#subtlety

1 messages · Page 882 of 1

gusty wharf
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Is there a guide on how to sim properly ?

forest meadow
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raidbots, can go to advanced and click on stat weights from there

rocky cedar
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Hello there Rogue friends. Me(warlock) and my friend (sub rogue) are playing m+ this season and we both agree that he is underperforming on this spec. Neither of us know exaclty what is wrong or what mistakes he is making and how to improve. I have heard about class discord and was wondering if anyone would be so kind to check his logs and point out any obvious mistakes he is making. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/87050495?zone=47

paper siren
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We are about to go back to old building next patch

haughty heart
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I hate this

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Changing stats is so boring

warped stirrup
#

how long will it take for the faq to get updated

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post patch

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?*

haughty geyser
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!fuu

wicked joltBOT
wild vine
shy ermine
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You mean Y + 2.5%

swift tinsel
peak ice
rocky cedar
shy ermine
#

Yes but we’re a lot stronger than X + 2.5%

astral axle
shy ermine
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It’s more like X + 8%

peak ice
astral axle
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just less burst

warped stirrup
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i just picked up rogue

peak ice
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Check pins

warped stirrup
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o ok

astral axle
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Linked in pins

rocky cedar
peak ice
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So if it’s in the same macro it doesn’t give the dance the extended duration

warped stirrup
#

ty! glad to see a good summary of the results of the changes already out

lime vortex
astral axle
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even puzzle box cast time means you don't wanna macro it to something tho

peak ice
lime vortex
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That said he shouldnt macro blades with puzzle or he'll lose 2 sec of dance

gusty wharf
#

Is it ok to macro puzzle to potion ?

peak ice
#

I just sorta assumed the 13 was the most recent run

lime vortex
peak ice
#

Either way

#

Best to seperate

hexed wave
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ok so old talents and back to mastery and swapping from cloud, got it

tepid flint
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litte question, now without hast Flask i got around 666 haste, and 873 crt and 614 mastery. what kind of Flask should i take

thin sinew
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haste you need ~700 haste rating

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assuming you have guidons if not you need ~800 haste

peak ice
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Is that without oils too

tepid flint
hollow spear
#

Then you need to either have a great gaming chair or get 30 ish haste from somewhere

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Or drop 130 haste and get a haste flask

peak ice
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Yea, try see if you can swap some gems around to get closer to 700

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And then mastery flask

tepid flint
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Problem is here, if i dont take the haste flaske, i need to change my neck

image.png image.png
thin sinew
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well you've got at least +18 haste probably more

peak ice
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Are the likes little dots meaning it’s low quality gem?

thin sinew
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think it's +21 if the bond of light haste a haste offstat in it

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2 dots mean max rank

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it's stupid i know

peak ice
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Oh

fierce wigeon
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!fuu

wicked joltBOT
peak ice
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Just swap for haste/mast gems

tepid flint
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now without any oils ,flask, and im elf i got around 19%

thin sinew
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from what i can see on the icons you've got +11 haste on the ring socket and +9 on the neck

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Took a lot of squinting so might be wrong

thin sinew
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for example. i'm also 19% haste as nelf
If i check in a few hours i'd be 20.29% but same rating

image.png
fallow ingot
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Can we already sims droptimizer with next week changes ?

somber sun
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gotta wait for NA reset

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I think

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to get accurate sims

peak ice
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Omg I just realised why I was so fuck baffled by why my haste randomly went down yesterday

thin sinew
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Pretty certain Eleem said to just change your hero talent to No scruples and it would be close enough

fallow ingot
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make sense ty

peak ice
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I’m a night elf now

thin sinew
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as the cloud cover nerf is about the same as the aura buff it won't be perfect but it'll make stats correct

fallow ingot
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i need to changes bonus id from crafter gear tho zzz

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does anyone know the combo for mastery crit ?

peak ice
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Combo?

fallow ingot
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On simc the string

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for crit mast stats on crafted gear

peak ice
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Don’t you just add the item and select mast/crit?

fallow ingot
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will make too much combinaisons with rings sims ?

peak ice
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Depends how many crafted pieces I guess

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I didn’t know there was another way to do it tbh

fallow ingot
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anyone have a crafter item with crist mast ?

thin sinew
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Can change the recraft then unselect what you have currently

spiral bloom
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you just go to top gear --> add a piece --> crafted item --> change stats and add

tepid flint
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is next wekk mast > crit or its mast = crit

fallow ingot
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mast > crit

oak grotto
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!guidon

wicked joltBOT
#

Trickster Shadow Blades Optimization:
During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back. This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

oak grotto
#

Do you play Planned Execution or Warning signs?

thin sinew
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PE until reset then back to WS

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assuming changing cloud cover on reset

dusky yacht
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So now I'm recrafting again for 2.5% buff

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Blizzard

chilly tree
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If all of subs bugs were fixed, how much of a gain would it be?

abstract cosmos
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we still be low par on meters

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WE SUCK

swift tinsel
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this one alone would be quite nice

image.png
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same with CBK not buffing them

chilly tree
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So like 6 or 7 percent?

dusky yacht
#

Roughly 69420

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Parts per million

swift tinsel
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or sectech benefitting from apex

thin sinew
hexed wave
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aight so hope i see a quick guide on youtube lol

swift tinsel
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but gotta nerf cloud cover after a week

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stellar priorities

dusky yacht
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They could've just given us a minor buff and it'd been the exact same thing only I wouldn't have to recraft back again

swift tinsel
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they...did

dusky yacht
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Exactly my point

thin sinew
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Well they basically buffed us like 10% overall compared to before x.x.5

dusky yacht
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Yeah don't get me wrong I'm happy

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It's just

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Silly

hexed wave
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so basically revert to old talents and stack mastery again, right? i was enjoying the new smoke mechanic

abstract cosmos
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YES

hexed wave
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was cool af

upbeat sorrel
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Did you recraft crit

swift tinsel
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I'm not I liked blades feeling like a burst cd again

abstract cosmos
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i wasnt it was awful

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trying to move with boss

chilly tree
abstract cosmos
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with smoke

swift tinsel
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you didn't have to stay in cloud

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the buff refreshed itself

hexed wave
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i got guida

abstract cosmos
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yes

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if ur at 700

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recraft

hexed wave
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❤️ ty im at peace now

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think some of my crafts have haste so ima make sure haste is there elsewhere

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had to quickly buy all the wow cosmetics on d4 before i lost them in the shop

abstract cosmos
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is this good stat prio for next week

image.png
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this is with pot used

fleet acorn
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Where did u guy Bonus Roll still have 3 only need m+ upgrades ?

modern sentinel
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that just depends what you need

marble sail
dusky yacht
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And yes it's fine

graceful portal
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Sorry I wasnt playing rogue before the could cover rework so idk how the stats were. Even if we want mast>crit they still are balanced and we still have a lot of crit right ?

gilded ferry
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Is someone here willing to log review for a bit

lilac stag
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You can use !log - golds usually good about checking out

fierce wigeon
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!fuu

wicked joltBOT
gilded ferry
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DO IT SCATH

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I green parsed on mythic, im washed

wispy star
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Does the latest simc already use the new patch? So back to theory crafting again i guess 🫠

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Was blasting this week with sub tbh.

gilded ferry
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tbh i like going back to premed

lilac stag
lime vortex
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!bugs

wicked joltBOT
plush roost
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Again!??!

graceful portal
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Will puzzle box be better after the changes ?

hollow spear
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Wdym back?

plush roost
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They fixed it i thought and then broke it and then fixed it

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I must have missed the next breaking

abstract cosmos
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@graceful portal guidon was good before smoke cover so its up to you its maybe a 0.2% better if u have guidon

wispy star
graceful portal
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Because i simmed it on dslice and seems to be better but the bot has some trouble with the haste cap sometimes

errant hearth
wispy star
swift tinsel
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I don’t remember them fixing it though

errant hearth
swift tinsel
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Thought that one and Sectech clone bugs were the ones they didn’t get to

lusty root
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Dungeon slice is very good. Dont overthink it

wispy star
errant hearth
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Ty

graceful portal
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Is there a way to know if the sims are updated for next patch ?

fleet acorn
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Need to wait for fuu

stuck lance
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How far apart are cloud cover and no scruples?

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So is he saying cloud cover is 2.5% behind now?

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Cause it sounds like current build is 2.5% behind current build which means after nerf it might be more just trying to figure out if it still might be good for burstier situations

unreal ledge
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it says 'back to old talents' meaning we take scruples over CC and it's 2.5% better

hazy breach
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And no scruples is 2.5% ahead

stuck lance
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Ok cool so its just 2.5% different but if we have a spot where we want the extra burst it might still be good like salad bar or maybe egg

hazy breach
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Not really unless the burst is like 10s

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The duration nerf really stings

unreal ledge
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CC is gutted

stuck lance
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Ok thanks that's what I was trying to see

plush roost
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Making cloud cover last 12 seconds was such a "were only thinking of outlaw here" change haha

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Oh well i preferred scruples anyway so W patch

stuck lance
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Back to most underwhelming hero talents in the game I thought cloud cover was neat

hexed wave
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btw for a casual who likes to immediately know what and how to play rogue, works a lot and isn’t a good min maxer or even player, I appreciate how quick you guys fill me in on stuff and teach me how to play the game, so thanks! 🙏🏼

plush roost
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It was neat until youre progging lura and your p3 double damage phase crits 6/18 shadowstrikes

hexed wave
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wowhead and murlok + you guys just make rogue much more more enjoyable

plush roost
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I hate and despise crit rng

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When its that varient

worldly violet
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hi , there was an Excel file of simulations made by fuu, does anyone have the link? HOLY

plush roost
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Does my strike do 30k or 100k smile

pearl swan
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!fuu

wicked joltBOT
stuck lance
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Sure but having some visuals is still nice and they could have nerfed crit without duration

unreal ledge
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the ground denial vision from smokebomb was trash

warm marlin
stuck lance
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Would still prefer to have something our hero talents are still very boring

unreal ledge
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just give me more dmg is all i care about lol

thin sinew
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Was funny for like a day when everyone panic ran out of the cloud but after that it was just tiresome

lilac stag
unreal ledge
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They fixed it where only you see it now, but still i dont want to see it either

warm marlin
vale pine
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the change is overall nice

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a small buff

warm marlin
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i fear the truth is far worse

vale pine
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even tho it does not fix our cleave/aoe

lilac stag
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Dk time?

unreal ledge
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i'm happy with it is all good for me, back to premed and unscruples

vale pine
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and does remove some of our burst, not much tho

warm marlin
stuck lance
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Does the fazed debuff just instantly drop back to 1 stack after cloud cover drops or does it last the full duration

vale pine
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it satys on 2 stacks as long as you don't re-apply it (or it runs out)

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*3

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btu you typically do that frequently

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the duration nerf hits the hardest

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i am fine with it tho, i did not like the talent that much

stuck lance
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Oof seems like they coulda made it atleast not override then it might have been a bit better xD

vale pine
lilac stag
vale pine
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only real problem is the slight reduction in burst

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but also

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i think subtlety just need to get the nimble flurry change reverted

naive creek
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Where can I read about the talent changes? I can't find it on ptr forum

stuck lance
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I know it wasn't ideal but maybe this shows them trying to give our hero talents more visual esthetic

vale pine
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and some talent updates

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and it would play a lot better

stuck lance
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Asthetic

warm marlin
raw frost
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saw a streamer that said that

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sub is 3.8 % nerfed now

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have no idea 😄

stuck lance
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Cap nimble at 3 targets and make it huge lol

raw frost
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or just add eviscerate at him as well 😄

vale pine
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i think there is a valid point to be made about the nimble change

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it could mean we do good cleave and aoe and prio

raw frost
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nimble is still 10-12 % dmg in dungeons is good

vale pine
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but that would also make subtlety rly good at all 3 things

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even tho prio wouldn't be that strong

warm marlin
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other classes dont have this hangup with being good at everything

vale pine
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the nerfs just came from performance pre raid

warm marlin
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they will simply be good at all of them

vale pine
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and ende dup throwing the balance between spells out

short radish
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Yeah rogue had this weird fixation with niche

raw frost
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is it me or sub 2 and 3 targets cleave is shit

dreamy wedge
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hmm I feel like I have 0 prio as sub

raw frost
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and dmg there is really bad

vale pine
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which was expected by me before that

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but seemed to be not a concern from that many others

short radish
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Like we have to have one

stuck lance
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Make nimble 3 target at 75% woo

vale pine
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its basically just

gilded ferry
raw frost
warm marlin
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warlock has execute and spread cleave and stacked cleave on all their specs

vale pine
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i did not trust blizzard to belance things well if they remove tuning knobs

short radish
vale pine
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so thats all

short radish
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If you want to prio you just single target rotation

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Which isn't proo

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Prio

raw frost
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yes

vale pine
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i still think nimble is gameplay wise better

short radish
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At most you have funnel outside sdance

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But that damage is whatever anywau

vale pine
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our funnel is very bad tho

dreamy wedge
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By funnel you mean my auto attacks?

gilded ferry
oak grotto
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Does emberwing work like a poormans version of guidon?

short radish
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Well depends what you need to do

gilded ferry
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(Not on spawned adds, the Matrix)

stuck lance
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Emeberwing is 2 min right?

oak grotto
short radish
stuck lance
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Yeah thats probably a lot worse the. Guidon but I do see some good parses with puzzle

oak grotto
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It was mainly thinking if the active counts towards the CD on SecTech

stuck lance
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And with puzzle u run like 800 haste right?

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It does but then u delay or use it every other one

vale pine
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yes

short radish
vale pine
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you go to 800 without gaze

stuck lance
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Guidon*

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U miss the second sectech in dance though i think

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Shadow blades*

fierce wigeon
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!fuu

wicked joltBOT
fierce wigeon
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dang sims not out yet

proper slate
vale pine
pliant canopy
#

Mastery or crit flask in M+ with the new build?

vale pine
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mastery flask

pliant canopy
#

ty

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and crit for raid i assume?

vale pine
#

yes

pliant canopy
#

ty

pliant canopy
# vale pine

So I learned this new playstyle for nothing? XD

vale pine
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oh no

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you learned to adopt

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which is always valuable

pliant canopy
#

xd

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true

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(i am copiuming)

vale pine
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the change is overall nice

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you go back to premed and old talents

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have the old opener again

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and gain a little better in aoe technically

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(and single target)

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tho the change is very small, so i doubt its noticable

gilded ferry
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Whats the Old opener again

short radish
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Shadow strike into send

vale pine
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strike-cooldowns-secret

drowsy ibex
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Is sub rogue still the better pick for raids?

merry bloom
#

fuu how much mast should i aim for with new build

1ddcb57c49fcbf434d559c28d585790f.png
vale pine
merry bloom
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reset

vale pine
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try to split evenly between crit and mastery

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slightly more mastery possible

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tho it does not matter as much

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haste is important to be at 700

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then invest in either, whatever you have

merry bloom
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true im at 500 mast and 1000 crit currently

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yikes

cursive oar
vale pine
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mythic+?

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or mythic raid?

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techncailly want in both

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but i know some chinese do invest extremely in masterry over everything else

astral axle
#

Old opener? Don't you mean

strike -> flag -> rupture -> dance -> backstab -> symbols + shadowblades + trinket -> sectech -> strike/evisc -> dance -> backstab -> symbols -> coldblood + sectech -> strike/evisc ???

surreal orbit
#

how the fuck do you sim gems im so confused

vale pine
surreal orbit
#

It just told me 2 different things on 2 different sims with no other changes

spice escarp
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I miss flag

vale pine
vale pine
surreal orbit
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I dont see that

vale pine
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cloud cover was budget flag

lapis ridge
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My CDs are always up 10 seconds before guidons, do I just send another dance and sectec with 10 seconds until CDs and 20 seconds until guidons, and then hold CDs until guidons is up?

unreal ledge
vale pine
dusky yacht
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Or like it confused me a while

hexed wave
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can someone re post those ST and M+ talents again? so I can just select em for now

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thanks

astral axle
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I still have the backstab in my muscle memory and will rarely press it after I press dance haha

merry bloom
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just macro guidon with your blades so they always go at same time

surreal orbit
#

using premed?

image.png
dusky yacht
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I’m kinda happy overall with the new changes, I just need to recraft to balance my mastery a bit more and I got a 2.5% buff. We take that.

vale pine
unreal ledge
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i'm happy to be back to premed and away from vision denial

vale pine
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use guidon on a seperate key

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can macro blades with dance

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but you want to use guidon before dance, ideally 1 sec earlier to be 100% sure you get the extended dance duration

dusky yacht
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I prefer macroing my blades with pot and just using sectec macro personally, and got guidon bound seperately obv

vale pine
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works too

dusky yacht
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Most important thing is using guidon ~1sec before everything tho

merry bloom
#

do u not want guidon always with blades :O?

dusky yacht
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Before it

merry bloom
#

ah okay

vale pine
uncut token
#

How should I balance my stat as Sub regarding incoming balance.
Standing right now at (without flask) :
34 crit
19 haste
38 mastery
6 versa

vale pine
#

you want to always align guidon with blades, so you can do 2x secret and 2x dance with longer duration during it

merry bloom
#

so like guidon > blades/dance > sec tec order ?

dusky yacht
graceful portal
#

@vale pineHey, do you know if/when the sim will be updated ?

dusky yacht
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Guidon ~1 secish before everything else because it takes that amount of time for deepening shadows to update, check pins for info

merry bloom
#

ah okay that makes sense thank you!

vale pine
viral salmon
#

Are we still gonna be using cloud cover after the tuning this upcoming week

vale pine
#

no

graceful portal
#

!sheet

wicked joltBOT
vale pine
#

top level overview

image.png
hallow mortar
#

eleem said 2.5% buff i like his version better

left ledge
#

Deathstalker got a 7% buff

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If you’d like that instead

vale pine
#

give me a sec

hallow mortar
#

pogg

dreamy wedge
#

@vale pine Maybe you rememeber how much DPS gain it is to use shadow dance on last 8 seconds of blades vs back-to-back? I feel like I am missing my second sec-tec a bit too many times.

vale pine
#

Trickster in the sim went from:
126.186 dps -> 129.812 dps
Which is a 2.9% buff i guess

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so ye, could be closer to 3%

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rather to set expectations low^^

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than to promise too much gain

left ledge
#

What I’m hearing is

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Play DS on lura

lilac stag
#

@swift tinsel how much of a bar were you getting in the void? Right now getting about 40k a pull.

swift tinsel
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Was getting about half a bar per run

lilac stag
#

Ok so about right

left ledge
#

Wait is that for leveling

swift tinsel
#

Yeah

left ledge
#

Is there new leveling

swift tinsel
#

Calamitous runs

umbral sable
#

But cloud cover was fun

left ledge
#

Oh fk is calamitous up

swift tinsel
#

Yep

left ledge
#

Holy

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I need that

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Ty

swift tinsel
#

Leveling day lol

lilac stag
#

Which curio?

swift tinsel
#

Iirc I always ran mandate and porcelain

hexed wave
#

what was that channel that showed both talents for st and aoe i forgot that personsname haha

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it was lovely

lilac stag
#

Will try mandate now

swift tinsel
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I like it for the execute since it seems to proc pretty often

livid gorge
#

Do we ever take "the first dance in raid"?

vale pine
#

XD

fiery fog
#

ds and trickster seem to be on par in pure st now right?
no reason to not play trickster on lura then

swift tinsel
#

Depending on your bonus xp I typically do calamitous until 88 then do and turn in all the delve quests and that tends to finish the last bit of xp for me

swift tinsel
lilac stag
#

I burned through bonus xp this morning

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At 85

silver tree
swift tinsel
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Ah rip

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It’s like 95-98k per turn-in later

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If not more

fiery fog
vale pine
#

so at least thats slightly better

thin sinew
lilac stag
swift tinsel
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Fly through them all at level 1 and quick turn in -> profit

lilac stag
#

So basically 80-90 pulls in calamity

gentle temple
#

!ui

wicked joltBOT
swift tinsel
#

Yeah, and it’s also nice if you have your DE to take care of the metric shit ton of BoEs you get

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Which also helps a bit with gearing by getting stuff while you run it

silver tree
#

Thematcially cool, in practice want to punch blizzard for designing it so poorly

grim wasp
#

iui

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!ui

wicked joltBOT
grim wasp
#

What is this addon i see alot that shows what button was pressed

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like a flow of the keys that were pressed or some stuffs like that

void ocean
#

Those r streamer modes

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I think dbm or big wigs have those

shy ermine
#

I don’t understand why we wouldn’t play DS after the patch, wasn’t it about 4% ahead before the .5 patch and cloud cover? Only change now will be no scruples moving from 10% to 12%, surely DS will be 3ish% ahead now?

raven maple
#

I just changed my stat weights berkcry

void ocean
odd sandal
#

Has it been confirmed that all key lvls count toward the roll lockout?

thin sinew
winged shore
void ocean
winged shore
#

I know I'm not gearing for DS because I do M+ and raid and I'm not going to troll myself

winged shore
#

lockout is shared

void ocean
#

Yea as long as its the same track

odd sandal
#

👍

shy ermine
#

Yeah but for lura single target is mostly what matters

undone cliff
#

Just saw the changes and looking at some of the chat. Is trickster not the go to anymore or are they close enough to choose either?

thin sinew
#

You can choose Deathstalker if you're insane

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more insane than a normal rogue that is

void ocean
#

Ofc trickster is still the way to go, just not cloud

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How do u get 1100 haste anyway 😂

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Is it every item

shy ermine
#

I can get 1100 haste easily enough

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Change flask, gems and 2 items

hexed wave
#

proper rotation come reset? for the time being we are still stiking to cloud for now, vault fillig purposes

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im guessing similar to before

woven nimbus
#

is there a single fight this tier where youre like pure st besides beloren(where im not even sure which spec bursts more in 40s)? like even vorasius you get a bit of cleave here and there.

sacred jewel
#

i consider vora and sala to be ST fights

#

well not in mythic anymore but

austere island
#

!macro

wicked joltBOT
#

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Light's Potential
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like wowhead WoWhead or IV Icy Veins.

void ocean
#

Every fight is a st if u ignore mechanics long enough 😂

sacred jewel
#

ethical non padders

void ocean
#

Like me on hc dreamrift on dk, didnt went down once

woven nimbus
#

im in

void ocean
#

Rl was pinging me

drowsy ibex
#

Is sub rogue still the better pick for raids?

sacred jewel
#

whats the % nerf for devourers does anyone have the numbers

grim wasp
sacred jewel
#

i know unholy will still be good regardless

woven nimbus
warm marlin
sacred jewel
thin sinew
#

but logging via Archon has a perfectly find thing for checking rotation on boss fights now

warm marlin
#

you play full st as rogue on all of last 3 basically

#

not your job to kill adds

swift tinsel
#

Esp if you have other specs that specialize in it

unborn egret
#

However, idk how frost mage keeps getting by untouched. Theyre a little too good in raid

woven nimbus
#

frost mage also got nerfed by 2%

sacred jewel
#

frost has been nerfed quite a bit

woven nimbus
#

2% st 1% cleave

thin sinew
#

For how simple it is as well

unborn egret
#

eh. Coulda been a better nerf

swift tinsel
#

It’s so boring it’s unreal

unborn egret
#

2% is nothing

woven nimbus
#

whats more tragic is blizzard touching affliction and not touching the other mage specs

swift tinsel
#

Balance is shit, same old same old

thin sinew
#

fire and arcane mage are in bad spots

woven nimbus
#

frost mage seems fine tho,a small nerf for the class that dies the most in raid

unborn egret
#

Arcane is so bad. Its actually unreal

thin sinew
#

Arcane is only high because of alleria mini boss giga padding

woven nimbus
#

arcane also dies everywhere

#

like just by existing you die

thin sinew
#

yup

#

Frost SOMEHOW is just as bad at deaths but i think that's a skill diff

woven nimbus
#

everyone was memeing the mages when they said they dont have enough defensives in midnight

swift tinsel
#

It’s quite funny how many mages got outed after losing an insane defensive kit

thin sinew
unborn egret
#

Sub is gonna overtake assa in raid and im here for it

woven nimbus
#

gotta say if you ignore the other classes

unborn egret
#

Rogues only lool

woven nimbus
#

the roguespecs are kinda even

#

together were shit

#

hand in hand

grim wasp
# thin sinew

was so happy to get pit dagger with extra refund roll and now i need a 2h sword

#

is sub done?

swift tinsel
#

Kinda crazy bc sub is insanely tanky

woven nimbus
#

nah

woven nimbus
unborn egret
#

Together were mid. Not even bad tbh. That boss damage tho 🔥

warm marlin
#

there are multiple fights on which rogue is squishy this tier

errant hearth
#

My 5 stack is full physical comp. Should I switch from sub to outlaw?

thin sinew
#

people seem to sleep on the finisher healing

swift tinsel
unborn egret
warm marlin
#

oh ye

#

that part is true

#

but u all just die to certain mechanics

grim wasp
warm marlin
#

very fun

woven nimbus
errant hearth
swift tinsel
#

Idk I think I’m peacing out in the next week or so from the season

warm marlin
unborn egret
#

Kinda sad blizz nerfed cloud to the ground. I thought it added to the rogue fantasy well, but i also didnt care for tanks immediately running away from my cloud 🫠🤣

woven nimbus
errant hearth
grim wasp
woven nimbus
#

just sucks bc stat prio changes

vale pine
swift tinsel
#

I just don’t like the direction of midnight in general

grim wasp
warm marlin
unborn egret
#

Blizzard said Rogues didnt need a Death and decay - like ability 😭

vale pine
#

soon™

thin sinew
unborn egret
woven nimbus
unborn egret
#

Sub is the superior spec anyways

woven nimbus
grim wasp
#

great news then

shy ermine
vale pine
#

dracthyr_kek don't spoil the fun

woven nimbus
#

pls dont make me go 1.1k haste

#

pls no

grim wasp
unborn egret
#

Is sub 2 target cleave better than it has been before?

grim wasp
thin sinew
#

You morons all playing sub wrong.

Meta is Fatebound Sub

unborn egret
#

We play Deathstalker in ST confirmed

vale pine
#

but its like

#

aura buff makes everything do more

#

so cleave does more too

woven nimbus
#

lets see if we really get the full aura buff

lilac stag
#

7% x 0 = 0

woven nimbus
#

or if its only 3% in the end

vale pine
#

not specifically fixing subtleites problem of weak cleave

#

deathstalker is at least 2% ahead it seems, i need to finish the sim

#

which means

#

technically seen its more than a 2.5% buff

#

because thats on top of that

#

(tho only relevant for single target)

unborn egret
#

Except there are 0 ST fights in raid loool

vale pine
#

laura is one

warm marlin
#

DS would be played on alleria belo and lura

#

kinda big

shy ermine
#

Yeah the most important one is single target

unborn egret
#

But i like padding seeds 🙁

vale pine
#

(i keep calling her laura, you can't stop me)

woven nimbus
lucid jackal
#

I will continue repeating myself but I feel like people don't understand how bad deathstalker plays in practice

shy ermine
#

Idk about belo because ds probably has less burst, but with 40 second egg windows the fight damage check is much lower

graceful rock
#

You probably also go ds on Alleria

lucid jackal
#

Even ignoring target swaps

#

It just plays like ass

graceful rock
#

No we do

errant hearth
#

I got hero plume from the weekly box so I never did the new raid lmao

vale pine
warm marlin
unborn egret
#

Idk whats more impressive. How bad DS is or the fact that blizz cant figure out how to fix it

graceful rock
#

Can’t wait to mfd snipe my interupt add

vale pine
#

high haste makes it i think somewhat decent

#

i still prefere trickster

unborn egret
#

Same

#

Wish assa had trickster ngl

robust light
#

" yea bro i totally wanna press a button to move my ds mark

#

what were theythinking

lucid jackal
unborn egret
#

Claude was thinking not them

lucid jackal
#

It's about the dance logic and no sectec cdr

shy ermine
#

1100 haste solves the sectec cdr

swift tinsel
#

It’s just mechanically bad and unfun

thin sinew
#

Oh you need to do add damage now? better recraft!

lucid jackal
unborn egret
#

Having to switch back to mastery…. Fkin yay.

warm marlin
#

it didnt feel great ngl

graceful rock
#

Nerf shaman buff

swift tinsel
#

Give it to us as a class tree talent

cloud barn
#

Wait so cloud cover is dead?

swift tinsel
#

Then blacklist Skyfury autos

#

Like ret used to have

vale pine
swift tinsel
#

Bring this back and have it match shaman buff %

IMG_0586.png
#

And obv apply to all wep types for rogue

plush roost
vale pine
#

i played it with low haste once

#

and it felt fine

plush roost
#

Tbh quietus actually makes the rotation have random moments of juice

#

I lowkey wonder if theres been some no premed cooks for DS

#

Ik it liks starting low but like what if u just started high with apex dn sec tec strike evis strike apex dn

#

Ds sims feel cooked to me

keen dome
abstract cosmos
#

is running patchwerk and 5 adds better or should i do dung slice instead

empty bobcat
#

tbh cloud was bad in M+ as it made some mechanics hidden or at least hard to see so I am happy to drop it for dungeons.

lilac stag
empty bobcat
#

glad I kept crit/mastery balanced - but I fear box will sim better in dungeons again and I love guidon currently

strange chasm
plush roost
#

Was simming 100k earlier in season and consistently did 3-4% more than that

lilac stag
#

I mentioned it to fuu, I’d be shocked if DS isn’t ahead by a good bit.

hazy breach
plush roost
#

Yeah i need to dig into some logs and the sim and compare

#

See if theres a disparity

wicked badger
#

what's the diff between finality and veiltouched, performance wise?

hazy breach
hazy breach
lilac stag
#

how close was DS to current Tricky Cloud?

hazy breach
#

Ds is pretty much the same as no scruples

#

(With the 1.1k setup)

shrewd lantern
#

is cloud still worth on bel

#

or not really

wicked badger
sinful zephyr
#

I must say I dont really miss premed in keys at least

shrewd lantern
#

dont you play both rn anyway

#

and no tfd

wicked badger
#

idk, I try and look at sub talents in rio but seems always diff

shrewd lantern
#

Probably because the difference isnt significant

wicked badger
#

I have tfd + finality but no veiltouched atm

#

that's what I figured

shrewd lantern
#

maybe im yapping since i’ve been playing assa above 12

#

XD

wicked badger
#

sure, obviously there is no gameplay diff (except tfd I guess), so I wanna just do what's best lol. hitting 16/17s now and wanna try and get more understanding

#

all g, ty

shrewd lantern
#

tfd doesnt change gameplay really

#

you just get longer dance sometimes

wicked badger
#

yeah I mean if I wanna try and stay stealth an extra second or something between packs. but so many tanks chainpulling nowadays I stg

shrewd lantern
#

maybe if this spec did something

#

besides ss bp spam

#

it would

sweet moss
#

i’m happy we don’t have to pre dance before each pull

#

fuck me

abstract cosmos
#

just a question if someone can help me with my sim i feel like my sims off coz its telling me to go more mastery

#

if someone can help thanks

shrewd lantern
abstract cosmos
#

its also telling me to go mastery pot

#

weird

paper trail
#

What specc do you guys think will come ahead with the upcomming nerfs? Outlaw or sub

astral axle
#

arms warrior

paper helm
lilac stag
abstract cosmos
#

@lilac stag what should i sim

lilac stag
hexed wave
#

issue is u arent geared anough

thin sinew
#

Not with that weak mindset

somber sun
#

nah w bro, I carry the run and I get 20 gold

image.png
#

all chest drops btw no rolls

thin sinew
lilac stag
#

guess the word bonus has a new meaning

somber sun
#

bro I just saw the first two sorry 😔

#

bare with me bro, frustration made me blind

gilded ferry
#

while u are at it

lilac stag
#

we’d need a warrior before a DK

shrewd lantern
#

well you see

#

dk you have to do a mechanic

#

warrior you just zug

warm marlin
#

nah bro dk does less mechanics than warr

#

you have to grip but you ignore everything else

shrewd lantern
#

actually its a tradeoff since dks have to do raid mechanics but are immune to do things that target them

#

solution is find another dk and put the job on them

lilac stag
somber sun
#

but you need undermine raid set pieces

lilac stag
#

they lift dagger mog restriction?

somber sun
#

fk them daggers bro

#

use katanas

ripe flame
lilac stag
shrewd lantern
lime vortex
#

Does anyone have an issue where sometimes shadowstrike got casted 2 times in a row overcapping cp and losing energy. I do have this issue even tho i have like 120 stable fps and 30-40 ms average

torpid echo
#

Question regarding tuning.

Trickster: Cloud Cover now causes Fazed to stack 1 additional time (was 2).

This bit is only present on outlaw tuning and not sub is the duration alone a big enough Nerf to make us change talents go mastery over crit or we are expecting this to be a typo and this also affects sub?

hazy breach
#

We are not expecting it to affect sub no

lilac stag
#

@swift tinsel anything special for getting the delve quests ore are they just outside the delves?

image.png
ripe flame
#

Every delve quest can be grabbed inside it

#

The silvermoon library one I always grab it outside so that one I'm not 100% sure

#

But afaik you can get the quest for each inside them

upbeat sorrel
#

All of them have it inside

#

Just finished leveling my dh

#

In time for nerfs

lilac stag
#

inside we go

dusky yacht
#

To like 150

lime vortex
upbeat sorrel
#

Can do all the delves, save turn ins until about halfway to 88

#

Do turns in and then professions for 90

dusky yacht
#

Google ‘wow midnight input queue change command’ or summin

lime vortex
dusky yacht
ripe flame
dusky yacht
#

It’s normally at 400 which is kinda silly ngl

unborn egret
#

so our burst is smaller but we're 2.5% better, that right bois ?

dusky yacht
#

Last number I saw was 2.9% but yeah thereabouts

teal plaza
#

Is sub switching off smoke with this change?

unborn egret
frosty bramble
#

its in pins

dusky yacht
radiant swift
#

is there a way to change showing color in m+ search

vale pine
#

yes, we skip smoke bomb after patch

radiant swift
#

i swear to god they see yellow and its joever

ripe flame
#

Name change to devourerdh

#

And trick the color blind

radiant swift
#

might be worth a try

lime vortex
teal plaza
grim wasp
#

works for me

dusky yacht
wary locust
#

BiS Gear changing again? Mastery>Crit?

sweet moss
#

yep

#

well

#

balanced amount

radiant swift
sweet moss
#

what’s the sim tech to be minimum 700 haste

grim wasp
dusky yacht
radiant swift
#

with 282 even pretty much up there with ilvl

radiant swift
minor osprey
#

So now its gonna be 800haste 700 crit?

sweet moss
#

no

#

700 hates

#

haste

grim wasp
#

damage was just above tank

minor osprey
grim wasp
#

in a +13

radiant swift
sweet moss
#

ohh maybe

grim wasp
strange chasm
#

@vale pine whats DS looking like 👀

grim wasp
#

got group

#

try it works

radiant swift
#

sure yeah but

#

lets do a bit more than the tank

sweet moss
grim wasp
#

the goal is to join party sir

#

what damage we do in the party is something else

#

to get in the notes work

vale pine
wicked joltBOT
dusky yacht
#

Now I’m gonna have to get used to premed again, my lobster is too juicy and I can’t drink all dis wine

vale pine
#

within 2-3% dps

image.png
#

very haste heavy (still)

dusky yacht
#

Goddamn

#

But yeah I’m not gonna get 1.1k haste just to play DS though

vale pine
#

i stick with trickster

thin sinew
#

So how much of a loss is it to not have the amount of haste needed for deathstalker?

vale pine
#

which now splits mastery/crit more evenly, slightly more into mastery

cloud jasper
#

who tf is in charge of rogues... honestly.... deathstalker should be clear winner in st ffs

wary locust
#

trickster better multi?

thin sinew
#

we talking not having 1100 haste is -8+% or?

vale pine
#

tickster: 700

thin sinew
vale pine
#

deathstalker: 1100

dusky yacht
vale pine
#

moment

dusky yacht
thin sinew
#

is it don't even think about it territory?

plush roost
#

After all the changes idk now

thin sinew
#

yeh just figured i'd ask as you never know!

plush roost
#

It may be behind trickster now

#

Or neutral

#

1100 haste was like a 4% gain iirc

half comet
#

we still think pit is best voidcore uses? depending on char ofc

thin sinew
#

Yeh if it's the same it's basically don't even think about it if you don't wanna deal with the haste change

plush roost
meager canopy
#

This build will be the best gear

image.png
#

We're not playing the same Bis-list games we had before version 12.0.5?

azure mauve
#

well

#

at least we go back to premed and the attack speed talent now

dusky yacht
#

Dis da best geru

minor osprey
dusky yacht
lilac stag
#

bis lists kekw

azure mauve
#

ngl it felt ass to play cloud cover sub sometimes

vale pine
meager canopy
#

Yes, but in terms of equipment it wasn't exactly this one.

grim wasp
vale pine
lilac stag
#

you realize ther'e's a good 10+ combos of gear that all are withing variance

dusky yacht
#

But now you must add /me worships fuu to all you macros

hollow spear
#

Imagine gearing based on bis lists OMEGAKEKW

azure mauve
#

where would you even play deathstalker?

thin sinew
azure mauve
#

belo?

lilac stag
#

but keep chasing the list

vale pine
#

from stats

azure mauve
vale pine
#

from 1% behind

azure mauve
#

some people like that

lilac stag
dusky yacht
#

He threatens the sovereignty of the list!!!

vale pine
#

to 2.5% ahead

lilac stag
azure mauve
#

i aint even talking about myself

vale pine
azure mauve
#

but someone ppl like bis lists

hollow spear
meager canopy
vale pine
#

more or less

azure mauve
#

theres a reason they are added in guides

vale pine
#

slightly mre mastery

lilac stag
dusky yacht
vale pine
#

the reason bis lists are in guides is because people demand them

hollow spear
#

The only reason they add them is people insisting on having them garf_sit

azure mauve
#

ye cause peeps like them

thin sinew
azure mauve
#

2+2

minor osprey
#

So for DS its 1100haste / master / vers / crit

vale pine
#

they are a flawed thing, as you will always go on a "per piece" bade when gearing

#

but they are not ultimate trueths

lilac stag
#

i like my imaginary friends too. you are the best bis list ever

hollow spear
#

Yeah so your reasoning is circular

vale pine
#

and always changing

#

especially if talent changes or asymetric buffs/nerfs are appleid

dusky yacht
lavish socket
#

quick question guys, was I suppose to receive 1 flawless form stack for each backstab and shadowstrike, correct?

lilac stag
#

i dont even know you, so no

dusky yacht
lavish socket
#

im spamming backstab and only receiving one

dusky yacht
#

Rejected

dusky yacht
lilac stag
#

!bis

#

well damn

hollow spear
#

The key to bis is simple: if I wear it, it's bis

lilac stag
#

I like when Seli had the wrong trinket for the outlaw bix list

dusky yacht
#

It’s bis if nothing else sims better, like gaze

lilac stag
dusky yacht
#

Everything else is relative no

lavish socket
#

thanks

lilac stag
#

i'm waiting for the chinese TC's to find another 2-4% in DS

dusky yacht
lilac stag
#

going to shatter the wowhead bis list yet again

grim wasp
dusky yacht
#

I like pushing buttons

empty cargo
hollow spear
#

I like vanilla milk shake, I'm plain like that

azure thicket
#

bis list helps with secondary stat stuff mostly

spice island
grim wasp
#

bis list gives a sense of direction

azure thicket
#

vanilla with chocolate sprinkles tbh

dusky yacht
#

I like latte machiatto grande with caramel

grim wasp
#

vanilla is good too

lilac stag
spice island
#

I can't stand sprinkles lol

vale pine
azure thicket
#

yeah rainbow sprinkles are cursed but the choccy ones garf_sit

grim wasp
dusky yacht
vale pine
#

nope

lilac stag
vale pine
#

we don't even know the final implementation of the changes

spice island
#

Nah fair, it's a texture thing for me, I don't necessarily like the crunch with yogurt or ice cream

paper stirrup
#

is coming patch buff or nerf?

vale pine
#

could be that they make some oopsies there

vale pine
dusky yacht
#

‘Could’

vale pine
#

thanks

paper stirrup
#

i know its both, but do we ghain more or lose more?

vale pine
#

its a overall buff, but a small reduction of burst damage

dusky yacht
#

I will miss the ss crits a tiny bit

hexed wave
#

this group i was just in, they said this rogue....

#

im waiting for something bad

vale pine
#

i will miss the cloud bomb

hexed wave
#

goes "fasterst kicker in the west"

vale pine
#

every time i now see a boss mechanic

hexed wave
#

fastest**

vale pine
#

it will remind me, just how bad it was when i didn't due to the smoke effect

dusky yacht
paper stirrup
#

do we even spec cloud cover anymore?

spice island
#

They should just move the fart cloud effect to Blind since Cover might as well just be a buff on the bar

dusky yacht
vale pine
lilac stag
#

@vale pine you realize we are overdue for a deathstalkermark patch cycle

hollow spear
#

Better lock yourself in for some more ds minmaxing

vale pine
#

deathstalker was the best hero talent for this entire patch on st

hollow spear
#

Surely there's 3% to be gained by changing the bis list kekdog

vale pine
#

surely needs a nerf

#

can't be this dominant

lilac stag
#

I’ll have what he’s having

astral axle
grim wasp
#

is there a macro that use crimson vial healpot healthstone all in one?

#

ive noticed blackpower and coup de grace macro does not work it does the blackpowder instead of coup

radiant swift
grave cradle
grim wasp
#

im not stupid i dont plan to use all 3 at the same time

#

what i meant is a macro that use vial and then use healthstone and then use potion

#

like a priority

sly shore
#

no

grave cradle
#

dont think so, you could use a modifier macro with shift and alt/ctrl

sly shore
#

because it would always try and cast the crimson vial

#

and the healthstone

#

and the health pot

#

all in one

vale pine
#

you could do a cast sequence

thin sinew
#

All the healing talents casual 120% health xD

vale pine
#

technically

somber sun
#

you can choose what you want in the macro btw

#

and has usage/prio order

vagrant fossil
vagrant fulcrum
#

Ngl I didn’t expect them to kill cloud cover this quickly

astral axle
#

as a chronic IBS sufferer I felt like the game finally had me representation for once. sadgest

still gazelle
#

unless you're dancing with 3 targets or less, you're always using SStorm to gen right in 2+ targets?

grim wasp
grim wasp
unreal dock
#

!sheet

wicked joltBOT
vagrant fossil
somber sun
#

addon helped me get top 1 all star on logs

#

so I must share with other fellow rogues

charred sandal
#

is there a way to make deathstalker doable

swift tinsel
lilac stag
#

Dinner time then we slam out the last 1.6

warped stirrup
#

what missive should i put on a mh dagger craft?

wispy star
#

can we somehow already sim with the changes coming on 05.05?

raw frost
#

between 2.5 and 3 % buff in overall dmg and most likely 5-10 % less in burst

raw frost
grim wasp
raw frost
#

cloud cover was too good to be true and blizzard just hit us with reality check

grim wasp
#

I must see what i do wrong on logs

#

I use sec tech wrong i think

heady bridge
#

anyone else getting weird input lag when using macros like backstab/ss, bp/coup, SD/sec tec?

#

feels like sometimes they'll just cause my inputs to freeze up for like a GCD or two

grim wasp
somber sun
#

yeah

#

Ill say it again, so why is dh in since start of the season

heady bridge
#

something like that- I know sometimes coup doesn't go through just because I'm out of range without realizing since BP doesn't need a target in front of you, but it seems to be something else where using those macros just lags and doesn't work immediately

grim wasp
#

Strange i have 8 ms i should not lag

#

I will retry it in some mins

astral axle
#

I've not noticed any problems with SD+Sec Tech.

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But backstab/ss notoriously has always had some lag associated with it, no?

grim wasp
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For some reason it is difficult for me to adjust using cdm i used to use only action bar

astral axle
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And bp/coup honestly is just a bit cooked just to be real

grim wasp
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I bind shadow dance with sec tech right cause we dont use sec tech if not dancing

hazy lichen
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!fuu