if that wasn’t clear.
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
nova nexus
mellow urchin
it is now
being devils advocate about this set
tier sets are meant to change up the gameplay
mossy carbon
I'm also frustrated with it, especially because this was instantly raised day one by people testing it
livid ferry
Does something have to alter gameplay to be fun?
mellow urchin
if a tier set simply amps your current best way to play the game, it has failed
well thats the entire point of a tier set
its meant to change how you play, even if for just 1 raid
mossy carbon
Does something have to alter gameplay to be fun?
I mean why not just have domination shards then
livid ferry
That can be done without shit effects
I would
Take chaos bane
Over this set
1000%
nova nexus
are we all of the sudden taking different talents?
different covenant?
nope, we're just adding a 2nd lego like every other spec
mellow urchin
yea it can, i am just saying that the idea was probably to put a lot of rng into the sub spec, see how ppl interact with it. If its trash at the end of 9.2.5, then never make it again
mossy carbon
are we all of the sudden taking different talents?
The potential for backstab in dance is, to me at least, an interesting change even though it feels degen and I don't like it
livid ferry
Sounds like some dog gameplay
Backstab in dance is like the last thing i wanna do
Most unintuitive shit ever
mellow urchin
i really just need to find a good keybind for it
mossy carbon
I don't want to do it either, but it's different, that's the point
nova nexus
sounds like they didnt realize what the other borrowed powers did before thinking it all the way through
livid ferry
yea it can, i am just saying that the idea was probably to put a lot of rng into...
You know you can just use player feedback
Don’t need to have an entire test patch
For something veterans of the spec are telling you is ass
mellow urchin
yes but sometimes players just want to be strong and keep doing what they are doing cus change is annoying and difficult
sometimes they need someone to just say fuck you, you will be a casino next tier
vestal sedge
i mean, if you dont like the specc, just play another. idk why ppl have to hate on something that much for days/weeks etc. annoying af
mellow urchin
you dont know anything about game dev
livid ferry
Why are you shoving not fun down your players throat
mossy carbon
i really just need to find a good keybind for it
I have shuriken storm on 1 and backstab on 2, I tried to put shuriken somewhere else and backstab on 1 and it felt aids, so I'm keeping the bs/ss macro and doing a modifier keybind for bs in dance
nova nexus
assa tier set changes the gameplay while keeping it rather true to the spec
mellow urchin
it does
nova nexus
just bind backstab to ER
mellow urchin
what if someone thinks its fun
livid ferry
Is fucking trash
nova nexus
what if someone thinks its fun
if it's powerful, it'll be called fun
mellow urchin
well thats the point
ur not a game dev having to make decisions that impacts thousands of players
tardy oracle
Things that are fun but don't do damage, are not very fun for a lot of people.
mossy carbon
There absolutely are lots of people that will find this fun, you just will probably never hear from them because they're unlikely to participate in public forums re wow
tardy oracle
Pressing SCK 10times in a row and doing 150k dps in a 5pack, is very fun apparently.
mellow urchin
yea doing very boring actions can be fun because BIG NUMBER
many different kinds of fun
tardy oracle
Sadly doing fun actions can be frustrating when they just dont do damage
Working your ass off in a difficult rotation and with tough decisionmaking, just doesn't really feel very enjoyable when the results just arent competitive
nova nexus
the asian playerbase that are gigachads on outlaw will love this
mellow urchin
yea and playing some giga rng build that you cant really feel when ur being lucky, aka sub in next tier, its just not fun
you dont really feel the extra shadowblades
tardy oracle
Psure itll get outlawed (pun intended) cause gambling is illegal in china
tardy oracle
Just cant select the spec anymore once you get 2pc
nova nexus
oof
mossy carbon
Just cant select the spec anymore once you get 2pc
They played outlaw in bfa, I think they're safe
nova nexus
only way I felt I had Shb proc was seeing the annoying animation
mellow urchin
ppl had some conspiracy theories about them back then too
that they get guaranteed RTB rolls
and shi
wind furnace
Seli is correct, there is always a correlation to power level with fun
mellow urchin
thank you for clarifying
livid ferry
Except you can tune something that is fun to be powerful
wind furnace
XD
livid ferry
I’d rather have something be fun but do zdps on ptr
Bcuz it can just be tuned to do damage
mellow urchin
livid ferry
This set is at its core awful
mellow urchin
you wouldnt play something "fun" that was trash dps
you wouldnt
stop lying to yourself
wind furnace
i think dfa did fall into the category to be fun even if tuning is not in its favour
livid ferry
You can cope with any amount of “the average player will love it”
PUSH
IM SAYING
IT CAN BE TUNED
TO BE GOOD
mossy carbon
I'd rather have something powerful but not fun because I know they're unlikely to ever touch it to make it powerful
mellow urchin
but it often isnt
nova nexus
this tier set on sub is the equivalent of deathspike - just bad
tardy oracle
Idk Push, I tried very hard to make Assa work in situations where it was decried as bad and unplayable, simply because I enjoyed playing it so much, and ultimately found ways to make it viable
wind furnace
e.g. subtlety in atbt was gameplay wise still fun, but you could argue that the bursty nature of dfa also was tuned higher than normal stuff
tardy oracle
But yeah, for the most part, if something performs bad, you dont play it. Its why I didnt play Assa in CN and why I don't play it in m+ either
A lot of people switch off of smth that's perceived as being bad before even checking if it actually is, though.
wind furnace
only early cn tho
mellow urchin
ehh
all of prog
for most of us talking atm
assa became good in farm
when it didnt matter
tardy oracle
I played Assa on Deny, and was the first one to do so I think
wind furnace
it def. didn't matter for the high wrs but for the guilds that spend more time progressing it might
wind furnace
best assa rogue world 
tardy oracle
I got memed hard for it in my guild
mossy carbon
I'm still the only rogue to kill uu'nat as outlaw smh
tardy oracle
And honestly, I understand why people are worried about smth underperforming, regardless of the fun-factor
wind furnace
did you play with the nerfed sub tier already on ptr seli?
nova nexus
spec playrate gonna be interesting if the 2L stays at week 3 mythic
mellow urchin
cant wait for ppl to copy wf guilds
only to realize they had to consider 1 legendary specs
and fuck up massively
nova nexus
watch them have to add a 9.2 and a 9.2a log section to autp seperate 2L
mellow urchin
just like how every single lower tier guild is stacking holy paladins and discs even tho its main value shows itself during early prog where you are in danger of getting 1 shot by mechanics
vestal geyser
- dps
wind furnace
to be fair, thats the usual thing in games
people will always try to copy strtegies
*strategies
mellow urchin
ye and its perfectly fine
to copy
but it wont make you understand the game better or improve
vestal geyser
I mean it can
steel meadow
many people dont give a single fuck about improving in video game
nova nexus
copy pasting without seeking understanding isnt going to make you improve magically
vestal geyser
But also, some people just might not want/have the time to look at the reasons behind why it’s good
Who cares about understanding exactly why certain classes are good when just using them makes it easier to kill a boss
wind furnace
people will try to go the path of lowest resistance, this is why they copy comp and strategy
mellow urchin
Who cares about understanding exactly why certain classes are good when just usi...
because this isnt true
using a rwf comp to kill a boss doesnt mean its easier
you might put bobby 1hand on playing disc
and he doesnt know wtf he's doing
for the sake of comp
wind furnace
i think it isn't obvious stated anywhere why a certain comp/strtegy would be betetr/faster
nova nexus
using a Liquid strat from rwf duing rank 1000 prog not going to go well
mellow urchin
"oh lets run 5 venthyr boomies" - 1k ranked guild
4/5 of those vnethyr boomies fuck up their cds on like every 2nd pull
wind furnace
i assume a lot of ppl would not copy comp + strategy if they know for sure they have it a lot easier with a diffrent one
mellow urchin
nice
i dont even wanna know how many pulls guilds that forced their tanks to play prot paladin lost cus of the prot paladin being trash at the most punishing tank in the game
wind furnace
lol
vestal geyser
It’s definitely better to understand why something is useful. But if some random raid has a healing comp with no disc priest, and then swaps one of their healers for someone who can play disc priest, they’re not gonna have to understand exactly why disc is so good for it to give them a marginally better chance to kill that boss
wind furnace
okay, so symbols of death critical strike buff gets consumed by 4p proc
but all of the strikes from the proc get symbols crit
crisp lichen
using a rwf comp to kill a boss doesnt mean its easier
using rwf comps is most of the time actually not even the play
mellow urchin
It’s definitely better to understand why something is useful. But if some random...
that this guy can play disc
vestal geyser
LOL
round orbit
but all of the strikes from the proc get symbols crit
POG
mellow urchin
using rwf comps is most of the time actually not even the play
are you saying they are wrong
round orbit
set is saved, someone tell DK
mellow urchin
crisp lichen
are you saying they are wrong
no just choosing based on lower gear etc
wind furnace
need to double check premed next
will be equally as funny as checking this
(took me half a hour or so to get the proc)
wind furnace
i did check premed on aoe
mellow urchin
ah
wind furnace
and it didn't get consumed
mellow urchin
yea
wind furnace
but i didn't log, so unsure if you get cp
possible that it just doesen't consume
but thats a lot easier to check
(the annoying part is to get a 4p proc during premed, as its only 2 secs)
left storm
what changed how come the sims are even lower now?
round orbit
tier set got adjusted
left storm
oh disregard that question single legendary
round orbit
and that
left storm
Nah yeah I knew it got adjusted but I went to check the updated sim and didnt see the single legendary portion..not enough coffee yet.
mellow urchin
@wind furnace idk if you have simmed this yet
but i might have some degen priority dmg things for the set
and i think it can make kyrian better
for prio dmg
wind furnace
what would that be?
buoyant gyro
😮
mellow urchin
backstabbing ur prio target
in aoe
playing pv
akaari
and kyrian
with akaari you are getting like 11 stacks of pv
from one 4p proc
and with RC kyrian, you can actually stab into finisher a lot of the times
so you dont lose as much from the loss of shuriken storm 6 cp
wind furnace
i did a lot of pv testing, but need to double check
good point tho
meanwhile, it seems like 4p gets empowered by prmed
but didn't consume it
vestal geyser
wind furnace
but need to test more as i am not sure if a strike follow up gets the premed benefits
seems like it won't
but could be just bc. i was to slow
mellow urchin
i tested some premed on aoe rn
and it does consume the buff
and works
it gives snd
but you have to get a proc in dance
which is not always the case
wind furnace
it does not consume the buff but a follow up strike does not seem to proc premed
it requires some luck to get a proc on the first global in dance tho
mellow urchin
it doesnt have to be the first global
wind furnace
to get a follow up strike into the window you need to
mellow urchin
as long as the 4p procs during the 8 seconds of dance you get the snd extension
ah yea
wind furnace
thats my experience as well, it seems like you get the beenfits only once even if the buff stays up
mellow urchin
yea
wind furnace
i did combatlog it and gave koji the log to double check
tbh symbols generating a crit on each strike from 4p is funny
nova nexus
for what it’s worth, tier set pieces in vault m+ slot testing. https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/the-chance-of-getting-tier-from-the-great-vault-on-9-2-ptr-observations-and-325858
neat dagger
fuu can u sim for m+?
wind furnace
i can, but i don't have optimized profiles for it on hand
NS for is quite strong (only on venthyr tho)
(2 legendary powers, PE instead of PV, tornado)
shut valve
is NS not buffing BP fixed on 9.2?
wind furnace
don't think anything changed for that
dire perch
is NS not buffing BP fixed on 9.2?
I tested, no fix =(
wind furnace
tl;dr: pins are updated
hoary zephyr
Tldr casino Royale, Seli rank 1 sire as sin, push and dk depression, RWF comps kekw and fun vs powerful factor
And tisumi bringing up outlaw
Ban him
wind furnace
notable discoveries:
- all apl changes are still damage wins
- symbols and premed get consumed by 4p proc
-- if symbols is consumed, every strike of the 4p critical hits
-- premed buff gets consumed but stays up visually (pmuch irrelevant)
nova nexus
And tisumi bringing up outlaw
no. we love Tisu
clear zephyr
Do you think in aoe we would black powder or use finisher following symbols now
Or chance too low to warrant that
wind furnace
it might make sense to use symbols-finisher instead of symbols-builder
hard to say without doing a simulation
shut valve
symbols finisher for sure
acoustic cobalt
Is there any place to look at all the currently simmed DPS on the PTR across multiple classes/specs? Something like approximate avgs or anything along those lines?
wind furnace
there are some 9.2 spreadsheets but dps between classes is farly bad balanced atm
also every class uses diffrent baselines, so even those comparisons are not always fair
acoustic cobalt
Ah I see. Bummer. Thanks
wind furnace
there is a 9.2 kindred spreadsheet in #subtlety-faq but it likely wasn't re-run with all the changes that happened this reset
but to emphasize this, it usualy does not rly make a lot of sense to compare cross class before things are somewhat balanced/finished
acoustic cobalt
Sure, just wanted to get a sense of which classes are grossly OP on PTR right now
Taking this all with a grain of salt
wind furnace
you just need to tune into some ptr streamers
they tent to talk about whats op, also the communities often meme about it
e.g. survival hunter was quite op for a while and even had its own place in a "tier set tier list" by a popular streamer
left storm
I think ret was actually doing pretty well might be something to look into
based off of some of the screen shots posted of overall dps in dungeons once the set bugs were fixed
wind furnace
yesterdays patch had quite some changes, so i am unsure what class got noticeable better/worse with those
acoustic cobalt
Yeah I saw some of those. Unfortunately work prevents me from tuning in to most streams.
There was an air of doom and gloom in the sub disc so I kinda wanted to try and get an easy to digest “big picture” of the current PTR state
wind furnace
you can usually discuss it in #wow-general we have many players with some expertise in other classes
acoustic cobalt
Sounds good. Thanks!
nova nexus
@acoustic cobalt for raid a lot will depend on the fights and if you plan on clearing with 1L vs 2L
enhance is popping right now on ST
acoustic cobalt
I’m more interested in m+ tbh. For raid I’ll just swap to the better performing rogue spec. I just really like the sub gameplay in keys and really not wanting to swap
left storm
I would watch JPC then
he does keys and stuff on the PTR and could give you an idea of where rogue is at and probably other classes/specs
wind furnace
subtlety won't become bad suddenly
acoustic cobalt
I have been somewhat, he seems optimistic on the spec. But gotta turn to the big brains here for the numbers
wind furnace
so for m+ at least it seems a strong choice in 9.2
left storm
I dont see sub all of a sudden falling off in M+
acoustic cobalt
Cool reassuring to hear. Thanks guys
livid ferry
i ... don't hate the backstab in SS
nova nexus
how about backstab in priority based target damage?
mellow urchin
talked about that earlier
it looks quite nuts with akaari
from one 4p proc you first get like 6 PV stacks ye
then akaari hits 2 seconds later
for another 6 PV stacks
so you get almost back to back PV juice
nova nexus
yeah that what I noticed on the target dummies
can someone get me the backstab sound from vanilla
winged fiber
nova nexus
make that my pv wa alert and mentally I can be in a better place.
winged fiber
true
ocean ridge
with all the CP we get in 9.2 wouldnt it be easier to stack flag?
livid ferry
was there any difficulty stacking flag anyway?
(geniune question, im not a sub expert)
ocean ridge
i dunno i always liked kyrian
nova nexus
have fun ever getting low empowered cps in any multi target
nova nexus
was there any difficulty stacking flag anyway?
no. there’s zero issues on live, ptr is easier
livid ferry
even sin kinda feels bad in multi now that your dot ticks faster on one target and normal on the other
livid ferry
no. there’s zero issues on live, ptr is easier
yee thats what i thought
nova nexus
your dots are always at different timers on multi target as assa. nothing changes there
livid ferry
theres more variance
nova nexus
what?
livid ferry
nothing : D
nova nexus
explain.
i know assa is big brain multi target but how is there more variance with the same dot being applied.
i legit don’t understand
wind furnace
i will look into prio_rotation with pv tomorrow and see what i find
south osprey
Without 4pc you can dot up all and then redot all again. There is like no variance at all if you don't 3cp rup one and the next 5cp
livid ferry
i legit don’t understand
variance definitely wasn't the word i was looking for
i was just refering to managing things just being a bit more tricky, esp for garrote if you're not paying attention
nova nexus
plate spinning spec gonna plate spin
but isn’t that what people who play it in aoe and m+ like?
livid ferry
yeah you just have to be even mooore careful now
because not having an garrote ticking on your vendetta is cringe
vendetta target*
if you use it somewhere else and its on cd
only for a few seconds, but still cringe
nova nexus
notable discoveries:
- all apl changes are still damage wins
- symbols and preme...
what time length of snd was this putting up with premed and the 4pc?
wind furnace
its just one regular premed proc
delicate osprey
yep 10 secs
wind furnace
only thing that is buggy is the visuals
delicate osprey
the funny one is doing SoD finisher
wind furnace
i did combatlog it yesterday and had a look at the log with koji
delicate osprey
and watching all the shadowstrikes blast crits
idk if that is intended btw
but seems a lil optimization ahaha
wind furnace
tbh i think its a interessting interaction
and given the random nature of the proc, i don't think it matters
delicate osprey
maybe not on st but i can see the meaning in aoe
wait was 4p target capped i dont remember and im not in the game rn
maybe it was 5 targets
wind furnace
up to 5 targets
nova nexus
its just one regular premed proc
ok thanks. just wanted to be sure I wasn’t missing anything and you were getting a 50 second snd or something.
wind furnace
only fun interaction is the 5 ctitical strikes one i found of 5 targets
wind furnace
looked into Backstabbing on higher target counts
it seems like there is potentially some gain in doing it, need to check when exactly
biggest gain seems to be from using it during dance + blades
outside of dance is ignorable in impact
wind furnace
yes
naming is not very discribing
but basically the top result has both changes, and the 2nd result only has the change to use bs during dance + shb
the .22% diffrence is lower on lower PV ranks, so using bs for stacks outside of dance is actually fairly low in impact
mellow urchin
What is new new
wind furnace
NEW NEW = both backstab in dance + backstab out of dance
NEW NEW - NEW = only backstab in dance
NEW = backstab out of dance
new 2 = test to see if backstabing outside of dance is better under more strict conditions
south osprey
NEEWW and NEEEWWW
wind furnace
haha, ye naming was kinda bad ^^
so basically a 30% loss in aoe for a 52% gain in prio damage
mellow urchin
Whats venthyr at
mellow urchin
Yea you get way more pv stacks
wind furnace
lets see
delicate osprey
as expected we may even play aakari in m+ for the job we are expected to do hmm
wind furnace
idk hacha, but lets compare akaaris to finality
given that finality offers stronger funnel iirc
delicate osprey
well it is more of a boss vs overall but it will also maybe depend heavily on dungeon
it is not like finality is worse on cleave the other way around rupture gains power
wind furnace
finality iirc starts winning at around 3-4 targets
so low target cleave prio damage you want akaari or single target
everything else finality
delicate osprey
i mean for me it will be 100% as my gearing dictates kek
i wonder which stats tier ends up with
wind furnace
akaari is rly relevant in st, as the diffrence in output is quite noticable
delicate osprey
and also LUL it seems i will be wearing this tier's boe wrists for the remaining of the exp
delicate osprey
also depends too on relic things too
wind furnace
kyrian even more
delicate osprey
we may even play dust if the cdr thingy is confirmed to be quite busted
getting double flag in 1 min is kind of spicy
delicate osprey
i havent tried keys in ptr but if it also affects stiletto and obe it might be cool to play with
wind furnace
9.2 will be a wild time in general with NS in m+
nova nexus
mentally I’m still struggling with the idea that you’ll ever fully use ER in multiple target scenarios with everything else randomly going off. ST, sure. Multiple/Prio just seems like flag is the way.
mellow urchin
9.2 will be a wild time in general with NS in m+
NS doesnt work tho
It can sim 2000+ dps and it still doesn’t work
wind furnace
probably
mellow urchin
It’s a shame
wind furnace
obv. that its more damage with NS ^^
but kyrian and venthyr did sim fairly similar in overall output in dslice for me
unsure if NS is just sth to get used to
would need to test it in actual m+
prime rune
hi @wind furnace once u have free time, can u try gloomblade /w rotten and try to write condition /w dance 6x SS after dance pop symbol -- gloomblade -- evis - and next dance, u can sim way more and see bigger numbers i guess but i dont know how to write it down
in ptr i did alot of try and every symbol after glooming was min 30k glooming was my like 2. top dps, i wanna sim it but i cant find way how to do it
nova nexus
do you have a log of what you tested?
wind furnace
it is not incorrect
rotten buff is quite strong, but playing specifically around it seems fairly hard
the idea would be to get symbols crit + rotten buff + 6 stacks pv. But unsure if thats easy to create natural without losing damage somewhere else
also you would sacrifice shadowstrike casts for it
delicate osprey
i have tried ns and it not super horrible with venthyr
as kyrian i can see it being super oof tho
omega anti sinergy
delicate osprey
ye they only need to fix the bp and flag not working right
wind furnace
that would make it even better
wind furnace
ns is even with current implementation better
delicate osprey
hope the jailer trinket gives nucko buffs like cdr or extra stats
or maybe slam my head with -50% hp
corruption style
mossy carbon
it's up on ptr version of wowhead, you can search "the first rune", "the second rune", "the third rune", "the fourth rune" and "the final rune" to read the buffs
delicate osprey
ok going
delicate osprey
fuck the rune seems to kind of murder you on the second to last one
the move speed slow
and of course the fourth is the mastery one discrimination
and first one haste, blizz loves haste for everyone
nova nexus
well when you’re not gcd locked at 1sec haste is very noticeable
ez feels
mastery last to help boomkins kill themselves faster.
delicate osprey
last one to help with 10k dmg to the healers
will be funny if everyone uses theirs on pull
nova nexus
i’m more interested in the chain trinket
delicate osprey
it has such a long cd tho
delicate osprey
although i wonder if you can use jailer trinket pre combat
nova nexus
if it’s a fart in the wind fuck it
prime rune
i will do a log and show here, well its so odd to play, its completely diff playstyle rather then SS
wind furnace
i trust you that stacking up those cooldowns works and that the gloomblade proc does produce good output
nova nexus
i’m curious to see what the rotation looked like that they tested. not a trust thing. 😊
wind furnace
but i will need to spend some time fiddeling witht he apl to test it, so can't predict if it is a strong win practical
also the problem with gloomblade is straight up the loss of weaponmaster
wind furnace
no, thats priority damage in 6 target
pulsar axle
Okay. in st we use stab with 6stacks?
wind furnace
yes
wind furnace
you use backstab between dances basically
prime rune
u wanna pop dance when symbol was on 8 sec CD
1 sec coming
not so familier with logs
well i did mistakes but just to give main idea generally
nova nexus
pumping
prime rune
well its more then 100 hour of dummy test between all possbilities and i liked it most, wanted to share
pulsar axle
what's the status of tier and leggo?
nova nexus
i enjoy stepping out of the assumed setups.
prime rune
rotten lament, if its what u asking
nova nexus
you liked the game loop the best, or the results?
prime rune
4p
pulsar axle
but in log there is no 4p Strike?
mossy carbon
wind furnace
dps on the log seem fairly low, interesstingly enough
mossy carbon
that's a 4p proc I think
pulsar axle
but in the table there is no display..
prime rune
yea its 4p
pulsar axle
okay, great, thanks
hoary zephyr
this is the pic fuu i fight 6.25 min
@pale jetty
mellow urchin
but in the table there is no display..
they changed it
4p shadowstrikes just gets added to regular shadowstrike casts
there is no way to see if it procs unless you go into events or casts
nova nexus
hide the rng 
mellow urchin
ye
but this log has really low dps
im not sure what you're doing
but its like
nova nexus
obviously they know it can feel like shit
mellow urchin
2500 dps
wind furnace
i think we discussed the idea of abusing the legendary power for pv a while ago
unsure if i did any sims, but i think it still is a interesting direction to explore
mellow urchin
you but you can do that without using gloomblade
prime rune
well i havent played well but the syncrone i wanted to show
gloomblade with blade, so good
wind furnace
yes push, thats my main idea
esp. with how kyrian is now "on cd" dance use
we might be able to rotate dance a bit
if its backstab or gloomblade does not rly matter
gloomblade just brings higher numbers given that it works with deeper dagger
nova nexus
maybe more controlled dmg over wm idk
prime rune
they nerfed it, in the first days i was hitting 45k
prime rune
well i test since the first day of 9.2 ptr around 100 hour i guess and this is by far best i could combine
no no i just try to therorycraft of playstyle
havent think any of them yet or midmax
mellow urchin
but man
how is ur top dmg spell only doing 500 dps, thats what i am mostly curious about
wind furnace
the problem with going gloomblade is rly the damage loss you get from it
mellow urchin
there is something wrong with this log
prime rune
it can be
wind furnace
ye agree, something seems fucked up
wind furnace
maybe its because he didn't use advanced logging
nova nexus
which dummy are you hitting?
prime rune
i will show sec
mellow urchin
is it a pvp dummy?
prime rune
i dont have sylvanas dagger i used 2x pvp dagger
do u wanna come ptr push?
lemme show u
i dont know how to take proper log as advanced tho
nova nexus
open up system options and network. there’s a tick box for advanced logging
wind furnace
problem with gloomblade is rly the question if it manages to gap this:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pjhz2r1yMAHU5Xf9g3iEZC
prime rune
sim doesnt work that way i do way more then that overall even in 6.30 min
i think the sequence is diffirent, thats what i wanted to ask u fuu
can u write diff play style at sim
wind furnace
the sim i linked is just the baseline diffrence
and ye, i will look at rotten gameplay when i have a bit more time on hand, but need to go afk in 30 mins so won't do it now
prime rune
i think at sim, it doesnt hit with 6x pv pop symbol and gloomblade, did u see it?
ok bro
wind furnace
my point is just that the talent is fairly far behind
this means even if gloomblade damage gets higher, it probably won't mean that it beats weaponmaster
prime rune
yea thats one of my questions also
nova nexus
NS GB Rotten time!
wind furnace
Venthyr has rotten fairly close to akaari
nova nexus
forget the evis crits, we’re here for GB crits
wind furnace
but i don't think the rotation of venthyr is elastic enough to allow some of those shananigans
kyrian is the covenant i could see benefiting the most from rotten optimizations
but rotten is 3% behind on kyrian
prime rune
push at orgrimmar dummy 4p set hit to next dummy also 😄
prime rune
ok ty
mellow urchin
prime rune
got u there 🙂
unkempt peak
Right now nighfae assassination is simming a little better than everything but kyrian subtlety right?
lapis wasp
what leggo combo/covenant seems like the best option right now for 9.2?
nova nexus
will depend on the fights and final tuning. venthyr & kyrian both good in sims
it’s all in the pins in this thread to help you formulate an opinion.
lapis wasp
cool thanks
never played with echoing reprimand... but if it animicharges your 2nd combo point, for example, then you basically are finishing at 2 for every ab ility for the next 45 seconds, while getting the value of 7 cp's?
lapis wasp
oh okay that makes way more sense, i was like this cant be right lol
mellow urchin
every time
lapis wasp
oh so the leggo means you get 4 finishers that are powered basically?
instead of just 1
mellow urchin
y
flint canyon
these 40k boomblade crits are dousing me in feel good brain chemicals
nova nexus
pvpers are gonna have fun with this
prime rune
its not that easy to do it, i mean u waste alot of CD for it and target need to give u some time but yea 44k is not normal
i will record YT video tomarrow 😄
mellow urchin
pvpers are gonna have fun with this
they did in 9.0
and then it got yeeted
my fucking side mouse buttons arent working
REEE
nova nexus
yeah i kinda remember that
nova nexus
oh no
mellow urchin
nova nexus
gloomblade so strong it bricks mice
lapis wasp
is there some sorta nameplate configuration that can allow me to know if something is sooth-able - haven't played a soothe class until now
robust lotus
there is a tickbox in plater
that allows you to sort by buffs you can remove yourself
like enrage, magic effect with belf racial etc
pale jetty
<@!166309198966161408>
8k average too, thing is cracked
But also this build is hella old
buoyant gyro
i think at sim, it doesnt hit with 6x pv pop symbol and gloomblade, did u see it...
This type of thing is good for PvP but that doesn't make it good for sustained DPS. The value of WM as a talent is insane. You're increasing PV stack generation, Shadowstrike damage, free combo points, etc.
Gloomblade has only fallen further and further behind as things get added, not the other way around
WM has too many interactions
prime rune
well its absurdly sustain 😄
robust lotus
at this point 9.2 systems are designed around the best build for the spec
pale jetty
Gloom is not sustain
robust lotus
nothing is going to change now
pale jetty
It's a one pump and dump
buoyant gyro
Gloomblade is never going to do more than "your Backstabs do a bit more damage" and WM scales all kinds of things from PV, CP gen (thus 4pc), 2pc procs (from WM Shadowstrikes), etc.
potent vault
well its absurdly sustain 😄
You’re looking too much at the damage of one ability
Versus the total things WM gives you
One big crit is fun but that doesn’t compare to what WM gives
pale jetty
I mean again, this build has been around for over a year
There's a reason we don't use it
prime rune
u can simply hit with it 5min on dummy very easy, i did test both and gloomblade waas way better then wm for me, but better hit 30k+ every smybol + gloom
nova nexus
I apologize for the nerfs that will inevitably come to EoN. FINALLY
prime rune
u dont use because most probably sim doesnt has that way of script to use
potent vault
My dude
Your script is meant to be a 5% dps increase
Do you know how massive of a change that is
And how unlikely that is
pale jetty
No it's because you can't compare wm strike to gloom... Wm also gives cp
Ofc gloom is going to do more flat damage than a wm proc
You're purposefully maximizing its damage too
prime rune
i dont do anything burn to make that dps btw, its just naturally happen and each symbol gives me 30k+ gloom , instead of hoping proc of WM which gives alot of value at the 1 min of fight, i would rather try gloom. Well i test both talent for very long time in ptr and gloom has diff way of playstyle if u can get used to it , u can do sick thing
buoyant gyro
I mean if you wanna prove out some huge increase to the Gloomblade APL you can give it a shot. It seems unreasonable you'd make up a 5% DPS deficit though.
prime rune
i asked fuu because i dont know how to make it 😦
nova nexus
me being the optimist, has anything changed on the ptr with gloomblade and spell data at all?
buoyant gyro
No
pale jetty
Are there logs comparing the dps? I must've missed if there are
buoyant gyro
There's really no way PTR has done anything other than make Gloomblade worse since WM leads to more 2pc and 4pc contribution
prime rune
btw SS crit max gear is like 7k and non crit 3k
potent vault
Why are you only comparing damage
Between spells
Koji described it like 2 messages ago
buoyant gyro
Yeah, nobody here is saying that Gloomblade damage is bad. We're saying WM does a lot of stuff that is far beyond just the damage.
livid ferry
pale jetty
Is this in 9.1 or 9.2 gear
wind furnace
Again, its possible that there are some damage gains with rotten, and i will look into it if i have more time on hand
prime rune
i play rogue since 15 years same account same rogue 😦 i dont compare only 2 thing, i have been hitting dummy at ptr for around 100 hour and test all possible way of legos and talents and i loved it most thats why i wanted to share 😄 @potent vault
potent vault
The value of WM is outside of just the damage the extra SS gives
Koji described the interactions earlier
buoyant gyro
For example in a 5 minute sim, WM generates over 30 combo points
livid ferry
you're literally looking at details and seeing big gloomblade number
please stop lmao
buoyant gyro
30 combo points is worth... a lot
livid ferry
record a 5 minute log of you playing Wm and a 5 minute log of you playing gloomblade
wind furnace
what i was pointing at when presenting the sim is that the diffrence between the 2 spells is just very big.
So even if there is a small increase in output, it won't be enough to offset that
nova nexus
dont squash the excitement. let fuu do his numbers thing and who knows, maybe it's the play when not standing still for 5 mins with a computer or maybe it's not.
mellow urchin
yall need to calm down
wind furnace
it does not make it wrong tat it could be potentially beneficial to stack damage amps for backstab or gloomblade
mellow urchin
let the man dream
potent vault
Everyone has been civil
nova nexus
everyone too salty from the tier set
prime rune
this dk and rae have u ever done anything beside trash?
mellow urchin
"StOp LoOkInG aT nUmBeR oN dEtAiLs DuDe"
nova nexus
pretty sure that is understood since everyone has been screaming it
potent vault
"StOp LoOkInG aT nUmBeR oN dEtAiLs DuDe"
DK doesn’t count
potent vault
this dk and rae have u ever done anything beside trash?
Done anything besides trash?
mellow urchin
pretty sure its quite obvious the man isnt just looking at the gloomblade crit numbers
pale jetty
Trash talk I assume
nova nexus
anyone else played with rotten on ptr? idk
prime rune
look how gloom sort it out 😄
potent vault
pretty sure its quite obvious the man isnt just looking at the gloomblade crit n...
Yet he compared gloomblade damage vs the crit of a SS
as if WM only offers extra SS damage
pale jetty
anyone else played with rotten on ptr? idk
I can give it an attempt later
prime rune
using symbol crit potential only with Shadowstrike which hit 7k max 😄 its sux 😄
nova nexus
ya'll sound like the assa area where they are just testing whatever whispyr says is best then asking for the opener
potent vault
Ich hasse dich
potent vault
Ich liebe dich
mellow urchin
sure
livid ferry
this is a high lvl troll
mellow urchin
we test things, thats what we do, we dont say "ITS SHIT" without testing
wind furnace
how did we end up with german?
nova nexus
that's how we roll
potent vault
I mean if someone comes up with saying this is so much better
mellow urchin
only idiots say stuff is bad without even testing
potent vault
And is saying this is better than that
pale jetty
Alacrity is bad
livid ferry
push go test out NS DS Sectech build
pliant minnow
how did we end up with german?
sprechen ze dueche mon ami?
nova nexus
if youre just gonna shit on it, just dont
livid ferry
I promise its better than what we have now
mellow urchin
i think the idea is correct, i think rotten could be better than akaari if the apl is adjusted, but gloomblade is likely not the play
potent vault
It’s not like there is anything improving GB
pale jetty
Isn't rotten two charges now or was I dreaming
potent vault
When the tier boosts the value of WM
mellow urchin
its not
pale jetty
Fuck
potent vault
Isn't rotten two charges now or was I dreaming
Dreaming
nova nexus
rotten was already close in the venh sims i believe
pale jetty
Sadge
wind furnace
rotten is one charge
mellow urchin
i am quite sure
wind furnace
rotten is very close
mellow urchin
the apl is using every rotten charge
wind furnace
but only for venthyr
wind furnace
and venthyr has a very rigid rotation, so i am not sure if you can can combine it reasonable with rotten
potent vault
Fuu will not find a 5% dps gain for GB dude
mellow urchin
and you can line up every single symbols to have a 6 stacked stab ready
prime rune
and we can see, maybe better maybe worse
nova nexus
i think you'll need to get off the GB focus and just realize this may change apl for rotten more importantly
nova nexus
or it may not
prime rune
why it didnt worked out?
mellow urchin
it was never tested iirc
buoyant gyro
we test things, thats what we do, we dont say "ITS SHIT" without testing
I mean, I think all I was pointing out is that 5% is a big deficit to make up and seems fairly unlikely. And invited them to prove it out. Just saying "APL/Sims aren't good, it's magic trust me it's better" isn't enough either. So need some numbers and changes that are proven to be a gain realistically. Maybe gains there, maybe not. Changing cooldown sequencing isn't always a gain for multiple reasons.
clear zephyr
Does the rotten consume shadowstrike? Or only backstab
mellow urchin
both
wind furnace
i mean just for reference, the pv optimization(s) where worth 1% max all together
potent vault
Both
mellow urchin
but shadowstrike does trash dmg compared to a pv stab
clear zephyr
Oof that makes gameplay interesting
wind furnace
so it won't reach 5% for sure
clear zephyr
If it was backstab the application of it would be much easier
mellow urchin
shadowstrike is like legit 50% less dmg than a pv stab
if we just stop talking about gb
and instead focus on rotten
pale jetty
it was never tested iirc
It was
mellow urchin
not in APL
mellow urchin
it was tested ingame
pale jetty
I got shunned
buoyant gyro
shadowstrike is like legit 50% less dmg than a pv stab
That may be but on the other hand, with 4pc you'd have to legitimately double The Rotten's contribution for it to beat Akaari right now iirc
pale jetty
But the PvP rats listened to me
mellow urchin
That may be but on the other hand, with 4pc you'd have to legitimately *double* ...
you say that as if its a lot of dps
nova nexus
I got shunned
stop having dumb ideas mmmk? 
prime rune
u want to, dance 3xSS - evis - 2xSS - evis - pop 2x dance pop symbol and hit gloom, thats all with NS and one on use trinket, but i dont know how to do it on sim
buoyant gyro
Rotten is at like 3.4% and Akaari is +2.8% over The Rotten in the last sims Fuu did
mellow urchin
ye
dim mural
livid ferry
oh hes running NS too
mellow urchin
but rotten is also using its dmg on a spell that does half the dmg
pale jetty
stop having dumb ideas mmmk? <:RHlove:876980536546033714>
But my dumb ideas made 9.0 PvP fun and now we're dusty boys 
livid ferry
this is really high tech
buoyant gyro
How do you double the value of The Rotten with a 50% damage difference
buoyant gyro
shadowstrike is like legit 50% less dmg than a pv stab
is what you said
clear zephyr
Think he’s saying we need to look at an apl that only uses the rotten on backstab
mellow urchin
less dmg ye
prime rune
u can try NS but in long term u staarve so i oftenly avoid NS but if u make HC raid where u rape boss in 3m, why not
mellow urchin
but you ahve to double the strike in dmg
buoyant gyro
And some of The Rotten's value is from the combo point gen
buoyant gyro
So to double the total value of The Rotten, you'd literally have to be using it on something well over double damage of a Shadowstrike to even have a chance
buoyant gyro
Just with simple napkin math
mellow urchin
with either spell right
buoyant gyro
That's my point
mellow urchin
the only difference is the dmg
mellow urchin
ofc not?
who would in their right mind think a stab would give MORE cps than a strike
buoyant gyro
So to DOUBLE The Rotten's total value like is being required here
mellow urchin
buoyant gyro
The damage modifier has to be well over double value
mellow urchin
alright
buoyant gyro
That's a very big ask
mellow urchin
alright koji
you win
its shit
lets stop everything
lets not even try
lets just concede
move on
buoyant gyro
I mean this is just simple math is all, not saying it can't be improved. The things you're saying just aren't aligning
clear zephyr
Would the damage bonus to the rotten and PV be additive or multiplicative
prime rune
just feel akward to use such and amazing guarantee crit symbol with Shadowstrike feels me bad :S
wind furnace
backstab can also be increased in value from rotten ^^
pale jetty
Ye I wonder how it would look like with an optimized apl
prime rune
we can even add necrolord plague soulbind fulll %dps boost
pale jetty
But we're comparing rotten to akaari right
plucky storm
sub about to gain at least 2, maybe even 3 hundred thousand dps
clear zephyr
But we're comparing rotten to akaari right
Yes
pale jetty
That's rough
prime rune
yes but kyrian will give more value i guess but they are close
pale jetty
Is that optimized
clear zephyr
Is that without apl change?
clear zephyr
Oh interesting
clear zephyr
Lmao
pale jetty
Yeah obv it's shit on kyr
pale jetty
You strike a lot more as kyr
mental estuary
😆
pale jetty
Akaari just benefits tons more than rotten from increased dances
Symbols cd doesn't change, but dance cd does and akaari is inherently tied to dances
pale jetty
If rotten stands any chance, it's in venth
buoyant gyro
Liteally 2/3rds of the value of The Rotten is just the CP gain
clear zephyr
Like again, it's just not all about the damage.
That makes sense
buoyant gyro
You'd have to increase the damage gain by 3-4x for it to catch up
That's all I'm pointing out
I'm sure there are potential improvements here APL-wise
But making up 3% is a lot
pale jetty
I think it's somewhat possible for venth
To cut it really close
But I doubt it will be worth
There's only a 0.5% diff, but also the majority of gain for venth could just be the CP gain in flag
wind furnace
as mentioned
venthyr is more rigid rotation wise, so hard to say if its for venthyr even a damage gain
i see more potential for kyrian but the gap there is quite significant
pale jetty
Ye but also I'm pretty sure it's only close on venth because of the cps from rotten boosting flag
pale jetty
So the DMG needs to be much higher than just what was theorized
prime rune
as a simple self theorycrafter, i think best to do is, just test everything by yourself on same gear same dummy all covenents soulbinds legos and once u give desicion just write apl and try it, otherwise there is no way to compare
just my simple thinking tho, ofc maybe im wrong
livid ferry
go write the apl then and come back with results
wind furnace
XD
prime rune
but u know how to write it?
clear zephyr
Testing dummy’s is always a good thing. The only thing about sims is that it will do hundreds of thousands of iterations
prime rune
i mean do u even know how to maximize?:D
buoyant gyro
I mean it's an interesting concept, but stuff does have to be proven out with modifications at some point
pale jetty
Obv the apl isn't optimized to maximize backstab/gloom damage, but I believe that's because it could be a dps loss
nova nexus
and at some point, where do the values of each shift if you don’t have 100% uptime
pale jetty
Symbols isn't just a Crit, it's a damage amp that's extremely useful with dance
So putting it into a stab and holding it from dances could potentially be a dps loss
prime rune
yes symbol in the dance with shadow blades, 6x pv stuck hit 44k , if u just simply do 6xpv symbol and gloomblade its min 30k no NS
pale jetty
Yes but then you're wasting pv stacks by purposefully stabbing in dance with sod when you could've stabbed earlier
prime rune
anyway i wanted to share my toughts which i just have realised 🙂 i hope soon fuu or push can do apl to show is it right or not :p
pale jetty
And I think it's too rng to depend on 4p
quartz idol
yes symbol in the dance with shadow blades, 6x pv stuck hit 44k , if u just...
sorry but there is no chance gloomblade is beating WM as it stands right now
pale jetty
They could change apl, but it's too far behind on kyr, and venth only gains because of the cp
nova nexus
sorry but there is no chance gloomblade is beating WM as it stands right now
let’s just restart the conversation all over again.
livid ferry
i have a change that makes it better than WM
prime rune
u just have to pop your dance while u have 8 sec symbol CD
livid ferry
Hotfix: Gloomblade damage increased by 500%
dim mural
idk might not be enough
prime rune
@pale jetty u dont waste it gloom everything is lining very good, u just neeed to open dance by itself while u have 8 sec cd on symbol
livid ferry
so you're gonna pre cast symbols before combat starts
dim mural
opening with dance and holding symbols is kinda troll
livid ferry
and then at 9 seconds you're gonna shadowstrike from stealth
and then 8 seconds into the pull symbols gloomblade
prime rune
yes with dusk cheese, its fuking even more insane
just u have to burn your spinal cord little to get used to xD result good
dim mural
yeah i could see how you've gotten on to this really weird rant if you're using dust and hitting a dummy for 6mins
you see big number for your rotten PV backstab crit so it makes you forget about the damage that you missed by holding symbols / using it outside of dance
prime rune
u dont hold anything
dim mural
pretty staple feelycraft
prime rune
if u hold, u fail
using symbol in the dance, is worse thing ever, while symbol give us %100 crit first shot, why not use it something better then 7k crit SS
dim mural
i could see why you'd think that but doing that instead of trying to optimize for a 15% damage amp?
prime rune
i really dont know bro maybe its wrose 😦
i just have realised it and wanted to ask fuu
pale jetty
But with dust you don't get 6 PV stacks on opener
pale jetty
I guess you can but you might end up holding symbols for a couple seconds
dim mural
Like I could understand wanting to optimize a 6x PV into symbols for rotten but it just seems like a lot of work to still maybe be worse than akaari which is just auto
wind furnace
optimization is always good
pale jetty
10 sec cd on pull if used perfectly, you get your 6 stacks since opener maybe 13 seconds in?
prime rune
yea its wierd to play, but once u get used to pop dance while u have 8 sec CD on symbol, then things really going amazing becuse when u gloom u get 6cp also btw and that help alot to reset dance
pale jetty
Both ways might as well try
Yeah you also need to make sure you'll get a dance after that too
prime rune
even 5x pv very good but u really want 6x
wind furnace
with venthyr you want to use flag-dance-dance
but you also want to use smybols during early flag
prime rune
u can do 6 pv in 1 dance also , just burn some cps with extra SS
pale jetty
Like yeah I can see it working on kyrian but akaari is so op on kyrian
wind furnace
so if you delay symbols till after the first dance you have 8+ secs of 12 not covered
pale jetty
You're comparing one rotten stab to how many akaari procs?
pale jetty
Potentially like 12-18 akaari procs are being compared to one rotten usage
prime rune
and if u hit it with every symbol, its nice
prime rune
each akari %30 versa gives 7k crit
pale jetty
Oh shit it does now doesn't it
prime rune
yea it does, thats need to be included also i guess
prime rune
feels like, this one is better then akari, if they let u sit on one target for very long time and tunnel vision without mechanic
but once u start move around akari get more value
because u cant anymore perfectly line
dim mural
rotten is 50%
prime rune
nana its not
potent vault
That sounds wrong
It’s correct
pale jetty
Holy crap
dim mural
I was just on ptr messing with it
wind furnace
Can try some napkin math, how much damage amp is rotten
50%
pale jetty
That damage amp seems a lot more than 50
prime rune
ow sorry my mistake
wind furnace
That damage amp seems a lot more than 50
thats because its multiplicative
dim mural
It's the PV stacks + rotten that's in question
wind furnace
you have baseline*pv amp*1.5
pale jetty
So 50% damage amp on 6 pv versus 100% more often 6 pv
livid ferry
is he by any chance testing on some PvP dummy
pale jetty
In terms of pure damage, I don't think rotten comes close to beating Akaari I'll be honest
You get one rotten usage every like 12 akaari procs
prime rune
for me dummy is not important or overall, so far i compare things
prime rune
my gear is not optimal also
dim mural
It's just a big number vs more small numbers
prime rune
like i guess we need max vers
pale jetty
Vers scales both the same
dim mural
kinda classic feelcraft bait imo
pale jetty
Stats don't affect these, I think having more Crit vers helps akaari more than rotten
prime rune
maybe its bait, i just felt significantly this build better then the one we have here, thats why i rised a question iceblades
livid ferry
did you log anything or what
prime rune
push did it i guess
prime rune
its not right after that i changed some stuff and i start hit raid dummy but it can give u around idea
but i can do log at orgrimmar right now, if u wanna come
u can see
livid ferry
i dont have to come you can just make the log and post it in here
dont use any buffs or anything just raw dog it
no consumes
wind furnace
But I think that log was dismissed
the log has very low damage numbers
its like 2k dps
prime rune
log cant find shit man
livid ferry
so i assume thats not right