subtlety

[hallow mortar]

I think race ends today

[mint swift]

I'd be surprised if it doesn't

[keen dome]

Tomrorow at a maximum. Either Liquid kill it during this time or echo wake up and kill it imo

[hallow mortar]

If echo lose this one too they may aswell call it i think 😄

[keen dome]

Or my world first pug group SWOOPS IN and takes the crown

[mint swift]

I'd be pleasantly surrised if it goes on longer tho

[keen dome]

lmao, it really is just "we kill the egg before anyoen gets mechanics"

I love pugs

[vale osprey]

According to like every caster and analyst from both NA and EU this doesn't seem like the opinion. Is this just vibes based?

[hallow mortar]

Its based on that liquid won like 4 races in row or something

[tribal blade]

last 3

[hallow mortar]

About to be 4 if echo dont improve soon 😄

[tribal blade]

i wouldn't say echo is struggling more than liquid

[hallow mortar]

I did not watch it so idk

[tribal blade]

liquid had a really bad night until around the end when they started getting some real P3 prog in

[hallow mortar]

I wish they win this time

[vale osprey]

That's what I'm saying, in this race in isolation the opinion seems to be they're playing better than Liquid on Lu'ra. Much more consistent p1s before nerf, liquid have had their time post-nerf now it'll be Echo's turn to slingshot a bit most likely

[vale osprey]

Why are you speaking on it then? This is insanity lmao

[tribal blade]

the last race was so neck and neck it could have been either guild

[keen dome]

Someone gave me shit for not solo soaking on heroic balo'ren and then next pull I do it and someone dies because I solo soaked.

[tribal blade]

even max said he would have big congratulated echo if they won because dimmy was that hard

[hallow mortar]

Echo was under 1% when they went to bedge

[tribal blade]

hahaha

[keen dome]

It's why I never solo soak in pugs

Because you WILL kill people

But people love giving other people shit haha

[tribal blade]

on lura?

[hallow mortar]

On dimmy

[tribal blade]

ah

[hallow mortar]

I think they had like two sub 1% pulls

[twin surge]

no they went to bed becasue liquid killed after echo wiped sub 1% twice

they decided its over anyways better to wake up and come back and kill it

[tribal blade]

yeah was gonna say

don't remember it like that

[keen dome]

Both teams played so insane on Dimensius, tbh

[hallow mortar]

They gave method chance for second place

[tribal blade]

yeah both teams did really well

[tribal blade]

nobody cares about 2nd place

[hallow mortar]

I bet method would care 😄

[tribal blade]

the RWF especially don't care about 2nd place

well i should say echo and liquid

don't care

[hallow mortar]

Method invested all the money to try get back in race with them

That they can't afford live event anymore 😄

[keen dome]

Heroic Baloren is fascinating because it's such a short fight with very simple mechanics.

And people can't do them

[hallow mortar]

Isn't it one phase egg burn

[keen dome]

That's the pug strat yeah

Expressly because people can't do the exceedingly simple mechanics

[hallow mortar]

When i saw logs it looked like most guild strat

[keen dome]

Maybe pugs have adapted it from early guild kills then

[hallow mortar]

I played it on ptr only

[keen dome]

the mechanics are really really easy. Block quills. Soak pools. Clear orbs. Kill adds. nuke boss then dance around an egg.

[rotund terrace]

It's painful sometimes when people put the soak in the wrong place, die to soaking wrong colour mechanics, or taking quills out 🥲

[keen dome]

Yeah

It's fascinating because it is such a simple fight.

[tribal blade]

the people who suck at playing wow will always find a way to suck

[keen dome]

It's very much the same as Fraciltus Heroic

A boss that simply requires you to be able to count to 5.

[tribal blade]

it's easier than frac i think

[rotund terrace]

I just don't get why if you're pugging, with no exp, watch a video man, its gonna be like 4 minutes tops to show the fight

[tribal blade]

mechanics wise

[keen dome]

Harder DPS check

[keen dome]

Right??

[tribal blade]

for sure

[keen dome]

Mechanics wise it's easier you only have to count to 2.

[rotund terrace]

I get people learn better by playing the fight, but at least watching a video explains what happens, what to do and when, and when to send cds

[tribal blade]

i have a bias towards liquid because my guild is NA, but ngl i'm low key hoping echo pulls it off because the celebration after losing 3 in a row and finally winning would be legendary

[keen dome]

You should still have a theory fo the fight. People learn differently but having an idea of mechanics goes a long way.

I learn best by doing the fights, but I also write out a guide for them to use when pugging and adjust after seeing it.

Now I'm in a group that is resetting the damage meter on egg phases to check egg damage....

[exotic steeple]

you guys think blizz has a raid guild too

[tribal blade]

lol hell no

[exotic steeple]

if yes they prolly dont have rogue in their roaster

[keen dome]

They need ot copy FF14's system

Where the in-house team has to clear all content before it can be released

[tribal blade]

it should be mandatory for the blizz devs to have raid teams and clear the raid on mythic until they get CE

[keen dome]

Even the art guys??

[tribal blade]

nah haha

[keen dome]

Man do I just hold cooldowns for egg phase

[tribal blade]

only ones in charge of important things

[keen dome]

Or do I send on pull

[tribal blade]

honestly no idea

[keen dome]

well good news or me

[small vortex]

depends when you get into egg phase

[keen dome]

Honestly I was finding my cd's coming up about 60% through the rebirth cast

[small vortex]

but if youre trying to 1 phase you hold

[keen dome]

Yeah, def

[tribal blade]

looks like yes you can

[keen dome]

I'll just hold

[small vortex]

but like if you do an extra soak and get in late you send

[steady dune]

for deathstalker, is it a large dps loss to just play it llike trickster and shadow dance at high CP?

[tribal blade]

i knew it, sin sends KB on pull

then DM+KB the egg

[small vortex]

i might try sin next week

[tribal blade]

sin is very good boss dmg

i played it in normal alt raid today

it's super chill

it's much more chill than sub

sub you're sweating filling every gcd of dances

[exotic steeple]

better than sin playstyle

[tribal blade]

sin you can literally stop pressing buttons for multiple gcds and it's fine

[keen dome]

Yeah, def just hold. I still sat very high on DPS until intermission

[tribal blade]

"Put some water on your face and stick something up your asshole, that helped me wake up this morning"- Gingi 2026

[keen dome]

lmao

[fleet acorn]

Yea we Phases hc Boss at 1:09 so im Stuck grey parse xd

[keen dome]

rip

[fleet acorn]

Better hold xd

[keen dome]

fuck it we do dumb things today

[thin sinew]

Anyone know what the override string was for top gear to force 650-700 haste target?

[red flame]

thats wild af

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, birb dead

Naturally the only rogue and no dagger droped

well I can never parse on this boss again

[rotund shard]

can sub have a fist weapon in offhand?

[soft grotto]

no?

[keen dome]

It can, but it should not.

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[rotund shard]

im an outlaw main

so a hero track dagger is better?

[keen dome]

It is mandatory, yes.

[rotund shard]

okeee thanks

[keen dome]

This isn't normalized with slower weapons which causes isuses on anything but a dagger in OH.

[short radish]

max would never say something he didnt mean

[steady dune]

how much of an optimization is it for deathstalker to use dance at low combo points compared to high points immediate sec tec?

[vagrant fulcrum]

shoutout liquid but I swear his stances on raids are MASSIVELY skewed based on if they won the tier or not

giga biased

like bro unironically started glazing gallywix cmon

listen to him talk about races they won vs lost

[keen dome]

Also they're completely detached from the way the game is played by the majority of people. Understandably, but. like.

They're extremely outside the norm and (I think by his own admission?) lack perspective.

[vagrant fulcrum]

idk, if they win suddenly the fight design is amazing

if they lose it was a badly made raid

idk

[keen dome]

Yeah

Gallywix was cool on Heroic, that's my review of it.

[vagrant fulcrum]

my issue is that it's like he is unaware of his reach / who he is and who he's speaking to

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vagrant fulcrum]

people in positions of influence take themselves and the whole thing seriously

[keen dome]

I mean that's a common personality issue for people with a platform and it's very hard to get good perspective on.

They should shitpost more

[vagrant fulcrum]

he never stopped the whole college humor

I guess in a sense he lacks the gravitas that should come with arguably being RL of the best guild

which makes him relatable but in combination with the whole we can't actually say what we think til the race is over

results in this infuriating combo of a guy memeing half the time, implying what is real the other half

and rabid viewers lap it all up

this shit is like if pep guardiola just trolled half the interviews

[keen dome]

I like him when he has other people like Dratnos et al to bounce off. The raid boss ranking viedeo he did for TWW with three perspectives was very good

With RWF guild, very high ranked guild, and median ranked guild perspectives

[vagrant fulcrum]

honestly I think it's time for them to get tournament realm rwf

this tier more than any other I can remember has shown how wide the chasm is

[keen dome]

I don't disagree. It's something I've been surprised Blizz don't do.

[vagrant fulcrum]

these guys will gear two chars above 280 for fuckin vantus

[keen dome]

But the RWF players don't seem to want it.

[vagrant fulcrum]

mythic splits for an entire extra char for vantus

let that sink in

[keen dome]

Yep

[vagrant fulcrum]

I could cope that if my guild spooned me I could be maybe 2-3 ilvls off before

this tier

it's not remotely close

[keen dome]

It would also let them balance stuff better on live realms + make the stupid insane 20+ character shit go away

Well, in theory

[vagrant fulcrum]

I genuinely feel bad for the rwf teams

the arms race for prep has gotten so dumb

[keen dome]

Yep

It does not seem healthy, for themselves or the game or the social structure it builds. Let them just play the dumb game. But I'm not in their shoes or posoiton and nor will I ever be.

So I can only speculate. And pug heroic.

[vagrant fulcrum]

I get there's a tactical and strategic angle to the race gearing and splits wise

but if they spend so much gold on it that they're spending the entire tier selling mounts to make back some of it

idk- it seems too far

mark my words, the further detatched rwf is from the regular game the worse it is for viewership

they need to bite the bullet, give them a tournament realm with loot already and tune it for perfect gear

who tf watches splits

[keen dome]

I also think it's worse for the game as a whole because of the knockon it has.

Including the tuning situation.

[vagrant fulcrum]

what do you mean it's okay for them to leave specs in the dumpster until race is over

xd

[keen dome]

Haha. I more meant boss tuning but yes absolutely.

[vagrant fulcrum]

im being sarcastic, but yeah

the paladins dispel tuning hotfix is clearly rwf tuning

blizz are just shitty liars

[keen dome]

It's a difficult balance and I do feel sorry for Blizz trying to make the right decison.

[vagrant fulcrum]

I'm unsure it is

I think their own principles about tuning make it difficult

[keen dome]

Boss too hard? problem. Boss too easy? problem. How you tune for so many different demographics, some of who are extremely invested and will do incredibly silly stuff for an advantage.

[vagrant fulcrum]

ngl some of the most assinine things I've heard about game design have come from blizz

[keen dome]

Arguably a good answer is: HIRE MORE QA!!! but.

[keen dome]

There's a lotta silly things, yeah.

[vagrant fulcrum]

the very idea of "if your spec is good we don't want to tune it to where it's not still OP"

and vice versa for weaker performers

[keen dome]

I would love if their metrics were more obvious so we could see where they balance from.

[vagrant fulcrum]

like they purposefully want to keep the relative order the same but bring in outliers

have they for one second asked how that feels for people who's classes lost the first roll of the lottery?

ah yes, we know you're more than 3% behind, significantly more

but we will only give you 3% lest you overtake your betters

the unholy revert was the perfect example of this

[keen dome]

Yeah, I dunno. It was very silly.

AoE blind removal, too.

[vagrant fulcrum]

like let them take the fucking nerf

stop trying to enforce this status quo

and be better at tuning

so people aren't bummed out if their op spec is tuned down, since it would be tuned appropriately

[keen dome]

Yeah. It also impacts the mono specs the worst since there isn't any alterantive except Another Character which isn't a fun feeling. Admittedly this exists on hybrids too but like.

At least there are more options.

[vagrant fulcrum]

im too much of a coward to try and main something like spriest

even if it's like 66% broken 33% dogshit 1% balanced

[keen dome]

I'll never not play my Rogue as it's been my main for 16 years and I survived BfA. But it doesn't feel good.

[vagrant fulcrum]

I've rolled off rogue main for the first time since sanctum first week / nyalotha

I've had enough of bitching about it, there's no point waiting for blizz to treat rogue fairly

and this isn't about tuning, it's this fight design

we're secretly a 2 spec fucking class

no one told me

[keen dome]

I cannot because if I swap then the number won't go up.

[short radish]

i call this schrodingers max. every take from him is a meme until it's acutally true, then he was always serious

[vagrant fulcrum]

unironically, I find him and a lot of other influencers generally lack intellectual honesty and humility

the whole sphere actually thrives of right place right time aka luck

gives birth to people who can't actually display intellectual honesty

everything is clipped, how can you admit you never knew, or show real doubt

[keen dome]

I'm gonna become a mythic pug streamer.

[hollow spear]

As long as you're intellectually honest while you're doing it

[keen dome]

That's impossible I'm incapable of being intellectually anything

[final gulch]

average melee player

[dry flame]

That statement is paradoxical. Because you're being intellectually honest

[little tapir]

Sorry guys i’m leaving the rogue life and rerolling hunter

[dry flame]

Yeah we don't need people with common sense and will to be happy around here

[round latch]

easy there tiger

[round latch]

disturbing

[mystic minnow]

Should we sstrike during dance, at full cp, after an apex proc, with 5+ shadow techs to get another apex proc or is that only if we have another supercharge?

[tepid trellis]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[tepid trellis]

if all of these are true, then you strike

[short radish]

fuck paladins boss

get me out of here

[tepid trellis]

imagine not just being benched on it

[short radish]

enjoy brother. be free

[tepid trellis]

couldnt be me

[short radish]

bro i was benched then i somehow talked my RL into taking me

im acutally cooked

[mystic minnow]

Thanks

To the bot

[mystic minnow]

Thank you for summoning the bot

[keen dome]

Oh no

[soft oriole]

If we trying to play myth dragons like a good lil raider, I take it we basically never use CDs on adds. Sectec if it lines up naturally is fair game I guess

[brisk onyx]

in fact, most dance+tech will naturally line up orbs

[steady dune]

does numbing work on the fear mob in dreamrift?

[brisk onyx]

ye

but it's not very meaningful; you just need to cast ks for 8s stun

[final gulch]

"bro i swear the 3% dr is worth it, put me in"

[short radish]

im using vers flasks so i get a 3% DR

[wise fulcrum]

Why it is my CD’s get messed up so badly during bloodlust?

[final gulch]

big brain actually

[final gulch]

how so

secret tec gets a lower cd during lust if that's what you're talking about

[wise fulcrum]

I’m trying to follow the rotation i ser from logs, but somehow I keep coming out of lust with SD and ST 6 seconds opposite one another is that normal?

[still gazelle]

Yup.

Did you get 2 sectec during lust/blades?

[wise fulcrum]

Probably not. I don’t have trinkets

[final gulch]

if you don't have guidon that could be the difference

[wise fulcrum]

I still don’t understand that whole thing

[final gulch]

if you're trying to copy someones opener from a log

[chilly dagger]

How do I compare the top X like that in a fight?

[tribal blade]

you can look at individual logs

on warcraftlogs

[wise fulcrum]

That makes sense. I seem to do pretty well for 5 minutes but if the fight goes longer everything falls apart.

[final gulch]

send me a log if you want, i'm not really sure what you're trying to do but that shouldn't happen

[fair wedge]

do i throw a sectech without dance if i got like 2s left of blades

or js wait till blades over and dance is back up

[night sparrow]

Hey guys, I've found what I should work on

I got inspired

[final gulch]

wait for dance, but having sectec come up before dance is a mistake.

you should always have a dance charge available for sectec

sitting on sectec = bad

so you're wasting a dance somewhere

[night sparrow]

If you have 4p + guidon, send one GCD without dance during blades

perfectly fits

[fossil forge]

Th,, dragon bench

[night sparrow]

last sectec is then sent ~1.5 before your second dance fades

[final gulch]

this is also a mistake.

you want sectec to be one of your first 2 finishers after pressing dance so its supercharged.

[night sparrow]

Robot changed its mind again ?

[jade oasis]

!guidon

[wicked jolt]

Light Company Guidon (haste on use) Optimization:
When? - Only with the Season 1 4-set bonus and Guidon.
How? - During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back.
Why? - This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

[jade oasis]

not with guidon

[night sparrow]

The dance+finisher > filler > sectec is a thing on BL, on 2nd dance

[still stirrup]

Hello, anyone can tell me how i can get combo point on nameplate with plater ?

[night sparrow]

but outside I just checked yeah, spend 1 GCD outside of dance and it fits perfectly

[final gulch]

oh interesting. Is this not in the apl or something? cause my sim doesnt do this

[radiant swift]

is faq u2date?

!guidon

[wicked jolt]

Light Company Guidon (haste on use) Optimization:
When? - Only with the Season 1 4-set bonus and Guidon.
How? - During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back.
Why? - This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

[nova dew]

guys i noticed sometimes in lust i can fit a second sec tech in my blades window but will have to delay my dance, is it worth it to press the sec tech at the end?

similar to the guidon example right above

[hallow mortar]

Its changing all the time 😄

[night sparrow]

During BL you go 2nd dance+finisher > filler > sectec

during blades

[vagrant fossil]

Currently Exile is holding 2nd dance for super charged sectec while running guidons

Basically doing what Abdaroth is saying

[stone vessel]

can I play sub and assa interchangeably or are their gearing too different?

[vagrant fulcrum]

you can play them interchangably

only difference gearwise is sub pref's mastery esp in aoe, sin likes crit more. other than that sub wants to hit haste breakpoints, sin just likes haste generally

mastery heavy sin / crit heavy sub both function fine

[radiant swift]

how much delay wwas there between stec and stecs clones hitting? can u even fit 2 stecs into blades with just guidon and haste values but no lust?

[night sparrow]

clones attack 1 and 1.2s after you cast sectec (someone said here it got shorter but didn't test myself)

By skipping 1 gcd without dance during blades, your last gcd inside blades with dance will be sectec

but it's pretty tight. I usually send my second sectec ~1.5s before 2nd dance fades

[iron whale]

question for sub players: do you genuinely enjoy dungeons

[night sparrow]

yup

[short radish]

depends

do i enjoy dungeons in general? no

but thats not a sub thing

but playing sub in dungeons is kinda chill

idk why people want over complicated rotations

just vibe

[vagrant fulcrum]

kinda, idk - for me sub is more a turn brain off spec

[iron whale]

does the dungeon gameplay loop feel satisfying to you?
to both play and watch?

honestly I can enjoy sub in open world or pvp becuase it's fast paced quick burst action windows, taking your target down quick
but whenever I am in stuff like dungeos or battlegrounds --where SUSTAINED and prolonged fights are required-- it starts feeling like complete ass

[night sparrow]

sometimes you can send a "dry" dance without sectec and it feels kinda forbidden and blasphemous. Gives me thrills

[vagrant fulcrum]

it feels similar to shadowlands sub in keys for me

just bp spam basically

dance on cd

[short radish]

i mean

thats just dungeons

and sustained battles

[vagrant fulcrum]

it felt a bit more involved last expac for me

[short radish]

this isn't a sub problem

this is a you not liking that kind of combat problem

which is okay

[vagrant fulcrum]

refreshing ruptures, changing between evisc and bp depending on target count / prio

[warm marlin]

awful in dungeons

much worse than tww

[vagrant fulcrum]

no cdr on dance changes how it feels a bunch too

[iron whale]

dance>shuriken>bp spam
isn't that obnoxiously boring and tedious though?

it feels so tedious to me...

[night sparrow]

being able to spend 2 dances almost whenever you wanted them between blades felt nice. Now is less flexible

[iron whale]

in tww you had to apply rupture, right?

[vagrant fulcrum]

to clarify my view on sub gameplay, I think the apex optimisation is cool / fun etc but everything else is just zzzzzzzzzzzzz, I rolled off rogue primarily bc I couldn't handle the idea of progging long bosses on this spec

[warm marlin]

yep

much more than that though

[vagrant fulcrum]

and repeatedly blizzard continues to design fights and tune the specs in a way that favours sub

I don't wana be pressing 2 buttons for 80% of the time in raid so I rolled off rogue main for the first time since sl

do I still have love for rogue - yes, but in smaller doses / as an alt

[narrow tendon]

is the 700ish haste recommendation the unbuffed value?

[short radish]

yes

[fallow nimbus]

New sub is a good fundamental that just needs a few pain points looked at

[shadow lance]

Depends what you means with buffs?

[keen dome]

And maybe one additonal button element.

[fallow nimbus]

Namely sectec

[warm marlin]

you should be at 700 with flasks and oils included

[vagrant fulcrum]

this is it, we need something else to play for / play around that brings the spec together

old danse filled the niche, gave us an overarching goal

[keen dome]

Prism button

[warm marlin]

baby steps

[keen dome]

Let us play well and build upt to the MEGA BURST

[warm marlin]

first they need to fix sectec

[keen dome]

But also we have a very good baseline spec imo.

[vagrant fulcrum]

honestly im down for them to just make it an upfront hit, remove the clone element

and let it proc clones

like other finishers

[soft pike]

Hey guys i was wondering is it possible to macro => add shuriken storm to be a mono button ? like if not CP available use builder instead
#showtooltip Black Powder
/cast Coup de grace
/cast Black Powder

/cast Shuriken Storm

[vagrant fulcrum]

bro we're 2 buttons cmon don't make it 1

[soft pike]

it's still too hard for me

[vagrant fulcrum]

also i imagine you'd have to use cast sequence and accept it will sometimes storm at max cp

[warm marlin]

no it will not work

[vagrant fulcrum]

you considered one button

[warm marlin]

the coup bp macro is a weird exception due to how coup procs

usually these things do not work

[vagrant fulcrum]

you just press the cds yourself and use one button to hit dmg spells

[keen dome]

Yeah just make it a visual. Having it be split is always gonna be a problem imo.

[vagrant fulcrum]

shoutout akaari's soul, stealing our dmg on logs since legion

[keen dome]

That point in DF S.. 4? was so funny

[soft pike]

thx for your answer, i will improve my 2 button rotation

[vagrant fulcrum]

I still think there's space for adding nuance / use cases for goremaw's

if it just capped your sht stacks that would be enough

[night sparrow]

give us kingsbane

[lilac stag]

You’re going to send 1cp BP 99% of the time with sht stacks a plenty

Chat did echo go dark just barely beat Liquids best pull? Chat what is going on here?!?

[leaden plover]

just give us tww sub and ill stop dooming

with the bugs

[radiant swift]

what ? skipping gcd and no dance in blades?

[vagrant fulcrum]

ngl tww sub had it's own issues, piano opener was too much ngl

it doesn't need to be as complex as tww sub with old cold blood

[leaden plover]

it wasnt that complex?

just send some buttons

[lavish remnant]

heyo lads. returning player here. Quick question, why is deahtstalker not used at all both pvp and pve?

[lilac stag]

if we had any amount of cleave I don’t think there would be many complaints about sub’s current iteration, especially with blizzards simplification goals.

We still have most players walking in here confused as fuck

[night sparrow]

!guidon

[wicked jolt]

Light Company Guidon (haste on use) Optimization:
When? - Only with the Season 1 4-set bonus and Guidon.
How? - During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back.
Why? - This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

[night sparrow]

the 8 seconds thing can be seen as 1 GCD out of dance

[vagrant fulcrum]

idk, having globals set in stone in the opener the way old sub worked out where 1 mechanic or a mistake bricked ur 2nd sectec where all ur dmg was - was punishing

shit like adds dying before it landed

or if you sent it too early before they spawned

[leaden plover]

i cant stand the shuriken/bp shit, its way too boring

[lilac stag]

Having to prefarm stacks.

[lilac stag]

Then play something else.
Guess what? It’s just a boring.

[vagrant fulcrum]

bro never played pre-df sub im guessing

ever since BP's addition it's been bp spam until the df rework hit

[leaden plover]

lol

[radiant swift]

yeah now i see what u ment - that skip gcd trew me off hella

[vagrant fulcrum]

no offence actually

but it was just bp spam like this

[leaden plover]

i mean yeah, actually cleaving with evis was the fun shit

but its gone

[lilac stag]

people are angry because our raid dps is trash and we got nothing. If tuning was better 99% of the people wouldn’t give a fuck about storm / BP.

Also drop the macro if it’s that boring.

[leaden plover]

:/

[vagrant fulcrum]

I miss it too, but this is the reality we live in now

[night sparrow]

That's what I do and it perfectly fits, within 0.3 seconds. Pretty satisfying

[vagrant fulcrum]

bp is insanely juiced

[leaden plover]

BP took my evis keybind

[lilac stag]

Put nimble back and maybe you use a few more braincells for “priority” rotation or not.

[keen dome]

Give us cannon barrage

[leaden plover]

was there any reason they changed Nimble?

[lilac stag]

yes

[leaden plover]

give us an ability that actually nukes

[night sparrow]

give us 2 charges of sectec

no

[vagrant fulcrum]

sub's weakness was being covered up by nimble

[night sparrow]

4

[lilac stag]

Reason: fuck you rogues

[tepid trellis]

third pull and alleria is in p3 this fight is weird

[leaden plover]

ahh, alright

[vagrant fulcrum]

remember sub struggled on 2 especially and 3 somewhat

nimble let sub not be shit at those target counts and effectively crowded out the other specs

[lilac stag]

ya’ll need to actually play other classes and you will quickly realize rotationally, the grass is just as dormant if not more so over there.

[vagrant fulcrum]

unlike blade flurry from OL it's just always on, sub's dmg profile destroy's outlaws (burst vs flat) and vs sin I would argue nimble was better bc you could control what you cleaved, spatter is at the mercy of the boss positioning / tank

[lilac stag]

outlaw has more buttons, none of which do anything meaningful except blade rush?

[vagrant fulcrum]

so when you get down to it, nimble made sub ok at what it is weakest at while letting it take advantage of its strengths to the detirment of the other specs

that's my headcanon anyway

[lilac stag]

my head cannon is someone said rogue needs an aoe spec

and turned us in fury warriors

Outlaw is supposed to be arms

assa go fuck off and be a melee shadow priest

[vagrant fulcrum]

wouldn't sin be arms? slow historically / execute focused

[lilac stag]

Nah. It’s cleave is shit. Talking dmg profile

outlaw should be our low target cleave spec…

[vagrant fulcrum]

dmg profile wise i guess it depends which iteration of fury we're talking if outlaw or sub match better

[vagrant fulcrum]

https://tenor.com/view/champoy-el-risitas-kek-issou-etu-gif-17837830

I swear people ingame ain't caught onto how bad OL is at low target cleave now

[lilac stag]

I feel very much like TWW s3 fury profile wise, just with more noticeable burst

[vagrant fulcrum]

it's shocking, biggest glow down

[hallow mortar]

there some outlaw master popping on logs still

[vagrant fulcrum]

on 2t?

[lilac stag]

no rogue is popping

[vagrant fulcrum]

i doubt it

on 8 i swear OL is better now than last expac

[lilac stag]

unless a Chinese guild forced them to parse

[vagrant fulcrum]

but on low targets outlaw is just dead in the water without precise

[lilac stag]

it’s a whole lot of cope that we’re good in raid on any fight with any of the 3 specs

we’re mid at best

[karmic harbor]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

The AoE rotation on subtlety starts with 2 targets. This means:

• Shadowstrike with exactly 2 targets.
• Shuriken Storm with 2 or more targets.
• Black Powder with 2 or more targets.
• Hero talents: Keep using Evis for Coup de Grace / "Darkest Night`.

[keen dome]

Is Fine better than Good.

[karmic harbor]

ok so am i striking or storming on 2 targets

on dragons

[vagrant fulcrum]

like I think there's an argument that rogue can be or is 6-7/10 and thats being optimistic

[lilac stag]

I offer decent

[keen dome]

Decent is good.

[vagrant fulcrum]

we still don't die, have good mobility and decent st / prio dmg while aoeing

if we try to

[lilac stag]

sub at least can live shit

[keen dome]

But is Fine good. Is Decent fine? Is fine decent???

[lilac stag]

It’s derogatory in the states.

[vagrant fulcrum]

in reality the issue is moreso raid design and other dps just being better

than rogue in a vacuum being atrocious

[final gulch]

strike when dance is up, storm when dance is down.

[keen dome]

Raid design is a huge part of it. And our lack of a meaningful damage+ raid buff

[vagrant fulcrum]

the raidbuff thing just fills me with contempt

for the entire system / blizzard's dogshit bandaid to force even representation because they're too shit to balance their game

hey guys, we can't balance hunters so now if you dont have one the boss has 3% more hp 🙂

[lilac stag]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vagrant fulcrum]

oh right, you'll want a hunter for each boss on council

fuck outa here with that bullshit

[keen dome]

End bosses having grippable adds. Huge.

[final gulch]

rogue crit raid buff when

[vagrant fulcrum]

this doesn't fix anything cody, when do we stop?

next thing dk needs a raid buff

then evoker needs a more real raidbuff

[final gulch]

nah dk is always strong they're chillin

rogue is the only class in the game where all 3 specs can just be piss

[vagrant fulcrum]

nah bro, if dk is dogshit they just bring blood

and dps dks see no play

[warm marlin]

ye but they also removed its strengths

[vagrant fulcrum]

same shit for other melee with tank specs

[night sparrow]

Uuuuuuh guys, are damage applied the exact moment the dmg yellow text appears ??

[warm marlin]

your burst is middle of the pack

[vagrant fulcrum]

I'd still argue sub's strengths are intact but im deffo willing to hear you out

[hazy breach]

Well yeah, thats because whenever another class has had all their specs be piss they gained a raid buff right afterwards. So rogues are likely to get that too if this continues

[warm marlin]

you dont have flexibility in burst

[hazy breach]

Which strengths are those?

Because it doesnt burst

It doesnt have flexibile cds

It doesnt cleave

[vagrant fulcrum]

can I discuss this in the context of the rogue class?

I fear if I compare sub to something like unholy it's not a discussion

[warm marlin]

assa burst is better

[hazy breach]

I mean the context doesnt really matter

[warm marlin]

outlaw cleave is better

[vagrant fulcrum]

well sub as it stands holds no real niche compared to all dps

[warm marlin]

assa cleave is also better

[night sparrow]

I just tested how Sec Tec works with the clones. Got this timeline by marking (green arrow) when damage are displayed (and both clones animations fit with the damage yellow text) and got this

[chrome palm]

Sub’s niche is “consistent single target”

Which happens to be a common niche to say the least

[final gulch]

which is ironic because that's definitely not the niche they're going for with sub

[chrome palm]

They contradict all of their stated design goals for the spec

[final gulch]

but sadly its what we have atm lol

[night sparrow]

t=0 SecTec first part (physical) , first clone t=0.78, second clone t=0.1.53

[final gulch]

the one thing sub has going for it at the moment is we're strong into damage amps. (along with plenty of other classes)

[warm marlin]

not even really

[final gulch]

in a tier with... one damage amp?

[hazy breach]

In tww ye

Not in midnight

[chrome palm]

I’ve see it be somewhat inconsistent in logs

[alpine wraith]

we get beaten by guardian druid

let that one in

and let it sink

[vagrant fulcrum]

but within the rogue class it has the most on-demand burst, sin's dmg is backloaded and while that normally isn't relevant it deffo tends to be when involving short lived add spawns that are bursted down, other than sub's lead in this specific category (short lived aoe) I would say sub's other strength is at high target counts (outlaw can't compete at all / sin is more sensitive to mob positioning than sub is, albeit the sin vs sub at mass aoe is debatable) - I think atm with how rogue is tuned the scale of sub's strengths is smaller than it aught to be, it still has those strengths over the other specs. I do agree with you sub's burst has deffo taken a hit

thats for you eleem

[final gulch]

sub doesnt really have on demand burst

you have to send every 20 seconds

you can't hold on to it or you're just doing zdps

[vagrant fulcrum]

finally

90s timer is MUCH nicer than 2m

[night sparrow]

alright gotta test this multiple times I guess

[chrome palm]

Yeah rogue specs are very balanced at the moment

Like they’re all quite close

[vagrant fulcrum]

also unreliant on execute like sin is

[quick plume]

If only we had a finisher that they could use to balance low target cleave, perhaps a damage over time effect per combo point spent.

[night sparrow]

but sectec is definitly not 1 and 1.2s aftermath clones attack anymore

[vagrant fulcrum]

finally this is just a guess, I suspect sub might be the most resistant of the three specs to downtime (this might not be true, I have a hunch though)

[chrome palm]

Sometimes get first clone at .6s, sometimes at 1.2s with the second clone at 1.3s

[final gulch]

nah sub is very very good into downtime im gonna be honest

[night sparrow]

that fking weird

[final gulch]

as long as your sectec is on cd downtime is good

[night sparrow]

thx for your datas

[hallow mortar]

now you gotta say one positive thing about sub ryldd

[vagrant fulcrum]

im hesitant to make the point confidently since I haven't simmed it / would need evidence

[warm marlin]

clones are cool

[final gulch]

i mean its just common sense if you think about it

[hallow mortar]

yeah

clones poggers

[final gulch]

its a class with 20 second bursts that does basically no damage in between

so if you're off the boss during that time you don't lose much

[warm marlin]

its also not assa

big positive

[hallow mortar]

biiig

[vagrant fulcrum]

I love how divisive each rogue spec is

[tepid trellis]

p1 alleria is quite funny sometimes

[hallow mortar]

big bum blast

raiding sunday at 4pm is dedication for sure

who you raid with now stealthi

[tepid trellis]

i raid weekends from 12:30 to 5:30

2 day raiding

This is Fine

[alpine wraith]

big

raiding to 5 am is crazy tho kek

[tepid trellis]

its pm

[alpine wraith]

i know

[tepid trellis]

hacha

[final gulch]

that seems kinda chill ngl

[vagrant fulcrum]

bro this has to be the most padded 2 day schedule in history

[hallow mortar]

they had that nice meme pic

[alpine wraith]

seems great tbh

[tepid trellis]

10 hours a week xD

[vagrant fulcrum]

bro casually raiding twice as much as the avg 2day guild

well

slightly less

but ye

[alpine wraith]

they do want progress

[vagrant fulcrum]

I respect it

[alpine wraith]

so the average 2 raiding guild is kinda not it

[final gulch]

yea im gonna be honest i dont think those hours are considered 2day LMAO but it still technically is

[vagrant fulcrum]

idk if i could commit to the same schedule

[alpine wraith]

also most "2" day guilds like mine raid extra days first weeks anyway

so it ends up like 10h or more sometimes

[night sluice]

I miss raiding but working 3-shift now so hard with the normal raid schdules

[warm marlin]

mmm yes

[alpine wraith]

and then on reclear you do 1 day

[hazy breach]

Last i checked it was +0.6 and then +0.7 (so 1.3)

But sometimes it was like 0.55 and 0.75 stuff, just logs being a bit odd and not super exact (same reason why we need margins with our dance)

[night sparrow]

yup I guess it's not as accurate as logs but got this timeline when moving frame by frame and mark (green arrows) the frame damage yellow text appears

I did it only once bc i wasnt expecting clones to attack at random times lol

t=0 SecTec first part (physical) , first clone t=0.78, second clone t=0.1.53, according to when yellow text appears

[hollow spear]

I wouldn't count on damage numbers appearing

[night sparrow]

but idk about this method accuracy lol

yeah fr

[tepid trellis]

for me it fits perfectly as i cant raid weekdays every 2nd week

and i still get to play at around 30-50 WR which is what i want

[forest moss]

!crests

!upgrades

[vagrant fulcrum]

fair, I can raid weekdays thankfully but it ends up being finish work > home > raid within 10m> finish raid > bedge > work 💀

[forest moss]

what is the command for that upgrade sheet 😄

[hallow mortar]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1488547832062415010/drop_fixed.png

[night sparrow]

hey i'm watching perfectogg rn

he does the "old" dance+evis > shadowstrike > sectec thingy on 2nd dance

aren't we supposed to now press 2nd dance to fit inside baldes ?

no lust obv

[steep raven]

There are so many ways you can go about 2nd dance, just pick whichever you like. Dmg difference between them is minimal

[tepid trellis]

doesent matter

[night sparrow]

aya

[tepid trellis]

both are fine

[night sparrow]

alright ty

[hazy breach]

One is just way harder to do

So why bother with something thats harder and might fail, when you can just not

[night sparrow]

does it change something for cleave/aoe scenarios ?

[tepid trellis]

well it wold be more dmg to not delay

if you tryna kill adds

and they die as your sectech comes back for SC it

[warm marlin]

👿

[night sparrow]

okay okay ty

[final gulch]

im pretty sure this is best, its what i do

it gives you the most dance uptime in your blades without sacrificing supercharger sec tec

[hazy breach]

If you can consistently hit dance at the last halfsecond of guidon its as good as lining it up with the end of blades yes

But you are almost surely not doing that unless youve practiced it a lot because its very hard to time

[vagrant fulcrum]

im actually amazed we can't have 1 season of sub without wierd optimisations

[final gulch]

it's also what the sim does without lust opener

so i just copied it im ngl

[hazy breach]

Not for long

[final gulch]

oh rly?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[final gulch]

ahh

[hazy breach]

Because of the deepening bug its very hard to do

if you could just macro dance+guidon then it would be fine

[night sparrow]

I find the 8 last seconds on blades smoother, I see it as sending 1 GCD between 1st and 2nd dance, then 2nd is pressed with storm, evis or bp depending on the context. I have a macro for each

but it really is pressing your last sectec ~1.5s before dance+blades expire

this is tight af

[vagrant fulcrum]

ngl im starting to just think it might just be a use box and not deal with all this angle

[hazy breach]

Theres nothing to deal with

[vagrant fulcrum]

I've yet to get a guidon, this makes it sound like a headache

[hazy breach]

Its not

Literally just dance at the end of blades

instead of back to back

[tepid trellis]

trying to minmax this phase is fun

[vagrant fulcrum]

as in start it so you can sectec with supercharger, thats it?

[karmic harbor]

thoughts on macroing guidon to shadowstrike

[hazy breach]

no

!guidon

[wicked jolt]

Light Company Guidon (haste on use) Optimization:
When? - Only with the Season 1 4-set bonus and Guidon.
How? - During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back.
Why? - This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

[hallow mortar]

so we went from supercharging second sectech into just using dance at last 8sec and casting sectech when avaible?

[vagrant fulcrum]

oh

thats simpler than I was thinking nvm

[median nacelle]

ya i just delay dance for sectech even with blades up at the end of ur cds, i did it of vibes tho, the guidon timing too hard for my boomer brain

[steep raven]

I find this CD sequence very nice and repeatable. Spend all CP after first dance and open 2nd with fan, it always procs apex and you just evis>sectec under lust and without I just send sectec without supercharge.
Nice part is that 2nd dance always comes around ~9s left on blades with Guidon your dance is around 8.7s.

[median nacelle]

i supercharge the 2nd sectech, idk if its better tho lol

[hallow mortar]

so did i, but i was non belieaver from begginging about this 😄 but i bet outcome will be close % but giving you less chance to mess up

[median nacelle]

y

[night sparrow]

this with bl right ?

[steep raven]

Yeah, the screenshot is with BL

[uncut monolith]

Im nub, pls explain me the 14.780 evis

[night sparrow]

yeah with bl it fits pretty nicely

[final gulch]

this is better than dance+evis -> shadowstike -> sectec? you still get 6 seconds of your dance in blades, and you keep the supercharged sectec

[karmic harbor]

perfecto is doing last 8s in opener, and supercharging sectec outside of opener

🥴

[hallow mortar]

even when you look over top logs you will find out that many people have their own way to play it, inclucding having guidon in blades dance sectech macro

[steep raven]

Sectec is 1s on cd, so evis (with apex you get full cp back) into sectec

[night sparrow]

LOL this whole sub opening sequence lore is way deeper than at first glance

[karmic harbor]

fuck it dude just press buttons

[uncut monolith]

So main goal is not sectec in full apex? Ajaj me

[karmic harbor]

probably doesnt even matter

[steep raven]

huh?

[final gulch]

i meannn it matters a little

but i also wouldnt auto assume perfecto is playing perfect

[steep raven]

Without BL

[hallow mortar]

what matter most is not failing the blades

[night sparrow]

that's exactly what I do too @steep raven

[hallow mortar]

he have literary perfect in name, how can not be perfect

[median nacelle]

but hes PERFECTo

[night sparrow]

Like you spend your 2nd sectec like 1.5sec before 2d dance expires right ?

[steep raven]

Yeah, but you said your 2nd dance is different based on what's happening. I'm always forcing 0cp 2nd dance start

[steep raven]

It's always >2s

[night sparrow]

weird I find myself having to press filler or finisher depending on procs

but it tested it with 2 pre supercharges, which affects apex usage (sending shadowstrike when already full cp) or not

intredrestring

I'll do more test

please blizzard add BL and reset CDs NPC near target dummies

I BEG

[plush roost]

Isnt that cause adds spawn like right after

[karmic harbor]

adds spawn during opener

[spice kelp]

How should I best play with feather? Got in an m+ and see it’s a 2 min

[hazy breach]

Probably not even using it unless your other trinket is straight ass

!guidon but the same as this every other blades

[wicked jolt]

Light Company Guidon (haste on use) Optimization:
When? - Only with the Season 1 4-set bonus and Guidon.
How? - During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back.
Why? - This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

[plush roost]

Hmm 15 seconds in, so he wants dance running during adds but sec tec wont be up yet

Makes sense to me

To just hold for next cast

[karmic harbor]

ok but he uses one sectec in blades

sectec is back up and blades + dance is still running and he doesnt use it

[karmic harbor]

nvm maybe i get it

[vale pine]

can't go wrong ^^

[karmic harbor]

i mean, even in intermission perfecto only uses 1 sectec in blades

[fossil forge]

Guys im kinda forever behind

Where can i get the crucible ting

[vagrant fulcrum]

voidstorm, there's a catchup on its upgrade mat from stormarion assault

[fossil forge]

was checking logs most ppl seem to be running guidon gaze/crucible

except for a th,, chinaman chad with gaze and crucible

[coral pier]

guys I wanna ask would some people go Finality over potent powder, and the other way around.

it confuses me of what to go for in dungeons

or what is generally better

[alpine wraith]

who runs a dungeon without potent powder

da fuk

[coral pier]

my friend came over and was like, get rid of potent powder in dungeons. and he also has veiltouched removed

im no expert but that not what I am seeing. his explanation fkd my brain

[hollow spear]

does your friend hate you per chance?

[coral pier]

xD

[coral bear]

Is there anyway to sim ourselfs for PvP?

[coral pier]

so I should remain with Veil touched and potent powder, right ?

[hollow spear]

I am playing TFD and PP

[plush roost]

Watched a vod, maybe his haste is intenitonally low, if he sec tecs in sblades the 2nd clone wouldnt hit

Bet hes playing 587

[night sparrow]

Y'oure right. I've tested this on target dummies = either 2 extra supercharges pre pull and/or 0 ShT stored

[manic salmon]

love pp

[night sparrow]

but is it me or you also have to sometimes press shadowstrike full cp without apex optimization considered so you're full cp 1.5 before dance fades

[lusty acorn]

Guys

They fix the recradt problem? Cost 80

Recraft

How cost now?

[lean rover]

I have seen mixed results when looking at vanguard fight. I thought I read some where I should wait for AA to proc even for AoE BP but looking at cast logs doesn't appear they are holding it and just spamming

[bronze turret]

been running with 0 addons since they fucked with them, which ones would you recommend and arent garbage?

[manic salmon]

hc or m

[fossil forge]

ayije_cdm, plater and elvui

all u need cuh

[manic salmon]

you dont even need those ong

[lean rover]

I was looking just at hc

[manic salmon]

i mean only proc AA for supercharges and the rest is ffa

[fossil forge]

i like my ui organized

[lean rover]

gotcha ty

[fossil forge]

[manic salmon]

but still

dont be surprised if you're 14th on the meters

[fossil forge]

none of these are needed to play the game yes

[manic salmon]

[lean rover]

Lollll yeah

[manic salmon]

i just use cooldown manager centered or w/e and some customizations

been running default blizz ui since prepatch

tracking 3 buttons

[swift tinsel]

Arc UI is arguably the most customizable for CDM/resources, platynator is just easier-to-configure player, Unhalted for player/target frames if you wanna customize those

[fossil forge]

my game looks like b4 thats all i need

[manic salmon]

isnt that just exile's ui

[fossil forge]

arcui

[manic salmon]

i see

[swift tinsel]

Arc was kind of a mess for a while but it’s been very stable for me the last month or so

[manic salmon]

you have all the time in the world to organize ui once you've been benched

[fossil forge]

dragon benchers wya

[swift tinsel]

Heard good things about Ayjie or however you spell it

[manic salmon]

i was in on paladins m prog

[fossil forge]

its pretty pog

[manic salmon]

until they realized dr drops off during the most damaging bits of the fight

and on alleria we're just boss damage merchants so im being sat for an sp

[swift tinsel]

Now that arc isn’t throwing my icons wherever it feels like I’m happy with it again lol

[manic salmon]

btw does any of you guys know why i need to enable my blizz damage meter every single reload

and only on 1 character as well

[cyan perch]

Should I ditch the dance strike macro

[south kernel]

im getting benched on both chimearus and salad bar

cant imgine how it'd be at dragons

c:

[pastel geyser]

does sin out meta us after update in m+

[manic salmon]

who nose

everything is good in m+

[manic salmon]

dragons is pretty decent for sub rogue... if you have dk grips

[dry flame]

in much higher keys, both outlaw and assa outperform Sub, but not any issues under 16s or so

[dry flame]

why on Chimaerus? if you are 2nd soak, pretty decent

i pugged it yesterday

[south kernel]

yea im probs pugging it aswell

[south kernel]

yea we have 1

and he is

[manic salmon]

chimaerus is a loot pinhata

[south kernel]

WELL

special

[manic salmon]

undertuned boss

[south kernel]

this guild isnt some hof just some late CE pals

but they are fun

[dry flame]

and my Dreamrift M group had 0 warlocks btw, we were 2 rogues with Mind-numbing poison

[manic salmon]

i c

well it can get pretty hectic on dragons

[south kernel]

shrug

[manic salmon]

since on normal and hc the balls jump in after being kicked or ccd

[south kernel]

i just saw ppl getting benched on dragons

thought i'd 1 up u guys

by being benched PRE dragons

[manic salmon]

i also didnt do much since we had 2 affliction and 2 dev evokers carpet bombing the adds so

and our 2 target cleave is eh

[dry flame]

just try to pug it if your raid lead is ok with it

[south kernel]

yea

[south kernel]

nah dude im practicing manging my riptide thats the backup plan

[dry flame]

xD

[south kernel]

but memes aside i'll probs give pugs a go

and funny enough i missed last week mythic cos of summer timer change

😔

[uncut socket]

is there anyone who makes raid boss walkthroughs for sub rogue?

[shrewd lantern]

I mean we're kind of fine for dragons

paladins though....

lmfao

[dry flame]

its a rough pug experience, i won't lie to you - biggest thing is finding people who will actually stay for more than 5 pulls

the actual boss is not that big of a deal

you just really need to babysit kicks, because pugs don't kick

[south kernel]

dont remind me

we have 4 warriors

drooling for arms rn

[south kernel]

yea

and m+ aswell

i get declined on pugs at 272 ON A +9

and my 240 resto doesnt

KEKW

[dry flame]

The biggest thing is - don't apply to groups that don't have lust/cr spots

usually that's why ppl decline

[south kernel]

yea thats fair

migth add in note "i buy drums and jumper cables"

[manic salmon]

i was like theres NO WAY im this dogshit at rogue right

check top logs on heroic

150k dps

260 hunter who just got unbanned: sustained 200k

[south kernel]

my everyday im the mirror

[shrewd lantern]

ye no rogue is fr useless on dragons

erm

paladins

[south kernel]

and paladins

and alleria

[shrewd lantern]

dragons is prob one of our better bosses

[manic salmon]

for turbo padding?

[shrewd lantern]

ofc

[manic salmon]

[south kernel]

[manic salmon]

irrelevant damage merchants

[tepid trellis]

im doing just fine on alleria mythic

[south kernel]

oh shit really?

[manic salmon]

ye turbo boss dmg but thats it

[south kernel]

ok thats good news

[manic salmon]

i got benched for sp

[tepid trellis]

top 4

[manic salmon]

7.24% vs 9.16%

[tepid trellis]

its just SP in p1

[manic salmon]

in all phases really

[tepid trellis]

being able to hit all 3 adds at the same time

[manic salmon]

yurr

[tepid trellis]

is quite broken

[bronze turret]

you're not numbah won

[tepid trellis]

when they have dmg amps

[tepid trellis]

sub would need a "slight" buff for that lol

[manic salmon]

p2 also spread cleave

[tepid trellis]

not on mythic really

everything gets gripped into melee

[south kernel]

doesnt sp still cleave the sim and alleria?

[manic salmon]

what about rifty s and the adds

[tepid trellis]

that aint thereo n mythic in p2

[south kernel]

EYO

wait fr?

i havent looked into it since we didnt get that far yet

[tepid trellis]

so the 3 adds that spawn every once in a while

gets yoinked in under the boss

so the only "spread" cleave SP gets in p2 is at the start with the 1 add that spawns on the platform over, but you send people over to 1 tap it anyway so it doesent last long

[upbeat cradle]

Guys, not gonna brag, but my guild didn't bench me for alleria hm. I was utterly useless that fight 😂😂😂

[south kernel]

thats pretty nice to hear

wait timing

i meant what stealthi said

[shrewd lantern]

getting benched on heroic

that happens?

[upbeat cradle]

Yeah we had lots of people and couldn't down her, had to downsize the raid

Casual guild ya know

[tepid trellis]

end of p1 so yeh SP is a bit ehm

"OP"

in that phase

[upbeat cradle]

Got the neck anyways i can chill

[south kernel]

@tepid trellis thank you for the once per tier hope words

[lucid jackal]

Guys they had to buff shadow priest

[south kernel]

i am now less salty

[lucid jackal]

Same way they had to buff Devourer

EMERGENCY

A RANGED DPS APPEARS WORSE THAN A MELEE DPS ON THE RANGED DPS TIER

EMERGENCY 10% BUFF

[pastel geyser]

remember when we got buffed

[south kernel]

lowkey devourer needs like 10% aura buff

its just good players padding the logs

[pastel geyser]

20 actually

[south kernel]

nah 20% is for memes

10% is for ragebait

[shrewd lantern]

its the new spec ofc its gonna be op

[lucid jackal]

It's just those pesky good players making the spec look good

[shrewd lantern]

their apex is named after the expac

[south kernel]

same with sub rogue man

its all stealthi's fault tbh

[lucid jackal]

Sub looking good

[south kernel]

yea dude sub looks sick

with swords tmog

idk about damage tho

i only erp

[swift tinsel]

So good they had to bench it for three fights so everyone else didn’t get too jealous

[shrewd lantern]

idk sword tmog looks weird

like not a rogue

[south kernel]

i havent seen a single rogue benched in trial of style

what are u on

[shrewd lantern]

the sub animations without a dagger are weird

[swift tinsel]

I use small fist weapons with glowing enchant so it looks like I’m punching with shadow magic fists

[south kernel]

idk they fell aight

i guess backstab is whack af

but who casts that

[shrewd lantern]

also half you mfs

use thunderfury

😭

so

[south kernel]

the fistwep idea is fury

i should try that

[swift tinsel]

Hey I only have one mog with TF

[south kernel]

dude this is making me regret not getting the baby tashalash when legion remix dropped

[swift tinsel]

Idr if it’s Mark of the Shadowmoon or Chronos for the enchant

[shrewd lantern]

legion tf?

the good one

[swift tinsel]

Well

I have one with legion tf

And one with vanilla tf

But I never use either

98% of the times it’s purple fists

The 2% is when I forget to scroll to my regular action bar and hit one of my mog keybinds

[old valley]

can someone tell me, how both myth daggers from raid sim far worse than my equipped (crafted + hero track hast/vers) ones?https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ryT4F3CgHjj5czwuhY4WmZ

[timber quiver]

Bought this trink from delve vendor and it was goated to solo ?? boss

[south kernel]

might be talkin outta my ass for this one but im assuming its cos u lost a haste breakpoint

and offhand wep damage doesnt matter anyway

its a stat stick

[modern sentinel]

windows+shift+s

[manic salmon]

we all taking pictures of our monitor thru phone in big 26

[modern sentinel]

[sudden quarry]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[old valley]

ah yeah, looks like it. Another neck (haste/crit) seals the deal and makes the dagger be an upgrade. Gotta tell my lootcouncil about that
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mX4YEQNv9NfkQFMmSXh9uv

thanks

[lusty acorn]

?

[vale osprey]

How low is your haste jeez

Also don't sim the bigger dagger in offhand

[old valley]

y was only to understand the case

[south kernel]

hey now u know

[old valley]

[vale osprey]

But I'm genuinely curious what haste you're running

If even robot is avoiding non-haste pieces

[old valley]

16%

however robot wants the crit/mast neck out of timewaking on hero instead of the haste/crit one from pit

and he wants crit heavy gem + low haste

[manic salmon]

whatever u do just make sure your haste is above 700ish

[vale osprey]

Yeah I mean the robot needs 100-150 less haste than we do to hit all globals in dance

[old valley]

hmm

fair

[vale osprey]

Well, 684+ is fine

[vagrant fulcrum]

how bad is just saying fuck haste even?

[vale osprey]

But if you can get 700+ it's nice

[manic salmon]

very

[vagrant fulcrum]

and giving up the 1 global in dance

Im curious about simmed numbers

[manic salmon]

it wouldnt really be a problem

if coup gcd wasnt 1.2 sec

[vale osprey]

Well the above is a good case

[vagrant fulcrum]

jaw's sim?

[vale osprey]

If the sim is literally not recommending a 4 ilvl dagger upgrade in mainhand because it drops below the threshold

That's how fucked it is

[old valley]

yea that right here makes it understandable though

[vagrant fulcrum]

I think it's important to note that in jaw's sim he is near the breakpoint

what im proposing is saying fuck haste altogether, not from being slightly below the breakpoint to above it

[vale osprey]

Yeah, which would clearly be a lot worse

You say fuck haste all together you also say goodbye to SHT stacks

[swift tinsel]

Eh

You would still get a lot just from shadowcraft and warning signs

[vagrant fulcrum]

ngl I think you're discounting it without testing the hypothesis properly

leme see if I can use jaw's simc input and what I can work with it

[vale osprey]

I mean I don't have to test it, others have

[vagrant fulcrum]

share the link

[woeful wren]

more globals = more clones = more sht = more clones

[vale osprey]

I just listen to the giga brains

[vagrant fulcrum]

and I don't want 1 item switch, I want an actual entire different set

exactly how bad will it be, I wonder

[swift tinsel]

I don’t think people realize how many sht stacks go to waste even outside lust

Because we get absolutely inundated

[vagrant fulcrum]

sht is a case of you have infinite when you're overflowing and you starve outside of dance

the fact the apex can trigger shows how much sht we have

in excess

[hazy breach]

If you do a sim thats only 20 seconds with BL

you can remove the combo points from blades without losing any dps

Since thats roughly the same amount of sht that we are overcapping

[swift tinsel]

Yeah sht is the least of my concerns if abandoning all haste lol

[vale osprey]

Eleem how fucked is it to play 0 haste?

[hazy breach]

You cant really get to 0 haste

[vale osprey]

Mo is tryna cook

Okay like

Sub 100 haste

[hazy breach]

Might aswell get like 200

Thats what the chinese are doing in keys, but they get ultra deep into mastery diminishing returns with secondary pot+puzzle box

So sim doesnt really like it