Sanguine depths and halls of attonement
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
livid ferry
Thats an outlier
Where as bfa
Bfa dungeons had actual themes behind them lol
Hard to like a dungeon when it has no character to it
At least to me
topaz merlin
I think the lvl 60 ones suffered from any story associated with them being locked behind cov campaigns you may not necessarily do.
Apart from Theater. I have no idea why we're there beyond "cos"
livid ferry
Although idk I personally don’t really like the theme of SL in general so
This afterlife shit is kinda residentsleeper
mellow urchin
legion had some banger dungeons
wind furnace
I think SL could have a very open theme
mellow urchin
we didnt get to run it this timewalking period
wind furnace
they just didn't emphasize on it enough
mellow urchin
but arcway was a personal favourite
livid ferry
Nah this afterlife thing is just boring idk
wind furnace
I think Legion had few rly bad dungeons
mellow urchin
the way you unlocked it and how it worked together with your progress in suramar, just 
wind furnace
suramar was also its own story line, quite unique
topaz merlin
I think SL could have a very open theme
I think the reason why they didn't do this is due to the prevalence of things like snapping and Blizz wanting to lower the knowledge ceiling for more casuals. Not have every tank from +10 up know all the BiS snap spots.
livid ferry
^
mellow urchin
even if its cus of janky code
livid ferry
Skill expression and not even necessary to time anything thats not super high lmao
topaz merlin
(Isn't a bad thing to be more clear)
livid ferry
Even like really late into mdi seasons
People were finding new snaps
Thats super dope
mellow urchin
nah but if blizz actively tries to avoid snapping.. then idk
focus on other things
wind furnace
its part of speedrunning content
livid ferry
Seeing snapping as a bad design is dumb to me
wind furnace
to find bugs like snap spots and similar and use it
topaz merlin
Am I not allowed to say the R word?
wind furnace
its filetred yes
topaz merlin
Let's try this again a bit less ass holish then.
wind furnace
I think its the responsibility of the mdi to allow/disallow certain bugs
livid ferry
Snapping to me is a less egregious thing than
topaz merlin
It becomes a problem when some mentally less than stellar DPS considers themselves the next MDI Grand Champ in their +15 weekly no leaver and demands the tank pulls like Noawh.
livid ferry
Plagueborers fex
wind furnace
just like in speedrunning, you will always find stuff that is allowed/not allowed in the category
livid ferry
It becomes a problem when some mentally less than stellar DPS considers themselv...
This will happen regardless
mellow urchin
plagueborers just unfun
livid ferry
Those types of people will always be dickheads about m+ in their +15s
That you can literally time while asleep
I carried a guild key that was 2 tanks 2 healers
wind furnace
one example of something i personally am against vs. the decision of blizz was the last great push event when echo exploited a bug to get ahead. I personally would have labeled it as exploit and forbit it.
livid ferry
Assholes will be assholes
topaz merlin
Me and a couple of friends have done a few 5 tank keys for the lulz
livid ferry
Ye it was hilarious fun
topaz merlin
At 15+. I think the last one was a 17.
livid ferry
They need to stop making shit like plagueborers in dungeons
Ppl dont want to use some dumb fuck mob to kill the dungeon
topaz merlin
one example of something i personally am against vs. the decision of blizz was t...
If they had done it the moment it was seen then I agree. What I think happened there is they didn't rule immediately. Perhaps for not realising what was happening so they let it slide.
livid ferry
All people want is to pull like 20 mobs that has like 3 important kicks and just blast hard as fuck
topaz merlin
It sucks to lose and hour of a limited time event to a stray to then have it disallowed.
wind furnace
My prblem with it is that this comes down to compatitive integrity
to draw a line what is allowed and whats not
it shouldn't come down to a "last second" decision from a generalized question of a team
topaz merlin
Yeah. Echo kinda went about it in a sus fashion. Going as far to practice it on unmonitored live realms.
Iirc.
wind furnace
but the default should be, if its a exploit -> its forbidden
topaz merlin
Where is the line between exploit and creative use of game mechanics?
mellow urchin
they dont know themselves
rewind back to Tomb of Sargeras mythic prog where 1 rwf guild was told to not do something and another rwf guild got a free pass doing that exact same thing
meaning 1 guild had to do it hardmode
topaz merlin
Many of these players come from guilds used to pushing that limit for world firsts. And being bitten by it. What was the boss where Method killed it legit after checking if they could do something only to have 2nd-5th guilds just using what they were told they couldn't?
wind furnace
having it like this precedence case means people get benefits from creating a unfair environment where hiding bugs/exploits is beneficial instead of a competitive environment that gives everyone equal chances.
mellow urchin
Many of these players come from guilds used to pushing that limit for world firs...
it was solo soaking the hammer on maiden
which isnt even an exploit
they were just told to not do it
cus it wasnt the "intention" of the design
wind furnace
Where is the line between exploit and creative use of game mechanics?
i don't know having missdirect up for the entire dungeon that allowes else undoable pulls/skips sound for me more towards exploit than "clever use of game mechanics"
topaz merlin
Was it Maiden Push?
wind furnace
a boss in tomb of sageras
topaz merlin
Lol. I stepped into a lift.
wind furnace
just look at nzoth
limit did find out that you can "clever use" game mechanics to stop the boss from doing anything
and did get stopped by blizz for doing so
There are a lot of gray area bosses, and there was no clear "this is fine" vs. "this is a exploit"
mellow urchin
Was it Maiden Push?
yes
wind furnace
i remember big discussions about the helya strategy that did spawn adds outside of the boss zone what did basically remove parts of intended things from the fight.
mellow urchin
limit did find out that you can "clever use" game mechanics to stop the boss fro...
this was NOT similar to anything else
in this game
it was very very clearly a huge bug lmao
boss just didnt do anything for 30% hp
ok
solo soaking a hammer on maiden is peanuts
compared to that
so i can 100% understand that being labeled as an exploit
topaz merlin
Wasn't that why they just despawned N'zoth to fix it?
wind furnace
yes, my point is just that there is no consietent line
mellow urchin
i mean if something just doesnt work, thats quite consistent
wind furnace
and hence, you have in the wfr and in mdi often situations that you are unsure if its good or not
mellow urchin
a full removal of the boss
wind furnace
they did basically despawn it on the entire shard of the instance
so not only for limit but for a lot of other guilds too
topaz merlin
I thought it was NA wide.
livid ferry
If you find a way to just make a mech not happen thats def an exploit
mellow urchin
ye it was all of NA
livid ferry
Echoes use of the fatescribe tank trinket on KT on the other hand
Cleve use of game mechs
wind furnace
oh, it was entire region O.O, i always thought it was just the instance server shard
topaz merlin
But yeah. When Blizz allow guilds to exist in a grey area in one form of competitive content (whether that is officially blizz sanctioned or not), those same players will take a similar attitude to the other things.
And after Tomb there was, according to Sco himself, a definite shift in mentality to ask for forgiveness and not permission.
(At least according to him mid stream.)
lunar fractal
oh, it was entire region O.O, i always thought it was just the instance server s...
Not like a lot of other guilds were on nzoth then lol
mellow urchin
ye well when you get fucked like they got on maiden
wind furnace
i mean it makes sense
mellow urchin
Not like a lot of other guilds were on nzoth then lol
normal, heroic as well
topaz merlin
Not like a lot of other guilds were on nzoth then lol
It included heroic.
wind furnace
not disclosing bugs means you get advanages
lunar fractal
Ah heroic too?
I didn't get that much
Thought it was limited to mythic
Get it
Limit
🚪
topaz merlin
Circling back to the original point. An ideal wish for 10.0 would be for more dungeons that allow for more creative or diverse routing through them. I wouldn't even be against a dungeon with 3 paths. The first sucks for melee, the second sucks for ranged, and the third is a best of both worlds.
Or just having more risk/reward trade offs. Like you can pull this dangerous stuff that gives more count and allows you to skip later while also taking less time but it is also skippable stuff which is easier but takes longer to get the same count.
wind furnace
legion allowed insane pulls
you could in theory pull nearly the entire dungeon in 1 pull
well, if you manage to survive the potential lag and other issues that come from that
topaz merlin
That would be cool but I can't see Blizz returning to nigh invincible tanks. As far as I remember the issue was never tanks surviving those pulls but DPS.
wind furnace
bfa/sl have a diffrent design approach that should reduce big pulls
hard to say if legion was better in all directions, maybe both approaches have positives
pale jetty
Yo damn
Assa got fucked
Sub channel but still
Our tooltip now says 15 yards
Theirs says 40%
mellow urchin
ye it was dunked
buoyant gyro
Dunked less than I expected tbh
feral schooner
lol sub aoe king
buoyant gyro
sin got f up 60% nerf
The 2pc is absolutely busted lol, 100% was getting nerfed to some degree. Honestly could have been as low as like 25% reasonably speaking
feral schooner
They'll probably be fine
true true. Assa gets strong with 2nd legendary
buoyant gyro
Was a 15% 2pc at 100%
feral schooner
I just hope outlol stays bad. I hate that spec
pliant minnow
That would be cool but I can't see Blizz returning to nigh invincible tanks. As ...
def wasnt tanks dying lol, i def miss legions style from a "fun" perspective, it was a game of how much could you pull and not fall over to me + valor means we can feel good about going back to lower keys again and just pull wall to wall and blast 😄
i like it
wind furnace
i like rotten + obedience
also 40% is still extremely good on assassination
we need to keep in mind that sub will also see tuning changes
the 40% sims from whispyr put the tier set still at around 15-18% relative dps
so there is hope that the sub changes won't be that big
winged fiber
hopefully
i did a ton of double leggo testing with multiple specs from my guild
everyone had full buffs + lust etc 6 minute pulls
we really don't seem that broken
especially with double leggos
other classes can def beat / keep up
hoary zephyr
i did a ton of double leggo testing with multiple specs from my guild
is there testing rn?
wind furnace
subtlety is just not great with double legendary
because other specs exist with absurd ones
hoary zephyr
its available for testing atm
yes
uh
Idk if we will have any legendary tuning for us tbh
I dont see it happening
feral schooner
the 40% sims from whispyr put the tier set still at around 15-18% relative dps
how good is outlol?
wind furnace
not sure
feral schooner
like I dont mind playing sub or assa for progression just not outlol
wind furnace
i think its still behind in output
winged fiber
crazy that they just left it capped and tuned low
for aoe
said we don't fuck with pirates lol
wind furnace
the target cap is def. a big discussion topic for the spec
winged fiber
i mean when ww, arms, fury, survival, dk all these specs have uncapped aoe and or more damage
and outlaw doesn't
kinda just feels like you got the shaft lol
stark sierra
feral schooner
I just do not like the rtb stuff since legion
its so bad imo
the target cap doesnt help either
wind furnace
i think uncapping is a better discussion for the outlaw channel
rtb isn't that big of a issue anymore i feel, it can always be better tho
feral schooner
true sorry for spam
wind furnace
its not spam, there is a concern about it since they announced the uncap.
so there is merit in that conversation, its just better suited to the outlaw channel
ocean ridge
are the bug fixes in from the post from blue a couple weeks back in this build?
wind furnace
does not look like they are
rare ether
yeah I'm working on the post but it's pinned in here - sadly they were trickier than we thought, but will be coming soon
steel meadow
Can we talk about the fact that nightstalker doesnt work with black powder
ocean ridge
hopefully they will be in before 9.2 launch
mellow urchin
Calm down bucko
steel meadow
i mean there is legit a chance ns will be playable and we have 2 major spells doesnt affected by it
like what
powder and flag
ocean ridge
i am yes push
coarse quiver
just recognizing that if you use the triple dust macro, you wont have the rotten on your first shadowstriek because you cant have dust and rotten at the same time
jesus that took me a long time to figure out what was wrong
coarse quiver
is the sub 2pc disabled or am i just disabled
spark cairn
is the sub 2pc disabled or am i just disabled
Yeah I came here specifically to mention this
I'm literally not getting the 2pc to proc, at ALL.
coarse quiver
sadge now i have to play sin in play testing
coarse quiver
i bought a new set of tier just to check if it was like a stale item id or something
spark cairn
Probably don't need to check if it's broken or not; I have over 100 Shadowstrike casts and literally never got an SBlades proc, at all.
coarse quiver
(something i know nothing of and probably isnt even a thing)
spark cairn
Gloves might be broken atm?
coarse quiver
i have all 5 pieces on rn
spark cairn
I have a greyed-out pair I can't equip.
lunar fractal
So this is how they intended to nerf sub
Assa got numbers decrease
We just get no set bonus
coarse quiver
lmao
spark cairn
It's obviously a bug but FeelsBadMan because I really wanted to mess around with all these moving parts.
spark cairn
How can they even nerf this set bonus, anyway? Only thing I can see is giving the 4pc Shadowstrikes the Akaari's treatment.
coarse quiver
too many sub players on ptr 
make the 2pc a 2 second duration instead of 5
lowering the proc chances (which is the suckiest way to nerf it)
spark cairn
Pins state that they're intentionally trying to not nerf the proc chance.
coarse quiver
restrict the 4pc interactions (theyre doing the opposite so probably not this)
correct
wind furnace
lowering the durating of the 2p proc
or the efficiency of the 4p
both seem like better ways to balance it than straight out lowering proc chances
spark cairn
Agreed.
coarse quiver
but the thing is, if they need to nerf it, theyll nerf the proc chance if they need to
spark cairn
They need to nerf it. This set bonus is so good it makes Fire Mages' set bonus seem balanced by comparison.
And it's confirmed by Scarizard to be getting nerfs.
So it's just a matter of when and how.
coarse quiver
tbh im nervous for rogues
wind furnace
the question is not if, but by how much
subtlety still has a fairly strong baseline
uncut hazel
watching rogues ask for rogue nerfs is the funniest thing
wind furnace
but also weak legendary choices
coarse quiver
feels like everyone is seeing the tier set and 1 leggo dam, and thinking sub needs nerfs
spark cairn
What were the overall talks about the 2nd leggo? I saw some folks mentioning Shadowdust, some mentioning Finality, some mentioning Akaari's, some even mentioning Rotten...
coarse quiver
when some classes are gaining 10% or more from second leggo where sub is gaining 5% at best
livid ferry
Sims were done with 2 leges and full set lol
spark cairn
Finality seems like a given in M+ ofc
livid ferry
Subs like 1k ahead of fire mage
spark cairn
Also, dumb question
coarse quiver
im referring to the actual raid testing, noit sims
spark cairn
Have there been any talks about Sub keeping a 259 Edge offhand in sims yet?
coarse quiver
yeah we will
unless theres a new dagger, it looks like we'll even be keeping both EoN
@wind furnace is that still right?
livid ferry
Raid testing also doesn’t have any of our bug fixes in
spark cairn
Assuming 285?
Mainhand is probably a little more dicey though; that's a lotta weapon damage.
wind furnace
i did a sim a while back with a 280 or 290
coarse quiver
i think mainhand was almost close?
livid ferry
Its close ye
wind furnace
the problem with offhand is that it has lower impact
this means that the main hand will be replaced on mythic or so
spark cairn
We're gonna be farming that thing for an eternity by this point, aren't we?
wind furnace
while you keep a sylvanas in offhand
coarse quiver
yeah offhand is damn near a stat stick
coarse quiver
have you done any sims on 2pc being like 2 or 3 seconds?
i cant grasp the strength of the 2pc so idk how much that would move the meter
wind furnace
tried
2p seems to not work
4p works
the strengh in the 2p is from the additional cp income
it feeds into the shadow dance feedback loop, what is why its strong
grave peak
sin testing time then pog
livid ferry
Except this time its not ppl asking for nerfs its the dev himself telling you directly its going to be nerfed
buoyant gyro
I mean it's literally the point of PTR, tbh
Getting too attached to initial tuning (bad or good) as a "preview" of what live will be is usually not the best idea. Until a final build rolls around, it's best to just mentally ignore numbers to some degree. 😛
winged fiber
Nah people asked for nerfs on each spec before the dev feedback rogue just kind of always does this lol
I generally give feedback on gameplay / fun / bugs etc people just jump right onto the tuning always if rogue is doing good then they “have to” get nerfed like for some reason rogues not allowed to be top Dps with negative utility
i do really like fuu's idea of maybe nerfing the blades duration given though
it keeps the fun / smoothness of the set without delving too deep into feast or famine rng
buoyant gyro
I mean the Sub set has been clearly over "budget" for quite some time, and the new Assassination set was exceptionally clear as being overbudget. It's pretty expected for anyone looking at relative tuning.
Like one could say the Assassination change yesterday was a "nerf" but only in the context of ignoring that it was ridiculously buffed during the testing of the new mechanic and became wildly overbudget
winged fiber
while that may be true plenty specs have seen instances of being borrowed power winners or being op / the best
buoyant gyro
Talking in buff/nerf terms when it comes to new mechanics/PTR is just not something that is the same as live
winged fiber
and any time rogue initially sims higher than other specs we expect or ask for nerfs
which is imo kind of cringe
buoyant gyro
Yeah everyone wants to win the lottery but that's just not the goal or expectation of PTR
livid ferry
Is the only thing that is relevant
Some class could be doing 6000 dps in 9.1 and have it all be from 1 legendary
winged fiber
there's a difference between going oh hey we're pretty strong cool and perpetually expecting / asking for nerfs if you're seen to be strong though
buoyant gyro
We expect nerfs because it's logical. Calling that cringe just feels to me like having a mindset that is not compatible with the literal purpose of PTR
winged fiber
any time fire mage is busted you don't see them going oh damn we're an outlier we need nerfs that's the logical thing to do
buoyant gyro
And when Fire mage is OP everyone asks for nerfs too. Just Blizzard lets them get away with it for reasons. But that's a different issue entirely. 😛
Not for lack of bringing it up
winged fiber
just have fun with it homie
enjoy your time in the sun
and also yea but that's other specs
not fire mages
difference is rogue is the one complaining about themselves
lol
buoyant gyro
I 100% guarantee you that if Obedience for example had gone live at 1%
All Rogue specs would have been aura nerfed in the first hotfix
So pick your poison
winged fiber
or we could've just been strong for a tier
buoyant gyro
No way lol
winged fiber
like many other specs are consistently
buoyant gyro
We would have been outliers by a significant amount, there's just absolutely no chance it would have survived
No chance
buoyant gyro
Sub has been dumpstered for far less 😛
livid ferry
9.1 has no real outlier throughput wise
It has an outlier niche wise
Thats about it
winged fiber
i'm not against the nerfs or tuning or anything but
asking for your own spec to be nerfed any time it's even slightly ahead of other specs is weird
to me at least
yea 9.1 balance is pretty good
nathria was not
nyalotha was not
livid ferry
Its not pretty good its probably some of the best balance
The game has had
Literally ever
winged fiber
true
buoyant gyro
"asking for your own spec to be nerfed" is just a silly argument that doesn't reflect the process of testing
livid ferry
Some specs are stronger than others sure but everyone has some level of niche
buoyant gyro
Tuning on PTR isn't "nerfing" and people who call it that are just being disingenuous
You never had the damage
Living vicariously though PTR sims is fun and all, but not reality
plucky storm
no no, esra is right, I'm actually on my knees praying to ion 3 times a day to make the one class I play the worst in the game
you caught me
livid ferry
Also please for the love of god don’t touch the 2 pc fuck the 4pc
winged fiber
yes it's not technically a nerf since it never made it to live
buoyant gyro
I mean nothing technically about it. The values on PTR should always be viewed as little more than placeholder
buoyant gyro
To use the example again, it's clear the "100%" value on the Assassination 2pc was literally never going to go live
For anyone to call it a nerf would just be clearly silly
winged fiber
yes there's a difference between obvious placeholders, things that aren't finished, and extreme outliers
what i'm talking about is the fact that even when something is even remotely ahead of the pack
rogues themselves run around asking for nerfs
winged fiber
you spend a lot of time in this discord i'd honestly be suprised if you haven't seen it
lunar fractal
Didnt know blizzard just hands our nerfs when you ask for it
plucky storm
I haven't seen it because it doesn't fucking happen
no one is like wow rogue top of wcl chart
please nerf
who is doing that?
no one is
because it makes 0 sense
buoyant gyro
Yeah trust me, I like being top of damage meters. 😛
plucky storm
someone coming into a channel and going "hey sin tier strong right?"
and someone responding with "yeah it's 30%, way too strong, will get nerfed"
is per your definition
not asking for nerfs
and aside from that, I'm not sure what conversations you could remotely misconstrue as a rogue player asking for rogues to be nerfed
even the basis for that "rogue players asking for rogue to be nerfed" is such an asinine concept
winged fiber
if you say so I see it all the time
plucky storm
where
who
I've asked 3 times and I've asked in the past and the best I get is "idk man open your eyes I guess lul"
plucky storm
and then you disappear into the ether like a gremlin
winged fiber
because you're asking me for physical evidence of random people who's names I don't remember
it's generally not regulars I can say that much
plucky storm
I mean if you can't back up your insane delusions
then don't keep repeating them
it's that easy
winged fiber
i'll start screenshotting people I guess lol
tepid prawn
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard today.
Great to end the day on a high note.
plucky storm
then you're actually just arguing against yourself when you said this
form a coherent argument and come back
winged fiber
my opinion of extreme outliers differs from yours
is cool
gonna go on about my day this is getting off track
wind furnace
Tuning will always be a topic of discussion
its unavoidable
and one class/spec will always get better/worse in outcome
what we do is argue on numbers and try to justify changes or evaluate
if something is close to 30% dps gain like the assassination set pre nerf, it will get nerfed
it ofc is nice in testing to be op
literally the reason subtlety was so hyped in early 9.0 was that it had broken or overpowered stuff on ptr
winged fiber
yea akaaris was beyond broken, needed a nerf, got gutted into the 12th dimension instead lol
wind furnace
and it took a bit till people found out that it wasn't as good after that
that is why the player base shifted from being subtlety heavy
to then being outlaw heavy
plucky storm
my opinion of extreme outliers differs from yours
thoughts on this graph?
lunar fractal
Needs more yellow
wind furnace
and after assassination got buffed to be ahead of both, people moved to it
rogue is a outliner in 9.1(.5) for sure too
livid ferry
yea akaaris was beyond broken, needed a nerf, got gutted into the 12th dimension...
You know that if it was nerfed to be say like a 15% legendary sub would be like
Severely ahead of everyone in nathria
Even 10% lol
wind furnace
but even as a outliner, the play rate of the specs is not significant
lunar fractal
So many warriors though
plucky storm
Needs more yellow
actually should be more yellow, the obedience 1% to 0.5% change was around an 8% difference, which would be 1600 dps on that graph, but I only extended the rogues out 1000
so it's actually still conservative
versed meteor
thoughts on this graph?
Is that sin with kindred doing so much?
plucky storm
I'm also running out of space on the graph to actually quantify another 600 dps
buoyant gyro
yea akaaris was beyond broken, needed a nerf, got gutted into the 12th dimension...
The issue here isn't even so much that Akaari's got gutted it was actually that the dev working on Rogue tuning was actually sticking to the agreed upon legendary budget while other devs were largely yoloing, which is certainly unfortunate but perhaps not unexpected since SL beta was a bit of a clusterfuck.
plucky storm
so I guess the obedience thing is actually more like this
livid ferry
Ive said this many times but % values on borrowed power are completely irrelevant and the only thing that actually matters is your total output when everything comes together
limpid lance
Stop asking for nerfs whispyr pls
lunar fractal
pls nerf
wind furnace
to be fair, rogue is not as much of a outliner over the entire raid
but certainly in pure st
buoyant gyro
Thinking Rogues wouldn't have gotten hotfixed with those numbers is just like.. ignoring the history of Rogue live nerfs entirely over the years. Only Warlocks are allowed to be outliers like that. Everyone knows that rule. 🤣
tepid prawn
Is that sin with kindred doing so much?
Kindred Affinity, Power Infusion, Focus Magic, Benevolent Faerie, Pact of the Soulstalkers, Blessing of Sacrifice... you name it.
livid ferry
to be fair, rogue is not as much of a outliner over the entire raid
Yes this raid is very good in providing several specs time to shine
Very good raid
versed meteor
Kindred Affinity, Power Infusion, Focus Magic, Benevolent Faerie, Pact of the So...
Ah so sin goes nuclear
plucky storm
Is that sin with kindred doing so much?
that is me with microsoft paint
versed meteor
Gotcha
hardy jay
I think some of the legendary effects for classes should be options on the last talent row in the next xpack. Amirite?
wind furnace
possible
don't think one of our legendary powers does qualifies for being a good replacement for a talent
livid ferry
Ill literally take anything over MoS and SecTec
limpid lance
Grats, you now have shiv enmpowering talent
livid ferry
plucky storm
toxic onslaught, but at the end of shadow blades
wind furnace
bloodfang ?
winged fiber
thoughts on this graph?
looks good to me
winged fiber
You know that if it was nerfed to be say like a 15% legendary sub would be like
yea its original iteration was obscene it needed hefty nerfs, I still expected it to be useable I guess though shame it became trash though not like finality or akaaris changes anything gameplaywise so not much of a shame i suppose
livid ferry
Was still usable in 9.0 terms lol
winged fiber
we're a class that basically shines in single target and brings nothing to a raid environment except for damage in a limited pool of availability (melee)
so yes i'm 100% ok with us being top dog on guardian
just like other specs are far and ahead in their ideal environments
livid ferry
Just learn to not care my guy
livid ferry
Learn to sell your class
winged fiber
livid ferry
So you can play raid
dire perch
2p worked -_- (sry for russian). it does not work on turnip punching bag, but works on target dummy
wind furnace
i did test on dummy earlier and it didn't work
guess i need to test on a diffrent dummy again
testing it on a diffrent dummy seems like it works
e.g. it works in the order hall on the raid dummy
mellow urchin
it works in orgrimmar too
winged fiber
I was doing a lot of testing in daz last night and it worked there
might've broken today though so don't know if that's helpful or not lol
livid ferry
it works in orgrimmar too
Damn really?
wind furnace
i have a guess
dummys that work: orgrimar, orderhall
dummys that don't work: warspear, zuldazar, shrine of two moons, dalaran
so seems like it does not work on dummies in old zones
wind furnace
sin testing time then pog
probably can play sub ^
wind furnace
interesting effect
livid ferry
Retribution Rogue
nova nexus
so scooby do could proc their own dagger in 9.2
mossy carbon
Yeah it's not happy when you already have belt equipped
plucky storm
me and koji already looked into it and reported it
basically it looks like they were updating effect ID's for unity
and fucked up a copy paste
so the effect ID points to the ret legendary on ptr, instead of obedience
plucky storm
Should be an easy fix
just in time for 10.0
buoyant gyro
Obe seems like the only one affected
mellow urchin
really?
mellow urchin
so some stuff was bugfixed
livid ferry
Ill be mid eviscerate and gain a stack
livid ferry
check if 4 pc procs do it too i wasn't paying attention to that
ok it does just checked lol
delicate osprey
that is lit
mellow urchin
i wonder what other things are fixed
i know the 4p isnt procing 2p
or 4p procing akaari
delicate osprey
yea those seems to be doing some moving gears
buoyant gyro
akaari not giving PV stacks
Yes they changed the proc flags on PV in the build
Gave it the "Can Proc from Procs" flag
Think that was the only non-set change I saw in the spell data
mellow urchin
isnt it weird how much they buffed unholy
is it really that bad
or will more specs see similar adjustments?
livid ferry
unholy is pretty bad
buoyant gyro
Probably means that PV also triggers from WM now?
mellow urchin
fair enough
delicate osprey
yea execute pressure is big on warrior and unholy but overall i dont know where they stand head to head vs other melee
of course raid cds
livid ferry
oh ye sure
winged fiber
what's army cd though
guardian might be skewed because they can't fit another army in
nvm army is 3-330
guardian is perfect kill time around 4 min
hoary zephyr
and then you disappear into the ether like a gremlin
grave peak
Unholy just got saved from having to play night fae next tier
tired ether
has anyone looked more into how Sylv dagger in the offhand is looking in 9.2?
wind furnace
^ subtlety benefits a lot from it so it will keep it unless a more powerful item comes along
other specs esp. assassination probably drop it sooner given that its not as powerful for them
tired ether
just recently come back to the game so a heroic one will have to do haha divers folly all over again
blissful wigeon
Hey guys, anyone have tested Finality with Obedience for M+ by any chance?
wind furnace
should work fairly well
feral schooner
Yes did a 15 key with it
tbh was just plug and play you can optimise a bit but should be a good combo for fortified weeks
For more burst dps I would recommend deathly in mythic plus
especially for prio target damage
blissful wigeon
For more burst dps I would recommend deathly in mythic plus
I think most scenarios Finality will outperform maybe on overall since vanish doesnt reset as in outlaw.
wind furnace
probably depends on the key/pulls
delicate osprey
if things dont change much on m+ we will play aakari or rotten
wind furnace
if you can utialize the deathly window well, its possible to have deathly/obedience as good choice
delicate osprey
and yea deathly does not seem bad
wind furnace
possible that deathly impact will be a bit overrated
but thats the usual
akaari vs. finality def. could be a interesting discussion to have
delicate osprey
and it will all go to shit when you try to explain ahaha
yea people play aakari because it does more of the job of rogue
but finality is more dps !
blissful wigeon
yea people play aakari because it does more of the job of rogue
That's true yet, think of it on key level around 25 Shard pulls in HOA - you wouldn't go and keep funneling into shard because you have casters up u want to aoe them down then funnel into killing them then shard. that's how i asses it because you have 2 hard aoe classes monk and mage in the grp.
delicate osprey
with tier 4 set and 2 set
aakari does more
i mean i like finality and will play it because i have 137% or so mastery
but top people will stack vers and go st builds etc
livid ferry
finality is also equally boring
livid ferry
trash talent is trash
wind furnace
premed is even more ded now
PV can now proc from WM procs too due to the 4p fix for it
what should make wm vs premed even more in fav. of wm
besides the tier set being very good for wm
its funny that premed is bad because the tier set also means more premed procs, but its expected
if i am honest about it, i did prefere the balance in legion
when wm was weak-ish in st but got better in aoe
and the alternative st talent did end up as better option on st
changing the row to be "only single target" does usually lead to less choices
unkempt peak
but they will end up doing some talent tuning right? it isnt like we will play with the exact same talent build from the start of the expansion all the way to the end right? 
coarse quiver
wouldnt be surprised if there was very little talent changing/tuning this patch as they are already reworking everyones class/spec for 10.0 already
blissful wigeon
It's sad blizzard implement systems and the next patch they trash it instead of improving it
wind furnace
tuning in 9.2 will be focused on the existing systems
blissful wigeon
Dom sockets is their biggest disaster "#TheyAreTierSets
unkempt peak
I hope once we get towards 10.0 we start seeing blizzard get more active with balancing. FotM really has just become flavor of the tier, im not saying i want them to go back to MoP style tuning where you really didnt know if your spec was gonna survive the next reset, but id enjoy a balance between WoD & MoP tuning, frequent addressing of unbalance outside of major content patches, and being willing to touch talents.
just something to help revitalize class fatigue mid way through an expansion
pale jetty
Or maybe they could do anything for the game
Like
Anything at all
Add new content, add catchup mechanics, put in a new event, something
Literally
Anything
Instead what we get is
vestal sedge
if things dont change much on m+ we will play aakari or rotten
Does rotten work with 4p shadowstrike?
pale jetty
"here's another rep grind that will take you 28 days of nonstop rep grind to get double Lego"
autumn jungle
It's gonna be sooner than 28 days, wowhead took those numbers out of their ass. Some stuff doesn't give apportiate amount of rep or doesn't give at all or has placeholder rep amount
wind furnace
26-28 days is ideal
a to low number does give weird overlaps with the wfr
unless its lower by a lot
unkempt peak
I think making it available after WF is fine, so staggering it to ensure it doesn't cause complications with the race, but the bit that gets me is it's 26-28 days of doing (what will probably be) the same 5-6 world quests, or fill the bars over and over again, if it was something actually engaging it wouldn't feel like such a grind
After playing around for a while in zerith mortis it seems like they have taken the wrong lessons from Korthia, the zone is big, but very sparsely populated, has about 4-5 things to do there a day outside of just running around randomly looking for chests/ rares
And the upgrade stuff for bonuses in ZM not only are timegated by finding the currency to upgrade, but also actually timegated by hours if not days at a time, the whole thing stinks of artificial inflation
wind furnace
I am with you on that, i think its better to have multiple progression paths towards a goal.
We had a simialr discussion earlier in #wow-general
e.g. i mentioned argus as one of the better zones that still had good engagement besides not having required grind
coarse quiver
argus was probably my favorite "new zone" of the past couple expacs
WQs and dailies were genuinely kinda fun in argus
pale jetty
It's gonna be sooner than 28 days, wowhead took those numbers out of their ass. ...
yes you can say that
but realistically, it will take most players more than 28 days
because most players cba to rep grind every day
so even if "grinding it out" takes much less than 28 days
chances are the majority of the game's players wont be getting it in that shorter time frame
unkempt peak
It's because they want to ensure player engagement is at an all time high, without taking the risk of making entirely option, argus was a fluke when you look at it, alternatively if you are going to make something a grind make it across the community like isle of thunder
I bet they will look back at torghast like a success, due to all the runs people completed, but they will quickly forget it was mandatory content
pale jetty
So basically
Above 15 days of nonstop grinding probably boring ass dailies to get a mandatory character upgrade that's advertised as the selling point of the patch
Siiiick
It won't affect me really but jfc
Bruh
I didn't put that there
I fucking hate discord
I'm go sleep now
This app is hard trolling me
I can't even delete it
mossy carbon
It was always going to be tied to some sort of grind, three(?) weeks of dailies that take around an hour or less is about the best you could reasonably expect. I agree it would be better if there was none and just unlocked through story on heroic or mythic week but that's unlikely to happen.
Atm some stuff is not giving as much rep as you might expect either, so it may take less time on live. I think the weekly quest (Shaping Fate equivalent) was barely giving anything, and you might also get something from world boss.
I don't play at a level where it really matters and for people that do, it's a much better grind than anything I remember from legion or bfa, or even 9.1.
civic terrace
I dont think its the best we could expect at all
Daily resets without catchup are a shit system that force people to do stuff they might not want to do everyday to do that for an extra edge anyway
Its a direct result of people burning out of said content the second they complete the necessary parts of said grinds
Be honest, how many of you have set foot in korthia since completing its grind? At least I havnt, and I flat out refuse to go back there. Its almost ptss honestly
wind furnace
why is a daily grind the best system you can think of
just like i mentioned earlier in the discussion, argus did not have this kind of requirement and player engagement was good
also i don't remember anyone complaining that they want to have a power system gated behind reputation in atbt
mossy carbon
I mean I think it's shit, but based on the last two expansions it's better than whatever we usually end up with. It's infinitely better than spamming maw of souls (abandoned for antorus because AP requirement was so low) or spamming islands.
Nazjatar was even more cancer imo with benthic and needing to grind essences, I was benched but the other rogue had to get pvp essence for ashvane progress in a weekend
robust lotus
They could just, I dunno, tie it to a campaign achievement
delicate osprey
people just dont like playing the game when they dont want
mossy carbon
Antorus is kind of an anomaly in that regard imo, in that they kind of abandoned AP being relevant after the ToV/NH shitshow
robust lotus
It's just upsetting that blizzard blatantly uses FOMO as a means to drive content
mossy carbon
They could just, I dunno, tie it to a campaign achievement
Yeah they could and they should but it's not realistic, ultimately I think they know that putting something like this will get a month or two more of sub time out of certain people, and so it's worthwhile even if other people whine about it
robust lotus
Especially in a subscription based game
It doesn't matter to me personally, I'll do it anyway
But to the normie gamer it's a big deal
wind furnace
Ap system was new, also i think it was fair later in the patch/xpac
it was stupid at the start of legion
robust lotus
Blizzards systems haven't changed in design as the player base its designed for had grown older
Something that worked for me when I was 20 doesn't work for me when I'm 30
wind furnace
i don't think that any system should stagnate
robust lotus
It should change to the needs of the players it's been presented to
wind furnace
keeping core formulas is fine, but iterating over systems should be the baseline
mossy carbon
it was stupid at the start of legion
But they didn't learn at all from it, you had to do quite a few islands early on in BFA for azerite unlocks as I remember, and benthic/essences were worse.
A simple rep grind is far better, especially one that's not tied to RNG and rare farming like korthia
wind furnace
might be true, there seem to be repeats in similar mistakes. But that could also be due to them changing devs
robust lotus
Especially when the suspected average age of the player base doesn't really lend itself to larger time investment
Not like it did even in wrath or mop
Legion too tbh
wind furnace
i think its fine to keep time investment relevant in mmos
robust lotus
Yes but doesn't base that time investment as FOMO
wind furnace
artificially time gating just feels off often, it can have its places but seems overused
mossy carbon
Legion too tbh
Legion absolutely destroyed a huge number of casual guilds, the carnage was insane - it was clear so many people couldn't or wouldn't keep up
Not even casual, all guilds actually
wind furnace
there are systems to prevent this tbh
robust lotus
Legion absolutely destroyed a huge number of casual guilds, the carnage was insa...
Mistress killed basically every casual Mythic raiding guild
wind furnace
there was even partly a push towards systems that had soft caps that changed, so you would just get more if you missed out one day and catch up quick to the regular amount
anima is a good example for it
mossy carbon
I mean mistress was just a hard boss, I'm talking about getting to krosus and half your raiders don't have enough traits and guilds split down the middle
robust lotus
there was even partly a push towards systems that had soft caps that changed, so...
This is why valor is a good example of a time gated system that can still be beneficial
robust lotus
I mean mistress was just a hard boss, I'm talking about getting to krosus and ha...
Never had that issue personally
Wasn't in a shit guild at the time thi tbf
Though
mossy carbon
Neither did I, but it was a big problem even in lots of top 500 guilds
wind furnace
valor is a good system because it removes rng from m+
robust lotus
Valor is a good system because it allows you to catch up
When you have time
And not when the game says you should have time
Again, this 9.2 grind is completely irrelevant to myself personally but my situation and ability to play as someone my age is an outlier
mossy carbon
I really wish it was something you passively unlocked by doing the story and the rep was just some mounts and augment rune/whatever but compared to the atrocities of the past this is (at least to me) an acceptable compromise - I didn't play ny'alotha until midway through 9.1 so can't comment on those.
If they're set on this kind of thing, hopefully they iterate and let you do more in one day rather than something every day.
civic terrace
They could (and maybe they should) just have their own story for legendaries within the universe of the shadowlands expansion
And after doing said story you could then unlock whatever needs unlocking. After a bit of a quest chain and maybe some small time material gathering or whatever but none of that should be gated. The only gating would then be the releaseframe of the quests
I think that is a far better system than daily grinds
And then you have devtime to spare to make all sorts of fun little adventures in that space
robust lotus
Rep grind is just lazy development at best
mossy carbon
Yeah I agree and would much prefer that, but putting in a daily grind mitigates the need to put into lots of fun adventures (to be fair to the devs, there looks like lots of that stuff already with the cypher system), when they're probably nearly fully focused on next expansion
robust lotus
So because the next expansion is being developed
They should put less work into the current one?
mossy carbon
Think I've just got Stockholm syndrome tbh
robust lotus
The cypher system has its own issue even if its cosmetic only
mossy carbon
They should put less work into the current one?
In an ideal world, no, in reality, yes
robust lotus
Why on earth there is a time to activate nodes after selecting them
civic terrace
Yeah I agree and would much prefer that, but putting in a daily grind mitigates ...
The thing is that they are making it a linear grind unlocking system
What if i just dont give a fuck about unlock A but I really want unlock F
And if all of this is optional content.. i dont see the harm in giving the players the freedom to do as they please
mossy carbon
Because (they think) it keeps you subbed longer if you have to wait to unlock a bunch of things to get to the thing you really care about, and I'm sure for some people it will work.
Alternatively it may just be the way they've done things in the past and don't want to innovate that much.
civic terrace
It doesnt and were way past proving that truth
Wow cant retain players in the biggest epidemic in human history
If that doesnt convince you nothing will
mossy carbon
I don't disagree with you on anything you say, you don't need to convince me
civic terrace
I just wish it was heard by blizzard, instead of keeping us on this choking short leash
delicate osprey
what i really think i will like about this patch is the hunt for tertiaries on sets every week getting 9 choices and also bosses having extra tier loottable
then gambling with flux
maybe it can also proc shit when you transform them
finally the balance will be achieved of 20% leech 20% avo
with decent ilvl gear
mellow urchin
delicate osprey
gamba city
delicate osprey
also as venth we may drop deeper daggers for PV funnily enough ahaha
infinite stars all over again
i mean i can see where people will find the fun
but still ahaha
wind furnace
current variance:
lunar fractal
Higher number = more rng?
wind furnace
so outlaw right now has a similar variance to 9.2 subtlety
lunar fractal
Or other way around
wind furnace
^ likely won't change significantly in 9.2
wind furnace
i mean balance is top of the chart
delicate osprey
yes they live and die by the last 7 secs of their ramps
they are bfa sub rogue
you can crit starsurge for 400k
or send a wang for 200
wind furnace
the difference lies in design of the tier set
The assassination one is consistent and controllable what is the main reason the variance does not change significantly
lunar fractal
I meant not now but 9.2
If it doesnt change then that's fine
Wait whats the reason for balance druid like that
Just because you can fuckup the venthyr ability?
wind furnace
balance druid have very high burst spikes
wind furnace
so critical strikes during that do dictate damage a lot more, hence a high variance
lunar fractal
Aha gotcha
mellow urchin
the variance for assa in 9.2
with dusk
looks to be 2.9
%
9.2 assa venthyr
dusk least rng
mellow urchin
lunar fractal
Dramatic zoom
wind furnace
but differences rly come down to the design approach to both sets
mellow urchin
our venthyr sims almost double that
lunar fractal
Unpog
wind furnace
4.9 with legendary 😛
mellow urchin
is it?
wind furnace
ye
wind furnace
but kyrian is at ~4.2
mellow urchin
even more reasons to not play venthyr
wind furnace
and we might play kyrian from current numbers
mellow urchin
5.0 is fucking awful
wind furnace
haha
lunar fractal
Too much
shadow heron
less than now proably we are losing frost set ?
delicate osprey
outlaw will also live and die by wft now too
nah gauche is 30% only so
they can omegaproc too
wind furnace
do we know what outlaw is at
can do a quick sim if you want
lunar fractal
Im glad current legendaries don't go over so I dont have to waste my time and get all 262 legendary items ready
wind furnace
giveme a sec
mellow urchin
guy is always gatekeeping sims
delicate osprey
it would be a bother to get 2p to work in sims might need some more optimization before they want to ship it
as they will run into sub ShT things
robust lotus
Outlaw is the least informed spedc channel
mellow urchin
this sim seems
wind furnace
not sure what 2nd legendary they use
mellow urchin
so they get less rng with their set?
wind furnace
what 2nd legendary will they use
mellow urchin
idk
mossy carbon
echoing
shadow heron
what 2nd legendary will they use
cele echoing
wind furnace
giveme a sec, ill re-sim subtlety
without dyz
or wait, i think it uses bek not dyz in my sim
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hJRzo6eHbFbJucS5ZiCLCt/simc stays around the same tho:
robust lotus
Makes sense when the tier set is basically rng
robust lotus
Yeah, I get the goal
mossy carbon
Since it's probably not changing, hopefully they don't lower proc rate on 4p and nerf something else since it needs nerfed
robust lotus
I quite like the idea of feeling like woah b2b 4p procs
mellow urchin
he said he wont
mellow urchin
I quite like the idea of feeling like woah b2b 4p procs
i wonder if you'll feel the same
mossy carbon
I quite like the idea of feeling like woah b2b 4p procs
It's super aids as kyrian just hitting a dummy, but imo still more fun than assa
mellow urchin
when the 4p dmg is nerfed/cp gain is removed
robust lotus
I like the idea not the actuality 
delicate osprey
i could live with getting x seconds of shadowblades each x strikes
mellow urchin
aka 4p might proc 50% strength shadowstrikes
delicate osprey
instead of a % chance
robust lotus
Doesn't matter too much when you think about it
delicate osprey
isnt 2p 3 secs?
robust lotus
The effectiveness of the shadowstrikes tho
robust lotus
No it's 5
mossy carbon
I think 50% shadowstrikes (or lower) would be best, I don't like the idea of no cps even though its annoying
robust lotus
Can also just lower the amount of targets it hits but doesn't fix ST
robust lotus
Makes sense, I'd expect it to land at 40-60% effectiveness
robust lotus
Leaking towards higher percentage
robust lotus
Do they nerf based on percentage increase
Or relativity to other specs/classes
So say we're 15k
mellow urchin
a fixed %
robust lotus
And other spec is 14k
robust lotus
I haven't read ngl
mellow urchin
all the sets will hit around 10%
or thereabouts
and then they will individually buff specs
that might be too bad
with 10% sets
robust lotus
Yeah when 10% of 0 is still 0 xd
robust lotus
Yeah, but can balance tier set irrespective of that anyway
mellow urchin
i think the idea was that its harder to adjust every single tier set
based on relative spec balance
instead of just hitting a target goal
and then adjust outliers
robust lotus
Balance for class relativity
delicate osprey
sub has a very high baseline
so even after dom set disappears
we kinda get ahead of everyone
robust lotus
Then once a better idea of overall balance is gained from live data
Can balance then
It's the better of two evils I suppose
mellow urchin
but i fear it might become another 8.3
where rogue was kinda bad cus we had weak borrowed power
and every spec that had some kind of stat interaction with their azerite, gained A LOT more dps from corruption
and it was never adjusted
so in the case of 9.2, we have really bad borrowed power, so the synergy between our stuff is naturally gonna be worse
than the other specs
even if our baseline is good
robust lotus
For sure, but like hacha said we have a really high baseline as it is
robust lotus
No it's linear
mellow urchin
yes
which is bad
in this case
cus a spec like arcane, has a legendary that might gain 15% more value cus hey it has synergy with the tier set
so suddenly its huge
we dont have that "wow-factor" in our borrowed power
robust lotus
I can see sub receiving some buffs to evis
mellow urchin
very modest gains
robust lotus
Because buffs to ss would indirectly buff the tier set too
mellow urchin
liek for instance
fire mage has the exact same synergy in 9.2
that it had in 8.3
where for some reason, the "lucid effect" is still double dipping with regular CDR
so venthyr fire mage gets double the benefit from their tier set
= big dam
delicate osprey
we also have an oopsie in simp power
wind furnace
i dont think sub should be rng
+1, i feel like there are a lot of missed opportunities to give something static/strategic
delicate osprey
only very good external for us is kyrian hunt all the other ones are inting cov or giving it to a subpar spec
also wft is decent i guess
kinda sad now that more kyrian druids and necro warriors will appear
mossy carbon
I would much rather be fine without externals than great with and shit without
delicate osprey
even nf palas might be a thing if they decide to kill ashen once and for all
also holy priest will play nf
delicate osprey
yea shocker
i mean the change is even more busted even
now you can just cancel it
wind furnace
assassination was quite good in 8.3, but both sub/outlaw did not get the most
because haste did work well for it
delicate osprey
yea it was a number games
we had to gamba infinite/tentacle/masterful/crit+crit dmg
wind furnace
subtlety/outlaw basically relied on non stat corruption
mellow urchin
assassination was quite good in 8.3, but both sub/outlaw did not get the most
even assa was trash
compared to the real god specs
wind furnace
with interactions that did get predicted to be problematic by simc people?
delicate osprey
as always
robust lotus
even assa was trash
robust lotus
Also scar seems to be hot on his assigned classes so I'm hopeful
wind furnace
i think 8.3 showcases what happens if you ignore balancing concerns
there is ofc always a fear that balancing will lead to somone or something ending up bad
delicate osprey
wow rn with some things like externals got out of control fast
wind furnace
stuff like this things are more a mistake of ignoring outliners
mellow urchin
i love this list
delicate osprey
some specs like demo just dont work without some