#tc-subtlety

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

rugged solar
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from 10.1?

valid robin
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no

past fable
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Grieftorch

valid robin
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i dont fucking know its name kekl

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its just called guzzler

rugged solar
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ohh

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torch

valid robin
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anyway

rugged solar
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let me quick test the thing you mentioned

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then i can see what the apl does diffrent to what your rotation suggests

valid robin
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i found that there is a nice and consistent gameplay loop while playing dust+rotten+flag, where you basically get 2 dances for each flag without playing 2 dance

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and rotten makes it more smooth with the stack building

rugged solar
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i think the lower cdr on dance

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killed 2 dance completely off

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sadly

valid robin
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  • using symbols and gloomblade in dance makes that gloomblade do a ton of damage while also just being the guaranteed FW crit etc
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this is from trying it out ingame

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thats a chunker

rugged solar
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69k, nice

valid robin
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well its 69k + 32k + 35k

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its all just that 1 gloomblade

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cus you have lingering up from the previous dance when doing this

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almost 140k dmg from 1 gloomblade use

rugged solar
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oh ye

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kinda jucy

valid robin
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i also think ur gonna play 10.1 tier set based on rotten

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not symbols uptime

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so you prob dont hold it for 100% uptime

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rather use it to buff in dance builders

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and ensure more finishers in 6 second dances

rugged solar
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symbols will be interessting

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because you can use it for energy too

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so you have multiple things you can consider important

valid robin
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so 10.1 gameplay might be:
Dance-gloomblade
Sectech
Strike
Evisc
Symbols + Strike/Gloom (gloom if you have lingering)
Evisc

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ur gonna have like 70%+ uptime no matter what

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of symbols

rugged solar
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will depend

valid robin
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ye idk, i think this tier set and rotten gives 6 sec dances the same amount of finishers as 8 sec dance

rugged solar
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your damage outside of dance is still high

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but ye could def. be a area that is more important

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between 100% uptime, better cd alignment and energy

valid robin
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the main issue with rotten gameplay

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and those talents

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is that 10.1 has a bunch of shadowflame stuff

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and losing dark brew + DD shadow amps

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is kinda bad

past fable
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Ye theres trinkets, a new embellishment and a new engi thing instead of cr that also does shadowflame so ye kekman

valid robin
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Makes me wish the global amps werent a thing

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I would prefer if sub wasnt an item proc spec

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And instead had interesting gameplay of its own. So remove the global amps and buff the amps

rugged solar
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📈

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shadow dance -> gloombladewith rotten when on low cp

valid robin
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you know what this gain is

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mostly

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waaay less rotten waste

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think its 33 cps wasted with regular apl

rugged solar
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it is likely mostly in the opener

valid robin
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and 12 here

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and i assume those 12 is some WM rng

rugged solar
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yes, it seemed logical to me too

valid robin
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it falls off tho

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it vanishes and uses symbols instantly

rugged solar
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its the first iteration, so lets see if we can improve

valid robin
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and doesnt use it in dance anymore

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its also without flag

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this build

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i dont think DM is good with 6 sec dance

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so the only thing you really change is DM -> flag

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that simmed higher for me too

rugged solar
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think we would use flag and sepsis if we could shortcut pv

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flag sims 0.2% behind

valid robin
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weird

rugged solar
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but let me check with the updates

valid robin
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but the entire thing i mentioned was with flag in mind, otherwise it doesnt really matter

rugged solar
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with new apl

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vs.

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old

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flag does seem to lose out more

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but posssible that there is room for improvements in both

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so all fine, we iterate

valid robin
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ideally it should only vanish with these conditions:
flag used recently
symbols on cd
dance on cd

But the important part is that flag was recently used

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and it shouldnt back to back vanish

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if its possible to stop that

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want to spread out the vanishes

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1 vanish per 1 flag

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no point in spamming vanish during opener

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ur only getting 2 dances in the flag window anyway

rugged solar
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fixing vanish should be easy

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i think there was still a optimization in the pins

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it does not back to back with DM

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that possibly explains the diffrence

valid robin
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possibly

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i just know it plays really well ingame

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like its actually not janky or unfun

turbid pulsar
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i might have to try this

rugged solar
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fixing double vanish

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guess ill need to check things manually

valid robin
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its also quite bursty when everything lines up

turbid pulsar
rugged solar
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it isn't playing vanish badly i assume

valid robin
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still just sending vanishes

rugged solar
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thats the pre change one

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you want it to pool vanishes i assume

valid robin
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yes

rugged solar
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so it uses vanish for 2nd flag

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kinda

valid robin
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to ensure double dance

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for each flag

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yes

rugged solar
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ye, lets see

valid robin
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there shouldnt be any downside

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to holding vanish

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as its 2 charge and ur not losing cdr

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i asked chat gpt

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to write me lines for this

rugged solar
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did it spit out something good?

valid robin
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actions+=/vanish,if=buff.flagellation.up&buff.flagellation.remains<=16&cooldown.shadow_dance.remains>0&cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>0&!buff.vanish_check.up

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and

rugged solar
valid robin
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actions+=/variable,name=vanish_check_duration,value=30
actions+=/buff.vanish_check.up,if=action.flagellation.execute_remains&!buff.vanish_check.up,duration=variable.vanish_check_duration

rugged solar
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i did it

valid robin
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apparently you can add vanish checks?

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so it doesnt vanish more than once

rugged solar
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moment ill look at the line

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the value is just flag out 30

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thats nonesense

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but funny

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lets see what simc says

valid robin
rugged solar
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1.6 is quite good

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esp. given that it might be possible to further improve

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there you go

image.png
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the expected error log

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it just tries to generate something that looks legit

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the first line is slightly more reasonable

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but also would fail on the vanish_check

valid robin
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there are some gains to be had here

image.png
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its using flag in dance

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pretty sure you can just make it not use flag in dance

rugged solar
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can do that

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but would delay till after

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or you want delay dance

valid robin
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can check both

rugged solar
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(or better test both)

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haha

valid robin
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i assume holding dance for like 2-3 seconds will win out

rugged solar
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probably ye

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moment, afk for some minutes, but can check when i am back

valid robin
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it seems to do some jank in the end of that sim as well

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probably due to fight ending

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its using a flag at 3:06 (without vanish cus it desyncs for this use specifically)

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then it vanishes before using flag

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when flag is literally up within 4 seconds

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when it could have just held that vanish for 4 more seconds

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it probably wasted other CDR as well

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but ye the flag uses if played correctly is indeed:
0
1
2
3
4:30
5:30
6:30

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the 5th use will run its full CD cus you have no vanish ready

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but then you have back to back vanish up for the 2 next flags again

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another min/max thing to consider is to make that vanish be used in dance, after sec tech

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just like on live

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to make sure ur not vanish striking during lingering shadows

rugged solar
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me adding a fall back to use vanish if the fight is about to end

valid robin
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can prob remove that

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cus ur getting a flag+vanish at 4:30 something

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shouldnt waste

rugged solar
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back

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removing halfs the damage

image.png
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so think ill keep it for now

valid robin
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probably doing something weird

rugged solar
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possible, i can come back to it with more fine tuning if we find more gains

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just to quickly show the overall gain of the 2 changes

image.png
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1.8% dps from both changes is quite good

valid robin
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its still doing weird stuff

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like flagging mid dance

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dunno if you ever tried removing it from dance

rugged solar
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haven't tried yet, but will try in a moment

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its something

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lets look at the other way around

valid robin
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if anything i think its good practice

rugged solar
valid robin
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so holding dance for flag

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how many seconds is it?

rugged solar
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in this case it just does not use dance when flag is up

valid robin
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HUHH

rugged solar
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basically delays dance casts

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when flag is up

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till you use it

valid robin
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ye but maybe you should put a threshhold on it

rugged solar
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shouldn't lead to much of a delay

valid robin
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so it doesnt hold dance for long

rugged solar
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flag has fairly simple rules

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it is almost "use on 5 cp"

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so the delay it creates is fairly minor

valid robin
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ye

rugged solar
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just to note this, DM combinations will benefit from removing the specific vanish handling when applying the above.
needs to be tested if its only for dance + flag or in general

ivory kestrel
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yea adding to this for sepsis and flag with tfd on opener you can ignore the free strike but for other dances i found that using building to 4 or 5 then blades sepsis flag finish strike then dance evis stab to always have a PV stab in there is also quite good

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this takes into account you play stiletto and tfd though

rugged solar
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testing from @past fable for bacon

past fable
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The sim was a bit sus because it shouldnt be such a massive drop going from grief to beacon, so you can probably ignore the top one and just focus on the 3 copies with beacon

rugged solar
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deeper dagger is usually up for most of the fight

past fable
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Ye its mostly for the opener

rugged solar
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so the above is more of a "on cd" use

past fable
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Since you only get 2.4 uses its quite good to get +16% dmg on one of them

rugged solar
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on cd did surprisingly not beat symbols sync consistently

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most of the time ended up the same

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but bacon might just need the torch rules

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moment, ill test

past fable
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But with PE specced i suspect you want to line it up with that too, since the hit is so big critting is just a massive swing

rugged solar
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tier set def. could change it

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i did shoot koji a dm, hope he can implement the tier set this week

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so i can do apl stuff and spreadsheet updates soon

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simply applying the torch rules

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1% dps poggers

past fable
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But theres probably a better way to sync it than to cold blood, and super minmaxy you probably want to use it right after sectech so the biggest agibuff hits your shadows and not the initial hit but

rugged solar
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could def. see potential

past fable
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Sorry for the rapidfire ones but i did the bomb dispenser too and god damned, its a lot better

rugged solar
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huh

past fable
rugged solar
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no need to be sorry

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bomb dispenser has a lot of room for sniping and stuff

past fable
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The hard part about writing the use case for bomb is to allow other on-use trinkets too i'd imagine

rugged solar
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i love the warning

image.png
past fable
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Oups, forgot to comment that one out kekman

rugged solar
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btw.

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just to mention it

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you only need to copy the sub list you want to replace not the entire apl

past fable
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Ye idk i tried that but didnt get it to work properly a while ago

rugged solar
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like this

image.png
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(it needs the full apl in the profile)

past fable
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Ah so only the section i want to change

rugged solar
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yes

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^ the example, just your sim

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can see the input if you open "raw input"

image.png
past fable
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Yeye Surebud

rugged solar
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bomb dispenser is just used on cd with this?

past fable
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actions.cds+=/use_items

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YEP kekman

rugged solar
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haha

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i think most trinekts would work with a "On cd" use

past fable
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Idk if were using it every 16s i doubt theres much gain to sync it to something else

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But maybe

rugged solar
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i think there is potential with sniping

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not sure would need to test more

past fable
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Wdym by sniping

rugged solar
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basically adjust for add events, so you can get extra value

past fable
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But its not extra value though

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Or well, it does split aoe damage

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But its less than the singletarget value

rugged solar
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oh true

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the damage on death is lower

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then a ttd check

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to make sure you use it on targets that survive for 7+ secs

past fable
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Btw for the anvil pocket trinket, do you know how you would write an override so that gloomblade starts proccing it? Or would we need koji to edit something in the code for it?

rugged solar
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target.time_to_die>=7 or so

past fable
rugged solar
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it would need spell data or simc changs

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because its a whitelist i assume

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similar to lethality

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(blizz forgot to add strike to the whitelist)

past fable
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Nah it works ingame

rugged solar
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oh it is a simc issue

past fable
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When i try to sim it

rugged solar
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oh ye koji needs to add that manually then

past fable
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Ye i figured. Ive found where in the code its supposed to be changed but i cant seem to figure out how to do it with an override

rugged solar
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Just to document it, trinket lines (+1.3% for torch, slight improvements for others)

+ actions.cds+=/use_item,name=beacon_to_the_beyond,use_off_gcd=1,if=!stealthed.all&(buff.deeper_daggers.up|!talent.deeper_daggers)&(!raid_event.adds.up|!equipped.stormeaters_boon)
+ actions.cds+=/use_items,if=!stealthed.all|fight_remains<10
rugged solar
rugged solar
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something to check:
breakpoint secret->shadow dance beats shadow dance->secret
idea: bp damage is potentially higher than the initial hit of secret and could make a off gcd use relevant for non DM builds

rugged solar
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first approach seems to be fairly successful, opting up to 2.5% dps gain:

+ actions.cds+=/symbols_of_death,if=(buff.symbols_of_death.remains<=3&!cooldown.shadow_dance.ready|!set_bonus.tier30_2pc)&variable.rotten_condition&variable.snd_condition&(!talent.flagellation&(combo_points<=1|!talent.the_rotten)|cooldown.flagellation.remains>10|cooldown.flagellation.up&combo_points>=5)
lilac crescent
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Probably look into different thresholds of dance CD remaining where its worth it to press sod

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Since its likely we want 100% sod uptime during dance depending on build

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So either holding sod until pandemic from dance activation

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Or pressing it before dance so the dance activation refreshes sod in pandemic

past fable
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Nvm

lilac crescent
turbid pulsar
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6 sec sod should be bugs=0

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or you mean ingame

lilac crescent
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In game

turbid pulsar
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well thats more difficult xD

lilac crescent
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Yeah, I wonder if the sod thst dance applied uses pandemic from the 6s or just nabs it from regular 10s sod

rugged solar
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that is something we can't test rn

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sadly

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need to wait for a fix

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the sim also still assumes ns is fixes that iirc wasn't

turbid pulsar
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koji did say the spelldata with the fix

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is hitting live when na is up again

lilac crescent
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Would be nice to physically test how the pandemic works

rugged solar
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ah perfect

lilac crescent
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I hope it just works as if the sod applied by dance pandemics based on a casted sod and not the applied duration

mystic sequoia
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Yeah was pushed in last batch of hotfixes. At least changes to NS

rugged solar
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ah nice

rugged solar
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rotten

image.png
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its not even terrible

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2.5%

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but moment

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nvm seems fine

valid robin
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Is that optimized

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With new tier set

rugged solar
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yes

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did test some of the apl chanegs

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so should be "optimized"

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2.4% is closer than expected

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rotten seems fairly meh

rugged solar
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^ this incorparates the rotten changes to make it sim well

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also did optimize it for multi target a bit better

rugged solar
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btw. feel free to throw the apl in a sim and if you find something just lmk

valid robin
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Can you do a rotten sim on its own?

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So i can look at cp waste and apl

rugged solar
valid robin
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Thanks!

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Ye its wasting a ton of cps

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31% of all cps it produces goes to waste

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And energy wise its even worse, but i assume thats for all t30 sims

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In total, symbols alone is wasting 300 energy

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Rotten is giving 2.5 cps on avg

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Like i know this can be avoided ingame, so i am sure its possible in sim too

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But i dont think its better than the normal build anyway

rugged solar
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just to mention this

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the 0.1% adjustment we had is not in

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but everything else should be

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if we get it closer, thats fine with me

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for what its worth, i care mostly to have things working

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atm updating the sheet

past fable
valid robin
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I dont really care about % dps it provides. But i do know that you can get away with much lower cp waste when playing rotten. So its more a case of, we will never know how good it is

rugged solar
rugged solar
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so there is a correlation

valid robin
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Not if you have to use bad spells to avoid waste

rugged solar
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oh ye

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i mean, if you can reasonably avoid it

past fable
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And it even threw a little curveball at me with sepsis being only ~1% worse than tornado on dungeonslice, which i wasnt expecting at all

valid robin
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Like, you basically just have to use gloomblade on rotten, never strike

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And always at 0-1 cp

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Its quite simple to avoid really

valid robin
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With no dm its not super surprising imo

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Especially because of how st focused dslice is

rugged solar
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problem rly is how well the right side works together

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the left side would need some better integration in the spec

valid robin
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Yes, overall dps wise, its not great

rugged solar
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Thistle tea fix:

+ actions.cds+=/thistle_tea,if=(cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>=3|buff.symbols_of_death.up)&!buff.thistle_tea.up&(energy.deficit>=100&(combo_points.deficit>=2|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3)|cooldown.thistle_tea.charges_fractional>=2.75&buff.shadow_dance.up)|buff.shadow_dance.remains>=4&!buff.thistle_tea.up&spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3|!buff.thistle_tea.up&fight_remains<=(6*cooldown.thistle_tea.charges)
```https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/deVu1S56naLCLuNPApeqjf
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - Subtlety - 129,937 DPS - Raidbots
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@remote sparrow #subtlety is atm a bit busy, what exactly did you want to test with trinkets?

remote sparrow
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oh, just wanted to see where Sod waste is mostly coming from. I have a feeling its because of SF, we end dance almost at full energy, and it automatically sods' since the 2pc sod is done

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I was thinking maybe we could remove SF to see if energy waste goes down/how much ST dps we lose for it

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maybe it would end up being worth it to delay sod by 2 gb's after dance to not waste its energy not sure

rugged solar
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the problem with sf in talents is point economy

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so even if we can remove sf

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it seems less likely that we would given no alternative dps option

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at least on st

remote sparrow
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oh yeah definitely. theres nothing to take instead of it. just wanted to see its contribution to our energy waste/ st dps gain.
Maybe its worth it to delay sod by 1 gcd ? or maybe have a condition where it wont sod unless its at or below 120 energy?

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im expecting this to miss the first builder right after dance, and then sod immediately after

rugged solar
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i did test earlier in #subtlety to use symbols later

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it seems to be equal in best case and a damage loss in worse

remote sparrow
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ah unfortunate, thanks for trying!

rugged solar
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but if there is something else you want to check just lmk

remote sparrow
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will do thanks!

quiet thunder
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is there a strand somewhere where i can copy and paste to get the max ilvl sub items to sim?

rugged solar
quiet thunder
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❤️ tysm

quiet thunder
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jeez it freezes up my raidbots lol

rugged solar
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yes, you probably only want to use parts of it

remote sparrow
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not sure if Im making a mistake but this build seems to out sim the current build posted in sheet by a decent amount, using the same gear.

BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARAJJiQCIhkgkkEJkEKJJRLCJlIkkkkWAAAA

Is there any apl changes I need to make to optimize for playing around the 2pc?

rugged solar
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^ take this apl

mystic sequoia
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I can't replicate

rugged solar
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it is possible that he means for his gear level

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also make sure you use bugs=0

remote sparrow
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no I was using the same gear as stated in bis currently, sims about 1k higher, I think its an APL issue with symbols usage.

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thank you!

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although, using the same exact APL as live right now, that build is simming very very close to what you linked @mystic sequoia

rugged solar
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did you use bugs = 0

mystic sequoia
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I think I'm confused by what you're doing

remote sparrow
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no one second!

rugged solar
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also moment

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before you sim

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you can use this input

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shoulders got updated and are no longer bis

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i will update it in the sheet later, just currently a bit busy with other things

mystic sequoia
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Also in its current state, should probably use Tepid Versatility Phial as well

rugged solar
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default is tepid vers

mystic sequoia
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Ah, I thought the ones in sheet was still corrupted rage

remote sparrow
mystic sequoia
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Can you link the sim instead please?

remote sparrow
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uh sure one sec ill rerun it, but the other build shows me this

rugged solar
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because it fixes a lot of stuff

remote sparrow
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this is the first one

rugged solar
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esp. with rotten

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you can use it in top gear

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can just put the apl in custom apl

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and expert mode bugs=0

remote sparrow
mystic sequoia
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Just a note as well, but both of those use Glacial Fury flask

remote sparrow
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oh, one sec not sure how i missed it mb

mystic sequoia
# remote sparrow oh, one sec not sure how i missed it mb

The thing is, you're simming with bugs being implemented.
Currently SoD from 2p lasts 10 sec on ptr. It got nerfed to 6 sec and the tooltip got changed to 6 sec.
However, it is still 10 sec ingame. So it's implemented as a bug in SimC. So running regularly will give you a 10sec SoD.
Running with bugs=0 will give you a 6 sec SoD

remote sparrow
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thanks for taking the time to explain it to me, I really appreciate it! ❤️

mystic sequoia
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(That said, it's not a total waste in spending a little time making sure the apl for 10s sod bug also works decently. If they end up never fixing it)

remote sparrow
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oh also uh when I add 'bugs=0' after the talent string it throws an error for me

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i feel like I hsould probably go learn the syntax before I start lpaying around with it haha

mystic sequoia
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You can use it in expert options if it's easier for you

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Otherwise below the talent row should be fine

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bugs=0

remote sparrow
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Still throws an error 'invalid commands: bugs' Ill just try and go learn the syntax first haha

mystic sequoia
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Can you send your raw input?

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Ohhh

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You're doing it in quick sim?

remote sparrow
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I was, should i go to advanced?

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yeah its running now, thank you!

mystic sequoia
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Either that or use expert options ->

image.png
remote sparrow
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makes sense, and yep youre right, its quite a bit weaker with bugs=0

rugged solar
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oh

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you also need to remove source=default from the input string if you want to use it in top gear

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this is basically the setup to run things

image.png
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unless you want to test for the 10 sec symbols from tier

remote sparrow
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Thanks fuu! I really appreciate it, im learning quite a bit playing around with it now! 😄

remote sparrow
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a few things I noticed. with rotten build it does seem to apply snd inside dance.

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also it does cast secret technique on the 5th gcd of dance quite often (if the clones hit 1.3 seconds after first hit then they fall out of dance right?)

ivory kestrel
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i actually found it can get dicey with the initial snd from premed that it can finish before the first strike in dance

remote sparrow
ivory kestrel
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it is possible but that one is 40 secs in so no reason to

remote sparrow
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I think with the opener i had in mind u should be striking on 8th or 9th second so shouldnt run out of snd. then u get another one from vanish and the immediate dance after it

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but yeah 4 things ive noticed so far with rotten ->

  1. it should probably blades before sepsis
  2. it probably shouldnt use flag/sepsis inside dance
  3. on last gcd of dance it should probably symbols + gb/strike instead of striking, then gbing outside of dance then finishing then symbols gbing ( as it does now)
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  1. shouldnt snd inside dance
valid robin
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idk why it delays sec tech

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without DM you can just send it on first gcd

remote sparrow
#

oh yaeh 5) dont delay Sec tech until 5th gcd.

#

but that one i think it oculd be ebcause of CB

#

like someitmes CB is close enough that it waits for it (i think) and then it falls on 5th/6th gcd

valid robin
#

maybe it should hold dance for 1-2 seconds

#

a check for CB cd

ivory kestrel
#

yea actually using sec tech as second finisher should be fine

#

and a check for CB as you can double use it after the vanish

valid robin
#

thats probably not practical btw

#

yes its possible

#

but i think it was found to be a loss last time we checked

#

cus it involves sitting on cds

ivory kestrel
#

yea in the st build mayble but for dungeon you play tornado so you tornado after dance

remote sparrow
#

oh speaking of holding, 6th thing i noticed) it missed rotten uses. like it happened maybe 3-4 times in a 5 min sim where it would have symbols up in 2-4 seconds, but it would just vanish which resets sod , basically losing an entire rotten use

ivory kestrel
#

and get some finishers then enter dance fine after the 4 secs

#

ah true the vanish with SoD might need more limits

remote sparrow
#

this is an example of holding sectech for CB

ivory kestrel
#

i guess that is why subterfuge might be fine as you get those extra secs needed for the CB sec tech after consuming the sepsis pop strike

remote sparrow
#

idk strike is so useless idk if its worth playing around it

ivory kestrel
#

well it is strike + PV but until after we see how the dmg calcs turn out

#

you also want to stab once so you dont cap

remote sparrow
#

oh another thing is, uh, dance seems to be around 22sec cd instead of 25 with this build

rugged solar
#

^

+ actions.stealth_cds+=/variable,name=rotten_threshold,value=!buff.the_rotten.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>1|combo_points<=2&buff.the_rotten.up&!set_bonus.tier30_2pc```
is a good change with 0.2% dps gain
rugged solar
#

but they seem fairly small, ned to be looked further

#

hmm

rugged solar
rugged solar
low breach
#

The apl can be used in hero rotation or?

rugged solar
#

no

#

hero rotation is a port of the apl to an addon

#

you can't directly put it in

low breach
#

Ok 👌

rugged solar
#

i just wanted to put the latest changes here

#

so everyone who wants to modify the apl has a easy time to find a baseline

remote sparrow
#

where the values are when (seconds or minutes.seconds) when you would use them

rugged solar
#

the change is only fixing one of the issues

#

i haven't had time to go over everything

#

i did update the top of the sim chart in the sheet and some of the other sims to have the correct embellishment shown

#

not everything, because of time reasons

#

need to also go over what you wrote

remote sparrow
#

ofcourse! by the way not sure if it means anything, but the current apl plays the first minute of the rotten build almost perfectly (outside of not lining up sepsis + blades)

#

and if u do a 1 min sim

#

its about 5.5% ahead

#

but then at 1 min, 2 min it starts breaking down and not lining up

#

and doing all the weird stuff

valid robin
#

Could also be cus its more bursty

remote sparrow
#

yes and no though, like its bursty on the open, but it should get its entire burst (since its already not lining up sepsis + blades) back

#

at 1 minute mark

#

this is for 1 min mark, blades would add 50% sepsis damage meaning its a 2.5% dps increase compared to currently this

rugged solar
#

@turbid pulsar tested it, just double checking it

#

also sorry for the rotten beleavers

#

this kills it off a bit more

#

apl change: ```diff

  • actions.finish+=/rupture,if=!set_bonus.tier30_2pc&!variable.skip_rupture&buff.finality_rupture.up&cooldown.shadow_dance.remains<12&cooldown.shadow_dance.charges_fractional<=1&spell_targets.shuriken_storm=1&(talent.dark_brew|talent.danse_macabre)
#

new profile with apl
For apl changes, you can use this profile/apl as baseline

📎 message.txt
valid robin
#

So this means its just refresh in pandemic

#

Do you have any line for not refreshing pandemic if dance is soon off cd and you have finality rupture active?

ivory kestrel
#

well makes sense as we get free rupture uptime

#

on finality ruptures anyway

#

but i think there will be fringe cases where rupture is at 3-7 secs entering dance and it is a finality one

#

and we can send dance instead of refreshing

lilac crescent
rugged solar
ivory kestrel
#

kieron great minds thinking alike

valid robin
#

Ye as long as its on 2 sec left

#

Its fine

ivory kestrel
#

yep

valid robin
#

Or 3 for safety

turbid pulsar
#

also puts another build within like 100 dps of the inev build

ivory kestrel
#

i think 2 might break some things

lilac crescent
#

I suspect it'll be 8-10s

#

To maintain uptime

ivory kestrel
#

well the idea kinda is riding the finality rupture inside dance

#

not much more

lilac crescent
#

But not having rupture for 2s probably not even that bad

ivory kestrel
#

so 2-7 works fine but of course until 8.4 it also works

turbid pulsar
#

season 1 build with the change

image.png
#

6sec dance + PE

image.png
ivory kestrel
#

ye 2 secs or 3 vs using an evis and getting extra finality rupture in dance

#

checks out

valid robin
#

Thats 1400

#

Or did you mean something else

remote sparrow
#

he meant the 6 sec + PE

#

so pe + sht + tfd

valid robin
#

Ah

remote sparrow
#

instead of pe + swift +inev

turbid pulsar
#

yeah bottom one

#

to the inev build

rugged solar
#

initial test

image.png
#

seems not worth it, but maybe something more specific

ivory kestrel
#

yea i think it may need the range like we though

#

if it lets it drop too much it can get twisted

#

the idea is to get 1 extra evis maybe and finality value inside dance

#

not skip the refresh

#

might need to limit test with entering dance with 3 secs left to like 6-8

valid robin
#

They have the same uptime

#

So its prob not relevant then

#

Think we tried to do something with rupture in the past and its just never good

#

Its possible that ur just delaying the inevitable by not refreshing early

#

It will also mean you refresh into finality earlier, so ye

#

The finality uptime diff is prob non-existent

past fable
#

You probably end up with 0cp after dance and no rupture up quite frequently if you send dance when rupture has <4 seconds left (or 2s if you have 6s dance i guess)

turbid pulsar
#

with this finality rupture is pretty much just useless i think in my sim's sequence it consumes it once

valid robin
#

Nah the uptime wasnt different

#

So its not about that, prob something else janky tho

turbid pulsar
#

its kinda funny

image.png
valid robin
#

So its just ignoring it?

#

Weird

turbid pulsar
#

well yeah, if its not in pandemic

#

it wont refresh

#

and since finality is only 30 sec

#

thats basically all the time xD

rugged solar
#

good news is, it seems to not impact the top build

#

let me quick look tho

valid robin
#

What a dumb mechanic

rugged solar
#

maybe it is worth to refresh rupture if finality is about to run out

turbid pulsar
#

nah just makes it so there is another build within 110 dps basically

#

which is nice

rugged solar
#

alright, did update assa shortly (top sims)

turbid pulsar
#

no inev for me, no thank you

rugged solar
#

assa down to 128k

#

hope embellishment change will hep it get back

valid robin
#

I know whispyr has his own assa sim

rugged solar
#

back to sub, lets quick check finality

valid robin
#

At 130k+

rugged solar
#

but thats before shoulder changes

#

i was on 131k

#

but overall, just means a lot of stuff to re-run

#

i expect boots to become good like for sub

#

should be back to 130k possibly

turbid pulsar
#

wdym back to for sub?

#

we already there

rugged solar
#

i went off topic

#

sry

#

oh god

image.png
#

XD

#

what have i done

valid robin
#

something forbidden

#

at least

rugged solar
#

def. wrong apl changes

#

seems like casting additional ruptures is bad tho

#

i think that could be due to 4p

#

less evi casts = less chance of crit evis = less damage

#

also less chances of finality empowered evis to crit

valid robin
#

i mean -1.8% is more dps than the 4p is worth

rugged solar
#

it triggers

image.png
valid robin
#

so i somehow doubt its a big part of the loss

rugged solar
#

quite a lot

valid robin
#

well you should just delete that line

#

was proven to be bad

#

right

#

just do normal pandemic gameplay

rugged solar
#

oh ye

#

it was just a test

#

maybe a rupture remains check make sense

#

let me test

#

still bad

#

alright, time to update sub profiles

rugged solar
rugged solar
valid robin
#

that looks more reasonable

#

0.5% dps loss makes sense

rugged solar
#

it would only refresh if 10 sec or less remains

#

of rupture

#

thats the number

rugged solar
#

^ i will pin the latest profile/apl now to allow everyone to quick find it

rugged solar
#

i would like to test sth

#

@mental dirgei think i found a fix to the torch issue

image.png
mental dirge
#

Oh great

rugged solar
#

the same issue probably exists for beacon

remote sparrow
#

what is the 'issue''? is it being casted on gcd, or cancelling it?

rugged solar
#

it basically locks

#

trinket optimization:

+ actions.cds+=/use_item,name=manic_grieftorch,use_off_gcd=1,if=!stealthed.all&(!raid_event.adds.up|!equipped.stormeaters_boon|trinket.stormeaters_boon.cooldown.remains>20)
+ actions.cds+=/use_item,name=beacon_to_the_beyond,use_off_gcd=1,if=!stealthed.all&buff.deeper_daggers.up&(!raid_event.adds.up|!equipped.stormeaters_boon|trinket.stormeaters_boon.cooldown.remains>20)```
#

easy fix

remote sparrow
rugged solar
#

basically not using torch

remote sparrow
#

ah okay thanks

rugged solar
#

but the above fixes it

mental dirge
#

Great, thanks.. will use it tomorrow when im free

rugged solar
#

will need to look into the rotten things tomorrow

#

if there is something left to test

quiet thunder
#

so we will prob have to make crafted daggers/find other ones now that blizz changed the stats to crit/mast on the last raid boss dagger

lilac crescent
quiet thunder
#

wasnt a question

lilac crescent
#

okay, this isn't a theorycrafting statement #subtlety

remote sparrow
#

alright the spsis/flag/rotten nightmare is back alive. I still think i have the first 6 optimizatoin thingies up there, but 7th one is most likely stiletto over VT or DD.

lilac crescent
#

we need to look into SoD usage a lot better after the latest annoyingly bad interaction was found

#

but idk when that's going to be fixed or implemented to simc

remote sparrow
#

the interaction is that tier replaces SoD with a lower duration one right? with like 2-3 seconds of pandemic?

lilac crescent
#

if you SoD before dance, and you dance with anywhere above 1.8s on SoD remaining, the duration that goes above 7.8s gets eaten because it uses a 6s timer as duration

#

so dance on 5s SoD remaining would eat 3.2s of SoD

remote sparrow
#

I see, it makes sense though. I think it is just replacing sod with a 6 second sod

#

then it ads pandemic to it

#

so if u have 1.8 seconds of sot. it ads 6 + 1.8 and gives u a 7.8 second sod

lilac crescent
#

yes

#

if you dance with 8s of SoD remaining you gain 0s of SoD

mental dirge
#

very poor implementation

#

will be extraordinarily irritating to play with lol

remote sparrow
#

yeah makes sense, 6 second base + pandemic

mental dirge
#

the pandemic function was already dogshit

#

they are the same buff they should just simply extend each other

#

makes 0 sense

remote sparrow
#

it works similar to all of our other over time effects though. like rupture gets fully replaced + pandemic

#

so its the same idea

#

but yeah they shoulda put thought into how this isnt the same as rupture

mental dirge
#

buff vs dot

#

t28 shadow blades tier added duration

#

from casts and procs

#

that is how this should function

remote sparrow
# mental dirge buff vs dot

its interesting u say that, because if u try to rewrite SnD with a weaker SnD it wont let you. but somehow this one just lets u

mental dirge
#

idk intern tier implementation

#

plz just make it add duration

#

playing around this garbage implement is epitome of anti-fun

remote sparrow
#

hey @rugged solar not sure if you guys have seen this build but right now its about 2.2-2.3% behind the current bis but a simple optimization of using blades before sepsis would probably put it within 0.8%. maybe further optimizations with flag and sepsis windows around dance could help it catch up

#

BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARAJJiIJBJhkQSSSSCEIJRLCJlIkkkkWAAAA

rugged solar
#

sounds great

#

^ this might work

#

blades sync could be good too

remote sparrow
#

Maybe dancing 4 seconds after sepsis so the final hit gets dark shadow amp could also be useful.

#

with tfd over swift its within 2% it seems

rugged solar
#

it does sync blades already to sepsis

#

how would you change blades use?

#

hmm

remote sparrow
#

I thought blades has to be cast before sepsis for sepsis to get its benefit right?

#

like right now it sepsis's before blades

rugged solar
#

no its dynamic

remote sparrow
#

ah

rugged solar
#

if blades is up, it gets the benefits

#

i also see this

image.png
remote sparrow
#

okay then no its actually 2% behind then, sorry didnt know that blades interaction

rugged solar
#

sepsis fix creating a loss

golden bay
#

stepsis OMEGAKEKW

rugged solar
#

it is why i initially did not put it in

#

because it seemed not consistent

#

mhm

golden bay
#

the implementation for shadow dmg talents not amping trinkets etc are not in simc yet right?

remote sparrow
#

pretty sure this build would take over the normal build if there was a connection from sepsis to dust 😦

#

but we got pv instead... 2 points of it

rugged solar
#

given that its spell data that should be automatically parsed

#

in nightly

#

but also need to see when nightly rebuild

golden bay
#

maybe some other trinkets are bis and that would affect our builds a bit

rugged solar
#

mimiron seems to have it

#

because let me show you

golden bay
#

dark brew will sim worse for sure

remote sparrow
#

I dont thnk its in

rugged solar
#

this is on raidbots

image.png
remote sparrow
rugged solar
#

this was run on mimiron.raidbots

#

is 2k lower

#

mimiron does rebuild every change, so it is usually more up to date

#

but also not recommended to use usually

remote sparrow
#

can u test the previous rotten iteration we had

rugged solar
#

because this can lead to a lot of janky sims

remote sparrow
#

should be closer now

#

since it had stronger baseline and less amps

rugged solar
#

moment

#

128k

#

vs. 132k

#

meh

#

still quite a bit behind

remote sparrow
#

it looks like it got further behind

#

about 3%

#

huh weird

rugged solar
#

moment

#

with bugs=0

#

very similr to the sheet sim

remote sparrow
#

oh right because rotte was 2.5% behind before the finality thingy which was about 1%.

golden bay
#

does the sim currently sync sepsis / flag / SB if you have stilleto talented?

remote sparrow
#

it seems to

golden bay
#

BUQAAWulQAmRd/c4Iy2r7VOUFAAAAAAAAAAARAJJigEkESCJJJJJQKKSS0iQSJJkkEpFAAAA
also seems to be within 2.5% of bis build on current raidbots

rugged solar
valid robin
#

I don’t think the current/newest raidbots build has the whitelisting implemented

#

Afaik, it wasnt hotfixed for sub yet. So the numbers will change quite drastically

turbid pulsar
#

yeah was gonna say, i just did some ring sims 4fun and it shows me the same gap as before

golden bay
#

also might want to reconsider trinket / ring choices

rugged solar
#

hmm

valid robin
#

Ye

#

Right side talents should be quite a lot weaker with that change

#

Beacon trinket alone is like

#

1-2%?

turbid pulsar
#

uhh

#

beacon was what?

valid robin
#

9%

turbid pulsar
#

10% of our dmg?

golden bay
#

9.3%

turbid pulsar
#

then 31% amp dmg gone

rugged solar
#

moment let me check something

turbid pulsar
#

or w/e we gave it

mystic sequoia
golden bay
#

5% veiltouched
16% DD
10% DB
i don't know if anything else affects it

#

maybe nightstalker but at this point we'll never know KEKW

rugged solar
#

oh

#

latest

#

latest on mimiron

#

anshlun's dps:
latest: 11775
old sim: 12054

#

hmm seems to low of a diffrence

valid robin
#

300 is nothing

remote sparrow
#

it should be around 8.8k after nerfs

#

it's not in yet imo

valid robin
#

The trinket is prob dead for us

#

With that change

remote sparrow
#

oh no I hard doubt it

#

all the other trinkets are actually garbage

#

its still going to be 6% dps for us

valid robin
#

It wasnt 3.5k dps ahead the 2nd choice

remote sparrow
#

like Realz said 'maybe consider a stat stick' and I simmed all the trinkets and the closet one was like 6% behind

#

post nerfs still like 3% behind

turbid pulsar
#

it would lose like 2.8% dmg

#

the trinket

#

overall

#

in the sim

remote sparrow
#

still by far our strongest

turbid pulsar
#

like in dmg contribution

#

so go down to like 6.5% of our dmg

remote sparrow
#

they buffed the first boss rare trinket, but that thing is almost 6% behind pre nerf anshul.

#

even after 12% crit buff and anshul nerf its gonna be bad i thnk

rugged solar
#

rough estimate would be 2%

#

napkin math

#

overall

remote sparrow
#

im guessing around 3% for anshul + 1.5% for ring (if ring is also included) so about 4,5%

#

realz mentioned its supposed to be 5,1% nerf though so idk

rugged solar
#

overall

remote sparrow
#

as in nerfs + buffs?

#

combined?

rugged solar
#

non shadow damage:
~ 15% of our damage -> -1% dps
~16% of our damage is shadow -> -4%

#

aura buffs are 4%, but tats not 4% gain, so overall likely is a nerf

valid robin
#

Well you have to swap trinkets and effects

rugged solar
#

the above is just from tiems/enchants

#

ill make a breakdown in a sec moment

remote sparrow
#

I think the nerfs are 4.5-5%, tier is around 1% buff, lethality 0.6% buff, 2.5% overall buff from the aura so we gained about 4.1% and lost 4.5-5

rugged solar
#

tier buff?

remote sparrow
#

40% from 25

valid robin
#

Its 40% crit dam now

rugged solar
#

oh

turbid pulsar
#

4set was buffed yeh

rugged solar
#

i missed that

valid robin
#

With this

#

Change

#

Or the shadow embel

remote sparrow
#

you still need 1 for ring no?

valid robin
#

Idk, maybe

remote sparrow
#

oh and i did some sims and the ring is withing 0.5% of a crafted 447 crit mastery

valid robin
#

Or just yeet it

remote sparrow
#

eggnog ring that is.

#

maybe a 447 + double sophic > eggnog + shadowflame + sophic idk

turbid pulsar
#

outlaw at 131.5k sim

rugged solar
#

yes possible

remote sparrow
#

dont they lose a lot too from bte?

#

I doubt thats in yet

rugged solar
#

that we just drop shadowflame stuff all together

turbid pulsar
#

bte is just a crit % increase

#

they lose GS interaction

#

if blizz fixes it correct

remote sparrow
#

I thought it was otherwise

rugged solar
#

it is likely that PE remains

#

i could see PE staying global

remote sparrow
#

that gs was a debuff on target and bte was a buff on u

turbid pulsar
#

yeah its just sheet crit

#

bte is a debuff as well

#

so they might lose that too i guess xD

remote sparrow
#

that might kill outlaw actually LOL

valid robin
#

It wont happen

remote sparrow
#

theyre double abusing anshul btw

#

with gs + bte and their 2 pc

#

since anshul counts as pet, the damage is included in their 2pc

valid robin
#

But GS is double dipping with the 2p atm

golden bay
turbid pulsar
#

their 2p does not work

#

with the trinket

golden bay
#

so that's 2.1% or around that

remote sparrow
#

it did until a few days ago though. unless they fixed it

golden bay
#

he did mention that for the "bis" build it's overall a 1.1% nerf

#

so they probably had it mathed out

mystic sequoia
#

It does still work with beacon

#

2p outlaw

golden bay
#

totally possible they also have a build in mind with different item combinations that would sim better

remote sparrow
#

thought so, thanks!

golden bay
#

because he heavily implied we should be using stack stick trinkets

rugged solar
#

i think target modifiers

#

will remain

#

so gs

#

and fw

#

are likely to not change

turbid pulsar
rugged solar
#

but stuff like veiltouch, deeper dagger and dark brew are very likely fixed

remote sparrow
mystic sequoia
#

Shadowflame enchant also procs it, not f.ex frozen though

mystic sequoia
rugged solar
#

ye i see

#

somehow wasn't in "latest"

#

i did manually overwrite

remote sparrow
#

is there an APL to test prio damage for funnel? im wondering how much power 4 pc gets in funnel vs normal situations.

past fable
#

priority_rotation=1

remote sparrow
#

so set target count to like 7 and add priority_rotation=1?

past fable
#

It hasnt seen revision for a while so some things might be off, but should atleast be decent

remote sparrow
#

thank you

#

this cant be right... prio target is significantly lower than single target rotation??

past fable
#

But its also probably scuffed a bit since its that much lower

remote sparrow
#

but how did it get worse... last tier, atleat it was a slight dps gain

past fable
#

It was not

#

It was like 90k prio

#

and 95k non-prio

remote sparrow
#

oh, i meant with dungeon setup it was a slight gain

#

but yeah

#

wow

past fable
#

In m+ build it was like a 8% gain ye

#

But if you made it shorter so you didnt run out of tea

remote sparrow
#

even with dungeon setup its still a dps loss here

past fable
#

It was roughly equal

remote sparrow
#

an idea for optimization around Finality again. Sounds giga cursed but bear with me.
with the current sims, Rupture is around 8% of our damage and non of it is finality, so if we can replace all of it with finality, it should be a roughly 2.7% dps increase.

Rupture with pandemic lasts around 50 seconds thanks to 2pc.

#

so we let finality rupture completly fall off, and right as its about to fall off (3-0 seconds left) we gb once, rupture, then build for another finality rupture at 6-7 cp.
this way in a 5 minute sim, with each rupture lasting about 50 seconds, need around 300/50 = 6 ruptures. normally we would have all the build -> rupture. but this essentially ads 2 more gcd for each rupture.

so we have essentially around 12 'dead' gcds just to build for rupture. assuming we would have used these gcd's on gb (most likely we would). and each gb giving us 2cp on average. we are wasting 24 cps, which is about 4 Evis. 5 minute sim does about 67 evis for 17% of our damage so 4 Evis should be around 4/67 * 17 = 1% damage loss but we gain about 2.7% so should be a 1.7% in total, combined with some weird energy stuff, still should be a bit over 1% gain over current no finality

#

pls let me know if im cooking meth here

mental dirge
#

Probably worth trying

remote sparrow
#

I would test it on a dummy myself but I burnt my computers GPU and motherboard a few days ago so now im waiting for repairs LOL Surebud

still storm
#

either way, casting 2 ruptures in a row to ensure finality always is about dps neutral compared to just casting an evis outside of shadow dance, but you ensure you have a finality rupture for shadow dance windows always

remote sparrow
#

Idk, I did some math up there idk if it makes sense.

still storm
#

i just took the difference between finality rupture and regular rupture damage (for me, 96.3 - 74.1 = 22.2k) compared to an evis (25.5k)

remote sparrow
#

Oh yeah no a single finality rupture has 12 seconds of dance on it. So it's quite a bit more considering at 5 stacks of dm it's ticking for 60% higher than normal

#

But the evis would always be outside of dance with no amps on it

still storm
#

yeah

remote sparrow
#

Idk maybe fuu can test something like this later, or I'll test it later when I get my computer back

still storm
#

but i mean even without counting the dance amp, its about dps neutral

#

so id agree with your statement above

remote sparrow
#

Yeah but youre losing 2 gcds so about 4 combo points and 1 GB damage per set of ruptures

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So it's gonna be close

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But I think it's still 1% higher at the least

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We'll see

still storm
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makes sense

rugged solar
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prio iirc always wins against the baseline

remote sparrow
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I used the same talents in your bis build i think. just changed desired_targets to 7

rugged solar
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moment

remote sparrow
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and added priority_rotation=1

rugged solar
remote sparrow
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your prio is 118k then yeah you ose 13k dps

rugged solar
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moment, ill run it with %

remote sparrow
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subtelty is not running bp right?

rugged solar
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oh, you mean the prio damage is lower than pure st

remote sparrow
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yes, so its a dps loss to funnel vs do noraml st rotation

rugged solar
#

ye

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that depends on target count

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but possible

remote sparrow
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i got 118k at 7 targets

rugged solar
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you lose 20% aoe for 26% st

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so it is still worth it to funnel if you want damage on one specific target

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it is also sometimes more than pure st, at least was last seaosn

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possible that there are optimizations tho

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esp. with new tier

remote sparrow
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I was expecting new tier to boost our funnel damage

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was a bit let down

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btw, if you have time, can you check my proposal for rupture tuning and lmk if im just cooking some nonsense or it may work?

rugged solar
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think

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it might be inev

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because you lose uptime

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when funneling

remote sparrow
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hmm, but you have more dance uptime, which automatically gives u more sod uptime

rugged solar
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sry cat

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possible, maybe it desyncs

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so would generate overlaps

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that lad to bad uptime

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70% uptime

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due to sim

remote sparrow
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I could definately see that, also since flag sims within 1% of db after the nerfs to amps, maybe we gain some funnel value with flag? not sure

rugged solar
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possible

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flag is always a bit of a two edged sword

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basically BP makes you do damage always

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while flag does lower your baseline while giving you an aditional cd

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but the uptime requiremets do mean you need to have a good pull to utialize it well

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flag as funny as it is does not sim better in any sim one specifically, with the exception of dungeon slice

remote sparrow
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thats true, Im also convinced flag is a sim bait

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atleast in Dslice

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Ive always done significantly worse with it over db

rugged solar
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i don't think its bait

remote sparrow
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anywyas, food for thought. could be interesting in certain scenarios. for example a 3 min burn on echo of Nelth p3

rugged solar
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i just think that it is more a niche talent choice

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if you can plan well around the use

remote sparrow
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mhm definately! ill run some sims for it maybe tmrw.

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btw pls let me know what u think of the rupture thingy, i think my math makes sense but i might be missing something

rugged solar
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so if we can replace all of it with finality, it should be a roughly 2.7% dps increase.

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you lose globals, energy and cp casting rupture

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so it isn't "we gain 2.7% dps for free"

remote sparrow
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i did the math tho, u lose 24 cp roughly over 5 minutes, which is about 4 evis

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which is about 1% damage

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and u basically lose 6 gb's, so another 120k damage over 5 minutes, specially since rupture kind of runs out near the third dance with low lingering stacks

rugged solar
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do the evi casts account for finality

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and the 4p crit bonus

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crit rates

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etc.?

remote sparrow
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i basically averaged out the sim crit damage. sim did 67 crits over 5 mintues, which did 17% of our damage

rugged solar
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well reguardless, how would you use rupture to get th 2.7%

remote sparrow
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so i averaged it out to 4/67 * 17 ~ 1%

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in reality itll be less cuz those crits are amped by dance sometimes

remote sparrow
# rugged solar well reguardless, how would you use rupture to get th 2.7%

basically u let previous rupture run out, normally you would build for anotehr rupture, and send it in during pandemic. but now, when ruptures running out (around 2-3 seconds) u gb once, send a rupture, then build another rupture and send it, this guarantees pandemic too, and gives u finality rupture for about 50 seconds with 2 dances.

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so u litearlly just lose 2 gcds. so 4 combo points + a single gb cast but instead get 30% rupture damage for 50 seconds .

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and u do this once every 50 seconds, so over 5 minutes u do this 6 times ( less since opener u dont need to do this weird thingy with gb

rugged solar
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so basically the old "just rupture 2 times back to back"

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finality is not cp dependent btw.

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so you can low cp rupture too

remote sparrow
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what do u mean?

rugged solar
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e.g. use rupture on 1 or 2 cp

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to get finality

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then build to 5-6

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rupture

remote sparrow
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oh yes, thats why u only gb once.

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u get on average a 2 cp rupture

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and u still get about 2-3 seconds of pandemic from previous window, giving u enough time to build a new big finality rupture and send it

rugged solar