9.2 Feedback and Discussion

[pale jetty]

I got phial from vault second week

So I got turbo fucked

All my luck dissipated

But at least I have double hc

Still have a few weeks to get mythic

Just need to turbo cope for vault

[mental estuary]

I just have single HC Dagger + Norm Dagger. -_-

Turbo cope indeed.

[hoary zephyr]

Scari confirmed Akaari is fixed with the 4 set interaction and will be pushed soon.

[thick wren]

sub set havent been nerfed yet?

[robust lotus]

Not yet but it shall

[mental estuary]

I hope they look at double leggo interactions before they just nerf the sub set. Or instead to do a hard leggo tuning pass.

[thick wren]

as far as I remember we dont have any daggers from last bosses, with higher ilvls and passives, so do we really need set bonus nerfs...

[crisp lichen]

there will be a dagger from rygelon

[thick wren]

the one with int and vers proc?

[crisp lichen]

no

https://www.wowhead.com/news/blizzard-on-higher-item-level-weapons-from-raid-design-philosophy-no-weapon-325723

[thick wren]

oh, 2 hours ago. Thank you!

[round orbit]

scari also just posted in sin 9.2 thread

[rare ether]

it's like the first sentence

it's an agi dagger

[nova nexus]

one of the topics of discussion in here has been how useful should Edge of Night be going forward

[winged fiber]

i'm fine with keeping one in offhand

if there's not something unique to replace it

even at its current tuning we'll be replacing it in mainhand

with the new mythic dagger

[buoyant gyro]

Thanks for the update and I'm excited about the change to the dagger. That said, I don't fully agree on the excitement level of the token thing. WoW had item tokens for a really, really long time (going back to TBC and for many xpacs) and I never felt it was detrimental. The excitement of getting back to town, turning stuff in, and enchanting it imo is just as good or sometimes better than just getting the drop and instantly swapping your current gear. (I mean, there's a reason games like Diablo and PoE do identification stuff too.)

Tokens imo solve far more problems than they create at the end of the day, especially with the messed up drop issues for Dagger/Bow users.

[winged fiber]

I kind of agree koji

as cool as sylv daggers are

not getting one feels like shit

i'd rather have a token

it took me till basically january to get my first mythic one

i have 21 mythic sylv kills and still only have one

....

[buoyant gyro]

We've got like, what.. 3-4 more weeks before I can say I never saw a Sylv dagger drop once in raid. Just relying on getting things out of my GV is way less fulfilling that drops in raid, even if they are tokens.

GV never really feels like you earned the item

[winged fiber]

same

i've literally never seen one drop in raid from mythic

21 kills

and we have more than 1 rogue

[buoyant gyro]

Never seen one drop in either difficulty haha

[winged fiber]

oof

i saw 2 drop in heroic i think

[buoyant gyro]

Both my H and M dagger (1 each currently) are from GV

[winged fiber]

out of 48 kills

i got mythic out of vault i got heroic to actually drop

on like my 40th kill lol

[buoyant gyro]

Realistically it's not even mathematically unlikely of an outcome

[winged fiber]

it's actually just painful

yea especially with 1 rogue

[hoary zephyr]

add agi on the int vers dagger. Make the dagger also work on abilities

big

[left storm]

so the heroic dagger will still be bis oh?

[buoyant gyro]

Chance of getting 2 daggers by the end of the tier is really low. Only have like a ~4% chance per week even if everything is fair with personal loot. That's only what.. about a 39% chance of seeing a Dagger after 12 kills?

After 20 kills you have about a 44% chance of having not seen a Dagger.

[nova nexus]

no dagger club here as well

[plucky storm]

I traded off my 3rd mythic dagger to a shaman for transmog

[winged fiber]

this is me

[buoyant gyro]

F in chat

[nova nexus]

[plucky storm]

My chat was screaming

[nova nexus]

mentally that dagger says just play your warrior you idiot.

[crisp lichen]

just reroll ranged

[winged fiber]

and get a free raid spot

no thanks i prefer suffering

[buoyant gyro]

Honestly the worst part about it is.. we have 2 Rogues in Mythic raid and still haven't seen a dagger 😛

[mental estuary]

I think like to a base degree it's cool maintaining the "holy fuck I got the thing" in the current system is cool. I just don't like that you can go an entire tier with the raid on farm for half of it or more and not get that item.

I think if there is some kind of safety net is no problem. Like say after 10th kill of end boss in a difficult can get a token to buy whatever you want or something.

[nova nexus]

ranged and my eyesight just don’t get along or I would have.

[crisp lichen]

can just play ranged in melee range

[hoary zephyr]

play warrior

if you care about melee that much

[mental estuary]

It's easy, just add a 4th ranged Rogue spec ala D4. Lol.

[nova nexus]

it’s not caring it’s visual impairments. I have a fully geared warrior. charge weaving as arms gets dicey at times.

[pliant minnow]

what kind of gains does charge weaving get you?

[nova nexus]

on arms it’s a pretty decent rage gain. if you have wft it’s not as big a deal

swing times are so slow you leap out and charge in around the swing timer which can, well put you in an awkward spot

[pale jetty]

apparently akaari 4p is fixed?

tier set bug fixes underway hopium

[robust lotus]

yuh

waiting for patch notes

with patience

[hoary zephyr]

@pale jetty Already posted about it

also this

which is a bigger thing

[pale jetty]

ah

they hotfixed eon???

[hoary zephyr]

according to scari yes

[pale jetty]

hmm

i go test

[tawdry tree]

what bug is there w/eon?

[livid ferry]

the one where it does a million damage

[delicate osprey]

niiice

that one was going to be quite lanky

[hoary zephyr]

ye

[pale jetty]

the bug still works

maybe not implemented yet?

gonna test it out on nw boss

yeah no

it was not fixed

[autumn jungle]

maybe tomorrow

or the weekly resets don't include minor fixes

[delicate osprey]

chances are he was counting on the NA reset tomorrow

[autumn jungle]

and then our logs will be covered in red

[rare ether]

I may have lied - I think we literally just got the tech

[hoary zephyr]

Bug still works?

[rare ether]

So it’s fixed tomorrow but bc of ptr builds will@lag behind

[hoary zephyr]

yeah I think scari said it will be later

ya

oh wait he is right there

[pale jetty]

ah okay

that makes sense i guess

[rare ether]

Ya sry, but the end is in sight

[nova nexus]

mmm new ptr builds. can’t wait

[hoary zephyr]

the end of sub is nigh

the light at the end of the tunnel

[buoyant gyro]

I'm not sure if I trust this Scarizard guy though. Can we have Push check his sekrit channels first to confirm? 😄

[hoary zephyr]

something something rogue utility

[buoyant gyro]

Can we be like Hunters and demand CoMPEnSAtION for the bug fix?

[plucky storm]

Thanks for the bug fixes, -5% on ranged dps pls

[hoary zephyr]

Ranged isnt the one taking our spot

its Warriors and DH

[buoyant gyro]

Gonna need an extra 5% DPS to maintain my parsing lifestyle

[plucky storm]

It’s not about the spot

It’s about sending a message

[potent vault]

Hey Koji this aint related

[hoary zephyr]

True

[potent vault]

but I saw you fighting the honest fight in the WCL discord

[buoyant gyro]

(I actually never did the dagger bug. Not for lack of trying. But our Holy Paladin kept messing up the timing and I gave up 🤣 )

[hoary zephyr]

we should just bribe every content creator to put rogue in shit tier list so we get buffed

[plucky storm]

Oh so that’s why your parses are trash got it got it

[buoyant gyro]

Yep

[nova nexus]

just buff NF assa 5%

[hoary zephyr]

wow CFs and SBs ABUSING bugs

WOW

[plucky storm]

Die

[buoyant gyro]

My lousy 97% with no bugs and no externals would be a 99% in non-degen lifetime. It's sadness.

[nova nexus]

buff MfD 25%?

[hoary zephyr]

honestly

[plucky storm]

Go troll skip in outlaw or something

[hoary zephyr]

bring back Anticipation

[plucky storm]

[hoary zephyr]

good talent

remove Alacrity

[nova nexus]

what’s outlaw?

[plucky storm]

Good answer, that was a test

[buoyant gyro]

Outlaw is what I'm playing next reset. I'm abandoning you all in this channel tomorrow.

[nova nexus]

gl have fun with Skip & Guy

[buoyant gyro]

When you get rid of all the dirty external padders I'll come back

[plucky storm]

Do you want me to take the green name and replace it with piss yellow now or tomorrow

[buoyant gyro]

Can't wait to go up like 100 all-star ranks when all the dagger logs get exploit flagged, ngl 🤣

[nova nexus]

share the screen with Koji that I shared with you

[plucky storm]

Oh oh

Yes

Koji dm inc

[hoary zephyr]

what the

what is this secret dm shit

[nova nexus]

you’re welcome @buoyant gyro

if you know you know

[hoary zephyr]

well I dont know

because

I am not told

[nova nexus]

good observation

[sleek mortar]

purge all the DS logs pls and ty

[hoary zephyr]

ur fried

[sleek mortar]

probably

[autumn jungle]

Check dates on top logs, DS is dead

[sleek mortar]

wait isn't that the extended prepull? the DS leggo, or am i confusing leggos

[plucky storm]

DS logs have a free slice and dice THEY MUST BE ELIMINATED

[autumn jungle]

Extended is dust

[sleek mortar]

ohh yeah i meant that one

[autumn jungle]

DS is deathly shadows

[nova nexus]

just eliminate Sub altogether. back to 9.0 and the 250 parses.

fresh start

[delicate osprey]

back to palace with 2 parses

pog

[nova nexus]

3, i think mystlers were hidden

[delicate osprey]

oh mine were too

i had big 100s

fight to the death with grimzyo

or maybe mistler rekt us we'll never know

[buoyant gyro]

Don't think Mystler's were hidden

He just uses a non-obvious character name 😛

[delicate osprey]

idk hard to be hidden when there were literally 2 of us LOL

maybe he played sub more in nya lotha

[buoyant gyro]

Think he always played Sub? idk

He was R29 in post-nerf II Nya

I don't think his guild killed Azshara though so his ranking was a bit lower in 8.2

[nova nexus]

he always played sub, they were not hidden

but yeah not obvious name

[delicate osprey]

oh that makes sense

yea tbh i only really looked at za kul and azshara

those were the funny ones

were it was 1vs 1

and even then my guild kinda did me dirty that tier and deleted all logs

[neat dagger]

Hey guys, what is bugged about the set at the moment ? Can some1 explain me?

[feral schooner]

The interactions between some legendarys is not working. And some other stuff.

[neat dagger]

but the basic things work, 2p and 4p?

[wind furnace]

there are some minor things that don't work

but its in the pins here or in #subtlety

[mellow urchin]

not sure i would call them minor

4-piece Shadowstrikes aren’t triggering the 2-piece

this is big

4-piece Shadowstrike’s aren’t triggering Akaari’s Soul Fragment’s legendary effect

this is decently big

Animacharged Combo Points from Kyrian’s Echoing Reprimand aren’t increasing the 4-piece’s chance to proc

this is also decently big

those 3 together is prob what, 6-7%

dps

a 3rd of the entire set value

at least

[wind furnace]

hard to say, but should be quite a bit yes.

[mellow urchin]

so the dps you see on PTR atm

is a lot weaker

than the set will be with bugfixes

[wind furnace]

hard to say how much the kyrian bug is

akaaris isn't big

[mellow urchin]

the daggers when they got fixed to work with anima cp in sim

it was like 2% right

this is bigger than that

[wind furnace]

not sure

[mellow urchin]

and if you compare blades uptime ingame to what the sim is getting the 4p not giving 2p

is like 15-20%

blades uptime

[wind furnace]

but it def. means more strike casts

[mellow urchin]

it means more strikes, it means more cps, it means more 2p

it means more akaari

it adds up

so idk, maybe the ptr version is actually how strong the set will be after nerfs

[wind furnace]

we haven't seen nerfs so far

[mellow urchin]

i know

[wind furnace]

also you need to consider that the content on ptr is m+

what means kyrian specific bugs are less relevant and you usually go finality over akaaris

[mellow urchin]

not for me it isnt

i just hit dummy

[wind furnace]

okay fair

[mellow urchin]

also in m+ the bugs should be even worse

since you get 0 blades uptime in aoe

[wind furnace]

i just always assume that people want to do content on ptr, and the main content outside of raid testing is m+

[plucky storm]

Pushnoir, Dummy Gamer

[mellow urchin]

very few ppl play the ptr

but

the 4p not giving 2p

hurts m+

[plucky storm]

Yeh

[mellow urchin]

quite a lot

basically means ur doing m+ without a 2p unless its st

[wind furnace]

4p not giving fw might be bigger for m+

[mellow urchin]

no?

its not like ur starving from FW in m+

shuriken storm has like 60% crit

[wind furnace]

fair, did anyone test if it was worth to go less crit heavy?

[mellow urchin]

set isnt working so

idk

perhaps in a future where the set is giving fw and when you get blades in cleave/aoe, there is room to try different stats etc

but as it stands, all testing feels kinda redundant

[wind furnace]

I talked about simulations rather than actual in game testing

but i agree, without nerfs comming it might not be worth it

[lunar fractal]

So do we have a different currency for the legendaries in 9.2?

[mellow urchin]

yes

cosmic flux

[nova nexus]

there’s a new currency in 9.2. it’s used for legos and other things (tier “crafting”). it’s easy to get

[mellow urchin]

afaik

[nova nexus]

you still need the ash and cinders of a rank 6 + the flux to craft a brand new rank 7. if you’re upgrading a 6 you need the rank 7 base item and the cosmic flux

[mellow urchin]

theres going to be new vessels?

[nova nexus]

yes

https://youtu.be/D3txmGZHKXo

this explains all of it, including crafting.

the cosmic flux legit takes like 20 minutes to find 4 treasure chests so it’s rather irrelevant at current currency rates

you’ll also get it from raid, m+, pvp and a trivial amount from torghast if you still have any desire to go there

[mellow urchin]

torghast is fine

atm

legit not even bad anymore

[nova nexus]

I agree, but it’s nightmare fuel for some. I think right now a lvl16 gives 100 ish flux. you’d have to run it 7 times at a “low” item level vs finding a few of the “not very rare” treasure chests

[lunar fractal]

Hopefully the legendary base items won't be like fucking 600k gold again

[nova nexus]

the currency probably have more impact on tier piece blp than legos

unless they adjust costs

[nova nexus]

everyone and their brother going after 30ilvl gains that look to be usable right away after having your dps neutered from shards? that’s some copium

[lunar fractal]

I mean it looks me months to buy the 262 legendary because the price never went down

[nova nexus]

only way prices go down is if blizzard makes the crafting easier

there’s a big investment to get to the point of making the vessels

or they put the vessels on a vendor and anger the crafting community

[mellow urchin]

ye we are spending millions of gold on vessels cus we buy material and craft them ourselves for raiders

its very expensive

and its bullshit

because every patch there is a new rank

so yay, gonna spend another 5 mil i guess

[nova nexus]

they’re this expansions money dump

and when there are people sitting on 3 gold capped characters, they’ll toss whatever at the crafters just to get it.

[lunar fractal]

And the people without money suffer for a long time

Because if people pay that much money for it why would you offer it for less on the auction house

[nova nexus]

welcome to wow imitating the real world

if it’s not going to matter for your rate of progression, just run with a 262 and farm the mats for the vessel

[wind furnace]

the problem is a economical tbh

people just play the market demand game, thats why prices skyrocket

[nova nexus]

no the problem is the amount of gold dumped into getting the recipes maxed

which drained the market of materials

[wind furnace]

i assume a global ah would limit doing this as the market would be a lot bigger.
But auctions beeing realm specific its fairly easy to control the market

[nova nexus]

but yeah don’t play on a low pop server

[mellow urchin]

playing on my realm as a small guild

is prob not doable

we have to move entire guilds with items from other servers to be able to sustain raiding

cus theres simply no items on our AH

cant wait for global AH or whatever

would make sense

server economy is fucking over too many realms

[nova nexus]

the amount of gold that gets move across realms always feels crazy to me. wonder just how much blizzard pulls in from that just from guilds pushing HoF

[mellow urchin]

ye idk

we are just 1 guild, quite modest in doing this

and we send like 2 gbanks per tier

its nothign compared to like the top guilds spending up to 500 mil in a tier

[nova nexus]

yeah. i bought the two 262 on the rogue i could see myself needing. need to sort out the warrior still, arms uses belt and head so maybe doing a unity craft on another piece

[crisp lichen]

wish that wasnt a thing for us ngl

[nova nexus]

i’ll farm up mats for the 291 stuff as it won’t matter for our prog

[mellow urchin]

can imagine, it has sort of spiralled out of control i guess

[crisp lichen]

for sure

[mellow urchin]

rwf funding wow by itself

dont need no casuals

[nova nexus]

are the cloth legos cheaper at all with the ease of the mat farm? i hadn’t ever really looked.

[mellow urchin]

i thought so, then i bought 262 for my priest and its like similar cost

quite stupid

its like my main problem with playing alts rn

spending 100k on legendary vessel

[nova nexus]

i think rings are about 150k right now on my server

neck a little cheaper

[lunar fractal]

I'm playing the most populated server and even then it's not like there's too much

Or prices go down

Still bs but can imagine how much crappier it must be on a low pop server

[nova nexus]

stuff gonna keep inflating as we get closer to a new tier. waiting for pots to skyrocket again

[mellow urchin]

its bad cus the low pop realm guilds

go to high pop realms

and steal their mats from the AH

so some high pop realm AHs are like global AHs in a way

[lunar fractal]

Exactly

[mellow urchin]

guess its not too bad atm

[lunar fractal]

Stop stealing my stuff Push 😠

[mellow urchin]

but less than 10 vessels on almost every single piece

[nova nexus]

look at the r4 prices

[mellow urchin]

this is fucked tho, how is 3 cloth vessels the most expensive

some fucking joker putting these out

180k dood, ok

[nova nexus]

262 prices down. have to sort out warrior recrafts

leather pieces still most expensive

[west basalt]

249 prices are more expensive because no one is buying them. So nobody wants to trade them

[mellow urchin]

that literally doesnt make sense

"nobody wants to buy them"

"oh i know, make them cost 200k gold, that will sell em!"

[west basalt]

You have to sell them at loss if you want to sell them.

I myself sell some legendary. I just don’t bother changing price of 249 when I have some in bags. I know that if I want to sell them it’s at loss

So you fast list them. Either you don’t sell them but you didn’t lost time, either someone bought the wrong legendary and you won

At the end I have sold my last 249 I did for leveling my profession at loss now I cba crafting them

[nova nexus]

you can try to inflate the average cost overtime and then sell it reduced

basically tricking some bad tsm bot setups

the crafting to get max rank are just basically loss leaders. and expensive ones at that.

[wind furnace]

btw. just because it might be relevant in discussions for 9.2

necrolord does seem to lose out to venthyr even in sustained cleave, what makes it even less relevant

daily dose on complaining how bad necrolord is is done with that i guess

[lunar fractal]

Was doing a PF yesterday with my guild and they asked me to go necrolord

I started laughing

[forest hamlet]

I'm not a PvP player myself, but I think in PvP it's good. Guess that's why some rogues actually are Necro and Blizz gets skewed numbers. "Well there are some players playing Necro, so I guess it's fine."

[lunar fractal]

I'm sure they can figure out who plays what for what reason 😛

[wind furnace]

pvp is quite diffrent from pve tho

[mellow urchin]

also its fine if necrolord is used in at least 1 part of the game

[hoary zephyr]

A lot of people don’t play necro as sub in PvP tho

There is a large % that play Kyrian or Venthyr

[livid ferry]

You broke or what

[lunar fractal]

You not?

[livid ferry]

Im not cant afford 180k lege broke

[pliant minnow]

"why yes i will spend 20$ on a lego"....lol

[nova nexus]

are you can you not afford 400k broke?

[livid ferry]

Nah i could

Idk if i would tho 💀

[nova nexus]

ok let’s laugh at the poor then

[livid ferry]

Push does sales he can afford it

[nova nexus]

push also launders money from the guild bank, or so I’ve been told.

typical people in power kinda things

[mellow urchin]

i can afford it

feels bad to buy tho

[livid ferry]

Just buy a different slot

[nova nexus]

no slacking on the new main

[livid ferry]

True

It is the new main

Can’t cheap out

[nova nexus]

different slot is like playing outlaw in keys

[buoyant gyro]

If you think that’s bad try actually being on a low pop realm. 😛

Literally have to pay fucking double for everything haha

[mellow urchin]

i am on a low pop realm

wdym

[livid ferry]

what soulbinds on kyrian sub : o

[buoyant schooner]

mika

[livid ferry]

oki

[nova nexus]

you’re safe from NF here

[buoyant gyro]

Oh. lol your prices look surprisingly reasonable compared to our backwater server 😛

kill me now

[nova nexus]

based off Wow thriving in EU. their low pop server is probably a high pop sever in NA

[wind furnace]

thats why i think a global auction house would benefit everyone

[livid ferry]

taking my chances with sub instead

[wind furnace]

esp. with the "reworked" auction house interface

[livid ferry]

so how essential are the anime charged Combo points

it feels really annoying to try and hit them when you randomly get 1 CP

[buoyant gyro]

Yeah the AH situation just kinda blows

This is just daily life on a low pop server

Everything marked up the ass

Sharpening Stones at 85g instead of the US Median of 22g 🤣

[civic terrace]

Ye its not great

[wind furnace]

i think the idea of having crafting items that you need for end game
with insanely high material requirements is outdated.

there is not a big complain about oils/stones because they are essentially trivial to optain

but while legendary items have a argument for being "legendary" in quality, it seems like old xpacs did grasp the concept better in rewarding those with questlines

in a sense, esp. when there is such a big focus in the experience of a player, getting a item from a iconic character for a great cause is inherently better than collecting materials for hours to craft them yourself

[nova nexus]

it’s not exactly random. 50/50 on 3rd auto attack, 100 on 4th auto

[livid ferry]

I see, learned something new

[wind furnace]

there is a weakaura in #subtlety-faq that helps you keep track of it

[livid ferry]

Ooh :0

I’m gonna try and learn sub from scratch so I may ask some dumb questions

[wind furnace]

thats fine

[livid ferry]

You never want to use shadowstrike to refresh snd and rupture right?

or rather a dance

Also optimal timing to refresh snd? I’ve been spoiled by infinite assassination snd uptime

[wind furnace]

we should move that discussion to #subtlety
but the base idea is to refresh rupture outside of dance

[livid ferry]

yeah my

Bad

[wind furnace]

all fine

[hoary zephyr]

NF broke you that much huh

[livid ferry]

Yes

But also the sub tier is really fun

[livid ferry]

I’ll be back for round 25 again

Idk I felt like I really wasn’t doing anything wrong

[wind furnace]

it will get nerfed, just to make that clear

[livid ferry]

Yee I know

I just like the feel

Resets are fun

If they change the resetting bit I’ll be kinda sad

Is it the back to back resets that make it overpowered?

[wind furnace]

rly comes down to tuning

tuning could be more towards the average output

but the design has some flaws with that

e.g. we discussed in here that lowering the proc chance is not the wanted goal because we want consistency

[delicate osprey]

yea a lot of people will like the reactive part to it

im just waiting for numbers on nerfs

[wind furnace]

yet keeping high impact from procs means lowering consistency

[delicate osprey]

then we can see what happens

they can always change to one of every x finishers etc

so you can actually plan

i actually kinda like that one

[elder cloak]

Watched jpc do 5k DPS less than survival hunter in keys today

And it's only getting worse 😩

[wind furnace]

at least this means there is a balacing problem.
If you want to keep the excitemet high for procs, you need to keep the impact fairly good
If you want to keep it consistente, you need to keep the proc chance high

[livid ferry]

I’m fine with number nerfs ig, resets were just fun

[delicate osprey]

survival is kinda busted and dps has never been a dps juggernaut

[wind furnace]

but there is no way to keep both

so you need to sacrifice something

[livid ferry]

survival is still giga bugged

[wind furnace]

e.g. having a lower duration of shadow blades on 2p is potentially not that problematic given that it is already a low impact proc

lowering the damage from 4p strike damage feels similar as it allows to indirectly keep gameplay similar

removing the combo point gain from the 4p however would be a more noticable cut

[livid ferry]

Yeah I wouldn’t like that

I rather have the damage from the strike damage be cut instead

Personally

[wind furnace]

What could be done is to isolate how much each part impacts the general result

and then adjust based on that

[livid ferry]

Removing the combo point gain would make the tier feel boring and passive

Imo

[nova nexus]

and then there’s the boss fights.

[livid ferry]

😳

[feral schooner]

Sim yourself for a 1min Bossfight you should be able to reach 20k np with mythic gear

[plucky storm]

Please buff rogue

@warcraftdev

[autumn jungle]

That's bait, He is doing 15s with randos XD

[nova nexus]

@ warcraftdev can you give the rogue on the ledge a parachute to jump with ?

[plucky storm]

Ouch

Rip that guy

[nova nexus]

apparently the pugs kicked his ass by 5k?

[nova nexus]

whoops

[autumn jungle]

He probably talks about gingi? When he was doing ptr keys with jpc

Earlier

[nova nexus]

confirmed. sky still falling. we’re fucked

everyone reroll spriest

[autumn jungle]

Push has too much influence here lol

[nova nexus]

we just ignore yellow names for the most part

you’ll still that aoe cap don’t matter 🧢

[plucky storm]

Having a level head = too much influence

[autumn jungle]

Bro I haven't played outlaw since 9.0, I just like the color

[livid ferry]

confused im watching stream on ptr, but when i log onto ptr it says offline

🤔

[autumn jungle]

Streamer privelege

[livid ferry]

lmao

yo

[delicate osprey]

wrong channel

[livid ferry]

ye

deleting

[mellow urchin]

ramping

[pliant minnow]

im really suprised this didnt happen.

[elder cloak]

Yeah with gingi, over 20k overall in HoA or something

[hoary zephyr]

PTR update

[nova nexus]

bring on the nerfs

i mean set rework.

[mellow urchin]

i mean bugfixes

[nova nexus]

all of the above? heh

[mellow urchin]

who else is getting the set axe

make ur bets

holy paladin?

prot paladin?

[nova nexus]

fury

[mellow urchin]

enhancement shaman surely must be nerfed

survival hunter perhaps

[nova nexus]

holy is safe i think with the talent nerfs

[wind furnace]

i wish i had data on how strong sets are for each spec

could potentially run some sims

[pale jetty]

Some class discords just uh

Um

Their "sims" are very interesting

Unironically full feelcraft

So not even they have data

[wind furnace]

tier sets seem implemented for most classes

[pale jetty]

Yeah at this point surely

[wind furnace]

i mean, even if looking at early numbers is nice

the reality is that tier set implementation is mostly to optimize/test and update the apl

and barely relevant before 9.2 for the rest

[nova nexus]

everything feels like a big secret these days from some of the discords

rogues just keep doing their thing

[livid ferry]

they'll also just

include dom sets in

for some reason

[nova nexus]

isn’t that just the default profile where they are disabled?

or did i miss other fun.

[wind furnace]

i forgot to remove one gem too

at the beginning

[livid ferry]

theres a difference between 1 gem

and an ENTIRE UNHOLY SET

[pale jetty]

Or the ones that do sim have these weird ass graphs that are almost unreadable and provide almost no good info

Fucking rainbow colour graphs except it's just lines going into infinity

[wind furnace]

seems like no rogue tier set changes in the ptr build

[pale jetty]

I saw a fkin pie chart once for sims

A PIE CHART

Idek, I'm so glad this discord exists, literally spoiled by it

[rare ether]

But I heard someone had secrets

[wind furnace]

👀 did i miss something?

[tawdry tree]

secrets?

[soft stratus]

did someone check if the bugs are fixed?

[wind furnace]

ohh, the meme of pushs secret group

[silver stratus]

any buff all spec rogue?

[wind furnace]

sry my bad, forgot about it^^

[rare ether]

Tech for bugfixes got in today so next ptr likely; I never know when a chance is in this build or the next

Change*

[soft stratus]

I see, so I guess we check

[wind furnace]

there is no big hurry to it as long as its not present in 9.2

[soft stratus]

[delicate osprey]

yea it is mostly to kinda finish numbers and see if some things are worth to do

like the demon pv in dance thing etc

[wind furnace]

I need to double check the entire PV logic and tier set optimizations after tuning

its luckily not that much

[delicate osprey]

yep that is like almost the only thing left to do

well that and seeing how some trinkets work but still

a whole month or so left etc

[wind furnace]

i mean koji already hinted it, i have a lot of rly minor optimizations too i need to double check

need to see when i have more time on hand to go over all of them

[feral schooner]

Does it include already the tuning changes?

[wind furnace]

mapko

can you pls not ping devs

[feral schooner]

Sorry did not want to bother or so

[potent vault]

Thats another 1%

taken off

[feral schooner]

Just asking a question I would do in the forums

[rare ether]

Ideally we can have them all hit at the same time, but I can’t promise anything other than both the bug fixes and tuning are coming

[feral schooner]

sorry for it

[hoary zephyr]

Scari I have some secrets

but they are not for 9.2

:^)

[feral schooner]

Thank you for the information about the when the tuning is coming

[robust lotus]

PARDON

[pale jetty]

[nova nexus]

are the as good as Skip’s hot takes in the wowhead comments

[hoary zephyr]

Nah good legit ones

Not sharing tho or else my friend will get mad

[nova nexus]

sounds good

[whole prism]

So watching JPC the CDR power is definitely bugged with its interaction with covenant abilities right?

[plucky storm]

yes

[whole prism]

But we still gain huge from this with the flag internal CDR as well?

Even when fixed

[plucky storm]

I mean as much as getting more flags is a "gain huge"

we're not really that cooldown based

[nova nexus]

clearly it’s meant for necro sub for EVEN MOAR

[delicate osprey]

tbh the vers on obedience is quite good for general def too

also cleave stonks on rupture hasteee kek

[thick wren]

having a chat with dev makes my heart so warm, I hope rogues won't turn into dk/paladin/dh community that are always unhappy with their state, even when it's pretty og

[mellow urchin]

We are way past that

[winged fiber]

rogue op or else

[wind furnace]

tbh i think rogue is quite happy with their state in 9.1(.5)

9.2 is more uncertain given that balancing will have a high impact how viable each spec is

there is also the tier set that introduces a lot of randomness to the spec what is not nessecery something appreciated

[thick wren]

I read your post and while I agree with that, I had lots of fun in raid testing. I definately don't want 4pc to get nerfed, but life is life, and for +7ilvl daggers we gotta sacrifice something D:

[wind furnace]

i don't think that the 7 itemlevel will make a big diffrence

[mellow urchin]

*it wont make any difference for how bad/good we are in raid

[wind furnace]

exactly

[nova nexus]

have you played DK at any point in SL? the gameplay is miserable for both specs. they have every right to be upset.

UH was op for 9.0 but the gameplay was so bad.

[thick wren]

my first full sod clear was as a dk, as many other aotc. So yeah I know a thing or two. And yeah, the reason I constantly leaving DK is because same buttons being pressed in same way for a decade bores me

yet dk are clearly not the weakest melee, not in CN, not in SoD

[nova nexus]

in CN you had AMZ and well, then you didn’t.

when a spec has 12 or so globals for its opener and almost all on the gcd with a load of downtime between each unless you’re getting PI it’s just bad. if they took em off the gcd you would have been afk for majority of the opener. it’s just poor gameplay, but fits the big slow moving truck so it’s ok? idk

at some point I sincerely hope the game play loop becomes the priority of the spec design and tuning is balanced along that.

sub on beta was toxic as hell with what the design turned the spec into, but people loved pressing only 2 buttons basically because EZ Top DPS get good everyone else.

the non momentum DH community invaded this place in beta.

[mellow urchin]

i feel like frost is really cool

the idea of trying to extend something as long as possible be it voidform or breath of sindragosa has always appealed to me

i wish sub had something similar related to dance

instead of it being this CDR shit

you could have it be extended by CPs

and just 1 stack

remove symbols

1 min cd

ofc still gonna suck whenever you have downtime

but thats life

[wind furnace]

I did rly like the idea of sybols cdr in legion

[delicate osprey]

what do you mean denial was fire

just one sec moooore

[mellow urchin]

Ye

[wind furnace]

shb extension was fun too

[delicate osprey]

i loved that tier

[mellow urchin]

Extending cds by playing good is great gameplay imo

[delicate osprey]

sad that they nerfed it ayaya

[wind furnace]

i did like mid/late legion in general

but i am biased towards that spec iteration

[mellow urchin]

Breath of sindragosa is kinda like that

Min/max your resources to get a sick ass cd

Problem with frost is that it seems to be tuned around cleave/aoe so its st is usually not great

[wind furnace]

i mena i stay with my opinion that subtlety needs a signeture ability like dfa

and return to a short time burst in short intervals

[worn prawn]

id like for that dmg profile to come back for sub

[mellow urchin]

Ye shadowstrike and evis arent exactly cool spells, they feel like frostbolts, something you just spam all the time, there is no big finisher. Sec tech should be that

[wind furnace]

I don't mind those

[mellow urchin]

I think you use them too much

[wind furnace]

the problem is you spend 50-60% in shadow dance now

what makes shadow strike neither unique nor exciting

[mellow urchin]

ye its an ongoing thing with blizz i guess

[wind furnace]

hitting hard for a short time frame and then have downtime shortly before doing it again is exciting

[mellow urchin]

the spec identity is just weird

[wind furnace]

because you have the build up and reward

[mellow urchin]

we are legit like a havoc dh these days

just replace demonic meta with shadow dance

[wind furnace]

even if there is difference in opinion if this damage distribution is bursty or sustained

NV achived something similar

but i prefer a signature ability

[mellow urchin]

NV was cool

dark shadow was cool

even in BFA i didnt really like the gameplay with enveloping

just felt like you did no dmg in cds

and having 3 dance charges just seemed bad

[wind furnace]

Dark was not that significantly behind in bfa

so you could just play it

[mellow urchin]

ye i played dark a few times

[wind furnace]

at least for a certain period of the xpac

[mellow urchin]

mainly on bosses with adds

but enveloping was still the best talent in bfa as well

for st

[wind furnace]

having a insanely strong azerite power for dance made es more dominant

thats why ES was at least for the last 2 raids the go-to choice

[nova nexus]

it is, and yes tuning is usually the issue or it just being garbo for fights when you need 30 seconds of uptime to get the same dps results as say the BM hunter running around

[wind furnace]

Dark simply died in sl

but i also think its hard to maintain both dark and es

in a way that both stay relevant esp. with usually a big focus on binding temporary powers to dance

[mellow urchin]

ye

its actually insane that we have now gone over a year of SL and dark is still completely dead because 1 charge dance doesnt work

i feel like this feedback has been given

could just slap another charge on dark shadow

and voila

it works

but nah

[wind furnace]

problem is that dark is essentially ES if they slap 2 charges on it

[mellow urchin]

no

ES has cdr

ES gives you way more dance

[wind furnace]

es cdr is bigger but its not as dramatic

[mellow urchin]

isnt the uptime difference like

15%

or more

[wind furnace]

giveme a sec

[nova nexus]

es should just be the cdr

dark should be the amp

2 charges baseline

[mellow urchin]

ye

dark is still a worse ST dps option than ES

[wind furnace]

i did like the 2/3 charge split better

with lower dance duration

[nova nexus]

balance the cdr and the amp accordingly

[mellow urchin]

with 2 charges, but at least its playable

and an option

[wind furnace]

dance has 40% uptime on dark

[mellow urchin]

ye

55% with ES

thats what i assumed

[wind furnace]

62% on kyrian

[mellow urchin]

are you doing tier set

sims

[wind furnace]

so 22% less uptime

ye

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/v8GDoqMjJB5weEAcf2GJe4/simc

[mellow urchin]

ye you will still dance less

[wind furnace]

its significant less

and this is with dark optimizations being in now iirc

[nova nexus]

fdk I think along same lines would benefit from talents that allow you to change the focus of breath. an option for bigger burst vs an option for higher sustained.

[mellow urchin]

this sim is super weird fuu

[nova nexus]

vs being nearly unplayable on certain encounters because timings are so off

[wind furnace]

wdym?

[mellow urchin]

its holding shadow dance

until 11 seconds into the fight

[wind furnace]

weird

[mellow urchin]

what did you do when you made it just use those on cd

cus now it seems like its just not using dance during symbols

for no reason

[wind furnace]

sth seems wrong

it should cast it on cooldown

more or less

giveme a sec to investigate

i am also unsure about this

in the regular sim

[mellow urchin]

yea

[wind furnace]

ahh

its due to er

to hit 2 cp

[mellow urchin]

but its going to 3 cp

[wind furnace]

ye still seems to be a side effect of the condition

but letme quick check why the dark sim holds it that long

actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_combo_points&(variable.shd_threshold|!talent.enveloping_shadows.enabled|buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=1.2|buff.chaos_bane.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4&cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>10)&(buff.perforated_veins.stack<4|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>2)

this should trigger earlier

because !talent.enveloping_shadows.enabled should always make the 2nd part true

[mellow urchin]

weird

[wind furnace]

so basically just use it if you are on low cooldown and your pv stacks are low

well

the sequence is goated

[mellow urchin]

goated?

as in the greatest of all timed

[wind furnace]

vanish-strike like okay

then 2 finisher with 6 cp

[mellow urchin]

and pv

stacks

[wind furnace]

then bs to get rid of pv

ye

actually funny

[mellow urchin]

i mean it might be how you play it

if you get a proc

in your opener

still weird

but i guess theres not much to do

[wind furnace]

not using dance seems weird

letme try sth

i have a suspicion that there is room for optimization

doesen't look like it worked
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rn4k1NppkWGKy1gqfZ3o7s

[nova nexus]

poor DS.

[wind furnace]

i am still unsure if we rly want to delay due to er

[mellow urchin]

should probably just let it die in peace

[wind furnace]

giveme a sec to try a hack

[nova nexus]

how is DS as necrolord.

more spike filler time

[wind furnace]

XD

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tp4AHxVSo9P64TXUPhmXGV

gains

[nova nexus]

📈

[wind furnace]

(all i did was force dance earlier in the opener)

it seemed harmful to hold dance that long

its hacky tho, i need to see why its holding it so long now

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hFABmRFmscUZHCFQcZD7Qs

alright, that was a easy fix for dark

now i need to change ES tho

[mellow urchin]

gains

[wind furnace]

makes dark less bad

still need to see those .2% es win

[mellow urchin]

is there a 0.2% win

to be had

[wind furnace]

ye

probably found it:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nHonyLERQyry9XuHjUC8ei

but need to double check with other covenants

[nova nexus]

poor DS.

[delicate osprey]

i still cant even comprehend why did it need a 30% nerf on the talent

then you just nerf es anyway

[wind furnace]

the idea was to nerf es

and then buff dark

2nd part never happened

[nova nexus]

it’s on the todo list

[delicate osprey]

well if dark didnt get nerfed in the first place

[wind furnace]

haha ^^

[nova nexus]

for 10.0. lol

[delicate osprey]

it would have helped

[wind furnace]

oh ye

i thought you did complain about the es nerf in beta

but i think that was reasonable after the changes

[delicate osprey]

nah es was dirty

[nova nexus]

i think last time I used dark in pve was ghuun

[wind furnace]

i mean

[delicate osprey]

i played almost all of bfa with dark it was kinda hmm

[nova nexus]

I honestly don’t remember

[delicate osprey]

even played double trinket

was funny watching the meter go brrrrrrr

[nova nexus]

you were also chasing eviscerates

[wind furnace]

dark isn't insanely behind in slice anymore:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/79jKUaqJXX5Y9GvAJpSwrk

new = dark

[delicate osprey]

i mean after progress what do you want to do ahaha

i mean we have so much cdr in m+ now

[wind furnace]

thats like 1.5% dps

[nova nexus]

i’d like to know what after progress feels like. hahah oof

[delicate osprey]

if you gamba a lot of procs you can do some cool dmg

[nova nexus]

57% last night.

closer

[delicate osprey]

last platform is a joke last hard one is 2 and 3

[mellow urchin]

still like 270 dps

[nova nexus]

we have 2 sorted. three is inconsistent

[wind furnace]

i mean ngl

60%+ shd uptime sounds ... exciting

[mellow urchin]

[wind furnace]

63% atm

[mellow urchin]

not looking forward to that

[wind furnace]

thats with kyrian tho

[mellow urchin]

well ye

[nova nexus]

shadow priest also sounds exciting without the heavy dose of sarcasm

[mellow urchin]

imagine having cds

theres a reason i never wnated to play outlaw

the feeling of not having a cd

is trash

sub is getting into that territory

[nova nexus]

sub is the bursty cd spec without the actual burst or cds

[mellow urchin]

Burst

[delicate osprey]

continued shanks

[mellow urchin]

relic of the past

[nova nexus]

shadowy shank

thank you

i like my shanks purple

[wind furnace]

haha, i rly don't want to jump into a discussion what burst means or not

but i prefere a more compressed damage profile with high damage spikes in short intervals

over the current spread out one

[nova nexus]

legion

[mellow urchin]

i mean dance + symbols is like 11k dps during the cds rn

[nova nexus]

even on assa there’s at least a moment of satisfaction every 2 mins. then go back to mutilate shanks

[mellow urchin]

i dont think any rogue spec is bursty

[wind furnace]

its not

[mellow urchin]

its some heavy copium that assa is this giga burst spec

[wind furnace]

last time subtlety was bursty was wod or dfa

[nova nexus]

no. was talking about just rogue

our burst is hahah overall

“bUt U d3l3t3 p3ople iN pVPeee

[civic terrace]

Error 404, burst not found

[mellow urchin]

shadow dance + symbols burst

over 8.5 seconds

[nova nexus]

how much ramp does shadow need for that?

idk current spec at all

[mellow urchin]

and you might think, "hey assa is up there"

then you look at breakdown

ah yes

this is why

[wind furnace]

current balance enviroument

[mellow urchin]

thats shadow outside of cds

uhh wait nvm

[nova nexus]

are the cds 1 min or is that just with NF Priest

[mellow urchin]

its with the necrolord cov ability

you burst every 2 mins

as shadow

strict 2 min

[nova nexus]

our spriest pumps but I haven’t payed much attention to it

it’s usually me, the other rogue, our enhance and our sp as top boss dmg for sylv

depending on mechanics it rotates around

[mellow urchin]

this is during the 30 seconds of voidform

but afaik, our spriest gave away his PI to the enh shaman

for some reason

so its without PI

[nova nexus]

$$$$

[mellow urchin]

nah not even

idk why i am at 11k

might have gotten a bomb on the first set

yep, hate when it happens

[nova nexus]

i have a difficult time, with my smooth brain, seeing sub or assa as anything but mid tier for normal mythic guilds once 2L going.

[mellow urchin]

opener = get bomb

[wind furnace]

i mean the great thing about 9.2 is that you can go assassination

and enjoy a similar to flag like 1 min cooldown rotation

[mellow urchin]

enjoy

assa

doesnt compute

[nova nexus]

I’ll reskin it for you to look like sub.

[wind furnace]

holy

👀

📈

[nova nexus]

step away from the ES

[mellow urchin]

how did you find 100 dps

[wind furnace]

rotating dance better

[delicate osprey]

dance krangling that was happening

[nova nexus]

sims

[delicate osprey]

hide the script

[wind furnace]

tier set shananigans i asusme

ye

[delicate osprey]

[wind furnace]

i just like to sandbag

what else

XD

[nova nexus]

haha

[delicate osprey]

i mean may need more iterations it is so dicey we might still find some krangle

so many possible outcomes

as you can get blades on first strike and also proc wm aakari then wm

then you er rupture and maybe you get a 4p aakari etc

[wind furnace]

need to double check with venthyr tho

to see if i fucked other covenants

with my changes

[delicate osprey]

and first global of dance you are at 6 already kek

[wind furnace]

i think i had a sod backstab change somewhere

[delicate osprey]

nvm dust has our back

[wind furnace]

for .2% or so

but not sure

[delicate osprey]

weee already begin in dance

ahaha

[wind furnace]

the above is without bs in dance

[delicate osprey]

i can see pv being like a rollercoaster of emotions already

and then you also have to check if you have blades

[wind furnace]

PV is kinda like nv maybe

idk if you remeber nv

[delicate osprey]

to think hmm do i bs

oh you mean old perforate

[wind furnace]

but i had like 8? apl changes to optimize it

[delicate osprey]

oh for nights boi i was there yea

[wind furnace]

and ended up in the end fairly simple

[delicate osprey]

yea just use 1 rupture before evis and that was it lets goo

[wind furnace]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8DNJcPW88TdVGa5imcNixN

seems good

[delicate osprey]

might be more with gear from the next raid

still curious about what the jailer trinket does

do we know already?

[wind furnace]

need to see if anyone datamined/looked at it

but seems like there are a bunch of things to it

also... just to iterate on this

dark gameplay is questionable for subtlety standards

[delicate osprey]

yea shadowstrike centric gameplay just does not mesh well

[wind furnace]

no

i mean sending shadow dance on cd

[delicate osprey]

it would have worked better if we had multistrike like in WoD and could make rupture better with stabs

[wind furnace]

without any sync

[delicate osprey]

ah that is so funny tho

i also miss old weaponmaster every day

new one is ugh

[wind furnace]

okay for memes

lets compare it to alac

[delicate osprey]

notlikethis

[wind furnace]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gtUwougQvtQijbDWkp2v3J/simc

funny that alac and dark is both equally bad

[mellow urchin]

1 dance problems

[wind furnace]

ye

alac might be better on venthyr relatviely seen

now we just need to improve NF by 5% to beat kyrian

[lunar fractal]

Don't forget Necro

😦

[wind furnace]

secret apl change for necro to be #1 in dps: ||sry, necro is bad. enjoy the ||

jokes aside, there are 2 big issues with necro

first one is that the covenant specific legendary power is simply not good

second is that it does not work well with the subtlety toolkit and is buggy what makes it not very exciting

just for reference, necro is atm the best choice for cleave damage
but with tier set and double legendary in 9.2 its even losing in the niche that it did win in 9.1.5

[delicate osprey]

also sbs does not work with blades

[wind furnace]

would def be a big point for necro with tier set

[delicate osprey]

yes it would help make it cleave powerhouse and decent aoe

you can effectively sbs 10 targets after all

although i only heard bad things about the targeting so

meh

[wind furnace]

deathspike def. seems to have some bugs that could lower its efficiency

[livid ferry]

What is this?

Just spamming dance?

[wind furnace]

basically some optimization in dance use

dark/alacrity already "spam dance" but this is a small change/optimization that brings it up a bit more

[livid ferry]

Whats the optimizations

[mellow urchin]

it seems its just using dance on cd?

disregarding symbols cd

[wind furnace]

it does with dark/es yes

[mellow urchin]

so the change was to ES

[wind furnace]

the change is the removal of combo point conditions

[mellow urchin]

to make it dance all the time

[wind furnace]

for dark

[mellow urchin]

we're talking ES now