subtlety

[short radish]

maybe i will make my own post then

and ride the train

🏄‍♂️ 🏄‍♂️

[tribal blade]

HAHAHA

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/no-one-wants-to-play-with-rogues/2288289

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/venom-tom-hardy-screaming-gif-11035878

[tribal blade]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/rogue-has-a-problem/2293618 someone here did a new essay

[short radish]

ye this is good

except the bard shit

[tribal blade]

holy shit my post hit 5k views

[short radish]

50 of those are me refreshing it every time i open my browser

[tribal blade]

my guildie arms warr said this earlier

[tribal blade]

yo huge

[short radish]

i have a small amount of copium

theres something in the works

[tribal blade]

same

it does feel like this has gone beyond just a class complaining (which every single class does)

[short radish]

it's been a while but DKs were in this spot before a while back right

[tribal blade]

they were yeah

[limpid sage]

what’s the hunter treatment

rework?

[tribal blade]

everyone universally recognizes rogues have big problems

[short radish]

then they suddenly designed every single raid tier to require 1 or 2

[tribal blade]

yeah rework

getting a raid buff

[short radish]

i mean when you lay the facts out

[tribal blade]

that kinda thing

[short radish]

idk how anyone can argue rogue being good

at most you beat the "atro is a good raid buff" horse

[limpid sage]

I think they should just make rogue top dps every tier to make up for bad raid buff

[tribal blade]

anyone who followed this race knows

it became a huge meme

about rogues

[short radish]

unironically yes they should (no bias 🤡 )

as a pure melee dps class that brings nothing except damage to teh table

[keen dome]

give me a raid buff

[short radish]

it should always be in the upper percentiles of damage

[tribal blade]

this no joke shoujld be true

if you have 3 dps spec class and bring no dmg buff

you should be topping dmg

[short radish]

this is also true for the other 3 pure damage classes in the game 🙂

[tribal blade]

but i'd rather have a raid buff

[short radish]

:):):)

[keen dome]

Give me raid buff

[tribal blade]

YUP

[keen dome]

give me tank spec

give me, uh. Posion toggle

[short radish]

poison toggle is a hill im not willing to fight for

[tribal blade]

nah tank spec would be way too much work haha

[short radish]

it's so whatever

[leaden prairie]

Also no bias at all but outlaw should be topping on any boss with 100% uptime to compensate for the fact it's unplayable on any boss with downtime or damage amp

No bias tho

[keen dome]

[tribal blade]

agreed

[keen dome]

I want an outlaw season where they're top in raid and M+

[leaden prairie]

Well might be next week

Unlucky prog is over

[tribal blade]

i'm sorry haha, ti's not that i don't like your idea, it's more so i don't think the devs want to dedicate TAHT much time to rogue

so i'll take what i can get

[short radish]

tbh i do want to see an outlaw tier

just once

where it's the go to spec for all bosses

[leaden prairie]

Ye will happen one day ..

[limpid sage]

This is also true

[leaden prairie]

(never)

[alpine wraith]

you would need more bosses like ultraxion

[short radish]

and watch 98% of this discord fall in shambles

[limpid sage]

I have no idea why it’s not the case

[alpine wraith]

or avatar of sargeras

and when was last time that happened

[leaden prairie]

I mean with current design it will never happen

Just open crown logs

[tribal blade]

watch them put more and more power into AR to try to make it happen

[alpine wraith]

they really love to spice the add situation

[limpid sage]

Spec reliant on 100% uptime with no burst? Needs to beat everything else at 100% uptime

[leaden prairie]

It's still on cdr tho

[alpine wraith]

short lived fuckers that need to die in 8 secs

[leaden prairie]

That wouldn't change anything

[tribal blade]

it is yeah

hey crazy idea

[alpine wraith]

nothing like being in the air or doing random shit for like almost 1 min or more of the fight without being able to hit anything

pog

[tribal blade]

take AR off restless

[leaden prairie]

But also idk at this point I'm fine with outlaw being unplayable on stuffs like dimensius tindral crown etc

[tribal blade]

would that be crazy

[leaden prairie]

I think it's ok

Just wished we would then blast the 100% uptime bosses..

[keen dome]

I think outlaw tier would be really interesting for a lot of reasons

but also it'd be REALLY funny.

[leaden prairie]

I mean it wouldn't be outlaw then, one of the big reason I like the spec is cause I don't have to think about cds

It's very enjoyable

[tribal blade]

that's fair

[leaden prairie]

Particularly In keys

[short radish]

would be nice if rogues had the same option of having to play all 3 specs like mage/warlock do

[leaden prairie]

How often do you get frustrated in keys

[short radish]

dependent on the fight

[leaden prairie]

Cause you have CDs and tank isn't chaining

[keen dome]

every pug key

[leaden prairie]

Or you have to hold for this pack or this

[tribal blade]

happens a lot as sub

[leaden prairie]

Etc

[keen dome]

or they decide to pull 2 guys

[tribal blade]

it's gonna happen even more on reset

[leaden prairie]

That's one of the thing that makes outlaw so enjoyable

So

I hope they never get ride of that

[tribal blade]

yeah i remember pushing as outlaw during SL

that was pretty fun

never think, just send

[leaden prairie]

Would probably happen more often if outlaw could use daggers

[short radish]

ye true

[leaden prairie]

Especially now with this turbo illv thing whatever

[tribal blade]

they should make that change for outlaw

[keen dome]

Delete weapon speed. Normalize them all.

[tribal blade]

that would be fire

[short radish]

let outlaws use daggers again

[tribal blade]

all 3 specs only use daggers

[keen dome]

Or just do 1h and 2h and delete the dag dif

[leaden prairie]

Like next week I have to decide if I'm upping outlaw or dagger weapon lol

[keen dome]

just delete the dag speed and remove it from ability rquirements!

[leaden prairie]

And in theory you would need to wait 3 weeks

[short radish]

or just normalise attack speed procs

[leaden prairie]

To upgrade outlaw weapon

[keen dome]

you'd still have auto-attack stuff but ye that'd be fine!

[leaden prairie]

If you were playing assa in raid or whatever

For lura

It's kinda crazy

Or idk

I feel like this turbo ilvl thing

Bricks your entire season

If you up the wrong spec lol

[keen dome]

Weapon restrictions outside of 1h / 2h in this version of WoW continue to be very nonsensical imo

[leaden prairie]

If I up outlaw weapon I can't play dagger specs anymore and if I up a dagger it's useless ilvl on law

[keen dome]

much like the lack of a poison toggle, it just makes the game stupider

[leaden prairie]

This new turbo ilvl thing is gonna be weird

[keen dome]

It is. I think it's a better approach than EVERY slot having something

But it obviously has this issue

[leaden prairie]

I'm glad this Tier I think outlaw is good on lura so my season isn't bricked

If I had to up a dagger

Idk lol

[tribal blade]

there isn't really much downtime on lura

[leaden prairie]

Season is legit over

Like imagine having a dagger on law upped when you do keysz and then the week after you have to up a chest to not troll raid prog still

[alpine wraith]

i didnt manage to confirm

[leaden prairie]

And then maybe the week after you finally killed lura

[alpine wraith]

but maybe they are not gatedç

by 1 a week

[leaden prairie]

You can up a outlaw weapon

But you have a dagger off hand upped Ilvl that is worth nothing

It's kinda xdd I'm ngl

[leaden prairie]

I mean even if it's 2 a week

[keen dome]

You can't upgrade a non-weapno, non-trinket slot as far as I could see?

[leaden prairie]

It's kinda the same

[alpine wraith]

as the wording says they begin dropping

[tribal blade]

i haven't looked into it, how many do you get a week?

[keen dome]

It's just weapon / trinkets.

[alpine wraith]

and it also works on hc items

so yea

like dawnflux

[leaden prairie]

Oh really

[alpine wraith]

just slam m+

[leaden prairie]

Well it doesn't change much

You would still upgrade weapon trinkets trinket

Before off hand

[keen dome]

There's two systems. Bonus rolls where we get 2 a week. And then the upgrade item for weapons / trinkets which upgrades a heroic / myth item by 9 iLevels.

[keen dome]

ye, 100%

[leaden prairie]

Or you are inting hard

Also it's for slot right ? Not specific item

[keen dome]

The bonus rolls begin immediately. The upgrade part is a complete unknown. The wording makes it SOUND timegated.

[leaden prairie]

Please ?

[keen dome]

It's for the slot

[leaden prairie]

Ok good

[alpine wraith]

yea only blizz knows

[keen dome]

I don't believe there's a dif from trink / wepapon

[tribal blade]

do you need to start anything to get the bonus rolls?

[keen dome]

I think it's literally just an item you slap on one of those 4 slots

[leaden prairie]

I see

Wait what

[keen dome]

just the domnaar buddy in Voidstorm weekly quests iirc, and then buy from him

[tribal blade]

yeah you use it on that slot and it's unable to upgrade anymore past that point

[leaden prairie]

So you use it on maind hand slot

[alpine wraith]

like it reads like you can farm them

[leaden prairie]

And it upgrade main hand ?

[keen dome]

The item yeah

[leaden prairie]

Any item in here

Or what

So both dagger and outlaw weapon?

[keen dome]

Sorry a better way to phrase it

You can use it to upgrade WEAPONS and TRINKETS

[tribal blade]

nah just the specific item

not slot

[keen dome]

Not the slot. I wasn't clear.

[minor trout]

what u guys think for m+ outlaw > sub after patch?

[leaden prairie]

Soo

[keen dome]

Your concern is real, yeah

[leaden prairie]

And then once my 2 trinkets are upgraded

Can I upgrade other trinkets

[tribal blade]

also iirc don't upgrade anything that isn't fully upgraded/myth track

[keen dome]

Yeah

[tribal blade]

or else you brick that item

[keen dome]

With more of the item

[leaden prairie]

Ugh

What

[keen dome]

I think we get more than 4 total but it's a complete unknown 'cos of the wording

[leaden prairie]

That'd terrible

[keen dome]

Let me go get some pictures.

[leaden prairie]

If you multispec you are legit cooked?

There is no way it's not at least working like normal gear upgrade no

Once I upgraded both trinket slot

[leaden prairie]

I can upgrade any trinket

Otherwise it would be so mega cooked

[keen dome]

See that blurb.

[leaden prairie]

This doesn't seem good

[keen dome]

So it's effectively taking a max'd Myth 289 and making it 298

[tribal blade]

max stack 5

[leaden prairie]

Also this whole thing just made me think they could fix a lot of gear issues from multispeccing if we were upgrading slots instead of items

[keen dome]

Yeah I woudln't read into that, it's just grabbed from wowhead.

[tribal blade]

so we know for sure you get 5 minimum

[leaden prairie]

Yee

[keen dome]

because:

[leaden prairie]

It's gonna be bad

Very bad

I don't envy people that are raiding a bit late

[leaden prairie]

That have to use it for mythic prog

[keen dome]

MAybe you get 1 shard a week?

[leaden prairie]

And are completely cucked for keys

[keen dome]

Who knows! Blizz aren't clear about it and it's annoying

[keen dome]

Honestly yeah

Which is how it works for normal gear but this system is dumb

Because it's an arbitary layer on top

[leaden prairie]

No

It doesn't work like that for normal gear

I do mean slot

Like I upgrade my main hand slot

Anything I put in main hand

Is upped to x ilvl

Which is basically what we have rn kinda but not really

[tribal blade]

that would be the better way to do it

for sure

[keen dome]

Remove tiers from gear and just have it be on your character, yeah

[leaden prairie]

Items upgrade only cost golds now so it's not a relevant cost

It's just annoying for slots like weapons when you multispec

[keen dome]

it is

[leaden prairie]

And trinkets reigns

Rings

[keen dome]

I mean I think a better solution to weapnos is just deleting the fucking weapon speeds or normalizing them so you can use whatever you want weaponwise.

Trinkets are another whole kettle of fish though that isn't solved by that.

[leaden prairie]

I mean

[keen dome]

I think your idea is neat, though. It'd def be an interesting shift for the game

[leaden prairie]

The real solution is outlaw should use daggers main hand

So it's not cuked by crafts

[keen dome]

Yeah

[leaden prairie]

Tho I say that but for the past 3 seasons I got an outlaw weapon from raid cause no one wants it

Because they all crafts weapons

[keen dome]

Haha

[leaden prairie]

So I always get a mythic weapons from raid and I'm saved that way

Litteraly every tier

[tribal blade]

dagger is the same from raid

only rogues can use it

win win

[leaden prairie]

Ye

[tribal blade]

and SV isn't a real spec

[leaden prairie]

I actually didn't drop a dagger this tier

[keen dome]

Can't wait for the rogue tank spec to need a sword MH and then I too have to make the decision every season

[leaden prairie]

Had to craft one week 2

Or was it 3 idk

Week 3

For alleria prog

[tribal blade]

got one on our 1st vor kill

lucky

[leaden prairie]

First time in a few tier I actually craft a dagger

Funny

Usually I just drop one from raid

And it's just better to hold craft weapon for rogue

[tribal blade]

have the stealthi luck of having 2 myth daggers insta on week 1 of prog

[leaden prairie]

Ye happened to me last tier

Not last tier uh

Or was it last tier

Wtf was that spider boss guy

That shit webs

[fallow nimbus]

Weapons should work like the legion artifacts. 1 item splits into mh and oh for dual wield

[leaden prairie]

From his asshole

[tribal blade]

ansurek?

[leaden prairie]

I think that was s2

Nah

[keen dome]

loomthar

it was a moth

[leaden prairie]

Ye that guy

[keen dome]

smh

[leaden prairie]

Uh

Ye big spider

Same thing no

[keen dome]

MOTH

[leaden prairie]

Ye

Big spider

[tribal blade]

LOL THE MOTH

[leaden prairie]

Hairy spider idk

[tribal blade]

ok fair

kinda spider looking

[leaden prairie]

Ok I mean

Looks like a spider

I'm ngl

[tribal blade]

it does yeah

[leaden prairie]

Ok it has lil feather things

But

[keen dome]

lookit those antenna

it's a moth!

[alpine wraith]

spider moth

[leaden prairie]

Antenna trinket

First vault

Easy enough

[keen dome]

Love that trinket

little moth buddy on my head

[leaden prairie]

Funny

I know that song in french

It actually sounds weird in english

It'd better in french

It rhyme in french

[tribal blade]

did they fix atrophic or is someone gaslighting me

[leaden prairie]

It doesn't stack

[keen dome]

They fixed it a while back to not stack, yeah

I wanna say during S1 TWW?

[tribal blade]

ah ok

i missed that fix then

[keen dome]

Maybe S2?

[leaden prairie]

Ye

Idk whenn

Don't remember

[tribal blade]

it definitely used to before yeah

[leaden prairie]

Uh

[keen dome]

We were discussing it a lot at one point in here and then it got fixed

It worked on Fyrakk

[leaden prairie]

When was galywix

[short radish]

s2 tww

[leaden prairie]

They fixed it ptr that tier I think

Iirc

[keen dome]

S2, yeah.

[leaden prairie]

Or no I think it actually worked that tier

Ye

I remember

[tribal blade]

yeah that was when i found out about it

because did a bunch of x2 rogue keys that season

[leaden prairie]

Ye I'm pretty sure it worked that tier still

[tribal blade]

with edude

[keen dome]

Maybe during S2 then? Maybe S3.

[leaden prairie]

They fixed it for the next tier

[keen dome]

What if it isn't fixed and we just forgot

[leaden prairie]

Or end of tier

No it's fixed

[keen dome]

I think it got fixed during S2 at some point. Oh! I know when

[leaden prairie]

The timeline is a bit fuzzy

[keen dome]

it was when we got the comedy double aura buff

In 11.1.5 or w/e.

[leaden prairie]

Also it's funny

I watched max

And he was saying that it never stacked

[short radish]

fuck max

[leaden prairie]

He was like, "ye they fixed it before raid went live"

"Could you imagine if it wasn't fixed rogue would have been op"

[tribal blade]

that reminds me of when JPC spread some fake news about rogue stuff to max

and everyone in here was losing their minds

[keen dome]

haha

[leaden prairie]

Ye bro it was working for legit 5 tiers

And you never brought more than one rogue

[keen dome]

We have the logs from a few iirc

it's funny

[leaden prairie]

I can't believe these world firsts guilds didn't know about it

It's crazy to me

[short radish]

max would never say something wrong and then double down on it

[keen dome]

Secret rogue hate

[tribal blade]

i swear people really don't know jack shit about rogue

[keen dome]

Now the play is actually 16 rogues

[tribal blade]

and it makes sense

last played class in the game

[keen dome]

but there aren't that many rogues in the world

[short radish]

yeah but surely jpc or exile must have told him at one point

[tribal blade]

lol no idea

[leaden prairie]

Anywya I need to sleep bb sub chat

[short radish]

sleep well french king

[modest river]

lul

[keen dome]

but it's 9am

[tribal blade]

i wonder when the next tuning/changes will come and max will see sub rogue, start reading it and then go "i have no idea what this means" and then skip to the next spec

[leaden prairie]

10

[keen dome]

my point stands

[leaden prairie]

Idk I broke my sleep schedule

Happens

[short radish]

i am #1 max hater

[leaden prairie]

I will wake up just in time for raid

[short radish]

i just wish gingi wasn't an objectively worse person

[leaden prairie]

It's like Im morning raiding

Kinda cool

[short radish]

so i could cheer for echo

[tribal blade]

i like max but he does some very annoying things like that sometimes

[keen dome]

Mornign raiding is cool

[tribal blade]

it just sucks when you know the devs hang on his every word

[short radish]

and the entire wow community

[tribal blade]

exactly

and then he pays absolutely 0 attention to your spec

which just spreads

[keen dome]

We should become vocal streamers

[tribal blade]

at least now he gets a person to talk about stuff from each class

to cover stuff he doesn't know

[keen dome]

When is Zac gonna go on and talk about rogue

[tribal blade]

but there was a while where he would quite literally never go over a single sub thing when reading it by himself

[short radish]

same with dratnos and spreading the sub rogue funnel propaganda

[tribal blade]

that one hurt a lot

we're still carrying those scars to this day

[leaden prairie]

I can't talk

I'm mute

[tribal blade]

damn

actually?

[leaden prairie]

No

[tribal blade]

damn

you got me

[leaden prairie]

Ye

[tribal blade]

i'm actually deaf

[keen dome]

Just do it entirely in french, imo.

[leaden prairie]

I just don't like talking

[keen dome]

Valid, same.

[leaden prairie]

Full deaf?

[tribal blade]

nah i was memeing

i can hear everythign

[leaden prairie]

Ah gege

You got me

[tribal blade]

lol

[leaden prairie]

I couldn't be deaf

Music is so cool

I could be mute

I could lose my legs

But deaf

Hell nah

[tribal blade]

i think blind for me

is the scary one

[leaden prairie]

Ye blind

[tribal blade]

have you tried getting around with your eyes closed in the dark

holy fucking shit

that shit is hard af

[leaden prairie]

I mean blind for anyone would be the worse

So

[tribal blade]

yeah

[leaden prairie]

If I went blind idk

Would prolly kill myself no cap

Tf do you do

I can't play wow anymore ?

Nowae

[tribal blade]

yeah you're extremely limited

in what you can do

i think it's a lot better for people born blind

they don't know what they're missing

[leaden prairie]

I guess I could spend my time reading

Idk

It just sounds kinda boring

Everything that is entertaining is kinda dependant on seeing it

[vital flax]

has anything changed in the sims? Deathstalker simmed 3-4% ahead for me yesterday and now its basically even with tricksters and ive only upgraded my legs in ilvl

[leaden prairie]

Not music I guess

[tribal blade]

prob just podcasts and music

[tribal blade]

we'll be playing trickster on reset

100%

unless cloud cover is insanely bugged

[short radish]

[tribal blade]

but even then just use the other talent lol

AND i just realized parsing is about to become "didn't crit enough during blades gg"

[keen dome]

back to the rng mines

[tribal blade]

unironically yeah

i think aoe will have a much healthier stable dmg pattern

because storm is many different hits and has far more crit chance

ST burst dmg is gonna be big crits on strikes=big dam

[vital flax]

ohhhh never saw those changes uhh. So our stats become crit haste until breakpoint into mastery vers?

[tribal blade]

basically don't want vers

hit ~700 haste

~800 if you're not playing guidon

and then the rest into crit then mast

[vital flax]

so i should recraft everything from haste mast to crit haste

[tribal blade]

prob safe to do so yeah

[upper narwhal]

Makes swapping between Assa and sub feel nicer

[tribal blade]

it will for sure

[vital flax]

Do we delay the second dance in blade so we can fit the secondd sec tec in it or nah just send it immediatly once the first one ends

[charred pawn]

So my assa gear crit haste lower-ish mastery sounds pretty dope for sub this reset

Mood improved

[tribal blade]

in lust you should have no issue doing so, just send 2nd dance when blades is ~8 secs left on cd

don't worry about supercharging it

[vital flax]

yeah lust is easy but without lust

do we delay or just send it

[tribal blade]

hell yeah

[tribal blade]

just follow the same rule

[indigo aspen]

Are there any sub changes coming on reset? Didn’t see anything

[tribal blade]

#subtlety message

@short radish in before forgetting that strike w/o premed on pull only gives 2 CP

and mindlessly send sectec

[weak horizon]

for dungeon slice do we disable bloodlust and other buffs we're likely not to receive? Or does dungeon slice account for likely having 2 lusts per an entire key?

Just don't know if it's simming an entire dungeon or like 5 minutes or something like that

[dry flame]

holy yap

i agree that the bard part dilutes the convo

[keen dome]

Bard should go to hunter

Because I want a rogue tank

[dry flame]

Hunter should be AT LEAST two different classes imo

they are absolute schizos

the archer archetype is not the same as the hunter/trapper

[keen dome]

Warden, my beloved class I would never swap too but think about

[vale pine]

tinkerer and warden

both idk if they ever come to wow

[keen dome]

Yeah I don't think new classes will happen

[tribal blade]

i'm of the opinion wow has enough specs, they need to do more work on the existing ones rather than making more and creating even more issues with giving attention

[keen dome]

It's gonna be new specs

Just give the mono DPS a hybrid role (healer or DPS) and bam solved

[vale pine]

possible, but we don't rly have any class in need of another spec

[keen dome]

ROGUE????

[plush trout]

taking into account that we will not be taking premed anymore for sub when the new patch launches, now will u still want to enter sd with full cd or enter with 0 and ST for clone proc?

[vale pine]

what spec would you add to rogue?

[keen dome]

tank

[dry flame]

I want wow 2 so bad, so we can reset all the classes/specs 🙁

[vale pine]

if anything

[keen dome]

But i don't disagree with prophet at all.

I'd rather they refine existing stuff

[vale pine]

i think reworking specs entirely would be more benfitial

[weak horizon]

for dungeon slice should I disable optimal raid buffs, or at least disable bloodlust? I'm not 100% sure how dungeon slice accounts for bloodlust

[vital flax]

didnt they just rework pretty much all spec?

[tribal blade]

that would be dope

[vale pine]

bloodlust is the one thing you have consistently in m+

but you usually dissable other raid buffs

[weak horizon]

kk

ty

[fleet wharf]

didnt we get wow 2 with midnight? they simplified every class/spec

[vital flax]

we're kinda on wow 3-4 by now lol

[fleet wharf]

yea, true. Also, look at what they did to OW, you really don't want wow 2

[untold summit]

anyone here to analyze a log for me? i dont understand some things

[dry flame]

i technically that's like... wow 4? xD

[fleet wharf]

try !log

[short radish]

more like wow 0.5

[dry flame]

but i meant actual reset

[fleet wharf]

it's wow 1 because that's the number of fingers you need to play specs now with the 1 button rotation

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tsss-drum-band-gif-7320811

[untold summit]

!log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/rzAXvpFcw6aM2D37

[marble comet]

will we get big dmg on 12.0.5

[velvet bear]

So with 12.0.5 are we playing Deathstalker and not Trickster anymore?

[kind edge]

Guys sorry if this was asked before, not checking discord for 2 days and i already scrolled up trying to find if someone asked.

If we keep prem with the new build, how much dps loss it is in %?

Opener wo it seems awful

[keen dome]

yes

[keen dome]

i don't believe so, I think it's still trickster.

[keen dome]

1% I think?

[velvet bear]

True, I misread. It's still Trickster as Fazed is buffed

[keen dome]

Yep

[dry flame]

you can sim on reset and check for sure for your character @kind edge

[kind edge]

Well, i can pay that 1% ifs that low

[velvet bear]

Happy though since I don't like Deathstalker on Sub

[marble comet]

i got mythic dagger in vault back in the days so i go for crafted wrist + belt with embelishment?

or what is my second embelishment?

[frank wolf]

Youre telling me the recommended talent build after changes are no more first dance and no more premed?

[outer orchid]

first dance is likely discretion

[void ocean]

so is DS gonnabe good on anything after changes?

[outer orchid]

prob not

[tribal blade]

in the gutter as it should be

[void ocean]

so we dont use the new switcharoo

spell

[tribal blade]

you know i think this has happened so many times with DS and trickster

where it's looking like DS is gonna be the move

and then either because people refuse to play it or blizz does changes

trickster becomes way better again

we've barely needed to play DS at all

[frank wolf]

What is discretion twin

[tribal blade]

use it based on the situation

i'm guessing x1 finality is pulling ahead because we'll be running more crit

[frank wolf]

Oh like literally at discretion i thought it was a talent i couldnt find

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly lol

it's honestly a win if finality sims better

you don't need to worry about proccing TFD

just play

[frank wolf]

I mean yeah not having to micro manage that is W

But lowkey first dance was my psuedo guidon

[tribal blade]

yeah for sure

but i was running keys w/o TFD for quite a while

seemed fine

[void ocean]

so u guys think sub will outperform assa in high keys?

[lusty acorn]

Street saying class tunning today drop!

[lusty acorn]

After buff i think yes

[verbal kelp]

When we get the 298 upgrade next week, we send it on MH dagger right?

[lusty acorn]

Som1 sayed yes

After mh trinket

[verbal kelp]

So probably order is crafted dagger - guidon - gaze?

[plush roost]

A shame too, 1100 haste DS is legit insanely fun

So much rotational variety from quietus and forcing apex on Dn and superchargers

[short radish]

Always 1 week of some DS tech discovered before trickster gets buffed

[tribal blade]

i'm actually kinda sad i never got to try it!

[fossil forge]

Whats good vanish usage in dungeons rn

Canceling griffin stun

Cancel beam in skyreach

[verbal kelp]

Why you think that?

[fossil forge]

Is there any more tech rn

[verbal kelp]

Doesn’t it go on someone else?

[fossil forge]

I am not sure

Pretty sure as long as it doesnt hit me it doesnt concern me

[vale pine]

mh dagger ye

[plush roost]

Vanish subjugators leech and chains in seat, entropic leech in nexus, engineer circles in nexus

[fossil forge]

O shit u can vanish the circles fr?

i always use cloak

[plush roost]

Its considered a snare ye

[tribal blade]

oh can you vanish both the chains AND leech?

are you holding vanish for those overlaps

also does it work with meld, i know you can meld the chains but can you meld the leech

[fossil forge]

@plush roost bossman have u tried the purple pot

Its kinda insane but its very luck based

Sometimes nothing spawns for 30sec and sometimes 5 silences on the floor

[pseudo fiber]

im like a bit depressed about my damage tbh. is this what subs do rn? or am i doing smth terribly wrong? this is an AA 18

[livid wing]

Nothing wrong that sub bro

around 18-20 swap as assa or outlow

[pseudo fiber]

even with buffs inc on wed?

[vivid phoenix]

Nah be a gigachad and stay sub

[livid wing]

Im taking like 3Hrs to be taken in 15 as rogue atm =X

[fossil forge]

Having a squad helps a Lot

[pseudo fiber]

do we have a calced overall % for wednesdays buffs for m+

[fossil forge]

no1 likes yellow class..

[livid wing]

Yes i know but i alwayse play as pug GRP and doing top 1% war arms but feel so poor as rogue

[frank wolf]

Yep check pinned, roughly 6% aoe

[vivid phoenix]

Ye if you cannot guilt trip your homies you dont get invites. Maybe for Aa because of shroud

[pseudo fiber]

that's still ass man, compared to that ret damage

so assa is the way to roll then...

[small sleet]

we're not good at outputting overall damage on aa, but you can still be really useful in that dungeon

[frank wolf]

Its not just about overall - sub dmg is very frontloaded, which is important in academy. Lots of big packs that need to die immediately

Also idk how much more/less pala benefits from raid buffs in ur group

[small sleet]

i havent checked myself but i heard shaman buff is crazy for paladin right now? and warrior buff is obviuosly good for them too

[frank wolf]

That and could be a gear diff. Are you a member of the no box no guidon club per chance

[pseudo fiber]

i have both, box myht and guidon hc

currently running guidon

[small sleet]

i mean 158k overall in aa is solid for sub

[frank wolf]

Must be nice

[pseudo fiber]

is assa doin so much more damage tho?

[small sleet]

yeah, but if you ignore hungry lasher damage id assume its closer

[livid wing]

Not really ass suck as Mono target but in high lvl you bring cleave on boss so yeah

[vivid phoenix]

and you have prio dmg

[pseudo fiber]

that was my thinkin as well

prio > all in highkeys

[vivid phoenix]

you need at least 1 dd who has good prio

[livid wing]

Sub going to get some with the new patch but you have to use aoe dmg to cleave so is not that good as assa

[frank wolf]

Ret is prio now ICANT

[small sleet]

idk i just really wouldnt care too much about overall in aa

like on first boss, if the lashers are gonna die in time, pressing black powder is grief

but if you dont black powder, your overall is tanked for the rest of the dungeon

[frank wolf]

Lmao legit first boss is pad damage arms race of agony

[pseudo fiber]

ill give assa a shot

[livid wing]

Sub > asa in short pack

[pseudo fiber]

im world 30 sub rog kekw

[livid wing]

Asa > sub in high key with 10+ mobs

[pseudo fiber]

should be enough of a goal

[livid wing]

For me is not a issu to be sub the real one is to be invit in M+

xD

[void ocean]

i like assa prio dmg in m+

[vivid phoenix]

try to aim for groups with warris. idk why but in those keys i was not useless as sub

[void ocean]

every pack has that one bih purple guy u wanna drop ur envenoms on

[frank wolf]

Counter argument dot specs are cringe

[small sleet]

shaman buff is even more important than warrior buff for us

[vivid phoenix]

ok fair. My homies plays rshaman so i often forget shammy

[frank wolf]

I filter dungeon finder by “has shaman”

[fathom adder]

so its prio because of the envenoms?

[small sleet]

deathmark/kingsbane too

[tribal blade]

spamming envenoms that are buffed by up to +20% more agi with scent while both of sin's major cds are completely ST

[fathom adder]

makes sense

ty

[tribal blade]

basically they were like "sub's funnel is a problem" and then gave it to sin

stellar

[olive canyon]

i have a low rate of success with finding good warriors

its a trap

[dry flame]

but dont forget the funnel splashes dmg to nearby (but its also not pad, unlike bad padding sub)

[tribal blade]

YUP

so the aoe is completely ethical

[vivid phoenix]

it not pad iof they have to die

[small sleet]

i think ive only gotten to play with warrior like 2 or 3 times this season and ive been let down each time

[tribal blade]

i know a bunch of good ones

[lilac stag]

When Sub could funnel tanks didn’t know how to pull for it.

[tribal blade]

one's in my guild

[dry flame]

solution - make BP having us explode the targeted mob, then its not pad

[small sleet]

yeah i know warrior is crazy good, and i have some crazy good warriors in my guild, i just havent gotten a chance to play with em unfortunately

[dry flame]

Call it Boom de Grace

[tribal blade]

one day 😉

[lilac stag]

so it would have helped sub rogues more of I kept on the warrior.

[dry flame]

at this point, which specs didn't get funnel at one point or another (because Sub's one was too strong)

in SL, frost mage and Ele Sham had insane funnel

[tribal blade]

blizz is like that

[small sleet]

@pseudo fiber idk if youre still around, but i opened the log of that aa run because i was curious about what the ret was doin to get that high of an overall, and i noticed a couple of things you could change about the first pull to get a lot more damage in on it if you're interested. sorry for offering unsolicited advice, but ive spent a fair bit of time looking at different logs of that pull so i figured id at least offer what ive found if you're interested

[tribal blade]

blizz will say 1 thing and then turn around and give that same thing to someone else

and better

see sub funnel

and also shroud was a big problem so they made it basically useless but then gave classes like priests WAY better shroud on a much shorter cd

[vivid phoenix]

you mean they see something rogue is good at. We loose it and some other class gets the same thing

grr blizzord

[tribal blade]

pretty much yeah

[west arch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[short radish]

and mages

🙂

[tribal blade]

AND MAGES

but mages get everything

[dry flame]

yeah was just gonna say

and their raid buff wasnt removed like ours

You know what else grinds my gear? How come rogue cheat death became the worst cheat death in the game now?

[small sleet]

so that elusiveness enjoyers can stay winning

[tribal blade]

rogue is the OG class on a lot of things that have eventually become the worst in the game

[vivid phoenix]

hey slow down buddy

i need my 20% dr on feint

[dry flame]

I remember in HFC (old i know), CD was 3 min and there were several bosses where you would intentionally rotate kill soaks every 3 min

[small sleet]

i wont run cheat death unless i feel like elusiveness is completely unnecessary at this point

[dry flame]

and Cloak was 1 min CD, while giving full imunity for the whole thing - now its 2 min, but only first sec is full immunity

[tribal blade]

the cloak thing is another one

where DK got something better

[frank wolf]

E-elusiveness….? Blasphemy… heresy!!!

[dry flame]

DH too, arguably

[tribal blade]

netherwalk?

[vivid phoenix]

at this point im convinced, that dk and lock are the fav classes of blizz

[short radish]

mages/warlocks/hunters

[tribal blade]

they're definitely up there

[short radish]

DKs have been only a recent (last 2 expansions recent) favorite

[dry flame]

think so? dont play DH, but they had 1 min CD immunity, right?

[small sleet]

really i feel like lock is super clunky/outdated in a lot of ways

[tribal blade]

yeah DKs were shit on before

[short radish]

also @tribal blade do you remember when cheat death debuff would go away upon battle res?

[tribal blade]

lol you should see that chart where lock was the top dps for some crazy amount of tiers in a row

[vivid phoenix]

ye the time i started rerolling from dk to other classes dk suddenly becomes completly op

[tribal blade]

I DO NOT

that sounds fire

[frank wolf]

Favorites conversation with no paladin mentioned

[tribal blade]

lol unfortunate timing

[short radish]

somewhere around here i think

[tribal blade]

holy shit it got tripled

that's crazy

[short radish]

yeah

it was really really strong

[tribal blade]

and it's the OG cheat too

yeah that's too strong

[short radish]

then they realised that mages wasn't as strong

[tribal blade]

every 2 mins is mental

[short radish]

so they nerfed ours to be in line with mage

🙂

[dry flame]

So:

• Funnel removed, other specs/classes get way better ones
• Raid buff removed
• Cheat Death nerfed - other classes way better ones
• Cloak nerfed - other classes get way better ones
• Shroud nerfed (invis detection/dungeon design) - other classes get way better ones
• Evasion pretty much useless nowadays unless group fails
• Feint Nerfed (only thing keeping us in the game atm)

what else?

[tribal blade]

i think feint is still really really good

low key extremely good

[dry flame]

They removed the old shuriken build with range finisher

[short radish]

yeah feint is really really good

[dry flame]

yeah, still nerfed tho 😄

[tribal blade]

some would say feint is OP, but we don't say that here

[short radish]

imagine if we had elusiveness AND cheat death

[tribal blade]

i'm gonna nut

[tribal blade]

but yeah solid list

[short radish]

only melee class without an aoe stun im pretty sure

[tribal blade]

evasion should be a 1 min cd

for what it does

[short radish]

hurr durr rogue has longest ST stun in the game though

oh yeah

you know what's really fun

2nd boss pit

[dry flame]

only class with only melee dps options and 0 alternatives

[short radish]

you can't evasion

but you CAN parry it

so warriors can Die by the sword it

[small sleet]

u can evasion pit boss

[short radish]

or w/e it is

[short radish]

do not gaslamp me

[small sleet]

u mean like during the fixate portion?

[short radish]

i have tried and died

[vivid phoenix]

u can evasion

[tribal blade]

i think you can def evasion it

[small sleet]

it for sure works

[dry flame]

apparently unreliable

[tribal blade]

you msut have been at a weird angle haha

[dry flame]

i've gotten hit before

[small sleet]

as long as you are facing straight towards the boss the whole time it should be pretty reliable

[tribal blade]

it's weird like that with evasion, you need to make sure you're standing COMPLETELY towards the boss

[dry flame]

i think Zero was doing it one of his runs and he got clapped hard

[tribal blade]

if you turn slightly you can get hit

i've learnt that lesson on previous seasons

[short radish]

[tribal blade]

i'm guessing if you're dodging shit on the ground you'll get hit

[small sleet]

i havent gotten punished yet at least, so i'll keep doing it til i get burnt lmao

[tribal blade]

so when you evasion just backpedal

[small sleet]

i just backpedal the whole time

[tribal blade]

to avoid stuff

i've had it before where i evasioned something and died and then realized it was because i turned slightly

was mega tilted

[dry flame]

just be paladin and bop someone else while also bubbling urself 🙂

[tribal blade]

fucking paladins

[dry flame]

while giving devo aura, which works on all dmg

[tribal blade]

i'll tell you what

it's impossible to find a ret who actually plays the way a ret should play

they're supposed to be a pseudo healer in the group

but not a single ret plays that way in keys

[short radish]

you've never played with me then

[tribal blade]

because they don't have 2 brain cells to rub together

[tribal blade]

HUGE

[short radish]

acutally i had that trained out of me when i was playing ret

in keys

because i mained hpal

[tribal blade]

hehe i've played with some actual god tier rets

[short radish]

so i'd always press heals until my mate was like "no stop that i want to heal" when i was playing ret

[tribal blade]

this one guy would coordinate everything with the healer in keys

he was so good

he would basically cover any dmg event the healer couldn't

so powerful

[short radish]

absolute mad lad

wogs are just such free healing

[tribal blade]

it was actually pretty cool to hear it happen in disc

was a priory too

so you can imagine how much healing is required

[short radish]

bro the amount of utility ret has compared to rogue

is so fucking crazy

it's acutally insane

[tribal blade]

most rets you see them doing insane overall but other than that they're doing nothing else

[small sleet]

maybe its just me, but i enjoy being on the lower end of available utility

[tribal blade]

yeah it's nuts

[short radish]

i do if i want to mongo bongo low keys

but anything high i just feel useless and helpless

[small sleet]

it makes it harder to get into groups, but sometimes its fun to turn brain off and ignore most things since nothings your problem to solve

[tribal blade]

ret has utility to negate like half of every dungeon's mechanics

[short radish]

first pulls sot

[livid blaze]

Can someone tell me if it is worth to hold the second dance during Blades so you get the empowered Cp for your second ST? or should you just send it?

[short radish]

freedom the healer every single time

[tribal blade]

YUP

[small sleet]

send second dance with 8 seconds left on blades

[tribal blade]

someone has the leech debuff wog them

[small sleet]

its fine to not supercharge it

[tribal blade]

OR sac them

dealer's choice

[livid blaze]

Okay thanks

[granite hinge]

So basically next reset we're going to swap from sin to sub in all content

[tribal blade]

yeah having a good ret in keys is actually really strong

[small sleet]

they'll still be super comparable in most forms of content

[tribal blade]

they can babysit a defensively weak spec the healer can't

[small sleet]

it comes down to which one you enjoy more especially on tuesday

[tribal blade]

sin likely stays best in keys

sub likely becomes best in raid

[small sleet]

sub will bring better burst aoe and pure single target to keys, but assa will bring better funnel, prio damage, and extended aoe in keys

[tribal blade]

but who knows

[small sleet]

at least i think sin does better extended aoe, not 100% sure on that one

[granite hinge]

I dont know that burst buff seems better

[small sleet]

really will depend on the other specs you run with

[granite hinge]

I enjoy all the specs in content rn

[tribal blade]

we gain burst but we don't gain more prio really

[small sleet]

if your comp has no prio, sin will be a more useful spec to play, but if it has prio covered, sub may be the better option

[tribal blade]

and sin's dmg profile in keys is extremely ethical

while also being very high output

[small sleet]

our st in keys will be top tier come tuesday im p sure

[tepid trellis]

[small sleet]

so that's at least one ethical benefit to sub rogue

[dry flame]

I like sin in keys, im not gonna shit talk it

I am just sad for sub

[red flame]

Our st in keys is already really high tbf

[storm maple]

without Prem sub is weird

[small sleet]

yeah, its the part i feel most useful in in keys. really only feels like a couple of the more meta specs outshine me in single target

[small sleet]

do we know how bad of a loss it is to run premed

im willing to lose 1-2% for premed if im being honest

[frank wolf]

Someone earlier said a percent

[small sleet]

fuck that they can have that %

[frank wolf]

Im willing to roll off of sub if its more than a percent

[small sleet]

i feel like for a significant portion of time i'd be losing the 1% i gain just from not being used to not having premed

but i also adapt kinda slowly to changes like that

[frank wolf]

Im too used to having full combo points coming out of a stealth shadowstrike

Imagine stealth shadowstrike into backstab hooooooly cringe

[storm maple]

burning all energy for 2 backstabs haha

[short radish]

i mean in keys it's shadowstrike -> shuri storm for full cp

[small sleet]

i just feel like id be in shadowblades, go to do my second shadow dance, see myself at at least 5 sht stacks, and just assume i'd get apex from my next generator

[short radish]

it's just raid where it's going to be cringe

but you could strike -> vanish -> strike

unless theres some vanish tech i dont know about

[small sleet]

they were saying its a dps loss to vanish on pull like that

[random mason]

Thats like current BtE resets on outlaw

Get a reset > still have to press a builder

[frank wolf]

Dude this NOT being the case just gave me chills

the bad kind

Yeah its a fuck that percent angle

[jade oasis]

im teaching my gf how to play wow and its so funny

she’s

like scared of the mobs while leveling

[short radish]

should play rogue then

perfect for that

[jade oasis]

she chose to be a demo lock

[short radish]

[jade oasis]

bc she wanted “a class like summoner in terraria”

[short radish]

just summon a pet

[lilac stag]

You want to vanish in blades between dances. Strike too good.

[short radish]

[hazy breach]

Its not the end of the world if you just vanish at the start anyway

Probably will just be recommending that anyway as its less confusing for people

and feels better

[short radish]

at the risk of being a massive pain of the ass... what's the dps % difference from vanishing on pull vs inbetween dance

sounds sub 1%?

[hazy breach]

Within margin

Or just outside of it

[small sleet]

if running premed is only 1% loss, it seems more logical to just run premed if you're not going for the absolute optimal sequence

[fossil forge]

it definitely feels nice to hit the 1 ss between dances in sb window though

[hazy breach]

Nah

[frank wolf]

Yah

[small sleet]

i mean like obviously its going to be a bigger loss than vanishing on pull, but i was just saying if you want a more qol sequence, taking the larger loss doesnt seem too bad

maybe its one of those things where once we get used to not having premed it doesnt feel painful to not have anymore though

[frank wolf]

If premed is wrong I dont want to be right

A percent is like a gem and a half. I can live without 1.2 sockets if it means having premed

[small sleet]

i swapped to panda from gnome a couple days ago, i can give up the gain i just got from that haha

[spice escarp]

but you have negative rizz as panda

[fossil forge]

wym

best feint animation in game

[frank wolf]

Speak for yourself bud

[fossil forge]

panda goes hard

[small sleet]

gnome is goated as fuck, but female panda is growing on me

[frank wolf]

My transmog on female panda is bis

[charred pawn]

I beg your finest pardon?

[keen dome]

???!!?!??!?!!??! Panda own

[small sleet]

i will say i miss gnome racial for keys more than i thought i would

[keen dome]

pandown

[small sleet]

1m cd root/slow removal is so good in this dungeon pool

[obsidian crag]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vivid phoenix]

wait we are not all playing female human??

[frank wolf]

Lowkey if panda lost their food racial tomorrow i would still stay panda

Based?

[charred pawn]

Nope, they kinda ruined my girl

[small sleet]

i mean thats based but i for sure wouldnt

[frank wolf]

I wouldnt either 🙏🏻 id go nelf

[spice escarp]

I once swapped to panda, swapped back as soon as i could

I hate it

[frank wolf]

Let me guess

Blood elf

[spice escarp]

Yes, male

[keen dome]

human 4 life because double hearthstone is very powerful for me specifically (and also transmog) but panda own

[frank wolf]

[spice escarp]

😎

[frank wolf]

How did he know

[small sleet]

🤮

[frank wolf]

MALE blood elf needs to be studied

[fossil forge]

im still maghar orc from last tier

[short radish]

also stun break 🙂

[keen dome]

yeah but I mean

[frank wolf]

Poop orc

[keen dome]

the double hearthstone charges? that's the thing

[fossil forge]

extra 225 mastery/crit in cds

its whatever but better than nothing

[frank wolf]

We have arcantina key now bro we have double hs at home 💯

[charred pawn]

Triple as hooman

[keen dome]

i need that too

[small sleet]

wouldnt you have to racial before using guidon though?

[keen dome]

I am very forgetful and stupid

[frank wolf]

What could you possibly be doing to need 3 hs charges 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[small sleet]

that kinda sucks, loses some of the duration

[fossil forge]

why would i

[keen dome]

be very forgetful, lazy and stupid. The trifecta of my power.

[fossil forge]

it has nothing to do with haste

[small sleet]

wont it choose between haste/mastery after you guidon?

i thought it chose from your highest 2 stats

[hazy breach]

That is indeed what it does

[small sleet]

ya cuz i know you have to use reck pot before guidon so i figured it'd be the same idea

[fossil forge]

so u guys are telling me ive been hastemaxxing without even knowing it

[small sleet]

LOL

[frank wolf]

RECK pot?!

[small sleet]

reck pot is way better in aoe

[frank wolf]

[hazy breach]

"way better" is pushing it

[frank wolf]

:lightspotential:

[hazy breach]

But if you are not using puzzlebox getting mastery from reck pot is better than agi yes

[fossil forge]

u guys are lying

used guidon first

[small sleet]

i havent figured out the numbers for higher targets but even at 2 target reck pot started being better for me

[hazy breach]

Its 50/50 between your two highest stats

[small sleet]

and it seems anecdotally that as the targets go up, reck pots value over lights potential keeps increasing

[hazy breach]

If you look over your logs youll probably find some haste ones

[small sleet]

i'm pretty good about hitting pot before guidon

[tribal blade]

i never simmed that, is it substantial?

[small sleet]

oh sorry you were talking to him

nvm

[frank wolf]

Imagine having guidon

[kind edge]

@hazy breach is bis list changing on next reset since we need a bit more crit?

[small sleet]

you have to change some options in sims to sim it, currently if you try to sim it, the sim will use guidon and reck pot at the same time, so it will give you haste

[hazy breach]

It will not

Use latest

[small sleet]

oh ok, sorry i didnt realize yall changed that

[frank wolf]

Yeah see reldo eleem said if i have box i should use lights potential

[fossil forge]

i just rolled it 4 times and i got mastery every time

highroll ig

[frank wolf]

Calculated btw 🙏🏻

I knew it all along 🙏🏻

[small sleet]

is there a way to sim >10 targets? i assume its possible im just not sure how to do it

[hazy breach]

Yes but the results arent meaningfully changing

As everything we have is softcapped at 8 anyway

[small sleet]

yeah i was just curious so i could look at different options, not just necessarily reck pot

eleem you might be the best person to ask this question, i brought this up a couple weeks ago but no one seemed to be certain: since you can enter first pull of algethar with 4 extra supercharged combo points, is it still worth it to apex every single supercharged finisher or does the fact you're losing black powder casts in blades begin to overtake it