subtlety

[plush roost]

[dusky yacht]

What were you using instead of pp

[plush roost]

2x finality

So its not too shabby at least

[fossil forge]

wtf bert going brazy

sus

[short radish]

vs 6 subrogue parses

[tribal blade]

i was thinking about trying that

[short radish]

i love meta

[tribal blade]

good to know someone has workshopped it already

[thorny ridge]

More st?

[tribal blade]

def more ST

[fossil forge]

wait im checking pins

did talents

change

[short radish]

[fossil forge]

disaster

[short radish]

[fossil forge]

ah but its finality on st

[tribal blade]

yeah simple swap

for me x2 finality is -1.7% in dslice over PP

and it's a +2% gain on ST

[fossil forge]

imma do some simming later cba rn

[drifting ether]

I was testing both and i like guidon better 🤣

[peak ice]

how do you do the sim thing where you can cross out certain talents

[hazy breach]

Enable combinations

[peak ice]

"generate combinations" ?

[vale pine]

click this

[peak ice]

yep sorry i didnt have a point free so it was just saying like "Please select more than 1 thing"

[golden totem]

Fuu cheating on us and playing the enemy spec

[lilac stag]

Sir we judge keys by interrupts, not dmg.

I do think doing potent for finality is a good approach. Looks like it played to strengths of sub without too much aoe loss.

[peak ice]

There any reason the rotten would sim higher on ST, or just like, weird sim stuff

[hazy breach]

Should be very similar to finality

[peak ice]

yea it is like .1

just wondering

[lilac stag]

We have a number of “whatever” talent choices

[hazy breach]

Yep its fine, you can play rotten if you want

[lilac stag]

PE vs WS

[hazy breach]

But might aswell play finality as its better if theres ever more than 1 target

[peak ice]

yea

[tribal blade]

what eleem said

this raid tier is never only 1 target

[lilac stag]

watches on lura

[peak ice]

salad man feels single target

[tribal blade]

hehe you reminded me i need to set up DS

to test it out

[tribal blade]

2nd boss is much more pure ST than saladbar i think

[lilac stag]

Depends how fast your blobs die

[peak ice]

yeahh true true

[lilac stag]

Vora is ST

[peak ice]

yea i dont really cleave the bugs

[lilac stag]

Take add to wall. Kidney shot it. Sit on boss.

[fossil forge]

not even kick warlord smh

[brisk raptor]

In a raid environment like on paladins when there is 2 target cleave outside of dance we use shuriken storm and black powder if talented into potent powder?

[vale pine]

storm + bp with potent powder

[earnest crane]

why my sims are 30k more than last week :I

[lilac stag]

Yes. Conditionals are listed in #subtlety-faq

[vale pine]

we got buffs with reset

[lilac stag]

Not 30k worth.

[paper trail]

Was thinking about that actually, thinking ds is the play on lura? Mby even alleria as Well

[somber sun]

guys is it just me or there is some kind of delay when you press a combo builder after consuming combo points

[lilac stag]

From a pure mental standpoint, no. Alleria nope.

I’m sure at some point someone will post a Lura log

[earnest crane]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/d2871QoQPNXgPexq2FDgNH

it was 178k ish last week

got guideon this week but i dont think its worth smt about 30k

[vestal escarp]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1502605720099749898/image.png

[lilac stag]

How do I put this nicely. hAC is useless.

[hollow spear]

hectic add cleave, the heck?

[earnest crane]

oh sry

yea

got it

[lilac stag]

What fight are you trying to sim?

[earnest crane]

dungeon slice

[hollow spear]

so the 30k come from comparing different sims? or did you sim hectic add cleave last time, too?

[lilac stag]

well run dslice sim, but it’s not great for sub.

follow the general gearing of 700/800 haste. Put more into mastery than crit. Some vers is fine.

[drifting ether]

Deslice is shit to sim, do 5 or 8t imo

[lilac stag]

our gearing in general is pretty straight forward

you can screw around with talents but you’re going to need to run those through ST as well

and figure out what balance you want.

[drifting ether]

Ya exactly that run 1t and 5t when you sim and try have a balance can’t be fully st or fully pad

[lilac stag]

a lot people also get way too hung up on mastery/crit right now.

the struggles of going from

to get haste breakpoint

[drifting ether]

Only cooked thing was people’s gear was cooked since priority changed, I think it set subs average ilvl lower than others

[hazy lichen]

whats best team comp for sub rogue in keys

[lilac stag]

Nah. rogue in general is lower ilvl. We spent 80 crests others didn’t have to on a second weapon upgrade. Also depending how much you sat on raid prog your vault rewards lower.

[red flame]

Personally I’m a big fan of Warr + Sham + Monk

& then ig hunter or something

To benefit from phys comp

[lilac stag]

brm, resto sham, warrior, Druid

swap the druid out for UH

best comp for rogue won’t necessarily be best comp with rogue.

[hazy lichen]

brm is brewmaster?

[fallow ingot]

2nd stack of finality give crit more value or ?

[red flame]

How big of a difference do you think Vers buff would be in that comp vs a hunter to benefit from BShout + Mystic Touch?

[lilac stag]

I want the res.

[red flame]

Yk thats valid actually

[hazy lichen]

rn we running prot warr, feral, mw , uh , sub is that good or do we need rsham

[red flame]

Skyfury is pretty big

[lilac stag]

skyfury is big but it won’t stop you

Your warrior also angry not having it

[red flame]

Real af

[lilac stag]

even as prot

[sacred jewel]

why not guardian, resto, arms, rogue +1

[red flame]

Anything with sub + warr + monk + sham is fine

[sacred jewel]

with how big guardians are right now

[hazy lichen]

our healer doesnt wanna swap off mw

[red flame]

MW is great too

[hazy lichen]

and our tank doesnt want to play meta lol

[somber sun]

holy chad

[lilac stag]

figure out how to make your comp work. Critcake does it every season.

[hazy lichen]

he mains bm

but swapped to warr cause he said he doesnt like to push keys as meta

[sacred jewel]

swapping just out of spite

[red flame]

If you run sub + warr + sham + monk those 3 have a bit of room to swap around to their preferences

Warr can tank or dps
Monk can do any of the 3
Sham can dps or heal

In general that’s a v solid comp

[sacred jewel]

glad to see all three rogue specs in mdi yesterday

[hazy lichen]

would enhancement be good

or is it worse than ele

[red flame]

Sham + Warr + Monk

Literally whatever spec to make the comp work for your group

[lilac stag]

Enhancement is stronger than ele right now.

[sacred jewel]

you gotta play/pull around ele ascendance if u wanna make use of ele

[hazy lichen]

would it be worth to drop motw for skyfury

[red flame]

Probably

[hazy lichen]

ik it sims higher for rogue

[red flame]

Druid is more for bres than buff

[hazy lichen]

but vers is vers

[lilac stag]

as long as your UH knows where the res button is

[red flame]

You can always just get cables tho worst case scenario

[lilac stag]

cable suck, especially on melee comp

[red flame]

They do, but cable’s better than no res

If you don’t have a brezzer you obv should have cables

[lilac stag]

back to taking the druid

[red flame]

[lilac stag]

skyfury should be a bigger ST gain. Don’t recall how much it drops off in aoe. Vers is just good for everything.

[red flame]

Skyfury is prob big for sub aoe I’d imagine

[hazy lichen]

i think we gonna go prot war , rsham, feral, sub , unholy

[red flame]

Sounds solid

Dk is great too

[hazy lichen]

is sub good in high keys

or is it gapped hard by sin and outlaw

[red flame]

Sin is better than sub for higher keys

Bc shit way outlives sub burst + survives long enough for sin bleeds to absolutely blast

[hazy lichen]

what does more st in m+ build sub or sin

[red flame]

That’s the main issue w sin on lower keys is by the time you have bleeds set up + spread, everything is dead or halfway dead

[hazy lichen]

because our aoe will prob be fine with unholy and feral

[red flame]

Sub absolutely cranks boss dmg

In M+

lot of bosses I’m doubling other dps

[hazy lichen]

is there a way to see m+ damage stats

[red flame]

I use pretty much the same exact build in M+ as I do in raid tho tbf so maby that’s why

I think the only thing I actually swap is Atrophic for Numbing

Maby something else too but idr

[timid pulsar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

It’s not. We’re swimming in cp and sht stacks. Running a basic 5T 2 mins sim it was all of a 1.2% gain.

Vs the 7% in ST

[red flame]

That’s wild af, figured it woulda been a lot more since Sub loves mastery for aoe/m+ ; especially with PP

But yea makes sense when swimming in cp + sht

[lilac stag]

we’re double finality gamers now. Ethical dmg only.

[red flame]

Where’s the 2nd finality point coming from?

Mb if that’s a dumb question

Brand new pin, ty @hazy breach

[lilac stag]

Drop potent. Ex: #subtlety message

[vale pine]

weaponmaster -> finality

[lilac stag]

you were not taking WM in keys though.

so is drop potent

[red flame]

Word, ty

If I’m understanding the pin correctly, nothing actually changed with WM ; it just wasn’t simming correctly?

Meaning it was never worth, it was just simming incorrectly? Or am I still misunderstanding

[hazy breach]

Correct

[red flame]

dope, ty
Now we just wait for blizz to actually acknowledge our bugs

[timid pulsar]

If we drop PP, what talent are we going for instead?

[hazy breach]

I would not recommend dropping PP for m+

[lilac stag]

2x finality

[red flame]

Is there a rough estimation of the dmg increase of WM->Finality r2 or is it always just gonna be sim-by-sim basis

[timid pulsar]

Just curious, i like my aoe

[lilac stag]

The discussion around it is what I linked above

[hazy breach]

Like 0.5% or something

Very minor

[red flame]

Ty Eleem

[vale pine]

sim went ~1k down

[hazy breach]

Depends a bit on your stats

[vale pine]

but its rly not that big of a diffrence

[lilac stag]

Gatekeeping me from 120k

[timid pulsar]

Soon Dark Brew

[red flame]

I wish they’d just make Dark Brew a passive for sub

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

still 130k on the top sim

[hazy breach]

Idk dark brew is just undercooked. It could be way cooler

[red flame]

Or make it like the 1st pick in the sub tree so you take it default always

[vale pine]

[red flame]

Agreed

Could be way cooler

[hazy breach]

Remove (or lower) the shadow damage amp

[red flame]

But the theme is sub 1000%

[lilac stag]

I’m talking my sim.

[hazy breach]

And have it convert more things or change poison to be better

[timid pulsar]

I liked dark brew when it worked with rapture

[vale pine]

i know

[red flame]

I’d be fine w just the 10% increase to poison app + shadow instead of nature dmg

Fuck the shadow dmg increase

[lilac stag]

just make darkbrew edge of knight, then people will complain when they can’t take it.

[red flame]

That’s a perfectly viable passive imo

[flint parrot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[timid pulsar]

Dark Brew could convert our phys damage to shadow at *** effectivness

[red flame]

When’s the last tier that Dark Brew was actually good or usable

I’m tryna see smt

[timid pulsar]

And give us kyveza aura

[hazy breach]

Technically usable right now

for deathstalker, you can drop 1 point from death perception into dark brew, its like +/- 0

[red flame]

So basically if you hate yourself you can potentially play it

[vale pine]

but this would mean you play deathstalker

[lilac stag]

Eleem is on some kick the last 24 hours out seems.

The quest for 1100

[timid pulsar]

Lowkey yoinking haste gear to reach 1100

Wanna try it out

[red flame]

If I had to figure out how to acquire 400 more haste ima just seppuku atp

700 was bad enough

[hazy breach]

Idk its noticeably better on ST

[timid pulsar]

Is it 1100 haste then mix crit/mastery?

[hazy breach]

Mostly mastery, but realistically whatever you can

[timid pulsar]

Cool, im going to send some recrafts later and give it a go

Not at all viable in m+ im guessing

Not at my computer ftm

[hazy breach]

Correct, its for ST

[warm marlin]

it would be great if my 287 character were physically able to acquire 1100 haste to play it

[hazy breach]

Yep

[fossil forge]

The 1100 haste quest

It is doable though

[hazy breach]

Engineering crafted items is the easiest way of getting it

But wasting crests feelsbadman

[fossil forge]

I cant more crestdebt…

[warm marlin]

my character is so genuinely doomed

our early season craft sandbag tech was goated for most of prog but i forgor about the myth crest achievement

[hazy breach]

I genuinely think the myth crest achievement is dumb, i hate that i feel punished for not having a second geared character

[warm marlin]

I used 3 different alts to get discounts on main this tier

and I should have maintained a 4th to convert down myth crests for the hero achieve early on

[vale pine]

+1, the crest stuff feels scuffed asf

[fossil forge]

Definitely doing this next tier on god

[hazy breach]

Like the discount should be in the .5/.7 patch when they uncap crests or something

[keen dome]

I like the change to how we spend crests, but the achievements are dumb

[warm marlin]

ye my split alt will just be convert down crest guy

[keen dome]

1000% this

It'd benefit everyone

[fossil forge]

Char is cncr doomed after though

[warm marlin]

ye split alt is perfect guy for it

use him and abandon him lmao

[fossil forge]

Xd

[warm marlin]

then gear it up after uncap for next tier

[hazy breach]

Like i get why the achivement exists, so playing alts feels better. But i feel like when you just ultra grief your alts to empower your main its gotta go

[warm marlin]

it should really just work on slots that your characters who have the achievement have upgraded

[keen dome]

Small steps, I guess. Maybe with 12.1 they'll refine it some more..

[hazy breach]

Atleast, but even then

[warm marlin]

you can still giga maintain an alt to also get myth achievement but it will be hard without raid gear

I am just sad it doesnt apply to crafts

[keen dome]

That'd be neat

[hazy breach]

And crafts wasting crests is also not great

Why does myth 1 and hc 5 even overlap

It should be myth 1 at hc 6

[warm marlin]

like im actually full juiced on this for outlaw but I forgor about myth achieve and didnt upgrade my crafts earlier

and now look at how cooked it is

2 full weeks of just upgrading crafts

[lilac stag]

The real key is just don’t play rogue

Enjoy a 2H user

Never look back

[warm marlin]

dont get me started on being down 80 crests every tier

[lilac stag]

Be free

[warm marlin]

i officially asked guild about swapping to flex dps yesterday

its coming

[lilac stag]

on god we should just craft a heroic weapon.

Save the 80 mythic

[warm marlin]

yes, i did this tier

my sub set is still playing 272 hunt dagger

[lilac stag]

or just get rid of hunt and use 2x arcano next tier

[hollow spear]

What are the odds that there's some optimisation left in the tank for ds?

[hollow spear]

How does your guild define "flex dps"? I am also considering moving to greener/differently coloured pastures, at least for one patch.

[hazy breach]

Not sure theres some ingame ones, but i did find more dps in sims by making it pretty much never DN without apex

Its sims like 4.5% higher than trickster in my profile now, will probably push it this weekend

[warm marlin]

generally pick a main based on early tuning/what looks needed but maintain other classes and be ready to swap

[hollow spear]

Oh okay, it already moved from 2,5% to 3,04% recently. Do you know what caused that? Or was that prepatch?

[hazy breach]

Idk what fuus sheet has

[warm marlin]

our primary flex healer mains pres, but swapped to a nearly equal ilvl mw for paladins and then disc for alleria onwards for example

[vale pine]

to have a less noticable diffrence

[hollow spear]

Sounds like a lot of work haha

[vale pine]

they did overlap even more before

midnight buffed mythic gear track more or less

and nerfed normal one

[warm marlin]

eh a lot of the times these sorts of characters can come in and be ready very very quickly

[hollow spear]

It was at 2,52% a couple of days ago, I believe. Now it sits at 3,04%, which you will bring to 4,5% with your push.

[warm marlin]

you have hero achieve on main already, then getting to 276 is free and easy with a bit of key grinding, then you come to myth reclear that week and pick up the usual slop that people don't want as much anymore

maybe a boe

[hollow spear]

I guess if your guild sees the benefit of having these types of characters and supports the gearing efforts, it can work

[vale osprey]

Yeah and with the hero crest achieve being op as it is, you can get a guild group spamming 10-12s and bring your other DPS and often overtake main

[vale pine]

3%, but i haven't checked if there is more stat adjustments for the wm change
If you have a DN optimization localy, could push it higher too

[vale osprey]

Yeah if it's not collaborative it's cringe

[normal wadi]

whats the name of the jumpercables to res?

[warm marlin]

i watched these characters from this flex healer hit 90 and by next reset were higher ilvl than some mains due to various shenanigans

you can make better choices with crafts etc. when its later in the tier

[hollow spear]

Crazy

[vale osprey]

We are only required to have 1 char, and a split alt for first 2 weeks of heroic, but like most of my guild are still on degen hours playing 5-6 chars so usually just jump in those keys

[hollow spear]

Good choices and crafts are two things that don't fit in the same sentence

At least not on my main

[vale osprey]

Yep, with myth achieve on main you can get an alt to higher ilvl in 1-2 resets with some decent coins and a fukton of keys for crests

[warm marlin]

oh yeah at this point with myth achieve its dumb

this is my dk's third reset and he would have overtaken my main in ilvl if i didnt do some trolling with my coins

and i got it a week later than most due to rogue debuff

[vale osprey]

Yeah I get myth achieve next week on rogue, and am leveling my DK now to just chill gear it, but should be speedy

[normal wadi]

anyone know?

[hazy breach]

Soul link

[normal wadi]

thank you

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure the tww ones still work too

[quaint lodge]

sub rogue st in keys is kinda banging this patch

[vale pine]

great that you enjoy it

[somber sun]

thank you for speaking with devs fuu

im finally getting invited

[hexed wave]

yes i’m pumping as sub, literally using everything from wowhead thanks @vale pine

[vale pine]

nice, if you have any questions, just ask

[stoic carbon]

just did like 250k dps to the first AA pull as sub as i tried out, is there a problem if ur too far away from mobs that it wont hit but a part of them?

"problem"

[surreal orbit]

This 💯 was me I started maining warrior this expac as a new trial for a mythic guild and fucked up crests along the way. Like a month ago I decided to try rogue and blasted it to 90, got some insane loot luck and I’m only 2 ilvl off my war now and I’m still holding myth crests

[stoic carbon]

or is that how it works

i was trying to enjoy my life far away but think i inted my dmg

[worn sequoia]

Make sure you are positioned so BP is hitting everyone and you still need to be auto attacking an add

[lilac stag]

We are not unholy dk. You need to be in range

[stoic carbon]

ye thought i could chill this one as sub a bit off

think that cucked me

[hazy breach]

You really want to be in melee to keep proccing shadow techniques

[sacred gull]

Blade flurry cleaves from you like black powder, and secret tech cleaves from your target

[worn sequoia]

For reference, 282ilvl in a 15 I’m bursting 800-900k and at the end of that pull I’m evening out at around 500-600

[somber sun]

[dense geode]

are augs still the tankiest class in the game

[vale pine]

think DK is

[hazy breach]

No

[vale pine]

<insert always has been meme>

[neon frigate]

In SD when do you use shuriken storm and when to use the ST builder?

[haughty mural]

Based

[hazy breach]

#subtlety-faq message

[vale pine]

start using storm on 4 targets, but as eleem linked, guides or the faq have you covered

[drifting ether]

Chuck a marker on the tank and literally stack on him, the pull gets hectic and you can’t see shit

[upper narwhal]

Devourer is up there with tankiest classes rn

Actually immune to rot damage I swear

[stoic carbon]

Cant really find a comment on that, but do i remember correctly that after shadow blades, you want to back to back dance even tho Secret technique isnt up?

and then the final SD came up somehow to lign with ST

[hazy breach]

!blades

[wicked jolt]

Trickster Shadow Blades Optimization:
During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back. This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

[stoic carbon]

nice

[iron imp]

Wait I thought we were holding until 2 seconds before Sectec is off CD, Dance/Evis, then Sectec for supercharge. When did that change?

[gilded ferry]

this is the threshold for tuning? goddamn

[warm marlin]

just a hypothesis from previous seasons

[onyx rock]

Hello. I was wondering if someone can answer a question. During my opener. I have been hitting shadowstrike from stealth, then secret technique at max combo points. Then shadow strike, eviserate, shadow strike, eviserate, eviserate, backstab, eviserate. I have been ignoring the combo point return for the first few attacks to get in extra showstrikes. Does this sound anywhere close to ideal.

[dusky yacht]

Thanks fuu

I won’t ping tho

[onyx rock]

I did fail to mention. I am using shadow blades at the start of it.

Have not played sub rogue for many years so learning all over again

[vale pine]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  If all of the above are true, use cast a Shadowstrike / Shuriken Storm (even if on full cp).

[vale pine]

is one optimization you can do after secret

[upbeat sorrel]

chat what dungeons is wound poison used this season

[vale pine]

think you would never use wound for an entire dungeon

but rather small parts

anything mobs heal up, its fine to use

[wet pelican]

Sorry just to confirm, when it says dance is up does that mean it’s active or the cooldown is ready

[vale pine]

it means dance is active

[wet pelican]

(Assuming the former)

Ty

[vale pine]

it is a checklist

you essentially

secret

strike

then go over the checklist

and see if you want to do another strike

[wet pelican]

Ah ok, I’m finally a little bit comfortable to optimize now so I’m rereading everything

Also outside of dance shuriken with 2 mobs to build?

FAQ said that and I wanted to make sure that’s correct because for some reason that feels wrong

[onyx rock]

There was a video I had watched and it was not clear about the inportance about ancient arts so I have been making sure to shadowstrike 2 times so I use the buff some at least. What made mw question it is the combo pint refund and if it was more important to eveiserate with the refunded points or ustilize the ancient arts buff you get with shadowstrike.

Wow I cant type. Sorry

[vale pine]

you essentially optimize for your 2nd finisher

when you use dance, you get two supercharger uses

[tight fjord]

are you guys running leech or avoidance in 19+

[vale pine]

the first one will be on secret technique always

the 2nd one on a regular finisher

the optimization basically plays inefficient combo point wise to gain damage there

only if AA is not up

you would use a 2nd shadowstrike to get it for this finisher

it is not worth to do after that, because you have less multipliers

you also almost guarantee to have the sht stacks by then, because we stop using finishers shortly before secret techniques comes off cd

(like 3-5 secs before)

which basically means, all you have to do is look if your aa is up

you can track it on the cooldown manager

and if it isn't up, do the 2nd strike

[onyx rock]

Ok. Ty so much. Really appreciate the help

My damage has been decent but I thirst for more. Lol

[vale pine]

👍 adjust your talents out of wm should already help a bit

then, depending on content you do

[upbeat sorrel]

also i noticed lately sometimes when i get black bars i dont get the combo points refunded after my finisher

any idea why

[vale pine]

for raid, a lot of damage gain comes from playing your cooldowns well and depening on boss padding on adds

for m+, a common problem i see is people holding onto cooldowns too long

most of the time its better to "send" than to "hold"

[vale pine]

!premed

[wicked jolt]

• The first Ancient Arts clone cannot proc while Premeditation is up, as you are not expending any Shadow Technique stacks. This is not really a bug, just an unfortunate interaction.
• There is also a bug that makes it so while Premeditation is active you cannot get a refund nor spawn the clone from Ancient Arts 3. (This does not matter much numerically, but feels weird)

[vale pine]

the 2nd part

[onyx rock]

This will give away my age but the last time I played rogue. Combat still existed

[keen cobalt]

https://tenor.com/view/sure-grandpa-let's-get-you-to-bed-gif-3440862259299766707

[undone echo]

hey guys should i be using crit flask ?

[onyx rock]

Lol

[vale pine]

i came back to wow in wod

for everyone who started in legion

reminder that DH now exists for longer than it hasn't

[keen cobalt]

that makes me feel old

[tight fjord]

ready to brick some keys

[vale pine]

haha absolutely, its a moment of "feel old yet"

[onyx rock]

Umm. Been playing wow since 2004 and I was not a child. Lol

[vale pine]

to be fair, there is so much stagnation in gaming

the last 10-15 years saw no significant improvement in graphical fidellity

(or gameplay)

[onyx rock]

I need to start a tank academy. Our current boys and girls need some help on the basics. I tanked for 20 years

[vale pine]

oh interessting

tanking has changed quite a bit

[upbeat sorrel]

ahh i see

wouldnt be rogue without bugs

[gilded jungle]

So we are dropping weapon master all together now because a bug?

fun stuff.

Smol indie company.

[upbeat sorrel]

bug fixes are only for classes that people play!

[onyx rock]

Yup, thats blizz. I guess there qa team is a skeleton crew and they dont intend to fix that

[gilded jungle]

Oh, yeah that's right. Maybe we shut down the discord like the paladins did?

[upbeat sorrel]

they're busy working on real classes like DK

[steel sierra]

Do we have any info yet on the turbo boost on Tuesday? Does it cost myth crests? Do we just slap on an item and boom 298?

[upbeat sorrel]

from what i read

its gonna be like catalyst charges

[paper trail]

The talent adjustion in pins is only for or?

[upbeat sorrel]

it drops from end game content after you unlock it

[upbeat sorrel]

the first portion is for trickster

so you take finality

[tidal solstice]

oh for fucking fucks sake

cant have shit in azeroth

[hexed wave]

best use it on a wep top right?

also something change? we using diff talents

?

[tidal solstice]

yep on offhand

[vale pine]

haha yes

[vale pine]

yes

[gilded jungle]

Surely blizz will fix it right?

[vale pine]

to be fair, i don't mind it

[gilded jungle]

I mean more burst tho

[vale pine]

the bugs i am concerned about are gameplay breaking

[gilded jungle]

Yeah thats true.

[vale pine]

the rest is something that can be fixed with tuning

unlucky for us

gameplay breaking bugs are also not fixed often

[gilded jungle]

Yeah that one of the more common issue with blizz.

Its happened to a few classes this expen.

[onyx rock]

Elvui is not showing my supercharged combo points. Is there fix in elvui or a better combo point addon?

[civic lava]

It's not a unitframe addon, bit AyijeCDM , shows it. I think Unhalted unitframe should also show it but it's another unitframe addon altogether, might need to disable parts of elvui so both can work

[golden totem]

Sensei does it

[civic lava]

Most of CDM addon should show it, Blizzard ui shows it as well.

[onyx rock]

Awesome. Ty all.

[gilded jungle]

Cooldown manger centered and AyijemCDM

[tame notch]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[barren ember]

whats goin on with the sim

I stopped simming as often, since it was always going for barely enough haste to get 2nd tectek in, and i wanted bit more

and now i simmed it

and while i would be at 659 haste anyway

it suggests haste bottle vs 2 targets, and vs single target haste bottle is suddenly only 0.3 % dps loss?

[hazy breach]

If you dont have guidon you need around 800 to get 2 sectechs fully in blades

[barren ember]

i have mythic guidon

and before that heroic, and before that champion :p

i also simmed with bloodlust, and shaman buff as always idk

[vale osprey]

You still want like 684-700

Just ignore it, get that haste, use mast flask, press buttons well, vibe

[hazy breach]

Idk link the sim, sounds weird

[barren ember]

i mean the sim randomly suggests 824 haste

which it never did

and i found 633 haste + hero guidon totally fine, but 700 is pretty chill to play too

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ticfg6G6L98VraLGFk1nHv

[abstract cosmos]

shout out to rogue playing in mdi holy

[chrome palm]

https://x.com/VSpeedd/status/2053075511971086441

Speed (@VSpeedd)

“And the rogue was there too…”
This is how it feels playing rogue in M+ or Raid.
You don’t bring anything to your team, no raid buff, no utility, there’s class that always deals better with mechanics like hunter on Beloran.
As rogue you just exist as flower pot in apartment

X · May 9, 2026, 11:32 AM

[abstract cosmos]

i saw that

we do me a flower pot

[gilded ferry]

thats sad as fuck if proves to be true in the future

[vale osprey]

6 min, 2 boss, weekly sim, what you cooking up?

[onyx rock]

I installed sensei and the superchrged combo points show up perfectly. Setup was easy. Ty

[alpine wraith]

big flower pot

[regal orchid]

Quick Questions am I having a stroke or is Evasion shit in raid

[hazy breach]

It is indeed shit, period

[regal orchid]

lmaoo

[shrewd lantern]

its only really a thing in pvp

sometimes

[hazy breach]

It only works on a handful of things, and its quite random whenever it does

[shrewd lantern]

i say sometimes since the most opressive classes

are usually casters

[hazy breach]

Besides stuff like the fixate in pit, where its pretty reasonable to expect it to work

[shrewd lantern]

mages are gaslighting again though

pretending they aren't near the best

[hazy breach]

Ye like unholy

[shrewd lantern]

dk players make me tempt risking a chat ban

on the regular

[gilded ferry]

whats the command of the evasion/cloak interaction again?

we had a list

with the mages

something like that

[normal wadi]

the boss on seat with 3 enemies, am i using eviscerates or black powder? my damage is really poor

[gilded ferry]

black powder

[normal wadi]

what about bosses with 2 instead of 3, bp also?

im m+ talent build

[lilac stag]

#subtlety-faq

[vale pine]

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[gilded ferry]

its bp on two targets with bp talent as well

[hazy breach]

I hadnt realized you were talking about 2 target cleave, but specifically on 2 targets the extra haste can be a bit nice to not have to storm 3 times in between each finisher outside of dance.
But generally i wouldnt recommend the haste flask, as you probably dont even want to spec into potent powder and instead stay with 2x finality like here in this sim
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nKqsfdrotiJ82AfxfSZW6D

[gilded ferry]

lmao, evasion did not work for shit during manaforge as well

[vale pine]

evasion is nice sometimes

if it works

[hazy breach]

Yeah subs 3 target is quite poor, it is what it is

[gilded ferry]

so, essentially, its one talent node between st and aoe build

[vale pine]

yes

[gilded ferry]

that seems balanced

[vale pine]

which is also nice

means you don't trade off much for aoe

[radiant swift]

anyone played sub on paladins? is it worth now or still a sin angle?

[gilded ferry]

forgetting to swap out that talent node before a m+ gives us the excuse of "nah man im doing prio to bosses "

[vale pine]

its a bench angle

for rogue

i am still salty that certain individuals justified the week one nerf of subtleties cleave as a good thing

[radiant swift]

same but for some reason these guilds all bring one

dunno how up2date archon is but the sub dmg didnt look that nice

[vale pine]

the fight is not too hard

[radiant swift]

sin was kinda fine'ish?

[vale pine]

so guilds don't need to be stupid about what to bring

[radiant swift]

since we talking about paladins

how can i not get double silenced by that one boss?

[vale pine]

paladins

[radiant swift]

im already walking away and still get sileneced

• i could imagine if u have dots on him its even worse?

[radiant swift]

i mean its almost middle of pack right

[frosty ravine]

sub ST in keys is ... goodge

[radiant swift]

just like 15k less and more

[vale pine]

subtlety burst is good

[frosty ravine]

I do 100K on bosses

[vale pine]

single target depends on who you compare it to

but ye, its within one of the better single target specs

[frosty ravine]

which raid buffs are best for sub?

[somber sun]

100k only if sham in group lowkey

[frosty ravine]

didn't have sham

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[frosty ravine]

last boss magister

[somber sun]

I mean yeah

idk man

did 100k per boss pre patch too

[frosty ravine]

I'm not the best of course. Just enjoyed high st

[somber sun]

no bro

im not flaming or anything

just weird that my damage didnt move

[vale pine]

i mean, cleave is our main weakness

[frosty ravine]

yeah small packs are painful

[modest citrus]

i feel weird that i chose this spec cause people put it towards the lower tier and it actually super strong on single target and some groups.

[vale pine]

the problem is

raid buffs matter

[somber sun]

+++

[vale pine]

if you don't bring a good utility to your group, you need to do noticably more damage than competing specs

DK is played because its:

• Immortal
• Has Grip
• Does insane damage

[frosty ravine]

true. Hypothetically, what raid buff would you suggest for rogue?

crit chance? maybe?

[vale pine]

e.g. top 20 keys atm

you have 2 keys without dk

[vale pine]

I don't know, hunter got 3% damage amp, so something at least similar in impact

[frosty ravine]

could we make a post and boost it all to maybe get some attention from bliz? something like the recent post pinned in outlaw channel

[vale pine]

it got a lot of attention

because rogue was benched in the wfr

it was obviouse enough for streamers and big guilds to highlight it

basically, the weak-ish tuning of rogue

allowed the issue to be so visible

a blind person would have seen it

and this means it got a lot of public exposure everywhere

[real nexus]

So invisible for blizzard then

[vale pine]

na, think thats

kind of the place they can't ignore it anymore

they ignored the issue for 5+ years now

just to be clear

ignoring issues is what most companies do, its normal and common practice

you only have limited ressources and want to spend them on what is seen as most valuable

[frosty ravine]

I was thinking maybe being more vocal with some detailed breakdown of how useless atrophic is in practice along with the added dps by other classes ahead of 12.0.7 might increase our chances

rogue also being one of the least played classes should be a useful stat

[vale pine]

rogue is the least played for a while now

and it roots in the terrible solo play and leveling experience

thats also highlighted 100s of times in extensive posts

leveling experience did not change so far

unless thats fixed, it will be rly hard to convince people to play rogue

[glass kelp]

really has just not been a functioning class until max level for so much of the the game

[hallow mortar]

are you guys using that EXboss? is it any good

[vale pine]

whats exboss?

[sinful zephyr]

in classic rogue was one of the most popular classes for solo play but all those skills, while flavourful, have no impact in the game as it is now

[upbeat cradle]

i like leveling as rogue

[abstract cosmos]

im good friends with monksea great tank

[upbeat cradle]

i like stealthing through stuff

[hallow mortar]

from latest wowhead post

[vale pine]

we use northern sky raid tools

[hallow mortar]

its more like for m+

[gilded jungle]

Exwind is soild.

Exboss doesnt work well imo

[vale pine]

oh interessting

i still use bigwigs

don't think you rly need more than that

[hazy breach]

If wowhead posted about them then theyll probably be bricked soon anyway by blizzard

[gilded jungle]

^

[vale pine]

haha true

[glass kelp]

i dont prog mythic but barring that, none of the bosses need addons really

[hazy breach]

Like i think these tools are good and helpful, but i just cant be arsed getting used to them when i know blizzard is just gonna remove them

[frosty ravine]

the way exwind works is sometimes based on predictions. I have seen inconsistencies. Sometimes it calls stuff, sometimes doesn't

[hallow mortar]

i know about it for a while as most pusher i see on stream use it for some time

[real nexus]

I will ask one of those questions that probly people ask 1000000x per day already but still, which rogue spec is currently best for m+ (lets say 12+)?

[frosty ravine]

as a normie who played all 3, they are really all good. It's just the playstyle you enjoy the most. It sounds cliche but really they are all very close

[vale pine]

Oh i see

these addons walk a fine line

between improving on the baseline and doing things that are explicitly not allowed

[alpine wraith]

yea but you know

it would not be as fun for blizz

to brick the addons then

[real nexus]

That sounds way too much l ike "play whatever you want" which i dont like as answer dxD

[gilded jungle]

I wouldnt put it past them to try to brick Exwind tho

[vale pine]

I mean

it seems the WFR already did a LOT of things they did not want addons to do

so, very hard to predict how things change in the future

[somber sun]

if you can read mandarin

[real nexus]

Yeah but you know WFR players are priviliged over normal casual players xD

[somber sun]

then sure go for it

[vale pine]

They have the benefits of being in a power position

most interactions you face in games or irl are about power

[frosty ravine]

yeah this policy only applies to the rest of us 😄

[vale pine]

what i mean is

if blizz heavy handenly handles it

they create a lot of negative feedback

thats why we are "allowed" to still have certain addon functionality

even tho its clerly against their intention

the wfr can exploit this power position

on the other side, this can also work in blizz favor

where they are the one in the power position when it comes to content creation

so youtubers/etc are incentivised to talk very favorable about the game, even if critique is more than warranted

[frosty ravine]

makes sense

[vale pine]

tho we likely see more addon restrictions with future patch

*patches

because in the end, there is a certain internal view on what should work and what shouldn't

and the end result should be more aligned with this

we will see tbh

the benefits of the addon chanegs so far haven't been obviouse

so we could also see a return to a more open enviroment

[grim wasp]

Money comes from casuals no wfr players

[vale pine]

thats true

but attention comes from the top end

[grim wasp]

If you take the pvp scene since it does no money its just neglected.

[vale pine]

i mean

streamers/youtubers are mostly not casual players

which bring attention to the game

[abstract cosmos]

anyone tried deathstalker in raid yet

[grim wasp]

No clue never cared much about wfr players but there is a reason why they sell boosted run

[vale pine]

e.g. a lot of new players now go to classic

due to how popular it was outside of the hard core crowd

[grim wasp]

https://tenor.com/view/lost-ark-money-no-money-gif-25702864

[vale pine]

but classic is very short lived

[abstract cosmos]

i loved playing classic with my friend

probs most fun i had in a while

[grim wasp]

Classic is nostalgic and there is no update

[vale pine]

classic might be the entry for many to the game now

[grim wasp]

Playing classic now is less hardcore imo

[vale pine]

retail needs to keep players attention tho

which is why you see more systems designed for csauals

[grim wasp]

Like mythic plus

[abstract cosmos]

if classic+ comes out and its actually rlly good then i see theres gonna be a tide coming

[grim wasp]

Mythic plus is very good casual content

Compared to raiding simple to make a team organise and plan around

[vale pine]

delves are

hunts

the mini events

world quests

[void ocean]

Have u heard sir about meta, the last boss of m+

[vale pine]

thats csasual content

[grim wasp]

Same as mythic plus for me

[vale pine]

housing ^^

[dusky yacht]

I think it's also a community attitude problem in retail. There's way too much fake elitism, meta-based exclusion or gatekeeping, intentional misinformation, lack of patience for any kind of learning, ..

The treatment my girlfriend has been getting as a new player sometimes has been nothing short of terrible, and I'm actually teaching her a lot of things that most new players will simply not get. Good luck finding accurate and reliable sources on things. There's a billion videos all over the place and 90% of them are partially inaccurate at best.

[vale pine]

mythic+ is hard content comapred to that

[grim wasp]

Hard is fine. Time sink is different

The amount of commitment to do mythic plus is not same as 40 man raid

[vale pine]

To be fair, most communities (like ours) tries to be as welcomming as possible

but ye

mmorpgs expect a certain knowlage from players

and people have no patience for newcommers

[grim wasp]

Of course if you hitting +20 keys back to back non stop it is not casual content

[vale pine]

even doing 10s is not casual content anymore

the majority don't raid heroic or mythic

[dusky yacht]

This was true to a certain extent, yet as a returning player, I was repeatedly treated as if I was stupid for asking questions and being told "it's easy lol" by people who haven't stopped playing Rogue for 10 years.

Others were infinitely helpful, like yourself, don't get me wrong, but which interaction sticks around the most in a human's mind? I think you know the answer

[grim wasp]

For a simple guy like me i run 7 dung in a week and 1 more on sunday im capped could do a high key per day. Content is hardcore but i could play it casual

[vale pine]

i think some systems are also designed very poorly in that reguard

[grim wasp]

I am a retuning player too i had to bind backstab on 2 keybinds there is nothing to press

[dusky yacht]

Don't get me wrong, I'm in a very happy place right now with my guild, I'm raiding mythic, I'm improving my parses every week basically, and so on..

[vale pine]

i am one of the few people who does not absolutely love and sugar cote the reworked crafting system

[dusky yacht]

But to say it has been an easy coming back to wow experience, holy shit.

It took me over an hour to figure out the crafting system. Call me stupid for that if you like but wtf is this stuff. I think a lot of people don't even know the answers themselves sometimes.

[vale pine]

like

we had people who struggled

understanding crafted gear pieces when they got introduced

[dusky yacht]

My issues were not with binds

[vale pine]

people who mythic raid and are def. not casuals

so like

if a mythic raider has struggles with a system

[void ocean]

Its stupid that we had all this simplification and still have 150 talent trees and im gonna die on this hill

[vale pine]

how is the epxerience for a new player?

[dusky yacht]

I played arms warrior 3v3 top 5% EU in tbc and wotlk, I had 32+ commonly used binds.

The issue is with the systems, the lack of in game explanation, the lack of willpower of most players to explain anything anymore, lack of patience from people, ...

[vale pine]

crafting is also very complicted

like you need to find a new vendor

you need to know what to craft

then need to know how crest and embellishments, etc work

and also need to know how quality works

and private vs. public orders

[dusky yacht]

The crafting orders I was like uhh excuse me, then I crafted my first item and it wasn't max rank, I was like how tf, then they fixed the quality thing so you can select which quality minimum, okay thanks but too late

[vale pine]

on top of that

[dusky yacht]

Like these are little things

[vale pine]

crafting costs an insane amount of money for a new player

[dusky yacht]

And I'm stubborn, I kept going, but for a lot of people.. I don't blame them for being like "well screw this, I'mma go on FF14 and flirt with catgirls and never die in dungeons"

[vale pine]

guides suggest

new players

[void ocean]

Remember when we had proc chance for R5

[vale pine]

to byu one or two wow tokens

to get money

[void ocean]

Ud pay like 3-4 orders

[vale pine]

so we are in a timeline, its expected to spend 40$ on top of

[dusky yacht]

Yep, this was also a massive thing

[vale pine]

60-90$ for an xapc

with an 13$/month subscription fee

[dusky yacht]

I had to farm herbs and ores like a madman and it was start of season, and then I had messed up my knowledge points, no reset, druid bots everywhere, .. bro..

[vale pine]

Crafting was nicer when it was simple

the talent trees are placebo

its just a trend in the gaming space to emulate progression

you get something new every level up

so you get positive feedback

more frequent low reward keeps people engaged

its very much a mobile game development strategy

which is now part of mmos

[void ocean]

Its frustrating when u r a new player to understand all interactions between spells and talents

[vale pine]

To be fair

[void ocean]

With so many talents

[vale pine]

all you need to do now is to go on wowhead

[dusky yacht]

Another thing I don't understand and still don't: I'm max skill and everything with full multicraft alchemy flasks and I only make gold when I have concentration, so now I'm just using my concentration for my own flasks and selling an extra here and there for one or two k gold

[vale pine]

and read a rotation guide

(or iv/method)

rotations are simple enough

[dusky yacht]

If you don't have an alt army professions are essentially useless for gold making if it's not gathering and you're not spam gathering

[vale pine]

to just follow some simple rules

[dusky yacht]

The only other solutions are boosting m+ or selling wow tokens.

[vale pine]

its just, that if you want to understand "why"

[dusky yacht]

This is not a good thing for the game.

[vale pine]

you need to read up

[void ocean]

Yes but i like to understand how cookie crumbles

[vale pine]

exactly

and thats where it becomes difficult

but thats unavoidable

wow has a very big scope

even without the talent trees

keep in mind that a lot of things the trees did was just to put baseline stuff into a tree

[void ocean]

Cause understanding helps me better adapt to some unexpected situations

[vale pine]

oh absolutely

[void ocean]

But if we rolled back to like bfs talents

[vale pine]

understanding is better than following instructions

[void ocean]

It would make more sense

[vale pine]

The old talents had problems too

but if we look at it

[ivory egret]

DF S1 was peak

[vale pine]

the new talent trees usually have 1-2 talent setups

the old trees had more combinations you could play

BUT

[void ocean]

Choose a few key aspects of the class and empower it with talents

Simple as that

[vale pine]

the system was immensly neglected

like completely ignored almost

and thats why we never had these option

you locked in one talent combo

[ivory egret]

I do miss more active skills on tree than a thousand passives though

[vale pine]

and never changed

maybe changed 1-2 in m+

[dusky yacht]

Another thing though, I keep hearing that everything is simplified and this and that, but these are perspectives of long-time players. For new players or returning players this is nowhere near simple. Sure it's simple to copy paste a talent tree, but half of the silly questions asked here I've noticed (outside of what stats lol) comes from people who, like me initially, simply don't understand their own talents and take people's word for stuff because it's like bro.. And then you ask those questions and people explode on you for not knowing and they say it's simple.

Yeah, everything is simple, when you already know about it.

[alpine wraith]

dont worry if you can find people asking about talents in between

are my stats good?

is xxx haste good

[vale pine]

Well its a systematic problem

basically

[alpine wraith]

do ineed more crit

[void ocean]

I actually hated active talents, i want all spells to be mine baseline, just let me empower them with talents for particular scenarios

[alpine wraith]

it is a breath of fresh air

[vale pine]

what is simplified is the result

because re-iterating on everything else is too expensive

too much time would be needed to reduce all classes to the baseline

[alpine wraith]

actually many of tricksters and deathstalker's problems could have been solved by just putting an extra button

[void ocean]

I want to have BP, but let me have it stronger for m+

[vale pine]

instead of doing so

blizz just made most talents

simple damage amps

if you look at trees, soo many notes are basically

"you do 1% more dps"

[dusky yacht]

I remember in the past for real though, yeah, there were meta talent builds, of course there were.
But if you changed your spec a tiny bit sometimes it could change everything about what you were doing.

And it would kind of work sometimes at least, like it felt more fun or something idk

[lucid jackal]

Ppl who say wow is an easy game are genuinely out of touch

[void ocean]

Ye but whats the point of having 10 1% increases instead of one 10%

[dusky yacht]

It's talent bloating instead of talent .. Uhh.. I mean find me a word I guess I don't know.

[vale pine]

so wow got simpler, mostly because talents who had gameplay impact got fewer

[void ocean]

They introduced df talent trees to avoid cookie cutter builds but we still had em

[vale pine]

it still remains a complex game with just how many inetractions there are

[lucid jackal]

That was never the intention wdym

[vale pine]

a good example how this worked is slice and dice

[void ocean]

Hell we played tww s3 with one build for everything

[vale pine]

which was intitially a button you press and maintain

then it became sucessively a passive thats just there

you don't rly play around

but even then, you have things like cttc not working on black powder

[empty bobcat]

finally got the alleria neck :3 - can now easily swap a ring to get 800 haste in M+ 🙂

[dusky yacht]

I also noticed that like, now I'm mythic raiding, I understand my class to a decent parse % and whatever right.

But man, when I explain stuff to my new player gf, I catch myself going so fast and rambling out information at her until her brain is literally exploding and then I think to myself "Wait a second.. I haven't even explained half to her.."

And it's honestly not her being stupid imho, it's more like, what even is this game to somebody new.
Last time I was truly new, we were middle 2000s and I was listening to emo music.

[vale pine]

nicu

[void ocean]

Wasnt like the idea to have like more flexibility and use different builds and more flavour and so

We still ended up with 1-2 builds

Sub especially

[vale pine]

haha ye, its best to start out with concepts

and dive into details over time

[lucid jackal]

The idea of the new talent trees were like 3 main things.

[dusky yacht]

Yeah I've learned to do that and also just be like

"Worry about this later"

[vale pine]

like, i learned someone in my guild subtlety before midnight

and using macros and shortcuts

simplifiying the rotation

as much as possible

[lucid jackal]

One, it makes leveling better as every level you are getting "something"

Two, it gives flexability in utility based talents

Three, it can open up tc opportunities of x talent with y stats and z rotation

[vale pine]

actually made the person enjoy the class/spec

[lucid jackal]

Idt anywhere the goals of the talent trees was to "allow people to play anything they want"

Ion said multiple times leading up to df "you can make a shit build we won't stop you"

[void ocean]

Ye but did ppl do it

[vale pine]

the game prevents you from doing so indirectly often

like

you can do it if you rly want

[lucid jackal]

Did people do what?

[dusky yacht]

Yeah my gf is starting to enjoy it, and I encouraged her to start doing her own research and then ask me if she needs more sources and whatever right.

But it's only now and only because she is so stubborn she doesn't want to give up on one day raiding mythic with me or at least "being useful" to me in dungeons. (She says this herself, I honestly don't even give a shit I just want her to have some fun)

It's taken her weeks to even have fun. Before she was just overwhelmed, getting yelled at, scared of making mistakes, confused, ...

[vale pine]

but rly need to put in eeffort

[graceful rock]

No blades build when

[vale pine]

haha ye

i mean blades was initially positioned

so you are forced to take it

it just changed, and you can now skip it

[graceful rock]

Like AR on outlaw is the first node

[void ocean]

Well exactly my point, sure u can click on w/e talents but thats considered trolling

Its not a "flavour" build if u do 30k dps less

[vale pine]

the tress are designed to offer a certain amount of choice

[void ocean]

Its trolling

[vale pine]

but you mostly intuitively take the correct option

[graceful rock]

I’d like to hear the philosophy on what abilities/spells they want in the tree VS baseline

[keen dome]

I would love to hear class design philopshy in general

[graceful rock]

Like why is blades in the tree if your always gonna take it

[keen dome]

But also goremaws

[void ocean]

Like we had ppđ saying "fck ill still take premed", thats flavour for me but its rare

[grim wasp]

I came back didnt play much since legion at all. I tried to find a good mmo but the genre itself is dieing

[graceful rock]

Same with DM and AR on the other specs

[vale pine]

the "play whatever, find weird stuff"

is also not true entirely

like subtlety is a very good example

we had things literally removed from the spec entirely

because blizz did not like the gameplay these options created

[void ocean]

I know

[vale pine]

so there is a optimistic way to view it as a system which gives you endless oppotunities

[void ocean]

As i said we end up with 1-2 dif builds the same we did with bfa talents

[vale pine]

or a realistic, where it is a extremely controlled enviroment

with limited options

[void ocean]

And having lvling more rewarding is ridiculous when u need like one afternoon to lvl up

[vale pine]

I think giving you something every level is great

[urban lion]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

the concept is popular amost all games now

[void ocean]

But u dont even notice

[vale pine]

if you plaed a shooter in the last 3 years or so

you migth realized

[lucid jackal]

The devs said specifically in df they aren't going to stop you making bad builds

[void ocean]

In old wow it was great

[vale pine]

that each ofn them now has a talent tree and exp system

[lucid jackal]

This isn't a problem, any game with a flexable talent tree has this feature

[dusky yacht]

I played FF14 a while back and I was falling asleep while tanking. I literally couldn't die for over half the game. I get that a lot of people feel drawn to that, but man.. Cmon..

[grim wasp]

Talents is like the government you think you have a choice but its always the same thing

[vale pine]

even jump and run games now have it

[void ocean]

But now u have lvl for like 10 mins?

[lucid jackal]

This talent system is nothing like poe, but the poe talent tree doesn't stop you from making a terrible build

[vale pine]

the newest "super mario" game, donkey kong bonanza

has a exp and talent like system

[golden thunder]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dusky yacht]

You have the choice to listen to fuu or suck

[old ravine]

yo what are the haste breakpoints below 650

[dusky yacht]

[void ocean]

I mean u could make shit build with bfa talents as well

[vale pine]

I think it depends on the spec

[void ocean]

Like take nado in st

[vale pine]

e.g. assassiantion had more iteration on talents

and for that reason had multiple tiers you could interchange multiple talents

[lucid jackal]

Yes but this doesn't change the fact that leveling in the old talent system felt boring af to a lot of people because levels didn't give you anything tangible most of the time

[vale pine]

think the old system did not show you new talents gained well

which is also a problem

player feedback is important

[void ocean]

I support that but lvling is dumbed down. Why are we catering something that is an afterthought

[lucid jackal]

Okay so what are you even suggesting

No video game with a talent tree let's you just freeball shit and it works

By definition, when you have 100 nodes to take and you only get 50 points, incorrect choices necessarily have to exist

[grim wasp]

Talents give developers room to tweak stuffs

[warm marlin]

I like the new talent system a lot more

[void ocean]

I just want, since we have like 3 spells now, choose a few important aspects of a class in sertain scenarios and empower it with a few talents

[chrome palm]

i think the new talent system gave insane power creep to classes like dk where half the class tree are defensive nodes and then rogue cant even take the nice talents, like double vanish

it would be nice if they actually tried to make them good

[vale pine]

double vanish was subtlety exclusive, just my 2c

[chrome palm]

instead of being pidgeon holed into taking damage nodes

[void ocean]

Allow me to empower aoe when i need aoe, cleave or st respectively

[warm marlin]

theyve reworked the talents like 4 times since they were introduced

theyve had plenty of times to fix the rogue tree

[lucid jackal]

You can do that in the tree rn. It's just sub cleave is bad

[vale pine]

A lot of the tlaent reworks focused on removing gameplay impact

[chrome palm]

this piece of shit still existing is such an insult

[warm marlin]

this is also how you become worthless in keys forever btw

[vale pine]

subtlety cleave is bad because of taht

*that

[lucid jackal]

^^ literall

[vale pine]

nimble flurry was "this is too difficult"

even tho realistically it was not

because, even if you used evis/bp incorretcly

you wouldn't rly have a big diffrence or punishment

[void ocean]

But with complex trees we suffer from connections, positions, talent gates n stuff

[vale pine]

reguadless

[warm marlin]

assa was a god for most of tww except for the fact that it did literal garbage st without funnel

[vale pine]

this was changed to

[warm marlin]

and if it didnt have funnel it would just be completely doomed

and people hated that

[vale pine]

"use aoe with 2 targets"

[chrome palm]

you may agree, but i think this is great design, same with arms rn

[vale pine]

which simplifies everything

[void ocean]

How many good talents never get taken cause taking em would include taking a few worthless etc

[vale pine]

the consequence is, we are now shit on cleave

[warm marlin]

I do like it and think its interesting

[vale pine]

because cleave is bound to aoe

and our aoe is also not insanely overtuned

[warm marlin]

but if you dont have funnel then its just doomed

its fine with funnel

[chrome palm]

yeah i like the pay off though

of high st vs high funnel classes

[vale pine]

assasisantion got a shitton of exclusive niches

i think having niches is just a bonus

[lucid jackal]

I mean idk. New talent system owns. Idk how this convo happens all the times. Feels mega revisionist sometimes

[warm marlin]

it does own!

[chrome palm]

were the specs this buggy with old talent system

[warm marlin]

i think the only downside is the complexity that blizzard can't deal with

[chrome palm]

feel like new talent system/spec trees have been a nightmare with bugs

[void ocean]

I didnt always hate new talents, they made sense before when we had complex rotations, i dont feel it now

[warm marlin]

and when they nerf specific talents for specs they just swap them and completely nullify a nerf

[vale pine]

idk why we need to bring marxism in a discussion about talents

feels a bit unnessecery

[void ocean]

What 😂

[vale pine]

google what revisionist means^^

[void ocean]

I know what it means

[warm marlin]

revisionist doesnt mean marxist

[void ocean]

Exactly my tho

[grim wasp]

They should just remove talents and have only abilities

[iron imp]

This was always going to be a problem with the DF talent system. Blizzard has more stuff to balance, and with shorter patch cycles they have to rebalance it more often.
In a perfect world the talent system would work correctly all the time and be more engaging that the MoP talents, but we don't live in that world

[warm marlin]

i mean they just started tuning hero talents and aura changes instead which is fine

[vale pine]

revisionism is lterally labled as marxism on wikipedia ^^

[grim wasp]

Talent is an additional useless layer

[warm marlin]

he meant this one

[iron imp]

Hero talents need to go straight to the bin

What a shit systen

[dusky yacht]

I mean I honestly love playing sub right now, for whatever reason after the reswitch from cloud cover, I feel so comfortable now and I'm doing good DPS, and I feel like I can still improve and get a new pc and it will help etc etc..

At the same time, I feel like it's all always solved and competing feels like I'm competing a bit with people abusing parsing in some way shape or form and then feel pressured to do it myself so "most" people think I'm great, as opposed to anyone ever seeing the shit I do to carry the raid. I'll happily kidney shot fear adds on chim if it means we get the kill, but then it doesn't even feel that great because what if I just parsed bro? Lmao.

[warm marlin]

or the fictional one

[iron imp]

"Evergreen" my ass

[void ocean]

Revisionism is any gaslighting when it comes to history, wtf

[warm marlin]

actually it was just the fictional one

but its a general term ive never heard it be associated with marxism before

[void ocean]

"this is how it actually happened" is a credo of revisionism, I believe

[iron imp]

This is because parse culture is toxic as fuck and the current raid is designed in such a way that "Do big number" and "Help team win" are near polar opposites

Which is not really a blizzard issue, but turbo sucks

[void ocean]

I mean yes and no, imho

[warm marlin]

this raid is especially bad with spawning random slop adds that have 0 hp and die instantly, so any damage on them is essentially wasted