they litereally abandoned rogue for all of beta
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
nova nexus
it just needed the dfa animation spectated from the player while the player stayed in position
buoyant gyro
This is where I’m kinda dissatisfied for sure with modern class design
winged fiber
it just needed the dfa animation spectated from the player while the player stay...
like blade dance?
buoyant gyro
There’s very little regular incremental tuning of anything
wind furnace
gloomblade was viable in legion atbt as a valid option with double ring setup.
BfA also had a alternative talent/azerite combination that played will with it
nova nexus
instead it got some wonky ass convoluted cdr and animation that is meh
livid ferry
are you talking about sectech?
nova nexus
like blade dance?
no just take the old dfa animation, make it purple since sub rogues love purple and have it do the attack while the player doesn’t get locked out (monk clones)
wind furnace
i don't rly mind the animation of secret
nova nexus
people loved the jump up shit, just hated the landing
livid ferry
just replace it with some Touch of the magi/execution sentence effect
wind furnace
but i don't put a high value on fancy animations if the gameplay loop is interesting
winged fiber
it was the most visually pleasing spell
wind furnace
and i think high hitting signature moves like dfa did achieve that
nova nexus
jus t like sechtech, oh wait we lost those multipliers and trinkets
buoyant gyro
Devs just get to a state where they either don’t care about a spec like BfA Sub
Or they are happy with a spec like now
And don’t want to rock the boat
nova nexus
@buoyant gyro is there spell data for the the trinkets they added to jailer?
livid ferry
nova nexus
“alacrity rising”
buoyant gyro
So just never touch it forever
livid ferry
so ass man
buoyant gyro
<@116203458129821697> is there spell data for the the trinkets they added to jai...
Some of them I think
wind furnace
Fixing unwanted talents is also quite a rabbit hole to go down
livid ferry
the whole talent system should just be revamped
buoyant gyro
Talent system was maybe a good idea in some past context of the game but largely has been a failure in the modern design unfortunately.
livid ferry
it gives the illusion of choice but you are lucky if you have choices
like really lucky
wind furnace
I think it just needs iteration
buoyant gyro
Ironically think the classic style talents would actually be easier for them to maintain lol
unkempt peak
id also like to see the talent system change... the goal they tried to hit with the new talent system obviously still isnt obtainable, so might as well try again.
wind furnace
to offer more situational/niche options
nova nexus
Some of them I think
was curious if this was actual shadow damage.
buoyant gyro
They were trying to get away from the problem of having to make the talent tree taller every xpac. And having so many talents the same.
nova nexus
I’m ready to welcome back cap
buoyant gyro
But eventually have run into exactly the same problem
With the new talent tree design
Where most are boring and same numbers wise
And they never add more
mental estuary
Idk, I think the goal is achievable. A few specs use nearly every choice in every row.
buoyant gyro
They just recreated the same problem in a new UI 😄
wind furnace
i think subtlety had quite some decent iterations with a lot of options
nova nexus
die ES die
nova nexus
2 charges base. dark is amp, es is cdr
buoyant gyro
They were excited about them for a while until it was obvious it was too much work to actually have lots of different permutations of builds
Making dead talents significantly makes balance easier
unkempt peak
Alacrity has literally no place in the sub tree. that and vigor id argue
livid ferry
MoS is like the absolute shittiest last row talent i think ive ever witnessed
nova nexus
poison bomb says hi
livid ferry
i'd rather have something called Shadow Bomb in last row than mos my man
MoS has 0 place in current sub
garbage talent
nova nexus
only time you notice poison bomb is when things get moved out of it
wind furnace
i don't mind the mos row
buoyant gyro
If has Shadow in the name. That gives it purpose.
wind furnace
its actually decent when secrte would be tuned decently
unkempt peak
i mean, id argue all rogue specs have pretty dull last talent rows compared to other classes/specs
buoyant gyro
Hidden Blades tho
wind furnace
i think HB would work on sub if it was reworked to be a cooldown that gives you max stacks
nova nexus
CT baseline please
buoyant gyro
Shuriken Tornado is at least a somewhat unique idea. Doesn’t always work but the design is interesting.
unkempt peak
a revamped Shadow Reflections would have been pog
wind furnace
shuriken tornado and sht are both not intuitive tho
nova nexus
i mean look at the 9.2 apl. what’s intuitive about casting stab during dance
subs loop is spaghetti code
livid ferry
a revamped Shadow Reflections would have been pog
yes
unkempt peak
waiiiiittt
unkempt peak
we have to BS during shd?
wind furnace
unsure why casting backstab during dance is spaghetti code
nova nexus
wind furnace
as spaghetti code is used for unorganized/bad code usually
wind furnace
it does not do anything unintended
wind furnace
i mean, all the apl changes are logical, sub is actually fairly well structured
buoyant gyro
Using BS in Dance is pretty unintuitive I’ll give it that much
nova nexus
i’m not questioning the apl changes
i’m questioning the design and interaction we are given
throw shit at the wall and keep it purple
wind furnace
i am with koji there, bs in dance is unintuitive
buoyant gyro
That’s definitely like a next-level accidental interaction between two borrowed power systems lol
wind furnace
but is a side effect of akaaris
unkempt peak
i mean it does sound awful using BS during dance... like SS is basically an improved BS that we can only use in certain windows. but to do optional damage we need to use a lesser version of an ability.
wind furnace
i am still somewhat salty that rotten isn't competitive anymore
nova nexus
right now sub feels like form is coming before function, intended or not. I understand ooh make dance feel important, but sitting in dance 60% of the time and now adding back stab into dance. what?
wind furnace
backstab in dance does lower uptime tho
nova nexus
cds don’t exactly burst
unkempt peak
@wind furnace agreed, rotten & was it shadowdust? sad that legendaries probably wont get a balance look in
nova nexus
on the burst spec.
clear zephyr
Backstab during dance doesn’t seem too crazy. Literally just hit backstab when weak aura says
wind furnace
i don't think blizz has the bandwidth to tune legendaries more than fixing overpowered ones or buff covenant specific ones if needed
PV adds burst
so, i guess it is somewhat relatable with NV/dfa
nova nexus
big PV burst coming in. lol
wind furnace
not as exciting but still okay
nova nexus
it’s not burst
wind furnace
shadow dance uptime is also only that excessive on kyrian
kyrian can be in the 63-64% range
unsure if higher gear levels would make it higher than that
just to have some reference values, venthyr is at 55% uptime
winged fiber
reversed
i thought it was originally and thought it was hype af
then i reread it and was like oh this is complete and utter dog shit
winged fiber
feels gross
i don't want to press backstab and i definitely don't want something that makes me want to press backstab when i could be pressing something else
clear zephyr
That 63-65% is considered with tier correct
nova nexus
me out of practice with ER and no use of vanish. quite easily over 60%
wind furnace
kyrian on live is around 54%, venthyr on 47%
wind furnace
me out of practice with ER and no use of vanish. quite easily over 60%
yes, but thats mainly due to the variance in tier set procs
winged fiber
kyrian feels like 80% and venth like 45 lol
wind furnace
you could potentially end up with 70% up time one pull and 55% next pull
nova nexus
won’t matter. no daggies no sub. 
wind furnace
sylvanas daggers don't contribute to dance uptime
nova nexus
i’m not saying they do
mellow urchin
new post
TIER TOKENS
wooo
also
for anyone that wanted to game the catalyst
"We’ve been designing this tier with a future eventuality in mind. If you haven’t heard of it yet, a new in-game gear transformer called the Creation Catalyst will come online 8 weeks after the content update"
8 weeks
winged fiber
📈
mellow urchin
thats (hopefully) after prog for me at least, so kinda pointless
nice for alts tho
buoyant gyro
Yay tokens!
Surprised the catalyst is quite that delayed though
8 weeks is a fair amount of time
Didn’t expect it week 1 or anything but like
8 seems kinda extreme right?
buoyant gyro
That’s like world 400 level or better will all be done with prog by then lol
nova nexus
alt catchup or in my typical case pain relief
livid ferry
ye week 8 is a little whack
delicate osprey
did they say cd already?
wind furnace
double legendary will unlock before that
cd is only assumed due to a datamined spell iirc
nova nexus
The Creation Catalyst charges are global which means that an alt multiple weeks into the expansion will have multiple charges and can craft a set almost immediately
mellow urchin
did they say cd already?
you will gain charges while its not active yet
and everyone will gain charges globally
every week i assume
clear zephyr
Week 8 seems fine if they intentions of it was an alt catch up mechanic
mellow urchin
i imagine its how they fixed AK in Legion
clear zephyr
Given that rank 5 shards were available at week 7
wind furnace
it sounds quite bad for pvp/m+ players if they expected it as a alternative gearing path
clear zephyr
That is true
Because I was considering tokens being available for raiders in all difficulties
mellow urchin
Given that rank 5 shards were available at week 7
it was earlier
we killed sylvanas week 5
and we had ppl with rank 5
clear zephyr
Ah yeah that’s true for guilds that cleared mythic. Good point
livid ferry
i wouldn't even mind
nova nexus
the new MoS 
unkempt peak
I mean I wouldn't say no to something that gives sub more damage in execute range, but it's always been a pet peeve of mine when they say something is new, but it's actually just an old effect or something we played with for years prior
mellow urchin
replace gloomblade or premed with edge of night
unkempt peak
@rare ether is it true you are gonna be the lead designer for rogues in 10.0 onward
rare ether
- don’t ping me 2) literally what
steel meadow
rare ether
what does that even mean tho. ‘Is it true’ are y’all spreading rumors about me like weirdos
I s2g
autumn jungle
why is it always in this channel that the pinging happens
sub is doomed xd
livid ferry
nah no clue where he got that information
nova nexus
why is it always in this channel that the pinging happens
special purple butterflies in the subtlety circus.
mellow urchin
Nobody has dropped any of that kind in here, legit some of Edwards own lil idea
rare ether
I am not tryna be mean I am just begging roguecord to be normal just once
nova nexus
every time you ping Sxari rogues get a new nerf.
mellow urchin
I still do not understand why people think its ok to ping ppl cus you want a question answered unless you know the person
doesnt matter if its a wow dev or anything
steel meadow
pls dont gut sub to the ground because of that 
rare ether
Unless y’all know this person u do not have to bully them lol
rare ether
It’s just like this and whoever was like I HAVE INSIDE INFO HES NERFING SUB THIS WEEK when I just woke up like bro how
livid ferry
degen
mellow urchin
EU times
steel meadow
Sure
nova nexus
my dad works at microsoft. trust me more.
steel meadow
Can he buff rogue?
livid ferry
@mellow urchin answer my question
mellow urchin
<@!153289634909126656> answer my question
wtf do you want
livid ferry
wtf do you want
why are you a bitch
livid ferry
have to play the role since its what your mom likes
mellow urchin
weird
twilit stream
nova nexus
i can’t wait until we can have this banter on xbox live
mellow urchin
no hard feelings
cancelled
livid ferry
i can’t wait until we can have this banter on xbox live
xbox live party chat bit rate too
sound like you're in an aquarium
rare ether
have to play the role since its what your mom likes
This is gonna sound mean but how can one person be this bad at trash talking
plucky storm
subtle shale
Sorry IF it's a dumb question but are ptr builds uppdated every weekly reset?
livid ferry
the badness of it is the beautiful part
plucky storm
Sorry IF it's a dumb question but are ptr builds uppdated every weekly reset?
Pretty much
nova nexus
we’re used to self deprecating insults. we played subtlety in BFA
plucky storm
“It’s not trash talk, it’s art” - DK probably
livid ferry
yea its like the badness of the sub 4 piece, its beautiful
plucky storm
Oof
nova nexus
shadow dancers for world peace
nova nexus
brb rerolling
just wait until spriest gets a total rework 2 days before patch release.
rare ether
‘It’s like the badness of the sub 4pc’ I swear I could give you 100 dollars and you’d try to eat it
nova nexus
all dots now applied at melee range. also 47 apm spec, just purple.
potent vault
‘It’s like the badness of the sub 4pc’ I swear I could give you 100 dollars and ...
LOL
wait no the notification feature reply was on
mellow urchin
all dots now applied at melee range. also 47 apm spec, just purple.
i am confused, is this sub or spriest
rare ether
It’s okay you get one
nova nexus
i am confused, is this sub or spriest
spriest reworked to be assa but purple.
nova nexus
you missed the melee range part for for applications
mellow urchin
but i suspect assa with tier set might be as hectic as shadow in voidform
nah probably not
its high speed
nova nexus
livid ferry
i could make some mean set ideas for 100 bucks
forest hamlet
Sure, I take those 100 bucks
steel meadow
Maybe three hundred bucks is better
nova nexus
4 pc set bonus. DFA is back and DS nerfs reverted.
rare ether
i could make some mean set ideas for 100 bucks
I’ve seen your posts brother you can’t even do it for free
mellow urchin
4 pc set bonus. DFA is back and DS nerfs reverted.
was never nerfed btw
steel meadow
Stop it, he is already dead
forest hamlet
4 pc set bonus. DFA is back and DS nerfs reverted.
2pc shuriken combo is back
mellow urchin
just a SAD SAD consequence of the new dance
rare ether
I will cease my bullying for now
nova nexus
was never nerfed btw
the initial beta stuff
buoyant gyro
Just waiting for DK to ask you not to ping him
buoyant gyro
😄
steel meadow
It is passively nerfed because dance has 15% baseline
steel meadow
So taking dark u only get another 15%
mellow urchin
just didnt bother making it good
nova nexus
i forgot the time line but i’m pretty sure it was neutered coming out of bfa with other changes.
mellow urchin
dark was 25% in bfa
it became 30% during beta
to offset the dance changes
but obviously not even almost enough
forest hamlet
Is dark any good in pvp?
steel meadow
No
steel meadow
It sucks ass in any type of content
nova nexus
2 dance dark please and thank you.
mellow urchin
not true its decent in constant aoe
steel meadow
Ye
steel meadow
I wonder if nightstalker will finally affect black powder and flag.
proper cliff
I'm here to collect the body of a certain subtlety enjoyer, can someone point me in the right direction?
nova nexus
seesh
steel meadow
mellow urchin
sheeesh
livid ferry
who deleted that
mellow urchin
whispyr?
livid ferry
there was nothing bad in that message
nova nexus
dk bout to get deleted
steel meadow
It looked a bit offensive ngl
livid ferry
🥱
forest hamlet
Did you say the r-word? That gets auto filtered, no matter what. Even if you complain about things or so.
limpid lance
pliant minnow
mama bout to hit yall with the chancla^
wind furnace
This is not directly 9.2 related but pls don't ping scarizard for questions even if its tempting.
There is a high chance that you won't get your answer or a angry response. He will join the conversation if there is a incentive to share information.
robust lotus
delicate osprey
sometimes you need a well done steak
nova nexus
clear zephyr
Do you think it would ever be possible for simc to implement custom down times during bosses
Like between 2:30 and 2:50 a downtime intermission
crimson dawn
Could probably do that with a movement raid event https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/RaidEvents
or invulnerable
clear zephyr
good idea ill look into it thanks
wind furnace
Do you think it would ever be possible for simc to implement custom down times d...
you can do that, however don't expect the apl to be optimized for it
clear zephyr
Interesting.. Good to know thank you
delicate osprey
you can make your own tho! look up simcraft wiki rogue module is also quite well mantained so most actions kind of make sense
you can look at the source code inside even
wind furnace
yes but the apl is not optimized to throw random stuns or similar on the player (unsure if any apl would be optimized for that)
delicate osprey
that is correct
you could make it work but duration would have to be quite low to make some fix things
otherwise cooldown usage would krangle fast
wind furnace
while we optimize for adds, aoe, cleave, single target and priority target we haven't specifically optimized anything for damage amp events or other very niche events
its possible to optimize for it, but everything you maintain adds a lot of overhead
(also those events are not used)
wind furnace
updated comparison:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vNHPyH7goAs23KcQrwezvN
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/455688819648495617/937296271637643284/unknown.png
what changed:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/21912d904e393bb418b8a78fd9c57e46c060e898
thanks for ppl who helped with apl improvements 🙂 (annsie, elf, push and everyone who asks questions/brings ideas)
biggest changes:
#1 kyrian moves from ~2% ahead to ~4% ahead (13,85k -> 14.15k)
#2 necrolord gets quite a bit higher baseline (12,7k -> 12,9k)
pre apl update:
venthyr/nf stays largely unaffected
wind furnace
also because "bruh, we won't have 2 legos"
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fLJSLXz2LDMMGUx9amvf2c/simc
individual comparison between covenant lego/akaaris:
(necrolord has no comparison because deathspike is just bad)
wind furnace
optimizations ^^
wind furnace
i am surprised that it ends up ahead tbh, i expected it to be behind
at least on kyrian
winged fiber
i'm cool with it
kyrian shines in st so using akaaris with kyrian is dope
especially cuz the tier set makes hitting all those charged cp annoying
wind furnace
also interestsing
wind furnace
because you get more casts depnding on when 4p procs
wind furnace
likely a consequence of how akaaris works
winged fiber
does venth have to backstab during dance
wind furnace
yes
winged fiber
i'm assuming venth uses akaaris too
wind furnace
all specs do
wind furnace
all use akaaris for single target as 2nd legendary
with current legendary tuning
finality becomes better on higher targets
winged fiber
how do they compare 2 target
have you simmed that?
i remember it was fairly close between the two looking at them before nathria
wind furnace
i think akaaris should come out ahead on 2
winged fiber
interesting
wind furnace
3 is when finality starts becomming relevant esp. hence it is also the point you start using bp
winged fiber
yea i could see that
wind furnace
but i would need to sim it for sure
winged fiber
i'm actually really happy that kyrian uses akaaris for prog though
bing chilling mode
no annoying cp
winged fiber
Ooh pog
wind furnace
4p set bonus dissabled:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jBpd7Gk8nRqhcMSi7f46BR
winged fiber
Interesting
wind furnace
need to double check sth with kyrian tho to be sure its represented correctly
okay, seems all fine (had to check how high RC is in impact and if there could be a bad side effect of the apl updates i did)
feral schooner
Any idea what pvp rank/ rating we need to get out of the chest a set piece in 9.2?
wind furnace
rating only decides the itemlevel
so you don't need to get high rating to get a tier set
feral schooner
combatant is 1400
You just need to valor ponts or?
delicate osprey
no pvp is conquest points gained per week to fill chest
feral schooner
so you don't need to get high rating to get a tier set
So just spam 2v2 in 9.2 get the points and the chest?
delicate osprey
then a reward based on rating
feral schooner
then a reward based on rating
Ok and what rating do we need for 9.2 tier sets?
Just 1.4?
delicate osprey
most likely
feral schooner
Ok nice
wise crescent
does solo arean q also count as ranking for vault?
nova nexus
@livid ferry the solution to the problem is burn it all.
livid ferry
nova nexus
imagine that thought 12 months ago 
keen ravine
So stupid question as I'm sure it hasn't come up 10000 times already lol but are we currently thinking the 2 daggers on the PTR will replace the dagger from Sylv?
wind furnace
not in offhand
keen ravine
the new weapons stats and dmg out put are looking kinda sub par to that proc
wind furnace
the sylvanas dagger is the strongest offhand in the game right now
and only nerfs to the effect or changes on how offhand works could change that
keen ravine
So we will/might change MH but OH is here to stay unless they break it
wind furnace
yes, but mainhand also not that easy, more like in mythic
keen ravine
mean I only raid Normal and push some into heroic so I assume my normal daggers are here to stay for a while
wind furnace
and getting the best mythic dagger will take time
heroic will be enough to easy beat a mythic offhand
normal is iirc about on par
keen ravine
Heroic Sylv dagger beat the new raids Mythic OH?
keen ravine
so normal will be about the same. I'm probably only looking at swapping my daggers if I push from raiding normal to like heroic or mythic of the new raid when it releases
unless they break the dagger
wind furnace
likely yes
keen ravine
well thats depressing lol
wind furnace
again, it is not off the table that they change the dagger or anything else
keen ravine
right. mean who knows how long we got till release
wind furnace
there is a certain time window that seems like the most reasonable assumption
however you never know
keen ravine
I kinda assume march around spring break but thats my opinion
least I don't get screwed by the 2nd leggo thing as my leggo is already my belt
nova nexus
eh? you’re making a second legendary at some point. your current belt is either getting upgraded and you put the unity in a different slot, or you get the unity and recreate X lego
keen ravine
does the unity not have to be a belt? I thought thats what they had already said? If so I'll just have to make the unity when I unlock it and throw on my other leggo
nova nexus
there is a belt, or a rep gated plan to put it on any slot but weapon or trinket.
you’re “making” 1 lego no matter what if you’re upgrading to 291
upgrading is basically just using the ash and cinders but still need a vessel and new currency.
keen ravine
well ya but I already have 2 different slots at the current lvl because I wasn't sure how long it'd take to get to the 291 or how the upgrades was going to work so I premade a finality and one of the others incase we could pick any of them lol
wind furnace
akaari could be relevant with tier set already
^ i did sim it earlier in this thread
2nd legendary will come in later, so won't be a immediate issue
keen ravine
I'm just glad it looks like we will being staying kyrian for the most part lol
wind furnace
seems so right now but balancing and other change can shift the balance between covenants
keen ravine
ya. I have my venth leggo still to just in case
neat dagger
In m+ slyv daggers arent bis in OH or?
wind furnace
probably too
neat dagger
Sad
thick wren
read the latest pin and the best boss spoke in my head: Stupid rogues and your fascination with pings!
ruby pulsar
Will kyrian not just be higher in siming but In reality venthyr will be better, becayse of the fact that the 4 set makes the animacharged cp hard to hit?
coarse quiver
on paper, no kyrian will still be the play, but in practice we'll have to see how well people play kyrian in actual prog
grave peak
its not like kyrian is super hard to play
and even if you sometimes dont hit a charged point it doesnt really matter with how far ahead above venth it is
winged fiber
You play akaaris with 4 pc so it won’t be an issue till double leggo anyways
hazy girder
I think the decision between kyrian and venthyr will be much more related to damage profiles than hitting the second anima charged combo point
grave peak
the only fights as of right now youd even consider playing venthyr over kyrian on would be the first boss and anduin
and even then i'd prob stay kyrian
buoyant gyro
Will kyrian not just be higher in siming but In reality venthyr will be better, ...
I don’t really expect this to be a serious issue. If anything one could argue any increase in CP gen just speeds up how quickly you can cycle through the buffs. After all, your next GCD after a finisher has to be a builder anyway. So it wouldn’t really do anything but remove a GCD from the process.
wind furnace
^ you can also use weakaura to assist you with combo point procs what makes the fishing a lot easier
soft stratus
next ptr build gonna be this week right?
mellow urchin
There is one pretty much every week yea
soft stratus
awesome
neat dagger
i hope this week comes some tuning
wind furnace
agree, would be rly nice to see some more final numbers and being able to re-test apl optimizations
neat dagger
yeah, fix all t-sets every class, nerf surv and release candidate
that would be awesome
😄
in the pins is said, that t-set of sub will get nerfed. was the nerf already or propably next build?
neat dagger
oh okay
midnight flume
Have people been trying the tier set in m+?
It feels pretty bad, at least for me
2 set is not relevent past 3 targets and 4 set during tornado also feels bad
Also, wasn't the 4 set supposed to apply find weakness? Because at the moment it doesn't and it really does affect a lucky streak of black powder spam on higher target counts because FW runs out
wind furnace
2p will proc on 4p procs
but yes, the set in general is very proc dependent
this is by design and feedback was given that it has to high impact
wind furnace
^ it is mentioned in the changelog for the tier set (bluepost)
nova nexus
It feels pretty bad, at least for me
welcome to 9.2 sub. many of us not excited by the set / gameplay
if it stays “giga dps” a lot of people will say it’s great.
midnight flume
How it feels to play is more important than just dps, but I guess this is very subjective.
nova nexus
it is
midnight flume
I very highly doubt we're gonna reach mage numbers in m+ anyway
I'd be happy with even 70% of that
nova nexus
we don’t reach wizard numbers now
midnight flume
No, but I can keep up with mages in overall in a few dungs, that's not the case on PTR in any dungeon
wind furnace
How it feels to play is more important than just dps, but I guess this is very s...
i mean, i am yet to be proven incorrect in my opinion
the tier set list video from limit max did put it on fun and powerful
so its entirely possible that we are proven wrong, and that it is indeed fun and exciting
it just hasn't been a lot of fun on ptr for me so far
but i haven't played it excessively
nova nexus
fun is the subjective part of it. powerful can have a more analytical process
wind furnace
my problem is, that i feel like the tier list video is highly impacted by the tuning of it atm
midnight flume
Maybe its the ping, maybe its not being used to it but I just found it very unsatisfying in single target and not great in aoe
nova nexus
i could say your experience with keeping up with mages is subjective based on your experiences with a small number of mages
but it’s a very reactive setup
midnight flume
Like sure, you can have those back to back flags but when you get 0 procs and then suddenly 5 in a row after flag is done it doesn't even feel good
nova nexus
you’re a purple outlaw rogue
so i’m not surprised someone who loves outlaw called the set fun
wind furnace
tbh i will stay optimistic and assume we get used to it
but i will stay with my opinion that a deterministic bonus would be superior
e.g. assassinaiton also has also very low random proc impacts
nova nexus
my view is if I wanted to play outlaw I would play outlaw.
wind furnace
yet the design team did not feel like it was a perfect fit to add those
nova nexus
and current version on ptr just throws rng into all of it in excess
wind furnace
but rather added something that does feel impactful
nova nexus
so your dopamine hit is 6 free combo points if your previous attack didn’t overwrite those.
neat dagger
and the fact that you can't keep up with mages on the ptr may also mean that mage is currently too crazy and is being nerfed. It depends not only on us as a sub, rather the overall dps tuning will tell, nothing happend for m+ atm
midnight flume
I don't disagree Maj but there are a lot of classes doing twice the overall of rogue on PTR right now, in non-funnel situations
It's not just mage
neat dagger
we dont need to talk about SV 😄
wind furnace
btw. the assassination tier set is by no means perfect, its also has its issues and shortcommings
nova nexus
am I missing anything?
wind furnace
but the 2p improves the baseline and 4p changes the rotation
ptr is tuning wise a bit whack a mole atm
midnight flume
am I missing anything?
Guardian venthyr druid doing 200k dps in some pulls? 
nova nexus
and gives you ultimate a different gameplay (well as different as assa base allows for).
nova nexus
Guardian venthyr druid doing 200k dps in some pulls? <:pepehmmm:9076097760018063...
we don’t talk tanks
wind furnace
dusk rly makes the big change for assassination
and a lot of ppl are not happy about playing night fae
nova nexus
losing dashing sucks tbh
wind furnace
it sucks because you are used to it
sin/outlaw have strong spec specific legendary powers, thats why
nova nexus
well the regen really does feel impacted.
wind furnace
for sub we just jumped ship from our spec specific ones and went with covenant ones as they did outperform
nova nexus
idk if numbers support but you’ve got a high and low speed to assa on ptr. nothing in between
wind furnace
i am also unsure about m+
i think sub will stay the best choice, but i could be wrong
tuning will in the end matter a lot
nova nexus
your sooth being a dps gain isn’t exactly a good thing at times in m+
unless there’s an actual gain for going assa, the sub toolkit is just better
wind furnace
ngl the assassination tier set with necro could be rly strong in aoe
nova nexus
ngl the assassination tier set with necro could be rly strong in aoe
@tardy oracle your dreams are coming true
wind furnace
haha^^
i mean, just going by whispyrs sims, necrolord is #1 in dungeon slice output
delicate osprey
yes for assasination sbs is good with deathspike on m+ it makes you waste less globals on spreading it
problem is nf also has a lot of nice things
like shadowblades from onslaught affecting empowered garrotes
so you can have 6 of them ticking for a lot and also get a flat 50% on top
and then korayn etc
wind furnace
problem atm is that subtlety is 2k+ ahead in dungeon slice
so unless there is some hidden sims (or missing optimizations) that put assassination higher
or a big damage loss from upcoming tier tuning
i don't see sub becoming non competitive
delicate osprey
yea as always fun or cool does not equal best ahaha
like people inting sub by not using rupture well or letting snd fall off
the little things in m+
wind furnace
I don't think it makes that big of a diffrence
delicate osprey
it will also kind of get more complex im still neutral about tier set i kind of like it introduces more reactionary gameplay
wind furnace
playing subtlety not perfect still makes it peform well
delicate osprey
but i can understand why some people would not like it
wind furnace
and even mdi players do not optimize to the maximum extend
delicate osprey
it really depends on which dungeon playing sub in low target cleave dungeons well does make a huge diff
well mdi have their own thing sadly so only them can make their strats
wind furnace
mdi is a lot more about pathing, exploits (snapping, item abuse, etc.) and avoiding mistakes than perfect play on each player
delicate osprey
i do sometimes not agree with what i see equiped etc too but oh well
in the end is just play better than the other team most of the time
wind furnace
this does not mean that i think the level of play is bad or anything
yes
i hope we see some tuning changes and bugfixes this reset
would rly like to get a more finished picture of the tier set tuning
delicate osprey
that would help also maybe some changes to some leggos maybe
or making sbs benetit from shadowblades
wind furnace
changing deathspike would def. be a very good thing
but i am unsure how much time there is left till patch release
just going with the expected dates, it could mean that there are like 2 weeks of changes to get to a "shippable product"
delicate osprey
best and easiest fix is making it like the feral leggo that increases dmg if its only on 1 target
barren forge
How would you use sbs as sub? Throw it between dances?
wind furnace
easiest fix for deathspike is to just add a damage amp to sbs when using the legendary
delicate osprey
ye like the feral leggo but just baseline on the leggo
wind furnace
koji suggetsed that, and i like the idea as its passive but would make the ability quite a bit more potent
wind furnace
only problem i could see with a damage amp is amp stacking
but i assume you could put diffrent values for specs
similar to deathly shadows
lunar fractal
Anyone know if there's gonna be new flasks / DPS pots in 9.2?
wind furnace
^ you can stock up if you want already (on flasks)
lunar fractal
Ah nice
I thought there's gonna be new herbs
So those won't be really useful besides hp pots?
buoyant gyro
so unless there is some hidden sims (or missing optimizations) that put assassin...
I think we still may need to optimize Shiv usage for AoE raid events after the changes, which hasn't happened yet.
Since the new design is pretty recent, it hasn't really been looked at too much
Sub gains from the tier set are pretty passive so don't really require as much work
wind furnace
possible, tier set tuning isn't finished either
tardy oracle
<@!210784027752398848> your dreams are coming true <:omegalul:585734084777476096...
getting pinged in sub discussion 
civic terrace
nova nexus
getting pinged in sub discussion <:Weirdege:878327405339635752>
that line for the ping was worth it
you know it
ocean ridge
so long as we are middle to upper tier ill be happy
delicate osprey
yea dont think we are moving from that we are a good class after top ones
solid base
ocean ridge
i do wonder what legenedaries are on the table thou
delicate osprey
for sub we will play kyrian RC+aakari in raid and on m+ venth obedience aakari too unless you want to int with finality
midnight flume
Isnt finality more funnel?
delicate osprey
if you played mastery maybe
but then you also want beast boss dmg
i can see finality working tho
midnight flume
I mean, finality is 12.5% more evis dmg in funnel while akaari is pretty much nothing
ocean ridge
i think its more the interaction with the tier
mellow urchin
I think finality is better for m+
mellow urchin
Its more aoe and more funnel
delicate osprey
finality is really solid tho
midnight flume
I tried both and there was a big difference
delicate osprey
you know what i will play ahaha
mellow urchin
Akaari is mainly low target cleave
delicate osprey
i have 159% matery
midnight flume
Maybe its due to bugs aswell
midnight flume
You really don't need to stack mast though
delicate osprey
no you dont
but i do
also 17% leech
and 12% avo
fuck i hate getting tertiary on new tiers
midnight flume
I hope they rework the set somehow in the end, tone down the rng element a bit
midnight flume
3 weeks
mellow urchin
Just gotta adapt and make the best of it
They have spent last few weeks on fixing the bugs and now gonna change it? Unlikely
delicate osprey
i dont dislike the set tbh makes spec more reactive sadly im always neverlucky so here i come with 40% blades uptime
mellow urchin
Besides its 20-24% proc chance on the 4p, its not that low
ocean ridge
well i basically have all the leather items from sod
i should be fine if i have to move some gear about for more mastery
ocean ridge
i can actually get to baseline 20% mastery if i want lol
delicate osprey
it is 32 or 36 i think
im still excited for jailer trinket hope it gives cool things
mellow urchin
Fuu did a stat sim way back
delicate osprey
then vers is just good overall
ocean ridge
Hows that for a spread 😄
delicate osprey
haste hmm
midnight flume
haste tea?
ocean ridge
let me see what venth would be
i hate m+
i'd go up a ilvl but the spread would be crap lol
more haste less crit
less vers
delicate osprey
boe bracers or legs are really good
ocean ridge
yeah got em in bank
delicate osprey
well i think you have kt pants and tarra wrist already and those are good
i just play those because of the stats they have and also leech gamers
ocean ridge
i put the item into the void storage and i forgot to remove the gem
well i put in a ticket but i dont know if that will help
delicate osprey
not showing up in item restore?
ocean ridge
no
delicate osprey
neverlucky
crisp lichen
im psure u dont get actual tier pieces from anything but raid vault :)
hoary zephyr
@crisp lichen https://www.wowhead.com/news/tier-set-gear-can-appear-in-all-nine-great-vault-slots-in-patch-9-2-325743
plucky storm
hoary zephyr
also when I tested it before, tier drops were disabled
maybe they enabled it
dunno
says in the article too
crisp lichen
psure they spoke about it only dropping a normal piece that u can craft into a set piece at some point
but well
hoary zephyr
well there is that which is Creation Catalyst
but I distinctly remember them talking about tier itself dropping in vaults
or else that will cuck M+ and PvP players
pale dew
I turned the ping off dw
crisp lichen
why should m+ players be able to get raid tier sets
pale dew
But he explains thete
hoary zephyr
monka
pale dew
But that was before tokens
crisp lichen
either way why should u be scared if u ping him
hoary zephyr
tier drops from vault
because he gets mad for pinging him
multiple times has stated dont ping him
pale dew
I believe he said something about nerfing the tier set if pinged
crisp lichen
public discord
ppl know ur name
what does he expect
turn pings off if u dont wanna see them or hear them
hoary zephyr
alright
pale dew
He expects if he gets pinged he will no longer be in the public discord
wind furnace
its not that difficult to not ping
nova nexus
its not that difficult to not ping
hi Fuu 
mellow urchin
its not that difficult to not ping
🙂
wind furnace
i don't mind getting pinged
mellow urchin
bottomline is that its hard to control thousands of ppl
someone will ping and when its already done you cant moderate it
wind furnace
yes, but this channel has around 140 ppl in it
mellow urchin
ye and any random person can just decide to tag
perhaps give scari different role that you cant ping
idk
but sometimes he wants pings, so idfk
wind furnace
you can always ping an individual, it is a not solvable problem. I think the best we can do is discourage people to do it
i don't think it is a issue if it only happens every once in a while
but i can understand his stance that he don't want to wake up to 100 pings
nova nexus
unless it’s skip. then it’s always an issue.
wind furnace
its easy to control individuals, you can mute or ban them
mellow urchin
i mean people see blizzard employee and starts pinging about "reveals", its so god damn cringe
hoary zephyr
Hahaha or just don’t ping and read pins or when the dude says a bunch of times don’t ping me
wind furnace
i don't think that you can expect someone to leak details that are not public
in the degree people expect
there is a big diffrence between telling people that they work on sth, or go into detail about some decision
hoary zephyr
Also why are we justifying this behavior with “it’s a public discord bro” lmao?
Strange behavior
wind furnace
and strict out leak stuff that is still actively developed
also even outside of a dev
pinging somone repeatedly is a form of herassment, it is a easy way to get warned/muted/banned
we had in the past people who did ping and then delete messages, this is also why we have a log with delete messages
neverless, lets return to a diffrent topic
will we see rogue tier set tuning/bugfixes this week 
soft stratus
sub rogue topic 😍
nova nexus
will we see rogue tier set tuning/bugfixes this week <:monkahmm:5857340845719552...
yes.
soft stratus
i expect a new ptr build today in 5* hours
feral schooner
will we see rogue tier set tuning/bugfixes this week <:monkahmm:5857340845719552...
I really hope we do not see any big nerfs. Maybe they could nerf our cov legendary?
feral schooner
I think nerfing the set will be worse then having let's say 5 see longer cd on eco or flag or whatever
neat dagger
t-set will get nerfed, was announced already
south osprey
Nerf the dmg of the strikes
nova nexus
or they go holy pali route and nerf the spec and not the set
and that’s even worse imo
feral schooner
I know but blizzard announces lots of stuff
nova nexus
I know but blizzard announces lots of stuff
nova nexus
and maybe they won’t
south osprey
Everything
proper cliff
24% damage increase from the tier set doesn’t sound overtuned to you?
soft stratus
I mean, is it the highest gain out of all classes in the game?
neat dagger
the average t-set dps gain for dps is around 10-15%
so we need 10% reduce on t-set and lets go
south osprey
Nerf it by 4% and we have 10+10
nova nexus
I mean, is it the highest gain out of all classes in the game?
yes and apparently mobile doesn’t like that link. read the main spec channel pins.
soft stratus
yes and apparently mobile doesn’t like that link. read the main spec channel pin...
is there a link that shows comparison to other classes? since I see a post about bugfixes and sims specifically for sub
nova nexus
comparison of what? they have a range for a goal which they’ve talked about numerous times. sub is exceeding that by nearly twice as much.
proper cliff
Looking at ptr numbers across classes is kind of irrelevant
mellow urchin
the nerf is happening, just gonna have to pray its a reasonable nerf that doesnt make the set a lot more rng, its probably inevitable that some of the rng is increased
nova nexus
so unless they have a moment of fuck it sub rogues are special, here you get different rules not happening.
proper cliff
Look at it within the class, assassination was around 24ish % and it got nerfed
soft stratus
hard for me to reply to 2 people at the same time
mellow urchin
Look at it within the class, assassination was around 24ish % and it got nerfed
prob getting nerfed again
nova nexus
the nerf is happening, just gonna have to pray its a reasonable nerf that doesnt...
and when the more rng hits, pushpriest drops 
proper cliff
prob getting nerfed again
Probably going to fix the snapshot thing yeah
mellow urchin
the assa set is still like 15-16% right
if you believe the wow gods thats also over budget
nova nexus
assa should be as upset about forced into dust as they were about obedience. fucking cowards.
mellow urchin
Probably going to fix the snapshot thing yeah
if not for numbers then for gameplay
mellow urchin
assa should be as upset about forced into dust as they were about obedience. fuc...
bit different 
but sure
nova nexus
let me have my hot take. i just woke up.
soft stratus
yes and apparently mobile doesn’t like that link. read the main spec channel pin...
You answered "yes" to my question, so I asked for other class comparisons to see where you got that information because I'm genuinely interested
nova nexus
read every class guide writers post on wowhead if you don’t believe what was said by the dev here or what’s been happening to other spec tuning.
wind furnace
tier set is ~25%
mellow urchin
You answered "yes" to my question, so I asked for other class comparisons to see...
the closest we get to a class comparison is the kindred 9.2 spreadsheet
and theres currently 4 specs above 13k sim dps in that sheet
havoc dh, spriest, sub rogue and enh shaman
soft stratus
nova nexus
this is what’s considered correct.
mellow urchin
u mean this spreadsheet? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1baQypWt2RjCYvtR...
yes, but its not accurate for all specs
soft stratus
also the APLs are probably not up to date
nova nexus
cumulative near 14%. holy pala had tier set left alone (over performing) and instead the base of the spec nerfed heavily
mellow urchin
there is no list thats "accurate"
soft stratus
yeah but it's an approximation
mellow urchin
cumulative near 14%. holy pala had tier set left alone (over performing) and ins...
can still get nerfed
as well
soft stratus
okay I understand that it's overtuned now, I had a different idea on sub in mind
nova nexus
and if it doesn’t get nerfed now, there’s always heroic tuning to fix things
tank dps is still 🍌
maybe that’s a thing for 9.2
soft stratus
tier set is ~25%
is it ~25% before or after bugfixes?
neat dagger
i guess they will do dps tuning before 9.2 goes live. the funerals for some classes.
wind furnace
after
nova nexus
i guess they will do dps tuning before 9.2 goes live. the funerals for some clas...
and more than likely after it goes live if they miss the mark.
mellow urchin
i guess they will do dps tuning before 9.2 goes live. the funerals for some clas...
why do you think they would just let overnerfed classes rot
have they ever done that except to sub for all of bfa
nova nexus
i’m just waiting to see if the tier set is still “fun” when it’s not “overtuned powerful”
wind furnace
no it wasn't but they buffed everything else to make it the weakest spec
wind furnace
so it ended up at the bottom after tuning
mellow urchin
i remember
nova nexus
CN run by DKs
neat dagger
lets hope blizzard does the right thing. since 9.1.5 im actually happy with their decisions
mellow urchin
i mean for when prog happened in my case, sub was imo the best rogue spec
cus assa was fucking trash
and outlaw is outlaw
wind furnace
outlaw was about on par with sub
hoary zephyr
Kyrian sub week 1 
wind furnace
people even went from sub to outlaw
nova nexus
sub was arguably worse rot in 8.x
hoary zephyr
And kyrian sub again
wind furnace
bfa def. had sub as a "unwanted child" spec
soft stratus
i didn't play rogue in bfa, but i remember that one boss in the first bfa raid that stacked sub rogues, zul or smth
neat dagger
and more intresting is, do they nerf the unbelievable frost m+ dmg
nova nexus
CN was a weird setup for melee, especially for trying to follow the meta
mellow urchin
and more intresting is, do they nerf the unbelievable frost m+ dmg
who knows
its hard to know what to expect from blizzard, sometimes they nerf the shit out of something and sometimes they just let it sit
like i still dont understand how venthyr druid was allowed to exist for all of 9.1 when it literally break fights with the burst dps
wind furnace
balance in general is quite questionable
mellow urchin
and obedience was nerfed as a 10% legendary, meanwhile ravenous frenzy was like 22% and remained
i think boomies are more eager to stay OP than we are
wind furnace
to be fair, if the class was balanced around having this single legendary, it might be fine
mellow urchin
idk i think balance druid in 9.1 was breaking fights just like sub was on zul
mellow urchin
and a big reason why you held dps to 3 min timings on almost every boss was due to balance burst
wind furnace
but unlike subtlety, it wasn't hammered instantly
wind furnace
i don't think its favoritism
there is always a higher standard taken when it comes to rogue tuning
this is why its easy possible that rogue won't be as dominant in 9.2
because if rogue is "as good" output wise as other classes, and they provide additional benefits...
its unlikley that you bring it over the other class
similar thing applies to feral or hunter
mellow urchin
because if rogue is "as good" output wise as other classes, and they provide add...
wdym we have fuck all for utility
pliant minnow
But shroud!
mellow urchin
i guess its just language barrier
but ye rogue needs to be tuned well or its not played
even now when we are arguably one of the strongest classes in the game dps wise
rogue has quite low amount of ppl playing it
wind furnace
thats because pure output on st is not the only metric
mellow urchin
in SoD
it pretty much is
lots of st
even on the "aoe fight", ST dmg matters more
so funnel is good
steel meadow
where these aoe fights even
mellow urchin
soulrender
steel meadow
is it boss?
mellow urchin
thats pretty much it
steel meadow
i thought it was rare mob
steel meadow
no it wasnt
wind furnace
dh/warrior beat rogue in terms of population
steel meadow
sure
wind furnace
but dh is somewhat mandatory
mellow urchin
both nerzhul and soulrender were 50+ wipes for most guilds week 1
stark sierra
Warrior gives battle shout and rally
steel meadow
top guilds did it for 20 pulls
mellow urchin
Limit 6 healed soulrender
steel meadow
so?..
steel meadow
tells just about tons of incoming damage in fight
mellow urchin
idk when you did these fights, but they became a joke after week 1 cus the ramp in getting dom sets was huge
steel meadow
nothing about gear requirements if they could play with 6 healers and still didnt even manage to get enrage or smth
mellow urchin
When did you do soulrender/nerzhul?
steel meadow
2nd week
pale jetty
The diff is they are players who are insanely good at minmaxing dps while doing mechanics
mellow urchin
you underestimate how much 1 week did in early SoD
pale jetty
Every single one of them
That's why they're in rwf
It's unrealistic to look at their pull counts
mellow urchin
i mean its also just more gear early on since they do splits
steel meadow
well i also dont play in wf guild where everyone is playing very well on their classes and minmax every possible thing
so its equializer
pale jetty
That too push
mellow urchin
i think nerzhul was the 3rd hardest boss in there for us
sylvanas > painsmith > nerzhul
pale jetty
SoD is poorly tuned but very early on a few bosses were harder than they seemed for everyone
mellow urchin
ye
they didnt do these fights without a single dom set
the dps/healing requirement was actually quite high
imagine if the entire raid was done without dom sets, it might have been properly tuned
pale jetty
Idk what blizz tuned the fights to
mellow urchin
probably the first version of dom sets, which had them not scale with ranks
the rank scaling basically doubled the gain
pale jetty
I guess, extremely weird tier
I'm just HOPING next tier they don't do the same mistake
Where third week of mythic bosses start dropping like flies
mellow urchin
i fear they will, but not as a mistake but as a deliberate strategy for "nerfing content"
pale jetty
Bash skull against boss = kill
nova nexus
what could possibly go wrong with adding a second lego in week 3