isn't 13k sub in like prog gear
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
nova nexus
no clue
nova nexus
i can’t find shit in their discord
nova nexus
and there’s no link to a sim
winged fiber
lol
nova nexus
where you walk in here and everything is laid out.
wind furnace
my sims are literally:
"if you get the 2nd legendary and the tier pieces, this is how you peform"
and this can be diffrent for every spec
who does 9.2 sims
nova nexus
ofc but I can’t find any of that
wind furnace
possibly better to ask in their discord
wind furnace
i don't know who tweeted, but if it was babs i assume there is a reason for it
but if it was babs i would be surprised why there is no mentioning of context
spiral glade
https://twitter.com/JFunkGaming/status/1493357432537595911?t=qMJ2DzHTfkAHvNlf3v_cuQ&s=19 This was the tweet right? I was curious why enh was so much higher than the previous sims I had seen, theyre using 278/ 285 gear in that one https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fcgRZJBUFS5oQCQGBxMKEK/simc
nova nexus
yeah ofc. info from a number of the specs is just not blatantly obvious, like in the pins
yeah idc about shaman
i want to see the WW load out
spiral glade
Ya I was just curious about the difference cause the last sims I saw put them at ~13k, didnt realize those sims were all at 253 ilvl
vague latch
nova nexus
again… don’t care about enhance st dmg. I care about mongoloid AOE WW spec doing more ST dmg than sub or assa.
so if you have those sims I’d love to see it
nocturne marten
so ridiculous
lol
still no utility for raid and other classes perform better
y i know we're not in 9.2 yet but is missing a week and i did not see rework, buff nerf ecc
weird
this is going to be as 9.0 for rogues imho
mossy carbon
Ya I was just curious about the difference cause the last sims I saw put them at...
I'm quite surprised ww is going to 13k, don't they only sim for like 11k max currently? Their tier set and second leggo would have to be insane to get there
spiral glade
I mean that was sorta my other point
if the enh sims were using 283 ilvl sims
the ww ones might be too
especially given the last sims of theirs I saw were like you said ~11k
mossy carbon
the ww ones might be too
Yeah I'm sure that's it, ww will lose at least 1k (probably more) from shards, it's not getting 4k from tier + leggo
spiral glade
Not saying its guaranteed to be that, cause the monk discord doesnt pin sims but its my guess
tight sapphire
without knowing what the sim is about i guaranty that ww without major st buffs isnt suddenly outperforming sub in patchwork
mossy carbon
this is going to be as 9.0 for rogues imho
Rogues will likely still do top tier st damage, what's wrong with enh being stronger in single target for one tier, that spec has been ultra cursed for years and would be dead and buried without wft.
Don't think we're in a position for doom and gloom currently, tuning will of course happen.
nocturne marten
im hoping so
y i know the enha situation
and for them is absolutly fine a tuning like that
tight sapphire
enhancer is something different 
mellow urchin
https://twitter.com/JFunkGaming/status/1493357432537595911?t=qMJ2DzHTfkAHvNlf3v_...
300 more dps than sub (255 avg) in full mythic gear
yikers
thats really bad
wind furnace
if somone does make a claim, he should at least put information in to have a fair comparison
this is also why balance druid ended up as a distrust class
their TC did claim "we are so bad, buff", and there was somehow no questioning this and no evidence supporting the claim
(and i am not saying that the one who did the ww post is any wrong, he probably didn't do this on purpose)
(i know ww has a strong community that is more tc-heavy)
also to be fair, most of the times those comparisons are made by comparing pinned information with context out of that context
nova nexus
just like in math class, show your work. I just want to see the work.
hushed comet
Rogues will likely still do top tier st damage, what's wrong with enh being stro...
Because you just wouldn’t bring any other non essential melee if enhance stays that busted lmao
nova nexus
what people bring to prog is often quite different than what sims best in “end of tier” gear
mossy carbon
Because you just wouldn’t bring any other non essential melee if enhance stays t...
It's getting like 2k from 2nd leggo so the 18k number is irrelevant for RWF, it's in absolute full bis gear so it's maybe like 1k ahead of something like rogue with 4p + 1L? Really hard to say without proper comparisons.
nova nexus
rogue still offers some of the tankiest dps, mechanic cheese, and versatility without talent swapping.
hushed comet
what people bring to prog is often quite different than what sims best in “end o...
It sims best in prog gear too 
nova nexus
reroll then?
hushed comet
Why don’t you?
mossy carbon
It sims best in prog gear too <:kekw:610125925413289985>
It's a big simtrap too, like fury last tier. My understanding is that that build requires nearly 100% uptime and gets fucked super hard anytime you don't have it.
nova nexus
well you’re the one stating not taking anything else if enhance is that strong
hushed comet
Yeah I mean that’s a pretty simple concept
At higher levels if all your players are the same skill wise you wouldn’t bring a rogue over Enhance with current tuning
pulsar axle
unless the boss mechanism requires
hushed comet
It's a big simtrap too, like fury last tier. My understanding is that that build...
They don’t post actual sims so I haven’t looked heavily into it
nova nexus
enhance 100% posts sims
hushed comet
go ask any of the top 10 guilds how many enhance shamans they’re stacking
They’ve all got 4-5
mossy carbon
They don’t post actual sims so I haven’t looked heavily into it
Nah you can find the full enhance sims on earthshrine, I looked through them
nova nexus
you’re blind
mossy carbon
hushed comet
That’s literally just numbers
hushed comet
Unless those sims are linked to the numbers and I can’t get to them in phone?
nova nexus
you can
hushed comet
I looked at it yesterday
mossy carbon
you click on the numbers and it takes you to google sheet
you can click the links in the sheet for the sims
nova nexus
done with this merry go round. lol
pulsar axle
i think we come to a point where sims are suddenly no longer significant
subtle shale
I mean those enhance sims are done with basically full bis gear
hushed comet
The numbers don’t do shit for me
subtle shale
Conduits aswell iirc
hushed comet
done with this merry go round. lol
What’s your WR/prog
mossy carbon
I'll dm them to you, this is getting quite off topic
pulsar axle
after the last round of tuning, i think blz will leave all numbers' problem to H-week.
steel meadow
No one would ever stack enhance, take 1 yes but stack hell naw
nova nexus
lol you want to flex on my world rank of 1500 while I’m legally blind to make you think your takes aren’t shit? be my guest.
lament ore
also missing that enha gets absolutely ass fucked by losing uptime
nova nexus
and is a glass cannon
hushed comet
They were stacked in the past once already iirc
So idk what you’re on about with that
steel meadow
I dont remember it for past 4 addons
nova nexus
it hasn’t
not like locks, mages or rogues have been
and rogues were a specific fight
hushed comet
Was a good ways back I think
nova nexus
let us know when you find it
delicate osprey
enha was op in draenor for mar gok and also some other bosses due to unbalanced aoe any other boss i dont remember it being stacked
dont worry old man dino has your answers XD
limpid lance
enha was op in draenor for mar gok and also some other bosses due to unbalanced ...
Fat true. It was op for that one boss, but even then you wouldnt bring more than one.
ocean stratus
Then maybe it was ele
Ele was stacked for uunat
nova nexus
Fat true. It was op for that one boss, but even then you wouldnt bring more than...
swapping back to enhance in 9.2 to stack?
or is your WR too low? 
wind furnace
still playing shaman, or back to rogue?
limpid lance
They knew I was coming, so clearly they got the second wft to stack on the subrogue amirite
nova nexus
yep
limpid lance
nova nexus
ring better than nothing I guess.
spiral glade
I’m getting a dagger in the vault tomorrow 
nova nexus
It's all in the vault
were you reclearing or extending?
delicate osprey
we can make sylv groups next tier with blackjack and hookers
i at least plan to keep doing but my guild is noodle and wants to ignore her until progress is over
limpid lance
Doing tarra kt sylv or at least that's what we did in a weekly basis
nova nexus
ah. we were just slamming our head against sylv
i’m hoping we do 3 or 6 bosses this week
delicate osprey
it took us 3 weeks to begin 1 day clearing after killing sylv
warm olive
i at least plan to keep doing but my guild is noodle and wants to ignore her unt...
i thought you had daggers ?
delicate osprey
yea i have daggers but you never know if you can drop ring or something with tertiary
just i hope it is not the chest or belt kekw
warm olive
right
abstract sundial
im looking forward to trying to convince my guild to do t/kt/sylv every week for me
workingon the PPT rn
wind furnace
not sure what the question is
enh seems like the highest simming spec in the game, so everyone looks weaker compared to it
buoyant gyro
How are we looking compared to Enh on single target
Nothing compares to Enhance on ST right now until some tuning happens
Not really worth looking at
thin arrow
Iam the only Rogue on the Team and Gm is giving me the old reroll something usefull :/
wind furnace
asking someone to reroll this close to the patch seems weird
as koji mentioned, tuning will happen and nobody rly knows how specs end up
wind furnace
patchwerk is def. not the only data point to look at but most melee specs can't deal well with downtime
abstract sundial
Iam the only Rogue on the Team and Gm is giving me the old reroll something usef...
Are you guys rwf?
wind furnace
perception and a lot of opinions
rogue is objectively seen less useful than other specs that provide raid buffs, raid utility, burst aoe or similar perks while offering no noticable trade off in damage
also there are only few melee raid spots, thus makes rogue more often a optional choice
the 2 main competing guilds (echo/limit) also seem to not prioritize rogue as a choice, and this builds a certain perception
jovial sleet
where im coming from rogue seems like a safe pick, a lot of damage, good enough dmg profiles, doesnt die a lot
wind furnace
the problem is that neither of this perks was relevant in recent raid design
damage checks where not tight enough to take rogue over other classes and rogue did not outperform to the degree that would make the trade off worth
wind furnace
average raider is rly a big range of players
the average might not even see heroic if we go from all players
jovial sleet
I mean like 500-1000 mythic guild
wind furnace
if we talk about performance, every guild has ranges of performance
you will take a good player on a rogue over a weaker one on the op class
but also the usual guild is very susceptible to spec/class thinking
e.g. if limit max is telling people that class X is rly good and class Y is not that great. People will keep this opinion
the point that is often missed is that a lot of times this opinion piece given does not hold up outside of the world first race
jovial sleet
true
wind furnace
a healer class that is needed to survive a certain mechanic during wfr progression might not be the best choice for a group with a far higher power level that does survive the mechanic easy
nova nexus
@wind furnace i asked wordup about the sims with enhance and he WW malding thinks it’s some back channel sim. it’s in offtopic if you want to look at the convo
tldr enhance BiS setup requires a lot of uptime to pull off. WW who knows wtf they are doing with sims.
i support our transparent sim apl brethren in being “OP”
wind furnace
i mean subtlety realistically also needs a lot of uptime
the entire gameplay loop depends on systems that feed into it.
Sht procs, finisher for shd cdr, finisher for 4p procs, ...
nova nexus
all melee needs it, just to what extreme
venthyr fury 9.1 was absolute shiet with downtime
but looks great in sims
wind furnace
isn't fury gcd caped?
nova nexus
at some point probably. the buff uptime was the issue
sub wants their always purple game play, get wrecked when you have downtime and used 2 steps and a vanish strike
wind furnace
to be fair downtimes on encounters are usually not long
or very long, to the point that it won't matter
wind furnace
so if a spec "gets fucked by downtime" it usually means you have a mechanic you need to be on the boss every few seconds
and that mechanic needs to also possibly have a ramp so that it can't be refreshed fast
nova nexus
from what wordup said there are points they need to be standing still. maybe @limpid lance can enlighten us.
wind furnace
i rly haven't followed enh a lot, so i can't rly say how critical uptime is
nova nexus
same
wind furnace
as like mentioned earlier, subtlety is in the same boat due to its positive feedback loop too but people wouldn't say you need 100% uptime
nova nexus
i just know wordup is usually transparent with the info
and sub has a lot more get back on the boss tools
wind furnace
but at the same time does not have a mechanic that would set it significant behind if downtime happens like in the example i gave above
nova nexus
yea
wind furnace
ofc that also plays into it, but i don't think it is that big in reality
outlaw/sin don't lose out in damage to subtlety due to having less mobility in their kit
and it does not seem like rogue is losing to ww/dh for them having even more mobility
pale jetty
I think a big part for sub is when that downtime is happening
If you're about to suffer downtime as your cds are coming up, you lose a lot more than just not being able to hit boss
nova nexus
i always think of breath of sindi for frost dk. when that cast does more damage based on almost excessive resource availability, you ultimately get screwed if you cast it and are taken off the boss after 15 seconds.
it was a better spell when you didn’t need 30+ seconds of uptime
pale jetty
Yeah but that's something you can hold, the selffed loop of dance and how you want to line it up is what makes sub so "gross" with downtime
But I get it
Similar idea
Loses a lot more
nova nexus
how long can you really hold a 2 min cd in mythic encounters?
wind furnace
gloom has a strong point, having a very long cooldown usually allows you to wait for mechanics
nova nexus
when it has to have 30-40 seconds of uptime
wind furnace
shorter cooldowns punish you for holding
pale jetty
I mean it depends scath
warm olive
yeah agreed
pale jetty
Chances are if you get an extra cast, you won't be able to utilize the uptime on the big cd anyways
So you might as well make each usage the best it can possibly be
Guard is like a 3:30-4 min fight
nova nexus
subs biggest oof would be what, capping dance?
pale jetty
You'll likely only get two meaningful uses
wind furnace
also tuning might be around not getting full uptime tbh
pale jetty
Holding symbols
Is the biggest oof
Everything revolved around lining up with symbols
wind furnace
using symbols, blades, dance just as you need to run out would be a big issue for sub
pale jetty
Desync it, and you're screwed
nova nexus
but you should be able to hit symbols within a few seconds based on the above
pale jetty
Symbols has a much smaller window
wind furnace
as you won't do damage
pale jetty
Unless you're venth
In which case your biggest oof is flag
Flag needs full uptime and two dances
limpid lance
from what wordup said there are points they need to be standing still. maybe <@!...
Your leggo reduces doggy cd, which the entire spec now builds around. If you cant hit boss, your leggo does nothing, and it snowballs into not getting as many dogs as you want.
Thats the short version of it.
nova nexus
and i’m not disagreeing with you, it’s one of the major reasons I hate what the fucking spec has turned into
nova nexus
Thats the short version of it.
thank you
pale jetty
Eh, it's just become a planning spec
nova nexus
what the doggy cd?
nova nexus
time
limpid lance
Uhuh
pale jetty
Oh
nova nexus
what’s the basic cd of wolves 3 mins 2 mins 5?
pale jetty
2 mins I'm p sure
limpid lance
I dont remember, but "enh is just a planning spec now" is some low effort meme take
pale jetty
I was talking about sub
nova nexus
oh i thought you were talking enhance
limpid lance
Same kek
pale jetty
Sub is a planning spec
wind furnace
depends on the covenant
wind furnace
kyrian is def. going towards more agressive cd usage
pale jetty
You don't "just fire off" stuff on venth
Unless you're like in mass aoe
Kyr is a bit more braindead gameplay because of the higher dance uptime and the fact that ER is infinitely easier to play
You just hit it out of dance and then finish on the cps
There's no rush
nova nexus
unless a fight calls for door dash i struggle to see a point to playing venthyr
wind furnace
btw. i think blizz could have designed er in a way that would be less punishing and more interesting
without changing the core idea
nova nexus
last I saw, PV funnel on kyrian was better. maybe not?
pale jetty
Soulrender, painsmith, fate, KT, Nine are all fights that favour venth (maybe KT can favour kyr depending on what you need)
Funnel will never be better on kyr
wind furnace
by instead of having multiple anima charged combo points, just making all light up with the legendary and give charges to consume
pale jetty
Venth offers way more damage into prio targets
pale jetty
Yeah and lashing is no joke
wind furnace
pv is even on par with pe in funnel
only thing that changed is that i made a apl change to increase pv efficiency for priority_rotation
nova nexus
i must be behind. I swore you had worked out a kyrian funnel. maybe before nerf.
pale jetty
Kyrian doesn't really offer anything in funnel though
You're capping cp in funnel
Meaning you don't hit anima cps
nova nexus
yeah it was just the pumping pv into the prio
wind furnace
its not a perfect estimate, but let me quick run a sim
6 targets 2 min sim, pe instead of pv, finality 2nd legendary
nova nexus
i’ll just chock it up to a brain fat. too many sims running around in my noggin lol
wind furnace
if i made no mistake, assassination for comparison:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dTPSx1jMoz7CzGuLrj6xpx/simc
kyrian actually seems for subtlety as one of the weaker priority choices
lapis wasp
the sims you're running - what avg ilevel are those?
for example I saw some enhance sims using end-game gear from next tier with double leggo+tier and they were around 18kish
wind furnace
somewhere around 252
wind furnace
its literally just "what if you swapped in tier sets and add a 2nd legendary power"
lapis wasp
makes sense - thanks!
wind furnace
well depends on what sim, i have some with only 1 legendary power too
lapis wasp
and the ones comparing mythic next tier wep to sylv daggers is still 252 gearish just with the one exception being the daggers in question
nova nexus
i’m waiting for our fuu google sheets
wind furnace
discord went to shit, back
unsure if there is something to do with a google sheet
the pins have most information already you would want to find quickly
or do you mean a comparison of dagger values, it might be interesting to observe that
jovial sleet
I have a question, 285 mh and sylvanas hc offhand vs 2x 285 since mythic sylvanas is unobtainable for me
wind furnace
whats the question
jovial sleet
how would hc sylv dagger fare in here
jovial sleet
thanks
nova nexus
@wind furnace i just like spreadsheets. 
wind furnace
might be worth to do something sooner or later in that direction
austere plaza
will the tier set have you in dance more offten?
wind furnace
yes
topaz radish
Which legendaries in which slots are likely to be meta for sub in st and mythic plus and is it worth waiting to make them now?
acoustic cobalt
Pins and consensus is no, you should wait
topaz radish
thanks sorry i missed that
wind furnace
for 2nd legendary, just make your own choice
there is no "this is the best thing to do" but the secure choice is to craft on non tier slots
topaz radish
makes sense
hoary zephyr
@wind furnace has anything changed in the past week or so?
besides pins
last thing I know what priority dmg increased w/ backstabs because of PV
lapis wasp
baesd on the sims im seeing, it is worth to level kyrian now?
wind furnace
yes it is
meager grove
so kyrian for skolex, how about the majority of the other bosses where there's some element of AOE or multi-target etc.
?
feral schooner
For progression play kyrian it's way more relaxing and forgiving.
But play whatever you most enjoy is not that much of a difference
pulsar axle
is shadowdust fixed in PTR?
potent pawn
someone said it was fixed on PTR
potent pawn
i swear i read it somewhere but can't find it
¯_(ツ)_/¯
guess it's back to being a degenerate
buoyant gyro
someone said it was fixed on PTR
Which aspect of it?
potent pawn
Which aspect of it?
dunno they just said it was 'fixed'
buoyant gyro
Not really sure what they would fix about it other than the talent swapping part. CDR part not really sure what they can do about it.
mossy carbon
Stats on tier have been updated now
hushed comet
all i see is trash trash garbage trash and 1 good piece at the end there
buoyant gyro
It's definitely much better
buoyant gyro
I mean it's minor haste on 2 items, can't really expect much better 😛
potent pawn
feels nice for m+ as well
i dont have the sylv chest yet and i have a bunch of dom socket haste gear
civic terrace
We're already running into crit diminishing returns in sod gear anyway
potent pawn
whats crit DR?
thick wren
Ehh assuming we are picking legendary hands stats are pretty dope
civic terrace
Ye i think this is fine
Probably craft leg on hands or chest
For late game anyway
thick wren
I don’t see profit from leg chest. Makes you pick 278 hands with low agi and sub par secondary stats
civic terrace
Oh ye I forgot they made later bosses drop better ilvl tier
wind furnace
Which aspect of it?
it wasn't fixed some days ago, so would have needed a hotfix to be fixed. But we have just like with any of the cheeses a lot of ppl who just come in and ask if its fixed. It is usually a user error
mellow urchin
Stats on tier have been updated now
Anything else would be shocking, so thats nice. Did they adjust trinket values too?
wind furnace
trinket tuning is comming soon™️
mellow urchin
They said that?
wind furnace
yes
mellow urchin
Noice
wind furnace
only problem is we potentially don't know how strong the trinkets rly are before raid
so, will be wild this tier
mellow urchin
Should start with putting mainstat on the jailer trinket
rare ether
👁
wind furnace
👀
mossy carbon
Anything else would be shocking, so thats nice. Did they adjust trinket values t...
Nope, we still getting 1k from pantheon trinket poggies
wind furnace
one of the simc devs reverse engineered one of the "what does this do" trinkets, so potentially have a estimate for it soon
sleek mortar
I see that there's single legendary sims in pins but is there double leggo sims?
wind furnace
under legendary combination
just keep in mind that the sims are with current gear and only have tier set + legendary applied to them
dire perch
scarizard came to nerf rogue 
wind furnace
tbh balancing is kind of weird atm
mellow urchin
only problem is we potentially don't know how strong the trinkets rly are before...
I dont mind this, some sense of mystery to trinkets is cool
wind furnace
i don't mind it too, its just inconvenient because people are eager to know "what is the best one"
mellow urchin
Yea its good to know for trading purposes
wind furnace
but talking about balance, i am rly unsure how rogue ranks up atm.
looking at tier profiles something like enh is at 18k? others seem fairly low and rogue is somewhere in the middle?
wind furnace
thats my point, its rly hard to know if rogue is over/undertuned/fair tuned
wind furnace
also full tier profiles are less relevant
mellow urchin
I mean most of these sims are done with stuff you wont have for weeks
wind furnace
i mean, if nothing changes we will see subtlety as the main spec early and other 2 catch up later on
unsure about outlaw, but it does not seem extremely bad
mellow urchin
Most will come down to boss design
As usual tbh
Assa was played more than sub in 9.0 (in the top top guilds), despite sub simming higher
wind furnace
it wasn't
mellow urchin
Echo used sub on 2-3 fights right
Pieces on a few. But in the end they either didnt play rogue or played assa for sylvanas
wind furnace
population in 9.0 was:
early:
sub > outlaw > sin
when people realized sub wasn't op:
outlaw > sub > sin
when assassinaiton got buffed multiple times:
sin > sub ~= outlaw
wind furnace
oh
in terms of population assassination had the most players in early mythic
but also 90% of that was on the first fights, the rest was almost exclusively sub
mellow urchin
Guess it depends on what time span you use.
wind furnace
assassination rly came online with the frost buffs/bugfixes
because frost set is fucking op, kind of weird that this wasn't changed in design tbh
mellow urchin
But with very early kills, assa was played over sub on sylvanas. And that was mostly a st fight
wind furnace
was that before or after the frost set changes
wind furnace
seems like a questionable choice then
mellow urchin
Well
Thats just what it often comes down to
Being top in simc doesnt mean much if the fight is shit for your toolkit
wind furnace
but sylvanas was not shit for subtlety, unless i miss something critical
wind furnace
the tier set will make it also more punishing i guess
mellow urchin
For sylvanas in particular, there were longer periods of downtime that these rogues probably identified as bad for sub
Or they just hate the spec and just wanted to play assa no matter what
wind furnace
but yes, personal preference also plays into it. And perception, given that assassination was always the top pick for xpacs now
early difference in output should still objectively seen point towards subtlety
(unless on fights that benefit the assassination kit a lot more like cleave/spread cleave)
mellow urchin
Idk, in a perfectly average simc setting, then yes sub is looking strong. But for top tier wr chasers, the rng can certainly be offputting. It wont matter for most ppl but when ur fighting a boss where the tuning is very tight, having 1 guy do big swings of different dps can really fuck with your planning
wind furnace
i would agree if the specs would be closer, but having higher baseline diffrences do make a good case for subtlety
mellow urchin
And you have this very distinct difference between assa and sub, where one is simply almost exempt from any rng and the other almost doubles the other one
wind furnace
thats the point still
even with rng impact, being noticeable enough ahead makes you still the preferred choice
mellow urchin
And in relative terms, i think assa is one of the stronger st specs anyway
But sub might be good for anduin, so might see some play there
wind furnace
idk
i think you overestimate the likelyhood for people to lose out on 8-10% dps due to having rng in their rotation
mellow urchin
Its only 8-10% if you have average rng on both set bonuses
wind furnace
well ofc
wind furnace
i get your argument, i still think the impact is overstated as we kind of talk about rly bad or worse cases
mellow urchin
Yea the proc rate is high enough to give a decent average. But its still damage you cant count on
wind furnace
just as a experiment, throw your character in a ptr=1 sim with sin/sub gear and compare it
you will see that sub is quite noticable ahead
mellow urchin
Ofc
wind furnace
and the tier set just builds on top of the baseline, so you will even with bad rng have a baseline that is rly good
looking at the comparison with mythic gear, subtlety looks way less appealing
mellow urchin
Sure, but as seen in ptr testing, sub did not feel very strong compared to other specs
wind furnace
thats 100 dps ahead with rng impact, seems even weak compared to assassinaiton tbh
mellow urchin
The labels are confusing
That cant be 0p right
And its not venthyr rogue?
Venthyr sub
wind furnace
whispyr posted it in #916546791472783371 earlier, i just made a screen capture
mellow urchin
Ye it makes sense
wind furnace
wait, copy/paste mistake
mellow urchin
The dagger influence gets drastically reduced in better gear
wind furnace
subtlety:
mellow urchin
Still the same picture
wind furnace
assassination
my bad, so fixed
subtlety still seems like its peforming decent with bad rng
wind furnace
The dagger influence gets drastically reduced in better gear
i think 2nd legendary plays a big role too
akaaris is already valued a lot more than initially due to PV
and its still weaker than what a lot of other classes/specs get
mellow urchin
Yea its gonna be interesting to see how it develops over time. You wont have tier sets for a while, so its hard to sim differences for prog scenarios
wind furnace
2p might be optainable fairly quick
mellow urchin
Ye
wind furnace
4p i am not sure, but i might underestimate loot trading
also 8 or 9 vault slots for tier
mellow urchin
But on avg ive seen week 4-5 to be the timing for most ppl doing full clears of both heroic and normal since week 1
Without splits
wind furnace
your guild isn't doing splits?
mellow urchin
No
wind furnace
ah fair
mellow urchin
Ofc not, thats some degen shit
Only ppl that try to win world first should bother with splits imo
wind furnace
bucket chars
winged fiber
splits kinda get hurt this tier by
needing the tier piece to trade it
instead of just an equivalent ilvl piece already
but i feel you @mellow urchin with sin topping out at like basically the same dps as sub
-200ish at most
i doubt anyone will play sub on farm
same dps way more rng
unless they actually enjoy the spec
mellow urchin
I dont think ppl in lower ranked guilds should bother with splits and the top top guilds will have no issues getting tier sets
winged fiber
or there's a funnel design that plays to its strengths like you said earlier like anduin
yea
i mean ideally
the way you do splits for the current tier drop system
is you just make like 5 rogues
and play whoever gets loot lol
mellow urchin
Well they are going to use the community a lot
winged fiber
the community isn't worth it though
cuz you need the tier piece to be able to trade it
so you'd need someone with that specific heroic piece to be able to trade it in normal
mellow urchin
Wdym, just bring in a bunch of juicers that have the set piece that drops for a specific boss and stack it
winged fiber
oh i guess that's true
you can just go
hey anyone who has this leather set piece
we pay 10m for you to come to this raid
xD
mellow urchin
No you can have normal set piece to trade normal set right?
winged fiber
yea
mellow urchin
Ye so its fine
winged fiber
as long as you have a specific tier piece you can trade it
on that difficulty or lower
so u right
they'll prob buy a bunch of normal players
mellow urchin
I dont think they will have issues finding fanboys to give them loot
mellow urchin
Ye
winged fiber
you can do heroic > trade normal depending on drops first week
will be interesting to see what they decide to finalize as their strats
mellow urchin
You cant have 4p until 2nd week anyway
mellow urchin
Well Max said they will definitely have 4p at least
wind furnace
No you can have normal set piece to trade normal set right?
you can trade it if you got a normal or heroic one before
mellow urchin
For mythic prog
winged fiber
i'm sure rwf guilds will
mellow urchin
Cus he was talking about how it might be hard to tune the raid with set pieces equipped when most guilds wont have them
mellow urchin
4-5 weeks on avg in a guild with 24 players
wind furnace
Cus he was talking about how it might be hard to tune the raid with set pieces e...
thats my concern too
winged fiber
nah
mellow urchin
Clearing normal and heroic every week
winged fiber
i'd say like 5-8
mellow urchin
Its simple math really
wind furnace
shouldn't be hard to run a simulation on it or calculate probabilities
winged fiber
we had someone do that
i think they said after 3ish weeks
you have like 6 sets
depending on rng
mellow urchin
Well yea you can get super unlucky and not have it until week 6-7 but thats not the avg
Week 8 everyone will have it anyway
winged fiber
depends on how your raid comp is too class stack wise
mellow urchin
Cus of the system
mellow urchin
You need 96 drops
winged fiber
and then if you really unluck and people can't trade it to you for w/e reason
you'd be fine by week 8 anyways
mellow urchin
But you can also get it in vault
winged fiber
vault % was super fuckin low tho
wind furnace
you have like 6 sets
considering 8/9 chest options or just regular 2-3 ones a lot of ppl will do?
winged fiber
i think it's considering all
mossy carbon
vault % was super fuckin low tho
Isn't it quite high from pvp?
wind furnace
its fairly low for m+ given the big loot pool
winged fiber
prob higher for pvp
mellow urchin
If its just another piece it should be quite high cus of the lack of items in the pool
Pvp boxes bis for gearing again
mossy carbon
love playing a minigame for casuals to get stuff for raid
winged fiber
i'll prob just do 2's again
mellow urchin
Slow and painful
mellow urchin
Ye but at least you have to do like 3-4
winged fiber
forming groups is pain tho
mellow urchin
Not 50
mossy carbon
This is from that wowhead article a couple of weeks ago
winged fiber
le sigh
wind furnace
if you get a tier set, its not guaranteed to be on a slot you don't have
winged fiber
it's so damn ironic too
pvp players bitched and moaned for years about not wanting to pve to get gear aquisition
and then 2/3 tiers of the xpac where they say DW FAM WE HEAR YOU WE WON'T DO U DIRTY
they just flip the script and make pvp the best way to acquire gear for raiders
mossy carbon
if you get a tier set, its not guaranteed to be on a slot you don't have
Yeah ofc, but at least first week that's a really low chance to happen considering you can also get tier slots from bosses not available yet
mellow urchin
Imagine getting 3 tier items week W
wind furnace
but then more pieces you have, then less likely it is to get one you need in the chest
mellow urchin
1
winged fiber
dude you'd be putting up rank 1's
for the rest of the tier
literally unstoppable rng god
xD
mossy carbon
but then more pieces you have, then less likely it is to get one you need in the...
That's a "suffering from success" moment
wind furnace
probably yes
wind furnace
early log ranking will depend a lot on old tier success and loot luck
winged fiber
they always do
wind furnace
having double sylvanas -> rly good
winged fiber
early logs are how good is your guild at clearing bosses fast and how good is your loot rng
wind furnace
getitng tier set early -> hard to compete
mellow urchin
There is a ton of ppl with daggers
mellow urchin
Unlucky
wind furnace
assassination will replace daggies early
mellow urchin
You have 1 at least?
winged fiber
yea
mellow urchin
Mythic
winged fiber
i'm not too worried since i got 1 mythic
mellow urchin
Ye thats pretty much all you need
winged fiber
makes me weaker for raid early but
i'll be fine as soon as i get a dagger
i mean
with how little we have to do dailies
like basically 0 grinding
which is fucking amazing
thank you blizzard
i might as well just pvp to 2100 and get a free dagger
wind furnace
or spend your valor points 😛
wind furnace
i am also unsure if you rly want to spend your valor on that
given that you likely want trinkets from dungeons
phial/soleahs potentially
delicate osprey
i did like sack shame it got double nerfed
wind furnace
sack def. does not look that good at least for subtlety
unsure about assassinaiton as they seem to not hate mastery
but phial/soleahs are potentially atm the best trinkets before raid trinkets get into the pool
winged fiber
that's good
i just hate how normal pugs pull plaguefall
3 mobs > 4 mobs > 3 mobs > 4 mobs > 1 mob > 1 mob
actual aids for sub
though i expect people not to know what to do in tazavesh
so prob lots of wiping
shut valve
1 mob pulls are fine for sub, it's the 2-4 that feel awful
neat dagger
wind furnace
tbh tier set makes low target not terrible
its still bad compared to sin but slightly better
shut valve
it's still awful compared to most other aoe classes 😄
wind furnace
not sure i would put 2/3 target cleave in the "aoe" category
narrow rapids
is it worth to craft akaari lego already or just w8 till patch hits next week?
wind furnace
if you craft it now, you are limited to the legendary slot choice that is not a tier set
if you craft it later you can potentially include your tier set drops in the slot
narrow rapids
isnt akaari being crafted on neck? cause ima bit scared that prices of 262 legos go up with patch hitting next week
and im broke af either way xD
wind furnace
akaari is crafted on neck to be not on a tier slot
is neck the best possible slot?
probably not
head has the highest stat budget, and the tier hand slot has bad stats
that will likely make one of them the best slot
(in the long run)
wind furnace
also keep in mind that the best slot for bis gear might differ from your best slot with the gear you will get
ofc. you won't switch slot a lot as its way to expensive
narrow rapids
ah man 9.2 will be a min/max fiesta gear wise peepoSad
narrow rapids
._.
wind furnace
you basically need to consider that you can craft diffrent itemlevels in tier slots
narrow rapids
fuck this shit man honestly, just quitting the game till everything is unlocked
wait what
why is this shit like this
thank god im not a theory crafter or anything like this
south osprey
Being poor must be a nightmare
narrow rapids
needs to be pain in the ass
wind furnace
basically tier drops have the same itemlevel form token
but you can upgrade to a higher itemlevel if e.g. the slot drops at that itemlevel in raid
but thats something not to consider now
narrow rapids
Being poor must be a nightmare
i agree, got 100k left across all my chars ._.
wind furnace
people care too much about being optimal straight up
reality is you have quite some time to optimize after progression
and e.g. having your legendary on neck instead of head will not have high impact on your output
south osprey
Optimisation hits when the tier crafting unlocks
south osprey
Yeah, use 3last loot for higher tier if possible, legy on that slot for max gains
wind furnace
but atm i am more concerned about early power level, and people should too
narrow rapids
wdym with early power level?
wind furnace
well you won't start with mythic gear
so 2p/4p impact and one/two legendary is very important atm
as well as baseline
south osprey
We lose gems, gem set. It will be a hard hit
wind furnace
we had this discussion earlier with push
subtlety has a very strong baseline
so even when the tier set bonus is less apealing, its hard to argue against it for early progression
"why would i bring subtlety?"
well, it does 10% more damage, is in my book a good argument
however if numbers are this close in end game (when you get closer to bis)
i can see majority migrating to assassination in the long run
narrow rapids
i mean i will play every rouge spec anyway
south osprey
And miss the gamble of who gets the most procs back to back?
wind furnace
you are correct, in the end you play rogue not a specific spec
i just think the incentive to play subtlety should always be higher
because a lot of ppl won't touch it due to it being a bad alt spec given how punishing it is
narrow rapids
yeah will gear up sub first anyway bc of m+
wind furnace
because the problem is, if it isn't people just won't play it at all
this is from legion, but you basically see what the playerbase played
sub was played in tos where it was considered op even
and even during that time, assassination had a 33% play rate
idea case would be that all 3 specs get played
the 2nd best would be a equal split between sub/sin
(and thats a more realistic thing, given that outlaw would need to be noticeable stronger to even get played due to community perception)
wind furnace
this tier was quite good in that reguard, even tho there still was not a lot of incentive to play outlaw
sub/sin are about equal in parses
but outlaw...
narrow rapids
yeah im just worried bout outlaw next tier bc shards will deactivate
narrow rapids
bc idk if im right but outlaw dmg was pretty good bc of frost set
hasty jewel
I really want to run Nightstalker in 9.2 for the movement speed / burst, where can I find discussion on NS vs SF?
wind furnace
the interaction between 4p and legendary give assassination the boost to beat the loss of frost
and at least form the limited scope of single target sims
in the long run catch up to subtlety
narrow rapids
so in summarize sub for early progress and sin l8r on sin after getting optimized`?
wind furnace
possibly, but to early to tell
it looks like subtlety is with current tuning the best choice for progression but i am not super familiar with the fights esp. in mythic
narrow rapids
i mean sub is like good in every situation or not? especially in early progress on fights with adds bc of st funnel or not?
wind furnace
sub requires high boss uptime
sub is bad in 2/3 target cleave
the bust is not insane, kyrian is pmuch sustained single target at this point
venthyr or night fae have some burst with the covenant abilities, but both are lower tuned
the strengh is single target output, strong target switching, frequent cooldowns and insane funnel
bonus point, sub can high roll with the tier set
but also depends on procs with it... so take it as a negative would be reasonable too
narrow rapids
log fiesta gain leeeeees goooo
wind furnace
top logs def. will have a lot of procs
stone knoll
I'm just testing Sub set for fun and noticed that when I use SoD, the proc doesnt go away, is it known bug?
wind furnace
what proc
stone knoll
"your next combo point generator will crit strike"
it happens when I have SB active mostly
the one from 2p
stone knoll
I'll dm you footage
wind furnace
btw. just to make sure
you should test stuff on either the orgrimar or the order hall dummies
i found others to be less reliable
stone knoll
order hall (covenant one? ) or legion
nova nexus
order hall is legion
wind furnace
sry, covenant sanctum dummies not order hall
only dummies that work reliably seem to be covenant sanctum and orgrimar
wind furnace
the first strike does not consume symbols:
but also didn't critical strike:
it does not mean a lot in terms of dps as the next strike will consume it, still interesting bug
warm olive
but outlaw...
mellow urchin
complex game
also it doesnt matter if it happens on the first or second shadowstrike in most cases
it could be annoying for the symbols into stab situation, not sure if its been tried/looked at
clear zephyr
Think blizzard will put a secret phase in this time?
nova nexus
8 minute final fight turns into 28 minute fight with secret phase
wind furnace
also it doesnt matter if it happens on the first or second shadowstrike in most ...
need to check later
but it could matter with 4p shananingans
(need to double check but esp. in aoe symbols-finish potentially is the play due to symbols crit shananigans)
astral dragon
are they done with the renown tree in 9.2 or are we getting more levels/traits etc?
wind furnace
no soulbind tree changes in 9.2
only thing you get is 2 more ranks in conduits
this means at least for subtlety, the same soulbinds/conduits are the top ones (mika and theo)
there will probably be some changes for other soulbinds tho given that you can often go tripple potency instead with higher rank
(also with higher value on pv)
loud oriole
is akaari buff working in m+ at PTR?
wind furnace
wdym
next summit
sorry to be annoying @lament ore i only see LFR, normal and heroic SYLV daggers there. on the main link when I view it here: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aJwti637iF7ExoGjoujMoM - i must be missing something.
lament ore
there are three links
top 2 have mythic EoN
bottom has lower EoN
you don't need to have it all in the same sim to compare
just compare the numbers
next summit
yup thanks.
glass remnant
am i reading this right? H EoN>285 offhand?
shut valve
yes
glass remnant
crying
i mean hey, i got a heroic one finally so that's nice
also, unless it's super late at night so my reding comprehension is fucked (very possible) the two sims have reasonably different baselines? how big a gap is there between 246 and 259 eons for 9.2
lament ore
I mean
I literally just posted 2 pics
one with 259
one with 246
and they're all from the pinned sims
or wdym
nova nexus
this thread seems to have a lot of confusion regarding some pretty straight forward things.
glass remnant
i think in my head i saw "2x sylvanas" on both and read it as the same thing, rather than the 2x sylv in the lower ilvl comparison
next summit
also, unless it's super late at night so my reding comprehension is fucked (very...
162
glass remnant
because it's 3:30am where i live
glass remnant
yea i was just checkin it before i went to bed
prob doesnt help i've been scrambling my brain running snoreghast for kyrian renown lmao
mellow urchin
Massive note on these sims
DISCLAIMER
they are done with 252/259 gear but 9.2 set pieces and double legendary.
It does not reflect how dps will look like later into patch 9.2 and if you want a fair comparison you have to remove the set pieces (perhaps keep 2p) and the 2nd legendary for early prog comparisons.
lament ore
I'm just wondering about the EoN values, not the damage total
lament ore
ye, was wondering if higher total ilvl would make EoN weaker or stronger comparatively, or remain the same
mellow urchin
so its still relevant just for the sake of comparing EoN to no EoN or heroic to mythic EoN
weaker ofc
lament ore
mellow urchin
as the dmg proc on the dagger does not scale
with anything
while weapon dps and especially stats on a regular OH do
so the dagger will become weaker over time in 9.2
relatively speaking
wind furnace
also 1k dps early with 9-10k is a lot more
mellow urchin
is it 1k dps in early prog setting
wind furnace
than the diffrence you will have to the best daggers in the slot at max
mellow urchin
cus i assume the dagger gets benefits from the 4p
and if you dont have the 4p
that number could be skewed
humble frost
The thing with rupture as kyrian is because since shd has more uptime, skipping rupture in dances is more dmg overall right?
lament ore
mellow urchin
is less dmg than an eviscerate
i'd assume
ur still gonna apply rupture as soon as you leave dance
humble frost
Yeah i meant that, i wanted to know if there was other nontrivial condition :P
mellow urchin
No its just a dmg difference
wind furnace
dagger is ~1k dps agnostic to tier set
mellow urchin
are any of the sims you've done with 255 gear, 2p and no 2nd legendary
with like 272/278 MH dagger comparison
aka stuff you most likely will have for prog
wind furnace
if you specify what you want exactly, its easy to run a sim
e.g. i can dissable 4p on the sylvans sim if you want
buoyant gyro
is it 1k dps in early prog setting
Last I looked last night, Sub was ahead by ~1-1.2k for both pre-set profiles and also 4pc 1 legendary profiles. So it's gonna be substantially ahead until week 5 at least.
mellow urchin
Poggies
buoyant gyro
Until something strange happens
mellow urchin
Unless you mean?
buoyant gyro
Like Blizzard doing odd hotfixes 😄
mellow urchin
or what
buoyant gyro
Unless yeah, although until might be appropriate. Who knows lol
mellow urchin
i mean ye i wouldnt be super surprised to see a dagger nerf, its gonna suck fucking ass for sub but it seems like people want it for whatever reason.
lament ore
👀
buoyant gyro
It depends on how much Blizzard overreacts to W1-2 WCL?
I suppose
I mean it's kinda their fault they aren't releasing double legendary until W5, but not really sure how they are gonna tune around it
mellow urchin
unironically think sub is = dead spec if daggers are chunked.
mellow urchin
nah
lament ore
if daggie gets the axe
mellow urchin
theres no shot
buoyant gyro
I was speaking with Fuu about this last night, even though it will hurt Sub more
Assassination profiles use double Sylv daggers too for early prog
Not as much gain, but any negative adjustment will hurt them too
About half as much, but still hurt
mellow urchin
ye
buoyant gyro
Doubt it catches up until double legendary tbh
mellow urchin
i mean imagine if they remove the daggers, its like a straight 600-700 dps nerf
mellow urchin
perhaps
but then you look at bis profiles
that whispyr made
and sub/assa is like neck in neck
at later stages of gearing
buoyant gyro
Yeah I mean double legendary profiles are a different deal for sure
Dust boosts the value of everything a lot for Assassination
humble frost
Last I looked last night, Sub was ahead by ~1-1.2k for both pre-set profiles and...
Ahead of assa right? Or also outlaw
buoyant gyro
Haven't looked at Outlaw profiles yet. Gonna do that today
Can't imagine Outlaw fares much better though early on
It was relying heavily on Frost
wind furnace
Doubt it catches up until double legendary tbh
last time i checked it would catch up with 4p
dry jungle
Is there a max-gear sim for Sub yet? Or is that something you guys will be doing at all?
Just curious how it matches up with Sin's ST (knowing it might change tomorrow)
wind furnace
whispyr did one that was on 16.3k
but max gear is rly not that relevant at this point
dry jungle
Ah okay - I saw the other sims so I thought I'd ask
Yeah, more curiosity than anything
wind furnace
idk why people rly care about max gear before the raid is even out
buoyant gyro
I dunno, Whispyr's 4pc 1 legendary set was only around 11.8k DPS and my current live gear is at 12.8k DPS with 4pc. Dagger is 570 DPS on the Assassination profile and 1353 DPS on my profile. And it's also quite possible Sub just swaps to Venthyr if the dagger is nerfed instead of Kyrian.
Even if they dumpstered the dagger I still think Sub is gonna be ahead by a non-trivial amount
lament ore
idk why people rly care about max gear before the raid is even out
cause they see enha's sims with BiS stuff equipped and lose their minds
wind furnace
^
buoyant gyro
But I'd be surprised if that survives 😛
nova nexus
I love how propped up this spec is
at least assa & outlaw were propped up on stuff you could eventually get in 9.1
maybe if they nerf daggers RL will let me swap to warrior.
nova nexus
this is blizzard we’re talking about
buoyant gyro
sub is at 11.6k with 1 legendary 4p no sylvanas
Sure, but Assassination also loses about half as much DPS
You gotta subtract 500 DPS from the Assassination number as well at least
wind furnace
i try to create a fair profile, giveme a sec
winged fiber
I mean considering we have people that have contact blizz and they can look at something like boomi in 9.0 and 9.1 and not nerf them I feel like it’s pretty easy to just explain hey this shit quickly gets out scaled don’t worry about it
buoyant gyro
i try to create a fair profile, giveme a sec
also I think that profile has weapon enchants not working
nova nexus
I mean considering we have people that have contact blizz and they can look at s...
i think this is the same type of crap that goes on in the discords that are transparent with sims and those that are not. clearly rogue legos were balanced to target while others were not.
buoyant gyro
nova nexus
yet here rogues sit with 3 specs in top 5 of wcl
winged fiber
Yep and now we gotta worry about being middle of the pack / mediocre cuz we don’t sandbag 
nova nexus
cause parsing matters.
buoyant gyro
I mean I wouldn't really be worried about sandbagging when Enhance and Fury are both simming in the 18-19k range
😛
nova nexus
i don’t think we should sandbag. i think blizzard needs to be consistent with how they approach things
buoyant gyro
Right now balance numbers are so fucked up across the board that I frankly have no clue what Blizzard is gonna do about it
We got some specs at 13k some at 16k some at 18k
lol
winged fiber
Yea it’s pretty fucked
lament ore
mellow urchin
We got some specs at 13k some at 16k some at 18k
they got aces up their sleeves
buoyant gyro
shadowlands.enable_domination_gems=0
wind furnace
i prefere to just remove it manual
unsure if enchants work, i just used enchant string instead of enchant id
but if they don't its the same for both profiles
buoyant gyro
I don't think SimC nightly has the new stats for the tier set
nova nexus
when do final setups need to be submitted for simc?
buoyant gyro
Or maybe it does not sure
