classic-discussion

[burnt elk]

https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=209436/chipped-bite-of-serrakis

[twilit forge]

The reason is your build from what i see Ghamoo-ra for example you were using eviserate and slice and dice wherereas you should have been going the poison route

Largely because of the high amount of defence it has

[odd copper]

Now that I think about it I think I barely used my eviserate cause I was just focusing on upkeep of my snd

[twilit forge]

Yea while its fine for leveling while your getting the full effect from your poisons i think that generally having envenom and deadly poisons will be more benificial

also because defence doesnt lower the damage output from all your DOTs

[odd copper]

I had deadly brew equipped so the deadly poison should’ve been applied I just wasn’t getting the envenom damage or the instant poison damage

I acc spent the whole raid just only spending points on slice and dice I think tho

[twilit forge]

Yea that isnt very good

for first boss you want to be using backstab with snd and for almost every other boss your wanting to be using deadly brew and envenom

[stark loom]

are we sure that gusting wind is better then the WSG off-hand?

I noticed that it never procs at all, the speed seems decent for poison procs though I guess.

[opaque vortex]

so

you can have ogre strength + agi pot active at the same time

does anyone know if you can also lion strength on top of that

allegedly you can stack the str pots but i haven't tested if lion strength overlaps agi

[proven fjord]

do rogue spec into lethality over ruthlessness or is it the other way around

[spice drum]

I feel like I would much rather have +1AP than 0.034% crit and 0.068% dodge

[spice drum]

Ruthlessness

[spice drum]

I think you might have had another chest rune applied or had some other intereaction that cancelled out Deadly Brew. 0 Proc's on 107 melee hits is so unlikely it's practically impossible
Edit: (this is from Aku'mai fight)

Just checked, you had Slaughter from the Shadows on, not Deadly Brew

It also looks like you only cast 2 eviscerates. On Aku'mai I'm able to weave S&D and Envenom/Eviscerate so that I swap between the two every time I spend CP

I had 4 casts of Envenom on a shorter Aku'mai pull and I had near-constant S&D uptime

[odd copper]

I am so fucking stupid

Ty vv much

[devout patio]

Is Mutilate or Saber Slash better for leveling?

[opaque vortex]

Saber slash

[austere crystal]

any links to sod rogue guides?

[light garden]

anyone know if shadowstrike can be setup to pickpocket via macro if used? or not possible

[coral portal]

if you're close enough for pickpocket it shoudl work, but otherwise the pickpocket command fires before shadowstrike does

so you'll likely just get an out of range error

[spice drum]

Saber Slash. You'd have to have a really good and slow offhand dagger paired with a strong mainhand dagger for mutilate to be the move

[spice drum]

https://www.wowhead.com/classic/guide/season-of-discovery/classes/rogue/dps-overview

[spice drum]

Are you asking if you can macro it so when you shadowstrike a target, it pickpockets them after the teleport but before the damage? If so, then no, you can't.

If you're asking if you can macro it so when you shadowstrike a target, you first pickpocket them if they're in range, then yes you can. You can do it with any stealth ability, here's the one I use for Ambush:

#showtooltip
/cast Pick Pocket
/cast Ambush

[sullen wasp]

Anyone know if it is possible to Glove swap in a macro to swap from shadowstrike to mutilate?

Even if in combat

[light garden]

sup i tried didnt seem to work will try again

[burnt elk]

anyone?

[jagged ether]

Did Blizz fix 2 rogues in a raid being able to have 2 stacks of Deadly yet?

[wraith parcel]

Yes

[opaque vortex]

Yes like a week ago

[jagged ether]

sweet

[spice drum]

It doesn't work every time because of an inconsistent delay on looting but it does work sometimes. Your other best bet would be a castsequence macro like:

#showtooltip
/castsequence Pick Pocket, Ambush

[spice drum]

No, you can't change runes or armour in combat

Boot Knife is better

The faster speed is pretty noticeable for keeping deadly poison at max uptime

[spice drum]

Yep, each rogue can have their own stacks of Saber Slash and Deadly Poison. And for that reason I would 100% setting up a weakaura to track your own applications of each. Before I set one up, I was constantly dropping dps because I thought another rogue's stacks were my stacks

[silent star]

Is it a DPS gain to stack 3x Saber Slash Bleed, then use standard Sinister Strike while refressing the bleed every 12 seconds? This is to take advantage of the Sinsiter Strike + dmg that I dont believe Saber Slash provides

[spice drum]

Yes it is

Saber Slash does 100% weapon damage, Sinister Strike does 100% plus some. So if you can weave sinister strikes in without losing any bleed uptime, you gain damage

[silent star]

thought so, thanks. Tool Tip is confusing where is says "Replaces"

[sturdy vine]

@sullen wasp no they nerfed it and added a 30 sec cd

[pliant panther]

Can you dual wield bfd daggers or they are unique?

[teal kiln]

Anyone know how to fix my logs being registered as dps when I am tank?

[lost stratus]

@pliant panther pretty sure u can

[dark kite]

I have bullets equipped for my gun next to it but i cant use any of the ranged spells

because it says i have no bullets equipped, is it normal ?

[gilded saddle]

make sure oyu have the right bullets equipped

[wind holly]

Not unique! So yes

[spice drum]

Idk what you mean by "bfd daggers" but yeah you could dual wield for example Chipped Bite of Serra'kis and Vampiric Boot Knife

[restive lagoon]

Got talwar and vamp last week, just got serrikas today. Should I use vamp or serrikas in OH?

[spice drum]

vamp

[compact gull]

how is Legionnaire's Sword / Protector's Sword stacking against Honed Darkwater Talwar, Is it huge difference?

[hardy kindle]

Rate my gif 1 to 10 !?

[coral portal]

355/10

[spice drum]

Would be 10/10 but its strange having their percentage hp twice on the nameplate, one with % and one without

[versed stream]

any1 else try combat for the 5% hit vs assa? Tried both but tbh, still not exactly sure which is better, since with combat its a lot more difficult to fit in envenoms while maintaining SnD.

[spice drum]

The problem is there are just better talents to get, especially since to reach Precision you need to waste 3 talents on either longer gouge or more dodge.

[livid sequoia]

What's the consensus on cross dagger vs. vampiric bootknife for offhand?

the extra dps better than +stats/ap on the cross dagger?

[warm jacinth]

is there any reason to use improved sinister strike talent if you are saber slash build?

[hardy kindle]

I raid as backstab spec with saber runes just fine.. content is ez anyway

[hardy kindle]

Read saber tooltip

[warm jacinth]

ty

[spice drum]

Pretty sure boot knife is bis OH for saber slash build

[livid sequoia]

Yeah it is indeed. I discovered this holy grail of wow classic rogue stats spreadsheet: https://shadowpanther.net/weapons-sod.htm

[prime berry]

Thoughts on dagger build vs saber?

i havent tried it out yet bc i cant get another dagger to drop

[unkempt current]

do you guys still apply poisons to weapons with deadly brew? or just let the passive effect from it rip

[spice drum]

There is no reason to apply instant poison, its just a waste

[spice drum]

Saber is better. Saber > Backstab >> Mutilate

Saber Slash is so good that even if you're running a Backstab build you still want to take it as a rune

[unkempt current]

thanks adam

[tough tapir]

Can someone unpack this for me? I have ritual blade so bis would be that in offhand and talwar mh for saber slash build? And why? Just the faster poison application compared to bite of serakiss?

Also how much better is vamp dagger than ritual blade in practice? Just the proc?

[spice drum]

Vamp dagger is ahead by an unbelievably small amount. The difference literally just comes down to tiny increase in dps of Vamp outpacing the tiny increase in speed of Ritual

Unless the +20hp of Ritual is meaningful to you

[tough tapir]

And the reason it is better than bite of sera'kiss (despite dps difference) is poison application rate?

[spice drum]

Yes, Chipped Bite of Serra'kis is slow enough that the extra dps doesn't compensate for the less frequent application of poisons

[tough tapir]

Ok just making sure I was following, so from the sounds of it not worth me taking the vamp dagger unless its literally being de'd since it and ritual are v close

ty for confirming the above

[spice drum]

Yeah they're super close but Vamp is still a dps increase

[tough tapir]

mm k

[spice drum]

Marginally so, but still. I'm a big fan of people always prioritizing on getting every bis piece they can. It's a huge FeelsGoodMan when you have a slot that you know is the best it could possibly be

Although if I had a fury warrior or someone who really wanted it and I had Ritual, I'd probably agree with you and pass on it

[tough tapir]

yeah my guild does need/greed +1 so would be prioritising over other drops

although its off end boss so probably wouldnt impact that

[heady imp]

has anyone actually run some sims on all of this rotation stuff? cus the top parses really arent backing up any of u guys' statements regarding ability priorities or maybe theres just still room for some serious improvements on the top parses and they are just getting the lucky crits in 😅

[hardy kindle]

Top parses has slicendice with envenom filler

[heady imp]

ghamoora doesnt eventhough theres time for a full snd when the shield is down and where are all the ruptures? pretty safe to say mangle is on the boss almost 100% of the boss fights, yet they barely use it and instead just spends the combo points on envenom

[hardy kindle]

Look at kelris

[heady imp]

yeah kelris is a perfect example for what im saying xD

[hardy kindle]

Oh are talking about slice?

[heady imp]

he doesnt use rupture and only has snd up half of the fight

which is what everyone is saying to do

[hardy kindle]

Who?

[heady imp]

u can see countless of times in here that ppl say to use rupture if mangle is on the boss and priority is to have snd on if the whole duration will be used

[hardy kindle]

You use rupture if your deadly stacks have fallen off

If they are 5stacks use envenom

Prio is always slice, try to gauge your last slice refresh accordingly to your kill timei

[heady imp]

yeah that the logic thing to do in my opinion too

but thats not what the logs are showing

he doesnt on the kelris log u just talked about and he doesnt even use snd on ghamoora at all

[hardy kindle]

Idk who you looking at

https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/guild/rankings/714992/latest#class=Rogue&spec=Assassination

Look at their top rogues

[heady imp]

this is the top 1 rogue kelris log

he doesnt have snd up half of the fight

[hardy kindle]

Name plz

[heady imp]

"spit" on living flame EU

he does have a crazy amount of luck with crits tho i see

[hardy kindle]

Idk man look elsewhere theres tons of top parsers doing it like I say

Maybe he had 5pts of an add prior to start on turtle boss

[heady imp]

i mean he does use it at the start, he just doesnt care about refreshing it again through the fight

[hardy kindle]

All I am saying is melee is half your damage, slice is your best ability

Look elsewhere, can’t base your opinion of one dude

[heady imp]

tbf i think that guys top 1 log is solely based on his crazy amount of luck with crits

but also on ghamoora, top 1 guy doesnt even have snd up through the whole part with with the shield down, he just spams spend his combo points on envenom

so what i can conclude from that is because he has 5 stacks deadly poison, its better to just hope for a couple envenom crits than using snd right

but i guess the boss fights are so short that logs become extremely luck based, its all about being the luckiest with ur crits rather than pressing the right buttons

the longer the fights, the less will the overall crit % vary on the abilities used through the fight on the logs right

[hardy kindle]

yeah

[near fox]

guides for backstab builds say to take Slaughter from the Shadows + Envenom - how does that even work? Won't envenom be useless without Deadly Brew applying Deadly Poison? Aren't you better off just using Eviscerate?

[jagged ether]

pretty sure youre better off not using a finisher at all as backstab (other than SND)

i think backstab hits harder than a 5 stack evisc lol

[near fox]

yeh thats what I was thinking, so legs slot is just filler i guess - might as well just keep Between the Eyes on Blade Dance on if you rip aggro as Envenom is actually not useable from what I can see

[jagged ether]

yeah envenom is definitely worthless at 25 for dagger spec

no way 6 secs of increased poison proc is worth a backstab worth of energy

[wraith python]

apparently turtle boss has enough armour to make snd not worth it

[nimble sleet]

you cant use envenom without deadly brew rune, the guide is saying basically use any rune on legs, and they put envenom as an example because they probably hurried or didnt pay attention to the mistake

[spice drum]

Idk why you would look at Ghamoo-ra when that is the only fight in the raid with unique mechanics regarding our ability prio

[spice drum]

With lots of daggers Evisc is better than Backstab, plus you're not factoring in the energy refund from the talent

[wraith python]

wish shadow was strong so priests could run homunculi

insane armour reduction

[hoary stream]

so is the DMF rep stuff gated or not?

can u just farm one turn in?

[tight gorge]

I feel like I need to test out the fist weapons
They both have a 15 nature dmg chance on hit proc at 1.4 speed
With a shiv build and envenom
When you 5 combo envenom + s&d for 6 seconds, you'd get about 12 (or 4-5) poison procs
Which translate to 9 procs (or 2-3) if account for the +75% proc rate
You can build up 5 shivs super quick, which let's you get more finishers
The high attack speed also let's you proc poisons more often too

[spice drum]

It is kinda gross that they haven't done much for Shadow

[ionic sierra]

It’s level 25

They don’t even have shadow form yet

Besides disc is disgustingly broken

[opaque vortex]

they can in most fights already

the only one with meaningful aoe going out where they really need pom is kelris

[wraith python]

interesting

[plush glacier]

couldnt this be tested with ritual dagger and boot knife unless you want the nature damage proc

[lilac wolf]

SoD question: Has anyone used flesh piercer as backstab spec? It just dropped for me but I’m afraid the bleed is just going to get in the way of gouge and make it not worth the extra damage. I just need a high damage dagger for backstab while I spam SFK for meteor shard and/or grind rep for WSG revered. Any thoughts?

[spice drum]

What are you Gouging often enough that the bleed is a problem?

I honestly couldn't tell you how many days its been since I gouge'd something in an instance

[lilac wolf]

Admittedly I don’t use it often, but when I need it I need it hahaha and I’d rather the bleed not get in the way

Oh no sorry I’m talking about PvP

Should have clarified

[coral portal]

gouge is kick when kick is on CD XD

[spice drum]

If my kick is on CD then the cast is going off

I'm not spending my kick and another 45 energy to gouge a second cast in 10s

[lilac wolf]

Basically my question is: is the higher weapon damage on the weapon worth sacrificing gouge in those PvP situations where I need it.

[spice drum]

I used Flesh Piercer for a bit with backstab build. In PvE the problem would be that your gouging too often, not that you're breaking gouge with bleed. In PvP however, it can sometimes interrupt the gouge nad be very annoying

It's hard to say. Really it comes down to whether you want a very consistent gouge CC, or slightly more DPS

If it helps your decision, I would absolutely treat the Flesh Piercer proc as a negative to the weapon rather than a bonus

[coral portal]

I think pvp will more often come down to your ability to cc vs small gains in damage

[spice drum]

^^^

[lilac wolf]

Yeah that was my thinking as well. I play with my two RL friends on Shaman/Druid so I mostly just spam backstab to drop stuff. I’ll try it out and see if the extra damage makes any measurable difference. I’ve just noticed that after a full thistle tea opener I pretty consistently get geared priests and whatnot to like 5% but can’t finish them, so I thought hey maybe a bit more damage will solve that problem. Thanks for the input!

[spice drum]

Now could you imagine how a thistle tea opener would feel if we had cheap shot

[lilac wolf]

lol that was my move on classic. “Camp volcano, blow everything including gnomish death ray for the guaranteed kill, afk for 5m, do it again.”

[opaque lynx]

So I just got Honed Darkwater Talwar. For the off-hand, I currently have Outlaw Sabre and Blackfang. Which OH would be better? Sabre for stats or Blackfang for weapon speed.

[obsidian siren]

Quick SoD question, would 2x Cruel barb be better than Cruel and Meteor shard for PvE DPS?

[coral portal]

your offhand speed should be fast for poison application - only time you want a slow offhand is for muti daggers, iirc

[livid sequoia]

See above about fast weapon. A good choice is Cross Dagger of X

of power, of the tiger, of the monkey, etc are all pretty good. Anything with agi / str / attack power

grats on the talwar

[pure dove]

Slaughter from the Shadows and some backstab talents look so damn potent, I am so surprised they're not performing better

[warm jacinth]

is there a good checklist of things to do once you are 25 anywhere as rogue?

[marble yew]

run BFD, do the PvP Event, do WSG

Discover

[tight gorge]

nah, but there are a good amount of things that you should do
ashenvale spam AND wsg spam for rep/honor
The sword and dagger are really good weapons
Sgt Cape is bis too
Spam some dungeons for some blues
Other than that if you have 20+ greens on all of your slots you're raid ready

This assumes you got your runes lol

Phase 1 is pretty light on content and easily done in a few weeks

and if you're not in a raiding guild, find one

Pugging is a nightmare

[warm jacinth]

tyty

how about we do a 10 man rogue BFD

[tight gorge]

lol no

[warm jacinth]

round robin loot

yolo

[tight gorge]

rogues are also a dime a dozen, gl

[warm jacinth]

we are just too elite

rogue best class

[tight gorge]

issue is, you're fighting for leather a LOT

[warm jacinth]

yeah true cant wait for next tier

[tight gorge]

since hunters, shamans, and druids also uses leather

[safe pelican]

have a question about pve dps. I was previosly running 2 cruel barbs but have recently picked up chipped bite of serrakis and meteor shard. is it worth re speccing and running both those daggers? or maybe chipped bite and barb? wanna maximise my dps for raid this afternoon

[tight gorge]

they're all good

[safe pelican]

should I still run saber slash spec even with 2 daggers?

[tight gorge]

no

you want a slow weapon for sabreslash

cruel barb is perfect for that

[safe pelican]

cruel barb is 30 - 57 and chipped bite is only 29 - 55

[tight gorge]

ah yeah you have that

yeah you can run it

you're not going to miss 1 - 2 dmg

[safe pelican]

or is it worth running mutilate backstab

cos 2 daggers

[tight gorge]

dont run backstab

deadly brew is just too good

[safe pelican]

yeah true

has anyone tried tried mutilate

[tight gorge]

it's okay

issue is that its contested with saber slash

[safe pelican]

saber slash is just to good i think

[tight gorge]

actually, it might be good enough, like 98% compared to saber slash

Here's the thing
it deals 20% more damage if you're behind your target due to opportunity
It also deals 20% more damage if the target is poisoned (it is)

you also get 2 combo points for 60 energy

[safe pelican]

yeah it might be really nice with the 2 daggers atleast untill i get talwar

[tight gorge]

here's the issue with the raid gear, all of the daggers are VERY fast daggers

like, 1.2-1.3 speed daggers

which doesnt synergize with mutilate

you need 2 slow daggers for mutilate to be worth it

[safe pelican]

1.8s?

both mine are 1.8

[tight gorge]

yeah that works then

[fickle spindle]

Why I cant use this?

[jagged ether]

relog

[fickle spindle]

creazy game

[zealous ingot]

you still want fast OH for tank ya?

[spice drum]

I don't see why you wouldn't. You're still using poisons

[spice drum]

Serra'kis is 1.8 which isn't fast

[spice drum]

It's bad, Backstab and preferably Saber Slash are better

The talents which make Mutilate really good aren't available yet, and Saber Slash is so good that mutilate just pales in comparison

[spice drum]

For the most part yes

[tight gorge]

30 - 36 bleed per 2 seconds is pretty good

[spice drum]

Yeah like Saber Slash is just doing too much damage to pass up

[tight gorge]

mutilate is 210% dagger damage if mh/oh is the same dagger

procs twice

[spice drum]

They are performing pretty well tbh

[spice drum]

What procs twice

?

[tight gorge]

poisons

its 2 attacks

[spice drum]

Well it has a chance to proc twice

[tight gorge]

trying to think why mutilate is considered bad

210% weapon damage isnt something to scoff att

[spice drum]

Well it's 1.2*(200%+40)

[tight gorge]

no

offhand deals 50% less damage

[spice drum]

According to what?

[tight gorge]

offhand always dealth 50% less damage

[spice drum]

Oh you mean by virtue of offhand not due to mutilate

[tight gorge]

ye

so its basically 150% weapon damage

[spice drum]

Yeah the numbers just don't add up to what Sabre Slash or Backstab add up to

[tight gorge]

180% if the target is poisoned

210% if mutilate from behind

[spice drum]

Yeah we know how Mutilate works but those numbers just don't add up to Sabre Slash with a sword

[tight gorge]

100% + 10~ bleed stack

[spice drum]

120 energy is 3(

Bro my messages keep senting before I'm done

[tight gorge]

100% + bleed * 3 for 40 energy

thats 43 - 82 before AP calcs

with talwar

[spice drum]

Yeah

?

[tight gorge]

assuming 200 AP (To keep it clean) thats +14.2 dps

which boosts it to about 64 - 126

for 40 energy

no wait

bad math

1 sec

should be higher

[spice drum]

You don't have to run the numbers here man, there are already several spreadsheets

[tight gorge]

lol, I've never seen one

[shadow mist]

does anyone have a WA that actually shows blade dance/tanking stuff

[pure dove]

I assume the numbers I've seen are just due to the fact that Saber Slash is more straight forward and requires a little less gearing? I kind of want to try out Backstab build

[spice drum]

My guess is just that since Saber Slash is slightly better most of the good players run it and people running Backstab include a larger amount of people who don't care about what's good

[spice drum]

I make my own, I'd recommend learning how. Super easy and it lets you customize it to be exactly what you want

[coral portal]

yeah for WA you can use one of the premade ones for buffs and modify it

[safe pelican]

the 60 energy for mutilate is a bit rough aswell, can almost cast 2 sabre slashes for the same with improved ss

[warm jacinth]

is rogue tank a thing rn

[spice drum]

Absolutely

It's strong against physical bosses but struggles against casters like Kelris because aside from their kicks, they are just a rogue who is taking the damage

No cloak of shadows or self heal or anything to mitigate magic damage

[warm jacinth]

do i put sharpen stone or instant poison on offhand for BFD

i have feral

[gilded saddle]

sharpen stone. don't need instant poison with deadly brew

[tranquil lynx]

can fist weapons be disarmed?

[warm jacinth]

envenom just procs on dp then?

[gilded saddle]

DB procs Instant poison which can apply DP

[feral mulch]

if anyone tried tank rogue would u guys recommend main gauche or just use saber slash? also do i use poisons or focus on sharpening stones? and if u have any recommended talent builds? thanks much

[proper niche]

Hey guys i want to roll a rogue and i kinda like pvp. İf i pick undead as a race over orc is it going to be fine xD or will i regret it ?

[simple vigil]

any rogues take 5/5 in precision in SoD?

[reef cairn]

do we use poisons on wep in raid?
or just sharpening stone and wild strikes

in SOD

[teal kiln]

Saber Slash all the way. At this level you're pretty much just a bit tankier DPS who still does alot of damage. I've been running deflection/riposte/endurance but will change to DPS talents simply because the damage in BFD is super low and so dmg mitigation is hardly needed.

[feral mulch]

i assume i need to have stam/agi/ of the monkey gear and im fine then?

[hardy kindle]

mainly stam

[teal kiln]

Stam is aight but there's nothing that kills you, as long as you don't have all items with agi/strength you're good to go

[tough tapir]

how does tank rogue mitigation work on kelris? from what i can see we have no spell damage reduction and relatively low stam, is it mainly just solid interrupts from the group and otherwise regular melee avoidance

[jagged ether]

you have none

you assumption is correct

[hardy kindle]

Just stack stam

[tranquil lynx]

apparently someone in the comments for the wowhead bis list is saying stam is a trap and shouldn't be going for stam at the cost of damage

[hardy kindle]

Of course its bait if you don’t need it. Go stam if you die. Go agy if you dont die,it will increase dmg/mitigation

Stam will only increase the window you give your healers to heal you.

[white merlin]

Does anyone actually have spell damage reduction at this level? That plan sounds like what most tanks have, honestly.

[spice drum]

Sharpen Stone. With Deadly Brew (the best chest rune) you don't need to apply poisons.

[spice drum]

Yeah

[spice drum]

Just use saber slash. It's a huge damage increase while Main Gauche is just 50% uptime on +10% parry. Until they buff it, Main Gauche feels really bad

[spice drum]

Both are very good for different reasons. If you want to play either one, you're going to be just fine

[spice drum]

Absolutely not for DPS, you might for tanking. To get precision you'd need to waste 3 talent points on either Improved Gouge or Lightning Reflexes which are both bad in PvE.

[spice drum]

Deadly Brew (the best Chest rune) applies poisons without needing to apply poisons. This is all in the guide

If you have a feral offering Wild Strikes, leave your main hand unbuffed and put a Sharpening Stone on your offhand. If you don't have a feral, put Sharpening Stone on both weapons.

[warm jacinth]

Ty

[spice drum]

It really depends on how good you and your teammates are. Stam is obviously good for survivability, but lots of people are bringing rogue tanks just to be big DPS and able to taunt

[spice drum]

You're absolutely right. If you are consistently kicking Kelris in phase 1, he basically puts out no damage. In phase 2 it starts to get scary, however, because like you said Rogues have no magic mitigation

[spice drum]

As silly as it sounds, you don't need more stam if you don't die. You want just enough stam to not die, and then as much damage as possible.

[opaque vortex]

deadly brew + sharepning stone + wild strikes

[feral mulch]

what about tank rogue?

[opaque vortex]

i think for tank rogue you probably don't, opting for blackfathom sharpening stones instead but idk

[sinful prairie]

I've been noticing some rogue BFD runs that don't use SnD... looks like prioritizing Rupture>Envenom>SnD. Am I missing something? Is there a minimum hit rating or something before SnD becomes priority?

[opaque vortex]

nice scam

@versed hatch idk who to ping about this but ^ might be compromised

that link goes here as you'd probably expect, very nice phishing

stecmcommunnity

[bleak python]

anyone tried to solo the Metzen quest yet?

[simple vigil]

i mean that makes sense, is a single combo point and 25 energy really worth more than 5% hit tho?

[spice drum]

Where are you getting "A single combo point and 25 energy"

adding 3 to Dodge and 5 to hit is 8 talent points out of the current build

[bleak python]

hit doesn't really matter at this point and imp SnD is the most important part about going heavy assassination

especially if you have the gloves but even without, sharpening stone gets you close enough

[coral portal]

The amount of energy you get during a fight is directly tied to how many abilities you get to cast, so anything that gives you energy back is huge

so grabbing relentless is pretty important

[spice drum]

Losing 8 talent points in the current build means losing 25 energy per finisher, a couple combo points per boss, several seconds of slice and dice, and 2% damage

All in exchange for 5% hit

[coral portal]

I think in later phases it might be more worth it, but definitely not this phase

what was the old hit cap, like 8% to ensure yellow damage never missed?

[bleak python]

iirc yellow 6 white 9 offhand higher

but BFD mobs are a little relatively closer in level than standard raids

so not sure what their cap is

[gilded saddle]

How rough is tanking in the dps build (and just swapping runes)?

I know you’d lose riposte and ~10% avoidance

[bleak python]

riposte is a pretty big part of it, wouldn't really recommend it

guess it depends on what you're tanking though

even specced for riposte you still do plenty of dmg

[gilded saddle]

Right now nothing beyond dungeons since I’m lvl 21 (alt) but just trying to plan for bfd

Unsure if I’m dpsing or tanking primarily, hoping to tank

[bleak python]

you won't be main tanking BFD because two bosses in there are very bad news for rogue tanks

as they strictly cast

but for the two fights that tank swap you should be able to manage, especially akumai though you want that extra mitigation

i haven't tried it yet but i feel like rogue tank might be very good for both tank swap fights if parries/dodges prevent the debuff from applying

[gilded saddle]

I’d assume I could tank turtle fine since it’s just a tank swap, but yeah akumai and kelris look rough

[bleak python]

honestly akumai might be best tanked with a paladin MT rogue OT if parries/dodges work how i think they should with his debuff

pally tanks until they have too many stacks then bubbles them off

if parry and dodge don't apply the debuff rogue can tank for a long time then pally comes back in and no need to ever cleanse

[empty wyvern]

imp backstab affects mutilate?

[spice drum]

You can absolutely still main tank as rogue

[bleak python]

yes everything but slaughter from the shadows affects multilate

[spice drum]

Rogue tanking in dungeons can be kinda tough since we have 0 aoe options but it's still possible. I'd definitely recommend getting as much parry as you can

[spice drum]

Unless it says it doesn't, it does

[bleak python]

feel like phase 2 kelris would be pretty brutal but i guess if you're stam heavy other tanks aren't particularly tankier against magic

[spice drum]

Exactly

[empty wyvern]

ye i thought same, but heard somewhere it didnt

prob fake news

[gilded saddle]

Oh I know, did WC and everyone focused not the primary target

It was an interesting experience but still felt better than bear tanking

[finite mountain]

What's better between envenom & rapture in pvp or boss ? Idk what to do in general, I like to use envenom butu rapture looks better idk

(SOD)

[earnest ibex]

rupture if u have feral mangle

otherwise envenom

if u dont know, envenom

[spice drum]

^^^

In PvP you shouldn't be running Envenom you should be running Between the Eyes, and you should most of the time be spending on Eviscerate, not Rupture

To clarify, you should be spending on eviscerate if you aren't spending on Between the Eyes. Between the Eyes is usually your pvp spender

[opaque vortex]

envenom also if the boss/target dies/goes immune before full rupture duration

which seems increasingly to be the case

[pastel snow]

debating with myself on what to put my last 4 talents in SoD. not tank. x2 Murder and x2 Imp. Sinister Strike, x2 Murder x2 Lethality. Anyone have an opinion on ths?

[spice drum]

"x2 Murder and x2 Imp. Sinister Strike, x2 Murder x2 Lethality."
I don't know what this means

You want, probably in this order as you level:
2/2 Imp SS, 5/5 Malice, 2/2 Murder, 3/3 S&D, 1/1 Relentless, 3/3 Ruthlessness

[wraith parcel]

Lethality is awful, do not talent it

[random tinsel]

Is classic like it used to be with talents being charged gold to respec?

[spice drum]

Yep

10s to respec + 10s for every time you've done it

[coral portal]

what's the decay time on that btw?

[spice drum]

I'm not sure if it does reset

[earnest ibex]

bois

whats the fastest way to get them waylaid suppliers to friendly

i been killin mobs n openin chests for like an hr now

no crates

[opaque vortex]

Crates

[coral portal]

supposedly gnoll camps are the best way

[opaque vortex]

Yea the gnoll camps + the venture co camp north of thunder blufd

There's a chest there with a 5min respawn that worked well to get to friendly

[gilded saddle]

The Thunderbluff was solid, the boulder mines is good too

There’s also chests north of camp taupo

[earnest ibex]

the chest here ?

[opaque vortex]

yea

spawns next to the entrances to the houses

i just made the trip back and forth to tb repeatedly to get my friendly

[spice drum]

If you're alliance just go to the gnoll camps behind Lakeshire and farm chests or go to Westfall and farm the gnolls by the hills

[earnest ibex]

horde

[earnest ibex]

thx

[spice drum]

Sorry then I'm honour bound to not assist you

[earnest ibex]

all g lol

[jagged ether]

i farmed at this little farm south of the cemetary in duskwood

3 chest spawn points with level 25-27 mobs

[drifting lintel]

anyone have concerns about rogue pvp? every seems to have insane armour and stam already...

shaman and metalock are often just hitting a brick wall

[gaunt lynx]

Do you have to be behind your target to benefit from Opportunity while using Mutilate?

[gritty crow]

Yes

[nimble sleet]

havent tested it but mutilate used to be behind the target in tbc when it was introduced. now its not, they are using the wrath mutilate

so idk how they tuned that talent, its badly worded

[livid sequoia]

Imo we won’t be having great pvp until 40

I’ve seen some fun ambush / backstab builds for insta killing squishy targets but you want good dagger for that

[spice drum]

Are you sure? From my limited testing in PVP it makes 0 difference whether you're in front of or behind your target, even with 5/5 Opportunity

[spice drum]

I'd encourage you to test it yourself. People keep saying different things. My limited testing suggests it doesn't matter

This is Opportunity's text:
"Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%"
but it seems that the "when striking from behind" is just flavour text and was, other than with Mutilate, considered redundant so they didn't actually code it into the game. So Opportunity is really:
"Increases the damage dealt with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%"

[spice drum]

Yeah we're pretty dookie right now

It's fun to 1-shot or 2-shot clothies in bad armour, but against similarly geared opponents we struggle hard

[livid sequoia]

Yeah I’ve had some fun grouping up with ppl and going PvE build

Can get pretty good sustained damage if you have a healer or someone else keeping you up

[spice drum]

Yeah what I do a lot of the time (mostly because I have Tulwar and Boot Knife and no good MH dagger) is switch to our pve build in WSG and just hunt EFC

You have really good sustained damage, and I've yet to see someone survive a pooled energy 5-point envenom burst

You need a healer with you though

[upbeat bear]

I've had the most fun with imp backstab opportunity, slaughter, btte, shadowstrike

Raid dagger main hand, wsg offhand. Always queue wsg from darn. Destroying most everyone besides shaman and lock tanks

[gritty crow]

Do we think mutilate will out perform Saber slash at lvl 40 once we can get the talents to generate more combo points on crits?

[earnest ibex]

i hoep so

[spice drum]

I don't think so assuming no other balance changes

[bleak python]

combat pvp with improved sprint and riposte is fun but you need to have a squad so you can be sure to get heals

just shadowstrike in and brawl

i have chipped bite and boot knife now but still like the combat build more than backstab in pvp

warriors/pallies only having mail means the mitigation gap isn't quite as big yet so it can be fun to surprise warriors when they try to go toe to toe with you and lose

plus no weapon chains

[steel turtle]

Seeing a lot of rogues running riposte and saber slash and that is the lamest shit ever just basically pve’ing. Most fun is just finding another rogue or two and blowing people up in ashenvale as they enter/leave town with ambush and backstab.

[livid sequoia]

Relevant username hahah

If I get a good MH dagger I will become an ambush rogue in your honor

[steel turtle]

It’s all about deleting someone asap, we rogues gotta make people as mad as possible.

But if I did get BFD sword I’d prob saber slash some 😅

[round oriole]

is anyone else's weapon swing timer addon broken?

[spice drum]

Lots of people have been saying that new SOD weapons aren't in the database so their swing timer addon is broken

[quaint veldt]

Should I be 5 pt rupturing on BFD bosses witha feral in group

[odd copper]

just parsed a fucking 96 on kelris WITH ONLY SHARPENING STONE AND WILD STRIKES

getting those gains

somecunt trolled us early in raid and caused us to wipe, lost blackfathom boon, darkmoon faire buff, elixr of lesser agility and less strength, both of which i only bought one cause i presumed we wouldn't wipe

i was so fucking mad cause i was planning to get like a really good performance down tonight and it all got ruined cause some dumdfuck random paladin stood in a bubble next to me

i legit want to dox him like my night was fucking ruined until i saw that 96

[quaint veldt]

that's awesome man, so what about rupture

[odd copper]

rupture is piss keep SnD up at all costs, if you have time left on it use envenom if you wanna, fuck helping a druid get your own damage up

[quaint veldt]

well i mean you get a bleed bonus from mangle

so im wondering if its worth

[coral portal]

I believe folks have been saying rupture is the better option with a mangle druid

[round oriole]

question does the druid WF work if i have instant poison on?

no right? i need to equip deadly brew to chest

[unique arch]

hi all, question im a rogue in sod, got the gustin wind drops in the raid any good ?

[odd copper]

instant poison being applied makes deadly brew redundant, run blackfathom sharpening stones in raid on your offhand and wild strikes on main

[round oriole]

stones on AH?

[odd copper]

Yup

Like 20s a pop on my server

[round oriole]

thx boss

so pretty much im just maintaining slice and dice and letting the autos fly?

[spice drum]

yessir

[spice drum]

You aren't helping the druid lol the druid is helping you

And rupture is "getting your own damage up"

At least from what I've seen

[odd copper]

Yh I misunderstood

Didn’t know bleeds benefitted from mangle damage, I thought it was other way round

That bleeds that were applied increased mangle damage I was talking about it with gildies after I posted that lul

As far as I understood using envenom or slice and dice was just the best way to spend combo points

[spice drum]

Yeah I haven't seen verified proof that it's better but rogues that are better than I am have said that it is

Although Simon's spreadsheet would suggest that it is worse

[odd copper]

Yeah rupture damage is pretty piss lol

My usual 10 man has a Druid tank but he usually dps’ during like the first boss or kelris so I’ll try it out for when when only need 1 tank

[spice drum]

I rogue tanked today so I didn't have deadly brew and I was absolutely Rupturing over Eviscerating to spend cp*

Envenom, I'd go either way. But I feel like Mangle Rupture > Eviscerate for sure

[opaque vortex]

i have yet to see a 5cp rupture with mangle up ever do more on my logs than just envenoming on 5 stacks

it's coming in as like 244 vs 272 for non-crits or something

[earnest ibex]

can u link the spreadsheet/

[empty wyvern]

If u bace SnD and u get 5 combo but u did not stack 5 deadly yet, then use rupture...thats the only scenario where it is better

Cause esvisc will never be

With mangle up*

[modern elbow]

I feel like we need lv 60 and lots of agility before that build will be better. Lv 40 we get so much with sword spec and saber slash

[spice drum]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1yymRVs-YZzrZU8-_BDmB1R9C8agpbgpP?usp=sharing

[earnest ibex]

gracias

[frigid adder]

Hi just joined what is the damage difference the vamparic boot knife and the gusting wind off hand?

I have both now and honestly it might only be like a 1-2 dps difference

[earnest ibex]

we rank 3 bb

@_@

[spice drum]

yeah they're super close, about a 1dps difference. Boot knife is better

[tranquil lynx]

sweet got leggings of the fang on my second attempt

[hardy kindle]

Yo honest question, cruel barb vs WC mace. 12AP > poison proc dmg + deadly application ?

[sick parcel]

is chipped bite of serra'kis really better in offhand than vampiric boot knife when doing saber slash with honed darkwater talwar in main hand?

[livid sequoia]

Cruel Barb seems to be marginally better

They have same swing damage right? So the AP benefits all your hits, where that poison proc is more limited

[plush glacier]

I would use boot knife OH over serra, I was until I got ritual knife

[spice drum]

Boot Knife is our bis unless you want the BOE

[brittle ravine]

so how early can you solo the deadly brew rune?

[spice drum]

Just wait until 22 when you get vanish. You can do it before that but it's a pain in the ass

[brittle ravine]

so i could do it at 20?

[spice drum]

Technically yeah

[plush glacier]

Yeah I was reading ritual knife is basically exactly the same but I got both daggers in a run so I was swapping them around to see. But it's identical

[opaque vortex]

yeah hard recommend just getting to 22 for deadly brew

although i did it without vanish, having distract helps a lot

and i respecced into master of deception and camouflage just to make it easier

[earnest ibex]

do it without vanish or distract

its fun

and very doable

[raven snow]

Yeah i have both chipped tooth and boot knife. Was kinda wondering myself which is the better OH with honed sword. Honestly thing about trying mutilate now that i have both.

Which boe is better than them. I haven’t looked at too many boes.

[severe grail]

guys for backstab build: My MH chipped bite of Serra'kis and OH Gusting Wind or Meteor Shard? i cant decide

[spice drum]

Serra'kis and GW

[hearty oxide]

Any Rogue specific farms going around?

I have just been fishing, and it's decent, but awful as hell

Leveled a Warlock to 25 and really don't want to level a Druid or Warlock just for farming lol

[coral portal]

https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=5373/lucky-charm

These seem to sell semi-decently

and some decent farm spots for them in Redridge

[hearty oxide]

Avg price you think?

[hearty oxide]

I'm Horde so it would be Barrens

[coral portal]

I want to say I've been seeing them go for maybe 15ish silver per, but it's been a little bit since I last checked

[coral portal]

oh I was way off, currently going for about 40-50s per

[ornate oak]

I read guides but I can't decide, on WOTLK for pve should i go Assa or Combat ?

[hardy kindle]

Wotlk is dead mate

[hearty oxide]

Even better

[brittle ravine]

am i missing something when i don't understand how people are topping parses with daggers and saber strike?

slash*

shouldn't swords and other slower weapons be better?

[spice drum]

They are, and that's why sword users are topping parses. Where are you seeing daggers?

[brittle ravine]

when unfolding their character tab on warcraftlogs

maybe swapping for pvp?

[spice drum]

I'm not gonna check them all but the top 11 Aku'mai parses are all using sword

[brittle ravine]

i'm probably just being dumb in a way i don't know

[spice drum]

Yeah I'm not sure if its a setting you are filtering for or something. But all the top parsers have Tulwar

[opaque vortex]

yea i just pulled one up randomly and they're wearing talwar

[weak jacinth]

Anyone know the best pvp/pve dagger spec

[modern elbow]

Would you guys use boot knife over tooth?

I have like every weapon lol

[spice drum]

What is tooth?

Boot Knife is our BiS aside from the Green BoE's

[modern elbow]

The chipped tooth of serakis or whatever

[weak jacinth]

is the saber slash build better for pvp and pve?

I didnt like it before but its kinda pog

[spice drum]

Oh. Chipped Bite of Serra'kis. Boot Knife is much better

[spice drum]

Its better in pve for sure, and neither saber nor backstab is "better" in pvp. They offer different things

Saber Slash is better sustained dps, Backstab is better burst

[modern elbow]

Ty sir

[hoary stream]

did they change something aobout pick pocket macros?

i feel like im not getting the PP off anymore

[weak jacinth]

Thank you

@spice drum

[coral portal]

It definitely feels like it’s not looting fast enough sometimes

I had noticed the same thing

[hoary stream]

i have a feeling u might need to be standing still before using the PP+attack macro

i only just noticed I cant PP if im moving

idk if it was like that before

[coral portal]

Ohhhh yeah you’re right, I think it closes the loot window if you move

[lost stratus]

bite of serakis or scout's blade for OH? what we thinkin

[frail mural]

If you are running this Saber/build do you want the absolute fastest offhand possible

[lost stratus]

im running saber ye

[opaque vortex]

you want whatever is faster

[spice drum]

For the most part yeah. Some slower daggers are better than faster options, but they have to either have huge dps or big stats like the boe daggers

[twilit musk]

I have 2x bite of serakis and a Vampiric boot knife. Should I roll with both serakis or Serakis + Boot knife?

Playing backstab btw

[ripe root]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I have no idea to search on discord: Do you want a slow or fast MH for tanking rogue?

[opaque vortex]

Still slow, sinister strike is your primary generator, slow strong weapon = more threat

[spice drum]

Slow MH. Instead of following rules given to you by others try to understand why you're being told those things

[fickle spindle]

what would be the next BFD rest?

[spice drum]

People say we want a slow MH because it scales the power of our abilities. What about tanking changes that? Nothing

[spice drum]

3 days from now

[fickle spindle]

Wednesday then?

[spice drum]

Yes Wednesday is three days from now

[spice drum]

Chipped Bite

[junior sundial]

Anyone around that could help me figure out why I am parsing so low/

[spice drum]

Post your log homie

[junior sundial]

https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/wild-growth/sag

Just learned about energy pooling at certain times which I tried to incorporate last night.

[wary ruin]

I have a question. I have full defias armor set. I got tunic of westfall, and restedxp addon says it's a 2% upgrade, I also see that tunic in a lot of sites that show pre-bis gear.
but when I equipp it I lose dmg, attack power, and health
but gain 1% critical strike
is that trade off really worth it, for pve?

[junior sundial]

Never played classic rogue so I before I was just using abilities as soon as I had the energy.

[spice drum]

Answered in the other discord

[wary ruin]

thanks.

[spice drum]

So unfortunately on mobile I'm slower than I'd like but immediately I'm noticing you're using Mutilate

Which is the weakest of the 3 usable rogue builds right now

with Chipped Bite of Serra'kis you're better off using Backstab unless you just really prefer Mutilate gameplay

Usually you're fine using abilities as soon as you have the energy, pooling energy is best for when there is some phase of either a) the boss takes more damage or b) you deal more damage

For example if you're running Envenom which makes you more likely to apply poisons after casting it. You want to pool energy beforehand so you can cast more abilities to benefit from the buff

Another instance where you want* to pool energy is in Gelihast (your only grey parse fight). He takes like 0.01% damage between phases, so you want to farm up to 5 combo points and then just pool energy until he is taking full damage again

[silent cosmos]

there's no sod channel ? rogue discord is so empty compared to others

[spice drum]

There's a dedicated Rogue Classic discord server that's more active. And there's also the Simonize discord. Rogues are pretty spread

[hexed solar]

hey guys, noob here so I appreciate the answer, .... anyone knows if embrace of the viper 2 set works on poisons in Season of discovery?

[spice drum]

It should. They are nature damage after all. I can't confirm it though

[bleak python]

I've tested it and it doesn't

unfortunately

[hexed solar]

thanks for the info guys ❤️

[bleak python]

maybe would affect envenom, didn't test that

[junior sundial]

Thanks for the feedback. So basically I should just switch over to backstab until I get a better weapon for sabre strike?

[spice drum]

If you're concerned about your parses yeah

I always encourage people to do what they find fun, but if you want to parse higher then yeah go for Backstab

I haven't ran the numbers because I got Tulwar before Serra'kis but you might even be better off with Saber Slash build with Serra'kis

[uncut bronze]

So my friend and I have been debating, if I have cruel barb, chipped bite, and vampiric boot knife for the meta saber slash, deadly brew, and envenom build; is chipped bite main hand and vampiric boot knife in offhand or cruel barb in main hand vampiric boot knife better? He thinks the fact the chipped bite attacks so much faster and that cruel barb is only like 1 damage higher makes the double daggers better, and I have no idea but I lean towards cruel barb cause of 12 ap and being human.

[spice drum]

Cruel Barb + Boot Knife

The reason you use Cruel Barb is the AP, not the marginal swing damage increase

[uncut bronze]

thank you

[spice drum]

Your reasoning is absolutely right. Cruel Barb is slightly better in general, but if you're human it becomes considerably better

[oblique bronze]

What's better Serra'kiss vs gusting wind?

[spice drum]

Gusting Wind

With Serra'kis you'll be frustrated by how often you drop DP stacks

[oblique bronze]

thank you

[frail mural]

That guy is wrong. Use double daggers ABSOLUTELY. The DPS difference is massive, and more windfury procs is way too good.

[spice drum]

^ This guy is wrong. You're vastly underestimating the Attack Power. Don't believe me? Test it out

[opaque vortex]

Plug it into simonize's sheet and see which comes out ahead

[hardy kindle]

Cruel + serakis

[opaque vortex]

GW offhand > serra'kis

Dropping DW DP stacks is tilting

But also more frequent damage proc is just better dps if both OHs are dealing half melee anyways

[hardy kindle]

Dot from serakis doesnt count?

[opaque vortex]

No that's not deadly poison

[hardy kindle]

Deadly brews tooltip says poison dmg will apply deadly. I guess itself direct dmg only

[opaque vortex]

Instant procs deadly

[hardy kindle]

Tooltip says poison procs

I thought serakis dot proc deadly because tooltip

[wraith parcel]

Its referring to rogue poisons, but thats a fair assumption

[lost palm]

Do rogues apply crippling to OH in classic with deadly brew? or does it not allow OH to proc instant?

[lost palm]

yeah thats sort of why im asking though lol is it worth the deadly stacks and not get instant procs?

cause you dont put it on MH right cause of WF

[spice drum]

Crippling does no damage

So if you're doing pve there's no reason to use crippling and lose the instant procs

And yeah you don't put any poisons on MH because of WF

[hardy kindle]

No poison = instant procs
Instant procs= deadly stacks

[still hill]

Green 10 attack power dagger better then all the fist weapons in bfd?

1.3 fist weapons are 1.4 unsure if I should swap or just keeping using the 10 attack power dagger

[brittle ravine]

anyone else doing solo dungeon runs for gear? I can do the WC one for legs, anyone else have any fun runs to try?

[hexed solar]

guys, any Sod build / guide for pvp rogue that I can read or something? first time playing rogue

[quartz cradle]

Wowhead guide isn’t bad to start for pve

[jagged ether]

Guide for pvp is to reroll hunter or priest 😂

[spice drum]

The +10 AP dagger is one of the top weapons, I'm pretty sure it will go from bis to barely not bis depending on your other items.

[finite mountain]

Is it okay to have dagger main hand and sword left hand ? 😮 (sod)

[spice drum]

It's okay in theory but there's not many cases where it's optimal

Why do you ask?

[finite mountain]

Cause i'm actually two swords but I would like to play backstab, but I got only the dagger level 25 pvp ^^'

[finite mountain]

How do we really play backstab in pvp tho?

I'm tryin to ambush + backstab, but then I got no energy

Slice & dice is a must ?

[spice drum]

Slice and Dice is terrible in pvp

It's good in pve

Your opener in pvp should almost always be Ambush + Backstab

[finite mountain]

It's fine but if the guy isn't dead ?

Since I need shadowstrike to get close...

Btw is it possible to get a macro to shadowstrike+ambush ? I'm tryin but it doesn't work

[spice drum]

You shouldn't need shadowstrike to get close, but if you do, it replaces Ambush

[spice drum]

No. Both abilities require you to be in stealth

The moment one goes off, you leave stealth and can no longer cast the other. Plus they're both on the GCD so you'd have to wait 1.5s anyway

[finite mountain]

Shadowstrike is useful in warsong 😦

[finite mountain]

So shadowstrike +backstab ?

[spice drum]

Yeah. Your specific priority will depend on the fight

You might want to Ambush into a Gouge or a backstab or a million other combinations

[queen forge]

PSA for my SOD rogues who like juicy crits and want a different option for pre-bis gloves. try Fletcher’s gloves. While the tooltip says these gloves only give 1% crit chance to ranged attacks it is wrong. They give a 1% bonus to melee attacks as well.

[rustic iris]

how's rogues in SoD? How gear-dependent?

[opaque vortex]

They're topping all boss average

Very good

Not as gear dependent as warriors but weapons are important

Yes you're gonna need gear to do damage but that is true for everybody

[rustic iris]

how easy to obtain is the gear? How much competition? Do we need world drops or crafted gear?

[queen forge]

BIS stuff from the bfd raid is pretty contested becuase leather wearers often make up the majority of the team.

[spice drum]

Very strong dps (#1 or #2 dps in the raid), strong tank, very weapon dependant but not very armour dependant for dps, struggling in pvp

[hexed solar]

In PVP do I want two daggers or dagger + sword?

[spice drum]

For a backstab build? Usually you want a faster OH to proc your poisons faster.

[hexed solar]

Oh yeah I forgot, backstab build i guess

[fickle spindle]

Does anyone know how I start the chain for this quest: Protect Kanati Greycloud

[hardy kindle]

Have you considered looking into the comments from it on wowhead?

[feral mulch]

whats better guys

or

[hardy kindle]

Meteor

[feral mulch]

thanks much

[spice drum]

Cross Dagger

[spice drum]

Meteor is not better

@feral mulch You want the cross dagger. The significantly faster speed and the extra Attack Power is way better than what Meteor Shard offers

[feral mulch]

that was what i believed

[spice drum]

Offhand damage is heavily reduced so higher DPS can often be misleading

[hardy kindle]

Mhhhh maybe but the difference isnt trival to clearing the content

[spice drum]

Do you mean it is trivial?

Because the content being trivial doesn't change the fact that the cross dagger is better

[hardy kindle]

What I am saying is the diff isnt that much that it will not affect if you will clear content or not

[spice drum]

Yeah, I'm saying that regardless of that fact, the Cross Dagger is better. You could clear content without an OH at all

[frosty forum]

Meteor OH or cruel barb OH as HUMAN i feel like the barb is hitting harder

[jagged ether]

meteor but get a faster OH ASAP

[frosty forum]

Thank u hopefully serrakis tn

[bleak python]

serrakis is same speed as meteor, better because stats and dmg but not by much

boot knife is the offhand you want from bfd

[rustic iris]

In raid when leather gear drops, does tank, healer, or dps get prio?

[spice drum]

That's not how it works

"leather gear" could benefit anybody

It depends on the piece of gear and the stats it gives. A high armour and high stam leather piece most likely goes to the tank, for example

[rustic iris]

let's say it's a str agi gear

[spice drum]

Then it depends on what dps classes you have

[rustic iris]

rogue and hunter

[spice drum]

That would most likely go to the rogue

Are you new to wow?

Your approach to loot isn't really how anybody else does it

[rustic iris]

How do ppl do it?

[spice drum]

If it's an improvement for you, roll on it

If it's only a marginal improvement for you and a large improvement for someone else, let them have it.

[knotty owl]

Anybody able to use the AutoBuy feature with Poisoner? Not sure if it isnt working properly or if i cant figure it out.

Also, how can u remove poison from weapon?

[coral portal]

right click on the buff to remove it

[jagged ether]

doesnt work

in classic

either override it or use up the charges

[coral portal]

it doesn't? I could have swore I've done it in SoD...I'll have to double check that

[jagged ether]

i suppose my ui could be breaking it

[coral portal]

I know I've right clicked general buffs off before because I did that for the Darkmoon Faire cannon launch to get rid of the wings

[tough tapir]

It doesn't work

[south vector]

hah, got a cruel barb

my riposte damage went way up

[coral portal]

was rupture (with mangle) the better option over envenom on just a specific BFD fight, or for all of them?

[south vector]

feels so weird making my own poison

[spice drum]

Some people were saying its better in general but I don't buy it. I think Rupture only beats envenom if your gear is dookie

Don't take my word for it though. Sim it or test it yourself

[tough tapir]

When do we think yeti logs are getting purged

[coral portal]

was curious about this - is there a good sim for SoD?

[south vector]

WCL said they weren't touching SoD

[spice drum]

There is for rogue, look for Simonize's spreadsheet

[coral portal]

That's what I looked for, I couldn't find anything that was for SoD, didn't have any of the rune abilities or anything on it

[spice drum]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1yymRVs-YZzrZU8-_BDmB1R9C8agpbgpP?usp=sharing

[coral portal]

ty ty, sorry for the trouble - feel like that should be pinned somewhere XD

[south vector]

If you just want instant poison damage and are using deadly brew, there's no point using it? Or does applied poison proc more than the default?

[white merlin]

There's no difference in proc rate for putting a consumable Instant Poison on your weapon or using the "free" one that Deadly Brew gives.

In short: If you want Crippling or Mind-Numbing Poisons, put them on a weapon. Otherwise, don't put poison on your weapon at all.

[void scaffold]

sod discussion is here ?

[wise swallow]

I've got Serra'kis and Boot Knife. Only sword I have is Cruel Barb.

Should I still be running Sabre?

[twilit musk]

How much are you guys charging for WC leggings/belt runs?

[spice drum]

Cruel Barb + Boot Knife Saber build, yes

[void scaffold]

first one and then selling runs

[wise swallow]

the dmg on Serra is very close to the Cruel Barb. It's just faster. What is important about the Cruel Barb for Sabre?

[spice drum]

It's not a dagger so it has better normalized AP, it has +10 Attack Power, and if you're human, it's a Sword

[wise swallow]

thanks for the info!

[spice drum]

The slower the weapon, the more it scales with AP

[void scaffold]

how to decide what to wear btw AP and AGI ? im so confused cuz installed pawn :/ and now hate myself ;d

for example 10ap vs 5agi, whats better for pve saber slash build

[spice drum]

1 STR = 1 AP. They are identical.
1 AGI = 1 AP and the tiniest amount of crit and dodge

[void scaffold]

1 agi isn't 1.6-1.7 ap like I thought ?

[spice drum]

The specific number you want to value AGI over AP depends on your build, but generally I'd take something like 6 AP = 5 AGI

[spice drum]

Nope, it's 1:1

[spice drum]

Definitely the 10 AP

[void scaffold]

so 10ap vs 5ap here, right

[spice drum]

yep

and like 0.15% crit and dodge

[void scaffold]

so I can forgot about the wrists, like its the bis tho, with ap ok

can u help me with one more the same thing to decide pls ?:d

I have outlaw sabre in MH and have these ones for OH, again for pve saber slash build
@spice drum

[spice drum]

Cross Dagger and Gusting Wind both beat out Meteor Shard by a mile

Not sure which is better between those two. I would suspect the Cross Dagger

You could sim it in Simon's spreadsheet

[eternal gust]

has anyone found a combat indicator addon that works for wow classic

[void scaffold]

where is it ? Simon's spreadsheet

sadge that I found SIM for warriors for sod on github, would be cool to have the same for rogues

https://guybrushgit.github.io/WarriorSim/ looks amazing

[coral portal]

#classic-discussion message

[brave mountain]

wild strike still procs with sharpening on mh, right?

seems like it at least

[jagged ether]

no

[brave mountain]

could've sworn I saw a tornado on me despite having 4m left on my sharpened weapon

[void scaffold]

no poisons ? or.. im confused

[jagged ether]

deadly brew rune

[void scaffold]

so u dont have to apply poisons ? rly? like, it will ruin wild strikes and etc?

[spice drum]

Yes. Read the rune

It specifically tells you that you don't need to have any poisons applied

[jagged ether]

How does the +2 weapon damage affect your weapon? Is it +1/+1 to low/top end? +2 top end? +2 to both?

[spice drum]

If it was +1 to both it would be a +1 damage increase. It's a +2 to top end and low end.

[void scaffold]

so if there is no feral in my group, I should use 2x instant ?

[spice drum]

Why would you do that

[void scaffold]

then nothing ?

[ornate fulcrum]

If no feral you should put a stone on your mainhand and off hand instead of just on off hand.

[spice drum]

You should always run Blackfathom Sharpening Stone on offhand, and run it on mainhand too unless you've got a feral druid

[void scaffold]

so if I have no druid ?

[spice drum]

Then you have to learn how to help yourself man. In the message right before I told you "run it on mainhand too unless you've got a feral druid."

[jagged ether]

no feral means find a new raid

[dense stone]

anyone here playing season of discovery and did get the deadly brew rune?

[spice drum]

Yes

[dense stone]

yea nvm, figured it out that i was trying to let go the wrong npc from the cage lmao

[wraith python]

anyone have a working estimated time to kill wa that calcs based off raid dps etc?

[spice drum]

No and if I raided with someone who used that WA I think I would call them a loser

[wraith python]

what is the downside of having that information

lmao

[spice drum]

It's just so goofy

[wraith python]

??

[spice drum]

People have WA's and addons play the game for them so much

[wraith python]

if ur in a guild u know what ur kill time will be

anyways

dont see what u gain in yolo guessing that info instead of estimating it idk

if u think that is goofy, u do u king

[plucky nymph]

[spice drum]

I explained exactly what you gain. You gain the pleasure in knowing that you estimated the time yourself rather than following what a script is telling you

[opaque vortex]

[wraith python]

u really get pleasure in that lmao

fair enough

pop off

[spice drum]

To each their own, but I personally think it's silly to automate the game down to that level

[opaque vortex]

which is exactly why you shouldn't care or even need to respond to him asking about one if you don't have one lmao

[spice drum]

My bad I thought this was a public discord

I'm saying I think it's goofy. He says he doesn't think its goofy

[wraith python]

yah hes fine to say what he thinks

would be boring if ppl kept their opinions to themselves

[spice drum]

^ exactly. I encourage everyone to play exactly how they want to play

[tough tapir]

I assume for pvp backstab build you want a slower mh like bite of serakiss and then a fast oh?

any situation where you would want boot knife and ritual blade for instance?

[south vector]

Rogue tanking is so fun. Pity it doesn't get the shaman hp modifier, but I'll take 20% phys reduction which sounds like it stacks on top of armor so less DR to worry about. AoE threat is kinda annoying but a saber slash is usually enough. Just find a way to give me combo points on myself and I'd want this for retail.

[jagged ether]

the rune is so bad compared to the other class runes lmao

show someone who doesnt know better the shaman and rogue rune buffs and i bet 90% of them will think the shaman one is for rogues

[south vector]

20% phys dr can be situationally stronger than 10% flat dr. Locks don't get extra hp from their rune either and they don't even get dodge or parry talents

But shaman can always slap on a shield and get mail next phase

Maybe a next phase rune will give rogues that hp or armor modifier

Warlocks will hit armor cap with ease I think though through armor trinkets and weapons like bears do.

[fallen belfry]

Is crescent dagger and goblin screwdriver good enough for pvp

[woven vault]

Cruel Barb or Shaowfang In SoD?

[light cedar]

Hello, des francophone ici pour discuter un peu ?

[ripe root]

I really just wanted to know what's best tbh. I don't wanna go more in depth on the class that I never play outside of filling missing spots for my guild. I leave that to my mains. I appreciate the info though!

[spice drum]

Cruel Barb

[spice drum]

No worries homie

[spice drum]

Having a fast OH to apply your OH poison matters way less in PvP than having a slow heavy hitting MH for big backstabs. If you're running poisons on OH that you want to proc more often, a faster OH is good

[woven vault]

How come?

[coral portal]

The attack power is better than the proc, IIRC

Cruel Barb being .1 slower also means it scales slightly better with AP

[oblique granite]

@spice drum would double serrakis daggers be bis for mutilate pvp

[spice drum]

Yep. Very important to keep in mind that you'll basically never be able to Gouge or Sap because the Serra'kis poison will break it

Double serrakis slaps so hard with mutilate

[spice drum]

1. It is a sword, not a dagger, so it has better AP scaling. 2) It gives you +12 AP which is a lot. 3) It is slower so your AP gives it more damage per swing. 4) If you're a human you get +5 skill

[woven vault]

Shaowfang is a sword too

[deep cedar]

guys as a sword main hand, what is better?

• 14-26 dmg, 2.30 spd, +2 agi
• 16-30 dmg, 2.50 spd, +1 str, +1 agi

[spice drum]

For some reason I thought you were comparing it with Serra'kis in that reply, my bad. My original reply was comparing it to Shadowfang tho. It's mostly the AP which squeaks it out into being slightly better

[spice drum]

The second one, but neither one is going to last you a very long time and they are incredibly close

The second one has better dps, slower swing time, and better swing damage, and you're only losing out on 1 AGI in favour of 1 STR.

[trail yacht]

Can anyone tell me if it’s worth to use Slice and Dice?
I can’t tell if SnD with current weapon damage is worth using over a big Envenom.

[jagged ether]

snd should be as close to 100% uptime as possible

[spice drum]

SnD is our best spender, you want to keep it up as much as possible

Generally I've been starting with SnD and alternating between it and Envenom. That keeps it at a very high uptime

In pvp though SnD is pretty dookie

[trail yacht]

Alright!

Would it change anything if not being talented into imp. SnD or even switching to Mutilate?

[spice drum]

I don't think so but I haven't really given it much thought because imp. SnD is so strong

Whether you're using Mutilate or Backstab or Saber you still want to be prioritizing SnD

[trail yacht]

Alright 🙂
Thanks a lot!

[deep cedar]

thank you so much

[bold epoch]

been looking back at messages and can't find anything on this... how do i decide if i should be going mutilate or backstab build? just sims?

[spice drum]

I mean you should always use sims, but I don't think you ever want to go mutilate build right now

Backstab is just better and Saber Slash is even better than that

[south vector]

Does just the bleed get buffed by mangle or is this one of those cases the entire ability is a bleed

[slender rivet]

Yo where do you have people stand for the leggings of the fang sell?

[hardy kindle]

In corner after 2 first raptors

[spice drum]

I imagine it's just the dot but this is something interesting to think about

[south vector]

I only ask cause details doesn't separate them

[lunar flume]

in sod does nature damage affect poisons or deadly brew?

[wise swallow]

does anybody know if we can still rune swap in order to Shadowstrike and then go back to Saber Slash rune?

[south vector]

I don't know if it scales with anything outsied of AP with Deadly Brew

[coral portal]

from what I've heard/seen there's a CD when you swap

[wise swallow]

ok thought I'd read that

[spice drum]

No, you get a 30s CD

[south vector]

woo, nothing dropped for leather all raid until Akumai, but I won the vampiric dagger OH and the pearl for the trinket

Maybe next reset I'll get a helm and neck

[raven snow]

does deadly brew mean I don't actually have to apply instant poison?

[oblique granite]

yes, you can apply sharpening stones and you will still apply instant poison and deadly poison with it.

[raven snow]

oh damn, I've been making instant poisons xD

[spice drum]

boot knife and pearl is pog lootings

[spice drum]

Only poisons worth crafting rn are Crippling / Mind-Numbing for pvp

[raven snow]

and if I get crippling

should I apply it on both weapons

or only 1?

[raven snow]

also what runes should I use for pvp?

[bleak blaze]

I'm using shadow strike, slaughter from the shadows and the ranged stun. Main damage is backstub. If the target has too much armor - I switch to saber slash and brew.

Haven't tried mut at all. Maybe it's good, but 60 energy feels bad to play with.

[solemn fox]

for mutilate, with chipped bite main hand, is it better to have a fast or slow dagger in OH?

[raven snow]

ah but I play sword dagger

[opaque vortex]

if you're playing sword MH you want saber strike

straight up

[fervent eagle]

saber/quick draw/stun i run with bis mh sword, 7/9/0

[raven snow]

and deadly brew Im assuming?

[fervent eagle]

no, quick draw goes on that slot

[south vector]

It's a pity main gauche has such a long CD otherwise slow off hands for tank would be interesting

[spice drum]

Pretty sure Serra'kis is our bis for muti and its 1.8 speed

[steel plover]

anyone have any nice simple weakauras for SoD?

[spice drum]

it doesn't take long to learn how to set up your own weakauras, I would recommend it. This took me like 30 minutes total. Chicken leg CP tracker is optional

[plucky nymph]

You misspelled optimal.

[hallow coral]

is there any guide for sod best weapon at main and off hand pvp build

[crystal elk]

Rogue tanks for sod: is it just me or is our threat and dps dogwater compared to ret paladin?

I tank on my pally as ret and do great dps and threat, when I tank on my rogue it’s kind of abysmal

Like 60 dps, and threat is shit

I do tease/saber slash/blade dance- 1 cp dances and spare cp into SnD

Full combat tree talents to pick up riposte

But I feel like combat tree and riposte is a total trap. Riposte is a dps increase when you parry, which doesn’t happen as often as I’d like.

Why shouldn’t we just talent for full crit like normal DPS rogues? I feel like doing that would result in better DPS

And therefore better threat

[idle cedar]

Only seen rogue tanks do well off tanking

Which as of yet isn't really needed in anything as you can solo tank most things

[crystal elk]

Just found the classic/sod rogue discord and people there said to not go combat tree and riposte for tanking

That it’s all literally a trap and to just go full 14/2/0 assa talent, DPS gear itemization for better threat and DPS

that’s generally the sentiment among the better tanks for other classes too. E.g. paladin ret>prot

[idle cedar]

I just damage spec tank as a warrior too

Get enough defense from gear

Block rates aren't high enough for the rage on block to be significant

And charge/clap are available in Def stance now

[fervent eagle]

5% dodge from combat talent equals alot of agil

other talents no rly usefull for tanking idd

[median marten]

Heyya, would you use Gusting Wind, Sentinel's Blade or Cross Dagger of Power as OH?

[lyric wren]

@crystal elk can you link sod rogue discord? been looking for it

[crystal elk]

I can’t generate an invite and don’t remember which link online led me to it

[lyric wren]

whats it called at least?

[opaque vortex]

Gusting Wind

[spice drum]

It is. When I rogue tank I change none of my talents, I only change my runes. Combat is a trap right now

[spice drum]

Dodge is the worst thing AGI offers us, so it isn't really accurate to look at that talent as equaling a lot of agility

[spice drum]

Cross Dagger of Power 100%. It's basically bis, its barely behind Boot Knife

[spice drum]

It's just called "Rogue Classic", it probably just takes a google search or two

[spice drum]

The extra AP from Cross Dagger and the tiny speed increase is better than GW's proc and dps.

[wise swallow]

do you guys bother using Rup if you have a Feral?

over Env?

[spice drum]

Over envenom, absolutely not. Over eviscerate, I think so

[wise swallow]

thanks

[proven fjord]

+20 AP or +11 agi on legs? which would be better ?

[spice drum]

20 AP

[raven snow]

between these three

which ones should I use for mainhand and offhand?

[ivory siren]

Anyone else been playing around with shiv in PvP? I feel like a fast dagger and shiv helps me a lot.

[white merlin]

Probably Wingblade in Main Hand 'cause it's the slowest / has the highest top-end damage, and Honed in the Offhand 'cause it's the fastest for Deadly Brew procs.

[spice drum]

It just isn't bursty enough, the damage isn't there

[digital mirage]

Wingblade vs Stining Viper main hand?

[wanton steppe]

Does Heavy Dynamite reset our autoattack swing?

[hardy kindle]

Wing + hones

[clear flicker]

is there a SOD group

[steel plover]

did something happen on classic, I do not see any energy tick trackers working anymore

[plucky nymph]

Even the old ones?

[steel plover]

I just logged in and none of my weakauras that had one are working

[chilly ferry]

can you mouse over macro Tease? to taunt another target without swapping off your main target?

[spice drum]

You can mouseover macro it, and it won't change your target from your perspective, but you will drop the combo points on your main target

[chilly ferry]

rough, they really just don't want rouge tank to be functional in a dungeon

[white merlin]

We've got a whopping 3 runes that make tanking as rogue reasonably functional at this point. There's going to be more support later.

Not every one of the "new specs" is going to be perfectly balanced with all the other existing setups at this level.

[coral portal]

iirc, combo points existing on the player vs on the current enemy didn't happen until BC? Possibly later?

so unless they add a rune for it, that will always be a problem in classic

[dark hornet]

What weak aura are y'all rocking for SoD?

[white merlin]

It was definitely later than BC.

A quick google search shows that there was an update in BC to not lose your Combo Points on one target until you added any to a new target, but they were still stored on the enemy until Warlords of Draenor.

[coral portal]

jesus, WoD? It's crazy it took that long XD

[opaque vortex]

got redirect or w/e the fuck in wrath? which helped

[white merlin]

Yeah, I think there was some sort of redirect mechanic. I usually just hit Slice and moved on when I needed to swap, though.

[coral portal]

oh yeeeah, I remember the redirect thing now

[modern elbow]

Would you use Artemis cowl or thr helm for 3 set? I got both tonight

[opaque vortex]

i'm pretty sure 3set sims out ahead

it should anyways

[radiant plover]

I'm doing decent damage as assassination saber slash but I just got meteor shard at 23.
How is mutilate looking at the moment?

[neon cape]

hello 1 agi = 2 ap right ?

[spice drum]

Not great but at the end of the day play what you enjoy

[spice drum]

1 AGI = 1 AP and a small amount of crit and dodge*

[brave mountain]

why does "relentless strikes" not work

unless 20%*5 isn't 100%

but it's 20% per point

[spice drum]

It does work. I've never had 5 combo points not give me 25 energy

[brave mountain]

It frequently gives me 0 energy

with 5 combo points

nvm im dumb

[restive horizon]

Outlaw sabre or Chipped fang in MH with vampiric boot in OH ?

Going Sabre Slash spec, mutilate i didnt really like after trying 2 runs

[spice drum]

Outlaw Sabre

Hits harder, is a sword, swings slower, has +15 AP

Basically better in every way

[restive horizon]

the amount of times boss got turned around during fights

is fucking disgusting with mutilate spec

[spice drum]

With mutilate you don't really care about being behind boss

[restive horizon]

? you go backstab

[spice drum]

? huh

If you're gonna backstab why do you have mutilate

[restive horizon]

backstab talents

right

[spice drum]

But you don't need to be behind for the talents to affect mutilate

[restive horizon]

''increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%''

and mutilate benefits from those talents

[spice drum]

That's just a poorly worded tooltip

You don't actually need to be behind for to affect Mutilate*

[restive horizon]

yea but if you're not behind you dont get the 20% dmg buff do you ?

or do u mean for it to affect mutilate

[spice drum]

You do get the damage buff

[restive horizon]

ah

hmm

[pearl wraith]

Hello there fellow Rogue Enjoyers, i'm currently playing Deadly Brew - Mutilate - Envenom Build on SoD, do i want fast or slow Daggers for this? Thx kindly 🥳👋🏼

[restive horizon]

Alright and, Vampiric boot knife or Blackfathom Ritual Dagger as OH ?

[raven snow]

Chipped tooth and boot knife is probably bis for backstab or mut rogue.

[pearl wraith]

Alrighty, thanks a lot! 🥰👍

Im currently using Doomspike(1.6 speed) MH and Sun-Touched Crescent (1.2 speed) OH

[spice drum]

Boot Knife

[spice drum]

For Mutilate you ideally want two slow daggers but your OH doesn't matter a whole lot. Fast to proc more poisons mostly offsets having a slow dagger for more muti damage

[pearl wraith]

Thank you very much, i'll be on the lookout for a slow MH then, i might grab the Dagger from WSG Revered for the time being as a MH Sidegrade

https://shadowpanther.net/weapons-sod.htm i just found this if anybody is interested

[high galleon]

Is the offhand fist weapon better for OH or sun touched crescent? Haven’t gotten vamp yet

[spice drum]

I would probably just run Backstab until i got 2x Chipped Bite if you reeaaally want to play mutilate

[spice drum]

Check the bis list or sim it homie

[high galleon]

Which bis list do people usually use?

[spice drum]

The one in Simonize's wowhead guide