when did you start playing?
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
nova nexus
hushed comet
in comparison to all SL trinkets i think jailer trinket is fine
nova nexus
bfa?
hushed comet
no
nova nexus
did you not play in legion or wod?
winged fiber
Could be cool but depends on how far you gotta move / how much dam it does / how it looks
nova nexus
or did you just not ever see the trinkets
winged fiber
I mean even bfa had a few good ones
hushed comet
i pvped back in wrath/cata. i just came back to the game and got into pve in SL
nova nexus
so you bascially missed mop - bfa as far as pve goes
winged fiber
All the good trinkets
hushed comet
i didn't pve in wrath or cata either lol
nova nexus
no wonder you're excited by this
winged fiber
Trinket visuals are really understated too
nova nexus
this is like 5 minutes worth of design time put into an item
winged fiber
Like if something looks hella fucking cool then even if the effect is somewhat bland then it’s still pog
hushed comet
no wonder you're excited by this
i never said i was excited
period
i said it should be strong
and imo is better than other SL trinkets so far
winged fiber
We haven’t had a good one in sl tbh
hushed comet
also trinkets were designed by the 1 guy doing a lot of work right now
nova nexus
SORRY I confused dope for exciting. I'm a boomer
hushed comet
so can you really blame him?
winged fiber
Iqd is probably the closest but all the downsides are so bad it just becomes annoying instead of fun lol
hushed comet
i think it's kinda pointless to complain so much idk
mint sequoia
Why are these sims so much higher than the pinned ones?
hidden magnet
Why are these sims so much higher than the pinned ones?
b4 nerf
mint sequoia
oh
plucky pendant
whats the word with venth vs kyr atm for 9.2? really dont wnna play kyr
oh venth is ahead
mellow urchin
for what content
plucky pendant
mythic raid
mellow urchin
its always hard to know what content ppl talk about
venthyr is definitely not ahead
plucky pendant
sry 🙂
mellow urchin
for raiding
plucky pendant
oh word
mellow urchin
its a big difference
that said, depending on what kinda of level you play at, you can still play venthyr and its not gonna matter
plucky pendant
8/10m rn
mellow urchin
ye i dont think kyrian or venthyr will matter
plucky pendant
im not understanding the sims was just curious on the % difference thats being simmed atm
placid canyon
im not understanding the sims was just curious on the % difference thats being s...
Kyrian feels way nicer to play anyway with all the extra CDR from the lego
plucky pendant
Kyrian feels way nicer to play anyway with all the extra CDR from the lego
really eh? ill need to find a guide and maybe give it a shot havent even tried
placid canyon
Yeah, just gotta make sure you have a good WA that tracks it if you're not using standard UI
nova nexus
kyrian is 1600 dps ahead of venthyr
so it’s a sizable differnce if you’re pushing hof
if you just don’t like it, don’t play it.
plucky pendant
i like big dam too, anylinks to a guide /rotation not seeing anything for kyr
placid canyon
Its a simple concept really, just normal rotation and finishing on the highlighted CPs. Can be a kind of annoying minigame though with the passive CP's you generate as sub
gusty thunder
Just to sum things up, Kyrian (Cove and Akaari) for raids and Venthyr (Obe/Finality) for M+?. Thanks, sorry it was probably asked many times, I haven't been able to keep up with discord.
hushed comet
pretty much. whatever it says in the pins
thick wren
Kyrian with 4pc might be tricky to catch 2cp finisher =_=
wonder if it's worth to energy cap waiting for passive CP after finisher to get 2cp finisher
mellow urchin
Kyrian with 4pc might be tricky to catch 2cp finisher =_=
if you dont have blades up
you can have time to finish into finish
with a proc
thick wren
if you dont have blades up
thanks, that was so simple yet impossible to understand when I playtested with 300+ latency
clear zephyr
If your getting too many procs to hit your empowered 2 cp i think youll be aight
buoyant gyro
I mean you have 45 seconds and if you don’t hit it once per fight it’s not gonna be a deal breaker. The conditions that would cause it to be super difficult are all dps positive things in general.
gusty thunder
pretty much. whatever it says in the pins
Thank you.
coarse quiver
kyrian is 1600 dps ahead of venthyr
wai5t where the fuck is the 1600 dps diff sim
coarse quiver
yeah theres no fucking shot theres a 1600 diff, MAYBE 4-600
coarse quiver
yeah thought so
hushed comet
with 4p looks like 400
2p as well. single leggo at least
but double it gets biggg
coarse quiver
oh really
mellow urchin
Ye the pins has 2 sims
The dagger sims
Which puts it at 650 or some shit
Venthyr is also crazy rng in 9.2
nova nexus
haha whoops. yeah -600 not 1600. fat fingered that one
coarse quiver
i keep hearing venthyr is rng why is that
potential giga CDR?
i dont really see it
hushed comet
more stacks from the rng set bonus maybe?
coarse quiver
i mean we force 30 stacks
mellow urchin
Well you can get procs in flag window which is quite good
coarse quiver
ah yeah i guess i see getting proics at max vers would be good
nova nexus
versa buff + procs = rng
mellow urchin
Also having blades uptime and procs
nova nexus
and having procs up and procs
mellow urchin
But there might be some issues with the apl, havent looked at it
nova nexus
i love rng
mellow urchin
Idk how the symbols sync is working with the tier set
If flag is reduced too much during moments of insane rng
Its possible the bot is holding 2nd symbols
Which is probably bad for dps
Also overcapping dance/dancing when it shouldnt because of the extra cdr
The flag apl is prob the most volatile shit sub has cus of all the syncing
hushed comet
kyrian just seems like it's going to be better in general
playstyle wise and dps wise
feeds more into subs cdr loop etc
mellow urchin
Yea probably
But i think there might be some gains for venthyr that hasnt been explored
hushed comet
yeah i could see it
though you'd have to be sorta cracked at all the diff timings you could get per pull
depending on how big the rng is
hushed comet
i don't really like cdr on flag in general for sub even now
mellow urchin
And afaik nobody has looked at it
hushed comet
holding any kind of cdr ability to sync feels kinda weird gameplay wise
mellow urchin
Ye
hushed comet
like running stiletto too etc
mellow urchin
Stiletto is just a slam on cd thing in next patch, i think
hushed comet
i love the concept of cdr on abilities but if you have to line them up with other cdr abilities it's kinda jank
yeah i assume you'll want max uptime
it's just hard to fit those kinds of things into subs playstyle i feel like
mellow urchin
Its the more cps equals more cps loop that we love
hushed comet
seeing as how most cp gen comes from dance+symbols windows etc
mellow urchin
Flag usage will prob be more fluid
In next patch
But idk
Current usage is quite strict
winged fiber
i had that happen a few times during ptr testing @mellow urchin
where i could break my flag cdr outside of the hold symbols for rule since it was like ~20 away
especially on cleave/aoe where it procs and you just spam bp or evis
winged fiber
i'm sure it could use a lil love
not to mention iuno if they hashed out the rulings for
finishing on 4-6 cp during flag
with procs or without procs with blades etc
i know fuu was talking about potential gains with only finishing on 6 again
once u got 4 pc
a while back
winged fiber
not entirely sure tbh
i only do basic apl / sim stuff lol and usually consult people to help with that
but that's another thing i've noticed with the tier
is you get free dances here and there
or like
say you get 10 seconds of shadowblades
normally you wouldn't be dancing because you're not about to overcap
and you aren't in a symbols window
but if you danced 5-10 seconds later you wouldn't get the blades benefit
and dancing with the blades benefit gives you enough dance cdr to basically make it ok
i noticed that A LOT in ptr testing
where if i got good 2 pc procs i could fling out some dances where normally i wouldn't
mellow urchin
Venthyr has almost 10% less dance than kyrian with the tier set
winged fiber
yea
mellow urchin
In sim
winged fiber
but like right now
we do 2 dances every symbols basically
sometimes 1
with bad procs
on ptr you get extra dances
mellow urchin
Yea i know
winged fiber
in between symbols
iuno if the apl for venth does that properly since it's trying to force syncs
mellow urchin
Just curious if there could be less strict dancing, might brick the apl
mellow urchin
It does use cds at quite awkward timings in the sample
winged fiber
iuno if he's awake rn tho
mellow urchin
Well its holding both flag and symbols at times
And symbols reaching the 10 sec mark more often
winged fiber
yea that's def gotta be played with then
the flag rotation is a lot more fluid and responsive with the tier imo than just
hold this sync this every time
cuz of extra dancing / cdr gains
mellow urchin
Perhaps, should be looked into at least
wind furnace
Just curious if there could be less strict dancing, might brick the apl
what is your idea, i can take a look
wind furnace
also just to mention it straight up, the agressive dance condition from kyrian did not end up as a damage win on venthyr
sinful nimbus
ok i have read through most of the pinned comments and FAQ and i have one question left: I have venthir on 80 renown and i am currently catching up on kyrian. am i good then for m+ aswell? or is fae or necro viable there?
neat dagger
m+ = venth for sure
wind furnace
necrolord does fall behind in 9.2
it does not even sim that well in dungeon slice anymore
venthyr stays the best choice for m+
sinful nimbus
ok thx. that means kyrian for raid and venthir for some raidbosses and m+
wind furnace
yes
neat dagger
kyr is only for ST bosses, if some adds coming in where we can funnel we will take venth or?
wind furnace
also if you have the option and don't own a eon yet, its possibly good to try to get it
kyrian for single target or 2 target cleave
venthyr beats it else
sinful nimbus
also if you have the option and don't own a eon yet, its possibly good to try to...
im new to rouge, what is an eon
wind furnace
the dagger from sylvanas
it is a very powerful item that stays relevant for the spec for the rest of the xpac (unless something changes)
sinful nimbus
ok im raiding mythic (8/10 on my feral atm) so no acess to the mythic dagger
is it good in hc?
wind furnace
heroic version is fine too
even a normal version would be close to the best possible weapon drop in 9.2
sinful nimbus
ok then ill try to convince my raidlead to run heroic silvanas for the rest of 9.1.5
wind furnace
(in offhand, mainhand will be replaced)
sinful nimbus
thx for the help
wind furnace
no problem, if there is anything else just ask
neat dagger
sadly boosting is no topic anymore :x
wind furnace
boosting is still a option, you just need to go through different channels
e.g. you can go to guilds and ask for a boost in exchange for gold, thats still within tos
sinful nimbus
ok i will ask when somthing comes up. but the pinned comments and FAQ already gave alot to think about. i think i need to try stuff now before more questions come up 😄
maybe one more question: I plan on only building one R6 legendary before i get the belt on week 5. is finality on R6 good enough for the first 4 weeks (no hardcore progress, just 4.5h/week)
neat dagger
yeah sure, but first i need to search a guild who boosts, i dont know actually 😄 but yeah, ty
sinful nimbus
im thinking finality so i can use it for both kyr and ven
wind furnace
one thing about crafting initially
sinful nimbus
and good value in m+ and raid
wind furnace
the suggested slots are not tier slots, but its likely that you will use tier slots in the long run due to power budget or stats
tho the diffrence between slots in terms of output is not as dramatic as ppl assume
but you can also re-craft legendary items easy
only issue is the cost of the crafting components
sinful nimbus
im thinking finality on back slot. and then recraft the covenant legendary on either chest leg or head, depending what tier piece i am missing when im ready to recraft it
wind furnace
you will probably get all tier slots sooner or later
but back is a good choice to not conflict with tier slots
sinful nimbus
yeah and probably before im ready to craft my 2. max level legendary
wind furnace
(tier slots are head, chest, legs, hands, shoulders)
sinful nimbus
and best values are chest legs and head?
wind furnace
in terms of stat budget yes
hands potentially are a interesting slot too
because the current tier has bad stats on hands what would allow you to eliminate them
sinful nimbus
that can maybe solved by crafting a tier slot on m+ gear, no?
wind furnace
crafting won't unlock till week 8
but once crafting is possible, you get more options for sure
sinful nimbus
ok. this tier will be different for me, as i will not start with a mythic equipped char from last tier.
ah one more thing maybe. will there be a decent catchup for conduits in 9.2?
wind furnace
biggest power budget this tier is in the sylvanas daggers
median girder
Does crafting tier sets on m+ gear change the stats? I remember they said it won't affect stats...
so tier chest would always have the same stats. regardless of the "donor" m+ item
but i could be wrong
wind furnace
i haven't tested it on ptr but i think you want raid items as donor due to itemlevel
thick wren
Do we get same ilvl tier pieces from first and last bosses?
wind furnace
yes
what is somewhat funny because you need to actually use the crafting to get highest possible itemlevel if i remember it correct
thick wren
on the other side it is somewhat great since you can pick big helms and other last mythic boss pieces to get them last boss tier pieces 8 weeks later, and I know my guild won't likely be past anduin for that time
assuming tier set items from last bosses will be the same ilvl as the first bosses' tier pieces, which is usually equal to GV mythic plus top gear
midnight goblet
According to dungeon journal, the last 3 boss give hgher ilvl tem (+7 ilvl)
For tier set as leather it will be shoulders and chest
According to previous item ranking for legendaries (wich always was +3 ilvl than max ilvl obtainable) R7 leg would be 288 if i'm correct
nova nexus
291
midnight goblet
So, considering that, wouldn't be best to craft finality on Chest (Crit/vers > Haste/vers) and higher ilvl ?
nova nexus
it’s best to craft it on a non tier slot and recraft it once you have 5 tier piece and can move stuff around.
you have 2 legos you’re basically playing with item slots on
midnight goblet
Yeah for opportunity loto
Okay
loot*
So go neck first for akakr too ?
My smashed keyboard give me an hard time guys, sorry for the missing letters x)
wind furnace
Why are these sims so much higher than the pinned ones?
even the pinned sim is not 100% correct, wm behaves inconsistent atm what means we are below the 13.3k on kyrian
nova nexus
or just wait until you get 4 tier pieces and 2L are unlocked since you’re just playing ER or Obedience until then
midnight goblet
please don't do that again
ahah
i'm leggit reading every messages i missed here since 3weeks and didn't see this one
wind furnace
i mean, night fae is not that much worse than venthyr
midnight goblet
I even got to read the arg between the pro nerf and anti eon nerf
wind furnace
i rly did not thing people would follow that conversation
midnight goblet
Also, i'm a bit sad about the amunt of hast we got on the tier item
I knd of figure yu said it wasn't that important
wind furnace
haste mastery 😵💫
midnight goblet
but, i mean, if i got a 278 crit vers waist from ToP (or MIST can't remember) where am i abble to move the Unity leggo ? All slt or only a few are available ?
nova nexus
any slot not a trinket or weapon
midnight goblet
Okay thanks Scath
nova nexus
and if you’re going to multi spec that choice may change.
midnight goblet
Okay then ultimately if i have all 5 tier pieces i would like to go with helm or chest for higher stat budget but save one pof them to have 4P bonus
nova nexus
there’s no reason to obsess over it since you’re stuck with whatever drops
midnight goblet
Yeah
Aggreed
Well, i guess i'm sticking with my finality cloak atm and make an akkari neck before prices raise up
Thanks for your time guys
nova nexus
you won’t need akaari until 5 weeks into the patch
so just wait for a 291 neck?
or farm the base mats for a 291
wind furnace
the one thing i rly dislike about legendary items is the costs associated with crafting
midnight goblet
R5 neck are 10kpo atm on my realm
wind furnace
there is no reason to rly have legendary items this expensive/hard to craft
nova nexus
why would you want a rank 5?
midnight goblet
Just figure it won't be a waiste to have it ready. Still don't know wich leggo I upgrade first considering my guild won't raid for more than 6h/week
nova nexus
there is no reason to rly have legendary items this expensive/hard to craft
just one of the many design flaws in the game
midnight goblet
why would you want a rank 5?
When 5th week come, then i have akkari R6 / ER R7 ? I misscount the higher leggo rank, sorry
wind furnace
just one of the many design flaws in the game
nova nexus
if you buy r5 akaari you still have to buy r6 or r7 and you’ve wasted whatever money you spent on r5
midnight goblet
yeah, i meant R6 not R5, sorry for that mistake
nova nexus
you still have to make it into a rank 7. if you’re not going to use it until week 5 you’re just pissing away gold
if you’re not making a r7 then go for it
west basalt
Do you know if it’s possible to have 2 legendary ring equipped ? Covenant + class lego
midnight goblet
So what leggo should we upgrade first ? I cas assuming ER then akkari in ST purpose
mellow urchin
Do you know if it’s possible to have 2 legendary ring equipped ? Covenant + clas...
sure why not
but what legendary is on ring
nothing for sub
celerity?
wind furnace
ma 😛
grim rover
It mightve been said but which slot would you make akaari's on?
mellow urchin
what is your idea, i can take a look
ease on the restrictions related to symbols/dance for flag windows
mellow urchin
It mightve been said but which slot would you make akaari's on?
neck
grim rover
Roger that
west basalt
Yeah, maybe there is the Unique property on legendaries. But I guess it is Unique for a specific legendary
From what I remember necks and rings were the most expensive vessels to buy...
mellow urchin
super expensive to level
wind furnace
dont find the trinket in the backlog of simc, might have missed it
lets see how it sims, probably easiest way to check
233, lets put it on 252 to compare on equal base
mellow urchin
weird
it should be quite strong
since its on a 30 sec cd
and lines up with every symbols
i guess the effects are kinda weak
fuu ur simming it with a on-use trinket
wind furnace
oh, beginner mistake
mellow urchin
its gonna cannibalize the fusion amp
mellow urchin
wind furnace
changes trinket slot, so lets see
mellow urchin
just sim it with phial
that was even worse
weird
i guess its not too bad with on-use
wind furnace
potentially, i expected it to be better tbh
mossy carbon
It doesn't give mainstat, and the secondary stats are really low on the wowhead page - not sure what the actual values will be
mossy carbon
potentially, i expected it to be better tbh
Is it correct that to check different versions (hc/mythic) of the trinket I just need to change the "ilevel=xxx" at the end of this line?
nova nexus
sadly the 285 isn’t a prog item, which is what many of us care about.
nova nexus
if numerically it’s equal, it’s worse since AMP has no curse attached to it.
wind furnace
amp is just a strong trinket
also unsure if trinkets are final on ptr and implementation perfect
mossy carbon
It's equal when 33 ilevels ahead, classes with 2 min cds will probably get a lot more out of it but it doesn't seem strong enough to justify the curse
mellow urchin
amp isnt that strong
delicate osprey
right now it has bugged stats
it is not 68 and goes up a bit it will be like 200 or more
mellow urchin
like if the KT trinket at 259 can be within 20 dps
of amp
i am sure a 285 jailer trinket would beat a 252 amp simply cus of the sheer amount of agi
nova nexus
it is not 68 and goes up a bit it will be like 200 or more
and the haste on tier set is getting replaced. 
mossy carbon
i am sure a 285 jailer trinket would beat a 252 amp simply cus of the sheer amou...
There is no agi though
nova nexus
no agility isn’t exactly a problem
often times by the last tier we want secondaries stats more than primary
mossy carbon
I think hacha is right though, the values are lower than they should be
clear zephyr
I missed that also if true
mellow urchin
and the haste on tier set is getting replaced. <:copium:854628182104080414>
they are
you have to actually be cracked
to think otherwise
wind furnace
mellow urchin
if scarizard wasnt chased out of the discord, he would probably update us on it
wind furnace
if scarizard wasnt chased out of the discord, he would probably update us on it
huh? what did i miss
mossy carbon
The secondaries you get also do not have 100% uptime except haste, you get 100% haste, 80% vers, 60% crit, 40% mastery - I think maths is right
clear zephyr
Think he went on vacation last week
mossy carbon
so i assume he just had enough
He was moving or something
clear zephyr
Hahaha
mellow urchin
forgot
wind furnace
maybe, he is busy with other specs/classes
mellow urchin
idk it was kind of a clownshow the last time he spoke in here
clear zephyr
Can’t argue there
mossy carbon
I mean if I was a wow developer I'm not sure I would spend my free time while I'm moving house answering degenerates' questions on discord
mellow urchin
i agree xelion
its a stupid topic, lets move on
point is
i dont think the tier gear will remain being a copy of SoD
for all leather users
:))
if it was just rogue, then yea maybe
but its literally just all leather gear has the same stats
south osprey
30 sec work. Very efficient 
mellow urchin
not only leather tho
every single tier piece
in the game
is a direct stat copy of SoD items
if you think thats intentional
i have no words
wind furnace
we will know sooner or later
mellow urchin
sure
but ppl are panicking about stats
and then some ppl say "ye thats just bad luck"
wind furnace
people also panick about legendary slots
mellow urchin
when its probably 99% to be changed
wind furnace
and reality is the difference between those is rather low
mellow urchin
i mean ye stats doesnt matter a whole lot either
the haste you get from the tier set still puts you below 10% if you use something else on other items
wind furnace
you can re-craft them potentially
mellow urchin
no
nova nexus
you think they worry about stats. I think they are fine with copy paste. less time allocated to it. 
mellow urchin
you cant fish for stats
wowhead is being confusing in their article for some reason
wind furnace
oh, so its only itemlevel
mellow urchin
"off tier pieces"
meaning
belt, boots etc
can be recrafted to give the transmog look
thats at least how i interpreted their article
icy dawn
But when you craft the new Tier piece via this forge will the stats stay or get the Tier piece stats? Because you Need a base item for it?
mossy carbon
get tier piece stats
icy dawn
Unlucky then
mellow urchin
is it even in the ptr?
it is
thats how wowhead wrote their article, used it ingame
but its so confusing that its hard to read what its actually doing, very strange writing
nova nexus
can someone take a pvp piece and try it?
mellow urchin
you need resources
and idk if thats just given to you
i doubt ppl that arent wowhead will struggle and farm resources on ptr
nova nexus
i see. was thinking resources on the vendor. silly me.
mellow urchin
they might be on a vendor
honestly havent looked for it
havent played much ptr this patch
not very interesting when nothing works until its like 2 weeks left
nova nexus
abstract sundial
I'm sorry for asking this again but I can't find my last question on it
Whats the plan for backstab in dance?
Namely will it be a thing and under what circumstances and how much will I suffer if I just straight ignore it like I want to
feral schooner
Whats the plan for backstab in dance?
You backstab during dance when you are playing the PV conduit, reached 6 stacks (maximum) and shadowblades is running. These stacks lets your backstab do more damage. With the 2pac the uptime on shadowblades is very high. This means more backstab during dance.
livid ferry
@nova nexus kalkning made a vid on youtube about recrafting items into tier and pvp item aswell . Along with m+ gear.
loud oriole
bad thing is I have a stance macro for the same key backstab or SS.... will need to rebind backstab
feral schooner
bad thing is I have a stance macro for the same key backstab or SS.... will need...
Yeah had the same issue. btw this idea about using bs during shadowblades works even now.
abstract sundial
I assume you're still trying to not overcap cp etc
loud oriole
even now but assuming u are using PV right?
shouldn't be a thing I would care for m+ which is what I mostly do... not sure about 9.2 m+ though
nova nexus
@mellow urchin first minute of the video, tier set stats won’t change. https://youtu.be/B0qNvz5s8aY
mellow urchin
they dont change in the system ye
that was already known no?
they have said that multiple times
"you cant fish for your best stats"
loud oriole
which sucks, since they 90% of them got haste
nova nexus
i mean it’s just proof to it since it seemed to be some confusion with wowhead
civic terrace
Pls no haste
delicate osprey
all the mastery because blizz loves it then also enjoys making it useless
twin parcel
Wait so are we not supposed to press Bs in dance with 6 stacks if we don’t have blades up?
delicate osprey
the biggest gain was if dance had more than 3 secs left and blades
no idea when it becomes neutral/loss
twin parcel
Fair. I keep trying PV but my PE conduit is higher IL so I run that most of the time anyways, Wana get used to it for next tier tho
delicate osprey
yea get used to that on kyrian
twin parcel
Yeah. Honestly wish stiletto wasn’t ass I like 1.5 minute blades
nova nexus
stiletto isn’t exactly ass. sblades is a shit 3min cd
rapid ledge
stiletto isn’t exactly ass. sblades is a shit 3min cd
we can be happy that theres worse than sblades. shaman fire elemental must be the worst 3 min in the game lol
the free CP from it feels good 🙂
lament ore
we can be happy that theres worse than sblades. shaman fire elemental must be th...
but it's 2.5 mins
acoustic cobalt
So is converting upgradable m+ loot into tier sets going to be the move? Obvz access to 272 gear will be contingent on m+ score but seems like it’s overall an easier method to get higher ilvl tier gear doesn’t it (excluding mythic raid)
feral schooner
Yes after 8 weeks into the patch everyone who plays decently in mythic plus should have a full mythic set
acoustic cobalt
Nice I like that
acoustic cobalt
In what way? Ease of gear acquisition?
feral schooner
its how the catalyst works
hushed comet
There’s a Cool down on the crafting too
feral schooner
yeah just get lucky with vault pieces of 272 tier set eligible items and convert it
feral schooner
There’s a Cool down on the crafting too
the cd is one per week and starts with the release of the patch
its nice cause alts after 8 weeks can have a tier set nearly instantly
hushed comet
Or just get actual tier gear from the vault 
feral schooner
Or just get actual tier gear from the vault <:monkahmm:585734084571955211>
yes or that :p
hushed comet
You can get tier from every type of content
feral schooner
yes
hushed comet
Just fill all 9 vault slots ez
civic terrace
Just loot it from mythic bosses smh
acoustic cobalt
I’m a fan of this gear acquisition method. Let’s raiders get rewarded for being ahead of the curve but levels it all out pretty nicely over time. Less RNG too which everybody can appreciate
Though one thing I wasn’t clear on from that kelani video, If you convert an m+ upgradable item into tier, do you continue upgrading it using conquest or flux?
nova nexus
people will be angry once they have full tier and the vault items keep randomly rolling their instead of say a dagger or phial. it is what it is.
fair vortex
people will be angry once they have full tier and the vault items keep randomly ...
Vault might be low key toxic this tier with all the loot from taz and tier pieces water down the already large loot pool
nova nexus
it 100% will be more difficult to roll specific max level items from it
legit 2 of the raid dagger are on tier bosses, tier taking over vault slots, good luck getting a dagger
acoustic cobalt
I wonder how hard it would be to implement a vault exclusion system. Like you get to say I don’t want X armor slot this week before the vault generates the items
fair vortex
There was an interview with a dev a month or so ago where they alluded to testing some systems like that where you can like freeze a vault option or something. Likely not implemented this xpac
wind furnace
i think there is a conflict in interesst
we as players always want finite/easy solutions, but game devs might want to have higher engagement
nova nexus
the tier is definitely going to be a priority, but lets say you pvp and don’t want tier because of lack of ver. and you roll two tier pieces in your weekly.
engagement is fine, but your legit make the vault feel bad after a certain point and no i don’t have a solution. it’s much better than BfA 1 item no azerite.
vault currency for a vendor would solve it
wind furnace
e.g. having people play a boss for months to get a item instead of having a system that allows you to circumstance bad drops after a certain system
inherently there is interesst in conserving gear drops as the main cause of aquisation
and there is a incentive to keep rng involved
systems like bonus rolls that would allow you to aggregate your luck got changed to a vault
nova nexus
you can take x item from vau or currency that can be used on a vendor for any vault droppable item for content you’ve cleared.
abstract sundial
Honestly miss reroll currency
wind furnace
and the vault while having more options, still does worse in solving gear aquisition issue compared to simply having bonus rolls
nova nexus
i would just view the currency as weekly blp. say 4 vaults gets you enough currency for 1 item
what is that a total of 8 targeted items over the tier?
wind furnace
currency systems like valor could work
bonusrolls are inherently a system to help with bad luck
and you could target loot a lot better with it
rapid ledge
vault currency for a vendor would solve it
maybe instead of the useless tokens that give us 1500 knowledge. that would be a great way to fix those elusive vault drop
wind furnace
vault in general seems to be buggy too
some ppl did report getting the same/similar items a lot and the chances for that are fairly low
rapid ledge
oh man, the dagger from the nine seems to be in my vault every goddamn week. sometimes its juste perceptions. bring me stats and ill believe 🤔
nova nexus
my vault is pretty consistent with dupes on rogue. warrior doesn’t have as many
a noticeable amount of dupes
rapid ledge
there has to be someone who noted every drops from every vault opened. until then ill assume its random and my brain thinks its always the same loot since i picked the token for 5 weeks in a row
wind furnace
yes people did write down their drops and calculated probabilities
nova nexus
even if it’s just one person that could legit be just bad rng. would need a larger data pool, but much like the priest azerite until you figure it out you don’t know it’s broken
wind furnace
yes
you always need a lot of data to have a reasonable estimate, however for e.g. calculate how likely it is that you see the same item multiple times esp. if the slot only has few drops... its suefficient
nova nexus
i’m pretty sure it was priests where their bis azerite at max level random couldn’t actually roll so they were doing the one item lower
clear zephyr
some ppl did report getting the same/similar items a lot and the chances for tha...
Yes my vault has had tarragrue neck and fatescribe helmet for 3 out of 4 weeks
Odds of that are so small without there being a bug
pseudo crown
Thinking about the Sylvanas dagger. If it's truly gonna be a big deal for the next patch, doesn't it seem quite likely that Blizzard will nerf it?
They seem to generally dislike old items staying relevant like that.
hushed comet
Thinking about the Sylvanas dagger. If it's truly gonna be a big deal for the ne...
Nope
I mean we can’t ever know for sure as they could do whatever they want. But I kinda doubt it will get nerfed
There’s a decent amount of history for items staying relevant beyond their current patches in this game
pseudo crown
Oof. I'm rerolling rogue so that's gonna be a pain.
hushed comet
It only stays as bis in the off hand slot compared to other daggers
Once you get like 278 or 285 ilvl dagger for main hand that is
Don’t fully remember
hushed comet
Early on it’s quite a big difference
winged fiber
yea if you're a top 100 world guild it matters for early prog
otherwise you should be ok
hushed comet
But in the end after you get high ilvl daggers it’s not
pseudo crown
Hoping that I'll manage to get a dagger in these last two resets.
hushed comet
yea if you're a top 100 world guild it matters for early prog
It matters for anyone who doesn’t get good daggers until they get good daggers
But nah not really a big deal
pseudo crown
I'm not. I mostly do m+ in the +23/+24 range.
winged fiber
it makes a diff yes but it doesn't stop you from killing bosses
pseudo crown
Yeah I know.
winged fiber
honestly don't worry about it too much
hushed comet
Unless the raid is tuned insane
pseudo crown
I'm just a filthy minmax Andy
hushed comet
Imagine a world where rwf lasts until double legendaries
pseudo crown
Yikes
hushed comet
hushed comet
I wonder if that’d change the winner
hushed comet
like actually none
I mean it was like that back in the day
pseudo crown
I don't think it'll ever be tuned hard enough that it'll take these guys 3 resets to kill it.
hushed comet
Before it was a big deal tho
pseudo crown
And it really shouldn't be
lament ore
RWF hasn't taken even 2 resets for years
mellow urchin
that was done weeks ago
nova nexus
which build? i didn’t recall seeing it last week when I checked drops but i was more looking at stats
buoyant gyro
like actually none
I mean I don't disagree with you, although not sure it's in the realm of "no way"
The tuning delta after losing SoD before we get 4pc sets + double legendary + gear is actually really extreme
Likely it will just end up like SoD where it's tuned to be plausible for RWF then everyone else blasts every damage check trivially for the rest of the tier
But there's a world where it could be the opposite 😛
Pretty big gap between people doing like 9k DPS and doing 13k DPS and it just depends what they tune around
buoyant gyro
I do agree it's highly likely that Blizzard will cave and make things killable within the first few weeks though
Even though it's a tuning nightmare
nova nexus
i really don’t understand why they would start the raid with 1L instead of just tuning around 2
seems like they’re asking for trouble.
buoyant gyro
Yeah idk, it's honestly a tuning disaster lol
nova nexus
it actually hurts my brain to try to figure out the through process on that one
oooh players love power spikes!!!!!!
buoyant gyro
I'd imagine the thought process is likely they'll try to wrap up their traditional ~1 month after RWF opens tuning pass when the 2nd leggos arrive at the same time
But that could lead to some pretty wild changes
Considering average 4pc rate for non-split run scenarios is like ~3 weeks, that also doesn't help tuning either
There's like 2 massive breakpoints in the tuning at different times this tier
nova nexus
supposedly liquid expects to have 4pc on everyone.
hushed comet
I mean they’re going to do insane splits
nova nexus
who knows to what ends they’re going to accomplish that
hushed comet
And pay people millions of gold
Their players also have 3 characters of their mains
With all of that, plus getting full m+ and pvp boxes on every character
I bet they have close to the entire raid decked in tier
buoyant gyro
who knows to what ends they’re going to accomplish that
I mean they'll need to have multiple identical toon prepped to do that
Due to the trading rules, there's not much way to brute force it otherwise in the first couple weeks
Just have to have more opportunities at RNG highrolls
In straight numerical terms the average is like 3.2 weeks or something
Across a whole guild, with trading considered
Only way to really beat that for EVERYONE is to have multiple characters
nova nexus
yeah no idea how much of it will be via pvp, box and normal trading.
be curious to see what they actually big brain and if it works
buoyant gyro
That's like the full "simulation" Emallson has written about distribution rates, trading, and GV chances
nova nexus
after realizing how oof daggers will be I really wish we would have gotten sylv down sooner
buoyant gyro
On average across a normal isolated raid team you could only really expect to see about 50% of your team with 4pc on week 2
To beat that significantly will require additional duplicate characters
nova nexus
yeah
buoyant gyro
Or extremely good luck
clear zephyr
Is that considered clearing both difficulties?
clear zephyr
thank you
nova nexus
and class stacking as best you can
i do hope we don’t see rwf determined by one team high rolling and getting a full raid of 4pc vs another team only having 2/3 of the team in 4pc
hushed comet
that's just how it happens sometimes unfortunately
didn't echo have more shards than limit this past time?
hushed comet
pretty sure they had more shard sets
clear zephyr
They were in favor of who had unholy shards aka their warriors
But they played very well
hushed comet
sure i'm not debating that
simply asked a question about how many sets ahead they were
think it was at least 2 if not 3
nova nexus
honestly the mistakes liquids boomkins made learning venthyr probably was a bigger set back than anything else. they had a lot of shit deaths while figuring out the covenant lego
clear zephyr
Sounds about right dont know for sure.
nova nexus
echo stayed Nf
clear zephyr
I think the layout of tier tokens and both guilds having plenty of "bucket" characters. It will be pretty even tier set wise
iirc it was mentioned they did not have enough heads up time on how the dom shard sets would function so there was a bigger rng on how the gearing process went
hushed comet
yeah i think both guilds would have prepped more characters
something like shards having RNG to drop
and the socketed items having RNG to drop
is pretty crippling
it took me so long to get my unholy set that frost got buffed before i spent my embers on unholy lmfao
clear zephyr
Yeah pretty toxic early tier design lol
hushed comet
yeah
the literally same day i got my 3rd unholy shard
was the day they leaked the shards getting nerfed to smithereens
clear zephyr
oof
hushed comet
so i waited until the next reset
and upgraded frost when it got buffed
if they had gone through with those nerfs
this tier would have been giga hard
nova nexus
the sets got a big power spike just before launch
hushed comet
the later bosses wouldn't have just fallen over so easily
nova nexus
no one was expecting that much of a gain
hushed comet
yeah
i was expecting to go from like 6k dps to maybe 10k max this tier
and we ended up with like 12k end game 
winged fiber
also just to mention it straight up, the agressive dance condition from kyrian d...
it's kind of differen't from just dance on cd like kyrian, one thing i noticed a lot during ptr testing for venth is you can dance when you get good 2 pc procs say like 10-20 seconds of shb and normally you wouldn't dance here (not during symbols, not about to overcap) you'd dance say 8-10 seconds later with symbols, but the cdr refund from dancing early with shb + random 4 pc / wm / additional 2 pc procs basically covers it as a free dance
also noticed a few instances of flag being able to break away from symbols due to good 4 pc procs
more commonly / frequently on cleave / aoe
nova nexus
venthyr was more of a pain in the ass to play around consistently.
pretty much as you’re describing it
kyrian felt way more consistent with timings
winged fiber
venth is very play based off your procs
nova nexus
even when high rolling. .
winged fiber
it seemed to me
like you just have to realize when you can burn free dances
getting 2 / 4 pc procs
nova nexus
yea
nova nexus
and flag can take off with procs while juiced up on vers
winged fiber
i'm not sure how you'd work that into the apl lol
yea def
free shadowstrikes during vers juice is nuts
i kinda like it though tbh
nova nexus
feels too 5 roll
winged fiber
gives more thought process / skill expression to venth without having to stare at your cp
it is pretty rng lol
wind furnace
Kyrian down to 13.1k, that seems still fine
potent vault
What happened?
wind furnace
I did mention it yesterday shortly but WM behaviour seems to have changed or we missed that change
PV did proc from WM in earlier ptr builds from testing but does not anymore
the 13.3k was already a bit lower before changing this, but its now representing the ptr behavior correctly
the github changelog: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/2e95c4173028d4a5da1542e0b4bfdad3d496230c
mellow urchin
Does it work on akaari still?
wind furnace
yes
mellow urchin
Does it work on akaari wm?
wind furnace
it seems to not work on wm procs at all
the impact of wm procs on akaaris is however a lot lower than from wm procs in general
mellow urchin
So i guess there is no stab in dance anymore?
coarse kettle
I did mention it yesterday shortly but WM behaviour seems to have changed or we ...
do you think this is intended?
wind furnace
its rly hard to say what is and what isn't intended
akaaris proccing pv is for me a very nice change for 9.2 that adds interesting gameplay
i don't think its bad if wm does not proc pv, it just is not intuitive
mossy carbon
When did this change? It was absolutely proccing last night on WM and akaari's
wind furnace
somone noticed yesterday and i double checked
mossy carbon
nope, just logged in and it's definitely still proccing
Did one strike, got one stack and then a second later one from akaari
wind furnace
wm procs of akaari procs
was what push asked
basically, if you use shadowstrike and it procs wm
you get only 2 stacks of pv
and not 4 (or 3)
also just logged in, and can confirm that it still does not work on wm procs on both
(Regular WM procs and akaari WM procs)
winged fiber
no backstab during dance please
wind furnace
thats one thing we will do for certain when playing akaari
tight sapphire
mellow urchin
thats one thing we will do for certain when playing akaari
isnt it heavily reliant on 4p procs now
cus if you consider that akaari is delayed by 2 seconds minimum, then you have only 2 more stacks before the 3 second cutoff
shadowstrike (1)-shadowstrike (2)-evis (akaari proc, 3)-shadowstrike (4)-shadowstrike + akaari (6)
even when it worked on WM, i didnt always get 6 stacks before 2 sec cut-off
its kinda wonky to play
definitely making a weakaura that just checks for dance + dance duration remaining, PV stacks and blades
and screams at me if i am at 6 stacks, blades is up and 3+ seconds is remaining
pulsar axle
shadowstrike (1)-shadowstrike (2)-evis (akaari proc, 3)-shadowstrike (4)-shadows...
dont we have a proc of akaari on 4th sec?
wind furnace
you have 6 gcds to potentially use backstab
mellow urchin
before the cut-off
livid ferry
Is it only 6 stacks or 5+? To backstab in dance
wind furnace
also its possible that you have hang over stacks
pulsar axle
i think on 4th sec it is already 5stacks
mellow urchin
ye true
pulsar axle
and also , like fuu said dance -fin-dance
mellow urchin
i think on 4th sec it is already 5stacks
4th sec is the last chance tho
so if its at 5 stacks
you just send stab i guess, but idk, it has been kinda inconsistent when playing with it ingame
i must say that i absolutely hate how it plays
pulsar axle
well, i need to ask this first, do we back stab out of dance with stacks even if we're going to continue next dance?
mellow urchin
yes
wind furnace
lets see how it plays out in the sim:
mellow urchin
you wouldnt go into a dance with 6 stacks and send a backstab as first builder
pulsar axle
ok, that's clear then
wind furnace
you only start dance with low pv stacks
so if you have 5 stacks, you won't
but you could have 2 or 3 stacks and you would
mellow urchin
lets see how it plays out in the sim:
this does not seem reasonable or? how is it getting enough stacks for that stab, 1 shadowstrike + 1 proc
wind furnace
seems like lucky with 4p procs?
mellow urchin
i mean
wind furnace
wait, letme sim with the fixes from yesterday as this is pre
also opener starts with higher stacks
as you strike-snd
wind furnace
thats why i am happy that we use it only with shadowblades
mossy carbon
Goes against the whole design of the spec and the tier
pulsar axle
4th sec is the last chance tho
no, we started with 1, so 5th should be the last chance? i mean strk, strk, evi, strk, stab, evi, strk, strk, 3 moves after the stab
mellow urchin
no, we started with 1, so 5th should be the last chance? i mean strk, strk, evi,...
well when you have spent 4 gcds
the 5th has to be the stab
wind furnace
i mean i agree, it feels weird but i think its one change that impacts gameplay
mellow urchin
so if you dont have enough stacks by the 4th gcd you cant stab on the 5th
wind furnace
but all of the 9.2 gameplay changes feel weird 😛
pulsar axle
yea, no stack no stab, but if it is starting from 0 and naturally we stab at 5th
pulsar axle
ptr or ?
mellow urchin
yes
pulsar axle
not on ptr
wind furnace
kyrian: just send dance on cd --- feels weird if you are used to strategically line it up with cooldowns
PV: use backstab during dance --- feels weird esp. given that the stack count is designed to never have it used during dance
pulsar axle
ok, but are we supposed to have or ?
mellow urchin
it depends on akaari
i think
its not very consistent from the times ive played it
sometimes you have way too many stacks
sometimes you starve
akaari is a wonky piece of shit
pulsar axle
ok, then akaari is shit if not stable for the ptr at the moment.
well
let me edit it
mellow urchin
the proc has 2 sec ICD or something right
wind furnace
mellow urchin
pulsar axle
lul
mellow urchin
is this sim procing every single first eviscerate or what
wind furnace
and backstabs on 2nd gcd
mellow urchin
subtle shale
:yep:
pulsar axle
i think it proc'd somewhere otherwise it is 4 stack
mellow urchin
its not gonna stab on a 4th stack
pulsar axle
i know
wind furnace
it only stabs on 5+
pulsar axle
ER evi proc'd
mellow urchin
but the sim seems to be always procing the first one :))
wind furnace
dps variance
mellow urchin
ye i know
wind furnace
its still funny, you are right
mellow urchin
Akaari stronge
subtle shale
A little bit off topic but is there sims with full 285 gear
subtle shale
Ah nvm 
pulsar axle
have they finalised the loot list?
mellow urchin
who knows
the trinkets are still insane
so i assume those gonna get dialed back
i will eat a sock if these trinkets still have 1000 secondary stats passively
by the time of release
pulsar axle
it becomes an interesting thing as we are using some 259 dagger and 4p so the only thing we're actually interested in are trinkets
subtle shale
Have not fully woken up yet and reading about backstab in dance is bit a of suprise
wind furnace
i hope i didn't forget to change one item in itemlevel
but i basically just made all items 278
still not a reasonable thing to do, but well
(also i did it relative to necrolord to showcase how... not great it is)
subtle shale
Holy fuck it's bad
livid ferry
278 sylv daggers 😛
wind furnace
yes
subtle shale
You can force ilvl in raidbots advanced right?
subtle shale
Imagine titanforged sylv daggers:yep:
mellow urchin
theres honestly 0 reason to play venthyr
i'd rather play night fae if it ever came to that
wind furnace
venthyr will beat kyrian in funnel, cleave and prio damage
mellow urchin
idk
its quite bad
outside of that 1 intermission
anduin has quite a bit of downtime
not being able to finish or take advantage of the flag stacks
seems kinda bad
subtle shale
Can't remember but does anduin not take extra dam in the intermission phases?
wind furnace
need to see fight timers to know exactly
but kyiran with finality is not terrible in funnel
mellow urchin
Can't remember but does anduin not take extra dam in the intermission phases?
not anymore
but you do extra dmg instead
they just flipped it
subtle shale
Aight
mellow urchin
instead of a debuff on the guy, its a buff on you
subtle shale
Same idea still
mellow urchin
sort of ye
subtle shale
Easier till adds
winged fiber
i didn't find any instances
of not being able to get value out of flag
on anduin testing
or any testing tbh
works fine for pretty much every boss
subtle shale
I liked it on artificer
winged fiber
is a few bosses with funnel or cleave where it feels really nice on
subtle shale
I guess I'm just huffing copium cause I don't know where to put an extra keybind for backstab
mellow urchin
you can play venthyr if you want
wind furnace
/cast [bonusbar:1]backstab;echoing
mellow urchin
but its more rng and has less potential dmg if played optimally
wind furnace
👏 bar space solved
subtle shale
:yep:
wind furnace
but its more rng and has less potential dmg if played optimally
will you change on a per fight base or stick with kyrian?
wind furnace
tbh i think it rly comes down to the fight.
Assassination is e.g. better than subtlety on the nine yet the fight is early enough in the tier that people cba switching
winged fiber
you couldn't swap covenants for prog though
which was a big factor
necro sin is a huge difference for cleave compared to venth sub or venth sin
wind furnace
yes, but tuning will be relevant
earlier fights in the are usually tuned fairly low, what makes spec choice often less relevant
mellow urchin
will you change on a per fight base or stick with kyrian?
will swap ofc
winged fiber
that is true
i def think necro sin is giga for a few small density cleave bosses progwise tho
especially the council fight
it's absolutely insane there
wind furnace
assassination rly outshines in sustained cleave, so ofc you would play it on fights with that
winged fiber
i'm hoping last bosses have giga funnel
make sub busted af please
is real nice for anduin tbh
mellow urchin
especially the council fight
when they are stacked at 4 in the end
how is assa that has a ST 4p, meant to compete with sub 4p strike + bp spam
even with bonespike
the dot ticks for like 700 every 2.5 seconds or some shit
winged fiber
cuz sub 4t isn't that great
mellow urchin
its probably better than assa with the tier set
winged fiber
and having bleeds / bonespike with sin tier is nuts
it wasn't even close in our testing
winged fiber
it is a small sample size but
mellow urchin
idk who you tested with
mellow urchin
and it was before bug fixes right
winged fiber
oh then nvm
mellow urchin
sub should have close to perma blades with constant 4t
which means 5 cps every storm
wind furnace
you can sim it, but would potentially say to use PE instead of PV if you do priority_rotation=1
winged fiber
a majority of the fight is 2t
mellow urchin
i mean you are judging this based on ptr and what i assume is heroic
mellow urchin
i doubt you reached mythic last phase
winged fiber
it was yea but we got past the bug
well it was bugged to kill you
but we got past that by doing the ads in p1 instead of skipping
mellow urchin
i mean you also said sub was trash on sylvanas from your own testing, and we all know that wasnt/isnt true
so i'll wait for some actual prog on that fight before thinking about playing assa necrolord
especially if the adds are of any importance
mellow urchin
you did
mellow urchin
idk if it is
wind furnace
i think assassinaiton has priority_rotation=1 too
tepid prawn
It doesn't do much though, because the spec plays the same in priority rotation as well
wind furnace
you won't spread bleeds to the same degree with it iirc
tepid prawn
Bleeds on second targets, slam everything on main target :p
Yeh, true
Just up to saturation
So 3+ targets would be different true true
wind furnace
for subtlety, if you use pv, you need to put these in as i haven't pushed them to simc yet
thats why its probably better to just change pv to pe
i think we are past that push
i remember having quite some talks about it early bfa with a lot of suprise pikachu faces in #assassination
but just like with a lot of things it becomes common knowlage
winged fiber
might be cuz they not grouped
i hate doing that
spread ct on half of them run to other half dot them up too
wind furnace
just out of curiosity, is anyone using a weakaura to track ct to know when you need to use it for refreshing dots
winged fiber
yuh
mellow urchin
might be cuz they not grouped
could be
mossy carbon
just out of curiosity, is anyone using a weakaura to track ct to know when you n...
Just a timer for CT?
wind furnace
no
basically a wekaura that keeps track of enemies around you and tells you when you need to use ct for dot refreshes
don't think there is a api restriction to disallow that
but it requires a lot more effort than simply tracking the duration of the dots on the nameplate or on a timer
the idea would be to reduce effort and allow the player to concentrate on something else
winged fiber
oh
no i just go off the timer on my main target and if it's like spread cleave i have nameplate trackers for the off targets
incase i'm using two ct's to dot up differen't groups of mobs
wind furnace
i haven't played the spec enough to know how obvious it is to do
winged fiber
it's pretty easy
wind furnace
i overestimated the impact then i guess, as it would potentially be one thing i would do if i would play it in m+ a lot
mellow urchin
CT kinda broken
nova nexus
idk if other specs just aren’t pusblishing their 9.2 stuff since I can’t find anything in peak of serenity. j funk losing his shit on twitter over how bad WW ST dps is in 9.2 vs Enhance…
apparently that’s 28% behind enhance.
nova nexus
WW ST is higher than Sub or Assa?!?
wind furnace
idk if other specs just aren’t pusblishing their 9.2 stuff since I can’t find an...
this doesen't rly say a lot
13.4k ww seems ahead of 13.1k sub
😛
nova nexus
that’s my point