill be scuffed during vendetta

and still show old pandemics

[weary nacelle]

soulbinds are active

as far as i know

Prob a decent rule of thumb to just refresh as late as possible for most

[rose grail]

do you have the proper legendary equipped?

[molten ore]

yeah i've been refreshing under 3 seconds

[mint current]

good thing garrote is same cd as pandemic almost

[weary nacelle]

i had 26 envenoms and 17 ruptures

[molten ore]

to try and be safe

[weary nacelle]

duskwalkers

[rose grail]

are you autoattakk?

[weary nacelle]

lmfao

yes my melee was my highest damage

so I was

Uhhhh

Is shiv not in your details?

[rose grail]

we gonna be here 12 hours figuring this shit out

[weary nacelle]

my weapons are 272 compared to the other gear

lmao

no clue

shiv is 15

at the very bottom

How many shiv casts

6

[deep sleet]

wait i actually havent even thought about that

[weary nacelle]

That feels low. How long was the test

i think i missed shivs

the test was 2 min 30

[deep sleet]

then thats accurate

[weary nacelle]

That's not it then

yea

nvm

[deep sleet]

shiv casts that it

[weary nacelle]

i was doing math slowly

lol

o-o o well ill try again in a bit

Are you overwriting rupture and garrote after vendetta before they fall off?

That wouldn't be 2k though

was rupturing and garroting right before vendetta expired

to keep the fast tick

as i thought i should

[brazen spear]

No you refresh with 3s remaining

And let them go to 0

[weary nacelle]

Not when vendetta is about to fall.

i thought refreshing right before vend wouldve been good maybe thats it?

Unless something has changed you re-up dots as late as you can in vendetta even if it's out of pandemic.

But I haven't kept up with much of the apl changes since like the first day of ptr, so that could be out of date

[brazen spear]

Yeah 3s is enough time to refresh both before vendetta ends

[weary nacelle]

Regardless, as long as your vend and garrote uptimes are high and you're not missing casts of vendetta, they should be doing more damage than auto attacks.

They were both like 98

Every test

A mystery

when I did the opener right it was a lot better but still ended up staying around the -2k area

Guess I’ll try more later

I was sitting around 10.4k on my dummy tests without vanish and buffs, and felt like I wasn't playing optimally

[brazen spear]

Wait dude your picture has you playing sub

https://gyazo.com/2d49396acb11b88ea48723c25db45114

Shadow blades?

Ahh nvm it’s prob just details error

[weary nacelle]

Toxic onslaught....

[rocky carbon]

from TO

[rose grail]

legendaries

[deep sleet]

lol

[brazen spear]

Oh I see

[weary nacelle]

How would he be using Mut as sub

[deep sleet]

or garrote

or PB

[rose grail]

very carefully

[deep sleet]

LOL

[weary nacelle]

XD

[rocky carbon]

literally everything besides rupture

[rose grail]

can we see buff uptime? 😇

[deep sleet]

its an overall details meter with him swapping specs every few globals

[weary nacelle]

Buffs were all near 99

The mastery on the gear is very low if poison damage is the issue maybe

[rose grail]

i just want to know how you’re using mutilate as outlaw

[deep sleet]

since when did mages use shadowgrasp totem?

[weary nacelle]

Lmao 😭

[rose grail]

which target dummy are you on?

[weary nacelle]

This one was on the training

Raiders or dungeon

Dmg was lower before it was on raiding and dungeon

got parried a bit

Stand behind it

the small one basically

is what i was using

That still shouldn't be 2k though

yeah idk

If anything the parries should make your bleeds a higher total of your damage

True 😳

[rose grail]

what talents you running?

[weary nacelle]

Same as usual except using subterfuge instead of MA

[deep sleet]

vigor or Deeper

[weary nacelle]

Bigot

Nice

Auto correct t

Vigor

Lol

[deep sleet]

i was so confused LOL

[weary nacelle]

HAHA I’m sorry

[deep sleet]

scared me thought i typed vigor wrong had a heartattack

[weary nacelle]

nonono

Hahaha my bad

My phone

I’ve never even typed that word in my life

Deepers better, but super marginal I believe

[proper veldt]

Not that marginal tbh

[weary nacelle]

Is deeper the go to now?

[proper veldt]

It’s like 1.5%

[deep sleet]

its around like 100 isnt it

[weary nacelle]

I didn’t know that

[deep sleet]

more than that yeh

[proper veldt]

150ish

Depending on cov

[weary nacelle]

That's not 2k though

[proper veldt]

Yeh

[weary nacelle]

:D

I mean I guess if there's 12 things that are all 150 that adds up, but as far as I can tell we're talking like 400 DPS in talents/soulbinds. Somethings missing

It’s just me having NF issues, not like this on venthyr

[dry night]

just take the 150 x 13 and there you go ezpz

[weary nacelle]

I just rip everything on cd

[deep sleet]

youre syncing the shiv to CDs right

[weary nacelle]

Unless shiv can be paired with sepsis

yea

[deep sleet]

not like LITERALLY on CD

[weary nacelle]

I just ment like

Vendetta sepsis on cd

Syncing shiv with cds

Will try again in 5 min

[rose grail]

add up the auto attacks and compare to your percent

that’s from the 2L 4T NF sim

[weary nacelle]

Will take a look

[weary nacelle]

What's the unbuffed 5min single target dps?

I can't seem to get the ptr Sims to work for me

[rose grail]

the what? that’s from Whispyrs sims

[weary nacelle]

Yeah. But that's with raid buffs right?

[proper veldt]

Yeah of course

Wft and everything

[weary nacelle]

I'm curious what an unbuffed looks like just to see if I'm doing something wrong when I hit a dummy

[proper veldt]

I can send a sim with that in a bit

[weary nacelle]

<3

[proper veldt]

Just got to work but give me an hour

[rose grail]

you’ll paranoid/obsessed with this. plenty of time to sort it out.

[weary nacelle]

Nah. I'm just bored

Rather test rotation than play another game of League of Inters

https://gyazo.com/f93f1370ec23ab55fc112c8a6024e517

can't escape the melee

s

[rose grail]

I’d suggest try testing other variation as well then.

[rocky carbon]

do you have the aa ring?

[weary nacelle]

the wut ring

[rocky carbon]

nevermind then

[stiff fossil]

the court of stars ring

[rose grail]

the buffed sim setup has melee at 14%

[weary nacelle]

no i don't

one of my rings are 246 the other is the leggo

[molten ore]

so heroic/mythic week 1 if we go in with 1 leggo

should we be running DB again?

or just Obe likely

(until 2nd leggo is unlocked)

[rocky carbon]

dusk is only with 4 set and fae is with 2 set

[molten ore]

basically what i'm wondering is at what point does TO or Dusk over take

[rose grail]

you can sim that now just get rid of shards.

[molten ore]

yeah

i will likely sim myself as well i'm just curious on others' takes

[rocky carbon]

TO isn't good its fae thats good

[weary nacelle]

Btw

[molten ore]

true ag

[rose grail]

I mean the answer is sim yourself with your gear and adjust for the fights

[molten ore]

if we had our 2p and went NF what leggo would we use

hmmm

[rocky carbon]

I'm gonna say doomblade

[molten ore]

i'm thinking the same

[rocky carbon]

but like

venthyr obe until 2p

[molten ore]

i mean this is obvious i'm simply trying to discuss

[rocky carbon]

and dusk when we get 4p

[molten ore]

yeah i'm kinda thinking the same

ngl necro doomblade

would be pretty sick to play again

[rocky carbon]

well

you don't get to

[molten ore]

i know, i know

[rocky carbon]

unless you feel like it

heroic week is probably gonna be chill anyway

[molten ore]

Dusk/DS i think has potential

for the parse on certain fights

hopefully they fix the bugs

[rocky carbon]

wdym

[molten ore]

necro

double leggo

[rocky carbon]

i mean idk

[molten ore]

like just for the fun later on, during farm

[rocky carbon]

the target counts are a little low for deathspike

on most of the bosses anyway

[molten ore]

yeah

i see 3 at least

that'd be ok

[proper veldt]

Infexious was talking a lot of hype with necro on like prototype and stuff

I don’t see it

[rocky carbon]

[molten ore]

i mean it definitely won't be a prog thing

just for fun on farm i think

[proper veldt]

Yeah he’s talking prog

[molten ore]

yeah nah

i don't think our aoe is ever worth changing that much for

we running CT on xymox?

[proper veldt]

Yeh

[molten ore]

thought so

[proper veldt]

CT on a lot of fights tbh

[stiff fossil]

if only poison bomb didn't suck

oh well

[molten ore]

yeah a lot of fights look good for ct

[rocky carbon]

what about venthyr

[molten ore]

wdym

[rocky carbon]

like

would venthyr be good in higher target fights

where we still need to hit boss

[proper veldt]

Yeah

[molten ore]

sepsis is like

full ST ability isn't it

besides maybe the AR/SB at the end

[proper veldt]

Korayn exists though

[rocky carbon]

the haste from dreamweaver is probably somewhat a gain in aoe

[molten ore]

ye ik

[stiff fossil]

eh

[rocky carbon]

and the dreamweaver damage buff thing

[proper veldt]

Dreamweaver on aoe fights feels wrong

[rocky carbon]

and korayn exists but it would be worse than theotar anyway no?

[molten ore]

korayn's first strike shit

is pretty good

[proper veldt]

Nah

Korayn is stronger than theo

[rocky carbon]

is korayn+sepsis stronger than theo+obe

[proper veldt]

Yeah

[rocky carbon]

so then venthyr isn't ever better and you lied to me

[proper veldt]

?

[molten ore]

[stiff fossil]

you didn't ask if it'd be better

[rocky carbon]

i thought that was what we were talking about

i didnt think I had to say it

[proper veldt]

It depends what situation you’re in, I’m sure there’s some situation where venth wins

I’m not skynet

[rocky carbon]

yeah I was just curious if it would ever actually be worth going

[rose grail]

only with mfd so it’s a loss

[proper veldt]

I don’t have 4 target 3:30 min comparisons in my head

[rocky carbon]

or at least seem worth going

[proper veldt]

Yeah I mean venth and fae are very competitive with each other

It’ll probably be a toss up

[rocky carbon]

I didn't expect you have sims to I was just trying to talk about it

[proper veldt]

If you can get frequent korayn resets fae probably good

If you can’t, probably venth

[rose grail]

korayn just slaps

[dry night]

korayn does slap

[rose grail]

example arms warriors padding on sylvanas instead of running dreamweaver

[dry night]

i'm thinking the only time that you'd maybe go venth would be if fights end up having hold dps+ burn situations where you'd end up holding vend for flag anyways

but even then idk

[rose grail]

even if they’re close, soulshape vs door dash.

[rocky carbon]

this would be like waves of adds then? or adds spawning after each other?

door dash is fine tbh

[rose grail]

it’s shit

[dry night]

Like lihivum is korayn

[rose grail]

sylvanas p1 and p2

[rocky carbon]

i havent found myself wishing I had soulshape ever, and I used doordash on sylvanas

[dry night]

anduin depending on the boss dps check is probs korayn

[rocky carbon]

doordash is definitely better for sylvanas since the distances are so far imo

[dry night]

there seems to be a lot of fights that have lots of add prio type stuff where you hard swap to adds

pantheon etc

[rocky carbon]

halondrus

[dry night]

na i wouldn't say that one

in my testing the pillars were getting deleted while vend was still on boss

[rocky carbon]

dont you swap to the pillars

oh cool

[dry night]

but if they were to tune pillars up to be more challenging then yeah maybe korayn wins. i'm just not sure at what target count korayn beats DW

[molten ore]

door of shadows on sylvanas is pretty goated ngl

you can be back at the boss instantly after veils

because you can Door when she has 1.4sec on her cast

was pretty dope

[rocky carbon]

soulshape has more cases where its useful

but we already have sprint and shadowstep that normally bridge that gap

its obviously better than door but I don't think we're gonna end up using it drastically more

[dry night]

soulshape seems more useful in this raid so far but door isn't too far behind since we're used to the cast time by now

[rocky carbon]

cant wait for cross faction when i get my turbo useful void elf tp

😍

[molten ore]

[sacred sonnet]

Vold elves need their own toilet paper?

[weary nacelle]

Artificer actual trash fight

[elfin vale]

@weary nacelle buggy fight

good fight in concept tho

[weary nacelle]

Even in concept I hate the constant ability spam

Waves come out too often and on mythic testing the platforms are up too quickly.

[dry night]

yeah some fight timings are def weirdge

[deep sleet]

if xymox pans out as it should, its a smooth fight

[vestal dagger]

It seems fairly bug rn

[raw thunder]

that's the teleport dude right? that shit seemed a lil bugged yeah

[weary nacelle]

Think I’m nightfae challenged

[elfin vale]

@weary nacelle Bro are you still hitting that training dummy on PTR???? LMAO

[vast cairn]

10 hours of smashing sepsis, must be fun @weary nacelle

[raw thunder]

u hating that's gonna be me in 5 minutes

[weary nacelle]

Lmao no I came back once before I went to sleep to try it out again 😭

[mystic lake]

Good morning everyone

Is NF still 200dps ahead?

[stiff fossil]

seeing as nothing's changed in the last 24 hours, yes

[wise harbor]

how about now?

[sterile swift]

Still no changes

Ask again in 14 minutes and 15 seconds tho

[raw thunder]

how about now

[mystic lake]

Yeah, I was never good making jokes.

[rose grail]

@stiff fossil NF still ahead?

[stiff fossil]

No it’s taking a nap right now

It’s even with venthyr until it wakes up

[rose grail]

well fuck

[stiff fossil]

[rose grail]

ima just soulshape away

[proper veldt]

I heard nf ahead whats the deal with that

[rose grail]

theory crafters trying to keep mfd down

that’s the deal. maybe

[mint current]

brutosaur form living rent free in their heads

[versed rivet]

Is vendetta reducing the amount of time needed for sepsis to grant buff from legendary?

[gaunt tusk]

dont think 4 set speeds up sepsis, just 2 set buffs damage by 40%

so id guess it wouldnt reduce the time for leggo buff

[proper veldt]

you still fit the whole thing into vendetta

without sepsis compression

so it's whatever

[gaunt tusk]

anyone tried MA leggo and subterfuge and just staying stealth until you need to refresh garrot, would only work for pull though I suppose

[pale roost]

This is super cringe and does not work

There's so much more damage coming through our auto-attacks and poisons

It is pretty much never worth just sitting in MA

[gaunt tusk]

fair enough, ptr only a test suggestion

[steep rampart]

Have looked into it many times in the past and it never appeared to be a win

Losing AA/Poisons is generally too much

Likely some micro-optimizations for it in a practical situation but they are minor

(very minor)

[gaunt tusk]

and you could just get damaged and put back into combat anyway

[steep rampart]

Shadowcore Oil pulls us out of stealth if not using Stones too 😦

Found that out the hard way lol

[wooden wharf]

subtlety had a very strong case of it for a while (in legion)

because you could wait in vanish to proc stealth, but even that was enough to be negative in output

[dry night]

So I take it NF is still ahead right ?

[weary nacelle]

Yes :(

[rose grail]

just fuck up playing NF and Venthyr is back to BiS

🧠

[weary nacelle]

Like me :)

[rose grail]

I wasn’t going to name names

[stiff fossil]

nah it was kyrian all along

except you play tiny toxic blade and then delete your character

secret tech

don't tell anyone

[winged zephyr]

gimme credit

that was my line

[dry night]

Ok thanks 😊

[proper veldt]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/raid-weapons-loot-table/1170847/2

TLDR dagger off last 3

At higher ilvl

[raw thunder]

huh

[scenic saddle]

Scarizard writes good

I like them

[rocky carbon]

dude

I didnt even realize it was scarizard

of course it was

[desert hull]

GIGA

[rocky carbon]

thats not for us

thats for casters

[raw thunder]

LMFAO

i saw int and was like why this guy gettin hyped

hyped for them casters tho

[rocky carbon]

dont think ours is in yet

[desert hull]

i know i just wanted to see if anyone saw

let me troll

[raw thunder]

oh lmfao

based

u got me bro

[desert hull]

its the only way to summon whispyr

jk

[rocky carbon]

but yeah cool

rygelon dagger

[raw thunder]

these trinkets kinda cracked tbh

[pearl maple]

get sack from tazavesh. mastery nf gamers

[raw thunder]

sack?

[dry night]

sack nerfed

[sacred sonnet]

Sack sacked

[raw thunder]

xd

[proper veldt]

Sack suck

[pearl maple]

sack nerfed who

[sacred sonnet]

Sack sacked sack, so sacked sack sucks

[raw thunder]

........

thats sacked as fuck bro

[dry night]

guys jpc said that sin tier is just meh so plz give buff

[severe verge]

re: the post - we’re going to be adding an Agility Dagger to Rygelon (Boss 10)

enjoy ur dagger

[dry night]

I was jk about the meh thing btw obviously super happy with our tier and it's current tuning

[severe verge]

it is also not a cantrip dagger

but i was not heartless

so you have the star appearance

if i put a dagger on rygelon and just said 'here's the other visual' when casters get the star one

i would be heartless

[rose grail]

haha now just don’t look at the sub channel and people freaking out of EoN still

[elfin vale]

Scari have you guys figured out internally how to fix the EoN bug yet? or are there problems you guys are facing regarding it?

[severe verge]

i want to say i just hotfixed it

so

[elfin vale]

Pog

lets go

[severe verge]

it is either live or about to be

[elfin vale]

ty ty

Oh wait wow that recent?

ya that was actually one of my biggest concern(s) over everything

esp for next tier prog

[rocky carbon]

don't mind missing a cantrip dagger at all

high ilvl or special effect is totally cool

just glad we aren't getting overlooked

[severe verge]

why ping

[rocky carbon]

[severe verge]

basically - I tried to outline these ideas in the post bc they are not all encompassing but

[elfin vale]

people forgetting that replying in discord actually pings people

[severe verge]

if we make someone the final boss of a tier, we probably did so for a reason

which means i am gonna try to find something cool to do

inevitably this means there will be ilvl+cantrip gear like jaithys or eon

but also my good lady killed saurfang with those things. i am not just gonna slap crit/vers on 'em and call it a day

[elfin vale]

also Scari, side note. 4/6 on the tier list

thats a W brother

[severe verge]

5/6 not ass

gang

[rocky carbon]

bro jpc was just complaining about tuning

[elfin vale]

GANG

[rocky carbon]

mostly

so i would call it a huge W

[elfin vale]

also honestly Sin should be above Overall Meh

JPC doesnt know the NF snapshot

[rocky carbon]

i dont think he wants to go nf

[elfin vale]

but I do agree that its not fun only because of how drastically different the rotation is now

but thats also because fun is subjective and comfort reasons

[rocky carbon]

different rotation doesnt make it unfun thats kinda a weird take

at least not inherently

[elfin vale]

but it doesnt because fun is subjective

yeah

like its obviously not fun to hold shiv for certain timings and other reasons

[rocky carbon]

other classes do that all the time

[elfin vale]

right but there is also comfort

[rocky carbon]

theres a reason why so many people always ask about syncing our cds

[elfin vale]

once you get used to a certain playstyle

[rocky carbon]

I think variety is fun

[elfin vale]

again

fun is subjective

so its fair for me to say that, to me, because of the drastic playstyle and rotation change, it is unfun atm

But unfun solely because its completely not comfort

[rocky carbon]

I don't think its that drastic but thats just my opinion

[elfin vale]

sort of a muscle memory

[dry night]

for me it's only unfun on multi target

[elfin vale]

again thats an opinion

[dry night]

ye

[elfin vale]

but not a weird take

[dry night]

ofc

[elfin vale]

ya

but I can tell you

[dry night]

but like

[elfin vale]

99% sure that once I get used to NF and the whole playstyle

def will be fun

[dry night]

Yeah

I think that at the end when we look back it'll be considered fun

esp when you consider like frost dk where it's literally the same exact thing except you use 2h and do a billion dmg

we at least have a little minigame inside of vendetta and minigames usually translate to fun

[severe verge]

i am very biased

but i think frost is fun

i don't think it's very challenging but i think actually moving and positioning your spikes

is more brainpower than people give it credit for and is a neat lil thing to gameplay

it's not gigabrain but idk

[dry night]

I mean doing a billion damage can def be fun

It's never not fun to do damage

[severe verge]

very few things in wow care about you making actual movement on a pretty repeat cadence

[scenic saddle]

It is if it's unholy dk

[severe verge]

but i definitely understand the perception issue

[rocky carbon]

i kinda fw unholy dk

dont tell anyone

[dry night]

I also think people are viewing these tier sets through the same lens as the last time tier existed

When there was also artifact weapons giving additional toys

I didn't play then but it seems to be a common comparison and doesn't seem to fair imo

[steep rampart]

I mean I do think these tier sets hold up pretty well to the previous ones overall?

The only weakness with the current tier transition imo is we're losing the kinda OP shards and have a hell of a lot of damage to make up going between the tiers, so it makes the jump a little less exciting than normal.

[dry night]

ye hard agree

[empty magnet]

sets are fun but all 3 rogue sets should be buffed in my completely 100% not biased opinion

[hidden glacier]

lowkey worried about getting outdpsed by enh shamans though 😂

[rose grail]

he does, but it’s also more than likely irrelevant for rwf unless 2nd lego gets unlocked sooner than week 3 of mythic.

[wraith sphinx]

Numbers wise for sure. Just don't know yet if i think that rotational shifts brought forth through tier sets is gonna be good for the game long term. Having different rotational priorities, even temporarily, from one patch to another seems pretty off putting if it happens every major patch/new tier

[elfin vale]

OH ya

true

[empty magnet]

really i kind of like that

[elfin vale]

I actually didnt consider that

[hidden glacier]

If the tier set allows for more skill expression, I'm happy though

[empty magnet]

having to play the same rotation for an entire xpansion gets kind of boring

[rose grail]

which honestly I am bummed about. let’s see the new rotations in rwf

[empty magnet]

it doesn't have to be major gameplay changes it can be something as simple as going from blindside to ep but

[rose grail]

instead of more of the same without shards

[empty magnet]

just something to keep things fresh is nice

[elfin vale]

HARD agree

[wraith sphinx]

Entirely depends on the way the rotation shifts. Counter-intuitive rotational shifts that go against the core-design of the spec aren't a good thing, imo. Random CP generation, for example, is not a good thing in my personal opinion.

Using damage over time abilities during burst CDs also just feels wrong. Obviously we will get used to it

And a change of pace is always welcome, especially for a spec like Assa that has played the same for 5+ years.

I'm not knocking the 9.2 sets, cause its the first time we have mid-expac changes like this, but I'm just not sure if its something that is sustainable for every single raid-tier.

Maybe I'm just too cynical atm cause I played some Assa in m+ PTR and the gameplay I used to love so much that I became an Assa OTP in Legion/BFA, felt really weird and uncomfortable to play all of a sudden. It's hard to pinpoint what was the cause for it, could be the tiny hitbox of the relics since its suspended in the air, could be the 150ms, could be not having properly statted gear, could be the fact that pressing shiv as an AoE CD feels awkward, or that we didn't run high enough keys for trash to live long enough

[rocky carbon]

Imo having some sets be rotational changes is cool but it could also be nice to just to put power into an underutilized ability or a weaker cd in a way that doesnt alter the rotation but, importantly, makes the class feel different

[wraith sphinx]

That requires every spec to have abilities you can put power behind like that

Assa for example is severely lacking in that regard

Some specs barely fill an entire page on the spellbook with active spec-specific abilities

[rocky carbon]

yeah, thats a different problem of course

[wraith sphinx]

The fact Assa has a Set bonus revolving around an ability that all rogue specs have access to, is already pretty telling

[dry night]

tru

[rocky carbon]

shiv is only a relevant damage button for us though

[dry night]

didn't it used to be a talent tho

toxic blade that is

[wraith sphinx]

Yeah

It replaced Agonizing Poison

Like, I feel weird about the Assa set bonuses. But it's not the set bonus thats the issue, its the fact the spec is 10y old and plays like a 10y old spec in a more modern WoW, that's the problem.The set bonus just seems to highlight those issues for me

[rocky carbon]

hopefully it does the same for the dev team

[steep rampart]

I mean honestly I think playing on PTR always just feels jank because of the lag and bugs, maybe lacking addons, etc.

[rocky carbon]

so they know what to look at in 10.0

[steep rampart]

Pretty much never feels good to me no matter what

[wraith sphinx]

Nah Koji, there's definitely some weirdness to Shiv as an AoE CD

Mostly cause it feels like a lose-lose button to press

[dry night]

Yeah I appreciate that they're wanting to make us feel more like a dot spec but I don't know if the tier itself overcomes the base spec right now

[wraith sphinx]

Drop it after triple garrote+CT to get it on CD, and you have another low-cp GCD while no ruptures are running yet. Or wait to use it until after you built some more bleeds, but lose out on subterfuge garrotes being buffed by it and not being able to use it as often

[dry night]

I think optimally it's triple gar ct shiv right? but i get what you mean for sure

our tier is a bit crazy in multi target

[wraith sphinx]

Assa already has low and inconsistent CP gen issues on aoe unless youre pulling 15+ mobs, so having another rotational button that only generates 1 CP makes it very awkward

[steep rampart]

I mean I still am not totally sure it's ideal to overthink how it gets used for AoE, it's still going to be similar to the "golden rule" about short/mid-duration CDs which is never waste more than half the CD. Something I need to test out a little bit more though.

Probably for most people just whacking it on CD is better than not

[raw thunder]

also probs feels clanky cause nobody has haste xd

the rotation felt giga weird until i slapped on everything with haste tbh

[wraith sphinx]

I'm fairly certain we'll be forced to use it within 3 GCDs of Subterfuge running out

[dry night]

yeah

[wraith sphinx]

Or you lose Subterfuge Garrote value

[sacred sonnet]

Practicing NF rotation on live is interesting

[dry night]

Then press vend and the real fun begins

[wraith sphinx]

If you Add prio-damage into the aoe pull by using Vendetta on a big target, your AoE rotation becomes even more awkward, as you're trying to play catch up with exsanguinated bleeds on your prio target while having inconsistent CP gen

[sacred sonnet]

It's going to be better when it's actually viable but still

[steep rampart]

I'll do some tests later, although my intuition just says use it right after Subterfuge window but before CT

Don't think it'd be worth delaying the bonus on the Subterfuge DoTs just to get CT up

[wraith sphinx]

Will probably need to get the prio-rotation stuff out of the shed once more to see if theres rotational differences between maximizing AoE output and maximizing prio-damage output with/without vendetta

[dry night]

so 3x garrets shiv then ct for a 4cp CT would make sense

[wraith sphinx]

I mean, you get full duration subterfuge either way

If you do g g g ct shiv

Can even get a rupture in before shiv, if you wanted to

[sacred sonnet]

[steep rampart]

Still delaying Shiv could be not worth, still giving up CD time

dunno, will have to test the variants

It's on my to-do list to investigate

[wraith sphinx]

Doubt 1sec will make a big difference there

[empty magnet]

garret 1 garret 2 garret 3 vanish garret 4 garret 5 garret 6 ct shiv

boom 50k

[wraith sphinx]

But losing 1sec of 2piece amplified CT seems like a bigger loss than 1sec CD of shiv

But sims will figure it out, I guess

[dry night]

i mean the important part in my eyes would be just figuring out what to do for the random "here comes a bunch of adds now" phases these raid fights have

[wraith sphinx]

But yeah, regardless of the numbers themselves, it just feels weird to play. But again, that mightve not just been due to the set, but a lot of other issues I've noticed on the PTR, some are PTR-specific, others are encrypted-specific

[dry night]

because in m+ you can generally use rule of thumb to use cds on cd

whereas raid we have a whole syncing logic we want to try and follow

[wraith sphinx]

I mean, m+ throws rule of thumb out of the window when you realize that pushing for the highest overall isn't always the best choice

When you start envenoming a prio target instead of spreading more ruptures on mobs that are gonna die way before the prio-target anyway.

The same will happen to Shiv/Vendetta

[dry night]

ye true

[wraith sphinx]

You're not gonna optimize for AoE overall when you're a prio-slut and just drop Vendettas every pull with Dusk

[dry night]

I mean the good thing for m+ funneling is that with vend alone you have oodles of energy to spam envenom prio target

[wraith sphinx]

But I'm really not looking forward to potentially having to play NF Assa with Dusk in m+ for prio/st, and having 2 additional 1cp builders in your aoe rotation

[dry night]

like you're saying you'd sac overall damage but it gives sin a way to actually funnel on demand every minute-ish

[wraith sphinx]

Envenom prio-target spamming is so underwhelming though

And with 4pc youre not spamming envenoms

Cause you're playing dot-catchup

4pc plays fine in raids with bomb, but it feels awful in m+ with CT in there

[dry night]

yeah it does highlight a lot of hte issues with the base spec you are correct

[wraith sphinx]

Cause youre looking at refreshing CT every 6sec, garrote ever ~8

You're not hitting Envenom for a good 25seconds

[dry night]

Well it seems like we will be playing CT for a lot of fights in raid too possibly so it's the same issue

[lean glen]

if assa m+ is suffering in 9.2 i can easily go sub, be more liked by the masses and feel the same suffering

[dry night]

It's just dot catchup while doing mechanics

[lean glen]

hope assa will be able to bring the prio sub does atleast

and/or better ST

[wraith sphinx]

But yeah, Assa also just felt terrible cause trying to multidot on relics was fucking awful due to their hitbox issues

[steep rampart]

Only really for NF though

For non-NF it's looking best just to slam Shiv

[dry night]

Ye for sure

[wraith sphinx]

Shadowstep>Garrote and be out of meleerange cuase the mobs moved 1y, and then youre losing your third garrote in your opener half the time

Felt absolutely horrible

[steep rampart]

The syncing isn't really hard syncing as such though, it's just a 12s buffer around the CDs coming up

[lean glen]

why would you subterfuge garrote the relics?

arent they low hp

[wraith sphinx]

Yeah, but you wanna prio one down

[lean glen]

thats for after the 3xgar

[wraith sphinx]

And them being so low HP means every prio counts

Cause a monk with sck proc might just kill the wrong one if he crits on the one you dont wanna kill first and noncrits the one you want to kill first

[lean glen]

they should make them like explosives so they dont take aoe dmg!

[wraith sphinx]

We ran non-aoe burst comps and half the time we got the wrong mob

Cause its almost impossible to prio them properly

As a melee anyway

[dry night]

Venth could possibly make a comeback when you throw CT into the mix idk how that'll pan out but def interested to see the cleave sims whenever they're ready

[wraith sphinx]

Venthyr feels shit

Cause the CP gen is so inconsistent

[dry night]

Ofc it does

But obedience is still good

[wraith sphinx]

All the Assa m+ issues culd be fixed

With a solid Deathspike rework

But alas

[dry night]

Or just make fok give cp on hit instead of relying on seal fate

[wraith sphinx]

I mean, I wanted to get rid of the crit-dependancy for assa for a long time

[lean glen]

nah thats sub thing, make it so ruptured targets give cp 100%

[wraith sphinx]

Mutilate/fok should just generate extra CP when hitting a target affected by rupture/garrote

If you want decent crit-scaling without needing sealfate, you can just make it so that critical strikes from bleeds proc damage/generate extra energy through venomous wounds, or smth like that

But Sealfate needs to go, imo

[dry night]

That would be cool

[wraith sphinx]

Make CT baseline, rework the entire AoE-Tier of the talent-tree to alter CT, by giving 1 talent that makes CT a cooldown but hit much harder, one that removes the DoT but increases its instant damage, and one that removes the instant damage but allows the dot to stack up like ignite

I.e. smth like "Consumes all Ruptures and Garrotes in a 15y AoE, then applies a heavy DoT effect that increases in damage based on the amount/power of the consumed DoTs". So you'd have a build-up>release gameplay on AoE

[dry night]

the consuming dots bit would be p cool

Like I want exsang to do it's thing in a 15 yd aoe or whatever but dynamically like current 4p vend does

just something in general to succ dots in aoe

[wraith sphinx]

Eh, bleeding out mobs faster, especially with our limited resource gen, wont be an actual DPS increase overall

[dry night]

or convert dots into instant damage

[wraith sphinx]

Cause you cant get the bleeds up fast enough after

Veinripper works in Torghast, cause you can get the damage high enough that vanishing with MA just onetaps the mobs and you can pull the next pack

[rocky carbon]

I just want to see more unique stuff that works with poisons+bleeds like venomous wounds generally

[wraith sphinx]

In a sustained-damage scenario, all the damage gained instantly/over a short amount of time, will be lost because you have to re-cast it and you cant do so quickly enough

[rocky carbon]

or new abilities that give us more identity of the poison bleed blend

or whatever

[wraith sphinx]

Yeah, Assa just needs like 3 more abilities, change Shiv to just being a utility spell, not a DPS CD etc.

Assa just needs a proper rework

[rocky carbon]

yeah we could get something else that does what shiv does for us already tbh

[wraith sphinx]

10.0

[rocky carbon]

and then have shiv be utility

i think dps shiv is a fine ability as a small cd-like thing but i agree that our utility shouldnt be locked behind damage

[wraith sphinx]

Idk, right now I just want encrypted to not be shit

[rocky carbon]

seems like theyre iterating on it

[wraith sphinx]

And for the relics to not have tiny hitboxes

Does iterating mean theyre removing the entire mechanic and replace it with smth else?

Cause atm I have nothing good to say about the affix

[rocky carbon]

i dont think so

theyre modifying

the buffs and stuff

[stiff fossil]

I know, we can call it toxic blade

[wraith sphinx]

idk

just remove that mechanic entirely

a small st damage amp for just partial damage

id rather just have kingsbane

smth that actually wants us to pool and have 100% envenom uptime temporarily

[runic tree]

agonizing poison

[wraith sphinx]

i always liked agonizing poison, actually

[runic tree]

I didn't like it because of how bad it felt to swap targets

[wraith sphinx]

Mostly cause I liked being able to switch between prio/st and aoe on the fly just by swapping poisons. Felt very iconic

I mean, just make it so that a CD like Shiv/Kingsbane applies max-stacks or smth

If you wanna swap

[sacred sonnet]

Oxi Knife

[wraith sphinx]

cant spell toxic without oxi

[runic tree]

that's fair but since it wasn't the design philosophy in legion it just didn't feel great to play

esp since NH was the big tier for it

[azure pilot]

I had a weird dream one day. They made CT as base skill and made red ink and vial of unseen poisons(torghast anima) as talent tree.

tbh if red ink and vial of unseen poisons get into assa's toolkit, the aoe output would be quite juicy

reworking exsanguate to make it relevant/buffed for causing giga "bleed bursts" in AoE should also be helpful

[sacred sonnet]

Red Ink

[wraith sphinx]

eh, red ink is super boring tho

[sacred sonnet]

But what if
They make it NOT boring?

[proper veldt]

Is it time

#assassination message

[sacred sonnet]

[raw thunder]

listen with how often we all dreamin about wow

we gotta go touch grass

and i mean legit go outside a touch some dirt and shit we wildin

[sacred sonnet]

Why touch grass when you can grab ass?

assassination

[raw thunder]

god fucking shrubberdubber

u got me there

why not touched both at the same time

👀

[sacred sonnet]

Need both hands to double ass, son

[raw thunder]

listen

i can take this conversation in a direction that would put the sin in assassination

u bouta get a dm if u keep this up

[sacred sonnet]

Double ass I nation

[proper veldt]

On god the horniest spec channel in the entire game

[molten ore]

[sacred sonnet]

Have you been to many others?

[wraith sphinx]

youre welcome whispyr

[raw thunder]

listen you havent peeped the DK discord between 3-5 am

[proper veldt]

Yes

[sacred sonnet]

How many are even half as active as this

[raw thunder]

we poppin cmmon

u bored at 5 am? we got u covered :)

[proper veldt]

Hey okay you can’t just take that out of context

[wraith sphinx]

i mean

[sacred sonnet]

I doubt it made sense IN context

[wraith sphinx]

i just did

so clearly i can

[azure pilot]

Hunter discord is just copium and the rest of discords are just furry porn dispensaries

[proper veldt]

[wraith sphinx]

better watch what you say on the internet

[raw thunder]

hunter discord fuckin wild

idk

survival hunter chat is based af

nobody knows wtf they're talking about expect for that hunter lady whos good at the spec

[sacred sonnet]

Wow, that sounds like massive degeneracy
Which ones?

[azure pilot]

by based you mean cringe right?

[raw thunder]

both gamer

both.

[proper veldt]

www.Google.com/seliathanrule34germanASMR

[raw thunder]

my bf and i deadass read their shit for like an hour just laughing

cuz of how awful it is there

survival hunter things

[wraith sphinx]

[raw thunder]

i feel scammed

[azure pilot]

shadow priest for starters

[sacred sonnet]

I just checked and someone was talking about anxiety while someone else talked about a show they watched

[azure pilot]

A gamer girl? A huntard gamer girl? A huntard gamer girl who actually mains the spec?

[sacred sonnet]

Just sounds like us, except less cool

[raw thunder]

yeah that thymaline chick

she fuckin rocks SH

[azure pilot]

Hang around for the weird part

[sacred sonnet]

Had a girl in my Alli guild try to main Surv Hunter for Nathria

[raw thunder]

lmfao

[azure pilot]

Huntard detected, opinion rejected

[rocky carbon]

the return of whispyr's improvement wishlist

[raw thunder]

same but for SoD

[rocky carbon]

[raw thunder]

she did like

4k dps

zzz

[sacred sonnet]

Wrong holiday, we're all about hearts now

[proper veldt]

Wrong channel

[raw thunder]

sorry

[sacred sonnet]

So Subterfuge is getting the play over MA?

[dry night]

yeah maybe

[sacred sonnet]

idk what time it is, care to elaborate?

[dry night]

whispyr's reworked sin ™️ time

[raw thunder]

[dry night]

[proper veldt]

[sacred sonnet]

[deep sleet]

its bizzare that everyone is talking about the same shit we are talking about right now if you go back to this post

i was genuinely confused until i noticed it wasnt january 22 of 2022, it was a full year ago

[dry night]

yeah those were dark days. i was just a baby

[sterile swift]

You still are mr. iceblades wdym

[dry night]

tru

[azure pilot]

bruh i skipped an meeting with my manager to read whispyr's notes fml

@proper veldt

Garrote gives 2 combo points baseline.

In addition to this, what do you think about garrote being able to "self-buff" itself like Devouring Plague for SPs? For single target/prio, you can apply 3x subterfuge garrotes and get a massive bleed with 6 CP on opener/vanish window, which you can exsanguate.

Fan of knives gives 2 combo points baseline, or has an increased crit rate

In addition, what about something like targets already having poisons on them increase FoK crit by a certain percent? Like the first FoK may give you 2 CP, but with the crit buff, the second FoK may give you more CP.

Ambush has a 10 second bleed

Good one but there is a torghast anima power which applies a 5-CP rupture on ambush. So in subterfuge windows you can get 2 free ruptures in a multi-target setting easily.

[proper veldt]

I feel like it would be near impossible to get right without having a built in reduction to stacking dots like that

[proper veldt]

Yeah that’s the same thing on fok basically

Same effect

Poisons have 100% uptime in aoe anyway

[proper veldt]

The ambush thing I thought about but I wanted ambush to stand along and not trigger rupture on its own, since it would then basically fall back into maint you do for rupture

[azure pilot]

The theoritically maximum amount of garrotes you can put on a single target is 8 i think (4 from stealth, vanish, then another 4). SO yeah, 8 garrote exsanguate

[azure pilot]

Yeah i got you

I think the laziest and easiest way to buff assa aoe would be to give garrote double CP (suffocation) and rework exsanguate.

Idk give exsanguate even faster tick rate and give 25 sec CD maybe? The burst potential would be quite juicy i guess

[wraith sphinx]

Dunno why people keep wanting to push burst damage into a damage over time spec

[dry night]

zoomers

[wraith sphinx]

It's a ramp spec, one of the slowest ramps you can have, especially on AoE. Which is fine, it's just that the outcome is severely lacking in DPS. Putting burst CDs or higher initial damage into the toolkit isn't gonna make it flow well though. It's just gonna feel awkward.

They already had a way to make the ramp meaningful in BfA, with Scent of Blood

Took like 20seconds to get everything rolling, but once it did, you had the highest sustained AoE in the game.

[dry night]

For me personally it's that affliction gets fun toys that reward the multi dotting play-style while we get more energy, which would be nice if we had something to funnel it into other than envenom spamming

[wraith sphinx]

Yeah im sorry but neither affliction nor boomkin are multi-dot specs

Neither is SP

Assa is kinda the only one left

Spamming seed certainly isnt multidot

[dry night]

Even worse then I guess

[wraith sphinx]

They kinda killed most multi-dot specs after Legion

As they were dominating on multi-target in Legion

[azure pilot]

Vampiric touch on multi target?

[rocky carbon]

they dont do that

they drop vamp at 5t

they spam searing nightmare

I think we don't want an instant finisher in aoe tbh

[scenic saddle]

Spriest on aoe feels awful

[wraith sphinx]

I thought I wanted one, and then I played SL sub

[rocky carbon]

like every spec should have some kind of aoe button

[azure pilot]

The only burst damage here according to my suggestion was coming out of exsanguate talent rework. Without exsanguate no burst.

[rocky carbon]

ours is CT

and it should stay CT

[dry night]

The point to me is that there's not really much reward for us (as evidently the only remaining multidot spec =p) like we get energy woohoo

[rocky carbon]

we should have cds and other buttons to press in aoe to go along with our baseline finisher

"baseline"

[dry night]

Yeah I like the idea of like 2p shiv amp. The concept of putting up bleeds then amping everything for a short period is the kind of reward that we should get imo

[azure pilot]

CT should remain our AoE spender obviously, no one is denying that, but having a reworked exsanguate for some on-demand burst on CD doesn't hurt anyone

[rocky carbon]

I wouldnt mind that idea, but seli makes a fair point about having trouble getting dots back up afterwards

so we would need something else for aoe

[dry night]

Ye that's why the shiv thing works I think and also why it gets really crazy with vend up because you can't reapply

[wraith sphinx]

That's because mechanics like the damage-proc on VW procs got removed

[scenic saddle]

Idk if having something like spriest's "damnation" but for aoe would be too broken for us

[rocky carbon]

mmm

doubt it

[dry night]

Meh

[scenic saddle]

A talent that applies garrote+rupture instantly on targets, but instead of being like priests make it aoe

[rocky carbon]

the first thing that came to mind that might allow an aoe exsang is some sort of proc that gives us a garrote or rupture to throw out

[dry night]

Sounds like we stole surv hunter shrapnel bomb

[azure pilot]

Fair point

[wraith sphinx]

I'd rather they put more weight behind bleeds so the limited amount we can put up does something meaningful. Having 30 Ruptures and Garrotes ticking will still not deal good damage

[dry night]

I like the concept but doesn't sound like it fits thematically

[wraith sphinx]

The fact we have to make conscious choices about which mobs to bleed and which ones to just have DP/CT up, is meaningful. If you could spread everything to every enemy, you'd lose that moment-to-moment decisionmaking

[dry night]

I wonder if it's possible to rework mastery to something that fixes that

[scenic saddle]

Fair

[rocky carbon]

I want a mastery rework badly

something with bleed and poisons that isnt just a flat buff

[wraith sphinx]

Well, the main issue is that theres distinctions within the spec as to what is a bleed and what isnt. Same for Poisons. So you have different whitelists for passives or procs that refer to the same basic idea of a Bleed or Poison, but then they dont apply in the same way to another one.

Something that increases Bleed and Poison damage affects CT, and then something else doesnt.

CT in general is just a kind of "bad bleed", as it doesnt proc VW (and it shouldn't unless they drastically increase its duration, make it baseline and make it part of our ST rotation, nerfing VW energy procs in the process to account for having a third bleed). It also has an instant damage component, which is weird

[scenic saddle]

I cry every time after learning that ct doesn't give energy

[rocky carbon]

I don't think it should

[scenic saddle]

It's not intuitive imo

[azure pilot]

why would it anyways?

[dry night]

I don't think vw should exist but that's just me

[rocky carbon]

I love vw tbh

I think its our strongest piece of spec identity

[dry night]

It's weird to me and I think it could be done better

[scenic saddle]

Garrote = bleed = energy
Rup = bleed = energy
Kidney bleed = bleed = energy
CT = bleed = ....no energy?

[wraith sphinx]

You could redesign CT as a finisher that consumes bleed to combine the damage of your bleeds into a stronger one, so you'd have a cycle of generating resources, applying bleeds, consuming them for the "big finisher" and then repeating the process. That way you'd have multiple "opener sequences" in the same fight, instead of just one on pull

It all starts with making CT baseline, however

[azure pilot]

In AoE we're overflowing with energy anyways

[dry night]

Yeah I could be down with consuming bleeds for sure

[wraith sphinx]

Whether or not CT generates energy makes no difference

As we're not starving energy on AoE anyway

We overcap pretty hard

[rocky carbon]

I feel better about having to get some ruptures and garrotes up in aoe for energy tbh

[dry night]

Right now with 9.2 my biggest gripe is not being able to dump energy as hard as we should be able to so overcapping is kind of inevitable in cds

[rocky carbon]

than if CT just did it insta

[steep rampart]

I actually think CT not generating energy was originally just an oversight but was kept there because CT looked kinda OP for a while (to the point where it got nerfed way too hard)

[wraith sphinx]

if CT gave energy through VW, absolutely nothing would change

[rocky carbon]

we would just overcap on energy faster

[steep rampart]

CT generating energy would make it better in ST and probably equal or better than PB fairly easily

[azure pilot]

Yeah that's what i mean for assa as a spec identity. You ramp up bleeds on multiple targets, then consuming everything for a big finisher

[steep rampart]

Not that I think that's a bad thing because PB is kinda lame

But just an observation

[scenic saddle]

Yeah I'd rather run CT in single target

[rocky carbon]

I wouldn't

[wraith sphinx]

Yeah I mean, it was pre-patch shenanigans right. CT came back during BfA prepatch, we still had old venomous wounds that procced damage whenever it gave energy, which wouldve been way too powerful for AoE at that point. But then they got rid of the VW damage proc and it was kinda pointless to keep it away still

[scenic saddle]

Even if pb has a nice sound

[rocky carbon]

but I also think PB is lame

[steep rampart]

Yeah they overreacted to how good it was in prepatch

even though a big part of it was borrowed power overlap

[dry night]

If they extended CT duration and made it baseline it wouldn't be as bad in ST

[wraith sphinx]

Can just nerf VW energy gain if you have a third bleed

Same how they nerfed it for Legion release when Garrote became a regular rotational ability

[steep rampart]

And actually lead to it being pretty bad for most of BfA

[wraith sphinx]

Think it was 14 energy back in the day?

[steep rampart]

Due to being overnerfed

[wraith sphinx]

When it was just rupture

[steep rampart]

(LPT, don't nerf things in prepatch when they overlap with borrowed power that is being deleted)

[dry night]

Yeah

[steep rampart]

The main thing I think CT giving energy in AoE would do

Would be to avoid the cases where you sequence your DoTs in a specific way and get accidentally energy starved casting CT then are fucked for like 5s for no reason

Which is honestly a fairly frustrating situation when it happens

[wraith sphinx]

I mean, CT giving energy would make sense if it was a different kidn of ability. I.e. if you go with the idea of it consuming ruptures/garrotes to increase its damage, you would then actually need the energy generated by it until you got your regular bleeds back up again

[dry night]

Well true but then you also have the opposite where it's like oh I have all this energy and absolutely nothing to do with it I guess I'll keep spamming fok and get 2cps

[steep rampart]

I mean if we do everything right nothing should change

Because in theory energy is basically infinite with multiple targets

[scenic saddle]

It's still a bad luck protection on it against shitty foks right

[steep rampart]

But sometimes shit happens at odd times

[dry night]

True I wouldn't complain about it by any means

[steep rampart]

Like it doesn't have to be the same amount of energy as Rupture and Garrote either right?

Like CT could give a smaller amount

[wraith sphinx]

Technically it doesnt, no

[dry night]

I just think it's a bandaid and not addressing other issues more serious for the spec in my opinion

[rocky carbon]

CT can stay as is

doesnt need to give energy

we don't need more energy

[scenic saddle]

I wouldn't mind a fok change

[wraith sphinx]

But imo, a proper rework would make more sense, as its long overdue. Adding a third baseline bleed would just mean you nerf VW from 8 energy to 5 or 6 and keep the same sustain while adding a bit more difficulty to the ST rotation.

[dry night]

Yeah I agree seli that'd be a start

[scenic saddle]

Looking to the side and seeing shuriken storm feels kinda bad

[rocky carbon]

I don't think we should have shuriken storm

[dry night]

Then you can tweak and make envenom more rewarding to spam when you get the chance to

[rocky carbon]

but I like all these ideas of fok having higher crit chance or guaranteed cp on dotted targets

stuff like that is cool

[dry night]

Or insert new ability to spam with extra energy

[scenic saddle]

Cp on dotted targets I like it

Not hitting a good fok feels pretty bad

[wraith sphinx]

As I wrote earlier already, I'd like to see changes along this line:

-Make CT baseline, increase its duration
-Dedicate a talent-line to it, with choices for burst/sustain/spam, meaning one turns it into a CD that consumes bleeds (at which point the extra energy gen is nice to restart the ramp until you use it once more), one removes the intial damage but makes it stack like ignite, and one removes or at least drastically lowers the DoT but increases its hit damage

[dry night]

Even if it was just ruptured targets it'd be way better (as to avoid simplicity of just press CT and spam fok)

[rocky carbon]

yup

I like the multidot rupture thing

don't think we need a full spam finisher

[wraith sphinx]

Crit dependancy for Assa needs to go

But yeah

[dry night]

I like the idea of turning dots into stronger dots.

[wraith sphinx]

It'll most likely just be

[rocky carbon]

I don't mind crit inherently but it needs to be a smaller factor with bad luck protection style stuff

[wraith sphinx]

An ap coefficient change in 10.0

Or smth

mastery should just be venomous wounds damage proc

so investing in mastery means more dmg when your bleeds tick

[rocky carbon]

like at a certain target count we should essentially be able to have shuriken storm, but I don't think we should have the easy of use instant burst like sub

[dry night]

Something that consumes dots and creates a new dot based on how many dots were consumed sounds v interesting. You got me thinking now seli

[wraith sphinx]

Having a "ramping" builder that generates more CP as you have more bleeds active, would be the way to go, but that's hard to do with a very simplistic CP system

[rocky carbon]

could be as simple as fan hitting a ruptured target adds a combo point

[dry night]

Just make fok give CP based on how many targets are ruptured

[wraith sphinx]

I think one of the reasons they reworked WL so heavily in legion was becuase the soulshard system posed similar limitations

So they did slightly different variations of it

With cinders for Destro being something that would suit the "generate more cp per bleed active" very well

[dry night]

Eh cp system is totally fine to me they just need to give more ways to utilize said cps

[scenic saddle]

I'm a zoomer, what is WL

[rocky carbon]

warlock

[scenic saddle]

Oh

[wraith sphinx]

Frankly, CP are a very outdated mechanic. Few games still use them for their "combo" based classes

[dry night]

For example outlaw spamming dispatch with the cto conduit actually feels good. Sub has cdr on dance for spamming finishers. Sin gets ....... More instant poison applications ..

Combo systems are only as good as the combo options available

[rocky carbon]

I like seli's consume dot for an omega dot idea if its a funnel ability

like it turns it all into st

[wraith sphinx]

Fuck funnel

One bleed to rule them all

Press CT, consume all ruptures/garrotes to apply a DoT to all surrounding enemies that ticks for the combined power of all consumed dots

Which is obviously offset by losing the damage on those targets you had those bleeds up

[dry night]

Then reapply garretts and ruptures

?

[wraith sphinx]

But you can rebleed specific ones for priodamage

[dry night]

Could be cool.

[wraith sphinx]

Or dont have a consumption, but just a damage increase on targets afflicted by rupture/garrote, or give it a damage amp based on how many bleeds were up when you cast it

Theres a variety of things you could do, that makes CT an ability that is somewhat based on the other bleeds you have

[dry night]

I think the damage amp could easily be a new mastery tbh

Something to do with # of bleeds up

[wraith sphinx]

Personally I'd just like to be able to spam CT and have it stack its damage like Doomblade, so you would have to choose between rupturing more targets for specific target damage, or keep "spamming" CT for AoE. Obviously you cant spam it because you would have energy sustain issues if you dont throw out at least a few ruptures

[dry night]

Like your poison damage is increased by x % for each of your bleeds

[rocky carbon]

I honestly like it as a dot