#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
wind furnace
Tier set bonus: Immortal Technique (2-set) Shadowstrike has a 15% chance to grant Shadow Blades for 5 sec. Immortal Technique (4-set) Your finishing moves have a 3% chance per combo point to cast Shadowstrike at up to 5 nearby enemies.
Evaluation:
Currently on PTR
2- set: does extend Shadow Blades
2-set: does extend running Shadow Blades over 20 secs.
2-set: Shadow Blades extends the duration of the proc
4-set: does generate combo points from each strike (one strike per target, so one strike on single target)
4-set: does work with Shadow Blades
4-set: can WM proc
4-set: does consumes symbols crit buff (affecting each strike) and premeditation
4-set: range seems to be similar to storm or bigger
4-set: does proc 2p, akaari or PV
4-set: does apply find weakness
4-set: does interact with ER
feedback thread:
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/class-set-feedback-rogue/329463
^ thats the current testing done, if you have anything to add/correct/ask pls also post below
My opinion:
I think the Shadowblade refresh behavior is not intuitive and can feel bad if you overwrite a existing buff.
4p not working with ER seems to me like a oversight, it def. should work with it.
In terms of overall strength of the set, it seems quite strong but i will hold back on judging it before having simulations.
Assumption of a target dps increase are around 10-15% dps what it likely manages to achieve.
For weather it should or should not interact with PV and similar i am open for a discussion.
technical assumption:
Akaaris, PV, etc. all work on casts of the spell. The 4p proc is technically not a cast so that's why it likely does not work.
delicate osprey
For the 4P making it interact with PV will not be a thing for a while most likely as the cast does not come from you but still if that happenened no one would say anything.
Now for the 2pc and rewriting the duration when using it, i dont know if there is a good fix as far as i have seen on those kind of things they usually leave it like that
crisp crypt
The overwrite feels especially bad, because it devalues stilleto slightly if you're delaying putting your own shb on cd to wait out a proc
delicate osprey
yea stiletto is getting less value but still some of it comes from getting closer to 100% uptime
wind furnace
weaponmaster works because it is just a chance on the spell itself
thats why its an exception
delicate osprey
yea pv may be a player input with xxx ms cd
mellow urchin
Like if you were here last night, you could see the guy who used SND in stealth and teleported to a random mob
delicate osprey
to prevent many things happening
mellow urchin
Its just a shadowstrike cast
wind furnace
yes
delicate osprey
yea but when we mean cast its not the ability per se
mellow urchin
But they probably just havent added any interactions yet
delicate osprey
but making it trigger from input
crisp crypt
People in 9.2 trying to get a snd up before pull and ending up pulling to a proc 
wind furnace
but the cast comes from the proc not the player itself
delicate osprey
so they just need to take that cap off
wind furnace
so you didn't cast it technically
mellow urchin
I assume they just have to manually add akaari, pv and FW
to the proc
But havent done it yet
wind furnace
i assume they could add all of that to proc if they want
premeditation is probably the least relevant of all of them
thorny spire
The overwrite feels especially bad, because it devalues stilleto slightly if you...
I highly doubt they change this behaviour since it has been like this since bfa as i was told today. Would be nuts if they do cause they would solve the same problem on celerity also, for example, but again highly doubt it
wind furnace
i agree that it would make sense to work with fw/etc
in terms of gameplay interactions being logical
but in terms of impact, i am not sure if the current implementation isn't "strong enough" so to say
mellow urchin
but in terms of impact, i am not sure if the current implementation isn't "stron...
I think the issue with this statement is that you assume they wont tune the set
wind furnace
and assuming the 10-15% damage range, other classes with "busted" tier sets might see some nerfs
mellow urchin
The set is likely getting nerfed, having all the base interactions on the set will help
wind furnace
i don't disagree on your point
having it as good as possible could mean that it survives nerfs easier
mellow urchin
its possible they account for interactions in their nerfs or they wont
wind furnace
once we have some implementations we probably can talk a bit more mathematical about nerfs
from some early math, shb uptime could be as high as 55%+
and 4p will probably proc fairly often in m+
hoary zephyr
I don’t think they will make Akaari’s work with the 4 set only because that will result in a cookie cut choice. I mean yeah WoW is just about using the absolute best set up for whatever you are doing but it would definitely mark the end of other legendaries; finality, rotten, deathly unless those are buffed to accordance with Akaari
wind furnace
rotten probably loses some value
having a lot of cp income means that the additional ones from rotten will likely make it slightly worse
hoary zephyr
But regarding tier set strictly, I am not against Akaari NOT procing from 4 set
delicate osprey
rotten would only see play in venth most likely even with set
as you have limited time to get those cp
wind furnace
you probably hit 30 stacks quite easy with current 4p
hoary zephyr
Ya but I don’t think anything will triumph Akaari procing from 4 set tbh
wind furnace
so i am not even sure if the additional finisher makes to much diffrence
hoary zephyr
Like there is no shot anything would beat Akaari
Esp since Akaari can proc wm
And benefit from blades
wind furnace
will probably need to look into apl with rotten + venth again to see if apl uses symbols well in that combinaion
delicate osprey
it would just do the same as with pre med
crisp crypt
Do we know the rough range on 4 set? Same as ss or lower? just says nearby enemies
delicate osprey
so idk
hoary zephyr
SS > Akaari procs + evis > 4p procs + Akaari procs > evis > 4p procs + Akaari
I think that’s just bad
Tbh
wind furnace
Do we know the rough range on 4 set? Same as ss or lower? just says nearby enemi...
it seems slightly higher than storm range.
someone did say 10y but i am not sure about that
hoary zephyr
Do people here want Akaari to proc with 4p btw?
wind furnace
so for a rule of thumbs: if your target is in range of storm, it will get hit by 4p
hoary zephyr
Also Fuu range is way bigger
I think it’s strike range
Not 100% sure but definitely double than Storm
wind furnace
one thing i will need to check in the comming days is if the strike only applies to targets you are in combat with or any target
not sure if anyone tested that already
hoary zephyr
Any
wind furnace
but i think its crucial for m+
crisp crypt
any, you can snd next to swarm training dummies from stealth and itll hit all of them
wind furnace
i think thats a good dicsussion point
hoary zephyr
It’s nearest 5 targets
hoary zephyr
Only targets in combat + not cc’d
wind furnace
^ ye for pvp seems that this sould be the behaviour
hoary zephyr
Remember, this also presents a problem in PvP.
Cc breaking from strike procs
Esp in arenas where you are spamming finishers with mfd
crisp crypt
depends on range imo, if it's normal strike range defo combat only, but if its roughly storm range then i feel fine it hitting anything barring cc'd targets
hoary zephyr
Range is definitely longer than Storm range for sure
Jpc clip is also proof of that
Big proof lol
You know what I am curious about Fuu
Hear me out
- Nightstalker amp on 4p strikes
It should work on that
I think
- If strike procs from finishers
hoary zephyr
And from that clip… it seems that the guy used his snd from stealth, which proc’d the 4p and made him tp
But… if it made him TP due to stealth
wind furnace
yes
thorny spire
should it attack anything or only targets in combat
Mobs in combat with each other in some dungeons come to my mind
hoary zephyr
Wouldn’t that amp the strike as well?
wind furnace
thats because its a regular strike
wind furnace
and strike teleports you if you are out of melee
hoary zephyr
Ya
wind furnace
in stealth/vanish
crisp crypt
It counts as a regular one, that's why it also consumes symbols
wind furnace
should be
hoary zephyr
So if I get proc’d from stealth or vanish, would that mean all the strikes from the 4p are also 25%?
wind furnace
exactly
hoary zephyr
Oh
Is that tested?
Like confirmed?
So would I vanish > finisher then? Or not worth?
wind furnace
the strike cast is a regular cast but its not a "cast" event from the player but from the script (i hope i didn't misunderstood this)
and this is why wm, damage amps, etc work
but stuff that works on the "cast" of a strike don't like fw, akaari, pv
i haven't vanish-snd
you can't proc it from evi because evi breaks stealth
it seems mostly a issue? in m+ when you want to refresh snd between pulls in stealth
and could teleport
i assume the damage amp applies, i haven't tested it
hoary zephyr
it seems mostly a issue? in m+ when you want to refresh snd between pulls in ste...
Ya this would be bad
Definitely need to change it to only targets that are in combat
Or not cc’s
Cc’d
wind furnace
i could also see that the vanish-snd proc could have extended range
seems like a very edge case tho
crisp crypt
my ss crits from stealth snd proc hits for ~5k, crits from dance for around 4k so stealth does seem to amp
hoary zephyr
Also would this warrant enough to use Nightstalker now?
wind furnace
Also would this warrant enough to use Nightstalker now?
5k is possible a crit
oops wanted to quote qbie
hoary zephyr
Yeah I know you meant him
It’s okay
Lol
But ya
Wouldn’t NS be better now?
Since dance uptime is high so procing MS more?
hoary zephyr
Or whatever the last thing is called
wind furnace
MoS uptime is def. high
hoary zephyr
Ya
wind furnace
dance uptime is already around 50% (55% on kyrian) now
so both 2+4p will put that even higher
wind furnace
wdym bugged?
hoary zephyr
It doesn’t work on Bp’s second part
thorny spire
NS could be good tbh
can that starve us without focus?
wind furnace
because most of BP's power is in the physical part
sf means you have more energy out of dance too
and means you can dance without pooling rly
thorny spire
yes but afaik we mostly don't care about out of dance as backstab is wet noodle isn't it?
wind furnace
so i am rly not sure if we drop sf, but i know venthyr had ns close already before
thorny spire
interesting
wind furnace
more combo builder = more finisher = more dance
so even if we don't like to use BS out of dance, its still relevant
thorny spire
understood
wind furnace
but the tier set will make us do more finisher and have higher shd uptime
so.... we probably won't use it a lot
hoary zephyr
“Nightstalker does not increase black powder damage, same as Finality does not increase second damage black powder these are bug for a long time please notice. “ exact quote from someone else
Sorry didn’t mean to tag in a thread you are reading, force of habit
wind furnace
finality does interact with the fw part of bp to my knowlage
hoary zephyr
Hmm
delicate osprey
finality increases the phys part and by doing that it then it also increases the shadow dmg
if it also worked for the shadow one it would double dip
wind furnace
^ i think this is easy to miss from the 9.1 change.
what blizz did was make the physical part do more damage and nerfed the shadow damage part to stay relatively seen about the same
viscid hill
With the 4p rogue, if your are stealth and out of combat and your are using your cp for refreshing slice and dice, you can proc the 4p and be teleport on the closest monster and hit it with shadowstrike.
https://clips.twitch.tv/AlertUninterestedStrawberryPunchTrees-Je1N_jYA3S6UVWEX
hoary zephyr
Ya I already sent your clip lol @viscid hill
tall needle
do we know if it's intended for the proc to target CC'd targets and thus breaking it?
wind furnace
it atm procs on any enemy in range reguarless of cc or if its in combat with you
hard to say if its intended, but it would be prefered if it only targets enemies in combat that are not under crowd control
wind furnace
you mean in terms of bugs?
i am unsure, a lot of things seem questionable in intend
hazy girder
yeah just if there was anything
we were all mass reporting for fixes
bro this 4 set
IM PROCCING
unkempt peak
ngl the set bonus feels pretty good for the most part, the 2 piece seems to proc quite frequently, as for the 4 piece, it feels a little weak in single target, but pretty big on aoe
mellow urchin
Y the set might be balanced
hazy girder
are we crying about it not working with empowered cp
hazy girder
i have a kill log on the first hc boss and some pulls on the 2nd boss if anyone is interested
they're not good or anything but 3 rogues in them
(featuring the true hero of rogue theorycrafting)
hoary zephyr
@wind furnace most people I saw were doing 10.5k-11k
But I think dmg being low is nothing to worry about
It’s more about testing the set that is my biggest concern
wind furnace
subtlety didn't look that much stronger on the log than assassination.
and people assume subtlety is broken
numbers will get tuned in the end so i don't worry about them, i just did expect sub to preform noticeable better given the stronger tier set
hazy girder
later on there was a slightly bigger difference i think
and yeah our kill on the first boss was kinda messy
a lot of people were learning their sets as well as the fight etc
wind furnace
interesting nerveless, thanks for sharing
hoary zephyr
numbers will get tuned in the end so i don't worry about them, i just did expect...
I think it’s due to rng
With the nature of the set
@mellow urchin wrote about it on the forums
hoary zephyr
later on there was a slightly bigger difference i think
Can you clarify? Is that just due to fight timers or something?
Also haven’t tested double legendary yet and pretty sure sin will run Vendetta CDR leggo
hazy girder
uhm i think i just got more used to playing with it
and the 2nd fight is a bit less hectic
on the first fight i think if its done properly sub is way better
cause even with one extra target you get double shadowstrike off your evis
apparently the assa one doesnt feel good
wind furnace
Also haven’t tested double legendary yet and pretty sure sin will run Vendetta C...
possible, will maybe look at double legos next week (depends how much time i have)
hoary zephyr
I really think double legendary is gonna set up behind compared to others
Esp if sin gets reworked
wind furnace
assassination getting changed (if it is) is likely a buff to the tier set
wind furnace
also i do expect balancing to happen, so balance and some others with insane legendary combos might be not as insane
wind furnace
sin/outlaw def. get more than subtlety
wind furnace
but sub/sin are very close iirc without domination
hoary zephyr
Because finality is boring and I think finality will be better than Akaari
I definitely believe finality will be better
I know SS count goes up with the tier sets but so does finishers
Ss count due to dance uptime
subtle shale
some logs from ptr our guild did
set feels great on the first boss with one extra target
hazy girder
ye when they're stacked its pretty sick
mellow urchin
also i do expect balancing to happen, so balance and some others with insane leg...
dont think the set should be nerfed
wind furnace
oh no, i don't think any nerf makes sense at this point in time
hoary zephyr
Is there anything specific that you wanna test out more? @wind furnace
wind furnace
not sure rly
severe ingot
i cant seem to find this info anywhere, does the extra shadowstrike from Akaari's potentially proc 2set?
mellow urchin
not atm no
severe ingot
Sadge
mellow urchin
So after some more testing i updated my feedback post
Overall the set comes with a solid gameplay loop and plays into the strengths of the spec. Getting more Shadow Blades uptime really accelerates the downtime (Backstab) part of the rotation. I like that it also offers some cleave potential which is something subtlety has been lacking for many years now. However the amount of RNG included in this set is actually on very awkward levels and the 4p does not feel great to play with at all.
The main issue is that you’re just playing your game and suddenly you get 3-4 CPs mid dance and if you then strike again you will overcap CPs. With some preliminary testing on PTR you’re wasting about 30-40 CPs that you have 0 control over. This has to be adjusted in some way because as it is right now, this 4p is really just unfun.
alpine sentinel
every sixth finisher you cast shadowstrike at up to 5 nearby enemies?
alpine sentinel
I'm suggesting
so it allows you to control 4set
but I guess there might be a reason they've made it RNG
mellow urchin
what reason
alpine sentinel
"some reason"
mellow urchin
i mean ye sure but whats the thought process behind their being a specific reason
except for "this might be fun"
and it isnt
alpine sentinel
Blizzard designers have ancient design knowledge that also allowed them to implement rerolling on Outlaw in Legion/BfA
hazy girder
the cp wasting is the big thing
but i agree with your post in general push
it does feel amazing when its proccing but infuriating when its not
mellow urchin
its just ass for kyrian
like maybe not numerically ass
but the gameplay
is ass
ive played some hours on the dummy as NF, venthyr and kyrian
and kyrian by far feels the worst
the anima cps are close to impossible to hit with that much dance and blades
and it just doesnt feel impactful
while on venthyr it speeds up your flag windows and give you 30 stacks basically guaranteed
mellow urchin
night fae just seems very rng
hazy girder
I noticed it felt like an improvement on venthyr
As kyrian it makes the spec feel kind of outlaw-esque
I wonder if it properly benefitted form the 7 cps if it would become reliable enough to feel better to play with
hazy girder
Ye
mellow urchin
but just not very fun imo
you have to hope for some weird shit
like getting a 4p proc when not having blades up
hazy girder
Ye
mellow urchin
or pray you dont have blades when you leave dance
not very fun to pray you dont have cds up
hazy girder
It’s either a proc that just lands on 2 for you or only using ER on 0 without blades
I think it’d be nice to see a set bonus that interacted with vanish better if it was possible to suggest that kind of rework
Which could in turn make the legendaries we have for it not just be for prepull
Or perhaps, if we use the outlaw 4 set as a bit of inspiration (which I understand sucks for them) but…
Say instead of % chance per cp spent it would kind of bank the proc for you in some way
After spending 20 cps you get 10 for free or whatever the math needs to work out at
Where it would become a bit like the rogue legendary dagger proc in cata
mellow urchin
idk our set has no clear theme
2p shadowblades
4p random strikes
if the 4p had synergy with 2p, perhaps it would be coolio
hazy girder
Well our spec in general is just in a weird place
The talent tree speaks volumes
As does the efficacy of our legendaries pre-covenant
Not that we’re not strong but thematically it’s kind of all over the place
Blades damage also works for finishers?
Rupture included
mellow urchin
hum?
hazy girder
Idk just an idea for
mellow urchin
oh yea idk
hazy girder
What could maybe work
mellow urchin
i dont think they gonna rework the 4p
if anything they might drop the cps
and buff its dmg
or something
hazy girder
Lmfao
hazy girder
Did he come up with secret technique too
mellow urchin
nah
hazy girder
Cause he basically just made eviscerate have a chance to cast secret technique
hazy girder
No
mellow urchin
you think the 4p is like sec tech?
hazy girder
Yeah isn’t it basically
mellow urchin
i mean
except for the fact that it was 5-6t cap
not really
sec tech is a 2 part spell
very weird
in how it works
this 4p gives cps
and doesnt have a cd
legit nothing alike
hazy girder
Idk it seems similar conceptually to me but I’ve literally only ever specced secret technique by mistake
mellow urchin
i mean fair enough, i just dont see any similarities 
hazy girder
Idk in my head when you mentioned if they removed the cps it seemed like it would become a similar sort of thing but
I’ve only ever read the tooltip of that talent
mellow urchin
its very strange
its like a bigger st hit into aoe and then 0.5 sec later or something another aoe hit which is just a weaker version of the first aoe blast
hazy girder
I thought it sounded cool when I resubbed and was looking through what was new and then found out it was terrible
mellow urchin
its pretty cool thematically, but its trash
hazy girder
Ye
wind furnace
i mean ye sure but whats the thought process behind their being a specific reaso...
late tot he discussion. But subtlety is very strategic in gameplay. So i assume putting in rng is a attempt to change this
wind furnace
sec tech is a 2 part spell
actually 3 part
wind furnace
@mellow urchin I tested 4p on ptr for a bit and didn't find it to be super bad.
If the cp loss is to high we might change finishing strategy, so its probably worth to discuss if that is a possible solution
mellow urchin
<@!153289634909126656> I tested 4p on ptr for a bit and didn't find it to be sup...
Nah, but its trash to play imo, at least with kyrian
wind furnace
due to er?
i can see that being the case because you have less chances to get to the values you want
mellow urchin
Anima cps
wind furnace
i feel like ER not working with 4p correctly and 2p/up generating less chances to proc the anima from ER could be annoying
mellow urchin
Just have to hope its not the best for dps
hoary zephyr
should be tho right? due to losing double daggers? @wind furnace
wind furnace
wdym?
hoary zephyr
isnt Kyrian going to lose value more than Venthyr because of 2nd sylv dagger?
losing double sylv dagger
prob wont use MH Sylv
hoary zephyr
yes
wind furnace
*currently
zenith minnow
do we have sims for the tier set yet or nah
wind furnace
i did some very rough estimates of the 2p and it ended up at around 8% dps increase, what is quite a lot given that the sims i did had domination sets enabled
(what i did however was just to make shb last longer in the sim, so it was not a perfect estimate)
mellow urchin
ye its way more random than that
and the shadowblades usually happen inside dance
- increasing the length of blades probably makes stiletto way better than it should be
8% sounds meh tho
considering the 4p is prob whatever
wind furnace
8% with domination is way more without given the lower baseline
mellow urchin
why
wind furnace
domination is a more or less static damage increase
mellow urchin
what set did you sim with
unholy probably makes the shadowblades better than it should be
wind furnace
so if you get 900 dps from shb (just a random number)
900 dps from 9k is 10%
900 dps from 13k is 7%
mellow urchin
its way less than 900 dps
yea
i get that
but the extra shadowblades can have synergy with sets
wind furnace
i mean it was a very rough estimate with 150% additional shb uptime
mellow urchin
if i do aquick comparison
between live shb dps (no extra cp involved)
and ptr shb dps
the dps gain from just shb dmg is like 300 dps
300-400 dps
idk how much dps the extra cps are tho
like this is not scientific or anything, but ehh
dummy dps diff is like 1300 dps on avg for live vs ptr
live is like 8200 dps on dummy, ptr i can do 9500 quite consistently (both venthyr)
wind furnace
if they aim for 10-15% then it might be more than enough for 2p
wind furnace
10-15% is my estimate. I think whispyr talked about 10-12%
wind furnace
you did raid testing iirc?
if so, did they dissable domination gems and sets or only sets?
mellow urchin
i didnt raid test myself, just looked at logs from it
idk if they disabled the shards as well
wind furnace
if they don't i could see us potentially using 1-2 during the next raid
wind furnace
thats my concern, tier set will at least in the beginning take up 4 slots, we lose another 2 to legendary items and potentially 2 more to domination
hoary zephyr
wont be 2 dom sockets
actually
wait I lied
yes it will be
nvm
I forgot about boots
mellow urchin
i assume they will nuke the shards
mellow urchin
not great to have people feeling forced to do old raids to get shards
mellow urchin
ye
hoary zephyr
and there is no catch up on it
mellow urchin
thats just stupid too
hoary zephyr
yeah I agree lmao
hoary zephyr
Ya if only there was a vendor which could convert a couple of embers into a single item that you could send BoA to other characters of yours
Shame
wind furnace
i was actually surprised that they didn't opt for a more agressive catchup on the gems
i don't care personally because i cba playing a lot of alts but it seems restrictive for no reason
spark cairn
Have there been any talks regarding what double legendaries we'll end up running as Sub? I want to believe it'll just be Obedience (or RC) and Finality, but have there been any talks regarding Akaari's or The Rotten despite the former not really working with the set bonuses?
wind furnace
its hard to predict
i did some simulations on it earlier today but they are not very rough estimates
it will be probably between finality, shadowdust, rotten, akaaris and deathly
both dust and deathly could fall out of the equation due to pre pull shananigans
night fae:
#subtlety message
venthyr:
#subtlety message
kyrian:
#subtlety message
^ the links, but as i mention in the channel they are very rough/scuffed estimates
so pls take them with a gigantic portion of salt
spark cairn
Why would Shadowdust be so much better as Venthyr? I've never used it before; does it just reduce Flag's CD?
wind furnace
likely makes certain cooldowns align better
but as mentioned, the pre pull stuff is also relevant for now what means dust/deathly potentially fall out of fav.
some additional things to keep in mind is that the apl is also not optimized for double legendary use yet
so there could be a improvement somewhere
winged fiber
4 pc working with 2 pc for aoe would be pog
even if only 1 of the ss's can proc ShB
wind furnace
both fw and shb procs from 4p would be rly good
mellow urchin
4 pc working with 2 pc for aoe would be pog
yea it kinda has to imo
make adjustments if you must, as in nerfing the set or whatever
but the 4p must proc the 2p
or there is anti-synergy built into the set, which is kinda awkward
winged fiber
Definitely just feels real awkward
mellow urchin
My opinion on this set
Gets more gloomy
And dark by each day that passes
Not a big fan of the double rng bonus
Gonna be some fucking casino gameplay
Sylv daggers on crack
wind furnace
the rng in this case seems okay
as long as they keep a high proc chance
ofc anything that can be controlled makes a lot more sense for the spec
mellow urchin
Both are rng
Tho
The set value can be very low with bad rng
Which will kill dps
mellow urchin
I have seen 15-20% swings in blades uptime on dummies in ptr
wind furnace
the set does give 0 promise to do more damage when you need it
wind furnace
the chances are high enough to make it not feel bad
the set would be a utter disaster if the chances got lowered to much
mellow urchin
Honestly prob my least fav sub version thus far, based on early ptr testing ofc
Nyalotha sub >>> this version
wind furnace
thats kind of a fear too
we probably need to play with the set for a long time
this is why it would be better if it was excitinhg
wind furnace
i can see the sin set with short burst cycles (kinda dfa like) to work fairly well
and change up the spec to be fun
mellow urchin
Would massively prefer a set that just did something
Instead of a chance of doing something
wind furnace
i think both 2 and 4p work out from a conceptual point of view
esp. help with what subtlety is bad at
mellow urchin
Could be not rng tho
wind furnace
absolutely
i would need to look closer at other classes too
to have some kind of comparison how sets work out for them
hazy girder
2p: shadow blades now lasts until cancelled
Let’s go
Idk how they could change it easily to remove rng from it
Shadow dance gives you blades for 5 sec?
Causes maybe some negative problems
And the 4p I don’t think can be done unless they just make it no different to sylvanas daggers
Any kind of static chance would have to have a minuscule damage effect if it was still going to give you cps
mossy carbon
It feels awkward, and maybe it's just me playing poorly, to plan for 2/3 dances in flag buff as symbols comes up (say you have 35 seconds on 2nd dance cd when symbols is 10 seconds away) then get 2 or 3 4p procs and overcapping on dance charges (or doing dance evis or similar just so you don't overcap).
I also dislike needing to wait and check my combo points after every finisher (especially in AoE), to make sure I'm not wasting combo points.
Kyrian also feels really shit to play as Push mentioned, feel like (without knowing anything about bosses) performance will be heavily determined by if/when you get 4p procs (and how many 2p procs you get)
hazy girder
the 1st boss alone exaggerated the differences between good rng and bad rng
and that was just 1 extra target
the 2nd boss, I'm not sure I ever remember thinking I high-rolled
I don't know if that's because i didn't or it was just less obvious on the meter
forest hamlet
Are the sets supposed to work in m+?
wind furnace
yes
winged fiber
is like arms warriors now
like sure the average will be there over a bunch of pull sbut
a good pull or parse or w/e is just did you have 80%+ uptime on colossus smash
which is what we'll be but with shadowblades
delicate osprey
we will have the post your 90% blades uptime
wind furnace
I fear that we end up somewhat like pb in legion
delicate osprey
at this rate yes it will be most likely variance can already become quite big with weaponmaster alone
now we have two rotating gears added to the infinity highroll machine
you can proc more blades that proc more weaponmaster while blades are up that proc more finishers
unkempt peak
It's one of the reasons I've always hated RNG, literally putting your faith in chance, yeah it feels good when the stars align, but boy does it suck when you get unlucky... Literally why not just change the tooltip from "20% chance to proc SB from SS", to "every 5th shadowstrike triggers 5 seconds of shadowblades" then you are still maintaining the whole 1 in 5 odds, but you aren't making it complete RNG
Or even each shadow strike has a 20% change to proc SB for 5 seconds, each SS increases the chance by 20% until SB procs
hoary zephyr
I think they need to make the 2p proc chance 25% and change the 4p
But idk how they can change it
Either that or make the 4p interact with Akaari, PV etc
But I am in the same position as Push, I think about it more and more and it is pretty shit
My problem with it is that you have no control in your set
Like, look at Sin for example, it might be dogshit but they have control in the 2p and 4p
They can choose when to activate it
You could go almost entire fight with either JPC Tazavesh level procs (10 procs in a row) or 0 procs for 3 mins
And that is a shit feeling
mellow urchin
The set seems underwhelming in testing too
Its worrying that its hard to keep up with classes that have a 10%+ legendary waiting for them
wind furnace
2p and 4p should be 10%+
for legendaries, i feel like they need to do tuning on those who got rly strong ones
mellow urchin
2p and 4p should be 10%+
this is assuming interactions work
which they dont
atm
the current sim is just WM increased in chance right
a WM shadowstrike got the interactions with all of our stuff except for PV stacks
the set shadowstrike is a blank 0 interaction, just dmg and cp shadowstrike
wind furnace
i don't mean 10% each but both together
wind furnace
i don't remember how high 2p was in my estimate with the higher shb uptime
but shadowstrike is atm at around 13% of our damage.
so 4p should at minimum give us 20% of that, what still isn't that big with around 3% dps
assuming that you get potentially more strikes, you can look probably at 4-5% from 4p strikes
mellow urchin
the 4p isnt just dmg tho
mellow urchin
nice edit
yea
the sim i have seen is 8% on 4p with just tweaking WM % chance to proc
which is basically what the 4p is
plucky storm
giveme a sec
Don’t mean to ruin the party, but the sims he’s talking about are mine
wind furnace
well, feel free to post them then
wind furnace
you did also use the 50 sec i used in the 2p sim, that one seemed about on point. nice
but
you did not use shadowlands.enable_rune_words="0"
wind furnace
it just changes the baseline, it won't make a difference in terms of raw damage gain
plucky storm
Aha
wind furnace
its more about how much % gain you get
funny how 2p + 4p ends up somewhere around what we have now dps wise
seems like ~16% for venthyr
mellow urchin
cool beans
plucky storm
Omega being double legendary and the estimations for both sets
Obviously very rough estimate
Cause ya know
It’s all a bit janky hacks atm
wind furnace
i mean i did also say scuffed sims
plucky storm
Yeh
mellow urchin
how come
akaari is a 1.7% upg on playing without a 2nd legendary, just noticed the 2+4p dps %
is there some
devilish thing i am missing in this
wind furnace
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wFMzTiTCrJTptcNfvawqqn
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/f9CmMH8hhKY2EKJhhjKGiQ
kyrian is slightly higher in terms of output
17% gain
mellow urchin
i think the difference will be significantly less
once daggers are gonezo
ive played venthyr on testing so far at least
plucky storm
devilish thing i am missing in this
The gain of the 2 piece is about 900, the gain of akaari is about 360, the gain together is 1270
wind furnace
then you will at least keep one in offhand
plucky storm
The % is misleading
mellow urchin
i see
plucky storm
Cause the 360 from akaari
Is still there
It just doesn’t interact
And is now worth comparatively less
mellow urchin
makes sense
wind furnace
i can re-do the scuffed double lego sims quick with 2 + 4p estimate
last time i only did with 2p
mellow urchin
Trashkaari
plucky storm
i can re-do the scuffed double lego sims quick with 2 + 4p estimate
I left the variables commented out in the input if you wanna snag those
wind furnace
thanks whisp, can take a look but already have the overwrites ^^
ofc. i don't add the legendary, just the power
so scuffed sim
mellow urchin
our legendaries are soooo bad
subtle shale
Man our legendaries are underwhelming.
mellow urchin
plucky storm
It’s like a mini blood set
mellow urchin
we are going full cleave dream boys
plucky storm
We aren’t losing dom sockets after all
subtle shale
Oh no
subtle shale
The rotten
wind furnace
tbh
mellow urchin
it probably impacts the 50 second blades way more than it should
wind furnace
oh ye, its just a estimate
also dust is ded as long as we can do prepull shananigans
mellow urchin
yea
rotten being top is nice tho
actual gameplay legendary
and not just a passive benefit
wind furnace
i mean there are potential for some apl changes with 9.2 too
so will need to dive into that once we have a stable iteration of the tier set
subtle shale
Finality as a leggo is so bland
wind furnace
but 2x legendary + 4p being at 13k
13.3k
thats not significant higher
than what we have atm
wind furnace
and this is till with domination gems
mellow urchin
makes it kinda hard to blow it out of the water
wind furnace
keep that in mind
wind furnace
did see that on testing
not sure if they keep that
i could see us at least use 1-2 gems
nigth fae was to far behind last time i simmed to bring into the conversation i guess
both venthyr and kyrian are about 21% from 2nd lego + tier set
sylvanas dagger does quite a lot for kyrian atm
delicate osprey
i can see rotten for venth ye
kyrian does seem to favour aakari more
still waiting for the sepsis buff
wind furnace
sepsis buff so everyone can play toxic 
delicate osprey
i do enjoy feeling like a little more burst
you can also kind of game it
if there are adds
wind furnace
i think soulshape is rly good
mellow urchin
@wind furnace (print from akaari sim)
you need to redo the sims from earlier
but with stiletto
otherwise the 50 sec blades trick doesnt work
33% is almost half of what you can get on ptr
wind furnace
oh
i copied the wrong profile then
giveme a sec
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/m7QNXjrSipuzoBn11ARDpo
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/h4cTPnn32hjDmysFirVx9E
this actually puts venthyr and kyrian very close together
wind furnace
kyrian uses stiletto
mellow urchin
oh
wind furnace
delicate osprey
pog dust
delicate osprey
not bad not bad
well we still need to see how the dom sockets thingy would work
if a rank 5 one+252 outweights the hc ilvl at least
but that is almost all for prog
i guess 278 and higher will be better baseline
wind furnace
also means venthyr probably benefits more from the set
delicate osprey
ye kyrian has anti sinergy actually
wind furnace
puts it ar 23%+
delicate osprey
human error and rng make hitting the 2 cp one kinda harder
delicate osprey
i think it really depends for st PV might be better by a bit
wind furnace
so might be slightly diffrent but tbh if both are good, its actually pog
delicate osprey
stiletto is really versatile for everything else
although if we only get 1 conduit rank more
wind furnace
pls share
mellow urchin
sec
i am verifying it
@wind furnace so apparently akaaris dmg isnt included into blades?
how long has this been a thing? i am sure it worked earlier in SL
in simc
last 2 dmg events = akaari and blades interaction
but thats completely missing from the sim
both on live and ptr
delicate osprey
oh that is a good find
wind furnace
^
delicate osprey
now even moreso with high blades uptime could make stiletto inch further
wind furnace
ill report it to koji/mystler to fix it
mellow urchin
i am quite sure it worked in simc during 9.0
and then suddenly just got removed i guess?
weird
delicate osprey
core updates change many things maybe it got taken out in a commit
and no one cared kekw
or maybe it's in but not tied to aakari and just uncommented
wind furnace
unsure, would need to check commits
but this should put akaaris value quite a bit higher
livid ferry
delicate osprey
we are like shadowpriests now finding the gold in rivers
mellow urchin
should make necrolord better too 
delicate osprey
man does sbs still not work with blades
mellow urchin
not sure
delicate osprey
they fixed sepsis but then forgot about sbs ahaha
mellow urchin
cus akaari is their st legendary
wind furnace
oh
mellow urchin
and they dont have anything else
delicate osprey
ahaha
mellow urchin
ye but finality is like akaari even without shadowblades working
livid ferry
Finality is trash
livid ferry
Ye looks like thats all the big stuff
wind furnace
if they do it might be a bit ... strong
livid ferry
I mean he said the set is on the tuning radar
But I think it would be quite dumb to do any level of tuning before 2x legendaries are put on ptr
wind furnace
sure but tuning it with proc chances seems like it would give worse player feedback
livid ferry
Ye it would be bad
grave peak
nerfing a 15%~ tier set feelsbadman
wind furnace
i don't rly want a 4% chance to proc 4p
livid ferry
Yea no one does
The sets already being rng feels quite bad
Nerfing their proc chances would be stupid
They’d just feel like shit
livid ferry
Probably reduce duration added by 2pc
wind furnace
2p shb time could be reduced
for 4p there is not rly a lot of room outside of just straight out tining strike damage down
livid ferry
Idk you could remove the cp
grave peak
removing cp and buffing proc chance would be kinda nice maybe
livid ferry
Idk i think tuning rn would be a dumb idea
livid ferry
removing cp and buffing proc chance would be kinda nice maybe
Ye
grave peak
so you get more actual cleaved shadowstrikes but get less random ass combo points
livid ferry
I’d be down for that
I’d like that a lot tbh
More synergy with 2 pc
Cause more free strikes
More proc chances
Less random cp
livid ferry
I just hope they hold off on the tuning man
wind furnace
tuning will happen sooner or later
livid ferry
Idk how its a logical thing to do when you have another big piece of the patch coming soon
Like that just does not seem smart
wind furnace
weather we like it or not
wind furnace
<https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/class-set-feedback-rogue/1143962/53>
agree auxeus
livid ferry
I am fine with tuning if we are actually just broken with all the borrowed power combined
But our legendaries
Suck
And they obviously don’t equally tune the borrowed power across all specs
So to them only the grand total end amount is what matters
wind furnace
agree to a certain degree
wind furnace
i think blizz rly needs to tune some rly big outliners
livid ferry
This isn’t even an opinion
wind furnace
yes
livid ferry
Its just factual
wind furnace
well
to be fair having slight outliners is fine
e.g. one class having 6%, other 8% is fine
livid ferry
Well yea thats not the case though
wind furnace
if they have equal imbalance in other systems, so that it balances out somehow
livid ferry
We have 26% legendaries
wind furnace
but having like 4% from subtlety
livid ferry
In fire mage
wind furnace
vs. 25% from balance
livid ferry
It is how it is
wind furnace
thats propper 
livid ferry
Just don’t knee jerk nerf a tier set cause it seems powerful
Before you implement 2x leges
grave peak
nerf obedience and ret legendary, leave ravenous frenzy alone
livid ferry
Makes no sense
grave peak
xd
wind furnace
the problem is, it can easy be overdone
livid ferry
I just dont trust blizzard to actually reverse any dumb tuning
Imagine they nerf the set
Then 2x leges come out
Were mediocre as shit
Don’t get any tuning in the opposite direction to compensate
Mediocre meme spec for another year
Thats a likely timeline i see if this dude just knee jerk nerfs our spec
grave peak
yeah i can easily see rogues getting fucked next tier actually ngl
outlaw and sin lose busted ass frost set
theres a chance they nerf daggers
sub has shit legendaries
ocean ridge
based on what they said about the strength of the sub tier im doubting the nerf will be too large
if they nerf at sall
they say its over-tuned but they also say its only a little overtuned and they may or may NOT nerf it
wind furnace
I just dont trust blizzard to actually reverse any dumb tuning
i think its about information
livid ferry
When you still have a massive piece of the patch missing, you just wait
Its simple logic
ocean ridge
yep
wind furnace
blizz atm just has no tools to deal with balancing well
ocean ridge
at least they admit the akaari interaction is a bug
wind furnace
rogue did suffer from being tuned well
when devs forgot to tune other specs/classes
grave peak
yeah thats nice
ocean ridge
guess it means akaari will increase in value
grave peak
all the bugfixes are very nice
livid ferry
Yea basically fixing all of the really major bad stuff
grave peak
kyrians still kinda cringe though even with the bugfix tho
gl hitting points with random ass shadowstrikes and blade procs
ocean ridge
i still rather kyrian
livid ferry
Too lucky = bad
ocean ridge
its less likely to be fucked up
livid ferry
Ill play whatever doesn’t matter to me
ocean ridge
although depending on the amount of CP, it may be possible not to fuck up next tier
livid ferry
Shadowdust venthyr build sounds riveting
ocean ridge
shadowdust?
grave peak
no shot you actually play shadowdust with prepull shit
livid ferry
Yea fuu did some bare bones tier set double lege sims
grave peak
the rotten being potentially good sounds kinda cool tho
livid ferry
Dust for venthyr was quite big
Ye
Im just glad its not finality 
Who knows maybe they make vanish actually worth using not in prepull
wind furnace
not sure how
mellow urchin
the interesting part about venthyr shadowdust
is that its like the only legendary that has some synergy with the rest of the build
wind furnace
it does sound interessting
but dust pre pull cheese potentially catabolizes the build
livid ferry
Yea it would have to be far ahead of the other stuff
mellow urchin
i think akaari will be the best legendary
for all covenants
once its fixed
in simc
now that the 4p is also procing akaari
livid ferry
Ye
wind furnace
will be fixed soon™️
wind furnace
livid ferry
Then go into dance trying to extend it
mellow urchin
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/022ff7e7eb1e1fa8a12b6965d8b2f4748...
i am a bit confused about the shadowblades being fixed
in 9.1.5
thats from sludgefist
a 7+ month old log
its been working since sl released
and i knew this but i always assumed it was in simc too
mellow urchin
i think kyrian will gain quite a bit
from PV working with the 4p
since you cant run PV on venthyr
also interesting that PV is fixed for the 4p before its fixed with the regular WMs from the talent
livid ferry
Or akaari
livid ferry
Not stack pv
mellow urchin
thats not going to happen i think
akaari strike is way different
"As you can see, that’s a lot of issues with the 4-piece Shadowstrike not working as you all might expect it should"
i really like this part of the blue post
cus that was always my concern, you should be able to look at the set and just assume everything about shadowstrike works with it
and then tune it after that
not tune it based on the set missing interactions
thats just stupid
livid ferry
Its what happens when you have like 3 different shadowstrike spell id’s
Ah no mention of weaponmaster strikes being able to proc 2 pc
ocean ridge
time to craft akaari
hoary zephyr
@mellow urchin @wind furnace @livid ferry opinions on the blue post?
wind furnace
set might be rly strong now
livid ferry
Also ye the bug fixes add some pretty significant power
mellow urchin
akaari working in aoe poggers
feral schooner
I am shocked they are listening to feedback
Great to see them actually trying to fix most of the bugs and so we have some options
wind furnace
i am not entirely sure if it will end up for the better or the worse
but we will see
unkempt peak
Right now do we know if Venthyr or Kyrian is looking like the play? once they fix all the bugs they pointed out
livid ferry
Kyrian will probably be better numerically but uh
unkempt peak
i like close, im a big fan or preference picks 😉
livid ferry
It can feel bad to play at times
unkempt peak
i might be an odd one out, but i went back to venthyr, after playing kyrian in raid for the past month i think i prefer venthyr
livid ferry
F.ex if you get too lucky in kyrian opener you miss 2nd anima cp
livid ferry
Just waiting for our sets to be implemented in simc 
unkempt peak
/cancel shadowblade macro XD
livid ferry
Ye
unkempt peak
???
wind furnace
mystler or koji
wind furnace
not sure, is there anything not obviouse atm?
wind furnace
ah, fair
mellow urchin
and it wasnt mentioned as a bug
wind furnace
ill add it to the list
well
i mean it needs testing after the change i guess
but they only come with reset
wind furnace
it says so in the blue post
